We’re bringing back one of our most popular episodes ever on the pod - featuring “The Body Keeps the Score” author Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. And for a fun NEW take on the episode, Jen Hatmaker has asked one of her best friends, Amy Hardin, to join her to discuss their thoughts on this episode! Listen as Jen and Amy discuss their meet cute and then wade into the episode which delves into the relationship between trauma and the body, relating their personal experiences around this. 

Dr. Van Der Kolk is a psychiatrist, author, researcher and author of the book The Body Keeps The Score. He has spent most of his career researching the causes of post traumatic stress, and is continuing to come away with groundbreaking discoveries about the power of our bodies to protect and shield us. Dr. Van Der Kolk brings us to the intersection of embodiment, mental well-being, and neuroscience and examines how we can understand our bodies’ response to trauma so we can embrace our healing.

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Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“People think about trauma as that thing that happened a long time ago. But that's not the issue, because that thing is over. It happened last year or 10 years ago, it's not happening today. But the traces that it leaves inside of you, are happening now.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk 

“When you're traumatized, you try to not have all the sensations and feelings, and you turn on music loudly, or you drink or you take drugs, to make those feelings go away. And then to experience your feelings becomes very difficult.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk 

“The most elementary thing is breathing. Our breath is the one thing in our body that happens whether we want it or not. And we can learn to breathe differently. So there's a physiological function that gives us access to some core pieces of ourselves, where you slow down your breath, you focus on breath, you activate your parasympathetic nervous system, and you do become calmer. That's where you start.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk  

“You cannot take care of yourself unless you accept yourself for who you are.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk 

“When you're traumatized, one thing becomes another thing. So to open that up, and open up the mind to new possibilities is incredibly important.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Body Keeps The Score by Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk - https://bit.ly/3zyCVPk

Guest’s Links:

Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Website - https://www.besselvanderkolk.com

Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thebodykeepsthescore

Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thebodykeepsthescore/

Dr. Van Der Kolk’s YouTube - https://bit.ly/3RZpoa8

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kirsten Powers is a tenured news analyst who lived inside our modern age’s belly of the beast — 24-Hour Network News. Kirsten Powers lived and breathed as a senior news analyst at Fox News and then CNN for years. Eventually, she hit a breaking point and realized living full throttle, enraged about the state of the world, wasn't doing her or anyone she loved any favors. She pulled back and began examining what it would be like if she stayed engaged in political news but also still centered and compassionate. Through her examination, she wrote an entire book about how to embrace grace and disengage from inflammatory discourse called “Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts.”

If you need some advice on how to balance that tightrope walk of being informed and actionable but not totally defeated by the litany of bad news, please join Jen and Kirsten as they determine what grace looks like when the world feels culturally and politically on fire. 

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I feel like what our culture is missing is grace. We don't have grace for each other, and I don't have grace for people, and I don't think other people have grace for people, for the most part. And I think it's because we don't really understand grace.” - Kirsten Powers

“When you call things out, you need to call it behavior. You need to say, "You're doing X, Y, and Z, and this is a problem," versus, "You are X, Y, and Z, and you are a problem.” - Kirsten Powers

“Boundaries were really hard for me. And one of the things that I discovered was, I think I thought of boundaries as almost aggressive. You're keeping people out, and that's not actually what they are. You're actually letting people know how to be in a relationship with you. So it's actually an act of grace, right?” - Kirsten Powers

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Richard Rohr on FTL Podcast: https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-16/live-yourself-into-a-new-way-of-thinking-richard-rohr/
• Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts
• https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/saving-grace-kirsten-powers/1138990768?ean=9780593238233
• Fierce, Free and Full of Fire: The Guide to Being Glorious You https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fierce-free-and-full-of-fire-jen-hatmaker/1132184307?ean=9780718088163&aug=1
• Kirsten’s Substack Newsletter: https://kirstenpowers.substack.com/
• For the Love of the Enneagram (Jen’s podcast series on the Enneagram): https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series/series-27/

Guest’s Links:

• Kirsten’s Website: https://kirstenpowers.com/
• Kirsten’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenpowers10/ 
• Kirsten’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/KirstenPowers/
• Kirsten’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/KirstenPowers

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bestselling author, R. Eric Thomas, wrote “Here for It” in 2020 and it continues to reverberate in the hearts and minds of readers because of its timely topics and riveting personal story—making it a perfect “revisit” for our book club community! With humor and vulnerability, Eric shares about his memoir which is equal parts hilarity and heart–and what it took to write about his intersecting identities as a Black, queer, Christian man.

