For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Stories.

Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they’re all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!

We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

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Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE QUESTIONS

1. What stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family?
2. Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else?
3. Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story?
4. How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?

TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you’re here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they’re thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.

Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it’s worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that’s because humans are storytelling animals. It’s how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, “Story is for a human as water is for a fish – all encompassing and not quite palpable.” I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we’re using.

And what’s really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren’t they?

ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where’s this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I’ve held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That’s one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?

Because there’s an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I’m telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.

And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.

And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I’m defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I’m developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it. 

PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it’s incredible, because it’s not only the stories that we’re telling ourselves, but it’s understanding that the stories we’re telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they’re going to draw from. That’s where they’re going to meet us.

So, first, let’s look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don’t think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we’re spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.

It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?

ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don’t think we can change it. I think that’s something I believed when I was younger. It’s hard to change or we’re given this story that it’s hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It’s no different. It’s no more powerful. And it’s not this boogeyman that it’s kind of made out to be.

And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what’s so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It’s not ours and we don’t have to take it in and own it. It’s about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.

And so, that’s the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what’s actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that’s what’s so important about it. That’s how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.

But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we’re clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it’s always about choices with me. We’re going to keep bringing that up.

PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else’s perspective. It’s their story. So, maybe we’ve absorbed the story that we’re too sensitive, or we’re scared to try new things, or we’re very shy. That isn’t our story. It’s their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.

Speaking of, it’s also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we’re telling our partner about our day. Maybe we’re more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. “I am so tired,” or, “So many things went wrong today.” Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I’m so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.

Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn’t mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, “My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things.”

It means considering who I’m speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I’m saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.

ANNA: Yes. And I think it’s interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we’re like, “Wait a minute, it’s just a story we’re telling about how we had these tough things,” you know? So, keep all that in mind. It’s the lifeblood of communication. I don’t think that’s an overstatement. I think that’s really so true.

And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that’s okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.

PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can’t control where they are on their journey.

Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I’ve spoken with, when we’re feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we’ve said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn’t true.

It’s so helpful to remember that, when we’re thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we’re making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don’t know for sure. So don’t assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see. 

ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people’s heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. “They’re upset with me. I did something wrong. They don’t like what I’m doing,” whatever the words were saying. Even, “They’re trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me.” So often, we get that very wrong. We really don’t know what’s happening in another person’s head.

I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn’t leave room for anything else. Once you’ve created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you’ve ever had one of those dreams where it’s so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you’re still super mad and they’re going like, “What is happening? I just woke up. I don’t know what you’re talking about!”

But it’s the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it’s coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person’s free to share what they’re actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we’re making up.

So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn’t share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn’t find her attractive. And she said, “He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall.” And I was like, “Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?” And she was like, “Well, no.” And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.

And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it’s very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That’s just how insidious these stories are. And I think it’s just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it’s justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we’ve held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.

You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it’s so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what’s really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we’re seeing it differently, but that won’t happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.

PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don’t feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it’s a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn’t just one possible story. It wasn’t just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.

And usually, when I’m feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn’t feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, “Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?”

On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don’t know what’s going on in another person’s life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That’s their story, their truth. That’s been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it’s their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.

ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don’t work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.

For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That’s the power of story. 

PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it’s so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it’s usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.

So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don’t take the time to consider other stories, we’re not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can’t choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn’t about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.

Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I’m in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.

ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it’s a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it’s just a story. We’re making it up in our heads.

And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I’m going to make up a story, I’m going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you’re talking about.

So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we’ve talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there’s someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.

But other times, like you said, it really isn’t even possible. When it’s not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it’s just as likely to be true as the one that doesn’t. And so, I’m just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don’t even know the full story. And so, that’s why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that’s exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what’s in front of me and find a story that feels good.

And again, it’s not about pushing the other things aside. It’s not about pretending that things didn’t happen or changing the story. It’s just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what’s happening around me. So, for me, if it’s a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it’s not about pretending that the difficult situation didn’t happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I’ve received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they’ve helped me through this situation. Look at what I’ve learned about myself from it.

Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that’s also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.

PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.

ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you’re like, “Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn’t have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it,” but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, “What? But we’ve been told that forever!”

But no, set that aside, because we don’t have to make situations more difficult. There’s going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.

PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, “Life is hard.” Don’t we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, “Well, you’re a Pollyanna. You’re not seeing the truth.” Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.

Now, you and I have both heard, “You guys are always so positive,” and people think it’s weird at first, which is okay, because it’s part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there’s more than one way to tell the story. We don’t always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it. 

ANNA: Right. And the reason I’m telling the story is for me. It’s not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It’s because it helps me be the person I want to be.

It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, “I get it now. I get that you’re not just a Pollyanna about life. It’s that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations.” And I’m like, “Yes, that’s absolutely it.” I’m not thinking about anybody else’s reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that’s my internal work.

Now, I’m understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool.” It’s a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it’s just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that’s the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you’ll start to see things that wouldn’t have happened in the other mindset.

ANNA: Yeah, it’s really true. And I do think it’s so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.

I mean, I definitely get that. “You’re always looking on the bright side!” And I’m like, I feel all the things, but it’s just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.

So, let’s talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that’s a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there’s a lot of stories there.

Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don’t need to own their story. That story’s not about me at all.

And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it’s kind of this bugaboo that we’re unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don’t you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.

PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I’ve absorbed over the years? It’s someone else’s view that I’ve adopted because they can really feel like that’s our story, That’s our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. “I should be able to do this quickly,” or, “I shouldn’t be so sensitive.” There are just so many stories that we’ve absorbed over time that are really somebody else’s view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What’s wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.

ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I’m so sensitive or I can’t get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.

And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it’s just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it’s a cheat. But it’s like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there’s tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.

PAM: Yeah, and I think that’s one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn’t stuff that we’re making up. We’re not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that’s going on around you.

It’s, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it’s become such a useful tool, because I know I’m more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That’s helped me.

ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.

PAM: Bye, everyone.

We are so excited to be participating in The Unschooling Summit again this year!

We participated last year and it was such a wonderful event that we want to make sure people know it’s happening again this year.

To that end, we asked Summit hosts Esther Jones and Melissa Crockett-Joyoue if they’d be up to join us to talk about it!

The Details

Join other parents from around the world for three days of inspiration and community at The Unschooling Summit. This free virtual event will feature 90+ unschooling experts and advocates.

• You’ll have access to interviews with some of the top experts and advocates in the field of unschooling and self-directed learning
• You can take part in live roundtables with seasoned unschooling parents discussing some of the most important topics that come up for unschooling families (teens, neurodivergent children, self-care, community etc)
• You can attend live, interactive workshops 
• You can connect with other parents in community networking sessions
• You can join a closed Facebook group and connect with other parents from around the world who are exploring a different path with their children

Whether you’re curious about how unschooling could work for your family, looking for support on your journey or keen to delve into how unschooling can be a tool for social change and personal growth, there will be plenty there for you!

The Unschooling Summit takes place online from March 20th-22nd, 2026.

You can get your free ticket here!

Note that that’s an affiliate link and you help support Living Joyfully when you use it. Thank you!

To finish off our month-long celebration of 10 years of Exploring Unschooling, we’re sharing another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member and long-time unschooling mom Erin Rosemond. Erin is a mom of four grown children living in Canada. She writes about home education on her blog Ever Learning, co-hosts The Virtual Kitchen Table podcast, and offers mentorship and facilitation for families and individuals.

We talked about developing self-awareness on the unschooling journey and how it leads to a beautiful place of authenticity. Erin shared about how her ability to advocate for her children strengthened over the years. We also dove into the path from attachment parenting to unschooling and how focusing on the relationships we have with our children has been the thread that connects it all.

It was a really lovely discussion and we hope you find it helpful!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Episode 285, Unschooling Stories with Erin Rosemond

Find Erin’s work at her website, https://www.everlearning.ca/

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-host Anna Brown and Erika Ellis, as well as our guest today, Erin Rosemond.

So this month, we have been reflecting back on 10 years of the podcast, exploring what we’ve learned, what’s changed, and what still matters. And we are thrilled to have Erin join us to continue the conversation.

We’re going to dive into these three questions with her and I am very excited to hear her thoughts. And if you don’t yet know Erin, she is a long time unschooling parent known online as EverLearning. She co-hosts the podcast, Virtual Kitchen Table, where they share experiences and ideas about family life and unschooling.

And she’s been a long time member of the Living Joyfully Network, which we so, so appreciate. If you would like to hear more about her unschooling journey, I spoke with her back in episode 285 of this podcast, and she shared some wonderful insights. So I do encourage you to go back and listen to that episode.

But to get us started today, Erin, we’re just going to dive right in. What’s one of the most impactful things you’ve learned on your unschooling journey? 

ERIN: So, I looked at this question, and it’s such a challenging question, but in a good way.  Because there are so many impactful parts, it’s crazy how impactful it is. And I feel like when you talk to other people who are following this path and doing things this way, that’s one of the things that they say is that they couldn’t possibly have imagined how much impact it would have in so many different areas. So yeah, so I was like, oh, where to begin?

I had a few different words come to mind. The first word that came to mind was authenticity. And maybe I’ll end up touching on that. And then it got me thinking about the idea of emotional maturity. And that kind of wove me around to where I think I’ve landed at the moment, which is just – self-awareness. And so if I’m understanding the question properly, because I guess I’m thinking about certainly the impact on me, but I also think that’s very impactful on our children, and just generally the people in our lives.

And I think that probably isn’t something that I had thought about at the beginning. I think most people probably don’t. Even before school age, coming from more of an attachment parenting, conscious parenting paradigm, that was just about my baby, right?

That was about what felt best. You’re operating with what seems to be the kindest, most practical way to parent, and you’re not really thinking a lot about self-awareness. But of course, that’s developing along the way. We do all that early reading, and then it just, I know different people come to this path from different directions, but I think I pipelined in through attachment parenting more than anything.

So really, it was just gradual. Continuing to read, continuing to talk to people, hear other people’s experiences, trial and error for myself. And then it gets to a point where you realize, if you’re going to parent in this really respectful way, it’s actually quite hard. It feels like it shouldn’t be hard, but it really kind of rubs up against a lot of what we’ve been taught, what we’ve learned, sometimes what society values and promotes.

I just think you end up doing so much self-reflection, because you bump up against these things, and you think, okay, well, what would the conventional response be. It might be taking a privilege away, or it might be controlling this or controlling that. And it’s really hard to be in a respectful relationship with somebody when you’re controlling them. And it’s kind of arbitrary.

I mean, of course, as parents, we sometimes have to safeguard things. I’m not suggesting otherwise. But I think it’s that word arbitrary, where we’re just deciding that there’s a different standard because they’re children. And so I think that the amount of self-awareness that we have to develop is actually mind blowing.

Because it’s not just about how they learn or our interactions, there’s a ripple effect. They bring in friends, or kids are adults now. So they bring in partners or spouses, and you just have this circle of people that if you want to remain in good relationship with your kids, which I do, you need to think about how do I want to respond in this moment? And what do I want this memory to be like for them, you know?

I feel like I have so much more I can say about this, but maybe I’ll just leave it there for a minute. Yeah, it’s just that ability now, I think, to stop and pause before responding, and just imagine all the different ways there are to do something and to think about something. And if I’m having a certain feeling about that, what’s that about?  Just getting curious about that. Yeah, like I said, I’ve got a lot, but I’ll stop for now.

PAM: Yeah. Okay, I’ll pick up first. Oh, my goodness. I love that that is what you picked. And like you said, there are just so many aspects. One, that bubbled up, is the hard work piece.

We’ve talked before on the podcast and network. Do I put in the effort, the work, the engagement beforehand, having the self-awareness to figure something out, right? Or do I choose that it’s going to happen after, if things break down? When we want to put the relationship first, and then we need to repair, because we didn’t put in a lot of the time upfront to look at everybody’s perspective. How do I feel in this moment? What does that mean about me?

That’s the whole self-awareness piece. And then being open to other people’s self-awareness, and not even defining it, other people’s choices, other people’s agency, how other people are seeing this moment, right? So we’ve talked about that piece.

So, that’s part of the question. But I love even more depth, that’s a choice. And often, we forget about considering, because maybe the relationship breakdown happens a day or two later, right? The next time we try to engage more deeply, and they brush us off, because they’re still upset about what we did two days ago. And that’s when you realize, so it’s hard, it can be hard to connect those two pieces. 

But even regardless of that, where you got to the authenticity, where you started, showing up in the moment as the person you want to be, as Anna talks about quite a bit, it’s self-awareness. It’s just interwoven with that so intricately, because how can we know who we want to be when we show up in the moment, unless we understand ourselves.

I feel like I learned that from watching my kids when they came home, because they could show up more authentically, because they hadn’t absorbed quite as many of the conventional messages yet. Those messages that say, when this happens, you do this. And when in this situation, you do this. And when somebody else does this to you, you do this, you know, we have absorbed so many of those cultural messages in how we’re supposed to respond.

And we’re often with great intentions raised by parents who are telling us, in this situation, you do this, or I want you to do this, remember that. It’s something new for us, I think. And that’s why I find what you’re saying about this self-awareness piece being such a huge and impactful part of the journey and realizing it’s understanding ourselves.

And then I think through understanding ourselves, we recognize how different we are, how different other people are, and then realizing, oh, geez, everybody has got a unique perspective. And then like you said, then you have more and more people joining the family community. And then it’s just more and more perspectives.

But that we, at least for me so far, find I get to enjoy the moments more when I’ve done that work or understand people, because I can be more present in them versus part of my mind thinking, but in this situation, we should each be doing XYZ. And I’m trying to prod people, even gently, to do the right thing, etc. So I loved your answer.

ERIN: Well, and something, Pam, just when you were bringing the word authenticity back into it, I think too, there are always things that I’m realizing that I’m working on, always.  And right now, it’s with the self-awareness, I feel like in an intentional way, my reaction time is very slow at this point. I take my time. I sit with things, whether it’s decisions or things are happening. And so, yeah, my reactions are now very slow, they’re careful.

And so, I think for me, the figuring out right now, then is also that authenticity piece. So how do I show up as myself, and also give my kids and anybody else in my life, that space of non-judgment. So I’m not sure if that’s making sense, but it’s just a little bit of a piece that I’m sitting with right now. I think I’ve gotten pretty, I wouldn’t say I’m comfortable with it, but I’m committed to it.

Pretty comfortable being committed to leaving a lot of space, having that slow reaction time, leaving lots of room for the different things that my family members do, right? But the piece I’m still sitting with is how authentic am I being here? Or I’m still trying to figure out, where is the space for me?

And nobody is stopping me from being in there, but I’m still just figuring that out, right? Nobody’s pushing me back, it’s just me figuring it out for me. 

ERIKA: I think that makes a lot of sense, and it’s so interesting. It’s bringing up a lot of different thoughts for me, but really, everyone who’s on this type of journey, it makes sense that eventually we get to a place like what you’re describing, where it’s like, who am I really? How does that fit in, because our intention from the beginning and how a lot of us came to the journey was we wanted to give our children the space to be themselves.

And I think in many cases, that means we are taking a step back from asserting ourselves, in order to give them the space to really be true to themselves. And then it’s that pendulum swing that we talk about. But I’m still here, and what is the life that I want to lead look like in connection? And with all these new people coming into your life as well, it just gets more and more complicated.

But I just love that deep work. And I think it’s kind of unavoidable. Because we’re not okay with just pushing through our agenda. And I don’t care if you’re upset, that has never felt okay to me as a parent. And so I’m going to have to confront whatever the things are that come up for me, in order to be the parent and the person that I want to be in that relationship. And so learning about myself just has to happen along that journey. And I think it is so impactful.

ANNA: I think what stood out for me, there were a couple things, but that piece of, it is unavoidable.  I think if you’re really showing up with the intention to recognize how we’re showing up in those moments. And I think that’s so interesting, because that piece of thinking it’s hard. What I found was that the interactions with the kids weren’t hard, because they’re so authentic. It was that piece that when it’s bumping up, wait, wait, why is it bumping up? What’s happening? That means slowing myself down, then figuring out what is coming up in me.

And that was hard, because I had to look at where did that come from? Why is it impacting me in this moment? Why am I wanting to control or change this?

Because I think in some ways, maybe it is an easier path. I don’t know, kind of like you said, Pam, the back end’s hard, but it can feel easier to just push whatever the agenda is. But the big difference is exactly what you’re talking about, the self awareness, because you can’t really do that.

If you’re self aware, you can’t really push your agenda onto somebody else. If you’re thinking,  wait a minute, what’s happening here? I think that is a deep, rich part of the journey, and it’s amazing and ongoing.

ERIN:  Wait, this is not something that you learn one time, and then you’re done? And just if I could say one more thing on this question, just the amount that I’ve learned about myself from noticing or listening to my kids’ reactions to me or the way that they come with the question, is huge.

And just to give an example, I think I might have shared it in the Network, actually, a few years ago, but it was just around Christmas presents.

And one of my guys came to me with what felt like a very rehearsed sort of speech when you’re trying to launch a marketing thing forward. But anyway, he had this rehearsed set of reasons for his request. He knew he was getting a camera, he was starting to do some wildlife photography. And he had this really well rehearsed set of reasons that it would be great for him to have that camera before Christmas and open it before Christmas.

And he was really pleasant about it. But it was almost like, let me get this all out. I’m just going to explain to you where I’m coming from here. And I sat with it later. And I was like, wow, he put a lot of effort into something that was just about a Christmas present. Because it didn’t really matter that much to me.

But then when I peel back a little bit, because I said, that’s fine. But then I did kind of reflect about how I was feeling about it. And I thought, no, you know what, I think I have been more tradition-oriented around Christmas morning. And I think a lot of that too, was an aspect of his particular personality that maybe we had a bit of a rub where when he was a kid who wanted to know, what’s happening for my birthday? two months ahead. And so, there was always a bit of a need to slow down, you need to learn self control, like this kind of stuff, right. And so it just, yeah, it kind of made me peel back a little bit and think about, what are the signs that he’s seen of that through the years?

Or what are the things I’ve said or done? And it’s just a small, benign example. But I’ve had those things happen with probably more important things too, where I just go, okay, the fact that they’re asking it this way. Or the fact that this already went through my husband, who didn’t know about it. And something’s already been installed. That gives me a clue. 

We can kind of use these things to kind of get a clue about how we come across to other people. That reflection helps us learn so much about ourselves, like right to that self awareness. Our kids are lovely mirrors that way. I mean, it may not be fun in the moment or whatever.

But it really is so valuable and interesting, to just take a moment to look at what might that say about me and how I’m being in the world around them, etc. And it’s because it’s often something that I had never even thought of as a thing. It’s just a habit or just just a way.

But to be able to reflect and find those pieces and go, oh, that’s interesting. And just be more self aware, learn more about it. It doesn’t mean changing or anything. But more self awareness that we can bring to a moment. So very cool.

ERIKA: I love that story, they shine these little spotlights on our different things. We don’t even realize they are even a belief or whatever. And I love that. So my question to you, Erin, is what has changed over the course of your journey?

ERIN: Again, another big, big question. So I mean, obviously, lots of things have changed. I guess I’ll go back to myself again, because I think this is really the theme, right?

So much of it is about how we interact in these relationships. I think, well, probably one really obvious, well, it might not be obvious to somebody newer, but I think for lots of people, you quickly realize that your reasons, your ideas about learning and like, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And so I think what’s changed is that I think about things in a much broader way than just, learning to read or learning to I don’t know, what are all the things people worry about standing in line? All the things people get concerned about.

And so it just becomes so much broader than that. But then I think, to kind of bring it back to this theme of self awareness, I think what’s really changed is my willingness to put my kids first.  I don’t know, there’s something about advocacy, I think that’s coming up. I think I struggled for a long time to put my kids first in the face of, let’s say they were part of a club or lessons or something like that. And it’s not that I didn’t put them first, but I’ve become much, it’s become much easier for me. So I’m just thinking about everything from things that didn’t make sense in college residence to lessons my kids have done where something just kind of hits or rubs the wrong way.

And I think where I used to probably indirectly try to steer them toward it not being so big of a conflict, I’m much more comfortable now, just going and talking to somebody, or helping them.   I mean, they’re older now. So I’m not doing as much of that, but just even helping them with the language to go talk to somebody. I remember when I joined the network, maybe when I took the course, the Childhood Redefined, my kids were already getting older. My oldest guy was probably 20 at that time. 

But I think what I was noticing in myself is that there was this, we talked a lot about quitting and letting kids change their mind and do new things. And I didn’t have a problem with that in the way that a lot of people do. I saw the value in them trying different things. That wasn’t the issue for me. The issue was around not hurting the coaches feelings, or not causing conflict with another family that we were friends with, because they didn’t want to be doing the activity with them. 

For some people, that would be very simple. But for for me, it’s taken me a lot of work to do that kind of thing. So I think for me, it’s just how much more quickly I can be in my kid’s corner, in a really more concrete way than I used to be able to. 

I think I’ll just say one more thing about that, too. I think, as my kids got older, I realized that a lot of the people, if you think about naysayers, for example, with homeschooling and unschooling, those people don’t always stay in your life. Your neighbors move. We’ve had relatives actually pass away, a lot of the people that you’re hearing all these messages from, whether it’s quitting, or making sure to stick with a musical instrument, or all these different things. At the end of the day, it’s my child that I need to continue that relationship with.

ANNA: I love that piece. And I feel like what’s interesting about that is, I feel like our kids really lead the way, because all of us here have come through school, and often, more school and more school. And I think we’re culturally conditioned to think about those things, and to worry about those things, make sure we’re fitting in and make sure things are fine.

And I feel like my kids would have these really authentic reactions, recognizing that this environment doesn’t feel good, or I don’t like the way this is happening. And I remember reflecting when they were younger, that I had those thoughts as a kid, but I didn’t ever say them. Or there was nobody listening to me.

