We were titillated to speak to the scintillating Jenny Freaking Williamson. Jenny is one of the co-hosts of Ancient History Fangirl, which we like to consider part of the unofficial but highly exclusive #ladypodsquad. Jenny and Genn have been on our show before to discuss their fabulous book, Women and Myth, which was released in 2023. However, today Jenny is here to discuss a solo venture. She has just completed her debut novel, a historical romantasy called Enemy of My Dreams, slated for release through Harlequin in February 2025 and available for pre-order now.

Enemy of my Dreams is set during the late Roman Empire and focuses on a romance between an imperial princess named Julia and a ‘barbarian’ leader, Alaric of the Visigoths. Julia was largely inspired by three historical figures: Julia the Elder (daughter of Augustus), Galla Placidia and Honoria.

It was a delight to hear about Jenny’s process in crafting historical fiction.

Special Episode – Enemy of my Dreams with Jenny Williamson

Here are some quick bios for the ladies in question!

Julia the Elder

Julia the Elder was the only biological child of Augustus, which was a nasty surprise for him. Without a son, Julia’s importance as a dynastic pawn grew. She was married off to her cousin, then Augustus’ BFF Agrippa, and finally her stepbrother, Tiberius. Although it was normal for an elite woman to marry for the benefit of her family, there was a huge amount of pressure on Julia to in these scenarios, especially as her last marriage a trainwreck. Let that be a lesson to you – don’t marry your step-siblings!

Julia was suddenly exiled for scandalous behaviour in 2 BCE… or was she plotting against her father? We will never know. All we can be sure of is her fate. Julia was exiled to the island of Pandataria before her exile was moved to Rhegium. She was never allowed to return and died of “malnutrition” early in the reign of Tiberius, her ex-husband. If Augustus intended to put his errant daughter in her place, mission accomplished.  

  

Bust of Julia the Elder by Egisto Sani on Flickr. 

Galla Placidia

Galla Placidia lived hundreds of years after Julia, in the twilight of the 4th century CE. She was the daughter of Theodosius the Great, a very capable emperor (as the name implies). Sadly for Rome, he died in 395 CE and left the purple to his sons, Honorius and Arcadius, who split the empire between them. Placidia resided in the west with Honorius

These were not easy times for Rome as there was a lot of movement around their borders, and within the empire. The Goths were looking for a new home and the Roman Empire was it! The Romans were not always so thrilled by this prospect. In Placidia’s youth, they decided to unite behind a Visigoth named Alaric. Alaric was a pretty successful guy, and in 410 CE he and his followers managed to penetrate the walls of Rome itself. It’s hard to put into words how shameful and shocking this event was for the Romans.

It became even more embarrassing when Placidia was taken captive by the Goths. She remained with them for years, eventually marrying Alaric’s brother-in-law Athaulf, who became the leader of the Gothic forces after Alaric’s death. It is one of the tragedies of history that we know so little about this time in her life. Did she and Athaulf fall in love, or did it just seem wise to marry a man of status, given the circumstances?

This could have been an interesting union that changed history as we know it, except that Athaulf was murdered soon after their wedding and eventually the Romans found the time to negotiate for her return. Placidia was married to her brother’s right-hand man, Constantius, whom she despised. Hatred is not an effective birth control method, and she had two children by this marriage. Honorius had not produced any children, so Placidia’s son was a likely heir.

Placidia was highly respected in her lifetime for her piety and for her capabilities. When her brother died, she helped to engineer the succession of her son, Valentinian III. As Valentinian was so young, Placidia acted as regent, and she never really left the imperial stage. This probably had something to due with the fact that Valentinian was as useless an emperor as Honorius. She died peacefully in 450. She did not have to witness the assassination of Valentinian a few years later.

Honoria

We know very little about Honoria, the daughter of Galla Placidia and sister to the rather pathetic Valentinian III. Honoria was either born with a wild streak or developed one because she was oddly left single for too long, which was a weird status for an imperial princess. After an affair with one of the imperial stewards, she was being forced into a marriage with a rich senator. That oughtta fix this whole situation!

Honoria refused to go down quietly. She may have contacted Atilla the Hun, the latest barbarian threat on the block. She sent him a ring and asked for his help – was this an offer of marriage? Atilla certainly thought so.

We don’t know much about Honoria’s life after this treasonous act, aside from the fact that Placidia intervened to prevent her execution, and she was not given over to Atilla when he came knocking for his bride. She fades into obscurity, best known for this bizarre rebellion.   

Jenny Williamson pictured with her book.

Enemy of My Dreams

You can order Enemy of My Dreams now through your local independent bookstore, as well as online suppliers such as Amazon. Use this link! For our fellow Sydneysiders, you might consider Abbey’s Bookstore.

If you’re keen to follow Jenny’s work, we suggest checking out her blog and the wonderful Ancient History Fangirl podcast.

And if you would like to read more about the history behind this novel, you might consider consulting the following:

• A History of Roman Empire in 21 Women by Dr Emma Southon – a highly readable, humorous work which has a chapter on Galla Placidia.
• Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire – our light-hearted guide to Rome which contains entries on both Julia and Galla Placidia.
• Alaric the Goth: An Outsider’s History of the Fall of Rome by Douglas Boin
• At the Gates of Rome: The Battle for a Dying Empire by Don Hollway
• Galla Placidia: The Last Roman Empress by Hagith Sivan
• Julia Augusti by Elaine Fantham
• Women and Politics in Ancient Rome by Richard Bauman, which has a relevant chapter on Julia the Elder’s time
• As well as the many primary sources on both of these women, many of which can be found online

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Speaker 1 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Speaker 1 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:54
Welcome to this special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G

And I am Dr Rad

And we are absolutely thrilled to be joined today by Jenny Williamson. Now we have talked to Jenny before. She is one of the fabulous co hosts of ancient history fangirl and part of the exclusive and unofficial lady pod squad. So we had Jenny and Jen on the show to discuss their book, women and myth, which was released in 2023 which doesn’t feel like that long ago, but at the same time, is actually ages ago. And we’re really excited to have Jenny here today to discuss her latest solo venture. She’s just completed her debut novel, which is labeled as a historical romanticy. And I love that sort of portmanteau of going on there, and it is called enemy of my dreams, and it’s going to be coming out in February 2025, at the time of recording. It’s a pre order situation. But maybe when you hear this episode, it’ll be out and about, in which case you should just go and grab it. Welcome to the show. Jenny,

Jenny W 2:08
hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr G 2:12
It is an absolute pleasure.

Jenny W 2:16
So much fun.

Speaker 1 2:17
So look, enemy of my dreams is right up our alley as it takes place in the later Roman Empire. We love our things Roman, and one of the lead characters is Alaric of the Visigoths. However, we are most interested in your female lead, Julia, daughter of the Emperor of Rome, Theodosius the great. And we’re here to talk about the history that inspired you to create this intriguing character today. So we believe that there are three women from ancient Rome whose lives inspired your story, Julia, the elder, daughter of the First Emperor. I’m using my little flesh rabbits there Augustus, as well as some women from the fifth century CE such as the Empress gala Placidia or plaquitia, depending on your preference, and her daughter, Honoria. So we’re very excited to delve into that today.

Jenny W 3:14
Yes, I am so thrilled to talk about all these ladies.

Dr G 3:18
So I think we’d still like to start with, like, maybe the originator of bad women under the imperial system, and that would be Julia the elder. And I love this woman. She’s great. I’m wondering if you can talk us through a little bit about her family connections and her character. Yeah,

Jenny W 3:40
so Julia the Elder is such a she’s such a fun character for me. And I really, I think that my very early draft of this book, my Julia was just absolutely straight up Julia the elder, like she was just and Julia the Elder as a, sort of like very surface reading of Julia the Elder, who is very much just like a party girl who likes to sleep around and do what she wants, you know, which is kind of like I said the surface reading, she was the only biological child of the Emperor Augustus, quote, unquote, Emperor Augustus, you know. And listeners of our podcast will also know him as Octavian. We had a whole series about Mark Antony and Cleopatra, in which he figured very prominently. And we’re gonna do a series on him later on in the year, I think, where he takes the Empire the, you know, Rome from Republic to Empire. So she was his only biological daughter, his only child, and he had her with, I believe it would have been his second wife, scribonia, and his first wife. I think, was I correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think it was the daughter of Fulvia, who he married very early on and then wound up cruelly rejecting based on the sort of wars that he was having with Mark Antony, who was her dad. So that was his second wife, Scribonia, and I think he divorced her while she was pregnant. And definitely did, yeah, embarrassing, yeah, to marry his third wife, Livia, who was also a badass. And I believe that Julia the Elder as a child, was sent to live with Livia, her stepmom, and was taught to be like a noble woman in her house. She grew up and was engaged to various people, starting at a very young age, wound up being married, I think, first to her cousin at a very early age, I want to say, like 14 or 15 or something like that. Her cousin was Marcellus, was maybe a few years older. He died, and she wound up being married to Agrippa, her dad’s best friend, who was also her dad’s age. Ew, yeah, gross. They were married for a little while. They had a bunch of kids together, and then when Agrippa died, her dad married her off again to his other son. Was it his adopted? I don’t know. How are they related…?

Dr G 5:57
Yeah, Tiberius, he’s Livia’s son.

Jenny W 6:00
right? That’s what it was, you’re right. He did adopt him, yeah, he adopted him. So, like keeping, keeping their, you know, family trees straight in my head is always a struggle. But it was her step brother. So yeah, it was, yeah, she was engaged her own step brother. They hated each other. And I think ever since her marriage to Agrippa, there were rumors about Julia the elder, you know, sleeping around, having boyfriends. And as far as I know, this really kind of got started with Tiberius, who also had been married to somebody else, and was made to divorce that person, to marry Julia. Neither of them were happy about it. And at some point, Augustus was trying to put he was trying to take Rome from Republic to Empire. And he was doing a lot of things like trying to craft this sort of unifying story about who Rome was, and change the laws to, like, restore what he considered to be, quote, unquote, Roman greatness. And one of the problems he noticed was that the women they were just were having affairs and being slutty and horrible things. So he was like, you know, tightening these laws around women and reducing their freedoms and kind of expecting them to be more embodying of the traits of a, you know, virtuous Roman Matron. This involved a lot of spinning. As far as I know, he really expected his daughter, Julia, to embody all of these traits of like an upright Roman matron herself, and she just did not want to do it. And there were all these wild rumors about her sleeping with with men in the forum and doing all kinds of crazy things. And she got exiled to Pandatarea, where it was kind of like a prison situation. And she was there for, I don’t know, several years, like very, very curtailed, and was eventually allowed to come back. I think she might have been, I’m not 100% sure, but I think she might have been exiled several times. She

Speaker 1 7:46
was allowed to return to the mainland, I believe, for some of her exile, but she was never taken out of exile, and she actually died in exile under Tiberius, yeah,

Dr G 7:58
yeah. So yeah. Part of what happens is that when Julia is exiled. So this is in around two BC, she goes to Pandataria, this island in the Mediterranean. And do you think to yourself now, oh, that sounds not so bad, but it’s not ideal when you’re an imperial daughter and you’re used to living in the city, and now you’re on like, you know, a goat ridden island in the middle of the Mediterranean. Her mother, Scribonia, goes with her, so that’s nice. She’s got a mum, and they do have fun, so they’re able to live a modest life. But what Tiberius does is he withdraws all funding from the exile, so they are essentially a starved to death. I don’t know how they end up actually dying, but the withdrawal of funds sort of means that they’re unable to maintain any life whatsoever, and it seems like they maybe haven’t made enough friends on the island to sustain a life and be taken in by others.

Dr Rad 8:58
Ancient Rome. Survivor edition, yeah, exactly.

Dr G 9:02
It’s like, there were only chickens here.

Jenny W 9:05
I don’t think there would have been people to befriend. I mean, there were maybe not even that, I don’t know. Like it was a very dire situation, right? I remember doing an interview with an author who had written a book, kind of a fictionalized version of the life of Julia the younger, and Julia the elder was in it as well. Who Julia the younger was also exiled for something like 20 years. And we were discussing like, the dangers of having this happen, where you were ex, you’re sent into exile and then starved to death, or perhaps, you know, beaten by the guards, or really mistreated like this is not a good situation. And what she was telling me, her name is Tana Rebellis. She has she’s written some really interesting, I think it was a duology about Julia the younger. But what she was discussing was how, you know, the power of Augustus in his time meant that the guards were gonna be pretty careful about Julia the elder, at least maintain her health and make sure she was okay. When Augustus died like that, was when you had to worry about the guards. That’s when it got a little more dangerous because you didn’t have that protection anymore. Yeah,

Dr G 10:07
and certainly, like, the orders are now coming from somebody else, and they’re coming from somebody who has not liked her time. Think

Speaker 1 10:15
we all have nightmares about our ex being in control of our lives. No, like, Oh no,

Dr G 10:20
Tiberius is now in charge. But I really enjoy the focus of what is Julia the elder trying to do, because she’s kind of like a classic, sort of stick it to the man figure in this scenario, because she gets caught in the forum, that’s the rumor. And she’s kind of got this whole group of senatorial young bloods who are very happy to like party on and have orgies in the forum. So it’s like she’s hanging out with some very elite characters, and she’s really flaunting it all. And at the same time, this is precisely when Augustus is building up his reputation, and he’s been awarded a really prestigious title pater patriae, the father of the Fatherland. So he’s kind of gotten to this real pinnacle of his own political success, but at the same time that family life is like completely falling apart. And I think there is a really nice mirror to the opening scene of your novel, of how your protagonist, Julia, is kind of as we meet her for the first time, and the kinds of things that she’s up to gives that real sense of somebody who’s like, I’m going to do exactly what I please. I have the right I’m in a position of power. Life is here for the taking

Jenny W 11:37
exactly. And I think in my book, I was also really thinking about, and I’m sure, like, this was, this is an issue for Julia too, because she kind of lived in the midst of this time, like, what happens when there’s a transfer of power, you know? And that’s always a really dangerous time for for emperors and, you know, ruling, ruling families and their survivors when they die. So just thinking about how, how the rules are going to change, and they’re changing underneath her. And my Julia doesn’t really realize that that is what’s happening until, until she does kind of too late.

Dr G 12:06
Yeah, interesting. So when we’re thinking about the connections between, like the ancient source material and the way that you’ve interwoven it into this new form, what were the sort of aspects of Julia the elder that really appealed to you, and which elements Did you really try to bring in for this novel?

Jenny W 12:26
So I really enjoyed, and like, I said, like, I really enjoyed this idea of, here’s here’s this woman who’s just kind of careening LIKE A WRECKING BALL through this very upright society, and just, you know, having these orgies and doing whatever she feels like, and probably having a lot of sex and drugs and just that is not normally what you hear about women in the ancient world at all. So I was just very drawn to this party animal character, and I think I wanted to bring that into my book. But you know, my my Julia, has reasons why she’s like that and things that she’s sort of coping with by sort of drowning her sorrows, basically, and it’s like a coping mechanism for her. But I was also thinking about Julia the elder, and kind of how she’s perceived, and all these screwless rumors that kind of show up in the sources about her and other figures, where you kind of wonder, like, is this the whole story? Did this actually happen this way, or is this kind of a smear campaign? So my Julia is, she’s kind of wild, but she’s not as wild as you think at first. And there are, of course, like rumors swirling around her, just like there would have been rumors around Julia the elder, and that was something that really interested me later, is that, you know, the reasons given for her exile, and whether they, in fact, did involve her sleeping around, or whether she was doing some deeper plotting against her dad, is kind of something I’ve always been interested in, yeah,

Dr G 13:46
and that’s the thing, isn’t it? Because what we get in the historical source material a lot of the time, we have to question it, because the political invective nature of how do you make it possible to exile somebody like you? Do have to find a way to really trash their reputation. And is it more useful to say openly that there was a political plot against you? It’s probably not a great move that might just encourage more plots, for instance, so being able to find a way to tarnish somebody’s character is a much more convenient way of ensuring that they’re effectively disposed of, and people can no longer associate with them because it becomes hugely problematic. And also, like, if they’re stuck on an island, good luck. How are they going to organize anything from there?

Jenny W 14:30
Exactly, exactly. So my Julia, I would say she’s, she’s a partier, but she’s also a plotter, you know? So I kind of was inspired by those two sides that I saw in Julia the elder that I kind of wanted to be true, fair enough.

Speaker 1 14:43
I definitely got visions of I saw Megalopolis, which I would not recommend to anybody, but the opening sequence of Megalopolis, where they have this character of Julia as a party girl. I definitely got visions of your Julia like. When I was reading your book from that movie,

Jenny W 15:03
I have got to watch this. I have got to watch it. I haven’t seen it yet. It is so terrible.

Speaker 1 15:07
It’s honestly one of the worst movies I have ever seen in my whole life. Oh, wow. The fact that it is inspired by ancient Rome is the reason why I went to see it. But oh my god, what a trash fire. What a mess.

Jenny W 15:22
My goodness, I feel like I maybe just have to watch the first scene then,

Speaker 1 15:26
yeah, maybe the opening five minutes. That’s what I would recommend you watch. Gotcha. So thinking about Julia the elder and how you wove various pieces into your book, I was just wondering what specific sources did you actually revisit? Because, as you said, you’ve done a series where Julie the elder was a major feature in the podcast before, when you were writing the book. Did you go back to any of the ancient source material, or were you more using sort of secondary sources? What was your sort of process with that? So

Jenny W 15:56
it’s been so long since I actually had to do it, you know? But like, I remember going back to, like, the gossipy sources like Cassius Dio has some things to say about Julia, if I remember right, who else covered her Suetonius. I honestly forget at this point. But like any book that I could find, and I used a lot of secondary sources, too, and fiction, like whatever I could find, basically, and my own imagination, you know, because that’s ultimately what it’s about?

Speaker 1 16:21
No, I think what you’ve done is actually, it’s really hard for people that tend to write history, which obviously is what we all do when we’re podcasting. I find it really interesting to think about taking all of that material and then turning it into a fictionalized story, because it sort of goes against, in some ways, what we’ve been trained to do in terms of using so much of your imagination.

Jenny W 16:46
Yeah, I think that’s true. When we started the podcast, Jen and I remember being very, sort of intimidated by the idea that I would have to be correct about things, because I did not train as a historian at all, like I have a degree in English, so I was always a little bit nervous, what if I just, you know, write this whole episode about something and just completely because I was, I loved history. I always loved history, but I was just like, what if I just get it wrong? And what’s interesting about that in the podcast, in fangirl is that we have a lot of historians and archeologists who listen to us. So far, that seems to be a lot of our fan base. And I’m just like, that seems to be going okay so far. But it’s not, it’s not that weird to me, because we always kind of incorporated that into our podcast already. You know, like we do Jen and I, my podcast co host and I, we’ve done a lot of sort of fictionalized, kind of micro fiction intros to podcast episodes that we’ve done. Then we do a lot of extrapolating, you know, and kind of fan fictioning, and like imagining these scenarios and things like that, and picking a lane like I’m sure you have to do that as historians too, where there’s many different possibilities of how the sources could be interpreted, or how the archeology could be interpreted. And you kind of even, even when you have that material in front of you, you have to kind of craft a story about what has happened here in order to make sense of it. So I don’t know, like I feel like in my work, in the podcast, I find myself using my imagination more than I thought. Yeah,

Dr G 18:15
definitely, I would agree with that, because, and particularly for ancient history, like modern history, you’re almost overwhelmed by the amount of source material you have access to, so you’ve really got to pick a niche. But with ancient history, I feel like it’s more like you’re crafting a lace, or you’re a spider that’s sort of creating a web. And like, what can you connect to? What and what would be most plausible to connect to something else given the other little pieces of information you’ve been able to scrounge together. So ultimately, the imaginative process is fundamental to doing ancient history, because you’re trying to join together things that are just sort of sitting slightly far apart from each other, and how they are connected is going to be the key, and you have to make that connection. Yeah,

Jenny W 18:57
I think that’s exactly right. Yeah. I

Speaker 1 19:00
think it’s more the idea of having to put it all into the format of a fictionalized book, you know, having the actual conversations and interactions between characters and, you know, and really fully fleshing out the pieces where we don’t know as much and that sort of aspect, that’s where I think I would struggle,

Jenny W 19:19
yeah, like giving them a voice, like, What do they sound like, you know, when they’re irritated or when they’re excited, or, you know, like, well, actual words come out of their mouth, and what would that sound like if you translate that into English? Yes, I frequently struggle with dialog.

Speaker 1 19:32
I can, I can understand that. That’s, I think, where I would struggle. As you say, it’s not that unusual for us to have to pick a lane, but then to have to turn that into something that is more of a story where you’ve got people interacting and having those sorts of moments between each other. It’s a different kind of style of writing completely to what we tend to do.

Jenny W 19:52
Yeah, and it’s just to for me in this moment, it was two characters who obviously never met, like if I took Julia the Elder and introduced her to Alaric of the Goths, how would that conversation go like? These are two people from wildly different parts of the empire, from the beginning and the end, you know. So that also kind of interested me as like an exercise is to bring those two people together in a way, and just see what kind of sparks flew and like, how would their understanding of the world be different? And I think, like in the very, very beginning of the book, when I first started it. This was ages ago, and I was really, did not know what I was doing, and I was just kind of playing around. I was like, what if Augustus just lived in the time of Alaric, and this was the real Julia the Elder, like, what if I just did that? And I had, like, a few, you know, scenes written, you know, Intro scenes written with just Julia, where that was her dad instead of her brother. And there were lots of conversations about these, you know, laws, these, sort of like, “women can’t be slutty anymore” laws, it was just me having fun. But that is definitely a huge source of inspiration for me. Is these, this sort of wild, what if of history, absolutely.

Speaker 1 21:02
So we can definitely see the influence of Julie the Elder in the characterization, particularly earlier on in your novel, but obviously a large part of your inspiration comes from much later in Roman history, and that is talking about Galla Placidia. Now I’d say that a lot of our listeners probably have heard of Julia the elder, but they probably haven’t heard that much about Galla Placidia. She is definitely a lesser known figure, even though she was also very important at Rome’s history. So can you tell us a little bit about her family background, her connections and the time in which she lived?

Jenny W 21:37
Yeah, absolutely so Galla Placidia, she was the daughter of Theodosius, the real daughter of Theodosius, and Theodosius was this emperor who lived in the late three hundreds. AD, I don’t think he made it into the four hundreds. Ad, I’m trying to think, but he was a really big figure in the history of Roman Christianity, and establishing Christianity as the state religion of Rome. I think he was involved in the Nicene I think he was like the guy who laid down the Nicene Creed, which established Nicene Christianity as the state religion that would be different from Arian Christianity, which was the form of Christianity that alarca The Visigoths was part of. So she was his daughter, and she would have been in Rome during multiple Alaric related sieges, or, like, you know, invasions, he made it down to Rome several times. Yeah, he got there a couple of times. Yeah, yeah. It’s actually kind of weird, because I’m like, there are so many times when he made it into the peninsula and then had to leave, and then made it all the way down, and then kind of went up again and then back down. Like, there was a lot of moving around, you know, but she was in the city for a lot of that, I think, 15 years old. There was news of Alaric at one of his sieges. This was not the final one, coming down the peninsula and setting fire to cities along his way. And all these, this horrible news of like sacking and burning, terrible things happening. And the people in Rome were freaking out. And there’s all this paranoia. At one point, the priests in the city, these would have been Christian priests, allowed the pagan priests, the worshipers of the old religion, to fire up the old altars again because of all this, you know, horrible stuff happening, and they wanted them to appeal to the gods in every way that they could. And the wife of Stilicho, the old general who had been Alaric’s main opponent, the guy who had been keeping him out, who had previously been executed for suspicion of colluding with Alaric. And that’s a whole backstory of its own. Anyway, he had been executed. His wife, Serena was arrested on the belief that she was somehow colluding with Alaric. And like, strangled and Galla Placidia at one point, I think, was like witness that, and like, voted for it, or something like that. And from that early age, she just had this kind of cold spine to her that just fascinated me. And she was in the city of Rome when it was sacked by Alaric and the Visigoths. We’re not sure exactly how she came to be in his entourage, but she was probably a captive who was taken at that point, she possibly met Alaric himself, but she wound up marrying Alaric’s second in command, and his brother in law, Athaulf. Athaulf was this guy who was another Gothic warlord type of guy, said to be very attractive, said to be also short. So, you know, hot, but we is kind of how I pictured him. Here. They got married. It’s, there’s all kinds of stuff in Edward Gibbon about, like, the history of Rome, about her dowry, which is absolutely amazing, like she supposedly had this enormous table made entirely of precious stones that had 365, legs and, like, just giant gold, solid gold plates, the size of wagon wheels and all kinds of crazy things, supposedly awesome. And I’m just like, you know, reading all this, I’m like, How can I work this in? Where do I put the giant table in Alaric’s war tent? So supposedly, depending on the source you. This is really kind of presented as these were two people who fell in love, which is another thing that really drew me to this story, because that’s another thing you actually don’t see a lot in in the sources about women in the ancient world falling in love with somebody that they wind up marrying, like a lot of is a lot of these noble marriages were like, marriage is a convenience, and if this is a kidnapping, obviously you would not think that that would be the case. And I think that that there are definitely sources that don’t show it that way. And I think modern historians that I’ve read have been more skeptical of that interpretation. So it kind of depends on how you see it. But that’s one interpretation. I remember being super drawn to that, because I was just like, oh my gosh, a situation where it’s not the worst for the woman, how about that? So I liked it. And I thought, you know, I have early commentary about my book and the way I kind of wove Galla Placidia in. I don’t use that name. I couldn’t have her fall in love with Athaulf because he gets killed by this guy who was a servant of an enemy of Alaric about, like, a year or maybe two years in the bath after they get married. So they don’t stay married long, and it’s not a happy story for that reason. So I couldn’t have written just a straight historical fiction romance novel about them. I kind of had to make it my own thing. And I definitely, you know, allergic dies five minutes after sacking Rome, so that that had, like, I knew it was suspending disbelief anyway, writing this book, and I wanted to give it a happy ending, so that’s what I did. And, you know, early, sort of, you know, reviews about this book have pointed out that this is not historically accurate, like, if I wanted to write a romance novel about this time period, why didn’t I just write about gull of lasidia? And my answer to that is, well, because that wouldn’t be a romance novel, because romance novels have to have a happy ending any way I did it. If I was writing about Alaric, or if I was writing about Ataulf and Galla Placidia, I would have to completely change it to give them the happy ending anyway. So as long as I was messing with the history, I wanted to do it my way,

Speaker 1 27:02
absolutely. I mean, that’s the whole idea, again, of writing historical fiction and not writing a history

Jenny W 27:09
Exactly, exactly. So Galla Placidia, after a tough dies, she gets basically sold back to the Romans. They’re like a series of unfortunate events that happened where the Goths are in a terrible position again and wind up having to negotiate with the Romans to survive and send her back, along with a bunch of other concessions, she winds up marrying this general called Constantius, who she loathed, down to her soul, hated this guy. I think that’s pretty clear in the sources, as I remember, he eventually becomes emperor, and then dies, and then she becomes Empress, and rules for about 12 years. And she is really, really good at it. Rules completely with an iron fist. She’s like, very good at, like, negotiating disputes. She oversaw a lot of building projects in Ravenna, and was really pretty much undisputed. And I just love the idea of my Julia kind of growing into the gala Placidia, part of herself over the course of this story. So that’s kind of part of the clay I was working with.

Speaker 1 28:12
I kind of imagine Agrippina, the younger, loving the position that Galla Placidia ends up having, which is after making it through all the marriages and all the men, she ends up getting to be regent for her son and effectively being Empress of the Roman Empire, which I think is what Agrippina the younger probably had in mind when Nero came to reign, and it just didn’t work out for her that way. Oh, absolutely.

Jenny W 28:35
And, I mean, I think that there’s a lot, there’s a there’s a huge interesting conversation to be had, because we saw how Cleopatra dealt with her brother husbands, you know, having them killed off. As long as you have a son who is a child, you can rule undisputed. But once that kid gets to be about Nero’s age, he’s like, 15 years old, he starts to want to do it himself. Then you have a problem, you know, and you see Cleopatra having a similar situation with these brother husbands that she’s married to who are like, you know, 12 years old. I mean, she starts to assassinate them. At least that’s the rumor. I don’t know that’s actually all 100% historically accurate all the time. I’ve

Dr G 29:16
got opinions. They’ve got to go,

Jenny W 29:18
you know, there’s all kinds of stuff happening here, where, as a woman, if you want to rule, you have to rule through this son that you have most of the time if you’re alone, you don’t have, like, a husband. So that can be a problem as the son ages, unless, unless you have a good relationship with him, or, like, you know, you work it out somehow, I guess.

Speaker 1 29:39
Valentinian the third from memory was not the most inspirational character in history.

Jenny W 29:47
No, no, I don’t know what happened with him.

Dr Rad 29:51
Nothing good.

Jenny W 29:53
Yeah, I

Dr G 29:55
think it’s a really interesting aspect of history, is that we get the. Women who grow up in the imperial court, so they’re very familiar with how things are done. They understand that on some in some respects, that they’re locked out of official power in many ways. And we see that with particularly with Honoria as well. And yet, if they get the chance, some of them are like, I can make this work, and it’s like, I found my conduit. I’ve got the small child. It’s a man that’s great, and now I can start to leverage within that system of power, which I’m very familiar with. I know he’s working against me, but if I say I’m speaking on behalf of this kid over here, all of a sudden I can get some stuff done. And I was like, it’s like, really face in the face of adversity, finding a way to be powerful anyway, which I think is pretty cool.

Jenny W 30:50
Yeah, I think it’s fascinating, too. And it’s also dangerous. Like, I think that as your son ages, that can become a time of transition that’s dangerous for women rulers. Just as you know, times of transition when a male king dies could be dangerous for everybody. And

Speaker 1 31:02
it’s interesting to think about you using Galla Placidia as well, because, as you highlighted when you were talking about the timing of her life, it isn’t a completely different Rome. It’s the room that most people don’t really think about because it’s not often presented in popular history, I think, is effectively as earlier parts of Roman history, because this is a really Christianized version of the Roman Empire. And as a result, the way that our sources write about people is different to the way that say, you know your Suetonius, your A Tacitus, would write about people. So what sense Did you really get of the character of Galla Placidia when you were crafting her, I just

Jenny W 31:44
got this sense of just this is a woman who is going to make it work no matter what. You know. She finds herself in the midst of this Gothic horde of people who has just sacked her city and she’s gonna rule them. And she finds herself depending on this man who maybe makes her marry him. I don’t know exactly how that would have happened, but, or maybe she fell in love with him, but what I suspect is that she wound up having to marry him because he took a shine to her. He decided that it would be politically advantageous to him to marry the daughter of Theodosius. And she decided, I’m going to rule over this man, and then I’m going to rule over your people. And when that fell apart and she wound up going back to Rome and having to marry this other guy, she made it work that way as well. Like she was somebody who was just not gonna she was not gonna take anything lying down, you know, like, whatever situation she came into, she was gonna dominate that situation. And that was really interesting to me.

Dr Rad 32:38
It is really interesting when you think about the what if of that situation, because, as you say, definitely the accepted version of things, even though modern scholars might be a bit more skeptical about it, is that there was some sort of affection or relationship developing between Galla Placidia and her husband, Adolf in that they had a child, they seem to have been really sad when that child died, and if her husband hadn’t died so quickly as well. I mean, who knows what would have happened, given that her son ends up dying only a few years after she does, and it’s during these increasing problems with the quote, unquote, barbarians. It’s just so interesting to think about what would have happened if gala had managed to hold everything together and have preserved a union between the barbarians, again, flesh rabbits and the Romans. Yeah.

Jenny W 33:36
I mean, I think that it would have been a stronger kingdom, you know, because she she leaves it at a point of weakness. And I’m gonna do a whole series coming up on the history of the Goths, and what happens to the Goths after this whole episode with the Romans, after they move out of Italy and things like that like that’s also just really interesting history, but I haven’t quite gotten to that yet. It’s a big undertaking. That’s a lot of them. That’s the thing. It’s a huge undertaking. And that’s what part of what made this book so heavily fictionalized, like how I had to write it that way, is because there’s so much we don’t know about Gothic culture. We have reams and reams and reams and reams and reams of military history, but there’s a lot we don’t know about how they saw things in just sort of daily life. And it’s really easy to assume that they were kind of proto Vikings for various reasons, but that may not have been the case. I am doing a deep dive later. I’m not sure, but I made some choices in the book, you know, because there’s a lot of gaps to fill in,

Dr G 34:38
for sure, and I think in a way that becomes like a perfect sort of Canvas for historical fiction, because we don’t have those insights into exactly how they live their lives, how their leadership was structured in many respects, and sort of like cross culturally between different Gothic groups as well. Were not sure about when they really sort of came together and decided to work in a more unified way, and what led to that? So there’s lots of potential for coloring in all of those gaps to create a really rich world for the reader to explore. Yeah, exactly.

Jenny W 35:17
And that’s just so much fun like that is something I absolutely love to do. And

Dr Rad 35:21
so I’d love to ask for Galla Placidia, because, as I say, she’s someone that people don’t know as well, but she definitely was a major part of your character of Julia. What kind of source material was out there for you for her? So

Jenny W 35:35
I think I first met her in Edward Gibbon. So like the honestly, I’m terrible with names of books, so I should have had a list of things. There is Jordanes, there’s Zosimus. There’s various writers at the time who come at this mainly from a Christian lens. I would say, I think it’s Jordanes, who is actually Gothic and who is writing a history of things. Those are like sources from my for the world in general, and about Alaric, and some of them also talk about Galla Placidia and Athaulf as well. So I think there was one, I forget the name, but there was one that was definitely talking about the relationship between Galla Placidita and Athaulf as servitude. That was the word that was used. But most of them talk about it as she fell in love with him, and he was very handsome, if just a bit short, but she didn’t mind. They were in love. One

Dr Rad 36:25
down, full,

Jenny W 36:27
right? No, she was like, You know what? I like a guy who’s my height. I don’t know. I mean, that’s definitely, I feel like that’s just definitely a more positive interpretation that I really fell in love with at the time. But you never, you never know with these things, and I don’t know, but I was very intrigued by this idea of a woman who could, who could just walk into that situation and make it hers. Yeah,

Dr G 36:49
I think it’s really tricky, because obviously we don’t have sources from the inside for that kind of situation, but obviously as a hostage, there is a certain degree in which it would be wise to follow along certain decision making paths in order to preserve yourself and to try to create a ring of safety around you and a bit of a buffer. So if somebody has taken a shine to you, for instance, and he does happen to be a little bit shorter, and to all of our short kings out there. Don’t worry. It’s okay. No,

Speaker 2 37:22
sure, it’s all right, yeah, yes, yeah. Well,

Speaker 1 37:27
her brother wasn’t exactly the most again. I mean, this is another another woman who isn’t surrounded by men who were not the most capable, inspirational characters. Her brother was also a bit of a waste of space. Basically, I think her dad is the only one who anyone it would look at and go. Now there’s an emperor. Her brother and my son were kind of a waste of space.

Jenny W 37:52
That is so true.

Dr G 37:55
She’s doing the best she can. I

Dr Rad 37:56
think the interesting thing about Galla Placidia, as opposed to characters like Julia and Agrippina the Younger, who I’m just mentioning because of her ambition, not because she necessarily has any connection to your book. But the thing about Galla Placidia is that living in this Christianized world, it did give women a different set of tools to play with, I suppose, and a different avenue for power, because if they were admirable religious figures, it kind of, I think, allowed men to admire them and respect them in a slightly different way to what they had before. Yeah, and

Jenny W 38:34
that comes up in the sources, how she was perceived. I believe she’s described as beautiful and very pious, and that was kind of a shield that she was holding. And remember that the Goths at this point were also Christian, so that would have been something that that was respected. I did a very early episode, like one of the first episodes that I ever did was about, I did a kind of a series about Alaric, Athaulf, and Galla Placidia, and Honoria and Attila the Hun and in the Athaulf and Galla Placidia episode. This is many, many years ago, like when we first started the podcast. Started the podcast, I made a case that the Gothic culture was less misogynist than the Roman one, and would have valued women more highly, even if they were both Christian at the time, like they had a long history of venerating women as ciruses and listening to them as, you know, community leaders. And there wasn’t the sense. One of the things that I picked up on was this sort of scorn for love that occurs, at least in upper class aristocratic Roman culture, like, for example, Pompey was a wife guy and was ridiculed for it. And this happens occasionally, where, you know, people really make fun of someone for loving their wife, and it’s kind of looked down on, is like, Oh, you’re just kind of enthralled by this woman, and love was seen as this madness and things like that

Speaker 1 39:49
disgusting. I’ve never heard of such films, right?

Jenny W 39:52
I mean, the appropriate feeling for your spouse should be a sort of fondness and familial duty. That’s what you’re supposed to feel. You’re certainly not supposed to get too excited about it. So this idea that maybe the Gothic culture gave Galla Placidia a little bit more room to breathe, I like the idea that maybe she enjoyed that about it when she found it.

Speaker 1 40:14
It is so intriguing to think about the possibilities of what her life was like in that very brief moment where she was living amongst them, yeah.

Jenny W 40:22
And this is, of course, fan fiction on my part, mostly, and potentially fan fiction on the sources part, depending, you know, because we don’t have anything from her point of view, I think it’s high, highly likely that when she got into that situation, she wasn’t like, I mean, maybe, I don’t know, maybe she fell in love with a tall first glance, unlikely. I think it was a bad situation that she was trying to make the best of. She could make this guy enthralled with her all the better. And then, if she could, once she was back in Rome, things worked out for her there too. And I think that kind of shows that that was the kind of person she was

Dr G 40:57
good at making the best of a bad set of circumstances.

Jenny W 41:00
Yeah, good, good at, like, walking into a situation that would be really bad and just ruling it fine of steel. And I just respected that about her, like that was the thing that came across to me.

Speaker 1 41:12
Well, I think you’re right. I think when we’re talking about her character, as I said, after her father died, which was in 395, ce really, there were a lot of, I mean, I suppose it’s not the best way to characterize them, but weaker rulers. There weren’t really any strong Roman emperors after Theodosius, and it was the people around them that were more holding things together. I think, after that, particularly if we’re talking about, obviously, this sort of Western Roman court, and gallopicity is one of those people. We also have all these, again, quote, unquote, barbarian figures, and we also have people like Constantius, who, even though galapaciti Apparently couldn’t stand him, these are the strong characters around the Emperors that seem to be driving events and holding things together. But the Emperors themselves a very meh from this time period, yeah,

Jenny W 42:03
and, and, I mean, that is kind of a, you know, in a way, she has a channel of power because her son is sort of her, her excuse to hang on to power when she is in that position. But there are situations where we kind of see Agrippina, the Younger doing this with Claudius, you know, like there are situations where women to hold on to power need a strong husband that they can operate through. So potentially, at that point, a tough was that guy, maybe potentially where she’s like, all right, I can work with this clay.

Speaker 1 42:35
Now, just to wrap up, we’re not going to go into heaps of detail, because, to be honest, there’s not heaps of detail to be had, but we did mention at the top that Honoria was also worked into this story somewhat. She’s a very shadowy figure in the histories, and we have even less from her point of view than we do about someone like Galla Placidia. Can you tell us a little bit about Honoria and how she factored into your story as

Jenny W 43:01
well. Oh yeah, this is actually one of my favorite parts. So Honoria was gala Placidia, his daughter with Constantius, and she did not want to marry the guy that her mom picked out for her, and she rebelled. And what is wild about this is that Galla Placidia, theoretically, again, depending on if you believe the sources, had been married to a man that she maybe loved or had some affection for, possibly, and then married to a man that she absolutely loathed, consensus, and she was really adamant that her daughter was going to marry this man that she loathed, which is wild to me, like this, this idea that she was going to make her daughter do this thing. And so Honoria, at this time, Attila the Hun was kind of ravaging various territories in Rome, and I don’t think he had made it all the way into Italy or had made it to Gaul yet, but what she did was she, essentially, she sent him a message inviting him to come and get her,

Dr G 44:03
please. Yes, babe, I would really appreciate

Jenny W 44:06
and get me and I will marry you. Get me out of here. Is that amazing? And as far as I remember, this is a very long time ago that I did these episodes. But this is something that stuck in my mind. He basically took this as a pretext, you know, well, if I marry this woman, that means I own half the Roman Empire. So he invaded on that pretext alone, before they were even married. Now, I don’t think these people ever met. Honoria was, I believe, eventually forced to marry somebody, or there’s a question mark about what happened to her. I’m not sure she might have been sent into exile. Again. These are like just various theories that I’ve seen come across, but I’m not sure. I don’t think people know, as you said, but yeah, she and Attila the Hun never met in person. And that, again, that scenario, again, was one of the inspirations for this book. And like, I kind of played with the idea of Augustus and Julia the elder living in 410 ad. I also played with the. Idea that maybe this romance novel I was writing was about anoria and Attila the Hun, like, what if they met in person? My Julia kind of propositioning Alaric of the Visigoths, comes from that sort of that just absolutely balls to the walls, you know, rebellious spirit that anoria had, and like, this absolute refusal to just do what most women did at that time, which is, marry who your parents told you to.

Dr G 45:26
Under no circumstances. I’d rather marry a hun. Everyone’s like,

Jenny W 45:30
at least she picked him out herself. I mean, granted, she hadn’t met him, but

Speaker 1 45:36
it is wild when you think about the reputation that Attila the Hun has, yeah, it is wild to think about a Roman imperial Princess being like, you know what? I don’t like the guy that you’ve picked for me, mom. I’d like that guy well.

Jenny W 45:51
And I think at one point, Honoria was sent to live with the Eastern Roman court, which was a lot more rigidly Christian than where she was living before. So if I remember, right, I don’t know if this, honestly, don’t know if this is fan fiction at this point, but I wrote, I wrote an intro to this episode that I did about Honoria, where she’s in the Eastern Roman court, and she’s been living this extremely strictured Christian life, and she can’t stand it. And there’s this point where Attila the Hun is bearing down on Constantinople. And there’s all these wild like, like with the Alaric story, you know, there’s all these wild rumors flying before him about his brutality and all of the horrible things he’s going to do to the city as soon as he gets to it. And the people are building the walls that have been just destroyed by an earthquake, and they have, like, two weeks to do this, or, you know, some extremely short time to do this before the the Huns are going to get here, and everybody’s praying for the walls to rise, and anoria is praying for the walls to fall and for the Huns to just sweep into the city and burn everything and rescue her from this extremely rigid lifestyle. Like that. She just it just didn’t fit her. She couldn’t stand it. That’s who anoria is in my head. I think about that all the time like that. What she was refusing to do was what women did all the time, like that was extremely common back then, is just you married whoever your parents told you to marry, and that was it. And if you were 15 and he was 50 years old, that was fine. That’s just what people did. Or, you know, whatever other horrible situation it was like the these were, you know, women and girls who did not get a choice, and the fact that she just dug in her heels and said, No, nobody did that like gala Placidia didn’t even do that well,

Dr G 47:28
not directly, but as Honoria is sort of growing up and witnessing what is happening in the imperial court. It’s her mom in charge. So it’s kind of like as a child, I think you would be seeing very much a situation where you’re like, Well, mom gets to do what she likes.

Speaker 1 47:48
I know just imagining this confrontation where it’s like, But mom, you got to run off with a barbarian who open you, and my age is a son. That’s such

Jenny W 47:56
a good point. Like, why can’t I have a barbarian husband? You got

Dr G 48:00
to do it. Yeah. And I think maybe if I’m thinking of like, in a historical fiction kind of way, I feel like that conversation will be like, But mom, you already said you love that guy, and it’s like, I just want my own. How bad

Jenny W 48:13
could Attila the Hun be really? I mean, isn’t it all just girl is rumor Exactly. It’s

Speaker 1 48:21
also that thing of, as you say, We know so little about anoria, which is mental because she is often brought up as being a key factor in Attila the Hun attacking at this point in time. But again, it’s that question of, was that just some sort of pretense on behalf of the sources to blame it all on her, when maybe Attila was going to attack anyway. Or maybe there were much larger reasons. It’s so hard to understand, but at the same time, you can understand why he would if he thought there was a chance of nailing an Imperial Princess, yeah.

Jenny W 48:53
Or just, you know, maybe this comes up in my book, where my Alaric kind of sells the idea of being married to a Roman Princess, to his people by saying, like this, this is obviously going to mean that when I invade, we’re going to have a son, and he’s going to be the heir. So I basically already rule Rome. I just have to go and take it, you know, like there’s that sort of, that motivation that I think Attila probably had, or at least he’s, he’s been presented as having. I mean, whether that’s the actual case is anybody’s guess. Well, I

Speaker 1 49:23
think that’s what’s so interesting about thinking about this period of Rome’s history, in that it is one where a lot of the groups that are putting pressure on Rome’s borders, or putting pressure on Rome systems from within. It is about them wanting to be integrated into the Roman Empire, and a lot of the time the Romans are causing problems for themselves by not effectively doing that, by either resisting it, fighting back, or putting all these terms and conditions which are kind of unacceptable on it. And when we see them thriving more, I think is where they are. Able to come to some sort of agreement with these peoples, because, after all, a lot of the barbarians are moving into Rome and putting pressure on Rome because they themselves are having pressure put on them, you know, because they’re being driven out of their traditional lands. And so it is an interesting thing to think about when there’s so much discussion about immigration in a lot of parts of the world at this point in time, and given that there’s only going to be increasing number of people who are fleeing from war, genocide and climate change, it’s such an interesting thing for us to be considering at this moment in time. Yeah, that’s

Jenny W 50:35
a huge part of this story, because it was the migration era, right? And like, what that means is that there were Huns coming down from. People aren’t actually sure where the Huns were coming down from. It might have been the Eastern Asian steppes. It might have been elsewhere. There’s a lot of question about who the Huns were, but they were kind of crashing into these other populations of Germanic and Gothic tribes, and they were crashing into the Roman Empire, and that was starting in alaric’s time. And so you have, like, you know, refugee crisis piled upon refugee crisis in this time period anyway, which is really the engine for what is happening right now. And Alaric wanted to be integrated. Like a big part of his story was that he had been a federate leader, and he wanted the legitimate, highly placed generalship position in the Roman army proper. And there’s questions, you know, about what that means. Did he want that? Because it would have put his people in a better position. Did he want that? Because he just was really petty about the job title for some reason, like,

Dr Rad 51:30
I want the official title, god damn it,

Jenny W 51:32
right. But like the real Alaric, I messed with this history a little bit in my book. Like my Alaric is kind of more focused on the on the homeland part, but the real Alaric was really focused on part of his story was this was a story about integration and what immigrants into Rome did and didn’t have the right to do and have, and what was happening to these people. And there’s a biography that I’ve read that came out actually just as I was polishing up and finishing the final draft of book one. Unfortunately, that would have been so helpful, always, always. And it’s about, it’s called Alaric the Goth, like An Outsider’s History of Rome. It’s by Douglas Boin, and it is an excellent, excellent biography, and it really focuses on the immigrant part. And it’s just fascinating, and just sheds a lot of light on this, on this topic. Well,

Dr G 52:20
at this point in time, I reckon we should wrap up, and I think there’s lots of really interesting ideas that come up through your novel that sort of relate and raise questions about what we know about this history and that it is also a case that you’re receiving a lot of high praise, so I want to just quote one of them. So Elodie Harper, who is the author of the acclaimed ‘The Wolf Den’, has said, this is a hugely entertaining Roman world romanticy with a hilarious heroine and a smoldering hero, whose adventures in love and war are set against the backdrop of the last dangerous days of an ancient empire. So enticing, very enticing, that’s Yeah. Congratulations,

Speaker 1 53:10
Jenny. You must be so thrilled to have such an amazing endorsement of your debut novel. And we’re wondering, are there any hints about what you might be working on? Well,

Jenny W 53:22
I just want to say thank you to Elodie for that glowing praise. I am eternally grateful. I’m so glad that she loved the book. And yes, I am working on book two of this series where, yeah, which is the continuation of the story. I definitely, when I started it, thought it might be one book, but it is not. It is two books. I’m getting that draft ready. I’m actually, as we’re doing this interview, scheduled to pass in the first draft of it to my editor in two days, three, two or three days. I don’t know what day is it? It’s Friday. Scary

Dr G 53:55
times. Yeah, it’s

Jenny W 53:56
a little intimidating. That’s what I’m going to be doing all weekend. So, yeah. So I’m working on Book Two, which is as yet untitled. I have an idea for a book three, but I’m kind of sitting on it for now. Gonna see how these edits go, and you know how everything goes, whether I keep the plot point that it’s all based on. But yeah, I have an idea for one, at least. And yeah, we’ll see. We’ll see what’s next.

Speaker 1 54:21
Oh, how exciting to hear that this might be a trilogy in the making, potentially,

Jenny W 54:25
I don’t know at this point, it’s a duology.

Speaker 1 54:30
Yeah, fair enough. So just to wrap up, Jenny, we have mentioned the podcast, obviously. But can you tell our listeners where people can find you? And of course, ancient Yeah?

Jenny W 54:39
So I my podcast is ancient history. Fan girl, it can be found wherever you get podcasts. And I’m Jenny Williamson. Mainly, I’m mainly active on Instagram. My handle is Jenny freaking Williamson. I have a website, Jenny Williamson, author, and from there, you can pretty much find out everything about me that you want to

Speaker 1 54:59
know. Fan. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on and telling us all about your book and your process and your source material, your inspiration and listeners, we hope that you also run out and buy a copy of Jenny’s book. Yeah,

Jenny W 55:13
enemy of my dreams, it drops February 4. And yeah, thank you guys so much for having me

Dr G 55:19
an absolute pleasure.

Dr Rad 55:26
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, and because this is a special episode, we would like to say thank you to all of our Patreon and Kofi supporters who helped to make bonus content like this possible, and in return, they get early access to all of our extra content. We’d also like to say that if you found the people we were discussing in today’s episode particularly fascinating, and let’s face it, why wouldn’t you? You might want to check out your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire, which is the book that Dr G and I just wrote, which has entries on both Julia the elder and Galla Placidia. We’d also like to recommend Emma Southon’s excellent book, a History of Rome in 21 women, which also has some content that might interest you, particularly about Gallup Placidia and Honoria. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We are thrilled to sit down in conversation with Professor Joel P. Christensen to discuss some of the ideas explored in his forthcoming book Storylife: On Epic, Narrative, and Living Things (Yale University Press).

Special Episode – Storylife with Professor Joel P. Christensen

Joel Christensen is Professor of Classical Studies at Brandeis University. He received his BA and MA from Brandeis in Classics and English and holds a PhD in Classics from New York University. His publications include A Beginner’s Guide to Homer (2013), A Commentary on the Homeric Battle of Frogs and Mice with Erik Robinson (2018), Homer’s Thebes: Epic Rivalries and the Appropriation of Mythical Pasts with Elton T. E. Barker (2019),  and The Many-Minded Man: the Odyssey, Psychology, and the Therapy of Epic (2020). 

Professor Christensen is also famous online for his engaging work on ancient Greece and Rome through his website sententiaeantiquae.com

In this episode we delve into some of the ideas that Christensen explores in his forthcoming book Storylife: On Epic, Narrative, and Living Things (Yale University Press). With chapters exploring Homer in tandem with the COVID-19 pandemic and people’s response to it, particularly in the context of the United States.

Things to listen out for

• The power of epic poetry to have therapeutic benefits
• Biological analogies for the considering the life of narratives
• Approaching our understanding of the world and the affairs of people with generosity
• The Homeric Question(s)
• The dangers of the God-Author model when considering written texts
• On the significant differences between oral approaches to authority and written approaches to authority
• The arboreal metaphor for thinking of the Iliad and the Odyssey as objects
• Epic poetry and DNA (and some of the poetic meter!)
• The challenges of language whether its epic poetry or just going to language class
• The problem with Greek heroes and the protective nature of epic poetry
• The opportunity for ‘rehumanisation’ that comes from engaging with stories
• A call for an education revolution!

The cover for Storylife

It’s All Greek to Me!

Keen on the Ancient Greek recited by Professor Christensen in this episode?

He recites the opening line of the Iliad:

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος

which can be found online at Perseus.

And he also cites the first line of the Odyssey:

ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ

which can also be found online at Perseus.

Books (and film) mentioned

• Barbara Graziosi 2002. Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic (Cambridge University Press )
• Ruth Finnegan 1979. Oral Poetry: Its nature, significance and social context (Cambridge University Press)
• Walter J. Ong 2012. Orality and Literacy: The Technologizing of the Word (Routledge)
• Rebecca Huntley 2020. How to Talk About Climate Change in a Way That Makes a Difference (Allen & Unwin)
• Cook, E. (1998). ‘Heroism, Suffering, and Change’ in D. Boedeker (Ed.), The Iliad, the Odyssey and the Real World: Proceedings from a Seminar Sponsored by the Society for the Preservation of the Greek Heritage and Held at the Smithsonian Institution, Washington D.C., on March 6-7, 1998 (pp. 47-63). Washington D.C.: Society for the Preservation of the Greek Heritage.
• Film: 2040 by Damon Gameau, released in 2019

Music Credits

Our music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr G 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome everybody to a very special episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr G.

And I am Dr Rad.

And we are super thrilled today to be welcoming a special guest, Professor JoelChristiensen. Now, Joel Christiensen is professor of Classical Studies at Brandeis University. He received his BA and MA from Brandeis in classics and English, and holds a PhD in classics from New York University, and has many exciting publications in his back catalog, including ‘A Beginner’s guide to Homer’, ‘A Commentary on the Homeric Battle of Frogs and Mice’ with Eric Robinson, ‘Homer’s Thebes’ with Elton T. E. Barker and ‘The Many-Minded Man:The Odyssey, Psychology, and the Therapy of Epic’. Also, Professor Christensen is famous online for his engaging work on ancient Greece and Rome through his website, which I’m about to mispronounce, sententiaeantiquae.com

Yup, you stuff that up completely.

I did. Somebody correct me, please. Somebody correct me.

Sententiae, I think.

See, there you go. It’s easy. Just don’t rely on me for pronouncing things. So you could say, from this back catalog that we are incredibly starstruck and also completely out of our death, because we are Roman historians. And you will have noticed that Professor Christensen is really a Greek specialist in all of these sorts of areas that he’s focused on in his work. And we are going to be really junior learners in this process of this interview, which we’re excited about as we talk about Professor Christensen’s forthcoming book, ‘Storylife: On Epic Narrative and Living Things’, which is coming out in 2025 through Yale University Press. So thank you, Joel, so much for joining us.

Professor Joel Christensen 2:57
Hey, thank you for inviting me. I was so psyched when you guys sent that email, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Dr G 3:03
Fantastic. Woo hoo. I’m glad that the excitement is mutual, because we’re definitely starstruck. So this is, this is thrilling stuff. So to start off with, thinking about story life, in the preface, you say that this is an exploration of how we think about stories if we externalize them. And I’m wondering if you can take us a little bit about what led you to this idea to consider stories as external agents.

Speaker 1 3:31
Yeah, so I mean, what’s probably connected and animated my work, in fact, my interest in scholarship, since I was, I don’t know, middle school is thinking about how stories function in the world, why we respond to them so much, why we care about them and really like how we depend on them and what they do. And so, you know, for many years, in teaching myth, I, you know, grasp about for different metaphors and how to think about getting people to understand why makes vary, why stories are embedded in different contexts, and what similarities and differences from one context to another means. And at the same time, while I was doing this, I have been, as you note in the introduction, sort of habitually online, watching everything that’s happened in Twitter and Facebook since it started, I’m, you know, I feel like I’m not that old, but I’m old enough to remember a world before Google and before Facebook. In fact, both debuted while I was in graduate school, and you really got a sense of watching them unfold, of how much faster narratives were moving and changing, and how they could really make people act in different ways. And so part of it is, for me, I’ve always felt sort of on the outside of what we might see as American centrism and what we do in the world. To go back again to around the time Google debuted, I was in New York City for 911. I was there for the peace protest. And you know, I lost friends and, like, ruined family relationships. Because from the beginning, I didn’t understand why a terrorist attack in the US meant we should be going on an endless war and terror and, you know, invading Afghanistan, Iraq, all of those things. And so constantly, you know, I was interested in rhetoric, in politics. And then, you know, post the 2008 election and Obama, I got really interested in the way that stories shape our notion by identity and belonging to larger groups. And so that’s a very long answer for your for your question, but I’m getting, you know, I’m getting to the point, I got to the point where I, you know, everyone’s talking about intention and responsibility, like, who’s creating stories, who’s responsible for it? But one of the things that I think is really clear from watching the way narratives, you know, metastasize online and change, is I don’t think there are agents, right? We can point to specific moments where someone floats in there, gets accepted, but it’s so much more complicated than and so for me, what? But, you know, Trump’s victory in 2016 like bored me. I was like, How does this happen? How do people think like we can actually do? And then what really made me start to think of narratives as being independent of us was our collective response of us, especially to COVID, just the very notion that people were rejecting vaccination, not believing that we could understand the way the disease is working, rejecting masking and public health things, you know, it made me think, well, what if, just for sake of argument, we imagine that stories have nothing to do with our attention, right, but that they have a reason for existing on their own, and they operate by their own logic. And what if, in this logic is the very logic that animates the rest of creation, which is the need to perpetuate itself, not for good, not for evil, just for basic survival. And so that, for me, was sort of the starting proposition, what would it mean to just think about stories as independent from us, and that, in a way, can help sort of soften the blow of us understanding that something that we create and participate in willingly actually causes us harm. And so for me, this is also connected. It’s not just about COVID, of course. It’s also about climate change, it’s about so many of the narratives that we participate in that actually cause harm to us, individually and collectively. And so I think the ideas have been brewing and simmering for a very long time, but the real catalyst was just spending 18 months sitting at home watching us make bad decision after bad decision, and wondering if there’s a different way of thinking about things.

Dr G 7:45
Yeah, I think that’s really amazing. I think that puts things in a really great context as well, to set up, like the questions that we’re going to start to delve into further as we get into this interview as well, but this sense in which stories sort of sit both outside of the realm of the self, but are also constantly interacting with us as we move through space and time. And I think your analogy of, well, it’s not even an analogy, it’s just a fact of history, the way that the explosiveness of the internet over time, and so I don’t think that we’re that old, either, but we also pre date some of that stuff.

Speaker 1 8:24
Well, I mean, look for full disclosure, my age. I’m 46 right? And, you know, the first time I ever sent an email was when I was a freshman in college, yeah. And, you know, I never used the internet till I applied for college. And so I think this means, to a certain extent, that my consciousness and cognitive capacity formed before that and have a different relationship to information, but we can see that change. It’s like my parents talk about what life was like before cable TV. Like I really understand that, but I can clock the way it works. And just one thing to add to that, you know, that can another connection that that really primed all this thought is the work I did for my Odyssey book, which was really engaged in cognitive psychology and neurobiology and sort of collective notions of thinking and minds to sort of lay the basis for epic being a therapeutic experience. And I think one of our big challenges, and this again, lead back to the book, is as human beings, we are both culturally set up to think of ourselves as individuals and separate from things, and we’re biologically encouraged to consider the world in that way, but our language and our engagement with ideas, with others, is actually a collective experience. And so I think one of the reasons why I find these analogies not just useful, but absolutely necessary, is it’s so hard for us to defamiliarize ourselves, with our with the experiences that we have. Have like, we don’t think well in the aggregate, and it’s really hard to think outside of our individual subjectivity and imagine ourselves as part of a larger narrative ecosystem that shapes our identities, instead of sort of, you know, like free agents in the world making all of our own choices.

Dr G 10:15
Yeah, obviously, as of time of recording, to totally date this podcast, which I know we’re not supposed to do. But hey, watch me do it yet again. We are obviously all reeling with the news of Trump’s re election as of a few weeks ago, and definitely, as somebody who is constantly struggling with the lack of serious action on climate change, on the on the behalf of both institutions and individuals, I totally get what you’re saying in terms of, it just constantly boggles my mind that this kind of stuff is happening in the world. And I do think it has a lot to do with with narratives and the way that people interact with them. Yeah, that’s drive that, you know, helping to drive sort of action on these sorts of issues.

Speaker 1 10:55
No, I look it’s mind boggling. And you know, the the stance I always had, you know, when we elected, when we re elected, George Bush in 2004 you know, my first stance was, everybody’s stupid, right? But, but then I had to step back and say, look like, while it might be attractive to dismiss more than 50% of the country, like, we can’t assume that everyone’s just insane, right? Like, there has to be some other way to think about it, you know. And part of is about to reading people with empathy, trying to under, like, trying to understand the world in a generous way, which is really, really hard. And so that’s where it’s like, sort of, you know, to think of us as not individuals making rational decisions may seem to, you know, deprive us of agency, in a way, but it also is a fundamentally important framing for understanding human action, and I think that’s one of our real challenges in public policy and education. Is really seeing that problem there, that we are part of these larger tides in the world. And no matter how much smarter more informed we think we are like, we still have to look at the larger picture.

Dr G 12:11
So perhaps to segue from modern American politics to ancient Greece, such a jump time traveling a little bit obviously, even the average person on the street is probably aware that one of the standout figures in ancient Greek thought and storytelling is Homer. And one of the big questions that usually concerns scholars of Homer is important enough to receive capitalized letters, which is the Homeric question. Can you briefly explain to us what the Homeric question is all about?

Speaker 1 12:45
So, so that modifier, briefly, there is, is a dangerous request, but I’ll see. I’ll see what I could do. So the Homeric question, it’s not really one question, it’s multiple questions, and it has the following elements, one first one are the alien the Odyssey by the same person in scare quotes? Two, whether or not they’re by the same person, or if they are, are the alien Odyssey as we have them unitary? Are each of them whole in the way they’re meant to be, instead of sort of Malcolm text that were put together by later, by later editors? Three if these texts are unitary, or if they not, or if they’re not, what is the relationship between the texts we have and the oral tradition that we’re very certain predated the textualizations of the epic right? So, how did they move from an oral tradition of performance into a textual tradition of reading. And I think an additional question there is, how does that change the way we think about the epics, even if they came from an oral tradition, but they’re also in text? How do we analyze them? And then I think I’d add to that, how and when did it happen? And, you know it, did it happen in a single time or over time? And what’s the dirty relationship between the oral tradition and the text? So complicating features of this is that we have no certain evidence about a person called Homer. There are biographical traditions that are clearly false. They’re from all over the place. The best book on this is by Barbara Graziosi. It’s called ‘Inventing Homer’, and it really goes through the ancient evidence for the creation of Homer as a as a sort of poetic figure. You guys may like this next anecdote. I’ll try to make it simple. But my daughter came home. She is in She’s a freshman in high school, so first year in high school, she’s 14, and to hassle me, she took out her textbook, and she showed me in her history textbook, line, Homer was a blind poet who wrote The Iliad of the Odyssey, and she knew I was going to die from that. And she’s like, Well, why isn’t this right? I’m like, it. To and I tried to explain to her about composition and performance and how important it was over time. And then she said, Well, Encyclopedia Britannica says this is right. And she took out a phone and started fact checking me. And then she went to karate class and kept texting me. She texted, you know, what is Homer, according to you, and then she followed up people in my class say who was a real guy. And I just like, you’re trying to murder me, my daughter. And so I think the biographical tradition is clearly false. And in addition, there are significant features that are different between sort of oral derived literature and literary culture. And to add to all that, and make it more complicated, as a literate culture, where prejudice towards a sort of God author model for the creation of things. And I think if you read really carefully in the development of ancient Greek literature, you can see culture changing. I think Aristotle doesn’t understand oral culture. He doesn’t see the tradition as being indebted to variety and multiplicity and performance. He sees it as a written thing, because he’s a writer, and I think our number one challenge in conceptualizing a non written, fixed textual tradition for Homer is our own cultural framework that privileges authorship over genius over almost all else, and dis privileges collective contributions and creations.

Dr G 16:35
Well, you convinced me I’m going to go out and smash my bust of Homer immediately after recording this episode. Oh no, take that genius.

Professor Joel Christensen 16:45
Somebody might find it useful.

Dr G 16:49
Just fragments. Just leave fragments behind.

That should be appropriate, like that’s a good metaphor for what’s gonna happen here with the test, I shook that Aristotle was wrong about something. I mean, my god.

Speaker 1 17:02
I may be, I may be veering into iconoclastic territory by saying that, but I think, look, we have good evidence in studies in sort of oral culture, that the shift in mindset is less than a generation like even one person’s lifetime, as they move from an oral performance culture. Once they move to relying on reading and fixing things on a page, their sort of neurological relationship to creation changes. So there’s some good stuff, but like about that, but it’s something again, it’s so hard for us to think outside of it’s like thinking in another language completely, or like breathing different kind of air.

Dr G 17:41
Well, this is very much like what you were saying, though, because we are of the same generation as you, not to disclose our age too much, but yeah, as you said, like the creation of the internet in our youth, let’s say did definitely lead to some changes. And I am a teacher of teenagers, and so I definitely see the different way that they think about information and communication and all of that kind of stuff, in terms of how they interact with social media and AI and all of those sorts of tools which they’ve grown up with.

Speaker 1 18:14
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s just a small sample of how much it changes. And just imagine the difference if you’re embedded in a cultural group that’s not relying on reading or writing at all, right, and that’s used to attributing authority externally. And so that, to go to your earlier question about sort of externalizing stories, one of the most important things, I think, differences in early Greek literature is the externalizing of agency for an authority, for narrative to the muse. We now think of that as a poetic device that’s a way like it’s taught like this is just something you do, but I think it was taken very seriously prior to Plato, and even you know among in his time, like this is a way of saying this comes from somewhere else without actually being sure about where it comes to them.

Dr G 19:02
I think this has good parallels to draw upon in connection with oral culture that still exists within indigenous traditions. So definitely in Australia, there is a sort of a reclamation of a lot of indigenous oral tradition, and the way that storytelling is embedded in a really layered way, and it’s about relationships between people. But it’s also the case that it’s very explicitly made clear that if you are being told a story by an elder, you’re only being told the first version of that story. There’s going to be deeper layers as you get further embedded into the culture and you demonstrate your responsibility and your obligations and things like that. So there’s a sense in which the complexity of something like a Homeric text in its oral form is really beyond our capacity to be able to comprehend, because we’ve only got this written version that remains. That oral tradition has not continued, because it would have evolved and changed through the retelling every single time.

Speaker 1 20:01
Yeah. And, I mean, I think this is one of the things that we miss the most in our tradition, about Homer as well, in that we’re taught to read ancient literature as if it’s modern literature, as if we just sit there reading it literally. And there’s been this sort of, this movement for about 300 years in reading ancient literature that discounts allegory and, you know, symbolism and indirect meaning. You know, as early we have evidence of 600 BCE Pythagorean traditions of, you know, of reading Homer’s allegory, of seeing everything in the Odyssey about being the reincarnation of souls. It’s not actually about the story of Odysseus. Instead, it’s a secret included message. And so I think you know that goes exactly with what you were saying about so traditional literature and community and layers of interpretation and passing down the authority of the past, it’s just something we’re so separate from, because we’re raised with sort of the belief in scriptural traditions where the word is on the page and we interpret it, and we have this idea of universal, timeless meaning, which seems to be inflexible in a way.

Dr G 21:09
So challenging, but also now I’m feeling a little bit riled up. The English teacher side of me is like, but no, it’s always about the interpretation every valid and different.

Professor Joel Christensen 21:19
But my guess is you would be a better English teacher, because there are different models, right? There’s the model where there’s one interpretation and the authority gives it to you, and then there’s the other one, where there are where it’s the ambiguity and multiplicity of interpretations that makes literature special. And so I think there’s a real tension there in the Western tradition of approaching literature, right? It goes back to who has the authority to interpret? Is it supply side poetics, where it’s all about whatever the author meant, or is it about something more, much more complicated, about that dance between tradition and the individual and audiences and sort of narratives?

Yeah, for sure, there’s so much to think about with this sort of thing. So yeah, I feel like I’m just like, I’m just letting my brain absorb it and and take it in um. But taking this idea a little bit further with the Homeric tradition, and starting to think about the external elements of it as well. You discuss the idea of thinking about Homer’s writing home, is writing get out my flesh rabbits through both an oral metaphor and an arboreal metaphor. So a metaphor related to trees. And I don’t know if you’re open to it, but I’m wondering if you’d be willing to recreate this experience of the arboreal metaphor for us.Okay, sure. So in the introduction, the first thing I talk about is, instead of thinking about the Iliad of the Odyssey as a complex symphony played in different rooms by musicians who can’t hear each other, the next one I think, I ask people to think about is the object of the elite. The Odyssey is something fixed like a tree in the landscape. So I have a section where I say, you know, I’ll quote myself, and I’ll go through it right. If you can get someone to read the next few paragraphs aloud, close your eyes and listen. And here we go. Take a minute and imagine a tree in a manicured park, a private garden. Make it a really lovely tree, one you would notice and remember, if you lingered on a bit, one that has been well situated in its environment. Think about the trees in perfect symmetry, the way it occupies its space. Has it grown? It’s in odd angles to meet the sun’s changing rays over the seasons or in response to persistent winds. How deeply is it rooted? Now think about this. Someone planted the tree, others tended to it and trimmed it. More people spent generations selecting this domesticated tree from its ancestral stock. Think about the uncountable hands that made this tree possible. The saplings transplanted, the varieties combined over time. What were their lives like? What stories did they tell? What were trees to them, think about the tree’s beauty, its esthetics. What makes us set this tree apart from others? What is essential about it? Our appreciation is based on other trees we might not remember, as well as an entire grammar of human beings in the environment, like any native language, you learned its basic syntax without trying. You have a sense of the way trees should be. You probably judge a tree differently from a shrub for historical esthetic reasons. You have expectations of what trees should do, how they should look and how they relate to the world around them. For the most part, you’re not cognizant of these assumptions, but you almost certainly have different notions about a shrub or a bush. Now, if you’ve been listening, open your eyes, but keep the tree in your mind. If someone asks Who is responsible for the tree, what do you say? Is that the person who designed the park? Is it the gardener is the first person who imagined a tree in the garden, any single answer ignores those countless hands, minds and environments that contribute to the treeness of the tree. I can keep going, and there’s more, but enough of it.

Dr G 25:07
No I think that’s good, that that starts to open up the pathways they’re thinking about the complexities of anything. So I think one of the challenges that students often come with is when they’re sold an idea that, like, Homer, is a guy, you know, he’s a blind poet. He did these things is that it gives it that singular point of generation. It’s like this is emerged from a singular moment of genius from one person. And perhaps it was a response to their world. But it somehow all comes down to them, and anything that we can take away from that text, we also then have to acknowledge the genius of the creator, and by stepping back and trying to place the poetry and the ideas that come with that poetry in the broader landscape. And I think this is part of the power of this metaphor, is that it allows us to see the whole context, or a window into that whole context. And it’s like we’re always looking at so much more than just some phrasing, just a moment of singular genius. I mean, Western culture does have this sort of propensity for the for the white male genius aspect, model of creation, but it’s so much more than that, and so I think that it shows a real potential for how we can start to think about literature completely differently. So thank you,

Speaker 1 26:33
Yeah, and well, and I think what I found useful or attractive about is that there are two angles, and it really gets into what I’ll just call, perhaps unfairly ecological thinking, right? Like we all, anybody who’s taking basic science understands how a tree is part of an ecosystem, what we lose track of, though, is that most of our ecosystems are human shaped. At this point, there are few that don’t have some sort of influence from us, that have kept a different equilibrium that wouldn’t be natural, whatever that means, because we’re still natural in a way, right? Or, you know, have had some other influence on what we’re seeing. So there’s that ecosystem that’s really critical, because every every piece of the tree is shaped by, you know, inheritance that it has from its own tree genes, right? And then the experience of the world, how the world has shaped it the secondary ecosystem that comes from our judgment, right, and our judgment is similarly constituted in an ecosystem of ideas, of our own history, of other people’s influence of esthetic judgments, of our interaction of our senses in the world that shape those esthetic judgments, but also shaped by them. I mean, all those things are really complicated, and then we live in a specific slice of time and have a real hard ability seeing duration of time and how things change. And so we pick a point, and we see things in one way or another, and we it’s very hard for us to think about these overlapping ecologies of sort of the nature and ecologies of thought.

Dr G 28:06
Indeed, yes, and I really, I liked, I liked that tree metaphor. That was actually the part that really jumped out at me when I was reading the introduction. Now I have to ask you a question about my most feared subject, which is ancient languages.

Professor Joel Christensen 28:25
I’ll try not to be too scary.

Dr G 28:28
Well, I am someone who struggles with language in any form, modern, ancient doesn’t matter. Latin, Greek, either way, I don’t understand it, so Homeric Greek is a big challenge. But even to people who are better at languages than I am. This is a big challenge. So in the first chapter, you explore parallels between Homeric language and DNA. What are some of the key features of Homeric meter and language, and how do you think DNA helps us to better appreciate the ethics?

Speaker 1 28:58
All right, so the first thing I’m going to say that’s probably going to upset you more, or maybe it won’t, is that I actually think that all language is going to be governed by the principles that I’ll talk about, but that it’s easier for us to think about Homeric language in this way, because we think of it in some way as artificial, even though that’s completely false. So I’ll talk about Homeric Greek a little bit, but, you know, interrupt me at any point, because I don’t want to send people screaming after they listen to this bit, right? So look, we know that all languages are governed by rules, right? And the rules are essentially arbitrary. They exist within a system of contrast, and we have learned them at a young age, right? And so there’s no sort of universal syntax or grammar or universal semantics or meaning. Those two axes are always engaging in the way that things unfold in time, right? So any languages, as I see it, has building blocks that are akin to. DNA. And the building blocks are the morphologies, the actual sounds, the grammar, how these morphologies fit together to unveil meaning right in an ordered way, following rules we know. And then there’s the semantic sphere, which is, well, what do these words mean in contact with each other? And so the very basic idea that I have is that, you know, DNA that’s not activated in an environment, that’s not living, is just a string of proteins, but when you put it in an environment in contact with other things, then various traits are triggered. They are, you know, they are activated and they reveal themselves to the world. So a big, you know, big thing people talk about in genetics for a while is epigenetics, right? The way that certain features of DNA or of a creature will be activated by its environment, right? And so, you know, a hand or foot doesn’t make any sense unless it’s articulated with the rest of the body. It doesn’t make sense in space to have four limbs, right? It’s really based on engagement with the environment. So in a very simplistic way, language functions the same way. Now Homeric Greek, I think, lends itself to this analysis a little better because of the way it developed, it has a limit on it that other languages don’t, and that limit is meter, right? So one of the things that people used to think about Homeric language is that it was composed the way Virgil composed the Aeneid or Shakespeare composed some of his poetry, which is that you had to, like, take your language and put it into meter, right? But that’s not actually what happened with ancient with a Homeric Greek. Homeric Greek developed over time with the metrical shapes as part of its repertoire. So just as our language is bounded by tense forms, whether it’s ed on the end for past tense or your ablouding with grew and grow. Ancient Greek had rhythmic features that drew from different dialects. And so that’s another reason why I find the DNA for attractive is because we can look at strands of DNA and see how one organism is actually comprised of many different historical organisms like DNA put together to make a entity that functions in a particular environment with particular constraints. So Homeric language has drawn from several different dialects with different forms for any given word that make it possible to fill the six foot line, and now I’m going to make it really concrete for me. All right, so the first line of the Iliad is μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος. First line of the Odyssey: ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ. The basic rule there is that the final two feet end in a shave and a haircut, right bump ba-da bump, bump, right, a dactyl and a spondee. Everything before that can be two longs, like may, like, sorry, long and two shorts, μῆνιν ἄει, it can be two longs. And the main rule is that ending. Now, if you follow the history of Greek poetry over time, as you move towards writing, the rules become much more rigid. If you you know, if you were turned off by Greek poetry or by prosody, it’s probably because someone made you learn a bunch of laws or rules. But the fact is, it’s much simpler. If you think of it as music, if you imagine, you know, four bars, four bars of four, four time, and your options are like a quarter notes and eighth notes, and I can mix them together, right? If you’re listening to music that’s in four, four time. You’re not sitting there thinking that’s a quarter note, that’s an eighth note, right? You’re listening to it, and you tolerate creativity. People shove a bunch of syllables and like one line or they go, the meaning goes over one line or another. Like, music has that variety that we don’t often attribute to prose. Now, to go back to Homeric week, part of what’s really amazing about it is that it’s not just single words put together. Most of the time, we’re looking at phrases that can be repeated. And so the line I mentioned, μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος, really has three parts to it, and you can split most Homeric lines into two or three parts, and most lines of the Iliad and the Odyssey, 16,000 of the Iliad or so, 12, 13,000 of the Odyssey. Majority of them don’t roll over into the next line. Each line is a single unit of meaning, which is first thing that floored me when I read Homeric Greek when I was I must have been 21 the first time I read it in Greek, because it was so different from, again, Milton or Shakespeare or Virgil, where you could definitely see the joins where we’re trying to fit our ideas in this. And so this means that somebody who was trained to perform Homeric Greek could speak, or at least converse the way I am right now, in meter, right? It wouldn’t be the same cadence or flow, because the esthetics would be different. But the whole system was conducive to composing in performance. And so the actual performance of Homeric poetry, Hesiodic poetry, anything in the same language, was a combination between sort of plans that happened ahead of time and the actual performance itself, which could change. And a lot of this comes from work that people don’t know about it, Millman Perry, Albert Lord, studying living epic and what used to be Yugoslavia, they really found that there were traditions where things like this were still happening, where it was absolutely possible for someone to compose in the spot a very complicated narrative. And so to go back to the Homeric question, before I wrap up on the language, all of this is connected to whether or not people thought it was possible to develop a super long narrative without writing as a planning and it comes down to that sort of last moment of whether or not we credit the amazingness of the Odyssey to this really fluid multicultural tradition, or we credit it to a final composer who inherited this tradition and put it all down. But back to the language itself. It is so hard to explain, to convince someone of how the Homeric language works if they don’t actually learn Greek. So if you’re not fully persuaded, you know, maybe come, learn Greek with me or learn it on your own. But I mean, it is. It’s qualitatively and quantitatively different from any language I’ve studied. And you can really feel it when you get into it if you move from a literate author, even a Greek one, like Apollonius Rhodes from several centuries later. And it’s even more severe if you jump to say Virgil, Lucan or Ovid.

Dr G 37:22
I know. Look, I think we should convince them by forcing them to sit through nine hours of, you know, Irish bard performance, or, you know,

Speaker 1 37:31
Right, right? And there are, I mean, that’s the thing. I mean, there are so many different traditions around the world that support it. But the challenging thing is that they’re not all the same, right? Just that. So I think one of the mistakes early studies in oral poetry made is making the assertion that they were monolithic in nature, culturally and esthetic, right? But we know that written forms of poetry, say a Shakespearean sonnet or a haiku, follow, follow very different cultural rules and adhere to very different expectations. So why would oral poetry be any different, right? So if you look at, you know, Sub-Saharan African epic traditions, Arabic epic traditions, Yugoslavian, Indian you know the oral traditions of the of the Maori, or, you know, indigenous people in Australia, there are very different rules, right? But they do show some commonalities and difference from literary cultures. I think there, you know, if people looking for reading recommendations or classic texts on this is Ruth Finnegan’s, Oral Poetry’ really shows the variety of things available in oral poetic traditions. And then Walter Ong’s ‘Orality and Literacy’ really focuses on difference in esthetics between oral cultures and literary cultures, and they read really well together.

Dr G 38:51
I think this is amazing, because this is opening up some pathways that I’ve definitely thought about before within literary English teaching, but and have understood sort of tacitly, because people who do study Homeric literature, if we and the flesh rabbits again, I think definitely wax lyrical in ways that other people who study other types of of poetry do not, and I’ve never really been able to put my finger on why, because I’ve always been a Roman person, and I’m like mad Latin, you know, it’s a bit like a mathematical part.

Speaker 1 39:36
I became a classics major because I loved Catullus.

Dr G 39:40
Ah, well, that’s a good place to start.

Professor Joel Christensen 39:43
Yeah, I read Catullus and Horace, I think, when I was 16 in high school, and I hated Horace, I’ll be honest there, but Catullus, like I did. I was floored, right? I was like, This is amazing. I want to understand more about it. And I took Greek just because you had to, yeah, you know. And, you know, I’d stumbled through. It, I was okay at it. I don’t think anybody would say I was an exceptional Greek student, but I remember from the first moment reading the Iliad in the original that I was like, this is different, yeah. And at that time, I said, I want to spend a little time figuring out how and a little time turned into a senior thesis. A senior thesis turned into a dissertation. And now I’m over 25 years into it, and I’m still figuring out how Homer’s different.

Dr G 40:26
That’s amazing.

Too late to turn back now.

Yeah, yeah, you gotta keep going

Professor Joel Christensen 40:33
Yeah, it is

Dr G 40:35
Focus now, focus now, You’ve got to be getting close

Professor Joel Christensen 40:40
I may have another 25 years.

Dr G 40:44
And I also think that’s one of the values, and the part of the great richness of studying the ancient world is actually it offers so much potential for rethinking and recalibrating your thoughts.

Professor Joel Christensen 40:55
It does, well I think, you know, yeah, in the spirit of the work I do, though, is sort of focusing on the opportunities rather than what’s been closed off. When I was in graduate school, I told my advisor, David Cider, who won’t listen to this, but if he did, he won’t mind me sharing that I wanted to do homework. And he said, why the bibliography is so long? He’s like, you can’t say anything new. And I’ve always been someone who does what people tell me not to do. I just got that problem. But I think, you know, I think there’s the challenge of it, but there’s also, you know, the depth of what people have said already is impressive, and you can learn from it. And that, you know, it was never boring conversation.

Dr G 41:38
Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And I think what you said about language, though, is so true. Because I think one of the reasons why I actually struggle so much with other languages is that I struggle to see the different ways that people put together their sentence structures. I can learn the meaning of words and grammar and that sort of thing, but then put me in front of a passage which I have no idea what it’s about. And I’m like, Oh my God. It’s like they’re speaking like Yoda, and it makes no sense at all.

Speaker 1 42:07
But actually I think, I mean, I’ve been teaching languages since I was in college in Latin and Greek, and I actually think that some people just have are cognitively blocked and to move from word order dominant languages to inflected languages, just, I think there’s a percentage of the population where it’s just a huge challenge, right? It’s like being colorblind. And I don’t I don’t know of any studies that prove this, but I can tell you that I’ve had so many students who are smart people, but when it comes down to it, they will never understand an indirect statement in Latin and Greek. It just doesn’t come naturally, and it hurts. And I can’t explain that in any other way, except the brains are just not set up.

Dr G 42:48
No, look, I’m really glad that we have this on recording. So everyone out there, including my old Latin teachers, Professor Joel Christensen, has just said that I am a smart person, but cognitively blocked and it is impossible for me to understand.

Speaker 1 43:01
I didn’t say impossible. I just said harder. Like my wife. I met my wife when I was an undergraduate, but like in our like in our third week, and when I met her, she was studying Spanish, French, Arabic and Latin, like she was involved in those four classes. I said, What are you doing? She’s like, I don’t know. I like languages, but I remember her coming up and like, it was Latin indirect statements, and no matter how many times we went through it, she just couldn’t get it. Now she can speak any language better than I can. She’s a pediatric dentist. Now she’s gone to Ivy League schools. I haven’t, right, but there’s just that one thing, like, her brain’s just like, No, I hate it. I will not accept it.

Dr G 43:43
Under no circumstances

Dr Rad 43:43
Exactly what I think about Latin.

Dr G 43:48
Oh, look, I don’t want to speak too much about my facility with or with, not with languages. No, I keep trying. I was okay at Latin when I was able to study it four hours a day. That was, that was the time I got good at it.

Yeah and look, I think, as well, in Australia, in the in the era that we grew up, English was taught in a very strange way in that it wasn’t explicit. And then on top of that, back in, back in Australia in the 1980s your engagement with other languages in public schooling systems was generally fairly limited. So I think it’s also to do with, yeah, potentially, the culture you grow up in, and how it encourages you to perhaps engage with other languages.

Speaker 1 44:32
No doubt, yeah, like, I mean, I spent, you know, the few two years ago, we were in Denmark, and I think we, you know, told we’re in Scandinavia maybe a week and a half. And, you know, I had a graduate student study. I had to pass French exams, German exams. I don’t know any of it well, but just being in an environment where everybody’s speaking different languages all the time changes the way your brain works, right, like when you’re in and. Monoglot culture, like the US, for many of us, because we are really, really segregated, or or Australia, like, your brain’s just not primed for it. And it’s like, if you spend your life doing very little physical activity, and then suddenly you have to do a 5k like, it’s going to be the worst pain you’ve ever felt, right, but if you spend all your time really active, like, it’s not that bad. And so I just think it’s about training and and, you know, like, you can do everything you want in primary school and public school, but if you’re not embarrassed in languages and exposed to them, like more than 45 minutes, three days a week, like you’re not going to learn anything, like you’re always going to be blocked.

Dr G 45:40
Yeah. Well, okay, okay, okay, focusing in, focusing in, because

enough about my trauma.

I’m not disinterested in your trauma, Dr Rad.

No no, I have spoken about it many times.

I’m trying to learn Italian. My husband’s Italian, and that that is my new quest in life, and I’ve tried to learn so many times, and this is the first time where I feel like I’m actually getting it, because I’m no longer a beginner student, but I’m no yet, nowhere near yet, competent. But I have moments where I’m like, Oh, I think, I think I have it and and so, like, those little breakthroughs are really important, but it’s, it’s a struggle, but to to bring everything to a bit of a close, because we’re coming up on on our hour together, so we’re surrounded by stories. I think this is this has become really clear through what we’ve talked about and thinking about that context of politics, and the way that with the advent of the Internet, in particularly the the way that narratives shift and change so quickly. So there’s the stories that we’re told however we receive them. There’s the ones that we read so we go out and and we we either read them or we receive them. And then there’s the stories that we actually tell. So there’s the orality. So we might hear stories, we might read them. We might be telling stories as well. There’s this whole nexus. Stories create a capacity, I think, to glimpse lives and experiences that we will never have, the capacity to confront for ourselves. So there’s so much opportunity when it comes to stories, and particularly when we’re thinking about the Homeric tradition as well, and the things that extend out of that, the capacity to come in contact with generations of people so far removed from our own experience as well. If there’s one last thing that you’d like to leave us with in terms of thinking about stories, what sort of idea or question Would you like to leave us to contemplate?

Speaker 1 47:36
Oh, well, um, one idea I’m going to go over time.

Dr G 47:43
Also, you don’t need to limit yourself. If there’s more than one, that’s okay.

Speaker 1 47:46
No, no. I mean, so I think the main so, the thing you just said about story, giving us the capacity to experience 1000 lives is one of the most important things to acknowledge about narrative, right? And so I think that one of the ways that people often talk about language and narrative is to think of it as a technology, right? If we imagine that narrative and stories are akin to our ability to use fire or, you know, to cook food and to things like that, then we can see it as something we that we use that facilitates culture, etc. But I think another way to think about it, and this is the one I’ll go back to, is the notion that stories actually do keep on living on their own. And so the reason I really focus on the biological narrative in the book is to give us the understanding that stories combine and recombine with other features in the world, and they act on their own, so in a different environment, let’s say a heroic narrative is is successful and useful for getting people to stand up and defend their communities. On the other hand, that very same narrative can cause people to have expectations of their communities that are unfair and damaging, right? And so, you know, maybe I’ll answer your question by getting concrete and going to the Iliad and then jumping outside of the Iliad, if I can, right? So, too often people see the Iliad as a simple narrative where it’s about Achilles as a hero, and they’re not wrong, he’s a hero, but in the sense that Erwin Cook describes heroes in an article about Herakles and Odysseus, which is that heroes cause suffering and they suffer. So the biggest thing to understand about the Iliad and the Odyssey is that both of our primary heroes are mentioned for being serial killers, like from the beginning, Achilles is said to send myriad Achaeans to their doom, not Trojans, Achaeans. And from the beginning, we hear about Odysseus, that he tried really, really hard to save his men, but he failed. And then we’re asked. To consider how human beings make their own fate harder or worse than it has to be because of their own recklessness. And if you read the Odyssey carefully, it’s constantly pointing its finger, finger at Odysseus, right? So the ill in the Odyssey are not praise narratives. That’s the biggest reason people or biggest way people misunderstand them instead their narratives about mismatched expectations and about how dangerous elevating individuals above the collective can be, right? And that’s where I’ll go back to Achilles and try to say something positive, right? Because what I think the Iliad is offering is the very same thing that the Pfizer vaccine I just got last week is offering me vis-a-vis COVID, and that’s project protection. Because if you read the Iliad carefully, it lets you know that a heroic narrative is damaging. It lets you know that because Achilles expected to be honored by his community for being so awesome, and then wasn’t, and through a fit, his best friend or lover died. Patroclus dies because of Achilles, and that’s the hardest thing for the Iliad to convey, because people want to point fingers elsewhere. They want to talk about his rage, about how he is dishonored. No Achilles made a choice, and it was the wrong one, but the Iliad doesn’t end with that. Instead, if you carefully read the Iliad, and I’m not going to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, I hope it has Achilles many moments, this moment, moment in Book 19, where he laments for Patroclus and the other people watch him lament and feel pity, and they lament for themselves as well. This is Book 19, but if you read the language closely, it’s echoed at that magnificent moment in Book 24 when Priam comes to Achilles and he says to Achilles, remember your father and you know, and then they weep together, like they see in each other the suffering and the loss that they feel in themselves and the languages they pity each other, and they felt something about it. I think the notion the lesson of the Iliad is something that modern science has confirmed, and that’s the stories can actually make you feel the very same things, cognitively and neurobiology, biologically, that real life can make you feel they can change you. And it’s an avenue to be re humanized, right? And so what the Iliad offers, I think, and the Odyssey, too, if you listen to it carefully, is the understanding that narratives can send you in completely the wrong direction. They can make you instrumentalize other people. They can make you misunderstand people. They help you dehumanize other people in order to slaughter them and and continue with war. But narrative also has that potential when you understand somebody else’s story to make them real to you, and for you to see yourself in them and to maybe change. And so that’s a powerful moment. And the one person who acts like in The Iliad is actually zoops. He sees Achilles and he pities, and he changes the way he does things, because he has that feeling. And I think that the Iliad is that we as audience members are supposed to go through that process. And so like when I close the book, I talk about different stories. I talk about Kleomedes, this, you know, boxer who kills a bunch of young kids because he’s upset that he lost. And I talk about heroic narratives and the damage they do. But I don’t end by saying we’re screwed. Let’s just give up, right? Instead, like we actually need to get away from, you know, the very simplistic and superficial approaches to narrative that we have. We need to understand that it’s going to keep doing whatever it wants to do, but we can actually live alongside it, right? Like we can educate people. The thing I always tell students and my colleagues now increasingly, is that we’re born, we’re not giving a manual to the human mind and body, right? One doesn’t exist. And to be frank, if we were given a manual, I wouldn’t read it, because I never read the manuals anyway, right? But I think a fundamental function of education has to be especially in universities, where we say we’re preparing people to be citizens of the world, right? A fundamental part of education has to be understanding how narrative binds us and breaks us, how it allows us to work together as a group, but it also constrains our view of the future and what we think is possible, and how understanding narrative is actually prior to political activity, because political activity is presupposed on us, actually understanding each other. And so I think, like, you know, again, a long answer to your question. It wasn’t a simple question, to be fair, but I think at the end, the one thing to take away is that you. Oh, wait, I’m going to get negative. Now almost all of our educational systems are moving in the wrong direction, right? I mean, we don’t acknowledge that science is a narrative, right? That a whole notion of like causality is narrative. That what we need to train people from a young age to understand is, you know, differences between propaganda and narrative, identity and belonging, all of these things that make our life together possible. We take it for granted, to our own detriment, and then people who are good at manipulating it intentionally or not, I don’t think, for example, major politician, politician just elected the US President, again, actually thinking about what he’s doing instead, he’s leaning into a system that favors a certain type of madness. And so we need to have anti madness out there. We need to inoculate people against the disruptions of narrative and actually give them a control, a choice in their lives, both individually and together. And I know to say, Oh, this is all what’s going on the Iliad sounds a little crazy, right? But again, I think that the Iliad and the Odyssey emerge during periods of increasing political complexity, in a period when Greek city states were moving from little households and fiefdoms into larger entities that were experimenting with oligarchy and tyranny, aristocracy and democracy, and that the questions of language and how we lived together under the weight of the past were central to what they were doing together, and it’s no different for us today.

Dr G 56:36
Oh, this is a powerful conclusion. Thank you so much. I think there is ways in which the dismissal of the power of narrative across education broadly has been to its detriment. I definitely agree with you on this, because so much of the role of humanity subjects, not just classics, is to try and give students the potential critical tools to be able to see narratives for what they are, and to pull out the pieces of information that that don’t marry up quite well, to like expectation, To see the things that are potentially endangering society.

Speaker 1 57:23
And what you just said, I mean, you know, but the way we’ve been forced to sell the humanities right, is with these two insidious words, critical thinking, right? And we say it because, oh, this will make you a better stock broker. This will make you a better surgeon. Critical thinking will make you a better I don’t know baker, whatever it is, but what we need to double down on is that one of the original meetings of the liberal arts was the, you know, the studies worthy of a free person, but another one or the skills and studies that make you a free person. And I think no again, to put my conspiracy hat back on, I think there’s an intentional reason why corporations, governments don’t want to lean into that aspect of it, because, as you said, they’re the very skills the humanities social sciences, are the very skills that force us to question the basis of our social structures, of our inequalities, of our histories. And you know, there’s a there’s a reason why people might be disinclined to encourage that.

Dr G 58:28
Oh no, let’s not create a disruptive citizenry that is expecting more, that’s unproductive for us all. But don’t get me started on productivity before I get angry.

Speaker 1 58:41
I mean, at times I find myself like, sort of even railing against the academic humanities, because we are, you know, you teach English, you know how much of it is like, what’s this genre? What’s this form? What’s the main character, right? When, when the humanities, if they’re useful, are the studies that help us be human. It’s a study of what that means and what’s uniquely so. And too much of it is just now the sort of rope stuff. We won’t want to be dangerous. We don’t want to unsettle people’s notions of reality. But at the end of it, if we don’t do so, what are we looking at, right? I mean, we’re going to break that three degrees celsius mark, right? Pretty soon, right? And we have people are saying, oh, we should go to Mars. We should invest all this money and stuff. Like, human beings cannot gestate in non, non-Earth gravity, like it’s a medical fact, like, we cannot survive on Mars. It’s insanity to even think so.

Dr G 59:38
I mean, I do agree with you, but I’m also not against billionaires taking themselves out of this context and leaving us to then sort it out, because they’re not helping

Speaker 1 59:47
But taking all that wealth that could feed people with them. Yeah, it’s problem. I keep wanting to post online, but I’m afraid I’ll get fired someday, and all I want to write is: Where are the good billionaires? Is a trick question.

Dr G 1:00:04
yeah for sure

Speaker 1 1:00:06
because it’s where does wealth come from?

Dr G 1:00:11
As someone who has been increasingly concerned about the problems with communication into over climate change, I remember reading this really amazing book which really changed the way that I tried to talk to people about this a number of years ago, which was literally called ‘How to Talk About Climate Change’ and and also thinking about the work of there’s actually a really amazing Australian filmmaker whose name I’ve totally forgotten. I think it’s, is it, Damon Gameau, but yeah, he his whole thing about, he made this film called ‘2040’, and his whole thing was that part of the problem with the environmental movement is that it has not clearly communicated to people a better story you know about, you know, like, Why wouldn’t you want to live in a cleaner, healthier environment that’s, you know, that’s much better for you, like, Why? Why wouldn’t you want that? And so, you know, you have to tell people the story that shows them, you know, what is possible and what this is all about, rather than just being it all about, you know, the the scientific facts, or this really complicated, you know, scientific language, and it has to be a story,

Speaker 1 1:01:22
And we fail. I mean, we fail all the time. I mean another example that’s not from climate change, but you know, from from the recent elections, so many people are upset in the US about inflation. Yeah, right. And they say, but I didn’t, at once see the Democratic Party make the very true and clear argument that inflation went up because we had to lower our money policies to avoid a generation defining Depression during COVID Right? We rate, lowered the money down like that, increased the flow of money. The interest rates gave lots of people flush with cash, which created inflation that then we had to exert deflationary pressure on, which takes time, right? It was actually handled really well from a macroeconomic, economic perspective. But we didn’t make the argument like we didn’t tell the story that this is about COVID, and I just, I don’t know why like it, just it flabbergasted me that we didn’t like directly address a very clear cause and effect situation.

Dr G 1:02:23
Oh, look, I actually been talking. I actually teach about America in the 1920s and 1930s to my senior students, and I see so many parallels between that time period and now. And I constantly have to say to them about the Great Depression and the Wall Street crash. Correlation is not causation, and you can see that very much in American politics right now. People sometimes think that just because something’s happening at around the same time, that therefore there is a direct cause and effect link, and it’s just not the case.

Speaker 1 1:02:54
Yeah, yeah, no. And so, I mean all the way around, though, like from from simple things, like one election to, like massive things like the environment and what we’re doing to the world, it is so hard to tell clear and simple narratives about complex things. So those of us who like study it and are experts are at some level, like, paralyzed by our knowledge and incapable of translating it to a way that people who haven’t learned it can accept, just like me, with like, Homeric language,

Dr G 1:03:24
Yeah, no. Look, I think it’s one of those things where, on the positive side, we do actually have a course here in New South Wales for high school students called extension history. And it is actually all about getting into these really higher order ideas about the way that history is constructed and potentially misrepresented, used and abused as a narrative. And it’s one, it’s one of those subjects that when people get into it, they actually, they actually, really like it, because it is moving away from exactly what you said. What was wrong with education? It’s not about rote learning. It’s not about, you know, just learning facts. It is about the students developing their own voice, their own capacity to tell stories, and also their own capacity to read stories. I’m going to use that word in a critical manner, but I mean in the sense of, you know, engaging with the way that things have been pieced together and then are potentially, yeah, used and abused in the world. So yeah, there are some things out there which are little glimmers of hope education.

Well, thank you so much, Joel for joining us. It has been a really interesting hour to delve into some of the ideas that are coming up in your forthcoming book ‘Storylife’. So very excited to see it out in the world. And, yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 1:04:49
Well, thank you. And you know, I’m always happy to talk to you again, and I really, I just want to say I appreciate the work that you all do in you know. Popularizing and bringing all these ideas. I think that the you know, the podcast that you do reach, you know, an order of magnitude more people than any article I write ever will. So you’re doing important work, and I appreciate it.

Dr G 1:05:13
Oh, thank you.

Dr Rad 1:05:14
Thank you.

Dr G 1:05:45
Music. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notesover at partialhistorians.com . We offer a huge thank you to you, if you’re one of our illustrious Patreon supporters. If you enjoy the show, we’d love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We’re on Ko-fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon, of course, our latest book, ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don’t want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome’s glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with ‘Your Cheeky Guide To the Roman Empire’.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In 398, the Romans received some worrying signs from the gods, and now we return with a special message for them: From Delphi, With Love.

Episode 157 – From Delphi, With Love

In 397 BCE, the Romans were waging war on all fronts. On top of their ongoing siege at Veii, they were contesting their hold on Anxur with the Volscians, and their colony at Labici against the Aequians. Never ones to shy away from drama, the Romans were also dealing with internal division between the patricians and the plebeians. PHEW! Sounds exhausting.

Rude Raiders

The Tarquinii, from another part of Etruria, also noticed that the Romans had a lot on their plate. Now was their moment to attack and score some booty! The Romans were highly offended that anyone could even THINK of attacking them when they were already so busy. It was time for an etiquette lesson…

The Romans wiped the floor with these rude raiders, but the rest of their campaigns were in a stalemate. They weren’t losing, but they weren’t winning either. Clearly they needed some divine help, direct from Delphi.

The Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

The ambassadors that had been seen to the Delphic Oracle after the sudden rise in the levels of the Alban Lake in 398 returned at this moment. They confirmed what the kidnapped soothsayer from Veii had told them in 398. Lower the levels of the lake and you will have your victory at Veii. Suddenly their captive seemed much more valuable.

Getting Square

Aside from their lack of military victories and the higher levels of water in the Alban Lake, the Romans discovered another sign that all was not right. When the magistrates for 397 had been proclaimed, something had gone wrong. Magistrates were proclaimed during the annual Latin festival for Jupiter Latiaris. If a mistake was made during the sacrifice or proclamation, there was only one thing to do. Get rid of this lot of magistrates and start all over.

An interregnum ensued whilst the Romans sorted out their magistrate woes. Very unusually, the Romans set their sights on someone who was not even campaigning, Publius Licinius Calvus. Calvus had been the first confirmed plebeian to become military tribune with consular power and was known to be very moderate. But how would the Romans pull off his election? Tune in to find out more!

Things to Look Out For:

• Aeneas’ dad, Latinus  
• The Etruscans giving Veii the cold shoulder, AGAIN!
• Tips on the proper way to sacrifice a bull
• Volcanic activity
• Roman-style Christmas hampers
• Highlights of happenings in the wider Mediterranean world

Our Players for 397 BCE

Military Tribune with Consular Power

• L. Iulius L. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401
• L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 405, 398, 395, 394, 391
• L. Sergius M. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)
• A. Postumius – f. – n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat)
• P. Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat) Cos. 393? Mil. Tr. c.p. 390
• A. Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 405, 402

Legates; Ambassadors

• (Cn. Cornelius) Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 404, 401
• (P.) Licinius (Calvus Esquilinus) Mil. Tr. c.p. 400, 396
• (L.) Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398

OR

• (C.) Valerius Potitus (Volusus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c.p. 415, 404
• (K.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 410, 404, 401, 395, 309?

OR

• (Num.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, 5.16-18.
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 14.85.1; Fasti Capitolini.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War (University of California Press) 
• Kraus, C. S. 2020. ‘Urban Disasters and Other Romes: The Case of Veii’ in Closs, V. M., Keitel, E. eds. Urban Disasters and the Roman Imagination (De Gruyter), 17-31.
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 
• Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
• Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.
• Young, J. 1875. ‘The Alban Lake’ The Athenaeum no. 2505, pp 575-576.

Sound Credits

Our music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:00
Hi listeners. Before we get into today’s episode, Dr G and I would just like to mention that we will once again be presenting at the podcast event of the year, Intelligence Speech in 2025 this event will be taking place on February 8, starting at 9am Eastern Standard Time. The tickets are $30 and are available at intelligentspeechonline.com this year’s topic is deception. So we will be hearing about all sorts of fake history. And historical deception seems timely. Last year, we had a blast talking about Augustus failed attempts to secure an air and we’re looking forward to presenting on something similarly Imperial and scandalous this year. We hope that you can join us and all your other favorite podcasters at Intelligent Speech, and now on with the episode you

Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 1:13
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 1:18
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad, and

Dr G 1:28
I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 1:38
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr rad, and

Dr G 1:59
I am Dr G, and I’m super excited to be here because we’re about to talk about 397 BCE, indeed,

Dr Rad 2:09
we are Dr G as we trace the story of room from the founding of the city. But before we get to 397 Can we please quickly recap what happened in 398,

Dr G 2:22
look, there was some sort of lake. It rose up. I think that might be all I recall. Yeah, no, it was important. I didn’t have a lot of evidence, but I think I had some things that suggested that, you know, we had a dangerous time. There was some reading of some portents, one of the people from they revealed the nature of the portent to the Romans, which then prompted the Romans to take some action to make sure the portent worked out in their favor.

Dr Rad 2:51
You are more correct than you know. Dr G, so we’re right in the middle of this lengthy siege of they a rival Etruscan city to Rome, that even though we’ve got this very epic story, is actually not that far away. But we understand why the Romans want to conquer it. It’s powerful. It’s on their doorstep. It’s from a rival peoples they want it for their close to home. Yeah, and it’s been dragging on for a while. It’s been causing internal tension in Rome over issues like military pay and military service. So the quicker this is wrapped up, the better. And last episode, we did indeed have a man from ve, potentially an older man, a soothsayer of some kind, being kidnapped, and he revealed that the only way Rome was going to be able to conquer the city of a was if they figured out how to deal with the excessive water in this particular lake that you mentioned.

Dr G 3:52
Now, intriguing. Now, I have to say, one of our Patreon supporters got in touch with us about this, to discuss the way that there is some evidence from a volcanology perspective, that’s right, or the flooding of these kinds of volcanic lakes from volcanic activity that happens below them that then pushes the water up above the line that it usually sits at. So if you’ve got a lot of magma moving around under the surface, all of a sudden, you might get a situation which appears preternatural, but is actually the result of volcanic activity. And I loved the fact that they reached out with this detail, because I am not a volcanologist. I am an ancient historian. I was just baffled by this, like,

Dr Rad 4:38
what are you bringing to the show, if not volcanology, get out of here!

Dr G 4:42
Charm and good looks. Thank you.

Dr Rad 4:43
Well, that would make so much sense, and I agree with you. So glad that someone reached out with this detail. Because we are, of course, talking about the album like which is seemingly not connected to they, which is in completely the other direction. However, sign. Come from? Whence signs come? Dr, G, when the gods choose to speak, it may not be geographically appropriate, and that makes sense, because the Alban Mons was an active volcano up until around 1150 BC. I believe which, which might explain why there’s not a lot of people living this area until just after that. So that kind of makes sense. You know, the volcano stuff, it adds up.

Dr G 5:29
It does. So I think that’s an exciting detail that adds into this. Because you’re like, Okay, that sounds like a really bizarre story on the surface, but there could be some natural phenomena that is feeding into what is some very unusual natural observations that are happening from the side of they and the portents that are suggested as a result.

Dr Rad 5:50
Yeah. So thank you very much. Patreon, listener for your volcanology tip and with that, Dr, G, I think We might be ready to dive into 397, BCE,

Oh, all right. Dr G, 397 BCE, please tell me. Who are we dealing with as magistrates? This year,

Dr G 6:33
our players, the magistrates, we have a whole suite of military tribunes with consular power, and they’re all patricians,

Dr Rad 6:44
back in the saddle again for the ride through the town with the elites. Yeah,

Dr G 6:51
look, you can have some successes in your siege under a plebeian leadership. But is that enough to keep them in power? No people who have always had power want it back, and they want it back yesterday, so

Dr Rad 7:05
yesterday and forever. Dr, G, yeah,

Dr G 7:07
look so people we have in the role. We’ve got some names that are going to sound awfully familiar, and I think most of these people, by and large, have held positions before, or if not, they come from families that are going to be well known, well well heard amongst listeners, sure. So we have Lucius Iulius Vopisci.

Dr Rad 7:31
Ulis, yep, I definitely recognize that name, and I reconsider 90% of the people listening to this show

Dr G 7:38
like a Julii in power. What are the chances? Previously, a military Tribune in 401 so really, quite recently, Lucius Furius Medullinus,

Dr Rad 7:50
yeah, yeah,

Dr G 7:52
a Furius back in the saddle. Previously, consul in 413, and 409 and previously, military tribunein 407, 405, but most importantly, 398, just the previous year. Methinks,

Dr Rad 8:08
you’ve got a bit of a monopoly on power.

Dr G 8:11
He certainly seems to hold a lot of position. So he seems to be quite popular new kid on the block, but very familiar name, Lucius Sergius Fidenas,

Dr Rad 8:23
yes, descended, I presume, from a branch of a family that’s had something to do with the conquest of Fidenae, one would assume, yes,

Dr G 8:34
following up, also new to the role Aulus Postumius Albinus Regillensis, new

Dr Rad 8:40
man, but perhaps very familiar name.

Dr G 8:43
Yeah, we’re like, is that a new guy? Because that sounds like somebody we’ve talked about before. I agree. How many, how many, how many Postumii are there? We;ve then got Publius Cornelius, Maluginensis.

Dr Rad 8:58
I hate that name.

Dr G 9:00
Also first turn around the block, and then Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, who was also previously military tribune in 405, and 4020, okay. I do have some mention that there are some legates or some ambassadors, indeed, but apparently Livy talks about them, so I don’t have their names.

Dr Rad 9:21
Oh well, okay, I have their names so I can go through the little list, and then we’ll see how they come up in our story. We’ve got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now we think that’s his name, who’s a patrician, previously military Tribune with consular power in 406, 404 and 401 and then we’ve got Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, previously military Tribune in 400 BC. We’ve then got Lucius Valerius Potitus, and he has been military Tribune with consular power in 414 406, 403, 401, and 398,

Dr G 10:03
somebody’s popular at high school. Yeah.

Dr Rad 10:05
Now that’s, that’s one set. Oh, yeah,

Dr G 10:09
there are more sets. Yeah. Well, this is

Dr Rad 10:11
the thing. There’s a bit of confusion about, I think, these positions. So we may be dealing instead with Caius Valerius Potitus. Yeah. Consul in 410, military Tribune in 415, and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, military Tribune with consular power in 410, 404 and 401 or we might be dealing with a Numerius Fabius Ambustus.

Dr G 10:43
Oh, okay, now that that we’ve hit the Ambustii, yeah, in this list, I’m like, wait a minute. I had these people listed down for the previous year, but apparently, maybe some of them are ongoing in their ambassadorial Yeah. I

Dr Rad 10:59
think there’s a bit of confusion. There’s a bit of confusion. There’s definitely a bit of confusion happening around these Ambassador legate people. All right,

Dr G 11:08
okay. They’re still there, still hanging around. They are

Dr Rad 11:11
listed in Broughton, and therefore I accept that they were there.

Dr G 11:15
No fair enough. So when we’re talking about legates at this time period, it’s basically a delegation. You could be given any kind of task. It’s whatever the military tribunes or the Senate decide needs to be done. So it’s not like they hold a specific military position. I mean, you do get military legates later, but you could be asked to do any task that’s administrative in nature, that is supportive of the Roman state. Yeah. So whatever that is, and I’m probably about to hear about it for the first time,

Dr Rad 11:47
well, I think, I think the reason why there’s a bit of overlap is that we, of course, had some legits legging it to see the Oracle at Delphi in the previous year. I would maybe implying that maybe they’re still traveling at this point in time that might have something to do with it.

Dr G 12:05
Are you telling me it’s not that fast to travel all the way to Delphi okay, it’s

Dr Rad 12:09
bit of a journey. It’s a bit of a journey. All right. Dr, G, you ready? Therefore to jump into 397, now that we kind of know who we’re dealing with,

Dr G 12:18
I’m excited to find out what happens for sure? Yep.

Dr Rad 12:22
Okay, so we have a new enemy on the horizon for Rome in this year, the Tarquinenses.

Dr G 12:33
Oh, dear. Yeah, these the inhabitants of Tarquinii. This

Dr Rad 12:37
is to do with the area of Tarquinii, yes. So we’re talking about an Etruscan peoples, yes. Now they notice that Rome is dealing with a lot of other enemies at this point in time. So not only do they have the siege at they which is ongoing and they, of course, has by this time, being joined by neighboring peoples, the Falerr and people from Capena. And then we’ve also got them fighting the Volsci who were contesting occupation of Anxur. We’ve talked about that a few times. That’s been tossed backwards and forwards between the Romans and the Volscians like a hot potato. And then we’ve also got the Aequians who are engaged in attacking the Roman colony at Labici, oh,

Dr G 13:25
dear. It sounds like the Romans have got enemies on every single side.

Dr Rad 13:29
When don’t they talk to G, when don’t they this is

Dr G 13:33
a particularly robust group of everybody that they’ve really ever encountered, not having anything nice to say about them and deciding that attacking is worthwhile. So the Volsci and the Aequians, sort of to the south and the south east, the Falsicans, the Capenates and the people of they to the north, and the Tarquinii also to the north. It’s a pretty big sweep of war on two fronts and multiple enemies on both fronts, and

Dr Rad 14:03
just when you thought that Rome couldn’t take anymore. Dr, G, I’m gonna add a smattering of internal problems. Uh, oh yeah, we’re talking, of course, about the patricians and the plebeians.

Dr G 14:15
Well, Color me surprised. What are they up to now? Oh,

Dr Rad 14:19
well, you know, they always have these ongoing issues, don’t they? I mean, we’re in the conflict of the orders, and we will be for quite some time now.

Dr G 14:28
Oh boy,

Dr Rad 14:29
it couldn’t be really more problematic in Rome right now. So the people who are the Tarquinenses are right on the money in saying that Rome has its hands full. Now, if I were being historical about this. Dr, G, I might want to point out that there are some eerie parallels between events from this year at another year, which we haven’t actually covered yet, which is 388, BCE, oh, okay,

Dr G 14:55
that’s a very close year to have as a parallel, but I’ll allow it. Yeah.

Dr Rad 15:00
I think it’s just that historians have definitely noticed that there are some interesting overlaps in that. We also have war with the Tarquinii. We’ve also got Camillus showing up in that year. We’ve also got an attack on the Aequians. It’s just some interesting crossovers there, which may or may not be coincidental.

Dr G 15:22
This might explain why my evidence is such a mess. Because there is some evidence that I have that I think goes with a later year, but could possibly be connected with this one. And I think for now, I’m just going to leave it until later, and whenever we get to the episode where I think it belongs. But yes, there was some confusion, even with the small amount of things I have available to me as evidence right now about where things go in terms of the timeline. Yes,

Dr Rad 15:49
exactly, yeah. So basically, the tar quinnenzis, they decide they’re going to just dabble in some raiding whilst Rome is too busy to really pay attention. They totally believe that the Romans are either going to just ignore the attacks as they didn’t have the capacity to address it, or if they decided to deal with it, they wouldn’t be sending their best men, and therefore might be easily defeated or dealt with. I

Dr G 16:15
see. Okay, so it’s a raid of opportunity.

Dr Rad 16:19
It is definitely now, the Romans were not necessarily particularly worried by this raiding, because, of course, come on, they’re wrong. They’re way too awesome to worry about such minor problems. However, it’s the manners, the etiquette, that is at stake here. Dr G, it is an outrageous and unprovoked attack. How very dare you. Is basically their response to these people.

Dr G 16:47
How rude any warning. Yes, exactly.

Dr Rad 16:51
It’s just, it’s just not the way that we do cricket. Yeah, can’t

Dr G 16:57
you see, I’m busy with a whole bunch of other wars. You could at least send a letter to warn us we were about to do this kind

Dr Rad 17:04
of as predicted. The Romans indeed did not put much effort into their preparation for dealing with this new and unexpected enemy. But they also didn’t hesitate to deal with this situation. Aulus Postumius and Lucius Iulius. They weren’t able to hold a regular levy because the tribunes of the plebs are named, prevented one. So instead, they set out with a volunteer force totally made up of anyone who had been talked into signing up. And they decided to travel through car A and managed to surprise this new enemy as they were journeying home happily with their stolen booty in their backpacks.

Dr G 17:49
Wow. Okay, so I think the most impressive thing here is that there was anybody left in Rome who would volunteer go on a party when they’re in the middle of so many wars. And the reason why the tribune of the plebs are probably trying to prevent the levy is because the people, by and large, do not want to be levied anymore. No,

Dr Rad 18:08
who is, I agree with you, who is left to levy?

Dr G 18:11
Yeah. Who are these people? Yeah. Is it the young patricians who are like, it’s time for me to show my masculinity out in the field? Yeah. Is

Dr Rad 18:19
it children? Is it the elderly?

Dr G 18:23
I don’t know. Volunteers, Goodness me.

Dr Rad 18:26
But of course, because these people are totally beneath the Romans, the Romans managed to kill a lot of them. I mean, it is surprise attack, to be fair, and they managed to take back all the booty that had been stolen from them and headed back to Rome. Wow.

Dr G 18:41
Okay, so on some level, I suppose this could just be read as a standard surprise attack, but I wonder if this is also something where Livy is now trying to build a narrative of Etruscan decline, because interesting. So the Tarquinii are one of the Etruscan peoples, and we know that they is not in a great situation. They haven’t lost this siege yet. But watch out, everybody, spoilers.

Dr Rad 19:13
Yes, it could be definitely a bit of an indication of what is about to come spoilers. Yes, so the Romans then have a very amusing situation to me, which we’ve spoken of often, Dr G, which is where they basically put everything out in the open, and they say, Come and get your stuff. You got two days. Oh,

Dr G 19:31
okay, so is this like a is this a booty situation? Yeah,

Dr Rad 19:36
because I take him back, basically everything that had been taken in this, in this initial attack, has been taken back in the reverse surprise attack. And so they come home with all this stuff. And stupidly, the Romans have not put their name on everything in black texture. And so they just put it all out and they say, right, you got two days. Everybody and anything that’s left on the third day is going. To be sold under the spear, and the money raised will be split between the soldiers that served in this surprise attack. Selling something under the spear means a spear would sort of be set up to as like an advertisement saying, Come and get it, and it would be essentially a public auction. Intriguing.

Dr G 20:17
Now I wonder if there would ever be anything left, I feel like the onus would be on. The priority would be to take as much stuff as possible, particularly if you were involved in the raid. Because what if there was nothing left at the end for that auction to raise money for yourself? That would suck. Yeah, this, this does sound like a bizarre set of maneuvers. You know, there

Dr Rad 20:42
might be an odd shoe doesn’t have,

Dr G 20:46
like I see that leather vest, but I could make one better myself. Yeah, take that rubbish home. Etruscan rubbish. No. Well, so

Dr Rad 20:54
anyway, so that’s what happens. That’s a little bit obviously of Roman success, which is just as well, because as for the rest of the Roman campaigns, it’s not going that well. Dr, g Now, don’t get me wrong, the Romans are definitely not losing their other campaigns, but they’re certainly not winning. It’s basically a stalemate just all around. Ah,

Dr G 21:15
well, that’s tough times, isn’t it? Not making any progress, just sort of waiting it out, and it’s the grind of war. It

Dr Rad 21:23
is. It is so the Romans feel that they’re stuck in this situation. They no longer feel that they’re going to be getting any help from humans. We need to turn to the divine. Dr, G, and wouldn’t you know it? It’s right about now that those legates slash ambassadors returned from the Delphic

Dr G 21:43
Oracle. Oh, good timing, guys,

Dr Rad 21:47
exactly. Now they did have that soothsayer, the elderly soothsayer that had been kidnapped from they, who told them how to deal with the rising waters in the Alban Lake, and that unless they dealt with that, they would never triumph over they. But naturally, because he’s from the enemy, they’re in little bits and submissions that he might be trying to throw them off course. And they wanted verification. The Delphic Oracle says exactly the same thing as the old man has said. So now they have corroboration. Of course, being an Oracle, it says it in a much, much more wordy Oracle, e sort of way the the meaning is essentially the same, I

Dr G 22:23
suppose, yes. I mean the famously, these oracles could be misinterpreted. So I hope this one is clearer than most

Dr Rad 22:30
well. Interestingly, some historians, of course, have looked into this oracle, and it does apparently stem from something that has been translated from the Greek, and the prophecy is thought to be one that isn’t really an original Oracle from Delphi, but one of these ones that had sort of popped up in the late Republic and was reported to be an Oracle from Delphi. Oh, I

Dr G 23:00
see, okay, the way that, I mean, yeah, okay, yeah. So we’re dealing with a bit of a sort of an anachronistic sort of retrojection back into this, at least

Dr Rad 23:10
in the wording, yeah. I mean, the meaning might have, you know, always been there. But yes, the way that it’s worded, I believe, hmm,

Dr G 23:17
I think this is a really interesting move, on the behalf of the Romans to be like, we need to put our faith in not any sort of soothsayer necessarily, or even local members of the sipper lines, for instance, but we need to travel all the way to Delphi to get an answer. This might be indicative of just how under the pump the Romans feel in this moment, with this ongoing siege, that they’re like, We really need the big guns for this one. But it is an interesting sense in which we can understand Rome as being part of that broader Mediterranean world. They’re not just relying on their own people. They’re certainly not just relying on the Etruscans, and they’re willing to travel quite vast distances in order to get some sort of divine insight into their local problems,

Dr Rad 24:04
and now the Romans feel obliged to give the Delphic Oracle a very generous gift once the war was entirely over. So that’s their future intention. Ah,

Dr G 24:16
yes, okay, I look forward to this because I think I’ve read a little bit about this, but it doesn’t happen this year. I’m like, No, this

Dr Rad 24:22
is just a an intention. They’re like, mental note. Put it in the diary, guys. Once we finish dealing with this situation, we better send them something really nice. We’ll get them a box of lint chocolates. We want top quality. We want foreign champagne. The whole works.

Dr G 24:38
All right, so prepare yourselves for a hamper. Priestess of Apollo, given

Dr Rad 24:44
that we are currently recording this at around Christmas time, I feel like there’s going to be all sorts of strange things in this hamper as well that you would never normally eat, but somehow turn up in hampers.

Dr G 24:55
Yeah, you’re like, Oh, that’s really intriguing. Yeah, some

Dr Rad 24:59
sort of. Pate, some sort of spread made of something that you never thought could be turned into a spread.

Dr G 25:04
Well, you’re like, thank you.

Dr Rad 25:08
Now, of course, all of a sudden, the guy that they had kidnapped from they the soothsayer that had told them ages ago about this whole lake situation is very respected in urban society, because wouldn’t you know what he was telling the truth this whole time.

Dr G 25:24
Can you imagine his fate, if that he had not been corroborated by the Delphic Oracle, would have been death very quickly. So I’m glad for his sake, but that it’s turned out well, it’s

Dr Rad 25:35
I think this is where your version of events makes more sense than mine in this particular instance, because you highlighted that in your account, this guy was tortured for information, whereas in my account, he seems to very willingly just give information up. Either way, I definitely would have been suspicious. Torture means he might have just been saying it to make the pain stop. The other way around, it seems a little quick that he just suddenly turns against his own people and tells the Romans what they need to know.

Dr G 26:03
Where’s the sense of loyalty? What’s in it for him?

Dr Rad 26:06
Yes, the military tribunes, Cornelius and Postumius, want to use the soothsayer to take care of this whole album Lake overflowing situation, especially because now the gods are involved, they feel they have to appease the gods by taking care of that particular situation. Sounds

Dr G 26:21
reasonable, all right, so they’re going to get a workforce onto that one.

Dr Rad 26:25
Now they also find that there’s been an offense against the gods, because there was a problem with some of the magistrates.

Dr G 26:36
Oh dear.

Dr Rad 26:38
Turns out that there had been a problem with the election. Oh, okay, it had been improperly proclaimed, these Latin games and a sacrifice conducted on the Alban Mount. Now this is probably referring to a Latin festival that of Juppiter Latiarius. This is probably what it’s referring to here, which was something that is associated with the Latin League. It was held every year. And after this festival, that’s where there’d be a sacrifice, and there’d be the proclamation of new consuls or military tribunes at this time. So it seems that somewhere in here, at this very important moment of proclamation, something had gone wrong.

Dr G 27:24
Okay, so I think this is one of those things about Ancient Rome which is off overlooked, particularly for the Republic, but is super important, which is the way in which their politics is very much tied in to their relationship with the gods at all times. So the way that things are pronounced, the way that things are said, all of those ritual formulations, are extremely important in order to get right for things to be proper in the eyes of the gods, from a Roman perspective. So if something has gone wrong in any of that stuff, and they come back around and they realize this is a huge problem. So does this mean that they disband this whole group of, like, military tributes we’re

Dr Rad 28:10
getting there. We’re getting I’m just gonna add okay to what you just said. I think it’s also, I think you’re totally right about that, but I think it’s also potentially a problem with the sacrifice, like, it sounds like a great big stuff up on their part.

Dr G 28:22
Oh, a problem with the sacrifice. Do they have details about what went wrong with the sacrifice?

Dr Rad 28:27
No, just says there was a problem, a problem

Dr G 28:31
with a sacrifice. Yeah, all right, I’m very intrigued by this. Yeah. Please continue. Yeah.

Dr Rad 28:36
Well, and I just thought I’d also mention because people might not know much about this. Indeed, I don’t know much about this because I’m not really into religion as much as you are. But this particular gathering, this festival, it’s very ancient. As far as we can tell. It goes back a really, really long way. It’s held, funnily enough, on the Alban mount, which we keep talking about, this previously volcanic mountain, which has now become such a focus of so many of our stories. And it is something where various Latin people come together, and it’s where you can see this commonality between them in terms of the language that they speak in terms of the gods that they worship, potentially also the way that their societies are organized. You know, we offer, you know, we’ve often questioned, do they have exactly the same political setup as the Romans? Because sometimes it seems like the Roman sources assume that they do. Maybe they do,

Dr G 29:36
maybe they do. There has got to be some sort of cultural connection. You would assume, even if things are run slightly differently in each place, that shared language and a shared understanding of the gods that need to be looked after and appeased is a sense of commonality of purpose, even if there are small nuances of differences in how each one is run. Politically when they go back home, yeah? Now, if we’re talking about problems that you could have with a sacrifice, I mean, there’s a whole number of problems potentially. And this

Dr Rad 30:10
is a big have, yeah, this is a bull that is sacrificed, okay,

Dr G 30:14
yeah, because it has to be, obviously, it has to be the right kind of bull. So you would hope that that’s not the mistake that they’ve got the right kind of bull in terms of its coloration, for instance, and its age, things like that are very important. But it could be something about the nature of the procession to the ritual killing. It could be something about how the knife was wielded during the sacrifice. It could be something about what was said in the moment over the sacrifice, either before it happened or after it happened. So those verbalizations tend to be something that is really possible to make a mistake with, and could be heavily scrutinized afterwards. Now, how would you know you’d be waiting for other signs of the gods, right, to suggest that there was some sort of displeasure here, so then you’d have to backtrack. Yeah, yeah, the lake might be the indicator. Be like, Oh no, the lake, guys, I don’t think we did it, right, yeah.

Dr Rad 31:16
And it is. It is so interesting, because, as you say, I feel like I often do overlook these religious aspects to Roman life. And obviously this is beyond Roman life. This is about Latin communal life where they’re coming together. And it becomes a really important sign that you’re invited to this, you know that you’re part of that particular community, and it’s something that the Romans will continue to attend for, like, a really long time. So it’s probably not the only moment where we might mention this particular festival. Now we don’t know how far back this particular association goes exactly, even though we know the festival itself is very ancient, but it might be something to do with this myth idea that the Latins all trace their ancestry back to Latinus, the father in law of anaeus, who’s obviously very important in terms of Roman understanding of themselves and their connection to Trojan War survivors, who is transformed into The figure of Juppiter Latiarius after his death. Now that may come after the festival, maybe a way of explaining some aspects of it, but certainly it does eventually have that particular association as well, which again highlights that shared culture.

Dr G 32:35
Yeah. And as far as these sorts of things go, there’s likely to be a number of different locations, in different spots locally, where gatherings happen depending on the god, depending on the time of year. So shared sacred spaces, essentially where people come together to meet in order to do this kind of ritual undertaking, in order to make sure those relationships with the gods are solid. Now I think what I would love to know, and I think might be impossible to really know, is how often might it be the case that the Romans are turning up to these sort of shared sacred spaces in order to engage in communal sharing of gods and sacrifice with people that they are also potentially at war with outside of those spaces, I’ve wondered to what degree that is happening, or whether there are times where certain groups don’t attend in anticipation of not wanting to run into groups that they’re currently in conflict with it is an

Dr Rad 33:41
interesting question, because as far as we can tell, the Romans did not initiate this festival, and it’s something that they just they became a part of, and became a perhaps more important part of as they start to conquer. You know, surrounding cities and towns and their reach grows larger, but yes, I agree. Awkward,

Dr G 34:03
awkward. Oh, hey guys, just, just here for the sacrifice.

Dr Rad 34:09
Could you please pass the slaughtered ball

Dr G 34:12
that guy tried to stab me last year on the battlefield? Anything

Dr Rad 34:18
now, as you highlighted Dr G in this particular moment, the only thing that could be done to address this was to get all of the military tribunes to resign their office and to retake the auspices and start an interregnum in the place of the military tribunes. Because, oh goodness, yeah, it causes huge problems, obviously, for their their power, the legality of that power, it’s just not worth the risk.

Dr G 34:44
Wow. It’s been a while since, I think we’ve had an interregnum. Yeah? Okay, I’m up for that. Sure. Let it commence.

Dr Rad 34:52
Yeah? So, I mean, I think it’s because they see all these signs, not just the lake, but obviously the fact that they’re not having much success in battle, like they’re not you. Not a disaster, but it’s not what they aspire to. So the Senate orders that this takes place the interregges who are chosen are Lucius Valerius, Quintus Servilius Fidenas and Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr G 35:12
Oh, okay, well,

Dr Rad 35:15
how convenient. Yes, there are ongoing problems caused by these unnamed tribunes of the plebs who are continuing to cause issues. In this particular instance, they are blocking elections until they receive assurances that most of the new military tribunes with consular power would be plebeians,

Dr G 35:38
fair enough. I mean, it’s a classic tribune of the plebs move. I applaud them for it, and I wish them all the very best. Yeah,

Dr Rad 35:45
yeah. And I think this is perhaps why they’re unnamed, because Livy’s just like, Oh my God, here we go again. Not more of this segue to what’s going on in the Etruscan land. Ooh. The Etruscans are also having a bit of a meeting at this moment in time. Now, we’ve often seen the Etruscans come together at voltuner. It’s where they all seem to meet chat and get on Veii’s case.

Dr G 36:16
What’s happening down there this time? Guys? You need help again? We’re busy. Yeah.

Dr Rad 36:20
So now that they’ve got the capernaus and the Philistines involved in this whole shenanigan, they are strongly suggesting that all the Etruscans should band together to try and help end the siege against vein, because they’re obviously now committed. And they’re like, Come on, guys, come on. We know you hate vein, but what about us? We’re adorable. However, once again, the Etruscans say a big fat no to helping. They citing their old reason that they had never shown any interest in helping or caring for anyone else but themselves. It

Dr G 36:51
is really interesting, because one How would Livy know this, but also this idea that Etruria as a nation is starting to break down. Like, under what circumstances would you not try to look after one of your own? They is an Etruscan city. So the idea that the rest of the Etruscans are getting together and being like, No, and it’s like, it’s really rejecting somebody from your family at that point. Oh, yeah. Like, you’re on your own, whatever. Yeah.

Dr Rad 37:23
No, I know it’s kind of bizarre, because surely they can see that things aren’t going terribly, but it’s not good. It’s been the Siege has been enduring for quite some time now, and what

Dr G 37:33
does it what does the true area think is going to happen if they falls? Who do they think is next? It’s like they haven’t thought ahead the way the civiliscans and the capinartes have. They’re like, they’re like, no, no, we’re a solid block. We’ll be fine.

Dr Rad 37:48
The Etruscans also have their own problems going on, which might also explain their reluctance to help the people of A and that is that they’re dealing with. And I quote my translation of Livy, a strange race new settlers. Who are these people? No freaking idea. The Etruscans aren’t actually engaged in warfare with them at this point in time, but it’s clear that it’s a prickly situation, right?

Dr G 38:14
Are these people, by any chance, from the North?

Dr Rad 38:18
I know what you’re thinking, and we can’t really be sure, it doesn’t seem quite right. Seems too early.

Dr G 38:25
Intriguing. Yeah, I

Dr Rad 38:26
I’ll just explain to the listeners. I believe Dr G is asking if they are indeed, Gauls. Are

Dr G 38:34
they have the French arrive. Everyone’s like, I’m confused, but their cheese is delicious, so I’ll let them stay for now.

Dr Rad 38:44
Yeah, honestly, not sure. But from what I’ve seen so far, I think the answer is probably no, okay, yeah, but we don’t know. Okay,

Dr G 38:52
I wonder if they’re people from the other side of the Apennines. Then there’s sort of like, the East Coast Italians coming over the way, being like, hello,

Dr Rad 39:02
East Coast. West Coast. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So the Etruscans decide to make a bit of a compromise in this whole scenario, which is that any of their young men who want to go and volunteer may go and help. They once again volunteering. Big thing 397,

Dr G 39:19
nobody’s got any money that that we’ve established

Dr Rad 39:22
that might be it.

Dr G 39:25
They spend it all paying the soldiers to get through winter. Nobody’s got any cash left. Etruscans included,

Dr Rad 39:30
yeah, with young people going to volunteer to help, they the Romans, of course, presumably don’t know that all of this is going on, that this is a negotiation that’s happening, and so all they see is this huge influx of young fighting men, and they’re like, holy crap. What does this mean? Is this a sign that worse is to come? This seems very worrying. And of course, as soon as the external threat that external pressure is increased, it means that the patrician and plebeian problems, they got to take a back seat that predictable pattern that we come to know and love. Dr, G,

Dr G 40:08
yes, we need to band together, put aside our personal political differences and make sure we win this war. It’s the only way. In fact, it is the only patrician way to navigate anything. Yes,

Dr Rad 40:22
it’s at this moment that we see a return of Publius Licinius Calvus, if that name doesn’t ring a bell for shame, because he was the first ever military Tribune with consular power, who was definitely, without doubt, a plebeian. And he first served in 400 BC, so only a few years ago.

Dr G 40:41
How could one forget that’s very exciting. But what’s he What is he going to do? Does this mean they’ve put him into a magistracy or,

Dr Rad 40:48
yeah, he’s he’s chosen again, to be prospective military tribune with consular power for the following year. I believe that’s what, oh, that’s what they want. And I think because they know that he’s a very moderate character. Remember, if we cast our minds back to 400 BCE, it seems that he was chosen because, whilst he has the plebeian background that would please the tribunes of the plebs and the plebs themselves, he was not offensively radical to the patricians,

Dr G 41:16
very willing to roll patrician style, yes, and

Dr Rad 41:20
because he had proved himself before, I think they see this as a compromise moment, once again, all right, very interesting. Now I’m going to add another detail. It’s going to blow your mind here. Okay, okay, so he was chosen even though he had not run for the office.

Dr G 41:41
Okay. Well, that sounding more classic Roman potential, weird horse moment being like, I’m just hanging around being a dude, and it’s like, we need you to save Rome. Yeah,

Dr Rad 41:52
I think that’s it. I think they see him as serving a very particular purpose and a moment of tension when they need the Roman people to be united, and the senators are very happy that he is around to serve this purpose. And I think the idea is they’re going to get the whole band back together. That’s what Livy says. He’s like, let’s just get everybody from 400 because that was a great team. We want that team. We need that team. Wow.

Dr G 42:15
Okay, well, I feel like that’s that will be an interesting moment for them, if that’s the path they decide to tread for the next year. But I guess, I guess we’ll find out soon. We

Dr Rad 42:26
will, and I’m gonna have to save, unfortunately, the details of exactly what happens for the following year, because, of course, this is all for the following year. So this is looking forward to 396, the detail that I’ll finish up on. And this is one I must admit, that I always find confusing to explain, because the Roman voting system is always one that perplexes me, particularly early on in this stage where we can’t be 100% sure about a lot of details, but the way that he was chosen was apparently by prerogatives. Now explaining this is where I get a little a little tripped up. Essentially, the idea is that there are 18 centuries of knights, and they would vote first, and if they all vote the same way, the other centuries are not required to vote because they outnumber it. That whole idea of like the the rich and the powerful out ranking everybody else,

Dr G 43:17
yeah, there’s a yeah, there’s a clear system of who gets to vote in what order. And then there’s a first past the post kind of element to this, where it’s like, once they reach a threshold of who the winner is, everybody else can just go home.

Dr Rad 43:31
Yes. The difference is that with the praerogativa, the idea is that one would be chosen by lot. Okay, yeah, so that’s kind of the idea, rather than them all voting together as a voting block, eventually, there was a system introduced where one would be one of the centuries would be chosen by lot, and it would be revealed to the rest of the assembly before a vote was recorded. So it was kind of being like, this is the way that we’re heading, kind of indication, I suppose,

Dr G 44:08
okay, and that selection by lot happens before the voting commences. Yeah,

Dr Rad 44:13
it’s this idea that one of the centuries. So presumably, what we’re talking about here is like the committee a century art, and it’s like one of the centuries from the first class would be chosen by a lot, and that would be like an indication of where things were going eventually, it was, I believe, adapted so that a single century would be chosen by a lot to try and make it a bit fairer. Now, all of these developments that I’m talking about here, they’re all things that we can only test for certain at a much later date. We have no idea when these things actually really started.

Dr G 44:47
Yeah, the voting organization is very unclear from our source material for this particular period, and I think we only start to get some really solid evidence, some hints and tips. It’s in a century or two.

Dr Rad 45:02
Yes, exactly. So exactly what this means is a little unclear, but it certainly, I think, is meant to be indicating that, look, this is the way that the vote would go. And we like this guy, we want Publius, Licinius Calvus, to be our man. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah, so it’s a little confusing. I apologize that I’ve explained this badly, but it’s mostly because it’s all about who has the right to vote first, essentially. And the reason why it’s confusing is that it’s really hard to know exactly how this would have played out at this particular moment in time, for sure. And that is about all I have for 397, BCE, dr, G

Dr G 45:44
Oh, well. Exciting news. I have things to tell you about the broader Mediterranean world. Love it, not a lot, but I don’t have much on Rome, but I have made a note about this prerogative motion in voting systems, because I’ll go and have a look at it and have a look at it and see what I can dig up, because I would love to know more.

Dr Rad 46:04
Yes, and I must admit, when I looked the more I looked it up, the more I became incredibly confused, because it’s obviously been adapted several times, and none of those particular tested moments may have anything to do with this story.

Dr G 46:18
Yeah, it’s a tough one, particularly for this early period of the Republic. So the source that I have for this period is Diodorus Siculus, amazing. Who gets some of the names right of the military tribunes some of the names wrong, leaves a couple out. But he does also tell us about what’s going down with the Persians and the Athenians at this point in time. So we have this really interesting character called Conon. Now, Conon was a naval commander of the Athenians, and he gets voted in on multiple occasions as Dr Goss so as a military commander, General figure, and during the Peloponnesian War, he gets caught up with some situations around my deline, and he loses a whole bunch of his ships. And this is a problem, and he escapes out of this situation, and he flees to a king eurogoros And who’s in Cyprus. So he gets to a different island, he gets himself out of trouble, and it’s at that point that he’s put in touch with a guy called fauna barzos, who is a Sartre of the Persians, and is currently great king as well. So somehow, he falls in with the Persians, the powerful Persians at this time, and he is then taken in by the Persians and placed as an amral at the head of a Persian fleet because of his great skill set. So he’s basically escaped from a war like situation and sold his skill set to the Persians. The Persians have been willing to accept that, and he’s now an Athenian leading a Persian naval command. You’re like, this is chaos. What is this guy up to? I

Dr Rad 48:23
feel like that’s not a terribly uncommon story for the Greeks at this moment in time. Even though the Persians are often like their great enemy, a lot of people who fall afoul of their fellow Greeks seem to find their way to Persia.

Dr G 48:38
Yeah. And so it’s in this sort of like situation where it’s like he’s fallen in with the Persians, and they’re looking after him, and he’s been put in charge of stuff that they then send him because it probably because of his intelligence, they send him at the head of a Persian fleet to Athens so not only is he now working for The Persians, but he now is rocking up at the doorstep of his former homeland, entering the parius with 80 triremes. And he’s like, we’re here to help. The Persians are here to help everyone’s like, this situation is part of what is going on with this complexity of the Athenian situation, which has been variously strung out with the Peloponnesian War, which is just has wrapped up, but is now like, what are the consequences of that? And part of the consequences of that is that the Spartans are now seeing a power gap in opportunity, and so they see that this Conon character is that the head of this fleet, they try to make that a thing for them. It’s just getting really messy over there. He eventually gets lured back to Persia, and there he’s arrested because he’s not doing what the Persians want him to do. So the Athenians don’t seem to be particularly happy, and the Spartans are not very happy either. So it’s a tale of woe and dissatisfaction that is playing out in Greece. So I mean good luck to the legates and ambassadors who have been trying to travel to the Oracle at Delphi, because it seems like it’s a complicated time in the Mediterranean Sea in terms of who’s going where or what ship, and how they’re ending up, and who’s actually in charge. And how do you tell if somebody’s Persian or Athenian when they’re in command of a whole fleet of vessels? Nobody knows it’s madness out there. Indeed.

Dr Rad 50:36
Oh my goodness. Well, that’s

Dr G 50:37
that’s my fun tale. I’m sadly lacking in source material for the Romans. I

Dr Rad 50:42
suspect that will change for the next year. I’m very excited

Dr G 50:45
for the next year, because I have so many sources to consider,

Dr Rad 50:49
indeed. Well, I think that means, Dr G, that it’s probably time for and the partial pick a very tired little Igor today. So Dr G tell us about the partial pick. All

Dr G 51:04
right, we judge Rome by their own standards, and often they fail miserably, so we’ll see how they do this time round. But there are five categories that we’re going to consider, and they can win up to 10 golden eagles in each category, and at the end, we’ll add it up to see what they got out of 50 and whether it’s a pass or fail for the old romance this time round,

Dr Rad 51:27
I’m not holding my breath. I’m not going to lie. But let’s start off with our first category. First category is military clout, all right. Well, whilst widely acknowledged to be in a stalemate. They did have that little victory over those Raiders.

Dr G 51:43
I give them one point for that. They haven’t lost

Dr Rad 51:47
anything disastrously. They’re holding their own.

Dr G 51:51
They’ve won nothing else, but they’re facing so many enemies, okay, two I would expect, I expect more victories, but they’re

Dr Rad 52:01
not losing. They’re holding their own against several enemies and still managed to secure, okay, admittedly, a minor victory against some raiders, but still they got all their stuff back. Okay,

Dr G 52:12
how well have the Romans acquitted themselves in battle? Is the question that is connected with the concept of military clout. Well,

Dr Rad 52:20
they won against the Raiders. They got all their stuff back, and they give it back to everybody.

Dr G 52:23
Raiding is not a battle.

Dr Rad 52:25
No, the enemies were raiding. The Romans put those raiders in their place with volunteers, no less. Dr G, volunteers

Dr G 52:35
willing to give them one golden eagle. Nothing more. All right, fine, nothing less. The second category is diplomacy,

Dr Rad 52:44
Hmm, no, I don’t think so.

Dr G 52:48
I sense no negotiation. Well,

Dr Rad 52:50
I feel like the Etruscans are negotiating amongst themselves, but that doesn’t count for the Romans.

Dr G 52:54
It certainly does not expansion, no.

Dr Rad 52:58
I mean, they’re kind of just holding on desperately.

Dr G 53:05
Okay, weirdos? Oh,

Dr Rad 53:06
my God, no, there’s like nothing going on here.

Dr G 53:10
I don’t know. I felt like there was a weird to us moment when Calvus Didn’t put himself forward. Is

Dr Rad 53:18
that weird or so? Isn’t weird to us about taking action.

Dr G 53:22
I mean, yes, but it would also potentially if we had a scene where he actively declined.

Dr Rad 53:31
I don’t think that’s what happened. I think, I mean, it’s Look, I can’t, I don’t want to give anything away about the following year, but it seems more that he was just minding his own business, racing around trying to manage the folds of his toga. And he was chosen because he demonstrated that moderate behavior, which they felt Rome was sorely lacking at this point in time. And he doesn’t seem to have said No, exactly, okay.

Dr G 54:00
Well, he’s coming across as a pretty bland character. Yes, yes. Doesn’t say no. Just goes with the flow. I

Dr Rad 54:09
mean, look, there will there will come a moment which, which is going to complicate this story in the following year. But I don’t think he is like a Cincinnatus type of character where he’s like, you just leave me alone to farm. Well,

Dr G 54:21
in that case, I’m not seeing any clear signs of weird display. No.

Dr Rad 54:26
I mean, look again, there’s the dealing with the raiders, the military tribunes with consular power. They do that. They deal with the Alban Lake situation. But I feel that’s just politicking

Dr G 54:35
that is. I’m not necessarily seeing any standout figures of Roman weird to us. Yeah, all right. The final category perhaps the moment for redemption, because otherwise it’s looking pretty grim, is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 54:50
Oh boy. Okay, we don’t get a lot of insight in this year to what’s going on with the citizens, apart from the fact that there is this ongoing tension between the. Patricians and the plebeians. And again, it’s a very stalemate situation. While it doesn’t seem to be going that brilliantly for them, the tribunes of the plebs are definitely holding their own, unnamed as they are. They

Dr G 55:15
are. They seem to have denied a levy, but we also have citizens who are volunteering to go on some counter raid. That’s

Dr Rad 55:23
true. But from where are they? The ones that had their stuff stolen? Well,

Dr G 55:27
Give me back my blanket.

I want my shoes, damn it.

Dr Rad 55:31
How am I supposed to walk anywhere?

Dr G 55:35
They say, walk a mile in his shoes, and you understand him. Understand myself without shoes. Yeah? So anyway, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s what

Dr Rad 55:46
I mean. It’s very confusing. We do have the military tribunes refusing a levy. We have them postponing elections until they get certain assurances, which seem to have been somewhat successful because of this Licinius Calvus person being resurrected again, vanilla as he is. He is a plebeian vanilla bean.

Dr G 56:06
Well, I mean, if you have to have vanilla beans, let them be plebeian.

Dr Rad 56:10
Yeah, yeah. So there’s a little bit of success there, but there is still a lot of war going on, yes.

Dr G 56:15
So as a citizen, it doesn’t seem like it’s the worst time, because it’s not like that Romans having terrible losses on the battlefield, where you can be like, it’s a horrible time to be a Roman city. They don’t seem to be winning a lot either, no, except for the misplaced booty situation. So maybe

Dr Rad 56:34
two, yeah, I think that is fair. I think we also need to rewrite that famous line from Charles Dickens. It wasn’t quite the worst of times. It wasn’t quite the best of times.

Dr G 56:50
397, mediocre at best. Yeah,

Dr Rad 56:54
and that means Dr G that we have a total of three out of 50 Golden Eagles for Rome. Well,

Dr G 56:59
that’s quite low Rome, but maybe next year will be redemption.

Dr Rad 57:04
It’s one of those things because I’m like, actually, this was an interesting year in some ways, but it just wasn’t really going anywhere. It was like the holding pattern. Look this once again, could be Livy padding the narrative a little bit, until we get to the very big year of 396, he’s in a holding pattern. He’s circling. He’s circling a very big story not ready to come into land yet.

Dr G 57:29
Yeah. He’s like a little vulture just waiting for the 10 years to be up so he can start telling this tale about how

Dr Rad 57:36
How dare you He’s an eagle.

Dr G 57:39
Either way, either way. Yeah,

Dr Rad 57:41
all right. Dr, G, well, that is 397 wrapped up, and I am extremely excited to talk to you about 396 because I have indicated a number of times I have you it’s going to be a big one.

Dr G 57:53
Oh yeah, looking forward to it. You.

Dr Rad 57:55
Music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on ko fi. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say salve to Taurus, Vicky, the Mercian People’s Front and Gail some of our recent Patreon and Ko fi supporters. Thank you so much for joining the partial band. However, if you lost all of your money betting on the wrong Gladiator, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And if you’re looking for something delightful and rumin to read over your holiday break, you can grab yourself a copy of our latest book, your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire out now Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. You

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Are you ready to have a Totally Chaotic time?

We certainly hope so, as we are thrilled to welcome Dr Emma Southon back on the show for the FOURTH TIME (not the third, as incorrectly said by Dr Rad). Emma has released her first children’s book, which was co-authored with Greg Jenner and illustrated by Rikin Parekh.

Special Episode – Totally Chaotic History with Dr Emma Southon

The cover of Totally Chaotic History: Roman Britain Gets Rowdy!

This powerhouse trio have produced Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Whilst the target audience for this latest instalment in the Totally Chaotic series is 7-12 year olds, we thoroughly enjoyed it. Turns out that we didn’t know as much about Roman Britain as we thought!  

If you would like to chuckle and LOL your way through the lengthy history of the British and their interactions with the Romans, you need to grab a copy of this book. We were intrigued to find out how Greg, Emma and Rikin managed to pack so much historiography into a children’s history book. It was intriguing to find out about the process that went into building the layers of historical meaning on every page.   

Are you ready to get rowdy?

Things to Listen Out For:

• Robot hamsters
• Chaos ratings
• Tips on sight-seeing in Britain
• Emma’s upcoming projects

Ask Santa for Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Naturally, Mr Claus shops at your local independent bookstore.

Want more from Emma Southon? Check out our previous interview about A History of Rome in 21 Women from 2023.

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad, and I am Dr G and Dr G, we are joined by someone who is now, I think, a triple guest, which I don’t think we’ve ever had before. We are joined by Dr Emma Southon, who is without doubt, our top drag race fan to have on the podcast, but she also happens to be a top notch historian and hilarious, so that’s very handy for us. She is the author of a biography of Agrippina the Younger as well as a book called A fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, and, most recently, a history of Rome in 21 women, all of which you need to check out if you have not read them already, Emma is also the co host of the podcast. History is sexy, but we are here today to graduate her on her latest book, which is totally chaotic history Roman Britain gets rowdy, and in this collaboration, Emma gets together with a podcaster and all around famous author Greg Jenner and illustrator Rikin Parekh. So Emma, welcome,

Dr Emma Southon 2:06
hello. What a joy to be back. Am I really your first third person? That makes me feel special.

Dr Rad 2:11
I think so

Dr G 2:14
special you’ve come to the right place. So we

Dr Rad 2:17
are so excited to talk about this book, because it is very different, and we’re going to explore some of those differences in a moment for you. But let’s start with the general premise of the book. Shall we? The book is about Roman Britain, and we actually learned a lot by reading this, right? Because it is actually a children’s book, I should point out to people.

Dr Emma Southon 2:37
It isn’t for, technically, for like seven to 12 year olds, but both Greg and I love history, and so we put in about as much as we learned. Everything that we learned that we found was interesting, we chucked in there, and we’re very keen to make it a book that is proper history like So the premise is that Greg is an amateur historian who is telling the reader the story of whatever the period he’s covering, so telling the story of Roman Britain. And then that’s all in the present tense, and then he has expert interruptions from a professional historian and expert in the field, who, in the past tense, comes in and says, Actually, Greg, we used to think that, but now we think says, and we know this because we found x, y, z, or and this is what the evidence is. And kind of then gives you the historiography of the period as well, and the like, how we know what we know what kind of things historians have had arguments about what has shifted in our understanding of it, how we interpret the sources and just both widening the subjects as it’s usually taught to children. So it’s not just like decontextualized Roman Britain, which has like no time period, which is what you very often get with kids books. You just get, like, the Romans or and as if there was no change in the entire period. Or like, you know, the Romans are in Britain for 500 years, and there’s just pretense that it’s all the same and all the whole time, and also showing how we expanding what history is as it’s taught to children. So it’s not just giving them facts, as though we just we know those facts, but what historians actually do like how we learn, how we change our minds, how we have big history fights all the time, and have arguments about things, and how there isn’t, like one right answer in history. Most of the time, there’s a lot of wrong answers, but there’s very rare there’s also a lot of right answers. And so it sounds quite complicated, but because Greg is naturally hilarious, and because there a lot of it is done through illustration and the way that the page is laid out, it means that there can be lots of a lot going on on the page, and you can learn a whole lot from what looks like just a really fun, silly joke.

Dr Rad 4:59
Like, you’re making me feel a lot better about the fact that I learned a lot from reading

Dr Emma Southon 5:04
good that’s the aim. Is that? Because, I think that, especially with because I read the first is a series that Greg is doing, and he’s doing four initially. The first one was totally chaotic Egypt, and he sent me that, like, before it came out, to say, like, this is what the thing’s gonna look like. And I learned so much from that. And like I did, I haven’t technically done Egypt since I was an undergraduate, but I still felt like I had, you know, a basic grasp of it, but like, there’s a whole debate in there about why Egyptians mummified people and, like, what is the purpose of that? And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve never even thought about that as an like it’s just in a kid’s book for eight year olds, and a complete shift in my understanding of why Egyptian culture mummified people. Is it preservation, or is it actually a deliberate transformation? Because if it’s preservation, why are you taking the organs out that’s not preserving? Is it that’s transforming the body.

Dr Rad 6:02
That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 6:04
So, so I also learned a lot, and the next one is a stone age, and I’m looking forward to learning stuff about that. Okay,

Dr G 6:10
I’m ready to dig in. I’m gonna have to acquire the whole series. On the back of this amazing

Dr Rad 6:16
it makes me feel terrified that all these children are gonna grow up to be so incredibly educated

Dr Emma Southon 6:21
they are. They’re going to be smarter than by the time they’re 12. They’re going to know so

Dr Rad 6:26
exactly they’re going to be like, Excuse me, I think you’ll find that there’s historiographical debate about that exactly, that’s what we want, which I find terrific, because I’m a teacher, I’m actually going to encounter this. Thanks.

Dr Emma Southon 6:40
They’ll be the best kids, though. Yeah.

Dr G 6:43
We want that kind of smarts coming through. That’s that’s really exciting.

Dr Rad 6:47
So that’s an amazing description of what the book is all about, in sort of general terms. And it sort of made us realize that when we have looked at Roman Britain, it’s been very much about Caesar Claudius and Boudicca, the highlights, yeah, as I like to call them, which all happened in a very short period of time. So can you tell us a bit about some of the other chapters and what they specifically focus on?

Dr Emma Southon 7:06
So we have a chapter first at the beginning, about the late Iron Age and like, what is Britain like before Caesar gets there? Basically, very important, yeah, because I think that everybody thinks that see the Britain like before Caesar got there, is basically what Caesar describes, which is eight men with mustaches and 200 cows and nothing. So

Dr Rad 7:30
we’ve got a bit sounds like a party, yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 7:32
And then it effectively goes through, kind of chronologically, the the history of of the Roman occupation of Britain. And Britain as part of the Empire. So it does Caesar. And then the massive impacts that Caesar brings, because he makes Britain, or at least southern Britain, big chunks of it, become client kingdoms of the Roman Empire. And so there’s these relationships with Tiberius and Augustus that are very rarely written about in anywhere, to be honest, but they’re all there. And then Claudius, kind of second invasion, his big invasion, and then the resistance period after that. So you’ve got about 100 years of people like coraticus and the kind of ongoing attempts to remove the Romans. And then we really wanted it to not just focus on London. So we have a section on Wales. We’ve got sections on what’s happening in the north of England, on how these places are kind of slowly absorbed into the empire in different ways, especially Wales, which takes, like, a really concerted effort to get it in. And then we go all the way through talking about both how unique Britain is, in terms of how much of the army is there, how you get these kind of syncretic, syncretistic gods that you find in Britain? So we’ve got a god swap game where you get to match your gods to your local Yeah, all of them just match with Mars, because apparently the British just really took to Mars and were like, we hear you said he’s a god of war, but we’ve decided he’s the God of Everything. So and fashion. What do we you know? What are people wearing? What are people doing? Building fancy villas, building a town? Because what Rome really brings is urbanization, and then so you get towns for the first time and cities, but also you get these huge Villa estates that are like areas of agricultural production for export, which never existed before, and they’re really unique, like the way they’re built. And when everybody draws a Roman villa, they draw that kind of bracket shaped, you know, classic Italian Palace, but the ones in Britain are like corridors, and they’re kind of weird. So we’ve got lots of archeology and mosaics and how you build your villa. So we have a, we originally wrote a Grand Designs thing for that. So it was going to be like, someone’s coming to video. But they were like, I.

Dr Rad 10:00
Only 40 year olds will get eight year old is watching,

Dr Emma Southon 10:09
like he was really funny for us. And then we were like, no, no. Eight year old knows. So we did it as a catalog instead, like they’ll get that. And then we did, like, the building your villa, you’re building your town as a kind of Minecraft thing. So you get to did it as constructor the game, and then talked through all of the actually big history that happens in in Britain at the end of the Roman Empire. So from like 200 to 400 there are like three emperors that are proclaimed in Britain, including Caracalla and Geta of Gladiator II fame,

Dr Rad 10:42
absolutely, I was very, so excited to see the section on them. There

Dr G 10:46
they are hanging out. I will

Dr Emma Southon 10:49
tell you now, and I’m sorry they’re going to probably have to edit this out. But I spent the entire thing going, why is Geta the big one?

Dr G 10:58
Yeah. Surely this really assumed, yeah, miscasting,

Dr Emma Southon 11:03
yeah, like, Geta is the big one and the little one is Caracalla.

Dr G 11:08
Don’t tell Fiona too much. She hasn’t seen it yet.

Dr Rad 11:11
Oh, you’ve seen it. Okay, we’re actually going together to what we call Gold Class here, which basically is, like the super fancy cinema with, like this, you know, the recliner I

Dr G 11:21
want? I want to Colosseum popcorn bucket. That’s what I’m after. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 11:26
I cannot get it here, and it breaks my heart. I’m not going to spoil anything else, but I’m just going to say Gator is the big one, and I genuinely spent a third of a movie with

Dr Rad 11:34
my mind blown. Yeah, no, that is crazy to me. Yeah.

Dr Emma Southon 11:38
So Caracalla,, Geta, Constantine the great he is crowned in Britain. And then Britain is called like a hotbed of usurpers, because people keep rising up, taking chunks of the army and invading mainland Britain, basically. And then there’s a lot that goes on there. Britain, I think, is very often considered to be like a massive backwater that Rome didn’t care about at all. But you see hundreds of years of them desperately trying to keep Britain in the empire, because it is very important as both a space for which is agriculturally, producing enormously, and it is a place where people have loads of property and they want to keep it. And it is, you know, they don’t want to lose it as a space. And the period that Britain is the richest and when the most beautiful things are being built, and when it’s spending the most money on villas and mosaics and paintings, and is the third and fourth century, like this period that we think of as a period of decline and misery is actually a period of kind of gold and luxury in Roman Britain. So, so we have all of that, and then we have the kind of final sad decline, I suppose, of Britain as the army just keeps leaving, and then no one has any money to travel across the sea anymore. So

Dr G 12:56
this ferry system is getting very expensive. I don’t know if I can put my army on boats,

Dr Emma Southon 13:02
and their Saxons got very, very good at piracy, so it became real expensive to keep sending stuff over. And so this kind of last hurrah of Roman Britain is kind of ends with a bit of a whimper. And that famous letter from Honorius where he says, you know, we wrote to Britain and said that they’d have to deal with themselves, which may or may not be about Britain, but yeah, so it hopefully gives, like, a very different perspective on Roman Britain, and then that, it does the whole of it, from the first contact in 150 BCE all the way through to, kind of The final dregs of Roman culture in like 500 and tells you everything that happened, basically, and get a good idea of what living at any period under Roman occupation was like,

Dr G 13:53
Oh, fantastic. So I like the fact that there’s a chronology here. It’s, as you say, it’s not just a smattering of facts without any sort of contextual detail. So everybody gets to go on a journey through this whole few 100 years of Roman contact with the Britons. When you’re thinking about your research and work on this book, was there anything in particular you were surprised to learn as you went through this process,

Dr Emma Southon 14:20
the kind of uniqueness of Romano British culture, like archeologically, because the archeology of Roman Britain is not something that I had ever like looked at in huge detail, and I’d certainly never sat down and read all of the many British archeological reports I read. And because British archeological reports basically publish every archeology PhD that wants to be published. Oh, that’s on British archeology, and it’s brilliant. And as a result, you can read the tiny little niches that people do and see what they’re looking at. And the there are real uniquenesses to Roman British culture, like they didn’t. We used to call it romanizing Back in the day, but you know, they didn’t hell themselves into being as Roman as possible on a copy. But they took what they wanted and absorbed it. But so they were like, Okay, we’ll do villas, but we’re doing them in a way that we like, like, we’ll do corners. Now, really funny thing is that there was a drought 2007-2008, that, for archeologists, was brilliant, because all of the dried out fields meant that they could see with aerial photography, loads of foundations that they wouldn’t have been able to see, and so they could suddenly see loads of Roman and pre Roman archeological sites, or like sites of locations of inhabitation where that they hadn’t known existed before. And you can tell which ones are the pre Roman because they’re all round. And then the Romans come and put corners on

Dr G 15:41
all those Romans. They love their lines. They love their angles.

Dr Emma Southon 15:48
I just really amused me to imagine, like early Roman Britons being like, and they’ve got coordinates, you say,

Dr Rad 15:58
or something. There’s something there about, like, a square pig and

Dr Emma Southon 16:04
a round you get these things, these really specific villas. And like, they build Roman temples, but they build them in a really specific way that is doesn’t look like Roman temple has got like a circular bit in the middle. So they’ll be like, Okay, we’ll do like 50-50, and they were, like, all of the religious sites that appear, which don’t appear until, like, relatively late, but they appeared, but they’re like, we’ll do votive offering. We get that, but we are only going to put it in water, because water is our thing. So we’re gonna, like, make we’re gonna absorb it into our culture, rather than absorbing ourselves into you, basically, which was fascinating to me. And at no point does Britain in general seem to have, like, wholeheartedly thrown itself into you get the odd guy, like the guy who built fishborne Roman palace. But mostly people are like, yeah. Don’t know how I feel about guys

Unknown Speaker 16:58
that might work, but

Dr Emma Southon 17:02
they are still building roundhouses. And like you can see, like, they’ll get on board with things that are useful, like lamps and locks. But apart from that, they’re a bit like, there is a real uniqueness. And like face pots, as well as this thing that you only find in Roman Britain, which is urns for cremains. And they would bury the cremains in a pot with a little face on it. So they make these little face pots interesting. They are adorable. And I don’t know if they’re like the face of the person, sometimes they have a little penis on them because they’re Roman. So they’ll just have, like, a penis, actually, yeah, wouldn’t

Dr G 17:38
want to miss an opportunity,

Dr Emma Southon 17:41
yeah. But you find it in, like, you only find the Britain and, like, a little bit in northern Gaul, but they’re just like these unique aspects of Roman Britain culture that I thought were really delightful. And every single one of them that I learned about was so charming. Because, like, certainly, when I was in school, we went, I grew up near fish born Roman Palace, which is, like the Roman palace, and it is the villa that everybody talks about, and it’s ginormous. It’s like four times the size of most villas. And it is so Roman. It’s so square. It’s got, like, the atrium, it’s got the big wings that go round a bit of grass. And so for a long time, I was like, Okay, so that’s what a Roman villa is. But then when you look at what they all look like, they have a specific layout that the British designed themselves. And so it was, yeah, it was um, eye opening to see how, how the the people for 400 years, were like, okay, we can get along with some of this. But I kind of like, that’s like, feels profoundly British, yeah,

Dr G 18:42
okay, the pragmatism of like, well, you say you do it that way, but we’ve always done it like this, so I think we’re just gonna keep doing it like this. We’re gonna

Dr Emma Southon 18:53
keep we’ll incorporate the bits that we like, but otherwise we will be avoiding virtually all of it.

Dr Rad 19:03
We’ll take the luck, yeah, throw it.

Dr Emma Southon 19:06
We’ll take this, but we’re not getting on board with we’ll take the wine, but we’re not getting on board with the garam

Dr Rad 19:13
there’s got to be a new Monty Python skit in there somewhere.

Dr Emma Southon 19:16
Yeah, there’s a horrible history skit in there somewhere with this, yeah,

Dr Rad 19:21
exactly, yeah. Which is, which is obviously very apt, given that Greg Jenner was involved in me. He was,

Dr Emma Southon 19:26
and you can tell he was the historical consultant for Horrible Histories for a long time. And he wrote the, or helped write the film, The Boudicca film. And, yeah, did a was kind of locked, very responsible for a lot of horrible history stuff. So you can see that humor in there. He has a very the puns and word play. And we share a hilarity of just imagining how these things play out when people talk about and then they cleared some land. We both find it really funny to imagine, like, how does that like? There is a horrible history. Sketch of, like, somebody turning up at a guy’s door and saying, we’re going to build a wall through here. Going to build a massive wall right the way across the island, and if you could just move your sheep out. I think,

Dr Rad 20:11
I think that is something that that we also share. We delight in imagining these scenes of when people come up to the door of, you know, Cincinnatus, whilst he’s farming shirtless. And, yeah, exactly,

Dr Emma Southon 20:26
giving Cato a call, and he’s talking about with cabbages yet again.

Dr Rad 20:33
So obviously, as you sort of highlighted before, there are sometimes these sort of different ideas behind each chapter, the way you laid it out, and the sort of approach that you’ve taken, so when you sort of saw it all come together, which part ended up being your favorite?

Dr Emma Southon 20:47
That’s my favorite. I find the Julius Caesar YouTube bit really funny. So we did Julius Caesar as like a manosphere YouTube bro who is trying to pass off his ludicrous, his ludicrous turning up in Britain, fundamentally unprepared and being chased out and then constantly complaining that doesn’t matter how many hostages he takes, they just keep stabbing him in the back, trying to pass it off as a brilliant victory. And we imagined him kind of, what’s that guy that just fought?

Dr G 21:23
Oh, the guy that just fought my boxer guy,

Dr Emma Southon 21:27
yes,

Dr G 21:28
I can’t remember his name. What’s his name? But isn’t he fundamentally a YouTuber? Yeah, he is.

Dr Emma Southon 21:34
So basically, we imagined him as one of those youtubers who’s, like, always doing stunts, or like a kind of Mr. Beast type bro guy who just wants to impress everybody with, like, the massive stunts that he’s doing. And then we had, like, his description of Britain. We ended up doing it as, like a Q and A while he’s trapped in because he can’t go out because the weather’s so bad that it’s destroyed all of his ships that genuinely happened. So he got trapped on the island well, because all his ships got destroyed and stopped. So, like, he’s got nothing to do. So he can do an AMA, and he’ll describe Britain, and that’s how we’ll have, like, his description of what Britain is like. And yeah, that ended up. And when we were recording the audio book, Greg was doing voices, doing his YouTube voice. And it took a while to get through that, because it was just made us both really laughed that one. I really like that chapter. I think it’s really funny.

Dr G 22:30
That’s a good one. Julius Caesar, what a man, what a time I know, what a guy. And maybe this will help some people, you know, young people, come to a better sense of what he might have really been like. Yeah, he spends a lot of time talking about himself, that’s for sure. In

Dr Emma Southon 22:51
the third person we did, let him say, I we should have we thought they might be a bit far if we had him saying, Caesar has been to British. Yeah. Ridiculous.

Dr G 23:04
It would have served him right in some respects, but I can appreciate the change,

Dr Emma Southon 23:07
yeah, but yeah. Still, it still tickles me to imagine him on YouTube.

Dr G 23:11
Definitely. He’d have quite a following. I can only imagine

Dr Emma Southon 23:16
he really would. He’d have a podcast following, be doing massive things and filming them. Yeah, it would be ridiculous.

Dr G 23:27
So I like the fact that this is a new kind of Avenue, if you like, for your work as a way, because not only is this a co authorship situation that, but there’s also an illustrator involved, and you’ve talked a little bit about how the layout of the page is doing a lot of the work and sort of helping create the the argumentative structures and to point people in particular directions. I’m wondering, if you can take us a little bit through that process, what was it like coming together to collaborate on that visual as well as the written

Dr Emma Southon 23:59
fun? I’m not a visual thinker, so the what the page looked like was probably the bit that I was least involved in. We had kind of as we were going through. So what we did was we went through and put together, like a chronology of what we thought the chapter should be and what we wanted to include and how to break it up. And then we went through and sat on Zoom for hours, and like, chapter by chapter, we’re like, what’s the funniest way to do this chapter? And then we wrote them. So I would do the research, and then send loads of research to Greg, and he would write it and send it back to me, and then I would edit it and fiddle about with it and send it back to him. And then we would go back and forth. And then we basically sent a giant Word document, and we came would come up with kind of ideas of things that we would think were funny to for it to look like, but we basically then sent the text to Rikin and then he drew what he thought were funny, basically versions about Greg thinks of jokes really easily, like visual jokes, because of his work in TV. So sometimes he. Would put in a LIKE, Would it be funny to have like? When I found, archeologists have found skulls, cow skulls with Roman bullets in them, because the Roman army would use cows as target practice, or were just shooting cows for fun, which is bizarre. And so he was like, we have to have a picture of we have to have a picture of that. Or he would think of a caption, and then we would send that to Rikin, and then Rikin and just drew loads. And part of it is of what the page looks like is done by the editors, because it has to fit onto a certain amount of pages, essentially. And so we would lose text in order to keep a picture, or lose a picture in order to keep text. And so go went through probably 10 or 12 different iterations of what the page is going to look like. If we have this image here, the joke is before, like, the visual joke is before the paragraph, so we’re going to have to shift it around. But if we do that, then it’s going to push the visual joke onto the next page. So we’re going to have to cut out like 13 words of this paragraph so that it will all fit on this one page. And it’s a very kind of careful I have a lot more appreciation for kids books and illustrated books now, of the of how much work goes in, like page by page, to making sure that you don’t end up with a big bit of blank space. You don’t end up with a especially because we’ve got like, three layers of text. We’ve got the Greg’s text and then the interruptions. And some of them are interruptions and some of them are definitions, so where I’ve underlined something and then defined it, and keeping that all on the one page so that the jokes run in the right order, and that the paragraph doesn’t ruin the visual joke, and the visual joke doesn’t come completely out of context, is quite an undertaking, and I now have a lot of respect for children’s books editors who would happen to balance this like very visually that I did not have before. I did not appreciate them as much as I should have. So it is quite present. And sometimes I sent Rikin a lot of visual references so that everything would be as accurate as possible. So when we have at the beginning, when they you start seeing things like cosmetic mixes, cosmetic sets like appear in southern Britain. I was like, we should totally like, we’re gonna have if we can’t be having like, I don’t need. Want you to be having like, a mirror and a brush. I want it to be a Roman cosmetic set. Don’t look like what you consider to be a cosmetic set. It looks like a pestle and mortar. That’s tiny. But he was great asking for more. What does this look like? What does an actual pot look like? Like one of the original pots he drew? I was like, No, that’s a Greek pot. Sorry, I love you, but that like, there’s a difference between a Greek pot and a Roman. And you’ve drawn a Greek pot, and I need you to draw me a Roman. Like, the handles are smaller, the neck is different. And so we did go kind of back and forth, a few on that, but he really wanted to be accurate as well. So he I would send him, like, big PDFs full of images, often drawings of things from bar reports. And he would make them funny. God bless him. That

Dr G 28:17
is an art, I think, being able to take, you know, archeological drawings, and turn them into something hilarious as well as informative at the same time.

Dr Emma Southon 28:26
And we really did our best to be like, you know, what’s the difference between a Roman chariot and a like, I see any chariot like, do we know? What can we tell? How do we make them look different? What does what’s the difference between a Greek pot and a Roman so we’re not misleading people.

Dr Rad 28:44
And, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, and I think that that you’ve actually highlighted something which is also a bit of a departure for you, which is that you have most definitely been writing for adults in your previous books, all the murder, yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 28:58
all the murder, all the swearing. Oh, yeah, exactly. Development jokes, not.

Dr Rad 29:04
So what was it like having to write for children?

Dr Emma Southon 29:07
I was very lucky that I was with Greg, so he did the first draft of everything. And he obviously has been writing for kids for a very long time, and he has other kids books that he has written. This was his third or fourth one, and he did a he’s like, does he did a podcast series for kids during the lockdown called homeschool history, like he knows how to make children laugh, and he has a kid and he’s not afraid of them like I am. So he did the first pass, basically, of everything, and then I just went through and was either like, I understand the sentence, or just kind of tweet things. So I was very it felt like a kind of apprenticeship in a way of seeing Greg do his thing, and I would give him, like, quite dense 1520, page research articles that I would written up, or like lists of things. You know what? It. All the things I thought would be interesting for this chapter. And he would pare those down into 2000 words of that contained a ton of jokes for kids and some references to like, robot hamsters, or like it is a real work of genius to be able to do this and make it like, snappy and funny and yeah, and then we would just edit it down together until it got kind of littler and littler. And the only bit I wrote by myself was, which was by the time we had got, like, quite a few chapters in, was the myth buster part on the on Hadrian’s Wall. So I’d seen him write like, six or seven chapters by that point, so I felt like I could have a go. And then he edited it into something better. But it is a real it’s a real art form to talk to kids and entertain them without patronizing them, and without being like cost you the clown or something. And so it was or doing what I do to children in real life, which is to talk to them like they’re just adults, but smaller. Charles, how was your day at work? Let’s

Dr Rad 31:10
please talk about the difference between Roman and Greek pots. It’s very important that you understand the subtle differences.

Dr Emma Southon 31:15
I do as an example of how I usually am with children, I was talking to my nephew quite recently. It was his 21st birthday. And he I took him out for dinner, and we were out, and he said, Do you remember Auntie Emma when I was about six and you taught me what genocide was? I was like, yes,

Dr Rad 31:38
that is exactly the kind of thing that I would do.

Dr G 31:42
I mean, if it comes up in conversation and it’s the right time to learn the information I don’t I mean,

Dr Emma Southon 31:48
in my defense, he had, he was in a school that was very progressive, and they had decided to name all of their classes after countries, like each year group was a continent and each class was a country. The year before, he had been in hedgehog class, and this year, I asked him what class he was in, and he said, Cambodia. Oh, God. Well,

Dr Rad 32:07
that makes total sense that you would instantly go there. And so after

Dr Emma Southon 32:11
some questioning, we obviously got around to Cambodian history, fair enough. And yeah, and he considers a very formative part of his like, he’s now very politically engaged, and he’s a journalist, so I feel like I did a good job, but still,

Dr Rad 32:24
I think that’s one of the things, yeah, that is one of the things I find when you’re actually talking to a small child, because I also have a couple of nephews who are toddlers at the moment, and I find that it’s one of those things where I’ll just be talking to them normally, just as I’m like, you know, bustling around, and I’ll just say something, and then all of a sudden, as the words leave my mouth, I’m like, Oh no, that’s gonna lead to more questions. And I don’t know what their parents want me to say about this. And I literally did that the other day, where I was talking about how I was a step parent and that, and then I was like, oh no, oh no. That’s gonna lead to questions about what. What does that involve? And so I had to go through the whole thing of, look, so you know those people I call my children? Yeah, they weren’t actually ever inside of me. Oh crap, yeah. And I think, I think we ended up finishing the conversation with him, concluding that to have a step parent means that you have three mothers. And I was like, yep, you know what? Let’s just Yeah.

Dr G 33:21
We can clear that up. That’s

Dr Emma Southon 33:23
worse things that could come out. But

Dr Rad 33:26
yeah, so I am terrible at explaining things to really small

Dr Emma Southon 33:28
children. Yeah, they’re very challenging. That’s why they can see right through you. And this is the thing with writing for kids and talking to kids really like they, they know, if you’re like, trying to bullshit them, they can. They don’t have time for any kind of patronizing them or pretending like they and so you have to be enthusiastic, and you have to take them seriously. And that was which is good, because that’s what I like to do, I take everything well, that’s not true. I don’t take everything seriously, but I do take history,

Dr Rad 34:05
I think seriously underneath hilarious on the top, yeah, exactly.

Dr Emma Southon 34:08
And I wouldn’t have done a book for children if it had been anything other than what Greg does, which is to teach kids history, not just teach them history facts like or history stories, but teach them what history is and what historians do, and that history is largely arguing and interpretation. It’s not just like a static series of stories or facts or myths. It is a kind of constantly evolving discipline, and he takes that very seriously indeed. And then does robot hamster jokes.

Dr G 34:50
This actually leads me into something that I did want to ask you about, because this book has things like the the chaos ratings in it, as you as you go through. True. And, you know, this is obviously a really great mechanism, I think, for giving us sort of a little bit of a foreshadowing of what is to come or indicating just how complex the thing that is about to be discussed is going to be. And I’m wondering about how, like, a feature like that may have evolved during the discussion process.

Dr Rad 35:18
Yeah, because that’s the historic graphical bit, I think,

Dr Emma Southon 35:21
yeah, because this is so Greg’s original like pitch for this was that he will be the guy who is living through it, essentially, like he’s in present tense, and he is living through it. And sometimes he you never know what’s coming next. And sometimes what comes next is really chaotic, and like in the moment, you have no clue what’s happening, and the historian can come in and say, Oh, x, y, z is what is occurring. But like, so you have this period at the end, which is, I think, when the chaos meter goes to totally chaotic, when Britain is like in three separate empires, technically, in about a 20 year period. So the Gallic Empire splits away from the Roman Empire in the third century, and then Aurelian brings it back in, and then it splits off into a tiny British Empire, which consists of Britain.

Dr G 36:12
We’re all by ourselves,

Dr Emma Southon 36:14
yeah, for like 10 years, it’s the British Empire, and then it’s back into the Roman Empire again. And so we had that as a news reader, who’s, like, constantly being like, and then this guy’s been murdered, and then this guy’s been murdered, there’s constantly coins like, appearing, which, and who the hell is this guy? And so his feeling is that it like, sometimes it’s going to feel like you don’t know what’s going to happen, like, who you can who’s going to be the Emperor when you wake up tomorrow, who? What Empire Am I in when I wake up tomorrow? Like sometimes when you’re living day to day, it feels totally chaotic and like you don’t know how anything is going to survive, but in you can be, then be a historian, and look back and say, Ah, the forces, an Aurelian is going to come and save everybody, and it’s all going to be okay. Don’t worry, guys. Yeah. And so the chaos meter is basically how the person at the time would be feeling if they were living through this. Are they feeling like they’re in a good, chill, useful time where everything is delightful and it’s the end of history, or are they living in interesting historical times and they feel like they don’t know what their world is going to look like tomorrow, and they’re burying their gold because they’re worried that someone’s going to come and

Dr G 37:26
rob them. Fair enough,

Dr Rad 37:28
I was really impressed by all those additional elements, because, as I say, I think that’s where the historiography comes in, with the accuracy alerts the myth bust, seeing, you know, it was so layered, as you say, I was like, Whoa, there’s like, so much historiography going on on this page, and it’s a children’s book. And I think, without a doubt, this isn’t a question. I’m just saying this, without a doubt, my favorite part was the historian head to head over Buddha cup, mostly because of the illustration of you and Greg fighting each other with books.

Dr Emma Southon 37:56
Yeah, a genuinely delightful Yeah. And, you know, and that is an argument that, for some reason, I tried to keep trying to avoid Boudicca, but you come back to her constantly. I know I’ve accidentally written two books that she’s in, and like there are so many different interpretations of her and so many like that. You know you can talk to French archeologists who argue that she never existed. You can talk to like, really intense patriots who are like she was a woman, and this and like the Tacitus story, is exactly what happened to her, and that is precisely it I kind of like to sit in the middle. And I think that Tacitus is telling a very specific, fictionalized mythic story about her, and that it best, almost no resemblance to the Dio version of her, that these are, you know, she’s a real woman told as a literary device. And but then you have, you know, there’s the Amanda Scott who is like, no, she was Welsh. And Boudicca actually means vodaker, and it means victory. And like there’s so many different ways of understanding her and of of interpreting her, but all we have, really is two guys who know something about her and are writing about her for a very specific political audience, and that kind of arguing about her, that’s what history is, especially ancient history. And you know this, when you’re dealing with Roman texts and you’ve got nothing else to where you’ve got nothing else to work with, it’s just arguing over two guys and how much you want to believe those two guys were telling the truth, and if they were both telling the truth, then why their story is so different?

Dr Rad 39:44
Yeah, look as two people who base their entire podcast basically on Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus for a long time, and we generally do, often get to the point where I end up sort of saying at the end of the episode, so wait, maybe none of this ever actually happened. And Peta’s like, whoa, whoa.

Dr G 39:59
I mean, something happened, like, have we

Dr Rad 40:04
just proven that none of this ever happened?

Dr Emma Southon 40:06
Rome appeared fully formed, 27 BCE with Augustine

Dr G 40:14
before that. We can’t possibly know anything.

Dr Rad 40:20
You know, look, I think it’s, it is amazing how much you guys have been able to show, as you say, what history actually is, which is all these different perspectives, all this problematic evidence. It is amazing that you have been able to delve into all of these issues and cover the entire history of Britain all in one book.

Dr Emma Southon 40:36
Yeah, amazing in like 25,000 words. It’s, yeah,

Dr Rad 40:39
I might have something to learn. So tell us, if people are really keen to dive right in, and we mean physically dive in, are there any places in Britain that you would recommend going?

Dr Emma Southon 40:52
So there are a bunch of villas. So I honestly do think that fishborne is brilliant. It is very much a it’s like an early Roman villa. It’s in Sussex, and it is, it’s like the most Roman of all the Roman villas, but it is amazing, and it is like a genuine delight to see chedworth is also great. And that’s much more of a what’s the word, like British one? But, yeah, it’s a corridor, but it’s also it has great like mosaics, and it’s a great site to go to. The British Museum has all the cool stuff. So, you know, you can’t say no to the British Museum, really, it does have all the best stuff. But the great thing about Britain is you can come one day, me and my husband say we’re going to get an English Heritage membership and just spend a year like driving around Britain looking all the English Heritage stuff, because there’s so much in the way of in every town, there’s something almost every town, there’s something that is Roman, and then, like, my dad lives in Dover, and they have a fort That’s under a car park that you can go to

Dr G 42:04
classic, come to our car park fort, yeah, and

Dr Emma Southon 42:08
then and you can go to Dover.

And Dover Castle has a Roman lighthouse, so it’s still standing. Yes, it’s like next to a 12th century church, but it’s this Roman lighthouse that you can go to and virtually anywhere that you go. And quite often, because we wanted to do a whole chapter on the rediscovery of Roman Britain, because Roman Britain was not appreciated, particularly until, like, the 18th century, when they redug up bath in order to make it kind of Spa, Georgian spa destination. And we discovered all of the stuff in Bath, and all of the stuff there, you can see the Roman stuff, but a lot of it is still buried. And a lot of the stuff that they say is Roman is actually Victorian, but it’s like pseudo neoclassical. It’s still gorgeous. It’s worth going to but and just be aware that it’s not all that, but so much of it was not appreciated. And you get all of these stories of like 17th century, 16th century farmers digging up mosaics and then just chucking them in the bin. Oh, no. Ooh. There was one story that was like from 1840 something of a farmer plowing up a mosaic and then load it being in the papers, and loads of people coming to see them, and then everyone just taking some of it home. And it kind of makes you feel a bit sick,

Dr Rad 43:36
but, and this is my charm, how much stuff I mean when you combine that with all the stories of early archeologists at places like Pompeii and Herculaneum, you know, being like, that’s not important, tossing it out. Give me the good stuff. Just like, Oh my god. How much of this stuff that we complain we don’t have enough of has actually ended up in the bin. But

Dr Emma Southon 43:55
since then, it’s got a bit better. But now virtually every town in Britain has something and it will have a mosaic or something cool and Roman in their like Village Museum, and which is kind of delightful to see how much of it there is just everywhere, and not just the monumental stuff that you get if you go like, there’s no arches, there’s no big buildings, particularly, there’s just lots of little things. I will do one shout out for the Mithraeum in London, actually, if you’re in London, which is in the bottom of the Bloomberg building, but they have a load of they have the oldest writing tablets that have been found in Western Europe, which are from like 100 CE, that were all found in the Thames, and they’re all Business Tablets, so they’re well, boring, but they’re delightful to see. But then what they’ve done with the Mithraeum,with these kind of light show and holograms and this recreation of mithraic worship is really cool to see. Sounds like a delight. Yeah?

Dr Rad 44:58
Indeed. Yeah. I. Never been, actually, even though I’ve been to London several times, I didn’t know was there the last time I

Dr Emma Southon 45:05
was, yeah, you have to, like, go to the business districts and then, like, go into the bottom of a building that really feels like you shouldn’t be in

Unknown Speaker 45:13
this all Bloomberg cannon. But, yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 45:15
but it’s freedom, and it is like an hour, and you get to see, and they’ve got these kind of displays of all of the stuff that they found. Their archeological reports are great as well, actually. But yeah, there’s just so much on the army. You can go up and see all the forts in the north, and you can go and see Hadrian’s Wall and walk along it. And you can go to Vindolanda, although the good tablets are in the British Museum.

Dr G 45:39
Fair warning, fair warning. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 45:41
they do have lots

Dr Rad 45:42
Start at the British Museum, then work your way up.

Dr Emma Southon 45:44
Yeah, pretty much start the bottom, work your way up, drive around. There is a great book, actually, about driving around Roman Britain, by Charlotte Higgins, oh, okay, and she drove around a few years old now, she drove around Britain and went to loads and loads of different Roman sites, and, like really explored the impact that Rome left on on the British landscape that you can still see. So I would recommend that

Dr G 46:10
fantastic. All right. Well, to wrap this up, because this has been a fabulous conversation, as always, we hear that there might be exciting new, upcoming projects in your life

Dr Emma Southon 46:22
there are, and

Dr G 46:23
we’re wondering, if you can tell us hints and tips I can.

Dr Emma Southon 46:26
So the book that I’m writing at the moment is very definitely for adults, and is a kind of big cultural history of slavery in the Roman Empire and all of the ways that slavery was embedded into the Empire, and supported it and made it possible for the Empire to exist, basically, which I’m trying not to make depressing, largely by focusing on people, and as many people as I can that to experience slavery in one day or one way or another, which is everybody in the empire, like there is not one single person in the whole Roman Empire who experienced a day without coming into contact with slavery in some way, either by owning them, being one or dealing with an enslaved person. So that’s the one I’m writing at the moment. And then I have a two book deal now, so there’s minimum of two books coming. So the next one after that is going to be about the Palatine and a history of the Palatine complex, through the emperors who lived there, how it grew, the what was there? What’s going on? Who are these guys? It takes up the takes of, like, two miles of Rome. It takes up like a nearly a quarter of the city in its original walls. It’s enormous, and it’s full of people, and yeah, what’s going on up there, and how it changes, and everybody from the guy who is in charge of import taxes from Alexandria to the guy whose job is to be a sexy human pet.

Dr Rad 48:06
Sounds fascinating. You

Dr G 48:09
can go up that hill, but you don’t know what anybody will ask you to do once you get to the top of the

Dr Emma Southon 48:14
map. You do not and it could be very boring, or it’s almost only gonna be very boring, but it might also be very weird,

Dr G 48:22
amazing. Both of those projects actually sound really incredible and important, actually, because I think for readers who are interested in Rome but haven’t had the opportunity to really study it in depth, the extent to which slavery shapes Rome and how it operates is is massive. And yeah, it needs to be better understood. I think, yeah. And

Dr Emma Southon 48:44
when I talk to people, and I tell people who are not Roman historians that this is what I’m doing 99% of the time, the response is, Oh, I hear slavery in Rome was actually fine, like everybody was freed, and it was basically like being a serf, and you have to be like, no,

Dr G 49:04
actually pretty terrible.

Dr Rad 49:07
Just generally not a good idea. It

Dr Emma Southon 49:09
is still very much slavery. So, yeah,

Dr G 49:12
like, just

Dr Rad 49:14
because it’s better than some forms of Greek slavery, does it mean that people are like, Oh, that’s totally cool. I’ll totally do

Dr Emma Southon 49:21
Yeah. Just because it doesn’t have a philosophy behind it doesn’t mean that it isn’t still slavery, yeah, yeah. So part of it is going to be overcoming the fact that people think that Roman slavery is not really slavery, or they don’t think it’s chattel slavery, or, yeah, or they’re just really focused on one specific form of domestic slavery like that. You are the secretary of Cicero, and therefore you have a certain amount of power, forgetting all of the people in the fields and the mines and their Fullers and the people doing the monstrous jobs that no one will take, you know is being paid to do. They’re doing it forever.

Dr Rad 49:59
Yeah, you gotta think of that opening of Spartacus, because as much as there is zero evidence that that’s what Spartacus originally did, the film does show him working in pretty terrible job. At first, there’s

Dr Emma Southon 50:13
a lot of people talking about like mining and field work and chain gangs and, you know, and how terrible it was, but that’s the next project, which it not forget. Are

Dr Rad 50:25
you sure? I don’t know. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 50:27
I don’t know. Maybe, all right, yeah, just really depressed some children, yeah.

Dr Rad 50:32
Well, that is very exciting. We will be looking forward to hopefully chatting to you again when that is finished. But thank you so much for talking to us today. As usual, we have, not only did we learn a lot from the book, but we learned a lot about the process of producing a book like this. And I definitely would encourage actually adults to read it as well as get it for your kids, because I think you’ll find it’s a genuinely delightful read. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 50:59
I think that everybody will learn a lot from it. There are not that many books on Roman Britain for adults or for anybody that do a big tell you all about it, and this is a good starting point, I think.

Dr G 51:15
Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for telling us more about this book. So for people who are listening at home or wherever you are out and about, the book is called totally chaotic history. Roman Britain gets rowdy with an exclamation mark. So get the excitement pumping. Get into some historiography. Go and enjoy the whole swath of Roman British history. Yeah,

Dr Rad 51:39
and it is available in e book as well as print and audio book from the sounds of it. Yeah,

Dr Emma Southon 51:43
my first audio book reading experience, I do a voice. I do a good couple of amusing voices. So if you want to hear me do my first full range of voice acting,

Dr Rad 51:55
how exciting? Yeah, I look forward to hearing what you think Agrippina the younger sounds, all right. Well, thank you so much, and we will definitely be talking to you hopefully shortly about thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show [email protected] Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, just like this one. However, if you lost all your money betting on a chariot race, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In 398 BCE, the Romans were still enmeshed in their siege at Veii. Whilst the Romans waited, worrying portents started to appear. What did they all mean?

Episode 156 – Kidnapped!

The most concerning portent was a sudden increase in the levels of the lake in the Alban Woods. It was positively spooky. An embassy was despatched to visit the Delphic Oracle so that the mystery could be unravelled.

Lake Albano, courtesy of Istituto Nazionale di Geofisica e Vulconologia.

Whilst the ambassadors were on the road, some casual conversation between enemies led to a revelation.  An old man from Veii seemed to have the answers the Romans needed, and unfortunately this led to him being kidnapped and interrogated. How else could the Romans get the information? They want the truth!

The old man and the Oracle both indicated that the Romans needed to figure out a way to draw off the water from the lake. Then, and only then, Veii would fall, and the Romans would be victorious.

Sounds simple! Just make the water go away, Rome.

Things to listen out for:

• LOTS of patricians in power
• Dangerous shortages of Etruscan soothsayers
• Sneaky Roman youths
• Road trips!
• An owl suddenly covering for Igor

Our Players for 398 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401
• M. Valerius M. f. M. n. Lactucinus Maximus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 395
• M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401, 394, 386, 384, 381
• L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409. Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 405, 397, 295, 394. 391
• Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. 402, 395, 390, 388, 386
• Q. Sulpicius Ser. f. Se. n. Camerinus Cornutus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 402

Legates, Ambassadors

• (Cn. Cornelius) Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 404, 401
• (P.) Licinius (Calvus Esquilinus) Mil. Tr. c.p. 400, 396
• (L.) Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398

OR

• (C.) Valerius Potitus (Volusus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c.p. 415, 404
• (K.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 410, 404, 401, 395, 309?

OR

• (Num.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, 5.14-15.
• Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus 12.10-33; Cicero, On Divination, 1.44; Diodorus Siculus, 14.82; Plutarch, Life of Camillus 2.3-4.4.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 
• Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
• Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.
• Young, J. 1875. ‘The Alban Lake’ The Athenaeum no. 2505, pp 575-576.

Sound Credits

Our music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians I am Dr G, and I am Dr rad, and we are tracing Rome’s history from the foundation of the city. And in this episode, we’re going to be looking at 398 BCE, so we’re right in the early period of the fourth century

Dr Rad 1:18
that we are Dr G. But before we dive into 398 Can we get a quick recap on what happened in 399

Dr G 1:24
It was either a hot summer, a severe snowstorm, or both. Well, I

Dr Rad 1:29
think the snowstorm actually happened in 400

Dr G 1:32
Well, so you say.

Dr Rad 1:34
So I say indeed, although Wait, how do Italian winters work? Wait, when is a winter? Oh, actually, that would make sense. It would span two years. Sorry, being in the southern hemisphere, it took me a moment to figure

Dr G 1:46
that out, yes. And the thing is that the source material doesn’t kind of line up in any other way. So, like that fragment can’t come in earlier than what it already did, or at least not as far as I can tell. So I think there are ways in which Livy and Dionysius might be a little bit out of sync with each other, and that’s fine, because there is that sort of prerogative around the 10 year siege. So we’re in this period of time where we know that Rome is and the writers of Rome are making up some of the time because they want this siege of a to take 10 years, just like the Trojan Well, yeah, they want to have this beautiful mirror to the Trojan War. So things are a little bit haphazard. Things are a little bit out of sync. And even when we look at our comparative source material from somebody like Diodorus Siculus, they’re out by a couple of years every time,

Dr Rad 2:38
exactly. And so, as a result of all this terrible weather, the Romans had to throw a gigantic party for themselves and for the gods. Most importantly, and the patricians decided to blame it all on the fact that there were so many plebeians elected to serve as magistracies.

Dr G 2:55
I mean, where else would terrible weather come from? Naturally? So, yeah. So this means that we head into 398 with the pretty traditional patrician chip on the shoulder about plebeians and what’s going on there. And I guess we’re gonna see how that plays out for them. Exactly.

Dr Rad 3:16
All right. Dr, G, let’s do it 398 BC, you

Dr G 3:37
so this year we have military tributes with consular power. It has been foreshadowed, and now we’re here.

Dr Rad 3:44
And the names, Dr, G, such sweet music to my ears, because they’re so familiar.

Dr G 3:50
Oh well, some of them, at the very least, exactly, Lucius, Valerius, Potitus, yeah, yeah, you’ve heard of him before. It sounds familiar. Is familiar previously, Military Tribune in 414, 406, 403 and 401

Dr Rad 4:04
It’s nice to have an experienced hand back at the wheel, all

Dr G 4:08
hands on deck, especially potituses. We also have Marcus Valerius Lactucinus, Maximus. Lactucinus

Dr Rad 4:19
of all sounds like a disease that you get when there’s too much pollen around. Well,

Dr G 4:23
interestingly, I

Dr Rad 4:24
did look this up because, yay. Wait, did have to do with milk? Oh, no,

Dr G 4:29
it has to do with lettuce, as in salad leaves.

Dr Rad 4:34
So the most insane thing I’ve ever heard. Well, I don’t

Dr G 4:38
know. Is it any worse than Cicero, the chickpea. So the early Republican period, this name Lactocinus, or Lactucinus, if we go with a really hard seat, is related to, etymologically, the word for lettuce.

Dr Rad 4:55
He should marry his daughter to someone in the Cicero family so that they can have a salad. They could make salad together. Oh, yeah.

Dr G 5:02
So yeah, this seems to be one of the things. They’re not that common. A few of them crop up in this century, and we’re going to see one later on as well. But yeah, pretty rare. This guy is a new kid to the block. Never been a military Tribune before, so he must be pretty excited. This

Dr Rad 5:20
also doesn’t really add up with what they said in the previous year, which is that they were putting their very best candidates out. I mean, how can this guy be the best candidate who’s never held the office before? I don’t

Dr G 5:30
think you understand how best works from a patrician perspective.

Dr Rad 5:34
I know I’m just putting it out. I’m switching perspectives from all over the place. Sometimes I’m plebeian and sometimes I’m patrician. Just when you think I’m gonna Zig. I zag.

Dr G 5:42
think he was born that way, and that’s what makes him great. Yeah, we also have Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr Rad 5:50
Come on, the Furii.

Dr G 5:54
of the story. He emerges. He’s here previously, military Tribune in 401, so quite recently, yeah, Andy’s Beau and Lucius furious. Medullinus

Dr Rad 6:06
definitely recognize this name, yeah. So

Dr G 6:09
a couple of Furii’s in this gang. Well, of course. I

Dr Rad 6:12
mean, if you’re putting forward your best, you’re putting forward the Furii, obviously, of course. I mean, I’m disappointed that none of them are Spurius Furius, but still,

Dr G 6:19
that’s true, although Camillus is the grandson of a Spurius Furius, that’s as good as it gets. So Lucius Furius Medullinus was previously consul in 413, and 409 so way more illustrious than the military Tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 6:38
Seems so long ago that we talked about consul.

Dr G 6:40
Yeah, it’s been a hot minute,

and he was also a military Tribune with consular power in 407 and 405 so definitely experienced. Well, experienced. Yeah. Next we have Quintus, Servilius Fidenas, ah, yes, previously, military tribune in 402 and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus, also military Tribune with consular power in 402

Dr Rad 7:10
the old gang is back together. Yeah,

Dr G 7:13
the boys are back now. I also have the names of some ambassadors or legates, or legates, people who hold some minor but significant positions enough that it gets named in the year. We know who they are, apparently, almost somewhat kind of,

Dr Rad 7:35
we

Dr G 7:36
have parts of their names. I have a lot of oars in this list. Yes, me too. Yeah. So we’ve got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now, this guy, fabulous patrician background, previously military Tribune in 406, 404 and 401 wow. Yeah, he’s getting around. But now he’s been, he’s been given some sort of task this year, we’ll find out what it is.

Maybe the taskmaster shall tell you, Ambassador,

Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus. Question mark, not a patrician.

Dr Rad 8:10
No, he’s a guy. He’s the first one, you know, the

Dr G 8:14
only one, according to Livy, apparently, in 400

Dr Rad 8:16
exactly the inoffensive one. Oh, the palatable How could you forget someone as beige as him, the palatable plebeian? Exactly,

Dr G 8:27
he opened the door for the radicals of the following year, who

Dr Rad 8:31
did nothing and yet still got blamed for everything.

Dr G 8:34
I thought their military victories were quite significant, really. No, I know, but that’s what I mean.

Dr Rad 8:37
Like, they did nothing wrong, but they still got blamed for everything. Disaster.

Dr G 8:42
Yeah. So they are joined by these two guys. Are joined by a Lucius, Valerius Potitus, same guy as above. Apparently, you could be a military Tribune with Constable of power and be an ambassador, slash leggett, with your patrician. You can be anything. I mean, we could hire somebody else for the job, but I’ve just decided to hire myself.

Dr Rad 9:01
I just so qualified.

Dr G 9:03
I’ve looked at the candidates, and I’ve decided I should be the boss. I

Dr Rad 9:06
am clearly the man for the job, indeed. And that job, and that job, in fact,

Dr G 9:11
all the jobs, exactly. And that’s how we get kings. Everybody. Be careful. Now we’re not entirely certain that this is set in stone. This is one of the ‘ors’. So it’s either this Valerius Potitus, already in a role, or Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusu, who must be related. There’s a lot of similar names here, so Gaius Valerius Potitus, maybe instead of Lucius Valerius potitus, we’ll see now Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus was previously consul in 410 as I’m sure you recall, oh, naturally I never forget. And previously military Tribune with consular power in 415 and 404, some families are really dominating the upper echelons of power. Here they really are. Now we also. Have another or situation. So it could be the case that we have Kaeso,Fabius Ambustus as our last ambassador, legate, or Numerus Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 10:12
the first one sounds for more familiar to me.

Dr G 10:15
The first one is more familiar because they’ve definitely had more roles previously, military Tribune in 410 404 and 401 whereas numerous has only been a military Tribune with consular power once in 406 but it’s anybody’s guess, some of the names are missing. And when we are missing the prey gnome and the first name, and we’ve only got the gens, and then the branch of the gens, it really does put us at a bit of a loss as to who we’re talking about.

Dr Rad 10:48
We’re like Roman names. They’re

Dr G 10:50
from a family, yeah.

Dr Rad 10:52
All right. Dr, G, are you ready for some drama? I am ready. Okay, so as we’ve noted, it’s an oil patrician lineup. And Livy s obviously very into this, because he does actually detail exactly how many times these guys have held the position before, etc, etc. So he wants you to know these guys are elite now. They do not do anything particularly significant at they itself. The siege continues. Well, there’s a surprise, yeah, there’s just some minor pillaging that goes on, you know, just to keep them on their toes. However, it’s time to take out the legs from this campaign. And by that, I mean, you’ve got to get rid of those pesky allies that keep trying to pin Rome between they and themselves, it’s time to take out the Falerii once and for all, exactly, and also, the Capenates hate those guys absolutely. So Potitus is the one who is picked to go against the Falerii the people of Falerii and Camillus is sent against the Capenates. Now I said that dramatically, because Camillus is a figure of note in Roman history. He is now against these enemies. They were able to capture lots and lots of booty, and then they destroyed anything that they didn’t take.

Dr G 12:20
Oh, okay, wow. Okay, yep.

Dr Rad 12:23
Annoyingly, this also was a year where there were lots of portents that were being reported. Dr, G, ah, yes. Now, at first, when they started being reported, it was just one person who saw something weird, and people were like, Hmm, maybe Bob’s gone crazy.

Dr G 12:41
What are you been drinking? Bob, yeah,

Dr Rad 12:43
I don’t think I believe you, but as time went on and more and more were being reported, it started to become concerning, especially because this war with they meant Rome was plung out of Etruscan soothsayers.

Dr G 13:00
Oh, no. I hate it when that happens. But then

Dr Rad 13:04
there was a portent that lots of people saw, and it got everyone really freaked out. Are you ready to hear? What kind of twisted thing would make them think that the world was about to end? I

Dr G 13:16
am interested to hear, particularly since I have some source material this year, so I’m wondering the extent to which our sources are going to agree or disagree on the fantastic things you’re about to tell me, look,

Dr Rad 13:27
it’s a pretty big deal, so I think they are going to line up, but nonetheless, strap yourself in, just in case. Don’t you falling off that chair the lake in the Alban woods, even though there had been no rain or any other sort of water source, suddenly got higher. Yep, there was more water in it, and nobody knew how.

Dr G 13:50
Oh, that’s weird.

Dr Rad 13:53
It was really, I know they were like, where’s the magician? How did they do that? They can’t explain it. And so they decide to send off representatives to the Delphic Oracle. That is a long way from home, it is, and this is where all our legates and ambassadors come in, yeah, however, road trip, yeah, exactly. Let’s get this elite band on the road show some people what we’ve got. However, whilst they’re off checking out the Delphic Oracle, as you say, it’s not close. So it’s happened that an old man of they just wandered out and chipped in his two cents about what this all meant. Now, apparently this was possible, because obviously the Siege has been going on for a number of years. At this point in time, and between the two warring armies, when they weren’t trading insults and having staring contests with each other, they were apparently chatting sometimes.

Dr G 14:54
Oh well, yeah, fair enough. I mean, a siege is a siege. You gotta get bored like bro. What’s happening on your. A third of the world. Yeah.

Dr Rad 15:01
Now I imagine that the way he said this, he didn’t just wander out and sort of casually throw it out there, like, oh, you worried about the lake. Here’s what it means. I think it was very much like the scene in the Harry Potter movies where Emma Thompson’s Professor character, the one who’s like the divination teacher, goes all weird, and, like, goes into a trance, and very clearly, is speaking for somebody else, like on behalf of somebody else, yeah, because I’m saying this, because Livy says he said it in a prophetic strain. Oh, okay, so I’m imagining something quite dramatic.

Dr G 15:38
Yeah, everyone’s like, wait a minute, that guy’s doing prophecy. Yeah, now,

Dr Rad 15:41
see it gets even more dramatic than more water, where no more water should be. What he says is that the Romans would never be able to capture they, whilst the water level remained high, once the water had been drawn off, that was their moment to seize. They once and for all. How strange I know the Romans were like, Yeah, okay, old dude, clearly you’re just trying to psych us out and make us like, even more worried about the lake getting higher. Mysteriously, lies, lies, I say exactly however. They can’t help but keep talking about it amongst themselves. It’s quite the topic of hot gossip. Dr, G, well, I

Dr G 16:26
mean, they’ve just had a really weird experience with like, strange weather events and their first lexternium, all of this sort of stuff. So maybe they’re in they’re in the mood for thinking about, well, what if, yeah.

Dr Rad 16:42
So the Romans started to just like, chat to some of the locals and ask, like, so who was that guy who, like, made that random comment that we’re not thinking about at all. And this, again, just shows how the theaters lasted so long that the Romans and the people they’re totally talking to each other, the Romans discover by talking to the locals that the guy was a genuine, legit soothsayer.

Dr G 17:10
No regular party tricks, but like No, no fundamentally trained in the arts of divination, exactly, trust and style, totally,

Dr Rad 17:18
totally legit. Could not be more above board. So the Roman who’d taken it upon himself, this random Roman guy to chat to the locals, asked if the old guy would come and meet with him, because he’s super, super concerned about this portent. So the Roman, apparently, is quite the charmer. He manages to put the old man at ease when he comes to the meeting. And he also very subtly, starts just walking him away from any of his own folk, walking him well away from his own group. Uh oh. He also made sure that he had no weapons on him when this happened, like the old man had no weapons, and then in plain sight of everyone, he abducts him. I know

Dr G 18:11
people on the walls are vaping like, hey, yeah.

Dr Rad 18:15
Now this is interesting, because apparently not all the sources that tell this story make it an old man and like a younger Roman soldier. And it might have been something that was added to sort of foreshadow that Veii was old and faltering and Rome was young and hot fresh.

Dr G 18:33
Well, look, I mean, it sounds like a reasonable way to approach it. There are some differences, definitely between the account that you’ve just provided from Livy, oh,

Dr Rad 18:43
and it’s not over yet,

Dr G 18:45
and the source material that I have prepared.

Dr Rad 18:47
Okay, which is good. This is good, all right. Now, crazily, the Etruscans cause a huge fuss about this, this kidnap in broad daylight, but the rumors are like, yeah, no, sorry. It doesn’t really matter how much you jump up and down. We’re keeping him. We like him. He’s ours now. Exactly he’s ours now. So they take the old guy to the general, and the general says, What am I going to do with this guy? Send him to the Senate. So he goes off to Rome itself, and the Senate interrogate him intently. They get out the spotlight. They put him in a dark room. They all crowd around him menacingly. There’s a bad cop, good cop, exactly, slapping him around. And they’re like, tell us about the Alban Lake prophecy. Tell us more. The Old Man points out that the gods must have been angry at the people of they to have sent him such a message at such a time, so that the Romans obviously overheard the key to defeating their enemy. I mean, it seems a bit crazy, because it’s telling them exactly what they need to do in order to defeat they they just need to drain the lake. Somehow,

Dr G 19:50
it does seem a bit strange, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Dr Rad 19:54
Now, apparently there was actually a record of this on the Etruscan side of things, so it was written down. Somewhere in Etruscan law. So I guess something like their version of the sibylline books that when the Alban water overflowed, if the Romans could draw it off, they would indeed defeat they but the gods would be by their side until that exact moment the old man then, apparently said, Oh, you’re worried about draining it. Well, this is how you drain it. It’s being very helpful. Wait

Dr G 20:27
a minute,

Dr Rad 20:28
I know inside of his own abduction, he’s super, super helpful.

Dr G 20:33
Yeah, look, I mean, I suppose he has been tortured because he’s now giving up everything he

Dr Rad 20:37
really is. So the senators are like, Really, okay, but they’re not sure if they can trust him, because, after all, he is from the enemy, and it’s super weird that he’s telling them everything with seemingly very little pressure. So they decide that they want to wait and hear what the Delphic Oracle says, because, of course, they’ve got their ambassadors of checking that out. All right, okay. Now, unfortunately, the Group of Ambassadors must have been having a fabulous time, because they did not return very quickly. Well,

Dr G 21:10
I mean, it’s not close. Delphi is not near Italy, really. I mean, think about, how are they going to get there? They either have to go over the Apennines and then they’ve got to take a ship, and then they’ve got to cut across some land, and then they’ve got to get to Delphi, and then they’ve got to do the whole trip in reverse, or they sail around. They go in the opposite direction. In Italy, they head towards Ostia, and then they sail all the way around the foot, all the way around and across to Greece, to Delphi and then all the way back. This is not, it’s not a pleasure jaunt that’s going to take, you know, a couple of weeks. It’s going to take a while.

Dr Rad 21:49
Excuses, excuses, Dr G, but because they’re not back in time, it means that they can’t actually drain the Alvin lake in this year, and therefore they just have to hold on a little bit longer, hold on for one more day,

Dr G 22:04
looking at the lake being like, Excuse me, still high. Yeah. Problems.

Dr Rad 22:10
Now this is all very confusing, because the final thing I’m going to just mention is that I don’t understand what the Alban lake would have to do with they because it’s nowhere near they it’s in completely the other direction. Excuse me, yeah, it’s not near ve at all. And so it’s really strange that this is mentioned in connection with this story. And even stranger, dr, G, I have archeological proof that something did go down with the Alban Lake.

Dr G 22:41
Oh, yes, likewise, yeah, there are some odd things with the Alban lake. So would now be a good time to mention some different source material into these.

Dr Rad 22:53
Feel free.

Dr G 22:54
Hmm, well, well, well, I have a few sources. Dionysus of Halicarnassus is first. Then we’ve got a bit from Plutarch, and then we also have a bit from Cicero. My

Dr Rad 23:07
goodness, diversity,

Dr G 23:09
you know, find my sources where I can Dionysus of Halicarnassus being back is great, to be honest. And I enjoy the fact that that this is one of these moments where there’s an A new parallel to be drawn with Livy and some distinctions to be made. So he opens this situation talking about the rising of the Dog Star. So this is Sirius, the brightest star in the in the sky, and talks about how that period of the rising of the Dog Star is related to a whole bunch of water events where lakes tend to fail and rivers tend to dry up, but the Nile, as an exception, has its inundation. So he sets up this whole sort of like water and the time of the stars. And then he talks about the Alban mount. Now, the Alban mount and the associated lake are in that Castelli Romani region to the south east of Rome, and really importantly, tie into the foundation story of Rome. So it is weird that we have this coming out in an Etruscan soothsaying situation, because it doesn’t tend to have a traditional association with the Etruscans, at least as far as we’re aware. Nevertheless, we’re talking about a similar region, like they and Rome are very close to each other. This is true, and while Rome would be on the way to the album mount. If you were from ve it’s still not that far, really. So they’re in the same region, essentially. One of the odd things that Dionysius tells us is that there had not been rain or snowstorms that could account for what happens with the lake. Which is weird, because previously, in the last year that just passed, we did have the unprecedented almost seven foot snowstorm in Rome. And I’m like, Are you sure you didn’t have any snow recently? Because I might explain it. I feel like you guys just talked about, like, the most outlandish and unheard of before or after snowstorm in Rome’s history.

Dr Rad 25:26
They have every right to be freaked out by this mysterious water that came from nowhere.

Dr G 25:30
Where did the water come from? I’m so confused. It’s not

Dr Rad 25:34
like we just had all this snow and then a really, really hot summer that melted it all. No

Dr G 25:38
idea. I’m perplexed, a mystery. I am purplex The gods. And the other thing to keep in mind about the Alban mount is it is a volcanic lake, so it’s, Oh, I did not know that, yeah. So it may be fed by some spring systems, but the rock itself underneath it is going to be pretty porous. So you’re not expecting the lake to ever rise a lot, it would have it would take an all enormous amount of water to raise the lake

Dr Rad 26:06
so scary. Dr, G, yeah,

Dr G 26:09
because it’s constantly sort of like slowly dissipating out through the mountain and down out into other regions. And that’s what makes the water so delicious, and it’s what makes it so good for growing grapes and things like that. The wine from that region is really well known. So all of these things, you’re like, Okay, well, it is weird that the lake has raised so significantly, although within the context of a snowstorm, maybe not so much, but leaving those

Dr Rad 26:37
crucial leave your logic at the door, please. I

Dr G 26:40
feel like Dionysius didn’t read back his previous draft. He just kept going forward. He sits down for a new day, and he’s like to to whoever he’s dictating this to, because we don’t think he put pen to paper himself. You know. He’s not like, you know, just give me the heads up on what just happened. And he’s like, nope, starting fresh. All right, so 398, there has been no snow. Anyway. This whole situation with the lake is so significant because it floods. So it raises above all of its conceivable threshold limits, and it starts to flood places, and the water runs down out of the Alban mount into the surrounding plains. Now this is a problem for Rome, because Rome is in the surrounding plains. Yeah, disaster. Also. There’s plenty of other towns along the way. So that’s a problem for everybody.

Dr Rad 27:34
You know. You think they just say that, you know that it flooded. It flooded, yeah? Rather than saying, Oh, my God, there’s so much water,

Dr G 27:44
where will it go? It goes out of the lake and down the mountain, that’s where it goes, that pallet makes sense to me. So I think it’s interesting that Livy didn’t sort of tap into that what seems to be like a key piece of like, just knowledge about how water might work. But anyway, it’s not his thing. So the Romans in general think that the gods might be mad at them fair enough, and it’s time to do some ritual propitiation of the gods in order to make things okay. And ask local bankers

Dr Rad 28:17
banquet, was it enough? They even had catches? Yeah, look,

Dr G 28:20
The lectisternium is over, guys, we can’t do another one of those just yet. Who would we invite

Dr Rad 28:27
these guards?

Dr G 28:29
So the local soothsayers apparently didn’t have a good answer on this situation, and this is what led to sending a delegation to the Delphic Oracle. Like you can’t get an answer, you need an answer. It’s time to visit Delphi anyway. That’s a long trip. So fair enough. But in the meantime, over in Fay, it turns out that one of the inhabitants of Veii

Dr Rad 29:00
is a man

Dr G 29:03
no is a holder of the knowledge of augural science.

Dr Rad 29:09
Birds, again,

Dr G 29:12
who the knowledge of which has been inherited from his ancestors. And the Etruscans are famous for their augury. So this is one of their ways of doing divination that that is really nice. And it turns out that if you’ve been in a siege for about five or six years, maybe you’ve struck up some acquaintances and friendships on either side of the wall. And this guy from they has ended up being mates with one of the Roman centurions, nameless, sadly, naturally, who knows some guy anyway? These two dudes, they get together every so often, have a bit of a chat. You know, they see each other wave from like, you know, down on the ground, from up on the wall, mate, let’s go.

Dr Rad 29:58
I’m not gonna kill you today.

Dr G 29:59
No. You starving yet? Why you’re looking good. Consider you got no food, all that sort of stuff. And apparently, on one of these days, this guy from ve remarks that he pities the Roman Centurion because of the calamity that is going to befall him and everybody, if the city is captured,

Dr Rad 30:19
wait, if Veii is captured, or if Rome is captured, it must be a captured, right?

Dr G 30:24
Oh no, the centurion, sorry. Oh, right, sorry, yes, yes, not the guy from me, the centurions, like, look, I’m, you know, sorry for you guys. You know it’s gonna end badly. We’re gonna capture the city. It’s gonna be a disaster. Yeah,

Dr Rad 30:35
you already so we did to your allies. It wasn’t pleasant. Sorry

Dr G 30:39
about that. Yeah, and then the Etruscan guy says, Well, you know, that’s interesting that you say that because you’re actually quite ignorant of what is going to happen in this situation. Because, you know, we’re in this endless war, fruitless toil, and you think you’re going to overthrow the city of Veii, and it seems like you don’t understand that there is a whole prophecy related to this. So nobody told you about the kind of

Dr Rad 31:13
reading your sibling books.

Dr G 31:15
So as an atratuscan, what I can tell you is you don’t know the prophecy, and it’s fated that they will be captured only when and only if the lake beside the album mount is lacking in its natural springs and is no longer able to mingle its waters with the sea.

Dr Rad 31:35
Hmm. Okay, that’s a bit more specific than mine. Yeah.

Dr G 31:39
So the idea that the lake actually feeds into a whole bunch of sort of tributary systems and eventually leads into the sea, which, you know, sounds pretty reasonable geographically. And I think the guy from Veii is feeling really confident as well being like, well, obviously, you know, you’re never going to be able to cut off a lake and a river system from the sea. That’s just not how things work. Boy, has this guy underestimated the Romans

Dr Rad 32:10
and their determination to beat them?

Dr G 32:13
So the Roman centurion is kind of like, this sounds serious, but it does sound like we’ve got, like, a way out here as well. And he tells the tribunes that he’s got a bit of a plan, and he’s wondering if he can move forward with it. And they’re kind of like, well, sure. I mean, I guess. I mean, let’s see what happens. It can’t be any worse than anything else we’ve been trying recently. So the Roman centurian is like, the next day to the guy from Veii, like, let’s have a chat, man to man, mano e mano, let’s do this thing. And the guy from Veii’s like, sure, you know, we can have a more fulsome chat about prodigies and things like that. That’s fine. And as they’re going for a bit of a walk away from the walls, it’s at that moment that the Centurion grabs the guy from Veii around the waist picks him up and runs away with him abduction and carries him off to the Roman camp, to the surprise of perhaps the guy from Veii, but not to the military tribunes who approved this plan ahead of Time, of course. So the tribunes, they use arguments. They threaten to torture this guy.

Dr Rad 33:25
Oh, okay, so in my account, it seems like he just gave everything up very easily. No,

Dr G 33:31
he doesn’t give things up very easily. They eventually send this guy to the Senate, because he doesn’t seem to be giving them any more fulsome detail. And he kind of just sort of states the same thing over to the Senate as well. Some of the Senate appear to think that this guy must be a bit of a huckster, a charlatan, somebody who’s just lying through their teeth to try and get the Romans worried. And others are kind of like, seems legit, you know, gotta? You gotta listen to the soothsayers. You wouldn’t want to dismiss somebody who’s got augural science in their background, would you so got the birds only sad? Yeah, the birds are with him. So it’s in this moment when we have the guy from Vay in front of the Senate and they’re disagreeing about whether they believe him or not, that the ambassadors that had been sent to Delphi earlier return, just in the nick of time. Oh, okay, yeah. So we’ve got this moment of the coming together of the guy from Veii, who is telling this story about the urban Lake and how, you know, if it’s cut off from the sea, that means Rome will win. That’s when they will fall. That’s when it’s foretold, and that’s the only time that it could happen. But now the guys from Delphi are back, and they’re like, Oh, well, this is interesting, because it turns out that the Delphic Oracle agrees with this an Etruscan prophecy. That’s what she’s told us as well. That’s what she said they’re like, ah. So this then sets in motion a whole train of action. There’s a sense in which that Dionysius, at this point, starts to talk about the gods and the genii of the city of they and the genii are this personification of divine force that is supposed to live in every person. So the idea that there is, there are gods of a place, and Genii sort of embedded in the people that also reflect the place, seems to be this sort of thing. And the idea that the good fortune of the city is really held in place by the gods and the corresponding genii, and this is where the Romans decide that it might be time to test out this prophecy by taking some action. That’s

Dr Rad 36:03
interesting, actually, because one of the academics I was reading about this passage mentioned that the idea of the gods deserting they and therefore that being the moment when the city finally falls is meant to once again, be really matching up with the narrative of the Trojan War and the gods deserting Troy. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Very

Dr G 36:29
interesting. Yeah. So this idea that the character and strength of a is somehow tied to the divinities, but is also tied into prophecy and somehow connected to this Alban Lake specifically. So there is a sense of location involved as well, and that, yeah, the fate of the city is in the balance in this moment. So the Romans come up with what I think is a very quintessential Roman problem solving for a prophecy like this. Let

Dr Rad 37:08
me guess it involves construction. We’re gonna

Dr G 37:11
dig some channels, guys. Let us divert the water that flows out of the Alban Lake and make sure that it no longer runs into the sea. That’s how we’re going to win this war.

Dr Rad 37:26
Smart, ARB,

Dr G 37:28
true. Smart, I did some Roman engineering. What I find fascinating about this whole tale is that, on the one hand, it sounds very much like the person from Veii is just trying to provide a distraction tactic and keep the Romans busy. Keep the Romans busy in the opposite direction.

Dr Rad 37:47
Yeah, exactly like suddenly the geography makes sense. You need to

Dr G 37:51
be looking over at the Alban Lake, guys. That’s where the problem lies. Not I mean, we’re going to be here until that problem is solved. So if you go over there and fix that and then come back here, and in the meantime, everybody in Veii is like, sort of laughing in the corner being like they fell for it.

Dr Rad 38:11
That’s it’d be hilarious if it weren’t for the fact that they actually will be defeated. Well,

Dr G 38:16
that that is the real problem for this narrative, I think, yeah, but they’re not going to fall straight away. So in that sense, we’ve got a bit of a problem, because the Romans are now out doing various engineering works on the plains south of Rome, away from Veii to try and divert some water courses. And it’s kind

Dr Rad 38:35
of wild to think that you can actually still see, presumably, this tunnel that Livy and Dionysius and everyone was talking about that it actually still exists. I have heard it mentioned as well in one of the sources I was looking at that maybe, rather than being a diversion, very cleverly devised by the people of a maybe it had something to do with hygiene. You know, if the Romans are worried about plague or dealing with pestilence, you know, given all the environmental things that have gone on, maybe it was something to do with improving, like water flow, water supply, hygiene, something like that in their area.

Dr G 39:18
I think there’s reasonable grounds to assume that the locals in the area have done works around the lake in order to mitigate its potential for flooding like that would just make sense. Yes. So in order to it, because it’s it functions a little bit like a dam, and if you need to let some runoff happen, and you’ve got the capacity to control that a little bit. That’s preferable to letting it flood wherever it wants to and making it really, really difficult for people who live around that lake. Yeah. So controlling that environment, I think, is something that makes sense for the locals in the area, whether the Roman specific. Did it in connection to this prophecy? Is a whole other question. And one of the sources that I encountered for this that was considered to be modern scholarship, but it was, it did feel more like a 19th century Grand Tour journal. Was a guy who was like, I’ve just gone to try and find these tunnels related to this Alban lake. And boy, did I succeed. And I had to tie some rope around some olive trees and swing on over find out what’s going on. I was like, This is hilarious and very interesting. So there’s definitely engineering work that have that has been done that is related to the Alban Lake, for sure. The connection with this as early as this period on unclear, but the dating is Yeah. The dating might be Yeah. Well, definitely, there seems to be some grounds for this kind of idea. Now, whether you want to buy into this whole narrative, but Dionysius continues with more detail here as well, because it’s not just that the Romans go about this engineering work. The people in Veii find out about the engineering work, and they become incredibly concerned that the prophecy is about to come true the wrong way. Yeah,

Dr Rad 41:17
it makes it sound less like a clever diversion on that part. Well,

Dr G 41:20
apparently they become really quite concerned, and they send one of their most senior soothsayers at that point to the Romans as an envoy, and

Dr Rad 41:32
he’s like, we take it all back. We didn’t mean it,

Dr G 41:35
not that they didn’t mean it, but that they actually wished to end the war they wanted to, oh, my god, yeah. So they sent somebody really senior to the Romans to say, we would like to see an end to this siege. And, wow, we will give up. They and it’s at that point that the Roman Senate votes against peace. Holy

Dr Rad 42:02
crap. I’m glad you can’t see me right now. Dr, G, because my mind blown all over the walls.

Dr G 42:09
I’m sorry to hear it, because your brain is very special. The fact that it’s everywhere now is it’s a problem.

Dr Rad 42:17
We’re gonna have to put that back together again. We’ll deal with that later, after the audio,

Dr G 42:22
so yeah, the Senate votes against peace, which is a poor choice. I would say. You know, if people are willing to not fight and give up a place, ideally say yes, yeah,

Dr Rad 42:36
why would you want Is it because they really think that they have to do things according to the prophecy.

Dr G 42:42
Oh, they actually it’s not at all clear. Dionysius doesn’t give us like the rationale for why the Senate doesn’t want peace, okay, but does record the reaction of the envoy who really digs into them and says, What kind of place are you that you will not accept the submission of a city like who do you think you are, that we think we’re room, that when a city comes to you and says, we’re going to lay down our arms and surrender, that you would rather destroy it root and branch like what kind of people are you in the face of the gods that you would make that kind of decision? I

Dr Rad 43:30
feel like this is building to a larger narrative that Dionysius might have in mind. It has something to do with something that happens to Rome after they managed to conquer they

Dr G 43:44
no spoilers. So that’s Dionysius account of the situation, okay, and then we have plutarchs Life of Camillus. And obviously the focus is on Camillus, and so

Dr Rad 44:02
naturally he mentions the whole escapade against the Capenates. Yeah,

Dr G 44:06
Tribune for the second time, you know, for the present, he had nothing to do with the siege, because he was busy waging war with the Valerians. Oh, okay, and the capernatos. Oh, okay,

Dr Rad 44:21
there you go. And

Dr G 44:23
so he was a busy boy, not involved with the siege, but that’s very exciting. But then Plutarch also shifts into talking about the calamity of the Alban Lake.

Dr Rad 44:33
Oh, wow. Everyone’s very concerned about these water levels.

Dr G 44:37
This lake is considered to be an incredible prodigy. Yeah, tell me about it. No natural cause. Nobody knows where the water came from. It had been neither rainy nor nor had Rome been vexed with South winds,

Dr Rad 44:58
once again, overlooking this. Yeah,

Dr G 45:02
yeah. So the rivers had run low, so there could be no explanation at all for why the Alban Lake, on the other hand, was already somehow rising above its natural levels, swelling until it reached the skirts of the mountain and gradually touching the highest ridges.

Dr Rad 45:24
Sounds pretty pervy. Yeah,

Dr G 45:27
it is those skirts. They’re rising. Oh, yeah. This was considered a prodigy already, apparently, by the local shepherds and herdsmen. They had looked at the lake. They saw it first. They’re like, This is bad. The gods are involved, and then the waters break, and Plutarch describes this massive torrent coming down out of the mountain all of a sudden and flooding everything in its path, ruining the vineyards for which this mountainous area is so famous for, and heading all the way to the sea, which, if you’re in the urban mount, you can’t see the sea in the distance. So, I mean, it’s the least within, you know, a reasonable visual range. And everyone’s dismayed. Obviously, Rome’s it’s a problem for Rome and the inhabitants. It’s a problem for everybody in the local area. It’s all very low lying. Everyone in Rome, I imagine, is like running up to the tops of hills being like, Oh no. Then we get the similar sort of story about the soothsayer from Veii being on intimate and confidential terms with one of the Roman soldiers. Man

Dr Rad 46:35
three sources and still no names,

Dr G 46:39
no But similarly, the guy from Veii gets abducted by the soldier just they’re just friends, just two men, one abducting the other one with a prophecy. It

Dr Rad 46:51
sounds like the kind of friendship you should probably expect during a siege, to be fair to the Romans.

Dr G 46:57
So in that sense, Plutarch is a pretty good parallel. It sounds it reads like Plutarch read Dionysius of halicanassus is one of his major sources. Oh, and Livy, no, but he doesn’t have Livy s details. He has Dionysius. Yeah, I’m just kidding. Um, so I’m sorry he might have read Livy and decided that that one didn’t really convince him quite as much

Dr Rad 47:21
as, Oh, someone’s cooking now that she’s got her sauce material back,

Dr G 47:27
my sauces are back, guys, finally, we can know the truth about robes

Dr Rad 47:31
history. Yeah, I told by the Greek

Dr G 47:35
an impartial source to be sure. Oh,

Dr Rad 47:39
dear. All right, well, I think that probably does that wrap us up for 398,

Dr G 47:43
yeah, mostly. So this does get a mention in Cicero’s on divination as well,

Dr Rad 47:49
of course, on divination. Yes,

Dr G 47:53
he talks about this, not in terms of abduction of the soothsayer from Veii, but as a desertion, which might tie in quite nicely with Livy s version of events actually true. Yeah. So the idea that this guy from Veii gives up all of this detail so willingly,

Dr Rad 48:11
he’s just like, Oh, please don’t take me. Oh no, no, I’m on the other side. I have a prophecy that could really help you, and I have a prophecy that says that my city’s gonna fall in a couple of years. Oh no, I know what. I got a room. Don’t take me to the other side. That’s gonna win. I’d hate for that to happen exactly with my people, exactly. I need to be here when everything really goes tits up.

Dr G 48:36
That gives a sense like Cicero is more leaning into the desertion aspect of this and how that might play out, and certainly also conveys this idea that perhaps the people of a are really just war tired at this point.

Dr Rad 48:52
Well, yeah, they haven’t been able to get out, yeah, and

Dr G 48:55
they do, again, send an envoy to Rome, and they do seek peace at this point, and we don’t see peace. So it’s it’s glossed over a little bit, and there’s not as much detail about that in Cicero as we get in Dionysus of Halicarnassus. But certainly, this idea that Rome has a peace offer on the table, and they reject it does come through in a couple of different sources.

Dr Rad 49:23
Rome, Rome, you make it hard to root for you. Sometimes

Dr G 49:27
they certainly do. But yes, that is the end of my source material. All right.

Dr Rad 49:31
Well, Dr G, it’s time to wrap up. 398, that means it’s time for the partial pick. Woohoo. An Ow. Who, who? All right. Dr, G, tell us how the partial pick works.

Dr G 49:46
All right. We judge Rome by five categories. We like to think we judge them by their own standards, but really we judge them by a house completely

Dr Rad 49:56
arbitrary.

Dr G 49:58
They can win up to. 50 Golden Eagles under this system, and 10 are potentially on offer in each category. So our first category is military clout, okay,

Dr Rad 50:12
not really what I would call military clout. I mean, there’s a little bit of action in my account. You know, with the military tribunes with concealer power, seems to go, okay, but it’s nothing that spectacular.

Dr G 50:24
Yeah, I think we get Camillus, and that’s about it, but

Dr Rad 50:30
and Potitus.Thank you very much.

Dr G 50:34
Could forget Potitus? I mean, I just did so I can’t give points to somebody I forgot, even within the context of an episode we were talking about him, yeah. I mean, I feel like two, yeah, I’m not. I feel like I’m not in a good position to judge this one, because I

Dr Rad 50:50
feel like two, yeah, one for each of them, for Potitus and Camillus. Oh,

Dr G 50:55
all right. Two, it is our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 50:59
Wow. Well, given your accounts, the Romans really fall on their face in this category.

Dr G 51:05
I think I would like to give them negative. I can’t, so I’m gonna go with zero, because they hand diplomacy come to their doorstep and they said, No, thank you. We’d rather try to wipe you all out. And

Dr Rad 51:20
I also think the kidnapping is also kind of undiplomatic. Yes,

Dr G 51:24
that is undiplomatic, isn’t it? And I don’t think that sending envoys to Delphi necessarily counts as diplomacy. No,

Dr Rad 51:32
no, that’s just for their own ends,

Dr G 51:36
indeed. So a solid zero there. Good job. Rome. Third category is expansion.

Dr Rad 51:43
No, again, it’s just faffing about at this age.

Dr G 51:48
Yes, there’s no territory gained nor lost. It would seem, trenches were dug, channels were made. Engineering happened.

Dr Rad 51:57
Says you, but yeah, oh, my account very specifically says nothing happens yet

Dr G 52:04
I see All right, so expansion is a zero, yeah, the fourth category is weirdos. No,

Dr Rad 52:11
oh, my god,

Dr G 52:13
Ro really falling on it.

Dr Rad 52:17
I know. I mean, there’s some chat that’s bad,

Dr G 52:20
is it weird to us to abduct somebody in broad daylight after you’ve led them away from a wall?

Dr Rad 52:26
Well, this is the thing. I think the Romans would like it, but I think they would think that’s pretty manly, yeah, but the guy’s nameless. I feel like they’re not really taking him very seriously. If they don’t at least bother to give us his name. Perhaps you are right. Yeah, I feel like if they really thought, oh my god, this is so cool, they would tell us at least what his name was, and also how weird was It was, yeah, exactly. It doesn’t come across that way. It’s very set up, like it’s very sketchy in Livy S account, the way that he’s like, Oh, hi, old man, you don’t happen to have any weapons on you. Good, good. Let’s just wander over here. Nothing suspicious, nothing to worry about. Look at

Dr G 53:09
it. Look at that bird.

Dr Rad 53:11
Yeah, and he’s like, Well, it’s kind of my thing. Thanks. Thanks for noticing Roman enemy.

Dr G 53:19
Okay, so is zero and weird, I

Dr Rad 53:20
think it has to be, yeah, okay.

Dr G 53:23
And the last category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 53:28
Oh, I don’t know how to feel about this one, because we don’t really get much from the citizens. It can’t be good if they’re flooding and they have no plebeians in office, so that’s bad, even though they apparently think it’s good. Yeah, and the war is dragging on. I mean, it doesn’t sound

Dr G 53:50
great, yeah. And who’s digging those, those channels? Well,

Dr Rad 53:54
exactly. I don’t believe that patricians are doing it.

Dr G 53:58
I don’t think so. I’d be very surprised. I would be too Oh

Dr Rad 54:03
no. Dr, G, that means Rome has managed to scrounge together two gold

Dr G 54:11
Oh no.

Dr Rad 54:12
I mean, you think it would be good news actually, because they’ve got this prophecy that’s kind of in their favor, but it’s just not in their favor yet. I

Dr G 54:21
see, yeah, well, it’s tough times out there. Oh, that is rough. Well, I wish that your lakes rise only as much as you desire them to, and that there are no prophecies attached to them. In any case, actually,

Dr Rad 54:35
ironically, I am currently living in an apartment that floods whenever we get the tiniest bit of rain, and we are actually about to have it dug up and relayed so that basically, rain is better. I’m living this year, right? My life is you

Dr G 54:52
don’t need to time travel. You’re there. I

Dr Rad 54:54
am, and like the Romans, whenever it rains, I’m surprised. Said, I’m like, Oh, the levels are rising. Why? Why did the God take me? So

Dr G 55:06
what you really need is a prophecy.

Dr Rad 55:09
I really do. It would be a lot cheaper than what I’m going for.

Dr G 55:13
Well, a pleasure as Oh, indeed. Oh,

Dr Rad 55:16
music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on kofi. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say survey to J9niners, Joe, Nigel, Scott and Kent some of our recent Patreon and Kofi supporters. Thank you so much for joining our partial band. However, if you’re feeling decidedly like a downtrodden pleb, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review and a quick reminder at the time that this episode is released, you will be able to pick yourself up a copy of our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire, at your local bookstore or on Amazon, Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We love it when we get to chat with some of our podcast friends, and this week we got to catch up with the hilarious Liv Albert from ‘Let’s talk about myths, baby!’ to talk about relationships between gods and mortals.

Please be warned, this episode does contain references to sexual assault.

Special Episode – Gods and Mortals with Liv Albert

The lovely Liv Albert herself!

When we get together with Liv, we pick a theme and compare the Roman and Greek myths on the topic. This episode, we decided to compare what each civilisation had to say about gods and mortals get involved with each other.

We found some interesting points of divergence as we delved into the tales of Rhea Silvia and Mars, Servius Tullius and Fortuna, and Aphrodite and Anchises.

Join us for this mini-myth conversation!

 

Things to Look Out For:

• Mars Bar controversy
• The debut of ‘The Trojan Connection’
• Roman studio executives planning to reboot Aeneas’ myth
• Bold promises about re-reading The Aeneid

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

We sit down with Casie Vogel, VP Publisher at Ulysses Press to talk about the process of bringing an ancient Roman history book into the world and some of the cheeky details about the past that Casie learnt along the way.

To celebrate the publication of ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ this special episode is even in video form!

https://videopress.com/v/Pni4vXoO?resizeToParent=true&cover=true&posterUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fpartialhistorians.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F11%2Fyour-cheeky-guide-interview-with-casie-vogel_mp4_hd.original.jpg&preloadContent=metadata&useAverageColor=true You can also find this video over on our YouTube channel if that’s easier for you.

Join us as we talk about books, publishing, and ancient Rome (of course)!

Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire is out now! We hope you love it as much as we enjoyed writing it. Have a chat to your local independent bookstore about getting a copy or two in or let your library know that you’d love them to keep a copy in their collection.

Libraries are a bastion of hope and a refuge for so many and surely a joy-filled exploration of Rome is just the ticket!

This is what the tome looks like it in all its glory!

How to Buy Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire

US – You can read more about the book as well as how to order it at Ulysses Press.

UK – If you’re based in the UK, check out Bookshop.org

Australia – If you’re based in Australia, check out Abbey’s Bookstore, Booktopia, or check in with your local independent bookseller.

Sound Credits

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The header image includes the highly detailed, but very idealised imagining of ancient Rome at its height by Thomas Cole. This painting dates to 1836 and is part of the series The Course of Empire. This painting in particular is entitled The Consummation. There are vibrant crowds of people on a bridge crossing the Tiber surrounded by white buildings with hints of gold everywhere.

We are thrilled to release the final cheeky preview from our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire. The final chapter from our ‘With a Rebel Yell’ bonus material is entitled ‘Last Man Standing: Masada’. This bonus episode is coming out on the very same day that our book officially hits the shelves. Huzzah!

The Final Cheeky Preview – Last Man Standing: Masada

We hope you enjoy listening to the fascinating tale of the final stand in the First Jewish Revolt (or Great Jewish Revolt). The literary and archaeological sources for this event pose just as many questions as they answer!

Want to hear about our other favourite rebels? Check out the chapters on Spartacus and Zenobia!

And of course, if you enjoy this chapter, you might like to grab yourself a copy of the book! It is available on Amazon, or ask at your local independent bookstore.

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Our new book ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’ has nearly landed! Pre-order your copy via Ulysses Press!

It’s happening – the Romans enter the fourth century! In this episode, we compare and contrast the ancient source accounts for the year that was 399 BCE. Rome and Veii are still locked in a siege, with Roman forces outside the gates of the most preeminent Etruscan city to the south. Combined with the this situation is the suggestion that one (or more) plebeians have recently made it into the position of military tribune with consular power – no small feat given this is the most senior magistracy in Rome during the year that people are elected into it.

Episode 155 – A Feast for the Gods!

Siege got you down? Experiencing some baleful weather? What’s a Roman to do?

It’s fair to say that Rome’s been copping a rough time recently. From strange and unprecedented weather conditions to the ongoing challenges of trying to run a multi-year siege when you have a system of annual magistrates, Rome is in a tough spot. It’s moments like these that a consultation with the Sibylline Books is in order…

Things to listen out for

• Who are the duumvirs?
• What is the lectisternium and why do the Romans want one?
• A hot Roman summer
• A huge snowstorm
• A little bit of the regional history of some of the gods: Apollo and Latona
• Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi puts in an early appearance as the writer of the Annales
• Veii might not be friendless after all!

Our Players

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Gnaeus Genucius M. f. M. n. Augurinus
• Lucius Atilius L. f. L. n. Priscus
• Marcus Pomponius L. f. L. n. Rufus
• Gnaeus/Gaius Duillius K. f. K. n. Longus
• Marcus Veturius Ti. f. Sp. n. Crassus Cicurinus (Pat)
• Volero Publilius P. f. Voler. N. Philo

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy 5.13
• Dr G reads the Dionysius of Halicarnassus Ant. Rom. 12.7-9; Diodorus Siculus 14.54.1-4; Fasti Capitolini
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press)
• Elvers, K. (., Eck, W. (., Kierdorf, W. (., Walde, C. (., & Fey-Wickert, B. (. (2006). Calpurnius. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e225050
• Graf, F. (. O., & Ley, A. (. (2006). Apollo. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e128090
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Maharam, W. (. (2006). Latona. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e632510
• Mommsen, T. 1894-1908. Römische Geschichte Münzer, F. ‘Licinius 43’ in Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
• Phillips, C. R. I. (. P. (2006). Neptunus. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e820340
• Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
• Siebert, A. V. (. (2006). Lectisternium. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e633370
• Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.

Sound Credits

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.

The Apollo of Veii is thought to date to around 500 BCE so about a century prior to the action that takes place in this episode. This fabulous sculpture is held by the Museo Nazionale Etrusco.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:04
And I am Dr G, welcome.

Dr Rad 1:08
Dr G, I feel like listeners will have no idea how hard we have fought to get to our microphones today.

Dr G 1:15
Oh, dear listeners, we’ve been experiencing some audio issues.

Dr Rad 1:20
We still are experienced.

Dr G 1:23
Suffice it to say that we are podcasting in separate rooms of the same house

Dr Rad 1:28
and I am standing, which is very strange.

Dr G 1:31
Think of the vocal projection

Dr Rad 1:34
And I can’t hear myself. So this is going to be really interesting.

Dr G 1:37
So we have been tracing Rome’s history from the founding of the city and it this is a very exciting episode for us, because we officially tip into the fourth century BCE.

Dr Rad 1:54
That we do. And to do a quick recap of where we were in 400 BCE, the tipping point, if you will. The main thing that we were excited about was the fact that there was a plebeian elected to the supreme magistracies of Rome, the military tribune with consular power.

Dr G 2:15
Such a breakthrough. And I think, if I recall rightly, and maybe I don’t, there was more than one,

Dr Rad 2:20
No, you are 100% wrong on that.

Dr G 2:25
Well, there you go, folks, even historians don’t remember things properly. That’s why it’s always good to check your sources.

Dr Rad 2:30
Yes, but yes, we had one who was elected, and everyone was like, this isn’t too bad the world didn’t collapse on itself. And the other thing, I think to note, in terms of background, we’ve been talking about this for a few episodes, actually, but I feel it will be relevant to my narrative. Today, Rome is at war with Veii, an Etruscan city to the north.

Dr G 2:52
Yeah, this has been happening for a little while now, and we must be, you know, a good ways into what is going to be this 10 year siege.

Dr Rad 3:00
Yes, we’re getting ever closer. Dr G, to the end of the siege.

Dr G 3:04
Edging towards the end of the siege.

Dr Rad 3:06
Yeah. So that’s a recap. If you want a more detailed one, we actually just did a massive episode where we were kept the entire fifth century.

Dr G 3:13
Yeah, check it out.

Dr Rad 3:14
Yeah. But otherwise, I’m ready. Dr G, let’s go into 399 BCE.

Dr G 3:42
It’s 399 BCE.

Dr Rad 3:46
How’s your source material looking, Dr. G?

Dr G 3:48
Oh, I have source material.

Dr Rad 3:50
Really?!

Dr G 3:50
I’m so excited.

Dr Rad 3:52
Okay, well, you know what? Just in case it’s not as good as you think, I’m gonna let you do the magistracies, because I feel like that’s just become your thing.

Dr G 4:01
Now, that’s a little bit of an ouch from the old Livy lover over here.

Dr Rad 4:05
Nothing against you personally. It’s just Dionysius has been gone for a while now,

Dr G 4:10
I know, but we’ll get to that in a moment. Okay, so we start the year with military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 4:18
We do

Dr G 4:19
Super important. And there is six of them, and I hate to break it to you, I did just go back and do a quick relook at 400 and at least from my sources perspective, there was more than one plebeian as military tribune with consular power in 400 now we could be quibbling about names, but definitely this year, we seem to have a whole spate of plebeians in the role.

Dr Rad 4:46
Well, way to go and spoil my fun. Dr, G, I was going to surprise you with the fact that Livy tells me explicitly that there is only one patrician elected to be military tribune with consular power in this year.

Dr G 5:02
Oh yeah, the old Marcus Veturius Crassus Cicurinus.

Dr Rad 5:07
Yeah, that guy yeah.

Dr G 5:09
Or Cicurinus, that’s the one that guy, he’s gonna stand up. So this guy, this one, sole patrician this year, is surrounded by a whole bunch of really interesting, different folk who do not seem to have patrician names. So we’ve got, first of all, Gnaeus Genucius Augurinus. We have Lucius Atilius Priscus. Both of these guys, first time in the role. Not a surprise when you’re not a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:09
Yeah, I could have told you that

Dr G 5:16
Marcus Pomponius Rufus, doesn’t seem to be a patrician either.

Dr Rad 5:43
No

Dr G 5:44
Gnaeus or Gaius – there seems to be some dispute about the praenomen with this guy – Duilius Longus.

Dr Rad 5:52
I feel like I’ve heard that family name before.

Dr G 5:55
Duilius?

Dr Rad 5:56
Plebian though it may be.

Dr G 5:58
Yeah, I think it has come up. It rolls off the tongue nicely, which means I must have pronounced it before.

Dr Rad 6:03
Exactly.

Dr G 6:04
And finally, we have Valero Publius Philo.

Dr Rad 6:08
Okay.

Dr G 6:09
So all of these guys, all five of these non patrician military tribunes, first time in the role, fresh cabs off the rank. I think we’re in that point where, in terms of the siege of Veiii, people are looking for new strategies and innovation.

Dr Rad 6:23
Look possibly. But I find it kind of amusing that, according to Livy, at least, it has taken several decades to get to the point where people finally felt comfortable enough to elect a plebeian to be military tribune with consular power. And now that they’ve had one year with one guy, they’re like, we’re all in. Let’s make it plebeian all the time. Turns out they’re great, yeah, exactly. I find that quite hilarious.

Dr G 6:50
They just had to try it.

Dr Rad 6:52
Yeah, exactly. Now they’re like, oh my god.

Dr G 6:54
It’s really opened a door for them. Now they’re getting experimental.

Dr Rad 6:57
Exactly, yeah, all right. So apart from the fact that we have so many plebeians in office, the first thing that Livy tells me about 399 is that there had been a terrible winter the year before, which, I think I did mention, and now in 399 it’s an incredibly hot summer.

Dr G 7:16
Ooh,

Unknown Speaker 7:16
Yes..

Dr G 7:17
Oh, a hot Roman summer.

Dr Rad 7:18
That’s right. I actually quite like the translation, so I’m going to read it out to you. It is noxious and baleful to all living creatures.

Dr G 7:25
Oh, god.

Dr Rad 7:27
Doesn’t sound great.

Dr G 7:28
Oh, look. I mean, I was in Rome last year and it was pretty hot. It was a six week heat wave. So maybe they had one of those.

Dr Rad 7:36
I feel like they did so naturally, if you have a terrible winter and then a really awful summer, it gets you wondering. Dr, G, have I offended the gods?

Dr G 7:49
Is climate change on the horizon?

Dr Rad 7:51
Exactly. What have we been doing? You know, I mean, Rome does become a industrial powerhouse, but I feel like we’re getting a bit ahead of ourselves with that one. It’s probably more likely that they’ve offended the gods.

Dr G 8:00
Yeah, our chances are.

Dr Rad 8:02
Yeah. So as a result, they’re looking around. They’re going, what did we do? I can’t figure it out. And so they turn to their old trusty fail safe, the Sibylline Books.

Dr G 8:16
Yeah, okay, so the Sibylline Books, just to sort of recap a little bit on that we think that they turned up in Rome in the time of the kings and were sadly mostly destroyed through hubris. And the few books that are remaining are now safely guarded and taken care of and consulted in times of trouble. Now you could also go and see the Sibylline oracle directly. But there’s also the books.

Dr Rad 8:44
Exactly they decide to go for the books, easier option.

Dr G 8:48
Yeah, you never know if she’s gonna be available.

Dr Rad 8:50
Exactly. Now, we have actually mentioned this before. It seems like there are some guys who are kind of in charge of the books, or stuff relating to the books called the duumvirs. They’ve come up before, I believe. Now, those of you who studied places like Pompeii will know that a duumvir is the head magistracies in like, a smaller town like Pompeii, but in this case, we’re not really talking about that exactly. ‘Duumvir’ just literally means like the two men.

Dr G 9:22
Yeah, the two men who are looking after those books.

Dr Rad 9:25
Exactly. So they decide that what they need to do is hold a new religious ceremony. Now I’m building up to this because I’m not entirely confident that my tongue is going to get around it the lectisternium.

Dr G 9:43
Oh, yes. Oh, look, you and I, our sources are in sync in some respects.

Dr Rad 9:47
Okay, so apparently it’s the first one that was ever held in Rome, and it goes for eight days, and there are sacrifices to Apollo, Latona, Diana, Hercules, Mercury and Neptune. Now, listeners might be wondering, well, what is involved in this? Exactly? Apparently, the name comes from the idea that there are couches involved and food spread out for the gods, because, essentially, the Romans put out some couches, put down some images of the gods on those couches, and spread out a nice little banquet for them.

Dr G 10:30
A delicious divine feast.

Dr Rad 10:32
Exactly, exactly they are invited to partake in this sacrificial feast. Basically, we think it comes from Greek origins. The Romans being influenced by the Greeks because they have something kind of similar. I think the Greek versions are called the theoxenia, which is again basically a banquet for the gods, with their images spread out on couches and stuff.

Dr G 11:03
It’s a delightful image. And I wonder if this might be a good time to take you a little bit through what I have of Dionysus of Halicarnassus, because framing up the context for this whole situation, I think is really important.

Dr Rad 11:19
Yeah. No, please tell me.

Dr G 11:21
So Dionysus of Halicarnassus does not agree with Livy.

Dr Rad 11:24
Oh okay, fine,

Dr G 11:25
Sadly

Dr Rad 11:27
But you just said we were in sync.

Dr G 11:28
Well, in the sense that we’ve got severe weather on the cards

Dr Rad 11:31
Ah okay

Dr G 11:32
but we have very different types of severe weather being put forward.

Dr Rad 11:37
Let me guess it was a great winter and then an even better summer.

Dr G 11:42
It was a very severe snowstorm.

Dr Rad 11:46
Okay

Dr G 11:47
And the snow apparently was higher than seven Roman feet. So we’re talking like an epic snowfall.

Dr Rad 11:57
Yeah, you’d be trapped in your house with that

Dr G 11:59
Oh, not only that, your house would collapse.

Dr Rad 12:02
That’s even worse than I imagine.

Dr G 12:03
It’s disastrous. So a Roman foot is about 29 centimeters, or about, I think, what does that make it maybe, maybe a foot, a modern foot, a Roman foot and a modern foot might be similar in length, and so we’re looking at a depth of over two metres worth of snow, or about six foot, nine and a half inches of snow, at least. And think about Rome and its situation on some small hills, but mostly surrounded by plains. This is a very unlikely geographic location for such a high level of snowfall and it is reported to be completely unprecedented, either in source material before or records afterwards, at least down to the time of Dionysus of Halicarnassus. So they talk about this as like an exceptionally terrible snow event. And the consequence of this are massive, because with this much snow, you basically have issues with your herds. Cattle die from frostbite and things like this. The fruit trees, which might be starting to put on new growth, basically wither up and don’t produce anything for years to come. They have to recover from that. People think those fruit trees are dead.

Dr Rad 13:26
My god.

Dr G 13:28
And when the snow melts, it’s so heavy that it actually breaks structures. So there’s this massive issue. And to compensate for this, the idea of putting forward a lectisternium under these conditions, so some sort of banquet with sacrifices to the gods, when actually the township of Rome itself must be on the brink of famine and under pretty severedisaster circumstances already, the idea that they’re giving what little they have left to the gods in order to try and rectify this situation, I think, speaks remarkably to how strongly the Romans feel about their relationship with the gods and how they have to manage that, and how shocking this whole moment must have been for them to be like, Oh, we really need to do something different in terms of our ritual practice in order to compensate for whatever is going on here, because this was outstandingly terrible.

Dr Rad 14:30
Wow, that’s so sad. I didn’t think about the fact that they’re offering food to the gods, and they probably have almost none.

Dr G 14:35
Yeah, so sad.

Dr Rad 14:37
I know. Well, apparently when we see the lectisternium showing up in early Rome, it is often in connection to things like pestilence. So and we’ve talked before about how these environmental issues can obviously lead to wider issues with food supply and general health. They’re obviously trying to tickle. All the boxes, because they are including most of the major gods I could think about.

Dr G 15:05
So yeah, so those connections of these gods seem really important as well. So Apollo has a connection with healing, divination, music

Dr Rad 15:14
Exactly

Dr G 15:15
Also has an Etruscan legacy as well. So he was well known throughout the region, not just from a Greek perspective. Latona is the goddess of the night, and so she is often considered to be synchronous with Leto

Dr Rad 15:33
Okay

Dr G 15:33
Also known in the Etruscan and obviously, Diana and Apollo have a bit of a thing.

Dr Rad 15:42
singing!

Dr G 15:44
Exactly. So this idea that there is a whole range of these gods involved, including Mercury, bringer of culture, relationships with the shepherds, maybe try to get something right with the herds here.

Dr Rad 15:58
And also maybe trade, you know, getting supplies, resources, making sure they’re not, you know, totally cut off.

Dr G 16:05
Yeah. And this connection with trade might also feed into the connection with Hercules, who’s also associated with cattle breeding and trading and things like that, true. And then we also have Neptune. Now, why Neptune is involved might just be because of the melting snow, because otherwise, I’m not sure why he’s there.

Dr Rad 16:24
Well, again, if we go back to trade, how do you trade? By ship.

Dr G 16:29
Oh, yeah, it’s the fastest way to travel.

Dr Rad 16:31
Exactly. So it could be that, but who really knows? So don’t spell that out for us, unfortunately.

Dr G 16:36
That’s true. Now, what is interesting in Dionysius’ account, because we’ve only got a fragment.

Dr Rad 16:43
Better than nothing!

Dr G 16:44
Better than – ooo I’ve got something to talk about, Dr Rad. He mentions a source on this called, referring to a guy called Piso, who is an ex censor who wrote a series called the ‘Annales’, which is, you know, off the face of it doesn’t sound particularly unique. Writing ‘Annales’ is the sort of thing that anybody who’s anybody likes to do. Both Livy and Dionysius or Halicarnassus are essentially writing annales – a year by year account of things.

Dr Rad 17:15
And it’s essentially what you and I are doing. Dr, G.

Dr G 17:17
Oh yeah, we’re not unique either. Oh no!

Dr Rad 17:20
No, but you know, we’re anybody who’s anybody, that’s a good thing.

Dr G 17:24
Oh, that’s true. We’re an illustrious category.

Dr Rad 17:26
Exactly.

Dr G 17:26
Now, this is a reference to somebody who we do know, a guy called Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi. Now he was a Roman senator and a historian in the second century BCE, tribune of the plebs in 149, consul in 133 and then censor in 120. Now,the reason why it’s worth mentioning those dates is because he’s very much tied up in the whole situation with the Gracchi later on.

Dr Rad 17:59
Oh, okay.

Dr G 18:00
So it’s interesting that we’re starting to see callbacks to writers that are very much invested in things to do with the agrarian crisis that then is also placed back in time into this like fourth and fifth century period as well.

Dr Rad 18:19
Absolutely, now Livy does go a little bit crazy, Dr G. Apparently, because Piso, the original source, might have added on a bit of extra detail. And this, apparently, is something that Dionysius, your friend, tells us,

Dr G 18:35
Oh, yeah. Oh. Dionysius has some, has some beautiful detail from Piso, yes.

Dr Rad 18:41
And so he says how it wasn’t just the gods having a fun old time, it was everybody in Rome, because they were just opening the doors. They were throwing open their homes and saying, Come on in. Join my party. Doesn’t matter if I know you. Doesn’t matter if I don’t. And it was time to make up with people you might have been fighting with, and you weren’t allowed to start any new fights. You weren’t allowed to start any lawsuits. Prisoners were released forever, it seems because the gods seem to be smiling down upon them.

Dr G 19:12
Hmm, are you saying that Livy doesn’t believe this?

Dr Rad 19:15
I think Livy does believe this. I think it’s Dionysius who mentions that this was something that Piso talked about.

Dr G 19:25
Yeah, he does, but he doesn’t dismiss it. He just sort of recounts it.

Dr Rad 19:28
It’s the academic that’re dismissive. I think they’re looking at all the other lectusternium and saying, This doesn’t happen. Oh, come on, guys, there’s no party vibe. There’s no Block Party.

Dr G 19:38
Let Piso have his moment in the sun,

Dr Rad 19:40
We’re shutting it right down.

Dr G 19:42
He wants to call back to some beautiful, glorious golden era of Rome, the proper Republic, where things were done, right.

Dr Rad 19:51
Well, look, I think that Livy went even further than Piso. Yeah, I think that’s what the academics are assuming that Piso added a little bit of extra detail. On and Livy s like, you know what? I’ll take your extra detail and add some.

Dr G 20:04
Okay, well, that’s very interesting, because it does seem like it’s a time of severe crisis. And perhaps a proportionate reaction to crisis is to really lean into – in a sort of nihilistic, fatalistic kind of way – lean into life itself and celebrate the fact that you’ve survived. So to me, this level of excess with like freeing of slaves and everybody’s partying at everybody’s house doesn’t necessarily sound unlikely given the severity of the circumstances. So if we buy into – it’s beena really severe natural disaster, and it sounds like we’ve had a couple of those in recent years as well – that on the back of some other weather conditions, and potentially on the back of a really hot summer where they’ve now got this really severe winter that people are kind of open to embracing the fact that they’ve gotten through this, and maybe that’s led to some hedonistic behavior.

Dr Rad 21:06
Look, I’m not entirely discounting the partying. I think it’s specifically the freeing of prisoners.

Dr G 21:12
Yeah, nobody would ever do that.

Dr Rad 21:14
Yeah, I’m not really sure about that. Yeah, the idea that it was also like a gigantic bloc party. It might be a time when people are, you know, putting aside their grudges and that kind of thing. But whether it was, you know, like Rome is just having, you know, one big old shindig, it’s like, well, maybe not. Now, Dr G, if that’s all we have to say about this banquet for the gods, I’ve got something else for you that’s heating up just like this horrible, horrible summer.

Dr G 21:42
Oh, what is it?

Dr Rad 21:44
It’s the war with Veii.

Dr G 21:46
Oh, no. Is it still happening?

Dr Rad 21:48
It’s definitely still happening.

Dr G 21:50
Oh, that siege. When’s it ever going to end?

Dr Rad 21:52
I know the Romans are tinkering around with their siege equipment. You know, I don’t really know anything about construction, so I’m going to imagine they’re tightening something, tightening some lug nuts. No idea what that is.

Dr G 22:05
You know, making – covering the rocks that they’re about to throw with a little bit of animal faeces to make them less pleasant when they hit the target.

Dr Rad 22:12
Exactly, writing insulting messages on the rocks.

Dr G 22:15
Exactly.

Dr Rad 22:16
Yes, when, all of a sudden, they’re attacked from different sides by the people that have joined Veii: the Capenantes and the Faliscans, as well as Veii.

Dr G 22:27
Wow. Okay, yeah, so they does have some allies. These are the people, if I recall rightly, that are slightly further north, who realize if Veii falls, the domino effect that they’re worried about.

Dr Rad 22:38
They have twigged, yes, that’s right, that’s exactly what’s happening now. This has happened before, because when the first realized that we know that the Romans got caught in a very unpleasant sandwich between their enemies, and it didn’t go well for them, however, that was, of course, entirely down to their poor leadership,

Dr G 22:54
I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, the I’m not coming to help you unless you ask. And it’s like, well, I’m not asking

Dr Rad 23:02
This time, they learnt from history. An example of someone learning from history. Can you believe it?

Dr G 23:08
It’s possible, my friends, it’s possible.

Dr Rad 23:11
So as a result, when the Romans found themselves, once again, penned in, help was immediately sent from the main camp, and the backups were also able to assault the Capenantes from behind bit of their own medicine. The Faliscans were naturally terrified by this sudden attack, and the Romans decided to really push this advantage home. And with a sally, they finally sent them running away, and the Romans didn’t let up there. They continued to follow them as they ran screaming in the other direction, slaughtering them, left, right and center.

Dr G 23:47
Ahhh, I ahh suppose it’s war. I mean, that’s unpleasant, though.

Dr Rad 23:51
I think we’re on the Roman side here, so I think we’re supposed to be happy about that.

Dr G 23:54
Yay.

Dr Rad 23:57
Then some Romans also decide, why not raid some territory of the Capenantes.

Dr G 24:03
Well, as you do naturally, since you’re there.

Dr Rad 24:05
Exactly. And whilst they were doing that, they happened to run into the army. He was chasing us for the Faliscans, and so they join in killing the surviving Faliscans.

Dr G 24:13
Oh, okay.

Dr Rad 24:15
Yeah, the people from Veii take a look around at this situation and say, You know what? We might just go back into the city.

Dr G 24:22
You know what? This siege is, fine. I’m gonna live inside the walls.

Dr Rad 24:25
Thanks for the help, guys. But you know what? I’m a bit tired. I think I might just go back behind the walls.

Dr G 24:30
I’m gonna retire to my chambers and think about my future with the Roman camp outside.

Dr Rad 24:35
Exactly. Unfortunately, of course, they have – they naturally – whilst they were fighting, the Romans – had the gates to the city closed so that the Romans couldn’t just run into the city.

Dr G 24:44
That’s very clever.

Dr Rad 24:45
Yeah. Unfortunately, what this means is the people who decide to retreat are trapped.

Dr G 24:50
Oh no.

Dr Rad 24:51
I don’t say that again because I just hit the microphone with my nose. They are trapped.

Dr G 24:55
Oh no.

Dr Rad 24:57
And unfortunately, many of them are also killed before they managed to get inside.

Dr G 25:02
Oh, okay, this sounds like it’s a pretty stellar win for the Roman forces. It doesn’t sound like they’ve broken the siege at all, but they’ve really put a dent in morale and confidence.

Dr Rad 25:13
It’s that slow drip of psychological terror.

Dr G 25:17
With neighbors like these, who needs enemies.

Dr Rad 25:19
Exactly, and the reasons why the people of a were slow to let the soldiers in is, of course, they didn’t want the Romans to penetrate their city, so they were very slow about opening the gates.

Dr G 25:30
Wow, I can only imagine the sort of horrified conversations that would have happened inside the walls, because people are basically locking out their own relations and then watching them get slaughtered.

Dr Rad 25:42
Yeah, they’re saying really sorry, guys. We know that you’re tired, we know that you want a nap, but we just can’t risk it. Now, that’s basically all I get about the war with Veii for 399 but if we switch our attention back to the city itself, it’s time for some more elections, Dr. G.

Dr G 25:58
Ooh, elections. Oh, that’s exciting.

Dr Rad 26:00
Getting ready for next year now, naturally, the patricians are not at all happy at this situation where there are more plebeians in power than patricians. Outrageous.

Dr G 26:11
Not only that, it sounds like the plebeians as military tribunes with consular power, have had some real military breakthroughs, like they have just run down the enemy in a couple of different directions. And pen some of the Venetians, or the Veii- and Veiantes, I should say – Venetians will make us confused about Venezia. We shouldn’t do that.

Dr Rad 26:30
And blinds

Dr G 26:31
Yeah, the people of Veii trapped on the outside of their own walls. So it seems like they’re doing okay without the patrician leadership in the top position.

Dr Rad 26:42
But notice that there are no named commanders in any of that.

Dr G 26:47
Well, is that, because the patricians who write down history would never deign to give them any credit?

Dr Rad 26:55
I’m entirely in agreement with you. Now, the reason why they have a problem, of course, is that they thought this whole situation was meant to be about sharing power, because sharing is caring. But the plebeians are being so greedy, taking over all the offices, it’s like they’re running the state.

Dr G 27:14
Yeah, you wouldn’t want to look at the previous year and the way that they’ve all been stacked with patricians to then be like, You know what? What is fair?

Dr Rad 27:23
Fair is when the patricians get their way. I thought that was very clear. So the patricians decide, All right, guys, we can’t be sleeping on this one. We’ve got to really put our best fancily shoed foot forward. And they therefore select the absolute best candidates that they have on offer, and the plebeians could not resist. They were just so sexy and so arrogant.

Dr G 27:55
Have you seen the way he lifts his toga above his knee? (growls)

Dr Rad 28:01
And they started campaigning for the patricians as though it was actually a plebeian candidate, because they’re idiots. Of course, teamwork equals dreamwork, guys.

Dr G 28:13
I am unhappy about this turn of events.

Dr Rad 28:15
I know plebeians are fools. Now, naturally, there’s probably also something going on here with the whole religious angle, a terrible winter pestilence, which was just mentioned summer. The gods are upset. Plague is clearly coming after all of this stuff, the Sibylline books indicated as much, and we can link it all back to the fact that they were plebeians in office.

Dr G 28:46
Oh, okay. Oh, that’s the explanation.

Dr Rad 28:48
That’s the explanation. I mean, everything’s been completely fine. There has never been a plague or a pestilence while patricians were in charge.

Dr G 28:55
Yeah, I mean, who would be surprised at this turn of events? Soon as you put plebeians in power, what do you got? Disaster. That’s what you got.

Dr Rad 29:04
That’s exactly it.

Dr G 29:05
Now the gods are unhappy.

Dr Rad 29:06
Yeah, well, that’s what the patricians have been saying all this time, haven’t they, Dr. G? They were like –

Dr G 29:11
It’s true. I mean, at least they’re consistent.

Dr Rad 29:12
Yeah. That’s why they didn’t want them to have the consulship, like, we can’t. It’s too risky, sacred. And now look what’s happened. We gave you something else, and even then you screwed it up. For everybody.

Dr G 29:25
The gods are so disappointed in us that we’re just going to have to go back to having some patricians in power.

Dr Rad 29:30
That’s pretty much it. So the plebeians are basically fainting in the streets. They’re going, oh my god, they’re blood. It’s just so blue! I can’t concentrate. And they were also really scared that something much worse was coming their way, because the gods were clearly ticked off with them, and so all patricians were elected for the following year. And that is all I have from Livy today.

Dr G 29:52
Oh interesting, I know well, so there is some nice synergy, I think, between Livy’s account and what Dionysius of Halicarnassus are bringing to the table. Admittedly, we’ve only got a fragment of Dionysius, and the idea of there being like the terrible summer versus the terrible snowstorm, seems like you know, minor details, but maybe they had both that would explain some of the tragedy here.

Dr Rad 30:17
I think we can all agree we’re not going to time travel back to 399.

Dr G 30:22
Oh, yeah, no, I don’t think I want to experience that weather system. Whatever was going on. There was a bit of a problem.

Dr Rad 30:29
Cause tonight we’re gonna party like it’s 399!

Dr G 30:34
I mean, I’m happy to follow Piso on this. I mean, like, let people have some fun for a change. Like, why? Why would that have to be wrong. I mean, come on. Admittedly, I haven’t delved into the scholarship on this, but I’m sure people have very good reasons why they they want Rome to be a more grumpy place than it currently is.

Dr Rad 30:50
I don’t think they’re denying the celebration or anything. I think they’re just questioning whether it was quite as extreme as Livy points out.

Dr G 30:57
Would you really free people? Would you really just let anybody into your house?

Dr Rad 31:03
It kind of seems like a recipe for disaster, that when things are going badly, you’re like, I know, let’s let the criminals loose through the street.

Dr G 31:11
Well, it’s not even that they’re criminals necessarily, at least in the account that we get from Dionysius. It’s slaves being manumitted.

Dr Rad 31:21
Really? I was wondering why you said slaves earlier. Okay, interesting.

Dr G 31:25
It’s not necessarily criminals at all, unless you consider that debt bondage could be one of the ways that you end up enslaved, which is possible and is considered a crime, but is a crime of circumstance, not a crime that you really go out of your way to commit.

Dr Rad 31:40
Talk about criminalizing the poor, Dr G.

Dr G 31:42
Yup exactly. We see it all in Rome. Whatever you thought about today, we’ve seen it in Rome. So we’ve got this lectisternium, and that is apparently the direct response to the Sibylline Oracle, suggesting, like, this is the course of action to take correct. So that’s the Greek connection that you’re talking about as well. So this idea that they’re borrowing from Greek ritual rites in order to see if that will make a difference. In this case, the idea that the couches of the gods are sacred is really important. So one of the things that we understand about the way the Romans were practicing religion in this period is that if you had a temple, and there would have been very few at this point in time, but the structures that you built to house statues of the gods weren’t the only part of the building that was very important. The couch itself, where the statue would sit, was also considered to be quite sacred. So this is a sacred banquet of sorts, because the couches involved have been consecrated in the same way that the buildings have been consecrated. So I think that’s an interesting detail that comes out through this as well. I think the choice of the gods is really interesting. I’m not sure what to make of it, but there’s some figures here that we haven’t really encountered very much before, but

Dr Rad 33:01
I think it’s all guesswork, to be honest. I mean, we know the names and people have suggested, well, maybe it’s because of this, maybe it’s because of that, but we don’t have anyone saying it’s because of this.

Dr G 33:10
Yeah, well, exactly, but it does give us a sense that the divine landscape that the Romans are operating in is broader than what we’ve previously really encountered in our written source material. Like we do know that there is a whole series of indigent Latin gods and sort of Italic gods, and they sometimes start to morph into these Greek figures that then become Roman figures. And this is already well happening by the time that we get to 399, so things like Apollo and Diana, Hercules, Mercury Neptune, these are all very familiar from a different context, cultural context. And maybe that’s part of the connection here as well, is that they’re taking from Greek rights, but they’re also prioritizing gods of their own that have a syncretism and overlap with Greek gods as well.

Dr Rad 34:07
All right? Dr G, well, with that being said, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick That’s right, listeners, this is the part of the episode where we get to rate Rome’s performance. How do we do it, Dr G?

Dr G 34:22
Well, there is a potential for Rome to win 50 golden eagles. So first of all, we have the five categories. They can score up to 10 in each category, and we will see how they go.

Dr Rad 34:37
All right, what’s our first category, Dr G?

Dr G 34:39
Military clout.

Dr Rad 34:40
Okay, I think we have something to work with here.

Dr G 34:43
Do we?

Dr Rad 34:45
excuse me? They escaped from a very dangerous enemy embrace.

Dr G 34:52
It sounds like they chased down people and murdered them

Dr Rad 34:56
After being attacked themselves.

Dr G 34:59
Fine. I think in this sort of situation, obviously, this siege has been going on for a while. This is by no means illegitimate war tactics. As far as the Romans are concerned, or their neighbors, if the situation had been reversed, we could almost guarantee that their neighbors would have behaved in the same way. I would say that this is probably a five.

Dr Rad 35:20
Yeah, I think it’s a five. It could have been bad. I mean, they could have been completely pinned in and not able to break out. And they managed to do it. And not only that, they managed to scare the little pence of those guys.

Dr G 35:32
Yeah, this does set things up for a poor morale outlook for they and their allies heading into the next campaign season.

Dr Rad 35:40
This is true. All right, what’s our next category, Dr G?

Dr G 35:43
Our second category is Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 35:46
Hmm, don’t really think so.

Dr G 35:48
I’m gonna say zero,

Dr Rad 35:50
Yeah, nothing’s happening on the outside and nothing’s happening on the inside.

Dr G 35:55
Any hints of diplomatic activity here,

Dr Rad 35:58
Although, again, I would say not their fault. Do did they try? Well, what are you supposed to do when you’re being attacked? Make them a mixtape.

Dr G 36:08
I mean, you could. These are some songs that remind me of you.

Dr Rad 36:13
All right, let’s move on. What’s our next category?

Dr G 36:15
Expansion.

Dr Rad 36:16
No.

Dr G 36:18
They’re trying, but no, yeah, they’re not really gaining territory. They’re doing some raiding, but it doesn’t sound like they’ve secured anything. So that’s a zero, yeah. That leads us into Virtus.

Dr Rad 36:29
Unfortunately, even though they apparently did so well in the battle, we don’t really have any moments that are singled out.

Dr G 36:37
Well, yeah, and because we don’t have individual names attached to some of these military feats, we don’t get a chance to really see virtus embodied. And the thing with virtus is it is about the person and the way that they’re embodying manliness from a Roman perspective. So if you don’t have a name attached to a commander or somebody in the field, doing the thing, then we can’t be sure about the virtus involved.

Dr Rad 37:05
Yeah, exactly. And that leads us to our final category, Dr G

Dr G 37:09
The Citizen Score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen?

Dr Rad 37:13
I’m so torn for all the reasons we’ve discussed, there’s a party, but it’s a party because things are really bad.

Dr G 37:19
It’s a party for those who survived and party, and everyone’s invited. But, you know, the cattle or died, that’s not great. It seems like the pestilence must be on the way.

Dr Rad 37:30
But it’s 399, whoo whoo

Dr G 37:34
And I suppose

Dr Rad 37:35
Plebeians in power.

Dr G 37:36
Oh yeah, that that is, that might be the saving grace here.

Dr Rad 37:39
Failing miserably.

Dr G 37:41
I don’t think they’re failing miserably. Didn’t they have huge military success.

Dr Rad 37:45
I think I just told you that all of this disaster is because of them, so…

Dr G 37:49
Oh, I see, taking the patricians’ side are we?

Dr Rad 37:53
Well, is there any other way to look at things?

Dr G 37:58
Okay, so the citizen score? Yeah, I’m focusing. I’m focusing. Is there anything good here for citizens? And I think the fact that we’ve got five of the six military tribunes with consular power coming from the plebeians, and they perform well in the battlefield despite what other propaganda might say about the failures of this year, and the need for patrician leadership only.

Dr Rad 38:23
It’s not propaganda when it’s the truth.

Dr G 38:26
I think we can say maybe about a three or a four for citizen score, just because they’ve got some representation in there, and the representation seems to go well,

Dr Rad 38:34
That’s true.

Dr G 38:34
Otherwise, it’s not a great time, because obviously these natural disasters seem to be quite severe and are leading to flow on consequences.

Dr Rad 38:42
But the partying and the slaves and the prisoners,

Dr G 38:45
Yeah, I mean, but you know, it’s like when you go to a wake at a funeral and it’s like, sure

Dr Rad 38:51
Ouch! I don’t know how the gods would feel about you characterizing their banquet in this way?

Dr G 38:56
I’m just saying there are times. There are times when people come together, and maybe it gets rowdy, depending on the wake. It really depends. But it’s, it’s a celebration through pain. And I think the same sort of situation is going on here,

Dr Rad 39:13
Ancient Rome, smiling through the pain. 399 BCE.

Dr G 39:18
Put that on the headstone.

Dr Rad 39:19
Oh yeah, that’s gonna be our next T-shirt, alright because not at all in niche to have it pinned down to one yeareveryone else has forgotten All right, so I agree with you. I would say I think probably a four.

Dr G 39:30
Okay.

Dr Rad 39:31
Okay, which means, Dr G, we have ended up with a grand total of nine Golden Eagles for Rome.

Dr G 39:37
Nine? Didn’t even crack double figures.

Dr Rad 39:41
Were you really expecting more when there were plebeians in the majority for the first time?

Dr G 39:47
No comment, really? Yeah. I feel like, you know, the patricians can stick it up their arse.

Dr Rad 39:51
Look. I kind of think of this like in Australia, the first time we had a female prime minister, it didn’t go so great. And…

Dr G 40:00
Well mostly because everybody decided that they really needed to be misogynistic all of a sudden.

Dr Rad 40:04
I’m not denying that, but I’m just saying, you know, when you’re the first I think sometimes things go badly.

Dr G 40:11
Wow, you got a feel for the guy from 400 then.

Dr Rad 40:13
Hey, the good news is we’re back to having all patricians all the time next year. Hey, hey, hey!

Dr G 40:19
yeah, yeah yay. Well, I look forward to seeing how poorly they do in power.

Dr Rad 40:29
Me too, secretly, me too. Don’t tell them I said that.

Dr G 40:38
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you’re one of our illustrious Patreon supporters. If you enjoy the show, we’d love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We’re on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon. Of course, our latest book, ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’, is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don’t want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome’s glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with’Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Welcome to another cheeky preview from our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire.

This chapter is a bit of a contrast to our first one on Spartacus. We turn from a rebel from the lowest ranks of society to one from the elite. We are journeying from the Roman Republic to the mid-Empire. Aaaaand we are travelling from Italy to the provinces.

For our next instalment, we tell you the tale of Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. Cleopatra reborn!

With a Rebel Yell – Zenobia’s Winning Strategy

Queen Zenobia addressing her soldiers by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo, courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

We hope that you enjoy it and would love to hear your thoughts.

If you haven’t pre-ordered a copy yet and you like the sound of it,  the details for the book can be found on our website.

Music by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The fifth century BCE in Rome is the century that saw the idea of the republic flourish and falter only to flourish again. The plebeians rose up to fight for their rights and to enjoy the fruits of their hard work on the battlefield. The patricians held on to their prestige and power with a vice-like grip and Rome began to expand their influence in the local region. At least that’s what our ancient sources believed!

Let’s review the 5th century BCE together. We’ll focus on the big themes, the ideas that were central to the century, and what was going on in the Struggle of the Orders. 

Episode 154 – The Fifth Century BCE in Review

It seems only fair to start with the year 509 BCE (so technically the end of the 6th century!) because that’s the year that the Romans finally booted out the kings and decided there had to be a better way to run the place. If you’re keen to go through the 5th century in ALL THE DETAIL, you’ll need to go back to our Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period that we recorded all the way back in 2015! Our detailed coverage of the 5th century BCE runs from Episode 45 all the way through to Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push Into Power. That’s 108 episodes on the 5th century BCE!

Touchstones of the 5th century BCE

We’ll be taking a bird’s eye look at the century that was with a focus on some key themes and developments. Tune in for a consideration of:

• The Introduction of the Dictator
• The Struggle of the Orders
• The First and Second Plebeian Secession
• The Introduction of the Tribune of the Plebs
• Trouble with the Etruscans and the Volscians and the Aequians and…!
• The Decemvirate and the Twelve Tables
• The Dream of Agrarian Reform
• The Military Tribune with Consular Power

Where to from here?

So after a turbulent first 100 years of the Roman Republic, what can we say for sure?

• There’s tensions between the haves and the have nots.
• The primary political power of Rome seems to be drawn from the gens, the extended family structure. This led to war bands like the Fabians taking it upon themselves to execute a war against their neighbours that they ultimately lost.
• Rome doesn’t have anything like a formal army. If you wanted to go to war you needed to convince people to sign up. They might be willing to do that in order to protect their own lands and gens, but they might not want to if it interfered with their own prerogatives. There is some suggestion that, at times, the issue of war service was forced through internal violence.
• A troubled time in the field or illness sweeping through the land could have devastating consequences. Plagues were a disaster – death and loss of life from illness could also have consequences for the next farming season. There’s plenty of tales from the 5th century that draw attention to the way that significant military losses or death from contagions resulted in famines the next year. Life was hard and there were no quick fixes.
• Rome isn’t a leader in the region – far from it. They seem to have had a great proclivity for pissing off most of their neighbours without always being able to back up their ambitions with talent. The Latins and Hernicians were their major allies in the 5th century but they were not looked upon fondly by many: the Etruscans, the Volscians, the Aequians, the Faliscans, the Sabines etc.
• The archaeological record across Italy in the 5th century suggests that the Romans were not the only people struggling. The Etruscan influence in Campania declined over the 5th century even while their power expanded in the northern region of the Po River. There seems to have been less foreign trade and more economic struggle. The Romans and their neighbours were fighting wars over scraps. 

What will the 4th century BCE bring for the development of Rome? Stay tuned to find out!  

Sound Credits

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds.

Léon Bénouville (1844) Cincinnatus.
The senators happen upon Cincinnatus while is he is busy farming sans shirt.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians I am, Dr G, and I’m joined by my long-going and fabulous co host:

Dr Rad 1:07
Dr Rad. How you doing, Dr G?

Dr G 1:10
I’m doing fabulously well. It’s always a good day when I get to sit down with you.

Dr Rad 1:14
I know, now look, you and I, we usually sit here and we hash out the narrative that is the history of Rome from the founding of the city. We look at different sources, we compare accounts. And to be honest, I think one thing that we are not particularly good on is like anniversaries and special episodes that sort of thing. We never really pay attention to how many episodes we pump out. And we don’t really do episodes to celebrate how many years we’ve been doing this, but we felt that we had to pause and celebrate today. Slow going as our narrative is,

Dr G 1:51
I think you mean thorough and detailed as our narrative is.

Dr Rad 1:54
It is, it is. Thorough and detailed. So today is a special episode, because the last time we spoke, we hit a century.

Dr G 2:05
Yeah, we’re about to tip into a whole new world in terms of the numbers. Whether that means anything for the Romans is anybody’s guess, but it certainly means something for us. So we’re about to switch away from the fifth century BCE, and we thought to ourselves, let’s just take a moment take stock of the situation. How far has Rome come in its first century as a republic?

Dr Rad 2:36
Exactly. So today is the most gigantic partial recap. If that even makes sense that we’ve ever done.

Dr G 2:44
I’m not even willing to call it a recap. It’s going to be bigger than that.

Dr Rad 2:49
Yeah, yeah, as we look at the fifth century.

Dr G 2:54
Yeah, so we started talking about the Roman Republic, which officially started in 509, ish, so just at the very end of the sixth century, and that was in Episode 45 which was called ‘The Last Gasp of the Regal Period’. And it was so long ago that it was in 2015.

Dr Rad 3:17
Jesus Christ.

Dr G 3:22
Are we going as slow as the Romans?

Dr Rad 3:25
We’re living it in real time, history unfolding before your very eyes.

Dr G 3:30
A little bit of history repeating…

Dr Rad 3:32
Exactly.

Dr G 3:33
And it has taken us 108 episodes to get from that point in time to the end of the fifth century BCE, which legitimately means that we’ve got an episode for just about every year that the Republic has been in existence so far.

Dr Rad 3:53
I was going to say that sounds astronomical, but when you think about it, should we be surprised? I mean, we do basically cover a year an episode. That’s kind of our thing.

Dr G 4:02
Well, that’s true and but sometimes we cover two years because there’s not much going on, and then sometimes so much is going on that we need to devote more than one episode to a single year. So this is, I think it’s a nice sort of like marry up a parallel at this point, to be in a situation where we’ve got as many episodes as they’ve been years basically, yeah, I think the fifth century BCE, the evidence has been pretty thin on the ground, really.

Dr Rad 4:35
And yet, somehow we fleshed it out into almost 10 years worth of podcasting.

Dr G 4:39
Incredible, incredible stuff. I think, yeah, it’s a high five for us. I’ll put in a sound effect there.

Dr Rad 4:45
Oh, definitely, yeah. So look, I have to say this as well. I think is something we needed to do because of the very nature of podcasting, particularly the way that you and I do it, whereas you say we do delve into the details, because when you’re doing a podcasting. Show the big difference between doing this and, say, writing a book on the fifth century BCE is that if you were writing a book, you would obviously sit down, you would research the whole period at once. It might take you a few years to actually come to grips with all the material, do all your research, pull it together into the structure that you want, and then you write it, and then it’s reviewed, etc, etc, right? Whereas with podcasting, it is quite different, because we are, we are looking very much at it unfolding in sort of real time, in that we’re not reading ahead that far, if, if at all. Sometimes we are just looking at the year that that was, and we are, we are definitely doing our research into interesting things that pop up as we look at the accounts, but we’re certainly not looking ahead. I think that’s kind of actually the nice part of it. We’re kind of as surprised as the Romans in that we’re like, oh, wow, that happened. Wasn’t expecting that. So that’s why, I think looking back now and trying to take it all in what we’ve covered over the last almost 10 years is kind of important, because now we can kind of look back and say, right, well, now we know everything that happened. What do we think of this century?

Dr G 6:10
Yeah, now that we’ve we’ve done every year conceivable that we could across this whole period of time, what can we take away from it? So this episode is more going to be like a discussion of some of the really big themes and events that occurred throughout this century, and just a sense of like, where we think things are at with Rome now that we’ve gotten to the end of this period and we’re about to tip into a whole new century. So if people come to this podcast in many years hence, and they’re like, I don’t know where to start with the fifth century. Come to this episode first before you go right back and listen to all of the others.

Dr Rad 6:50
You can, rebel, you. Rebel listeners, you can listen out of order. My God.

Dr G 6:56
The horror.

Dr Rad 6:57
The horror. I have to say, I actually enjoyed this century a lot more than I thought I would. And that’s another reason why I think it’s actually important to talk about it, because it it is a bit of a forgotten century. I feel, you know, people talk about skipped over, yes, yeah. People talk about that very, very early stuff where the Republic is founded, which is obviously so key, because people care so much about the Roman Republic, people like to talk about it a lot, but then I feel like people just zoom straight ahead to like the Punic Wars, or maybe the Samnite wars, or even, dare I say it, the fall of Veii. Spoilers!

Dr G 7:37
Which still has not happened yet for us.

Dr Rad 7:39
I know, I know, but they don’t pay attention to the stuff that happens. And actually, I’m like, wow, this actually tells us so much about the way, the way that the Romans wrote their history, the way that they conceptualize themselves. I actually see this as being kind of foundational. Now I’m so glad that we did actually go through year by year.

Dr G 7:58
Yeah, and I think there is a real pleasure in the slow reading of material that we’ve engaged in as well. So this is something that as a working historian, you sometimes don’t get the luxury of doing just sitting with a text for a really long period of time and going through it really slowly. You want to be able to do that, but often what you’re called to do in the profession is to dig into things quite quickly, come to grips with stuff really fast, and then find the key pieces that will really help you say the things that you’re hoping to bring together to search for the hypothesis. And that really slow, close reading, and close rereading, is kind of fundamental to the pleasure of doing history, but it is also something that sometimes you don’t get to do quite as much as you’d like to, like you might be prepping to teach, or you might be trying to finish off an article, and all those sorts of things are pressured deadlines, which means that slow reading engagement is something that you might have to build into your spare time, and we’ve been really fortunate to be able to do that within the context of producing a podcast together.

Dr Rad 9:09
Completely agree, I tend to dip in an out of source material, if I’m writing an article or writing a book, and just finding the stuff that I absolutely have to read because there is a deadline looming, and I need to get through things as quickly as possible. So yeah, I think this is something that is unusual, and yet should be such a key part of what it is that historians do. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. All right. Dr, G, so you have very kindly put together a highlights reel for us here, which we’re going to explore. So why don’t you tell me what stood out to you, looking back on the fifth century BC as a defining theme.

Dr G 9:48
I think one of the first things that I think is worthy of mention is that we have the introduction of the role of dictator. So this is something that fundamentally you can. Not have under a monarchy, it doesn’t really work like that. The king’s in charge. The king does all the things. They’re both the spiritual leader and the military leader and the judicial person. Those functions really get split up and broken away and sort of hived off in different directions. As we head into the republic, people see the monarch as somebody who has way too much of various powers, and that needs to be dealt with. Having said that, though the early republic of Rome is a messy place, and they’re trying to do something new with their government, and they’re not really sure quite if it’s working or not, and sometimes they do get themselves into a bit of a spot of bother. Sometimes that relates to their relationship with the gods, sometimes that relates to the military, sometimes that relates to judicial matters. And in times of real need, all of a sudden they’re like, well, might be good to have one person really in charge and just in charge for a small amount of time. And this is where the idea of the dictator sort of comes into play. They’ve got various roles that they can fulfill, but the idea is that they definitely have to step down. It is a temporary position, and they must step down once they’ve fulfilled their mandate. So I think this is fundamental to the nature of the fifth century BCE, because Rome sort of harks back to the kings without necessarily returning to the kings at times.

Dr Rad 11:33
Absolutely, I agree. I think that if you were to open a popular history of Rome. And there was anything on this period which a would shock me, but let’s pretend that this is happening. It would very much tell you that in 509 BCE, the last king of Rome was expelled. The Romans vowed never to have kings again, and they introduced this new system, which was structured like this. One thing that you and I have really seen, whilst going into the details of this, is how much of a lie that is.

Dr G 12:07
Can you imagine having a whole group of people just being like, we’re not doing it that way anymore, and then having completely smooth transition into a unknown, completely new, shiny system that they’ve made up on the spot, basically, and it not having any issues whatsoever. It’s just unrealistic.

Dr Rad 12:28
Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I don’t know why that actually even surprises us. Anybody who’s been through a restructure of any company or institution that you work at. We all know it takes years, years to figure that kind of stuff out. It takes all sorts of HR management. It takes people having tantrums. It takes clashes, it takes complaints. It is a complicated process, and that is in the modern age. I don’t know why we’d think that the ancient world would be so much more seamless.

Dr G 13:00
It’s certainly not seamless, and it doesn’t take them very long to sort of hit a snag in this new republic of theirs.

Dr Rad 13:08
No, no, it doesn’t at all.

Dr G 13:09
The first traditional dictator is a guy called Titus Larcius Flavus, and he’s brought in in 498, BCE, so the Republic isn’t even a decade old, no, so it’s an issue. They’re like, uh oh, we need somebody, and his job, basically, is to deal with the lingering supporters for the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, that man who doesn’t want to die, doesn’t want to go away, would still like to be king, really? Oh, yeah, and he does have factional support, so it’s a bit like, look, any politician that you really don’t like that just keeps returning and keeps trying to get themselves back into power. Tarquinius Superbus is your man.

I’m sure I don’t know what you mean. Dr, G.

I’m not name dropping. I’m not going to date this podcast.

Dr Rad 14:05
Yeah, it’s 2024, where would we be seeing that kind of thing happening?

Dr G 14:10
No idea. So they call up this Titus Larcius Flavus to deal with this situation. And in addition to that, there seems to be some broad issues with the Sabines, which are Rome’s neighbors to the east, up in the hills. So there’s unrest politically. You know, we’ve got some monarchical elements still at play. We’ve got the neighbors of Rome causing a bit of an issue. And so he gets out his lictors. He gets to have a lot of lictors. They get to have their fasces with the axes, which makes everybody a little bit perturbed. And Bob’s your uncle. We’ve got our first dictator.

Dr Rad 14:53
I know. And I kind of love the idea that, however, this system came together, the Romans eventually, basically. Had a built in band aid for their world, literally, a band aid solution.

Dr G 15:08
Having a terrible time? Not sure what to do now? Quick, appoint somebody dictator! So there had to be an agreement about who the dictator would be. That was pretty important. And there is an outlying, even earlier contender to be the first dictator. Scholars tend to not be sure about this one, though, so he doesn’t usually get the name this guy, Manlius Valerius Volsesi, was apparently a player in 501 BCE, but the sauces are pretty thin on the ground, so that one’s usually dismissed. But then we have, like, some really stand out figures and the most famous dictator, and shout out to our fans in Cincinnati. This guy takes the cake in the fifth century, we have Cincinnatus as dictator, and he holds the role twice, which is phenomenal stuff.

Dr Rad 16:09
Yeah, and that’s on top of his other positions that he holds, not to mention his family’s general domination of politics in the latter half of the fifth century BCE.

Dr G 16:21
Yeah, they’re a pretty phenomenal family, and he does not want to be dictator, for sure, he’s busy, if I recall rightly, farming without his shirt on. When they come and find him.

Dr Rad 16:33
Who could forget that scene?

Dr G 16:36
I’d never forget a scene like that. And he was so good at the job and resolving the crisis at that point in time that about 30 years later, or maybe 20 years later, they called him up to be dictator again, by which time, he was a crotchety old man and even more grumpy than he was the first time. And he’s like, are you sure you don’t want to pick a younger man for this? He must have been in his 70s or 80s by that time, and he very reluctantly became dictator again.

Dr Rad 17:09
But this is, I love Cincinnatus as something to talk about, because, as we’ve said before, but bears repeating now, because the fifth century BC is a little murky with source material. I think it’s very much still one of those periods that the sources that we’re mostly consulting, that were written later are looking back to for exemplars, and Cincinnatus, I’m sure probably did historically exist, that’s not to say that he is a myth. However, I do think that his life the way that he conducts himself, it does become an exemplar that later Romans will reach back to as their perfect man, someone who’s rural, rustic, embraces those traditional values of hard work and discipline and does not want to hold on to power. Because, as we’ve said many a time, this is the ultimate man. The dream man for the Romans is someone who is really good at exercising power but doesn’t actually want it.

Dr G 18:11
Oh yeah, you can, you can almost feel Cato the Elder loving this guy from a couple of centuries hence. That sense of being tied to the land is a very fundamental concept of the early, mid and even late republic, the idea that a true Roman is centered in the farm, somehow, in that rustic landscape, not in the urban environment where the politics is happening and yeah, Cincinnatus is ticking all of those reluctant leader boxes.

Dr Rad 18:46
Absolutely. Um, do you mind if I get political for a moment? So I know that, I know this is going to put a timestamp on this episode, which is not ideal, but I can never resist it whilst, whilst, obviously, it’s not exactly the same. I do think that there is also still something about maybe certain people these days where we are a little suspicious of anyone who’s too keen to hold power, even in our own time. And whilst I certainly would not say that I approve or agree with everything Joe Biden did as President of the United States of America, there is something to be said for somebody who, okay, admittedly, after a lot of pressure, did at least step down when it was clear that him being in that position was no good for anyone anymore. It is not a perfect scenario in that there certainly had to be a gigantic amount of pressure put on him before he took that step. So I’m certainly not holding him up as a paragon of virtue in that respect, but there is something to be said for somebody who does at least eventually read the room and realize that it’s time to go.

Dr G 19:58
Wow.

Dr Rad 19:59
Yeah, which is not something that can be said for everyone.

Dr G 20:04
That is true, and we’ll get to a couple of examples of people who do not know how to read the room in the fifth century BCE in this episode, for sure.

Dr Rad 20:14
Anyway, all right, so the next thing is something that we have spent many hours of our lives talking about. So how could anyone forget? Not going to surprise our listeners here, but the Struggle of the Orders, Dr G.

Dr G 20:26
And boy, is it a struggle. It just keeps on happening.

Dr Rad 20:30
It definitely does. So certainly, the fifth century BCE is the time where we see the kickoff, something that will actually last for a couple of 100 of years, which is the patricians and the pabeans, these apparent classes that exist in ancient Rome and are consistently at loggerheads with each other. And it flares up and it dies down periodically. It depends what’s happening, but it’s always there lurking around the corner. I don’t think we could probably go more than – ooh, I’m gonna say one or two years, really – without some mention of something happening between the patricians and the plebeians.

Dr G 21:11
Yes. And I think the major issue that we’ve returned to many times and bears repeating is that the historicity of this conflict is really open to question. Who are the patricians? Who are the plebeians? It’s not at all clear we don’t have enough good, solid, independent evidence outside of our written source material that was produced much later to give us some insight into what is going on here. So it does make it really hard to know whether we’re on firm ground with this. The idea that there would be social and political tensions in any state, particularly as it’s starting to grow and expand, and particularly since they’ve just changed their system of government seems a reasonable assumption, and what shape that really took is kind of anybody’s guess at that point. But this Struggle of the Orders, is it flares up in a number of ways across this century, and we’ll get into more detail on that. It’s a big deal, and it seems to be positioned very much in our source material as the elite faction within the social structure of Rome is very much trying to push its own agenda. And obviously they have the power and the platform to do that, and this leaves the people who are locked outside of that pretty frustrated a lot of the time.

Dr Rad 22:43
Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. I think that’s why it’s been so appealing, actually, to look at it, particularly with the world scenarios that we face these days, the idea of powerful people managing to establish such a domination on the institutions that control everyone’s lives and the frustration that comes with that, I think we can very much sympathize with that. I think that’s been very clear in the way that we’ve talked about it.

Dr G 23:14
Yes, yes,

Dr Rad 23:16
Yeah, it’s not that we don’t know how things work, which sometimes seems to be the case in the conflict of the orders, like it sometimes seems like there is some sort of knowledge or oral tradition or training or something that is at stake here, where only certain people maybe are familiarized with that or know it really well, and that that may be part of the frustration. But even once that issue is somewhat resolved, it definitely is this frustration of like a lack of representation, a lack of access to certain parts of the state. So whilst we might not necessarily feel confident in who the patricians are, who the plebeians are, we certainly wouldn’t want to suggest that there isn’t some sort of power struggle happening in ancient Rome in the fifth century BCE. It might just be that the way that our later sources choose to explain it, it maybe reflects a little bit more of events closer to their own time than what was actually happening. And that’s why it seems a bit dubious. But certainly they’re probably very aware that there was some sort of power struggle going on within Rome, within certain factions. We just can’t be certain who made up those factions, and sometimes it feels like that story is being projected onto maybe a fairly bare bones account. And so they’re like, I can’t quite make sense of this. I know it must have something to do with the Struggle of the Orders!

Dr G 24:35
Guess what, guys? It’s the struggle and fair enough. And this leads us into a couple of really big ticket events that take place in the fifth century, which is the first and the second plebeian secession,

Dr Rad 24:49
Ah, yes.

Dr G 24:49
where, this idea that the have nots get so completely frustrated with their inability to be able to. To produce something in this new republic that actually helps them, supports them in their difficult lives, that they decide it’s easier to up sticks and go somewhere else and leave all of those elite, Fancy Pants patrician people to rule over each other in without the plebeians having to be involved. And it doesn’t seem to take very long. So we talk about the way that we have the first dictator in about 498 and then only four years later in 494 so we’re less than 20 years into the Republic. At this point, it seems that certain people have gotten so jack of this system that they’re like, it’s time to go somewhere else. Let’s leave Rome. We’ve been here for a while. I don’t want anything more to do with it. And so they leave what is the urban boundary of Rome, which is determined by the pomerium, and they go and head out to a place known as the Mons Sacer, “the sacred mount”, sometimes also referred to as the Aventine. But they might be different places, and it’s this moment where they seem to decide that they need their own representation as well. They need people to negotiate on their behalf, because the patricians aren’t satisfied with this situation. They’re like, what are you doing? Running away. We need you. We need you. And they’re like, Well, you need to treat us better. So it’s a bit like an abusive relationship.

Dr Rad 26:30
It does feel that way.

Dr G 26:32
It does feel that way. And what the plebeians do is they nominate a couple of people to represent their interests. So they kind of like, go for like, you can talk to our lawyers. Okay, don’t talk to me. Talk to my lawyers. And these two people become the start of what will be known as the tribune of the plebs.

Dr Rad 26:54
Very important.

Dr G 26:54
Very important.

Dr Rad 26:56
And this is really interesting as well, because we talked obviously about the dictator coming into play in this century, but this is obviously the century when we see the tribune of the plebs come into play, which remains a really important and unusual position in Rome’s history for different reasons at different times. Obviously it shifts with with each century, but certainly it becomes a real bug bear in the quarrels between the patricians and the plebeians, because the patricians really regret ever giving into this. They’re like, damn it. They really had me over a barrel, and I wish I’d never agreed to that. And they’re constantly trying to think of ways to either undermine this office or actually get their hands on it so that they can presumably dominate that as well.

Dr G 27:41
Kind of horrifying. Very like, Okay, you have representation, but how can we ruin that for you? So it doesn’t interfere with our…

Dr Rad 27:48
We should have never given you that representation!

Dr G 27:50
I have regrets.

Dr Rad 27:54
Regrets, I have a few.

Dr G 27:58
A patrician refrain for the ages.

Dr Rad 28:01
I was gonna say “My Way” seems a very fitting song for the patricians. I think that’s kind of why the plebians are always so upset.

Dr G 28:07
It does make an awful lot of sense.

Dr Rad 28:09
Yeah.

Dr G 28:09
So we have this situation where the in the first secession, the plebeians are convinced to return. It does take some negotiation. They’re like, all right, but you know, we need to have this political representation. We need these tribune of the plebs. Now, all of this is kind of up for grabs in terms of the source material as well. We certainly are not sure about most things to do with this century, but these are the tales that our source material, like Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are suggesting, Dionysius of Halicarnassus are suggesting, and you have some smoothing over of all of this, but problems do bubble under the surface, and that’s what the struggle of the orders is really suggesting, that this is an ongoing process of struggle between These groups, and it all comes to a head again in 449, BCE, which is the second plebeian secession, where everyone’s like, just no, just no. And this is also a controversial situation as well, because at this stage, the republic is not smoothly functioning at all really. They’re under the leadership of a group called the decemvirate so things have gotten a little bit out of hand, and this will tie into some other things as well as we get further into this. But essentially, people are interested in knowing exactly what the laws are in this place, and it seems like some people have been keeping the laws a bit secret. They haven’t been written down properly. They’re not in a public, accessible place, so you can’t just go and find out what the laws are for yourself. Usually, what seems to happen is you try to do something. Thing as a citizen of Rome, somebody more powerful or important than you tells you that you’re not allowed to do that, and in fact, you’ve broken the law, and you didn’t even know that there was a law about that. So there’s a real frustration coming through that, well, if this place has laws, surely everyone needs to know what they are, and this is where they decide to establish something like the decemvirate, which is a group of 10 men, and we’ll get into more detail about them later, but they’re supposed to be putting together a publicly accessible law record. So that’d be nice, but it’s not going well. The plebeians decide they need to secede again. They run away. They head to the Aventine and to the Capitolione Hills. And this really forces another negotiation moment with the elite class. And so there’s this whole situation again, where the patricians have to, sort of, you know, make some concessions. It’s not ideal. They don’t want to, but everybody’s threatening to leave them. So they’re like, Okay, maybe I need to talk to them.

Dr Rad 31:08
It took quite a few diamond tennis bracelets and red roses to win them back.

Dr G 31:12
Well, look, you know, some paid lunches would really be helpful right now.

Dr Rad 31:17
But this is these two secessions are actually the perfect example of how we’ve got the this larger narrative being used to tie together events which may have been quite separate, because the first secession is really about debt, about the fact that with all the warfare happening on top of just the general inequality and hardship that is life in ancient Rome at that point in time, people are really struggling to hang on to what little they have, because they’re constantly away fighting things fall into neglect. They fall into debt. It just becomes a vicious cycle where eventually they find themselves, you know, enslaved for debt in some cases, and they’re not happy about that. The second secession comes about because of the law about the laws. As you said, people wanting things to be written down so that they don’t, you know, find themselves, you know, someone running up to something going, oh, a black cat crossed your path on a Sunday. That’ll be 10 sesterces. Not that that would happen. That’s ridiculous in our every circumstances. But the law about the laws is the key to the decemvirate, so it’s a totally different issue, on top of which it’s also about the fact that the second decemvirate doesn’t let go of their power, that is a trigger, and they’re abusing their power. So it’s also relating to those sorts of issues, so seemingly quite different reasons to secede if we do believe that the second secession happened, but they are, they are both tied together as being examples of this larger conflict of the orders. And maybe our sources are a bit wrong about that. Maybe there are just different points of political social tension in ancient Rome, and it just seems like there’s a larger narrative going on here.

Dr G 32:58
Yeah, perhaps this is a view from hindsight, as we can often talk about as historians. It’s like you have to be really careful when thinking about any event in time and how it might be interconnected or not with the things that happen afterwards. You don’t want to get ahead of yourself too much. I’m not sure that Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are necessarily as concerned about things like that.

Dr Rad 33:25
But I have a feeling they’re not.

Dr G 33:27
That certainly adds some complexity to what we can know about this century. So we’ve talked about the introduction of the tribune of the plebs as being related in part to this Struggle of the Orders. And what we also see, or what is also suggested in our source material, is that although they start out with two representatives, this does expand over the course of the century, until we get to about 10 later on. So part of what makes the tribune of the plebs really special is the fact that their body is considered to be inviolable in the time that they’re holding the role. And this means that in times of physical danger, citizens can run up to them and sort of hold on to the tribune, if you like, sort of seek physical protection, and because the tribune is considered to be inviolable, they are able to physically protect citizens. Now this seems like a really kind of specific thing, but if you think about what would life have been like in the early urban Roman state, where some people are allowed to carry sticks by permission and some people are not, you might think to yourself, well, sometimes you need to run away from the guys with the cudgels and find some safety with somebody who’s designated as inviolable you cannot produce. Violence against them. So that’s the thing. So I think when we think about Rome, obviously it comes to mind as this kind of like militaristic, powerful empire. But in this early period of history, we can start to see these really early, tangible signs of the kind of physical violence that’s always at play in its political landscape, even amongst themselves. So the fact that to be a magistrate means you do get to have a bodyguard, and you can push people out of the way, and if things are going really badly, you can hit people suggest that this is a pretty rough and ready place, and having somebody who is able to offer physical protection to people who are outside of the elite becomes a really important force, and we seem to think that it develops in this century.

Dr Rad 35:52
I have to say, thinking about the tribune of the playoffs at this moment in time, it does make ancient Rome sound like a gigantic game of cops and robbers, and robbers and the tribune of the plebs is the safe you know, like, when you used to play that game, when you were little, you’d be like, safe. I’m safe. Can’t touch me. I’m safe.

Dr G 36:08
Yup yup. I found the person. Tap it.

Dr Rad 36:11
Yeah, but it does, as you say, it kind of highlights just how small scale all of this must have been violent, but small scale, because if you just have two guys who are the safe points. It wouldn’t really work if Rome was gigantic.

Dr G 36:25
Yeah, you would hope that it’s a small place, because that doesn’t seem like enough people to offer protection.

Dr Rad 36:32
No, it does not. I also feel kind of bad for the tribunes. I feel like they would receive a lot of very sweaty, panicky hugs.

Dr G 36:39
Wow. You know,

Dr Rad 36:40
Tasty.

Dr G 36:42
Thank you. Yes, I’ll save you, just don’t touch me. And the patricians aren’t very happy about this. This would seem.

Dr Rad 36:52
No.

Dr G 36:53
It’s a problem. They didn’t really want to allow this. They had to. They were forced into this, and so they are often seeking to bring down the tribune of the plebs from within, it would seem, either through bribery, outright threats, or even worst of all, trying to co opt themselves into the roles so that they also are a tribune of the plebs and can whittle things away from the inside in that sense. So there is a sense in which the tribune of the plebs is always a little bit contentious and also a little bit exposed at all times to whatever the patricians are up to.

Dr Rad 37:37
I do love that idea that the patricians are like, yeah. I mean, it’s totally legit for me to represent plebeian interests and be attributed with the plebs as a patrician. Like, what’s the problem, guys?

Dr G 37:46
I’m interested in your best interests. I’m interested in all our best interests,

Dr Rad 37:52
Conflicting interests? I don’t know what you mean! The height of absurdity. So Dr, G, I believe if people want to go back and listen to our very first episode covering the tribune of the plebs, they have to go all the way back to Episode 59 which we called “Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs”.

Dr G 38:12
I’m glad we’ve got this very, very logical naming system. Easy to find what you’re looking for, guys.

Dr Rad 38:20
Indeed.

Dr G 38:21
We talk about the children of the plebs a lot.

Dr Rad 38:22
Yeah. Now, of course, it’s not all internal drama by any means. In Rome in the fifth century, if anything, this is the century that Rome starts to really put itself on the map. I think I mean the Regal period, sure, but it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit more mythical, dare I say legendary? It’s a little hard to know what’s going on in that time period. So there’s certainly not a predominant power at any point in this century. They are not the Rome that gets made into glorious movies like Gladiator.

Dr G 38:57
Certainly not.

Dr Rad 38:58
But we do see some really interesting interactions with them and other major powers in Italy at this point in time. So we of course have the Etruscans to the north, very influential culture on Rome itself. There’s a lot of interchange there, but also, you know, some conflict. And then we also have the Sabines to the east. They are major players in the fifth century, not quite as much, though, as the aequians and the volscians who are to the south and the Southeast. Oh, if I had $1 for every time I’d said the Aequians and the Volscians, Dr, G.

Dr G 39:38
You would be able to retire right now.

Dr Rad 39:40
I could be a podcaster full time. It’d be amazing. Let’s set up that system.

Dr G 39:45
Yes, I think so. So yeah, Rome is small. It is not predominant in its region necessarily. It seems to be engaging in back and forth conflict. With all of its neighbors. And the fifth century, within the broader terms of what we know about Italy itself, the whole the whole kit and caboodle from north to south, that whole peninsula across this century, it seems to be a century where nobody is really flourishing as much as they have done previously.

Dr Rad 40:22
That is true, yeah.

Dr G 40:23
So the Etruscans seem to have this really sort of thriving trading culture, and they have an influence that spreads all the way into Campania so south of Rome in the sixth century, and that seems to really be curtailed in the fifth century. So they start to lose their foothold in the south, and they start to expand a little bit more and flourish more in the north. So if you think about where the Po River is, they’re doing quite well up there in the fifth century, but where Rome is in the center of Italy, the Etruscans aren’t doing so well, and it’s becoming that that’s their lowest threshold, like the lowest point into Italy, that they are able to retain any control. They lose that influence in Campania. And so that’s all happening. You’ve got the situation in Magna Graecia, where, again, the archeological record suggests that the trading has really slowed down, that you’ve got a lot of infighting between peoples who are from ancestral Greek colonist backgrounds with people from Italic backgrounds. So there starts to be some more internal fighting going on, and the trade network sort of falling away a little bit, and Rome sort of comes through in this era, but we don’t see them flourishing in particular in this century, and they actually have a lot of trouble in certain moments. There’s some good 10 year periods in this century where it seems like they’re getting sort of hit by plague, or they’re going back and forwards against the Volscians and the Aequians, but the next year they lose, and the next year they win, and they’re just sort of fighting over the same bits of territory and the same bits of booty, and it doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. So Rome isn’t preeminent by any means. They have a couple of friends in the region, but they also are struggling with a foothold, and we do get this sense that one of the ways that warfare operates in this century seems to be through the framework of the family. So the gens is a really important mechanism for military power, and the one that really stands out is the Fabian gens in this century, because they’re nearly completely wiped out through their conflict with the Etruscan outpost of Cremera to the north in around about 477 BCE. So they have this huge problem where they lose almost every eligible man who could continue their patriarchal line in this moment. And so we get the sense that warfare isn’t just about elite people trying to levy an army together, but it is about families determining what their interests are and where they might want to send their own personal war band.

Dr Rad 43:28
And I think that this leads so much into the politics that we’ve just been talking about as well. I think with military power obviously being so crucial to Rome survival at this point in time, forget about thriving, just survival against all these other rival powers. With that military backbone being so crucial, it makes sense that we also see the genses being so crucial in political life as well, and certain families being more dominant than others, the networks, you know, the patron client relationships that kind of start to spring up. It’s very futile when we look at it. And that’s where I think the chaos comes from as well, because it is about whether these families, I think, actually have the ability to follow through in a military sense, not just a political sense. And that’s why I think that there’s a little bit more chaos to it than you might otherwise be led to believe where it’s like, well, the republic was founded, and this is how it worked. And, you know, this is how it operated.

Dr G 44:28
Yeah, so the sense that there is, like, this chaotic, familial element that is at the heart of Roman politics, I think, is a really useful idea to take away from the fifth century, because it is going to continue. We’re going to see the rise of different gentes over time, and that’s part and parcel of the way that Roman politics is centered in the extended family in really particular ways. So obviously you have an expanding range of magisterial positions that occur as we go through time in the fifth century. We’re not entirely sure about how complex that structure is, but there’s some and it’s going to get more complex, but certainly we see patterns of families coming into these roles, and it seems to be the case that there is a sense of trust that if a family has held a position before, then they kind of have an experience that will be useful for the next person in their family who comes into that role. So families build reputations within this republican structure in a way that may have not been possible in a monarchical system, but we also see that warband element, so we can’t forget the way that family is operating here, and maybe it is having more of an effect than we’re really aware of. The Struggle of the Orders might be repositioned as something like struggles amongst gentes, for instance.

Dr Rad 46:00
Yeah, definitely. And I think it also makes sense that if we look at the archeological record, and I know this is something we flagged in our detailed episodes, but it makes sense that this would be a century of strife and highs and lows. If we can see in the archeological record that most societies in Italy are struggling at this point in time. You know, there’s even scholars who will write about this thing of the fifth century crisis. So we know that whenever humans are just natural, isn’t it that if you’re put in a difficult position, there’s higher stress in terms of either the cost of your living or having access to certain resources that you need, it’s only natural that you’re going to be more aggressive, perhaps more ready to fight with other people and other groups. It just makes sense. That’s why people are obviously. It’s one of the many reasons why, in this day and age, in 2024 people are so concerned about the effect that climate change is going to have, because it is going to reduce our resources, and it is going to increase our cost of living. So it’s all very well and good to hark back to good old days when none of this was a problem. But that’s not a political problem, you know, you can, you can look back on, you know, things 20, 30, years ago and think, oh, wow, we had it really good back then. I’m going to, you know, think about the politics back then and try and return to that era. That’s not what this is about environmental issues, which, you know, going back to that political party, isn’t going to change. And so to me, it makes so much sense, because what we see in our own time period, I think, is emblematic of what they’re going through. You know, it’s just, it’s just about pressure, stress, all those same sorts of things, human, behavior, I don’t think changes that much in these sort of broader areas that we’re looking at.

Dr G 47:44
Yeah, and I think this is one of the keys to thinking about this state of lack of flourishing, if you like, it’s environmental, and this has consequences for the culture.

Dr Rad 47:57
Yeah.

Dr G 47:57
You can see that playing out pretty clearly for the Romans in this period, like they are on struggle street, and there’s various ways that they try to deal with that, one of which is this decemvirate that I flagged earlier. You know, it’s tough. So by the mid fifth century, BCE, so 452, nobody seems to be particularly happy in Rome. Maybe it’s to do with the dominance of certain elite folk. Maybe it’s to do with the ongoing year on year wars that seem to be coming up and dragging on. But there does become a sense of concern around this idea that the laws are just not explicitly known, and a codification of them would be an important step. This pressure has been building for a while, and this eventually culminates in the creation of the “decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis”, the 10 men with consular imperium for writing down the laws.

Dr Rad 49:07
Romans really have to work on their catchy titles for things.

Dr G 49:11
We can call them the decemvirs, I think that’s easier. So they effectively replace the consulship for a short while. And I don’t know.

Dr Rad 49:19
Well, all magistracies, isn’t it? Like, basically, there are no – I thought it was the case that they were like no magistracies apart from – and that’s why it was such a big step, because they had to hand over everything to these guys. It wasn’t it because there was, like, no place of appeal?

Dr G 49:34
Yes. But also, do we have other magistrates?

Dr Rad 49:38
Well, that’s the question.

Dr G 49:41
So I wasn’t I was considering opening the thorny door of, do we even have consuls? But I’m gonna leave that mostly shut.

Dr Rad 49:49
Don’t rain on my parade of imaginary magistrates!

Dr G 49:53
There are some people who used to be in charge in Rome, and now they have been replaced by these 10 men who have a singular job. Their job is to write down the laws, and that would be fine. You got to get the codification. You got to get it done. This is going to become the Twelve Tables, which is exciting, but the project takes way longer than anybody is expecting, and it’s important that they’re given consular imperium as well, because this means that if they need to take a break from the codification of the laws and go and fight a war instead, they have the legitimate authority to do that too. So things take longer than anybody thought they would. One wonders, if they’re being delayed deliberately? Isn’t it nice to be in power? Isn’t it nice for you and nine of your buddies to be swatting about in charge of this place and not really have to give it up until you get the job done? But what if you do? Yeah, what if it takes your whole life to get that job done? So anyway, in 450 it’s decided that there needs to be a second decemvirate. So the first one sort of dragged on a little bit too long, at least twice as long as expected, because they thought it would only take a year, but it’s taken at least two and they’re like, okay, we need to get a second group of these guys. And we really need to finish this task. And the second group is really the choice pick of a guy called Appius Claudius. So he stands out as the preeminent figure in this time period. He has enough charisma and enough tszuj that everyone’s like, well, he should be in charge of that second decemvirate. So he handpicks it basically, and has all of his buddies brought in, and then they all start behaving badly, I think might be the nice way of putting it.

Dr Rad 51:49
To the surprise of nobody who knows the Claudian family.

Dr G 51:54
The Claudian family does have a reputation. Remember this, it is going to become important over and over again.

Dr Rad 52:03
It will, it will different branches and yet.

Dr G 52:06
And yet, yeah, they can’t help themselves. He ends up ruining some innocent lives. And it’s only after a supreme act of violation of Verginia, who is a plebeian woman that the Roman senate who standing off in the background, just a bunch of old men being like, yeah, I don’t know if we should let him do this anymore. They finally are persuaded that the decemvirate needs to be dealt with.

Dr Rad 52:38
And the murder of Dentatus. Dr G, everyone forgets the murder of Dentatus, “the man with teeth”.

Dr G 52:44
The murder of Dentatus is still etched in my soul, because I will never be over the grief. Let’s make that clear. Dentatus did so much, and how was he repaid? Terribly. So eventually, the decemvriate is shut down, we get what we think is their work in the fragments that remain of the Twelve Tables. And it is a bonkers text. So it does seem like maybe the patricians were making up some laws because it’s chaotic out there.

Dr Rad 53:15
Yeah, but it’s so fundamental, isn’t it? It’s such a big deal whenever a society gets to this point where they’re like, right? We’re codifying the laws, and we’re going to write them down this time.

Dr G 53:25
Once and for all, people will know what’s going on. And boy, absolutely did you want to know less about fruit trees.

Dr Rad 53:32
Well, that’s just it. That what we have left of the Twelve Tables, we do have a bit, but it is still somewhat fragmentary, in spite of its immense importance, apparently, to Roman society.

Dr G 53:42
Yeah, very fragmentary. A lot to do with understanding where the borders are between you and your neighbor’s property, and the sorts of things that pertain to what is okay to do if you find something on the wrong side of the fence. And yes, exactly you know, can you drop down the branches? And it’s like, sometimes you can.

Dr Rad 54:03
And this is the Roman dream, Dr G, to have your own land. Which brings me to one of the other big themes of this century, apparently, the dream of agrarian reform. So along with the law about the laws, yeah, law about the laws, issues over debt. This is probably the completes, the trio, I think, of the top plebeian demands in the Struggle of the Orders. It’s a little tricky to understand this, because if we look at what the sources say it is the fact that there is public land, the “ager publicus”, apparently.

Dr G 54:40
Apparently.

Dr Rad 54:41
And it is not always being used in a fair manner. We think that, according to our sources, the elites are perhaps controlling it overly much, instead of it being held in common use for all the citizens. Now we’ve always struggled with this storyline, because it just seems so much like the issues that arise in the late republic and are super controversial at that time period. And this is involves, for those of you who know a little bit about Roman history, the famous Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus. They get swept up in these issues of land reform in the late republic. But it’s just brought up so many times.

Dr G 55:27
It is a huge issue, and it seems that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very fixated on it. It seems to be one of the pain points of the broader Struggle of the Orders, the idea that there is ager publicus – at this point in time – seems a little far fetched, I would suggest, if we think about the broader context of the fifth century in Italy is not a time of flourishing, it’s a time of struggle, generally speaking, and Rome isn’t expanding very much. Now they do make some acquisitions in the fifth century, little outposts here and there, but it is not at all clear that they are controlling vast tracts of land, no and even if they were controlling even small areas, they tend to lose them and then have to regain them back. It’s not like they are secure holdings. And let’s say, for instance, you took over a place in the fifth century, and you were Rome, and then the next year you lost it, and then the next year you gained it back. Do you gain it back in exactly the same way that you had it before? And what portion of that, if any, would be considered common use land? Goodness knows, it’s madness to me. So I feel like this is something that is really hard to reconcile with just how unstable things appear to be. In the fifth century BCE, the Romans are very much struggling to hold targets that they acquire if they are expanding. It’s not at all clear where that land would go or how it would be used, although sometimes there’s mention of colonists being sent out. And, yeah, it does feel like we’re really getting a later issue being sort of superimposed on this very first century of the republic, just to sort of give us a sense that this has always been on the cards for Rome and the stories that happen much later with the Gracchi are maybe justified to a certain extent that the idea has always been at play.

Dr Rad 57:49
Yeah, and I think as well, if we brush aside the first century BCE curtain that might be covering these issues, maybe what is at stake here is that with all this warfare going on with Rome and its neighbors, maybe it is about the fair and just distribution of booty and access to resources that are being gained in whatever expeditions the Romans are carrying on. Maybe that’s really what is at stake here, and for Livy and Dionysius living in the time period that they live in, that would be land, you know, that that would be a major issue, or maybe it reflects a paucity of land in this time period that people are struggling to survive. I can kind of see some connection, obviously, between that and the issues of debt that we’ve talked about and and there being a division between, obviously, people that have more and people that have less. It’s not necessarily that that that you can put that directly on top of patricians for beings, but I can definitely understand that. It’s a very old story, and one that we still obviously experience now, this division between people that have very much and people that have very little.

Dr G 58:59
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think the dream of agrarian reform, it’s there. How does it manifest? And I like your theory relating to like, is it about equitable distribution of the booty, the things that are taken in warfare, as much as it might be about –

Dr Rad 59:18
Gotta divide up that ass!

Dr G 59:22
Shake it, shake it

Dr Rad 59:22
Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done one of those jokes.

Dr G 59:25
I always appreciate them, thinking also about like, how does it look when you’re struggling to survive? And, yeah, this is one of the problems that Rome suffers from as well, is that it’s like, this is not a hunky dory time to be a Roman. It is a time where there are plagues, there are ongoing, sort of rotating military campaigns that mean that you’re losing people consistently, which is then affecting your ability to farm, affecting your ability to bring in a harvest, and, yeah, if you don’t have enough land to subsist or produce a little bit of surplus, then obviously this is going to lead to real tensions. So perhaps you do want some agrarian reform.

Dr Rad 1:00:16
Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s that’s something that, again, just to do the modern parallels, which I love to do, even though it completely time stamps out this episode. It is that idea that sometimes when people encounter things that cost a lot, like in terms of clothing or food, they get really outraged in Anglophone countries like Britain and Australia and America. And it’s understandable, because you’ve been led to believe that these sorts of things should be cheap and plentiful, but actually, when you look at the amount of labor and work that goes into producing these resources, and how crucial they are to survival, if everyone in that supply chain and in that production is getting paid well enough, then actually, these things probably should cost a little more than what we’ve been led to believe. Doesn’t mean it should. I’m not saying I agree with the cost of living crisis that is happening in many countries right now, but I think we’ve been led to believe that certain things should be cheap and that we should have huge amounts of disposable income, when actually, if you look at how people used to live in ancient Rome, a huge amount of whatever they were bringing in, not that would be cash, like for us, but whatever they were bringing in, it is labor intensive, and a lot of what they’re trying to produce is just like basic enough clothes to keep them warm or cool, depending on the season, somewhere to live and enough food to survive. That’s really what they’re looking for here. Sure, everyone enjoys entertainment, everyone enjoys that extra stuff that you have. Obviously, there is like something inbuilt in us where there’s competition and rivalry and we want to have more. But I think that comes from a self rival instinct, whereas these days, what it applies to obviously that more is becoming just so extravagant, the lifestyle that we expect with that more is just, it’s insane when you look at what people are aspiring to have, and that’s why it’s just, it’s yeah, just not reachable for most.

Dr G 1:02:12
Yeah, for sure. And I think when we’re thinking about Rome and how people are struggling in this century. It is perhaps even more, I don’t want to say, laudable, that’s the word that came to mind. But that’s not the right word. Even more interesting. Stick with something really neutral. One of my favorite words interesting that they do field as many military forces as they do absolutely part of it is about survival, and part of it is trying to create that sort of protective barrier between yourself and the danger. So if you can have that buffer zone, it’s strategic, military, you know, it’s tactical. If you can do that, that’s really useful, because that allows you to then relax a little bit in terms of being able to produce a little bit extra so that you can do that again. And that’s kind of the struggle that Rome and all of her neighbors are in, is that they’re all trying to gain just a little bit of security for themselves. That means that they’ve got enough surplus to do it again if they have to, because it’s pretty clear that they will have to year on year. So I think this leads us very nicely into thinking about the way that this militarization and conflict throughout the region is really becoming more and more severe as the century goes on, because they have to develop this whole new political entity, the military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 1:03:55
Such a wordy title.

Dr G 1:03:57
It is a wordy title. And I don’t know that they’re I see people sort of like, you know, turning it into, like an abbreviation, the MTCP, and I’m like no! It’s the military tribune with consular power. It is so you can’t have a new political system without some teething issues. The dictator has been a bit of a solution. The tribune of the plebs a bit of a solution. And then we’ve got this idea that the major magistracies are these two consuls, this idea that there’s a sharing of what used to be monarchical power between these two figures. But sometimes you’ve got even bigger issues, and one of the key facets of the consulship is this idea that they are legally, legitimately able to field military forces, which is great, because you could have two armies going in different directions led by two different people. But what if? What if, Dr Rad, you had more than two enemies that you needed to deal with in a particular year?

Dr Rad 1:05:06
Which I think Rome often does. They managed to annoy a lot of people. It’s impressive. Actually, it’s laudable, you might say.

Dr G 1:05:14
Let’s say you’re not great at making friends. And let’s say you’re better at making enemies. And let’s say all your enemies decide to attack in the same year. Well, maybe you got a bit of a crisis on your hands, because you’ve got a situation now where you’re like, well, if I had one big issue, I could bring in a dictator, but I’ve got four big issues that I need to deal with…

Dr Rad 1:05:39
I got 99 problems.

Dr G 1:05:42
Exactly. It’s like, my problems are multiplying, and I just don’t have the manpower. And all of a sudden, you’re like, I need more people to be able to lead armies. This is where the military tribune with consular power comes in. And not only is it beneficial in terms of being able to have more armies in the field, although presumably they’re smaller armies than if you had two big armies. But there is a sense in which it’s a military tribune, which is kind of like a lower level position within the military structure. And this allows them to co-opt plebeians into this leadership role all of a sudden. Or that’s the theory anyway.

Dr Rad 1:06:27
That’s the theory.

Dr G 1:06:28
That’s the theory. So sometimes we have four military tribunes with consular power. Sometimes we have six. It gets more chaotic as the century goes on, and theoretically, we’re allowed to have some plebeians in there, but that really doesn’t happen until we get right to the end of the fifth century BCE.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Which is, I think again, one of those interesting examples of potentially the narrative maybe overriding what was actually happening. So rather than saying, look, guys, I’m not going to lie to you, things were tough in this century. Whew, boy. We almost got snuffed out completely a few times, rather than potentially admitting that, it feels like whenever we talk about military tribunes with consular power, it’s far more a political issue, where it’s about who’s going to hold the power, the ultimate power? Is it going to be a patrician? Is it going to be a plebeian? Constantly we are talking about this rivalry, about, Oh, what the what’s the election going to be for the next year? Is it going to be a consular year, or is it going to be military tribunes with consular power? And it’s never really connected to the fact that maybe it’s because there is so much going on militarily, and then towards the end of the fifth century, BCE, rather than Rome sort of trading tit for tat with neighbors, which feels like what happens a lot of the time in the fifth century BCE, it seems like Rome is actually going a little bit more aggressively for expansion. And so it would make sense again, to have military tribunes with consular power if you were trying to be on the front foot more than you were on the back foot, or, you know, just responding to some sort of other conflict where it’s being resolved militarily. So yeah, it’s really weird that we very rarely see talk about this position, and how many there were of them in the sense of, well, Rome just has that many problems, guys.

Dr G 1:08:26
So many problems. And we just need so many people to help us out.

Dr Rad 1:08:30
Yeah.

Dr G 1:08:31
And sometimes they do get sent to similar locations. So as we hit the end of the fifth century BCE, we are at the start of the siege of Veii and it does seem like there are moments where Rome sends a whole bunch of commanders to the same location, being like, alright, well, it’s military tribunes of consular power this year. But that’s the problem, and so that does feed into this idea that you’ve suggested that we’re talking about something that is not just about the practicality of, can we field enough armies? Because we’ve got too many war fronts that we need to deal with to this is a political situation, and we certainly don’t want some people sitting in that consulship this year. It’s got to be a military tribunate instead, and the ins and outs of that are completely beyond our capacity to reckon with, with the source material that we’ve got. But it is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:09:32
It definitely is, and I feel very happy, at least, that we did manage to get a plebeian in just under the line.

Dr G 1:09:39
Scraping in.

Dr Rad 1:09:42
Yeah. Well, Dr, G, I think that that does definitely give people a bit of a highlight through looking back and seeing those tensions between the haves and have nots, whoever they may be, we’re not. We’re not going to make them fit in these labelled categories, we’re too cool and hip for that.

Dr G 1:10:02
I don’t like, I don’t like labels.

Dr Rad 1:10:04
Yeah, don’t like labels. And definitely the power of the families and that extended family structure being so important. So the gens being really at the heart of the political and military life of Rome at this point in time, and that perhaps explaining why there is this sense of chaos. It’s just lurking beneath the order that Livy and Dionysius have given to the narratives. It seems so, seems like everything’s so together. But really, you peek underneath it, it’s not quite a set in stone, as they would have us.

Dr G 1:10:38
Yeah, open that door. Have a look inside. Close it again. Be like Rome. It’s chaos in there.

Dr Rad 1:10:42
Yeah.

Dr G 1:10:43
Rome certainly doesn’t have a formal army in this century. Far from it. It is really a situation where they have to be called up every sort of campaign season.

Dr Rad 1:10:55
Ah, the levy.

Dr G 1:10:57
Yeah. So there is a levy every time, and so people have to sign up to be on campaign, which must take a reasonable amount of time. So that is interesting. People don’t get paid. It’s part of your civic duty, not something that you are getting an income from. And we start to see a little hint that potentially, there is payment offered to Roman military forces right at the end of the fifth century BCE. And again, it’s related to the siege of Veii.

Dr Rad 1:11:31
A little hint? You’re calling Livy, talking about military pay multiple times, a little hint? Well, that’s just shows how much do you value him, Dr G!

Dr G 1:11:42
It’s a very small hint. I would not be the first historian who has a small quibble with Livy on this point.

Dr Rad 1:11:51
I know, I know.

Dr G 1:11:54
The idea that you could run a siege, which has to run regardless of the season, rain, hail, shine, you’re on siege. The idea that that would maybe necessitate or encourage some sort of monetary compensation from the elites does make some sense, because prior to having a long, protracted siege, warfare tends to be campaign season only. So do your levy in the early spring. You get out in the summer, you wrap it up before winter, because you’ve got to get home. So that whole situation in terms of like warfare being tied to the seasonal calendar might allow you to just sort of be like, it’s a citizen duty to turn up and do the fighting, and it’s like, and the weather is nice, and you’re hanging out with your bros, and you’re like, yeah, look, I’ve seen some traumatic things, but, you know, I had some fun as well.

Dr Rad 1:12:53
It’s summertime, and you know what that means?

Dr G 1:12:56
It means I’m wearing my shorty shorts and I’m on the battlefield with my bros

Dr Rad 1:13:01
Who wears short shorts? Actually, we should change that rewind, who wears short skirts?

Dr G 1:13:10
I mean, it’s beautiful out there. You know, there’s a man hanging out with men writing letters home. Dear Marcia.

Dr Rad 1:13:20
So the other thing that we definitely see throughout the fifth century BCE, not surprising, and again, something that modern listeners perhaps have greater understanding of now than they would have 10 years ago, is just how much illness can have an impact on a civilization. So we certainly see devastating outbreaks of plague. What exactly that illness is, when they say plague or pestilence, is anybody’s guess, because, of course, we have very different understandings of medical matters in the modern time period to the ancient. But certainly the way that that could really bring Rome to its knees. And that, I think, also links into other disasters, like, you know, famine, infestations of, you know, insects, anything like that. Obviously can be really devastating for these sorts of civilizations. And I think we kind of started to feel like that wasn’t the case again in very privileged countries. But Covid really showed us that that is not the case at all, that any civilization actually can be ground to a halt if the illness is serious enough, so.

Dr G 1:14:30
Yeah, and I think the thing for Rome is, the sad benefit for Rome in all of this sort of stuff is that plagues – they’re not interested in your borders. You know they will sweep through your neighbors, just as they will sweep through you. So you have a situation across the fifth century where Rome falls under the blight of some sort of plague and pestilence. But they’re not the only ones, so it’s not like their enemies. Can take advantage of the situation in any particular way, because they, too, are having a plague and all lying about being like just let it be over. I can’t live like this anymore.

Dr Rad 1:15:13
The odd time when they have tried to take advantage because they haven’t been infected, usually they end up getting infected because they got too close to the Romans, exactly. So isolation, guys, it works.

Dr G 1:15:24
I mean, if you don’t have the plague, don’t run at somebody who has the plague.

Dr Rad 1:15:28
Yes, social distancing, it’s a thing.

Dr G 1:15:31
It works, guys, it works. Follow the science.

Dr Rad 1:15:35
Yeah, and so, yeah. Basically, we’ve got the fifth century being really interesting, because it is a time of struggle. It’s a time of conflict. Rome is trying to establish itself. It certainly is a power that’s worthy of discussion at this time. You know, people are definitely taking note of it. People want to conquer it. People want to grind it into the dust under their sandaled heel. But it certainly isn’t a major power that is winning every battle. I mean, I if I thought of it at the time, we really should have kept a scoreboard of how many times Rome wins and how many times it loses, because I feel like it would come out fairly evenly.

Dr G 1:16:13
I feel like, yeah, for every victory there’s definitely a loss. And you know, they’re having this ongoing struggle with the Etruscans. The Volscians are a thorn in their sides, the Aequians and later on, the Faliscans. And they’ve got some friends as well. The Tusculans seem to be always on Rome’s side.

Dr Rad 1:16:32
Adorable Tusculans, yes.

Dr G 1:16:34
Rome has made some friends. The Hernicians are their friends, which is cute, but yeah, it’s it’s it’s bonkers out there. And they are not a regional leader at all. They’re one of many competing for the same resources in the same very nice part of Central Italy.

Dr Rad 1:16:54
Yeah. And I like to say thank you to everybody who’s been with us throughout this past century and before, if you were with us for the Regal period as well, and also the period before that, when we were doing things much more randomly, kind of like the Romans. See, order develops with time.

Dr G 1:17:09
Order from chaos.

Dr Rad 1:17:12
That’s right, that’s how it happens. Now I should say, I know that I’ve been a little bit present just today, and I often am a bit presentist in the way that we talk about things, but I think that the reason why I like history so much Dr G is that by thinking through the experiences that the Romans had and the experiences that I’ve had myself, it actually kind of helps me to understand their scenario, even though I know it’s not the same. I know you can’t translate my life and put it into ancient Rome by any means, but in terms of the basic emotions that they were feeling, or the very, very broad experiences, I just feel like it gives me more empathy for what people were going through back then, and I also feel like it helps me to process what I’m going through right now as a person living on this planet.

Dr G 1:17:57
Yeah, and I think there’s a huge value to doing history as a way of understanding the self and for seeing certain parallels. Obviously, nothing is a one to one parallel. Everything is vastly different in all of its manifestations through time. But there are ways in which we can see the way that the Romans are sort of navigating their definition of self through the way the historians write about it much later.

Dr Rad 1:18:23
Absolutely, yeah, they’re doing the same thing, yeah.

Dr G 1:18:26
And that process of coming to grips with the past as a way of coming to grips with yourself, I think, is one of the great pleasures of history. So any point in time in which you do history and practice history, the outcome will always be a little bit different, and that is because your present is always a little bit different from the present of somebody else. So yeah, returning to these things over time, you start to learn more about yourself, more about your own society, and it raises questions, not just about the past, but also about the here and now, which I think is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:19:00
Exactly. It makes it intelligible. I think history is at the end of a just good to think with. And there is no doubt in my mind that if I were plunked by a DeLorean, of course, into the fifth century BCE, I would probably die within a week, because I don’t have the skills necessary. But if I think about the sorts of issues that the Romans are talking about and wrestling with, you know, those sort of core conversations and questions about power and how a society should function, and what our responsibility to each other is if we’re living in form of society, I mean, it’s all very understandable all of a sudden, even though I’m like, wow, your life is so foreign, I can be like, wow, actually, we’re not that different.

Dr G 1:19:46
So true.

Dr Rad 1:19:48
So Dr, G, it’s been such a delight spending so much time in the fifth century. BCE, with you, and I cannot wait to see what a new century has in store for us.

Dr G 1:19:57
Did we just spend nearly a decade in the fifth century BCE?

Dr Rad 1:20:02
I think we did. We’re gonna have to live really long lives. Quick, take that magic potion!

Dr G 1:20:08
I’m very excited to start exploring the fourth century BCE, with you, Dr Rad, and I look forward to the next time we chat.

Dr Rad 1:20:15
Absolutely, we’re certainly not gonna run out of material!

Dr G 1:20:18
Oh, no!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai