My friend and mentor Pastor Stan Mitchell (familiar with and friend to Latter-day Saints) joins us to share his story of his changed heart/perspective about LGBTQ people that occurred during his ministry at Grace Point Church in Nashville. Stan (who attended Latter-day Saint services as a youth causing him to reframe his view of Jesus from vengeful to loving) talks about teachings of Jesus to love/support/accept LGBTQ folks—accept/validate their pain—and be open to what we can do better to support these good folks. Stan talks about his work with Christian parents who deeply love their queer kids, their Christian beliefs, and want what is best for their kids. He offers suggestions on how to navigate this road. Stan also talks directly to our queer friends to help them feel more love, acceptance, and hope for their future—and a plea for those considering suicide to stay. Stan brings his strong theological insights, soft heart, and 1000’s of visits with people walking this road to help others. Thank you, Stan, for your work in many faith traditions to help us better love and support our queer friends. You work has helped me. Thank you for being on the podcast. Links: Stan Mitchell’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stan.mitchell.58

My friend Ben Higinbotham (mid-30s, BYU grad, non-binary, gay, active LDS, RM, they/he/she) joins us to share their story of self-acceptance and personal growth. Ben talks about their lifelong journey on this road of being gay and not feeling like they fit as a girl—including personal revelation, coming out to others, their strong relationship with God and finding peace/hope in their life. Ben also talks about shame—and how rather than curing them of their queerness, God is curing them of their shame. They talk about using the new name of Ben—including the backstory of the importance of that name. Ben talks about how being gay and/or non-binary is not a sin—but transitioning (even social transitioning) removes some church privileges, which can be difficult. Ben talks about how they are navigating that road and still participating in the Church. Ben loves Jesus and is trying to be more like Him—they strongly believe that it is possible to be both queer and Christian. Ben shares their love and musical testimony of Jesus through their arrangement of the hymn Amazing Grace. Thank you, Ben, for being on the podcast. I was so impressed with your spiritual maturity, deep acceptance, and love for all people. I loved hearing some of the personal revelation you are receiving included how much God loves all his children. Thank you for the courage to share your story and help us better create Zion. You are awesome and our church community is better with you part of it. Links where people can find connection with LGBTQ+ people and allies: https://www.liftandlove.org https://www.liftandlove.org/gatherings

My friend Dr Tyler Johnson (former YSA Bishop, oncologist, clinical assistant professor at Stanford University) joins us to talk about his new book published by Deseret Book called “When Church is Hard”. Tyler talks about how different testimony types (“I know”, “I believe”, “I hope”, etc) actually are a good thing—helps us extend the tent of Zion and bring more people to Christ. He also talks about how not every Latter-day Saint will have a “I know” testimony and how that person shouldn’t feel like a second-class citizen—but a valued/needed member of our community. In the second part of the book, Tyler also talks about supporting those (and us) when God is silent. In the third part of the book, Tyler shares better ministering skills to support those with church generated pain or the pain they see in others. He talks about what do we do (in ourselves and helping others) when our “hearts breaks at Church”. Tyler talks about specific examples and the importance of validating pain—and how pain is a good thing as it should create attention to a problem—which is exactly what our body is signaling with physical pain. If you are looking for a book to help you (or better help others) navigating difficult church experiences, please read Tyler’s book. It is a book I wish I had read decades ago before becoming a parent or having church leadership callings. Thank you, Tyler, for your great work in our community. You are someone who I deeply admire and respect. Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/6020541.html Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1639931821 Episode 591: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-589-tyler-johnson-navigating-complicated-church-topics-extended-the-tent-of-zion

*Trigger warning: This episode mentions suicide. If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts and are in need of support, please reach out for help by calling 988. We care and we want you to be safe.* My friend, Colette Dalton (she/her) is a queer licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist. Colette was my guest on an episode in 2021, so she catches us up on her journey in healing from trauma and living with depression and describes her more recent experiences with finding what she terms as "Queer Joy." Colette also talks about her work with clients at Hearten House in downtown Salt Lake City; she specializes in experiential therapy, reuniting the mind and body, which is particularly important for many queer individuals with LDS backgrounds, due to high rates of internalized homophobia. Colette also meets with clients virtually throughout Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. Colette teaches us about a fantastic, free, resource for queer individuals and allies that she has recently developed, called The Queer Joy Summit (Nov 17-19). The Queer Joy Summit brings together over 20 speakers over 3 days to talk about how they experience queer joy and how you can experience more queer joy in your life, as well. Details for how you can register for the summit are included below. I am grateful to Colette for her courage, and for the important role that her experience and expertise bring to many who are in need of support and kindness at vulnerable times in their lives. Links: Queer Joy Summit: queerjoysummit.com Hearten House: heartenhouse.com Trevor Project and the study they did about queer kids not thinking they'll make it to 35: www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/perceived-life-expectancy-and-life-purpose-in-lgbtq-young-people/ Dr. Brené Brown on Joy: It's Terrifying | SuperSoul Sunday | Oprah Winfrey Network: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKV0BWSPfOw The power of vulnerability | Brené Brown | TED: www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o

My friend Laurie Lee Hall (convert, former Director of LDS Temple Design and Construction, former Stake President, in her early 60s) joins us to share her story. Laurie Lee talks about her lifelong journey to manage her gender dysphoria and eventually “live as the woman I am”. Laurie Lee talks about the impossible choices she faced in this journey as a successful 20-year Church employee (the last part in the physical facilities department—one of her last projects being the expanded Provo MTC) and serving as a Stake President. That led to Laurie Lee’s Church employment ending and losing her Church membership. Laurie Lee talks about continuing (for a time) to participate in a new ward and being accepted in Relief Society—and the joy/belonging she felt. She talks about “living as Laurie Lee and the peace it brings me”, the new August 2024 handbook changes restricting transgender members, concerns about a “surveillance culture”—all of which are covered (and more) in her new book. Laurie Lee also talks about two meetings she and I shared around 2016/17 when I was trying to become a better ally by listening to my LGBTQ friends. Thank you, Laurie Lee, for being on the podcast, writing your book, bringing beauty to Latter-day Saint buildings/temples, choosing to stay alive, continuing to make the world a better place, and doing the best you can with impossible choices. This world is a better place because of Laurie Lee Hall. If you are looking to better understand/support our transgender friends, please listen to this episode and read her book. Thank you, Laurie Lee, for being on the podcast. You are awesome! Links: Amazon (kindle and book): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DHY2YJ6C Signature Books: https://www.signaturebooks.com/books/p/dictates-of-conscience

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Hunter Howell (Bio Medical Science Major, New Mexico/Farmington RM, Suicide Survivor) joins us to share his story. Hunter talks about his pre-mission years navigating his same-sex attraction, completing a mission (including falling in love with a companion), and being a BYU-Idaho student. At BYU-Idaho, Hunter faced the most difficult chapter in his life recognizing he wasn’t going to be able to marry a woman—leading to a suicide attempt—which led to a therapist that gave tools for Hunter to find hope in his future. Hunter talks about his deep relationship with his Heavenly Father and Savior and their love of/support for Hunter. Hunter gives honest advice to queer Latter-day Saints considering a mission and/or attending BYU-Idaho. If you are looking for hope, please listen to Hunter story. Thank you, Hunter, for being on the podcast, for how you are, and for your ability to bless/help others. This world is a better place with you part of it. Links: Hunter’s e-mail: [email protected] The Trevor Project: www.thetrevorproject.org Facebook Group to Minister to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

My friend Heather Prinz (lives in Fayetteville Arkansas, Speech Pathologist, Sexual Assault Survivor: Dr. Broadbent OBGYN lawsuit) bravely joins us to share her story. Heather talks about her sexual assault under the guise of medical care, discovering she was one of hundreds of other victims, and her journey through trauma and healing. Heather talks about how she felt at the time of the assault, her inability to accept what had happened, how the assault negatively impacted her life over the following 15 years, and her road (with the help of great therapy) to find healing. Heather also talks about her decision to come out publicly after 2 years as an anonymous 'Jane Doe' in the ongoing civil lawsuit against Dr. Broadbent and the community of support this group of survivors developed throughout their attempts to prevent this from happening to others. If you are a victim of sexual abuse or want better tools to help others, please listen to Heather’s podcast. Thank you, Heather, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story—which will help so many. Links: @thatsnothealthcare - survivors' advocacy Instagram @heather.prinz - individual Instagram

My friend David Smurthwaite (married father of 4, gender expansive, active Latter-day Saints) joins us to share ideas on ministering to anyone struggling with the updated Church transgender policies. David starts with a brief recap of his own story (including talking to his Bishop at age 11 and opening up to his wife Marisa about 8 years ago). David then talks about the new policies—and what we can do to bear, mourn, and comfort each other given these difficult circumstances. David then answers questions (Resources/support groups, Should I come out?, Honoring personal revelation, etc). If you want to gain insight into someone (or yourself) experiencing a gender journey, please listen to David’s story and perspective. He offers powerful insights thanks to a deep understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and a long view of being on the road to discovering divine identity. Thank you, David, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for all your contributions to our community. You give me hope and better tools to understand, love and support my transgender/non-binary friends. Links: David’s e-mail: [email protected] David’s Instagram: @davidsmurthwaite_writer David’s Instagram post on handbook changes: www.instagram.com/p/C_R83ooxkNE/ Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Episode 254: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-254-david-smurthwaite-married-father-of-4-former-bishop-gender-dysphoria Life and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Monica Phillps on Facebook: www.facebook.com/monica.phillips.3597

My friend Dr. Kristine Coons (active Latter-day Saint, Internal Medicine Physician, came out to her wife in 2014, was on episode 699) joins us to share her journey/insights. Kristine brings a unique and needed perspective with her medical expertise in understanding gender dysphoria and the nuance of defining gender/biological sex—along with her own experience being transgender. Kristine also talks about how the new transgender policies negatively impact her (and many other transgender Latter-day Saints) causing her to feel demeaned and a second-class citizen—something Kristine doesn’t feel in the other circles where Kristine serves. If you are transgender—of are looking for insights to better support/mourn with our transgender friends—our hope is Kristine’s story will help you. Thank you, Kristine, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Kristine’s PowerPoint: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kg25yhqw5e0gqh7zf95bd/Listen-Learn-and-Love-Podcast-9-19-2024-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=z7ekmdp759yfwot2ui35h199f&dl=0 Kristine’s “Variations of Sexual Development Doc”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/p1m6f6tby85xdqx7nrdbc/Variations-of-Sexual-Development-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=nnqsadgn3fl5fefiqj57wus29&dl=0 Kristine’s “History of Biological Sex Definitions”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1rbi4brjroeo3qejhwrny/History-of-Biologic-Sex-Definitions-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=ritt2zucgp3ek7uwwl458ckq9&dl=0 Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Kristine’s prior podcast (699): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-699-kristine-coons-transgender-and-her-wife/id1347971725?i=1000628774947

Guest Host: Tonya Miller Exponent II has played an essential role in creating a shared, safe space for women and gender minorities connected to the Church to explore and express the impacts of "isms" in Church culture. It began in the Boston area as a quarterly newspaper in 1974 by friends who had met and worked on projects together in the Relief Society, and today it continues to provide that space, both physically and digitally. For example, when Exponent II was first created, the idea that someone might adhere to gospel principles and Church policies AND feminism was incredibly radical. Katie and Heather have undertaken a Herculean task in creating this commemoration of Exponent II's founding in their new book, Fifty Years of Exponent II, that includes the history of the organization and an anthology of selected works from the quarterly publication and blog. Heather and Katie describe the rich content of this compilation and share examples from their book that shed light on some of the challenges inherent in the task. They also talk about the ongoing need for Latter-Day Saints have to safe community both within and outside of the Church, noting the importance of not just feminism, but the impacts that ableism, ageism, racism, anti-queer sentiment, and ethnocentricity can have on members and their loved ones. I am grateful to Katie and Heather for their dedication to such a great cause and for their willingness to share their stories with us on this podcast. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at [email protected]). Links: Fifty Years of Exponent II: www.amazon.com/Fifty-Years-Exponent-Katie-Ludlow/dp/1560854774 Exponent II: https://exponentii.org/ Exponent II Magazine on Instagram: @exponentII_mag Exponent II Blog on Instagram: @exponentii_blog Katie Rich on Instagram: @KatieLudlowRich

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Z Blanchard, (lived in Utah, Costa Rica, San Diego and Ecuador; Argentina RM; attending UVU in Utah; age 21) joins us to share his story as a bisexual member of the Church of Jesus Christ out of his heartfelt desire to give hope to others. Z (youngest of four siblings, with three older sisters) begins by giving insights into what it was like to grow up with the cognitive dissonance of being attracted to men while remaining very active in the church of Jesus Christ. While he loved (and continues to love) the gospel, he gives insights into struggles such as the constant pressure to come out to his loved ones, internalized homophobia, and self-hate, as he threw himself into efforts to be free from these stressors. Z talks about trying to make it work with a girl and feeling totally broken as the reality of his sexual orientation started to kick-in. This confusion, along with the outset of the global pandemic, led him to a place of hopelessness with no light at the end of the tunnel. He shares about the things that helped him stay alive both physically and spiritually during these difficult years (including great family experiences) where church/the proclamation on the family/some conference talks became nearly unbearable. He also talks about hitting an extremely low point which led him to seek therapy from Jill Freestone, a close friend and life coach, who gave Z tools and insights to find hope. One of these insights was into the Divine Nature and character of Heavenly Mother, a doctrine that caused him to observe, “if there is a more expansive understanding of God, then maybe there is a more expansive understanding of me”. Z talks about why he didn’t leave the church, but rather decided to serve a mission after coming out because of his testimony of loving Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ’s power to heal. He shares some painful and beautiful experiences while serving in Argentina (including coming out to a few companions—with one companion giving him a powerful affirming Christmas gift—a story you won’t want to miss). Z is one of the most spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually mature persons I’ve met. He understands the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how that gives hope to others. Z’s story is more than the story of a queer Latter-Day Saint, it is a story of human resilience and the influence God can and will have on our lives. If you are queer or straight, his story will help you find more peace and hope in your life. Please listen and share this podcast with others, it could be exactly what another person is needing right now. Thank you, Z, for being on the podcast. The world is a better place with you in it. You have a great life ahead of you full of giving hope to others. Links: Z’s YouTube coming out video (English): https://youtu.be/xr87N0AvbHc?si=cxRqkiCxpQ-6vETz Z’s YouTube coming out video (Spanish): https://youtu.be/LrJI5CV1Ato?si=ya_Q6EztmB0Ecoub Z’s Instagram: @tegaaaaaan Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143