And so it was interesting to just really see that. And of course, like you’re saying, that’s the relationship that’s so important to me. But I remember having to consciously have that thought of – this is the person I care about.

I mean, now, 20 years later, I can’t even remember who those instructors are, or whatever but they’re not in my life. But my children are still in my life. But I remember having to consciously have that thought to reorient myself, because that cultural conditioning was so strong.

I just really identify with that one as well.

ERIKA: Yeah, the expectations, the external feeling of being judged or feeling that I wouldn’t have been allowed to just leave this activity. And so I don’t have any experience with how to have that more difficult conversation. How do you bring up things that are a little bit surprising to people in the mainstream, but I think when you have kids who are so used to being true to themselves, and listening to what works for them, there’s not really another option, we just are going to have to grow into being confident enough to do that.

And I feel like I’m still definitely in the middle of that journey. Because my kids haven’t really wanted to do that many activities and are kind of branching out more and more as they become teenagers. And so I’m being put into those positions now of, okay, this conversation feels hard to me.

But it is possible to have respectful interactions with the people at these lessons or whatever the things are, and still say, and we’re not going to continue. And that’s okay, we can make that choice.

PAM: Yeah, I found looking to my kids to be so useful. Because at first, I didn’t even realize how much work I did to fit in growing up.

It was just a given. This is school, this is your like, extracurricular activity, this is how we behave and what we do at these things. And I just wanted to do it right, right?

So, it wasn’t until my kids would be like, oh no, I want to quit. And same with you, Erin, it was pretty easy to quit the thing. But I was holding back, because at first, I could feel myself wanting to explain the broader picture and why. 

One of my childhood memories is trying to do that with my brother. I guess I was babysitting, and my parents had gone out and they said, he can go out and play once he’s finished cleaning his room. But he didn’t want to clean his room. And I’m sitting there in his room on his bed, like, just do it, it’ll take five minutes.

But oh my gosh, now I look back and go, wow. Wow, what a different mindset, that I could not  just stand up to that or push back at that age, because like Anna said, whether it was I wasn’t comfortable, or not being heard or listened to. I would just be told I was wrong, or the right way to do it, etc. So, for me, that was one of the big changes that was like the water I was swimming in that I didn’t even realize was water, you know what I mean? It was just part of my ethos. 

I remember it was quitting swimming when the kids first came home, it’s like, Oh, okay, we’ll go and blah, blah, blah. And after two lessons, they’re like, No, thank you. But I had all this justification going on in my head at first. Oh, but they’ve got lots of people to manage. That’s why you need to do it this way, you know.

But because I had started looking to my kids, and really, well, of course, this isn’t a good fit for them. Of course, I am now seeing them all day and how they move through the world. And recognizing that fit, or lack thereof, was now just so much more obvious.

But it’s been layer upon layer upon layer, from the quitting right through all these more intricate pieces that are part of our days, and still learning. Well, I think it’s part of where maybe that word authenticity comes back into it just, it does feel so relieving. So if there’s so much relief, and it does feel so much more authentic to just, just do what the kids are actually feeling rather than try to either control them or over explain to whoever else is involved in the situation. 

And I do think they have more practice with that. It’s always fascinating to me how I’ve thought about this before how our intention goes so far, because they often are able to do things that we are still struggle with. They often don’t have hang ups that we still have. But somehow, just our intention and then being in a different environment really makes quite a significant difference.

ANNA: It really does. Just being able to ask for what they need. I think that does come from the environments we created where we’re listening to everybody and where we’re trying to figure out the solutions that work. They go in, I don’t know, and some people, I think, feel like it’s naivete when they go into the world. But what I’ve seen is that they change things, right?

They have different conversations that we weren’t able to have, they change the environments that they go into. It’s empowering. And it’s really interesting.

I love that. So my question, which I think is also very big, is what still matters? What things have been kind of a through line for you, or things that you really feel like, yeah, that’s still important. That still matters to me.

ERIN: This one was actually the one that came to mind the easiest. And I think the through line is that relationship. Because that was from the first days of having a baby, that was what just stood out to me was just having this relationship and this connection. And I think understanding pretty early on, and I didn’t understand it until I had a baby, but realizing within the first couple of weeks that there was going to be a certain amount of that I would have to do differently than I had understood in order to have a relationship with this baby that I wanted to have. 

I was telling somebody a story the other day that very, very shortly before I had my first baby, I had been working with young kids. So, I’d often be in their homes, maybe three and four year olds. And quite a few of those families were large families, and they often had a baby or a toddler. And I would be in these houses. And over and over again, I’m seeing that the baby is sleeping in the parents room, or there’s a crib or there’s a cradle in the room. And I remember saying to a friend of mine, I don’t know what’s going on with these families. They all have these babies in their rooms.

And I just thought it was like the strangest thing. And then I had a baby. I understand this now.

And so it feels like maybe sleeping doesn’t have that much to do with this. But I think it’s where I started is just listening to that need, wanting, realizing that if I wanted to have that relationship, I needed to have that closeness, right. And so I think that of course, that follows through childhood.

And then I think, again, there’s been a lot of learning for me. These last few years of what that can look like, past 18, or past 20, or whatever. That when I say I want to have a relationship, I don’t mean that I want to be in more of a relationship than they want to be. It’s not about pushing myself into it, or not being able to let go or whatever.

But whatever that looks like with each of them, I want that to be respectful. And so I think that really has been the through line for me, even in those areas that I find more difficult, which would be conflict, or people pleasing, or I’m not exactly sure what the word is, but that’s definitely been trickier for me. But that’s the piece that helps me override it.

Even just the decision not to put them in school, it would have been so much easier for me, I would have had so many fewer people to argue, not argue with, but defend myself from if I had just put them in school. I could say that about any of that stuff, right, about attachment parenting, it’s not just the school piece. It is really that overriding, just determination to be in a respectful relationship that lets me jump over that last hump of hopefully doing what’s going to be in service to that relationship rather than please somebody else or not look weird, or any of those things. Because I’m past that. So I can rest in the weirdness now.

PAM: I will say I love just that focus on the relationship. And I remember one of the shifts for me, an aha moment that took a weight off. Because certainly my kids were in school for a while before I discovered homeschooling and unschooling. And I thought this is what we have to do. And it was so empowering when they came home. 

But okay, they’re not going to school, how do I replace that? What am I doing instead? Right? So, the shift to recognizing childhood does not just equal school, in whatever form, whether it’s homeschooling, or school school, to recognize that our relationships are lifelong. And that childhood is just a part of it. A lovely, lovely part of it. But our relationships last forever. And school is just kind of this blip, right, that may or may not be part of our lives. And the weight when I could just focus on the relationship, and that this is just a continuous thing. 

For those of us with kids as adults, there wasn’t a day where things shifted. Right? There wasn’t everybody waiting for this moment when we listened to some of our podcast episodes about the independence agenda and turning 18. Our relationships continued.

And like you’ve been saying this whole time, Erin, the self awareness, we continue to grow, we continue to change and develop and learn more about each other. And then when you’re mixing people in, that’s the relationship through line. It always has our focus. It’s not like I figured out relationships, and now I just do it. It’s forever learning, right?

ERIKA: I love, I mean, obviously, we talk a lot about that focus on relationships and how that’s a through line. And I think it’s interesting to think about how that really does lead to all the other aha moments that we have. If I am trying to be in a good relationship with my child, I’m going to listen to them. If I’m listening to them, I’m going to learn about the things that are important to them.

And then I’m not going to brush those off, I’m going to take it seriously and get involved in it with them. And so everything builds from there, as long as we keep coming back to how’s our relationship feeling? What is the thing that’s going to strengthen that relationship? And that leads us to people are different, it leads us to what is this bringing up for me? Why are my triggers different from their triggers? And all the learning comes from that. And for me, it was the same where it was like having the baby and being like, oh, you know, and just all the aha moments, all those like, this baby is not like me, I thought they would be like me, and they’re not. It’s just such an amazing journey. From that point.

ANNA: My path began with attachment parenting, too. And then we had this added layer of medical crisis at the beginning. The piece of that that I’m grateful for was it really honed us in on all that matters is this baby and this relationship. And all of that other stuff is just noise.

So, it did make it feel so much easier to make the decisions and to put school into perspective, to put these other things into perspective. Because that was the priority. It is hard to explain until you see it. I was around a lot of kids before having kids and did a lot of work with kids. But it is different. And the things you were talking about too, Erika, you really get a sense of, this is my child. And they’re very different. It’s not just these other kids that are different. Everyone is so unique, and all of these different brains.

That, to me, was part of the fun of it. That discovery and understanding, but that through line of the relationship has served me so much as well, because it’s just that North Star. It’s remembering to ask, how is what I’m doing going to impact the relationship? I think about that a lot. And it really helps me in making decisions along the way.

ERIN: Just something else that just came to mind for me about relationships, is the distinction between relationship and connection. Because I think I read a lot or hear a lot of people talking about connection, connecting with your kids. And I definitely think it’s important to connect with our kids. But I think the relationship is different, because it’s overarching. It takes time to  build a relationship with somebody. It takes situations and it takes experiences together.

And I think within that broader relationship, there are periods of time where we are more or less connected with a child, maybe a particular child or children. And I think sometimes that’s just a developmental stage, too. Something that they’re going through, or maybe, maybe it’s us, right? Maybe it’s something or our schedules just aren’t aligning in the same way.

So, I can look back through the years and see, almost eras of time that I was particularly connected with one or another. Maybe I had a really common interest. So we were doing a lot of this together. And I was maybe, not intentionally disconnected, but just the way things were going a little bit less connected with somebody else.

Or maybe through some of those like adolescent or teen years. I think the idea of kids needing to individuate to a degree, they need to figure out who they are, and who their identity is. So I do think sometimes in unschooling conversations, we can get a little bit overloaded with this, keeping connected, keeping connected. And sometimes kids, they float around, and maybe we do, too.

And so that’s been kind of fun to see that the relationship is still there. And I go through periods of time where I feel like there’s a real commonality or connection with a kid or two, and then maybe not so much, but it just comes around, I think, when you have that foundation.

ANNA: I liked how you said that. It reminds me when you spoke a little bit earlier about us with adult children, how it looks different, right? It’s not like we’re forcing this relationship on them but it’s there. And there are times where they’re off doing their thing. And we aren’t as connected with the day to day or the little nuances or intricacies. And then there’s times where it’s coming back. But I think, because we’ve had this through line of the relationship, there’s a foundation there that’s just very much built on trust that we can come back and that it isn’t a problem to come back and we can circle back and we can change those pieces.

So, I really love that, because that just really resonated with my experience, too, that the connecting moments are a part of it, but the relationship is much broader.

ERIN:. I think there are periods of time where we have as our kids get older, but maybe even when they’re younger, where the relationship is more about sharing what we’re each doing in separate places. And then there are periods of time where we might really be into a common activity or a common zone with somebody.

And those feel different to me, right? One feels like coming together and each person is sharing how this is going for me. And this is what I’ve been up to, versus, other times, we’re in a real common context with somebody.

PAM: I want to comment just because it’s bringing up so many metaphors, because we’re reflecting back, right? And ideas that have really resonated with me over the years, like one that I feel like ties in there, Erin, is thinking of ourselves as a family of individuals.

That phrase really resonated with me and reminded me that we have seasons. I loved your word, eras. Eras, seasons, where maybe they’re super busy with this thing and so using connection itself as just one measure can get you off course, because it’s like, oh, we’re not literally spending X amount of time each week doing something together. And how you define it, depends on how you define connection. 

And I love Anna, that you brought up trust instead, but relationship via another metaphor that really worked for me, works for me with relationship is thinking of it as a dance, the dance of a relationship, because I feel like sometimes someone’s leading, sometimes the other one is, sometimes you’re really connected, and you’re just moving together, because you’re doing things together, other times you are apart. And none of them are wrong. 

If somebody’s asking for more, and, and more could be, it could be more time, it could be more, shared activities, or it could be, especially with kids, it could be more money for an activity that they’re super into right now, that handing over some money, so they can do the thing can be a super connecting activity.

But again, it depends on how you define connection, right? So I do love just focusing, that it can help to focus more on the relationship and looking at it through that lens, rather than trying to track the time, or using that to define your connection with them, that especially over the years, seasons, eras, all those bits.

All right, our last question, Erin, and just to say, you have been part of the Living Joyfully Network for years, actually, from the beginning, and we absolutely love having you there, and I do think like, Anna, myself, you, we all have adult children now, and I do think some people wonder why we continue to stay connected with unschooling and parenting communities, even though our kids are now all adults, and we’re not technically homeschooling, unschooling, etc. So I was just curious to hear your thoughts about that, what is it that draws you to continue talking about this stuff?

ERIN: Okay, I think it’s probably a couple of different things, and first is a lot of the things we’ve talked about. I find listening to other people’s experiences and thinking about different scenarios continues to help me self-reflect. I’ll hear an experience or a story, and I’ll think, oh, what would that have brought up if that had been my child, or it’s not even just children, if that had been my spouse, how would I feel about that?

I just think that there is incredible power in people working together.  I think what it helps me get really clear about,there’s not like a set of rules, there’s not like a formula that we’re all trying to reach. It’s just putting it out there, getting perspectives. Sometimes people will circle back to something months later, so there’s just something that really makes sense for life, and I think that many people find this when they get to the point that their children are technically not school-age anymore.

We continue being in relationships, we continue learning, even that learning angle, continuing to be curious about things, and to continue going after things, and doing things that we enjoy. It just feels very inspiring to me, and so I think continuing to learn is a big part of it. 

And then I also think that you develop relationships with people, and  you want to see how people are doing, and how a particular child is doing. There was just a member that posted about a hockey piece, and I’m like, oh, I remember when he was just starting to get into that, and there’s just something really fun about that, to be able to see where people are going, and what their kids are up to. 

The other piece for me that I think was originally, when I started writing my blog, for example, which was before the network opened, I just really see the value in home education. Not even, it doesn’t even necessarily have to be unschooling, but just in home education, and creating more opportunities, and more awareness, and just more conversation about it. So, the more people that I experience, and get to know, the more I see how I think it could be different. And I think to circle back to the self-awareness piece, I think this offers our children an opportunity to be quite self-aware.

How different could the world be, if people were, it’s almost like living with more of an abundance mindset, rather than a scarcity mindset. And that’s a little bit unusual, I think. I just see a lot of stuff, people grappling for stuff all the time. And I wonder, how does this happen?

 And so, not that I think homeschooling is going to change the world, but, maybe a little bit. I feel like there could be some pieces there that, so I think I just, anything that I can do to be part of the conversation, or listen to other people, or share anything with other people, or just support things in ways that make sense, I just, I don’t know, it just feels like a good thing to be part of.

PAM: I agree very much. For me, it’s the inspiration piece. It’s the reminder to self-reflect, that’s important. And, for us, Anna and I talk a lot about relationships. And that just feels so powerful. And we were talking earlier about how these relationships are lifelong, right?

You’re talking about how homeschooling can change the world. I feel like relationships with children, authentic, actually respectful with agency, all those aspects of it, just make a world of difference in our relationship, in their lives, in our lives. And just having conversations with people about that, and the light bulb moments, yes, for them. But also, every time I try to share a story, or try to explain a thought, or an idea, I learn it a little bit deeper, right? There’s another layer of that infinite onion that maybe comes off. And again, more self-awareness.

Like we were saying, we’re growing and changing all the time. I find it so valuable to keep thinking about these ideas, and participating, and chatting with people who are curious about them. And with people who have been doing it for such a long time, and finding where we have common experiences, and finding those pieces that are unique to me. Back to the self-awareness piece, right? It’s fascinating and fun.

ERIKA: I feel like maybe going through school, we get a message of you’re just with this age group, and then that’s over, and then there’s this adult life. So, I think over this journey, we come to realize, we’re all just on this same journey, it’s all the same, it’s all life. And so there is no sense that I get in the network that someone with younger kids is the beginner, and the people with older kids are the experts. Because it just doesn’t work like that. The areas where I’m growing, I’m able to get feedback, inspiration, and information from other people.

And then things that I have already moved through, I’m able to share those experiences with other people. When we focus on relationships, and when we realize that life is just all learning all the way, we don’t stop learning. It just doesn’t make sense to leave, because it still is giving so much, wherever we are along our journey, or wherever we are with our kids, there’s just still so much to learn and to think about. I had another thought, but it is gone.

ANNA: If it comes back, then bring it up. But I’ll say, I feel like you hit on the two big ones for me too, Erin. That lifelong learning piece. I still learn so much every day from the network. Again, watching somebody move through a situation and wondering how that would land for me.

It’s feeling myself get activated when I read something and then go, okay, where’s that coming from, bringing some self awareness in there. I like those opportunities. I think being around a community of people who are intentional about and like to talk about the nuances is just so fun for me. 

And I think for me, the other piece is kind of an advocacy piece. For me, it’s like you were saying, Pam, it’s about relationships. But I really have strong feelings about just how amazing kids are. And I love celebrating the hockey game and seeing them grow up because I get so invested in all the kids on the network.

But it’s also just knowing, it can be so much easier if we’re just communicating. We have new people that come in that have come from hard situations of burnout and other things. And then watching them just open to life feeling so beautiful, almost like, how can it be this great?! Yes, it can be that great. So there’s that kind of advocacy piece there of just wanting people to have that amazing feeling for this special time.

Because like you said earlier, Pam, I mean, childhood really is just a blip on the whole thing. And it does go so quickly. So, those are kind of the big pieces for me, but always, always learning for sure.

ERIN: Yeah, I feel like I need a little bit of a caveat just around the idea of homeschooling changing the world, because I know that not all homeschooling has been great for some people, and sometimes school does work really well. And it is a choice that people want to make. But I think just like you’re saying there, Anna, it’s just so exciting to be able to be part of seeing kids be who they are able to learn in the way that’s best for them and explore the different interests that they have. And yeah, so it’s whatever form that takes for people, but just having that kind of broadness and that choice. 

ANNA: I agree! So many people still don’t know what’s an option, though. So I think it is an important piece, putting it out there. Just saying it can be possible. We like to talk about options and all that’s there. And I’m amazed that there really still are people that don’t have any understanding of home education and certainly not unschooling.

And so, yeah, I think that’s super valid. It’s not about that there’s one path, but gosh, here it is. And take a look, because even just understanding it allows you to bring a different energy, even if you stay in school, just understanding that there are options, understanding that there’s not the one right path just brings a different energy to all of those exchanges.

So yeah, I really do agree with that.

ERIKA: I remembered my last bit. I feel like life outside, if you look at the world as a whole, there’s a lot of stress. And I feel like I can get really overwhelmed with bad things or, it feels like there’s so much bad. And so to me, being connected to people in the network reminds me of these good things. It brings me back and grounds me back into what’s really important, like giving these kids space to be themselves.

It’s having these relationships and connections. And I think having it be  global also, just gives me this kind of peaceful feeling. There are ripples coming out from all of these families and all of these intentional people, really putting in this work and trying to make the world a better place. And I know, for me personally, in my local community, I have seen my own ripples change things for people. And then I see it in all the other network members. That’s just a really cool thing about being in connection with people like that.

PAM: Yeah, I think it is. It is so fun and enlightening and inspiring. And I mean, can go on for another 20 minutes. But that piece that I find so interesting, because I think often, homeschooling is really a great place to meet people. Because kids going to school can be where the first big problems start to show up, right? If the classroom at school just doesn’t mesh with your child, it’s not a good fit for them.

And that’s a big time when we can start questioning things and trying to figure this out and trying to fit in all those pieces that come up and that can be kind of our first exposure to other paths. That is what happened for me and that is how I finally, eventually, discovered that homeschooling was a thing and that it was legal in Canada. And that was the start of my journey. And then, as we’ve been talking about this whole episode, learning and discovering the value of relationships, we see the journey happening with people in the network all the time.

But when you are cultivating those stronger relationships and really respecting your child’s agency, and their choices and understanding them and their perspective, and I think then you can loop back there, definitely we have members who have a child or two that choose to go to school for a while or for a longer period of time. Because, as we were talking about earlier, school just becomes part of the landscape. That is a possible choice for someone.

It doesn’t affect our relationships, right? We can support them in that choice and in that exploration if they want to do that.Homeschooling is a beautiful door. I feel to bring people in,  a reason to notice that something is up. And maybe I want to explore some different possibilities other than this one path that I know. Right? 

And it’s just so fascinating for me to see over and over again, people coming and learning that bigger picture, that focus on relationships, really embracing, working together and living together as this family of individuals that we are. And then all these other choices come home and they don’t feel so confronting or judgmental or any of those pieces. It’s like, oh, yeah, okay, we can see how that fits in and that fits in. And it’s just so very beautiful.

All right, well, thank you so much, Erin, for joining us and sharing your reflections. I know it has been a deep, big month as we look back on all this, so we super appreciate you tackling these big questions with us.

ERIN: I just need to say thank you for inviting me. It was really nice. It was an honor to chat with you all again. So thank you.

PAM: Oh, it was so fun. So fun. Thank you.

And we want to say thank you to everybody listening, whether you’re listening in your podcast feed or watching on YouTube. We appreciate you joining us too. And we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.

We offer a free month trial so you can just check it out and see if it’s a good fit for you. It is a great place to take the concepts that we talked about today and in the other 400-odd episodes and to dive deeper, exploring. To me, this is the difference.

With the podcast and these conversations, they really help more with my intellectual understanding. But I remember I was deep into forums and email lists at the time when I first discovered this. But it’s so helpful to have conversations to better figure out what it looks like day-to-day in your unique family. And to just see how many different unique families all over the world are making it work for themselves. There’s no one right way. There’s no one way that it’s supposed to look. 

So those are the kind of conversations we love having. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to our website livingjoyfully.ca and you’ll see Network up in the top menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day.

Thanks again, Erin.

The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.

In Part 3 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what still matters over the course of the past 10 years. We talked about focusing on relationships, how there is no one path and no one right way, and how children are whole and capable people right now, not just adults in training.

We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia. Hello! 

I have really been enjoying this series reflecting back on 10 years of the podcast. So much has changed and yet the growth and learning continues. The podcast has been important to so many people and it’s always fun to hear how it’s touched them and many times changed the trajectory of their family. Similarly, the podcast has brought many amazing people to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

It’s such a great place to take the concepts covered in the podcast and dive deeper, to be a part of the conversation. We love that. All three of us are active participants and we’re responding to questions, hosting calls, sharing our journey, learning and growing alongside all of the amazing families there and we would absolutely love for you to join us.

You can find out more information in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining. And we also have a free trial month, so you can check it out that way as well. 

This week, the question that we’re going to be reflecting on is what still matters? And so Erika, would you like to get us started? 

ERIKA: I would. When thinking about what still matters, I felt like we have to start with relationships. It’s something that I’ve heard you both say from the very beginning. Focus on our relationships with our children because when we start there, everything else falls into place.

If we make independence our focus or academic skills our focus, we lose sight of the unique child in front of us and our relationships can be harmed. When I first came to unschooling, I was pretty preoccupied with the idea of passing skills along to my kids. It just seemed like that would be my most important role, especially since we weren’t putting them into school.

Like how will they get by as functioning adults without these skills? And so I had this desire to make sure they weren’t “falling behind” or that they would be keeping up with the kids who had gone to school. I think it’s a common fear when we’re choosing an alternative path.

But through time and observation, I really have come to believe that we can’t force people to learn anything. And I could see that putting that agenda onto my kids and pushing them to pay attention to this certain thing or pushing them to independently do something that they’re not ready to do. It just caused them to push back against me and that affected our relationship.

And so the work that I do now as a parent has so much more to do with our relationship than anything else, which I think would have surprised younger me. That cultural idea that we have to mold our children into who they should be. But it’s just not about that at all for me anymore.

It’s more about the things we talk about here, like building trust with them by being trustworthy, leaving space for them to learn in their own way, being accountable and making repairs with them if we have any kind of a rift and really being curious about who they are in the moment as unique individuals. And learning facts and skills can come when it’s time. I’ve seen that happen over and over.

I may worry, if someone’s not reading yet or they’re not interested in learning how to tell time. That was a real one for me. Or to tie their shoes. But our children will come across all the things that are the most important to learn because they’re actually important in their lives. And every brain is different. Every person has their own path and those skills come.

Sometimes it even feels kind of magical, but it doesn’t happen by force, at least not with my kids. Learning happens when the context is right and their desire is there. And so by focusing instead on our relationships, we create a space for them to process with us when things come up. We let them know that we’re there for them no matter what. There’s not this expectation that their lives look a certain way. We support them as who they are in each moment.

And I see that focus on that relationship pay off when my teens now come to me to process their fears or their goals or their relationship struggles or anything else. They know that I don’t have this image in mind of them that they’re not living up to. They know that we are all just humans learning, growing on our own paths, but we’re in relationship together.

And I think that the skills they learn doing that are actually so much more valuable than the academic skills. Those relationship skills and the communication skills will serve them for the rest of their lives. So I try to think to myself, as I remember Anna saying so many times, is what I’m about to do going to help my relationship with my child or harm it?

And making the relationship-strengthening choices over and over pays off. It’s like a good north star for me to aim towards. And of course, not perfectly, since that’s not possible, as I’ve talked about before.

PAM: Oh, I love that so much! And you know what, I love how over these three episodes as we’ve been reflecting back through various questions, how much relationships bubble up as part of the things that we’ve learned. Things that have shifted for us and that’s what really still matters. Because that fundamentally, like you said Erika, the learning happens.

The skills and the facts happen. An early realization for me was, well, if they don’t come across it in their life to want to learn it then it wouldn’t have been helpful to have tried to force them to learn it because they wouldn’t have come across a need to know it anyway. So, it was like that little gameplay shift for me. It is okay.

And then number two, just looking back on my own journey, what do I remember of what I learned and aced on the test. And now it’s only when I need it, I will learn that little piece. I’ll brush up again, learning it in the moment. It’s fundamentally stronger as in it makes more of a connection because that’s where I’m learning what I need. That web of learning that you mentioned in an earlier episode, Erika.

That is how the relationship just became fundamental, because that was so much more supportive of our lives and that interdependence of living together. And if I focus there, everything else kind of like takes care of itself. And in that way, people make choices and we help them. And when I focus on the relationship, it puts my energy in the places that matter the most long-term, even now with all my kids as adults. 

ANNA: Yeah. I think what I love about this choice that you made, Erika, about what still matters is the relationship because, I don’t know how to say it because that’s what actually matters years later. Not just when we have kids at home, but when our kids are adults and what kind of relationships we want then.  

We have a lot in our culture happening now about people going no contact and not being in touch with their families. And as someone who works with families and adults and their parents, it’s like, oh, that doesn’t happen there, when they are all adults. That doesn’t happen in isolation, over one or two events. That happens over years of not being heard or listened to. And I know these parents, because I’m working with them too. These adult parents that are now in their sixties to eighties, they were doing what they thought was best. They were trying to make sure their kids would be independent adults. They were trying to help them. But it caused harm.

They didn’t have these nuanced discussions that we’re able to have in a community of people who are picking apart these ideas. And I think, oh, that’s such a big difference in this lifestyle. Pam and I both have adult children, Erika’s kids are teenagers, but ours are well into their adulthood and we still enjoy each other. We still want to hang out and we still get the calls and we still do the processing and we are still a part of each other’s lives in different ways.

It looks different for all the different kids that we have because they all have different personalities, but it’s there, that foundation, that attending to the relationship for all those years. We’re still doing it, and it still has so much meaning in our lives. 

There’s just something about that. That’s really poetic and beautiful when you think about this life and these choices.

PAM: Yes, I love that. And I think it leads nicely into what I wanted to talk about here. And that’s the paradigm shifting idea that children are whole and capable people right now, not like adults in training.

Then this was one of my earliest paradigm shifts on the journey. And I do think it still matters, so, so much.

And this idea brings together so many pieces that we’ve been talking about this month. When people first hear this, I feel like they often discount it, right? No, children aren’t whole, children aren’t capable.

I can just hear and some people have said, there’s just so much about life that kids don’t know. Or they can’t feed and clothe themselves. They couldn’t live on their own, that whole independence agenda. So, that’s the picture, right?

They need to train to be an adult, right? I can’t help but think about how that whole agenda just comes in there. And we seem to constantly be looking at children, I think, and just comparing them to adults. Seeing all those missing bits, that must mean they aren’t whole, that must mean they aren’t capable. But this was a piece that really locked into place for me. They are not adults, right?

They are whole and capable of being the two-year-old that they are, the eight-year-old, the 15-year-old. And in my experience, our worlds absolutely are forever changed when we can take off those adult tinted glasses and join them as who they are in this moment, right? So when we can do that, we start to see these whole children as our guides.

We start to see them making choices that make so much sense when we look at that through their eyes. They always made sense, but now with our clearer vision, we’re seeing it. It’s like, oh, I never understood why they did that. I thought I had to fix that. I kept trying to tell them to do it this other way. But when we can take off that lens and just start looking at them, we see those choices.

We see glimpses of how capable they are of understanding themselves, of saying no for reasons that make sense to them. And even seeing us and sensing our energy, I think that’s something that is kind of a surprise for us as we start noticing how much our kids can be impacted by our energy. And they can sense that and incorporate that.

They are capable of seeing, understanding, and incorporating that. And spoiler alert, in my experience, we soon find that we don’t even need that age distinction. I think that can be part of the journey, helping to see, oh yeah, they’re two-years-old.

But then it’s not like what can your two-year-old do? Or what should your two-year-old be able to do? What should your eight-year-old know? You realize that, oh yeah, that again has really no value. It’s really, who is this person? What do they want to be doing? What are their interests? That becomes the lens. It just really helps us recognize that they are whole and capable human beings right now, full stop, at any and every age.

And then, you always want to remember that doesn’t mean that they’re always happy and easygoing. It means that they’re living a rich and meaningful human life. There are always ups and downs and frustrations and hard things.

And so often people, well, if they get to choose what they do, they’ll never choose to do hard things. How will they learn? All those pieces that you start to recognize when you’re watching your own kids that, oh, that’s not true.

We really will choose to do the things we want to do, even if they’re challenging, even if they’re frustrating. And I think this also is when we really start to fundamentally understand in our bones that people are different, as we’ve talked about in the last episode. Because that’s the next lens, I think, that we can remove after our adult-tinted ones come off.

The one that has us viewing their choices and behavior through the lens of what we would do in similar circumstances. Okay, so yes, we keep going and going because it’s all connected. It’s all woven together. But I think you can see why I think this idea about children and being in relationship with them still really matters all these years.

ANNA: Yes, I thought they were very nicely connected. Very nicely connected and definitely still matters. And I love that age piece that you pulled out, how that falls away, because it’s kind of ridiculous.

And yet you could do it in the same way with “adults”, well, you’re 30, so you should do this. You’re 45, you should know how to do this. But it’s like, who’s that person? And so I love when we can just let all of those external pieces fade away and just look at the person in front of us. What excites them? What lights them up? What do they want to do? What do they find hard? What do they want help with? What do they need? 

I think when you, like you’re saying, take off those glasses, because I don’t know that we see them in all of their beauty and complexity when we have on those lenses that are trying to put them in a box.

It’s like okay, have they done this? Have they checked this? Are they doing this? Are they going to do that? Are they going to know how to do this? Again, all those things are designed to separate us. But gosh, when you just, my vision is just like being on the floor to just be with those kids and just watch the way their brains work. And I get so lit up on the network when people are talking about their kids. Anyone on the network will know, I get so excited about all the kids.

And I just love them all so much because we have this wide range of just amazing kids that say the most incredible things. And that’s because somebody’s listening, right? It’s like these parents are listening and then bringing it to us with these incredible ideas and stories that they share.

And Erika has teens right now who are just deep and feeling things and thinking about hard ideas and all of these pieces. And it’s like, gosh, we can miss that. If we just have that adult lens on and we’re trying to put them into boxes.

And so, absolutely one of the gifts of this life is really that understanding that they are just full, capable human beings in front of us from the start. I love that, Pam.

ERIKA: Oh, I love it so much. It was making me think of a couple of things.

One was my experience being a child. I do have memories of being a young child and my mind was rich and deep and I had all sorts of understandings about the world and about how people should treat each other. And I had my convictions and it was not like me at five was a blank slate ready to just learn from the adults around me. I knew a lot even then and, and I just can picture what my mind has felt like every step of the way and every step of the way it’s me. It was me then and it’s me now.

And so I don’t think there’s any sort of magic in becoming an adult. I think that if we can realize that our children are whole from the very beginning and that they know who they are from the very beginning, it’s just, it’s so much richer. And then I also think that if we’re viewing everything in that adult lens of  when you’re allowed to do things or when you will be able to do things or when you mature enough. Or telling them these things you’re thinking about now are just nonsense and not important. It leads to this cultural feeling for the kids of, I just can’t wait to be an adult so that I could finally do what I want to do. 

I remember that feeling in school of like, we’re just waiting. School was just waiting to be done and to finally get to live our lives and finally be an adult who gets to make choices. 

And so I just love that we can question that with our families and just be like, you know what, you’re a human right now, you are a person. And our culture is set up to not allow them access to every single thing at that age. But having a parent who takes them seriously and listens to their thoughts and ideas just from the beginning, I think it just creates such a different experience for them growing up.

ANNA: Right. I mean, there’s so much that we can facilitate. I do think and will stand by that I think that kids are the most marginalized group in the world. They’re the largest group that is marginalized in that way.

And I think it’s so powerful to know they do have this inside of them and they do know and with agency can make these amazing decisions. And so because of the way our culture is set up, that does put us in that role of facilitating to help them do that. 

I love how you shared with me before, Erika, these insights you’ve had from being very young. I don’t have a ton of memories from childhood. And so I’m fascinated by them when we’ve talked about them, because you had such a clear vision of how you were feeling and thinking. And I’m like, yes, intuitively, I know this and could see it in my own kids, but it was really cool to talk to you about those pieces.

I do have one memory from middle school. I remember things were really hard and it was just, middle school was very tough. And I remember just thinking, I’m going to become an adult and I’m going to spend the rest of my life advocating for children.  I remember that thought so, so clearly.

And honestly, it has driven me ever since. And that is why I’m still doing the work that I’m doing because children have so much to say and they’re just amazing. And anyway, so yeah, I just, I love that.

But so, I’m going to go on to mine and what I’m going to talk about is something that I think can both be exciting and it can also infuriate people. And, and we’ve touched on it a little bit over the month, but it’s that there’s no one right way. There’s no perfect path.

There’s no one size fits all. And I think when people are first looking at unschooling, they do want the playbook, right? They wonder, what should I do? How do I do this right? And I’m going to be the best unschooler. That’s what I want to do.

And it makes sense. These were the type of questions school encouraged us to focus on. There was an answer, the answer, and we needed to get the answer. And often even show that our work to get the answer was the same, which is insane to me. They do not understand people are different. That’s how we succeed in that environment though.

So, at first it can feel a little scary to hear that there isn’t an answer and that there isn’t one path, but the flip side of that is it can be so liberating and sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly it clicks and it just all makes sense. 

Last week when we talked about ‘people are different’, that’s really the root of why there isn’t one path. We’re all so different, how we learn, how we want to engage in the world, what we prioritize, what lights us up.

It’s all so unique to who we are and it adds this amazing color to our personal journey. But within that, it can be really beautiful to share the journey with people who are intentional about their relationships, who value connection above product, who are curious and know deep down there are these other paths that we can take. That feels really energizing to me.

And as Pam mentioned at the beginning of the month, we do not come here as experts with the answer. We don’t believe there is an answer. We are fellow explorers who enjoy teasing out the nuances and asking the tough questions of ourselves, of others, of the world. Growing beyond old patterns and expectations.

And I think those are just a few of the things waiting for people when they step off that treadmill of the one right way that our culture can present and they start to dig a little bit deeper. I feel like that’s one cool side effect of choosing this path. We’ve talked about it before as the window. People may come to it as an alternative to school because maybe school isn’t working for their child in this moment.

But this whole world of questioning and exploration has opened up all the things we thought of as a given or a ‘have to’ come into question. And the thing is, we may choose to hold on to some of them and we may let others go, but the difference is coming from a place of choice. Everything is a choice.

And what’s interesting is that was one of the first essays that I wrote. Gosh, it’s probably been 20 years ago, but it was called, “Everything is a Choice” and it can also ruffle some feathers. But I find it to be the most empowering understanding because we always have a choice. There isn’t one way to do anything. And we can choose how we move through these different situations, whether it’s just the energy we bring to it or the actual choices that we’re making.

And so I’m feeling like I could go off on a tangent here about so many like black and white ideas that don’t serve us. So, I’m going to stop. But the idea that there isn’t one right way is really the cornerstone of the work that the three of us do together and the environment that we’ve cultivated on the network. So, I feel like this is one that still matters and will always matter.

PAM: Yeah, so much like there is not one right way. And it is so hard for people wrap their head around it. And it does it weave into ‘people are different’ so closely. I like to add on the end, there’s a right way for you. 

ANNA: Yes, there’s a right way for me, in this moment.

PAM: That’s exactly where I was going, right now. Because that can change over time, too. It’s all about me. Right? And how am I in this moment? What am I wanting to put on my plate? What choices do I want to make? And in this context of everybody around me, of my own capacity, mood, how tired am I?

All the things will go into the choice that I make. And yeah, I remember early conversations about that. What do you mean everything is a choice? Like, I don’t have a choice about this and this and that. It’s just fascinating to think about and absolutely that completely still matters.

It’s just such a huge paradigm shift and bringing it into your days. No matter the age of anyone involved, it just brings the choice back to ourselves.

ERIKA: Yeah. Beautiful. I do think it is so personality driven, too. I think some people have a much easier time with this concept than others. And I feel like when I notice myself thinking, well, that’s not right. It’s just fun then now to be like, what do I mean by that?

What do I think is right? And so, yeah, it’s one of those exploding my brain kind of realizations that’s happened along the unschooling journey. But I feel like if we follow the whole thread of a choice and then the result and all of that, we may have a belief culturally that if we did choose correctly, then we are guaranteed a certain result.

And so realizing through observation that is not in any way true, it then releases some of the pressure around all of those earlier choices. Just because I did what society said was correct on steps ABC doesn’t mean I’m going to get to that end result of D that that they’re promising. And I think, after I was in school, I also spent a brief time teaching in school.

And I think when I was teaching high school was one of the times when I realized this promise that they’ve made to these children is not a real thing. I think it’s really doing a disservice to young people to say, if you do this, this, this, I mean, it’s the longest list of expectations. If you do all of this, then you will be successful.

And that’s just not how life works. And so let’s just take the pressure off of those choices and realize that there isn’t a way to guarantee any kind of result. And why not try to aim for a result that fits us better, rather than just trying to be on this kind of straight and narrow path that they say will get us to our destination.

And so if we observe the world and all the people in it, we can see there are so many different ways to live a good life. And there’s so many different paths that can get you to where you’re going. And so, it’s all about ‘people are different’.

It’s all about there’s no one right way. I love thinking about these things.

PAM: And bringing the mistakes that we’ve been talking about this month, your path can change your destination. That’s the other super cool thing. I’ve taken like three more steps, my own personal ABC, and now E is looking a little off. I don’t want to go in that direction. I want E minus or something, right? And that’s totally okay, that I’m learning a little bit more each time.

And just moving through life that way, rather than on a set path. And then, even people who have taken the path and ended up where society said, Oh, you’ve made it. And then they’re like, is this even where I want to be? You know what I mean? 

There’s just so much to consider and it really is that one right path really just isn’t a useful measure or direction to take, because it really just doesn’t align with who we are even if we take it and it works perfectly, it may not feel good. 

ANNA:  I really love that piece you said that it’s a disservice. Really it is a disservice to all of these amazing capable children that are trying to then grow and figure out what they want to do with their lives because there isn’t one path. 

There’s this other thought that I had about that. I think we’ve all been there. I was not a teacher, but I’ve been around the kids a lot in my life, and at some point we’ve all heard or thought, why do I have to learn this? What is the purpose of this? They’re asking those questions and are systematically shut down. And those are fair questions.

Why do I need to be doing this? What is the purpose? I remember asking those questions because that’s just how my brain works. And would just be told, but you’re going to get this thing. If you keep doing this thing that makes no sense to you now, then you’re going to get this other thing. And that’s not how it happened.

And even David did all the things on paper, it looked a lot like that, he did this, did the thing, got the degree, got the job in the degree, did all of it. It served a purpose. And then he realized, this is not where I want to be.

I just wish we could have more conversations with kids, unschooled or not unschooled, just so they could just hear more about the millions of different ways there are to be in the world and to be a quote, success, to live a life that feels rich and enjoyable and sustainable. I think those are the conversations that we’re missing in our culture because we’re so attached to that one right path.

I think that’s why letting go of this one right path piece is so huge. And you just see people really lighting up because they realized that pursuit of the one right path didn’t serve them either.

ERIKA: Yeah. And maybe talking to successful adults about what are the things that make you happy and see if it’s the job or if it’s something totally different, which I would imagine it probably is.

PAM: And that reminds me, the one right path, I think, became real challenging. It was a recent month in the network. And we’ve been talking about putting everything on the table, right?

It can feel so scary up front, to offer even the possibility that there are other paths, right, that there are other possibilities, that there are other choices. Scary to even open up the conversation to creative ways one might make things work. It can feel so challenging. I was just struck by what you said, Anna, about opening up this conversation, whether or not kids are in school, right, to actually take the time to talk about the possibilities, to talk about how people are feeling about what choices or what’s even just going on in their life right now.

And it goes back to the kids are capable. Kids are capable of so much. You don’t just have to tell them to just follow this path. Kids are capable of understanding, and often expressing what’s not working for them about the thing.

And just opening up those conversations, even in the networks I’m listening to. I actually opened up a conversation and was uncomfortable about it. Because I really wanted it to work out this way. But then I learned so much.

And we made it so much better for them as well. Just opening up the conversation can feel hard, because you feel like you might be opening yourself up to having to defend but no, really, your mind is being opened.

So often, there are so many possibilities that are workable, but we don’t see when we’re just looking at that one path, right?

ANNA: Right! Okay, one last thing. And then I know we’re going over, but it’s just what you just said really sparked something. I think it is scary for people to put everything on the table.  Because what if we tell kids, there’s all these options, and they don’t make “the” choice. But some of them will still make that choice, but they will do it out of a choice. They’ll be like, this is what I want to do.

And they will be successful on that path in whatever that looks like for them, because they want to be here. But then the kids that want to choose differently are going to find their unique path that fills them. And for me, I’ve always said this, our world is so much better served by people choosing the path that they want and living in alignment in that way.

Because then we get the rich skills and all of the different brains coming at it in a way that just is so much richer than forcing people. So that if you don’t fit on that path, but yet there you are, you feel bad about yourself, right? You’re questioning, why am I not okay? Why is this not working? This is the path. Why does it feel so bad? This is what I’m supposed to be doing.

Instead, that person may be an artist that’s supposed to be over here changing the world in this other way. And we lose that, we lose those colors, we lose that richness. So, now I’m excited about how I can make sure we’re all having this conversation?

PAM: Yes, I think it’s so, so important. Me too. Me too.

ANNA: I just want to thank you both so much. I feel like these reflections and just sharing these last few episodes, thinking about these last 10 years, and all of our journeys has just been so rich, and has felt important to me. So I hope that other people enjoyed it as well.

And to everyone who’s listening or watching, I just really appreciate you joining us for these conversations. We really have such a good time. And we do invite you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

As we mentioned in the last episodes, we have a free trial month, so you can check it out. I think that you’ll see that these are the conversations that we enjoy. It’s okay to be a lurker to just kind of check it out.

