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Design systems are the foundation of nearly every piece of software we use. No one has had a greater influence on the philosophy and tactics of building design systems than Brad Frost, author of Atomic Design. After helping countless companies craft design systems, Brad has come to realize that this topic is a nexus of collaboration and conflict.

In our conversation, Brad shared why he thinks design systems are an enduring topic in design teams, the power of design tokens, and how AI is reshaping this space. Plus, Brad filled us in on his new online course on design tokens.

As a special opportunity for Design Better listeners, use code “DESIGNBETTERISAWESOME” at checkout for 20% off Brad’s upcoming design tokens course:

Pre-order design tokens course

Bio

Brad Frost is a design system consultant, front-end developer, speaker, writer, musician, and artist located in beautiful Pittsburgh, PA. He helps teams establish and evolve design systems, establish more collaborative workflows, and create better software together. He is the author of the book Atomic Design, which introduces a methodology to create and maintain effective design systems. In addition to co-hosting the Style Guides Podcast, he has also helped create several tools and resources for web designers, including Pattern Lab, Styleguides.io, Style Guide Guide, This Is Responsive, Death to Bullshit, and more.

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Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Aquatru: We’d like to think our tap water is clean and healthy, but for so many there are impurities and chemicals that can be detrimental to our health. We’re big fans of AquaTru, makers of reverse osmosis filtration systems for your countertop or under sink. Get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier at AquaTru.com with discount code DESIGNBETTER.

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Designing a good security experience is hard. Every time we run into one of those security captchas that requires you to “identify all the motorcycles” in the tiled images, we want to give up and surrender to our robot overlords…or throw our laptop out the window.

Our guest today, Heidi Trost, just published a book called Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems That Are Both Safe and Usable. In the book, Heidi aims to help people who are “tired of hearing things like ‘humans are the weakest link’ and instead want to focus on designing more secure, more resilient systems.”

In our conversation, we spoke with Heidi about the metrics we can use to measure the quality of the security experience, why the login/password recovery is so broken—even for companies that are good at UX design—and some ways to approach user testing for security.

Bio

Heidi Trost is a UX leader who helps cross-disciplinary teams improve the security user experience. With a background in UX research, Heidi does this by helping teams better understand the people they are designing for, as well as the security threats that may impact people and systems negatively. Heidi is also the host of the podcast, Human-Centered Security, where she interviews security experts and people who design for the security user experience.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Thuma: We’re the sort of people who can’t help but get lost in the details of creating a beautiful living space. A well designed home is a sanctuary for creative thinking. For those who revel in crafting a beautiful living space, Thuma offers modern furniture that transforms your home into a sanctuary for creative thinking.

Becoming an irreplaceable designer

By Aarron Walter

The software industry is in a tough contraction phase. Teams are downsizing, and companies are prioritizing efficiency. It’s a stressful time for many.

But it’s also an opportunity—to reflect on your work, your skills, and the unique value you bring as a designer. What could you do to make yourself indispensable to your team?

In my career, I’ve worked with a number of truly irreplaceable designers, and they all share a common trait: they became more than just a designer. They bring additional skills in coding, research, or business that expand their value, make them better cross-team collaborators, and help them solve problems more effectively.

Irreplaceable designers thrive in the blurry space between disciplines. They adapt their language and perspective as they work across teams, earning respect from their peers.

These designers are rare—but they shouldn’t be. AI is making it easier for all of us to bridge the gap between disciplines. While there’s a lot of excitement about how AI can help designers improve their craft, the real opportunity lies in designers learning to build as well.

Continue reading this issue of The Brief on Substack

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Aarron’s friend Trenton Doyle Hancock did something remarkable when they were both in the graduate Painting and Drawing program at the Tyler School of Art in Philadelphia—he had work in the Whitney Biennial. It was a bit like winning an Oscar while in acting school, just not something that ever happens.

Most people are thrown by early success, but not Trenton. He pressed forward in his studio where he crafted epic stories in large scale paintings that later expanded into installations, sculptures, and performance art. His creative process is unique. Piles of collected objects, receipts, food wrappers, etc find their way into his work where their color, texture and attitude unfold as the fabric of Trenton’s universe of heroes, villains, and ancient mysteries.

