My friend Candice Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns. Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns: You know yourself better than I know you. I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly. Your sense of safety is important to me. Your identity is real and should be acknowledged. I want to teach everyone around me to respect you. Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive. I can hear you talking and I am really listening. Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me. I would prefer if you kept being honest with me. I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust. Candice talks about her journey to encourage extended family to also use preferred pronouns—a journey that has been very difficult at times and required Candice to extend skills of grace, listening, and bridge building. Candice talks about how it is a journey worth undertaking. Candice talks about her podcast “No Empty Chairs: For Moms Whose Kids Don’t Come to Church,” becoming a life coach, and her role in and the purpose of the Facebook group “Bridges: Support for Latter-day Saint Parents of Adult Children”. If you are looking for a real-world story of better supporting the queer people in your life, please listen to Candice’s podcast and connect with her resources. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Your work is so needed in our community! Links: Candice’s web page: candiceclarkcoaching.com/ Candice’s FB Page: www.facebook.com/candiceclarkcoaching Candice’s Podcast: candiceclarkcoaching.com/?page_id=78 Bridges FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720 FB Group for LDS Parents with LGBTQ children: www.facebook.com/groups/WalkWithYouLDSParentsOfLGBTQ

My friends Emilie Call (married mother of 4) and Ashlie Sanders (married mother of 3) join us to talk about their podcast they founded, and co-host called “That’s Church Podcast” which builds bridges of understanding to other faiths (and people of no faith) and to better support people within our own faith (such as LGBTQ folks). They also share their personal stories navigating complicated topics in our faith and how their work has helped them stay in our Church. Emilie and Ashlie talk about the next event at Compass Gallery in Provo, Utah on March 8th(National Women’s Day)—speakers and purpose-an awesome event that I encourage you to attend. Also, Ashlie talks about the IG account (@the_nuanced_mormon) to explore diverse spiritual journeys. If you are looking for two thoughtful voices in our faith community doing much needed bridge-building work, please listen to this episode and connect with their podcast and consider attending their event on March 8th Thank you, Emilie and Ashlie, for being on the podcast. You two give me hope. Links : That’s Church Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-church/id1711856369 That’s Church IG account: @thatschurchpodcast A That’s Church Experience - Divine Feminine & Women Empowerment tickets: tinyurl.com/empower2025

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road. Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her. Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church. Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early release missionaries share their stories. If you are an early release missionary or working to better support someone walking this road, please listed to Liberty’s story and connect with her Instagram. Thank you, Liberty, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are awesome. Links: Liberty’s Instagram: @finding.the.purpose

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married. Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety. In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement of Jesus Christ and how reading the Book of Mormon helped him. Hayden also talks about why his wife and him started a podcast, why he is talking about this at church (including his high council talks)—all because of his desire to help others. If you are working to end porn use (or other unwanted coping behaviors like overeating, drugs/alcohol, caffeine, excessive social media use, etc) please listen to Hayden’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to help others, Hayden’s story will help you better help others. Thank you, Hayden, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story. Respect. You are helping so many! Links: Hayden and his wife Dylan‘s podcast called: This Is Livin’ : podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-livin/id1770163904 Sara Brewer: centerforovercoming.com/ Other Richard Ostler solving porn podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/solving-porn-use Richard Ostler chapter on solving porn: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0

My friends Clint and Melinda Mueller (live in Litchfield Park, Arizona; BYU grads; forensic engineering business owners) join us to share their story of having two gay sons (four sons total, sons #2 and #3 are gay—age 29 and 26 respectively—both returned missionaries). Clint talks about the long road (started in 2016) when their first son came out—and all the changed perspective needed to better support their sons (going from “not on my watch will I have a gay son” to loving/supporting them). Clint talks about deeply spiritual experiences (including talking with other gay people in his life) that helped him do better. Melinda talks about personal revelation including “your job is to love them; my job is to save them.” Clint and Melinda talk about the shock of when their second son came out following his mission—and how they were better equipped to love and support him. Clint also shares what they are doing in their LDS circle to help local leaders/members better support LGBTQ members. If you are an LDS parent new to the road of having a queer child (or be better prepared for this possibility), or a local leader, please listen to the Mueller’s story. It is a powerful story of growth, pain, honest communication, keeping the family circle together, and creating a beautiful family love story. Thank you, Clint and Melinda, for being on the podcast and giving us better tools/gospel insights to support the LGBTQ people in our lives. Links: Clint/Melinda Mueller’s e-mail: [email protected]

My friends Dr. Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, and Liz Macdonald join us to talk about the rebranding of the powerful podcast “Questions From The Closet” to “All Out in the Open.” They share how the expanded scope includes once-a-month hosts including Iese Wilson focusing on international queer Latter-day Saints, Clare Dalton on how the scriptures provide principles to help queer Latter-day Saints, Liz Macdonald and Michael Soto talking about community building, and Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird talking about how to be more open with ourselves and others. They also talk about the Gather/All Arizona conference in Mesa (March 29, 2025), the Gatherings monthly scripture curriculum, the annual Gather Conference in Provo (June 26-28, 2025), and a new conference called Belong (a conference for queer youth and youth allies—born out of the successful Gather track at the 2024 conference). If you want to feel hope in the LDS/LGBTQ space, please listen to this episode and (more importantly) listen to “All Out in the Open” podcast. Ben, Clare, and Liz are doing such great work and represent the hundreds of people in this space working to “expand the borders” of Zion where more feel loved, needed, and true belonging. Their principled approach gives us all better ideas on what we can do in our circle of influence to better support queer Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Ben, Clare, Liz for being on the podcast and all your great work! Links: All Out in the Open Podcast: alloutintheopen.org/ Gather curriculum: gather-conference.com/gatherings Gather Arizona March 29, 2025: www.allarizona.org/conferences (registration not live yet) Belong Youth Conference June 26-28, 2025: www.belongyouthconference.org to receive registration info as it becomes available. Follow @belongyouthconf on Instagram. Gather June 26-28, 2025: www.gather-conference.com/ (registration not live yet)

My friend Paul Peterson (married father of 3, lives in Arkansas, Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy from Valdosta State University, owns/runs his own practice) joins us to talk about how we can know we are whole/perfect now and we are always loved by God—and tools to absolutely accept this. Paul talks about how this helps us to “become”—not from a feeling of shame/brokenness—but from a position of strength, fully understanding our identity as a beloved child of God. Paul brings his personal experience, academic training, theological understanding, and professional experience to make this a reality in our lives. I was deeply moved (and calmed) listening to Paul. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and read Paul’s book—I believe it will help you and give you more tools to help others. Thank you, Paul, for being on the podcast and your much needed work in our community. It is good people like you that give me hope. Links: Paul’s website: www.paulwpeterson.com/ Paul’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DN5TY2C4

My friend Oakley Roberts (from Payson Utah, RM from Liberia Africa) joins us to share his story. Oakley talks about knowing he was different since age 12, his high school life (including his mantra “if they wanted to be in my life, they were welcome”) and coming out a bisexual over the phone to his sister while on his mission (later coming out as gay to his mother). Oakley talks about the curse/punishment he felt from God for being gay—and the pain/shame of that initial conclusion. Oakley talks about reaching out to people for help and how coming out and being authentic improved his feelings about himself. Oakley talks about the powerful spiritual experience in the canyon east of Cedar City while in college with the personal revelation that Oakley’s sexual orientation (like all of Oakley’s attributes) are divine in nature and Oakley is created as intended—a 180 degree shift from this earlier feelings about being cursed. Oakley talks about his visit with his Bishop (super helpful) and his supportive mother (“I trust you Oakley” and “whoever you bring home, I will accept them”). I am so impressed with Oakley—his spiritual maturity, his emotionally resilience, and his deep acceptance of who he is—all at age 21. You have a great life ahead of you Oakley and you will continue to give hope to others and help them feel God’s love. Honored to have you on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Gather/Lift and Love: www.liftandlove.org/ FB group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Oakley’s Instagram: @_oakleyroberts

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Kyle Dunshee (age 30, married father with new baby, suicide survivor) joins us to share his journey with mental health. Kyle starts with his journey with severe OCD/anxiety which led to a suicide attempt at age 10. Kyle talks about his great parents getting him help—including being institutionalized (helpful experience). Kyle also talks about self-harm and gives insights on why people engage in this behavior and how it is able to put this behind him. Kyle talks a Book of Mormon scripture story that gave him hope and his decision to serve a mission—but the painful/angry experience when he was denied this opportunity. Kyle talks about his pain, anger at the institutional Church, and the deeply spiritual experience in an empty movie theatre watching an R rated movie—a powerful experience where he felt the love of God and a desire to become more active in the Church. Kyle talks about why he decided to resubmit his mission papers and his call to serve in Portland Oregon. Kyle talks about how his mental health is on ongoing part of his life—and why it is (at times) a beautiful struggle. Kyle’s story is in his new book called “At the Bottom of Bountiful” (see show notes). I was so impressed with Kyle’s courage and vulnerability to share his story. It is a powerful story that helps others walking a similar road with mental health issues and those with difficult church experiences who want to stay in the church. I encourage everyone to listen to Kyle’s podcast and read his book so we have more insights to help ourselves and our friends/family working with mental health issues. You are a good man, Kyle. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Kyle’s book on Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DQ8Z9RHH Grandpa Thomas Rogers Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/deseretnews/name/thomas-rogers-obituary?id=55427103 Kyra Dunshee Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-293-krista-mortensen-and-kyra-dunshee-sisters-when-your-child-leaves-the-church

My friend long-time friend Dusty Bee (late 30s, RM, father of two sons/divorced, was in a same-sex marriage/excommunicated/now divorced, DJ/business owner, lives in Idaho) joins us to share his unique and powerful story. Dusty talks about knowing he was gay/different around 10, serving a mission (asking God to make him straight), marrying a women (while closeted), marrying to a man (married about 6 years—a marriage Dusty doesn’t regret and into a family he loves), being excommunicated (very painful experience), and then his decision (with a powerful spiritual experience on the Rome temple grounds) to get rebaptized (working with the same Stake President and their reconciliation after the difficult excommunication). Yes, Dusty is still gay—and talks about how he accepts/love himself, why he believes in the Church, how we can better support LGBTQ members, and the character of our Heavenly Parents—including Their deep love for ALL Their children. Dusty is not asking couples in same-sex marriages to follow his path—but rather the importance of helping LGBTQ members to write their own story (without agenda) and walking with them—leaving all judgement to our Savior. Dusty is one of the finest people I know. He has done a great job walking a nearly impossible road and his story helps other queer Latter-day Saints to find hope/perspective in their future—and parents/allies/local church leaders looking for insights on how to better love, understand, and support. I’m honored to have Dusty on the podcast. I encourage everyone to listen to and share his story and we work to expand the borders of Zion so more feel welcome and a deep feeling of belonging—as I believe we are a better people with our LGBTQ members with us. Links: Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Episode 797: Dr. Daniel Parkinson, Mentor to LDS Parents with LGBTQ Kids, New Book by Richard Ostler