Join Jen and Eric as they traverse transforming the ordinary into the profoundly funny and insightful.

Book Summary:

In his memoir of essays “Here for It,” Eric attempts to define what it means to be an “other” through his experience growing up in two very different worlds — the urban landscape of his parents home in Baltimore and then the wealthy, white suburb where he went to private school. He tries to figure out how to reconcile all of this, not just these two wildly different racial and class spaces, but also his Christian upbringing with his sexuality as a gay man; the exhaustion of code switching; accidentally finding internet fame; covering the 2016 election and all of that aftermath. Ultimately, he is seeking to answer whether the future is worth it when everything seems to be getting worse. He re-envisions what could be by placing himself at the center of his own story and sharing his experiences with us.

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Guest’s Links:

R. Eric Thomas’s Website - https://rericthomas.com/

R. Eric Thomas’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/oureric/

R. Eric Thomas’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/oureric

R. Eric Thomas’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/R.Eric.T/

Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Here for It or How to Save Your Soul in America by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3KFKdTV

The Preacher’s Wife - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Preacher%27s_Wife

Congratulations, The Best Is Over by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3RdAY1E

Kings of Baltimore by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3PxKvQ4

Dickinson (TV Series) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8518136/

Better Things (TV Series) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4370596/

The Moth - https://bit.ly/3Vl3YFb

Andre DeShields - https://www.andredeshields.com/

Clue (The 1985 Movie) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clue_(film)

Amy Dickinson - https://amydickinson.com/

R. Eric Thomas’s Here For It  News Letter - https://letter.rericthomas.com/

Maxine Waters - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxine_Waters 

Ann Patchett - http://www.annpatchett.com/

Festival of Homiletics - https://festivalofhomiletics.com/

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ 

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ 

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest this week is bringing core insights into the kitchen so that everyone can: 

a.) enjoy cooking and b.) turn it from a massive chore to a bright spot in your day. Author, blogger and “accidental cook” Bri McKoy is here, talking with Jen about the best practices and advice on how to become the kind of cook you want to be for your own life. Drawn from her essential cookbook, “The Cooks Book: Recipes for Keeps and Essential Techniques to Master Everyday Cooking,” Bri wants to share what she’s learned in her kitchen so that everyone’s kitchen can become a place of confidence and joy. 

 Jen and Bri dish on: 

• Why it matters where you put things in your kitchen—and how small changes can make a big impact
• The Forever Grocery list, is Bri’s tried and true list of things you should always have on hand in your kitchen so that you limit your time shopping and planning
• Bri’s Kitchen Techniques - simple rules that help us make decisions in the kitchen
• What you need to know about pairing the right wine with the right foods and how to stock your bar with the essentials

If there’s more cooking in your life this summer with kids at home, guests coming to visit, or budget-conscious cooking when traveling, this relatable episode will give you the tools you need to de-stress your kitchen and make it a place for great food and great fun!

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I come from a background of I didn't like cooking. I didn't wanna be in the kitchen. Every aspect of it, from the grocery shopping to the cleaning to the prepping was the worst. Then, when I started to learn how to cook, I became so much more joyful and less stressed out.” - Bri McKoy

“I have this arsenal of these five basic things. That means I have become confident and joyful in the kitchen. I teach those tips, tricks, techniques, recipes so that other people can feel like even if they depart from my cookbook, they will have success with every other recipe they try.” - Bri McKoy

“I always say that a sauce can make a meal. Like give it a glow up” - Bri McKoy

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Cooks Book: Recipes for Keeps and Essential Techniques to Master Everyday Cooking - https://bit.ly/3DQg6Ws

Cooking MeCourse ft. Jen and Bri - https://jenhatmaker.com/me-course/cooking/ 

Feed These People (Jen’s cookbook) - https://jenhatmaker.com/feed-these-people/ 

The Joy of Cooking (Cookbook) - https://bit.ly/3YpPbdv 

Country Crock Buttery Spread - https://bit.ly/3OrCRER 

Wine & Spirit Education Trust - https://bit.ly/3OMZPb1

Come and Eat: A Celebration of Love and Grace Around the Everyday Table (Bri’s Latest Cookbook) - https://bit.ly/3qqt89T

Guest’s Links:

Bri’s Website - https://oursavorylife.com/ 

Bri’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/brimckoy 

Bri’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/brimckoy 

Bri’s Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/brimckoy/ 

Bri’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brimckoy/ 

Bri’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNkSDrh24WkP4HQbCfnPtwA?

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do you struggle to feel truly at home in your body? We’re here to tell you; that it is possible. Our episode this week is a topic we return to often because we just can’t hear it enough; how we can heal our connections to our bodies. We have author and embodiment expert, Prentis Hemphill on the show, and she and Jen explore the idea of healing through embodied practices. 

Prentis shares poignant insights from their work in the Black community processing racial trauma through reconnecting to embodied cultural practices. Here’s another piece of good news–when you heal your connection to your body, you present a vision of embodied healing that radiates outward - from ourselves to our communities. That in turn can transform oppressive cultures through grounded love. The possibilities are endless when we take agency over our bodies!

Jen and Prentis discuss:

• the definitions of somatic practices and embodied healing
• the role of embodiment in individual healing, processing trauma, and developing resilience
• the connection between individual embodied healing work and the potential for broader cultural/societal healing and transformation
• the lack of short-term optimism for societal change, but how unshakable faith rooted in human connection and community will eventually turn the tide

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes;

"Somatics is the study of how our experiences and traumas live in the body. It's also a story of how our bodies can be resilient." - by Prentis Hemphill

"I think, generally, the times I feel most free are when I'm with my people and feel fully accepted and loved. When we're eating or dancing or we're cracking up and falling off the couch is when my body feels the absolute freest — when I'm in a loving community." - by Prentis Hemphill

"I love embodiment. I think a lot of it fundamentally is trying to point us in the direction of relationship and authenticity, courage, and care. I think that's when we will be most embodied is when we can live those values." - by Prentis Hemphill

"I think, generally, our culture just doesn't take the space and time to grieve the things that we need to grieve. We haven't celebrated the things we need to celebrate. There's a lot of denial and that stifles our growth. It keeps us, as a society, deeply immature. And I think if we could make some space for those things, a lot would change." - by Prentis Hemphill

"There are no more words that can be said. We can keep talking, but there are not really any more words to say. There's something that has to happen. It has to take root in your belly. It has to be expressed through your actions. You have to change." - by Prentis Hemphill

"To do anything [to create change] is going to be contingent on our ability to stay in relationship with each other." - by Prentis Hemphill

Resources Mentioned in This Episode;

The Black Embodiment Initiative at The Embodiment Institute - https://bit.ly/3xhlAda

You Are Your Best Thing edited by Tarana Burke and Brené Brown - https://bit.ly/3z09C88

Holding Change by Adrienne Maree Brown - https://bit.ly/3RlD3Ig

The Politics of Trauma by Staci Haynes - https://bit.ly/4cjpFwk

What it Takes to Heal by Prentis Hemphill - https://bit.ly/4eoC6ZB

Guest’s Links:

Prentis’ Website - https://prentishemphill.com/

Prentis’ Twitter - https://twitter.com/prentishemphill

Prentis’ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/prentishemphill

Prentis’ Finding Our Way Podcast - https://linktr.ee/findingourwaypod

Prentis’ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/prentishemphill

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming in hot for our Queer Futures series, we’re bringing you an interview previously aired on For The Love’s Premium Podcast channel with celebrity Peloton instructor, Cody Rigsby. Cody has gained a devoted following through his engaging and motivational fitness classes on the Peloton platform. He talks about his memoir "XOXO Cody: An Opinionated Homosexual's Guide to Self-Love, Relationships and Tactful Pettiness" in which he opens up about transitioning from professional dance to fitness, his relationship with his mother who struggled with addiction and bipolar disorder, and how he aims to empower others through vulnerability and self-love. With his vibrant personality and inspirational story, Cody has become a celebrity in his own right. 