We spoke with Trenton about his neurodivergent approach to the world, how collecting influences his visual sensibilities, and how chaos becomes precise order in his work. At the time of our recording, Trenton had a large show at the Jewish Museum in New York exploring intersecting themes in his work and that of Philip Guston.

Bio

For nearly two decades, Trenton Doyle Hancock has created a vivid, fantastical universe where autobiographical elements blend seamlessly with references to art history, comics, superheroes, and popular culture. Through paintings, drawings, and expansive installations, Hancock crafts complex narratives exploring themes of good versus evil, infused with personal symbolism and mythology. His work draws stylistically from artists like Hieronymus Bosch, Max Ernst, Henry Darger, Philip Guston, and R. Crumb, integrating text as both narrative driver and visual element. His distinctive storytelling has extended beyond gallery walls into performances, ballet collaborations such as Cult of Color: Call to Color with Ballet Austin, and murals at prominent public spaces including Dallas Cowboys Stadium and Seattle Art Museum’s Olympic Sculpture Park.

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If you were mapping out the most amazing career in industrial design, you might dream of working with George Nelson, Henry Dreyfuss, Steve Jobs, and influential companies like Frog design in the early days. It seems impossible that one person could have such a career, but Dan Harden has done all of this and more.

We spoke with Dan about what he learned from these iconic people and companies, and also about how he started his own design consultancy, Whipsaw, which has gone on to win over 300 awards over 700 patents. Dan also shared what George Nelson was up to when he disappeared into his private bathroom at the end of each workday. It’s not what you think.

Bio

Dan is CEO, Founder, and Principal Designer of Whipsaw, an acclaimed Silicon Valley product design and experience innovation firm that has introduced over 1,000 products to market for leading global companies. A highly influential figure in the design industry, Dan infuses his work with a deep passion and unique perspective shaped by his interests in art, culture, psychology, and technology. Previously, he served as VP and President at Frog, designing notable products for industry icons including Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison, and also held a leading design role at Henry Dreyfuss Associates.

Over his prolific career, Dan has created hundreds of successful products across diverse categories, from baby bottles to supercomputers, winning over 300 prestigious awards, including 41 IDEA Awards, and securing more than 700 patents. His innovative designs have been exhibited at renowned institutions such as the Smithsonian Cooper Hewitt Museum, The Henry Ford Museum, and the Chicago Athenaeum. Recognized by Fast Company as one of the "100 Most Creative People in Business," Dan's visionary contributions have been highlighted extensively in prominent publications including CNN, Fortune, Newsweek, Time, and Wired.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

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Many of the most successful products launched in Silicon Valley lean heavily on behavioral design to increase engagement. Former Design Better guest Nir Eyal talks about this in his books Hooked and Indistractable, and today we have another expert in this field, Kristen Berman, who co-founded Irrational Labs with professor and researcher Dan Ariely in 2013.

We chat with Kristen about how to design products that change behavior, and also about the darker side of behavioral design, which in extreme cases can create addictive products. We also learn how Kristen uses behavioral science on herself, to achieve goals and encourage positive habits.

Bio

Kristen Berman is a leading figure in applied behavioral economics and behavioral product design. In 2013, she co-founded Irrational Labs with Dan Ariely, collaborating with major organizations such as Google, PayPal, Facebook, and Netflix to enhance user health, wealth, and happiness. She was also on the founding team of the behavioral economics group at Google, a collective that supported over 26 teams within the company, and hosted the global behavioral change conference StartupOnomics. In addition, Kristen co-founded the Common Cents Lab at Duke University, where her leadership guided over 50 experiments aimed at improving the financial well-being of tens of thousands of low- to middle-income Americans.

Her expertise has been featured in outlets like The Stanford Social Innovation Review, TechCrunch, and Scientific American. As a co-author of the workbooks series Hacking Human Nature for Good alongside Dan Ariely, Kristen has provided practical guidance on changing behavior that is widely used by prominent companies—Google, Intuit, Netflix, Fidelity, and Lending Club among them—for their business strategies and product design.

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This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to http://thuma.co/designbetter.

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Words are worth a thousand pictures

by Eli Woolery

How does Sir Jony Ive, the famed former head of design at Apple, start every project? If, like me, you guessed by sketching, you’d be wrong. I was surprised to learn when he visited the design capstone class I co-teach at Stanford that he starts all projects by writing.

But Jony gave our class a powerful example of why writing is a far more versatile conceptual tool than sketching. He spoke of working with a landscape designer on his property in the UK. The designer could have shared drawings, but instead he wrote about the night garden, and how the flagstones would radiate both the heat from the warmth of the day and the fragrance of the flowers along the pathway.

“I write because I realized at art school that you can only draw a small percentage of the attributes of an object. You know, if I were to draw this [holds up a glass], you would understand only 20 percent of its nature. You would have no sense of its weight or material or temperature. You would have no sense of the way that it reacted to its environment. Writing helps me frame the problem. A lot of mistakes are made when you frame a problem, because you could already be dismissing 60 percent, 70 percent of the potential ideas.”

—Jony Ive, in an interview with McKinsey Quarterly

Free from the constraints that even the best draftsperson would face, Jony and his team can conceptualize not only the look of products, but the touch, weight, and even the emotions they trigger.

Perhaps it shouldn’t surprise us that good design can start with writing. Good writers are adept at taking an iterative approach to creativity. They create memorable characters through empathy. Their characters evolve, and they often reimagine old stories with new, innovative approaches.

“The difference between writers and non-writers is that writers go back again and again. My old classics teacher used to say that the people who succeeded in classics were the people with the highest tolerance for failure. I think the same is true for writers.”—Madeline Miller, author of Circe and The Song of Achilles

Madeline Miller is a great example of an author who uses all of these techniques in her writing. Her book Circe takes the titular character who was a peripheral—if important—part of Homer’s Odyssey, and reimagines her as the protagonist. Her empathetic approach to the enchantress-in-exile reframes the story in a way that makes us feel a human connection to the not-quite-human character.

Professional writers also aren’t afraid to make mistakes as they go. Many have a bias toward action, creating the rough outlines (parallel to a prototype) of the work before going back to refine it.

“My husband is a master carpenter. When I asked him if master carpenters make fewer mistakes than regular carpenters, he said no–but they recognize [the mistakes] more quickly. It’s the same for writers as they gain experience.”

—Madeline Miller, author of Circe and The Song of Achilles

Former guests on the show, David Sedaris and Dan Pink, shared wisdom about writing that can teach us plenty about becoming better designers.

Continue reading this issue of The Brief on Substack

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Graphic novels are experiencing something of a renaissance recently. As the medium has gained popularity, notable thinkers like Sapiens author Yuval Noah Harari and the late John Lewis have brought their stories to life beautifully in graphic novel form. Gareth Hinds has played a big role in shaping the medium. His graphic novel adaptations of The Iliad, The Odyssey, Macbeth, Beowulf, and King Lear have brought new readers and new perspectives to these classic tales. Count us in that group of his readers looking at these ancient stories differently.

We speak with Gareth about his creative and editorial workflow, and how he turns challenging works from Shakespeare, Homer, and others into a graphic novel. We also talk about how his background in video game design influences his work, and how he chooses stories that lend themselves well to his style of illustration.

Bio

Gareth Hinds is the creator of critically-acclaimed graphic novels based on literary classics, including Beowulf (which Publisher’s Weekly called a “mixed-media gem”), King Lear (which Booklist named one of the top 10 graphic novels for teens), The Merchant of Venice (which Kirkus called “the standard that all others will strive to meet” for Shakespeare adaptation), The Odyssey (which garnered four starred reviews and a spot on ten “best of 2010” lists), Romeo and Juliet (which Kirkus called “spellbinding”), and Macbeth (which the New York Times called “stellar” and “a remarkably faithful rendering”). Gareth is a recipient of the Boston Public Library’s “Literary Lights for Children” award. His books can be found in bookstores and English classrooms across the country, and his illustrations have appeared in such diverse venues as the Society of Illustrators, the New York Historical Society, and over a dozen published video games.

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

Upgrade to paid

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

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Every month, our premium subscribers receive our newsletter The Brief , which assembles wisdom gleaned from interviews with creative thinkers. It’s a chance to go deeper into salient topics like creative collaboration, the ephemeral nature of designing software, and how other creative people in music and film solve problems.

But inboxes are busy places—an issue might slip past you. And everyone learns differently. Some of us learn best by listening. We’re always looking for new ways to support your learning. :)

We’re now creating narrated versions of The Brief released as a podcast in your feed.

Want to check it out? We’re releasing the first episode from our most recent issue of The Brief, What do many creative people have in common? ADHD.

We hope this new feature helps you continue your educational journey into design and creativity.

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One core strength that good designers cultivate is the ability to navigate ambiguity. Our guest today, Kevin Bethune, returns to the show to discuss his new book, Nonlinear: Navigating Design with Curiosity and Conviction, which emphasizes that to achieve real innovation, teams must be willing to venture into the “proverbial forest of ambiguity.”

We talked to Kevin about how we can bring non-linear thinking into our very linear workflows to shake them up to embrace ambiguity and exploration. Kevin also shared why he thinks multidisciplinary thinking is essential to innovation and creativity.

Buy the book

Bio

Kevin Bethune is a multidisciplinary design and innovation executive, entrepreneur, best-selling author, and keynote speaker based in Redondo Beach, California. His career spans mechanical engineering within nuclear power, product creation at Nike, and advanced design studies at ArtCenter, culminating in a pioneering path for servant leadership in design and innovation. As the founder of dreams • design + life—a “think tank” integrating strategic design, industrial design, and brand strategy—Kevin helps organizations uncover human-centric, holistic opportunities that bridge physical, digital, and service-oriented experiences. Over the years, he has led large-scale creative teams, guiding 30+ direct contributors and influencing global groups of more than 70 in shaping design functional excellence and innovation best practices.

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This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Thuma: We’re the sort of people who can’t help but get lost in the details of creating a beautiful living space. A well designed home is a sanctuary for creative thinking. For those who revel in crafting a beautiful living space, Thuma offers modern furniture that transforms your home into a sanctuary for creative thinking.

Their timelessly designed beds, nightstands, dressers, and shelving are built from solid wood using Japanese joinery techniques for a silent, stable foundation, balancing form, craftsmanship, and functionality. With clean lines, subtle curves, and a minimalist style available in four signature finishes—and an upgradeable headboard—the Thuma Bed collection assembles in just about 5 minutes with a single hand-tightened screw, ensuring a durable piece backed by a lifetime warranty.

To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to http://thuma.co/designbetter.

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If you're interested in sponsoring the show, please contact us at: sponsors@thecuriositydepartment.com

If you'd like to submit a guest idea, please contact us at: contact@thecuriositydepartment.co

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We live in an era where it’s easy to get overwhelmed by the pace of new technology. As designers, creatives, and technologists, we have a wealth of tools at our disposal that people in our roles only a decade ago could only have dreamed of. Yet it can be daunting to know where to focus our efforts: what new skills and workflows should we be learning to stay relevant?

Scott Belsky, co-founder of Behance and Chief Strategy Officer at Adobe, calls the rapid spread of generative AI tools a “Cambrian Explosion,” referring to an evolutionary event 500 million years ago when many new animal species appeared in a relatively short time. We talk to Scott about how we might navigate this explosion, and why it might make sense to move toward a more “boundaryless” workflow. We also talk with Scott about his book The Messy Middle, and how to manage emotional turbulence during challenging parts of our career.

Bio

Scott Belsky is a builder, author, and investor who currently serves as Adobe’s Chief Strategy Officer and Executive Vice President of Design & Emerging Products. As a co-founder of Behance—a platform now used by over 50 million creatives—Scott has been instrumental in shaping Adobe’s Creative Cloud, pioneering mobile and service strategies, and later advising innovative companies like Pinterest, Uber, and Airtable. He also champions creative empowerment through initiatives such as 99U and Action Method, and his thought leadership shines in his international bestsellers, Making Ideas Happen and The Messy Middle, as well as his widely read Implications newsletter.

***

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This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books, as well as our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

Upgrade to paid

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Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Thuma: We’re the sort of people who can’t help but get lost in the details of creating a beautiful living space. A well designed home is a sanctuary for creative thinking. For those who revel in crafting a beautiful living space, Thuma offers modern furniture that transforms your home into a sanctuary for creative thinking.

Their timelessly designed beds, nightstands, dressers, and shelving are built from solid wood using Japanese joinery techniques for a silent, stable foundation, balancing form, craftsmanship, and functionality. With clean lines, subtle curves, and a minimalist style available in four signature finishes—and an upgradeable headboard—the Thuma Bed collection assembles in just about 5 minutes with a single hand-tightened screw, ensuring a durable piece backed by a lifetime warranty.

To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to http://thuma.co/designbetter.