We are celebrating 300 episodes of the Flying Free podcast by looking at where this podcast started, what has been accomplished since then, and where we are heading in the future!
 
Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

In today’s episode, I answer a listener's question about co-parenting with an abusive ex and challenge the idea of "working together" with abusers. You’ll learn the importance of shifting the focus away from the abuser and toward personal healing and growth.

Key Takeaways:

• Stop investing emotional energy into trying to "fix" or "work with" an abusive person. It's a cycle that leads nowhere.
• Redefine what it means to be a "father"—biological ties do not make someone a healthy or safe parent.
• Avoid gaslighting your children by pretending their experiences with their abusive parent are fun or normal.
• It is impossible to thrive while working with someone who thrives on control and abuse. The focus should be on healing yourself and your children.

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Episodes mentioned with Bob Hamp: Episode 1, Episode 76, Episode 277, and Episode 297.
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

In this episode, Natalie interviews guest Anne Blythe, a leader in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community. Together, they discuss the profound impact of sharing survivor stories, how lived experience can be just as valuable as formal expertise, and the damaging effects of sexual coercion in abusive relationships. Anne also sheds light on critical issues like manipulation, trauma, and reclaiming safety.

Some Key Takeaways: 

• Sexual Coercion and Abuse: Anne emphasizes how sexual coercion is often a hidden form of abuse within relationships. Many women face manipulation and pressure regarding sexual behaviors, which is often downplayed or ignored by their abusers, adding layers of trauma.
• Removing Shame from the Healing Process: Survivors often feel isolated or ashamed of their experiences, but through sharing their stories and seeking help, they can shed this burden.
• Prioritizing Safety Over Confrontation: Directly confronting an abuser often leads to further manipulation. Instead, focusing on safety and gathering support is a crucial first step in the healing process.

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Listen to Anne’s podcast, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, on your favorite podcast listening app. 
• Read Anne’s book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama.
• Check out Anne’s Meditation, Living Free, and Message workshops.
• Connect with Anne on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. 
• If you’ve found porn on your husband’s phone, you can get a simple PDF HERE about what to do next.
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

Anne is the Producer & Host of The BTR.ORG podcast and the author of Trauma Mama Husband Drama. She’s also the creator of: The BTR.ORG Meditation, Living Free, and Message Workshops. After years of attempting to stop her husband’s pornography use and “anger issues,” she turned her attention to establishing emotional and psychological safety for herself and her three children. As she learns in real-time, Anne shares her journey to help women safely and effectively separate themselves from their husbands’ (or exes’) emotional & psychological abuse and sexual coercion in order to establish peace in their homes. You can sign up to get group sessions with the coaches at BTR.ORG HERE.

In today’s episode, I have a powerful and insightful discussion with guest speaker Bob Hamp as part of a live Q&A we did with members of the Flying Free Kaleidoscope about the complexities of emotions, particularly anger, and the challenges faced by those in emotionally abusive relationships. Here’s a summary of the key points and concepts:

1. Understanding Emotions:

• Emotions as Drivers: Emotions are energy in motion that propel us forward and should be embraced rather than repressed.
• Indicators of Inner States: Emotions serve as indicators (like a dashboard) that reveal our internal states and beliefs, particularly anger, which signals that a boundary has been crossed.
• Anger as a Response: Anger can be a protective response to repeated boundary violations, masking deeper emotions such as pain or fear.

2. The Need for Validation:

• Craving Validation: After experiencing emotional abuse, individuals often seek external validation to affirm their feelings and experiences due to a distorted self-image created by the abuser.
• Living in a House of Mirrors: Emotional abusers create an environment where one’s self-perception is constantly challenged and distorted, leading to confusion and self-doubt.
• Research on Healing: Studies show that validation from others can help regulate the nervous system and facilitate healing for trauma survivors.

3. Mutual Abuse vs. Conflictual Enmeshment:

• Mutual Abuse: This term suggests that both parties are equally culpable, but in abusive dynamics, there’s often a power differential where one partner exerts control over the other.
• Conflictual Enmeshment: This involves two people blaming each other for their issues without one holding more power over the other. The dynamics can feel like mutual blame, but there's usually a more dominant party in emotionally abusive situations.

4. Setting Boundaries:

• Empowerment Through Boundaries: Establishing personal boundaries is essential. Boundaries involve controlling one’s response to others rather than attempting to control others' behaviors.
• Responses to Boundaries: Abusers often react negatively to boundaries, framing them as controlling behaviors. Recognizing this is crucial in identifying an abusive dynamic.

5. Independence and Self-Validation:

• Moving Towards Independence: The journey from dependence to independence is critical for emotional and relational health. The goal is to validate oneself rather than rely on others for validation.
• Finding Self-Worth: Ultimately, the most empowering position is to own your self-worth, which frees you from the need for external validation and allows for healthier relationships.

6. Practical Steps Forward:

• Healing Courses: Engaging in resources like courses focused on healing relationships with oneself can aid in developing self-validation and independence. We have a course called “Healing Your Relationship with Yourself” inside of the Flying Free Kaleidoscope. Join today to get access to that course as well as many others! 

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Connect with Bob on Facebook and Twitter, and take a look at his program, Think Differently Academy.
• Check out Bob’s “Think Differently” book series.
• Listen to more episodes of the Flying Free Podcast that we’ve done with Bob: Episode 1, Episode 76, and  Episode 277, 
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

Bob Hamp is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist as well as an author and teacher. His life message has always been about freedom and healing. He and his wife, Polly, are the founders of Think Differently Academy, an online community for training, personal growth and healing. He and Polly have six kids and six grandkids with one more on the way.

Understanding and Overcoming Emotional Abuse: A Journey to Personal Freedom

In this episode of the Flying Free Podcast, Natalie reflects on the power of transformation and shares profound insights from both the Flying Free Kaleidoscope community and the personal stories of women who are seeking freedom from abusive relationships. With heartfelt testimonials and a listener’s deeply personal question about navigating a difficult separation, this episode delves into the complexities of emotional abuse and the path to self-discovery.

The Power of Transformation: Real-Life Experiences from the Flying Free Kaleidoscope

Natalie begins the episode by reading reviews from members of the Flying Free Kaleidoscope community—a safe space for Christian women seeking healing and growth. These women share how the program has impacted their lives in profound ways:

• "Two months in this program has changed my life. My relationship with myself and the way I parent my children has changed dramatically. I'm addicted to the coaching sessions."
• "Your programs are incredible. I talk about them every chance I get. They have literally changed my life. Hugs."
• "There are so many resources in this program. It is mind-blowing."
• "I am blown away. I joined a few months ago, and every course I take, I listen to three to five times. Each lesson gets better and better."

These testimonials emphasize the depth of support available to women within the Flying Free Kaleidoscope program. Natalie likens the community to a “kaleidoscope of butterflies,” a metaphor representing the beauty and strength of women transforming their minds—and ultimately their lives—through support, coaching, and faith.

A Listener’s Question: Navigating Separation and Emotional Abuse

Natalie addresses a question from a listener who is struggling to understand her husband's childlike behavior and lack of engagement during their separation. The listener shares her journey of enduring seventeen years of anxiety, feeling inadequate in her marriage, and facing a spouse who refuses to communicate or take responsibility.

The listener asks three key questions:

1. Why is my husband choosing childlike behavior and ignoring me and our separation?
2. How do I work with him to move forward?
3. I want insight into this type of man.

The Alligator Metaphor: Focusing on What You Can Control

In response, Natalie draws a vivid analogy, comparing an abusive relationship to falling into a swamp with alligators. She explains that focusing on why the alligator behaves the way it does is futile. Instead, the priority should be on getting out of the swamp. Similarly, understanding the abuser’s mindset isn’t the key to healing. Rather, the focus should be on what you can control—your own decisions, actions, and growth.

“We can’t control other people. Our challenge is not to understand the psyche of an abuser. Our challenge is to gain self-awareness and understanding around our own psyche and what is driving our beliefs and behaviors. This is where 100% of our opportunity lies.”

Reframing the Questions

Instead of asking why her husband behaves in a certain way, Natalie encourages the listener to shift her focus. She offers three thought-provoking reframes for the listener’s questions:

1. Why is my husband choosing childlike behavior?
   • Reframe: Why am I choosing to revolve my life around this other adult, meanwhile ignoring my own sanity and health?
2. How do I work with him to move forward?
   • Reframe: How do I work with myself to move forward? You can’t force someone else to change, but you can focus on your own path to healing and freedom.
3. I want insight into this type of man.
   • Reframe: I want insight into my own mind and beliefs so that I can evolve into the next version of who I was created to be.

Natalie emphasizes that healing comes from within, not from trying to understand or change the abuser. She explains how many women are conditioned to prioritize the needs and feelings of others, often at their own expense. But true freedom comes when you take control of your own life, set boundaries, and focus on your own growth.

The Mission of Flying Free: Transforming Minds to Transform Lives

Natalie ends the episode by reminding listeners of the mission of Flying Free—to help Christian women find freedom, truth, and love in their lives. The Flying Free Kaleidoscope community offers resources, coaching, and support to help women on their journey toward healing and wholeness.

For those who are ready to take the next step, Natalie invites listeners to join the Flying Free Kaleidoscope community, where they’ll find a network of support, guidance, and hope.

Join the Flying Free Kaleidoscope Community

If you’re looking for a place to belong and grow, the Flying Free Kaleidoscope community might be the support system you’ve been searching for. Visit joinflyingfree.com to learn more about how you can start your journey toward healing today.

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 

Aimee Byrd, a well-loved guest of the Flying Free Podcast, is back again to tell us the story behind her newest book, The Hope in Our Scars. It’s not a pretty present of a book, wrapped in neat paper and topped with a bow. It’s real, it’s raw, and it’s full of beauty, and that’s exactly what this conversation is as well. 

Aimee went through some unfathomable spiritual abuse and says, “That's what led me to write The Hope in Our Scars because I did find Christ intimately present with me through this.” We hope you’ll be able to find hope and Christ in this conversation, too. 

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• You can find Aimee on X, Threads, and Facebook. 
• Go listen to my first interview with Aimee, “We Need a Sexual Reformation in the Church.” 
• I highly encourage you to check out Aimee's incredible books, including The Hope in Our Scars, The Sexual Reformation, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Why Can’t We Be Friends?, No Little Women, Theological Fitness, and Housewife Theologian.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

Aimee Byrd is a former coffee cafe owner who now uses her conversational barista skills as a writer and speaker. Her latest books blend contemplative thought with biblical theology. Aimee is the author of several books including The Hope in Our Scars, The Sexual Reformation, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Why Can’t We Be Friends?, No Little Women, Theological Fitness, and Housewife Theologian. Looking for the beauty and wonder in theology—learning about God—and spiritual formation, Aimee writes about the things she hoped to talk about in church. In this quest, she’s found many others who’ve been disillusioned by the church but are still looking for what’s real, beautiful, true, and good. It’s often not where we think it is.

Have you ever gotten a toxic text from a friend, a family member—maybe your spouse? The women in our Flying Free Kaleidoscope have the opportunity to post the toxic texts they receive so that we can help them process, and I came across one I just couldn’t wrap my brain around, it was so incredibly full of toxicity and falsities. 

So today’s episode is breaking down this particular abusive text that one of my members received, and honestly, it can actually be quite interesting once you get the hang of it. Come parse through this toxic texter's false beliefs and see how I would respond if I were the one getting this text. 

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Read one of my favorite books, Forgiveness After Trauma, and listen in on an interview I did with the author, Susannah Griffith. 
• Check out the article I mentioned by Christy Hemphill, “How Things Go Wrong with Metaphorical Reasoning in Ephesians 5.”
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my private online education community designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this community.
• Flying Higher is our educational community for divorced Christian women. 

Have you ever wondered, “Am I really being emotionally abused? Is it considered emotional abuse if my spouse is lying to me? Gaslighting me? Ignoring me? What are the kinds of mistreatments we can actually call ABUSE? 

My friend, this is a question I’ve been answering for other women for almost a decade now. This is my my life’s work. My passion. Let me help guide you just a little bit in today’s episode as we do a deep-dive on emotional abuse: what it is, how it destroys lives, and what we can do about it.

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote a book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

Many years ago I paid $150 an hour for counseling. If you do the math, that comes down to $25 for every ten minutes of her time. Yes. I was paying $25 for someone else to listen to me for ten minutes. 

I would tell her what new horrors I had experienced the week before, and then she would validate and empathize with me, and then I would go home.

That’s expensive. $25 is a lot of money to pay for someone to listen to your troubles. And was it moving the dial in my life? Was it worth that $25 for those ten minutes that I was purchasing to change my life, to get me moving forward? Was I getting unstuck? Was I learning new things? 

After a year of seeing her for an hour every other week, because I couldn't afford to go every single week, I had spent $3,600 and I was still in the same place that I had been a year before. 

The only difference is that I had $3,600 less in my bank account. 

Can anyone else relate to this madness?

I recently had a conversation with a group of Christian women about something that didn’t cost them $75 or $100 or $150 an hour but that has changed the entire trajectory of their lives.

Today you get to listen in on that conversation.

I hated that I wasted so much money on something that not only got me nowhere but that set me back in my healing. I determined to help women in my shoes in a different way, and it would only cost them $29. Not for a few minutes. But for 438,000 minutes (that’s one entire month) of having five coaches, including me, not only listen to you, but actually HELP you in your specific life with your specific circumstances. 

438,000 minutes of access to powerful classes that will educate, train, and equip you to take the next best step in your life. 

438,000 minutes of daily support whenever you need it to help you transform your thinking and change your life. 

Would that be worth it to you? I asked these women to share with you today why they think it’s more than worth it. Why it’s so worth it that they have been members for years. 

One said, “I actually still go to counseling and my counseling is 100% covered by insurance. So for me, my counseling is free, but I still feel like Flying Free coaching helps me more than my counseling sessions do.”

I asked her why. Listen to find out! 

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Wanna hear more about the money I wasted on trying to get help? Read my newest book, All the Scary Little Gods. It’s a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

Books are like buses. When you open up a book, it will take you to a new place. It will take you on a new adventure. Sometimes the book will take you on a journey of the imagination to a new country or a science fiction place. 

Sometimes the book will take you on a path of learning you've never explored before, and that path will lead you down other paths, and then those paths will lead you down even more paths, and you will be able to meander through information that delights your mind and opens you up to new ideas and ways of looking at the world. 

Books shape the way we think, feel, and show up in the world. They can even influence who we hang out with, who we agree or disagree with, and how we approach those agreements or disagreements. 

Books are important. They have just as much influence over us as people do because they are written by people with bias, people with their own programming, people with their own lived experience or lack thereof. 

Charlie Jones once wrote “Remember, you are the same today as you will be in five years, except for two things: the people you meet and the books you read. Choose both carefully.”

When it comes to books about deconstruction, I’ve found some to be life-giving and hope-saturated, and I’ve found others to be depressing and hopeless. In today’s episode, I talk about some of the books that have changed my life and my relationship with God. 

For the better! 

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Books on books on books: 

1. Gaslighted by God: Reconstructing a Disillusioned Faith by Tiffany Yecke Brooks (and the podcast interview I did with her)
2. Holy Ghosted: Spiritual Anxiety and Religious Trauma and the Language of Abuse by Tiffany Yecke Brooks (and the podcast interview I did with her)
3. All the Scary Little Gods by Yours Truly
4. Faith Beyond Doubt: Why Your Beliefs Stopped Working and What to Do About It by Brian McLaren
5. A Spiritual Evolution by John McMurray
6. Love Wins by Rob Bell
7. Searching for Sunday: Loving, Leaving, and Finding the Church - a memoir by the late Rachel Held Evans
8. The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More Than Our "Correct" Beliefs by Peter Enns
9. The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It by Peter Enns
10. How the Bible Actually Works by Peter Enns
11. The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth by Beth Allison Barr
12. Attached to God by Krispin Mayfield (and the podcast interview I did with him)
13. Christianity After Religion: The End of Church and the Birth of a New Spiritual Awakening By Diana Butler Bass

• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you. 

We read an incredible book in our book club that is a part of Flying Higher, my program for divorced Christian women. This book healed me in ways I didn’t expect, and I think the women in our book club would say the same.

Our discussion on this book was so powerful that I just had to let you all listen to a portion of it, so that is what today’s episode is all about!

Read the show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Check out the book we spent this whole episode talking about: The Book of Longings by Sue Monk Kidd.
• My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming. 
• Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. 
• Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
• Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you.