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I think the biggest obstacle to someone starting a fitness journey is feeling intimidated. You don't know what you're doing. You don't look like the people that are at the gym. Your body doesn't know what it's doing. So it's super overwhelming. So if you can take that and push it all to the side and just be like, ‘Okay, [where] in this space can I have fun?’” - Cody Rigsby

“No matter how much we love anybody in our life, specifically our parents, dealing with addiction is hard. It's challenging. You don't really know the effects of it when you're a kid until you look back as an adult and be like, ‘Oh wow, that was really messed up.’” - Cody Rigsby

“In life, it gets so busy. We're wrapped up in work, we really forget what life used to be or the struggles that we had and the aspirations that we have. Then you sit in the present and you have a moment of gratitude and say to yourself, ‘Wow, I have a lot of the things that I always wanted and I've let go of so many of the things that were holding me back.” - Cody Rigsby

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Cody on Dancing with the Stars - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JjDU_DKpeQ

One Peloton Community - https://www.onepeloton.com/blog/ 

XOXO, Cody: An Opinionated Homosexual’s Guide to Self-Love, Relationships, and Tactful Pettiness - https://bit.ly/3z0FkSN  

Dancing with the Stars ft. Cody Rigsby - https://bit.ly/4cjlCjv 

Jess King: Peloton Instructor - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/jessicaking 

Robin Arzón: Peloton Instructor - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/jessicaking 

Glamorous (Netflix TV Series) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81076871 

Tiger King (Netflix Documentary) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81115994

Guest’s Links:

Cody’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/codyrigsby/

Cody’s Peloton Page - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/codyrigsby 

Cody’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/codyrigsbyfitness/ 

Cody’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/CodyRigsby 

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This powerful episode in our Queer Futures series features an enlightening conversation about power structures with Jen and renowned author Roxane Gay and co-writer Megan Pillow. The women explore not only the concept of individual power, but how we can engage in community empowerment. Together, they delve into how marginalized communities, particularly LGBTQ+ individuals, can claim their power and challenge existing power structures to create a more inclusive and just society.

Discussion includes: 

• Claiming Individual Power: How women, LGBTQ+ individuals, and others can assert their power in personal and professional spaces.
• Challenging Power Structures: The importance of calling out abuses of power and questioning the status quo
• Empowerment Through Solidarity: The role of community and collective action in amplifying individual voices and driving social progress.
• Re-examining Power Dynamics: How rethinking traditional notions of gender, race, and power can lead to more equitable outcomes.
• Focusing on the Margins: The significance of centering marginalized voices and experiences in conversations about power and progress.

Roxane and Megan discuss practical steps that anyone can take to empower others around them. We’re encouraged to ask ourselves critical questions about our own relationships to power and to question the power sources that infringe on the rights of others and use our individual power to disrupt them. Every small act of resistance contributes to a larger movement for justice.

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“Power doesn't affect all of us equally and some people are able to wield power or are given power, and others have power wielded against them. There are all kinds of factors that contribute to the why of that.” - Dr. Roxane Gay

“When you see an abuse of power, call it out and identify it. Oftentimes power works because nobody questions it and nobody challenges it.” - Dr. Roxane Gay

"We have to use voting as one tool [to enact change], but we have to figure out other ways to be involved in our communities and to enact other forms of power, not just rely on voting as the singular tool that we use to try to enact change.” - Dr. Roxane Gay

“The queer future is complicated. I think the queer future is much better than the queer past, and we are really enjoying a lot of freedom. But it's not enough and until all of us are free, none of us are free.” - Dr. Roxane Gay

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Bad Feminist by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/bad-feminist/

Difficult Women by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/difficult-women/

Hunger by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/hunger/

All of Roxane’s Books - https://roxanegay.com/books/

Do The Work: A Guide to Understanding Power and Creating Change by Dr.Roxane Gay and Dr. Megan Pillow - https://bit.ly/45nxhvd

The Power Book: What is it, Who Has it, and Why? by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://bit.ly/3VBRYAl

Obergefell v. Hodges (2015 Supreme Court case making same-sex marriages legal in the U.S.) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges

Guest’s Links:

Roxane’s Website - https://roxanegay.com/

Roxane’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/roxanegay74  

Roxane’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/roxanegay74

The Audacity (Roxane and Megan’s Stubstack Blog) - https://audacity.substack.com/

Megan’s Website - https://www.meganpillow.com/

Megan’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/megpillow

Megan’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/megpillow77/

Craftwork (Megan’s Substack Blog) - https://craftwork.substack.com/

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special bonus episode of the For the Love Podcast, Jen sits down with her literary hero — beloved author and teacher, Anne Lamott, whose candid, humorous writing has inspired millions to embrace their imperfect selves.

Anne and Jen explore the hard-won wisdom distilled across Anne's 45-year career and 20 books - from finding radical self-love after a lifetime of shame, to surrendering to life's ordinary miracles during periods of existential crisis. With refreshing irreverence, Anne shares her lessons on unearthing your deepest, truest voice and faith that new paths are waiting, even when the way forward feels hopelessly obscured.

Jen and Anne discuss

• The importance of radical self-love, letting go of shame, and being your own priority before trying to please or gain approval from others
• Having faith that there is a "shape" or path waiting for you, even if you can't see it yet, by surrendering and doing the work of self-examination
• The wisdom that comes with age in realizing how little you know
• The way small, mundane acts can be profound expressions of love and service to buoy you during dark periods

For anyone who has ever felt cracked by life's circumstances, Anne's perspective provides a roadmap back to wholeness.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“[I've been] giving myself deeper and deeper permission to use my own voice and to stop trying to get people to like or respect me or to think I'm more educated than I am--which I'm not at all educated--and to just get kind of cleaner in my own being so that I could write the deepest I could go in my own truest voice and just get that day's work done one day at a time. It's like nautilus for the soul. To keep writing your truth with your own weird, quirky, way of expressing yourself and being affirmed that people seem to like it and to keep going.” - Anne Lamott

"What love manifests is making more mistakes. Knowing as a writer, that a pile of papers and notes and index cards is a fertile field, and you don't need to know what you're going to do with them. They know what you're going to do with them. The material knows what you're going to do with it, and it's going to get back to you as it trusts more and more that you're a reliable narrator." - Anne Lamott

“We do some deep dive into the obstacles to radical self-love and to just surrendering to the path of goodness or God or the holiness. The first thing God says to Moses is 'take off your shoes. Feel the earth beneath your feet. This is holy ground.' And that is what God has for you, starting right now. Take off your shoes and wiggle your toes in the earth. Look up. Breathe in. And when you are restored from what you've been through, all this nautilus for your soul you've been doing, you're going to step forward into that shape.” - Anne Lamott

Resources Mentioned in this Bonus Episode: 

Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life - https://bit.ly/3K1JZGg

Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/3ytWzeK

The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford - https://bit.ly/3JZCP5s

Hard Laughter: A Novel by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/4bFcO7b

Five Rules of Being a Grown-Up (Article by CJ Green) - https://bit.ly/4bXbmxl

8 Best Anne Lamott Books -https://bit.ly/3yoWbyj

Guest Links:

Twitter - https://twitter.com/annelamott/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnneLamott/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annelamott/

Penguin Random House - https://sites.prh.com/annelamott

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen Hatmaker revisits one of the most impactful and downloaded episodes from her "For the Love" podcast's 7-year history. In this powerful encore, she has a candid conversation with acclaimed writer and speaker Jonathan Merritt who publicly comes out as gay for the first time during their interview.

Jen and Jonathan reflect on their intertwined journeys - she as an ally leaving the evangelical world, he as a prominent faith voice reckoning with his sexuality. Brace yourself for an emotional, insightful look at the joy and pain of Jonathan's coming out experience. This is one powerhouse episode you won't want to miss again (or for the first time!).

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Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I had a choice. I could either leave the idea of being loved in that way and loving in that way behind and to get belonging and acceptance, or I could choose to be rejected by the people that I was given as a family and a faith community and I could go off on my own way and try to find love. And that's a tough decision.” – Jonathan Merritt 

“I'd grown up hearing this, ‘we hate the sin, we love the sinner.’ And yet, everywhere I looked was all this sin-hate. And there was no marking of loving these people.” – Jonathan Merritt

“The number one reason that someone changes their views on homosexuality or same-sex marriage is how they answer the question, ‘Do you have a close family member or friend who is gay?’” – Jonathan Merritt

“I live in an Episcopal seminary. You feel hundreds of years of prayers that have been prayed here by good people. People who joined the Civil Rights Movement. And people who were marching after the Stonewall Riots. And people who did it because they loved Jesus and not in spite of that fact.” – Jonathan Merritt

"American evangelicalism is predicated on the existence of an enemy to fight, and that keeps people coming to church. It's the need to be against, right? And people revel in that, that's the selling point." – Jonathan Merritt

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://bit.ly/3BQ2FUl

How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://bit.ly/3IdV3gW

Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, Gay Marriage & More - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3IhrUS0

Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3siB9Ms

Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LXWlyX

Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LVOTUV

A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3Vvj8J6

Dr. Michael Lindsay - Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile

James Martin - Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/

My Guncle and Me by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.amazon.com/My-Guncle-Me-Jonathan-Merritt/dp/0762485612

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com 

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt/ 

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JonathanMerritt

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen and award-winning author, Kelly Barnhill, discuss the powerful themes and inspirations behind her genre-defying book "When Women Were Dragons." Sparked by her outrage during the Kavanaugh hearings, Barnhill created a bold metaphor where women transform into dragons to escape societal oppression.

In this conversation, she delves into her controversial ending that ultimately represents the multitude of paths to female empowerment. Barnhill also examines the dangerous historical pattern of silencing trauma and marginalized voices, from the 1918 flu to violent racial tensions.

Jen and Kelly discuss:

• “When Women Were Dragons’" exploration of women transforming into dragons as a metaphor for rebelling against oppression and societal constraints.
• The ending and how it represents there are multiple valid paths for women's empowerment - some transformative, others finding power in conventional roles.
• Highlights about the historical pattern of silencing traumatic events and oppression of marginalized groups.
• Portrayals of womanhood as expansive and defying rigid societal definitions of what a woman is or can be.

Novel Summary:

"When Women Were Dragons" by Kelly Barnhill is a feminist fantasy novel that explores themes of female empowerment, societal repression, and transformation. Set in an alternate 1950s America, the story revolves around a mysterious event known as the "Mass Dragoning of 1955," where a significant number of women across the country inexplicably turn into dragons and fly away, leaving behind their human lives.

The protagonist, Alex Green, navigates life in the aftermath of this event. She grows up in a society that tries to suppress and erase the memory of the dragonings, facing the stigma and secrecy surrounding the topic. Alex's journey involves uncovering family secrets, particularly those related to her aunt Marla, who was one of the women who transformed. As Alex learns more about her aunt's life and the circumstances of the dragonings, she begins to understand the broader implications of the event and its connection to women's liberation and agency.

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Guest’s Links:

Kelly’s Website - https://kellybarnhill.wordpress.com/

Kelly’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/insufferable_blabbermouth/

Kelly’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/kellybarnhill

Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Girl Who Drank the Moon by Kelly Barnhill - https://bit.ly/3Vd01m3

The Book of Dragons: An Anthology - https://bit.ly/4bO3ldN

Kavanaugh Hearing - https://supreme.justia.com/justices/brett-m-kavanaugh/

1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic - https://bit.ly/3ysjfvX

The Book of Love: A Novel by Kelly Link - https://bit.ly/4btgQzN

Nettle & Bone - https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250824776/nettlebone

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ 

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ 

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week’s top episode from the archives is our number one most listened to episode. In a profoundly moving encore episode, Jen Hatmaker shares the story of interviewing her daughter, Sydney, as Sydney shared her emotional coming out story. This raw conversation follows Sydney as she vulnerably shares her journey of accepting herself as gay while still holding onto her faith–and we’re very excited to share this again during Pride Month as part of our Queer Futures series.

Jen reintroduces the episode reflecting on what’s changed since this conversation and how it’s affected her community. Three years later, this episode remains an incredible force, sparking deep discussions around LGBTQ+ issues and Christianity in our community. Jen recalls the immense reach and impact this episode evoked - from mending broken family relationships to causing church leaders to reevaluate their approach. As Jen reflects on Sydney’s growth, it’s a beautiful reminder that embracing authenticity allows people to flourish.

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Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all.” -Sydney Hatmaker

“It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God.” -Sydney Hatmaker

“Your allyship can't be about you, and it can't be performative, and it has to be for everybody. And it has to be about love.” -Sydney Hatmaker

Connect with Jen!

Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker

Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 

Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices