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Mountain & Prairie Podcast

Ed Roberson

Interviews with innovators of the American West. Guests include ranchers, writers, athletes, artists, adventurers, conservationists, entrepreneurs—anyone who’s doing important work and has an interesting story to tell. Through informal yet substantive conversations, conservationist Ed Roberson introduces you to these fascinating characters, giving you a better understanding of their careers, influences, and outlooks, as well as a deeper appreciation for life in the American West.

  • 1 hour 11 minutes
    Dr. Alan Townsend - Generosity & Curiosity in the Face of Tragedy

    Dr. Alan Townsend is a scientist, author, and Dean of the Franke College of Forestry & Conservation at the University of Montana. His new book is titled “This Ordinary Stardust: A Scientist’s Path from Grief to Wonder,” and it’s an unbelievably powerful book. It’s the story of Alan’s family being rocked to the core by two unthinkable, back-to-back tragedies– his four-year-old daughter and wife both being diagnosed with brain tumors.

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    Alan is a highly trained, Ph.D.-level scientist who spent his entire career using cold hard facts, emotionless inquiry, and academic rigor to try and solve some of the world’s most pressing problems. Yet when faced with a father/husband’s worst nightmare, he was forced to accept that science alone was simply not enough to make it through the gauntlet. I was blown away by Alan’s insightfulness and vulnerability and how he managed to constructively meld science and spirituality to make sense of an unimaginable catastrophe.

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    Alan was born in Hawaii and grew up in Montana, where he spent much of his youth hunting, fishing, and exploring the West’s wide-open landscapes. His education and career in science allowed him to delve deeper into the natural world, giving him an even more intense respect and appreciation for the beautifully complex biological systems that make our world work. He’s worked in Amazonian forests and Costa Rican jungles, and he’s published more than 140 peer-reviewed articles. But, as you’ll hear in this conversation, Alan also embraces the more ethereal and unknown aspects of our existence, and he has a gift for discussing and writing about them in a very powerful and helpful manner.

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    We met up at Alan’s office at the University of Montana, and had a very meaningful conversation about grief, curiosity, generosity, open-mindedness, focus, and family. We discussed Alan’s upbringing in Montana, his path to becoming such a highly trained scientist, and his process of re-evaluating the limits and usefulness of science in the face of tragedy. We talked a lot about his late wife Diana and her unbelievable toughness and his daughter Neva, who thankfully beat the tumor and is now a happy and healthy young lady. We discussed the compassion and skill of medical professionals, Alan’s years-long process of writing the book, and the indispensable role of his agent and editor. Alan also offers some wise, hard-earned wisdom for anyone who may be going through their own set of challenges.

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    I loved this conversation, I loved the book, and I really appreciate Alan taking the time to talk with me. Be sure to click through the link in the notes to grab your own copy of "This Ordinary Stardust." Hope you enjoy.

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    4:10 - An introduction to the power of Alan’s book

    6:10 - The importance of focus in Alan’s book, and the strength of Alan’s wife and daughter

    10:40 - Discussing Alan’s writing

    13:40 - Alan’s birth and early childhood in Hawaii

    15:30 - When science became a focus for Alan

    17:00 - Alan’s reading choices

    18:45 - When Alan found out his daughter Neva had a brain tumor

    21:00 - How Alan got through this incredibly challenging period in his life

    23:15 - The importance of routine for finding mental stability and peace in difficult times

    25:15 - The power of curiosity in Alan and his wife, Diana’s, life after Diana was diagnosed with brain cancer

    27:45 - The difference between people who are curious when it is easy to do so and those who remain curious when life becomes difficult

    30:15 - Why Alan reevaluated his relationship with science, and how he challenges readers to do a similar reevaluation in his book

    37:15 - How we share more than we don’t, regardless of political belief

    39:15 - How Diana invited Michael Brown into their home to learn more about his work with FEMA, demonstrating the importance of respecting and learning from people with different opinions

    45:00 - Unpacking the theme of generosity in Alan’s book

    47:45 - How Alan handled vulnerability and the desire for this book to have impact

    49:45 - Alan’s relationship with his agent and editor

    52:15 - Discussing Doctor Henry Freedman

    56:00 - Alan’s take on how doctors dealing with mortality are able to handle the difficulties of that subject on a daily basis

    58:15 - Alan’s work right now

    1:01:30 - The next 5-10 years for Alan

    1:02:45 - Of generosity, curiosity, and the willingness to fail

    1:03:45 - Alan’s book recommendations

    1:08:00 - Alan’s parting words of wisdom

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    17 July 2024, 7:31 pm
  • 1 hour 3 minutes
    Pete McBride Returns - Exploring & Documenting His Backyard River

    If you’re a longtime Mountain & Prairie listener, then you’ll definitely remember Pete McBride. He’s a renowned photographer, filmmaker, and author, and he’s joined me on the podcast twice before– once to discuss his epic hike of the length of the Grand Canyon, and then to chat about his global search for silence in a very loud world. I’m glad to say that he’s back again, and this time, we’re chatting about his backyard river– the mighty Colorado– and the challenges, opportunities, and realities facing the people and wildlife that depend on it.

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    Pete’s newest book is titled “The Colorado River: Chasing Water,” and it features Pete’s stunning photography and insightful essays, along with a foreword by Nick Paumgarten and an introduction by Kevin Fedarko. The book follows the Colorado River from its headwaters in the Rocky Mountains all the way down to the Colorado River Delta, where it peters out just before reaching the Gulf of California.

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    I’ve read a lot of books about the Colorado River and water in the West, but “Chasing Water” opened my eyes to a number of very specific and sometimes-maddening challenges facing the Colorado River Basin. The book delves into issues such as the unchecked exportation of water-intensive alfalfa to foreign countries, how dust leads to increased evaporation and water loss, as well as more optimistic topics, such as how Las Vegas has become an imperfect-yet-inspiring case study in responsible water conservation. But at its core, the book demonstrates Pete’s deep love and respect for the Colorado River, and showcases his two decades of dedication to telling the story of this world-famous waterway.

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    We met up at Pete’s house in Basalt, overlooking the Roaring Fork River, and talked about all things water and conservation. We started by talking about Pete’s father, and how his advice many years ago led Pete to shift his focus from global adventure photography to the Colorado River. We discussed the disconnect between people and their water sources, the challenge of using an over-appropriated water source to grow food for an entire country, Pete’s firsthand experience observing changes in the river and surrounding landscape, his work with Indigenous communities throughout the basin, and his preferences between photography, filmmaking, and writing. We also discuss some of his recent favorite books, and much, much more.

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    Be sure to check out the episode notes for a full list of everything we discussed and links to all of Pete’s books.

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    A big thanks to Pete for graciously letting me barge into his house and hassle him with questions yet again, and thank you for listening. 

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:30 - All the places Pete has seen in the Colorado River watershed

    6:30 - How Pete’s dad influenced Pete’s career 

    11:30 - The immense changes to the Colorado River over the course of Pete’s father’s lifetime

    13:00 - Reconciling how much of the West’s water comes from the Colorado, and how few people know it 

    14:30 - Pete’s hope for his new book

    18:00 - Pete’s style of writing for this visual book 

    21:00 - Discussing how much Colorado River water goes to cattle and cattle feed, and the water challenges that face agriculture 29:00 - The impact of dust on Rocky Mountain snow, and how that impacts the Colorado River

    34:30 - Highlighting an unexpected water conservation success story: Las Vegas, and how southwestern cities can start conserving their water. 

    39:00 - How many times Colorado River water has been reused along its trek to Mexico, and discussing the state of the Colorado River Delta

    44:45 - How Peter wants to divide his time between books and films, and a discussion about “earning” hope

    53:00 - Pete’s work with Indigenous communities’ access to Colorado River Water

    1:01:00 - Pete’s book recommendations

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    3 July 2024, 3:32 pm
  • 57 minutes 9 seconds
    Peter Gower & Chris Menges - Forward-Looking Approaches to the West's Energy Transition

    Peter Gower is the Nature Conservancy’s Climate and Renewable Energy Program Director for the Western United States and Canada Divisions, and Chris Menges is the Director of Climate Action for the Colorado Chapter of the Nature Conservancy. Both Peter and Chris are on the front lines of North America’s transition from fossil fuels to renewables, working to find solutions that protect and benefit working lands, natural landscapes, wildlife, and communities.

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    As you’ll hear in this episode, the transition from fossil fuels to renewables is an incredibly complex process, and Peter and Chris are highly skilled at breaking down the issues and explaining them in a substantive yet easy-to-understand manner. While the details of their work may be complicated, everything Peter and Chris do is built on the very simple foundation of strong relationships, partnerships, and trust, which has been the common theme of all of these TNC-focused episodes.

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    We connected virtually and had a great conversation about The Nature Conservancy’s work in the renewables space, exploring everything from TNC’s big-picture strategies in the American West, down to a few on-the-ground examples of successful initiatives and projects. We discussed how TNC is working with Western states to help them achieve their energy goals and some of the specific renewable work being done here in Colorado.

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    We also talked about the challenges of finding sites for renewable energy projects, how market incentives can be used to ensure siting that benefits both people and nature, and recently passed legislation in Colorado that addresses these issues. We chatted about TNC’s extensive research in the renewables space, including its Power of Place studies. As usual, we discuss their favorite books and some resources to learn more about the issues surrounding renewable energy.

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    Renewable energy has long been one of those topics that I have never been able to fully wrap my head around, but after this conversation, I felt that I had a solid foundation of knowledge– as well as the curiosity and desire to go out and learn more.

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    A huge thanks to Peter and Chris for devoting the time to have this extremely educational conversation, and thank you for listening.

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    This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.

    On the last Tuesday of every month throughout 2024, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond.

    To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:20 - The state of renewables in the West (Peter)

    8:05 - Chris’s renewable work on the ground in CO with TNC (Chris)

    12:35- Challenges and opportunities associated with finding physical sites for renewable projects (Chris)

    15:50 - Examples of market incentives that Chris thinks would help develop renewable sites to the benefit of as many interests as possible (Chris and Peter) 

    22:20 - Discussing the Power of Place studies (Peter)

    26:35 - Other major challenges to implementing more renewable energy solutions (Peter)

    33:05 - Discussing the Connected West study, to be released soon (Peter)

    36:20 - Building relationships with businesses and large entities (Peter)

    39:05 - Discussing Colorado SB24-212 (Chris)

    47:35 - Developing renewable energy sites on “brownfields” (Peter)

    51:05 - Where to learn more about renewable energy (Peter and Chris)

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    25 June 2024, 10:56 pm
  • 1 hour 15 minutes
    Beatriz Soto - Bridging Cultural Divides & Building Equitable Communities

    Beatriz Soto is the Director of Protégete, a statewide program from Conservation Colorado, whose mission is to elevate Latino-driven solutions to protect our lands, water, air, and fight for environmental and climate justice. Prior to joining Conservation Colorado, she held a number of leadership and founding positions with conservation-focused organizations here in Colorado. At her core, Beatriz is a gifted and highly effective leader, one who combines her professional expertise with her unique personal story to act as a cultural bridge and give voices to both underrepresented communities and the threatened lands and waters of the West.

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    Beatriz is originally from Chihuahua, Mexico, and she spent her childhood and youth in a bicultural setting between Mexico and the United States. She graduated from Colorado’s Basalt High School, and then went on to study architecture back in Chihuahua City, Mexico. For nearly 20 years, she applied her talents in architecture and design to a wide range of projects, from Net-Zero affordable housing projects to high-performance strawbale homes and everything in between, in locations ranging from the Pacific Coast of Mexico to Colorado’s Roaring Fork Valley. But as you’ll hear in the conversation, she eventually realized that she wanted to work more directly on issues including conservation and community vitality, so she pivoted and began her new career as a conservation leader in Colorado.

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    Beatriz and I connected virtually and had an inspirational and instructive conversation about her amazing life story and her present-day conservation work. We talked about her bicultural upbringing between Mexico and the US, and the realities of growing up as an undocumented child. We discussed her family’s emphasis on service and community, and how those values have expressed themselves throughout her career. We talk about the uncertainty that accompanied her transition from a career in architecture to a career in conservation and advocacy, and why she decided to apply her talents to the mission of Conservation Colorado. We discuss the mind-boggling process of becoming an American citizen, how she builds trust with community stakeholders, her favorite books, and much more. Be sure to check out the episode notes for a full list of everything we covered.

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    A huge thank you to Beatriz for taking the time to share her wisdom, and thank you for listening.

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    This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation.

    To whom much is given, much is expected. This value guides the philosophy behind the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation today.

    Committed to its cause and infused with an entrepreneurial spirit, Mighty Arrow aims to invest in solutions that take action on climate change to build a more vibrant future, repair relationships from farm to market to table, heal our connection to the lands and waters we call home, and demand a more just and equitable society.

    To learn more about Mighty Arrow’s forward-thinking, optimistic, and visionary work here in the American West and beyond, please visit www.mightyarrow.org.

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:30 - Beatriz’s childhood

    5:30- What brought Beatriz and her family from Mexico to the US

    8:30 - Reflecting on adaptation within Beatriz’s very mobile childhood

    11:30 - Whether or not looking back on the US from Mexico changed Beatriz’s outlook on the US

    14:00 - Beatriz’s experience growing up undocumented, and how that affected her upbringing

    17:45 - Where Beatriz’s commitment to service comes from

    22:45 - The importance of community

    24:15 - Beatriz’s goals in college

    26:30 - Beatriz’s work in design and architecture

    33:00 - Beatriz’s shift away from design and architecture, and the fear that comes with transitions like that

    36:30 - How long it took Beatriz to feel like it was the right move to shift from professional architecture to conservation work

    39:30 - When Conservation Colorado came into Beatriz’s world

    43:15 - Beatriz’s day-to-day work with Conservation Colorado

    48:30 - Whether or not leaders and stakeholders are happy to hear from Beatriz and her team

    51:15 - How Beatriz handles rejections from potential partners

    53:30 - Discussing the Colorado Latino Justice Handbook

    1:00:00 - What is next for Beatriz

    1:02:45 - How Beatriz became a documented American

    1:04:30 - Discussing how to simplify an overcomplicated immigration process

    1:08:45 - Beatriz’s book recommendations

    1:11:15 - Beatriz’s parting words of wisdom

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    19 June 2024, 11:00 am
  • 54 minutes 58 seconds
    "Good Fire, Bad Fire" - A Film and Discussion About Forest Health

    This is a special episode recorded live in Bozeman at the premiere of the important new short film titled "Good Fire, Bad Fire: Inside the Race to Restore America’s Forests."

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    On the evening of May 16, 2024, around 200 folks gathered at Bozeman’s Museum of the Rockies to watch the 15-minute film, which captures the breathtaking beauty of our nation’s forests and delves into the urgent crisis threatening their existence. Following the screening, I moderated a panel discussion featuring an extremely impressive line-up of some of the nation’s leading conservationists and forest-health experts. The on-stage conversation gave us the opportunity to dig deeper into some of the issues raised by the film, and glean valuable insights into the importance of responsible forest management from ecological, recreational, economic, and policy perspectives.

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    “Good Fire, Bad Fire” was directed by filmmaker Eric Ian, and produced by the team at the Property and Environment Research Center, better known as PERC, who also hosted the event.  The panelists you’ll hear in this episode are:

     

    • Brian Ferebee, Chief Executive of Intergovernmental Relations for the U.S. Forest Service

    • Randy Newberg, renowned conservationist and Host of Fresh Tracks and Hunt Talk with Randy Newberg

    • Morgan Varner, Director of Fire Research at Tall Timbers

    • Corey Lewellen, District Ranger for the Bozeman Ranger District

    • Hannah Downey, Policy Director at PERC

    • Brian Yablonski, CEO of PERC (and a past Mountain & Prairie podcast guest)

     

    I could’ve spoken with each of these experts individually for several hours, but having them all share a stage and combine their wide range of expertise into a single conversation was a powerfully educational experience.

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    While you can listen to this episode on its own, I would strongly encourage you to first spend 15 minutes watching “Good Fire, Bad Fire” as a primer.  There’s a link in the episode notes and it’s embedded on the episode webpage.

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    I’d also encourage you to check out the episode notes for a full list of all of the topics we discussed, which included everything from a history of fire as a resource management tool to the Forest Service’s evolving approach to wildfires and forest health. We talked about forest health’s impact on hunting and fishing, the pros and cons of policies such as the ESA and NEPA, on-the-ground success stories, optimistic good news about the future of forest health, and much more. There were tons of resources mentioned, all of which are listed and linked on this episode’s webpage.

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    A huge thanks to Brian Yablonski and the team at PERC for creating such an important film and for inviting me to participate in such an enlightening conversation. I hope you enjoy the film as much as I did, and I hope that this discussion provides some new insights into the all-important issue of forest health in the American West.

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:15 - Introductions 

    6:15 - Where the USFS stands right now on its approach to wildfire and forest health (Brian F)

    8:45 - A hunter and public lands advocate’s perspective on the state of the forests (Randy)

    10:30 - A brief history of how fire became a resource management tool in the US and before the US (Morgan)

    13:45 - Discussing obstacles to the forest management work described in Good Fire, Bad Fire (Corey)

    18:00 - How we can streamline large federal processes like the ESA and NEPA (Hannah)

    21:00 - Why PERC became involved in this forestry work (Brian Y)

    23:15 - What is preventing ideal progress on forest management in Montana (Brian F)

    27:30 - How Randy would recommend hunters and anglers take action and advocate for forest health

    31:00 - Discussing how lessons in forest management from the Southeast can impact forestry in MT (Morgan)

    35:15 - On-the-ground success stories in forest management (Corey)

    39:45 - An example of fire outpacing procedure, and the impacts that can have (Hannah)

    41:15 - How discussions of conservation and forestry are received by elected officials (Hannah)

    43:00 - Predictions for the next five years of forest management (Morgan and Randy)

    47:15 - Brian Y’s optimistic take on the state of forest stewardship

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    6 June 2024, 4:59 pm
  • 1 hour 32 minutes
    SHED SESSION - Everything I Know About Starting a Podcast

    This is a special Shed Session episode, normally published exclusively for Mountain & Prairie Patreon supporters. In it, I answer the most common question I receive, which is some variation of "How do I start a podcast?"

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    In this episode I answer that question in excruciating detail, laying out everything I know about it, based on my own bumbling, meandering, eight-year journey through Podcastlandia.

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    I hope this episode will provide a little bit of actionable guidance that will allow you to put your own unique ideas into the world.

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    To listen to all past, present, and future Patreon-exclusive episodes, you can sign up at www.mountainandprairie.com/patreon. Memberships start at as little as $2 per month.

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    Back to the regular episodes next week!!

     

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    [2:15] - Intro

    [6:55] - Disclaimers

    [10:00] - How and why I started Mountain & Prairie

    [22:13] - Intentions

    [28:12] - Getting started + endurance

    [39:25] - Finding your voice, authenticity, enthusiasm

    [52:55] - Finding an audience

    [1:03:09] - Interview techniques

    [1:08:48] - Finding guests

    [1:11:40] - Dealing with negative feedback

    [1:15:14] - Equipment and editing

    [1:21:38] - Money (least important!)

    [1:25:54] - Further reading

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    RESOURCES:

    2 June 2024, 8:55 pm
  • 1 hour 8 minutes
    Dan Stellar - Bolstering Biodiversity in Arizona and Beyond

    Dan Stellar is the State Director for the Arizona Chapter of The Nature Conservancy, where he leads the organization’s efforts across a wide range of cutting-edge initiatives, including forest health, water conservation, resilient cities, healthy grasslands, and more. Arizona is one of the nation’s largest and most biodiverse states, which creates a host of extremely unique conservation challenges and opportunities– both in its arid, wide-open landscapes and densely populated urban centers. As you’ll hear, Dan and his team are implementing conservation solutions that not only benefit people and nature specifically in Arizona, but they are also creating actionable conservation frameworks that can be applied all over the American West.

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    Dan was born and raised on the East Coast, and he has spent his career in the non-profit sector, applying his talents to important issues both domestically and abroad.  He began his tenure at TNC Arizona in 2016, when he assumed the role of Deputy State Director. He quickly fell in love with Arizona and TNC’s critical work in the state, and, in 2020, he assumed the role of State Director. Dan is also a committed endurance athlete, and he’s run a mind-blowing number of marathons and half-marathons. And on top of all of that, he’s a dedicated father, husband, and family man.

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    Dan and I share so many common interests in conservation, endurance sports, and family, so I was super excited to have the opportunity to learn more about the specifics of his work and his fascinating personal and professional journey. We started the conversation with an overview of what makes Arizona such a unique place from a conservation perspective, then we dug into the details of TNC’s work in forest heath, rivers, aquifers, outdoor recreation, and resilient cities. We talked about some of the lessons he learned from traveling and working internationally, why he chooses to push himself so hard athletically, and how he goes about building such strong relationships with stakeholders, partner organizations, and his TNC team members. Dan is also a voracious reader, so we obviously chatted about books, and he wrapped up the conversation with very wise parting words.

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    I really felt like I’d met a real kindred spirit in Dan, and I greatly appreciate everything that he and his team are doing to make Arizona– and the West– a better place. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

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    This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.

    On the last Tuesday of every month throughout 2024, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond.

    To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:30 - Setting the scene for conservation work in Arizona

    8:45 - Forest health work in Arizona

    15:00 - Aligning profit motives with forest health goals

    22:00 - Whether or not there are down-sides to forest thinning

    25:15 - Discussing the Verde River

    31:15 - Discussing the Big Chino Aquifer 

    35:00 - Collaborating with the Trust for Public Land to build a new park in Arizona

    39:45 - TNC’s work with cities in Arizona

    46:00 - Dan’s passion for running, and his attraction to doing hard things

    50:15 - How Dan fits running into his schedule

    52:00 - How Dan became interested in conservation

    57:30 - Dan’s lessons from traveling

    1:00:00 - Dan’s book recommendations

    1:04:30 - Dan’s parting words of wisdom

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    28 May 2024, 11:01 pm
  • 1 hour 3 minutes
    Sandy Colhoun - Building Leaders Through Outdoor Education

    Sandy Colhoun is the President of the National Outdoor Leadership School, also known as NOLS.

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    Founded in 1965 by legendary mountaineer Paul Petzolt, NOLS is widely considered to be the world’s premier wilderness school, and its mission is “to be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills and leadership that serve people and the environment.” NOLS operates in many of the world’s wildest outdoor classrooms, and it provides the highest quality instruction in many outdoor skills, including wilderness travel, mountaineering, rock climbing, sea kayaking, and more. But perhaps most importantly, through these outdoor adventures, NOLS students learn the foundational and all-important life skills of leadership, teamwork, humility, and responsibility.

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    Sandy was named the seventh President of NOLS in October of 2023, after serving as the interim President and, before that, as a member of the NOLS Board of Trustees. Prior to his work with NOLS, he had spent much of his career in the worlds of education and journalism, most notably leading a $750 million fundraising campaign at Colby College in Maine. Sandy is also a proud graduate of a NOLS Wind River Mountaineering course, and he’s no stranger to hardcore outdoor adventures– he worked as a ski patroller in Park City, climbed in Alaska, Nepal, and Bolivia, and cycled up and over the Himalayas from Tibet to Nepal. As you’ll hear in our conversation, he’s focused, driven, and lots of fun, and he’s s fully committed to leading NOLS into the future.

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    I’m a proud graduate of a 1999 semester-long NOLS course, which was hands-down one of the most formative and valuable experiences of my entire life. Yes, I learned plenty of outdoor skills that have served me well for nearly 25 years now, but the most important lessons were those that taught me the value of good exhibition behavior, being comfortable in uncomfortable situations, and keeping a positive attitude when life gets difficult. If not for that semester, I highly doubt I would’ve ever moved out west, worked in conservation, or started this podcast. So, I’m obviously a superfan of all things NOLS.

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    I was so excited to chat with Sandy, and we covered a lot in our hour-long conversation. We discussed the history of NOLS, what separates NOLS from other wilderness schools, risk management, exhibition behavior, expanding one’s comfort zone, a description of the ideal NOLS student, Sandy’s own leadership style, his vision for the future of NOLS, how he will measure success, leaders that Sandy admires, favorite books, and much more. Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to everything we discuss.

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    A huge thank you to Sandy for being so generous with his time and for everything he and the entire team at NOLS do to make the world a better place. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy!

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    4:00 - A brief history of NOLS

    8:15 - What sets NOLS apart from other outdoor schools

    10:30 - Discussing NOLS’ partnerships

    13:00 - How NOLS manages risk

    16:30 - The talent of NOLS instructors

    19:00 - What “expedition behavior” is

    22:15 - How NOLS recruits students in a world that prioritizes job opportunities and career advancement

    24:45 - How NOLS expands one’s comfort zone

    28:45 - The ideal NOLS student

    30:15 - Determining the next chapter of NOLS in the early 2020s

    33:30 - Sandy’s career pre-NOLS

    37:00 - Sandy’s leadership style

    42:30 - How Sandy got his mind around the task of taking the helm at NOLS

    46:00 - Measuring future success at NOLS

    49:00 - Leaders that Sandy admires

    52:15 - Sandy’s book recommendations

    58:15 - Sandy’s parting words of wisdom, and how you can support NOLS

     

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    22 May 2024, 8:28 pm
  • 1 hour 15 minutes
    Kami Bakken - How to Build a Life and Career in the West's Wide-Open Spaces

    Kami Bakken is a river guide and outdoor advocate, and she currently serves as the Director of the Freeflow Foundation and Director of Ambassador and Grant Programs for Rivers for Change. A native of Minnesota, Kami headed West for college at Colorado State University, where she earned a degree in Human Dimensions of Natural Resources. Since graduating in 2018, she has been fully focused on helping others explore and appreciate the mountains and rivers of the American West, while also advocating for their protection and conservation.

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    Kami and I met in 2023 when she was the facilitator on my Green River Freeflow Institute workshop through Dinosaur National Monument and the Gates of Lodore. During our weeks of preparation for the course and our five days on the river, I was so impressed by her expertise in outdoor education and river travel, and perhaps more importantly, by her ability to connect with a wide range of people in a sometimes-intense wilderness setting. She’s humble yet confident, earnest yet hilarious, and I credit her with so much of the success of that workshop.

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    When I was in my late 20s and deep in a traditional career in the real estate business, I dreamed of having a life and career like Kami’s– one that combined adventure and wide-open spaces with purpose-driven work. So I wanted to chat with her in depth to learn more about how she has made it all happen. If, like I was, you are interested in learning the realities of following a non-traditional but deeply fulfilling career in the outdoors, then you’ll definitely learn a lot from Kami.

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    We met up a few weeks ago at my house in the Springs and had a wide-ranging and funny conversation about her life, career, adventures, and crazy misadventures. We talked about what drew her to Colorado for college, and some of the challenges of adjusting to such a new place and environment where she didn’t know anyone. We discussed some of her wild experiences traveling in the West and internationally– including a few run-ins with cult-like groups– and how she took the leap to become a sea kayaking guide and eventually a western river guide. We talk a lot about her commitment to pushing outside of her comfort zone, overcoming fear and discomfort, and why she’s drawn to conservation work. We also discuss the financial realities of seasonal work, how her non-profit work compliments her guiding work, her career plans for the future, and her roles with the Freeflow Institute and Foundation.

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    And it’s worth noting that Kami and I will be heading out on the river again this summer for another Freeflow workshop, this time on Oregon’s Wild & Scenic Rogue River– August 15th through 20th. As of this recording, there are still a few spots left, so you can follow the link in the episode notes to learn more about the workshop and apply. As of this moment, you can use the secret code “ED200” to get $200 off of the tuition.

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    A huge thanks to Kami for agreeing to let me ask her a bunch of weird questions, and more importantly, for all of her leadership and support on our river trips. Enjoy!

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED

    4:00 - Where Kami is from

    5:00 - Why Kami went to Colorado State, and how her family felt about that decision

    9:00 - How her early experience in Colorado led her to WWOOF (and apparently a couple of cults)

    15:30 - Kami’s return to CSU, and her entry into the world of outdoor recreation

    19:30 - Kami’s travel adventures post-graduation

    22:00 - Kami’s time with Protect Our Winters

    24:15 - Kami’s transition to professional guiding

    27:45 - Where Kami’s desire for connection and impact led her career next

    31:45 - What Kami’s friends from college were doing while she was raft guiding, and whether or not she has ever questioned her career path

    33:30 - Exploring the difference between contentment and happiness, and some more details about the outdoor education and rafting nonprofit that Kami worked for

    37:15 - Kami’s transition to the Freeflow Foundation

    44:00 - Discussing the Freeflow Foundation

    45:45 - Balancing safety with growth driven by risk

    50:00 - The trip that Ed and Kami did together on the Green River

    54:45 - What makes for a good outdoor guide, and what makes for a bad one

    59:00 - Who Kami admires 

    1:03:00 - Kami’s next steps

    1:05:45 - What worries Kami

    1:09:00 - Kami’s book recommendations

    1:10:30 - Kami’s advice for those who want to try a new lifestyle or career

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    15 May 2024, 9:21 pm
  • 1 hour 2 minutes
    Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook

    Hampton Sides is a Santa Fe-based historian and bestselling author who has written many books that are favorites of Mountain & Prairie listeners, including "Blood and Thunder," "On Desperate Ground," and "Ghost Soldiers." His newest book is "The Wide Wide Sea: Imperial Ambition, First Contact and the Fateful Final Voyage of Captain James Cook," which is available now and sitting high on the New York Times bestseller list. If you’re a longtime Mountain & Prairie listener, then I’m sure you’re glad to see that Hampton has joined me for yet another podcast conversation.

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    Much of Captain Cook’s epic third voyage takes place far from the mountains and prairies of the American West, in tropical paradises including Tahiti and Hawaii. But what you may not realize, is that a big portion of his final voyage was spent exploring and mapping the west coast of North America, from the rocky shores of present-day Oregon and Washington, all the way up to Alaska. While I was somewhat familiar with Cook and his explorations, I didn’t fully understand or appreciate the mind-blowing scale of his journeys or his impact on world history.

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    As is the case with all of Hampton’s books, he melds together deep and extensive research with thrilling storytelling to make the process of understanding history as entertaining as it is educational. While Cook is obviously a central figure in "The Wide Wide Sea," the book also profiles numerous fascinating Polynesian and Indigenous historical figures, including the Tahitian man named Mai, whom Hampton and I discussed at length in our September 2021 episode. If you haven’t already listened to that episode, I’d encourage you to do so when you’re done with this one– there’s a link in the episode notes.

    -

    Hampton and I met up here in Colorado Springs, one of many stops on his book tour for The Wide Wide Sea. As usual, we had a fun and at times very funny conversation about history, his research and writing process, and all things Captain Cook. We started out discussing why Hampton is drawn to write about controversial historical figures, and we talked at length about how he combined historical accounts from Europeans with those from the Indigenous communities that Cook visited. We talked about the mystery of Cook’s dramatic personality change, how Cook’s arrival disrupted the equilibrium of Polynesian cultures, Cook’s leadership style both before and after his personality change, how Hampton organized such massive amounts of research, and how and why he works so hard to get his books into the world. He also gives a sneak peek into his next book, which will based here in Colorado and explores one of the West’s most notorious massacres.

    -

    A huge thank you to Hampton for taking time out of his busy schedule to chat with me again, and thank you for listening. Enjoy!

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    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    4:30 - Discussing Hampton’s recent time on the road, and why Hampton values in-person readings

    7:00 - Why write about Captain Cook

    10:45 - Captain Cook, pre-1776

    16:45 - Cook’s ship

    21:15 - Exploring Cook’s mental health

    25:30 - Exploring humans’ predisposition towards greed

    29:30 - The importance of doing boots-on-the-ground research for history

    32:00 - How Cook kept scurvy at bay

    34:30 - Hampton’s biggest unexpected discovery while writing The Wide Wide Sea

    38:00 - Whether or not Hampton experienced apprehensions about telling the story of a complicated person like Cook

    42:00 - Discussing the circumstances that led to Cook’s death

    45:45 - Discussing some of Cook’s personality traits and cultural differences between Cook and the Māori 

    49:30 - How Hampton organizes his quotes for writing

    53:45 - How Hampton actually sells his books

    58:00 - Hampton’s plans for the future

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    8 May 2024, 11:08 pm
  • 1 hour 15 minutes
    Celene Hawkins & Izabella Ruffino - Tribal Partnerships, Indigenous Voices, Cutting-Edge Conservation

    Celene Hawkins is the Colorado River Tribal Water Partnerships Program Director for the Nature Conservancy, and Izabella Ruffino is the Tribal and Indigenous Engagement Program Manager for the Colorado Chapter of the Nature Conservancy. Both Celene and Izabella use their skills to advance and support tribal-led land and water conservation work throughout the American West.

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    Most of Celene’s work is centered around the Colorado River Basin, and she has played an integral role in many cutting-edge water conservation projects that have sought out Tribal voices and Indigenous perspectives to create some of the West’s most effective and equitable solutions to complex water challenges. Perhaps most notably, she worked with the Jicarilla Apache Nation, the New Mexico Interstate Stream Commission, and her colleagues at TNC to create a first-of-its-kind water agreement that was a true win-win for nature and people.

    -

    Izabella’s work builds on TNC’s strong foundation of partnerships with Tribal Nations for land and water issues, and she is also focused on expanding Tribal and Indigenous engagement into all aspects of TNC’s wide-ranging conservation work. Additionally, she is responsible for internal efforts to fortify organizational cultural awareness and humility within TNC’s Colorado Chapter. As you’ll hear, Izabella is doing everything from leading internal educational initiatives to working with wide-ranging stakeholder groups on projects such as determining the best uses for TNC-owned land and preserves.

    -

    In this episode, we dig into the details of many of their specific projects and initiatives, but we also talk more broadly about the importance of seeking out Indigenous perspectives to help guide TNC’s critical conservation work around the world. They both offer plentiful resources– online courses, books, podcasts, essays, and more– that will help me (and you, the listener!) better understand the importance of bringing together diverse perspectives to guide the next chapter of conversation work in the West and beyond.

    -

    Celene and Izabella mention so many excellent books, people, and resources, so don’t forget to check out the episode notes for links to everything. A big thanks to them both for such a fun, inspiring, and educational conversation. I hope you enjoy!

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    This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.

    On the last Tuesday of every month throughout 2024, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond.

    To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org

    ---

    TOPICS DISCUSSED:

    3:30 - Introductions

    8:30 - The win-win partnership between the Jicarilla Apache Nation, the New Mexico Interstate Stream Commission, and TNC

    14:00- Challenges and opportunities related to putting together the partnership deal

    19:00 - Benefits to all parties as a result of the deal

    21:30 - Positive ripple effects resulting from the partnership

    24:15 - TNC’s strategies for managing its preserves, including the Medano Zapata Ranch

    29:15- The process of gathering Indigenous and local perspectives

    32:00 - Strategies, tactics, and frameworks for building cross-cultural relationships

    36:30 - Balancing the time it takes to build solid relationships with the reality that “time is of the essence”

    40:30 - Upcoming exciting projects

    44:30 - Resources for further learning

    50:30 - Why they each chose to apply their talents, skills, and careers to the cause of conservation

    55:30 - Heroes and mentors

    1:05:00 - Favorite books

    1:11:00 - Parting words of wisdom

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    ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:

    30 April 2024, 9:20 pm
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