This episode is being re-released for your enjoyement. Please enjoy the episode.

Natasha Helfer interviews Dr. Gina Ogden, PhD, LMFT (August 9, 1935 – November 2, 2018) on one of the most common complaints that get brought to sex therapists: low female sexual desire.

Gina shares years of experience where she helps us ask pivotal questions to break this construct apart. What is it that we desire? Do women give themselves permission to experience pleasure? Gina instructs on her 4-dimensional model approach to what she calls the Integrative Wheel of Sexual Experience – where we delve into Body, Mind, Heart and Spirit. Walking through these four dimensions is an approach that allows one to take a holistic approach to such things as libido or erotic differences in partnerships.

Gina Ogden is an award-winning sex therapist, family therapist, researcher, teacher, and author. She is founder of the Relational Sexuality Network, an international collaboration of practitioners whose mission is to expand the practice of therapy and sex therapy beyond limiting notions of function and dysfunction to include a wide range of diversity and experience. She conducts retreats and trainings internationally, lectures widely, leads tele-seminars attended by professionals all over the world, and has appeared in the media from talk radio to the Oprah Winfrey Show. She supervises and trains sex therapists, physicians, nurses, social workers, family therapists, and other health providers in the Four-Dimensional Wheel approach, to broaden their understanding of sexual experience. She conducted the only nationwide survey on integrating sexuality and spirituality. She is the author of ten books. Her most recent books for a general readership (all published by Trumpeter) are: The Return of Desire (2008) and The Heart & Soul of Sex (2006). The 3rd edition of Women Who Love Sex, was published in 2007. Her books for a professional readership (all published by Routledge) are: Expanding the Practice of Sex Therapy: An Integrative Model for Exploring Desire and Intimacy, (2012) and Extraordinary Sex Therapy: Creative Approaches for Clinician (2015)—an edited collection of innovative and creative approaches from colleagues in the US and the UK. Her 4-D Wheel workbook for clinicians is : Exploring Desire & Intimacy: Innovative Approaches, Practical Applications–due in September, 2016. Links to resources that are covered during the podcast: Lessons From Women Who Love Sex – Poster graciously offered by Gina Ogden The Return of Desire: A Guide to Rediscovering your Sexual Passion by Gina Ogden Exploring Desire & Intimacy: Innovative Approaches, Practical Applications (due out in September of 2016) Kristin Hodson of the Healing Group and author of Real Intimacy: A Couples Guide for Genuine, Healthy Sexuality The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future by Riane Eisler

You can find out more on her website.

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

This episode is being re-released for your enjoyement. Please enjoy the episode.

Natasha Helfer interviews Richard and Lawrence Siegel, in the continuing discussion of why the framing of sexual issues as addiction is problematic. What are the neurological/medical explanations currently taking place within the sexual field? What are the diagnostic implications? What is the research that has been happening for the last 20 years on these issues? Is research interpreted and applied correctly? What do many of the terms being thrown around even mean? And can evidence-based/peer-reviewed research truly be found to support the addiction model for treating sexual problems? What happens when we look at our sexual behavior from the lens of it being broken, and even diseased? How does this affect such things as personal and relational trust? What are some of the issues that we should be talking or concerned about when it comes to sexual functioning? How should we treat and address sexual problems if we are not going to use an addiction model?

Richard M. Siegel, LMHC, CST is a Florida-licensed Mental Health Counselor, Director of the Modern Sex Therapy Institutes, a Florida Board Certified Sex Therapist and Qualified Supervisor, and an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist, Supervisor of Sex Therapy, and Provider of Continuing Education. He has a rich experiential background, including over 20 years as a sexuality educator and fifteen years in private sex therapy practice. In addition to his private practice in Boca Raton, Florida, Mr. Siegel is an adjunct faculty member at Palm Beach State College and enjoys a national reputation as a respected trainer, supervisor and conference presenter.

Lawrence Siegel, MA is a Clinical Sexologist and sexuality education consultant. He is the founder and serves on the Board of Directors of Sage Institute for Family Development, a non-profit training and counseling center in Florida. Larry sits on the faculties of several colleges, universities and training institutions, and is nationally recognized as a leader in the fields of sexuality, sexual development, sexual pharmacology, and medical sexology.

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined by Dr. Betty Martin to discuss consent on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast. 

As part of her work with the School of Consent, Betty travels around the world teaching practitioners how to create empowered agreements in their client sessions, in her highly sought-after training “Like A Pro: The Wheel of Consent for Practitioners.”  Originally developed as an offering to teach much-needed consent skills to sex workers and touch providers, this training is now attended by somatic therapists, massage therapists, sexuality educators, medical and health care workers, activists, human resources folks and the spectrum of touch-based professional providers – all of whom complete the training with a clear understanding of how consent starts with our own bodies, and then expands outwards into all forms of human relating, with or without touch.

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

This episode is being re-released for your enjoyement. Please enjoy the episode. Natasha has an upcoming group that you can sign up for: Pornography Dilemma Online Group with Natasha This group has been developed to help couples overcome the common struggles with pornography use within the marital contract. During this group, we will: Begin to deal with and repair the typical secrecy/betrayal cycles that have historically occurred in the relationship with sexual media. Understand evidence-based information about sexual media allowing well-informed decisions to be made based on science and our values instead of myths and folklore. Help couples understand the importance of balancing the need for individual autonomy and relational connection that can often feel contraindicated. Learn to move from “ownership” models of sexuality to “partnership” models of sexuality. Guide couples through agreement work based on principles of sexual and marital health (honesty, shared values, transparency, and differentiation). Begin repairing trust and building a relationship where relational, erotic sexuality can flourish if that’s what both partners want moving forward. WHEN: TUESDAYS 8 PM MT November 5, 12, 19, 26 & December 3, 10, 17 WHERE: Online Register here: https://symcounseling.com/group-registration/ or call: 1-208-391-7804 Go here for more: https://symcounseling.com/pornography-dilemma/ Natasha Helfer Parker interviews Dr. Joe Kort, an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist on his latest Psychology Today article called, https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/understanding-the-erotic-code/201511/why-i-am-no-longer-sex-addiction-therapist Why I am No Longer a Sex-Addiction Therapist (a great follow up to Episode 1: Porn Addiction: Is it Real?). They cover a wide range of topics, including: What is the history of the sex addiction model? Why (at least initially) can this model be helpful? What are some of the reasons why the sex addiction model does not offer long-term success for many? How do we go about defining and treating out of control sexual behavior? What role does past trauma play? What role does sexual shaming play? What role does secrecy play? What is the difference between secrecy and privacy? What role do other mental health diagnoses play? How do we go about supporting and defining healthy sexuality? How do we make room for our own and our spouse's erotic interests? How do we deal with the tension between religious values/teachings and the sexual desires/tastes/fantasies an individual or couple are experiencing? Be aware that Dr. Kort shares some frank clinical examples from his practice that include some sexual details. Dr. Joe Kort is a leading expert on sex and relationships. He specializes in Out-of-Control Sexual Behaviors, Relationship Problems and Marital Conflict, Sex Therapy, and Sexual Identity Concerns, Depression, Anxiety and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. His practice is located in Royal Oak, Michigan but he welcomes clients from all over the Metro Detroit area. Dr. Kort is also available for long-distance coaching and consultation. Dr. Kort graduated from Michigan State University with dual majors in Psychology and Social Work. At Wayne State University, he earned his Master's in Social Work (MSW), then a Master’s (MA) in Psychology, and has received his Doctorate (Ph.D.) in Clinical Sexology from the American Academy of Clinical Sexologists (AACS). To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com. This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions. The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening. And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

This episode is being re-released for your enjoyement.

Please enjoy the episode.

Natasha has an upcoming group that you can sign up for:

Pornography Dilemma Online Group with Natasha

This group has been developed to help couples overcome the common struggles with pornography use within the marital contract.

During this group, we will:

• Begin to deal with and repair the typical secrecy/betrayal cycles that have historically occurred in the relationship with sexual media.
• Understand evidence-based information about sexual media allowing well-informed decisions to be made based on science and our values instead of myths and folklore.
• Help couples understand the importance of balancing the need for individual autonomy and relational connection that can often feel contraindicated.
• Learn to move from “ownership” models of sexuality to “partnership” models of sexuality.
• Guide couples through agreement work based on principles of sexual and marital health (honesty, shared values, transparency, and differentiation).
• Begin repairing trust and building a relationship where relational, erotic sexuality can flourish if that’s what both partners want moving forward.

WHEN: TUESDAYS 8 PM MT

• November 5, 12, 19, 26 & December 3, 10, 17

WHERE: Online

Register here: https://symcounseling.com/group-registration/

or call: 1-208-391-7804

Go here for more: https://symcounseling.com/pornography-dilemma/

Natasha Helfer Parker interviews Dr. Nicole Prause, founder of the Sexual Psychophysiology and Affective Neuroscience (SPAN) Laboratory, in regards to the research she has personally done (and is aware of) concerning our relationships with pornography and erotic viewing materials.

They cover all types of topics such as: What are some common correlations that are made in regards to porn viewing research that are completely inaccurate? Are we aware that those who view porn tend to be more egalitarian in their relationships? Why does it matter if we call problematic behavior by the right name (i.e. addiction vs. compulsivity vs. out-of-control, etc.)? Did you know that women respond to erotica in similar ways as men do and even share similar sexual tastes? Did you know that people who view erotic films report having increased desire for sexual activity with their spouse/partner? Objectification of women is definitely a problem, but violence? Not so much. Did you know that those who report having “out of control” behavior with porn viewing actually watch the same or less than those who don’t identify with having a problem? And that research is now showing that those who see their behavior as problematic tend to come from religious or conservative backgrounds?

Get up to date with what we think is science versus what is actually science in regards to positives and negatives that can come from porn/erotic viewing.

Nicole Prause obtained her PhD at Indiana University with joint supervision from The Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction in 2007. Her concentrations were in neuroscience and statistics. She completed her APA/APPIC clinical internship at the Boston Consortium. Her clinical rotations were in neuropsychological assessment and behavioral medicine; her research fellowship was at Harvard University in alcoholism treatment. She was promoted to Associate Scientist at UCLA in 2014. Current laboratory interests include primary rewards, transcranial brain stimulation, and approach motivation.

She is licensed as a psychologist in the state of California. Dr. Prause currently holds positions as the founder of Liberos LLC, an independent research institute, and Data Scientist in Los Angeles.

Resources mentioned during podcast:

Religion, Spirituality and Sexual Addiction: A Critical Evaluation of Converging Fields Position of the Mormon Mental Health Association

Trib Talk: Porn and Public Health Treating Out of Control Behavior by Doug Braun-Harvey and Michael Vigorito

Other Resources: Prause et al. (2015) the latest falsification of addiction predictions Other subjects mentioned: Masters and Johnson The Meese Report Lifestar Network Fight the New Drug

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined by Rachel Larsen on this episode of the Natasha Helfer Rachel Larsen interviews Natasha Helfer about the types of issues couples come into therapy in regards to distress about porn use. They also discuss an upcoming support/educational group.

Pornography Dilemma Online Group with Natasha

This group has been developed to help couples overcome the common struggles with pornography use within the marital contract.

During this group, we will:

• Begin to deal with and repair the typical secrecy/betrayal cycles that have historically occurred in the relationship with sexual media.
• Understand evidence-based information about sexual media allowing well-informed decisions to be made based on science and our values instead of myths and folklore.
• Help couples understand the importance of balancing the need for individual autonomy and relational connection that can often feel contraindicated.
• Learn to move from “ownership” models of sexuality to “partnership” models of sexuality.
• Guide couples through agreement work based on principles of sexual and marital health (honesty, shared values, transparency, and differentiation).
• Begin repairing trust and building a relationship where relational, erotic sexuality can flourish if that’s what both partners want moving forward.

WHEN: TUESDAYS 8 PM MT

• November 5, 12, 19, 26 & December 3, 10, 17

WHERE: Online

Register here: https://symcounseling.com/group-registration/

or call: 1-208-391-7804

Go here for more: https://symcounseling.com/pornography-dilemma/

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined by Ian Kerner on this episdoe of the Natasha Helfer Podcast.

Ian Kerner, PhD, LMFT  is the co-Director of the sex therapy program at the Institute for Contemporary Psychotherapy and contributes regularly on the topic of sexual health for CNN. He is the New York Times best-selling author of "She Comes First" (Harper Collins) which has been translated into more than a dozen languages and he maintains a private practice in NYC dedicated to honoring the centrality of sexuality in his patients’ lives.

Natasha and Ian discuss sexual scripts and also refer to another one of his books, "So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex: Laying Bare and Learning to Repair Our Love Lives."

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined by Kerry Pray in this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast. Kerry recently wrote and edited a book, "The Book of Queer Mormon Joy."

The story of queer Mormons is one that some might not expect to be joyful. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has traditionally asserted that queerness is counter to God’s plan and that gender as determined at birth is eternal. Any marriage other than a monogamous pairing of male and female is “counterfeit.” So called “wickedness,” we are told, “never was happiness.”

But queer Mormons tell different stories—stories filled with joy. This collection includes essays by queer Mormons across the LGBTQ spectrum who, when they looked inside themselves, found divinity rather than sin. Stories by people who are made exactly as they are meant to be, and live accordingly.

Queer Mormons who feel forced out of the institutional church don’t typically find despair on the outside or abandonment by the divine. Instead, their lives are rich and beautiful—made all the more so by the struggle. The Book of Mormon tells us, “Men are that they might have joy.” The Book of Queer Mormon Joy affirms that trans, nonbinary, intersex, asexual, bisexual, polyamorous, and gay people have joy. Joy is for everyone.

You can find the book on Amazon: 

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Queer-Mormon-Joy/dp/1560854707/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33OVKFYI67VX8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.YRC_CZZ0YUwO6QFhgGCjJDqn9HF54WHVihKSkZgc9ni_ldetq47Cfc2uv4Igd00KbXtw7qNXYuEwLk7-zHvkAoiQnr3qkIF2HGcmvBRt5p4.zwrYIQb7yp3EGLukxuthKzpwVsd8nUkkDL5_XB_tzN0&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+book+of+queer+mormon+joy&qid=1724816170&sprefix=the+book+of+queer+mormon+joy%2Caps%2C168&sr=8-1

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Evita "Lavitaloca" Sawyer joins Natasha on this episode on the Natasha Helfer Podcast! They discuss all things nonmonogamy.

To find out more about Evita, check out her instagram profile @lavitaloca34:

 https://www.instagram.com/lavitaloca34/?hl=en

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined by other providers on the Symmetry team to discuss current events, in particlar, the recently released Trans policy by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.

Natasha is joined in this episode of the Natasha Helfer Podcast by one of her providers, Sara Rands, ACMHC, to discuss "Faith Transitions and Existential Therapy". 

You can find out more on Sara by going here: https://symcounseling.com/sara-rands/

To help keep this podcast going, please consider donating at natashahelfer.com and share this episode. To watch the video of this podcast, you can subscribe to Natasha’s channel on Youtube and follow her professional Facebook page at natashahelfer LCMFT, CST-S. You can find all her cool resources at natashahelfer.com.

This podcast addresses many topics around mental health and sexuality and may not be suitable for minors. Some topics may elicit a trigger or emotional response so please care for yourself accordingly.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or feelings of Natasha Helfer or the Natasha Helfer Podcast. We provide a platform for open and diverse discussions, and it is important to recognize that different perspectives may be shared. We encourage our listeners to engage in critical thinking and form their own opinions.

The intro and outro music for these episodes is by Otter Creek. Thank you for listening.

And remember: Symmetry is now offering Ketamine services. To find out more, go to symcounseling.com/ketamine-services.