In this episode of Need to Know we welcome book contributors Liz Ríos and Lisa Rodriguez-Watson to discuss resistance against empire, and embracing the confrontation of the Jesus-way. We explore the lived experiences of women leaders, the role of resistance against oppressive structures, and the significance of listening to marginalized voices. Liz and Lisa each emphasize the necessity of love, community, and the rejection of fear even as we deal with those who don’t agree with us, as we move towards a flourishing church.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

takeaways

* Women’s empowerment is essential for the flourishing of the church.

* Collaborative leadership is necessary to counteract the influence of empire.

* Listening to marginalized voices is vital for understanding the impact of empire.

* Resistance against oppressive structures is ongoing work.

* Maintaining grace and hope is important for leaders facing challenges.

* The church's decline is often due to a failure to embrace justice and inclusivity.

* Love and community are foundational for church growth and health.

* Education and awareness are critical for understanding the complexities of leadership.

keywords

church leadership, empowerment of women, collaborative leadership, resistance, allies, voices from the margins, Billy Graham rule, community, love, justice

Sound Bites

* "The church needs women."

* "Don't be afraid."

* "The empire runs on fear."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Need to Know book

03:28 The Impact of Empire and the Kingdom Way of Doing Things

06:32 Collaborative Leadership and the Need for Change

10:46 The At Odds Nature of Empire and the Church

16:31 Choosing Life and Undoing the Co-Opting of the Church

19:07 Shifting the DNA of the Church and Fostering Community

21:23 The Importance of Love and Following Jesus

26:49 The Holy Work of Resistance

28:08 Subverting Tokenism and Embracing Real Influence

29:15 Challenging the Billy Graham Rule and Fear-Based Mindsets

33:39 Education, Awareness, and Listening as Tools for Change

On this episode of the Right Side Up podcast, we finally talk about the Apostle Paul and his issues with women. We are joined by our good friends Lucy Peppiatt and Aaron White, who discuss Aaron’s contributions to the book based upon Lucy’s scholarship and theology. We delve into the complexities and often misunderstood teachings of Paul regarding women, discussing how these scriptures have been weaponized and misinterpreted. Lucy emphasizes the importance of viewing Scripture with a holistic and contextual lens, and being honest about the things we just don’t understand in Paul’s letters. We call once again for men to be allies and for the church to embrace a fuller understanding of gender equality as part of its mission for the future.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

Learn more about Lucy, the school she leads, and her books.

keywords women in ministry, biblical scholarship, paul, culture, context, early church, women leaders, theology, allies

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Right Side Up Podcast

00:53 Meet the Hosts and Guests

02:01 Discussing Paul's Views on Women

06:26 Reinterpreting Paul's Teachings

15:24 Challenges of Women in Leadership

19:39 Men's Role in Supporting Women

23:49 Engaging with Difficult Scriptures

29:32 Reflecting on a Friend's Life and Legacy

30:22 Lucy's Work and Its Impact

30:46 Youth Camp and Challenging Verses

32:06 Invitation to Deeper Understanding

34:44 Launching the Need to Know Book

35:52 The Role of Allies

37:33 Humility in Scriptural Interpretation

39:49 Confronting Difficult Passages

46:35 Hope for Change and Future Generations

51:33 Lucy's Current and Future Projects

54:52 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

We’re back with Episode 8 of the Need to Know season, digging deeper into the women who are overlooked in church history, especially the time of the Patriarchs and the Early Church. Our guests are Julie Faith Parker, and Anita Giardina Lee, both contributors to Need To Know, the book. They share about the historical contributions of women, the importance of rediscovering their stories, and how these narratives can reshape the future of the church. We emphasize the need for the inclusion of women’s voices and the power of all marginalized voices being welcomed in redefining discipleship and church leadership in this next era of the church. You’ll also hear of groundbreaking new research into Mary Magdalene, and what that means for our imagination of the apostles.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

ReImagine by WomenCo

All women mentioned in the Bible: womeninthebible.org

keywords women in ministry, discipleship, early church, genealogy of Jesus, marginalized voices, church history, women leaders, faith, theology, church reimagining

takeaways

* Women have been active in ministry as long as men.

* Rediscovering women's roles in the early church is crucial.

* Discipleship examples from women in the Bible are abundant.

* The domestic sphere was central to early church leadership.

* Jesus' genealogy includes radical figures like Tamar and Rahab.

* The erasure of women's stories in church history is problematic.

* We must reclaim the narratives of our foremothers.

* Marginalized voices should be at the center of church discussions.

* This generation can build on the legacy of women in faith.

* Reimagining the church involves acknowledging and including diverse voices.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction: Need to Know

01:15 Julie's Chapter: Addressing the Abuse of Women in the Bible

09:08 Anita's Chapter: The Erasure of Women in Church History

10:42 The Early Church and the Domestic Sphere

12:36 The Church's Reinvention Every 500 Years

15:17 The Power of Hospitality and Relationships in the Church

24:02 The Importance of Telling Women's Stories in the Bible

26:21 The Bible as a Catalyst for Deeper Thinking and Change

29:53 Rediscovering the Stories of Women in the Church

31:26 Challenging the Erasure of Women's Contributions

32:36 The Potential of Embracing Women's History

34:44 Empowering Women to Speak and Lead

37:58 The Consequences of Treating Women Badly

42:38 Reimagining the Church: Embracing Inclusivity and Equity

44:26 Women Leading the Reimagination of the Church

49:56 Mary the Tower: A Prominent Apostolic Witness

52:13 God's Design for the Church

The amazing Beth Allison Barr joins us to share her contribution towards Need To Know: the historical prevalence of women leading in the church. We discuss her journey as a historian and a woman in the church herself, including the strong pushback she receives. You’ll hear some personal narratives that shape these discussions, as well as the challenges faced by those who speak out against patriarchal structures. We review the importance of allies in advocating for an end to women's subjugation within Christianity, and emphasize the need for male leaders to listen to and support women in ministry.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

keywords

Biblical Womanhood, Empowerment, Church Leadership, Allies, Personal Narratives, Future of the Church, Male Leaders, Women in Ministry, Patriarchy

takeaways

* Beth Allison Barr's books address the subjugation of women in the church.

* Personal narratives are crucial for understanding the impact of church teachings.

* Speaking up for women often comes with significant personal costs.

* Allies play a vital role in supporting women's empowerment in the church.

* The church's future depends on the inclusion of women's voices.

* Men in leadership should listen to women's experiences and concerns.

* Women have historically played significant roles in church leadership.

* The narrative of women's subjugation is deeply rooted in church history.

* There is hope for a transformative future in the church.

Sound Bites

* "The subjugation of women became gospel."

* "The devil hates women, and he should."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Book Discussion

10:03 Writing the Book and Facing Reactions

19:22 What Male Leaders Need To Do

27:13 Awakening in Men: Moving Beyond Defense

31:59 Marriage and Ministry: Challenging the Narrative

42:36 Exposing Patriarchal Power Dynamics in the Church

In this episode of the Right Side Up we welcome our good friend and frequent collaborator Jo Saxton, to discuss the critical gaps in women’s empowerment in a wide variety of church roles. We explore the growing disillusionment many influential women feel within the church, the importance of allies, and the need for diverse voices in leadership. Our conversation highlights the impact of cultural norms on women's identities and the erasure of women's contributions to church history. We also touch on the prevalence of abuse and toxic culture within church settings and emphasize the importance of listening to women's stories. This is yet another call for hope and restoration for women in the church, especially encouraging leaders to recognize and celebrate the gifts and contributions of the women right in front of them.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

keywords

women empowerment, church leadership, identity, allies, church history, listening, cultural norms, abuse, restoration, hope

takeaways

* The empowerment of women is essential for the future of the church.

* Allies play a crucial role in supporting women's leadership.

* Understanding women's identity in scripture is vital for church leaders.

* There is a significant disconnect between women and the church.

* Listening to women's stories is key to understanding their experiences.

* Raising women up in leadership requires intentionality and support.

* Cultural norms often limit women's roles in the church.

* The erasure of women in church history needs to be addressed.

* Diverse voices in leadership enrich the church community.

* Addressing abuse and toxic culture is necessary for healing and restoration.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and the Need for Women's Leadership

02:02 The Biblical Foundation for Women's Equality

08:16 Women Leaving the Church

14:30 Tools for Empowering Women

26:28 The Impact of Not Seeing Women as They Were Designed to Be

28:22 Addressing Abuse and Toxic Behaviors in Leadership

30:09 Redeeming Women's Identities and Restoring the Church

36:17 The Power of Listening to Women's Voices

39:52 Finding Hope in Embracing Our True Identities

In this episode we welcome Need to Know contributors Mariah Humphries and Carolyn Whatley, to discuss the role of gender empowerment and cultural awareness in building a flourishing future church. From an Indigenous and Indigenous-informed perspective, they share about the importance of lamenting injustices, the need for diverse voices in leadership, and how men can become allies in supporting women. We reflect on the necessity of personal spiritual transformation and the responsibility of individuals to engage wholeheartedly in these discussions. You’ll also find many resources and recommendations to continue your journey.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

keywords

Need to Know, empowerment, women in church, cultural awareness, allyship, lament, healing, diversity, inclusion, spiritual transformation

takeaways

* Empowerment of women is crucial for a flourishing church.

* Allies play a significant role in supporting women and marginalized voices.

* Lamenting injustices is essential for healing within the church.

* The future church must embrace diversity and inclusion.

* Spiritual transformation is a personal responsibility.

* Men need to actively support women in leadership roles.

* Diverse voices and perspectives are vital for a healthy church.

* Reading works by diverse authors can enhance understanding and empathy.

* The Need to Know book serves as a resource for leaders seeking to create equitable spaces.

Sound Bites

* "There has to first be lament over injustice."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to 'Need to Know' and the Authors

07:46 The Future of the Church and the Importance of Lament

14:12 Men's Emotions and the Healing of the Church

31:05 Prioritizing Growth and Change Over Comfort in the Church

31:37 The Beauty of Humility and Backtracking

32:15 Embracing Discomfort and Reflecting on Marginalized Voices

33:39 Addressing Fragility and Shifting Mindsets

36:00 Diversifying Reading and Amplifying Marginalized Voices

37:27 The Role of Male Leaders in Creating an Inclusive Church

In this episode, we feature a special guest who did not contribute to the book, Need to Know: Paul Young. Well-known as the author of The Shack, Eve, and other books, Paul has always impressed me as someone who truly values and elevates women. We discuss the power of storytelling, the role of women in the church, and the importance of truth-telling for pastors. Paul shares his powerful personal story detailing how women were safer figures for him than men, the impact of early childhood trauma on his faith, and the need for authenticity in leadership. We also explore metaphors for God and the rehabilitation of Eve’s reputation in the Biblical narrative.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

keywords

Need to Know, Paul Young, The Shack, Eve, women in the church, storytelling, trauma, faith, authenticity, theology, redemption

takeaways

* Women play a crucial role in the future of the church.

* Trauma can significantly impact one's faith and identity.

* Authenticity in leadership is essential for church growth.

* Truth-telling is vital for pastors to foster genuine connections.

* The metaphors we use for God shape our understanding of God.

* Eve's story highlights the need for women's empowerment.

* Healing and restoration are necessary for personal and communal growth.

* Community and connection are vital for overcoming trauma.

* Men must become allies in the movement for women's flourishing in the church.

Sound Bites

* "The unexposed is the unhealed."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

03:23 The Power of Fiction and Storytelling

07:35 Encountering God Outside of Traditional Beliefs

09:57 Questioning Assumptions and Theology

13:46 The Impact of The Shack and Authenticity in Art

18:49 Healing and Personal Growth as a Foundation for Writing

20:27 Navigating Success and Criticism

27:32 Exploring Women's Stories and Challenging Traditional Beliefs

28:30 The Power of Metaphors in Shaping Our Understanding of God

31:47 Challenging Gender and Racial Stereotypes in 'The Shack'

37:02 Confronting Brokenness and Embracing Love and Humility

38:11 Addressing the Damage of Abuse and Creating a Healthier Church

45:34 Advice for Male Pastors: Truth-Telling, Challenging Doctrines, and Prioritizing Love

51:44 A word to the perpetrators

Up next on the Need to Know season of The Right Side Up podcast, we discuss clergy sexual abuse. This episode includes content that may be difficult to hear for some people, so we encourage you to listen to your body as you engage with this important topic. Our guests are book-contributors Lori Anne Thompson and Angela Lam. Lori Anne shares her personal journey of writing about her experiences with clergy abuse, the challenges of confronting such trauma, and the importance of sharing narratives to foster understanding and empathy. Angela speaks to the role of church leadership in addressing abuse, the bravery of survivors, and the need for systemic change within religious institutions. We reflect on the significance of spiritual reckoning, accountability, and the hope for healing and resurrection amidst darkness.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

Recommended Resources On Clergy Sexual Abuse

Limited Series

Shiny Happy People on Amazon Prime : while showcasing an very conservative strain of Christianity, the subtlety of spiritual manipulation, the effects of purity culture and the “group think” that allows/protects abuse to happen in plain sight are seen in far broader contexts in modern evangelical Christianity

Keep Sweet, Pray & Obey on Netflix: speaks to the coercive power of religious authority and the compliance training women especially have been subjected to. This series is a radical case of both but this actually makes it easier to see. The same roots of these things (coercive power and compliance training of women) are deeply embedded in the dynamics we’re seeing play out in all Christian denominations

The Secrets of Hillsong by FX on Hulu: demonstrates the systemic nature of how abuses of various types are normalized to such a degree that the general populace is somewhat inoculated to seeing it.

BooksThe #MeToo Reckoning: Facing the Church Complicity in Sexual Abuse and Misconduct#ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find HealingA Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power & Promotes HealingRedeeming Power: Understanding Authority & Abuse in the ChurchWhen Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse

Websites

http://www.clergysexualmisconduct.com/http://www.adultsabusedbyclergy.org/https://www.hagarsvoice.com/

Articles

Clergy Sexual Abuse as Moral Injury: Confronting a Wounded and Wounding ChurchDisabusing the Church (the value of trauma-informed churches)

Social Media Feeds

https://www.instagram.com/religious.harm.recovery/https://www.instagram.com/restoredvoicescollective/https://www.instagram.com/brokentobeloved/

episode keywords

clergy abuse, personal narrative, resilience, faith, accountability, survivors, church leadership, trauma, healing, hope

takeaways

* Writing about trauma requires descending into painful experiences.

* Identifying with the crucified Christ helps in understanding clergy abuse.

* Sharing personal narratives can cultivate empathy in others.

* Bravery in confronting abuse often comes with immense personal cost.

* Church leadership must prioritize accountability over self-protection.

* Systemic change is necessary to address the culture of abuse.

* Spiritual reckoning is essential for healing within the church.

* Understanding betrayal trauma is crucial for recognizing abuse.

* Hope and resurrection can emerge from the darkest experiences.

* Leaders are invited to break ranks and stand with survivors.

Sound Bites

* "Writing was an ascent into an incredibly dark and painful personal hell."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Overview

01:59 Angela Lam's contributions and background

06:18 Lori Anne Thompson's Lived Experience and Contribution to the Book

11:17 Reading an Impactful Excerpt from Lori Anne Thompson's Chapter

14:36 The Power of Narrative and Identifying with the Crucified Christ

23:31 The Shift in Public Response and the Importance of Media Coverage

25:17 Encouragement for Survivors and Allies

29:00 Breaking Ranks: Challenging the Status Quo

38:42 The Crucifixion of Jesus: Exposing Systems of Evil

55:37 The Invitation to Stand with Jesus: Finding Hope in Resurrection

Happy Thursday! Continuing the Need to Know season of The Right Side Up podcast, today we get into our first conversation with two contributors to the book. My dear friend Bob Ekblad is joined by Janet Munn, an author, speaker and leader in the Salvation Army. In this conversation, we explore the intersection of gender, power, and faith within the church. We reflect on need for a reimagined understanding of God that transcends traditional male-centric views. What is the church’s history of female leadership? What power dynamics distort equality today? How do allies get involved? Find answers to all those questions and more.

Show Notes

Link to order the book: Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church

Keywords

God, gender, power, church, leadership, women, equality, community, advocacy, nonviolence

Takeaways

* God is described as both male and female in scripture.

* The distortion of power dynamics harms both men and women.

* Women must be empowered to lead and serve in the church.

* The church needs to reimagine its structures to be more inclusive.

* Active nonviolence is essential in addressing social injustices.

* Voices of women are crucial for the health of the church.

* Encouragement to persist in advocacy for gender equality.

* The original biblical narrative supports mutuality between genders.

* Jesus' choice of women as the first witnesses to the resurrection is significant.

* Allies are needed to help amplify women's voices in the church.

Sound Bites

* "God is not male."

* "We need allies who will help us."

* "Distortion of power causes great damage."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Need to Know season and the book

01:55 Reimagining God's Gender

09:39 The Gap Between Theory and Practice

24:08 Rethinking Power and Spiritual Authority

34:16 Practical Steps for Gender Equity

42:04 Holding Leaders Accountable and Leaving Spaces that Do Not Value Women

46:24 Reimagining Church Structures and Systems

Friends! Welcome to the Need to Know season of The Right Side Up. This season is all about supporting the forthcoming compilation book, Need to Know: Empowering Female Leadership and Why It’s Essential for the Future of the Church. In this introductory episode I share why empowering women is so important for the future of the church. You’ll hear me emphasize the importance of collaboration between men and women, the need for systemic change, and the role of theology in promoting gender equity. I reflect on the historical context of female leadership, the challenges of addressing abuse within church systems, and the necessity of honest hope and lament in the journey towards transformation.

Order the book

keywords

female leadership, church, empowerment, theology, equity, abuse, collaboration, hope, transformation, systemic change

takeaways

Empowering female leadership is essential for the future of the church.

Cultural awareness is crucial for understanding gender dynamics.

The cost of allyship can be surprising for men.

Theology plays a significant role in gender equity discussions.

Church systems often perpetuate abuse and harm.

Historical examples, like the Salvation Army, show the impact of female leadership.

Collaboration between genders is vital for church growth.

Honest hope requires acknowledging and lamenting past injustices.

Transformation involves a deep personal and collective metanoia.

Listening and learning are the first steps towards living differently.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction: The Need to Know

02:27 The Cost and Challenges of Empowering Female Leadership

06:09 The Interconnectedness of Power, Empire, and Leadership

08:01 The Importance of Doing Exegetical Work on Women

11:20 The Historical Role of Women in the Church

18:48 A Call to Repentance, Learning, and Living Differently

Bob is someone I have long admired for his witness of the ways of Jesus. He talks with us about his own story, the need to break allegiances with our dominant cultural idols (even national ones), and the ongoing journey of being faithful to Jesus in an age of rising nationalism disguised as Christianity. This is so eye opening and beautiful.

tierra-nueva.org

peoplesseminary.org