In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into consent and autonomy. Moving towards respecting our children’s autonomy and consent is typically an important part of the unschooling journey. In our conversation, we talk about independence vs autonomy, looking for underlying needs, questioning societal messages, and moving from control to connection with our children.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-host, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia.

I’m so excited because this week we’re exploring consent and autonomy, and I really think these are just such deep topics with so many layers, and maybe it becomes a bit more complicated to consider consent and autonomy when we’re in a holiday season or when we are surrounded by our families of origin.

Maybe it feels like there are more external expectations on us and our kids, and so I think it’s a great time to dive into this topic. And on that same note, I wanted to mention that the Living Joyfully Shop has courses and coaching to help you through this time of year, including the course called Navigating Family Gatherings.

There’s a lot to think about when we are preparing to spend time with family, especially during holidays with a lot of traditions and expectations. And some families may particularly have expectations of how children should show up around the holidays, and our unique families might have a different idea of how we want the gatherings to feel. The course can offer you some ideas about how to navigate some of those challenges that come up. You can learn more about that course and all the others at livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Pam, would you like to get us started on our conversation?

PAM: Sure, I would love to. And I do love how the ideas of consent and autonomy weave together, and also how this flows from our last podcast episode about weaving our needs into the conversation. So, I think that’s going to be a really fun conversation as well. 

With unschooling, we do prioritize giving our children choices and supporting their autonomy. But what truly lies at the heart of that is consent. In fact, consent lives at the forefront of pretty much every interaction we have with kids. Now, I know as adults we often talk about consent in a sexual context, but when we try on the lens of a child’s consent to do things throughout their day, I think it really can be so eye-opening, and a real paradigm shift.

I notice when I override their consent, what I’m often doing is not giving them the space to consider whether or not they want to do the thing, right? Maybe it’s because I think of it as a given. They’ve always wanted to do this before. We’re just going to do it. Or maybe I’m in a hurry and feel like I don’t have time for the conversations.

It’s not a callous thing. It’s usually more of a, I didn’t even really think about it kind of thing. That’s why it’s interesting to just start using that lens throughout our day. Because it can definitely have consequences if we are not really considering their consent.

One can be eroding the trust in our relationship. It’s harder to trust someone when it feels like they’re railroading you to do things to keep themselves on track. Right? It’s not even asking, leaving the child not feeling seen and heard, because really they aren’t.

Our needs are kind of overriding what’s going on. And another can be that they start to internalize this and think that they’re wrong to want to do the thing that they want to do, the choice that they want to make in that moment. And that can start to dampen down their inner voice. What they want to do in the moment or what they feel about the moment if we keep jumping in without giving them the space to process that and bring that into the conversation and fully consent to what they’re doing.

Well, if my parent thinks that I should be doing this, because they’re saying, let’s go do this, let’s go do this. We’re going to go do this now. What I’m thinking must be wrong. Or I’m wrong for wanting to, or not wanting to do those things that are expected of me.

And then they can lose their voice that way, I think.

ANNA: I think it just erodes that understanding of ourselves because I think that dissonance is actually what causes a lot of stress and anxiety in people of all ages. And we can carry into adulthood.

And that is this, they’re telling me that either what I want to do or don’t want to do is wrong. But I’m feeling it deep inside of me that I don’t want to go do that thing or that I really want to stay focused on this one thing in front of me. It just erodes this trust in our inner voice and our knowing about ourselves.

And I think that is just a really slippery slope. And I know as the parent that’s often coming from a really loving place, like, we’re going to have so much fun, or it’s going to be great, or we want to all be together. We’re not going in there thinking, I am eroding your voice, or I want you to feel bad about yourself.

No, we’re coming in with this love and excitement about the plan. Or maybe a feeling of, I know better than you. I can see this longer picture, but to me, it’s worse having them doubt or question that inner voice because that serves them so much throughout their life to really hear and listen to that.

I think it’s also a safety thing. I think it’s a personal development thing. I think it’s related to relationships and how they show up in relationships later. So to me it’s so foundational, this idea of consent and it was really consent that led me on this path.  I do not like to be controlled. So consent is something that really, even before I had kids, was really important to me.

And so then it was this new area to test and because it’s different with kids, right? Because we do have these ideas, I think we talked about it on the last podcast of – it’s my time. I’m going to be able to do the things I want to do. But then you have this fully formed human that has very strong ideas about what they want to do.

And it did not take me long again, because I don’t personally like to be controlled to go, oh, okay. I don’t want to be the person that’s controlling them and not allowing them to listen to their voice, to not hear them, because I know how terrible that feels. 

The whole idea of consent is so important to me, and it is wrapped up and weaves nicely with autonomy because that is this idea of, what do we want to do? What feels good? How do we want to move forward? I feel like this topic is so vast, though, so I have so many things I want to say, but I’ll see what you’re thinking, Erika, before I just keep going, there’s so much I want to say!

ERIKA: Right. And the more we think about it, I think the more things pop up. I remember the episode where we talked about cultivating our children’s inner voices or  allowing space for that to develop and how important that is to me. 

When I’m thinking about this topic, I’m remembering how it felt to be a kid. It is so powerful to just go back to even four and 5-year-old me, little me. And I can remember knowing what felt good, knowing what felt scary, knowing that I knew for myself what felt right and what didn’t.

And so having the space to express that as a kid is so huge. And then having someone who actually will believe your experience, believe that you could have a different opinion than someone else. And then to tell you that that’s okay. That is just the biggest gift that we could give to someone. And I really think that it is what will help them trust their inner voice.

And from my perspective as a parent, it’s fun because I’m learning about someone who I haven’t met before, which is my child. This person who is their own person through and through, and they know what they want. They know what feels bad and what feels good. And so, just cultivating that curiosity from the parent perspective.

What could I learn about my child today? What are they going to show me about how they want their life to be? Rather than me coming in saying, I know how children are supposed to be, or, I know what I like and so therefore you like it. I know that you do because it’s great 

Talking over their inner voice disconnects them. It breaks that trust they have in us. And, the more that I can hold space, leave space for them to say, I know you’re loving this, but I don’t like it, they just trust me so much more and then I’m learning about them and it’s so rewarding, I think as a parent.

PAM: I like rewarding, what a lovely word. What I find so fascinating is when we railroad over their consent, what we’re really doing too is interfering with their learning, like the choice that they want to make in that moment, what they do or don’t want to do. They will learn the most by having that experience, not by us stopping them from having that experience.

What we’re thinking might be, I don’t think you’re going to like that and you really want to go. That’s going to mean X, Y, Z, whatever story we tell ourselves about it. But you know what, if they really want to try this thing, they want to do this thing. If they can do that, they are going to learn so much in that moment.

It’s like us telling somebody else what we think the outcome will be for them. And you know what? We are not them. Right? And how often have we just taken at face value, something somebody tells us as like, yeah, you won’t like that, or you’ll love this, et cetera. It doesn’t feel good to us, doesn’t feel good to someone at any age.

When we are wanting an experience, we will learn the most by having it, and then we can say, I did not like this, X, Y, Z about it. I really learned that because I have the experience, I now have the context. I’m now making those connections in my own head, building my body of knowledge around myself and I’m gaining self-awareness.

It’s like, oh, I didn’t think it would be this way. Right? Or, I loved it, et cetera. It really helps with learning. So when we’re in that experience, it really makes connections for us. It really helps us understand ourselves and the things we do and don’t like to do.

So, when we step in, even with the biggest heart because we don’t want them to be upset or we don’t feel we have the energy for an overloaded environment or something like that. Those are considerations, but also the more we can help them have the experiences they are looking to have, the more they will learn.

So, not walking over their consent also means they will be learning something that is close to their heart right now because this is a choice that they’re wanting to make right now and that will help them take the next step. Instead of having to keep asking for that step over and over and over, they’re just kind of stuck in their learning at that point because we’re not helping them bring more in around what they’re learning.

ANNA: I love that learning point and I think we talk about consent and autonomy a lot. There’s other conversations, definitely on the network and I think even some other podcasts have hints of it as well. But I think this is just another opportunity to examine, to really look in and think about our thinking.

Because if you were to ask any person, do you want to push through your child’s consent? Most likely the answer is no, because that doesn’t sound good. We’ve all learned that consent is important and we need to understand it. And we have an expectation that teenagers will understand it and that other adults will understand it.

And we see it play out in ways and we are upset about it, where we feel like our consent has been violated. So we would say no. But this is where we can examine, but am I doing it again with this big heart thinking I know best, or thinking that if I just do this, then push them a little bit here or just not worry about that they don’t want to do that there, then it’s going to be okay.

So to maybe flip it on the other side, I think we all want compassionate people, right? We want our kids to be compassionate and kind and this is where it starts, this right here. This one piece to me is so critical in having a world that’s filled with compassion, because when we can slow things down to really hear what’s happening to someone. I’m thinking of 4-year-old Erika who knows what she needs and wants in that situation. What a different world it is when someone says, Hey, I get that. I get that you don’t want to do that, or you’re seeing it differently than I am, or that you don’t like it right now because it’s right now, and she might like it later, so I don’t have to future trip on, oh, she’s not doing this one thing, and she’ll never do it.

I can just say, I want to honor you where you are. Because again, that’s where compassion is born. And then that child wants to offer that to the next person and the next person, and it spreads from there. So I think just pausing and slowing down and maybe a little examining about what it is that we want to be fostering in our environment.

What is it that we want to be learning about, because it’s learning for me too, because it’s hard to live with other people. It’s hard to take everybody into consideration and all of those pieces. But then there’s so much reward to it and so much learning.

That’s what makes it doable for me. Because I think some people think I can’t do that. It takes too much time. Or I don’t have the bandwidth, but when I really think about what are my core values and what am I wanting to foster and create, then it makes that easy.

It makes taking that time easy, it makes spending that little bit of extra energy so much easier.

ERIKA: That’s why the work for us to do is our internal work. And being resourced, being given that time and space in my own mind is enough to leave that room for them to express what they’re feeling about a situation.

It does take intention and it does take patience. And that’s why I think that weaving in our needs from last time is also so critical here because it really is when I feel like I’m in a rush, I feel like I’m doing a million things, those are the moments that I’m the most likely to push through someone’s consent because it’s just one more thing on my plate. That’s what it feels like, you know?

We’re trying to get out the door and now they’re saying that they are worried about going. How do I have time to deal with that conversation? And so that really is the time to remember the why. The most important thing that I could do in this life is this. These conversations with the kids, leaving the space for them to have their feelings and to figure out what feels good moving forward.

And so, yeah, I just think it is all my work to do. And we were probably not modeled much of this as kids and growing up in a really controlling environment of school. And so, it’s just a lot of intention that has to come from me.

PAM: Yeah. I love the way you expressed that, Erika, that this is our intention.

This really is the important work that I want to choose to do in these moments and to feel reasonable enough that you can make that shift right in the moment when we recognize that somebody is feeling like their consent is being pushed on. And, if one of the things we were wanting to talk about that I feel is so important is not only not pushing their consent, but it’s in support of their autonomy, right.

Of them making choices. And like I was talking about before, making these choices is reflecting who they are in that moment and what they’re wanting or not wanting to do, right? We want to give them choices so that they can then pursue who they are and explore who they are and the things that they like to do.

That’s life. But one of the fascinating things is, I remember having those moments and when I’m feeling a little under-resourced too, right? Is that they want their autonomy, they want to do the thing, well then they can go and do it, right? So it’s thinking about autonomy versus independence.

We can easily make that little quick connection. That autonomy means doing it themselves. If they want to make that choice, then they can do it. It’s their responsibility to follow through and do the thing then. But yeah, autonomy and independence are very different things.

We don’t need to have the expectation that they can independently do the things that they’re wanting to do. If we are wanting to support them in pursuing their interests and learning about their interests and learning about themselves. It is for us to help them do the things. And the lovely thing is, when we’re there with them, we can help them process, right?

They have someone to talk to about this. They don’t feel judged about saying, I really wanted to come do this thing and we’ve been here a half hour and I really want to go home now because this is not what I expected. Verses it’s not okay. You wanted to come here, so we’re coming here for the whole thing.

I love the word interdependence. We are helping them explore the things that they’re interested in and as we talked about last time, weaving our lives together, we are all wanting to do the things and it’s about all of us. Everyone’s consent, everyone’s autonomy, and weaving together the things that we’re wanting to do, not wanting to do, and finding a way as much as we can, and without that pressure of time.

So maybe if there is something that I want to do but it doesn’t fit right now. Is it okay if it’s tomorrow? Often it can be, there isn’t an emergency. And that perspective also comes with experience. So, sometimes things feel super urgent for our kids and we can understand that. And help them gain those moments because that’s something that will come with time too.

But anyway, yeah, autonomy and independence are completely different. 

ANNA: Very different things. I know we have a podcast on the independence agenda, and I think it’s important to revisit that too, to recognize that there is really a difference. I think consent weaves in, so it’s so interesting how they’re all so interrelated and how different it feels to have that interdependence than to have either an independence agenda or this control.

The control paradigm of a parent telling a child what to do. I had a client that was recently sharing a story that I think is related, so I’m going to go for it for just a second. She has a strong independence agenda that we talk about a lot. And I was like, tell me where that came from. What comes to mind from when you were younger? 

And she shared a story of how they were very young children and they were told they had to go rake the whole yard. They had this giant yard and they had to rake the whole yard, two young children. And then the parents came out and it wasn’t good enough and said, you’ll do it again.

This was even though it had taken them hours to do. And they were just so devastated and had to do this again. And she’s said, but you know, I guess we learned we just have to do it right the first time and that it was just on us. I said, what would it have felt like if they had come out and said, oh, you know what, there’s still some leaves here let’s all get them up together. 

She just stopped for a second and said, I think I would’ve felt really loved and like I’m not alone. Because that’s the thing, right? What are we valuing? And again, this is may be a ‘people are different’ thing too, but what are the values?

We’ve talked about this before. Maybe independence is a value. But I think it’s worth examining, are there unintended consequences to when we’re putting that on someone else? I think we can want our own independence. We can want our own autonomy, but when we’re deciding for someone else that that’s what they need, that’s where we’re pushing through consent, potentially. That’s where we’re potentially changing the relationship. And so I think it’s also valuable to just slow down, dig in a little bit and see, does this really align with what I’m feeling inside? Or am I just repeating outside messages and then putting it on the kids in front of me?

ERIKA: It’s where the agenda becomes more important than anything else. But is that really what we want? Or is that again, this role of the good parent that we’re trying to fill? I think that’s super interesting. And then I was also thinking, just a note for the parents of young children.

I feel like this consent and autonomy can be the most challenging during those very young years because a lot of the big reactions that toddlers and little kids can have about things don’t feel logical at all. That was a challenge for me, and I see it being a challenge for a lot of parents with little kids.

I clearly see what’s going on and they’re having this big reaction that doesn’t really make any sense logically to an adult mind. And so I don’t know. I don’t particularly have advice, but I’m just thinking, solidarity with the parents of young children. And then also, for a young child, these big feelings are real.

And so I think giving the space for them to have them, taking them seriously,that’s the biggest thing you can do. Because it’s the worst feeling to have a big emotion about something, which I still do have big emotions about some things. And then to have someone say. You don’t feel like that. You don’t need to feel like that. You shouldn’t feel like that. 

It’s so invalidating. And so, doing this work of listening, leaving space, and letting even the littlest kids have their feelings and not pushing through that, I think is such amazing work.

ANNA: Right, because I want to say that, because I have that logical brain too, and it can be hard, why are we freaking out about the blue sippy cup versus the pink sippy cup? Can we just want a sippy cup?

But what I found is that when I could check that and go, okay, but what’s really happening here? It is a big emotion about something. And oftentimes there are contextual pieces or you know, HALT They’re hungry, they’re angry, they’re lonely, they’re tired.

Something else that’s going on, something else at play. And so when we can really hear, and validate that you want this particular blue sippy cup, we need to find it and clean it, even though we have 20 other sippy cups right here. You see that energy comes down because if we stay in our place of, we’re going to out logic over the 2-year-old, it’s not a winning proposition.

It’s just going to, things are just going to escalate. But like you said, we can see it as adults too. It’s like someone telling us, well that’s not logical for you to be upset about this thing or anxious about this thing, or worried about this thing. That doesn’t feel connecting and it doesn’t  help you go, okay, well yeah, I’m not going to worry about it now because you told me not to.

ERIKA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I’m just thinking, there could be a lot of times when I’m at a heightened emotion and so if we are moving forward with this plan that I’m feeling scared about or upset about, and we’re going to do it anyway, it feels like my consent is not being respected in that moment. But really all it would take is for someone to hear my concerns. Let’s talk through my concerns, validate that it’s okay, that I’m feeling the way that I feel. Then maybe I really am okay moving forward. I just needed to be heard first.

And so with consent, I think sometimes it can happen where we think my kid doesn’t want to do this, so I guess we can’t do it. And then that’s the end of the conversation. Rather than, my kid doesn’t want to do this. Let’s get curious. What are the reasons? Let’s try to figure it out. Let’s validate. Problem solve, be creative, and then maybe the event actually does happen because everyone feels heard and we’re able to figure out a way that it actually feels okay.

PAM: Yeah, I think those conversations are the most interesting because again, as we’ve talked about so much, it’s not about having the outcome in mind. It really is understanding the context for each person. If something somebody super does or super doesn’t want to do, that is part of the context of the conversation. I can say, yeah, well this was interesting to me, but I’m not super committed and it doesn’t matter per se. and then if I am super committed, then we get curious, we talk about what it is that they’re uncomfortable with or imagining or envisioning, just so that we can get a clearer picture of what it’s going to be and see if there’s a way to mesh them together. 

And then if we don’t find that way, then look for other ways, can somebody else come and stay with them? Can they stay on their own? Depending on their age. There are so many possibilities when we take our mind off the tunnel of this one initial outcome that we saw as the initial path.

And we discover there are so many ways. So many times over the years I found new ways to get to something with my kids because they’ve had these really cool ideas.

ANNA: Right, and we’re not having to give up something. I think this really does relate back to the other podcasts we’ve done, but it also relates to what you said at the top of this show, Erika, which is, the holidays are a good example and things where we don’t have to give up what we want to understand what’s happening for everyone.

But it again, if we tunnel in on this one outcome, okay, we’re all going to march into family dinner and we’re going to sit there and it’s going to look like this because that’s what we do. That may not work. But when we get to each individual’s preferences, hey, I like talking to this person. I like seeing the tree. I like looking at the lights.I like talking to grandma. I like playing the card game. 

Then we can figure out how we can do those things. So it’s not about giving up what we are wanting to do, to honor someone’s consent. It’s really about just weaving all of it together. And again, with very young children, it’s sometimes just giving them space for those big emotions.

And being playful about it. I’m thinking of leaving the park at the playground. That can be hard, you know? And then instead of thinking, okay, I’m going to have to drag them to the car, or are we going to stay here for the rest of our lives because they don’t want to leave. There’s a middle ground of letting them have that emotion and validating.

You don’t want to leave, we’ve had so much fun! We would always race to the tree and race to the other tree and we’d be working our way closer to the car or piggybacks to the car or things like that, just recognize that some transitions are harder for some kids. And I think you said this Erika earlier, and Pam, this is where the learning is.

This is where we’re learning about each other. It’s hard to leave something where we’re having fun or it’s hard to leave something that we’re engaged in. That doesn’t mean we can never do it. It just means that we’re taking time to be heard and seen and it just feels so different. It just really feels so different and so connected.

And again, I believe that then that is what ripples out into the world because now they have this template of,  it’s really nice to feel seen and heard and I want to see and hear the people in my life.

ERIKA: And remembering that everybody’s differences are okay and that’s just so amazing in a family, not writing the story that, oh, because you know, my kid doesn’t want to be in this crowded family event, means they don’t care about family, or they don’t like family traditions or, some big story when it’s really just, it’s a lot of stimulation or it’s a lot of people trying to talk to you and it’s overwhelming. And so, just leaving space for everyone to be themselves. It’s kind of great. 

Well, this has been so much fun and we hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment like I did, or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network.

It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on livingjoyfullyshop.com, and we hope to meet you there. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

Bye bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about weaving in our needs.

When we first come to unschooling, it’s common to start questioning the traditional roles of parent and child. Maybe we go from seeing adult needs as the priority and then we swing on the pendulum over to meeting all of our children’s needs as the priority and let ours fall by the wayside.

But eventually, ignoring our own needs is a recipe for burnout and resentment. We can work to incorporate everyone’s needs into the family conversation, because we are all different and all of our needs matter.

This was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

Blog post – Are You Playing the Role of Mother?

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hi to you both.

We are going to be diving into another unschooling stumbling block today, which is weaving our needs into our days. And I think this is a big one. I remember this one. And while as always, it’s not cut and dried, it is definitely an important part of just living together as a family and noticing overwhelm, hopefully before it becomes burnout.

But before we dive in, we want to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is just so much value in doing that deep personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community, because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges and stumbling blocks, and that’s where the power of community shines.

In the network, you can learn from the experiences of other unschooling parents. Draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their family’s day-to-Day needs. It is a conversation that comes up very regularly. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully shop.com and click on community in the menu.

Now, Anna, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would, I’m glad we’re talking about this because you’re right. I think it’s an important understanding and really it’s a paradigm shift when we’re moving to unschooling or more connection-focused parenting, because typically we’re a very adult focused world.

The needs of adults tend to get the most attention, and kids are kind of along for the ride. We hear things like, they can adjust and then their resilience is praised and adults know best anyway. And all of these kinds of pieces that we’ve all steeped in and heard in our own childhood.

But once you open your mind and heart to really seeing children as fully formed humans on their own journey, it brings everything into question. We start to see how often kids are discounted, how their feelings are dismissed, and how they aren’t trusted to know themselves. Letting go of those ideas and seeing children as capable and trustworthy, it’s beautiful. It’s a powerful shift along the journey to prioritizing connection and supporting autonomy. 

I do think we have to be careful because while it’s great to notice and correct for this power imbalance, we don’t need to tip too far the other way because we’re still imbalanced. We’re still actually in that whole power paradigm, it’s just another person feeling disempowered.

So sometimes, that pendulum swing to the other side is necessary to find the center ground that honors all the parties involved. But we don’t need to hang out there too long. And recognizing we’re hanging out there, I think, can be really important to making that shift to everyone’s needs being valued, because when we find the center, we realize that everyone can have their needs met.

It’s not a race, it’s not a competition. We can create an environment grounded in trust and understanding that all of our needs are valid and together we can find a way. I feel like there are a lot of aspects to dig into, but I’m going to stop here. And Erika, we’ll go to you. What bubbled up for you when you were thinking about this idea?

ERIKA: Yeah, I really saw that same pendulum swing idea when I was reading about this topic as well, because as we’re growing up, we don’t have any power. We can’t wait to be an adult because then finally we get to make our own decisions. Our needs will finally be important. We’ll finally get our say.

And so it could be natural to step into parenthood with that view of, now, finally, I’m in charge. My needs are the most important. And then when we start to notice how different our children are from us, how much they already know about themselves, and if we’re curious about giving them their autonomy, I do think it can be a huge pendulum swing to, oh my gosh, I’m just going to support all of their needs all the time, and I’ll just forget about mine because I’m an adult.

I can handle it. So, I do think that can be a recipe for that kind of martyrdom and resentment that can start to come up where we think, I do everything for them and I never get to meet any of my needs. And that really is not the goal of unschooling, to have that feeling that I never meet my own needs.

And so I do think this is a paradigm shift to, we are all humans. We all have needs and we all can get our needs met in this kind of community, in this family. And so, it’s kind of revolutionary and I think it’s a journey to get from, I’m the boss to, my kids are the boss to wait a second, there is no boss. We’re all working together. And it’s just so valuable once you can get to that place.

PAM: I do love that there’s just the imagery of the paradigm and the pendulum swing. Right? And I encourage people to use such loving language for themselves, right?

Not like, oh crap, I went too far, or I’m not doing enough. The way we are using it as something that we’re recognizing, using it as a clue. Oh, okay. This is something that I want to think a little bit more about, that I want to consider some more. That’s one of the things we love about this podcast is just sharing some observations and some stumbling blocks that we have seen along the way that people kind of bump into, stumble over, that are great clues that there’s something more that you can consider here.

And as you guys were talking, something that bubbled up for me, another consideration as we’re trying. I swung really far and I am quite happy with supporting my kids and everything, but I’m starting to feel overwhelmed. I’m starting to feel like nobody hears me, nobody considers me.

I am feeling exhausted, maybe a little bit mildly, like all those pieces, and I want to come and find a way to bring my needs into the conversation. One thing that I think is really important or valuable, helpful to consider at that point is the idea of fairness, because bringing our needs back into the conversation doesn’t mean, well, I did three things for you, so now I get to do three things for me.

That’s another layer that’s just going to interfere with figuring things out. Because now I need to start thinking about, what are my needs? And then you’re thinking about expectations. You’re thinking about those societal conversations like, is it that I need to go to the spa once a month?

But no, it can be, what is it that I actually need? What is it in this particular situation? What is more fundamentally my personality, that I feel like I’ve been dampening? What do I need to bring into the conversation in an ongoing way? Is it certain situations or environments or places that trigger something for me?

We talk quite a bit about narrating, that’s where that can start to be helpful in sharing. So it’s not that I need to bring my needs to the table all the time. It may be that I’m just sharing these pieces of me, so that other people get to learn a bit more about me. Because if I’m just taking care of everybody else’s needs, nobody’s learning much about me, right?

That is part of starting to bring things in but not like tit for tat I did this, now you get to do this. It really has so much to do with people are different and what our fundamental needs are and seasons because there are seasons where somebody might have a heavier load of needs for a while, right?

And it’s not wrong to consider that and make choices with that in mind as well. There’s just so much in there, isn’t it?

ANNA: There’s so much and I love that because fair is not equal. So, watch for those kinds of old tropes that we can bring in, that can end up again being a disconnect. But I actually think that one of the first steps for us in this process is to really tune in and understand what our needs are, be able to articulate them because if we think back and we were children in an environment where our needs were not valued or really taken into consideration as much,how we didn’t even learn to express them. And so what can tend to happen is that it builds up, it builds up, it builds up.

This is regardless of unschooling, and then it comes out as this explosion of you’re not helping me or nobody’s hearing me because maybe that’s what it sometimes took in childhood, the big explosion to get the attention. And so what I love about this is it’s just this time for introspection and learning more self-awareness. 

And recognizing this is niggling a little bit, or this isn’t feeling good. Or watching for some pebbles of feeling more tired, or feeling not as engaged and what do those things look like? And then being able to narrate a bit more. I love that you mentioned that because I think it’s so important because that’s how we learn about each other. 

And then also, again, just to be able to articulate because that’s what this process looks like when you get further down the road is just everybody being able to, casually without energy, articulate their needs. It doesn’t have to be a blow up.

It’s like, Hey, this is what I’m feeling now and this trust that we can develop that these other people care and we’re going to figure it out together. It’s not that it’s one or the other. And so, yeah, I think that’s going to be really interesting. But I do think that’s the first place to go is really, What are my needs and what do they look like? 

And I love the piece that you said, Pam, about, don’t borrow your needs from what society’s telling you your needs are. Things like, you need to have date night, you need to go to the spa once a month. You need to do all of this stuff. Maybe, maybe those are things that feel good to you.

But those two particular things did not feel good to me, so that wasn’t where my needs were. And so, you really have to shut out the noise to tune in and know yourself. I’m an introvert. I need this time. What does that look like? What fits within the context of my life, where it is now and this season?

Which I think is very valid because it changes. We’ve seen lots of seasons over these 20 some years of kids. I love just digging in and learning more about yourself because I feel like sometimes we haven’t really been given that opportunity at all.

ERIKA: Right, right. I think that’s why it’s such a big paradigm shift or so challenging in the beginning because we’re not really tuned in. We may be more in the role of parent than tuned in to ourselves as unique individuals and thinking about how people are different. But I just love that as we start narrating, even for ourselves, telling ourselves what we are feeling and what’s going on for us and just recognizing the context of the moment. It’s just so valuable for us to learn about ourselves. And then it’s little clues that our family is learning about us as well. 

If I can start my saying, I didn’t get great sleep. I’m thinking we need to keep meals kind of simple today. That’s a little thing that I can say in the morning that just gives everyone the idea of, okay, we’re not making the lasagna, but then it’s not a big deal. We will do it on another day when I have more energy. But just giving them a heads up about my context and how I’m feeling.

And then you’re right, that then everyone else starts to learn or say, okay, I can do that for me too. You know what, I’m feeling really grumpy about this. I am not in the mood for that anymore. The more individuals you have in your family, the more complicated it can get. But even with just my family of four, we all thought we’d be in the mood to do this, and then something comes up, someone’s not feeling good, or someone’s feeling like they need some rest or whatever it is, and so just the more we can talk about that, the more I think everyone’s needs kind of weave together. 

And I love that the title of this one is like weaving in our needs. Because that’s what it feels like. It’s not something that we can schedule everything well in advance. Because the context of the moment is what determines what I actually need.

PAM: I love that. That’s beautiful. Okay, I’m going to try and remember the two things that bubbled. Number one in us not even often recognizing our needs at first. And knowing there’s a need and meeting a need, those are two separate things, but I think something we’ve been talking about in the network lately, is our kids as our guides, and I was thinking of the pendulum swing and not being hard on ourselves if we have swung really far.

And I love just that whole power paradigm thing. But if we swung there, I think our kids can be great examples of sharing what they need. Right? So they will tell you, I don’t want to do that, or I need to do this, I need to do this. The language depends on their age and all that kind of stuff and personalities.

But I feel like often they are just more grounded in knowing in the moment what their need is. So sometimes they are just a great example to look to and just say, well, if they can express it, maybe I can express it. Ooh, they know what they’re needing in this moment, and we see the context of the moment too.

And that’s all interesting fodder that we can use to think. And for ourselves, like we were saying to even discover what our need is, there may be a moment where we’re feeling off. We’re feeling a little gnarly. It’s like, oh, is that low energy? Is that because what I’m being asked to do is something I don’t really like to do? There could be so many reasons why we’re feeling off in that moment, and it is so worth understanding because we can’t meet that need until we really understand what it is. If we think it’s because we’re exhausted and we get more rest, et cetera, and then it still bothers us next time. We can keep exploring. Try things, play with things, but what we’re doing is learning about ourselves and that increased self-awareness is so helpful. 

And I too love the weaving in our needs because truly, like you were saying, Erika, we can’t know ahead. We can in general know that we enjoy things and they will fill our cup, et cetera,  and so we can try and find work time, making space and time to do those things. But it doesn’t mean that until that thing happens, I just have to grin and bear it right until the next time I can go to the coffee shop with my friend.

And again, there’s zero judgment on whatever refills our cup or that we enjoy in the moment, anything that brings us energy. But it’s funny at what actually works for us as an individual and then finding ways to weave it into the little things even into our days, whether we have younger kids, older kids, etc.

Maybe somebody’s going through something and there’s lots of heavy conversations. In those times, even especially, it’s important to weave little bits of meeting our needs, little bits of self care, like all those pieces in. And so to not put all this pressure on these bigger things to meet our needs, but rather notice, what if I have my favorite tea or if I go for a walk around the house or if I read two pages of my book? What are the things that just help you ground and recenter and feel a little bit cared for, and then you can share that with the people around. I’m going to go sit and read my book for 10 minutes, then I’ll come and help you with this thing. It’s those narrating pieces. 

Because when you weave it into your day, it’s like an ongoing thing of value, versus, you can do all you want to me, I will do everything. And then once a month I get to go off and do my own thing. That really doesn’t work long term, and really doesn’t help them understand the other person. And the message is they need a break from us. Because we’re a lot. 

But then of course when we’re there, it’s almost like they need more, right? Because it’s like, okay, well I know that they’re there for me. I’ll get them to do all the things. because then they’ll get their escape. It’s just like a different message than just weaving in our needs

ANNA: It’s a very different message. And it was funny because I just jotted the note in front of me while Erika was talking. The pressure that it puts on that time. If it’s going to be this time away. Or this thing, where everything has to be perfect, right? We feel this tension about making it the best we can because it’s going to be the thing that has to refill our cup.

And what we’ve learned so much and talked about so much in the network is that it really is those little moments that actually do so much more for our nervous system and for our ability to be present.  And what you just said, Pam, was important to me. I didn’t want that to be the message, that I need a break from you because that seems to put some kind of responsibility on them too, that they’re too much or there’s something wrong and it’s like, no, I need to figure out how to take care of my needs.

And so switching gears just a tiny bit, going to the practical, I think one of the things that helps with this is to not have that specific outcome in mind. So not thinking that self-care looks like this, or meeting my needs looks like that. So if we take even a specific need, you know, it’s like, okay, there’s different ways to meet that.

This is one you and I have talked about before, Pam, but we both liked writing, and in my head, writing before I had kids was a long block of time with nobody around me. Often it was late at night and it was quiet time and the house was quiet or the apartment was quiet.

Then I had kids and that time didn’t exist. There was a part of me that thought, I guess I’m not writing anymore, or that’s not going to be a part of my life anymore. But it’s opening to actually, what can I do? And it ended up being shorter articles or different things or journaling and I realized, I can fit this in.

But when I was so fixated on it had to look this one way. I ended up feeling disappointed. I probably had an energy about it. It didn’t feel good. And so really letting go of the specific outcome to get into what is it that I enjoy about the particular thing, whatever it is, what is it about it that feeds me?

What is it that I really enjoy? And so for me, it’s playing around, intellectual thought, thinking and putting something down on paper and being able to explain something in a way that makes sense to me and to other people, that’s really fun for me. And so, okay, I can still do that. And so I think that’s a practical piece of it, is to really watch for those set outcomes so that you can get more creative. 

That’s what I love about this process when we’re involving everyone, we’re creating this climate of being creative and solving for these different needs in different ways. And you see it play out with every member of the family, and that gets pretty fun. 

PAM: Can I jump in for a second? Because what bubbled up for me there too is the value of our environment.

So, part of it is figuring out what was it that I liked about the thing. Because I’m like, oh, okay. I really enjoyed this thing. And it was writing for me too, that was a big one. And then it’s like, okay, but what is it that I enjoy? I’m all disappointed because I can’t make it look the way I feel like it needs to look for me.

But once I can move through. Then let’s be a little bit curious, a little bit creative. Let’s brainstorm some ways. And for me, it’s useful to brainstorm as in specifically not discounting every idea I have immediately, before I start to process and discount things. I like to have, I don’t know, at least 10 or 20 ideas in front of me because then they run the gamut, right?

That just kind of breaks the ice for me. I really want it to look this one way. So, that is super helpful for me, the brainstorming piece. Then thinking this way might work. And then it’s setting up my environment to make it as easy as possible for me to pop into that.

Because typically, especially with younger kids, but having kids, your pockets are typically smaller. Like you were saying, late at night or early in the morning while everybody’s sleeping. I remember you talked about Anna, about having your guitar close by.

And I would have my headphones and I had my desk. One of my ideas was I’ll just put my desk downstairs and people will know where I am and they can come. But, oh my gosh, after about a week, that did not feel good. To me, it just felt two separate, too disconnected. So then I popped it up in the middle of the house where everybody was going to be wandering by, and I had some headphones, right?

That way, I wasn’t distracted by every little noise that I heard of somebody playing or whatever, whatever. But they could easily talk to me, they would see me. I would see them walking by and they could grab my attention easily if need be. What we’re doing is sharing our needs. Just by the fact that we’re setting up our environment.

If you want to go write for half an hour, because I know I’m going to be playing away. Our family, our kids want to support us. In the seasons that they can when their needs aren’t heightened or anything, but when they know and when we’re setting up our environment for that it’s obvious, right?

And they’ve got their toys out, they’ve got their things all over the place. Our things can be part of the family too. And then it’s just all of us weaving throughout the day doing the things we want, coming together, splitting apart, maybe a couple over here, just weaving our days together to meet those.

And you know, we feel more seen and heard when our things that we like to do are actually seen by the people and appreciated. Not that we expect them to do them with us or have the same interest, but we can all appreciate everyone’s interests, understanding that we all have things that we like to do. That makes sense.

ERIKA: Anna, when you were bringing up the creativity, it was funny because the note I had written that I wanted to talk about next is that, the creativity that I think this requires in order to meet four people’s needs in a family. We have to be creative about what that can look like.

And it can’t just be one person with the vision of what it should look like with all the ideas and then everyone just follows along, because that isn’t everyone getting their own needs met. And so I think when we talk about everyone’s different needs and meeting them, one thing that can be a stumbling block too, is just the feeling of well, my need is for you to do this.

And so, when we start labeling that our need is for people to do something differently or something for us, then we’re losing the point of the need. Iit is my need and maybe there are people who can help me meet my needs but we can be creative and figure out a way that works for everyone.

That’s not my need, if it is requiring you to do this. I forget what we call that, but basically like it can go from talking about needs to really just trying to control everyone to make the environment the way that feels the most comfortable to us, you know? And so if my need is for quiet, my answer could be for everyone to be quiet.

But really, if I’m creative and if we come up with a family solution that works for everyone, it might not be that they’re quiet. It might be that I find a different place to be or headphones like you’re talking about before. There’s lots of different options. Once we can open up to creative problem solving, rather than just going in with, my need is for you to not need me right now, or whatever might come up in our heads.

ANNA: But I think that’s about not really being able to articulate our needs, not really understanding the process of what our need is and that we’re responsible for it. And I think that’s a practice thing, you know? I think that really, that’s almost that little red flag or reminder that I still have some more work to do to figure out what my actual need here is. Because if it’s to control other people and that’s going to make me happy, you’ll find that that’s a slippery slope that doesn’t really end up working out like you think it will. 

But when we can be real clear about what’s happening, we start to see other options. I think also what’s important about that piece is when we put it on someone else, we can be met with defensiveness or it sets up a dynamic that doesn’t feel as good.

But when I can say, gosh, my head is hurting and I just feel like I need quiet right now because it’s just been such a long day. Then they’re more inclined to say. Oh, I want to help you with that. I can see that you’re hurting or that that doesn’t feel good, but if I’m like, you are too loud, you need to quiet down without giving information about what’s happening for me, then it becomes, okay, wait, you’re saying there’s something wrong with me. You’re saying that I’m doing something wrong or bad, and it creates that defensiveness, or either shame depending on the personality and the child. So just that extra step to really own it is so important. But I think we don’t do that because we haven’t felt our needs were valid.

So, it’s a hard place to go to say, is this need of mind for quiet valid? It’s almost easier to lash out with more of an anger or control piece because that may be what we’re used to seeing. So it’s  cool to unpack that and see what’s really happening there?

ERIKA: Yeah, that was just making me think that it’s part of the pendulum swing too.

When we get too far over, now the kids are having most of, or all of their needs met and we’re ignoring ourselves and trying not to have needs. Then we get that agitation and resentment and then it comes out as, you guys need to do this, you need to stop doing that. Stop being loud, go to sleep, all these things.

I think it’s just kind of getting into that more middle spot on the pendulum where it’s not about controlling the other person, but I’ve been resourcing myself enough that I’m not having those explosions of everyone here needs to change what they’re doing because I have a need right now.

PAM: So often those explosions are out of the blue to them, right? Because we’re trying to hold it back, hold it back, hold it back, and then it just comes bubbling out and they’re like, what the heck? We’ve been doing this for 30 minutes and now all of a sudden it’s bothering you. And then if we don’t give the context, it’s like, oh, is it about me?

There’s just so many mixed messages that can happen there. And yeah, let’s get back to that pendulum swing, and I think what can be really helpful. What I found helpful is as I’m trying to explore and find that middle rhythm, it really was as I’m trying to figure out my needs, it really was bringing that playful attitude to them because it’s like, okay, I think this is my need, and I think something like this will help. 

And then we have that conversation. And like you’re saying, not with a specific outcome, but with understanding. Do you have any ideas on how this can help? That doesn’t mean that’s an answer forever. Whenever we find ourselves in that same situation, like you said,  we just may discover, oh, you know what? That didn’t really help as much as I thought it would. I don’t feel as resourced. I don’t feel like my need was met.

Oh, maybe I hadn’t identified it quite yet, but we’ll be sitting there stewing for ages forever trying, if we wait until we are sure we’ve got to the root of our need. It’s okay to play with it a bit and to bring that lighter energy to it because it is just so much easier to have a conversation about this with someone who is energetically lighter because when the conversation’s heavy, it can feel like it’s a yes or a no kind of thing.

It doesn’t feel like a brainstorming conversation where everybody’s going to be heard and considered. It’s more of an energy okay, we can keep sharing ideas, but until they match the idea you have in your head, you’re not going to agree to it anyway. So why bother having that?

ANNA: That’s my mother-in-law. She keeps asking the question until she gets the answer she wants. So yes, and it’s hard and you can see where she’s coming from, but it’s so hard to have that discussion because it’s not a back and forth. It’s not a, how are you feeling about this? What can we do? There isn’t creativity to it. 

It really can feel fun when we are just figuring it out and sometimes it’s hard. Sometimes there’s high emotions because people are feeling very attached to what they need to do in that moment, or the timelines feel pinched or tight, but there is just this underlying trust of, even if it’s hard in this moment we’re going to figure it out. We’re going to keep at it. We’re going to stretch the timeline sometimes because sometimes we can’t do everything in one moment, but we can do it over a series of time. 

I think sometimes for our needs too, looking at the seasons is important and maybe there’s something I’m interested in doing that doesn’t fit this season, but what else could give me a great feeling or could be fun or stimulating for me that does fit into this season?

So it’s not over attaching to one particular way. That’s what I think you’re talking about Pam. The playfulness and creativity comes into play. And again, that being modeled, that happens for everyone. So, then if you had a child that’s focused on doing this one thing with that as the culture, they may be able to say, okay, I really want to do that, but I guess I can wait till Saturday  when we have more time or your partner’s here, and let’s do this other thing now. 

And because they know we’re going to follow up, we’re going to find a way to do it. And we want to do that for ourselves as well. Just know that we’re not going to keep stuffing the needs down.

We’re going to keep looking and finding those creative ways that fit in our family at this time.

ERIKA: I just want to bring it back one more time to make sure that we’re really digging down though to know that this is our need and not the role of the mom that I’m supposed to be or whatever other kind of external things we might have.

Because I think it could be super distracting to be like, I need to be doing these million things in December to get ready for the holidays because that’s what a good mom would do or whatever kind of ideas we might have in our minds. 

So really tuning into, what do I really love? What do I really like? What really fills me up? And then encouraging everyone else in the family to do the same. That’s when we really get to the real needs. 

PAM: The why behind it. I think that helps. I will remember to link in the show notes, I have a blog post called, Are You Playing the Role of Mother?

It kind of digs into that. It’s really interesting stuff to think about. I love that. All right! Thank you so much for joining us, everyone. We hope you enjoyed our conversation around the value and the importance and the playfulness of weaving our needs into our family’s conversation. And if that’s whet your appetite to explore it more deeply, we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully network.

Imagine no longer feeling so alone in your family’s choices. Imagine being part of a group of like-minded individuals who acknowledge and encourage, and encourage you as we walk alongside each other on this amazing journey. We are so excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. And wishing everyone a lovely day. Bye!

ERIKA: Bye!

ANNA: Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into supporting our children’s inner voices. External messages and cultural roles can disconnect us from our internal wisdom and knowing. Our unschooling lives give us an opportunity to provide time and space for our children to really tune into their inner voices, and showing them that we are curious about their opinions and letting them know that they know best about themselves can lead to increased self awareness and stronger relationships.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Larrichia and Erika Ellis.

Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out the shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

Today we’re going to be talking about allowing space for our children to cultivate their own inner voice. Erika, would you like to get us started? 

ERIKA: I would love to. This is fun because I know that I have mentioned my own children’s inner voices many times on the podcast before, and I think cultivating the space for them to tune into those inner voices is one of the most important things that I can do as a parent.

So when we talk about our inner voice or our children’s inner voices, I think it really relates to the idea that people are different, which is something we’re always mentioning. Our thoughts and our feelings, our bodily sensations and so much more, are unique to us individually. And so, the inner voice is messages from our thoughts, our feelings, and our bodies that tell us what feels good to us, what works well for us, what makes sense for us.

It could be described as our intuition or our gut, like the phrase, listen to your gut or our heart, like the phrase, follow your heart. But the key I think, to all of these is that it’s so internal. It’s unique to us as individuals and no one else can know what our inner voice is saying, but us.

And so, if as parents, we’re constantly telling our children what they should feel and think, or implying that there’s a right way to feel and think about things, our children can become disconnected from what they feel and think for themselves. And I think it’s a pretty common experience in school to kind of lose touch with that inner voice because there are just so many external voices telling children what to do and what is best and what is right.

And so, when we’re talking about unschooling, that is one of the really valuable things I think that we can offer our children is that space and time to cultivate that inner knowing and really encourage them to tune into that inner voice, reassure them that everyone’s experience is different and that they’re the ones who truly know themselves deeply.

And I think having someone there who really believes in their ability to make decisions and believes that they can tune into what works for them, is just super empowering for children as they grow and learn. So, I’m excited to talk about this.

PAM: I’m thinking back to when the kids came home from school we were together all the time. When I think about this, the skill I had to learn and really embrace was patience. They left school, so they had that environment. I had relatively recently left work, all those outer voices were strong.

So to have the patience to hold this space for all of us to actually see what bubbles up for us. I mean, it was hard and it was the most amazing and revealing thing. Over time, wow, it’s amazing where we go when we leave space for this. And also it’s amazing the time that it takes.

We were just so used to the busyness and focusing on accomplishing all these things. We want to do this, well, if we want to do this, then we gotta do this, this, this, and this. It’s just so easy to flip into that kind of busyness mode, that accomplishment mode. But to have that patience and hold up that space for everyone, it was life changing.

These are human beings. This is how wonderfully we can move through the world when we have that chance to actually see what bubbles up. Listen to our inner voice, just absorb what’s going on and make that next choice moving forward.

Even when we’re in the flow. To get into the flow of whatever it is that we’re doing in the moment and just to see where it takes us. It was just very beautiful.

ANNA: So many things that I want to say based on what you just said, but I’m going to go in this direction before I lose it, which was, I think a starting point for me was also to learn to listen to my own inner voice. Because I have a belief, I don’t know if it’s true or not true, but I have a belief that our true inner voice doesn’t seek to control others.

And so when I would see myself saying, you should do this, you should do that, that was actually a voice outside of myself that I had incorporated as an inner voice. That was the society or from my family or from people outside of me or from school. I was just this vessel to pass it on to the next generation.

And that’s the piece I wanted to be hyper aware of. And when I really started to tune into what’s my inner voice, what is my priority here? Who do I want to be in the world? You all have heard me say that a million times. Who do I want to be in the world? That really changed because then I could share what worked for me, I could share what was happening for me, but it didn’t have that energy or that judgment of what the other person was doing. 

So I felt like by me really becoming clear on what my inner voice was telling me, it allowed the space for those around me to hear theirs. And my children never went to school.

And so what I saw was that they really led the way for me, right? Because I feel like we all come into the world knowing who we are and what we want to do and how we want to move in that moment. There’s lots of growth ahead. Obviously I’m still growing, but I think we really do have a good sense of ourselves when we come in and that kind of gets chipped away at by various environments or whatever we were exposed to.

But I found that they had a strong sense of that. And when I could not be this vessel of society’s ‘have tos’, I learned from them and it just came very naturally.

ERIKA: I love that so much. That’s amazing. I feel like a lot of times we may have something that feels like our inner voice. But once we start peeling back the layers, once we start thinking about where did this belief come from? Do I really believe it? There are a lot of these things that were just super ingrained, since childhood, societal messages and so, starting with yourself and starting with, what is my actual inner voice saying?

It helps me be curious about everyone else’s and knowing that people are different and everyone’s inner voice is saying something different. And when you said that they start their lives with that strong inner voice, I think that’s so true and it reminds me of “difficult toddlers”, you know, once they start to have their opinions about things and it can be frustrating sometimes for parents. They are thinking they have to try to make them do this thing and they don’t want to do this thing.

But if we can trust that they know what works for them and really value learning more about them and being curious about what their inner voice is telling them and taking that seriously, then I think that builds trust. We talked about it recently as well. Just showing them, yes, I care about what your body and your mind is saying about this thing.

If you’re feeling unsafe in this situation, if you’re feeling like this is not exciting for you, this is not interesting for you. Any of those things, where kids may be giving us a clear message of, I don’t like this. If we can show them that it matters. Your opinion about this is important and I want to learn more about what’s going on for you in that situation. I think that will just really strengthen the relationship too.

PAM: Oh yeah. I think it really, really does. It helps them feel seen and heard. It helps us learn more about them and helps them build trust in themselves. And confidence in themselves.

And another thing I wanted to pick up along those lines is when we talk about supporting them and helping them listen to their inner voices, that does not mean everything is going to go perfectly. It’s back to that open and curious and to recognizing that we’re learning about ourselves and we’re learning about things.

We’re learning about our world, our environment, the people that we live with. It doesn’t mean that everything, that every choice that they make is going to unfold the way they expected, right? That’s  how we are learning more. I thought it was going to go this way. And it really went in a completely different direction.

And maybe I’m super not happy about that right now. But it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, and it doesn’t mean that I should have jumped in and stopped them from following that choice or doing that thing, right? 

ANNA: That just sparked something to me because also the reverse. So, bear with me. The stakes are a little bit lower when they’re younger, and sometimes we’ll hear people say, well, I pushed them to do the thing they didn’t want to do, and they ended up having fun. They ended up enjoying it. And so, that’s an interesting thing because right. And there’s nothing wrong about that necessarily. But I think it’s interesting when you look at it through this lens because it kind of chips away.

And so while you were saying, sometimes they do something and it goes awry, maybe sometimes they make a choice not to go somewhere and they have a regret later, or they think, maybe I would’ve liked that. Or their sibling went and had fun and they feel bad. But that’s learning. That’s them learning about themselves versus thinking, I don’t make good decisions, so someone else needs to make the decision for me. I don’t know what’s best for me, so someone else needs to do it.

So it’s not about the mistake, that’s where the learning is. And so if we can, when the stakes are low, really allow that in childhood, they’re building this resilience, this understanding of themselves how to change and pivot when they realize, I wish I’d done that, or I wish I hadn’t done that, or whatever the case might be. We’re giving them an opportunity to learn more about themselves because the stakes get higher, and what I didn’t want is for them to be second guessing those feelings of safety.

When the stakes are higher in the future, I really wanted them to tune into that inner voice and if it meant them not going to the event with us, which was probably neither here nor there, if that helped them build that understanding of themselves and that trust in their voice, that worth way more than the show or the photo op or the family Christmas, you know? 

And so I think just really looking at this broader picture and bringing this lens to it, thinking about how do we develop an inner voice? How do we develop a strong inner voice that serves us? I think that’s really fascinating when we look at these relationships.

ERIKA: Those conversations can be so interesting too. And I’ve had lots of those situations where it feels like there’s something in their inner voice that’s saying they might not be interested in this thing, but it’s not a strong No, it’s a, I don’t really know enough about it.

There’s all this nuance to it. So I really feel like if we can go into the conversations without the agenda of, my way’s the right way. I have to try to convince them as hard as I can to do this thing. Then they might be open enough to have conversations where we can ask, what is it about it that feels bad?

What is it about it that you are interested in? And just kind of figure out what the pieces are. I might have told this story before, but when we were at this trampoline place, I just had the sense that Oliver would love to jump on the trampoline, but he was standing on the edge and saying he could not do it.

And so we just kept watching and looking and I was saying, it looks like you know you’re interested in it or it looks like that might be fun for you. You love jumping, kind of thing. And so in the end he did end up doing it, but it was this whole process of, let me hear the concerns. Let’s talk about what it’s like.

Let’s look around and see how safe it seems. And I think in that case it was probably because there were so many other kids there. And so just reassuring him that I was right there and I wouldn’t be leaving. That was the big thing for him at that time. But I wouldn’t have known that necessarily.

He could have been scared he was going to get hurt or he could have been worried  about any number of things. And so I think that’s what’s kind of interesting about this is the conversations and what you can learn about, about your kids.

PAM: What helped me do that was that patience lens. To just be patient. And as I’ve learned later, not having an agenda. Because the conversations aren’t like that. Those conversations aren’t very fruitful if they feel like they have a leading energy, even if we don’t say the words, because the energy is just so big. It’s not just about the word.

So even if we don’t try to convince them, there’s a tone, a rising end to the question. There is just a leading energy when it’s something that we think would be good for them. And the other piece I wanted to mention that I think is so valuable is that we can also feel like at this moment that maybe we’ll never come to a trampoline place again. Like this has to happen now. And the idea, Anna, that there’s plenty of time, your plenty of time mantra, that we have talked about on the podcast before. It’s okay to say no and regret doesn’t mean it was a mistake.

This is all just learning. Next time you can make a different choice. Right? And I think that it’s something that’s beautiful for them to bring with them as they get older and situations become a little more nuanced. Situations may have more implications.

But there still is plenty of time. A similar choice is probably going to come up again. And what you’re learning from whatever your choice is and however it unfolds, is knowledge you will be able to bring with you. The next time a similar situation arises because it really will.

ANNA: Yeah, yeah, for sure. We’ll get lots of chances. I’m going to go back to the trampoline example because I think what’s so beautiful about that is, and I think it can be kind of a litmus test. Is, am I leading them towards an outcome? Am I leading him towards jumping or am I leading him towards understanding himself better?

And that was really what you were describing there. So, I just wanted to put words to it because what you were helping him do was tease out the pieces of, this feels scary, or I’m not sure about that. Or what about this? And that’s helping him listen to his inner voice, maybe giving words to some things he might not have experience with.

But it wasn’t with the idea that I’m going to talk you into jumping because I know you’re going to like jumping. You saw a little glimmer of, I think he’s interested in this. I want to dig in a little bit more. And I think that’s just that litmus test. Do I have this outcome that I think is best or am I really just giving them, like we’re talking about in this whole episode, space to cultivate that inner voice, listen to it, ask some questions, and move forward no matter what, because maybe that time he wasn’t going to be ready. He wanted to take all that in and next time you’d come back he’d be ready to do the jump. And that would’ve been just fine too. So I love that piece.

And I think that’s the nuance of are we leading them towards an outcome we want or are we giving them space to really hear themselves and recognizing that, yes, sometimes, we can all get confused and feel a little nervous about this thing. And then I can talk to somebody that helps me figure out how I’m feeling. So, I think that’s a beautiful nuance.

ERIKA: Yes. And that made me think about the conversations that we have really help us. Even just a regular conversation. So maybe not even in that high stakes moment is what I’m thinking about, right?

Not when we’re standing on the edge of a trampoline, but when we’re just hanging out, having conversations where we’re showing that people have different feelings and opinions about things. People are different. And really talking to our kids about how people are different.

Maybe not even using myself as an example because I know sometimes there’s some weight to that of like, this is what I think is best. Right? And so then kids can be influenced thinking, oh, well mom likes that. But just saying, this guy feels nervous about going off the curb on the street. This other guy climbs up Yosemite with no ropes.

So people have different feelings about safety and climbing, things like that. And so then when we’re in places. Where they’re listening to their bodies and listening to themselves about, does this feel safe to me? They have that experience of some people feel really comfortable with this, some people don’t, and that’s okay.

How do I feel? And opinions about things too, asking their opinions about things rather than saying, this is good, this is bad. This is what I like, and so therefore you should like it. And I really think it’s a red flag that I’m not listening to their inner voice if I find myself trying really hard to convince them to do something.

So, I can recognize that and realize that I have a bit of an expectation. I’m just hoping that they’ll like this thing, that I have stopped listening to what their real opinions are about it.

PAM: I think that is super, super valuable because it does not help to put expectations of perfection on ourselves, right?

It’s like, what are the clues that, for me, I might be pushing past something that I have the intention of not doing. Who do I want to be? What kind of parent do I want to be? Just noticing even after an interaction. Because things are going to go sideways with our kids. They are going to feel like we pushed them or we were trying to convince them even if we didn’t mean to. But that’s a learning experience for us too. Looking at the exchange. 

Did it feel like I kind of tipped over a line? How was I feeling? What was it? What was my capacity? Maybe I’m looking for bigger picture patterns in my life, just to find the clues to help me be the person that I want to be. And I want to be someone who cultivates and supports my child listening to and learning their inner voice. I know you’re talking about putting words to their inner voice, because sometimes it’s just a feeling.

That’s what processing is. It’s figuring out and putting words to the things that we’re feeling that are bubbling up for us. Maybe our inner voice is trying to communicate with us or trying to just knock on our brain for a moment. So,I think that it is a beautiful thing to be able to look for the little clues in our lives because they are unique to us.

People are different again. And what are the little pieces that can help me find a moment to just help myself switch a little bit to be more of the person I want to be in the moment because yeah, it’s never perfect. And to put an expectation on our relationship that things are going to be perfect doesn’t help.

That changes our inner voice as well, because all of a sudden trying to meet expectations which are out there or even if they’re expectations we’re putting on ourselves, they’re outside weights that we’re putting on. Right. And that tamps down any inner voices and then we have more work to do. 

ANNA: Right. I think that when you have that feeling like you were describing Erika, because we’ve all had it, like I’m pushing a little bit hard here. That’s my cue to ask. where’s that coming from? Because again, I really do believe our inner voice doesn’t seek to control others. I think that’s outside expectations.

I think that’s baggage that we’re hearing. And so that’s my first little clue. And that’s why I say ‘there’s plenty of time’ all the time because it slows me down. If there’s plenty of time for them to try this thing, do this thing, I can slow down and tease apart what are the expectations I’m bringing to it, what kind of outside voices are influencing me in this moment?

And so remembering there is plenty of time is key for me. You two know, I use it all the time to just slow myself down because I can just get on a track and I really do miss the little cues from the people around me. 

ERIKA: And I feel like it’s even harder to remember that there’s plenty of time if the decisions feel more intense, maybe things related to their health or things about food or if they’re having an interest that feels scary to us.

These more activating moments with our kids where it feels like if I can’t convince them that I know what’s right, things might just go off the rails. Even in those times, there’s plenty of time is super helpful. And remembering that their inner voice applies to things like their body’s health and what they should eat and what they’re interested in.

All of those things too. And people are different in those areas as well. And so if we can just still keep some of that open, curious mindset, even in those heavier weighted areas that we may feel like we have super strong beliefs about. That’s just going to help them feel supported and know that they can trust us to do this processing and figure out what works for them.

PAM: For me, that’s what it boils down to. That patience lens was so helpful. Plenty of time is helpful. Being open and curious helps me with patience. All those ideas just weave together for me when it comes to helping each person listen to, hear or act from, even if they don’t quite understand their inner voice but to make the choices that feel best in this moment. Within what’s going on for them and what’s going on around them.

ANNA: Because I think that creating that environment is part of letting them know there’s plenty of time. You may be getting some mixed messages inside of you. Slow it down and take your time because your body’s going to tell you, you’re going to learn things and it’s okay to try. I’m grateful for this episode because I think it is really something that we all want, we want our kids to listen to their inner voice.

But bringing some intention to what it looks like to create that space is really cool.

ERIKA: Can I add one more little thing I just thought of? 

ANNA: Yes, please! 

ERIKA: Okay. So, for those things like health and food and scary interests and things that have weight, but also the expectations of outside people also can feel like a weight.

And so one thing that I want to remind myself is that listening to your inner voice is more important than what some outside person is thinking about what you’re doing. As an example, if they’re feeling like there’s too many people in here and that they need to leave, but this is at a family party, to me, it’s more important that they are tuning into that and knowing that they’re feeling overwhelmed and stepping away, rather than worrying about disappointing these other family members. And so, really valuing that inner voice development in the kids more than what the outside people are saying.

ANNA: And I think something that happens there is we actually give people permission to do that themselves. I definitely would have that with my oldest. I would just frame it like, I love it that she knows herself so well that she needs some space right now.

And I mean, invariably somebody would say. I wish I was better at that, or, there are times I want to get out of here and then it becomes light and laughter. Whereas I have absolutely had the feelings you’re talking about there too, where I’m thinking, are we hurting somebody’s feelings? Is the host going to think we don’t like them?

But that’s outside, right? My inner voice isn’t trying to control anyone and can share those beautiful connecting pieces. That outside voice is when I’m trying to control all the things. And so it’s just that litmus test.

PAM: And those were moments when, over time, where I would just step in and I would just actively share the positive perspective, right?

It’s protective of the person who just needs to do whatever it is they need to do. Also, like you were saying, it’s planting that seed that it’s okay. And I’m almost talking to myself when I am talking about how that’s a positive thing and a great thing to do.

Like they say, I wish I could and I say, I wish I could.

ANNA: Oh my goodness. Okay. As always, so much fun, you two. Thank you both for being here, and thank you to everyone who is listening. We hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey and just your journey in life in general. And if these kinds of conversations are fun for you, please, please, please join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

We have so much fun and so many interesting conversations. I get so much out of it every day. I am so grateful for it. We would love to see you there and you can learn more about it in the show notes. You can visit livingjoyfully.ca/network or livingjoyfullyshop.com. We hope to see you there and thanks so much for listening!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the popular maxim known as the Golden Rule, which states, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

Once we realize how different people are, however, we can see how treating others how we would like to be treated may fall short in our relationships. We dive into an updated version, “Treat others how they would like to be treated,” which really means learning more about the people we care about. Using this phrase as a guide can serve to deepen our relationships and strengthen our feelings of connection.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello, to you both. And today we’re going to talk about life beyond the Golden Rule. I’m looking forward to diving into this one. 

But before we get started, have you visited Living joyfully shop.com lately? Our online shop has Pam’s unschooling books, lots of helpful coaching options and online courses such as Four Pillars of Unschooling, if you’re newer to unschooling and Navigating Conflict, if you’d like ideas to help you navigate conflicts in your relationships. We also have courses on Validation and navigating Unschooling Wobbles at the shop. You can learn more about the Living Joyfully network, as well. We’re excited to be creating a one-stop shop to support you along your unschooling journey, and we hope you’ll check it out.

And Pam, would you like to get us started about the Golden Rule?

PAM: Sure. And to get us all started on the same foot, The Golden Rule is basically – treat others as you would like them to treat you. It’s kind of wrapping it up, and I do think that can be a great start on the journey of exploring and choosing how we treat other people.

It’s a reminder to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes to imagine how we’d like to be treated in those circumstances. And that comes with the assumption built into it that we treat ourselves reasonably nicely and then consider doing that instead of reacting more negatively. Right? It is just a nice reminder to treat people nicely, and I think it’s got that nice hook of putting yourself in the situation.

What we want to talk about today is taking that next step beyond the golden rule. I think it is to bring in what is becoming one of our mantras. People are different. Because in some situations, even in many situations, the way that I’d like to be treated may be very different from how someone else would like to be treated.

I mean, as I was thinking about this, it reminded me of a question you asked recently in the network, Anna, how do you like to be comforted when you’re sad or upset? It’s been so interesting to read the replies to that, right? Because while there are definitely some similarities between the answers, there are definitely some distinct differences and so many nuances.

Because we’re real people. So what helps me move beyond the golden rule really is to try to see the situation through their eyes. That’s that next little shift that helps me. So if I was them, what would this look like? What would it feel like? Doing that means considering their personality, their likes, their dislikes, their strengths, the things they find challenging.

All those pieces that make up who they are. And then from there, I feel much better equipped to empathize with them, to validate their view of things.  And we’re in that space to share suggestions that are a better fit for them, rather than sharing the things I’d want to do in their shoes. So, it is just that little flip that really helps take it beyond the golden rule of putting myself into everybody else’s shoes and what I would like to happen, so that the world is all about me.

And then recognizing that people are different. And in this situation, what does it look like to the other person? 

ANNA: I do feel like it’s a great place for people to start, right? Because it’s that idea of being kinder and thinking, how would I want to be treated?

And that gives you that little bit of pause, which is always so important. I remember when I was first thinking about this, which has been, gosh, like 25 years ago now. I switched  it to – treat everyone how they want to be treated. That was my quick around. I love now that we have over the years really gone into what you talk about, Pam, which is again, seeing through their eyes.

Because I think whatever visual helps you to really pull back a little bit and understand them. So, wondering, how do they want to be treated? That’s where we can get curious, right? We can think, we are different and we can leave space for what they want in this moment?

Because that question was a perfect example from the network. Some wanted to be left alone, some wanted to be held, some wanted to be talked to, some to process. And that’s just with one tiny little thing of how do you like to be comforted in a situation? There’s so many ways of how you want to interact?

What kind of jobs do you want? What kind of places do you want to go? How do you like to spend your time? All of these things come into play when we think about how we move through situations differently. And if we are thinking, I want to treat them how I want to be treated, we’re going to miss a lot.

And I think it can actually be really disconnecting, which is sad because that’s not the intent behind the golden rule. It isn’t to create a disconnect, but I think if you think about it, it really can. If someone is treating you in the way that they want to  be treated, but it doesn’t feel like they see you or really are honoring you, or know who you are at that moment, it can feel really disconnecting.

ERIKA: Oh, I really like that. And, when I was thinking about the intention that a lot of us have, as unschooling parents with our kids and with our families, we really do intend to have this deep connection, these strong relationships.

And so if that’s the intention, then we have to go beyond the golden rule to really hearing what the other person likes, what really works for them. Sometimes it’s an easier thing to just be like, well, what would I like in this situation? And then we’ll just assume that’s what everyone likes and just do that.

So it may take a little bit more time and digging and curiosity and asking the people, how did it feel when I did that? What would work better for you in that situation? Like that question in the network, How do you like to be comforted is so huge and it reminds me, if I’m sick I want attention and if my husband’s sick he wants to be left alone. And that is just one part of life. This one small thing where if I treat him the way I want to be treated, I would be doting on him all day and giving him a lot of attention and asking him about his symptoms and trying to figure things out. Because that’s what feels better to me. 

But if he leaves me alone, which he does, or if I am too  in his business, which I would tend to do for him, it’s like we are missing what actually really feels good to each other. I think I could come up with a million examples of just little differences between me and my kids, me and my husband, where if I were to put myself in their shoes, I’m going to make a completely different decision than they will.

PAM: I love that you brought up intention because that’s a really huge piece of it. What is my intention here? That helps me broaden my perspective when I am considering and talking to them and asking them. And we can write stories. If I was putting myself in your shoes, if I’m sick and wanting people to come and ask and to talk about symptoms and to try and help and somebody isn’t coming, we can be telling the story to ourselves that they don’t care. They’re just happy for me to be sick, Versus understanding other people and where they’re coming from. So it doesn’t mean that we’re all perfectly acting. You know what I mean? But it is such a great reminder, even in those moments when we’re literally not connecting and talking to people to understand that the story that we’re writing might not be what’s actually going on.

ANNA: Yeah, that’s definitely where I was going. Which is just, then it creates the stories, right? Then we write the story of what it means, but it’s really the same piece in that we’re writing the story of what would that action mean if we were doing it. So what would the action mean of me not checking on you if I were doing it, so if in your case, Erika it might mean that you don’t like the person. You don’t have time for them or whatever. It might be the reason you would ignore someone if they were not feeling well. But for Josh, that’s not at all what he’s thinking. 

And I’m more like him in that I just want to be left alone. I like check-ins periodically if I’m super sick. But not a lot of questions and a lot of other things. Because it just feels like weight to me. But that’s what’s so cool about this is you can see just even this little exchange in conversation, we’re learning more about each other and so when we can bring that kind of curiosity to it and no weight about what it means or thinking there’s one right way or any of those pieces, it becomes kind of fun to figure out and ask the questions.

And I think sometimes maybe we haven’t been encouraged to ask the questions or to be curious. We kind of had this idea of, okay, a person’s sick, you take care of them in X, Y, Z way. Maybe our parents passed that on to us or we got it from movies or wherever. But isn’t it kind of neat to just say, what do you want when you’re not feeling good? And here’s what I want and here’s what I’ve been thinking about and just opening up more lines of communication to kind of understand these deeper pieces. Because I think sometimes as humans or especially now, we may think that people aren’t interested in those things, but our closest people really are interested and I think if we model that, being interested in them, it really can help.

ERIKA: I like rewriting it to, what you were saying, Anna. Try to treat others as they want to be treated themselves. But, right. I think maybe it feels like they would tell me if it wasn’t working for them. You may have to get extra curious and really just check in with the people, which I just think would bring so much to the relationship too. Because that’s the thing that I love about it,  let’s learn more about the people in our lives. It’s just so interesting. And the more that we can just be curious and ask these questions, when I did that, how did it feel? And that may feel like a question that has never been asked in your whole life. And so it may feel a little bit awkward to have conversations like that, but it really is how you figure out more about the people in your lives and the people that you want to be close to.

So I think that  kind of a shortcut of the golden rule when you’re just out in public, pushing your shopping cart to the side because that’s what you would like for other people to do. Those kinds of things work. But when it’s these close connections and people that you really want to be close to. Then asking the questions and just checking in and giving them the narration of, when I am having this situation, I love it when other people do this or, I really feel supported when you do this for me. Just to give information. I think it’s just another thing that can help us deepen our relationships.

PAM: I really think that helps so much with the connection, the understanding, the empathy, the ability to see through someone else’s eyes more deeply because, we’re guessing, we’re trying. And then you’ve got some who aren’t so much into conversations, so then you’re like trying something and seeing what the reaction, how does that unfold and trying different things.

It doesn’t literally need to be conversations, but the exchange of information being open and curious about it, whether you’re looking for clues or you’re asking questions. I think one little thing that was helpful for me was if someone was sick and not feeling well, when someone’s off or it’s a challenging moment, in the actual moment isn’t a great time to have the conversation.

But it doesn’t mean we don’t, we can talk about it a little bit later and then to be able to bring that understanding next time. When Rocco’s sick, and he likes to be checked on and I’m more of a, I’ll let you know if I need something.

We can make that little joke. It can lighten because, I’m seeing this through your eyes and I want to treat you the way you would like to be treated. And I have the capacity to do this, so it’s a deeper level we were talking about, of those stronger relationships.

To be able to even just on a meta level, discuss this depth of understanding we have of the other person and bring that into the conversation as well, because we can also change over time.

ANNA: Right. I feel like it might feel more awkward than it is. Because as you all were talking, I was thinking I do tend to like to be left alone in a lot of different situations.

But really, I think if someone asked me a question like that, I would feel pretty seen by that. Because it’s not like they’re pushing something on me. They’re asking, Hey, what would feel good to you? Or did this feel okay? Or, this is what I’m thinking or what I like. That would be interesting to me.

That would be an interesting conversation. I might not want it to be really, really long. But I think I would feel really seen by that. So it’s interesting to think even when you know you have a child that maybe doesn’t like to have big, long conversations. Sometimes I wonder if that’s because we are kind of inserting our piece into the communication of that conversation maybe a little bit more strongly, and maybe ‘not liking conversations, is a sign we’re not hearing them.

We’re not giving them a chance to say what’s happening for them. So, I don’t know. I think it’s interesting to just play with the idea. Again, it’s just learning more about each other and learning more about how we want to have these conversations? Is it better to have some kind of trial and error and do different things?

Is it better to have that conversation before or after, or a little bit during, you know, that’s the fun of learning to live with other people and figuring out what makes sense.

ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. And it’s kind of inspiring me to maybe ask that question a little bit more often with my kids. Because I think one thing that can happen is, we get in the role of parent or, this is how I’ve always done it. But we know that our kids change as they grow. And so, it totally makes sense to keep checking in. Even if you used to love this, is it still feeling good? Or, I really love when someone does this, how does it feel to you? Just those little curious questions to get to know them better.

PAM: Yeah. And I think I really like that perspective of not just like, okay, I know you now, even with other adults, even with your partner, because I know myself, things change over time. The way I like to show up to things, the things that I like to show up for, the things that have kind of run their course and now I’m not really interested in them as much anymore.

Just helping other people understand us. And just sharing, like you were talking about narrating there before, Erika. Like just being able to share those little pieces along the way so that we continue to understand and even celebrate those changes. Not make someone feel bad that they have changed.

You don’t like that anymore. We used to have so much fun doing that together. I’m going to miss that. Versus really diving into who they are right now.

ANNA: Right. We’re making a big deal otherwise. I just thought of an example from my life. So in the early years, everyone that knows me would have said, Anna doesn’t like to hug. Pam, you probably even knew that about me from 25 years ago. It’s interesting, as I did work on my trauma and my pieces, turns out that I do actually like to hug people, especially people that I’m close to or friends with or really in a lot of different environments. But because it was like a thing, people make a big deal about it – wait! You don’t like that! And so, then it’s just like, okay, nope, I don’t like it. Forget it. It doesn’t give me room to change or grow. And so, I think that’s the piece, right? The open and curious piece of not assigning, whether it’s how we would see the situation or how we think they would see the situation.

Get more information or leave space for it to unfold. And I think that is just worth so much more than just the golden rule and ending there. But I also like what you said too, Erika, just about the golden rule, out in the supermarket. It makes a lot of sense. It’s a very good place to start. I want to be kind to people. I would like them to be kind to me. That feels nice. And then in my closer relationships, in my more intimate relationships, what’s that next step to really deepen that connection and understanding of each other.

ERIKA: Well, this has been a lot of fun. I really love this little topic, so I hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an a-ha moment or got some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these types of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on living joyfully shop.com, and we hope to meet you there. So, thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Welcome to you both!

Today we are going to talk about navigating disagreements with our partner because that’s something that happens. We’re different people after all. But before we dive in, we would like to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.

There is so much value in doing that deep personal work that the Unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges, and I think that’s where the power of community shines because you are no longer alone. You are part of a group of like-minded individuals who are on a similar journey, who acknowledge and encourage you. 

As you walk alongside each other you can learn from their experiences, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate their family’s day-to-day needs and disagreements with their partner. It’s not just about getting answers to your questions. It’s about exchanging ideas, broadening perspectives, and just feeling part of something bigger.

One of our members, Carolyn shared, “The Living Joyfully Network is truly a global community of strangers who become friends, a group of people who are living intentionally, hearing each other, holding space for one another, supporting one another, lifting each other up and inspiring one another.”

And, I just got goosebumps again because that’s how I feel when I step into the Network every day.

So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu.

And now Anna, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would! I feel like learning how to navigate disagreements is so important for any relationship because there are going to be times when we don’t see eye to eye and finding ways to express our needs and to really hear the other person is critical to finding mutually agreeable solutions and just living joyfully together. 

Not surprisingly, I’m going to start with understanding that people are different. We really see the world differently. We prioritize different things. We have different histories and triggers that show up in different places in our lives.

And so when we start there, I think it allows us to not bring defensiveness into the equation when there’s a disagreement. We can be curious like, okay, wow, they’re seeing this really differently than I am, what’s going on? I want to understand, versus they’re seeing this differently, there’s something wrong with me, I’ve done something wrong. This is when we’re making it about us. And so I think that really understanding differences and getting excited and curious about it is a big, big important first step in this idea of navigating these disagreements.

Remember, this is somebody that you love. This is a partner, someone you’ve chosen to spend your life with. And I mean, I want to understand my partner. I want him to feel seen and heard, and you both want to feel comfortable with the decisions you’re making as a family because that just feels better.

It just feels better when you can get to that place of understanding each other. And the tools that we talk about so often come into play. Honestly, I’m not even sure if we can cover them all, so maybe we’ll just pick a few really important ones. The first one that really comes to mind for me when we have a disagreement is validation.

Because that’s our chance to really hear and to validate what your partner is telling you. And remember, you do not have to agree with somebody to validate their experience and you don’t have to change your mind to find a solution. Because I think that’s where we dig in. Thinking, I’ve been researching unschooling for years and they don’t know anything and I’m just going to dig my heels in.

But we’re missing that nuance of what’s happening for that other person. When we get defensive about it, when we dig our heels in. We don’t have to change our mind to really hear. This is feeling hard for you. This isn’t making sense for you. You’re feeling worried or nervous about this.

Validation helps move from that surface level statement to what the underlying needs are, and what I found is that, so often in that space of underlying needs, there’s common ground. We love our kids, we want our kids to feel good and to have a good life. We can find that common ground.

And from there then we’re able to move towards, okay, and how do we get to that? How do we navigate all of those pieces? Remembering that their concerns are a reflection of what’s happening for them. It’s not a commentary or a criticism of you. I think that’s important because it may be reflecting a little bit of disconnection.

Maybe your partner happens to work outside of the home and maybe doesn’t have the connection that you have, and so those concerns are a reflection of that. It’s not a commentary about you, it really is just. Oh wow. They don’t see these pieces. I want them to feel safe and comfortable, you know?

And so I think just that little bit of shifting your mindset around it and moving to that place of listening and validating really can help the energy of those conversations come down and it becomes this collaboration.

ERIKA: Yeah, the defensiveness is the enemy of validation.

That’s the thing that just makes it so hard in that moment. So, noticing that defensiveness in myself as a red flag, this is something where something is triggering me with what they’re saying. How can I move through that so that I can validate? 

What people bump up against with validation is ideas like, but I know that this is better. I have to try to convince the other person. I have to try to convince my partner because otherwise, it’s all going to go off the rails. I know that this is important and I need to convince, and so, let me convince. I just need to figure out the right thing to say, to convince and defend my way and convince them.

It’s just the opposite of validating. But we need to remember that validation isn’t changing our mind. It’s not giving up. It’s not like now everything’s going to be just how they want it to be. It really is just about lowering the intensity of the conversation, having our partner feel understood and heard, and really being honest about our own vulnerable concerns and worries too. Because I think a lot of times if my husband has a concern about bedtime or whatever and tells me about it, I probably have concerns too. But my reaction is going to be to defend and say we’re doing this right and I know the way.

But really if we can both come at it as, okay, I have these concerns too. You have these concerns, this is real, and we are having these fears come up and it’s safe to talk about it. It’s safe to acknowledge you are having fears come up. And just really hearing, and validating means reflecting back what they’re saying and showing that you heard what they said and what they’re feeling.

I think it’s about understanding ourselves better, seeing what is a trigger and what’s causing defensiveness in ourselves, and then also knowing that the same thing is happening for them. They’re having their own triggers and having their own things that are being brought up from whatever their past is.

I think just being aware that all of that is happening underneath helps me come to it without that defensiveness. We’re just two different people. We have a lot of history of our own that’s coming into this and can we just take a moment to listen to each other?

PAM: Yeah, In my experience when I was not able to get to that validation place, where I just got stuck in that defensive place, we really were just batting it back and forth, trying to find the right words to convince the other person that we were right.

And it was just however long we managed to stay at it. Us just trying to say the exact same thing in a bit of different words, right? Trying to convince the other one why our way of looking at the thing was better or more right or whatever. And theirs was wrong. 

We were stuck in that somebody’s right, somebody’s wrong. Somebody has to give in. Somebody has to win. Somebody has to lose. That whole dynamic. But yes, my understanding of an ability to engage in validation shifted hugely when I realized or learned from Anna and the world at that time, that I didn’t have to agree with what they were saying to be able to validate their experience. That was a game changer for me because it helped me to recognize the importance and the value of seeing situations and circumstances through their eyes as well as my own. Understanding myself to a new level.  And triggers, those are always a big piece of it too. Recognizing triggers our own, and understanding they’re from our past experiences and they are our truth, right?

But coming to recognize that their perspective is as valid to them as mine is, to me. Releasing that whole right wrong dynamic and judgment piece is hard. Because the way we see things is absolutely our truth, right? But that was really the way. When the other person, and think about ourselves. When we feel seen and heard, it’s like, oh, like I can put down the shield, I can put down the defensiveness.

It’s like, okay, you hear me. You see my energy in reaction to whatever has come up. And now I  feel like I can be so much more open. And I find that when the other person feels seen and heard, like that’s when we can move out of discussions about this moment. Like, we’re not stuck here and actually start to meet each other where we are.

So, that’s what was going through my mind, Anna, when you were talking about our partners being out of the house a good chunk of the day. They don’t see X, Y, and Z. So it’s not me trying to convince them and bat them over the head. It’s me meeting them with, if I didn’t know that, I would think that too. If I didn’t see all these other little pieces, like I can meet them where they are. 

And then that’s where our more fruitful conversations that actually make some progress will be. That’s where we can talk about ourselves as human beings, as in people are different. This is the way I saw the thing. This is the way you saw the thing. Again, not right, wrong, not judging, but understanding the different perspectives. 

And when we feel seen and heard, we can be so much more open to how things might unfold from there. We don’t have to come up with an answer. I think that’s the other thing in a disagreement, maybe where we want to move forward is let’s keep this in the back of our minds and then we’ll be maybe messaging each other over the next week or two.

Because now that that’s bubbling up for us, we’re going to be paying a little bit more attention. We’re going to be noticing the things in front of us that relate to whatever we’re having a disagreement about, right? And then we can come to a more commonplace together that incorporates all our pieces.

When the energy is down and we’re not feeling that defensiveness, we can be more open. It doesn’t have to be our solution. And it may end up being how we move forward weeks and months, is not the way either one of us first came to it. The disagreement, right? It’s like a new way makes sense..

This makes sense to you, and together we can walk down this path, but when you’re stuck in that defensiveness stage, you’re never going to be able to, or very rarely going to be able to get to the common path forward. The path that works for both of you. And validation really is that first step to take the energy out of that defensiveness.

ANNA: Right. Right. And it does help move us from that black and white right and wrong paradigm. I think it’s so critical and all of these pieces that we’re going to talk about are related, but  I’m just going to highlight it. It’s assuming positive intent, which we talk about a lot as well.

And what I’ve found is that it helps give me a little bit of a pause.Okay, let me just turn my thinking brain on versus my defensive maybe more primal brain. I just want to assume positive intent. They’re trying to figure something out.

They’re trying to understand something about our family, or they love their kids, or they love me. And it’s interesting because I’ve had people say. How can it be positive intent if they’re grumping about this or whatever? The next step of assuming positive intent is they’re doing the best they can in that moment.

Something is dysregulating to them and they are trying to figure out how to feel more regulated. Like they’re trying to figure out how, what can I control or do that will make me feel better? So when I can recognize, oh, that’s it. I can have so much more compassion. So again, it’s not about me, that’s information about them and their state of mind and what’s happening for them.

And me actually coming in with that defensive energy can just cause them to double down. Everything just kind of derails from there. And so when I can come from an assuming positive intent, compassionate space. It opens things up and I think that validation is that first step because that’s when we can feel heard. If we don’t feel heard, most likely you’re going to get louder.

And so, if we can feel heard, then a lot of times it can bring that energy down. And when I’m assuming positive intent, it’s easier to validate. For some people this is more of a trigger than others, but I definitely have a friend, who if she feels we are not giving her a generous assumption, it is very hurtful because she knows she’s coming from a place with a big heart trying to solve something.

And so if someone makes a judgment about her, thinking that she’s not coming from that place, it’s really hurtful and it derails. And this trust that we talked about a few weeks ago, it really derails that. So when we can come to someone assuming positive intent, they feel that energy, they feel that connection.

They feel understood and see we are trying, and that we’re trying to have a conversation and we want to help them get regulated and feel better to move through this upset. And so I think for me, assuming positive intent is just, it’s a reminder. It slows me down, it connects me with the person I want to be, which is to show up with compassion for the people in my life.

And so I think it’s another one that I just wanted us to highlight today. 

ERIKA: It’s a huge one for me and a challenging one for me. What happens in my life is, maybe Josh will make a meal that has something that I said I don’t like. And then rather than assume positive intent, which is that he’s trying to make a good meal for everyone.

I assume, I write a story that he doesn’t care about me, he wants to serve things I don’t like. I mean, this is when I’m at my low points. So assuming positive intent to me is, it’s not about me. I need to tell people what’s going on for me. People can’t read your mind. That part to me works right into assuming positive intent. So if I haven’t shared that something’s bothering me and someone does it. It’s not because they’re trying to hurt me, it’s because they can’t read my mind. And so assuming positive intent is a way to avoid getting defensive.

And so then that’s the path towards then being able to validate and have more productive conversations. I used to bristle at the idea of it’s not about me because I feel like I just want it to be about me, and why wouldn’t it be about me? Why wouldn’t he know everything about what I like and what I need and be able to read my mind and be able to predict what would be good for me?

This is major work for me to do in relationship, and it just helps so much. If I can think, okay, that’s a different person, not inside of my mind, another person who’s doing the absolute best that he can at all times. And assuming that what he’s doing is, is either trying to help himself feel better, trying to help the family, or just making the decisions that he thinks are the best in the moment. Then I can open up communication rather than shutting down, assuming the worst and getting really worried about everything in that way. So yeah, assuming positive intent is a bit of a growth area for me.

I also want to mention a funny validation story, which is that I was talking to Anna one day and she was giving examples of how she had validated someone else and I was like, oh, I just feel so much better, me in that moment. Just hearing the words of validation, you have so much going on. This has been so hard. Just those things where it really feels like someone is seeing and hearing you. It helps so much to bring people’s anxiety, energy, all of that down. So anyway, I thought it was really funny that you don’t even really have to be directly validated to just have that type of language just to feel so good.

PAM: Yeah, being in that energy really helps the ground. So many things are weaving together. I think we can get caught up in looking for perfection. I remember at my lower points, just watching to see what they would do. The whole reading your mind thing, right? Well, they should know me well enough and I can just count all the things that they did wrong, that they should know that I don’t like that. Just making that bit all about me, but not sharing the expectation that I said this once, three months ago when we were out at a party. Where would this random piece of information about me go in their brain to stay there that now it would pop right back up. Anyway, that was interesting. Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. 

But the really important piece I think of assuming positive intent is something you mentioned, Anna. In this moment, they’re doing their best in this moment because assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring what actually happened and just assuming that it was meant positively and perfectly and lovingly. No, it’s what’s happening in this moment and that’s giving us information. Maybe last week when a very similar moment happened they reacted or responded beautifully, or their choice in that moment felt perfect to me. And then why this week are they making a different choice that is knocking me for a loop that I’m not happy with, et cetera. That doesn’t mean assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring those people, those moments, right?

Having that expectation that once they’ve managed to do it the right way, that makes me feel good, so we don’t have a disagreement and from now on they’ll be able to do that thing. But because it is in the moment, it is so important to recognize maybe their capacity is down, maybe other things are bothering them.

That’s why we talk about context so much. So when they’re doing something differently than maybe before, that’s causing us to get our back up. It could just be something completely different. Right? So I found being able to assume that positive intent, even if their initial motivation in that moment wasn’t particularly positive, maybe they were trying to get a rise out of us or whatever, but  that is so much more about them and something else that’s going on. 

I don’t need to take the bait, so to speak. I can still assume positive intent, meaning that they’re doing the best they can in this moment. So the question becomes more, what is different about this moment? Is something up? Are you worried about something? That can be the direction that the conversation goes versus just the defensiveness. And why did you say that? Or why did you do that? Or, I don’t like peppers or whatever it is. Take the context. It’s not faking it or telling ourselves some erroneous story when we assume positive intent, even if maybe that’s not what they’re bringing because there’s a reason for whatever they’re bringing.

ANNA: I love that because, again, it’s not making it about us, it’s bringing that compassion to the moment. I think we can turn it around because sometimes that’s helpful for people. It’s helpful for me to go, okay, I’ve been dysregulated and I’ve said some pretty yucky things to people that I love and how different it is to be met with, Hey, are you okay? Or do you need something versus, don’t talk to me that way? Or, why are you being like this? Or you’re this terrible person?

We are trying to do the best we can and when we’re dysregulated and under-resourced, it can come out in a harsh way. And so, I just want to be able to offer compassion especially with this person that we love and are sharing our life with because it moves us through things faster. Like we get back to our connection point, which is where we both feel safer and more comfortable.

And so it just leads us there, which I love. And now if you’re talking about a pattern of this that goes on for longer then looking at the context of what’s happening, there’s something else. But so often these are kind of isolated events when we get upset. 

The next one I want to talk about is no set outcome. And we talk about this a lot when we’re talking about solving things with the whole family. Like when we’re talking about how we find solutions to things when we have people with these different needs. 

But I think it really comes into play here because if we’re going into this disagreement thinking, okay, this has to be the solution for us, or we have failed and they’re thinking this has to be the solution or it’s not okay. It’s very hard to get anywhere with that. And this is again, about getting to those underlying needs because we can have this disagreement about bedtime or whatever it is. If we get to the underlying needs, we can often find that wiggle room for solutions. 

Interestingly, I have found, even if both parties aren’t in agreement with this, it helps me not to come with an agenda, because even just that calms the energy a little bit. They don’t feel like they have to defend their position as harshly, like you said, Pam, like, how many ways can I say the same thing to defend my position, even if they’re not bought into this concept, but we are talking about someone you love. This is actually a conversation we can have. Hey, we’re going to figure this out. I want to hear everything you’re saying. And this is something we do with our kids too. This is feeling hard right now. I don’t know exactly how we’re going to get through it, but let’s just put all the options on the table because the big piece here is there’s no one right way.

So when we understand that we can, it’s easier to let go of that set outcome or this agenda that we’re moving towards. And when we put it in the context of unschooling, I think it can be interesting because, especially if we have one partner that’s like researching and diving in and listening to all the podcasts and doing all the things.

You get excited, right? You’re excited about all these pieces and you know how it’s going to work, and you know what the best unschooling way to be is. And you can imagine if you step back for a minute, how disorienting that can be to a partner that is not aware of all of these things that are happening and maybe is just getting little bits or pieces and it can actually feel super disconnecting because sometimes, people make dramatic changes as they’re going down this path.

And so the partner’s thinking, we were on the same page here and now suddenly something’s changed. And so when we can let go of that one right way to just to share that this is the piece that excites me. This is the piece that’s really connecting for me that I see with our kids, or that I see in our life.

Then you’re having a conversation versus a bulleted list of what we should do, and then they’re giving a bulleted list of what we should do. That’s the complete opposite. We’re losing that kind of interplay and the connection that probably brought you together however many years ago.

I think it’s just really important to watch for an agenda. Watch for thinking that there’s a set outcome of convincing, because as you said, Pam, we kind of tunnel in on how do we convince and we miss a lot of information about our partner, but also about the context of the situation and our individual lives. Because as you and I, all of us say so many times, there’s no one unschooling family.

There’s no list of unschooling rules. We did a whole podcast series that there’s not and so I think that piece can really help with these disagreements, especially if they’re around some of these parenting pieces or unschooling pieces, It can just stop that charged energy. Just really bring the energy back to, how do we solve this for our family?

Let’s figure out something that feels good to all of us.

ERIKA:  When you first come to new ideas though, that excitement is really hard to contain. It’s hard to not just want to convince everyone in the world, like, come on, I just found the answer. Let’s do it. It’s challenging and so to me, no set outcome requires a pause in my own mind and thinking. I need to remind myself there’s not just one way. It’s going to be okay, however it works out. And being open and curious, that’s it. But it is hard. I feel it being challenging in my mind because I will get really pumped up about an idea. I will want to convince, I will want to share how amazing it is. And if I don’t get a response that they immediately see it, it is amazing and let’s do it, Then it can be really hard to move through.

And so, it’s internal work and practices of calming myself to say there’s space for different ideas. There’s not one right way. Even if we disagree, we can move through this. That if he has different ideas than me, that doesn’t mean that my ideas are wrong, but it just means there’s more communication that needs to happen.

So, I really value the idea of no set outcomes, but find it challenging at times.

PAM: Yes. So very challenging. I think for me, part of the work when I’m moving to that,  just bubbled up while you were talking, Erika. When it’s that energy that we were feeling, this is so exciting, let’s do this.

I want to talk myself through this probably isn’t the only way to get that energy. What I want is that excitement and that energy and that direction, but like to keep that at the forefront versus the plan, the one plan I came up with to get there. To recognize that there are so many ways and plans and that’s the whole thing. Not holding out that agenda, that set outcome or to me it’s that set path. To get there. When I can be more open to the possibilities. Again, like you’re saying, it doesn’t mean giving in or giving up or, or any of those, common ways to describe it.

But what that does is help, and you talked about this earlier, Anna, is just peeling back those layers to find and meet them where they are. Where is our common ground? Let’s find that common ground first. And then from there we can each feel the next step.

And then, from that common ground, we can so often take baby steps. Steps that make sense to both of us. It’s like, okay, so I see that mountain over there and that’s the direction I want to go. But maybe we’ll like to take this little jog in the path for a little while and jog and jog if we can stay in that common ground and then the baby step, and then see what comes from the baby step.

Maybe then we’re each learning and experiencing pieces and then the next baby step makes sense and the next baby step and then you can look up and say, oh yeah, we’re getting there. We took three steps and we’re a step closer but they’re feeling the same way. 

Even if their mountain’s over here and yours is over here, we’re taking baby steps together and coming to a place and we’re both understanding each other a little bit better and a little bit better, because it doesn’t mean that we have to come up with the path and the answer to this maybe huge life changing, decision, choice, disagreement, whatever it is.

We can take baby steps and check in, and we may find that we were just using different words and internally we were a lot closer than we imagined. But especially when you’re stuck in that defensiveness, you feel like you have to go to the opposite because you need more power.

So I need to be so strong to get you to come my way. But maybe I really didn’t need to hold to that so tightly. This little bit. I can do that a little bit. Baby steps kind of became my mantra with my partner.

Okay, well what’s the next baby step that makes sense to both of us, and then see where we are.

ANNA: Oh, I love that. And I’m going to take your little metaphor a bit further. So you’re walking towards your mountain and they’re walking towards their mountain. I love the baby steps, but I think what happens is you make a new mountain in the middle that serves your unique family and then you really are walking towards the same place. It’s not exactly what you thought because maybe you were in this mindset of this is what unschooling looks like, or whatever the thing is, and this is what parenting looks like to them.

But we found something that fits for our unique children, for our unique relationship, and that’s really beautiful. That is just that process of slowing that down. It’s so worth it because this is our life. These are the people that we’re spending our lives with. That is ultimately going to be what defines our life is our relationships and how we are moving through all of these different pieces. 

So I really, really love that. I feel like these three things that we went over really give everybody a very big head start into how you could change that dynamic with a discussion that’s maybe feeling charged.

Or even if you’re feeling attacked at first about something, you can see, okay, I can breathe through this. We can figure this piece out and bring that different energy to it. And so, do we want to do like one through a quick example or what do you think?

ERIKA: Well, I had a couple parts of this that I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet and we could do an example of something that comes up.

Disagreements can feel huge, something like a major difference in parenting style or it could be something small like the dining room table has a craft project on it. It’s bothering the other person. Little things that can blow up or big things that can blow up.

One thing that I feel like might be the biggest shift to make is to switch from saying you always, or you did two, “I” messages and Anna, you remind everyone about this all the time, but “I” messages are so valuable in these relationships with our partners because as soon as someone says you left this stuff on the table. Why do you always do that? Immediately the other person’s defenses are up. Immediately. You can’t help it. If somebody says you something, it’s going to raise those defenses. And so saying, I am feeling so overwhelmed today, I really could use a clean dining room table to serve dinner helps so much. Your partner can hear that and it’s not going to cause that same defensiveness as, why do you always leave stuff on the table? These are little things, but they can cause days long arguments, just based on that kind of communication style.

PAM: Yes, that is huge. I love that. And that’s such a lovely thing to bring to the whole process, right? I love the distinction you made there between the little everyday things because those can build and build into big, explosive moments. And that’s kind of where we fall into patterns. Because we bumped into it today and we bump into it three days from now and we bump into it at the end of the week. It’s like, oh, you always do X, Y, Z. Right? And that explodes out. But as we talked about a lot with the narration and the I messages, then it’s something about us, and then they don’t immediately feel judged and the need to defend themselves.

They can be like, oh, okay, they’re feeling this. and I wonder where that’s coming from. They can do their own processing to recognize because I always go back to context, but the context for them may be that they had a project out and then some emergency came up and then they got really busy for a couple of days.

So, two or three of our experiences of that are part of the bigger context of something that’s going on for them. It’s not, I’m going to leave this on the table just to piss them off. Very rarely is the choice actually motivated by just to piss them off. 

ANNA: That’s our assuming positive intent, they’re not doing it to upset us.

PAM: See, it all comes together so critically. I love how these tools apply no matter the situation, whether it’s a typical one like screens, food, bedtime, and the whole kind of parenting paradigm shift that comes with moving to unschooling and embracing unschooling. To just the little everyday moments of the shoes at the front door and the stuff on the table and all the little pieces.

To be able to take these tools of validation and assuming positive intent in the moment and not having a set outcome. Maybe the outcome in that moment is, let’s have a picnic on the floor because I really need to finish this thing and I’ll be able to do it tomorrow.

But it would be amazing if we could just leave it here on the table for now. I’m not giving in when I choose, let’s like have a picnic. Let’s make the best of this moment. Because that can be fun too, so that we’re not doing it begrudgingly. We’re not doing it with this energy of, you owe me that.

We’re just embracing something different and it wasn’t what our choice was at the beginning, but as we learn more, because we’ve gone through the process of having that little discussion, we can come up with something that seems fun for everybody too.

ANNA: And I mean I’m all about intentional language and so I do think those “I” messages can help.

And again, this works even if you don’t have somebody that understands and uses those same tools because when they come at you with the “you are” message. Then we can recognize that it’s about their dysregulation. That’s where their head is at this moment. They’re feeling really upset about the table, or they’re feeling really defensive that we’re trying to take their project down thinking we’re in the right because we need a clean table.

You know? That’s where if we can use these tools to just assume positive intent, wow. What they said at us was really intense. That’s about them. How can we move forward with curiosity and with validation to maybe bring that energy down? 

Because then I think once you bring that energy down, then they’re able to say, I just haven’t had time to finish it. I have had so many things back to back. And then we get more context, then we get more understanding about why it’s there. But again, as soon as we go to defense mode it derails. Ideally we’re talking about this as a family, how to use “I” messages and how to own our pieces of what’s happening because of the things on the table or because of when dinner is or because of what bedtime looks like or any of those pieces.

And so, just think of any example in your head and walk through the same process, whether it’s a little or big, and you’ll see that it can change the energy and you’ll learn so much more about your partner and your kids and so much more about yourself because you’ll be articulating why something’s important to you and you’re having a conversation that looks a little bit different than just making assumptions about it.

PAM: Yeah. I gotta say, one thing that really bubbled up for me. There is that understanding of somebody else and their triggers that can help us nip disagreements in the bud before they even bubble up. Because we can understand the things that are triggers or stressful for them, and we can, when we’re using up the table and we know, we can already narrate that to put them at ease before it starts to bother them to the point where they’re going to need to explode into a disagreement of sorts or like bring that negative energy to it, because then they can see, right? Oh yeah, they’re doing it for this reason. It’s not to piss me off or they have a need for this, et cetera.

And we can do that “I” messaging narrating along the way beforehand too because as we learn more about each other, well this’ll be an important thing to mention to somebody ahead of time, maybe before they see it or as they’re seeing it or something like that. We can even just be sharing our lives together in ways that the “I” messages can help them feel seen and heard.

ERIKA: Right. I love that.

Okay, what about if you have a dysregulated partner and they just come into the room like, things need to change around here. We need to do more things as a family. Why are they always on their screens, et cetera.

What is the first step of validating that person to lower this energy?

ANNA: I think I would just start with, Oh my gosh. Tell me more. What’s happening? I can see that you’re just so upset about it. Has something specific happened? And maybe they’ll be like, no, it’s just everything.

It’s just been all week. All I’ve seen is this and blah, blah, blah. And just say, that sounds so hard. And I miss you, and tell me more. It’s been a really tough week. Maybe we can give some context too, because sometimes that can help. Like I know how hard you’ve been working this week.

I know that the lawnmower broke and then we had this water leak, and I know these things have been happening, and it has felt like we’ve been super disconnected as a family. We can validate that piece. Pull out that piece that they’re wanting the family to get together, they’re feeling disconnected because so often these kinds of things are coming from a feeling of being disconnected and so we can really validate. You’re just feeling really disconnected from us and I mean, gosh, we haven’t seen you all week, or whatever it is. 

But you’ll see just the slight change in energy because we’re not fighting them on it. We’re not saying, well, where have you been? Or what have you been doing? Whatever it is. So I think that’s where I start, tell me more. I want to understand. That sounds really hard.

I know we haven’t seen you much or we’re feeling disconnected, or I would love for us to do more things as a family. Because even that, so even we can say, I would love for us to do more things as a family, doesn’t mean we’re going to be turning off all the computers, or we’re going to never do whatever the things that are being stated. 

I would always love for us to do more things as a family, find that little piece that’s a yes, and then I think we can get to the solution of that later. We have to bring the energy down so that we can be creative in that moment.

PAM: And I find too, especially when they’re coming with the messages about the family, it’s so often about disconnection or they’re not feeling part of the family, they’re feeling disconnected in some way.

So, yes, validating that piece and something that I found to be really useful. What does the day look like? For you, what would a great day look like for you? Like a great moment. And that helps them feel seen and heard when you’re open to hearing, because we were talking about it. 

Getting to the root, peeling back the layers, finding the common ground. Because like you said, I love hanging out together and spending time together. And when I can ask questions with curiosity and love to let them explain how they’re seeing things. That’s a common ground.

And then one, the energy is clearer and we feel connected in that moment. Like you said, it doesn’t mean that we have to stop everything else that we’re doing. I just want to be able to hang out with, with child A, B, C, whatever, and, and do things together.

But then that’s when you can start to facilitate. Maybe it’s a board game, because then we can bring our experience as to the things that we already know they do enjoy together. Maybe there is a show or a movie that they enjoy, because when they start to express what connection looks like or feels like to them, then they have opened themselves up too.

Because so often the answer to that is not something specific like at eight o’clock, I want them to come out and ride a bike with me, and then when we get back, we’re going to go get our gloves and we’re going to throw a ball. It’s more like I just want to do stuff with them, right? I want them to enjoy the stuff that we do together. I don’t want to feel like they’re trying to get it done and get away from me. Like those pieces. So that’s where you can move to conversations about what do you guys like doing together? And they can realize the screens don’t become part of the conversation at that point. It’s about connecting, right?

Then it can come up there is this show that you guys love, or this YouTube channel or this video game. And then that helps them and you can help them find a way. But the thing is, what you can help them with is recognizing that they do want something that both people enjoy doing. It doesn’t have to look like just their vision. I wish I had a child that loved to go ride bikes with me. We can validate, I know you love doing that. You know you’re a happy person and then you find the things that you enjoy doing with this child and with this child.

If we were feeling a little disconnected, having a pizza night and Mario party where we all came together. It wasn’t about the video game, it was about the connection, about hanging around together. 

And the frustration doesn’t need to be part of the conversation per se. It’s not like, no screens forever. You get to the root for them. They want to connect. When we’re frustrated, the always and the nevers come up. The clues when you hear those kinds of words. Okay, let’s just not, we’re not even having that actual conversation right now. We’re validating, we’re peeling back, we’re getting down to what is the root of that always and never. And when they can feel seen and heard around that, then they can be more open to all the possibilities of meeting it and those always and nevers may well be beautiful maybes. 

ERIKA: Right. And getting to the needs underneath. It’s just this conversation journey to go on together. But I feel that first step is not making their feelings wrong, not making their emotions wrong. Because when people come into a conversation with that kind of energy, they’re expecting a fight. That’s kind of what they’re coming in for and so if we don’t fight back, if instead you say, It makes sense that you’re upset. It makes sense that you’re feeling disconnected. Your feelings are valid and let’s talk about what’s going on for you.

I think in many cases, people coming in with that energy would appreciate just being able to talk about how overwhelming things are for them in general at that time. Just tell me about what’s stressing you out, because I can tell that something’s going on. 

Just the power of that, of us not getting our defenses up and just being able to validate and say that it’s okay. It’s okay to be upset about things. It’s okay to feel disconnected. Figuring out those underlying needs and how to meet them all together with kids and connection. If you really can get to that, I’m just feeling disconnected, then that opens things up.There’s a million ways that we could figure out that problem.

And if you’re willing to do things with the kids that they like to do, you’re going to get that connection back. And so if we have the vision that they never want to do this thing I want to do with them. If I have that conversation and realize. What I really want is to feel connected. I really want to have fun with them.

Then maybe I could go, okay, it’s a little disappointing that they are not into this thing that I’m into, but what if I can try out what they’re interested in and then we can connect in a way that feels really good to them and you. Then you build that relationship and add up those good experiences together.

PAM: Yeah. I was helping them sort their priorities. Like, you love this thing. And you want to connect with your kids. Those can be two separate things. Like I said, you can go off and go mountain biking or whatever it is that you love to do and you can connect.

If connecting with your kids is the priority, find something that you both enjoy doing together. You don’t need to lump them together or kill two birds with one stone, whatever metaphor you want to use. They don’t have to go together so that you can efficiently do the thing you love and connect with your child. I mean, yes, there is some disappointment and we have this vision.

We wish we all love doing these things and we could all do this together. But yeah, that’s our personal journey and that’s what we can help them tease apart, when we get to how we meet our needs. 

ANNA: Okay a few things. So then that reminded me. I think the paradigm shift is instead of we’re a family doing all the things, we’re an outdoor family, we’re a musical family.

What if the culture of the family is, we are a family that supports each other in doing the things that we love, because that actually feels good. I think so often with adults that have maybe not been heard when they were younger. They kind of want to be, this is my time, we’re going to do the things I want to do.

But it’s like, oh my gosh, we can all do the things that we want to do and we can support each other and feel connected in that. So I think that’s kind of an interesting paradigm shift. But what I wanted to say before that was just a quick reminder. Because we talk about this with kids, it’s the big language piece.

So when they come at you with that big language, everything’s going to hell in a hand basket. This is the worst. They’re this. They’re never going to do anything. They’re never going to amount to anything. Oh my goodness, recognize that it is just big language for the emotions inside. And like you said, probably so much about the overwhelm they’re experiencing from something going on in their life.

Maybe there’s other things in all of our lives or in the family’s life that’s really feeling hard. Just like with the kids, just let that big language slide over and go, wow, this person is upset. And I want to understand. And when we can change that to just not focus on the words.

because that’s kind of what you were saying too, Pam, that reminded me, when we focus on the words, we actually aren’t getting at what the needs are necessarily because taking the iPads isn’t going to connect them. So if the need is connection, we’ve actually focused on the words and probably made it worse.

And so just letting the words slide over to really hear and validate and bring that energy down gets us to that underlying need. 

PAM: I love that. Right. So yes, it’s beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation, our longer conversation this week, and maybe even picked up a nugget or two for navigating disagreements with your partner and generally with anyone in your life that you love.

If you would like to dive deeper, we do have a course called Navigating Conflict, which is designed to help you gain a better understanding of how our personalities, our life experiences, and how we’re feeling in the moment can contribute significantly to the ways in which conflicts arise and unfold.

It includes six lessons, each of which includes exercises to help you more deeply process the topic and what it looks like for you, because all together now we are all different people. We encourage you to spend time with these exercises so that you can move beyond the intellectual understanding of these tools, the tools that we talked about, and get a feel for what they look like for you in practice.

To pick up our Navigating Conflict course, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on courses in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Erika. Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that help unschooling thrive.

We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I am joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. 

Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey, and you can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

Today we’re going to be talking about how to build trust with our kids. It’s such a critical part of the process. That foundation of trust helps us navigate all that life throws at us, keeping our connection at the forefront. So, I’m excited about this one. Erika, would you like to get us started?

ERIKA: I would. I really love this topic, because trust is something that comes up so often in the podcast conversations, in Network conversations. It’s a big part of what makes unschooling, in quotes, “work”. And it’s a big part of what we mean when we talk about strong relationships that we’re cultivating with our kids.

And trust is really a two part thing. It’s my kids trusting me. I want my kids to trust me, to know that I’ll follow through with what I say and that I will listen to them when they tell me about who they are. But it’s also me trusting my kids. I want to trust that they know what works best for them, that they are on their own path.

And so trust is going in both directions and for me it’s such an important focus to build trust and to avoid doing things that would undermine trust. I know we have a lot of different aspects of building trust that we will dive into. But what came to mind first to me was one of the tricky parts about it, which is that you can’t just say, “Trust me,” to your kids, and then they’ll trust you.

Trust is really something that builds over time and it takes patience and it’s more about our actions than it is about our words, which can be difficult. It takes more intention. And it’s something that comes as a feeling from within the other person, in this case, our kids, and we don’t have any control over whether they’re feeling that or not.

So, we can’t rush the process. It just takes the time that it takes. I think if there’s been a history of us pushing through their consent or a history of my child not feeling heard or seen by me, then trust could take even a longer time to build. I think that each step we’re taking, each intentional trust building step that we’re taking, along that path to being a more trustworthy parent, to being more trusting of them just adds, it’s building that relationship, building strength into the relationship. And that trust will just grow from there, one interaction to the next.

PAM: That was a huge one for me, understanding that trust is something that I build through my actions. I think that’s something that can trip us up, especially in the beginning when you realize, oh maybe my child doesn’t trust me.

They’re not doing X, Y, Z, or acting like they trust me. And that can feel like, oh no. Oh no. But the shift to, okay, I want to be a person that my child trusts, what does that look like? How can I actually do those things? I don’t literally need to go up to them and say, do you trust me? That would be a weird question to ask yet.

It’s one of those things where it’s through my actions and through their actions. That’s how we’re communicating about trust. Versus the actual meta conversations about it. The fascinating thing is the timetable, right? It’s not our timetable to control, even though that’s what we’re trying, we’re trying to build trust with them.

We want them to trust us. And we can even talk about why, when it comes to life, you want someone to trust you so that they will come to you when they need help. They won’t try to figure things out on their own. But same with learning, right? When you first come to unschooling, looking about learning that strong and trusting relationship is so valuable for learning too.

Because they’ll come, they’ll feel more comfortable coming to you with the questions. Instead of worrying that maybe this is a dumb question or worrying about being judged. Thinking that, my mom won’t like that. I’m interested in this thing, so I need to hide that. 

When you want a more engaged and open relationship, trust is an important part of it, and to take the timetable out of it entirely. And Anna, you say, be the parent that I want to be now and, and I want to be a parent who’s trusted by my child and my partner. So that’s how this person acts. You don’t wait till they trust you.

And once you trust me, then I’m going to be a trustworthy person. No, it goes the other way. I need to be that trustworthy person upfront and eventually, on their timetable, they will come to trust us as much as they will. And it’s so interesting to see, that’s your feedback from them.

If you see them hiding things more and you feel it’s more out of a worry about your reactions, then you can be a little more cognizant of your reactions. Try to take that little beat and instead of reacting more, give myself a couple choices in this moment rather than just react.

Maybe my instincts are something that I’m trying to move through a little bit.

ANNA: A couple things that came to mind from what you all said. There’s two things I’m hoping I’m going to remember, but one is. I think we can also be paralyzed by this piece of, it’s going to take time and what do we do?

Or there’s been a problem. And so I think it’s really important to let it sink in that this is not about being perfect. This is not about never making mistakes, that it really is about showing up for the repair. Because that builds trust too. When there’s a problem they know I’m going to come back. 

They know I’m going to come back and figure out, how do I repair it? And it really creates a climate where they can do the same, because there’s going to be times when they impact our trust in them, but then we know we can make the repair. And so as much as it’s about building trust, it’s about learning how to make a repair too.

And so I think that can lighten some of the panic about, how do I always be perfect with my words? How do I always follow through perfectly? How do I always do this? Let go of that and instead think, how do I just stay connected? You know? How do I make a repair? How do I recognize it? And I love what you just said too there, Pam, about that little barometer, like you’re going to get messages about not trusting, just like I’m sure you can think of other relationships that you’re in where you give messages to someone that you don’t trust them. We can think about how we are in relationships that maybe we feel trusted or maybe we don’t, and kind of recognize how that looks.

The other thing that came up from what you were saying, Pam, that I think is absolutely critical is letting go of judgment. I think our culture is very quick to judge things. It’s kind of a shortcut, right? Like, oh, that’s good, this is bad. That’s this, this is that. And so we make this snap judgment, and I think it’s so important to take that beat, like you said, to just be curious about what they’re bringing to us, because nothing’s happening in that exact moment when they’re bringing us something that maybe feels a little scary or feels like it’s not a good idea.

Let’s be curious. Let’s lean in, let go of that judgment because you’re so right, Pam. And that piece alone, I think does the most damage because they won’t come to us. They won’t come to us if they think, she isn’t going to like it or, I’m going to get judged about it, or they feel like, she’s not going to like me.

Because when we start judging what they’re doing, and maybe this is getting a little off track, but I think it’s related. When we judge, even if they’re watching YouTube or they’re doing something that maybe we don’t understand or like, when we are judging, really and truly kids are taking that in as you’re judging me, you don’t like me. Because I like this thing and you don’t like me.

And so. Really working. And I mean, it was work for me too, to just let go of that judgment and just really have that open and curious mindset. It makes such a difference when we’re doing this kind of cultivating and building trust.

ERIKA: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And here’s so many places where I think when kids are young Maybe we get into a routine of just making decisions for them. And so I think it can, over time, build a culture of, they don’t hear me. 

I think it is important, just as the child gets older and starts being more aware of having opinions about these things. Realizing, I’m different. I have my own interests, I have my own things I want to do. As your child is growing and as you’re trying to build trust with them, things like being honest with them about what’s really happening. Giving them the whole picture rather than trying to just convince them to go on an outing, really giving them the whole picture of this is what it’s going to be like, this is what’s going to be expected of you, and those kind of of things.

I feel like those are the things that really build trust. Where it’s like, okay, I trust that my parent is going to be honest with me and tell me what’s really going on. And I think for a lot of kids in mainstream parenting, that is not a priority.

Giving kids the truth, giving them the whole picture, that kind of thing. Allowing space for their experience to be true for them and not judging how they’re feeling about things. That builds trust. I can come to you and tell you that I don’t like this, and you’re not going to say, yes you do. You always have. Everyone likes this and just blow off their opinions about things. I think a little signal for me sometimes that I am not being trustworthy, is if my kids say, you didn’t tell me that was going to happen. Why didn’t you tell me that was coming up? Why didn’t you tell me we were doing that today?

Life gets busy. Sometimes I forget to communicate everything but that communication and really including our kids in what’s going on in their own lives. I feel like that is part of  trust building, helping them feel prepared for things, not blindsided by things.

Being there when you say that you’re going to be there, following through if you say, I can’t do it now, but I’ll do it later, and then following through on that. Those are little things that make a huge difference in building trust and making sure that they feel like they’re a priority in your life too.

And then when you’re trusting in them, that builds their trust in you too. So, I love how all of these actions and these intentional ways that we can relate to our kids, build on each other to create that stronger relationship.

PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love all those, the little list.

Because I think that was really helpful, for me anyway. Was thinking about what actions can help as I built trust. And that was a great list there. And one of the things, and I’m going to pull it out because I think you mentioned it, Erika, but it’s the being responsive piece of it.

To trust that we will help them in the moment, to be consistently available. This is not something that, okay, I’m going to drop everything and, and off we go. As they get older, they’re doing more things on their own.

They need our help less often, but when they need it being responsive in the moment is really helpful. But also as you mentioned, it doesn’t mean dropping everything. There’s context, there’s our lives going on around us. So even if I can help you in 10 minutes. But it’s showing up 10 minutes later, or learning not to say 10 minutes to say when I finish the thing, because I always underestimate how long it will take to do something.

So that’s part of knowing ourselves, right? As we’re talking with them and figuring things out. But that openness is so useful too, because then, even in that sentence, oh, I’m, I am right in the middle of doing this. As soon as I’m done, I think it’ll be 10 minutes.  I’ll come and check in and watch what you wanted to share, or we’ll go do this thing, whatever it is that they’re coming and wanting.

Because right in that moment, in that 15 seconds, they recognize that our delay is about the thing that we’re doing. It’s not about me trying to put off. Because I don’t like what they’re asking for.

And like you said, Anna, they will take that personally. If they don’t like this thing that I like, then they don’t like me, is so often the message that they’re absorbing from it. So, taking that 15, 20 seconds to just explain what’s up for us and then following through. Because like you both said, that’s where the trust is built, right? Trust doesn’t mean immediate reaction. Sometimes it does, but trust is like that.

They can trust that what we say, we will follow through on that we mean it, right? And that  builds trust. When they recognize, oh, this is about them, not about me. Then they don’t take that weight with them and ruminate for 10 minutes until we manage to show up. All those little pieces are so valuable.

But yeah, it’s not about us being perfect, you know? It’s not about us being immediately responsive. Trust is so much bigger than that, I feel. And when we can understand ourselves that little bit, as well as how they might see it, seeing the moment through their eyes. Like if they come running in super excited and I’m like, oh, 10 minutes, and they’re like, no, it’s happening right now, then yes, I’m going to make that choice.

For the most part, unless I’m in the middle of an emergency, I’m going to make that choice because now I’ve got a little bit more information that tells me the priority of it, right? And I can shift. It’s not me giving in. It’s not me making a mistake in any way. If it goes sideways, we can repair. That’s, like you said, where the trust is actually built.

ANNA: What you’re describing, that narration, I think is so important because when we’re able to just say a little bit more about the steps there, it also helps them have freedom to have more steps. And so it even can be a question like when that comes up, hey, will 10 minutes work?

I’m trying to finish this. Tell me what’s happening, get a little bit more information and have a little bit more of a conversation. And then, like you said, they’ll see. Oh, this is not about her not wanting to do this. It’s about something that she’s trying to finish. But I will say a piece of that too, like just part of my journey, it was really to pause, because I can get focused on what I’m doing in the moment.

It’s a little bit hard to pull myself out. Really, I did a lot of work to be available when they’re coming, especially teenagers. We’ve talked about this before, Pam. Like, when a teenager comes in front of you, I’m just like, drop it. If it’s not an emergency call or something, I’m just drop it and want to be present.

Because what I’ve seen with teenagers is they tend, if they don’t get the response, they just tend to go back off and you’ve missed the opportunity, you know? And so part of building trust is that piece of being available. It’s not about, like you said, I’m throwing away and not thinking about my life.

It really is about priorities and for me, in those moments, my priority was being there for that person in my life, and especially teens I feel like, but really all kids. I feel like teens are going through such a hard time. There are so many things going on with them and it can feel so hard at times.

And so, I think it just felt really reassuring to know I could show up for that and make that a priority. So, I think that piece is important, but that narration of just what’s happening in my head for them is that little bit of a step that lets them know, oh, this isn’t about me.

She’s doing something and then showing up, and then following through, and then sitting down and just really sinking into that moment with whatever they want to share, whether it’s upset or a funny game, or a cat meme or whatever the thing is. Because that’s that bid for connection too, right.

ERIKA: Just being able to be present for whatever they’re bringing, I feel like is a big part of trust with my kids. We’ve had moments in the past where maybe my son will say, I didn’t want to tell you about that because I know you don’t like that. Or I know you would have a reaction to it, and so I don’t want to talk about that.

And so for me, those are little things of like, okay, I need to control my reactions a little bit more, or I’m bringing too much of an emotional response when something comes up. And, so just being more intentional about giving space for whatever they’re going to bring.

It’s such a good feeling to be that person for them that they can come with anything. And so that is something that I focus on a lot and that feeling that they can tell me something privately, something important and sensitive and things they’re still just figuring out and that I can hold that.

And that just builds their trust in me. And the fact that I can it’s okay if they’re upset, it’s okay if they’re angry, it’s okay. I can hold all of those emotions. And so this is, as we always say, unschooling is our work to do this. Having them trust us is a lot our work to do.

Releasing and working through our triggers, grounding ourselves to the place where when they come with whatever they’re coming with, we can be there as this steady presence. I think what you’re talking about with the teen years, that’s just so huge for me with my kids right now who are 13 and 15, they really just need me to be able to be there when they need me, be there when they need to talk something out. Otherwise they’re just going to be thinking of it in their heads sitting in their rooms worrying about things. And so for our relationship, having them trust me with their most sensitive conversations is just so huge.

PAM: Exactly my experience too. And it just felt like the way you framed it as priorities, Anna, which came with kind of the shift in the timetable because when they’re younger, they’re like here all the time and you’re coming across them all the time. But then as teens, even if they’re not literally out and about with other things, they’re actively engaging on their own with other things so that when a time pops up in their day, week, or month where they’re coming to us. This is the opportunity, right? This is the time because there is less time when we can go and interrupt or just engage with them. So it’s less about our timetable and more about theirs. So that is how I easily made that the priority when they came because this is the opportunity right now.

This is when we can connect and engage and I can, for the most part, 95% of the time just rearrange that moment for myself.Whatever I’m into, I can, let that sit for a bit. To engage because my priority is that relationship and that connection. One other piece that I wanted to talk about a little bit was because this trust relationship I find so interesting and their trust in me, I found grew along or I was able to cultivate that better when I was also cultivating my trust in my kids. It’s a two way street. So it was for me, just quickly, one of the things that helped me cultivate my trust in them was just by getting to know them, right? Understanding their personality, their motivations, their goals, their interests.

I could understand them better and their choices. Once I understood them better, things didn’t feel like they were out of the blue so much. Right? This makes total sense for them. If I didn’t understand them, it would be like, oh my gosh that came right out of left field and I’d feel like I was being batted around.

Being open and approachable we were just talking about with teens, but really inviting our children to come to us whenever they want our help and making that a priority for ourselves. And because that’s how we get to know them better, right? That’s how we get to understand what their current motivations are, what their goals are, the things that they’re feeling challenged by or frustrated with.

And by giving them some space, like you talked about space a little bit earlier, Erika, just seeing their choices and how things play out as they explore and learn. If we jump in, even if we’re not telling them what to do, if we jump in with our suggestions, then those kind of end up being the suggestions on the plate.

But if we can give them that space. To come up with some suggestions on their own. Unless they’re literally coming to us and saying, Hey, I’m feeling stuck. What do you think? It’s not, oh no, you go figure that out on your own. But if we don’t jump in with things, we give them some more space and we see how they approach things. 

We see some ideas that they come up with. We see how those unfold for them, and we are learning more about them. They’re learning more about themselves too. The beautiful thing, as I deepened my trust in them, I could really see the consistency of their choices and what made so much sense for them. I could see things better through their eyes than me putting myself in that situation. And if I was a kid, if I was 12 years old at this moment, this is what it would feel like. It’s very different for them. They’ve had a whole different life. They’ve had support and love and all that kind of stuff.

But anyway, ultimately what I wanted to get to is what happens is that trust as they get older, as they’re making choices in the future, even if I didn’t understand them in that moment, I could trust them more. Because it’s like, oh, when I know more, or when I see how it will make sense to me because the last few years have not been nothing but out of the blue experiences.

But if I see that time after time, I’ve understood their perspective and where their choices are coming from. In that moment, I can react with so much more trust when I don’t yet understand it, because I know that it will make sense.

Sometimes maybe their trust doesn’t even make sense to them in the moment, but for us to show up, trusting and open and having conversations with them, that will become clear for them too. Like my instinct is drawing me to this thing. I’m not quite sure why I’m going to like it. I can support that. And help them explore it and figure out why it’s calling to them.

For that, my trust in them, it really reflects back their trust in me at the same time. Right. I really feel like it’s a spiral.

ANNA: I want to kind of combine the two things that the two of you said, which is, I really think it’s so important to get to know them because I think one of the common stumbling blocks you see is that. We really do put ourselves with our childhood and who we were in those situations into their situations. 

Whether it’s friends at the park, whether it’s some kind of an upset about something, whether it’s some kind of doing something, it is just always a recipe for disaster because they’ve had such a different life than we do, no matter what, even if you were unschooled, which is probably unlikely.

They’ve still had such a different life and so, that time that you’re talking about Pam, to just really get to know them and watch their choices and hear about them and not insert yourself or what your choice would be, and let that unfold is so critical because I think, again, we can bring this energy of, oh my gosh, if I were doing this or if this had happened to me, I would feel X or I would need this. And it really short circuits their process of understanding themselves and understanding the situation. And when I’ve talked to people about this, it really can calm them. They have different tools, they have a different experience, and then we can let that unfold.

What I love is that it’s fun to get to know them. Right? I mean, that’s kind of the fun part of this. Understanding we’re all so different. It really just helps kind of hammer that in. This thing that felt hard for me at 15, actually doesn’t feel hard to them and this thing that felt easy to me feels hard to them.

And so we can share that and talk about it and understand each other. I just think it’s a really beautiful part of it is getting to know who they are and that builds trust because they don’t think we’re trying to insert our way, because it makes no sense to them. Right? It makes no sense to them when we’re activated by something that isn’t activating them.

And so I think that this back and forth trust and that narration can help them understand, that’s about you and here’s what’s happening for me. So yeah, I loved that, that point.

ERIKA: Yeah. This is bringing up, there’s no one right way. Dropping the judgment.

It’s a long game. There’s plenty of time. Because I feel like sometimes in this parent position I can be like, oh no, they’re doing this. I better tell them that’s not good. I better try to make it so that it works out. But then that is just undermining their trust in themselves and undermining my trust in them.

And so, keeping in mind that everyone’s different. There’s not one right way to do things. This is a long game. There’s plenty of time for them to get where they’re going. It just slows everything down for me. I can listen to what they’re saying, look at what they’re doing without rushing to that judgment, giving myself time to get to know who they are.

I love that. Then our trust in them helps them have trust in themselves. It’s all growing trust, which is just amazing.

PAM: Yes. It’s a beautiful circle and I love all those little bits. Like those are why, those are little mantras that we often mention.

Even the group of them worked together so nicely to help bring down our own energy and something you said, let me see if I can remember, Erika, that we are trying to get things to work out perfectly for them. That was another big aha moment for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t try, if I recognize how I might be able to help set something up that will work, that I suspect might work better for them.

I do my best, but also to be able to, once I’ve done that, just release it to see how it unfolds and to not feel like things are going to go sideways. Things are going to go sideways. Like you were talking about Anna before with the repair piece.

There is nothing wrong. We haven’t failed when things go sideways. We will all learn little pieces. Maybe I’ll learn that. Gee, I tried and I set it up this way and oops, that actually knocked against what they were  trying to accomplish because I kind of thought it was something different.

I kind of thought it was six months ago, child, and now it’s today’s child who has grown and changed and maybe more internally than I had yet recognized, and this was my moment when I recognize that they have grown beyond that, or they have shifted in what they’re interested in or what they’re trying to get out of this activity.

So we can do our best in the moment, which includes our capacity and all those pieces. And then it unfolds the way it unfolds, and we learn from that and we put that in our toolbox, and that comes with us next time, right? But we can get so caught up in trying to make things that work out perfectly and then feel bad.

If they don’t like it, it’s our responsibility. No, it’s life and things are going to go sideways. And if, if things often go sideways, it’s like, okay, I really have a few things that I am just trying to do repeatedly that are not working. If it’s happening often that’s a pattern and a clue for me to revisit my foundations, et cetera.

But expecting the pendulums to swing the other way and for me to always be on and get it right is an unrealistic expectation too.

ANNA: Right? And I think so much about that when we’re looking at their life. It’s making it about us. Maybe we’re uncomfortable with what they’re going through.

Maybe they’re saying things that, again, are bringing us back to that moment, or we’re projecting it out into the future. But as soon as we start that we’re making it about us and that harms trust because they don’t need to be carrying our weight from our teenagehood. They don’t need to be carrying some bizarre weight we have about being the perfect parent. And if we didn’t, if we were the perfect parent, that nothing would go sideways. That’s so much about us. And so I love that you said it earlier, Erika. It’s just like, this is our work to do. This is our work to do. And in doing that, again, I think our kids really sense that and see it, and I think all the people in our life do when we’re able to just let people experience their life, be there as a support, but not judging, not making it about us, not inserting ourselves in that narrative. I really like thinking about it in that way.

PAM: Love that.

ANNA: Yep. Well, this was fun and I think it was a really important conversation so thank you both and thanks for listening, and we hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfully.ca/network  We’d love to see you there and look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about transitional ages and seasons.

While there is definitely not one path through childhood, there are common transitional ages where major changes typically occur. In this episode, we talk about some shifts that happen from the toddler to child years, big kid to preteens, teenage years, and moving into young adulthood. Brain development, body growth, and personality changes can sometimes leave us feeling like we’re meeting a whole new person! We talked about how our unschooling lives help support these transitional times, too, with unconditional love, curiosity, and strong relationships.

It was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

EU370: There’s Plenty of Time

EU360: What’s So Magical About Age 18?

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. And today, we’re diving into another unschooling stumbling block, which is transitional ages and seasons. And I’m really excited for this conversation.

But before we begin, I wanted to give a quick plug to the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life-changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics, since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. And I just love the community so much, because everyone there is really learning and growing and being so intentional with their families. And I think it can just be such a wonderful support, especially during this back-to-school season, when questions and fears sometimes come up.

And so, if you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community tab. We also have a link in the show notes. And we would love to meet you! So, Pam, would you like to get us started?

PAM: Sure. I absolutely would. And yeah, I am really looking forward to diving into these transitional ages and seasons. Because in our experience, we have really seen it play out in many, many different unschooling families over the years that there are patterns of these transitional seasons or ages as our children just move through these different stages of their lives. And these can be challenging times for our child and for us as things change. Because change is a constant, but also a challenge, because we’re figuring new things out. And I just want to mention, it’s less about actual ages. We’re not going to say, at this age or at this age, what your child should be doing. But it’s more about when the particular child experiences the shift. And that these shifts are part of life. So, that’s why we really wanted to dive into them. And we thought we’d start with the transition from toddler to child.

And now, thinking back, it’s been a while now, but with younger kids, a lot of our time and effort is taken up with hands-on care, from changing diapers to making food, to managing toys and games, and keeping them occupied. And their learning is quite transparent. We see them exploring their environment. We see them learning how to use their toys. We see them learning how to eat, learning how to talk, walk, like all those pieces.

So, as they start to get a little bit older, they typically need less hands-on care. And it becomes more about supporting them as they pursue their curiosity and their interests. And while it can still be busy for us, because we’re shifting from keeping them alive to being more engaged in the activities that they want to do day to day, it can be a bit of a challenge for us to notice that, to start giving them that space to make some more choices that they might be interested in. So, in the past, we’ve been able to help them and it’s just flowed. And now they might be more resistant. And we may start to recognize that they may think or want to do things differently than us.

It’s just really fascinating. And it can be tricky for us also, because they are still so much in the moment. They want to play this thing, they want to do this thing. They are right there. And we need to spend a lot of time learning about each other and just finding our rhythms, because it’s less about us when we bring the food out. Now they can be more actively saying, I’m hungry now. Just all those little pieces. Or, I’m not tired. Now that they’re more verbal, they have more ways to express their feelings and their thoughts and so, we learn to step back a little bit and work with them and learn more about them. And it’s a really fun time, but definitely can be a transition.

ANNA: Right. And I think, with the younger kids, with babies and toddlers, I mean, it’s such an intense time. Because we’re tired and we’re maybe not getting much sleep. And it is a lot about just keeping this little human alive. And there’s so much joy there and so much delight. And this transition happens and our days look a little bit different and we can start to recognize that pushback. So, I love the way you said that. Because I think especially for those of us who are doing a lot of the caretaking of the children, we’re just so connected to those babies and toddlers in many ways. And it’s such a dependent relationship. And then you start to see that independence and agency asserting itself and they do look at the world a little bit differently.

And then we start seeing that people are different. And honestly, I believe even babies and toddlers will assert themselves, but it does have a different feel to it. When getting a little bit older, and I think for those of us who we’re talking about in an unschooling environment, when it becomes that more typical school age or preschool age, we start to kind of go, wait. Should we be doing these things or should it look a different way?

I read John Holt really early on. He was influential in my journey with this. And I love just looking at that toddler and very young child and seeing how much they were learning and seeing how natural it was to learn a language and cultural expectations and understandings and all of these pieces and recognize that that’s just something as humans we can carry through. But I think it is important to watch in ourselves, are we bringing something to it?

Because it’s like, okay, now they would be meeting this milestone, or they should be doing this or this, looking externally versus looking at the child in front of you. So, I think there’s a lot of things that go on with this transition, both in our heads and for the actual child that’s growing and changing.

ERIKA: I definitely found that to be true. I have strong memories of my oldest turning 2, 3, 4, and just having these feelings of, I’m supposed to be doing something, that he needs to be really learning now.

Like, it’s time. And I mean, really that was just all because of the culture that I was surrounded by. When I started hearing that the friends are going to school or different things like that. And so, it was interesting to see that in myself and be like, on one hand I am seeing all the learning that he is doing, and our lives are great and fine. And then on the other hand, these fears are popping up of, but should he be doing this?

And so, I think that transition from toddlers to children for me felt like having kids on my body at all times to now being able to watch them. They’re not right on me, but I’m watching them do things. And I just remember having long days of sitting and watching them explore things and setting things out for them to explore and it’s a different phase of life. And you see all the changes that they’re going through in their brains and just in what they want to do and seeing their personalities come out and their voice, like you were saying, Pam. Now they’re able to really tell us about their feelings, tell us about their ideas.

And so, as that begins, it’s a big transition for us as parents, because we go from really just caretaking and responding to physical needs and things like that, to now it’s another person and it’s this relationship of like, what do they need and what do I need, what do they want to do, and what can I do? What do I have the capacity for? So, yeah, that was a big transition age for me, and I loved it.

ANNA: Yeah, all the different times and seasons are so fun and interesting and so much to learn for myself and for kids. And so, now we’ll move into the next phase which is a bit broad, but that older child to pre-teen, because so much is happening during that time as well.

And I found, and as Pam was talking about our experiences with probably thousands of families at this point, age eight and nine seemed to be a big transition age for kids in terms of, you went from that toddler to being engaged in the moment doing things and really just having fun and playing. And then there’s something about eight, nine where for some kids it’s the first hints that we’ll see other phases of this as they get older. But the first hint of, there’s this bigger world and am I safe? And what’s happening?

And I love the way you said it too, Erika, it’s like we’re tending to these physical needs and some emotional needs, too. But I think it starts getting more complex as we get to that eight to 10. It’s the beginning of that and then it amps up even more in terms of just how they relate to other people. They’re curious about that. They see other people. They’re not quite as focused in the moment in front of them as more understanding of social dynamics and other things that are happening. And so, this age is the start of that. And so, I think it’s interesting, because in so many ways it’s less hands on and then in other ways it actually gets more intense as they get older in terms of, the stakes seem a little bit higher or the conversations are a little bit more intense.

So, I’m interested about to talk about this stage, too, because this one also leads us into the start of hormones as well.

PAM: Yeah. I do remember that season as they do start to like, just notice there is more than like the family. And there’s this bigger world out there, and it is really interesting to put the focus on helping them as they figure it out. As we talk about so much, there is this way that our culture is, it’s almost like exposure therapy, as in, as they’re noticing these things, we want to help them get used to it. Because yes, you are going to be seeing people. Yes, you are going to be going out and doing these things. That is what life’s about. So, if you are struggling with that, let’s do that more so you get used to it. Versus helping them process and move through the transition at their speed.

We had times when somebody did not want to be going out. They wanted to be staying home. They felt much more comfortable there. And that outside world was looking a bit scary to be out and about, and even maybe fears of other people, people in their family being out and about. They’re starting to recognize, or they’ve had some experiences with people passing on or things like that, or accidents happening, that they’re becoming cognizant of some more of the risk as well, so it really was a time of change. And again, it differs per child.

But we have definitely seen that pattern where anxiety and stress comes with recognizing that bigger picture. So, to be able to quiet those outer voices and really focus on our child and help them through the experience and stages, to be there processing, too.

I remember that was a time when we were just pulling into our comfort zone. We were cocooning sometimes and really just making their space comfortable for them, because I didn’t want to put more anxiety and more stress on top of what they were already processing and trying to work through. The more I could get rid of all of that, then the more they could sit with what they were feeling about that new piece, the bigger world, bigger stuff happens out there, all those pieces. So, just to give them the space to sit with that without loading school on top of it, without loading all the stress of making them do these things. It was just so very helpful. And yes, a pretty darn common thing, I think.

ERIKA: Yeah. I feel like it comes up for some families as, I don’t know what’s going on with my kid. Something is different. Something has changed. They’re not having fun doing the same things they used to. There’s maybe an increased seriousness that can happen sometimes with kids in that age. But it makes sense. It’s just that increased awareness of everything, putting themselves into some kind of place in the world. And so, that’s big and it’s a lot of big thoughts that can come up.

And so, I feel like I want to mention now, though it applies to every stage, just the idea of meeting the child in front of you each day rather than coming to them with, I know who you are. Don’t write the story of who they are. Just see who you’re going to meet today. Because there are these transitional times where you don’t really know what to expect. And to give them this space to just be who they are each day is really amazing for them. That it’s okay. It’s okay that some days they wake up and they have a lot of fears and anxiety about things, or they wake up and they’re like, I don’t think I want to do the same game that I’ve been really having fun with. It doesn’t seem as fun to me right now, and I’m not sure what I want to do next.

Those kinds of feelings of, I’m not as interested in what I used to be interested in, can sometimes almost feel like a, “What’s wrong with me?” kind of moment for a child. And so, us being there with patience and understanding and validation of, this happens and it’s happened to me and it’s common and it’s normal and we have plenty of time, like we talked about in the last episode, to let new things bubble up. And as you grow, as we all grow and change, our interests will change. Our mind, our brains will change. We’ll get new ideas and new things, new feelings about our lives. And so, yeah, I found that time to be super interesting with my kids. But now we’re a little bit beyond that. So, are you ready for teenagers? Should I move on to teen?

ANNA: I think we can.

ERIKA: Okay, so, my youngest is now 13, my oldest is 15. So, this young teenager age, I feel like does seem to flow and make sense from that eight, nine, becoming aware of the bigger world. Then we come into this young teenager age. But there is something special about adolescence that is different than that preteen phase and a lot of new feelings come up. A lot of brain development happens. A ton of brain development happens. And so, it really can, in many cases, feel like, who is my child? Who is this person? It’s like meeting a new person. Not everyone is quite so dramatic, but for me, I do feel like there were huge things that were like, okay, I thought you were like that and now you’re like this. And so, I have been reading this book by Dr. Dan Siegel called Brainstorm, which is about the adolescent brain. And so, he says adolescence is from maybe 12 years old to 24. So, it’s really quite a long period of this really expanding brain, changing brain.

And a couple of the things that he mentions that are special about teenagers are this emotional spark. So that’s that moodiness that we talk about with the hormones and, just lots of strong emotions. Maybe we feel sometimes like we’re back in the toddler days of “tantrums” or feeling strong emotions, where they’re just overtaken with emotion. Social engagement becomes a lot more important to them. Novelty seeking and then creative exploration, which is what we see in teenagers.

And so, I don’t know. I really am loving this phase. I’ve heard a lot from other unschooling parents that the teenage years are just so, so much fun, because we are giving the kids space to really figure out who they are rather than trying to control and direct their path. And I think that that feels, so far to me, like the key to this phase.

ANNA: Yeah. The no expectations, because I actually loved having teens. I loved teens even before I had teens. So, I was kind of excited, because I just think teens are so amazing. They’re thinking all the time about all these different things and they have all these cool ideas and new perspectives. They haven’t been weighed down by time like the rest of us have. And so, it’s really fun to really get into that.

But I do want to say, I also probably did the most work on myself during that time, in that I had to separate myself in terms of recognizing that they’re on their own journey and I can’t control that journey.

When we have this baby that we can pop in the sling and go, we are their comfort because that’s all they want is to be close to us. And that’s it. It’s harder when there’s things we can’t comfort right away. We had some dark times during our teen years and that was okay, too, but it was a lot of work to go, this is okay, this is the human experience and I want to be here. And like you said, just meeting the person in front of me with unconditional love and acceptance along the way.

But there are a couple of broader things I just want to throw out. I have two girls. They’re old now. But I’ve seen a lot of girls in that age and that particular age can be really intense. And I think it can be for boys, too, but it seems to play out a little bit differently. And maybe it’s just personalities more than gender, but that kind of 12 to 15, 16 age can be intense, because they’re pulling away, they’re coming back, they’re pulling away, they’re mad, there’s all the hormones. Their bodies are changing dramatically. It’s a really intense and challenging time. And the moment I got caught up in myself about it was when we had trouble, like if I’m making it about me or I’m getting my feelings hurt or those kind of things. That’s where we would derail.

When I just recognize, this is really hard. What they’re experiencing and learning about themselves and about the world is really hard and if I could give space for that, it just made it so much easier. And again, easy is relative.

But what I also found is they do come out of the other side of it. Because I do feel like there were dramatic personality changes that I noticed during that time as they’re trying things on and figuring out who they are and getting a little bit more moody and dark, and then they come out of it and you’re like, oh, this is cool because it’s bits of the child that you knew and it’s bits of this younger teenager that you saw developing. And then it’s bits of this older person that will come. And it’s such a special experience. I think we get, as unschoolers and choosing to be together all of this time, to see that human development in that way and it’s just really special. And I think if we don’t get caught up in the expectations or trying to tunnel in, it can make a really big difference.

PAM: I loved your point of the different parts of it, the pulling away, the more out and about, and then the coming in, the out and in, knowing that there’s a safe space to come back to and recenter and reground.

But what was really interesting was, for me anyway, you can feel like, okay, they’re teens, they’re pretty self-sufficient now. They can get their own food, they can go to sleep and they can get dressed, all those pieces, and they’re going out and about more. And so you can kind of feel like, oh, okay, now I’m not needed so much and I can go out and do all the things. But what I learned was, and we’ve talked about this before, but I found I was actually needed just as much during this time, but it looked different because it wasn’t a day-to-day, ongoing need. It was more like not needed for a day, a week, a month, three months, and then needed every day for another period of time as they came back in and they were processing and they were figuring stuff out.

That’s why I think it’s so much about our work for ourselves at this time, because the questions aren’t, how do I do this? I want to go do this thing. Can you pick up this thing for me? So, it was less about interests and more about themselves and processing who they want to be and how they fit into the world, and how they engage with other people and the work to separate ourselves and to really be able to see it through their eyes and understand who they are and who they’re wanting to become, and not judging that.

As they’re trying on different, maybe different personality pieces, maybe just different lenses to see something and go, oh my gosh, I would never have that take on that situation, but they aren’t owning that. It’s not like, they’re looking at it this way, so therefore that’s the way they’re going to look at it forever. No, they are exploring, exploring. They’re learning. They’re trying things on, they’re figuring stuff out.

So, when we can separate feeling like we are being judged by them and we can just really see them for who they are and, like you’re saying, who is this person this morning? That’s okay, because they are just trying on so many things and putting things together. And as you were saying, as they come out the other side, they’re picking up what resonated. Like, I missed that part of me as a child. Because maybe they’re ignoring it for a while and they’re trying other pieces. But they might realize they miss that piece of and think, that’s something I want to bring with me as I move forward. And I found this new piece and I really like that. And right now I want to to mix that in.

So, yeah, you never know what mix you’re going to get each day, which was just so curious and fun. And it was just so interesting and fascinating to tag along and learn all the different things that they were pursuing, they were trying on. Also, absolutely not easy at times, but when it wasn’t easy, that felt like time for me to work on myself. It’s also not easy for them, so understanding that. Then I also not only work on myself, not bring me in it, but to be able to help them process and move through that, whether they’re internal processors or external processors.

For an internal processor, maybe it’s me giving them space, maybe it’s me just showing extra care during that time. And after they’ve processed it internally, being open and available for any conversation they want to have at that point. Or the external processor is talking about it again and again and over and over and over and over, so it’s so different for each child. It’s so different for a child at different points. It’s a beautiful, beautiful season. And I don’t like thinking about as hard, but it kept me on my toes. It kept me reminding myself who I wanted to be. It kept me just being open, being curious, being empathetic, and just seeing through another person’s eyes and that has never steered me wrong, child, teen, or adult.

ERIKA: I had something pop in my mind while I was thinking about that. I remember my mom recently talking about my teen years. All three of us, my brother, sister and I, are really close in age and so, she had a lot of the intensity of teenagehood all at once together. And she said that, at first, it was really shocking how much our emotions, our kind of emotional explosions had suddenly increased, and it just felt like it was all the time this heightened emotion. And so, at first, she was getting amped up with us, like we were angry, and so, then she’s trying to meet us there and she’d get angry and upset and we’d like have these fights, arguments, or whatever.

And then, she said, “But then I realized how quickly you would move through that emotional outburst and I would still be sitting here like, what just happened? And still feeling upset.” And she’s like, “So, I just stopped going on the emotional ride and I was just like, they’re okay.” And so, I think that’s like that not taking it personally, and letting them have their experience, but not getting worked up into it where it’s like I have to solve everything or I need to get myself all worked up and heightened. And so, being that calm presence, being there at the end of it, being there to support through it, those things are super important to me with my teens now.

ANNA: I like the rollercoaster analogy. It’s like we can be right there next watching and being there when they get off, but we don’t have to ride that, because honestly, I did do that at times and ended up feeling like I’d been run over by a truck. Then they’re off doing fine. And I’m like, wait a minute.

And so, then I had that recovery time, but it wasn’t my journey. It wasn’t mine to do. But I could still be there.

And that reminded me of something that came up as you all were talking is just the connection and supporting autonomy and agency we do when they’re younger really lends itself to this time, because that foundation is so helpful during the teen years. Because as they go off, they do come back and when something happens that doesn’t feel great or off or whatever, they know that there’s no judgment and that they can talk about it and that we’ll be there.

And I think that was such an important part for me, because I felt they were safer that way. Because some people worry about safety in this and I felt so good about our connection that I knew they would come back if they needed something and I was there with that unconditional, loving presence.

And so, that’s what I wanted to work on. I wanted to make sure I was doing the work for myself that I could show up in that way. And I thought it helped us through those times, because again, there’s a lot lability and the going off and coming back. It’s a really beautiful time though. And again, I learned so much about myself and I learned so much just about being in relationship with other humans.

PAM: I know. I think so. And I think it’s also just to point out, too, when we talk about it. Feeling good, et cetera, but it’s not about, oh, I’m feeling good and ultimately they’re gonna make choices that I’m comfortable with. No, and that’s what I think as you were, were talking there, Anna, I too felt like the relationship and the connection was the foundation that I needed and the nonjudgmental environment.

It doesn’t mean therefore I have to agree with every choice that they make. I can say, I would never make that choice. That choice like just fills me with discomfort. Yet, seeing through your eyes, I can see how they got there. Even if they wouldn’t make that choice again. It’s not about us being totally comfortable with every choice that they make or everything that they do, but knowing or feeling that they have a space that they can come back to, even when they’re like, holy crap, this did not go the way I was expecting.

Off they went towards something or this relationship that they thought would go one way and it went completely sideways. It’s not about them being totally happy with how things go and us being totally happy with how they’re moving through their days. But that foundation of the relationship, so that they know there’s a place they can come to, to process that, to talk about that, where they can get support and help and ideas for moving through for where they find themselves now.

I think that, foundationally, is what we found to be helpful so that they didn’t feel like, now, I’ve screwed up and I’m on my own. Which just means there’s a much greater chance that it’s just going to keep going more and more sideways. So, they find the spot where it’s like, oh, okay, I think I need some input. I think I would like some help, whatever. Whether it’s just conversation or like, come pick me up. Any of those moments that we have that relationship where they at least feel comfortable enough to do that.

Okay. So, are we ready? Oh, you want to add more?

ANNA: Okay. I think I’m going to do this here and I’m a little bit worried it may go sideways, but we’re going to try, because this is something I heard a really long time ago and there are parts of the language of it that I don’t love, but it actually was helpful to me. And that was, when we’re looking at the learning of unschooled children as they grow, I remember somebody saying, and this was 25 years ago probably, that in the beginning when they’re young and they’re toddlers and they’re young, they are ahead. You see them. They’re just learning machines. You see the learning. It’s so easy to see all the things that they’re learning and doing, and you just see like, wow. They’re not being pinned in by first grade that you have to do. They’re learning about bones and paleontology and all these things when they’re young.

And then there’s this middle age where they look more behind and basically it’s because there’s a lot of language at school, in terms of particular math functions or these kind of things that actually don’t apply to everyday life. They’re things that we aren’t even using now. And so, our kids, when they’re in that kind of middle age that we’re talking about now, this kind of preteen, early teen age, they’re just diving deep into their interests, which may or may not include the quadratic equation that the neighbors are talking about. And so, then it’s like, oh, okay, are they behind now?

And then this next phase that we’re about to go to, Pam, with this kind of older age. You see like, oh wow. What they know is how to learn, how to figure things out, how to be in the world, how to be in relationship, how to go and pursue the things that they’re interested in, because that’s what they’ve been fostering all along. And so, then they look ahead again, because then you’ve got these people that are struggling in college, because they were supposed to go there, but they don’t know what they want to do and they don’t really have a sense of who they are. And so, I don’t know. It was kind of helpful for me and I’ve seen it play out over the years.

And it’s part of what we talked about last time in the Plenty of Time episode. It’s a long game. And so, if you’re taking any slice along the way, whether it’s, oh, look how much they know, and how amazing, if you’re hanging on to those external pieces, you’re going to find yourself not in the best place. But if you look at it as a long game of like, what’s happening? Am I showing up for this person that’s showing up in front of me? Are we connected? Am I facilitating? Are we living our life? I just wanted to share it, because it was interesting and helpful to me at different times. So, I’m putting it out there and now we can go down to you.

ERIKA: Well, I was just going to say, it’s like a description of the outside messages that we’ll receive, The outside messages we’ll receive when they’re so little are like, oh my gosh, they’re so amazing. And then as they get bigger, but do they know the math? All these times tables or whatever. And then, the next one is like, wow, this young adult is so amazing. So, the outside messages that we receive at these different transition times are so strong and so particular and so cultural. And so, it’ll trigger those memories in us, of us at those different ages. And it just brings up so much. So, this is our internal work to do to put it all in perspective.

ANNA: It’s a long game to put it all in perspective. That’s what I wanted to get from it, because I think there’s value to understanding that those messages are rooted in something different and we’re looking at it in a very different way. This is a long game, this whole human experience.

PAM: Yes. And depending on when you start unschooling, you get all those early messages like, oh man, that’s amazing, and everything. And it can really throw you for a loop when it’s like, okay, now they’re talking about their science experiments and their more detailed math and all those pieces. The curriculum changes to what is apparently more advanced, et cetera. Our child is into whatever their interest is and maybe that interest looks schoolish, but maybe it doesn’t. So, it’s so helpful and fascinating for us to, again, do that personal work to see, are we using those external messages to validate ourselves and our choice to do this? Because that’ll eventually shoot you in the foot at some point one way or the other.

This last transition we are talking about is teen into young adult years. I loved your adolescence piece, Erika, up to the age of 24. I can totally see that. And I will put in the show notes a link to our podcast episode earlier about What’s So Magical About Age 18? because that is a whole other world of outside messages that come up during this transition.

Like, okay, but what about college? But what job are they getting? All those pieces that that can come up and it’s yet another stage of work for us to do. But also, back to supporting our kids. And the thing is now they’ve hit an age where they too hear all those messages.

So, there’s processing sometimes for them to do as well. But also, maybe they’ve found their thing, but also they’re still exploring. Again, it doesn’t need to be, oh, you’re 18 and now you need to look like this. It’s like, oh my gosh. You can keep being you because you are awesome and to be able to support them through that.

If you find yourself being buffeted around by outside messages, those are clues. It’s like, okay, I need to do some work and figure out why I’m being affected by all these outer messages and find that foundation. Because unschooling, from my blog posts to these hundreds of podcast episodes, it really is about being a human in the world. It really is. It eventually, quickly, becomes not really about school at all. School or not school isn’t really the fundamental question. So, just to help them and support them and engage with them as they make these transitions and it’s not really age-dependent. It really is to do with the person and what they want to explore next.

And the piece of personality is so interesting. We’ve got lots of years to look back on. And we can start to see the threads. When you were interested in that thing, I thought it was about that thing, but really it was just about this slice of that thing and now I can see how you grabbed these various slices and brought them together and now I can see how you’re wanting to move forward in this direction. It’s super interesting and fascinating. And also we’re not going to label you and say, now you are this for the rest of your life.

It is a really fun stage. But again, there’s just so much. There’s so much with moving out. There’s so much with college. Doors aren’t closed, either, as much because we don’t have that expectation that at 18 you do this and then you do this. It’s much more about them feeling it out and seeing what feels good for them, and I hesitate to say, feels good for them, because for people listening that might be like, oh, well they’re not going to do anything hard if they’re only going to do what feels good. But that’s not really what it is.

Because it can feel good to do really challenging things, because I want the thing on the other side. So, doing things that feel good doesn’t mean that they’re always easy, which I think people can equate with, especially in the young adult years. It’s easy maybe to make the culturally acceptable choices and there’s processing in making other kinds of choices. But man, sometimes those other choices just fit that person like a glove.

ERIKA: Yeah. I really do recommend that other episode for sure, because that was a really good in-depth conversation of this age period. But just what comes to mind for me is that learning is lifelong. There’s no finish line. I think I talked about on that one the idea of, how’s this child going to turn out when they’re an adult? That idea. It’s not about turning out, because we’re all still learning and growing and changing and so, I’m still turning out. I feel like that’s the thing to keep grounding in when we have the young adult children. It’s just like, you still have all the options. You still are allowed to grow and change and there’s no one right way.

ANNA: And that’s the piece for me, too. And I love that you mentioned the threads, Pam, because I even think about my own life and the different jobs and careers and interests that I’ve had over my 55 years. It’s like, oh, there are these interesting threads. And I think that can be really cool. But it didn’t always look traditional. It didn’t always look like what they sell you, that you’re going to go to college and get one job and you’ll have a job until you retire. This is not really how it works anymore, even for our generation, and much less so for the people behind us. And I think that is something that I really have enjoyed watching.

And when you were talking about it feels good, I mean, I will say there’s been times for both of my adult kids that hasn’t felt good. They’re trying to figure out like, I don’t know, this doesn’t feel good. What do I want to do? And that’s part of it, too, because I’ve been there as well. What do I want to do next? Does this make sense? Am I happy in in the choices that I’ve made? How do I want to do it?

And so, what I love and what I’m trying to just leave space for them to see is that yeah, that’s life. We have these opportunities and these times and we can figure things out. And if we don’t like it, we can switch and pivot.

In the work that I do now working with individuals and couples and families, I see so many older adults that are not so happy that really have gone along someone else’s path and it didn’t serve them. And so, I do think this time for our kids who are growing up into adulthood and figuring it out, it can be bumpy still. But there’s a connection piece that’s different and there’s just this understanding that there’s not one right way and that we can try different things and that that’s okay. There’s no judgment about that. And so, that piece I really love about what we can bring to everyone, because I think really everyone wants that unconditional love and acceptance.

And so, I love being able to offer that to these teens and young adults where it can feel so fraught. I have a client right now who is in college about to graduate and, oh my gosh. I just feel for her. She has a traditional mainstream upbringing, but it’s not even that. It’s just it’s such a big, weighty time. She’s putting so much weight on everything. And when I’m introducing to her the idea of, it’s okay for you to change your mind, like you could do that for a little while and then change your mind. She’s like, what? And so, I love just introducing that idea to all of us, that we don’t have to bring so much weight to everything.

I think my kids taught me that, too, when they were little, like, we don’t have to bring so much weight to all the decisions. We can learn and pivot no matter what happens.

ERIKA: I had one other thing pop into my mind, which is, for all these different transitional ages and these seasons that we go through, sometimes there could be something that feels really challenging, and so, we resist it or we want them to get through that phase, get through that season, or, “I just can’t wait till the next age, because this is so challenging.” You know what I mean? And we’ve talked about this on the Network so many times and probably on the podcast too, but just the idea that nothing lasts forever, but being okay with it lasting forever is often the key for it to be able to change.

So, the more we’re holding onto, I just hope they change, sometimes the less likely it is for them to move through that. And so, I think we can do that for ourselves as adults when our lives are challenging and we’re going through a hard time, but we can also do it when our kids are going through a hard time. Just coming to that acceptance of, even if this lasts forever, we’re going to make it through and sometimes, just that release can help bring a different mindset. You give yourself space to be more open and curious about what can happen.

ANNA: Yeah. We’re exactly where we need to be.

PAM: Exactly. And I love that you brought that up, because that has been my experience. When things would just get so like, oh my gosh, when is this going to be over? Not that I’m saying that to them, but I’m feeling it. When I can get to a place of, the world isn’t over even if it’s like this forever, then I can release the need for change and get back to that openness and see. All of a sudden, I see more possibilities with things being this way. And it might be magic, but that energy I have with them and my engagement with them obviously must be different somehow.

Even if I feel like I’m not really saying anything different, the energy that I’m bringing to it is, because so often, yes, that felt like it was the catalyst in them being able to release, too. We must have been energetically stuck with each other and now they could release anything they were feeling from me and just really feel into themselves and they would find like just a new baby step in a new direction. It’s fascinating to see an action, isn’t it?

All right, so I think we have covered this one enough. I want to thank everybody very much for joining us. I hope you found something interesting in this conversation. I really enjoyed talking about the different seasons alongside each other, because then we get to see the threads that are common to these different stages, even though they can look very, very different.

And please remember to check out the Living Joyfully Shop and the Living Joyfully Network, because I know Erika talked about how much she loved that, but I know Anna and I do, too. There are amazing families in there. And it is just like, our kids are long grown adults and we still find it just so fascinating to be engaging with parents who are intentional and who’ve had wide ranging different lives and experiences. So, it is a lovely place. And we definitely invite you to join us there and we wish everyone a lovely week. Talk to you soon. Bye bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about one of Anna’s favorite sayings, “There’s plenty of time.” This mindset shift is so helpful in many different circumstances, making it a very useful tool!

We talk about using it in busy moments, when thinking about learning and child development, and even in more urgent situations. This mindset shift to “there’s plenty of time” can help can help bring clarity and calm and shift us out of fear-based tunnel vision.

We had a lot of fun talking about it and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I am joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both!

ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello!

PAM: So, today we are going to dive into the mindset shift that has been invaluable to me over the years, and that’s that there’s plenty of time. It is something that I still regularly need to remind myself, particularly when challenging times arise. Because what it does is it helps me transition out of the tunnel vision that fear or challenge inspires in me. It’s like, oh my gosh, this thing happened. I’ve got to fix it. I’ve got to move as quick as possible. And it helps me get out of that mode and into more open and curious, so that I can lean more into the situation, into what’s actually going on, who’s involved. Because truly, even though so many things that go sideways feel like emergencies, they’re not. So, that is what we are going to be diving into.

But before we do that, we just want to invite you to check out the Living Joyfully online shop. There are courses, my books are there. There’s coaching options that are already all available. And this fall, we will be adding calendars as well as a new book, an audio book that I am putting together of all the talks that I’ve given over the years, and some audiobook editions of my existing books. I’ve got some more of those. Anyway, we are really enjoying creating a one-stop shop to support you as you navigate relationships with your loved ones and deep dive into your unschooling journey. And you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.

And now, Anna, since I learned about this mindset shift from you many, many years ago, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would! Yeah, it is funny, because so many people associate this with me. Actually, a friend from the Network made me this card. So, if you’re on YouTube you’ll see this. Maybe we can post it. But it’s this really nice little embroidery on a card that says Plenty of Time, because I say it so often. And it’s just because of me, because I really need to.

We live in a culture that has a really strong sense of urgency and brings sense of urgency to everything from academics to when you’re in the medical system to when you’re just in your day to day, and with growth and development or anything. There’s just this imposed sense of urgency. And I think my personality just really gets caught up in that. I’m kind of a go go gal anyway. And so, I just get going and I just have this urgency. And what I’ve found is that in some arenas, it serves me. I get a lot of things done. But in relationships, it was really causing problems, because I was rolling over people and not really getting to know them or understand or take the pause that I needed to to really understand a situation. I was making assumptions. I was looking at it through my eyes only.

And a lot of times, it felt like things were so off or were having a big conflict and years ago, I was like, what’s happening? Why is this? Why is this feeling hard? And then I recognized, then I brought this mantra in for myself. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. I don’t have to solve everything right now. There really isn’t a sense of urgency. It’s so often just manufactured. And as soon as I say that to myself, okay, there’s plenty of time, I just feel my energy come down. I just feel so much calmer and then I’m really able to use the other tools that we talk about so often, just listening and validating and leaving space and all of those pieces.

And so, it comes into play in so many ways. So, it’s going to be fun to talk about it and see what it means to the two of you, but that’s really what it is for me. It’s about shedding that sense of urgency that I’ve been handed and can get caught up in, but especially bringing it into relationships and problem solving. Because everybody feels so much more comfortable and seen and calm. And what I’ve found is that when I can bring that calm to a situation, it just changes it.

ERIKA: Absolutely. Yeah. I love the phrase. I love using it. And one thing I really love about it is it applies to everything. Because it really is just about calming myself. And so, it doesn’t matter if I’m doing future tripping, scary things about, this is going to be terrible in five years or whatever, or if it’s just in this moment, we have to get to the meeting or we have to go to the restaurant, or whatever it is. So, it’s all those little day-to-day moments. And also it applies to, why aren’t they reading fluently yet? You know what I mean? How are they going to be able to do their laundry and stuff?

So, anytime those fears get in mind, there’s plenty of time, feels like taking a deep breath. It feels like giving myself space to get out of that tunnel vision and get out of that fear vision that I can get into just because of stress of life.

And so, I was thinking that part of why we have this urgency, or maybe it’s a symptom, but in school, right? So, you do a class and then the bell rings and you’d have another class, and then the bell rings and you have another class. And so, we get trained into this, onto the next thing, onto the next thing. Like we should always be moving forward with this quickness. And so, the plenty of time idea to me feels so good and healthy and it’s like giving a gift to my kids to give them space to not say, okay, onto the next thing. Onto the next. Like, that’s enough of that, let’s move on. There’s plenty of time. They can spend as much time as they need on what they want to do. And we don’t have to be in a rush and fall into that sense of urgency.

PAM: I love that you brought that school lens to it, too, because as you were talking there, it reminded me not just from class to class to class, but how much of our lives in school are timed. Tests are timed. Everything that you do is pointing towards, I need to do this quickly. The quicker I can fill out my test, the more of it I’ve done and the higher mark I get. Doing things quickly is held up as the goal, right? So, it is a surprisingly big shift to release that need, that urgency, to dig into why it feels urgent. Is it because I just want to do it fast so that I look like I did it successfully?

And then for me, another piece, or another layer as I pulled back that urgency thing, it was, I discovered more often than not, it was because I was feeling uncomfortable in the situation. So, there was discomfort and it was more about trying to make myself comfortable again in whatever the situation was. I wanted to solve it fast so that I looked good, but also I was uncomfortable with this nebulousness or this unsolved piece of our lives. And so, getting more comfortable with discomfort, not seeing discomfort as a bad thing, but seeing it as just like part of the process it, I came to see it was where I could get to that curious thing.

Now, if I just sat there and did nothing and just tried to pretend that it would go away, my discomfort was just extended. And then we just got more and more uncomfortable, because we weren’t really talking about it, and we weren’t really making any movement forward. I was going to say progress, but then that brings in judgment to it. But it’s that idea.

But it was so valuable to me to be able to take that step back, to be able to say, you know what? I can sit with this discomfort for a while. I can get curious, I can learn more things. Like you were saying, Anna, we learn so much when we actually start looking at the people involved and observing their reactions, actually hearing what they’re sharing. Actually processing enough for myself so I can share what I’m feeling or thinking in a way that isn’t judgmental about what other people are feeling, but just another thread through the situation.

Because the other valuable piece of that is then other people don’t feel so defensive, like they have to dig in and defend whatever their perspective is or whatever direction they are thinking they’d like it to unfold. And we can just release a lot of that tension so that we can have just more conversations around it.

But if we don’t think there’s plenty of time to have those conversations, we’re like, okay, like this is the best solution. This is our fastest way. You’ll like this. Trust me. And we hold onto that so tightly. Even if we don’t force people to do it, our energy comes with, this is the best solution. And in our conversations, we’re picking out the pieces that align with that. Oh yes, you said this, see that fits with this that I’m wanting to do. And what we’re trying to do is navigate everybody else to come to the conclusion that our path was the best versus actually working with each other. But that takes time, doesn’t it?

ANNA: Right. And I think it’s so helpful to just unpack that idea that faster is better and even an efficiency lens. Because I live with someone who has an efficiency lens about certain things and it’s really interesting to see the rub of that. It’s like, where’s it coming from? What is that idea that the straight path is better, it’s faster? Where does that come from? Because I think in a lot of situations, outside of ourselves, it’s serving someone else. In school, it’s serving just that we’ve got to keep moving and we’ve got to keep getting 30 kids turned out of this and getting them through the test.

And I was always that super fast test taker. I’m a super fast eater. I just really bought all into this fast is better and efficiency lens. And again, I think there are times when it serves me, but I really do think I missed a lot in those days. I think I didn’t retain that material, because I really was just quickly going through the test to spit it back out.

And what I loved about watching my kids when they were younger and as they grew up was just, it was a richer experience where they really took time with things and made mistakes. We talk about this where it’s like, “made mistakes” is kind of a school concept again, but for them, it was just like, ooh, try this and pivot here and do this.

And when you just really embody this sense that there’s plenty of time, there is no wrong way. And with each turn and with each choice that you make, you’re learning something about yourself, about the people that you’re with, even about the particular subject, do I like this? Do I not like this? Do I want to do it a different way? And I just feel like I short-circuited a lot of that learning for myself when I was younger. I feel like my kids gave me that back to just recognize, like, yeah, I just want to slow it down so that I can connect with the people so that I can learn more about myself.

I feel like that’s another piece of this is when we’re on that fast track, it can distract us a little bit from looking at ourselves and understanding our own pieces. And I’ve definitely been guilty of that. And so, I feel like as I’ve gotten older, and then as my kids kind of taught me this lesson, it was like, oh, okay. It goes back to what you’re saying, Pam, sitting with discomfort, because sometimes when we’re learning things about ourselves, it’s a little uncomfortable. But learning that, hey, I can sit with this and learn more about myself. And maybe it’s because I’m getting older, but it’s like, now I feel like that’s why we’re here. That’s what this human journey is all about. And so, I love this little quick reminder. Because, like you said, Erika, it’s like taking a deep breath and whew, here we are.

ERIKA: Yeah. As you both were talking, I was thinking about life with little kids. I feel like this is where this first came to mind was life with little kids. Because imagine when you go for a walk with a little kid, you take one step out the door and they are looking at something and it just feels like it’s going to take forever, and why are we stopped here? That kind of thing. And so, I feel like, a lot of us have had that experience of like, oh my gosh, my toddler just wants to do this same thing for hours and hours, and how can we get through it?

And so, I think that was the beginning of, deep breath. There’s no rush. We don’t have to move on to the next thing. But once you can get in that head space of, there’s plenty of time and let’s just see how things unfold, I don’t need to direct, I don’t need to point out the right way to do something or the thing that I think is important or whatever, and just kind of letting things unfold for our kids. They can learn so much more. They can learn more about themselves, they can learn more about the things that they’re interested in.

And so, I think that sense of urgency or that checklist that we might have in our mind of the next thing. Well, they learned how to do this, so then the next thing is this, having that mental checklist and that sense of urgency really gets in the way of them creating their own learning journey.

And I think the same thing applies to us. And we had many years of really not knowing that there’s plenty of time and not having the space to learn about ourselves. And so, that deep breath and that time and settling our brains down to be like, it doesn’t have to be the next thing. Just focusing on what’s in this moment and relaxing into this moment, it’s just so powerful.

PAM: It’s so powerful. And I just love how you can take this little nugget and apply it everywhere. We talked about relationships. We’ve talked about challenges, talked about learning. It’s just so vastly valuable in all of those spaces to be able to peel back that layer. For me, that’s part of the transition to like lifelong learning from school, curriculum-based learning. There’s plenty of time for that thing to bubble up and there’s plenty of time for them to stay stuck with this one thing that they’re really focused on right now.

It just applies everywhere and it’s a valuable little thing just to bring to our days and really explore just that push that we feel. Because we can feel it in so many ways. And as I just think back over my days, it’s just like, okay, this and then this and then this. But truly there is so little that is an emergency. We can take the time to actually engage with it, to sit with it for a little bit. And as you both said, we just learn so much when we do that. I learned so much from watching my kids and I really had to go back to that beginning place and not just figure it out myself, because when I looked to them, I could see it in action. I could see them taking the time and I’m like, oh. Why aren’t they wanting to do this and this?

Sometimes I tried offering things, but I was also cognizant enough to, when I got some pushback or just like completely ignored, not to have expectations around things, especially when we bring them to our kids. Because they may be in a place where even though that could be really cool and interesting to them, right now they’re still here. There’s plenty of time for them to notice that thing.

So, for me, it’s just like, I can plant a seed and then maybe the next day or the next month or two years down the road, it’s like, hey, remember when you mentioned this thing? I’d like to hear more about that.

So, there’s plenty of time just works in just about any situation. You can use it just about every day in our society.

ANNA: It does! And I know sometimes, people will ask, what do I do? I’m frustrated or I’m not showing up in the way I want to. Or, we’re having these conflicts. And they just want to know, what’s going on? What are some options? And I think this piece is really a great place to start. Because I think anytime we’re under time pressure, and I think it’s probably worse for some personalities, mine being one of them, but time pressure builds this feeling like, I want to do a good job, I want to get there on time. All these other outside messages that I’ve had.

What I found is, again, I wasn’t showing up as the person I wanted to when I was bringing that sense of urgency under that time pressure. And so, I think it’s a great place to start to just go, okay, so we’re having an interaction, like you were saying, Erika, we’re trying to get out the door or something, and I feel myself like getting a little energy about it, and what if I just change it?

And that’s the kind of situation I would use it, in like, you know what? There’s actually plenty of time. And my energy would come down. The kids’ energy would come down. David’s energy would come down. And we’d get out the door. And so, I think it’s just when you find yourself feeling that feeling, especially if there’s a tightness to it, just see how it feels to breathe into, there’s actually plenty of time.

Because, like you said, Pam, the amount of times that it’s an actual emergency, you’re not even going to be thinking. You’re going to act. You’re going to pull that kid out of the road. You’re going to do the thing that you need to do. You’re going to take care of the wound. Whatever the thing is happening, that’s an actual emergency. There won’t be time to be getting irritated with people or thinking about what’s happening in your head. So, that’s the clue to me that, wait a minute, this is about me. And what happens if I bring that different energy?

ERIKA: I was thinking about the emergencies, too, and honestly it helps then, too. If you feel like you’re freaking out and there are too many things. It’s like, there’s plenty of time. It’s my reminder, too, it’s just one step at a time. So, I know I have these moments, not emergencies, but say I’m hungry and then they’re also hungry. And then also the phone rings. And the dog needs to go out. All these things could pile up in a split second where it felt like everything was fine and now everything is busy. And so, if in that moment when I start to feel myself getting overwhelmed, I could just be like, there’s plenty of time, one thing at a time, one step at a time, it just helps in every situation.

PAM: Yeah, it’s true. It really does. And I think it’s just such a great reminder that we have agency, because so often when things like that are piling up on us, we feel like all we can do is react. But I think the shift that there’s plenty of time helps me. It helps me ground. It helps me center. It helps me process a little bit so that I feel more like I’m responding. Because like you’re both saying, when we react, we bring so much negative energy to the situation. And then people start reacting to us, and then it’s just like this ping pong ball of stress that goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth till we’re all completely frustrated.

And somebody says, well then we’re not going. And too bad. But, oh my gosh, when I could remember to bring that energy of, there’s plenty of time, so that everybody’s energy is down, we would actually get out faster than if I was trying to prod everybody, like literally time-wise faster and feeling so much better, when I wasn’t constantly prodding people and prodding people and instead I was supporting, asking, do you need some help with this? Just not getting in people’s way, not constantly poking them. I think when I’m feeling an urgency, I’m poking people and then they’re just like, screw that. Or they’re poking back.

ANNA: Putting up a wall.

PAM: Exactly. The wall goes up and then we move slower.

ANNA: Right. I’m going to repeat something you said, Erika, just because I think it’s so important. I love this. We’re talking about how to use it in these moments, but it’s both, right? It’s using it in those intense moments, but it is also that there’s plenty of time to learn the things that they need to learn. There’s plenty of time for relationships and friendships to develop and grow later on. Because we can get stuck in our heads about, but do they have enough friends or are they doing enough this or this or that?

And so, that was another time I found it so valuable was just like, but actually this is a long game. If we’re lucky enough, we have a long life to figure all of these pieces out. And if it’s a short life, then even more I want to be just doing what we love and enjoying each other. So, it really helped calm me from both sides. And so, I love again that it’s useful in these moments and it’s also useful when we get in a spiral that’s a little more, out there, future worry, esoteric.

PAM: Yes. Me too. Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation and even picked up a nugget or two for your unschooling journey and, let’s face it, life and living, because this is just something fundamental, I think, to human beings, or at least to those of us who grew up in that more conventional school-based environment where the pressure came to do things fast and do things right, don’t make mistakes. All that stuff really plays into that fear and that urgency we feel. So, just reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time and playing with that throughout the day in all sorts of situations can really help us see some really fun layers where we can apply it and it can be useful.
And remember to check out The Living Joyfully Shop at, not surprisingly livingjoyfullyshop.com. And we wish everyone a lovely week. Thanks so much! Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about how people are different.

“People are different” has become a common refrain on the Exploring Unschooling Podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network and for good reason! Once we sink into the reality that people are truly so different—their priorities, their brains, their interests, the way they express themselves, their likes and dislikes, their bodies, their personalities, and so on—it becomes so much easier to assume positive intent and to meet people where they are. We can more easily see through their eyes and understand that there’s no one right way.

We’ve been really excited to dive more deeply into this idea. It was a very fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both.

PAM AND ERIKA: Hello!

ANNA: Before we get started, I want to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network, including our new course Four Pillars of Unschooling, where we explore four foundational ideas and paradigm shifts that can help you along your journey. Especially if it’s new and really if not, but especially if it’s new, I think it’s a good framework to start to understand, oh, okay, these are some important paradigm shifts.

The shop has resources and support for really every stage of your journey and different levels, whether you want some personalized attention with coaching, or if you want to work through some courses, or again, join the Network, which gives you a community of people living all over the world. It’s so fun to see their lives and what’s happening with their families. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

So, today I’m very excited. We’re going to be talking about the idea that people are different. And while it sounds simple, it is so layered and not understanding it can definitely be a stumbling block in our relationships. And once you really embrace it, I feel like it becomes so fun just noticing all the ways and finding ways to apply this lens.

So, we’re going to have a lot of fun talking about that today. I think it takes some of the mystery and frustration out of other people’s behavior when we recognize, oh, this is a people are different thing. We tend to think everyone sees and experiences the world in the same way, and so when they don’t, it can actually cause some friction. So, I’m very excited to dive into this very broad topic with both of you. Erika, do you want to get us started?

ERIKA: I would love to. This might be one of my most favorite topics to talk about these days, and I’m just really excited to see what we are able to touch on today, while also knowing that there will be so much more that we won’t even get to, because it is such a big, rich topic to explore once we start thinking about it.
And so, I really think that we started putting that “people are different” lens into words in the past few years because of some deep dives that we have all done individually and together, probably partly inspired by the deep conversations we have on the Network around personalities and learning about the different people there.

And I think we can, on a surface level, say, “People are different,” and everyone would agree like, “Well, yeah, of course.” But the deeper stuff, like, “No, people are really different,” can take a while to wrap our heads around.

And so, for example, the way our brains work is different and our personalities and temperaments are different. Of course, everyone has different past experiences and maybe past trauma that impacts what they do today, and so that contributes to our differences. Our go-to defense mechanisms and our reactions to things and all the beliefs we have about the world can just be so, so different.

That’s not even to mention fun things like our interests and what lights us up, and our bodies and what makes our bodies feel good, our curiosity and what our curiosity leads us to. So, if you just start to think about putting all these different aspects of ourselves together into one complex human, it’s no wonder that so many times we could feel like it’s so hard to communicate or it’s hard to understand why other people are making such different decisions from what we would do, but it’s just because we’re all so different.

PAM: We’re all so different. And for me, I just love to keep coming back to this idea, like you were saying, there’s just so many layers to it. Introvert, extrovert, just to grab something that’s pretty common for people to consider. “Oh yeah. They don’t like going out as much.” Or, “They like to be around people all the time.” When you just use that lens on its own, when you bring it to any moment, it can help you understand people a little bit more. It can help you understand that they don’t want to hang out in big crowds for long times, but also, when they’re at home with a small number of people, it’s so energizing. To see that lens in each moment helps you understand their reactions.

People are different. Even with an introversion, there are so many differences and layers. What helps them? What kinds of situations are worth it? All those pieces. So, when you just start digging into that a little bit, you find so many nuances.

When we first came to unschooling and I first started thinking about this stuff, when my kids made different choices than me, it would not make sense. Like, “But, A, B, C, like of course D!” Until I actually started to look at them as a human being, as a whole human being, understanding that they are truly different from me and understanding that me reaching D as a conclusion and them reaching E as a conclusion are both absolutely fundamentally true. D would work better for me and E would work better for them. So, now how can we work together and find an F that has enough of D and enough of E that we’re all pretty happy with this plan? And off we go down the F path.

And then, like you were talking, layer after layer after layer. There is just so much that makes up a human being that can be different from us, and it just helped me not be frustrated, not feeling like, oh, I need to explain this again, because they must not be getting it, because it makes utter and complete sense to me.

ANNA: Right. I think that’s what I love about it. And we get at it at different ways, but I feel like this is a really quick thing that comes to mind that pulls me to a place of curiosity, because if I find myself feeling frustrated or like, why are they making that choice? Or if I start taking something personally about the way somebody’s doing something, I can quickly go, wait a minute! Is this a “people are different” thing? And I can just pause a second and give a little bit of space to bring curiosity to it.

Because I think we really do so quickly go to thinking that everybody sees the world the same way that we do, and that, “Of course that would be the solution!” And so, yes, over the years we’ve kind of dabbled around these things. “Oh, well, but I’m an introvert and I have this friend that’s an extrovert and she does things differently than I do,” but it’s so much deeper than that. And I love that you touched on it, Erika, too, that we all bring our past traumas, our past history, our past learning. So, it doesn’t even have to be trauma, but a lot of us have some trauma that we’re bringing into the moment. But it’s just our experiences. What was our family like? Where did we grow up culturally? What did we learn?

And it’s so interesting when you start having these conversations with people, because it could be things that you wouldn’t even think would be at odds. I was talking to a Network member friend about this, and she really loves walkable cities. And she just said it to me, “But if everybody could live in a walkable city, they would see how amazing it is!” And I’m like, no. I’m like, “If everybody could live in the woods, they would see how amazing it is!” And so, we just laughed about it, because we both are so passionate about the things we’ve learned about ourselves.

And I think it ties in with our unschooling journey so well because that’s the environment we want to create, where our kids can learn these things about themselves, have this self-awareness that it took a lot of us a long time to figure out. Because I pushed through a lot of things about myself, because it didn’t maybe fit the mold. And so, then it takes time to realize what’s true for us. And so, I love that environment where we can learn what we like and don’t like, what works for us and doesn’t work for us. How we process something, what we need to be able to process something. Do we need quiet? Do we need noise? Do we need headphones? Pam wears headphones and thinks about things. That’s amazing to me. I cannot have multiple inputs like that as I’m trying to form a thought. I love music and headphones, but not for when I’m thinking or working.

So, you can go, “Oh, my kids are listening to music, but I see them doing something.” And for me, before this understanding, I might’ve gone, “They’re not doing anything productive. There’s no way they could be because they’ve got headphones on.” And then I meet Pam and she’s like, “I need to have music going, or other things happening.” And it’s like, oh my gosh, how cool. And so, in that little example that I gave, what I want to watch there is my judgment about it. I want to watch my judgment about someone else, because if I bring curiosity, then I can learn more. “Tell me about that. Do you love listening to the music when you’re doing it? What are you listening to? What feels the best?” And then we connect.

ERIKA: I love it so much. And I think we could come up with a million little tiny examples like that. I’m just thinking with the noise and having some sounds going on. Maya says that same thing. She’s like, “It’s too quiet in here. I just need some sounds going on.” And for me, it’s the opposite. But it’s the same thing in so many different areas. And so, one way to approach that with curiosity is to do that paradigm shift of “there’s no one right way.” Because we can get stuck there, like, “I figured out the right way.”

Here’s another, more hormonal example. At night, it’s cold. That’s my experience. In the morning, it is hot. That’s also my experience. Now, Josh, he has a completely opposite experience at night. He is dying of heat, but I could try to convince him that doesn’t make sense. It’s cold at night and it gets hot in the morning. And he’d be like, no, that makes no sense. And so, realizing that’s my experience, what I’ve learned from my own life is there is not the one right way.

It helps our relationships so much, because it helps us to assume positive intent about another person. It helps us to put our picture of them into greater clarity if we can be open and curious about what they’re telling us about their own experience, rather than going straight to shutting it down by saying, “But I have already figured it out and I already know what’s right.”

And so, anything from tiny things like, we’re going outside and they’re saying they’re not hot and I’m saying I am. I mean this temperature difference, it’s seems like a small thing, but it can cause fights in families. Because yeah, we think that our experience should be everyone’s experience, but you could see that could ripple out to what people should eat, the way that they should have their room organized, how they should be spending their time, what time they should wake up, what time they should eat, just every little thing. It’s like, what if we could just be curious about, how does it feel to you? What is your experience in this area?

PAM: Yes. I love that, because, for me, the hot/cold is a great example, because that almost feels like a fact. Somebody comes back to us, “I’m cold, people! How can you not be cold? There’s something wrong with you.” And I think that one of the shifts that helped me was, like you were saying, assuming positive intent. They’re not trying to judge me just because their answer’s different. It doesn’t make me wrong. I don’t have to defend myself. I don’t have to get defensive about it. I can be curious about it. It’s like, wow. This room feels so different to each of us. And that is something that we laugh a lot about here, because I run very hot and use no blankets, no nothing at night. And Rocco was all tucked in.

But the one I wanted to bring up, too, because examples are just so fun, this was one that was a really useful shift for me when I recognized it, and that was the internal processor and external processor. And that started even before I had kids. Coming to recognize, oh my gosh, how different is that? Somebody wants to talk through it and they’re not telling me what their answer is. They’re just telling me a whole bunch of ideas. It’s like, oh, I don’t need to go prep for that. Because for me, as an internal processor, for the vast majority of things, I’ll think about things, put on my headphones, have a good walk, have a good think. “Yeah, this makes sense, this makes sense, this makes sense.” So, by the time I mention it to somebody else, it’s like, let’s do this.

Whereas for other people, more external processors, they want to hear it. They want to maybe get some reaction. They want to talk about it with somebody else. Talk about the five different possibilities to eventually kind of land on the one. So, when they come out with something, I have to remember, it behooves me to save myself from future disappointment or frustration because I went off and did X, Y, Z to get everything ready for the thing. And they’re like, oh yeah, that was yesterday.

ANNA: What was that? Yeah. Right. I work with a lot of couples. And oddly enough, many internal processors marry or partner up with external processors. And this is a very new idea to a lot of people. They’re always so fascinated when I start to talk about it with them. But the key to this working is not taking it personally.

So, what can happen is the internal processor goes off to think about the idea that was presented and then the other person, whether this is a child or a partner that goes off, is thinking, “They don’t care about me. They don’t understand. They don’t think this is important. They’re not thinking about this.” Because to them, thinking about an idea and processing it and prioritizing, means talking about it. It means talking about all the iterations, all the different things.

For that internal processor when they’re being bombarded by that, they can feel like, you’re not giving me any time. Why are all these ideas coming out? You’re all over the board. And then they’re taking that personally. But as soon as we understand this about each other, and again, this is for kids and partners, it’s like, oh, okay. I need to give them a little bit of space. I presented them with this idea of, what we want to do this weekend? Or, what’s coming up? Or, do we want to try this as a family? Let’s give them some ideas. Because then they’ll come back. Then they’ll come back and want to have a conversation, but they need that time.

And when I talk to companies about this, it’s the same. For employers, you’re going to get the best out of your employees when you give them the time to process in the way that they need to process. If we push somebody to do it a different way, we’re not going to get their best, because that’s the whole point is that our brains work differently. And I think when we can celebrate that and not take it personally, it just really, really changes things. So, that piece of not taking it personally is so important.

ERIKA: Don’t take someone’s personality personally. Is that what people say? I love that so much. But that was reminding me about where some of this can come from. If you imagine someone creating a curriculum and they’re an external processor, they’re going to say, and then the students should externally process about this is the way that they’ll learn. You can see how that would totally happen, where it’s like., the way that you learn is by speaking your ideas out loud to someone and having them reflect back what they’ve heard. And it’s like, yeah, some people, for some people that works great. And then for others that will be so uncomfortable.

And so, I think the message that we can learn through mainstream culture can feel like, okay, we realize that there are differences in people sometimes, but we should try to fix that. Or we should figure out the best way and get people to fit into this mold of whoever is basically in power or in charge and what makes sense to them.

And so, we’ve had explorations about all these different personality things, like the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs test, the strengths finder, all these different things that give us more information about how our own brains work. And I feel like once we see, oh, people have come up with these different groupings and you can read them and be like, oh yeah, I’m not like that at all. But there are some people who are. Then it just expanded the possibilities in my mind of what is okay, what is possible, how people are, and it makes it feel like it’s easier to accept other people how they are and, like we were saying earlier, assuming positive intent about what they do.

PAM: Accept other people as they are. And also accept ourselves as we are. Because it’s like, oh, I keep trying to fix this, because everybody talks about how bubbly extroverts are just lovely, amazing. And I have bubbly extrovert friends. And also, it’s draining. And you absolutely want to do the thing, but you need the recovery time too. And you may feel bad about that sometimes. And so, seeing how different people can be helps me be like, oh, it’s okay for me to just be me. I don’t need to fix myself to be these different ways, because it’s just okay that we all are different.

And then one tool I wanted to bring up that I found really helpful, particularly with my kids is, there was always this phrase to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And I would try to do that. And I found as I was doing that, as my kids left school, they were home more and I was trying to figure out all this, looking for the learning and the curiosity and what their interests were. And I would find myself putting myself in their shoes and I’m like, A, B, C, I would choose D. And I realized over time that it wasn’t so helpful for me to be in their shoes if I was trying to empathize with them and if I was trying to understand their choices. It wasn’t helping me understand their choices.

So, the little tool that worked for me was to see things through their eyes. And when I used that language for myself, it helped me remember to go into their brain and to remember what their interests were, to remember their personality pieces, to remember how their brain likes to immerse itself in things and how it processes, all these people that are different pieces. It reminded me to bring their pieces in, instead of my pieces. Because me stepping into their shoes was just me putting all my personality and brain into that situation, and of course I’m going to make different choices. But when I could look through their eyes and see what it looked like to them, I came to understand their choices so much better.

So, it didn’t seem like something out of the blue. It’s like, oh, of course that would look interesting. Of course, they would make this choice. It just really helped me better understand them. Then I could connect better. I could empathize with them. I could validate. I could support their choices with the understanding that me being a different person would make a different choice, but their choice makes complete sense for them. That was a really helpful to tool for me to kind of make that distinction.

ANNA: And I think part of that, and it’s kind of what you’re describing, but maybe a little bit different, is just it helps us communicate. So, we talk about narration a lot, but I think when we understand these differences, if I feel like I’m having trouble communicating with someone and maybe I can’t even pinpoint the difference, because I’m still locked into how I’m seeing the situation, I can step back and narrate a little bit to go, okay, so I’m not sure if this is how you’re seeing it, but here’s how it’s feeling to me and here’s what I’m thinking I need to do. It’s less threatening than me trying to direct us to do the thing. It’s opening up for them to say, “Oh wow, no, I don’t see it that way at all. I really think we need to do this,” and then we can have an interesting conversation. But I feel like we can’t even get to that place of communicating if we’re stuck in our story of, there’s one right way.

And I love that you mentioned that, Erika, because that’s the key, right? To know there is never one right way. And even with things that seem like, but what about this? Because, like you said, some of these things seem like facts, it’s cold. How is that not a fact? Well, bodies are different, you know? And so, it isn’t a fact. And so, I love that piece of just remembering there’s not one right way. We all are so different. So, I’m going to slow my communication down a little bit. I’m going to say a little bit more about what’s happening in my mind, especially with the people I want to be in close relationship with, because they’re going to learn more about me, I’m going to learn more about them, and we’re going to have a lot less headbutting as we’re trying to move towards something, because we’re slowing that down a little bit.

ERIKA: Yeah. I love that. And I think that slowing down is really key, because our go-tos are so automatic and so fast. It’s very easy to assume we’re all there, we’re all on the same page. We all got to the same conclusion. You know what I mean? And so, I was thinking that it can make you feel uneasy when you start to realize how different someone else who is close to you is from you. When we first have children, it might feel like they’re going to just be little me, they’re going to be like us. And as we start to learn how different they are, I think it can be a challenge at times.

But then, I can rewrite that story for myself, too. It’s not difficult. It’s fun and this is really what makes life interesting. It’s not about finding people who are exactly, precisely like me in every way in order to have met my match, or in order to get along. It’s more about having fun figuring people out and learning about each other and our differences. And just imagining that every person in the world is this complex, unique human being, it’s kind of exciting. But yeah, I can sometimes fall in that trap of like, I just want someone who understands everything about how I am. But it’s too complicated. There’s too much. But that’s okay. That’s just part of the richness of life, that everyone will bring all of their own things to every moment.

PAM: Like you said earlier, it’s that shift to getting curious. It’s giving ourselves that space for that shift, because yes, I think that can be so much about where we are in the moment, too, when things feel overwhelming. Oh my gosh, they just do this. Why this one? But we can take that moment to remember, people are different. And I think it helps, too, having worked through it. We’ve talked about this a lot before, like you said, how much fun it ends up being. How we end up in places that we, on our own, could never have imagined. And it’s super cool and fun, and my life is richer and my world is wider.

And yes, it took some energy and yes, maybe I don’t always have the capacity for it, but when I can do it, it is amazing and it’s worth the time to make that shift, to look through their eyes, to get curious about, why doesn’t that sound interesting? And knowing the personalities, that people are different. Because maybe you don’t ask your child, why is that interesting to you? Because it would feel judgmental just in the way that things are phrased like that. But last month in the Network, our topic was intentional language and that just reaches everywhere. Because people are different, words mean different things to them. There are so many layers to this.

ANNA: So many layers. And I’m going to bring the judgment piece back again, because I think it can be when we’re feeling judgmental about someone, we’re most likely here. We’re talking about our kids or our partner, but really anyone, it’s a really great time to pause and say, where’s that coming from? Because I would argue that probably a big chunk of the time, it’s coming from a belief that they’re not doing it the way we would do it. And then when we recognize, oh, there isn’t the one right way, people are just different. I mean, gosh, letting go of that judgment is so valuable to relationships because it really is so surprising to the person on the other end. Because their way of processing and working has been working for them all these years. And now you’re coming in saying it’s wrong and passing judgment. It’s surprising. And so it can be disconnecting.

And so, I think it’s just so important when those little red flags of, like, am I being frustrated by this conversation? Or am I not understanding something? Or am I passing judgment about something?That’s when I want to stop and change that lens. Bring this people are different lens, bring that curiosity, because it really just makes such a difference.

And when we think about our kids, if we’re judging how they’re spending their time or how they’re moving through their day, this came up with another person not too long ago where, I think they were judging the way the kids spent the day, because they were thinking, “What would I do if I had this free environment? This free environment where I didn’t have to go to school?” And they were putting their child self in this environment that they had created thinking these are all the things that I would do and it would be amazing. And the kids were not doing any of them. “They’re over there doing this thing that I don’t like at all.” But it’s like, oh, but this is what they’re doing with the freedom. This is what they are being drawn to in this moment.

And so again, when we see ourselves like bringing that judgment lens, it’s like, can we let that go and just go, huh, I’m curious about this? I want to understand and recognize that might be what I would do, but it’s not what they’re doing and there’s really good reason for that because we’re all so very different.

ERIKA: Yeah, it’s like when we’re thinking, “Well, you should,” just any “should,” like they should do this. He should do that. That’s a really good little red flag, because it pops into my head all the time. I think it’s a really natural thing to think, because I have good ideas about what I would do and so then it just feels like, and they should as well, but that would be a good red flag to catch.

And then I wanted to mention a little a-ha moment I had with Josh. So, my husband and I have different personalities. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of big differences. And so, one of the things is, he was talking about his frustration with some people at work, and he’s just like, people just want to be happy. I don’t understand why they’re making these choices or whatever. And so, his big belief about the world is that all people, their main thing is that they want to be happy.

And I was like, okay, but that’s your belief about the world. Not everybody’s number one thing is to be happy people. Their number one thing may be to make an impact on the world. Some people, their number one thing is to be safe. There are so many possible different number one things, but from his perspective, it’s like, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone not that number one thing to be happy, have fun, and just be happy. And so, it sounds really good to him. That was an a-ha moment, I think, for both of us being like, okay, so that’s why some of these behaviors of other people just make no sense and can be so frustrating.

And it also goes a long way to explain why he would make the choices he makes in his life. And so, I think that if you’re a curious sort of person and interested in diving deeper into these personality things, like asking those questions of yourself, like what are those core, important things to me? And then just ask other people like, what are the things for you? Because I just think you’d be really surprised by how different even people who you get along really well with, even people who you have these close relationships with, just how different people are.

PAM: Yeah. And being a partner. Because it’s been forever and it’s very typical. Anyway, it is like the way you pack the dishwasher, it’s like there’s one way, there is one right way. It’s like, but this is the most efficient, and so, I think it’s super fun. That’s when we’ve been going back and forth. It’s there’s not just one way. And so, if you like it this way and that’s super important to you, I’ll keep my hands off it.

But the interesting piece, I think, for me, too, is just to open that up for ourselves, to recognize, does this feel like I’m doing this the one right way? It ties in with what you’re saying here. This is the one way for me. Why is that? What are those pieces that feel really good when I put this dish here and this dish here? And why do I put knives this way or this way, or whatever it is. What is it that’s feeling good about the thing that I’m doing that feels good for me?

Which then opens up that lens to, oh, like that really aligns with my personality, with who I am as a person, with the way I like to do things. And that helps me recognize through that people are different lens that other people, some people don’t have efficiency at the top of their list.

There are just so many different lenses. It doesn’t have to be the fastest way. It doesn’t have to be the shiniest way. And that gets us to recognizing the messages, too, that we’ve absorbed, the whole cultural productivity efficiency. That is a shining gold star that one must shoot for throughout anything that you’re doing during the day. And it’s just so fascinating. I think it can be helpful for us to observe that in ourselves. That helps us peel it back or knock away a little bit again so that we can recognize it’s not just one right way.

ANNA: And I think that speaks to what Erika said, where school is kind of trying to force us to that one place. And so, I think it’s really interesting to actually do some introspection about, okay, is that priority that I’ve set here really about how my brain works and how I work, or is it what I think I’m supposed to do? Because that’s a whole other layer of it. But, right, I love the dishwasher example, and it reminded me of a friend that, I mean, this is even hard for me to say these words. Okay. So, she would take the utensils from the dishwasher and just dump them in the drawer. Just dumped ’em all in the drawer. And so, you would just open the drawer and you’d fish around to get out a fork or whatever. This is very stressful for me and I don’t feel like I’m overly organized, but I’m like, I want the forks in the fork area, want the knives in the knife area. But it was so not a priority for her. She just was like, but why would you waste your time doing that when you could be doing fun things?

I’m guessing she probably has that Josh and David thing. Like why when you could be doing fun things? And I’m like, oh. But I don’t see it as a waste of like, it just doesn’t seem like it takes that much time. But again, this piece of people are different, we just prioritize things differently. There are just different things. And our priorities can change. There may be a time when there’s a lot going on in my life where I really do need some calm, clean surfaces, or I need a little bit less stimulation, and then other times where I’m fine. And so, that’s where, if we can keep that curiosity, we can keep that open communication going. We’re not taking it personally, we’re not getting frustrated. We’re just recognizing that we’re all so different.

ERIKA: Yeah. And just how fast is it to just dump the dump that silverware in there! That’s really the fastest way! It hadn’t even occurred to me, but that is incredibly much faster than what I do. So funny. But they’ve never had problems with it. But if you do have the partner who wants to be super organized, like I fall into the trap sometimes of being like, he’s doing that because he doesn’t like me, because he doesn’t care about my feelings, is why he does it that way. You know what I mean? So, that’s the taking it extremely personally. I could be like, oh my gosh, she’s dumping all that silverware in there, because she doesn’t care at all about how I feel about the drawer. But it’s like, no, it doesn’t even occur to her.

ANNA: Right! I think that is such a fun example to end on, and that it’s fun to think about all the different ways that we’re different and all the different ways that we prioritize things. And that it isn’t saying something about someone else, it’s only saying something about us. And so, when we can stay there, gosh, it just really revolutionizes all the relationships.

PAM: All the relationships. It really does. Because then you can embrace and celebrate somebody else’s way of doing things and choices that they make without like feeling like you are wrong or that it says something about you. It’s like, this is so you and that’s amazing and I’m so excited that you’re discovering this and exploring, expressing whatever it is, whether it’s through actions, choices, dress, everything. And then I go back to, we’re all human beings. And we’re each one of us different and just keep peeling back those layers because every time someone’s like, huh, why? Oh, people are different. Let’s tap that for a little bit and see. Where does that lead me? Because oh, it leads beautiful places, doesn’t it?

ANNA: It really does. So, I’m excited for people to take this lens and see what happens. So, leave us some comments, reach out, and I just appreciate the two of you so much. I love talking about these ideas with you and thinking about all the different ways that it is valuable in our lives. And if you all listening love these conversations, we really would love to have you at the Living Joyfully Network. We have a lot of fun conversations and so many a-ha moments and it just fills me up so much.

So, you can find a link for that under the community tab at livingjoyfullyshop.com. Thank you so much for joining us today!

PAM: Have a great day. See you all later. Bye!

ERIKA: Bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about curiosity-led learning. We thought this would be a fun topic to dive into during this back-to-school season! Focusing on curiosity—our own and our kids’—can be so grounding.

In this episode, we explore the definition of learning, how school-based learning looks different than learning through unschooling, and how we’ve seen curiosity at play in our families.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both.

ANNA AND PAM: Hello!

ERIKA: And before we get started, have you checked out LivingJoyfullyShop.com yet? Our online shop has Pam’s unschooling books, lots of helpful coaching options and online courses such as Four Pillars of Unschooling, which is great if you’re newer to unschooling and Navigating Unschooling Wobbles if you’re finding that back-to-school season has gotten you feeling unsure about things.

We also have courses on validation and on navigating conflict. You can also learn more about the Living Joyfully Network there. We’re so excited to be creating a one-stop shop to support you along your unschooling journey, and we hope you’ll check it out.

Pam, would you like to get us started with our topic for today, which is curiosity-led learning?

PAM: Yes, I would love to! Because I feel like this is one of the first big paradigm shifts that people encounter and that I encountered when I began exploring unschooling in earnest. But even if you’ve been unschooling for years, I would not be surprised of just listening in on this conversation reveals yet another layer that you can peel back around the value of curiosity-led learning.

Like, “Oh, it applies here, too.” I’m still getting those little layers. As you encounter it out in the wild in our lives, there’s always, always more layers.

But culturally, the message is that learning must be led by curricula, that there’s a step-by-step, linear process that needs to be followed for “real” learning to happen, and that learning is hard, that it’s challenging. Here’s the next step. Learn this. Here’s the next step.

And what unschooling does is encourage us to ask ourselves, is that the only way to learn? Because some people pick things up that way. We all went through school that way, and we learned what we did. And then it’s always fun to look back and think, how much did I remember? How do I define learning? Is that really learning? If really I can just do it on a worksheet, but I have no idea how to bring that into my days and into my life? It is just a beautiful, beautiful paradigm shift when you start looking, oh, are there other ways to learn? Is this other learning that I’m doing just because I love this thing, does it discount the learning I’m doing about it? If it’s not hard, is it learning? There are just so many ways to look at it.

And then when we give ourselves enough space to start questioning it and start looking at, okay, well, I know this was really fun, but I have been learning lots and it’s been useful learning for me, does that count? And just start looking at it through that lens and recognizing things like, oh my gosh, it doesn’t feel hard. Even though you may notice other people saying, “Oh my gosh. How did you learn all that? That depth of knowledge,” et cetera. And they’re talking about it being difficult, whereas it feels much easier to us because we were interested in it in the first place because our curiosity was guiding us and we’re like, oh, yes, I want more. I want more. I want more.

When we start to notice all those little different aspects of it and start to bring that all together, we start to play with, what does curiosity-led learning look like? And wow, it’s pretty darn amazing. It really is valuable. It’s like all the things. And we can start to replace what is curriculum-led, what somebody else thinks we should be learning with what we’re interested in learning. And it just opens up this whole box. It’s just removes the box on what learning can look like for us. Can’t it?

ANNA: Yeah. For me, I think what’s so interesting is I feel like this is actually the natural process, how we all, as adults learn. Like, “Okay, there’s something that I want to do and so what do I need to know in order to do that thing?” And so, then it’s the relevant pieces that maybe I want to take up this hobby and I need to learn this, or maybe I want to take this particular job and gosh, I better learn these things. But it’s so relevant. So, for me it’s about bringing that “relevant” piece to it.

And you kind of mentioned this, where the retaining comes in, because when it’s something that we’re using every day or is relevant to something that we’re interested in, we actually do retain it, because we’re practicing, we’re using, we’re tweaking all the time. And so, I think that piece is so interesting that school has kind of separated that and made it very irrelevant.

So, we’re learning and putting things on a piece of paper. We don’t really understand why. And so, what I learned in school was really how to do that, how to take and memorize information and give it to them in the form that they wanted. It’s interesting to me now as an adult, sometimes I’ll think about something that was covered in school and I’m like, that’s why they wanted that to be covered, but it meant nothing to me in the 30 years in between. But now I’m like, now that it’s relevant, I can go back and refresh. I don’t remember it from then, but I can go back and refresh. But I thought, oh, how interesting. Because somebody somewhere thought this was important in their life. And so, they wanted kids to know it. But I don’t feel like humans learn that way.

ERIKA: Right. It’s so interesting, isn’t it? I just feel like what has happened is that the way that schools do things has become the definition of what learning is, but if you really think about it, it doesn’t work. Our brains do not work that way. But if we think learning is, someone tells you what you need to know, it’s in this order, it’s these important things, these facts at this age, whatever, then the curiosity part, it never even gets looked at or considered. It’s not even a consideration at all.

But we know from ourselves, from watching our kids, just from looking at people, like you’ve seen the glazed-over eyes of kids in class. Certainly. I mean, certainly over the years I have seen that as a teacher and I’ve seen it as a student and information is not getting in there. So, as far as just choosing to teach someone something that they’re not interested in, that’s not causing learning to happen. And so, I really think we need to just change the definition. Don’t call it learning if all you’re doing is having someone lecture to someone else about something that they don’t want to know. That’s not learning.

And so, I feel like a lot of the “learning” that I did in school was that temporary, memorize it, cram it in my brain, get it out onto the paper for the test, and then it’s gone. And so, now I can look back and just be like, what was the use of that time for me, other than, like you said, learning to memorize, learning to take tests, that kind of thing?

Thankfully, when I was in school, I was so interested in doing well in school, that that itself kind of became my interest. And so, learning the things in class to do on the test, that process was more my interest, because I wanted to get the good grades. My kids do not have this personality. And so, with them, it just has to be curiosity-led. I can’t see another way. They don’t want to learn things that they’re not interested in. And so, then the fun part is then how fun, natural, easy, all the things, they will dive so deeply into things that they’re interested in. And so, now I see it as the only way for learning to happen is through curiosity.

PAM: Yeah. It’s really how you define learning, right? Is learning the regurgitation piece for the grades, is it the retention piece we’ll get to? And for those peeling back more layers, do we even need to look at learning? That’s a topic for another conversation. But there were two or three pieces that I really wanted to pull out, Erika, from what you said there. One was, let’s call it something else. And you know what popped to mind was, let’s call that teaching.

Just because teaching is done doesn’t mean learning is happening. Teaching is somebody else telling people, you’re going to know this and this is the process to get this answer, and this is a noun, etc. And so, the teaching happens whether or not the learning happens, like you’re saying, Erika, I love the distinction of, what came to be my interest was getting good grades, which is then again, another conversation. But that is what helped you move through the school process, exist in that environment, take stuff in from the teaching, and then spew it out on the test for the grades. Totally, totally fine.

And what is super interesting, and what I found, like you mentioned too, Anna, is that the retention just isn’t there when you’re not using it or interested in it. Because for me, one of the big shifts with this shift to curiosity-led learning was looking at learning from my child’s perspective. That helped me start to recognize when it was actually learning I was talking about and not teaching. And to make that distinction between the two. Sometimes my kids are interested in learning something and want some information, but the interest is there first and then they’re going to soak it in. They’re going to ask questions. They’re going to ask, but, but why, but how? And then you get into that conversation, they pick up what they’re interested in. That helps them make that next connection and that next connection and then they move on. And it doesn’t have to be a week’s worth of worksheets and repetition, because they were ready to soak that in.

And then the other piece that I really enjoy when I think about learning, because so much of the school as we were talking about, is that linear curricula. You learn this and then learn this and then learn this. Like, this is the best way to put this knowledge together. But my preference over the years has really become thinking of learning more as a web of connections of like, oh, there’s this piece and this piece and this piece. Because truly, when you break subjects down, there is really so much crossover in the real world. There is math all over the place. There’s math in poetry, in words, there’s math in geography. There’s just so much crossover. Once you start breaking them into the silos of subjects, you lose that richness, whereas when you’re following your curiosity and just seeing where it leads you, you may end up over in one subject for a couple of days and then back into another subject, but you are making connections between it all.

There’s just a much bigger, deeper richness to the learning that happens when you’re following the things that you’re curious about, the things that you’re interested in. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to do the hard things. I think that’s one of the little stumbling blocks that can come up when people are first learning about, well, if we are just going to follow our interests, we’re never going to do anything hard, because if something looks hard, I’m not going to be interested.

Well, look at your kids. And actually notice, so often, when they’re frustrated, that’s because they’re wanting to do something that’s hard for them right now, but they want to do it, so they’re going to keep going. Even if you wish, like, okay, let’s go do something else for a while because you’re uncomfortable with the frustration. But no, there’s beauty in that frustration as well. And of course, we want to support, give space, hold all those pieces for them. But it’s not wrong to be frustrated. It doesn’t mean they’re not a good learner, because they’re frustrated. It means none of those things. It means, oh they’re really determined in this moment. And how can I help them, if they’re looking for some help, to start putting something together? What’s that little connection they’re missing in their web, right?

ANNA: Yeah. Something you said, Erika, it was about the learning. I think it’s really helpful if people find themselves saying things like, I don’t think they’re learning anything, they’re playing games all the time, or they’re building forts all the time, they’re not learning. I think this is really important to really ask yourself, what do I think learning means? Am I only looking at it through this lens of, “Well, they’re not sitting down doing fractions or times tables,” because really, learning as humans is so much broader than that.

And so, I loved how you pointed out that we’ve taken this system that’s really a subset and hasn’t always been around to define this concept that is just really innate to humans. We are just learning machines. How do we survive the day? How do we get through this? That is what we do.

And so, I think when you hear yourself saying things like that go, oh wait a minute. What am I defining as learning and why? And this is important. There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s just a little examination. I think it’s important.

One of the things I also wanted to say was about the doing hard things, because we said it’s easier when it’s led by our curiosity. But it can be hard, right? It can be frustrating. It can take time. And that’s okay too, because what you’ll see is there’s this drive to figure out and sometimes walk away from it and then sometimes come back. But it’s just so much more natural and I love that.

And then another thing Pam reminded me of, so Pam is amazing at technology and systems and all of these things. I am not as much. I’m not terrible, but if you put me in that world, I’m not as good at it. And so, I really don’t retain all the, of all the different pieces, even about things I use pretty regularly, because it just isn’t a passion area for me. And so, I think it’s just knowing about ourselves and thinking, yeah, that’s kind of how it works. If I need to know, I can Google it. I can figure it out. I can ask Pam. She may be like, “She’s asking me again!” But it’s okay, you know?

So, I think just thinking about how we do things and then recognizing that our kids are human, too, doing things, it can really help when we get stuck in this place.

ERIKA: Right, exactly. I just feel like once we start thinking about ourselves and how we actually really learn, it becomes this different way that we can look at our kids. And I think sometimes when we first go into parenting, first go into the idea of how children learn, it’s just old tapes of what we’ve been told over the years of, school is the place you learn. You have to know these things. This is what it should look like. And so, I loved my unschooling journey for that process of questioning that and being like, wait a second. If I can learn things, anything I want, now, they can also learn anything they want at any time. And there’s just a lot of freedom in that.

And then I was also thinking, a lot of people have had the experience, too, in school of like, maybe they do hit on a topic that you might be interested in, and then they say, that’s enough of that, let’s move on to something else. And so, that’s a really huge benefit of unschooling is just like, oh my gosh. I found something I want to do. Can I do more of this? And the answer’s always yes. And they can just dive as deeply as they want. And so, then we meet really interesting children who have so much knowledge in this one super deep area that’s just incredible. And so, they may not have all of their whatever other skills that the school would be looking for at that age, but they have spent their time learning about something that’s so important and interesting to them. And from there, whatever they want to do in life, it becomes obvious what they might be curious about next.

And so, I find that so much with my kids who are now young teenagers. They used to be so focused on certain things and then now it’s different. It’s like they’re in a new phase. They’re finding new aspects of life that now they’re curious about and interested in. Like, how am I going to manage to do this in my life? I want to do this and I know that I need to learn more things to get there. You know? And so, it’s just a very different way. I felt very directed down a path, but it feels like for them, they’re making a path and seeing where they want to go, and then telling me, “I really want to work on my handwriting because that would really help me with this.” And I’m just like, yeah, that makes sense. It’s a completely different approach.

PAM: I want to jump in, because that’s what was bubbling in my head. Erika, you nailed it. There is one thing when you’re making the shift away from curriculum and into curiosity and interests is, it’s fascinating to note how much of the curriculum, certainly in the younger years is skill-based, like reading and math and handwriting, like those skills, whereas that’s not really what you’re going to see very often in unschooling lives, because they’re following their interests.

But what they’re doing instead of learning the skill, like, two plus two is four, and then now let’s take that into the world. Here’s how to read beginner books, now let’s take that into the world. Our kids are, like you said, they’re doing stuff and they’re like, oh, hey, like I’m playing this game and I’ve got these boss statistics I need to manage. I’m going to figure out how those numbers are working and what formulas back there. Or I really want to read this forum and yes, my parents, somebody’s helping me read it for a while and then I’m starting to pick it up, or I’m wanting to try and read because somebody doesn’t have time to or isn’t able to read for me for 12 hours. All those pieces.

So, our kids are doing the things in the world and picking up the skills along the way. They’re not like, I want to learn the skill and now I can finally go and play that game. Or now I can finally go and read this book. Or the handwriting. Yes. Go Anna.

ANNA: Well, it’s exactly this though. I’m just going to take the next step. Because what’s so incredible about that is, if we are really true and really honest with ourselves, we don’t know what skills are going to be needed for the next generation and for five years from now and for 10 years from now.

Because I think about the books that were the standard when I was in school, they probably wouldn’t even believe it if kids today read some of the stuff that they thought we needed to know then. And so, what’s so great when it’s coming the other direction, they’re able to take it way further than this curriculum can lead them, because that’s actually pinning them in. But if they’re following interests and creating new things and making new discoveries, and then getting the skills along the way. Yes, those skills can be foundational, but because they’re foundational, they’re always going to learn them. They’re just going to learn them through something that’s interesting and maybe taking them way beyond what we could have done with the curriculum. So, I love that so much.

PAM: For me, that was another one of the huge shifts, right? It was truly just understanding that, oh, it’s not that I’m throwing out the curriculum, and they will never learn how to spell and they’ll never learn how to read and their math skills will be atrocious. Each of those things is so much bigger when you’re actually in the world. Back to what you were talking about at the very beginning, Anna, about just being in the world and living in the world, and we’re just picking up those skills. And yes, if they are actually foundational to living a human life wherever it is that we’re living, you are going to come across the need for them as you’re living.

ANNA: Absolutely. Right. That’s why they’re foundational. We don’t have to force it. And we don’t have to pull it out, because I feel like the way that schools can separate learning from life and reality almost makes it feel mysterious and difficult. Like, what does this mean? Why am I having to do it?

And like you said, the drills, the drills, the drills.

And what I found so interesting with my girls is, in our state at the time, we had to take a standardized test every couple years, I think. Maybe every year. It’s been a little while. But what was so interesting to me is they would be able to do all of these English things and looking at sentences and picking the right word. And I’m like, oh my gosh. I remember filling out those sheets with making the verb match the tense of the thing. And they never did that. They learned it from talking, being spoken to reading books, having books, read to them, playing games. They learned the language that was around them because they were in the world.

And I think that what’s empowering about that is I think they had a belief. I see it in them as adults, that they can figure things out, they can learn things. Whereas I think school kind of makes it mysterious, like, no, you have to be in this room and someone that’s an expert’s going to tell you, and then you’re going to have to really work hard and practice it to learn it. And I just don’t think that’s true. And so, what I love about unschooling is just that questioning. We can start questioning, is that true it? Does that make sense? Do I see that in my life as an adult? Does it really play out when I’m watching my kids organically learn? And that’s when I think things get really interesting.

ERIKA: I think the school model can just lead to people thinking that they can’t learn. Where really, it’s like, I can’t memorize stuff that I’m not interested in, which I think is just natural. Or like, I can’t memorize stuff that makes no sense to me and I can’t use it anywhere in my life. I think that’s reasonable, but to conclude that, then that means I can’t learn, it’s just so sad that that is the result of so much of school-style teaching.

I see it a little bit just culturally with my kids, where they’ll have some of these beliefs of like, I’m supposed to know this, or, well, in school they do this and I can’t do this, or I don’t know if I would be able to. And so, I mean, it’s interesting that those things still come up, even though they can make their own decisions and learn all kinds of things. And so, it’s just interesting to have those conversations with them about like, well, what are the things that you want to do? And thankfully, outside of school, there are an infinite number of ways to learn the things that they want to learn.

And so, we’re working through some new computer programs with Oliver and he took a look at one the other day and he was just like, I don’t think I can learn this. And I was like, it looks super overwhelming at first, but I’m sure that we can figure it out. Either someone who is an expert who could work with you on it or we could look up videos. There are just so many ways to learn.

I think, in some moments we run into those, “I’m not practiced at learning” kind of ideas that they have about it, but then it’s fun to point out to them, but that’s all you do. That really is what you’ve done your whole life. It just doesn’t feel like what it looks like in the stories or what you hear about with your friends who are in school.

ANNA: Right. And that what’s so important about that piece that you just puzzled there is, what I recognized was that my role was my energy about that. Because I think what can happen is, if you hear your child say, I don’t know how to do that, and this person knows how to do this and I don’t know how to do it, suddenly all of our tapes come and the mother-in-law’s tape and the thing going, oh, we failed them. We’ve done this. But really, it was just what you were saying. I was like, wait a minute. I’ve lived with you all these years. I’ve seen you learn things that I can’t even learn. Oh my gosh. We just need some different tools. If this is something you’re interested in now, then here’s the thing.

But they really look to me for my energy. So, if I brought heaviness about, oh my gosh, you don’t know how to do that and we better do this and that, or we need to jump back into that, I think it really would’ve changed that. And instead, it was just, like you said, just empowering them. Like, you are learning incredible things every day. You can learn whatever you want. Let’s figure out what you need and we’ll do it together. So, just watching that energy and making sure that I’m not letting the tapes from other people come into that relationship with my child.

PAM: Yeah. I think that’s definitely us doing our work and practicing, because, like you said, that just brings back all those messages. Oh, but if they were in school, they would’ve learned this in this grade and this in this grade, and taking that leap to the future as in how we learn as adults.

And I think for me, the shift to just thinking of us all as human beings and wherever we are as a human being in this moment and what we’re interested in learning, and even if it feels overwhelming in the moment, like, oh my gosh, something I continue to do is use your time machine idea, Anna, which is when I’m something like, holy crap, I have no idea. I can just imagine in six months when I’m sitting here and just humming along, that’s going to be so cool. And that just kind of helps me take that next step. It’s like, oh yeah, give myself a bunch of time and I’ll just figure it out along the way. I’ll play with it. And that’s the way human beings learn, as you were mentioning earlier.

So, to be able to take our messages and our fears around school and kids and to be able to just say, this is human beings and learning stuff. That helped me so much anyway to just move through those moments, because those cultural messages are everywhere. It’s not just that we learned them growing up and then now we have them. We also hear them all the time now. In this back-to-school season, we hear them even more. And it can have us questioning ourselves.

So, I think it’s so useful for us to do that bit of processing for ourselves, because as you said, Anna, the energy that we show up with can make all the difference. If we show up with, oh my gosh, something’s wrong, that needs fixing, or, oh my goodness, that looks like a lot of stuff to take in just one bite at a time, as they say, baby steps, whatever kind of language helps for them and helps for you as you move through it to remember like, this is just learning.

And I think it’s threaded through our entire conversation, but I don’t know that we’ve said it loud. We can learn something at every age. So, just because something in school is covered in grade four. I always go back to pioneer times, because that was when Joseph left school. That was one of the topics going on. It doesn’t matter at what age. It doesn’t even matter if, but whatever age something comes up about pioneer times, that that period of history, and they’re curious about it, they can learn it at any time. There is no need for it to be done at a certain age. You can see why that’s useful inside a school curriculum, because you don’t want like three years in a row for the teacher to love pioneer times, and they have to do it for three years in a row. They have to break it up that way, right? So, okay, this is the chunk. There’s often not much more logic than that. We’ve got this many years of history to cover, let’s do this much each year. Same with geography, same with so much of it, right? But we can learn anything at any age.

ANNA: Now I’m super curious what Canadian pioneer times are like. I’m going to have to look it up and learn at 55.

PAM: We loved visiting the Pioneer Village. I found it at the time because I was very new at unschooling and thought, well we can do this instead. This is how we can learn it, outside, because he was finding it interesting at the time. But it ended up being one of our favorite places to go as a family for the first two years. We got a park pass, so we could go any time. There’s no cars, so you could walk around. We would bring walkie talkies (before mobile phones) and play tag. Because we could all just be within this area and it wasn’t huge. We would give clues, I’m beside a big steeple, or I see horses, clues like that. And we would go and find each other and my gosh.

We had so much fun in Pioneer Times for two years, like I said, at least. And we go back there just for the memories. We went a couple years ago. Anyway, so that’s funny. Exactly. Any age, any age.

ERIKA: And any topic! I love that so much. Well, this has been so much fun, as expected. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an a-ha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It is such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our own unschooling lives. You can learn more about the Network at livingjoyfully.ca/network or on livingjoyfullyshop.com. We hope to meet you there! And thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time! Bye!

Let’s dive into a question I get pretty regularly, and that’s whether I have podcast episodes with unschooling parents that used to be teachers. It’s fun to ponder the why behind the question. Does it seem like a strange leap to make? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in children and in learning, so […]