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Product Thinking

Melissa Perri

Successful product management isn’t just about training the product managers who work side by side with developers everyday to build better products. It’s about taking a step back, approaching the systems within organizations as a whole, and leveling up product leadership to improve these systems. This is the Product Thinking Podcast, where Melissa Perri will connect with industry leading experts in the product management space, AND answer your most pressing questions about everything product. Join us each week to level up your skillset and invest in yourself as a product leader.

  • 45 minutes 23 seconds
    Episode 202: Transforming Product Teams into Investment Partners with Fabrice des Mazery
    Fabrice des Mazery, Chief Product Officer at productROI joins Melissa Perri on this episode of the Product Thinking podcast, to dive into transforming product managers' mindsets from builders to investors. Fabrice draws from his 22 years of experience, including his journey from a law student to a startup founder, and eventually becoming a product leader at major companies like TripAdvisor's TheFork.

    Throughout the discussion, Fabrice shares his perspective on why product managers need to think like investors, focusing on ROI, payback periods, and risk assessment. He emphasizes the importance of moving beyond process frameworks and jargon to speak the language of business, helping stakeholders understand the value and risks of product investments. The conversation covers practical approaches to stakeholder management, building investment forums, and creating balanced product portfolios that consider both risk and return.

    Want to learn how to transform your product organization from process-focused to investment-minded? Tune in to hear Fabrice's practical insights and strategies for becoming a more business-savvy product leader.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 07:39 - The Real Cost of Product Development

    Fabrice emphasizes the importance of understanding the true cost of product development, using the example of a typical European team costing around 1 million euros annually. He stresses that product managers need to think about when they'll see returns on their investments and calculate the actual cost of features beyond just development time. This mindset shift helps teams make better decisions about resource allocation and prioritization.

    • 17:12 - Converting Stakeholders into Co-investors

    Fabrice shares his approach to transforming demanding stakeholders into co-investors by leveraging loss aversion psychology. He explains how to position yourself as a financial advisor who assesses risks and helps stakeholders understand the full investment required, including go-to-market costs. This approach helps create shared accountability and better decision-making processes.

    • 29:14 - Building a Balanced Product Portfolio

    Drawing parallels with VC thinking, Fabrice outlines his framework for building a balanced product portfolio: 60-70% strategic investments aligned with OKRs, some low-hanging fruits for quick wins, and a few high-risk bets that could shape the company's future. He emphasizes the importance of matching investments with team risk tolerance and capabilities to prevent burnout and maintain sustainable growth.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    18 December 2024, 5:00 am
  • 50 minutes 21 seconds
    Episode 201: Enhancing Product Operations in Enterprise Software with Mark Rosenberg and Vivian Phinney
    Mark Rosenberg and Vivian Phinney from Workday join Melissa Perri on this episode of the Product Thinking podcast to dive into product operations. Mark, an experienced leader at Workday, shares his journey in implementing modern product operations within a large-scale organization to meet the financial product needs of over 2,000 customers. He explains how he revamped product ops by establishing transparent prioritization, a well-defined team structure, and a shift toward continuous delivery to streamline complex enterprise products.

    Alongside him, Vivian, Sr. Product Manager of Product Operations for the Financials product line at Workday, with a strong background in data science and DevOps, discusses her transition into product operations and her mission to enhance data-driven visibility for leadership. Together, they reveal some of the frameworks that influence their approach, including Playing to Win and the TSIA’s service model, which help unify cross-functional teams around strategic goals.

    Tune in to learn how Mark and Vivian tackle the challenges of growth and complexity in enterprise product development, and discover insights on creating streamlined processes that empower teams to deliver impactful, customer-centered solutions.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 07:13 - Building Transparency Through Structured Prioritization and Role Definition

    In the discussion about optimizing transparency in prioritization, Mark outlines a new system of scoring projects across the portfolio, helping teams align on Workday’s most crucial goals while preserving team autonomy. He mentions how Vivian played a crucial role in refining roles and responsibilities within the product teams, from inbound and outbound product management to machine learning integration. This included a focus on continuous delivery, allowing code releases to reach testing environments more frequently for immediate feedback. Mark emphasizes that by refining product organization roles, Workday can better anticipate complex needs and scale effectively, building incremental progress that reassures leadership of their alignment with customer needs and business goals.

    • 28:57 - Bridging Central and Division-Specific Product Ops

    Mark and Vivian describe here the symbiotic relationship between central PMO governance and division-specific operational autonomy. Mark highlights the need for central standards for broader policies, release management, and compliance, but underscores the importance of giving divisions the flexibility to adapt these processes to their unique needs. Vivian adds that her product ops role involves customizing central policies for her division and regularly communicating back to central PMO about any proposed changes or potential concerns from her team. This two-way communication enables central PMO to make informed decisions, allowing product ops to tailor centralized frameworks to fit division-specific workflows and protect PMs' time, all while maintaining compliance and reducing risk.

    • 41:45 - Rapid Prototyping for PMs

    Vivian shares her journey from data science to product operations, explaining how her background in data science equips her with the skills to prototype solutions swiftly for PMs. With a strong grasp of pattern recognition and systems analysis, she can create quick, mock solutions utilizing tools such as Tableau or Jupyter notebooks, providing PMs with tangible tools to assess and refine before any major investment in a scaled solution. Her ability to test ideas with data and iterate based on PM feedback allows her to address their pain points practically and quickly. This agility, she notes, has proven invaluable in supporting PMs directly while keeping internal and central stakeholders aligned.
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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    11 December 2024, 5:00 am
  • 44 minutes 24 seconds
    Episode 200: Building a Minimal Lovable Product with Tomer London
    Join Melissa Perri in this episode of the Product Thinking podcast as she sits down with Tomer London, co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Gusto. Forget Minimum Viable Products, at Gusto, Tomer explains that their focus is on creating minimum lovable products. Doing so, in such a complex and rapidly evolving landscape, only serves to emphasize the critical role of user experience. He discusses the importance of maintaining a focus on customer needs, even as the company expands its offerings beyond payroll into benefits and HR solutions.

    Tomer also reveals Gusto’s unique framework for ensuring delightful user experiences, outlining the three key components: solving problems end-to-end, intuitive design, and creating emotional connections with users. He reflects on the value of patience in product development, sharing lessons learned from his journey over the past 12 years.

    Tune in to discover how a commitment to understanding customers and a strategic approach to product development can lead to lasting success in the tech industry.
    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 09:50 - Minimum Lovable Products

    Tomer shares Gusto’s unique approach to MVPs (Minimum Viable Products) by aiming to create a “Minimum Lovable Product” instead. This approach centered on crafting a simplified version of Gusto’s payroll software that not only worked but delighted users by exceeding their expectations. To achieve this, the team launched an early version that covered only essential payroll functions in California but delivered a smooth, user-friendly experience that left a lasting positive impression. For example, they introduced "employee self-service" to allow employees to input sensitive data independently, removing the awkward in-person interactions previously needed. This focus on delivering a lovable product proved effective, leading to strong word-of-mouth referrals and high Net Promoter Scores (NPS). Tomer’s focus on an MLP rather than just an MVP underscored Gusto’s commitment to building a product that customers would passionately endorse, setting the stage for organic growth and sustained customer loyalty.

    • 24:00 - Balancing Growth and Infrastructure

    Tomer discusses the delicate decision-making process Gusto undertakes when balancing growth with building sustainable operational infrastructure. He highlights that as a product or service gains traction, the company must choose between continuing rapid customer acquisition with a growing operational team or pausing to automate and streamline back-end processes. For startups, where growth is an immediate goal, this decision becomes especially challenging. Gusto approaches this by monitoring unit economics, where they focus on both growth and improving efficiency over time. Each quarter, if Gusto’s unit economics haven’t improved alongside growth, they halt further scaling until they optimize processes. Tomer emphasizes the importance of this dual focus for sustainable scaling, illustrating it as a strategy that Gusto has successfully applied across product offerings, such as health insurance and tax credits.
    • 28:57 - Product Lawyers: Transforming Compliance into an Asset

    Tomer shares how Gusto has made compliance a competitive advantage by embedding dedicated product lawyers within certain teams. For products with heavy regulatory needs, such as payroll and financial products, Gusto’s product lawyers work closely with product managers, designers, and engineers to innovate while staying compliant. This proactive approach allows the legal team to co-create solutions rather than act as a “no” force, fostering a collaborative environment where lawyers actively participate in product innovation. By having embedded compliance experts, Gusto turns complex regulatory landscapes into opportunities to deliver secure, innovative products—a capability they have used to create strong relationships with regulatory bodies and navigate challenging compliance requirements effectively.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    4 December 2024, 5:00 am
  • 47 minutes 25 seconds
    Episode 199: The True Cost of AI: Beyond the Hype and Into Reality with Jessica Hall
    Just Eat Takeaway’s Jessica Hall joins Melissa Perri in this episode of the Product Thinking podcast. Chief Product Officer at the food delivery giant, Jessica links up with Melissa to discuss the intricacies of managing a diverse product portfolio across global markets, sharing insights from her journey in navigating the challenges of integrating multiple brands, post-merger and establishing a unified customer experience. She elaborates on the importance of understanding local markets while leveraging a centralized platform to enhance speed and efficiency in product development.
    Jessica also reveals how her team prioritizes customer closeness through innovative programs, allowing product managers to gain firsthand experience of the customer journey.

    She’s not all positive about AI adoption though and is honest about both the potential and the pitfalls, including the often-overlooked costs and the importance of building a sustainable ecosystem around new technologies. She’s also clear on the need to develop diverse teams in order to be able to combat bias in AI solutions and highlights the significance of user transparency in building trust. 

    Tune in to discover how strategic thinking and a customer-first approach can lead to innovative, responsible AI implementations that truly resonate with users.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 07:45 - Creating Customer Closeness Through Direct Engagement

    Jessica passionately advocates for the principle of "customer closeness," highlighting how integral it is for product managers to engage directly with customers. She has initiated a program called "Just Eat Takeaway Meets," which allows team members to immerse themselves in various roles within the company – whether that be delivering food, working in customer service, or experiencing the restaurant environment firsthand. This practice fosters a deeper understanding of the customer's journey and the challenges they face, which can be invaluable for product development.

    • 15:07 - The Hidden Costs of AI Implementation

    Jessica and Melissa get deep into the costs of AI, both the well-known and hidden costs that can appear unwanted during implementation. While many view AI and large language models (LLMs) as cost-cutting tools, the reality can be quite different. She discusses how organizations often overlook the full spectrum of costs associated with implementing AI technologies, such as self-hosting on platforms like AWS, which can be quite expensive. There's also the ongoing expense of maintaining skilled teams who can effectively manage and evolve these technologies to contend with. Jessica points out that businesses need to assess not just the upfront costs but also the long-term financial implications tied to customer acquisition and conversion metrics. This broader understanding helps organizations avoid the pitfalls of adopting AI for the sake of it without a clear strategy, ensuring they approach such implementations with a realistic mindset.

    • 22:02 - The Power of Diverse Teams in AI Development

    Jessica advocates for the importance of diversity in teams working on AI initiatives. She believes that having a variety of perspectives leads to more innovative solutions and a greater understanding of the diverse user base that these technologies serve. She stresses that it's not enough to have a team that simply identifies as diverse; team members must actively engage with different viewpoints and experiences. Jessica encourages her team to seek out customer insights from varied backgrounds, promoting empathy and a deeper understanding of user needs. This inclusivity not only sparks creativity but also drives better product outcomes, ensuring that the solutions developed resonate with a broader audience and address underrepresented issues.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    27 November 2024, 5:00 am
  • 42 minutes 54 seconds
    Episode 198: The Cupcake Approach: Validating Product Concepts with PJ Linarducci
    This time on the Product Thinking Podcast, Melissa Perri is joined by P.J. Linarducci, Chief Product Officer at Thumbtack, to explore the complexities of product leadership in both large and small-scale organizations. P.J. shares insights from his journey, starting with his formative years at Meta and his transition to Thumbtack, where he embraced the role of leading the entire product organization. He delves into the significant mindset shift from being one of many leaders at a large company to owning full responsibility at a smaller, more agile company. P.J. also highlights the challenges of evolving Thumbtack from a marketplace model to a holistic home management platform, requiring new approaches to both product strategy and company culture. Tune in to learn how product managers can influence without authority.
    PJ explains how Thumbtack's product direction shifted from being a simple marketplace to a more comprehensive service aimed at helping homeowners navigate the complexities of managing their homes. He also explores the finicky challenge of balancing innovation (zero-to-one work) with optimizing and growing an established value proposition, sharing his insights on how product leaders can drive strategy and foster collaboration across teams without relying solely on authority.
    Tune in to hear PJ's take on leadership, influence, and how Thumbtack is transforming the home services industry, all while empowering small businesses and enhancing customer experiences.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 07:45 - Cultivating Influence Over Authority

    In discussing leadership dynamics, PJ emphasizes the importance of operating with influence rather than relying solely on authority. He cautions against the dangers of using positional power to drive decisions, as it can stifle open communication and feedback. Instead, he advocates for product managers to act as "organizers in chief," facilitating conversations among team members and synthesizing diverse perspectives into cohesive strategies. By encouraging collaborative decision-making, product managers can foster a culture where ideas are enhanced rather than simply followed, ensuring that the best solutions emerge from the collective input of the team.

    • 24:03 - The Cupcake MVP

    Here, PJ emphasizes the importance of focusing on core customer hypotheses when developing a minimum viable product (MVP). To do so, he brings in a cupcake analogy to illustrate that while an MVP must provide value, it doesn't need to be a complete version of the final product. The cupcake serves as a metaphor for distilling a product idea down to its essential components. PJ believes that product teams should prioritize validating the most critical hypotheses before building features, avoiding the comfort of easily built components like the pedestal for a singing monkey. By tackling the most challenging aspects of the product first, teams can ensure they are addressing essential user needs, rather than simply checking off boxes with features that may not contribute to the product's core value.
    • 26:08 - Understanding User Relationships: Beyond the Immediate Need

    PJ shares with Melissa some insights from his experience at Thumbtack, where they aimed to reduce user friction by fostering a deeper understanding of customers' needs. Instead of only asking for minimal information to facilitate immediate interactions, the team expanded their onboarding process to gather richer data about users' goals and aspirations for their homes. Surprisingly, users responded positively to this approach when they understood the value proposition behind sharing more information. This revelation illustrates that when users see clear benefits, they are willing to provide sensitive data, challenging the common belief that asking for too much information creates friction.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    20 November 2024, 5:00 am
  • 42 minutes 15 seconds
    Episode 197: Aligning Product Development with Business Objectives in Healthcare with BJ Boyle
    In this episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, Melissa Perri sits down with BJ Boyle, Chief Product Officer at PointClickCare, to explore the dynamic landscape of product management in the health tech industry.

    One area in which BJ strikes a chord is how fostering strong relationships with the executive team can drive success, highlighting the need for product managers to connect deeply with their users. With more than two decades worth of experience in the health tech space, BJ has a lot of insights to share from his personal journey, including lessons learned during his transition to the C-suite

    He delves into the unique challenges of managing product strategy in a rapidly evolving industry, emphasizing the importance of aligning product development with market needs and regulatory changes. He also makes clear the importance of balancing domain expertise with product management acumen and engineering understanding, and the value of cross-functional collaboration in building effective product teams. 

    Tune in to explore how PointClickCare is innovating within the healthcare sector and to gain practical advice for navigating the complexities of product management in health tech.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 07:45 - Bridging Product Teams with Real-World Market Insights

    BJ discusses the critical importance of exposing product managers to real-world market scenarios, especially in the complex world of health tech, where user personas like nurses and doctors don't operate in the same way as everyday consumers. He explains that getting product managers out into the field—shadowing nurses or interacting with real users—is key to driving better product outcomes. Through customer advisory boards, partnerships, and the work of a growing UX research team, PointClickCare is ensuring its product managers are connected with the actual environments their products serve. This approach helps them better understand user pain points and needs, even in highly regulated industries like healthcare.
    • 22:15 - Balancing Subject Matter Expertise with Product Skills

    Here, BJ highlights the challenge of balancing domain expertise with product management skills in the healthcare industry. He explains that early in his career, many product managers came from user roles, like nurses or business managers, which resulted in strong domain knowledge but a lack of core product management capabilities. As a solution, BJ discusses the importance of blending product managers from various backgrounds, including those with classical product training and those with domain expertise. This mix allows teams to execute more efficiently and avoid the pitfalls of either too much backlog or not understanding the healthcare space enough to make informed decisions.
    • 39:53 - Embracing AI to Solve Staffing Challenges

    BJ expresses excitement about the potential of AI and technology to transform healthcare, especially in addressing staffing shortages. With AI-driven tools like predictive models and smart documentation, he sees an opportunity to alleviate administrative burdens on healthcare providers, allowing them to focus more on patient care. He discusses how the industry is evolving from simply meeting regulatory requirements to leveraging technology to improve staff efficiency and patient outcomes. He also shares his personal connection to healthcare, which fuels his passion for enhancing care transitions and eliminating outdated practices like relying on fax machines.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    13 November 2024, 5:00 am
  • 45 minutes 2 seconds
    Episode 196: The Affirm Card: Transforming Payment Flexibility with Vishal Kapoor
    In this episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, Vishal Kapoor, Senior Vice President of Product at Affirm, joins Melissa Perri to dive into the intricacies of building and scaling products in the fintech space. Vishal shares his journey through 15+ years of product management. The episode offers deep insight into not just what Affirm is up to, but into the very bones of the culture that drives their product development.

    The conversation covers Affirm's strategic approach to launching its new Affirm card, emphasizing the importance of real-time feedback loops, data-driven decision-making, and prioritizing customer experience. Vishal also highlights how the company uses experimentation platforms to test new features with minimal lift for its merchant partners and explores the art of balancing long-term roadmaps with agile responses to customer needs.

    Melissa and Vishal also get into the important topic of how product managers can cultivate strong cross-functional partnerships, especially with legal and compliance teams, to navigate industry regulations while maintaining innovation. 

    Tune in to learn how Affirm is shaping the future of fintech and get practical advice for building adaptable product strategies in complex industries.
    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 12:18 - Iterative, Fast-Paced Product Culture at Affirm

    In discussing the go-no-go decision-making process, Vishal reveals Affirm’s product culture, which thrives on fast-paced iteration. The company introduced the digital card as a beta product, learned from its success, and evolved the offering into a physical card. This iterative approach ensures constant feedback loops with customers and allows the product to evolve quickly based on real-world data. Vishal stresses the importance of identifying the right problems and empowering teams to run at the solution space with speed and precision.

    • 23:54 - The Go-No-Go Process: Ensuring Readiness for Big Launches

    Here, Vishal describes the meticulous process Affirm follows before launching major products. Returning to the topic of the "go-no-go" meetings, Vishal explains this process in greater detail – these are meetings held before the launch of a major product. In them, all aspects of the product, from quality to customer support readiness, are evaluated against pre-established exit criteria. This process ensures that all necessary conditions are met before launch, even if it requires delays to maintain high customer experience standards.

    • 38:11 - Compliance as a Collaborative Partner, Not a Barrier

    When discussing the challenges of compliance in fintech, Vishal describes how Affirm integrates legal and compliance teams into the product development process. Rather than seeing these functions as roadblocks, Affirm treats them as collaborative partners. This proactive approach ensures that compliance considerations are factored into product decisions from the start, preventing delays and fostering innovation within regulatory boundaries.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    6 November 2024, 5:00 am
  • 49 minutes 58 seconds
    Episode 195: Sparking Joy in the Workplace with Robin Daniels
    Robin Daniels is on the latest episode of the Product Thinking Podcast to discuss how it’s possible to transform working cultures through the careful construction of a supportive community atmosphere. Robin, Chief Business and Product Officer at Zensai, explains to Melissa Perri how his remarkable journey through product management and marketing across leading tech companies like Salesforce and LinkedIn has led him to where he is today. 

    Robin has held leadership positions at renowned tech companies such as Salesforce, LinkedIn, Box, and Matterport and points out the necessity for modern leaders to understand the interconnectedness of product, sales, and marketing to drive effective go-to-market strategies.
    The pair also ponder the question of what sparks joy in a corporate setting, and they discuss how a weekly check-in system that promotes self-reflection among employees is a far more functional system than the outmoded annual performance review method of performance management.

    Robin’s insights serve as a rallying cry for leaders to embrace new ways of thinking about performance management so be sure to tune in now!

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 08:03 - PLG and Removing Friction in Onboarding

    Towards the beginning of the episode, Robin highlights the importance of reducing friction at every step of the customer journey, especially in product-led growth (PLG) models. To illustrate the value of this, he shares the example of launching Salesforce Chatter's freemium model via a Super Bowl ad, where the challenge was to optimize signups for mobile devices with lower capabilities. The takeaway that he gleaned from this was that reducing friction—from awareness to onboarding—ensures a smoother experience for customers and can lead to higher engagement and conversion rates.

    • 17:06 - Learning from Unexpected Use Cases

    Robin also talks about how companies should respond to unexpected use cases that emerge after launching a product. He recounts his experience at Matterport, where releasing a smartphone version of their 3D camera solution led to 80,000 signups in one week. Unexpected users, such as large retail companies, adapted the tool for inventory and brand management, prompting the company to rethink their product vision and unlock further growth. This example illustrates the need to adapt product strategies based on customer feedback and new use cases.
    • 27:50 - Shifting Performance Management Paradigms

    One area of product development that Robin shares a critique of is around the traditional annual performance review. He notes its disconnect from the real-time feedback that today’s workforce desires. To reinforce his ideas in this area, he shares insights from a survey he conducted, revealing that employees actually tend to prefer more frequent performance insights, such as weekly or monthly updates. This approach not only reduces the stress associated with year-end evaluations but also allows for ongoing course corrections and personal development. By leveraging AI to compile achievements from weekly check-ins, Robin’s company aims to simplify the process, making performance evaluations more reflective of an employee's journey and growth throughout the year.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    30 October 2024, 4:00 am
  • 53 minutes 57 seconds
    Episode 194: From Product Leader to CEO with Mercedes Chatfield-Taylor
    Mercedes Chatfield-Taylor, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer at Artico Search, Inc. and a top recruiter specializing in leadership roles for scale-up companies, returns to chat with Melissa Perri on this episode of Product Thinking. Together they discuss the evolving CEO landscape, particularly the increasing importance of collaboration across functions in lean organizations and the growing demand for leaders focused on profitability and sustainability. Mercedes shares insights into the typical paths to becoming a CEO, including from product leadership roles, and the skills needed to transition successfully. 

    As far as Mercedes is concerned, there’s a core set of skills and talents that CPOs can bring to the table as a CEO, but finding that path and applying them is the challenge. The episode explores how focusing on product empathy, deep customer understanding, and cross-functional collaboration will aid aspiring CEOs from product backgrounds. They also touch on the value of aligning with sales, operations, and finance. 

    Want to learn more about what leadership traits will set product leaders up to succeed in the CEO space? Tune in to the full episode now.

    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 02:12 - From Growth At All Costs to an Efficiency Focus for CEOs

    Mercedes highlights a crucial shift in the CEO landscape from a “grow at all costs” mentality to a focus on profitability, sustainability, and scalability. She explains that the most sought-after CEOs today are those who have successfully managed transitions to profitability, while maintaining operational efficiency. These leaders know how to get the most out of lean teams by fostering collaboration across departments like sales, marketing, and engineering. In today’s business environment, it’s no longer enough to grow; CEOs must do more with less and lead cross-functional, highly collaborative teams to thrive.

    • 25:42 - The Importance of Building Strong Relationships with Sales

    Mercedes highlights the importance of a Chief Product Officer (CPO) working closely with the Chief Revenue Officer (CRO) and sales teams to succeed in transitioning to a CEO role. She emphasizes that CPOs need to have a deep understanding of how products are sold and should actively participate in sales processes, including joining sales calls and interacting directly with customers. This hands-on experience with the sales cycle not only provides empathy for the challenges of sales but also makes the transition to CEO much smoother, as it fosters stronger alignment with revenue generation. Mercedes shares an example of a CPO who successfully made this transition by building relationships across the organization, eventually becoming a CEO highly respected by sales teams.

    • 42:14 - CPOs Can Thrive as CEOs in Any Industry

    Mercedes argues that CPOs are natural successors for CEO roles across various industries, not just in SaaS or product-led growth (PLG) companies. Whether in finance, automotive, or real estate, a CPO who understands the product deeply and has strong commercial acumen is well-positioned to take on the CEO role. She cites examples of successful transitions in industries ranging from fintech to automotive, emphasizing that CPOs who work closely with sales, marketing, and finance and who are exposed to board-level discussions can smoothly make the leap to CEO. The key is ensuring they round out their skill set with experiences beyond product management.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    23 October 2024, 4:00 am
  • 43 minutes 57 seconds
    Episode 193: Navigating Hyper-Growth with Sean Solme Kim, Former Head of Product at TikTok and Amazon Prime
    In this episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, host Melissa Perri sits down with Sean Kim, former Head of Product at TikTok and a key figure behind the platform’s innovative features, including the popular Stitch functionality. Sean shares his insights on product management gleaned from his extensive experience at both Amazon and TikTok, emphasizing the importance of customer behavior in guiding product development.

    Sean discusses how his team at Amazon optimized customer retention through data-driven strategies, ultimately increasing Prime subscriptions by honing in on customer benefits and by automating messaging. Transitioning to TikTok, he reveals how he leveraged similar principles to foster a culture of empowerment among product managers, enabling them to own their projects and drive impactful results. He highlights the need for clarity in vision and metrics, ensuring that teams are aligned and able to innovate freely within a structured framework.

    Whether you're a product manager, leader, or simply interested in the tech industry's evolution, this episode offers invaluable lessons on creating meaningful products that resonate with users and sustain growth in an ever-changing landscape.

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    • 18:22 - Data-Driven Approach to Retention and High-Value Actions

    Sean’s success in improving Amazon Prime retention relied on identifying and promoting high-value actions—specific behaviors that correlated strongly with long-term retention. These actions included things like taking advantage of Prime shipping, streaming Prime Video, or using Prime Music within the first few days of membership. Through data analysis and cohort studies, Sean’s team learned that customers who used multiple benefits early in their membership had much higher retention rates.

    His approach was deeply data-driven, utilizing machine learning to analyze customer behaviors and run tests across different markets. The team automated processes to test various hypotheses, such as which benefits to promote to specific demographic groups, and then used those insights to optimize the customer experience. This level of personalization and testing at scale helped Amazon Prime develop a highly effective strategy for improving customer retention through tailored engagement.

    • 27:08 - Empowering Product Managers at TikTok and Amazon

    Sean shared insights into how both Amazon and TikTok foster a sense of ownership among product managers (PMs), which empowers them to make decisions and execute on company goals. At both companies, PMs were responsible for identifying the problems they wanted to solve in alignment with key business objectives like improving retention or daily active users (DAUs). Sean highlighted the autonomy given to PMs, noting that no one dictated specific actions, but rather, PMs were expected to create their own strategies and negotiate the resources needed for execution.

    • 33:31 - Launching TikTok’s Stitch Feature by Recognizing User Behavior

    Sean’s development of the Stitch feature at TikTok provides an example of how great products can emerge from observing user behavior. The feature wasn’t initially part of TikTok’s product roadmap; instead, it came about after noticing that users were downloading videos, adding their reactions via third-party software, and re-uploading them. Recognizing this clunky process, Sean’s team worked on integrating the behavior directly into the app, thus making it much easier for users to create content by stitching their reactions with other videos.

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    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    16 October 2024, 4:00 am
  • 49 minutes 2 seconds
    Episode 192: Brian Fugere’s Blueprint for Merging Teams and Technologies
    In this episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, host Melissa Perri chats with Brian Fugere, Chief Product Officer at Symplr, an expert with decades of experience in healthcare technology and enterprise solutions. Brian shares valuable lessons from his diverse career, offering a behind-the-scenes look at how Symplr approaches innovation in the complex world of healthcare operations and compliance.
    Tune in to hear Brian’s insights on leading product teams in a rapidly evolving industry, and how he balances customer demands with strategic decision-making. He also dives into the importance of simplifying products for enterprise clients, while tackling the unique challenges of navigating regulatory requirements in healthcare.

    Throughout the conversation, Brian emphasizes the need for clear communication, empowering teams to deliver value, and fostering a culture of collaboration that puts both the customer and product at the forefront. 
    Whether you're in healthcare, product management, or navigating leadership challenges in any sector, this episode provides actionable advice to drive meaningful impact through your product strategy.
    You’ll hear us talk about:

    • 15:43 - Balancing Build Versus Buy Decisions

    Brian addresses the decision-making process behind building a product in-house versus acquiring it. He states that time and resources are the two critical factors in this equation. The company evaluates whether acquiring an existing solution would be faster and more cost-effective than building one. Brian is keen to stress that a company must also assess its internal competencies when making this decision. Symplr, for example, is better at buying existing solutions and optimizing them, rather than building something from scratch, as they’ve built teams specifically skilled in acquisitions and improvements.

    • 29:05 - The Role of Subject Matter Expertise vs. Product Expertise in Healthcare

    In healthcare, balancing subject matter expertise with core product management skills is critical. Brian explains that in assembling product teams, he intentionally mixes product experts with subject matter experts to foster cross-learning. As he points out, healthcare is a particularly complex field where deep domain knowledge is crucial for addressing nuanced customer needs, but pure product expertise is still required in order to run processes efficiently. For example, ex-nurses who deeply understand the intricacies of healthcare systems may not have the product management background but are invaluable for shaping the right solutions. Getting that balance of expertise right is vital for such an important field.

    • 37:46 - Balancing "Carrot and Stick" for Customer Transition

    When it comes to migrating customers from older platforms to newer ones, Fugere outlines the complex balancing act involved. Simpler has a dedicated migration team, reflecting how integral this process is to their strategy. Fugere's guidance to product managers is to aim for "sufficient parity" with the older platform to facilitate a smooth transition. However, they also need to offer enticing new features that encourage users to migrate willingly. The key is identifying high-priority pain points from customer feedback and rethinking problematic areas to add real value—like applying AI to automate parts of the scheduling process in their workforce management product.

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    Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | LinkedInIf you enjoyed this episode, please visit:
    Previous guests include: Shruti Patel of US Bank, Steve Wilson of Contrast Security, Bethany Lyons of KAWA Analytics, Tanya Johnson Chief Product Officer at Auror, Tom Eisenmann of Harvard Business School, Stephanie Leue of Doodle, Jason Fried of 37signals, Hubert Palan of Productboard, Blake Samic of Stripe and Uber, Quincy Hunte of Amazon Web Services

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    Product Thinking is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so
    Product Thinking Guest and Audience Podcast Feedback Form
    9 October 2024, 4:00 am
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