In a society where pornography is considered fine, or even healthy in some circles. Betrayal Trauma Recovery founder Anne Blythe, M.Ed. and her mom take a firm stance. Pornography use is adultery, and men who are married commit adultery when they use pornography.

If you need support check out our daily online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule.

Transcript: Why Pornography Use Is Adultery

Anne: My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how pornography isn’t just viewing videos. Or pictures, but it’s actually virtual intercourse because it involves masturbation.

It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation.

Pornography Use Is Adultery Because Of Hormonal Response

Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of using the word pornography. We should just say virtual sex.

Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because we often use the term pornography. Also, I think a lot of the world, they don’t think it involves anything else other than just looking.

But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the porn, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman.

https://youtu.be/kvJckL1Vh4k

So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid porn, it’s not good for you, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from.

Why Pornography Use Is Adultery

Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart.

Anne: Many people don’t think that just pornography use is adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience. That someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer.

Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean …

Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video.

Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation.

Anne: Through the masturbation part. My Mom’s idea, and I liked it. Was for all of us, rather than saying pornography, to say virtual sex all the time. Which is going to be hard, because everybody says pornography. But I’ve started saying that, and it’s actually been cool.

Virtual Sex & Pornography Use Is Adultery

Anne: Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a VR, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing pornography and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery?

Mom: I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery.

Anne: Regardless of how they got there.

Mom: Right.

Anne: They’re a real person. And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself.

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Public Perception On Pornography Use Is Adultery

Mom: When people hear that he just uses pornography all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing.

Anne: Or a video.

Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it.

Anne: When you think of pornography, you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it.

Mom: Right.

Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that?

Mom: Yeah.

Anne: No one.

Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation.

Anne: Right

Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing.

Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say pornography, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer.

Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses.

Anne: They’re having sex with themselves.

Mom: Yes.

Religious Perspectives On Virtual Sex

Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. Please go to BTR.ORG and find this podcast episode. Do you think it’s adultery and why?

Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship.

Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication.

It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion, is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company.

Mom: Or bad company.

Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence.

Mom: Dangerous.

Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that pornography use is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew?

Mom: Matthew chapter 5.

Anne: I love my Mom.

Conclusion & Call To Action

Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex rather than pornography, and I encourage you all to try it.

If you agree with our stance, pornography is adultery. That it’s virtual sex. And it’s also emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. If you agree with us, maybe because your husband has virtual sex with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about.

We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach pornography use or infidelity, virtual sex as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different.

We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our BTR group session schedule at BTR.ORG/GROUP. We’d love to see you in a group session today.

Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of.

Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of Prayed Upon, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For

Anne: Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and sex abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology.

Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, Prayed Upon, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy.

We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy.

Amy: Hi, it’s so good to be here.

Anne: We have comedy in common.

When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening.

Amy: Oh, interesting.

Anne: I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma.

Amy: Yes.

Anne: So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today.

Amy: Yeah.

Anne: Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims.

The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist

Anne: So let’s start with your story.

Amy: Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist.

He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa.

Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags.

Anne: At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process?

Amy: In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs

Amy: I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off.

But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward.

So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet.

Anne: Because we reject victim blaming here at BTR.ORG, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed?

Amy: Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice.

Anne: Right, so that’s coercion, right?

Amy: Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it.

Anne: Right, and it’s coercion.

Amy: It is coercion.

Anne: This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. These were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair.

I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.”

Anne: He was married at the time?

Amy: Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old.

Anne: Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yes.

Anne: And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then.

Amy: After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam.

Anne: The pastor’s wife?

Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior

Amy: Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions.

Anne: What?

Amy: Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy.

Anne: Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means.

Anne: There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.”

Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time.

Amy:Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it.

Anne: Absolutely.

Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Were Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. Then there was another huge red flag to add to the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.”

And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim.

Anne: Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness.

Amy: Oh yeah.

Anne: When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward.

Amy: I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude.

Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With” When I Saw Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again.

Anne: I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse.

So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you.

Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave

Amy: That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.”

And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen.

And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me.

Anne: Exactly.

Amy: And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you.

Anne: You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically?

Wanting To Escape But Manipulated To Think There Weren’t Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape.

Anne: I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this.

Amy: Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior.

Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation.

Anne: And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation.

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Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me

Amy: Yes, it’s like who else is there?

Anne: Mm hmm.

Amy: He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and …

Anne: Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically?

Amy: Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel.

Anne: Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong.

Amy: Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say.

Anne: Also very creepy.

Amy: Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse.

I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient.

Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it.

Anne: When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one.

Amy: No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body.

Anne: And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath.

And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister.

So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be.

Intentional Abuse & Isolation From Husband, More Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Anne: I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused.

That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly.

Amy: Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him.

He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right.

Not Charging Is A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him.

Anne: With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. They stopped charging them. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client.

Amy: Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person.

Anne: I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them.

The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign.

Amy: Right.

Anne: defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted.

Amy: An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you.

Therapist’s Physical Advances A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

Amy: I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end.

He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate.

Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. I asked him if he would sit next to me in the oversized chair for the remainder of the session. And he did. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault because I asked him to sit next to me. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed.

I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process. That is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all.

Resistance & Confusion About The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

Anne: And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time.

Amy: Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.”

And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. Is this one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist? But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave. More warning signs of an abusive therapist.

So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me.

Anne: Oh, that’s awesome.

Amy: Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours.

Anne: See, that is another red flag. That’s for sure one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. They go over time.

Amy: Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.”

And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.”

Emotional Attachment & Voicemails Trying To Get Me Back

Amy: Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time.

Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return.

That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun.

It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep.

Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Evil Intentions

Amy: I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end.

Anne: I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on.

We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Anne: I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.”

Amy: Right, I say rationalizing.

Surviving & Seeking The Support To Leave

Amy: That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it.

Anne: Yes.

Amy: The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license.

Anne: Hmm.

Amy: I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away.

Civil Malpractice Lawsuit Was Successful, But Not Really Justice

Amy: Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs of an abusive therapist early. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges.

But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that.

Anne: That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news.

Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming.

Common Patterns of Abusive Therapists

Anne: Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see?

Amy: Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs of an abusive therapist. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see the red flags and warning signs of an abusive therapist.

So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed. To see the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one.

There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive.

Anne: That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her.

Amy: Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over.

You Are Not Alone & It’s Not Your Fault

Amy: You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you.

It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion.

Anne: That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making the warning signs of an abusive therapist or other abuser seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on.

Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t.

Amy: Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened.

Watch Out For These Abusive Therapist Red Flags

Amy: It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself.

Anne: Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time.

The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time. Those are warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple.

Anne: A hundred percent, and almost every pornography addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know.

Finding The Right Therapist Can Be Difficult

Amy: When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart.

Amy: If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to.

Anne: Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why.

Amy: Yeah, you don’t owe them anything.

Anne: Yes, you owe them zero things.

Amy: It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words.

Anne: But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close.

At BTR.ORG The Coaches Understand

Anne: And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them.

Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag.

Amy: I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you.

You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it.

Anne: Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them.

Having Hope & Yet Realistic Expectations

Amy: Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave.

Anne: It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. Here at BTR.ORG, we’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm.

And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy.

Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope.

Amy: That’s very important, yes.

Anne: At BTR.ORG, we might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve. That’s also one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Therapists & Re-Traumatization Challenges

Amy: Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible.

Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it.

Anne: I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it.

Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself.

That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you.

Finding Someone To Talk To That Understands Abuse

Anne: Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways.

Amy: I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial.

The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it.

They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand.

Anne: Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer.

Challenges In Getting Help After Being Abused By A Therapist

Anne: It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session.

Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand.

Amy: I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing,

Anne: And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation.

Amy: Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone.

Needing To Reach Out For Help & Finding Safety

Amy: For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help.

However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether.

Anne: I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating.

Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you.

Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing.

Amy: Yes, thank you for having me.

Making the decision to learn about abuse is a big leap for many women. The ramifications feel overwhelming: by doing so, they may confirm their partner is abusive.

Need support? Learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group.

3 Reasons To Learn About Hidden Abuse:

1. Learn about abuse so that safety is the top priority.
2. An emotional abuser will you forgiveness as a weapon.
3. Learning about emotional and psychological abuse does not create abuse.

Anne and Coach Christina discuss the fact that society discourages women from learning about abuse, pushing the belief that if women learn about abuse, they’ll start making “mountains out of molehills” or imaging abuse where it isn’t present. But as Anne points out, abuse doesn’t appear out of thin air. And choosing to educate yourself about it can be life-saving for you or someone you love.

Transcript: 3 Compelling Reasons To Learn About Abuse

Anne: I have one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches on today’s episode, Coach Christina. She’s a betrayal trauma coach with over 15 years experience. Here at BTR, she validates women’s experiences while helping them use the Living Free Workshop strategies to make their way to emotional, psychological, spiritual, and physical safety. Christina believes every woman can use these effective strategies to recover and heal from trauma.

Coach Christina and I will cover three compelling reasons to learn about hidden abuse today. I’m going to lay them out for you right now really quick. Number one, learn about emotional and psychological abuse, so that your emotional safety is the top priority. Number two, an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon. And number three, learning about emotional and psychological abuse doesn’t create emotional and psychological abuse.

And we’ll go into detail about why those things are important throughout this conversation. I am so grateful that Christina is on our coaching team. She is incredible.

Anne: Let’s start with how you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Christina: Hi Anne, I love being part of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaching team. It’s incredible to work alongside you and our amazing coaches here.

Terrified About & Finding That Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is Safe

Christina: I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery as a woman who had just experienced my own betrayal, but then I was nervous. As I hear many of our clients say, I was nervous. I did not know. I said, is this place real? Is it safe? I had no clue. I was terrified of contacting a group of people I did not know, especially when there are so many groups out there.

And so I put it off. One therapist said it was the marriage’s fault. What was my husband missing from the marriage? Delve into him. Why did he have an affair?

And I fought that with tooth and nail. I never surrendered to that idea one time. And so I didn’t realize that as I was fighting through those codependent ideas. He could just simply blame the marriage, which meant he was blaming me. Which had him not taking full responsibility.

I never surrendered to that idea and am so grateful. So I would fight it, fight it, fight it. I just wanted to heal and even understand what happened. After going through a codependent model through therapy, I knew that wasn’t it. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery again.

I said, well, you know what? What do I have to lose? I will try it out. And I’m going to get on this session right away. Best decision I made. I learned I needed to be in safety at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And that’s what the codependent model did not teach me. I learned that in the codependent model, you communicate that boundary. And then he’s just gonna magically do what you say. Because clearly he’s gonna do it now that he’s betrayed the relationship.

1. Learn About Abuse So That Emotional Safety Is The Top Priority

Christina: Actually, it’s the opposite. He betrayed the relationship because of his character. He is boundless, so he’s not gonna respect the boundaries. Like many of our clients, when they come and they’re new, my first session, I didn’t say anything. So I was just listening and seeing if these women are safe.

That was my biggest thing. Are these women safe? Am I in the right group? I found that was the first thing. I found the rules of the group were for our safety. The coach, I mean, she was just full of education and yet she didn’t tell us what to do. She just simply asked us questions.

She asked the other ladies questions, and the ladies were safe to cry. They were safe to talk about vulnerable topics, and they were safe to wade through the questions. They learn about abuse and get to a place where they are enlightened. I saw women at different stages of their recovery. I saw where I was and where I wanted to be. And I thought that that was so powerful for my first session. And so I learned that it’s my job to keep myself safe, and that’s exactly what I did after that.

Anne: Well, I’m grateful that you found us. I’m grateful when any woman finds us, because the first reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse is that your safety needs to be the top priority. Your emotional safety, your psychological safety. Many people think when I say safety, I mean, like pack up your bags and leave the house. And that’s actually not what I’m talking about.

Learn About Abuse To Find Strategies To Deal With It

Anne: There are ways to be emotionally safe remaining in the same home, if that’s what you so choose. There are so many amazing strategies, and I teach them in the Living Free Workshop, and then our coaches can help you learn to use these strategies. We get so many messages and stories that say I had been through therapy for years or went to couple therapy or pornography addiction recovery. And nobody ever said the word abuse. They don’t say you need to learn about abuse.

Did you recognize his behaviors as abuse at the beginning of your marriage?

Christina: Absolutely not. I pretty much grew up around manipulation tactics and stonewalling. That was actually very common for me. So I thought that’s what marriage was about. And so I would tackle it head on. It wasn’t something I didn’t address. I definitely addressed it, and I thought, oh, we’re good. We talked about it. And so I didn’t recognize it as abuse.

And I was shocked when I learned the word abuse properly, because I would only think about abuse in terms of physical abuse. I did not think of it in terms of emotional or psychological, although throughout the marriage, I addressed it because I knew it wasn’t right. And it did not leave me feeling like I was being valued.

Anne: Yeah, you knew something was wrong. When did you recognize that these typical, you know, love, serve, forgive, do your part kinds of things weren’t working?

It Is Difficult To Recognize The Reality Of Abuse

Christina: I realized that after Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I remember my second group meeting when I opened up and they started giving us tools and books. I remember I put the book down and ran to the mirror. And I was like, oh my, I’ve been abused. I stayed up late after all my children went to bed, and I just sat with that. I sat with that and I’m like, this is abuse. This is why it is wrong. This is what I felt this whole time, and yet did not have the word for it.

You had to forgive, you serve, we talk about it, then you’re okay. But it never went away. That was the key. And I certainly was never encouraged to create safety for myself. Like, you know, this means you’re safe, you’re married. This is safety. And so that’s when I finally realized, wait a minute, this is abuse. And now I can look back and say that was abuse throughout the marriage.

Anne: Now from a coaching perspective, why do you think it’s so hard for women to recognize that what they’re experiencing is abuse?

Christina: The hardest thing is, this is someone our clients love. This is your husband, and this is who you love. And so it’s hard to associate. I’ve been loving this person who has been abusing me. This person is my husband, and he is an abuser. That is so hard to reconcile those two things when you learn about abuse.

2. An Emotional And Psychological Abuser Will Use Forgiveness As A Weapon

Anne: Especially when everything about love is trying to understand someone’s view, give them the benefit of the doubt, and serve them. And when so many of those things, when you’re in an abusive situation, are used as weapons. Even your emotions, because abusers don’t see emotion as a way to connect, they see emotion as a way to manipulate people.

And so even those emotional times where you thought maybe you were close once you got out of the fog, whoa, I shared those things. Then he used them to groom me and use them as weapons. And that is so shocking to so many women when they finally realize what is going on. And learn about abuse.

Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s hard to accept that as reality, absolutely.

Anne: So one of the things that you love talking about, which I’m going to just preface this word carefully, because it’s a very triggering word for people. Because a lot of clergy use it as a weapon against victims, and then also therapists use it as a weapon. Maybe the abuser’s family uses this word as a weapon. And so let’s say the word. Everyone kind of brace yourself. Here we go. It’s forgiveness.

The second reason to learn about abuse is that an emotional and psychological abuser will use forgiveness as a weapon.

Christina: Yes.

Anne: So people will say, well, you just need to forgive or he’s changed when he hasn’t. And you know that he hasn’t. So when we talk about forgiveness, one of your favorite questions to ask clients, and I love that you do this, is you ask, what are you forgiving?

Determination Of What I Am Forgiving

Anne: Can you talk about why that question is so important to you?

Christina: It is so important. Because, you know, a client comes to their clergy, their pastor, their small group leader, they go to their family, some of their friends even. And they say what happens, and that scripture is used, you must forgive, you must forgive. And I encourage our clients to look directly at them and say, well, what exactly am I forgiving? Because, okay, am I forgiving the acting out?

Okay, but what caused the acting out? What informed my husband to betray me. And informed him to commit adultery? What informed him to watch pornography? What informed him to be unkind to only me? Also what informed him to abuse me? And ask them directly, is that what I’m forgiving? Is it that, or just the acting out? And where do we engage with who that person is, who my husband is, and what he has done to me?

And I believe when that question is asked, that is the place where true healing is for the victim of abuse. Because you’re saying, “Well, this is who you are, and what you’ve done to me. I’m accepting who you are.” I do have to move forward in time, but only after I have all the information and learn about abuse, and is that being addressed? It’s who he is being addressed and what he’s done. Is that being addressed?

Or are you just using forgiveness as a weapon against me? And trying to fast forward me when I’ve been a victim and injured by his behavior, by his abuse. I’m injured, and you’re telling me to forgive when he has not even been addressed on who he is.

The Necessity Of Boundaries When You Learn About Abuse

Christina: And for me, the violations against scripture, he violated God’s word. He violated God. He violated our family. And so I have to know who that person is, and then I’ll be on the journey to forgiveness.

Anne: So let me see if I can restate. To forgive him, you have to acknowledge the truth, which is this is abuse. I know you’re an abuser. I’m forgiving you for being an abuser. Now that I know you’re an abuser and can forgive you, I need to also make sure I am safe from you. Because now that I know what you are, I can forgive and move on by setting boundaries, by making sure I’m as safe as possible, et cetera, et cetera. So am I correctly stating that?

Christina: You are stating that absolutely correctly. Because once you delve into who he is, and learn about abuse, you know what you are actually forgiving.

His Willful Decisions Are Dangerous To Emotional, Psychological & Spiritual Health

Christina: Number one, the hope is pastors, friends, clerks say, wait a minute, hold up. She’s actually not safe. His core of who he is has informed him to make these decisions to abuse.

That is a choice. That was his willful decision. And she absolutely needs to get to a place of safety. That’s the hope. And if they don’t, then for the woman, wife, betrayed victim, it’s saying, wait a minute, hold up. That is who he is. I absolutely need to be in a place of safety.

It does not automatically mean it’ll be reconciliation. That’ll be for the offender to do the work of changing his core of who he is. He has to reform who he is. But it does say, Hey, I need to be safe where there’s some separation. If you cannot leave, you wrap yourself in bubble wrap. You know exactly who you’re dealing with and learn about abuse.

And you don’t have any surprises. You know exactly who he is. But now you know, that’s not lost on you or anyone else. And you know, your safety, the safety of your family is the primary focus. That’s what I mean when I say, what are you forgiving? Because that puts the highlight on who he is.

Anne: Forgiveness is, I wouldn’t say, impossible, but very difficult without boundaries. Boundaries and safety enable that forgiveness. And it’s also part of this radical acceptance that everybody’s talking about. Where you’re like, oh, this person is dangerous or unhealthy, and they’re dangerous to my emotional health.

They’re dangerous to my psychological health. And they’re dangerous to my spirit. And so. I’m going to forgive them for that. I’m sorry that that happened. And I’m going to ensure that doesn’t happen again by setting boundaries.

https://youtu.be/8FgurwYmD24

Forgiveness Has Nothing To Do With Trust & Reconciliation

Anne: Because we all know, hopefully we know. If you don’t, forgiveness has nothing to do with trust. It has nothing to do with reconciliation, nothing to do with communicating with your abuser. It is to set us free, and it takes time and is a process. And so anyone who expects forgiveness quickly, and also expects reconciliation, does not understand forgiveness. And is also not prioritizing your safety.

Christina: 100 percent agree. You know, I love how in our sessions, I can even hold up the diagram, what forgiveness is versus what trust is. You know, forgiveness requires nothing of the offender. It is unconditional. It is based on grace and trust, which requires much of the offender is conditional, and is based on works.

And I love that. It’s just right from your book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. And I love how it’s simply put, and it’s absolutely true. Forgiveness, in my humble opinion, doesn’t have to be a horrible word for those injured. And yet, it doesn’t give anyone the right to use it as a weapon. It is a process.

It takes time. A lot of times, our husbands have kept this secret world and secret life for years, for years, and usually before they even met us. And so to find out and then in the next moment you’re supposed to forgive is unfair, and it should definitely not be used as a weapon of any sort.

It is a process, and in time, forgiveness sets us free. It doesn’t mean there’ll be a reconciliation of any sort. Or It doesn’t mean you will automatically trust them at all. They have to do the work and learn about abuse. To gain the trust that they destroy it back. That’s their job.

Setting Boundaries For Safety When You Learn About Abuse

Anne: Those who have listened to this podcast from the beginning know that my voice now sounds so much different than it did in the beginning. Number one, because I altered it before because I was so terrified. Now this is my actual voice. But number two, my confidence, my peace, and my safety, have improved over time.

And the reason is because I really prayed, studied, and discovered the strategies I now teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It was such a miracle to be enlightened with those strategies. And then to use them and see that they worked, and then to help other women use them. And then to create a detailed workshop to help women do it too.

I know so many of our Betrayal Trauma Recovedry Group Session clients use the Living Free Workshop as a session tool to learn how to set effective boundaries.

Can you talk about that?

Christina: So I make boundaries very simple. I encourage our clients that the first boundary you ever make is for yourself, and to step back and say, wait a minute, is that okay? Or is it not okay? If it’s not okay, I need to make sure I’m safe. And I make it just that simple. Is this okay for me? No, it’s not okay. It’s absolutely not okay. Okay. Or okay, that is okay. Abuse is never okay. Scripture does not support abuse in any way, shape, or form. You can learn about abuse.

It is not our role to submit to abuse, it is not okay. It is okay for us to maintain safe boundaries for ourselves and for our family. That is okay. And no one has that right to choose that for us.

How To Determine The Truth, Is He Abusive?

Anne: I experience this as I’m talking with victims all over the world. Many times they’ll say, He does this, it bothers me, but is this abuse? As if someone else needs to tell them what they’re experiencing is acceptable or not. They feel uncomfortable, then let’s say Anne Blythe of Betrayal Trauma Recovery says, “Oh, that’s fine. That’s not abuse. You need to learn about abuse.”

And they’d be like, well, I guess Anne said grabbing a cookie out of my hand, and shoving it in his face, isn’t abuse. So I guess I accept that. A few lessons in Living Free, go over this in detail, like lesson 11. Where you’re getting in touch with your own sacred internal warning system. So that you decide what makes you feel safe, and how to get to safety.

I want to give women the confidence, nobody needs to tell you if it’s okay or not. Is it okay with you? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel safe? That’s the only thing you need to pay attention to. If your clergy says, Oh, that’s not a big deal. All men do that. If a therapist is like, oh well, you just need to understand him more. Just think, is this acceptable to me? Is this something that I feel comfortable with in my own home?

Christina: Absolutely, I a hundred percent agree with that. Your woman’s intuition. It’s God given to you to use. It is beautiful. It is unique. And it identifies you and you know inside of yourself, oh, wait a minute. That is really not okay. Hold up. I did not feel safe. You know, introducing the proper words. Wait, are you safe? You know, can you be vulnerable? You know, it’s the truth in this relationship.

Intuition Is Your Greatest Gift

Christina: Is a relationship honest? And your intuition is your greatest gift. Your own for you in time to be able to even validate yourself and say, wait a minute, I’m listening to my intuition. I am not safe. Oh, that was not communicated. Well, I was just gaslit. And I know that for myself. That is one of our goals at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

And I’m so thankful for that because a lot of times when a woman has been abused for so long, that part of her has been dismissed. She’s been taught to stuff it down. She’s been taught to listen to everybody else except herself. And that’s a woman’s greatest strength is her intuition.

Anne: I think clergy concerns and therapist concerns are like, well, we don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. So we don’t want to call this abuse. And I think one of the reasons women are concerned about trying to learn about abuse is because they’re concerned that it will create abuse out of thin air when it didn’t exist before.

3. Learning About Emotional & Psychological Abuse Doesn’t Create Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: And so this is the third reason to learn about emotional and psychological abuse. To learn about abuse doesn’t create abuse, it just keeps you safe. If you listened to this podcast, or you enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, or you buy one of my books. And you read it and you’re like, this doesn’t relate, this isn’t what I’m experiencing. Then you can know it’s not abuse. It’s like a process of elimination. If he’s not abusive, you’re not going to relate.

Learning about abuse doesn’t create abuse out of thin air. It helps you recognize what’s going on. The other thing that I have found is that as I have learned more about what abuse is, how it works, what the underlying issues are like control, manipulation, misogyny, things like that. I’ve also learned more about what healthy behaviors are, and I’ve actually felt more and more safe in the world because I can more clearly see abuse while it’s happening in real time.

I can witness something and be like, oh, that’s abuse. In fact, I was at Sequoia National Park and there was a man and a woman. They had been waiting, but then a line formed, and even though they got into the line and got on the shuttle. So it wasn’t a problem, he said to her. “What’s wrong with you? We woke up at four o’clock in the morning to do this. Now we have to be at the back of the line, and I don’t know what’s wrong with you.”

I stopped them and I pointed right at him at his chest and I said, what’s wrong with you? There’s nothing wrong with her. I don’t know what your problem is, but whatever it is, something is wrong with you.

Making A Molehill Out Of A Mountain

Anne: And then I tried to give her a compassionate look, but in that moment, I knew that is abuse. Like, I’m going to say something. And similarly with healthy men that I now observe, I’m like, oh, that’s healthy. That’s not abuse. Learning about abuse will not create abuse out of thin air, but may be there whether you know it or not.

Christina: Yes, and I was going to say the same thing. You know, the idea of creating a mountain out of a molehill is already there. It’s just a matter of whether you’re going to define it properly, diagnose it properly, identify properly as abuse, and get to safety. If anybody else recognizes this as the truth, the clergy, all those who would say that, and ignoring the actual abuse will not make it any better.

So actually opening up and reading the book. Getting the information that will help you address, oh, this is who he really is. This is who has been in my house in my bed. This is my husband, and it strengthens you when you see. So I was like, well, we’ll have to figure this out. You have to see and learn about abuse in situations to actually stand up to it.

And you identify it so much quicker, because now your intuition is informed. You’re like, oh, my intuition was telling me right. This entire time, and you’re strengthened, and you can know the difference and clearly identify it, especially if you’re not ignoring the mountain already there. Because the mountain is already there. It’s not a molehill.

Anne: Yeah, what they’re doing is making a molehill out of a mountain.

Christina: Exactly, right.

Anne: And that mountain is going to crush her.

We Welcome Interfaith & Interparadigm Viewpoints To Learn Of Abuse

Christina: It will crush her. And then what? I mean, it’s so unfortunate, because they’ll say that. And by the time she’s actually at a place of saying something, the mountain is already crushing her. Then there’s more to come by the time she can even express herself. It doesn’t get better over time when it’s not addressed properly.

Anne: Yes, exactly. So Betrayal Trauma Recovery is interfaith and interparadigm. We welcome everyone here. We have agnostics who listened to the podcast, atheists and Christians, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here to learn about abuse.

When we speak from a perspective of a woman of faith, we’re just speaking from our own experience, but not necessarily telling other women that they need to process it this way. So because Christina is a woman of faith, you like to create value for yourself in God’s word.

Dealing With Qualities Of Good & Evil

Anne: Can you talk about how God’s word has helped you feel that you have value?

Christina: The idea that in God’s word, I’m worth more than the whole world to God. And that when he defines love, love is patient. kind, not rude, not boastful, and it doesn’t demand its own way. When we learn about abuse, we realize it is not from God.

It’s not irritable. I mean, he’s talking about me and how much God loves me and in his love. Because I’m a woman, I’m supposed to believe I’m an object and an object of abuse? I’m neither. God made me, and he shaped me, and he loves me. And just like, there are way more scriptures about evil in the Bible, and that’s what he calls sin and what our husbands have done.

He calls it evil. And he said husbands are supposed to love their wives. As Christ loves the church, and he died and gave himself for the church. And that’s what I love about God. That is my value. My value is not defined by this experience I’ve had with my husband. It’s already defined in God’s word. I don’t have to give anything away.

Misinterpretation Of Scripture Can Rationalize Abuse

Christina: God has said I am loved and I am his. And that’s what I think I did in the beginning of my marriage and coming into the church. I believe the scripture was misappropriated. Ephesians chapter 5, and it was almost taught to us in the way that the husband acted any way he can, not nice.

He can be unkind. He can stonewall he can, even DARVO. None of those things were addressed back then. And your job is, you’re just supposed to submit. And that is not true. I look at submission completely differently. It means under the mission, and the mission is Christ. We need to learn about abuse and be safe.

The mission is not to be abused, punished, or an object. That is not Christ’s mission. The mission is Christ and his will, and my husband was supposed to submit to Christ. I submit to that. And the moment he did not, I have no responsibility to submit to him.

Anne: Yeah, absolutely agreed. Yeah, for us Christians submitting to God, right. And submitting to truth, submitting to righteousness, is really important to us. And so many women feel like I need to submit to my husband, but they don’t realize what they’re submitting to is evil. They’re submitting to evil, and God does not want us to do that.

Christina: Not at all.

Lies, Misogyny, Lack Of Integrity & Lack Of Empathy Are Character Issues Of Abusers

Christina: I believe Jesus said that when Satan lies, it’s in his character. He lies from his character. I thought that was so good when I joined Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because I was so surprised, I kept hearing addiction and things like that. My husband had a sexual addiction, and then to find out, oh no, this is his character.

This was his choice, it was an integrity problem. He had an integrity abuse problem. I was blown away that no, this is a thinking problem. He’s misogynist, he has misogynistic thinking. And he lacked empathy. He had empathy for himself, but he definitely didn’t have empathy for his low wife and the misogynistic views he had for his wife.

He didn’t have that. And so I just absolutely love the truth here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Because it calls it out for what it is, and no man, no husband, is above God’s word. He isn’t subjugated to other parts of scripture because he’s a husband. Where if he lies, it’s evil. He watches pornography, it’s evil. He commits adultery, it’s evil. If he has wickedness in his heart, it is evil. And that’s what God’s word says. And I’m sticking to that.

Anne: Me too. So there’ve been several clergy people who tell me things like, well, pornography isn’t adultery. And I’m like, I think Jesus would have the final say on that. And he says it’s adultery. Or, these men aren’t bad guys. And I’m like, well, you know, the scriptures call them wicked. So I think I’ll stick with what the scriptures say. Thank you very much.

I find peace in the scriptures, and I find so much healing there that God hates this. He loves us and wants us to learn about abuse and safety.

Abuse Creates A Faith Crisis For Victims

Anne: For the women who find the scriptures triggery or difficult to read. Or church to be triggery or things like that, our heart goes out to you. So many women have decided to move away from their faith due to their abuse. I wanted to say from a Betrayal Trauma Recovery perspective, we understand that too. What makes me sad in that situation. Depending on what the woman is like and wants, we always support her and what’s best for her as she starts to learn about abuse.

What makes me sad about it is sometimes things women care about, like their faith or maybe other things. Let’s pretend like she really super cares about a certain football team. And that has been her identity, and she goes to all the football games, and she does a football party, and wears the jersey and everything. And then after she finds out her husband is an abuser and has been using football as a weapon against her.

Then suddenly she loses the ability to find joy in her team, and she can’t throw parties anymore. Every time she sees the jersey, she just wants to throw up, right. And that’s the same thing with women and their faith sometimes, in that some women have a visceral reaction to a man in a suit and tie, for example, or someone reading scriptures or something. And so I just want to send out love and hugs to you.

If you have lost something, no matter what, your faith, a football team, you know, could be. I don’t know, cheesecake, whatever it is. If you have lost something due to your husband’s abuse.

When You Learn About Abuse, You Learn It’s Not Your Fault

Anne: I’d encourage you to determine what things do serve you that you still love. And as you heal, reconnect with those things. Depending on what those are and where you’re at in your healing. Christina, you are an amazing coach. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and have become part of our team. From your perspective now, what advice would you give to women who are just finding out about their husband’s pornography use?

Christina: He hid that for years. I knew about that many years ago. And then it was something that, you know, he dealt with. The men in church said, don’t tell Christina. And once he started back after four years, he hid it. And so I had a dream that he was hiding something that I found out about an affair. Which led me to learn about abuse and that he was still in pornography and growing it the whole time.

So if you’ve just found out about your husband’s pornography use. It is not your fault, and had nothing to do with the marriage. It had nothing to do with you. I hear it a lot. Our clients, they’ll think about all the things they’ve brought into the marriage, whether their own childhood trauma, the areas where they feel like they fell short.

Whether it’s communication or what they can give, even in the worst marriage, it’s still not your fault. And my hope is that you as a woman can rest and know that this is a hundred percent his issue, not yours.

Anne: That’s really a good place to start.

Pornography Use Is A Marker For Abuse

Anne: The reason why I wanted to bring up pornography use is that we talk so much about abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And abuse is hard to figure out, right? You’ve got all this stuff going on. Is it abuse? Is it not abuse? But one of the easiest markers is pornography use. I just want to put everyone’s mind at ease or at, not at ease, I guess. It’s abuse if you know your husband uses pornography and lies about it, it’s the easiest marker.

It’s like someone punching you. Some women say, “Oh, I just wish he would punch me in the face.” They don’t want to be punched in the face. But they’d know what was going on. Many women say that. I would say that is exactly the same thing you can say about pornography.

If you know your husband has used pornography, if you’ve seen it on his phone or have had some inkling it’s going on. That is another marker. And it’s just as clear as someone punching you in the face. The unfortunate thing about pornography is that if you get punched in the face with it, if you do see it, then you know. But they can hide it forever. Then, you could never know about it. So in that case, you have to look at all the other markers and learn about abuse.

I think it’s important too, because it’s rarely brought up in mainstream abuse circles. Similarly, abuse is never talked about in the pornography addiction recovery world. At Betrayal Truama Recovery, we want to bring all these things together, so women can have a clear, round picture of the truth and what is happening.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Comprehensive Support To Learn About Abuse

Anne: We have such an amazing strong coaching team. All of them can help you implement the strategies you learn about abuse in the Living Free Workshop, or you can just attend a Group Session and start wherever you want. We are here for. you, no matter where you are in your journey.

When victims of betrayal and emotional abuse are told things like, “If you have enough faith, God will change your husband.” Or, “You decide whether you are a victim.” These statements are a form of spiritual or new age bypass. What does spiritual bypass mean for victims of emotional abuse? Here’s what you need to know.

If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, we would love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

Transcript: What Does Spiritual Bypass Mean? What You Need To Know

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common.

We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. I think the main issue is abusers used spiritual bypass, clergy or even therapists to build up abusers and keep victims trapped.

Tracy: Absolutely. Okay. Wow. You’re jumping right into the meat of things. Spiritual bypass is such a complex topic.

Understanding What Spiritual Bypass Means

Anne: I’m interested in learning how spiritual concepts are used to abuse women. We’ll get to that a little later, but before we get to that, how can understanding what spiritual bypass means help those seeking to heal from trauma?

Tracy: I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education.

So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me.

Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me, and it was incredible. I mean, it worked immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma.

Recognizing Reality and Spiritual Bypass Meaning Helps Victims of Betrayal and Abuse

Anne: My guess is, this was the first time you knew you were in the abuse cycle. But you found out more later. The other thing you didn’t know at the time was that your husband was abusive. So this to you felt like a miracle that you could move forward and forgive. You didn’t realize that you hadn’t healed from trauma, but also that you weren’t safe.

Tracy: Right, here’s where spiritual bypass can get tricky. Because while that worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation.

Anne: Okay, that’s interesting. I can think of many examples of spiritual bypass. Something like I’m going to let Jesus solve this problem and ta da! It’s solved. Or other ways in which I’m going to turn to God. Mistaking that moment of feeling peace, which is a good thing. You needed to feel peace, and he gave you the gift of peace in that moment. But mistaking a moment of peace for the solution.

Tracy: Absolutely.

The Second D-Day

Tracy: Yeah, and I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, which was 15 years into marriage. I had very little idea that anything was going on between. I did have one small D-day, a year after the first, about a year into marriage. But again, I still did not realize what was going on.

About 15 years in, I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand.

So the second one was incredibly traumatic. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that.

Aftermath Of Second D-Day & Not Knowing What Spiritual Bypass Means

Tracy: I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour.

And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And continuing to experience spiritual bypass over and over.

Anne: The other thing at the time, I’m guessing, was you did not take into account. That those 15 years you were psychologically abused continually. So you’re not just saying, I’m not going to stand for one more D-Day.

Tracy: Right, absolutely. And I didn’t know what spiritual bypass was at that point. I didn’t even stumble upon this concept until a year after that second D-Day. But this is something I knew inherently in that moment, that moment of truth, right? And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time.

This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. And I start setting boundaries right away without even knowing what a boundary was. I was never introduced to the concept, it was something that I knew.

https://youtu.be/UoB4iw-pXAM

Why Are Spiritual Bypass & New Age Bypass Harmful To Victims Of Betrayal?

Tracy: The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. So it actually did not help me in the context of my relationship. But it helped me personally strengthen my relationship with God. So there was good and truth that came out of that first experience for me personally.

Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. You did not feel betrayed by God then? You didn’t look back and say, Oh, he gave me the sense of peace. He gave me the ability to forgive, and that did me wrong.

Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along.

He was warning me. After that first D-day, I would pray for discernment. Oh, I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if he was lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? So I guess the spiritual bypass was coming from me.

Protecting Myself From What Spiritual Bypass Means

Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I felt that uneasiness. I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. It was realizing what gaslighting was, and again, before I understood what gaslighting was, my husband interfered with my relationship with God.

Anne: That’s super cool, because that’s exactly what happens. It’s an abusive situation. Where over and over again, someone is on purpose manipulating your reality to inhibit your relationship with God on purpose. They are using spiritual bypass to manipulate as well.

Tracy: Absolutely, yeah, and that’s what it did. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And it was really weird to me because I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done.

My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason.

Caution & Prayer

Anne: That’s fascinating. I had that same thing happen. I considered myself spiritual before I married. And then after I married, it was so difficult to feel that. And I’ve never thought about it in this context before. Is that one of the reasons you felt really betrayed the first time? Was because you had maybe prayed about it? Should I marry him?

And you got an answer, yes. And then you thought, why would you tell me to marry this guy? Or talk about why you felt really betrayed by God the first time?

Tracy: Yes and no, I didn’t actually get the answer, Yes. What happened was, I was careful and cautious about marrying. I didn’t want to just make a rash decision. And I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith, step into the darkness. So, you know, I said, yes.

Engagement Doubts & Red Flags

Tracy: Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. And it’s interesting, because there were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography.

And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of just uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged.

She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours.

Because it might just come and go, or whatever, just the butterflies. And actually, I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety or whatever. So I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours.

Then I hope that means this is serious. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours, that length of time. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything to point to.

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Dad, Marriage Decision & Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. He basically just talked me out of my feelings.

And basically convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work.

It was awful. But I did briefly, just very briefly, feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer.

Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. No, he didn’t tell me exactly what, but I knew something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous.

I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way.

Spiritual Bypass And Answers To Prayer

Anne: I think that’s a good way to look at it. I hope that women can get to that point and realize that, but it’s very, very difficult, especially if they haven’t had some of those experiences where they feel like a prayer was answered and maybe they ignored it. But I think that’s good to bring up. Thank you for sharing that part.

Tracy: I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience.

And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. What I would encourage them to think about is what did that yes actually mean? Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives.

Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, there are those books I had as a kid. I forget what they’re called. It changes your ending books.

Choices Mean Endings Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse

Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change.

Things would play out. I think it’s helpful to think of life more that way. So, based on the circumstances of something right now, I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and my answer may then change if I pray again. Does that make sense?

Anne: It does. I think it also helps women to know, that because a lot of women are like, well, I need to set a boundary. And my boundary really does need to be separation right now. Because he’s so emotionally abusive that I cannot even be around him, let’s pretend. But then they’ll think back to that answer and be like, but I’m supposed to be with him.

So instead of saying, okay. I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be abused, which is a form of spiritual bypass. That’s never the answer. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, hopefully this is inspiration for you, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past.

The Logical Decision To Marry

Anne: I agree completely. For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision. I’m very, very logical. So it seemed like the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I don’t know if I would have received an answer, but I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him.

He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil.

Spiritual Bypass Meaning In Abusive Behaviors

Anne: Let’s talk about how spiritual bypass is problematic for a man exhibiting abusive behaviors.

Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day.

He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life.

He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No.

He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But it was a two steps forward, three steps back. And he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me.

But the thing is, he was never going to get to six months or a year. He was just spiritual bypass and keeping me stuck in abuse.

Spiritual Bypass Means A False Sense Of Recovery

Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, he was exhibiting another form of spiritual bypass. He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done.

Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? This is just another example of how he used spiritual bypass. So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not.

Anne: Instead of asking the question, am I emotionally safe? A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, yeah he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week.

The question: Is he currently safe? Has to be answered by what his character currently is. Which seems to be a much safer question for victims to ask than, “Is he in recovery?”

Emotional Safety vs. Recovery

Tracy: I agree, there is this false hope and a sense of safety, but it’s not genuine safety. It’s just a feeling of safety that we so desperately want.

Anne: I think it’s a hope of safety. Because if they’re attending a 12-step meeting and they’re attending therapy, then you’re not safe yet. But you’re hoping to be safe in soon. So instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. You’re hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future.

Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us.

Anne: Let’s say we’re not experiencing abusive behaviors. And because we haven’t been experiencing them for some time, he appears to be healthy and safe.

But we wouldn’t know unless it happened again. And at that point, you could look back and reframe what your current experience is. But until that happens, why not just enjoy the moment? And, hopefully, I’ll It never happens again, because this period of peace and safety is not a grooming period.

It’s actually that he’s changed his behaviors. I’m always concerned of these peaceful good times. How do we know if they’re another, maybe long and maybe better grooming period? Because he’s learned all this therapy speak, so he’s able to groom a little bit better than he has been before.

Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Manipulation?

Tracy: Right, exactly. And in the same kind of way, When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now?

Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. I love that. Let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What you don’t believe in Jesus?”

Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse.

Anne: They’re parading what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs as legitimate. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain.

Tracy: Right, Yeah. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate.

Anne: That is a form of gaslighting. To say, You telling me how you feel about me abusing you is mean, is absolutely ridiculous. A comic on Facebook said, I’m so sad and depressed about how you’re talking about me abusing you.

Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Ecclesiastical Leaders Are Enabling Abuse?

Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away using spiritual bypass. Praying alone is going to work. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. But not addressing the underlying psychological issues that are at play here, that need to be addressed.

Anne: Reminds me of Luke 18, where the unjust judge says, Pray and God will help you. But he actually has the ability to hold the offender accountable. In many ways, instead of holding the offender accountable. Perhaps putting him in jail or whatever other options that that judge has for that offender, instead of doing that, he tells the victim, Pray, God will help you. When he is actually refusing to be that help, shirking his duty as a judge.

Tracy: He could be the instrument in God’s hand to help. But he’s not. So this happens often to victims as well. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive.

Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse.

Tracy: Right.

Anne: So you’re telling a victim to basically tolerate abuse and that if she doesn’t, that she’s the problem rather than the abuse.

Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse.

Embracing Difficult Emotions & Recognizing Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: My first D-Day and then my second D-Day. While it was a form of bypass that kept me stuck , I can look back on periods or instances where we recognize spiritual bypass, so we can have compassion on ourselves.

Like for example, there are times when we may be feeling just so heavy and we just really wanna break. It’s just too heavy tonight. It’s just too heavy.

I’m gonna go read my scriptures or say a prayer, ask for God to take this feeling away. Maybe listen to some uplifting music, recognizing that’s what I’m doing. It’s an intentional thing. because right now it’s just too heavy and I need this comfort. That’s not the kind of bypass that’s going to keep you stuck.

Anne: There’s never going to be anything wrong with asking God for comfort and for asking him for peace. The only thing is if you’re in an abusive situation, a moment of peace is not going to solve your problem. A moment of comfort isn’t going to solve your problem. So you can feel that comfort enough to move forward, to set a boundary, to know what you need to do.

And also for a break from the intense emotional pain. I remember I would jump up and down, like when I was praying and I would scream and yell and be like, why aren’t you doing anything about this? I was kind of thinking that there would be an instant where he Would solve it.

Feeling Comforted & Terrible

Anne: Most of the time, I wasn’t comforted, and I just felt terrible. My experience was like, God wasn’t even going to give me any moments of peace, because maybe he thought I would misinterpret them. So he was like, I’m going to let you be in total pain for a year and a half. And then finally the clouds lifted after I’d been separated from his physical presence for at least a year.

Many women do feel a lot of peace, even though the situation is terrible. We don’t ever have to think. Wait a minute, was that feeling of love real? Because it always is. He wants to comfort us and he wants us to feel his love. All right.

New Age Bypass & Victim Blaming

Anne: So now that we’ve covered spiritual bypass, let’s talk about new age bypass. Which is sort of this, despite your painful current circumstances, all you have to do is think differently.

Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong, especially in healing from trauma or if you’re in a dangerous situation. There’s a lot of victim blaming that can go on in this kind of teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything we feel or experience originates with our own thoughts, so that we are creating our feelings with our thoughts. That nothing is happening to us from the outside.

That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal.

So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong.

Anne: I think the biggest danger in that is that someone would think. Okay, well, if I can just think different thoughts then my reality will change without actually taking action to keep themselves safe. Have you seen that in your experience?

Tracy: Yes, let’s hit on this one.

Debunking “We Create Our Own Reality”

Tracy: We create our own reality. Okay, so we’re going to debunk that. Often victims will hear. We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough.

Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. There are other people and forces around us.

There are all kinds of things that we can’t control. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way.

Anne: We’re Jedi masters, you will not look at porn anymore. Oh I will not look at porn anymore, you will not hurt me anymore, or thinking this isn’t hurting me. When it is hurting you.

Tracy: Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Recognizing that everything is not in our power, but there are some things that we can do to minimize risk.

Gratitude Doesn’t Keep You Safe From Abuse: Spiritual Bypass

Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe.

Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing that we’re human, recognizing that we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations in our humanity.

And so with spiritual bypass, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on how we can transcend it. We can transcend the human experience, basically. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience.

Anne: When you say transcend, what do you mean? Like, we don’t have to experience it. We can be above it.

Tracy: Basically float above it. Basically, get so good at disassociation is what it is. Learning to disassociate. And fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain.

Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning

Anne: It reminds me of a lunch I went to with this lady. She was a gratitude coach, I think, something like this. And she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “Well, gratitude is the heart of everything.”

If I just learned that if you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful for women, because if they’re stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety, is that it’s not going to help them at all.

Right, so I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, you might want to say, Oh, I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation.

Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. Exactly. So there is truth in what she is teaching. But trying to apply that broad brush, yeah, that’s not going to help women stuck in an abusive situation. Or people who have just been victimized.

Toxic Positivity & Its Dangers

Tracy: So this gratitude coach you’re talking about. This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing our emotions and feeling guilty for the negative emotions we feel. Minimizing other people’s experiences.

Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions.

When I was in serious trauma. I had a major D-Day like a month before. And I was with family, and something triggered me. Mind you, I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing.

I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children. And that was not helpful. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming.

The Need For Safety & Stability

Tracy: I felt, now, okay, so now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future”.

Anne: A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past

Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of remembrance and grieving.

Which is that second stage of healing, and that’s a long process. We have to process what has happened. We have to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. And oftentimes, we can learn great things from it.

But if we can’t we can’t or if we don’t, if that’s not part of our process, we shouldn’t shame ourselves for it. It takes a very long time, but you can’t even really make any progress in that second stage if you haven’t found safety and stability first. So, it’s basically just a, you’re making me uncomfortable with your difficult emotions, so I’m going to tell you to turn them off and pretend that, that nothing is wrong.

Pressure To Move On & By Using Spiritual Bypass

Anne: And move on, right? Many people say things like, it’s going to be okay. It’ll be fine. Things will work out, like, let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay.

But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault.

Tracy: Exactly. It’s more victim blaming. We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others.

So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation.

And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless.

Anne: Or that would never happen to me. Because I’ve asked the right questions, . A lot of women ask all the right questions, and they’re still victimized.

Victim Blaming & Self-Blame

Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries.

And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again.

And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again.

Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again.

Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t.

Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? You’re saying two opposite things at the same time.

Tracy: It’s just talking out of both sides, it doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time.

Perception Vs. Reality

Anne: There’s a lot to be said on how you perceive things. Is this going to change your reality? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is we have been perceiving that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy. Who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person.

Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? Is it true that these behaviors that I’m witnessing. Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is. Regardless of this and this, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse?

Tracy: Yes, exactly. I’m so glad that you brought that up.

Truthful Thinking vs Positive Thinking: Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: And I encounter this when, well, we just need to have, you know, positive thinking. We just need to change our outlook. I like to remind women that truthful thinking is more important than positive thinking. Sometimes, while positive thinking can be helpful, sometimes it can keep us in dangerous situations.

I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very, very sad story. And a friend wanted to pass on some of this stuff that she thought would be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, to imagine the good that can come of this. I’m like, no, that’s not going to be helpful. Please, no. That’s spiritual bypass.

That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Or, well, let’s hope for this outcome. And just think about that, focus on that, and work towards that.

Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization

Anne: What some people call hopium, this hope that he will change or can change. When you say work for the outcome you want, all women I’ve talked to, I’ve never met a woman who doesn’t feel this way.

Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome, not the worst case scenario. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce.

You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this.

Tracy: Right, well, it’s also painful. Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is.

Anne: Yeah, it’s bad. I try to tell people how bad it is, and they don’t want to know how bad it is. In talking about these new age things, like spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Like it’s all for the best, or there’s no coincidences. There might be some overlap with something called post traumatic growth, although I think post traumatic growth is something completely different.

Tracy: It is.

Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass

Anne: So let’s talk about what post traumatic growth actually is. Like, just thinking, oh, this happened for a reason (spiritual bypass). There are lessons to be learned. What would post traumatic growth mean for a victim in an actual, meaningful, useful way?

Tracy: Post traumatic growth is first of all not an escape the way spiritual bypass is. Rather than an escape, it’s an embrace of ourselves. It’s genuine self compassion. It’s coming out the other side with a new appreciation for life. Healthier relationships with others, an optimistic view of new possibilities in life. We feel stronger, we feel genuinely changed.

Anne: For me, the post-traumatic growth has helped me feel more vulnerable and more human, I guess. Truly humbled me and broken me to the point where now I feel very like equal to my other fellow humans on this earth. How has that felt for you?

Embracing Self-Compassion

Tracy: I love what you said about broken. For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it.

Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. So I’m at peace with it. And then just everything that you said, to this new humility. Where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others.

I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life.

Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible

Anne: And I think the post traumatic growth isn’t possible, the growth part with spiritual bypass. Because spiritual bypass doesn’t lead to growth.

Tracy: Spiritual bypass leads to a temporary escape. It can feel like we’ve grown, because we feel different temporarily. But our circumstances don’t change, and things are still acting on us. For me, when the trauma was so bad, I realized I’m broken. Like I’m on the floor, helpless, hitting that kind of a low,

Anne: What would you say to women who have not yet felt that post traumatic growth, and they’re in the middle of the trauma? About what their future can look like as they take the time to heal and go through the stages of grief?

Tracy: For me, my belief is that self-compassion is really opening ourselves up to feel the love of God. It’s feeling a portion of his unmitigated love for us. Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away.

Anne: Also recognizing that you literally were a victim.

Tracy: Oh, absolutely.

Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim, they can grow. But they don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal using spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Which can be exciting, but there are no shortcuts.

Trigger Warning: Positive Post

Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. I wrote something a couple years after a big D-day I put a trigger warning on it.

Tracy: And the trigger warning is a positive post. So I’ll just read this. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured.

For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place.

So that’s why I put a trigger warning. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing.

Growth From Betrayal Trauma

Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us.

Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma.

I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad.

I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of sexual betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second.

The Good & Bad Of Betrayal

Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing.

None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey?

I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow.

Anne: That is so good. That’s how so many women feel. Although I, like I said with that lady at lunch, being grateful isn’t the solution per se, but now that I’m on the other side, I actually do feel grateful, but bypass wasn’t the solution. It’s how I feel now that I have space, that I have safety, and that I have security. I’ve been able to process things from a safe distance. Now I feel grateful.

Choosing To Be Safe Over Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: Right. And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass.

You know, all these things. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was not helpful at all. It was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe.

Anne: Yeah, totally.

Anne: So both of us read the book, Jesus, feminist by Sarah Bessey. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a women’s empowerment organization. And to me, that’s exactly what feminist simply means: that women have equal rights and are empowered to be independent. And live the lives that we choose, and we’re not oppressed or trapped. So let’s talk about that book, Jesus Feminist.

Jesus Feminist: Not Spiritual Bypass Or New Age Bypass To Overcome Abuse

Anne: What you thought and how feminist can help victims overcome spiritual bypass. And the ways people are trying to get victims to use spiritual bypass or new age bypass. And how can we avoid that? Especially because so many women, and many men, have a negative reaction to the word feminist.

For some reason, I haven’t quite figured that out, and maybe because of their religious upbringing or their political views. I don’t think that it’s a political word, but some people do.

Tracy: Yeah, it’s the radical idea that women are humans too. First of all, my own experience growing up was much what you just described.

It was an absolute aversion to the word, to the point that I never did any due diligence. And even learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say.

Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist.

Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass

Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. Feminism gained popularity due to secular work and scholarship. But the line between sacred and secular is manmade, because God is the source of truth.

Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world.

No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide.

The Radical Notion Of Equality

Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too.

Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously.

When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way.

Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical.

Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. Yeah, the pendulum can’t swing far enough. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough.

Tracy: I love what Sarah Bessey says, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me”

Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men

Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. She also talks about that moment on page 111. She’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma.

And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes.

And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass.

Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to think about why. I want you to consider the gas lighting that has taken place that would say feminists are bad. Who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Because I think if you think about it, you’ll realize this. This gas lighting effect by society in general and also men in general to try and say, no, women cannot be equal to men.

Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy.

Patriarchy & Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. It took me a while to come to that. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way they like to make it work within patriarchy?

Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact.

Anne: And when you say patriarchy.

Tracy: The hierarchy, yeah. Men are legally in charge, they make the laws spiritually or religiously rather. And like, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted, as you said before, as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way.

You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either.

Even though I believe they are a creation of men. I don’t think that’s helpful. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it.

Can Spiritual Bypass Mean Oppressive Gender Roles?

Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. And they can define these roles. And so they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. Not for other people. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. And if you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing it, let’s say in a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. This is a form of spiritual bypass.

Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work.

Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it, right. The answer is, huh, interesting. Neither of us like it that much. How will we manage these household tasks that need to be done?

Protecting Women’s Choices For Their Lives

Anne: The other thing I’ve been thinking of lately is that you can work and be a mom. I’m not saying you should. Many women would prefer to stay at home. We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. And if you’re talking about household tasks, many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating.

So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous.

But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do.

Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either.

Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook.

Working Out Marital Tasks To Avoid Spiritual Bypass

Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor. Sorry, it’s your only option.

Tracy: Right, she has these traditional household duties. Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that?

Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now.

So, has she fulfilled her own dreams, talents, and things she’s interested in? She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. She has ignored spiritual bypass that told her this is your role.

Deciding Our Own Role & “Biblical” Womanhood

Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy.

Tracy: It is.

Anne: It can be anyone’s job.

Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care.

It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it?

If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this.

Anne: From your experience, what do you feel like is Biblical womanhood after studying this?

Tracy: It’s coming to an intimate relationship with God, with Christ, and standing in my own truth, honoring my own spiritual path.

Jesus Defends Women’s Choices & Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before, but first of all, Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says the daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple.

He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her. And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass.

Then you’re not being the right kind of woman anymore. One more example is she talks about Mary, the mother of Jesus. On page 17, she quotes Rachel Held Evans here, but she says her worthiness is in her obedience not to a man, not to a culture, not even to a cause or religion, but to the creative work of a God who lifts up the humble and fills the hungry with good things.

Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, you should bypass painful things, right, spiritual bypass.

Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass

Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayers would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism.

Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It’s a, we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.

They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.

Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. This is spiritual bypass

Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will give you a pulpit, and we will let you speak, and we will applaud you, because it’s coming from the mouth of a woman, and she’s so spiritual.

But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged. The man has more authority, this is spiritual bypass.

Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard

Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, they complain they’re being abused and that no one is holding the abuser accountable.

That is something that is totally in line with most churches. Most churches say they do not tolerate abuse. They will not stand for abuse. Most societal people say that, right? Abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe.

Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote.

Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later, but the second wave referred to themselves as the radical feminists, and that’s who I actually identify with more. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along.

All we want is to say, men, you need to live up to the same standard. It wasn’t, we think men are awful. It was, we expect more of you. And when men resisted that, when society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem, as too extreme, as asking too much.

Women In The Workforce

Anne: Yeah, so I want to encourage women listening to start getting informed about feminist issues. And consider that the best thing you can do for women is get yourself to safety and security. On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce for a second. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something.

Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or whatever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges.

I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. You can have a grownup career as an attorney or doctor. As an architect, whatever it is, just because you’re a woman doesn’t mean you need to take a low wage job.

Tracy: I agree.

Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass

Tracy: I mean, we see more women in these fields than we used to, which is good. I’m happy for that, but even still, like, I mean, I’m not even 40. As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. I remember wanting to be an architect, like all these things you named, and I wanted to be a writer.

But when it came down to it, as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. There was limitation there. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me.

I was encouraged to go to college and get an education, and I appreciate that I did that. But still, the way it was talked about, I felt great limitation. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that.

Anne: So that you can fill the measure of your creation.

Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that.

Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence

Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. This is also a form of spiritual bypass. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience.

I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to add to all of the difficulty of their situations.

Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent for so many years. And then a time comes where they need a way out, they want a way out, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. It adds so much more difficulty in getting out.

Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible.

It’s Never Too Late

Anne: And that’s what I want to tell women is that you might think you have lost your chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late.

Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you.

Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it says a wonderful example for your children.

Can Avoiding Spiritual Bypass Mean Honoring Choices?

Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well.

I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. And I was the one that could get a job easier at that time. It was during the economic downturn in 2008. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me.

I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do.

Supporting Women’s Choices

Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose.

We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is.

Tracy: Yes, just another reminder for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism, that feminism is not a niche. It’s not a small or a catch all if they’re not all cut from the same clock.

You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. It’s, you know, if that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word.

Women Deserve Peace & Safety

Anne: As we embrace the term feminist, it can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass.

This podcast more than anything is for women’s empowerment to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety.

That is what women deserve.

Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If he uses pornography, you need support. Here’s what the research tells women to do when he uses pornography. Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife.

You deserve support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

4 Ways To Find Support When He Uses Pornography

• Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast
• Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session
• Meet with a BTR Coach for an Individual Session
• Call a safe person to share your feelings.

No Matter If He Uses Pornography, You Can Choose Emotional & Sexual Safety

Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your partner’s secret pornography use. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task.

Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”.

Transcript: He Uses Pornography, I Need Support

Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men with compulsive pornography use or other compulsive sexual behaviors.

Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome.

Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here.

Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here.

Research Focus: Religious Women & Betrayal When He Uses Pornography

Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there?

Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands use pornography. When it comes to pornography use for religious men, what’s going on with their wives?

We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead.

So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad.

Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of sexual compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land.

As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery, that he uses pornography. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles.

From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through when their husband uses pornography. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process.

When He Uses Pornography: Understanding Religious & Cultural Scripts

Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave.

Before the discovery of that, their husband uses pornography, sometimes even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her sexuality, her faith, and her relationship with God.

Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic in relation to pornography.

https://youtu.be/bV3mhCAOAOA

Innocent Beliefs & Their Consequences When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma.

They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s pornography use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret.

Their husbands were clear upfront that he uses pornography. But most of the time they let her know that this isn’t a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all the sex we want. So the desire to view porn isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away.

Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution.

Heidi: Marriage will be the solution,yes.

Marriage Myths & Realities When He Uses Pornography

Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his pornography problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first.

Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses pornography ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of her husband’s pornography use. Or the discovery of how problematic it truly was.

But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender and sexuality, and God, really influenced their understanding of pornography at this point.

When He Uses Pornography: Naivety vs. Faithfulness

Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right?

Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes.

Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful.

Heidi: That’s a good point.

Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.”

Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut.

So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders.

Religious Leaders’ Influence When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in the sexual arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing.

So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband.

Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about pornography. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified.

Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, sexual coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education about sexual coercion, rape, abuse, that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry?

There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it.

Lack of Education On Abuse & Sexuality When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had had many years of pornography under their belt by the time they came to that point. And the pornography was their sex education, and there’s just a big dissonance.

Anne: Sexual abuse is their sex education.

Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy sexuality. Because many times in religions, it’s like no sex. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like.

And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the sexual relationship.

Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important, positive behaviors of sexuality. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context.

Rape & Lack Of Choice When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have sex”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison.

Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you.

Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom.

Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts.

Rebecca: A lot of them, sex was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely sexual abuse.

This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything.

Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape.

Trusting Without Trustworthiness When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, physically, and sexually vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion.

They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid pornography. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship sexually would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power.

Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent.

Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have sex with him, he’s going to be angry.

When He Uses Pornography, It’s An Abusive Situation

Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why pornography use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation.

And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study?

Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of sexual relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no.

Anne: Well, that’s what I see too.

Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just pornography. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it.

Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no sex. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right?

The Crisis Stage Begins When You Learn He Uses Pornography

Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis.

Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at porn and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff.

And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did

She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse.

Out Of Boundary Behaviors

Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of sexual behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right.

Anne: There’s boundaries or something, yeah.

Rebecca: That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me.

Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances.

Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing.

Anne: She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse.

Rebecca: Yeah.

When He Uses Pornography Recognizing It’s Abuse

Anne: What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now.

Rebecca: I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how sex starts to not happen as much or at all.

Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship.

So that can look like doing sexual acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways .

Discovery That He Uses Pornography& Its Traumatic Impact

Rebecca: And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening. This might happen in a relationship where maybe he was honest that he viewed pornography prior to the marriage. Then he’s said in the marriage, I’ve been good.

Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes women discover pornography. Sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing pornography and masturbating. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time.

Heidi: It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine pornography as something that would appear in a porn magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses.

Rebecca: A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon the pornography her husband had been viewing. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers.

PTSD & Objectification When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way.

The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is sexually engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body.

Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important.

We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or sexually compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma.

Trying To Find Safety When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors.

When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense.

Anne: That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop.

Heidi: BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of sex with him to try to fix that.

That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery.

Anne: Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough sex.

Heidi: Right

Feeling Silenced & Shame When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has a pornography problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman.

There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough sex with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest.

I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her.

When He Uses Pornography: Pressure To Keep It Secret

Rebecca: So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women.

That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame.

Anne: How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse.

Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point.

Anne: Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything.

Heidi: Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them.

Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful.

The Aftermath Of Betrayal

Anne: Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah.

Rebecca: So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent.

And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed.

Questioning Faith & Trust

Rebecca: Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier?

I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him?

Anne: Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere?

Heidi: I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis.

Anne: They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe?

Caught Off Guard

Rebecca: I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe.

There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life.

And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard.

There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, pornography viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch pornography sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined with his viewing of pornography.

Spiritual Experiences Amidst Crisis

Rebecca: Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know that pornography could be such a problem. So even those women raised in a climate where pornography was tolerated still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting.

Anne: Yeah, that makes sense.

Rebecca: Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures.

Heidi: All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on.

I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband.

Heidi: Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true.

Anne: Well, and they should in that moment.

Heidi: Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real.

Anne: He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal.

When He Uses Pornography: Ignoring Gut Feelings

Anne: I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on.

They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy.

Heidi: And that’s a big thing that we heard.

Anne: He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it.

That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they see that porn. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful.

Developmental Lens

Heidi: Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed.

Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience.

Anne: Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice.

Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it.

Heidi: Yeah, they had no comprehension.

Coping Mechanisms & Seeking Safety When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more sex. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of sex, or whatever the sex was, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things.

Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women.

Heidi: It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses.

Rebecca: As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it.

Anne: And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety.

Rebecca: Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it.

When He Uses Pornography: Handing It To God

Rebecca: And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband when he uses pornography. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God.

Heidi: Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it.

Anne: Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance?

Heidi: Right. I can’t control what has happened.

When He Uses Pornography, Stage Four: Healing

Heidi: So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, when he uses pornography, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence.

Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about pornography or sexuality, and they felt so much shame.

So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on pornography addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience.

They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and getting ahold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal.

Support From God

Heidi: Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them.

Anne: Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that?

Heidi: I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations.

Anne: So it’s hit and miss.

Heidi: Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders.

Jewish Woman’s Story

Heidi: One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman.

And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed when her husband uses pornography. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden.

And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful.

And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately.

Learning About Abuse When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage. Was as the women learned about almost anything, but especially when he uses pornography, compulsion and addiction from a scientific perspective.

Or about betrayal, relationships, or sex, or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore.

Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children.

Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement.

Other Ways Of Healing When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage when he uses pornography. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse.

Anne: You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse.

Heidi: No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having sex with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right?

Anne: Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality.

Heidi: So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior.

Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency.

Spiritual Trauma When He Uses Pornography

Anne: And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment when he uses pornography. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests.

It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think.

Heidi: Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice.

Women Being In Sacrificial Roles

Heidi: And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave.

Anne: Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish.

Heidi: Exactly.

Anne: And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that.

They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous.

And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently.

Spiritual Abuse When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about sexual and emotional abuse, when he uses pornography. But I would say perhaps spiritual abuse is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on.

Rebecca: I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home.

Sexual abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who sexually abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about.

Anne: Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting sexual coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader.

And you need to give him sex whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, sexual harassment training?

Rebecca: While some of them have zero training,

Anne: I know.

Rebecca: That’s a part of it.

Anne: But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice.

Uneducated Advice When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses pornography. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay.

And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer.

Anne: Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week.

Rebecca: I wanted to add that he is not only in that position, but also that a church leader encourages you to stay in a situation unsafe for you. But I think the real abusive part is where they have power over you and give you advice. Knowing that you see them as an authority. And they’re giving you advice that goes against your spiritual feelings, whatever you feel like God has told you.

So I think that subversion of your relationship with God is pretty damaging. And that to me is the most sinister part. Many times, they’re ignorant. They probably are not meant to be. putting you in an unsafe position, but their lack of knowledge harms women so much. It is problematic.

Domestic Abuse Education

Rebecca: And they are usually the first people women go to. And sometimes the only people they talk to when he uses pornography. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else.

Anne: I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse?

What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition.

It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does.

And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know.

Grace For Ignorance When Learning He Uses Pornography

Anne: Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something.

Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now.

Transformation Stage

Heidi: The fifth stage is transformation, and that’s where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action. They have changed these previously held beliefs, and now they’re going to do something about it. They start to see themselves in a very different way.

In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much, when she learned he used pornography. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same.

Initially, those words felt un-fixable, like everything was broken and would never heal. And at this point, she says, nothing is the same. Speaking of her own identity and her own love for herself. The women start to feel like they can be genuine, honest, and vulnerable in their relationships. Especially with those friends they made in support groups.

They spoke about healthy sexuality and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality.

The women spoke of that. I know I want to learn about healthy sexuality. I know it’s more intimate and spiritual than what I was having in this relationship before. Most women stayed in their religion. But during the crisis, and specifically the aftermath stage, where they deconstructed some of those religious beliefs that weren’t serving them. That made them more vulnerable.

Reconstructing Beliefs After Learning He Uses Pornography

Heidi: At this point, they reconstructed a simpler belief system where religion became the scaffolding. And their relationship with God was central. So, rather than religious rituals and beliefs being the center part of it. Their relationship with God, or their spirituality is what we call it, was all based upon their relationship with God.

They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was.

A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together.

And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion.

There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors.

One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care.

Experiential Learning When He Uses Pornography

Heidi: She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home.

It had no running water, no electricity and no windows. She was cold and had hardly any money. But that was symbolic to me of building herself. She loved that home and it became a safe place for her. She was able to see what she was really made of. And what she could do when she took control of her own agency. More women spoke out about their experiences. They found their voices.

They often helped other women speak out against pornography in their churches. And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that.

To have true intimacy, we have to know ourselves. They started to see life as completely different and God as completely different. And use their voices in powerful ways, and use their agency in powerful ways. That sums up that model in those five stages. But through the five stages, they align closely with many human development stages in literature, and experiential learning is learning that we never forget.

And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels.

Anne: I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. When he uses pornography, I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that.

Power Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group

Anne: I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman.

It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too.

Heidi: I think that’s part of the value of having groups. They can see women going through the same thing, when he uses pornography. And see, maybe a year down the road or maybe six months down the road. I’ll be in the same position she is right now. And we found that groups were a big part of what gave the women hope. Seeing, okay, if I stick with it, and if I learn about boundaries, it will be better. They could see that in the women in the same group with them.

Rebecca: And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves.

Rebuilding For The Future When He Uses Pornography

Rebecca: Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single.

For some women to trust that they could see themselves, like rebuilding a house, like the story you told Heidi, that they could take care of themselves and be happy in that future. I think that’s hard for some people to envision right in the midst of a loss. It’s such a huge loss. Because it’s not only the loss of someone you loved and devoted years of your life to. But it’s a loss of, I would say, the dream that we try to co-create with our partners.

And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about.

Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and sexual safety?

How do we learn to set boundaries when he uses pornography. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe.

Safety When He Uses Pornography

Anne: My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. When they find out he uses pornography. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need.

Rebecca: Safety is the foundation for any relationship that’s going to be intimate. So if you’re intimate without safety. That’s where you can get manipulated, because you’re vulnerable. You’re right, making sure safety is first present. Otherwise, you’re vulnerable to manipulation and abuse. So having safety as the goal, it’s a great place to start for any relationship. But it is the starting point. So you can’t skip that step.

Anne: No, many people are like, Oh, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, sexually, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar.

Heidi: That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity.

Important Work To Do

Anne: I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you.

Heidi: Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women.

Anne: I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much.

Rebecca: Thank you for having us, Anne.

Heidi: And for all the great work that you’re doing.

Does your husband promise you that he will do anything to help heal your marriage from his betrayal, lies, and emotional abuse? Then then doesn’t do anything? “I fight for our marriage, but he doesn’t follow through,” said Kirsten, a member of our community.

Does this sound familiar? We’re here for you, learn about our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Transcript: Why Won’t My Husband Fight For Our Marriage?

Anne: I have Kirsten on the podcast today. I know her personally, and she’s amazing. She’s a member of our community. She is a divorced mom of four, and she’s also an incredible artist and writer. Who likes to write to explore being a real human being breaking through destructive personal and generational patterns. And how handling hard times with humor can make life more palatable.

Kirsten strives to not take herself too seriously. To help balance out the very serious things she’s been through in her life with humor and art and other modes of coping. We’re going to talk about a phrase that she invented. I’m not going to let the cat out of the bag. I’m going to let her set up what this term is and then we’ll have a discussion about it.

So can you talk about the background of this term, first of all?

Kirsten: So a little bit about my personal backstory. I had been about 17 years into my then marriage, and we were about a year into an in house separation. And working on him trying to recover from his sex addiction. And me trying to recover from 17 years of long term premeditated and fairly disturbing mind games and lies and betrayals.

What Is “Meatloafing”? When He Says He Will Fight For Our Marriage

Kirsten: We were doing an in house separation, and he said that he would do anything to fix the damage that was happening in our marriage. And I believed him. I wanted to believe him when he said he would fight for our marriage. One night he came down from his bedroom that he was staying in and asked me when I would drop my boundary of him Not being able to initiate any physical touch in our marriage.

I reminded him that he had not followed through with the task that he’d been given by his therapist and by our religious leader. That my personal therapist had suggested that I may even need some really specialized sex therapy to be able to heal. To get back to that point where I’d be comfortable being physically intimate with him.

He asked me how long it would take for me to do this healing. And I said, I don’t, I don’t know. Six months? A year? I don’t know. He let me know that that was too long. That my boundary was impeding his recovery. So, that’s kind of when I knew that that marriage was over.

I’m a pretty visual thinker. I’m an artist. I have a brain full of all kinds of ridiculous cultural references. When he said that, I could see in my head this video and song that came out in the early 90s from this rocker, Meatloaf.

https://youtu.be/qpinvaj-q2A

Why Won’t He Do This One Thing To Fight For Our Marriage?

Kirsten: He did this ridiculous video called, I will do anything for love. And I could hear his voice in my head. You know, I can do anything for love, but I won’t do that. I just started laughing and walked out of the room. I’m sure that it appeared very rude to him, but I just, the ridiculousness of it. You know, 17 years of really awful behavior and damage, and he couldn’t give me this. This one thing that I was asking for him to do.

I’m in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, and one day a woman said her partner was not going to do the thing that she had asked him to do. To be able to receive healing in their marriage. That came back to my head and I said, Oh, he’s Meatloafing you.

Of course, you know, I often forget that I’m one of the older members of the community. You probably have to be over maybe 35 to kind of get that reference right away. But he said, what are you talking about? And I said, don’t you remember that song by Meatloaf? I’ll do anything for love, but I won’t do that.

And that just started a whole entire thing of hilarity where we made up memes about Meatloaf and what he would and wouldn’t do. It was fun. And we need the laugh, quite frankly, things can get quite heavy in the community at times. They are all saying I will do anything to fight for our marriage, but in reality won’t do what it actually takes. But it’s a really appropriate term to describe the way that sometimes when addicts try to keep all the things.

I Want To Fight For Our Marriage: When Abusers Use The Meatloaf Technique

Kirsten: Why wouldn’t they? They have a loving partner and a family, they’re taking care of all their stuff. Then on the side, they also have their addiction and whatever life they’ve built around that. They’ll say, “I want to fight for our marriage.” To be able to try and protect that dual life and that addiction.

So you can’t really listen to the things they say. You know, I mean, this meatloaf song is like eight minutes long. It’s ridiculous. I mean, he just goes on and on and on about all these things that he’ll do for her. He’ll go to hell and back. He’ll do, you know, I mean, it’s just, the video is hilarious. And not to mention that, by the way, he’s a monster in the video, but when she gives him love, he turns into a man.

Anne: Oh, wow. The Beauty and the Beast. scenario. Does it ever say what the thing he won’t do is?

Kirsten: Well, in actuality, of course, the song doesn’t really mean that. Because what he means is he won’t cheat on her. He won’t forget her feelings. He’ll do all these things. And then she comes in on her verse and she says, are you gonna cheat on me?

Are you gonna hurt my feelings and break my heart? And he’s like, I won’t do that. So in actuality, the song’s not really as bad as it sounds when we made the meme out of it. But you know, we all have that line in our head from the song, if we’re old enough.

I Will Do Anything For Love, But I Won’t Do That

Anne: Yeah, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that. A woman in our community, she got her young daughter’s ears pierced in like January? And I don’t know, four months later or something, she sent her daughter to her ex’s house. They were these really expensive stud earrings. And he lost one of the earrings and then he wrote this email that was like this five paragraph manifesto about how could they improve communication and what could he do, “To fight for our marriage?”

He would do anything to help out, you know, that kind of a thing. She wrote back and said, pay $20 for Sophie’s earring. He wrote this big rant about how he never consented to her getting her ears pierced. There was no way he was going to pay for the earring. But he didn’t bring that up back in January when she had her ears pierced.

So he was like, I will do anything, but there’s no way I’ll pay $20 for a lost earring. And it’s funny the things that they won’t do. When they say, “I want to fight for our marriage.” Well, they won’t do what they don’t want to do is the thing.

Kirsten: Right. You know, when you speak about serious breaches in trust and contract of a partnership, which, most of our members are married and their partnership is a marriage and, you know, the onus of healing, the broken trust is on the person that broke the trust.

I Tried To Fight For Our Marriage Using Boundaries

Kirsten: So, as the offended partner begins their healing process. And they start to gather their strength and their dignity back around them. Also they have a community that builds them up, they learn about boundaries and they start to put those in place. They’ll begin to set healing tasks and limits on the allowed behaviors for that offending partner.

This is not an attempt to control the partner, this is their attempt to try and stay in the relationship. This is their attempt to “Fight for our marriage.”

Anne: To establish some safety.

Kirsten: Exactly. I mean, because they’ve now realized. That all these things have gone on. My first reaction when I found out the true depth of the betrayal, that had happened in my marriage, was to just leave.

I was done right then. But my attempt to be able to feel safe enough to wait to give him some time to heal and fix his problem. Was to have boundaries in place. That’s the only way I could stay. I wasn’t trying to control him as a person. I just needed that. You know, I needed that for myself. I wanted to fight for our marriage.

Oftentimes the offending partner will profess with all kinds of words, all the things that they’re willing to do. They feel so bad. I’ll do anything I can to fix this. But when they’re actually put to the test, they refuse to engage. They refuse to follow through. That just goes to show you that the old adage that you watch their feet and not their mouth is true.

Anne: Like the, I would do it if you wouldn’t bother me about it. You’ve heard that one before.

He Said He Wanted To Fight For Our Marriage But He Acted Like He Didn’t

Anne: Where they’re like, I was about to do it, but now that you reminded me, I won’t be doing it on my own. So just let me do it in my own time.

Kirsten: I don’t like it when you act like my Mom. You’re taking my dignity away. Let me do this in my own time.

Anne: In their own time is never. They’re only saying that to avoid doing the thing.

Kirsten: Why should they get to do anything in their own time? They’re the one that broke the contract. They’re the one that broke the trust. They are the one’s who should fight for our marriage. They really should do anything. I mean, you know, within reason. Most of the women in our community are pretty healthy people. They’re not trying to use this as an opportunity to control their spouse or their partner.

Anne: No, they’re looking for safety and they’re looking for truth. In your situation, did you ever consider your situation to be abuse while you were in this place of knowing about his sexual behavior. But thinking maybe he could get into recovery when you’re kind of thinking of him as an addict?

Was there ever a time where you were like, wait a minute, I was abused this whole time?

Kirsten: No, it never really crossed my mind. See, one of the things about my situation is I was married before this marriage, very shortly. For 18 months and it was a very abusive, destructive marriage. So to me, anything that wasn’t that was better.

When Victims Begin To Set Limits & Boundaries, Abusers May Start “Meatloafing”

Anytime I start to feel like something might be wrong or my body was like, Oh, I’m uncomfortable. If I would bring it up to my spouse. He would say, yeah, you’re right, something is wrong, you need to go to therapy because you’re broken from your first marriage. I became the kind of person that would just completely take all of it in on myself.

I was sure that everything that was wrong in our marriage was my fault. It wasn’t until I was in my therapeutic disclosure, and this is after a surprise dump disclosure, I thought I knew everything. But after a therapist had helped lead him through. all the things, which, you know, turned in from a five page thing to ten page disclosure.

When I heard some of the very specific things that he did that were so twisted that my brain starts to say, wait a minute, only crazy people do this. Like abusive, crazy, like you see in the lifetime movies, kind of people. Even then, it still took me a good year, year and a half to accept the fact that I was actually severely abused for many, many years.

Anne: Why do you think it’s so easy? Well, not so easy, but easier for women to recognize abuse when they’re in a relationship, like your first marriage? Where the abuse was really obvious compared to how long was your second marriage?

Kirsten: By the time the divorce went through, we’d been married for 20 years.

I Wanted To Fight For Our Marriage, I Couldn’t See Through The Fog Of Emotional Abuse

Anne: So compared to the second marriage, that was 20 years where the whole time, You’re in this fog of abuse, but you can’t see it, and you’re trying to wrap your head around what’s going on. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to see this second type of abuse?

Kirsten: Well, I’ve never considered myself a person that could be abused.

I’m not stupid or weak. I’m quite sassy and strong willed. I never thought that anything like that could ever happen to me, and it was very subtle. Very, very subtle and not only that, but I grew up in a family and in a religion where I was groomed. Some people don’t like that term, but it’s true. To turn over my knowing and my will to the patriarch of the home, the husband, the leader of our church, that’s what a good woman does.

So my natural ability to kind of say, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Just over the years really was squashed. So, you know, never in my brain until like a therapist or a podcast or something would say, Hey, this behavior is abusive. Would I ever think, Oh, you’re right. Putting that label on it, which seems extreme to a lot of people and they really kick against it was enough to clear my brain up from the fog to start to look for more truth.

Anne: Yeah, you mentioned a lot of people kick against the term abuse, especially within the context of sex addiction. Why do you think so many people are unwilling to say, if you’re in a relationship with an active sex addict or an active porn user, you are in an abusive relationship? It is an abuse issue.

He Says He Want’s To Fight For Our Marriage But He Sees Me As Subservient

Anne: Why do you think so many people don’t want to go there?

Kirsten: Well, there’s a lot of shame around anything that has to do with sex. People don’t like to talk about sex. They don’t want to be real about sex. They certainly don’t want to talk about anything that has to do with abusive behaviors and sex. The level of shame will make it so people don’t want to talk about it at all.

Let alone slap a label of abuse on it. There’s all this cultural misogyny. That a woman should do what her spouse wants her to do. Her needs should be subservient to her spouse’s needs. Even things like a woman shouldn’t enjoy sex, or she shouldn’t have to worry about feeling safe because it’s just a duty that needs to happen in a marriage.

With all this cultural baggage and all these things generationally that we’re dragging with us as women, it’s just something that we wouldn’t even consider unless it’s, you know, a violent rape, say. You know, but in a marriage context, I mean, we’ve had women in the community that didn’t even realize until they heard somebody else talk about it. That they actually were raped in their own marriage, when I had that experience.

And you just don’t understand what’s going on. You have no context or words for it. You don’t have the vocabulary for it. We weren’t taught that until you get into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and learn . The verbiage that you need to be able to start clarifying those things in your head.

Abusers Don’t Think to Ask For Consent: They Feel Entitled To It

Anne: What helps you realize you were raped? I’m guessing multiple rapes.

Kirsten: Well, yeah multiple times. I didn’t understand my body’s fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. I didn’t understand the trauma response. So, I didn’t recognize that those times when I didn’t want to be there doing what he wanted. I would just leave my body so that I could make it through it.

That that was something that would be considered a rape. And there was one specific situation that involved a big production that he had put together almost like a movie. A play that he wanted me to play out. With notes and letters and this big thing where I had to go here and do this and then here and do that. And da da da and ended up in a hotel room and it was a horrendous experience for me.

Somebody had mentioned, hey, this thing happened to me, I think I was raped by my husband. And I was like, wait, rape? That’s rape? And it just hit me. I was like, that is what I was experiencing that night. I left my body so I wasn’t there, and let him do what he wanted to do. But I didn’t want to be there.

I had not given consent for that experience. But I didn’t know how to say no. I didn’t know I could say no.

Anne: Yeah, and for someone who thinks they’re entitled, to sex from their wife because she is an object or she is subservient, then asking for consent is not even on the table either.

Humor and Validation Help Victims of Betrayal & Abuse

Kirsten: Right. If you’ve lived most of your marriage in a place of trauma where you didn’t ever speak up and say, I don’t like this or no, I’m not doing that.

In my case, my then spouse considered that I was into it. You know, he never stopped to question that I might not enjoy it. And he was so good at building up fantasies in his head that he wouldn’t probably have seen or cared to see, that I wasn’t really fully giving consent.

Anne: We have so much that we’ve learned through these experiences and hopefully sharing it can help other women

Kirsten: Yes, and when you learn that, you need things to help you be brave. You need a community around you of women who understand what you’ve gone through. No one has to try and explain everything to them because they already know.

You need people that you can laugh with. I mean you can’t just go over to your next door neighbor and make a joke about marital rape. You can’t do that. It’s totally inappropriate. But sometimes we need to laugh. The absurdity of our situations will hit us. And it’s all you can do. I mean, if you can’t laugh, you’ll die.

If you need to be able to have that picture of Meatloaf singing in your head. While your spouse is trying to give you all the reasons why he can’t do this one thing that you’ve asked him to do. To try and fix the damage that he did, to be able to help you get through that without going crazy, you need that. He’s saying I want to fight for our marriage, and you can see through his actions that he’s not going to.

Processing Abuse Through Art

Anne: Kirsten is an incredible artist and I want her to talk about her art. And how that has helped her process her trauma and heal from what she has been through.

I had the opportunity to go to her art show with my Mother. We spent, I don’t know, maybe two hours. We spent so long there because every single painting was so touching to me. I read the descriptions and I just sat and pondered it. We didn’t want to leave. We just wanted to stay there and it was one of the best experiences I’ve had viewing art. It really spoke to me, and helped me process my own trauma.

Having had that experience with your art, able to view it and process my own trauma and interpret it in different ways. Can you talk about your art and what it means to you and how it helped you?

Kirsten: You know, sometimes we think, Oh, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what was happening to me. I have all this trauma stored up in me and I didn’t know how to process it. But the human mind is incredibly flexible and, you know, very able to defend itself against trauma in any way that it can. For me, a way that I didn’t realize, I was doing that before I find out anything about what was happening in my marriage was through art.

Victims of Abuse & Betrayal Deserve Safe Spaces

Kirsten: I was processing the things that were happening in my life through art. I initially had gone to school to be a children’s book illustrator. That’s what I thought I wanted to do. I love that still, but I found myself being drawn to doing a lot of really angsty and introspective self portraits. I laugh sometimes because I think, what am I, a narcissist?

That word is thrown around a lot. I just keep painting myself over and over and over again. I don’t know if you know anything about the artist Frida Kahlo, but she did a lot of self processing through her art as well. A lot of self portraits. I don’t know if I would say that I’m as amazing as she was. But she’s kind of my guide as far as just going ahead and doing what your heart tells you to do as an artist.

The first self portrait that I did was right after my first divorce from my 18 month marriage, and it was surprising to me how cathartic it was to paint the feelings I was feeling. To get them out onto this canvas. That continued through the years. My entire getting married again, being a young mother, and through a very toxic marriage.

I would do these self portraits. Usually, I would have a dream, and the image would be in my head when I would wake up. Then I would go through the process of doing sketches, taking pictures, preparing the work and then making it. I’d always feel better afterwards. I didn’t really realize what I was doing.

In My Fight For Our Marriage, I Didn’t Realize How Much I Needed To Heal

Kirsten: Now looking back and having had so much education about , abuse and learning more about trauma and what it does to the body and the brain. I realized that I was releasing a lot of trauma into my paintings. In fact, sometimes I laugh and call my paintings horcruxes because I feel like I’ve cut a piece of my soul out and put it into the painting.

But usually the things that I leave in the painting are things that are good to be leaving. So it’s just a really important way for me to journal my life, to express my feelings and to get something out of my soul.

Anne: I’d like to talk about a couple of specific pieces, if you don’t mind. One of them is this incredible painting of you in a nightgown with a halo in a dirty bathroom.

I really wanted to talk to you about this because I have had so many dirty bathroom dreams. Where I’m in like a stall, the toilet’s overflowing. There’s dirty water on the ground, the sink is overflowing, and it’s just disgusting. I have to figure out how to go to the bathroom in there. This is a recurring dream that I’ve had. And when I saw this painting, I was like, this is straight out of my dream.

I don’t know if this was one that you had a dream about as well. There’s also a chicken in it and a candle.

Kirsten: This was the first painting that I did after my therapeutic disclosure that I went through with my now ex husband and our therapist. When I wanted to fight for our marriage.

The Fight For Our Marriage Was In The Art

Kirsten: In which I heard all the things, all the things that had been happening in my marriage for 17 years. I had read online a call for entry to a show in which they were asking people to do theme specific artwork. It was for a gallery that was in LA and the name of the show was Waterline. They wanted women artists to do works about water and its effect on their lives. I never enter a show that isn’t local, I wanted to be brave.

I kind of had my fists up in a fighting mode after finding out all these awful things. And so I was thinking about what I could do for the show if I was going to enter it and I had a dream that night.

That I was in a old, dirty and for me it wasn’t a bath, it was actually, an abandoned psychiatric hospital. Like from a horror movie, you know, with broken tiles and the old school look of the industrial in the 20s and 30s and drains and yucky, dirty water everywhere. I was, covered in mud with the lines from floods.

You know, when there’s a flood, how it leaves a line of debris on whatever, the building or the edge of the creek or something. There’s a flood and they’ll leave these lines and each line, you know, progressively went up what was representing different traumas that I’d been through in my life. The fight for our marriage, was in those flood lines.

Imagery Of Abuse

Kirsten: It was as if I was there, you know, the, the image already existed. It was created, if you will, spiritually in my head that night. I got up the next morning and I ran to the thrift store and I found a nightgown and I went outside and started dumping myself in mud so that I could take photos to, to draw from for this painting.

And just the process of actually preparing the reference photos, getting this nightgown muddy, getting my arms muddy, taking the pictures was incredibly important to me. It would, if anybody filmed it, be considered a piece of performance art that went along with the painting. But you know, it was a private experience and not something that I wanted documented for everybody to see.

Then when I start putting the imagery together, I had to include a chicken because I love chickens and they’re my girls. So don’t try to ask me to explain it, but the chicken’s like my spirit guide. So that was one of my hens, Penny, my hen, and she was in the painting.

I also included a prayer candle, like you would find in a Catholic church at the altar, I like to use a lot of old Renaissance imagery in my artwork. I just like it. So I put a halo around myself because I felt like not toot my own horn or anything, but sometimes when you go through really traumatic experiences. Especially when they last for a long time, it changes you.

Saints & Drowning In Someone Else’s Filth

Kirsten: Those experiences can be sanctified by your healing. You kind of feel like these old saints, you know, there’s a saint for everything in the Catholic church. There’s a saint for everything. A saint for moving, a saint for people that drown in water, a saint for being killed by an arrow on the back of a wagon.

I mean, anything that you can think of. And, and I’m like, yeah, I feel like I’m the saint in my fight for our marriage, toxic marriages or something. So that’s why I included that imagery and it just came pouring out of me. I got the painting done really quickly. I sent it to the show. It did very well there. I’ve won several awards with it. It’s kind of like an icon for me.

Anne: St. Kirsten

Kirsten: Yeah, right..

Anne: Yeah, it was very, I don’t know if shocking is the right word that I would use for me. But because it just spoke to me so deeply of the imagery that I had experienced in my dreams. It’s interesting that the experience of this type of abuse, the details are all different for every woman, but this feeling of we were almost drowning in someone else’s filth.

In a place where we should be safe. Like, yours was a psychiatric hospital. That’s a place where someone should be helping you. You know, technically. In a bathroom, it should be somewhere that you feel safe enough to just, you know, relax, I guess. But instead of that, you’re drowning in someone else’s filth. It is kind of a sanctifying experience.

Unequally Yoked: A Symbol For My Fight For Our Marriage

Kirsten: It leaves marks on you. And those marks don’t go away. They can be transformed, but they don’t go away.

Anne: The title is Flood Damage and that really, really looks like that. It was amazing. There were so many, like every single one I could talk about. Especially your, what are the ones called, Japanese ones, where you put yourself back together with gold?

Kirsten: Kintsugi

Anne: Those really spoke to me. But the second one I’d like to really focus on is called Unequally Yoked. So this is a painting of Kirsten with a yoke and she is yoked on one side.

Kirsten: Yes, yeah. I have my neck in one side of the double yoke.

Anne: Okay. Yeah. And the other one is just empty and she’s pulling this by herself. This one too, it just, I mean every one of your paintings just hit me at my core. But this one I spent so much time just observing and thinking about and processing my own things. Can you talk about this one a little bit?

Kirsten: I did this painting, it’s probably my favorite painting that I’ve ever done, by the way.

It really speaks to me still. I did it in 2018. I was divorced and just start to get back into trying to date. It was a vulnerable time for me. There was a lot of heaviness and loneliness at that time. And again, I’m not quite sure why this happens, but I had a dream about this painting and woke up with the image in my head already.

Yoked With Abuse

Kirsten: So I couldn’t find a yoke to make the painting. When I did the reference photos, I put a very heavy beam of wood over my shoulders so that I could get that sense of weight and heaviness. I just have so much grief over the fact that I had two partners who were supposed to be my forever companion. In which that didn’t happen, and not only did it not happen, but I carried the brunt of the emotional work. I carried their shame. It was my fight for our marriage, and they didn’t try.

Now I carry the weight of being a single mom and trying to deal with the damage that’s happening to my children. I just felt it so heavily. I think that it just needs to come out in this image. And you know in the scriptures, Jesus talks about a yoke and he says that his yoke is is easy and his burden is light. That if you’ll yoke yourself to him, you can make it through the things in life.

But the yoke also connotes being tied to something. When you yoke yourself to something, that double yoke of the ox and team, you can’t move unless they’re moving. And if they don’t move, you have to drag them. So there was a lot of feelings and symbolism in that for me. Then I put fig leaves around in the background to kind of represent some things that I feel about partnership, the Garden of Eden and that story of creation.

Emotional Release With A Painting

Kirsten: Then I also added a, a wedding ring in the background. To symbolize the fight for our marriage. I had a ton of feelings come out while I was painting this painting. Many times I actually had to stop and put it away because I would just start crying and I couldn’t see the panel I was working on.

I would just have to put it away. But I think you can feel that when you look at the painting. One of the cool things about seeing artwork in life as opposed to just a picture online. You can really feel the feelings that were poured into a piece.

Anne: That is what is incredible about excellent art, is that you painted it and put in the work. But it seemed like it was painted just for me. And for all the members of our community who can imagine that feeling of being unequally yoked, and then having to carry the burden of the lack of a partner. We fight for our marriage, and they leave us alone.

I really appreciate your art and your talent. And so many women have gone through this and they’re, so incredibly talented and you are one of those amazing talented women. Here is her website so you can look at the paintings yourself www.kirstenbeitler.com

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Helps Victims Identify “Meatloafing” & Other Abusive Tactics

Anne: I would really encourage you to go take a look at her artwork. Hopefully it will speak to you as it spoke to me. Can you talk a little bit about how the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group has helped you to heal?

Kirsten: Absolutely. This community, this idea of community and sisterhood is one of the things. I’m not exaggerating that I say actually saved my life and my sanity. It started for me when I don’t know how this happened. I wasn’t looking for it, I was just online looking how to fight for our marriage, and then suddenly it was there in front of me.

It was a tender mercy from God. The loving compassion I felt because you all knew exactly what I was going through. I didn’t have to say anything or do anything. I am enfolded in love.

And from those groups came some of the best and truest friends that I’ve ever had in my life. They saved me. They walked with me through horrendous things. And I’ve been able to be there for them too.

Finding BTR filled so many holes in my heart because I didn’t feel like a freak anymore. I didn’t feel alone. There was at least one woman whose story was so similar to mine that I knew, okay, this isn’t just because of me. This isn’t just because of how broken I am. This is happening to other people too.

It was such a relief. It was such a relief to me. Not that you would ever want anybody to go through that, like you did, but just to know that it’s not because of you. I’m always grateful for the BTR community where something horrible is turned into something holy.

The Fight Four Our Marriage Led Me To Clearing Up The Fog Of Abuse

Anne: Yeah, it’s amazing how much our Shero community has evolved over the years. We’ve all evolved together to be like, that didn’t work, right? Like, Oh, he may be an addict. There’s no question about that. But what we were experiencing the entire time was abuse. We didn’t know that back then. Sometimes we fight for our marriage, and don’t realize how much we are suffering.

It’s so nice to come out of the fog and be able to define it and help other women so that they don’t have to go through the, you know, 10, 20 year process, seven, however long it was process of figuring that out. Figuring out how long to fight for our marriage.

Kirsten: Oh my goodness. And thousands and thousands of dollars worth of therapy and agony.

Anne: The cool thing is because we’re all together now and because we’re continuing our healing journey together. We are still evolving and we still don’t know what we don’t know, right? We still are there for each other and when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany.

The Fight For Our Marriage Turned Into A Fight For Women Experiencing Abuse

You know, it’s like, oh, why didn’t we think of that before? So it’s a really amazing community to be a part of, to see it evolve. Because our true desire is for safety, truth and peace. We are evolving to be more gentle with each other and more kind and more understanding. Yet also more fierce in our boundaries and more fierce in our belief in ourselves and what we deserve and that we are worth it.

So it’s, it’s a mix of like, amazing bravery and also this incredible vulnerability at the same time. That to me is just the most amazing army of healthy women who can help bring other women out of the fog of abuse.

Kirsten: Absolutely. You know, none of us are perfect. We’re all still learning. We’re learning from each other every day. There are so many people that have so many different opinions about everything, but still working together. To try and clear everybody’s mind, you know, “Should I fight for our marriage?” We can come out healed, and it can happen, and it does happen every day.

Anne: Well, thank you for sharing parts of your story and some of your talent, especially with your Meatloaf metaphors. And your, “fight for our marriage.” You’re amazing, Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Have you spent endless hours and countless efforts trying to find a therapist that knows and understands what you’re going through? Because the best betrayal trauma recovery groups are available online to help you. Read what Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Clients have to say about their experiences.

Transcript: How Do Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Help Women?

Anne: Women frequently, write to me about how they feel. Also what they’re going through, what they think of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and how grateful they are for my podcast and the services at BTR.ORG.

So today I’m going to share some of these messages with you. I’ll be reading them and then I also received some audio recordings from women so I’ll be playing those for you.

If you’d like to come on the podcast and talk to me, I would love to talk to you. So please come share your experience with me. If you want to do that, email [email protected]. Or if you’re shy and you want to share, but you don’t want to talk to me, (I don’t blame you if you don’t want to talk to me:), you can use voice recordings on your phone and email it to [email protected]. and then I can share it on the podcast anonymously.

It means so much to me to hear from you. I’m so honored to listen to your story and share that space with you. It warms my spirit to hear from you. It keeps me going. So thank you.

https://youtu.be/sV0BCL0RjuQ

Here’s What Clients Of The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Say

Anne: Let’s start with an audio recording I received.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #1: When I finally found BTR, my husband and I had spent over 10 years and $10, 000 in and out of couples counseling. Even though my husband was unfaithful, used pornography, and chronically masturbated. They looked at our issues as a, “couple problem”. The multiple therapists we saw had years of experience. But they knew nothing whatsoever about betrayal trauma, sexual integrity issues, addiction, or emotional abuse involved.

In fact, my husband was able to successfully gaslight one therapist to the point where he told me. That if I would become a, “safe person,” my husband would quit lying to me. I bet you can guess the result.

Yep, my husband lied to me again, and again, and again. In fact it was never about me. So thankfully, everything turned almost on a dime the day I read an article on gaslighting from BTR. This was one of the biggest aha moments of my entire life. Overall it was almost as if I could hear the angel singing in the background as 26 painful years of fog began to lift.

The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Get It Immediately

Client #1 continues: I immediately set up a coaching appointment with one of the BTR Coaches. Then for the first time ever found someone who got it immediately. I didn’t have to convince her, educate her, or prove a thing. She understood exactly what I was going through. Because she had been there too.

After years and years and thousands of dollars spent on traditional therapy, I finally found someone who understood exactly what I was going through! She named it, educated me, and provided the support and contagious courage needed to become empowered to stop the abuse.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #2: These groups of amazing women represented different stages of discovery and grief cycles. We came from various backgrounds and bonded together to find solutions to the challenges women face.

After the initial shock of disclosure and abuse, when we were unable to make sense of reality. When I recognized that the feelings attached to the experience of trauma are universal in nature. But there are some unique heightened and very personal pain points around this particular addiction. I was able to sort out truth from fiction and find coping tools.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Helps Victims

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #3: I was desperate for help and searched the internet for answers. Then I came across info on gaslighting. So this is what I’d been experiencing in my marriage for 26 years. And there’s a name for it! It was literally a mind blowing revelation for me that led me to the BTR website where I went on a podcast binge.

I listened to everything I could get my hands on. Then the fog of gaslighting began to lift. And with the help of one of the coaches, I gained the courage to set some significant and appropriate boundaries. Honestly, I thought I had had a pretty good handle on the subject and didn’t expect to learn much more.

Was I ever wrong! What I thought I knew about gaslighting was only a drop in the bucket. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups were very informative and practical with examples. Also in a safe situation with feedback and encouragement. If you’ve been betrayed, chances are gaslighting is a significant part of your story as well.

Why Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Are Essential For Healing

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #4: These aren’t your cookie cutter Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups with an unmovable agenda. There isn’t one way to approach the challenge of boundaries. Sex addiction is real. So treat yourself to this healing experience. Transcend the past, move past the crazy, and stand in your own truth in sisterhood.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #5: The BTR community is amazing. Because in the support groups, everyone gets it. There’s no judgment. They don’t re-traumatize you like some therapists do. I truly feel that everyone who participates validates our experience. They offer very helpful feedback and suggestions.

Everyone is a wealth of information. Additionally I get great resources, all sorts of different pieces that I would not have necessarily found on my own. Also I appreciate that people will share what has worked and also what hasn’t worked for them.

I really appreciate the ease of use. Because there are many different times during the day. That you can connect with the coaches and with other group members.

Online Support Group Help Women Heal From Betrayal Trauma

Client #5 continues: The response is really quick if you want to make an appointment. You don’t have to wait, and you don’t have to travel. You can do it from your computer. Especially for women with kids, the ability to quickly get an appointment and not have to find a babysitter. You can, you know, toss a movie in for an hour and get your needs met.

Get that validation and that help that we’re all so, so searching for. So I strongly suggest people try it. The fee is nominal. It’s much less than you’re ever going to find anywhere else. You can use as many groups as you want during the month, and I think it’s probably the best investment you can make in your healing from betrayal trauma.

I’m a huge fan and I love the style, the program and the model.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Offers Insight

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #6: BTR has been such a validating and positive experience. The process has given me the courage to face some of my demons regarding triggers. It has also given me clarity about my next steps and ideas about how to improve my relationship. I have a clearer idea of how I want to integrate this whole nightmare into my life in a really positive way.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #7: BTR has been life changing for me. It challenged me out of my comfort zone, and encouraged me to make the hard choices for the betterment of my family, and out of love for myself. I’ve been deeply impacted by hearing of the other ladies struggles and victories. As well as being able to learn from their stories and journey.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #8: When I was first introduced to BTR, my world had turned upside down. I was lost in overpowering emotions. The BTR coaches guided me to discover peace and advocate for myself. Thank you for Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions and for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I have found a place of healing and strength.

Get Help With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #9: Thank goodness I found BTR.ORG! The coaches are just wonderful. I was really desperate when I found BTR because I was fed up after going to three therapists in a row who didn’t get it.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups are so fulfilling themselves, but the individual sessions with the coaches are also wonderful. Everybody is so kind and and helpful and gives me a lot of hope about what I’ve been going through. Thank you.

Anne: Here’s one from a woman in Colorado.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #10: He was charming, handsome, and a doctor from three generations of physicians.

I had a nice job with two great sons. My life was full. I didn’t see it coming. Things started out great, slowly transforming into emotional game playing, crazy making, and gaslighting. I was blind to his pornography addiction, and abuse until he had a heart attack and couldn’t hide it anymore.

After strategic planning to get to emotional safety without family or a support system, the emotional turmoil and trauma came tumbling out. I’ve spent hours of therapy and reading to research my own issues of letting go. This has been my life for the past six years. I finally found BTR and it has been my lifeline. I write this with much gratitude and appreciation.

Healing From Betrayal Trauma Starts With The Right Support

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #11: I just happened to find The BTR Podcast in the midst of finding out my spouse had been lying and cheating. Again, actually number six that I know of. During the deepest, darkest moment of my life. Words can’t express how listening to the podcast truly saved my life.

It made me feel like there are others out there. I wasn’t alone. The words of encouragement, education, support, and knowing that the situation is for real. I wasn’t crazy, it was so comforting. After searching the BTR site, I noticed BTR had services that could help me personally. I decided now was the time and attended my first Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

Words truly can’t express how this experience helped in my life. I also joined Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Each story and experience shared was helpful. From the others touch my life in so many ways. I received so much encouragement, education, and knowledge from other women. It will forever be a part of my life.

I wish I would have found BTR sooner, but I know it was simply in God’s timing to bring this organization into my life. I look forward to continuing individual sessions. Thank you, BTR and Anne for everything.

Work Through Your Trauma In The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #12: BTR helped me to calm down and refocus away from my problems and onto finding a genuine solution so that I can move forward.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #13: BTR coaches are in tune with the needs of victims, learning about them and intuitively recognizing details. And proactively offering creative and innovative solutions.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #14: BTR Group Sessions provide support, validation, empowerment, education, organization, consistency, safety, confidentiality, respect, kindness, acceptance, and love.

I don’t use those words lightly! BTR Group Sessions and all of BTR has been a lifeline for me that is indescribable. Thank you so very much. I like the fact that I can get help from home. As I am unable to travel outside the home. The coaches provide helpful feedback, insightful feedback. They are knowledgeable, kind, patient, and have helped me to stay grounded in reality.

The group members provide much needed community and validation. BTR has been a godsend that I can share what I’m going through with other women that understand. It’s amazing.

The Best Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Help You Process Trauma

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #15: Hello, Ann. I just felt I needed to send you a letter of encouragement and gratitude. I heard about BTR through one of my dear friends. That I met doing an intensive with her sex addicted husband.

After the five day intensive, I felt confused and alone, especially when I came home to our small town with no support. I followed the 12 Step program and joined a program with our church. Then the leaders shut it down. I wanted so badly to recover, but I had no support group until I found you, and BTR!

My marriage had been so painful and so crazy. I had no idea what gas lighting was, or that I was in a full on abusive relationship. My boundaries and self worth were low. Even though I presented myself as strong and confident. I lost my voice. Since finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups and the amazing BTR coaches, I’ve grown and discovered my inner strength and true voice.

Thank you for what you are doing. Also thank you for the love and time you pour into this ministry. You are a beautiful, glorious woman, and I hope to meet you in person someday.

The Right Support Will Help You Find Their Voice

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #16: I stumbled across BTR and fortunately attended a Group Session. And was privileged to enter one of the, emotionally, safest places ever held for me. Since my world was turned upside down.

The time I have shared with BTR since has been filled with compassionate truths. And an endless amount of space and safety. The times I have felt the most alone and afraid, the BTR coaches assured me that I am no longer walking through this journey alone.

You provide personalized recommendations that fit me so perfectly. And tailor information to fit the individual client. Thank you. You have changed my life.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #17: I was told about my husband’s sexual addiction in 2015. We sought professional help right away. He seemed to be in recovery. But it wasn’t until the summer of 2018 when I discovered BTR. I finally heard someone describe what I was living through as gaslighting! And there was something I could do about it. I’m not typically a person to sign up for things. But after listening to the BTR podcast, I recognized I had more to learn.

I scheduled an individual session with a BTR coach. I realized my husband had not been sober and I had been emotionally abused. Then during a critical period, just before my husband moved to actively cast me off and discard our marriage. During the period when he rapidly ramped up abusive behaviors. The BTR coaches were there with me with incredible empathy and profound insight.

The Right Support Is Immediately Empowering For Women

Client #17 continues: In a few hours, they validated my pain and taught me more about gaslighting than most people would know in a lifetime. They helped equip me to manage a situation that was about to rapidly unfold. Unlike beginning with a new therapist, I didn’t have to spend hours giving background. The BTR Coaches already understood what was going on in my heart and in my home.

Gaslighting, DARVO, and emotional abuse were huge topics that had not been addressed in traditional counseling. Also, the podcast covered topics that I found extremely helpful. I listened, pausing, jotting notes, then printing the transcripts of some episodes. This material deeply resonated with me and I used parts of it as a script to identify what I needed for safety.

Thank you for what you do. You are making a difference.

Anne: I am so grateful for the women who are brave enough to share their insight and to send their stories. Thank you for being a part of our community. I’m always looking for victims stories . If you’d like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email me at [email protected]. The more we can share and get stories like this out into the light, the more it helps all victims everywhere.

If your in-laws enable emotional abuse, you’re not alone. Tragically, this is an extremely common occurrence for victims. Tanya shares her heartbreaking story of living through financial, physical, and emotional abuse – all while her in-laws enable her abuser.

If you need live support, learn about our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Transcription: When Your In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too

Anne: I have a member of the BTR community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Tania. I recorded this a few years ago.

Welcome, Tanya.

Tanya: Thank you so much for having me.

Originally, I’m from Africa, but I moved to Canada when I was 16 years old. And I was young, my first time living without my parents. In our culture, we’re not supposed to marry out of the African community. But he was a football player. He moved to Canada from Africa to play a minor league, and when we met, it was pure bliss to meet someone like him. Because I came from a society that men are very, I can say, machos.

Peer Pressure & Relationship Continuation

Tanya: I had a couple family members involved in a very abusive relationship. And for me, it was easy to recognize, but I couldn’t break it off right away. Because it would be like dumb of me. So I had to get to know him and see what was going on.

Anne: When you say dumb of you, why did you think at the time it would be dumb of you to break it off?

Tanya: Because I thought that I didn’t give him a chance.

Tanya: I had friends around me also that were like, you need to get to know him better so that you can make that decision. So I felt like because of the peer pressure that I had around me.

Anne: So people are saying you can’t just judge him right off the bat. Because you need to get to know him better. How does it progress from there?

Tanya: At that time I was only 18 years old. Also it was the first time living in a different country by myself. I was just like, okay, I can make my boundaries. Because I’m not married to him and he’s not really like my boyfriend. Additionally I have my apartment and I don’t have to go to his house.

https://youtu.be/UD5nwqHXjuo

Long-Distance Relationship Challenges

Tanya: But that summer, he got laid off from football, so he had to move back to the United States where there is another league that wanted him. I just felt like, yeah, he’s moving back to the United States. Also he’s an American. I just thought, yeah, our relationship is done.

I don’t have to pursue that relationship anymore, but we reconnected again and we start dating. Then he decided, oh, do you want to come to visit? I said, yes.

I just felt like, oh, I can rescue him for some reason, I just thought like, I can talk to him. Maybe influence him in a better way because the difference between me and him in what I felt like it was too wild. He was a football player, but I just started noticing differences amongst our values and whatever I believed about family.

When I came to visit him here in the United States, I just told him, I don’t, think this is going to work. One, because I’m just starting to see that our personalities don’t really go together.

First Major Incident Of Anger

Tanya: And right away I saw this anger come out of him. I couldn’t believe so I grabbed my phone and called my friend. I said, he is angry. In fact he shows anger that I don’t think I can deal with. My friend said, again, I think you’re judging him for just one time situation.

You are in his country. So you should chill out and calm down. He’s a good candidate for marriage. He would speak to my friends about marriage, saying he would like to marry me. That I’m a good person. That he likes me because I am not like this American woman. Instead, they’re more into material things, and I’m very grounded. So my friend said, you know, I think you should try it.

First Major Incident Of Physical Abuse

Tanya: He asked me to marry him. My friends threw a big engagement party. I left my job, left my apartment, my car, I moved to the United States.

And that time his friend was also married with a woman from Columbia. She said, oh, let’s go to brunch. When we were at the brunch, it was only two hours. We took a long time to come home, because our car stopped and we were looking for someone to help us see what was going on with the car. He was calling me, was calling me, was calling me. It took us three hours to get back home.

As soon as we get back home, he pushes my phone. Then he throws the phone on the floor and grabs my computer. After that, he throws the computer on the ground. So everything is broken. My friend said, Tanya, what are you going to do now? Because you already accept this man proposal. So now do you want to return to Canada? What’s everyone going to say?

Anne: Where’s your friend from

Tanya: A couple of them were Canadians.

When Your In-Laws Enable Emotional Abuse

Anne: Would you say, where you’re from in Africa, that this was a cultural thing? That men just get mad and it’s no big deal?

Tanya: It’s pretty common, but it depends also on the family you came from, because my family were not like that. Meeting him and his family and seeing the manipulation. Especially the way they speak and silent treatment. Then I already knew that this marriage was not supposed to happen. Because it was something I’ve never experienced, and it goes back to pornography.

Pornography: Abuse In & Of Itself

Tanya: Pornography was something that I never heard, not in my house as I was growing up. Even with my friends in Canada. Because we never spoke about pornography.

But when I returned to the United States, he had invited me to my in-laws home in Chicago. Then sleeping downstairs in their basement, he had pornography. Because he wanted to watch, I was shocked. And then I said, no, your family is from Africa. How come you have pornography inside your parents’ home?

Coercing the Victim Into Viewing Pornographic Material At In-Laws Home

Tanya: This is not supposed to happen. I was so shocked that he had something like that inside his parents’ home. But I guess he was hiding, and he’s like, let’s watch. I said, no, I cannot watch it. Because I’m a Christian, so I can’t watch it.

He was very angry again. He said, There are so many women that would like to be with me. because I’m an American football player and I played for NFL. Including this team, also that team. And do you know how many women would like to be in your place right now? You’re telling me no? It’s just sex.

I said, no. For me, it’s not just sex. If we’re married, sex for me in a marriage means something different. No, I cannot do this.

And we broke up. We stopped talking for three or four days. But mind you, I’m already here in the United States. We’re already preparing for this marriage. What will I tell people that I’m breaking up because of pornography? Because I found pornography in his parents basement? I felt like everyone around me was just trying to invalidate me? Because I found this guy that plays NFL, I guess it is a big thing.

And I also noticed that he was able to get me as an African, I guess, humble and naive. That would bend to whatever it is that he wanted to. And the abuse was not just based on just pornography. It escalated to almost everything, not just from him, but also from his family members.

Her Emotionally Abusive In-Laws

Anne: So his psychological abuse, isn’t just coming from him. But he’s also roping your in-laws into emotionally abusing you and coercing you.

Tanya: Exactly. The emotional abuse from my in-laws was, How can you speak up? Who are you? How dare you go out there and speak up? This is our son. He’s been doing so great. He plays football so well.

He’s successful. You’re supposed to be lucky that you have him in your life. Now you’re coming to us, telling us that he’s abusive, that he calls you names. That he takes stuff away from you. Because he took my green card. He took my Canadian citizenship. He would take bank cards. Throughout our marriage, I did not have access to any finances.

Anne: So you ended up marrying him, then.

Tanya: This time that I left him would be my third time leaving him.

Anne: So talk about the first couple of times you left.

Tanya: The abuse was also from my in-laws. I would call my in-laws, I said next time he asks me to do any kind of sexual behavior that I don’t want to. I’ll call the police. Because how can I have sex with my husband, and he calls me the B word? I’m not going to do that. And when I started speaking up, the family didn’t like it. My in-laws emotionally abused me by blaming me. They would say, “No, it’s you. You have a big mouth. You speak too much.”

Sexual Coercion & Leaving Involving In-Laws In The Abuse

I went upstairs and put my son to bed. Then he says, “You have to know that this marriage is between me and you. And if you want me to be closer to you, you have to understand. There are certain things that a wife should do.”

I said, “What?”

He says, “First off, we need to start with sex. If you can give me oral sex, I can go downstairs and speak to my mom to stop.”

Anne: Wow, so sexual coercion right there. Yeah, in that moment he’s sexually coercing you.

Tanya: And I left him. My son was only three months at that time. He wasn’t calling, he wasn’t contacting, which for me was fine. Because I have already gone through so much with him. And no support around me.

In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Convincing Victims to Stay

Tanya: His dad calls me. I completely understand what you’re talking about. I want to apologize, but we are Christians, and you have to understand you guys are married. We don’t believe in divorce. And I don’t want you to raise a son without a father.

I promise you that I’ll take him to a counselor. He’ll do therapy, and I’ll be beside you. I just don’t want you to tell anybody. Please come back, I am here and I’ll support you. I said, I don’t want to come back. Because it’s been almost a year, and I haven’t seen any support from any of you. I feel like you guys are blaming me for whatever is going on. And I don’t even understand what was going on. That was the first time, and they begged, and he asked, and I came back.

In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Accusing Victims of “Ruining” the Abuser’s Life

Tanya: Three months after me being back, he was starting again, verbally abusing me. It was just a cycle, verbally abusing me. No one will believe you. You just came back from Canada. I know it’s something with you. You want to return here to destroy my career. I said, but your dad promised me. So I stayed for another three years.

Anne: Yeah, that’s common. My in-laws emotionally abused me by telling me that I was trying to ruin her son’s life. And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m trying to save our marriage. But the in-laws accusation, You’re trying to harm our son.” Is what a lot of in-laws say.

Tanya: My in-laws said, I was trying to destroy his career. I was trying to destroy his family. But it was because he was having an affair with a woman from his gym. And not just one. There was multiple.

Anne: And your in-laws knew about the abuse and they still blamed you?

Tanya: My in-laws knew about the abuse. His mom blames me. He would watch pornography in front of me. He would sleep outside the home.

Sexual Coercion Is Easier For Abusers When In-Laws Enable It

Tanya: He completely isolated me from everyone at this time. Now, I wasn’t even able to contact my family members. Because I started to feel so ashamed.

So my family practically, they wash their hands. My in-laws enable him to continue to abuse. I was home with my son, worried about COVID. He had this cough that we’re afraid of. It was so congested. And he wouldn’t give me the car keys or money to take my son to the hospital. That day, he came home at one o’clock in the morning. Me and my son were sleeping, and he comes upstairs. He didn’t take a shower, and he wants to jump in bed.

And I told him, no, you can’t. My son also looks at him and says, “No, you can’t”. And he says, This is my home, this is my bed, I’ll sleep here. I said, No, you can’t. And I stood up off the bed, and as I was walking, he came behind me. He starts doing like sexual movement. And I push him.

And he calls me B word the S word. Nobody wants me. Nobody likes me, I am nothing. Look at me znd look at him as a football player. Everybody wants to be with him.

I said, go, I don’t care what women would like to be with you. But I will not stand you talking to me like that anymore. Never again, not in front of my son. And he says, listen, tonight we’ll see who’s going to live. My son started crying, and I grabbed my son. I went to another room and closed the door. I run outside and he comes behind me.

Incident Leading To Arrest

Tanya: He grabs my night down and pushes the night ground, and I grab a picture frame and throw the picture frame in his head. He calls the police. The police came in and they said, what happened? I start to explain, and he says, even my son saw her throwing the picture frame on me.

Anne: So you are arrested for domestic violence after being abused consistently for years. What happens next?

In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive By Shaming & Guilting Victims Into Staying

Tanya: In jail, I felt this peace coming over me. I know God took me out, of the situation. Because all these years, I was not ever, ever able to explain to anyone what was going on. When I went to church, I told them, “Listen. This is what he does sexually.

This is what he says. Yes, I am his wife. But how can a wife have sex with her husband that does those things? That calls her names. How can I do that?”

Everyone that I went to, they were like, “You have to try. You have to save your marriage.” The more I tried, the more he was abusing me. In fact the more I cleaned the home, became more submissive, and dressed up, he was more abusive. I didn’t speak to my family. The more I didn’t go to his place of work, the more I stayed home. Anything I tried, it was abuse.

To the point where I was starting to develop hives all over my body. I was starting to develop anxiety. Anyone who would come to my home and knock on the door would have these panic attacks. When I went to jail, everything stopped. I stayed in jail for three days. I didn’t have any panic attacks.

Finding Help To Get On My Feet

Tanya: When I came out of jail, I didn’t have a place to go. Because again, he isolated me from anything that I know, everybody that I know. I couldn’t go home.

One of the moms called, and she told me, I want to invite you to bring your son. Let’s play soccer, go to the beach. Let’s do something. I said, please help me. Also, I just came out of jail and she says, where are you? I told her where I was. Right away, she came to pick me up. And took me to her home. I stayed there for almost a month.

After a month, I had to find a place to go. Shelters helped me with food and lawyers. Also people that I can talk to to help me with my case. I’m here, I haven’t gone home yet, and our case is still going on. He was fighting to take custody of my son for almost a month. I wasn’t allowed to see my son. My lawyer actually helped me recover the custody. So now we have 50/50.

Anne: Okay.

Tanya’s Current Living Situation

Anne: You’re staying in an apartment with the help of the domestic violence shelter now.

Tanya: Yes, and since I have been here in this apartment, he’s been trying to contact me. He’s telling me he doesn’t want to get a divorce, and that he’s sorry. He’s telling me that he doesn’t know why he has been behaving the way he does. But I still have this confusion in my head. Outside, everyone sees him as this wonderful man.

He’s a coach. He’s a leader in our community. He volunteers at my son’s school. He helps his clients develop this positive attitude about themselves. About their bodies, minds, and soul. But at home, he was so disrespectful to me. That I lost myself.

Confusion & Grooming Tactics

Tanya: After me going to jail, for me to be where I am, for him to say he wants to go back with me. That he doesn’t want to get a divorce, I am still confused. I am still lost.

Anne: Well, he does not want to lose control. When he says those things, that’s grooming. He’s trying to groom you back to be with him. Because he does not want to lose control over you.

Tanya: Yes, I’m not important to him, because he has never done anything to make me feel important. He thinks that I am only worthwhile to take care of our son. Also have sex with him, clean the home, cook, and do whatever he needed to do with me.

Anne: So in this confusion, are people helping you see through that? Because it is a really hard time to think, maybe he does care or maybe he will change or something like that, and that’s a dangerous time because he’s never shown any evidence of doing that. Is it easy for you to see it as grooming, or is it still so traumatizing and confusing?

Seeking Support & Counseling

Tanya: I’m speaking to a counselor, and she’s helping me. She’s saying, listen, you can’t speak to him. You can’t return to his home or gym. You cannot speak to your in-laws. He has a restraining order on me.

Anne: Despite that, he’s contacting you to try and get you to talk to him?

Tanya: He’s the one who’s contacting me. He’s the one who calls me. He invited me to a staycation and wants to buy me stuff. He keeps asking me if I need anything. I blocked him from my phone, but he’s still wanting that communication. And another part of the confusion just comes, maybe this fact of me going to jail. Maybe something clicked in his mind, and me filing for divorce, I keep going back and forth.

Thoughts On Abuse & Survival

Anne: These similar thoughts go through every woman’s head who is faced with this. Do I just put up with the abuse? What alternative do I have? Am I going to be homeless? Am I going to have my son? However, you are not crazy. The only thing that these types of thoughts prove is that you are a victim of abuse. This is how victims of abuse think.

Tanya: Yeah, I have a seven year old and I have nobody, and I just filed for divorce. I have no finances and depended on him. I wasn’t allowed to take any courses, any going to school, any training, nothing.

For almost everything and anything. So I am very sure. Because I know my lawyer told me that he denied my request for child support and alimony. So I’m sitting down here and still waiting. Until when will I continue to live in a shelter? Now, my question is, do I return to Canada? And even if I return to Canada, am I going to take my son with me?

I cannot continue to be in a shelter having 50/50 percent of custody. I don’t have financial means to take care of my son. And you have to remember I don’t have my green card in order to get a good job.

Trying To Pick Up The Pieces

Anne: What does your lawyer say about the circumstances right now?

Tanya: She’s helping, trying to regain all my documentation that he has taken away from me. He actually insists I should go and take a psychological evaluation. When he asked for my son’s custody. He wanted me to do that. My lawyer said no.

Just the simple fact that she doesn’t have her documentation. And all this year, she hasn’t been able to go see her family. There are proofs. So no, we’re going to continue to support you. We’ll continue to listen to you. And we’re going to get something for you to survive, for you to help your son.

And I think this is where he knows. That I am that vulnerable that I’m going to want to get help from him. So that my head would go back. And say, oh, listen, I don’t have anyone here and life is really hard out there.

Anne: Yeah, you’re in an extremely vulnerable situation, but you can get out of it.

Plea For Support When You’re In-Laws Are Part Of The Problem

Anne: It’s going to take time and effort, and it’s so hard. And probably seems impossible. But I just want all our listeners who are listening to pray for Tanya? She needs us. She has nothing and needs our help. They do have family, they still feel that sense of like nobody believes me. I can’t figure out how to fix this. And they feel stuck. So that feeling of being stuck is something that’s familiar to all of our listeners. We can empathize with you.

Tanya: But I think the impossible part is that I feel like nobody’s listening. No one is listening. No one cares that no one wants to believe me. I also feel like, should I even pray? Because the times I went to church and spoke to them, and having counseling in the church. They kept pushing me back to that place of abuse. I keep having that picture of him masturbating in front of me, of him completely disregarding me in that way.

Anne: That’s extreme sexual coercion, psychological and emotional abuse that you’re experiencing. It is mind boggling to me that people think that pornography is not an abuse issue. Or that their husband’s pornography use does not affect women. Or that somehow their infidelity is like just something that men do. Also, that it’s not an absolutely debilitating abuse to their spouse is crazy to me.

Most Harm From Sexual Abuse

Anne: It’s interesting to me that in telling your story, you’ve been verbally abused. You’ve been psychologically abused, you’ve mentioned that several times. So one of the most traumatic things for you was the pornography. And people might be like, well, that wasn’t a big deal. He punched you. And you’re like, the thing most traumatizing was the sexual abuse.

Tanya: It’s because I feel that if it wasn’t the sexual behavior. Meaning the infidelity, watching porno, just having a woman at his disposal. It was the main aspect of the abuse. Because if I have access to these porno women, if they’re looking in front of me. Then when I come home, what do I need you for, but to be angry with you?

Not to respect you, to call you the names that I can call you. I really do believe the sexual for me was a very, very big thing. Very big part of my abuse in my marriage. I really do believe that.

I came across your podcast listening to all the stories and they resonate with me so much. That my in-laws enabled the abuse.

I feel very sad and lost. But, I believe I will come out of this strong.

You’re Not Alone

Anne: There are thousands of listeners to this podcast. And so just little old you, little Tanya, who thinks no one is listening. And that nobody cares, you’ve now just told your story to thousands of women.

You’ve listened to us on the podcast. We’ve been this, hopefully, light in the darkness, but in this moment, right now, we’re all here with you. I hope you can feel our love and support. Across the world, we are here with you in sisterhood and we will hope that God provides a miracle for you.

Because not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. Not having any control over where you’re living, no money and no support system. Is a completely overwhelming situation. But I do know that God sees you. He’s listening now. He loves you and we love you. You have to fight.

Tanya: Yes, yes, it is. It is crazy and it’s scary and it’s lonely. But I do have my son and I do have this podcast that I have been listening to and it just made me feel. I am not alone.

Anne: You are incredible and brave and strong. You are amazing and I’m proud of you for coming on this podcast and sharing your story. When you don’t have a happy ending, yet.

Tanya: To anyone that is listening. I don’t want to go back to that man. I would like to have my son with me. To everyone, send me that energy. That strength and courage to please make me be strong. Not to go back in the hands of that man. Because I never knew rest until I went inside of that jail. I’m asking to please pray for me.

Tender Heart

Anne: We are with you. We will pray for you, Tanya. Thank you for being so brave and sharing your story.

I want to thank everyone for listening. My heart is really tender right now. Not just Tanya’s story, but the mini stories that I’ve heard. And if you’d like to spend time with women who get it. With women who can sit with you in pain and totally understand. Because they’ve been in a similar situation.

Please attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group session. You can attend one today. We built our BTR group sessions for this situation. So no woman out there. It feels like she’s alone. It’s the least expensive, appropriate option out there. And it’s unlimited live support multiple sessions a day. In every single time zone. We’d love to see you in a session today.

If you’re experiencing narcissistic abuse, know that you’re not alone. Here are 5 ways to spot narcissistic abuse – Rachel shares her story.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Transcript: 5 Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse

Introduction To Rachel & Megan Wilford

Anne: I have Rachel and Megan Wilford on today’s episode. They are cousins, and they also recently started podcasting and their podcast is called the Traumedy Show. Which is of course, a mix of trauma and comedy. Welcome Rachel and Megan.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having us. We’re so excited to be here with you.

Megan: Thank you.

Narcissistic Abuse: Discovering A Secret Life

Anne: When I first found out that my husband was using pornography, and that he had this secret life that I didn’t know about, we just had a baby. I think if I not had children, then my life would have taken kind of a different turn at that point.

But because I had a child. Also because he was saying, I’m going to go to a pornography addiction recovery. I thought okay, I’ll try and work this out because we’ve got a kid.

Comedy As A Coping Mechanism For Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: Anyway, instead of, starting podcasting about that at that time, I actually started a comedy blog called Coming To Grips.

I got a lot of followers, which was fun, but I never wrote about what was actually happening. So I was processing my pain through the lens of comedy. I think a lot of comedians do that. I’ve since pulled it from the internet. When my book comes out, I will be simultaneously publishing my comedy blog. So people can kind read them side by side, to be like, okay, this is what was really happening. And then this is how she was kind of . . .

Megan: Processing it.

Anne: This is the public face that I was showing online. I was telling people in person, but I wasn’t really publishing online about it.

The Traumedy Show Came Out Of Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: I love what you just shared about using comedy to process what you were going through. Because that’s what we do too. I think we would say that we come from a family of traumedians. We have a big family and we all lean into dark humor and laugh a lot. We’re a bunch of jokesters.

When my life started blowing up, I definitely was leaning into comedy about it pretty quickly. The day that I left my ex-fiance, I started dreaming about what I could do with my whole story. Coming up with one liners about it. I was thinking about like a standup comedy set, just dreaming big.

Then I ended up getting into another relationship in the winter. About six months after, that also imploded in a similar way. And for about a week after that relationship ended, I was in this really crazy creative processing mode. Where I was writing all the time and I was so mad and all these words were coming to me.

Then all of a sudden I lost it. Like it was like a cord was cut and I started asking God, okay, where can I channel this now? So I started creating our podcast all day long, came up with the artwork, came up with the name.

I invited Megan over and sat her down and pitched it to her and she was down for it. That’s how the podcast came to be.

Anne: Let’s start with that.

Five Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: This episode is called Five Ways to Spot Narcissistic Abuse. So as Rachel tells her story, I’m going to flag the things that indicated, hey, this is a situation that is emotionally dangerous, that is psychologically dangerous. So I’ll be pointing those out as she shares her story.

Can you start at the beginning? How did your relationship start? Did you recognize any red flags at first?

Rachel: I would say that there were red flags from the beginning, but I started dating him really young. I was 17 and he was 20 and he was from my same hometown. We had never met before, but he friended me on Facebook. It was back in the day when everybody was just kind of friending everybody on Facebook.

But we quickly started talking and quickly started dating. I’m 29 now. I was with him for about 10 and a half years. Just as a spoiler alert, there’s two engagements in this story too, with him. Yeah, wait.

Anne: Can’t wait.

Rachel: Good. So, I would say pretty early on I started spotting lying and hiding things.

1st Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Making You Think Something Is An Accident

Rachel: He pretty quickly he put me and his ex in a group chat accidentally a couple of months into our relationship.

Anne: “Accidentally?” Do you think it was on purpose now?

Rachel: No. He had a lot of technological blunders over the course of our relationship. That kind of led to me finding things out and the demise of the whole thing.

Anne: Maybe that’s going to be number one red flag. I’m going to say here that they do things on purpose sometimes. And they make you think it’s an accident. That’s Not your case, Rachel. Sorry, I’m not trying to be like, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s not what I’m trying to say. In your specific case it was an accident .

Anne: But in general, they’re strangely the stupidest smart people or like the smart stupid people. Victims have a really hard time because they’re like, for how smart he is, why is he doing this? I want to just maybe throw out the idea that one of the things you can look for is that dissonance.

When you’re like, wait, if they’re so smart, why are they doing this thing? In so many cases, it’s actually on purpose to throw people off, to get people confused.

Teaming Up With The Other Woman

Rachel: This girl on our podcast, I call her Natasha and there’s more to the story with her. But since our podcast came out, she actually came on and I interviewed her. She reached out to me and she and I are now friends 11 years later. It’s pretty awesome. There’s a lot of teaming up with the other woman that happened since our podcast.

Yeah. So he puts Natasha and I in a group chat and so she and I have each other’s numbers. He sends a picture of him snowboarding and then a couple of months later, both to me and her.

Anne: So is he intending to send it to both of you? Who is the intended

Rachel: He was intending to send it to both of us, he didn’t have an iPhone. He had like a Windows phone. He didn’t realize that if you sent it in the same thread, it would go in a group chat at the time. A couple months later, it’s my 18th birthday and he cheats on me with her.

He drives down to San Diego to pick her up from the airport. The next day on my 18th birthday, I get a text from her. Since she now has my number that he came down, picked her up and made a move on her. And they kissed, all this stuff.

2nd Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: I’m Going To Give Him Another Chance

Rachel: I end up breaking up with him at that time. Then I ended up getting back together with him a week later. I wish that I never had. Staying broken up when you are a victim of narcissistic abuse would have been better.

Anne: This is a crossroads for you. What did he say to groom you to get back together with him?

Rachel: Good question.

Anne: Maybe this is another red flag. So number one, they do things on purpose when you think they do them accidentally. Number two, There’s a point at which you notice, hey, something really bad happened. But also I’m going to give him a second chance.

So many women have this story where they found out he was having an affair. Or they found out he was stealing money from them. Or they found out he’d hidden a camera in their bedroom or something like that.

Rachel: Yeah, he definitely was kind of promising me that it was nothing. She just was somebody that needed help. It was nothing. They hadn’t been talking, but she had said that he’d been sending her pictures and stuff this whole time. Texting her and communicating. In that conversation, he did threaten suicide when he drove away.

So I would say that you could think that maybe that’s a red flag too.

Feeling Stuck & Isolated: Results Of Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: So over the course of a week, I took some time apart and then I decided to give him another chance. You know, and this was 11 years ago now. I went off to college, the next year is my freshman year of college.

So we were long distance and then something happened to me while I was there. That I, you know, haven’t shared publicly, but it bonded him and I. It made it hard for me to leave for a long time. I ended up coming home from college and went to community college and he ended up coming home too.

We were both in our hometown again. I was working a job at Starbucks, going to school. I had an internship, and was very busy. Then I found out about a virtual affair he was having with an old friend of mine. I started noticing some suspicious behavior online.

Anne: An old friend of yours.

Rachel: Yes.

Anne: But not an old friend of his?

Rachel: No. An old friend of mine. Yep.

Anne: And I’m guessing he met her the same way he met you through social media.

Weird Behavior Can Be A Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: Yes, he told me that he met her because she worked at a restaurant in town. He went to pick up food and that was the first time that he met her. But he friended her on Facebook and Instagram and I started fishing around for information. Because I ran into her on campus one time, because she went to the same community college at the time and her behavior was super weird.

I was noticing weird online behavior and so I went searching and found messages between the two of them. And that was devastating and embarrassing and a lot of shame for me. Especially because it was somebody from my life that I had known and we knew a lot of mutual people. I felt a lot of shame about that, but I felt really stuck and like I couldn’t leave. This is a sign of narcissistic abuse.

Anne: Were you living together?

Rachel: We were not living together now.

Anne: It’s his fault that you felt stuck. We’re putting 100 percent of the fault on him. So this is not like a victim blaming question, but can you kind of explain that feeling of being stuck?

The majority of our listeners share children with their abuser. And so in that way, it’s very difficult to extricate yourself. So those of us with kids, when we hear people who don’t have kids saying they feel stuck. We’re like thinking oh, what was it? But then I want all the listeners to think about when you stayed with him, when you didn’t have kids. Like when you got married, we also were stuck at some point.

So to have empathy for that all around.

https://youtu.be/ZvQwP2Hzjfk

Blaming Problems On Self Instead Of Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: Yeah, and I totally empathize with people that have kids. With their abuser, it’s really hard to break away. I’m fortunate that that wasn’t the case for me. There were a few reasons that I felt stuck. I think this event that bonded us really tied me to him. He was a big support system for me. I considered him my best friend.

I think I really isolated myself during this time of my life and kind of removed myself from friendships. Because of this narcissistic abuse cycle that was going on with him. Because of this shame spiral that I was in from his infidelities. He was kind of my person at this time. Um, and also there was this sense of I just moved home with this person. We were kind of like starting this new chapter and journey together back home.

I don’t want it to all be for nothing. That I just left school and changed paths. I put a lot of the blame on myself because I had been depressed. Because of what had happened my freshman year of college.

He put some blame on me too. At the time of what you weren’t giving me enough attention and whatever. This happens with narcissistic abuse. So this becomes a pattern for the next eight years of our relationship. This becomes a pattern of, I need to work on myself so that I can be better and he won’t do these things.

This kind of is when I think this starts.

Anne: It’s my fault, and if I were acting differently, he would not be acting like this way.

First Engagement & Family Concerns

Rachel: Yeah, so a couple years goes by. And we get engaged the first time on a family trip to Machu Picchu. Actually of all places, he comes and he proposes to me on New Year’s Day. At this point I am 22 and I’m a senior in college. I’d been living down in San Diego, going to San Diego State for the past couple of years. I was about to graduate.

We were looking at apartments. We were planning our wedding and getting ready to start life. At this point there hadn’t been any signs of infidelity in a couple of years.

Anne: Is this with your family, like your parents and your brothers and sisters? Okay, how do they feel about him at this time?

Rachel: My dad had actually had a chat with me, a couple of years prior, that he was worried. And didn’t think that this person was right for me. He saw some signs that definitely gave him pause. And I think my family accepted him, but they didn’t love him for me. For sure.

Anne: What’s your feeling about your family feeling this way. Did it kind of accidentally bond you closer to him? Which it does with so many abusers. Because then it’s like well, it’s just you and me against the world sort of a feeling.

Rachel: Absolutely. That’s a really good way to describe it. It made me protective. I would say of him too. And yeah, accidentally bonding me closer to him. This kind of like fierceness of like, we’ll prove them wrong kind of a thing.

3rd Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Isolation

Anne: Yeah. So we’re going to call that number three. When something happens where you start to pull away from healthy people that care about you. Because this is narcissistic abuse. The isolation kind of starts.

Rachel: Oh yeah, I was definitely isolated. So we are planning this wedding. I’m about to graduate college and I graduate. And then all of a sudden his behavior starts getting really fishy and weird. He’s kind of just MIA all of a sudden. And one day I’m at his parents house with him. He goes to the bathroom.

I look on his phone and there are texts with him and a coworker.

He had at this point started an emotional affair, we call this person Grace. I’m distraught. We are at this point, like four months away from our wedding. We start going to couples counseling and all sorts of things.

I’m trying to make it work. I’m trying to hold together this image for my family and friends that nothing’s wrong. Ultimately it blows up and we call off our wedding, but I tell no one the real reason why.

The Downfall Of Couples Therapy & Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: When you started going to couple therapy with an abuser. Which we never recommend. But because you don’t know it’s narcissistic abuse, did the therapist help you realize this is narcissistic abuse?

Rachel: No, it made it much worse. I think we only went to a few sessions before we really kind of broke away from each other for a bit. She was treating it like premarital counseling. An issue would come up in this session and we would kind of blow up about it. Then we would leave because the time was up. Then we would try to kind of resolve it ourselves afterwards.

It would just make it so much worse. It just was this big snowball effect of things getting worse. Definitely the couple’s therapy exacerbated it for sure.

Anne: It always does with narcissistic abuse. So it’s never, ever, ever recommended. But most couple therapists don’t know about it. If someone’s not coming in saying I’m being abused, then the couple therapist doesn’t hear that. They don’t help the victim identify it. And if they did, they would have to stop being their therapist.

They have an invested interest in not identifying the narcissistic abuse for monetary interest. I’m like, don’t ever go to couple therapy. If your relationship is so bad that you need couple therapy. I’m like, 99 percent of the time there’s a narcissistic abuse issue. And you shouldn’t be going to couple therapy.

Rachel: There’s twice that we go to the couple’s therapy and it ends up helping our relationship blow up. Which is what needed to happen for me personally. So we break up.

Taking The Blame & Anxiety From Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: I tell no one the real reason why. I take all the blame because he was telling me at this time that I was selfish and I wasn’t giving him what he needed. He was questioning if we should get married.

I took the fall and told literally not a single person about his emotional affair with Grace at this time. I got away from him for about a month. Then one day he comes knocking back on my door and it started the whole process over again. I’m a writer, I’m a journal a lot.

At the time I was writing a lot and this was summer of 2018. There’s a handful of pages from right when I break up with him. My mind is clear and I know I don’t deserve this. I’m pointing out so many issues with him. Then he comes knocking back on the door. The rest of the pages of that journal are just anxiety, so much anxiety.

Starting Over and New Relationships

Rachel: For the next year, I moved down into an apartment with a friend and kind of just start over. I was having anxiety and panic attacks all the time because he and I were still seeing each other. But there was no label. He was very secretive, very emotionally shut down.

It was this battle of me kind of trying to get him to open back up. After a year of that, I end up starting to see someone else. At this time he and I weren’t seeing anybody else. Or so he told me, that he was just taking a break. He was taking time for himself. He needed to think about what was going on and just heal.

I was doing the same thing, but then I met somebody. And so I asked for permission and I kind of start seeing this other person.

Confusion & Anxiety From Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: You asked him for permission?

Rachel: I did. I ask him if it’s okay if I pursue something with this other man.

Anne: And he’s like, it’s fine. Even though you had no defined relationship, really. Are you kind of just friends at the time? Are you kissing him?

Rachel: We were still like being physical. We were still going to dinner. It was acting like we were in a relationship, but a lot of the kind of emotional connection was removed on his part at that time. I couldn’t really figure out why.

Anne: How often were you seeing him?

Rachel: At least once a week.

Anne: Once a week, but you’re not really serious.

Rachel: So it was a lot of anxiety for me.

Anne: Do you want it to be more?

Rachel: Yes, yes, yes, I do. I want to figure it out. I’m dealing with the shame of my failed engagement and calling off the wedding. I had this whole picture for my life and I felt like this was my person. We just needed to figure this out and work through it.

Motivations For Dating Someone New

Anne: So what are your motivations for dating the other guy? While you’re still being physical with the wolf and seeing him once a week ?

Rachel: Yeah, the other guy we call Jack and I think I saw him as maybe an out. He lives a handful of hours away. So he wasn’t close necessarily. We weren’t seeing each other all the time, but I kind of saw him as this like escape. And maybe the answer to getting out of what I was in. I felt super stuck and super confused.

Rachel: I just kind of wanted to explore, like, what else was out there? And see if maybe this could be the answer or a different path or something, Or maybe in a way to, I was hoping that it would make the wolf think he wanted to be with me for sure. And get more serious and be a little bit upset that I was with this other person, even.

Anne: The motivation is like twofold. It’s maybe an escape. But maybe this will like be the light bulb that he needs to realize how amazing that I am. Many women start to realize they may need a strategy for dealing with these types of men. To learn more about strategy, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.

The Option Of Being Alone

Anne: So many women don’t realize that there’s this awesome option and it’s because we haven’t been taught that especially women of faith who’ve grown up, when are you going to get married? Asking you about who you’re dating, that there’s this other awesome option, which is not dating anyone.

You really don’t need someone else as an escape plan or something, But we don’t think of that in the moment. We can just be alone and it’s fine. Since my divorce, I’ve been single for 10 years. And I was single for 10 years until I married my husband.

So I’m almost 47. I got married at 30, so single 10 years till I’m 30. Then he gets arrested when I’m 37.

You guys don’t know my story, but you’ll find out when you interview me for your podcast. So 37 to 47, I’ve also been single. So for that 27 years since I’ve been 20, I’ve only been married for seven of those years. And now I’m proudly, happily single and not dating anyone. And it’s great for me, I love it.

Megan: We need more examples of that.

The Danger Of Needing A Relationship

Megan: We don’t actually need to be in a relationship to be fulfilled.

Anne: Exactly, so that feeling of like, maybe this is my out. I think is how so many victims feel, but it’s also really dangerous because it often sets you up. Which I’m guessing we’re going to hear in a little bit for another abusive relationship. Sometimes, when we think we need a man for anything. Really it’s a little dangerous.

Rachel: I was 24 and I think what you said about growing up as a woman of faith. Yeah, you are taught that finding a husband is the end all be all. You’re in your early 20s and that’s the time to do it. So I thought I need to just grab all these pieces and make them fit. Like I don’t want to start over.

This is how it’s supposed to be. This is the person I am supposed to marry. We’re just hitting a bump in the road or whatever. I started dating this other person a little bit and see him. After a few months, he was dating around, but he starts having a serious girlfriend where he lives. So that was kind of over.

And the wolf at that point jumps in and is like, okay let’s be, you know, a little more serious here.

COVID & Relationship Dynamics

Rachel: This is around COVID. So early COVID time, we start getting more serious. We start integrating back into each other’s families and friends, and that was a big deal.

For the next couple of years, I really thought that he and I had worked through our things. We had come back together in a way that I thought was healthy. Fast forward a little bit, we get engaged again in November, 2022. And this is definitely where things are getting very dicey. Because I didn’t realize that he had been living a double life for about four years. At this point I am 27 and he is 30 and we pretty quickly start planning our second wedding.

We buy a house in February 2023 in which I pay for 80 percent of it and he pays for 20 percent of it. Because I have more of the stable and successful career than he does.

This was a big point of contention, our whole relationship too. I really wanted him to pick up another thing because we live in Southern California. It’s expensive to live here. He kind of tried some things, but at the end of the day, was kind of a quitter. He lived at his parents house for this whole time.

It kind of allowed him to not be super ambitious in this way. I was always kind of trying to push him and motivate him because I am a self starter.

4th Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Future Faking

Anne: Was he future faking you? Like, Oh, I’ve got this thing going on and I’m going to be doing this. This happens a lot in narcissistic abuse.

Rachel: Yeah, I think he would definitely do that sometimes. Or like, oh I can’t say what he does for work. But he would be like, come fall I’m going to be doing something different. I’m not going to be doing this anymore. Like he would kind of come up with these promises and these plans and they would, yeah, never come to fruition.

Anne: Okay. That’s number four, future faking. Hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to go on this trip. And then to actually get that thing done, either they never do it. Or you have to be part of that. You have to be the one that’s like, okay, you know, that cruise that you promised me six years ago? I’m going to be the one that plans it.

Then if you end up going, he’s like, see, I did this for you. And you’re like, no, no, no, no. Lots of victims have applied to college for them or applied to jobs for them, or . . .

Rachel: Yes, and I was doing this stuff. Yes.

Anne: That’s part of that future faking, right?

Megan: Me too.

Anne: They’re like, I’m going to do this. You’re waiting for them to do it. Then you end up doing it for them. Then it doesn’t go very well because they never wanted to do it in the first place. They were just lying to you.

Lack Of Follow Through

Rachel: Yeah. That was a big pattern for us. And I would say too that he was doing that for the second proposal too. He’d be like, this is coming. Let’s go look at rings. And then it would be like months would go by and he would waffle. He was promising me the world.

It was getting frustrating waiting for it. So I started getting pushy, and then his proposal was blasé, and Megan has more context on that, because she was kind of involved in it.

Megan: Very haphazard, last minute put together, because he had another girlfriend at the same time.

Rachel: Yep, so we move into our house March 1st, 2023. He finally starts a new job. Because now we’re paying a mortgage and he started seeing the dollar signs and got a reality check. He starts this new job and in mid-March, we’d only been living together a couple of weeks.

Suspicious Texts

Rachel: And one day he has his phone plugged into the kitchen. And a text pops up from a girl and I asked to see it and he opens it. It’s this very suspicious message about what are you doing tonight? And it’s a coworker from this new job. I say to him, what, what is happening here? And he’s like, well, she’s the one that plans the group get togethers for all the coworkers.

So I just was trying to see if they were going to play volleyball tonight. And I say, that’s not what you asked. You asked, what are you doing tonight? I said, do you understand how triggering this is for me? Last time we were engaged, you were having this emotional affair. I found texts on your phone.

Discovering The Truth

Rachel: At that point, I decide to go snooping. I open his laptop and the last place that I look is his trash and there’s a document in there detailing in bullet point format. It’s like a diary detailing his whole sexual history with Grace for the last four years.

The woman that he had an emotional affair with when we were engaged.

Anne: What? Do you know why?

Rachel: I think there were a couple of reasons why. I think it was like a fetishized thing for him. Um, he would go and like, look back on. Even think . . .

Anne: Like his own erotic novel that he wrote himself?

Rachel: I think so, but he was trying to convince me that none of it was true. But there are weird details in there that we’re confirming that it was. So I find this document.

Narcissistic Abuse: Confrontation & Panic

Rachel: I call him. He’s gone to his next job and he comes home and we sit down on the bed and he has a panic attack. And he is trying to convince me that none of what he wrote is true. He made it all up as a fantasy to help him cope with me dating Jack years ago. He made it all up.

Anne: Was this a fake panic attack?

Rachel: Uh, yes, I definitely believe so. Looking back.

Anne: At the time it feels like it’s an “accident,” but they’re doing it on purpose. Which was our number one thing. He’s acting like he’s having a panic attack. My ex would say like, I’m feeling so much shame. At first I was like, Oh, I feel bad for you. And later I was like, so what?

Rachel: Exactly. So he has this panic attack. He’s trying to convince me none of these things that he wrote are true. Then he says these words to me, it’s a direct quote, which comes back into play later. This is mid-April. And so he says to me, “I would never touch another woman with my dick.” That is what he says to me.

So for a week, I am trying to believe these words that he’s telling me. He’s telling me every single day. None of that’s true. The next day he goes to work after this event happened. I’m at home having panic attacks. I work from home and he is texting me that I’m safe, that I can trust him, that he would never hurt me. Anytime that he hurts me, it hurts him, and all these things.

Physical Rejection of Lies

Rachel: And so, for a week I’m trying to believe him and my body is physically rejecting his lies. I physically cannot do it. On the seventh day, after I have the gnarliest panic attack I’ve ever had. I say to him, I’m going to be contacting her. She had also blocked me on social media too. And that didn’t make sense to me either.

If nothing had happened between them, why would she go through the trouble of blocking me? And so I told him. I’m going to be contacting her because I cannot believe what you’re saying. I physically cannot believe you. And so at this point he tells me, okay, I’m going to come clean.

We did have a relationship for a couple years and it ended during COVID and when you and I started dating again. And he tells me this made up timeline. I am devastated because obviously that’s still been a lie the whole time we were still seeing each other. And he was seeing her at the same time and lying about it. And so I am devastated. I’m not eating. I’m not sleeping. I still say to him, that’s still cheating.

The timeline that he made up, he thought it was safe, but it wasn’t. It was overlapping. And I say, okay, you know what? It was years ago. I’m going to choose to forgive you and move past this.

Bachelorette Trip Revelation

Rachel: And then we go on my bachelorette trip in Mexico. And on the last day there, we’re all sitting around the table having a great time playing games. One of my best friends, she gets messaged screenshots from one of her friends from high school. And he had been sending messages to a girl while I was gone. This girl was a sister of my friend Sabrina’s friend. So these messages get back to Sabrina, and he had been asking to hang out with this girl while I was gone.

I see these screenshots on her phone the next day in the van on the way to the airport. I asked her, what the heck are those? And she tells me she was trying to wait until we got home. I confront him about it. I’m devastated. I’m having a panic attack in the Cancun airport. My best friends and my sister are on this trip for my bachelorette party celebrating this wedding that we’re supposed to have in a couple months.

And it’s all blowing up again in my face. Now everybody that I love essentially is involved and knows. And so I’m deep, deep, deep in shame here. He’s telling me he just wanted to hang out with her as a friend. She’s a friend from high school and all his friends were busy.

5th Sign Of Narcissitic Abuse: Saying They Didn’t Do Something Very Specific

Rachel: And I get home and what starts happening is I start figuring out how to out manipulate him. And how to essentially coerce him into giving me more information. So I learned, with me saying, I’m going to contact her. That got him to confess things. So I kind of do the same thing. And I get him to confess when I get home from Mexico, a bunch of virtual affairs that he’d been having for years. He confesses all the ones that he can remember.

Anne: Is hat what he said?

Rachel: That’s what he said.

Anne: He said all the ones I can remember. I want to say number five is when they tell you a story, like, I never touched another woman with my penis, for example. Then they for sure did.

Rachel: Yeah.

Anne: For sure did that thing. So if they give you a strange detail that is a sign that they’re lying.

Specific Lies & Truths: Hallmarks Of Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: Because, for some reason they think if I lie specifically about the specific thing. That’s going to cover it up rather than realizing it’s like a dead giveaway. So I 100 percent did not hang out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday. If they’re giving you specific details. Then you can be like, okay, well now I totally know. That he for sure hung out with her at that restaurant on Wednesday.

Like you wouldn’t even think to lie about something like that unless it had happened. That’s what I’m trying to say. Like the details are not things that you think of lying about if they didn’t happen. Does that make sense?

Rachel: Yeah. No, that does make sense.

Anne: So I think that’s where you’re going with this, is that he’s telling you specific things.

Like I didn’t touch another woman with my penis. And you’re just finding out every detail that he told you, that he didn’t do, is the thing that he did.

Rachel: Yes. Oh, yes. He confesses. Okay. The relationship with Grace went on longer than I said, and it essentially went on up until he proposed to me a second time.

Engagement & Narcissistic Abuse

Megan: And he was trying to decide between you and her.

Rachel: Yeah,

Anne: Did Grace know about you?

Rachel: Grace knew that I existed and I still haven’t talked to her yet. I would love to, but she was blindsided too. She didn’t know that he and I were back together. So he was puppet mastering us both. At this point I am a shell of myself, my friends are distraught.

My sister is a mess and I’ve asked her not to say anything to my parents. I am in this deep trying to keep everything together all over again mode. Almost exactly five years later to the day.

Anne: in this mode are you still really wanting to get married? You’re still trying to hold it together because you’re still like, this wedding is happening?

Rachel: Yes, mm hmm. And he was definitely very much brainwashing me. There was a lot of like spiritual manipulation going on at this point, too. This also is part of the narcissistic abuse cycle. That we were going to church and God was giving him these messages and dreams. And he’s learned so much . Now we’re in mid-June. And I’m basically just like not functioning.

One night in June, his phone has plugged in to the charger upstairs and he’s downstairs. I have already scoured his phone, but I get this weird feeling that I need to go and check his voicemails. I scroll down all the way to this little section at the bottom that has blocked messages and deleted messages.

Multiple Betrayals

There are two messages in his blocked messages little tab from very recently, like just a couple of weeks prior. It’s a woman and it’s this sultry voice saying how she misses him and hasn’t heard from him in a while. And he initially was telling me they just are sending inappropriate messages to each other.

It’s a coworker from his new job. Over the course of eight hours, I out manipulate him at five in the morning into telling me that he had slept with her twice in April. He tells me that he told me a lie, that he texted me that he was going to be late coming home from work. And I go back in my texts and I figure out when this was.

The first time that he slept with her was the day before I found the document on his computer about Grace. And then the second time was the day after I found the document about Grace on his computer when he’s texting me that I’m safe. You know, that he would never hurt me and all these things. I’m experiencing full on narcissistic abuse.

I’m finding out about this other four year relationship at the same time that he’s having an affair with his coworker, a completely different woman. It was a Sunday, went to church and I screamed in church during worship, get me out of this hell. I was so manic at this point. I felt like I was losing my mind.

Family Interventions For Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: My family at this time was noticing that something was going on. They could tell my sister was like hiding secrets and like something was not right. They end up getting some information out of me. Over the course of a few days they invite me over for a series of interventions. And the last day my parents tell me you can’t marry this person.

We don’t support it. We’re not gonna pay for it This needs to not be happening. I tell him this and he essentially shuts down. Then kind of tries to manipulate me in these other ways. He starts mocking me like a child and kind of throwing a lot of tantrums and crying. He says that I’m abandoning him if I’m gonna go over and spend time with my family. All these things that are common in narcissistic abuse. and the next day he leaves for work. I take my dog on a walk and I asked God, What am I supposed to do now?

It’s June 29th and I hear God go, open up your journal from five years ago, and I open up my journal. And to the day, I had written five years prior, that there’s a darkness in him. That he has sexual addiction and I need to get away from him, all these things. It was like I was writing it right then.

It snapped me out of whatever brainwash that I was in. And I came back to myself and I just started screaming in my house. No more, I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not giving him another five years. Like this is it, My parents called me in that moment, which was so strange because they had only been texting me that week.

Breaking Free From Narcissistic Abuse

Rachel: And in the middle of this panic, I had them come over and we came up with a plan and I left him. Over the next few months while we’re selling my house and everything, he does some really crazy things. He tells me he’s going to get a tattoo of me. All sorts of ridiculous stuff common things with narcissistic abuse. At that point, Megan and I went on my honeymoon together.

Anne: Yay!

Megan: After I just left my husband as well, so we were both on her honeymoon, single for the first time in a decade. Being like, Oh, let’s start over our lives.

Anne: That was epic.

Rachel: Yeah. And that was the beginning of the rest of my life, honestly. So that’s my story.

Healing From Narcissistic Abuse Takes Time

Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story, Rachel. So many women that listen to this podcast are going through that same thing. Only they are married and they didn’t find any of these things out until after the marriage. Or after they had a kid or multiple children. And so good for you. You always had it in you.

That’s the thing that kills me about narcissistic abuse. Sorry, the one thing, no, there’s so many things. Is that women are trying to get to safety, right? The whole time you’re trying to face it, the whole time you’re trying to figure it out. The whole time you were trying to do the right thing and had you known he is a con man. He is a compulsive liar and a narcissist.

Because you don’t know what you’re looking at. You’re trying to figure it out. Once you figure it out, you’re like, okay, I know what to do now. But they love to keep you in the dark. That’s what is so infuriating, that they are keeping you in the dark on purpose. To exploit you for whatever they’re exploiting you for, your emotions, sex, for some people it’s money.

It can be all sorts of things. Maybe all of those things combined, but they are exploiters. And they want to keep you in the dark. So I’m so, so glad that you were finally able to see the truth.

Saved From Narcissistic Abuse At The Final Hour

Rachel: Yeah, me too. I thought that it was a redemption path for us getting this house and getting re-engaged in all these things. I am so grateful that we did buy that house and we did live together for a few months. Because that allowed me to find out what he had been hiding for years. I really do feel so strongly that I was saved at the final hour twice.

I just really try to live now and not take it for granted and just lean super hard into life.

Anne: That’s awesome. If you want to hear more of her story and Megan’s story, their podcast is The Traumedy Show with Rachel and Megan Wilford. Thank you both for being here today.

Rachel & Megan: Thank you so much, Anne.

Facing your husband’s emotional abuse is gut wrenching. But it’s even harder when so-called helpers say things that make it worse. Here’s what you need to know about emotional battering you may experience from others.

If you’re married to an emotionally abusive man, here’s what emotional battering is, how your husband and others—sometimes unknowingly—contribute to this type of hidden abuse.

To learn if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

What Is Emotional Battering?

Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to diminish, manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious—making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others.

Your husband might lie to you constantly, manipulate you through kindness or fake loving acts, invalidate your feelings, or destroy your confidence with constant criticism and contempt. Worse, he may involve others, so you experience emotional battering from people in your church congregation or even neighbors.

If you’re experiencing emotional battering from by-standers regarding your husband’s behavior, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Common Emotional Abuse Tactics

Being married to an emotionally abusive man means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include:

• Gaslighting: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did.
• Constant Criticism: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence.
• Blame Shifting: Making you feel responsible for his behavior or blaming you for problems in the relationship.
• Stonewalling or Silent Treatment: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless.
• Public Embarrassment: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem.
• Emotional Withholding: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stIYXY2KCME

How Others May Be Pulled into Emotional Battering

Often, emotionally abusive men are charming to others but cruel behind closed doors. This charm can lead others—friends, family, or even counselors—to unknowingly contribute to your emotional pain. Here’s how:

• Enablers: Some people might dismiss your claims because they see him as a “good guy” and can’t imagine him being abusive. Phrases like “He seems like such a great husband” feel invalidating and painful.
• Flying Monkeys: These are people he influences to support his narrative. They might approach you with statements like “You’re overreacting” or “He’s just under a lot of stress,” that hurt you because it’s not true.
• Well-Meaning but Harmful Advice: Comments like “Marriage takes compromise” or “Have you tried being more understanding?” can make you feel the abuse is your fault or that you’re not doing enough.
• Social Isolation: He may paint you as overly sensitive, dramatic, or clingy to others, isolating you from the support you need.

Signs You May Be a Victim of Emotional Battering

It’s important to understand the symptoms of being subjected to emotional abuse. If these resonate with you, you may be experiencing emotional battering:

• Constantly doubting yourself and your decisions.
• Feeling like you’re “walking on eggshells” around your husband.
• Experiencing anxiety or depression as a result of the relationship.
• Struggling to explain his behavior to friends or family because he’s outwardly charming.
• Feeling isolated or unsupported, even by those close to you.

Transcript: How To Protect Your Thoughts From Emotional Battering

Emotional & Psychological abuse victims "mimic" codependent traits: this is why you're not codependent. Read on to learn more.