We have a lot of resources you can dig into if you have questions about this lifestyle and the different pieces about it and what it can look like in your family. And we also love the conversation. It’s just a really fun place.

I do hope you’ll check it out. And you can learn more about that by clicking on the link in the show notes or going to our website livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Thank you both so much and just wishing everyone a beautiful day.

Bye. 

Bye.

The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.

In Part 2 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what’s changed in the past 10 years. We talked about how unschooling is more like a branch of the tree rather than the roots, how the realization of the many, many ways that people are different has influenced our work, and how unschooling is really our journey and our work to do as parents.

We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone, I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both!

So, today we’re continuing our series of episodes reflecting on the 10-year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast.

I know the podcast has been so influential to so many people, as it has been for me on my unschooling journey. And recently what has really deepened my understanding and learning and enriched my life in countless ways is the Living Joyfully Network. Our community of parents on Mighty Networks is a wonderful place to explore all of the questions and aha moments that come up on this journey.

I love our live conversations and our monthly topics to consider and I’ve made so many amazing friends. Every day I feel both inspired and calmed by the network. The topics we dive into inspire me to look closer and grow as a person. When everyone shares their unique experiences, I just feel grounded in knowing that we’re doing this together.

It really is an amazing space and we’d love for you to join us. You can find the link in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining and our new free trial month offer. So in this episode we’re going to be reflecting on the question, what has changed?

And as Pam said last time, 10 years is a good chunk of time and we’ve all definitely grown and changed during that time so I’m excited for this discussion. Would you like to get us started, Pam? 

PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. When I started this podcast 10 years ago, my work was pretty much focused on unschooling, around exploring the choice to go to school or not go to school. Back when I realized that was even a choice and quickly found unschooling, it felt like a fundamental or a foundational choice in our life. I mean culturally school was and mostly still is so integrally woven into childhood that it seems that school is the most important aspect of childhood.

Everything else is extracurricular activities, right? It’s right there in the language. So what’s changed for me over the last decade is that I now see unschooling as a branch of the tree of childhood and not the roots.

For me, what lives in the roots and truly redefines childhood is cultivating connected and supportive relationships with our kids and giving them agency over their lives. Not as in leaving them to their own devices or insisting that they make all their decisions but living consensually as a family as you talked about in the last episode, Anna. How they feel and what they think matters.

We all have value regardless of age, right? And they may or may not want school to be part of their lives. It’s just a question. It’s not the fundamental question of childhood or it doesn’t have to be. And that answer may well change over time.  School is a choice alongside the many other choices in their lives.

So that said, unschooling can be a great window into this way of being in relationship with our kids. And I think because it’s often the first place that real conflict can arise, like when a kid and the school classroom environment just don’t mix well. And that was definitely my path but it’s certainly not the only path to discovering the far-reaching and lifelong impact of just cultivating those connected relationships with our kids, right? There’s where the rich soil is.

ANNA: I know. It’s so interesting because you know I love a tree analogy. But it’s funny because in the early days, for me, I actually saw consensual living as the umbrella and unschooling was one choice under that umbrella. That’s the piece that you’re getting at.

It’s like unschooling is one choice when we’re living consensually. We have children making autonomous decisions and having agency about how they want to spend their time, how they want to engage in the world, how we want to do that together as a family. And so I really love that distinction and I do think it evolved really for all of us. I think especially for you, Pam, because you came from school to unschooling. It’s a little bit different for Erika and I. We have always unschooled with our kids. So I think that’s why maybe for me, I had that different view of it earlier on.

But I think it’s critical because, you’re right, I think it’s that first touch point that people come to, this flashpoint with school. It can be so intense and you kind of feel like you’re losing your child or their light is dimming and it feels scary. And so unschooling can be this beautiful door to walk through to realize that there are different ways. But yeah, I think once you’re there and realize, oh, it’s actually about the connection, it’s actually about the relationship we have.

And then together, we can make the choices that best serve us, whatever that looks like. And, and of course, I love unschooling, we all do here. But but yeah, I really love putting it in that place. It’s the relationships that are so important. 

ERIKA: It reminds me of my perfection piece from the last one, because I remember when I first found unschooling, it’s like, well, if you are putting your kids in school, then you’re not unschooling. It was all connected. It’s like you have to make that decision in order to be doing it right, because I was looking for how to do it right.

And so it really has been a journey, a mindset journey to get to the place of realizing it’s not about school. It’s not about any one particular choice that may or may not look mainstream. It’s about what the child wants. What is the relationship with the child feeling like? And so I think unschooling kind of answers one problem, which is, the child is hating school. And so unschooling is a way to respect their autonomy in that way. And then a whole bunch of other possibilities open up.

But we’ve seen so many amazing families with these amazing connected relationships deciding to go to school. And that doesn’t change that core value and that root of what is amazing about their families, which is listening to each other, making sure that we’re not pushing past someone else’s consent. It’s very eye-opening to get to that place where it really is not about school. It’s not about that decision. It’s about something deeper than that.

PAM: Something deeper, so much more. And yes, we have episodes on the podcast where I talked to parents whose kids have gone to school and so much doesn’t need to change. You don’t all of a sudden have to become a different kind of parent or have a different kind of relationship, just because school happens to be in the picture.

But yes, it definitely takes that mindset shift, right? To recognize, it’s not like one life I’m unschooling or I’m not unschooling. It’s when you get to the roots of the relationship and start looking at your days and your lives from there. It’s just a fundamentally different way. And unschooling is one of the choices.

I think when you take that journey to recognize the importance and value of the relationships, the school choice is just a choice. Whether or not school happens to be part of your lives for a season or for however long it works, the fundamental difference is that it’s still a choice.

ANNA: That’s what I was gonna say. It’s choice and agency, right? That’s the fundamental difference. 

And that’s why it feels different. That’s why the families on the network that have kids that have gone back to school, it feels so different because it’s choice and agency that’s driving it versus have to and cultural expectation. And so it’s just really interesting to tease apart how different the same thing can feel when you’re coming at it from that deeply rooted place that you’re talking about.

I love that. Okay. So for me, one of the big, big ones that has changed, I would say kind of refined and we’ve honed in on it, is this idea that people are different and how that permeates everything.

In the early days, we talked a lot about celebrating the uniqueness of our children. We talked about coming up with solutions that worked for everyone, taking the time to listen, to understand all these different perspectives. So the groundwork was there for that understanding.

But something really clicked when we started talking specifically about how people are different because we are so different. We process information so differently. We prioritize things differently. We see and experience the world differently. There are so many ways that we are different. It is endless.

And it’s funny because Nora in the network just was sharing on one of our weekly calls, another one that popped up for her, another people are different thing. And she was talking about what motivates us to complete a task because she was noticing that she and her husband really take these very opposite approaches. He likes to make the task easy. She likes to make the task interesting. And so they’re coming at this in a very, very different way. And it’s just another way that they’re different.

One is not better than the other. One is not right or wrong. And when we start with that fundamental understanding that our brains are unique and we all have our own way of moving through the world, we can let go of the defensiveness. We don’t have to defend our way of being. We don’t have to convince someone else to see it our way or that our way is right. We can get curious.

And we talk about that so much. We can start enjoying the process of understanding ourselves and others without getting stuck on there being a right way or a better way, which we’ve also touched on this month. And I’m not going to tangent off into all the differences because they’re  just literally too many. But it definitely comes up in the podcast. We’ve talked about it there. We talk about it a lot on the network.

But what I’m getting at today is really this more general open curiosity about exploring the ways that we’re different and ultimately celebrating them and getting excited about these different ways, not taking them personally, not being defensive, just getting excited and thinking how cool it is. Because when we feel that defensiveness slip away, it really leaves space for this deeper, more meaningful connection and a deeper understanding, again, of both ourselves and those around us.

I think it’s been so interesting because just understanding that people are different has helped me learn more about myself. Because there’s something that allows me to realize, that’s actually really important to me. That’s the way my brain works. That’s the way I need something to be presented or the way I need to move through something.

I felt before it was more external, I’m just trying to push my way through or this is how it has to be done. I don’t know how to explain it, but the nuance of that really has helped me understand myself more, understand my relationships more, the people in my life more. This is a piece I’m going to be exploring and talking about the rest of my life because it’s just so fundamental.

ERIKA: It’s such a huge paradigm shift. It has helped me so, so, so much. It’s almost hard to talk about the depth of what this is doing in my mind to be able to think this way. What I can remember is that before these big mindset shifts, it was more like, I want to find out the right way to do this thing or the right way to be like this. If something’s hard for me, that’s something that I should work on. If something’s hard for someone else, that’s the area they need to improve or that kind of thing.

Rather than just saying, this thing is hard for me, that other thing is hard for you. Working to our strengths and realizing our differences. I love the part about how it makes communicating about ourselves with other people easier.

It just has none of that fighting energy, none of this kind of argument energy of like, you’re doing it wrong, I’m doing it right, or I feel like I need to just keep apologizing for myself because I just can’t get my stuff together. I can’t handle this for whatever reason. And so just realizing all of these different layers at which we are just so different from each other and accepting it has been a complete game changer in all of my relationships.

I can start to notice why that thing has always bothered me about how that person does it. It’s just because that doesn’t make sense to my mind. So I feel like anytime we come upon something that someone else is doing and we say to ourselves, it just doesn’t make sense. Why are they doing that? It doesn’t make any sense. Then that’s our clue of like, we’ve hit upon people are different again, because it makes sense to them. And yeah, it’s just so deep and rich and one of my favorite topics.

PAM: Yeah, yeah, me too. And it’s another beautiful example of how unschooling is a window because, like you were talking about Anna, at first, we have always used that language when it comes to our kids, because that’s kind of where I first discovered how different people could be. And that it felt wrong to correct them because it was working for them.

They just they did it their way. And it was working out fine. And I was like, oh, it was part of my whole journey around mistakes are bad, right? They did it this way. And that was different than the way I would have ever thought to do it. And look, it still worked.  So, that was the fundamental first observation. I think that that set me down this path.

There are just so many layers, because then it was like, oh, there’s a reason they did it that way.  You see that consistency over time. I realized they just think about this differently than I do. That’s interesting. And I could see how my kids were different. 

And then you start questioning that age component, right? I can see how I like to do things in particular ways, and then it just starts layer by layer. You find all the different ways, discover more ways that people are different, you discover that it’s not just kids who are different, they’re people. They are whole people. I do even remember when that phrase first popped up. But it just encapsulated everything so beautifully.

And, and it sounds so simple on the surface, people are different. We say that to anybody and people think, of course, but it’s just so fundamentally different and deeper. And once you start using that lens, when I see somebody doing something, and think, I would never do it that way. Go to how people are different, rather than they’re doing it wrong, I should tell them how to do it properly, or more effectively, or more efficiently, or whatever lens we used before. We have improved with the way we choose to do it, to instead use that people are different lens. Oh, and yes, what great framing for conversations, right? Because it’s not judging the way that they’re doing it.

Once they can get on that same page, when we’re coming at this with language that isn’t fighting them, isn’t trying to fix them. Conversations about it are just so much more interesting, because then we’re actually learning about ourselves and learning about other people. And then we can bring that consideration with us forward, right? It’s so cool.

ERIKA: And yeah, it’s making me remember that there’s so much coming at us in any given moment, so much sensory information, right? And everyone’s brain is picking the part that we’re paying attention to. And so you can’t even say, we were all there, how did they not have the same experience as I did? It’s because they didn’t. They literally didn’t see or hear or feel it the same. It could be a completely different experience from one person to another. So it makes sense why we’re all so different. 

So anyway, the one I came up with for this question, thinking about what has changed about my understanding over the years, is when I was first learning about unschooling, I was so focused on what it meant for the kids. What they were doing, or weren’t doing. What I was doing for them? What I was choosing not to do for them? So basically, how to approach my days with them. And with all that focus just going towards them. And over time, that has changed with the realization, and I’m sure it came from the podcast too, that the unschooling journey is my journey to take.

Unschooling is really about me letting go of old messages and patterns, digging into the layers to figure out why I react like this. Or healing a lot of old wounds that can get triggered by parenting. And so, it’s really a journey of growth for myself, that then benefits my relationships with my children. And since I’m willing to look at myself and learn and grow, they gradually have a parent who is more aware, more resourced, and better equipped to support them.

And it’s this beautiful upward spiral. And it’s not to say that it’s easy, or that the upward spiral is just going up and up all the time. But I think it’s actually a bit harder because I need to focus on myself and my baggage and all of that in order to move forward.

In fact, I know we mention all the time that one of the red flags that we’re stressed or maybe have too much on our plates is when we start focusing outside of ourselves and trying to control other people, control our children. It’s so much easier to say, you’re doing this wrong, I need you to get better, than it is to look inside of ourselves. And I think a lot of mainstream parenting is really focused in that way on controlling the kids and looking for the problems that the kids have, rather than exploring why we’re so activated by certain things that the kids are doing and making changes in ourselves.

But I think changing that kind of generational trauma and that generational story, the old patterns, that really has to start with me. And while the kids are focusing on the things they’re interested in and growing and gaining skills, I can focus on becoming more and more true to myself, and just de-schooling all of those internalized beliefs that I took on as I was growing up. And my kids are really great guides in this kind of work, because they’re just naturally so much more in tune with who they are.

They have not internalized nearly as many limiting beliefs as I have. And so looking at them inspires me to continue, because I think this is big, challenging work to do, but it’s so valuable. And sometimes I can’t even believe how much I’ve changed and grown through my unschooling journey.

And I’m really proud of all the work that I’ve put into it. And I’m happy that I can live more truthfully now with my family. I really think it’s changed our relationships.

PAM: I love the idea of more truthfully. I love that phrase, because that is what it feels like. And I too had that realization. At the beginning of the journey because, my kids left school. So it was like, what are we going to do instead of school?

And it was all very outwardly focused at first. But then as I discovered unschooling, and those kinds of questions started bubbling up, then the shift, then that is something if you listen to the podcast archive, you will hear people echo. Especially when I do like 10 questions episodes, where we really dive deeper into people’s journeys. It’s like, it really was all about me, it really is all so much my work to do alongside supporting them.

But if I don’t do this work, I am putting so much on top of our relationship, and our days that is just doing pretty much nothing but getting in the way. It was just a huge thing.

And, you know, as you said, Erika, it can be such a great clue when we notice we’re starting to look outside. I’m feeling overwhelmed, I just need to control other things, just to settle things down. But that is such a great clue to examine, why am I feeling so overwhelmed? Why am I feeling beyond capacity? That is just a useful clue. And not judging right, wrong, good, bad.

Now, if you listen to this podcast for a little while, you know it’s not about that. But these are all great clues that help us ask better questions that just help us learn more and live more truthfully. Like that’s why that phrase struck me. So, that was really cool.

ANNA: Yeah, I love that, too. And this was definitely a part of my journey. Because we come from this culture that’s so externally focused, do it this way, do the right path, do the thing, you know, all of these pieces. And so, really learning it’s all about me is huge. I don’t know if it’s in the Summit, or one of my early talks but it’s literally called “It’s all about me.” Because that was this big revelation, they’re fine. They know how to do these things. They know how to learn and grow and make mistakes and be in the world. It’s me that has all these things to unlearn and unpack to get to that place of alignment of truth of who I am and who I want to be.

And that was just amazing to me. It’s terrifying. And it’s empowering, right? It’s kind of terrifying, wait a minute, now I need to look at all these pieces. But that I can change, right? I think when we’re so externally focused it’s harder. I can’t change David, I can’t change my girls. They are their own people.  And so when we get that, it’s easier. I love that red flag piece too. When I’m out there trying to micromanage everybody around me, it really means probably something’s not feeling good for me, something’s happening for me. And so, again, it can be scary to look at that and do that work. But it is also the thing I can control, which is me, how I move through the world. And so then that kind felt exciting. 

So yeah, this was another huge one for me that just really keeps coming back around. Oh yeah, it’s me again. It’s not them. It’s me.

ERIKA: I mean, it makes it easier, right? In a way. We have control over that part.

ANNA: Yeah.

ERIKA: If it’s soothing to think, maybe nothing’s wrong with those kids. Maybe they’re just living their lives. So, thanks so much to both of you for sharing your reflections.

This was really fun. And to everyone listening in their podcast feed or watching on YouTube, we appreciate you joining us. In our next episode, we will be diving into the question of what still matters to us.

And so we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. We’re offering a free month trial so you can come and see what it’s for yourself. And if you enjoy the kinds of conversations we have on the podcast, there’s a good chance that the network might be a great fit for you as well. I hope to see you there. To learn more and join us, follow the link in the show notes or go to our website, which is livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day.

The Exploring Unschooling Podcast began at the beginning of 2016 when Pam released episode EU001: What is Unschooling?

10 Years! And 400 Episodes! To celebrate these huge milestones, we are looking back and reflecting this month.

In Part 1 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what we’ve learned on our unschooling journeys in the past 10 years. It was a very fun question to explore and we really enjoyed digging into all of our answers.

We talked about how living consensually is really about where we choose to direct our energy, how there’s no such thing as a perfect unschooler (or a perfect parent!), and how independence is not a good measure of unschooling or parenting success. These were all huge paradigm shifts for us over time that have proven to be so valuable.

We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I am joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis.

Hello and welcome, everyone, to episode 400 of the Exploring Unschooling podcast. This year also marks 10 years since I started the podcast. The first episode went out January 10th, 2016 and it all just feels a little surreal yet meaningful for me. And not so much in that celebratory, look how long we’ve been doing this, yay! That is very cool. But in the more reflective sense that 10 years really is a good chunk of time, right? Enough time for thoughts and ideas to grow and change, to strengthen and wither. 

And so, in the last month or so, I’ve become quite curious about exploring this more deeply. When I eventually shared my thoughts about it with Anna and Erika, hello internal processor, they were so very supportive and happy to dive into this reflection alongside me, for which I am forever grateful. You guys are amazing teammates, thank you so very much. 

And I just wanted to share, Anna first appeared on the podcast in episode 4, the very first roundtable episode that we had, and Erika began listening in the early days, first appearing on the podcast in 2019 to talk about unschooling book clubs. And then in October 2022, they both officially became podcast co-hosts. 

So, coming back to now, rather than doing a retrospective or greatest hits episode, as I was trying to think what to do for 400, we decided to use this anniversary, 10 years and 400 episodes, as a chance to pause and just ask ourselves a few simple, but at least what feel to me, meaningful questions. 

What have we learned over the past decade?

What has changed?

And what still matters? 

So, over the next three episodes, the three of us are going to explore those questions together. Now if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that we don’t share our thoughts as experts with answers, but just as thoughtful and curious people who’ve lived this lifestyle with our families for many, many years and have participated in conversations in this sphere for a long time.

The podcast continues because we enjoy sharing our experiences, the ideas that resonate with us, and the patterns that we’ve noticed. And if you’re new here, welcome! We now have a rich archive of 400 episodes for you to explore.

The content is timeless and evergreen with a wide variety of formats from interviews with unschooling parents, to Q&A’s answering listener questions, to me sharing my published articles and conference talks that I’ve written, to ongoing series exploring things like unschooling stumbling blocks and the so-called “unschooling rules”  that can trip people up as they embark on this amazing journey.

So, in this first 10-year anniversary episode we are starting our reflection with the question, what have we learned? Would you like to get us started Anna?

ANNA: I would! But oh my gosh, I’m glad we’re going to be talking and reflecting for the whole month, because it’s really hard to pick one or two things that I’ve learned, because I have learned so much about myself, about relationships, about the world. I think learning is one of the things that actually draws me to this way of life, because I feel like we’re always learning and I love that. 

But what I’m going to talk about today is how living consensually in this lifestyle is really about where we choose to put our energy. The reality of it is, relationships and parenting involves work. It doesn’t have to be hard work, but recognizing that it can take energy to live with other people, to share your life with them, helps me think about how I want to spend my energy. 

And as Mary Oliver asks us in The Summer Day, “Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?” 

So, for me as I reflect back, I never wanted to be a teacher and really it’s why homeschooling was not even on my radar. I’m too interested in learning for myself to try to impart age-appropriate information to someone else. But when our oldest made it clear that school was not going to be a good fit, I had to rethink some of these ideas.

Luckily, early on, I read John Holt and learned about unschooling and it was such a cool fit, because I love facilitating and supporting people that I love exploring the world and seeing what interests them. And I think a cool part of unschooling is that parents are also pursuing their interests and exploring. It’s about creating this environment where everyone is learning and growing and exploring together and that was exciting. That was a place I wanted to spend my energy. 

Another aspect was how I want to be in relationship. Consent and not using coercion as a means to control behavior, well really not even trying to control behavior at all, was important to me. Recognizing that any behavior is just a communication of a need and it’s the needs we want to address. So, with that understanding, it changes the way we relate to each other. In healthy adult relationships we don’t coerce and punish or reward our way to the outcome we want, so why treat children differently? Why not start out with collaboration and connection? Children are incredible problem solvers and quite good at communicating their needs. I think we all know that. Why not learn those skills of navigating conflict and supporting each other from the beginning?

Recently there was a thread on the network where someone was grappling with some fears and they were wanting to reach for some control, and in part of my response I reflected, who do I want to be? How do I want to spend my time? And knowing that being an enforcer to unhappy people is not it. And I think that speaks to this energy lens I’m talking about.

Would I rather spend my energy working towards solving problems big and small than to deal with the fallout of people that don’t feel heard, don’t feel understood, feel like they’re being forced or coerced along someone else’s path? That’s an easy choice for me. Even if the culture is saying it’s for their own good, it’s that energy. What do I want to sit in? What do I want my days to look like? It just isn’t how I want to spend my time or my energy. It isn’t the person that I want to be in the world.

I want to focus on connection, understanding, problem-solving, and finding ways to live together joyfully. So, now you can see why Pam and I were drawn together some 20 plus years ago, because that living joyfully lens is a guiding light for me. I feel like it is this beautiful lens to look through to see these different aspects of our life and relationship and how that all weaves together.

I plan to continue spending my one wild precious life learning, growing, loving with abandon, prioritizing connections, and supporting others on their own unique journey. And so, yeah that’s my reflection for this one.

ERIKA: I love that so much. And actually, until you came up with this idea, I hadn’t really thought of how consent is about where we put our energy, living consensually. It’s just an interesting angle to think about living consensually. And it reminds me of something that I’ve thought about in the past. Sometimes it feels easier to reach for control, but then the way it actually turns out is like it’s not easier. It’s just being fast on the front side of what’s happening and then having to spend all this time with people who are upset.

And so, that is definitely something that I’ve learned through the podcast and through all of our discussions that we can choose that energy that we want to have and we can choose how we’re going to spend our time. And is it going to be that clamping down and trying to make everyone follow these steps? Or is it going to be this more connected, being true to ourselves, and allowing other people to be true to themselves as well, which really is what living consensually means to me?

PAM: Yeah, I love that energy focus and it was a huge a-ha moment for me back then and just so valuable for me moving forward, life-changing in the way that I looked at it. Because sometimes, the control, like you said Erika, makes it go faster up front for the most part, right. So often, we don’t really count the blowback later. We don’t relate it because sometimes it doesn’t even happen in the moment. It’s just a relationship thing that gets harder and harder and harder moving forward so at first we don’t even consider it as part of it. We just say well it’s just so much work to talk to everybody, to see what they need and see what we can figure out. That’s a lot of work because we’re only looking at the upfront piece of it and not really recognizing that back in blowback.  But then you but once you start to recognize that and then you start to see oh like that’s why the relationships feel hard. That’s why our relationships feels hard. 

It helps us realize that so much of it is our choices in the first place that have set this up. It’s not that our kids are grumpy, or our kids don’t listen, all those stories that more conventionally we hear in those parenting circles but we feel like it’s so out of our control. It’s our kids, they’re the ones that are grumpy, they are the problem. How do I fix my kid when in actuality, when you’re looking at that bigger picture and recognizing I have to use my energy somewhere or the relationships are completely disconnected and then parenting is just like a horrible hard thing that you have to do. You have to get through, it’s way too much of our life to do that for me. 

I mean people approach it differently, but for me, what we’ve been learning and for us that’s been my experience as well that it just set a tone and an atmosphere and just felt so much better for me to put that energy there because that was connecting. We learned more about each other, and we actually enjoyed whatever choice that we made more because we didn’t have a person or two that we pulled along because they have to come and they just sit and sulk in the corner. We could enjoy so much more of our days. It didn’t feel like as much of a struggle even though it took more energy or effort up front but when I realized that I was learning things, I could enjoy that piece more and I certainly enjoy that piece more than trying to console somebody who’s really upset after we get back and break down.

ERIKA: It just sounds exhausting.  Okay, I want to move on to what I’ve learned. I’m so excited about this anniversary. I think 400 episodes is a really big deal and 10 years of this podcast existing as this bolster and a resource and a comfort for so many thousands of families. It’s just really inspiring to think about and gives me goosebumps. I’m just so grateful for all that I’ve learned on this journey and really I have the podcast to thank for many of those aha moments I’ve had along the way.

When I was thinking about my own answer to what we’ve learned, what bubbled up for me was that there’s no such thing as a perfect unschooler. I can just think back to myself as a young mom or even just a young adult before I had children and I don’t think I could have wrapped my head around the idea that I can’t be perfect. What does that even mean? I think my many, many years in school gave me a pretty good idea that there are right answers and wrong answers. There are the correct paths that are worthy and good and then a lot of other paths that are disappointing and sad. 

I just thought it was possible to do all the things correctly and then I could be perfect and I would be safe and so I internalized those ideas into parenting. I just was trying so hard to figure out how I could do it perfectly, how can I get an A-plus in parenting, how can I get an A-plus in unschooling. It’s so stressful thinking about that idea now, but it makes sense that that was my lens, at first. It wasn’t really even at a conscious level. I was just like a fish who doesn’t know what water is. I was just like part of this competitive culture that encouraged me to not make mistakes, to be the best but I think there is a part of me that’s really rebellious as well and so there was this part that knew that this pursuit of perfection isn’t the real story of life as a human.

Then my kids, they’re different from me. They aren’t people pleasers and they’re so clear about what works for them and I love them so much. I just can’t see them as wrong. How are they wrong? They’re awesome. So, in order to reconcile the truth of that I had to let go of the idea of the perfect parent/perfect child, the idea that mistakes should be avoided or that there’s any kind of a right answer to life. I know that in hard moments I sometimes still wish for that simplicity of getting the good grade, knowing what the right answer is but real life just doesn’t work like that.

It’s really too bad that I had so much training in that system that’s actually not that helpful when I got out into the real world and if I’m honest that external and internal pressure to be perfect or to be the best doesn’t really serve me at all. It adds so much unneeded stress. It’s safe to be different. It’s safe to make choices that don’t play out the way that we thought they would. There are just so many paths to take through life and there’s not a perfect approach.

What an amazing journey that realization has been for me. It’s not easy to release all of that baggage and all those messages of the years of conditioning but every time I can remind myself that the idea of perfection is just an illusion, our lives are made up of choices and our choices then ripple out from there, things just feel more expansive more relaxed and the possibilities open up.

I just thought maybe to get your minds buzzing with all the possibilities, I’ll throw out a few areas to consider. There’s not a perfect bedtime or a wake time. There’s no perfect diet or body. There’s no perfect age to learn any particular thing. No perfect way to be a friend or to contribute to your family or to communicate. There’s no perfect way to dress or to express your emotions or to move your body. Allowing ourselves to be unique and imperfect is so freeing and once I got there, then I could leave space for my kids and myself to just be who we are right now.  This has been one of the biggest mental shifts for me in my lifetime so far I would say and it’s really thanks to conversations like these that I’ve really been able to process it. 

PAM: I love that we’re all hitting on the ones that were big for us because yes this was another big one, just the idea of perfect. I’ve got to do it right. We have that whole “unschooling rules” series on the podcast because of the idea of, ‘just give me the rules of unschooling so I can be a good unschooler’ exists. That’s a fun series  because that is really what it’s rooted in. Because at first, of course, I want to be really good at this. I want to be really good as a parent, and  if you choose unschooling, I want to be a really good homeschooler, unschooler, whatever, whatever it is.

We are just so used to having that tick box. Then give me my list and I will do it and to reconcile that with the everydayness of life and for me it was so important, I would not have been able to wrap my head around it before I had kids. I wouldn’t have really had a reason to because conventional life and work because often work is the same but seeing my kids when they were younger and the choices they made, it was so different. 

A big one for me was them not getting worked up or upset about mistakes. They were just like, ‘oh, that didn’t work the way I thought’ and then they would just try something else. Whereas, I’d be like, ‘oh my gosh I hope nobody saw that. I’m going to go over here and pretend I didn’t know it happened.’ Those pieces that I learned growing up just because being judged and graded was hard. That’s why I was always so driven to do the right thing,  to find out what the right answer was and to do the right thing. 

So yes, pulling back these layers around this was paradigm shifting for me. Mistakes don’t have to be a bad thing. I do learn a lot. Maybe I was missing some information. Maybe I just need more practice with that skill. I’m learning so much each time and I actually learn more when I can get messier. Often I would just keep trying to input, input, input until I find the right perfect answer before I actually ever take any action. I think it’s so interesting.

ANNA: I think we all have very different personalities and so there’s different aspects of this but I really agree with what you said Pam. If we didn’t have kids I don’t know that I would have gotten this in the same way because for me it was a system to crack.  I knew how to perform in school to get what I needed to get. The A’s, the thing, the whatever. And like you said, it transferred to jobs and different things but I really do feel like it was so blown open by having kids.

They just had this natural piece about them of just, we make mistakes. They figure things out. They’re learning.  When they’re learning how to walk and talk and do from the very beginning, it’s this really natural human process of learning. There was just something about the way my brain works and being fascinated by it which I think we all have in common. We like to tease out these nuances. It’s like, oh there’s a different way, this isn’t it. That’s a system. Humans actually are okay to learn and be messy and figure out these things and so I love that piece.

Then I love what you said Erika, at the end, when you were giving us the list of the different things because what that really brought out for me was that reminder that unschooling or coming to this way of life is this little door we walk through and then there’s this huge world on the other side. There are all the different things that it applies to. So, those mistakes and not being perfect and being messy, it just applies to everything and then suddenly it is this gigantic paradigm shift of everything that I thought was one way has lots of options and is so different than that and so yeah I just loved all of those pieces so much. 

PAM: Okay, ready for this one?  One of the most life-changing things I think that I have learned over the past ten years is that my child’s independence isn’t a meaningful measure of either my child as a person or me as a parent. And to take that a step further I’ve come to think that not only is it not a meaningful measure, holding it as a goal on our parenting journey can be actively harmful.

I have been thinking about this a while before mentioning it to you guys. I was thinking more the other day, I was curious and I cracked open my first book “Free to Learn: five ideas for a joyful unschooling life”, which I published back in 2012. I skimmed the table of contents and sure enough in the last chapter, idea five, living together, which is kind of this whole consensual piece we were talking about, but the title of the last section jumped out at me. “Moving on out”,  so I quickly flipped to that page and there it was in black and white what I had written about preparing my kids for eventually moving out on their own as an important goal I see for myself as a parent. But the goal is not that my children move out as soon as possible, it is to have supported and helped them gain the knowledge and skills that will help make the transition to living on their own as trouble-free as possible.

How many of us started our parenting journey having absorbed that implicit goal of raising independent adults with the ultimate achievement of that goal being our children moving out. I mean, I certainly did so we began unschooling in 2002 and it’s interesting to see that 10 years into my unschooling journey when I wrote that book my perspective had shifted away from looking at that goal through the lens of the conventional agenda of moving out at 18. Like once you’re an adult, you move out and I shifted towards supporting them on their own timetable. So, I didn’t have that timetable anymore but still the assumption of quote unquote “moving out” was still implicit in my words.

So, in the last 10 years I learned one that moving out is not synonymous with independence and two that using the goal of fostering my child’s independence as context for my everyday parenting choices was actually getting in the way of not only my relationships with them but also in them developing their own self-awareness and hearing their own inner voice, understanding themselves better.

So, basically the choices I was making with an eye on that idea of fostering their independence we’re missing so much of the relevant context about them as a person and what was happening in the moment because I was kind of fixated on that future independence. I came to realize that what meant more to me was the idea of interdependence, of our lives weaving together and supporting each other as needed, no matter our ages or where any one of us happens to call home at the moment.

That paradigm shift had and of course continues to have a profound impact on my relationships with my kids and you can see this revelation unfold for me over the last 10 years of the podcast from episode 96 when Anna first introduced me to that phrase ‘independence agenda’ to episode 365 where the three of us just discussed it directly in more depth. To me it was just such a valuable shift that I learned that continues to have such an impact and that I just feel more and more deeply every year. I’ve had conversations with my kids about what does it prove when you move out? How does that prove that you’re independent? Versus the interdependence of living together that has just brought us so much more joy but also so much more knowing of each other, knowing of ourselves. Instead of all that external framework of trying to prove yourself, knowing yourself it’s just so much more meaningful I think moving forward. So, that was a big one for me.

ANNA: It’s such a big one and you know I do get excited because I just wanted to name it and we have named it over the years, this independence agenda because it is so strong in our culture. It starts with babies being moved to their own room. So, it is so interesting to just bring awareness to it so that you can watch for it because again when I think about who I want to be in the world and what’s important to me, it is that interdependence that you’re talking about. It’s that connection, that’s what makes being a human rich to me. Learning about myself, learning about others. So, this artificial agenda that’s handed to us. And it’s so culturally specific. There are many cultures where that isn’t the goal at all and so that’s always interesting too think of this as a have to, we have to make them independent, we have to be moving towards this and yet other cultures don’t even consider that.

I think it’s really interesting. And when we talk about how different we all are, which we’ll be talking about over the month too, it’s recognizing that when our kids are making that choice from inside of them, listening to that inner voice that it’s so different because they may very well have a drive to go off and explore the world or do different things and they may come back and they may not. They may be able to live their whole complete life altogether because again it doesn’t have to look one way. I think that’s the beauty of this life is just like getting rid of what isn’t serving me. No, what do we want to do, as the people here involved in this home and I don’t know that just opens up a lot of possibilities that I think are really beautiful. I do think this was a really big one so yeah I really appreciate you sharing that.

ERIKA: I love that part about how you can see it unfold over the course of the podcast. I just think that’s so fun and amazing that you have records of yourself saying, “This is what I believe now,” and then how that has changed over the years. 

But I think, again, it’s like that fish in the water thing where you didn’t even know it was an assumption that you were carrying. It’s just a fact of our culture that you don’t even realize that there are other possibilities. And so, I feel like when that happens, when it’s something that’s so part of us that we don’t even realize we have that thought. We really only confront it either with help from someone who has realized it or when we bump up against problems in our own family. Like, they’re not moving out. Something’s wrong. And then it’s like, oh wait. Is something wrong? And then we can go through that process of questioning, is this really something that is mandatory? 

And I thought of that cultural piece, too, because, right, it really is also so specific to what culture you’re in, what messages you’ve learned through your whole life. And I think once we’ve become adults in this culture, we’ve been exposed to that message so many times it just feels like, well this is literally what everyone does. But if we start thinking about it, it’s not what everyone does. Everyone has their own context. 

And kind of like my perfection one, too, there’s not a perfect time to move out. There’s not a perfect age to feel like you’re a grown-up. It’s just these weird cultural things that, once you start seeing it, once you start questioning it, it just all kind of falls apart. And it’s like, okay, really anything is possible. We can just look at, who is this person? What do they want? What is their context? What feels like the next step to them? 

And then it really to me is like, when you talk about the web of learning, you don’t want to be throwing them to the other side of their web of learning when they haven’t gotten there themselves. And so, developing independence in various areas of their life, it’s going to look so different for every person. And I just love that I’m not even to that age yet. And I already have been thinking about this. I just feel really grateful for that.

PAM: I love the piece of not throwing them across the web of learning, their understanding of the world. And watching them unfold on their own path and on their own timetable is just so beautiful. Because when you take that moment, it really is them and all about them.

And as they’re figuring things out, that’s beautiful. And I think we’ll probably be talking about this a lot more, but I loved Anna, you mentioned, and this is such a great example, that unschooling is a window to like the world, like to all these pieces. 

When you start, because now you’re actually living together, right? You’re actually in relationship, rather than more often moving just from thing to thing to thing, right? So all these questions start to bubble up. Once you look at a little bit bigger picture than just all the things start to come into focus. It was such a great point, Erika, that it wasn’t even something that we had consciously made a choice about, or that we even knew was an assumption that we were carrying.

It was just like this fundamental fact of life, it felt like. But you’re right too, about it being cultural. For my husband, who’s Italian, that wasn’t a big thing. Moving out at any particular age wasn’t a thing at all.

So, all those little pieces, we start building our own web, our own wisdom and context around an idea. It’s just so beautiful.

Anyway, thank you both so much. Thank you for sharing your reflections about what you’ve learned on this amazing journey, and we will be talking about lots more as the rest of the month unfolds. And thank you to everyone listening, whether you’re listening in your podcast feed or watching on YouTube, we appreciate you joining us. So in our next episode, we’ll be diving into the question of what has changed for us.

And we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. As we mentioned in the last episode, we are now offering a free month trial, so you can come check it out and just see if it’s a good fit for you. And if you enjoy our podcast conversations, that’s probably a good sign that it just might be.

So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to our website, livingjoyfully.ca. And we wish everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much to you both. Bye.

We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a wonderful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Jenna-Gaye Hollis. Jenna is a mom of four living in Australia. Her sons are 17, 16, 14, and 9, and she shared some of her unschooling journey with us.

Before having children, Jenna was a teacher. Her first son, Jye, pretty much fit the mold of what she was expecting parenting to be like, but it was Jenna’s second son, Haize, who really brought unschooling to the family. When school just wasn’t working out for him, Jenna discovered unschooling and it really spoke to her heart. So much fun and learning have blossomed from that point!

We talked about navigating big transitions as a family, leaning on the support of other unschooling parents in the Living Joyfully Network, especially when fears bubble up, and some of the a-ha moments that Jenna has had along her journey so far. It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Jenna Hollis. Hello to you all. And before we dive in, I want to mention that the Living Joyfully Network is celebrating six years in February.

It has been and continues to be the most amazing space with intentional families from all over the world sharing their journeys. And recently we’ve been hearing some from new members that they were kind of sitting on the fence and not sure about joining, but now they’re loving it and they wish they had joined sooner. So to help people hop off that fence, we are now offering a free trial month.

That way you can see for yourself what a warm inviting space it is, filled with resources and connections. You can learn more about that opportunity in the show notes, or you can also go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link will be on the homepage. 

I am very excited about Jenna joining us today. She has been a longtime member on the Living Joyfully Network, and it has been such a treat sharing in her journey and getting to know her family. Her generous spirit, deep reflections, and ability to articulate her personal journey has sparked so many aha moments for all of us. And I think it’s going to be really fun to share her beauty and insights with our podcast audience. So welcome, Jenna.

And to get us started, I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about you and your family, what everybody’s into right now. And we’d love to just hear a bit about your story of coming to Unschooling.

JENNA: Yeah, no problem. First of all, I’m excited to be here. This has been such a big resource in my life. And I just don’t think I would be where I am today without it. It’s just that real life line that keeps me true to this journey, that has not been easy by any means. But what makes it easier is it’s our journey.

And anyway, I’ll jump into talking about my family. I’m married to Leon. He’s my childhood sweetheart, I’ve been with Leon since I was 15. And yeah, we’ve really grown together. You think you get married and you’ve got it all worked out. And it’s like, no, this journey is always under construction. That is for sure. 

So, we’ve got four boys. We’ve got Jye, who will be 18 in April. Haize, who is 16. Blair, 14. And our youngest, Leeton, who will be 10 in a couple of weeks. And that makes up our beautiful, loud, dynamic family. And we are all very different. You kind of think you’ve got it worked out before you even have kids, or I know I definitely did.

I was a teacher before I became a parent. So I had this idea that I just knew exactly what I was walking into. And then we have one child and Jye was that child that kind of fit that idea of what it meant to raise children.

And I’ll talk a little bit about Jye. He, at the moment, he’s right into his football, like absolutely loves his footy. He’s actually living down in Sydney, predominantly with my husband, because we made a big move three and a half hours from where we raised our family over the past sort of 15 years.

And so, he’s down in Sydney, and he’s really getting right into his football. He had an amazing year last year, found an awesome team that was really aligned, the same attitude, they just wanted to just get better and better. And so that’s where a lot of his focus is going this year.

And he’s also doing his electrical trade. He decided to follow in his dad’s footsteps and give that a real go. And he’s really loving that.

And so he’ll be actually going into his third year of his apprenticeship halfway through this year, which is just like, what, how did that happen? How did we get here? But he’s there, he’s really stepping into his own, and living down in Sydney away from us. It wasn’t an easy decision. But it’s been the best decision, because he’s just he has his mates down here, he’s got a girlfriend down here. And he just loves being down here. And at the same time, when he comes up and stays with us, he really enjoys that time too. He gets right into his fishing. So that’s another one of his interests. 

And then moving on to Haize, who is our 16-year-old, and he’s the one who actually brought us to the unschooling pathway. When I had Haize, he was a child that shook up all of my ideas of what it meant to raise children. You know, because he’s just his own, his own little spirit, who literally cannot live outside of what is right for him. 

I feel like Jye is very peripherally aware, very much aware of what pleases other people. And he doesn’t sacrifice himself for that. But he very much is in tune with, okay, how is this person wanting me to do X, what ticks off other people’s boxes, whilst also staying true to himself. And then Haize came along, and he’s just this, he’s just so in tune with who he is and what he wants, you know, the decisions he wants to make at any given moment.

And so we did start in the school system. The school system fit Jye really well. He’s a real people person, loves being around lots of different people, and just fit that system quite well.

But then as Haize was getting older, I was like, I don’t know about how this is going to work. He just runs his own show. Anyway, we gave it a real good go.

And it wasn’t until we got to year two, and he had such an amazing teacher. He had some great friends. But he just wasn’t happy. You could just see that light dimming in him. And I just knew that I had to look for an alternative option. And so we went down the route of a Steiner school as well.

And that was okay to begin with. But then I discovered unschooling, and it just spoke so deeply to my own heart that I just could not, not follow it. And that’s where I really came to understand Haize as a person who like, when something speaks so deeply to you, you can’t not do it.

It’s a bit like once you know something, you can’t unknow it. And it’s like, once you start to tap into making decisions from that place, living in alignment with who you are, you can’t not do it. Anyway, he was the one that brought us here.

As a kid, he was always outside, always playing with bugs, always catching spiders, you know, and he still loves all those things. He loved fishing. But as he’s gotten older, he’s gone through this real cocooning phase. And he’s gotten right into his gaming. And I’ve been sitting back and really watching and aiming to understand that as opposed to judging it, accepting that this was a big part of his life. And it was a really challenging thing for me to do. You know, he’s this kid that was so outdoorsy and so into everything. And then all of a sudden, it changes. And I think we get so many messages about gaming that that doesn’t help.

But once I stripped all of that away, and took the time to actually understand what it was that he was drawn to, it makes total sense. He is that immersive learner, he learns through his whole body, doing whatever it is. And so I was watching him play all these different games, and then seeing how that marries up with the things that he does out in the real world as well.

So, it’s just another way of exploring those interests. Like he loves target shooting, and he loves roleplay. I watch how all of my kids interact with each other. And they just love roleplaying and getting really into the story. My kids have never been the sit there and read a book kind of kid, as much as the teacher in me would have loved that.

They just were not those kinds of kids. But then when you watch your kids in a natural environment, you really come to understand who they are. And you see the threads throughout their whole life.

So that’s Haize, he’s definitely the one that brought us here. And I’m so grateful that he did that and that I was able to undo a lot of my already predetermined thinking. All of which has led me to this place where I have learned a lot about myself.

And so I’ll move on to Blair.  Blair is my 14-year-old. And I am so in awe of the changes that this child has made. He too went to school to begin with, and he was a kid, well even as a baby, he was that real kind of anxious kid who was always watching where I was. He never left my side. You know, I’m going to the shopping centre and always lose things. Turn around. And then I’ve got Blair, who’s always by my side, always clinging to me, just didn’t have that confidence about him. And then he went to school as well, because that’s what we were doing back at that time. And I think he spent every day of kindergarten clinging to the fence, crying. When I think about it, that’s probably the biggest regret that I have is that I persevered through that for the whole year of kindergarten. 

But now looking at him, giving him that environment where he was just free to be himself. He was able to really develop that ground of confidence. Like, you watch him in conversations with people, and he just has this, this confidence in who he is.

There’s none of this, you know, self promoting, like, it’s really hard to describe, but when you watch your kid’s journey, and you see how much they just grow into who they are, it’s really cool to just go, far out, I don’t need to do anything other than provide that environment that really allows them to grow into more of who they are. 

So Blair has gotten back into his basketball. He’s always been my more gaming kid. He’s always been right into his technology, which, in the beginning, I couldn’t really understand, because Leon and I are not tech people whatsoever. But Blair would always have an iPad in his hand, was always into gaming more than anyone else. But as he has grown older, that’s become less and less in his life, and he’s more into his acting, loves to do stage performances, which is something Haize loves to do as well.

We’ve joined this stage production company up where we live now, and the boys have really gravitated towards that. It’s just a really nurturing environment that has allowed them to just step into that confidence. It was probably shaken a little bit with the move, like it was such a big move, which I’ll talk about a little bit later on.

But finding that nurturing environment that allows them to just, again, be who they already are is just so, so pivotal.

Both boys this weekend are actually doing some paintball training. They both really enjoy their paintball training sessions and games and things. And Blair’s actually interested in going back to school this year, so that’s something that we’re in the process of exploring as well. And yeah, I’m excited to see how that journey unfolds for him, however long that goes for. 

And then that brings us to Leeton, my youngest, who I would say has been the luckiest to get sort of the more evolved parent in myself, that’s for sure. You really see that in the conversations that you have with Leeton. He’s just, oh, you cannot not see your own BS behavior, that’s for sure. He really reflects back at you, like he questions you.

He’s like, okay, but mum, you said this, why are you doing this? And it’s just really cool to see this child who is so young, but just has all of these critical thinking that apparently, kids don’t supposedly develop until whatever age it is that the experts decide. And so what I’ve seen with him, because we’ve been on this pathway for pretty much most of his life, is that he’s an active thinker in his own life.

He’s had the opportunities to have a say as opposed to being spoken to. He too is very much interested in going back to school this year and has just started to take an interest in reading, which has been a really interesting journey for me to be on with Leeton, letting go of that whole idea of kids need to learn this skill at the age that most kids in school are expected to learn it. And just allowing him the space to come to it in his own time has been really cool to watch.

He gets excited about picking up a book now to further develop that skill. And I’m like, how many kids actually even get that opportunity to have that excitement for these things? So that’s something that he’s definitely into at the moment.

He’s also loving his basketball. I find that he tends to sort of pick up the things that his older brothers are interested in, which is really cool, right? Because then it brings a shared interest where they’re spending this quality time together over those shared interests. He’s also loved gaming.

That’s becoming a little bit less and less. You can sort of see Leeton going through this stage at the moment where he’s trying to work out where he wants to go next. He’s getting a little bit bored with the gaming aspect of things.

But he absolutely loves it when the boys step into this role playing and they get their Nerf guns and just  muck around. And it’s so cool to see that a 16 and a 14 year old are still doing that sort of role play. I have seen kids let go of that because it’s just, I just feel like we make them grow up way too quick. And so it’s just really cool to see them in that, in that natural environment and just being free to be who they already are.

And then that brings me to myself and Leon, because we also have interests. I think sometimes we forget, hang on a minute, adults also have interests and it’s been really cool. We bought a 50 acre property up on the mid north coast and my husband has always spoken about farm life and has always spoken about how he’s wanted a farm.

Not quite 12 months ago, we ended up purchasing a 50-acre farm, which actually came on the back end of my 14 year old Blair’s interests. He wanted to get into acting. And so that took us further up to the coast and we’d have to stay overnight when they needed to be in this particular location for consecutive days.

And so we’d go stay at a farm-stay and then we ended up finding this area that we really loved. It’s interesting to see how each of our interests are then coming to blend together to become the life that we’re living now. And so going back to my husband, that’s something that’s been a huge interest of his. Seeing him up on his new playground, it’s just, I don’t know, you can tell when someone becomes just light again. And that’s what it’s like when Leon is on the farm and is problem solving, like, where is the water naturally running? How are we going to organize the paddocks? Because we’re going to get cattle and, so it’s really cool to kind of go, yeah, we are all human beings. We all have interests. We’re not just here to work, to generate an income for our family that then dictates our whole life.

Well, that’s what it was for Leon, for sure. It just became all consuming that we kind of forget that we’re more than just that. And so we’ve started to make these decisions that are changing the priorities and that’s what’s led to the big move. I’ll speak more about that a little bit later.

And then finally myself, obviously an interest is definitely unschooling. When I came across the unschooling podcast,  I couldn’t wait until the next episode came out. And I was constantly checking when the next episode was going to come in and now I’m part of the Network and have been for a few years. So it’s a matter of just waiting for the next week. And I wonder what the next weekly focus call is going to be. And I just love it. It really keeps me constantly evolving and moving through those things that could potentially  hold me back.

So, that’s definitely an interest of mine. I also have an interest in interior decorating. We’ve renovated our house down here in Sydney that we’ve got on the market to sell. I loved that process.

We’re going to be doing some Airbnb stays. So I get to zhuzh up the different places that we’ve bought. And I just love that whole thing of working out which pieces will work really well in this room and what kind of feeling it’s going to give to the people who stay here.

So, that’s definitely an interest of mine. And also starting to tap into the potential of writing my own book, which I feel like it has been percolating over the last sort of 10 years and just capturing all of those beautiful golden nuggets, a lot of it comes from being part of the network. But I’m going to stop talking because there’s a lot of people to cover.

PAM: I do just love that. I loved your point about how things weave together and it’s not something you can predict and it’s not something you can set up. But when you’re open and you’re supporting each person as the individual they are and just helping them explore, it is so fascinating just to see where things weave together.

Because it is surprising, I guess maybe just surprising to me, but so many things that feel independent are quite rooted in just being human. And so often there are overlaps that you see and it really just helps bring me back to the like, we’re all humans moving through this world. So yes, that’s the nice thing about that question and about the details because that’s where we have space to see the bigger picture than just, I support this kid and I support that kid, but we’re a family.

That comes together when we support the individuals as well. You are individuals in this family. And when we all do the things that we love, and we’re doing them side by side and connected with one another, they just come together in such fascinating ways.

JENNA: Absolutely. And as someone who is has lived that world of, feeling like I needed to be the one that transformed these children into these upstanding citizens, so to speak, to moving to this place of actually taking a step back, and understanding who they are, and finding those elements, if you will, that allows them to just be more of who they are. What a way easier pathway to parent from. Oh my goodness, when I think about all the things that I used to try to control,  no wonder I was so exhausted all the time.

It’s such a load that we carry as, as mums and as dads, and just feeling like we are responsible for how these people turn out. And it’s just realizing that all they need is just a little bit of love and support. And they find their own way.

And I could not plan this out if I tried. And in fact, the more of a plan that I have for other people, the more I come to the same point where I realize that, oh, that wasn’t for me to plan for. Because that’s not my life. Plan for your own life for sure. But hold those plans really loosely.

 Because these other people are people and they’ve got different ideas on how they move through the world, and what the next step is that they want to take in their life. And by holding that really loosely, you become a lot more flexible and more open to taking in information that you otherwise wouldn’t know.

ERIKA: I just loved that. And it was so fun to hear, Jenna, because I feel like I didn’t know that part of your story about your move to unschooling. So that was fun to hear. And I especially loved accepting each person as their unique individual person, and how much easier it makes parenting when we’re not trying to fit them into these particular boxes.

I loved all of that. Your family has made some big transitions in the past couple of years, which you’ve been alluding to. And so my question is, how has this way of life impacted your choices, and helped you navigate all the ups and downs of those transitions?

JENNA: Yeah, well, like I said, at the beginning of the call, I definitely don’t think we would be where we are today if I hadn’t been on this pathway, that’s for sure. It’s not even hard saying it’s a pathway because it’s not a predetermined pathway.

I feel like a lot of the time we’re seeing all these pathways, this is the pathway to get you here. And really, it’s just this unfolding of your own pathway. And so what being immersed in this kind of way of living has done for me is really opened up my thinking. Where you start to see all of the possibilities, where I would have otherwise seen that there was either this way, or there’s that way.

But there’s so much in between. If we just step outside of the ‘have tos’, I think that’s a big part of transforming, forming those ‘have tos’ into really discovering what the ‘want tos’ are. And I think we also have these ideas. I know you spoke about this in the last podcast, these paradigms, the spectrum of things, of right and wrong and realizing there’s so much in the middle.

And that’s where the juice is. I think sometimes we think that, okay, well, how do we get all of our ‘want tos’ met? Well, if you’re going to get your ‘want to’, then I’m not going to get my ‘want to’. And it’s like, no, it’s realizing that when you come together, and you also open up the conversations for your kids to be part of that, whether it’s them actually talking, or whether it’s them showing you through their actions, what’s important to them. By really taking in all of those pieces, we get to this place where you end up really allowing everyone to live according to their ‘want tos’. So, that was a big thing, shifting from the ‘have tos’ to the ‘want tos’.

Also, with that came the flexible thinking, you know, actually being able to, have a plan, like we had a plan of selling a house, and all moving together up the coast where we bought our three bedroom unit, that was kind of our transitional move. We knew that there needed to be a transitional move that would allow us to start to recreate this new way of living, but also get to know where we wanted to buy that bigger parcel of land where we were going to create our own little farm from. And so, yeah, the plan was that we would sell our home, but our home didn’t sell.

And we’d already bought our unit, and interest rates started to climb. And so we got to this point where we were like, we need to do something, we cannot sustain this. And so this is where we turned to, and it just came to me one weekend, I was like, what if we rent out our house, with the option of the people renting to buy, that was like, okay, this might work, because I don’t know what it’s like over in the US, but in Australia, the market, the housing market, really became very unstable.

And so this is where we moved to this whole idea of, okay, well, let’s rent out our house, we’ll make the move up to the unit. And we’ll just see how that goes. And so without going into too much detail, when I’m talking about flexible thinking, it’s about knowing where you’re heading.

But taking just that small step, and then being able to take in the new information that comes from that small step, to then take the next small step. And that might mean that what you thought was going to unfold may change. And so by having that flexible thinking, you’re able to move with the tides, whether that might be someone’s needs changing as well in the family, because, they might. Just just be open to all of the info, the new information that comes in with taking a new step.

Because if we would have waited for all of our ducks to be all in a line before we took action, we would never take action. It’s just about taking those small steps now, based on what you feel is the right move and then being open to the next lot of information coming in to decide the next step and the next step. So, definitely the flexible thinking has come from being on this unschooling pathway and all of the learning that I have gained from being open in my thinking to adjust those beliefs and those associated behaviors that are driven by those beliefs that may have served me in the past but were not serving me in the here and now. And so being able to look at those and work out, okay, does that stand true with where I am now?

Being able to change that thinking that then creates a whole new bunch of behaviors. So that’s definitely something that this pathway or this way of living has helped. And also being able to even hear your own heart, just hear what your own heart is telling you.

I feel like the life that I used to live was so busy, just busy doing, busy being busy, just constantly doing, doing, doing, doing, doing that you don’t take the time to stop and actually think, is this the kind of life that I want to be living? I remember with the kids being at school, I felt like I was marching soldiers off every day and was like ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Like, oh my goodness, is this really what I signed up for?

Is this really how I want to be a mum? Where I am controlling these other human beings down this particular pathway that I personally see time and time again? 

I look at a lot of adults who are just living life because they have to, not because they’ve had the time to really work out if this is what they want. And on top of that, then having the courage to follow through. Because it’s one thing to know what you want, but having the courage to actually step into, to step outside of the familiar zone and do something different, it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of support that you may not necessarily have already in the environment that you’re in.

Our loved ones and our friends, we all mean well, but if we don’t have the skills of even pure listening, a lot of the time you’ll go to a loved one with a problem that you’re having, and then there’s this whole idea that you’re going to them because you want them to solve your problem. And unless you take the time to really reflect on, well, when you’re sharing something with someone, what do you want in that space? And all you’re wanting is to be heard so that you can find your own solutions.

But a lot of the time, a lot of us haven’t had that model to us first and foremost, or haven’t developed the skills to just be able to sit there and listen and ask the right questions for people to get to their own answers. So I hope that answers the question.

ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s really cool because people can think, oh, unschooling or whatever, it’s very focused on kids and education. But I think that what you said really spoke to how it opens up this whole new world of, hey, how do we feel? What serves us?

Let’s look at this, let’s pivot, let’s figure these different things out. And I think that’s something that’s hard to explain to people until you’re in it, that it just opens up everything. So yeah, I really loved that.

JENNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like in today’s world, particularly, I know in my world,  they talk about kids of today finding it so hard because of social media. And I’m like, yeah, it’s so challenging for adults, too. Because we have all of this information telling us that this is the right way, that’s the right way.

And so we’re constantly bombarded with information. But the only information that really matters is the information that sits within you, no one has lived your experience. And so it’s so important to be able to get back to that space where you’re taking what you’re hearing with a grain of salt, but coming back to what feels true to you and what you’re seeing in your own family, as opposed to taking the information that we’re presented with. Whether it be about gaming, right.

And then we start to fit our situation to that information. And then all of a sudden, we’re coming in and we’re switching the game off and telling our kids to get outside or whatever it is. So, it’s being able to take that information with a grain of salt, but really coming back to the information that matters most. And that’s the information that sits within inside of us. And yeah, and then having the courage to act on that information. It’s not easy by any means, but it’s definitely worth the journey.

PAM: Yeah, I feel that you had mentioned earlier too, that listening piece. When we’re moving through things, because you were talking about big transitions, and to be able to listen to others is quite a skill because so often, especially during big times like that,  we kind of know the general direction that we want to go, so to be able to give that space for listening, I think is just so valuable because we learn so much.

And then we’re able to, like you said, take that next little baby step. Even if we don’t know exactly how we’re going to get to that destination that we have in mind, that direction we want to go, taking that little baby step is just so much more helpful, just because like we’ve listened, we’ve understood what other people’s perspectives are. And then coming together to just choose that next little baby step so that we can learn more. We learn more each time. So I think that’s super interesting. 

You have just been so gracious in sharing your perspective on these things. And I love when you come with aha moments so often in the network as you move through this. But now you were talking about big transitions, and how you like to move through those. I’m curious if you would talk a bit more about how you process through times when older fears bubble up.

You kind of alluded to what I expected to be as a parent, etc. But so often as we come up, we think things are going well, and then something changes, or we notice that, or we hear a voice of what society’s telling us. I find for myself, anyway, that those can spark older fears that I’ve been carrying.

And I didn’t know about it until we’re facing this, this moment. I hadn’t really thought about that before. And then there’s all this stuff bubbling up. So, it’s another whole process to move through that. I was wondering if you would share a little bit of your process. 

JENNA:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, when I think about the Network, this is where it becomes so invaluable. We all have a nervous system. It’s designed to keep us safe. So, for you to create something different, it requires you to step outside of that, we call it the comfort zone, which I don’t think is a very good term for it, because it’s not comfortable. It’s not comfortable, but it’s familiar, right?

And so the moment you try to step outside of that, you get these alarm bells. And as you’re going on the journey, and you’re putting those alarm bells at bay, because you’re starting to take those small steps, and you start to realize that you didn’t die from taking that one small step, your nervous system starts to relax into it. But then you might be having a conversation with a friend who is talking about how they do things, or this expert over here is saying, children need to have x amount of time outside or whatever it is.

And then all of a sudden, that comes in. And then you’re questioning your decisions, your old fears start to bubble. And so by being part of the Network, I’m able to bring those fears.

And we were able to really go deep into them, and start to see it from different perspectives, because it’s realizing that’s all transformation is, it’s being able to shift the perspective that’s creating the fear to seeing it from a different perspective, where you get those aha moments. And then before you know it, you’re still coming up against those messages, but you’re so grounded in your own decisions. Because you see the other perspective, you see that there’s nothing to be afraid of here.

There’s nothing, that it’s all part of the journey. And I actually see it now as an invitation, whenever those things pop up, it’s an invitation just to look at things a little bit more deeply. And so when I get those feelings, which naturally, I’ve had lots of them, continuously stepping out of my familiar zone, and doing things, I guess, a little against the grain from the world that I’ve been brought up in.

And so being able to bring those fears to the Network, and sometimes I’ll find if I’m in the thick of it, I don’t necessarily want to be out, I don’t want to talk about it. But just being able to listen to other people’s shares, it brings on that feeling like, me too, like, I’m not alone in this. Oh, yes.

And then you beautiful ladies with all of your wisdom, and how you do it is just so nurturing, you’re always validating whatever it is that we’re bringing. And then you’re offering your own experiences or experiences that you’ve had with other people who you’ve worked with, to help us get to this place where all of a sudden you sink back into your own reasons for doing things. So, you might have been swept away with someone else’s agenda or whatever the message is. But then you’re brought back into your own reasons for making the choices that you are.

And it just brings you a sense of calm. So, whenever I have a fear coming up, and strangely enough, I’ll have those sorts of things pop up. If I’m going to catch up with people from even my family, I sometimes worry that I’m being judged. And so my brain gets into, okay, well, if someone asked me why Leeton isn’t reading yet, what am I going to say? And so I get myself worked up because I’m thinking I’m getting judged because I have done this horrible thing, where I haven’t forced my child to learn something at a time when someone else wants him to learn it. And so like, how am I going to hold that conversation without trembling.

So I get myself so worked up. It’s funny how our thoughts can kind of spiral. And so what I would typically do before I’m going to a big event, or where I feel like my confidence is shaking a little, I’ll just listen to a podcast, or I’ll jump on and listen to one of the weekly focus calls from the network. And all of a sudden, I just found my grounding again.

And so what that does when I’m interacting with other people, I don’t even get those conversations coming up. Because really, the people that are in our life that may be living differently, they’ve only got concerns, because they’re looking to us. And if we’re not looking like we’re sure of what we’re doing, naturally, they want to help.

And so their form of help is pulling you back to the familiar zone, like come back over to this side, where we all live, and we all grind, and we all live our life by a bunch of have tos, as opposed to want tos. When I’m grounded, I find that then those conversations don’t come out, I’m not questioning myself. So, in answering your question, Pam, when those fears bubble up, it’s just having that space to be able to come and explore those in a really non-judgmental space.

But also to have them validated, which is a skill that I’m still working on. I’m still not that fantastic at it. It’s not that I’m not fantastic at it, it’s something that I’ve really had to work at. And I just think that when people validate you and just appreciate your experience of things, instead of coming in and sharing their experience, and feeling like they have to try and solve your problem, the weight gets lifted off your shoulders and you can find your grounding again. You can become centered, where you’re hearing what next step is right for you.

So yeah, that’s definitely how I deal with those times. I mean, it’d be nice to think that they don’t pop up, but they pop up, but that’s where the juice is, that’s where all the learning is. When things become shaky, and you start to become aware of those things that are ready for you to transform and to liberate you to the next level of being able to move forward in your life.

ERIKA: I love that last bit, because that was just what I was thinking. It still happens to everyone too. Fears coming up again is such a part of life. And so, I love how you described the feeling of just being validated, grounding back into yourself. It just makes such a huge difference.

It makes such a huge difference, even just to hear your fears out loud in front of someone else. There’s something about that processing and putting it into words. Because sometimes it feels so big inside of our brains as we’re ruminating and going over and over these fears. But as soon as we start to try to express them out loud, I think that’s step one of the process of releasing them. And yeah, I love how the Network is that for me, as well, like grounding back into myself.

PAM: I have to point out about validation, because it is a skill. And it is always work. But for me, it eventually gets to a point where, if that’s how somebody’s feeling and seeing a situation, that’s reality. That’s the way it is. So, it’s not like you’re validating something that’s made up or something that’s wild. This other person, this wonderful person in front of you, is feeling that and is seeing things that way. 

So, to be able to meet someone there, I feel like on both sides, it’s just so helpful as a person doing the validating. It’s so helpful to me because that’s the learning. That’s where I’m expanding. It’s like, oh, wow, I couldn’t have even imagined seeing that moment or seeing this thing in this way. That is so interesting to me. Thank you so much for sharing. 

And not to get off on a tangent, but one of the challenging things I think for people is thinking that, if I validate that, especially if they’re having a hard time, it’s like I’m saying that that is also how I’m seeing it. There’s such a difference.

And I think it doesn’t feel as validating if you’re meeting them exactly where they are, like, oh yeah, I see that too. That’s exactly how I see it. Because so often, it’s their unique experience, which is a culmination of who they are in this moment and the context of things going on for them and whatever situation you’re discussing. They’re a unique human being, so they’re going to see it in their unique way. So, to be able to meet them there is just super helpful, but helpful on both ends, I think.

JENNA: Absolutely. And what I found has helped me, because somewhere along the lines, I decided it was my responsibility for everything and everyone. 

Somewhere I decided that I’m responsible for how other people process the world and I need to do something about it. And so what I found with validation, it helped me to detach myself from whatever was going on. So detaching from my husband having a response to something, the more I’m able to validate his experience, the less I felt like I was taking it on.

Because it’s just acknowledging that his experience is his experience. It has actually got nothing to do with me. Like, no offense, Jen, this ain’t to do with you.

Just focus on what’s happening here. And this is something that I get tripped on. I mean, I got tripped up on it last night, even.

And it’s just like, ah, validation, that’s right. And if you just use it, then everyone softens in the situation where then we feel open to be able to go deeper into whatever the issue is and find those magical solutions that allows us all to move forward. So yeah, validation is definitely key.

ANNA: I mean, you know I love validation. So huge. And I think what you both are really touching on is validation isn’t making it about us, right? It’s not getting defensive or making it about our experience. It really is just hearing, reflecting, giving space to that person to be really heard around what’s happening for them. I loved that piece.

Well, we are just so happy to have you here and just really appreciate you sharing these little bits of your journey. Thank you so, so much. And I hope everybody enjoyed the conversation and maybe had their own little a-ha moment or something that’s like, “wait a minute,” for their own journey, because they’re all so, so unique. 

And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I really do think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network, because this is the kind of stuff we talk about and dig into all the time. It’s such an amazing group of people. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer that I mentioned earlier. And you can find the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca. and the link is on the homepage. 

Thank you for listening. And thank all of you for being here. It was really, really a fun time, so thank you so much.

JENNA: Thank you for having me. 

PAM: Thank you so much, Jenna. See you soon!

ERIKA: Thank you, Jenna!

ANNA: Bye!

JENNA: Yes. Bye!

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Polarizing Paradigms.

While it’s common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area.

We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

Want the full collection of Living Joyfully Foundations podcast episodes as an audiobook (and the transcripts edited into an ebook)? Find them here in the Shop!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

EPISODE QUESTIONS

1. How does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you?
2. Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand?
3. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way?
4. Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love?
5. How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life?

TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

So, in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it’s pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others.

So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it’s applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn’t feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world?

It’s when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there’s one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don’t? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved?

And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What’s driving the behavior? What’s driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn’t have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there’s one right way.

And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we’re losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We’re losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it’s in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away.

PAM: Yes. Judging another person’s behavior is so often disconnecting, and that’s precisely because it’s a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us.

We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there’s much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all.

And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher?

ANNA: Maybe!

PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It’s like when we expand “right for us” to mean “right period.”

Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process.

And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person’s actions. The relationship is my lens. It’s my priority. I’m also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I’m thinking about the situation or the rub that’s happening.

ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it’s just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, “No, this is the way,” we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that.

But it’s kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we’re talking about humans here. As we’ve discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes.

So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they’re trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. “You’re a good boy if you’re doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not.” So, you’re a good boy if you’re sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you’re fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you’ve been sitting for hours and you just can’t do it anymore?

If instead we look at the need, we don’t have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn’t see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they’re in.

PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn’t necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on.

And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them.

Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time.

ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that’s where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection.

Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I’m just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer’s son lets out their one horse. The village says, “What bad luck!” “Maybe,” says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. “What good luck!” they say. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. “What bad luck,” they say again. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn’t taken because of the broken leg.

So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don’t know how things will unfold, so let’s just face what’s in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway.

PAM: I love that point. When we’re judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We’re very much, “Here’s the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it’s done, good, bad, however,” and then just move on to the next thing.

But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it’s so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don’t need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way.

ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there’s a thread and it’s unfolding and I don’t want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding.

I think it’s important to realize that when we’re judging other people or their actions, we’re missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we’re judging. I think it’s important to look at that for a minute, because when we’re judging someone’s action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it’ll change what they’re doing? Maybe. But how will that feel?

And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone’s judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we’re moving forward.

That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that’s the environment that we’re cultivating.

PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right? 

ANNA: Oh yeah.

PAM: It is about how we’re seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn’t feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. “No, I’m going to defend this. I’m going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn’t feeling judged.”

I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we’re on the same team. We’re going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It’s not controlling anymore.

ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you’re open, you’re curious, you’re learning, you’re both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we’re feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they’re saying. What they’re saying might be helpful, but not when it’s delivered with that side dish of judgment. We’re not even going to hear it.

And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind.

Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It’s really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn’t do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn’t have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We’re never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts.

And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don’t way behave the way I think is good or right, I’m going to blame you for things that have happened. I’m going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it’s just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don’t need to just keep creating them. Let’s just try not to keep creating them!

PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren’t always going to go smoothly, but we don’t need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It’s just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry.

We all want to. “It’s not my fault. It’s not my fault. No, no, no.” And how often once we find someone to blame, that’s the end of it. We want to move on. It’s not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we’re not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time.

Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we’re all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren’t particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you’d like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they’ve done or said.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we’ve done half the time. You know what I mean? We don’t need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that’s like, “Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?”

And so, it’s just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we’re talking about our most important relationships, it’s just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important.

So, for me, all the things that we’ve talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There’s not one right way to do or be. There just isn’t.

We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they’re based on the understanding that we’re doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need.

So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of “polarizing” when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don’t serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority.

PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we’ve mentioned, so much richer and it’s more connected with the real human beings that we’re choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray.

ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s talk about a few questions for pondering this week.

So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it’s just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we’ve all had it happen. So, how does that feel?

Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there’s lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person’s coming from?

PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn’t about replacing it with, “I’m wrong.”

ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all.

PAM: Exactly. It’s more expansive. It’s bigger. It’s about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things.

ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it’s the “through their eyes” that we’ve talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different.

So, letting go of that strong-held “right” just opens up. Again, it doesn’t mean it’s going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they’re very right, that blaming just doesn’t feel good.

And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that’s really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they’re spending their time or what they’re doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you’ll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where’s judgment coming into play? See where it’s coming at you, see where you’re putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go.

PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we’re not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn’t say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that.

ANNA: For sure.

PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we’re asking questions.

ANNA: Right. And we’re less willing to even talk about it. I think we’re less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they’re sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there.

PAM: Because you don’t want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like.

ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they’re sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that’s not the energy we want with these people that we love. That’s not at all. And it’s absolutely something we can change, even if it’s something we’ve done historically, we can absolutely change it.

And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they’re doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms?

So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it’s impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different. 

PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it’s internal. It’s something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while.

ANNA: We don’t have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, “Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me.” And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that’s another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well.

So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we’ve been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye!

PAM: Bye!

On this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the immense value of celebrating interests. As humans, what we are interested in really makes us who we are as individuals. When we celebrate and show interest in the things that our children and partners love, our relationships deepen. Our loved ones feel seen and understood when we take the time to learn more about their interests and share in their joys. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

Spinning a Web episode 323 – Pam’s talk about how learning can look in unschooling

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both! 

So, in this episode, we are going to be talking about the value of intentionally celebrating our child’s interests, because there can definitely be more to that than meets the eye. But before we dive in, I would like to take a moment to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.

There is just so much value in walking alongside others on our journey, particularly on more unconventional journeys like unschooling, because we don’t see a lot of it happening in our everyday life. Because while everyone’s journey is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges and that is where the power of community shines in feeling seen and heard. In the network you will learn from the experiences of other parents who are on similar journeys.

You can draw inspiration from their a-ha moments. You can gain insight from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their family’s needs every day. It’s just so fun. I know my kids are all adults. I still love going in there and seeing what people are doing because it’s the energy, it’s the creativity, it just opens things up for me every time I visit. So, to learn more and join us just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the top menu. We look forward to welcoming you. And Anna, would you like to get us started on celebrating interests?

ANNA: I would, thank you so much. I love thinking about the ways to celebrate the people in our lives, especially our children. I have a favorite quote from our friend Anne Ohman. Years ago, we made it into a bumper sticker. And so, I’m going to read that to you. 

“Today I will connect with my children, bring joy into their lives, nurture and encourage what they love to do, and celebrate them for being exactly who they are.” 

And celebrating our kids and what they’re interested in is such a great place to start because we really can feel misunderstood and even judged if someone makes light of or disregards something that we love and we can feel so seen and supported when they show interest in it and in us.

Because a big part of who we are is made up of the things that we love and the things that we do. When someone criticizes something we love, it feels like they’re criticizing us. The thought process is kind of, I love this thing, they’re saying I shouldn’t or I shouldn’t be doing it, is there something wrong with me? And it starts to sow that seed of doubt and it disconnects us from our inner voice. 

When the people in our lives celebrate our interests, it makes a difference in cultivating our inner voice and learning to trust ourselves. It’s also just a great way to learn about our kids or our partners. As we lean into learning more about their interests, we see what draws them into it. So instead of thinking well they just love video games, what kind of games? What is it about the games? Is it the art, the music, the story, the action, the excitement of it? Learning the lingo and what’s going on helps us celebrate and have that deeper conversation with them. And really that goes for all kinds of interests.

I have this young friend who’s into hobby horses. So yes, this is an actual thing. There is a World Hobby Horsing Championship. It’s in Europe. The hobby horses are these elaborate handmade, that in itself is art, beautiful kind of horse heads on a stick. The events involve people riding these hobby horses over jumps and obstacles. It gets so athletic. It’s like, who knew this? I did not.

But I love learning about it and seeing the joy that it brings to her and really this whole community of people across the world that are into this thing that I didn’t even know existed. It’s fun, right? The art of it’s beautiful. The athleticism is beautiful. The joy from the kids is beautiful.

But sometimes if someone has an interest that maybe is a little bit harder for me to understand, I look at them. Because they’re important to me, right? This is a person that I care about. And so I get excited about their excitement. I can join that fun energy of someone doing something that they love. That excitement is contagious if we just open ourselves to it, even just a tiny bit.

Because I truly want people in my life to feel loved and celebrated. And it’s such an easy gift to give. And I have just found it deepens those connections in such a beautiful, beautiful way.

ERIKA: Oh, I love that so much. I feel like people’s interests are so important. It’s so core to who they are as people. And so, if we can see that and say, I see what you love and I appreciate that you love it. It feels so good. It feels like being seen. It feels like being understood. And I love that part that you talked about with the lingo.

Because that has been so huge for my relationships with my kids to be able to speak the same language that they speak about the things that they love. So, it’s things like learning about the characters, learning about the stories, being interested when they’re sharing about the things that they love so much. And I see that when I am able to remember the little details about the things that they’ve told me in the past, how much that helps them feel connected to me and like I’m with them, that I support them. And so, I just really do put a huge value in learning about their interests and celebrating their interests. 

And I remember, I think it was a recent network call that we had where one parent shared that they had played Minecraft along with their kids, which was kind of challenging because it’s hard to dive into Minecraft as a new Minecraft player. And especially if your kids are quite advanced and you’re just kind of trying to figure it out.

A lot of these interests might not make a lot of sense to our brains. Maybe they’re things that I would never choose to spend time on if it were up to me. But what it showed was that taking that little bit of time to be like, okay, I’m in here, show me what to do.

You know, really giving it a try was just such a connecting moment for them. And so I just love that. Even if it feels a little bit out of our comfort zones, even if we don’t quite understand it, I think there’s just so much value in making that time to try to learn that little bit more and show interest.

PAM: Yeah. And I think for me, when I think back to when the kids first came home from school, I had that mindset of not so much judging the interests, but varying the value that I placed on them, right? Video games were at the lower end of something that yeah, you like that thing. That’s great. You enjoy it. But, I couldn’t lean into celebrating it as much as something that looked more, whatever, you know, I can’t even come up with a word for now, like it was more culturally valued.

So because, we’ve talked about before, the values and the things that were the way we are placing things in our life, in our context, are those from outer voices or from inner voices? So that was a really helpful step, just taking the time to recognize where I might be judging things. And when I first came home, I was still looking through the lens of subjects, like is Minecraft math?

Then I can tick off the math box when they’re playing Minecraft or, you know, that kind of stuff. So it was really beautiful to be encouraged, not only to celebrate their interests, but as you were saying, not judging them at all, like this is something interesting to you. Therefore it’s interesting, just full stop there.

I don’t need to justify it before I can celebrate it. I can just go right to celebrating it, right? And absolutely you just learned so much about who they are as a person, what they’re loving, what they’re loving about it.

Because in so many things, there are different aspects of it. And maybe one side’s challenging, maybe one side’s not so fun, but the stuff that they are getting out of it makes it worth coming back to it again and again. So it’s just so interesting and so fun after a few months, a few years to look back and see how their interests have kind of morphed and changed.

And you can start to see the thread that kind of goes foundationally. Oh, there’s also that aspect that shows up in this interest that just may seem totally random looking back if we’re just looking at what the literal interest is. But when we have those conversations, we learn that language, we know the bits and pieces that are exciting them.

We can really see what is foundationally them, because we can see that bit attracting them to all sorts of different interests.

ANNA: Yes, it’s so fun. And I think that’s a really good point. Because if we’re just looking at the interest kind of at surface value, we are missing that it’s building blocks to other things, right?

And so, again, it may be that the art or the music that’s attracting them to this particular video game, and maybe that morphs into actually doing some physical art or some digital art or into making music or to understanding different things about it. But we can really stuff that down if we’re judging it, if it’s coming with this judgmental lens, because the judgment’s so surface level, right? It’s really up here.

It’s not getting excited and understanding what’s lighting them up about it. We really only see those things in looking back a very long time, really. So there’s a trust piece, which I get can be hard because, well, it’s a trust piece.

But I just think about how many adults I work with, adults I know in my family, I’m thinking of my brother and in more extended family that really had these strong, passionate interests that didn’t fit the mold of what people thought they should do. And so they pivoted from that and did the more conventional thing that they were supposed to do. And it’s decades later, where they’re thinking, I hate this.

Why am I doing this? Why do I have this job? And it seems dramatic that it’s coming from this, but it is, had someone seen them and seen how art was such an important part of their life, and had really gotten excited and maybe brought more of that in, what a different path that would have looked like.

So I do feel like if we can shut off that part of our brain that’s judging or thinking, how does it look to the outside and just get curious. I mean, here we go again. I feel like we always talk about the same thing, but just create space, just get curious.

I think you’ll see all these interests, how they weave together and how it’s all a part of growth. And my friend Pat always says, you can take any interest and really see the whole world from it. I think you even have an article, don’t you, Pam?

Everything can come from one thing. And that really opens us up, I think, as parents to recognize it. So we’ll link that too in the show notes, because I think it’s a really valuable paradigm shift. It can be this really specific interest of hobby horsing that leads to, geography and horses and sewing and this and that and art and all the things from this one, what would seem a very niche interest.

ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. Once you have that belief of, okay, we can learn anything through any interest that they have, then it makes it so that everything’s valid. And I’m not going to be afraid to support any interest.

And so I’m just imagining how cool would it be if all parents could just be encouraging their kids in the thing that right now the kid is the most interested in? How powerful that could be? Because there’s a reason why that particular interest is speaking to them so strongly right now.

There’s a reason why they keep bringing it up and keep wanting to do it. It’s doing something for them. It’s working with their brains and their personalities.

And it’s kind of reminding me of when we talk about being true to ourselves. And so if you get that chance to really listen to what you are interested in as a person, individual, unique person with your personality, you learn so much more about yourself. And then everything that happens from that point is more aligned with who you are.

And so if we give our children that chance, they can really dive deep into this thing that they love the most. Okay, now they’re meeting other people who are interested in the thing they love the most. They’re making connections that work better for them.

They’re able to learn better because when you’re learning something you love. Learning happens more easily and naturally than if we’re trying to pull ourselves away to something that people think we should be doing. And so I think if we can really just sink into all interests lead down a path that can be valuable for that individual person, then we can stop judging our kids and just lean into supporting them to go down that path.

PAM: Yeah, I love that so much. It’s beautiful. And I think that’s the next step that I want to make sure to repeat, that you both talked about it.

But just to be really intentional that celebrating interest isn’t just about going okay, I’m so glad. It can be so much more. It can be in the conversations, or if they’re not much of a chatter. It’s in just observing when they’re watching that favorite show doing that favorite activity, which parts of it, light them up more like when you really see them light up what’s going on in that moment? They’re still communicating to you, even if they can’t sit down and nail off for you that this is my favorite part. Maybe you have those conversations, but it’s okay if you don’t.

But finding those pieces that light them up and then getting creative, where might that also exist in other places? Maybe it’s really close. Maybe it’s something that might be quite different from that, but might give that same sense of that same energy, or that same piece.

And it can just be so fascinating if we share that without expectation or judgment, to see if that connects, do they even want to try it? How does that unfold? If they don’t like it, yes, or no, or maybe, we’re learning every moment, right?

And they are learning too, because they’re like, Oh, do I? No, I don’t want to do that. They took a moment to consider that.

So helping them explore their interest in interesting ways can be so helpful. That is the learning that is so fun to just see in action. Because yes, even when they’re super frustrated, they will come back to it if it’s meaningful, right?

If it’s something that’s really speaking to them. And just to see them putting those pieces together and they’re exploring the window. Yes, passions are a window to the world, and that is how they’re putting together their web of learning, the context around this thing that is really interesting to them, right? So like, if it’s a particular game, you can get more of exactly the same kind of game, but you can also get a game that also has this aspect of it and try that out.

And being there with them and just like, It’s so fun!

ANNA: It’s just so much fun. It is and I love that piece of, are there ways we can find that bring this interest in? I mean, from little things like finding a plushie of a game that maybe is not easy to find and we have to figure out how to ship from Japan, a plushie from a game that they love. Or, oh, it’s this aspect that they really enjoy, the video game symphony stuff, that was really fun, because it’s something that they enjoyed, this music piece, and it was music they knew and that they had enjoyed. So, those are things that they may not know exist in those moments. 

And again, having no attachment to it, but just saying, “Hey, I saw this, and it kind of reminded me of this thing you love.” And they may say yes or no, we don’t have to have attachment to that. But it’s fun to just think of, how can we boost somebody up along their journey? How can we add things to it that make it fun? 

And something you said, Erika, that I wanted to pull out to is, that piece of when we’re doing something that we’re really interested in, that’s really important to us, we will actually push harder to learn something that’s maybe trickier, or that we’re struggling with a little bit more, but it’ll have a very different flavor than if somebody is forcing us to do something that isn’t clicking with us, right? Because then it just feels arbitrary. “Why am I having to do this? It makes no sense.” 

But if it’s like, Oh, I really want to understand how to put these pieces together to make this thing that’s so important to me that I want to take to this comic con or this place or this thing, so different.

And so I think watch for that, because sometimes we’ll hear feedback from parents, but they get so frustrated. And I’m like, right, they’re working through those pieces. How cool is it for them to figure out how to handle the frustration of that and practice that and try to move through it and see all those opportunities. We always want the kids to stick with things, but we don’t want them to stick with it if it’s something we’re not judging as okay to stick with. And so, letting go of all that and just celebrating and looking at your child or partner, anybody in front of you.

Everybody really feels great when they’re seen and heard around these things that they love. So yeah, I hope people can feel the energy of it because I think it just really, it’s fun.

ERIKA: It’s so fun. And okay, so this part is less fun, but it came to mind, which is let’s not take over their interests. Because that can happen, especially if we get very excited about celebrating their interests. We may think we know the part that they like the best, and we get really excited to push them down that path, because it’s so great and fun.

But then maybe that’s not what they actually want to do. Or maybe we’re pushing them faster than they would have gone on their own. And so, I think there’s nuance to this, supporting their interests. And I have definitely swung too far to that side sometimes with my excitement. And so like, it’s all about being attuned to what they’re showing us. And so, I want to meet their energy. I don’t want to drive them forward with what I think about their interests. 

And then I was also thinking about, you know, just financially supporting their interests. Sometimes that could come up as a bit of a rub, if it’s something that we’re not seeing as valuable. And so, again, I think it would just be about realizing there’s value in this for them, and making the decision to support an interest, even if it doesn’t quite make sense to us, can really pay off in the long run. And so, seeing it more as like investing in them and their own development along their path, rather than, oh, I’m just, you know, such a fan of whatever horror video games and so I really want to buy all of them, which I don’t really want to. But separating my own taste and my own opinions about things from the things that they’re really loving.

PAM: Yeah, that is a big part of it. And I find that when we are diving into that, that’s such an important piece to separate out, our feelings from it, and not jumping ahead, so when we’re really excited about it, and we jump in and energetically take over, because we’re excited. Not only are we happy that they’re interested in something, we literally share this interest, and this was our path, and we want to help them go through that. But that’s what I love about the metaphor of the web of learning. We’re trying to get them to jump. We’re trying to put our web on top of their web, or life, a better word.

And so, on their journey, that might be four or five points out, where for us, that maybe was just one or two, or in our excitement, maybe three, because we just want them to know where we’re going. “Isn’t that awesome?” And yeah, that we can often stifle the interest, because we’re not letting them make their connections the way it makes the most sense to them.

So, we can be stepping on their learning. And maybe that can be a lens at first that helps most to bring your energy to it, because in celebrating their interest, you’re celebrating their learning. And so, then, yes, on the opposite side, knowing that we can also stop their learning, when we start putting it through a filter of what we kind of agree with, don’t agree with, or like, oh, this is gonna cost a little bit, or will take up more time, which I don’t feel comfortable with.

And then I’ll just rationalize it or justify it rather than leaning in getting open and curious, bringing my context piece, maybe I don’t have a lot of time right now, or money, or whatever it is. But instead of putting the kibosh on it, or saying not right now, we can lean in, because maybe even just talking about it, and celebrating the idea of it can help keep the energy moving forward on it and they’ll also be picking up the context of everything. It’s a window to the world, just navigating through something that we want to do. We learn so much doing that as well, don’t we?

ANNA: Yeah, oh my goodness. But yeah, making it about us, that’s a really important one, because I get excited. But it doesn’t need to be about me. If I want to pursue it, I can do that separately. It really is, like you said, kind of matching their energy, really letting them take the lead. Because like you said, Pam, they’re putting pieces together in a way that makes sense for their brain, not necessarily a way that makes sense for my brain.

And so, I can be excited about watching that process. That’s how I could tone that down a little bit. It’s like, oh, I’m curious to see where they’ll go with this, or what that will be. And that would allow me to have my excitement, but not start lawnmowing their way through so that they’re like, wait a minute, what’s happening here? 

And oh gosh, there was one other thought that you were saying. So, this is a little bit on the darker side too, but watching for maybe we’re not criticizing an interest, but are we celebrating in line with what we want them to do, right? And so, just watching for that. I think that is important because, oh, this interest, this we could get behind because everybody’s going to love the pictures from this or the idea of what this is. This is conventional or accepted.

Watching for, are we really celebrating all those moments? Are we looking to them and what is actually bubbling up for them and being excited, whether it looks like a photo op or not? And I think that can just be an important thing to kind of check in ourselves because it’s nice when they have a hobby that then the grandparents will like. And I want to make sure they’re feeling seen about all the pieces that are interesting them.

PAM: Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us. We hope you enjoyed our conversation about celebrating interests. And maybe you have some ideas, a little spark of getting a little curious about what your kids are into and just the fun of just creatively trying to come up with what else might be interesting for them. 

And we also hope you consider joining us in the Living Joyfully Network to dive into these kinds of ideas and conversations with other kind and thoughtful unschooling parents. It will add a depth and richness to your journey that I really do feel you’ll deeply appreciate. And we are excited to welcome you to learn more and join us. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community tab in the menu. We also invite you to check out our Substack When School Isn’t Working. It’s also a great resource to share with friends who are feeling stuck and might just be open to considering these ideas. We wish everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much, you guys!

In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Lucy AitkenRead in 2017. At the time, Lucy unschools her two children and blogs at Lulastic and the Hippyshake. Pam and Lucy talked about her family’s move to unschooling, the hardest parts of her journey, the most surprising bits, as well her husband’s journey to unschooling.

We hope you enjoy the conversation!

QUESTIONS FOR LUCY

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

How did you discover unschooling?

What has your family’s move to unschooling looked like?

Can you share a bit about your husband’s journey? Was unschooling new to him? If so, how did you help him learn more about it?

What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?

What has surprised you most about your journey so far?

You recently started a group and website called Parent Allies. I’d love to know the inspiration behind it and a bit about your plans!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

John Holt’s book, How Children Learn

Elisabeth Young-Bruehl’s book, Childism: Confronting Prejudice Against Children

Lucy’s blog, Lulastic and the Hippyshake and her YouTube channel.

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca, and today I’m here with Lucy AitkenRead. Hi Lucy!

LUCY: Hi Pam! How you going?

PAM: I’m going very well. Just to let everyone know, Lucy is an unschooling mom of two kids, and I have been following her adventures online for quite a while now, including her family’s experiences living in a yurt in New Zealand, and now their travels back to the UK. So, I’m really looking forward to diving into her unschooling and deschooling experiences at this point on her journey.

To get us started Lucy, can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

LUCY: Yes, of course. So, I’m Lucy and I’m married to Tim. And he is a Kiwi, but we spent most of our early marriage in London, where I’m from. And that’s where we had both of our daughters: Ramona who is now six, and Juno who is four. We lived really happily, living quite a normal life I suppose, in London, until a couple years ago when we decided to sort of up sticks and move to a forest in New Zealand, where we now live in a yurt.

PAM: That is so awesome Lucy. And I’m sure you’re going to share some amusing stories from that time as we go through this.

Can share with us how you actually discovered unschooling? How’d you come across it?

LUCY: Well yeah, it’s quite interesting for me, because I guess, deep in my heart, I’m a bit of a socialist, and I always really held onto the idea of school as being a really important common good, and that my children would definitely go to school. We would support that school. Because education is something that every child deserves, and people who are able to input into their local schools, it’s a really great thing that we should support. Basically, I had a really strong belief around that.

And then I had my children, and my first child Ramona really took me on a huge learning curve, I guess. She’s a child who is just incredibly spirited, and I believe that her spirited nature caused me to ask a lot of questions about how I wanted to raise my children.

When our second child Juno was born, we sold everything in our London home and we sold our London home, and we packed our bags into a VW camper van and we went traveling around Europe. And someone had given me John Holt’s How Children Learn, you know, which is always a slippery slope when you pick up a John Holt book, I think.

So, I was kind of reading this probably a little skeptically, but also knowing that I was already raising Ramona in quite a radically different way to how I thought I would. I guess my mind was already beginning to open about some of these ideas about raising children respectfully, for sure.

But then we went to a forest kindergarten in the Black Forest, in Germany, as part of our big trip around Europe, which we were doing. We’d set aside six months to do that. And then we got to this forest kindergarten, and I was reading How Children Learn, and I think it just was like a potent combination for my mind.

I was reading John Holt, and seeing all of these children around me, basically just unschooling in the great outdoors. There are teachers there, and they’re well trained teachers, but they see themselves much more as facilitators for a child’s own learning. And yeah, it was just so incredible to see it in real life in action, exactly what John Holt is talking about. I guess that was the moment when I knew that we would be unschoolers, and that all these ideas I held about school weren’t actually necessarily going to be the reality for my family.

And so, then we ended up back in New Zealand with our kids, and even though Ramona was only three at that stage, and Juno was a tiny baby, we rocked up in New Zealand and immediately attended an unschooling camp. And there were 150 people there, and we just kind of arrived and we felt like we’d found our people. This is a community that we wanted to stay within and raise our children within. So, I guess that’s the story.

PAM: How did you hear about the camp? Was it just random?

LUCY: I googled it, yeah. I actually googled “unschooling NZ,” and instead of any websites coming up or any groups or resources, there was just an event detailing where to turn up and how much to pay. And we were like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Google had spoken. (laughter)

PAM: And that is such a nice introduction—actually in person. I know when I first came across unschooling, it was all online. There wasn’t like local gatherings that I knew of. All those connections came so fast and made so much sense, at the point that I was there. But definitely seeing it in action would be a nice introduction, right?

LUCY: Yeah, it was really, really cool. And there were definitely a few moments where we were like, “Oh! That’s interesting!” It wasn’t at all like, “Oh we do everything exactly this way.” It wasn’t at all like that.

But it was the community that really inspired us, I guess. We really just felt at home within the way that adults were interacting with the children, because that was something we really felt certain about at that stage. We really knew that we wanted to be parents that interacted with our children in a really respectful kind of democratic way, I suppose. And that is what we saw there.

And that was probably the magic for us, that made us go, “Ah! Yeah, this is something we’re going to really dive into.” And now we actually go to between four and five unschooling camps a year. They’re a really important part of our family’s unschooling framework, I guess. And all of that. Just a whole massive group of people just being in their element for a few days and every season. We make it happen come hell or high water.

PAM: That’s awesome. And you mentioned there too that already before you even came across John Holt etc., that your parenting was less mainstream, right? So, you were kind of already primed for that. You noticed the difference in the relationships even just at camp, even if some of the details still weren’t … ready for you.

Because it really is a journey, isn’t it? I remember at first I would read about unschooling and I’d think, “Well, you know, it’s super cool. So much of it makes sense. You know, this little bit … I don’t think we’ll do that. I don’t think we’ll be doing that.” But as the months went by and I learned more and more and I understood why they were doing that, it really was a journey. Because it’s like, “Oh, of course I’m going to do that!” Right? (laughs)

LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I see it a lot. Like with my writing, I’ll be writing about some sort of specific and then people will really kind of grab hold of that specific and be like, “I can’t see how that can possibly work, da da da da da.” And it’s like, well I guess it really does only work when you look at the whole picture. It’s sort of like people really want the detail, but, I mean, the devil is in it. The devil in the detail.

It’s not really so much about the very specific practical details as much as the big picture of the life you’re trying to lead, which is one where you’re not making decisions based on fear, but you’re making decisions based on connection. And having that overall philosophy is what makes then the details make sense.

PAM: So true.

LUCY: I don’t know if I made sense. (laughs)

PAM: It did! Absolutely. Because, if you look for the details too quickly, I think there’s a tendency to kind of interpret them like the rules of unschooling, right?

LUCY: Yeah.

PAM: “Tell me exactly what you do each day and I will do that.” But it might not work in your family. Because it’s all about how the individuals relate to each other, and how the individuals like to pursue their interests and everything. So, what my day looks like isn’t going to look like anyone else’s, right?

LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right.

So, let’s talk a little more about your family’s move to unschooling. You went to the camp, and it made sense, it connected, you guys loved that. Did your days just kind of keep on going, or how did that work?

LUCY: Yeah, yes, basically nothing changed, I guess. We just kept on just living our life. And that’s the thing that, you know, because we’ve never been to school, we just keep living our life, and nothing has really changed much at all. So, the life that we were living with our children age one and three is now pretty similar to age six and four, really.

I guess they’re way more vocal in what they want to do. But we still just go about living our lives, all of us ticking away, following our little hopes and dreams each day. Yeah, there’s not been any momentous shift I don’t think, since that camp. It’s just been living each day as it comes to us.

PAM: So you just kind of kept on keeping on. That’s awesome.

LUCY: Kept on keeping on. Yeah.

PAM: Yeah. Have your kids mentioned school at all?

LUCY: Ramona does sort of every now and then mention school. And it’s nearly always when there’s been a bit of time in our life where we’ve been quite farm-bound, for whatever reason. She’s an incredibly social kid, and I think sometimes when we drive past a playground she’ll see the hundreds of kids kind of just running around there, and she’ll think, “Oh, I’d do really well in that situation.”

So, we tend to work really hard at getting her enough of that social interaction. And when that’s going really well, she doesn’t mention school, or she knows that she’s getting all her social needs met. And every now and then when she does pop out with this sort of question about school, I can almost always look around us and see that we maybe dropped going to something, or we’ve been a little bit caught up with all our farm chores and haven’t quite managed to meet up with as many people as we usually do, or that sort of thing.

And one of her best friends started going to school for a couple of weeks, and she was quite intrigued by school at that point, which was really interesting for us. It was somebody that we live on the farm with, and they’re an unschooling family, but their boy wanted to give it a go. And so, they did, and that was really interesting, because I guess we had to ask ourselves the question, would Ramona go to school if she wanted it?

And we sort of did a bit of soul searching about that, around that time. And then he decided it wasn’t actually all that. You know, he liked having a lunch box and he liked having play dates after school, and his mum realized that both of those things could be done outside of a school context. And he didn’t like being told what to do, when, and where. And he really quickly just went back to being at home on the farm. And then that moment just kind of disappeared. But it still was an interesting one, to figure out whether, in your unschooling family, you would be willing to support a child going to school.

PAM: Yeah, when it first gets mentioned, it can knock you off a bit, just because you feel like, “Well, what am I not doing? What’s wrong? Am I failing? Am I not doing it right?” So, it takes that soul searching—that work to get past that reaction—and realize, this isn’t personal.

But, like you said, it’s a great clue to start looking around, you know, and you see that that question—it might be just the solution that they see to a need that’s missing. Right? Like you said. Maybe it’s a need for some more social interaction, and they’re not going to come to you: “Mom, I need more social interaction.” But she may see in her mind that playground full of kids at school and think, “School is a good solution.” And then come at it that way.

So, I think the first thing is to look around, like you do, and see if there’s any clues to what need they’re trying to fill with that. Because then from there, you can say, “Well maybe the need is, literally, to check out school.” Maybe. But it might not be. There might be a million other ways to meet whatever it is that they want. It’s a hard time, but it’s so interesting, and when you can get past that initial fear, it’s a big release to do that soul-searching, figure that out, because you’re in a stronger place, aren’t you?

LUCY: Yeah, definitely. And I think it might—who is it—it might be Peter Gray. Let me have a little bit of a think about that. But someone speaks about this idea that if a child really wants to go to school and they don’t get to go to school, they might forever feel like school was a club that they weren’t allowed in. And that is probably something to worry about more than your child actually going to school and you being merely kind of phlegmatic about it.

I kind of came to two conclusions, I suppose, with this whole soul-searching period. And that was: I really felt like six is too young to make a decision to put yourself into a situation that so drastically impacts your family’s circumstances, and your own well-being. And I do think that school really does impact a child’s well-being. And I guess I decided that I wanted to try and protect Ramona from that, for as long as I could, until she made it really clear that it is school that she’s after. I would try to meet her needs as much as I could, and then, if it still is school, I would support her to do that, but I would do it in a way that supported her as a person, without making all of the school’s toxicness something that impacts her. So, I’d be very nonchalant, shall we say, about testing and exams and homework. You know, all of that stuff I’d just hold really lightly, but support her in going to school, if it really was the need that she had to do that.

PAM: Yeah, and I think that’s such an important point, because you’re so right about the atmosphere, the environment, and the effect that it can have on a child. And to realize that it can be such a different experience for a child if we choose not to bring all that home, right? If we don’t buy into, “I need to be on top of them at home to study,” and to use the grades as a judgement of them, and everything. Rather than, just, it’s a place they go for a few hours, and did they have fun? And supporting them if they’re like, “Mom, I have a test this week. I’d like to study. Can you help me study?” or something. Of course, you’re going to help them—

LUCY: Totally.

PAM: Yeah! Because I can see, if we’re still feeling resentful about their choice—like it was a choice against us—how we could so easily, “Well, you chose school, you have to finish your homework.” You know, to make it as bad as it can be, in hopes that they’ll leave. But that’s just going to hurt!

LUCY: Yeah, and I guess that’s why I really like to take the school out of unschooling, you know. And I suppose it’s why I talk more about this other concept, which we might address later on—because for me, it’s not about education or even learning actually, but it’s more about the relationship that you have with your child. So, if there’s any one thing that you’re totally hung up on, it’s a good sign that it’s moved away from being about the important partnership you have with your child and it’s become an unhealthy fixation or something, do you know what I mean?

PAM: Yeah, yeah. We talk on our Q&A episodes so much about whenever there’s an issue, go back to the relationship. Does this feel connecting, or disconnecting? And choose the actions that feel connecting. Because no matter the environment, you’re right, it really does all boil down to relationships. And you know what, during my deschooling—though that keeps going—but that realization.

Because, at first, my kids left school, and it’s like, “Okay, so I’m replacing the learning that they’re not getting at school.” But, the realization after a few months that it’s not really about the learning. Because the learning’s going to naturally happen if I keep the relationships strong and connected; everything’s going to flow from there. So, I love that point.

I was wondering if you might share a little bit about your husband’s journey. Was unschooling a new kind of idea for him, and how did you guys work together along the way?

LUCY: Okay so, unsurprisingly my husband is a teacher by trade, and I say unsurprisingly because I know a huge number of teachers in the unschooling world.

PAM: So many. (laughs)

LUCY: Yeah, it’s like as if their experience in the classroom, you know, actually is the thing that opens their eyes and says there has to be a better way to treat our children and for our children to learn in a really joyful way.

So, Tim is a teacher by trade, and he did that for quite a few years, but these days he focuses more on a bit of youth work. Which, for him, is what it was all about. It was being able to help young people find their way in the world by having really healthy connections and relationships with them.

So, yeah, teacher by trade, and he really gets the learning stuff, for sure. Like we check in, not formally, but just by nature of the whole thing, once or twice a month about little interesting learning points that have happened with Ramona and Juno. And I guess that his teacher training makes him do that perhaps more than me. So, he’ll point out something that Ramona’s done, which is such a classic learning point, but that she’s come to it completely by herself using an everyday situation. Yeah, so he’s completely on board with the learning side of it, and I guess both of us are still on this learning journey about living democratically and consensually with our children.

We’re both trying really hard to read as much as we can and talk together as much as we can. And I guess the challenge is constantly how in a family of four you can all feel as though your needs can be met, and that it can be win-win for everyone.

PAM: Yeah, I think the parenting side of the journey, that we’re always learning because they’re always getting older.

LUCY: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right.

PAM: There’s always something new.

LUCY: Yeah, I do like to think though that every bit of learning you’ve done paves the way for the next bit of learning. And, right now, with the kind of really incredibly amazing and opinionated and determined six-year-old, I’m thinking about how much this is paving the way for those incredibly opinionated and determined teenage years. (laughs)

We’re going to be just like so radically on board with everything they want to do by the time they’re teenagers, because we’ll have developed this sort of trust and acceptance. So, I’m quite excited about the future really, or maybe that’s just incredibly hopeful.

PAM: Well, I’ll just share my experience a little bit. The groundwork that you’re laying now and those first couple of years of really doing all this work to figure out the ways we all communicate our needs—it’s even about figuring out our needs, because we’re not used to that. Even as adults, to be able to just reasonably say, “I’m tired.” Or, to really bring ourselves to the moment without being manipulative about it.

LUCY: Yeah.

PAM: Yeah, to just bring all our stuff lightly, like you were talking about before, and finding ways to work through them and find those kind of win-win-win opportunities for us to move forward.

And I must say, by the time my kids got to their early teens and through their teen years, it was never argumentative. It was never issues that way at all. Mostly it was me stretching my comfort zones. (laughs)

Because they knew themselves so well, and the trust that we had together. Like, I knew they weren’t making choices or wanting to do things that they didn’t think they were capable of doing. There’s the way to put it. They were choosing things for reasons of their own, that made sense, and that they felt ready to do. So, when I was ready to stretch my comfort zones and help them accomplish those things, we were never at odds. It was all finding ways for myself to support them in ways that I was also comfortable enough with.

When my daughter was 13 and wanted to go into clubs for shows, for me to be comfortable I just said, “Sure, I’ll go with you.” You know? So, we did that. But yeah, it never felt like butting heads, let’s put it that way. So, I think you’re right. That was a long way to say you’re right, you’re building an amazing foundation. (laughs)

LUCY: (laughs) No, I always absolutely love hearing from people who have older children and who have been through those teenage years, because we talk about those teenage years as if it’s some kind of impending horror show I suppose.

And, I mean, I suppose mine was a little bit of a horror show for my parents, but I had an incredibly different upbringing. But I really believe it doesn’t have to be that way. I really believe that this partnership that we’re developing with our kids now is something that lasts your whole life long, and one of the things as well I think that unschooling has done for me—it’s made me trust everyone a lot more.

My children have asked that of me, but it’s something that I can extend now to everyone. I’ve become much, much, much less controlling about all these different situations. Like I can remember in the early years of our marriage, I would be texting everyone trying to get them in the right place at the right time, and kind of guessing what people’s needs were, and trying to kind of preempt how we could get them met. And I would just never do that now. I just sort of sit back and see how I could support someone to get their needs met, or, perhaps I can’t, and just need to trust that they’re making good decisions for themselves. And that’s something that you know extends from my children to my in-laws to my neighbor. It kind of is a really cool stance for all relationships, I think.

PAM: I just love that Lucy. And what’s really funny is I’m writing a book about the unschooling journey, and this is what I’ve been writing about this week!

LUCY: Oh, cool.

PAM: Yeah, that point where you realize it’s about being human, and it applies to everyone. And you lose that need to try and control other people “for their own good because you know the best way things will work out so smoothly.”

Because, after you do it a few times, isn’t it just amazing all the places that the ways things end up working out, like even better than we could have imagined at first, right? And tried to control it to A, but B was so much more awesome!

LUCY: I know! Like seriously, I talk about this a huge amount. Like the ridiculousness of taking a step back and just being like, “Look, I’m not going to get involved in this, I’m just going to see what happens.” And then the thing that happens is so much more better than anything you could have planned for. Yeah, it’s actually, it feels serendipitous. But maybe it’s because it’s the way the world is meant to work. You’re not meant to be hung up on everybody else’s choices. (laughter)

It sounds so obvious when we’re talking about it, but it’s really not obvious. And I think I had quite a few anguished years because I felt that I had an important role to play in lots of other people’s lives.

PAM: Oh no, I totally can remember just the uptightness back then, of trying to make sure everything worked out. That there needed to be Plan XYZ, and we need to follow it, and if we didn’t I was getting myself so frustrated and worked up. But anyway, anyway. (laughs) I guess we don’t need to talk about that forever. But it’s such a huge part …

LUCY: We probably can.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. I mean we could share a million stories I’m sure. But …

I was wondering what you have found to be the most challenging or the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?

LUCY: (pauses)

PAM: Or was that it? (laughs)

LUCY: Oh, well, that’s been like a definite shift.

The hardest challenge? Probably it’s not the hardest thing but the challenging thing has been: I guess unschooling has taken me on a journey to sort of ask questions about all sorts of different things and to really try and dismantle institutionalized thinking. And it’s a journey that I’m really appreciative of, but it’s been a journey that has definitely shaken the ground beneath my feet a little bit.

I was raised in a church, and I was raised in the Salvation Army, which is a really beautiful social justice loving movement of people, but it’s also quite regimented, or ordered, at least. And it’s been interesting for me to sort of look at institutions that I’ve been raised in, that have always provided a sort of structure to my life, and just try and hold on to the really good and beautiful parts of those things while really asking questions about the healthiness of other parts of it. And I guess what it comes down to is this sort of imperialist history of the human race, which is quite a big deal. Maybe we shouldn’t really go there. (laughter)

But when you look historically, the last hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, we’ve been living in an incredibly controlled hierarchical society, that is really, really unhealthy. And I guess that was an unexpected challenge for me, was to become a bit of an anarchist. I mean, not quite an anarchist, but to just want to dismantle some of those structures in society that I don’t think are very healthy. And move away from those that have had a really important role in my life. So yeah, that’s probably been the biggest challenge, I think.

PAM: I think that’s a great one, because when we start, we don’t realize how far reaching it’s going to be, do we?

LUCY: No.

PAM: No, it’s amazing once you start realizing that choice is important. Not only for learning, but then for living. And when you start to see, you start to knock up against all these places where, like you said, the systems where we don’t have choice. And you start questioning every single one, don’t you, by the end of it?

LUCY: Yeah and I think I just say to myself, “Lucy, you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water.” (laughs)

PAM: Yup.

LUCY: So, you know, with the church, I guess where I’m at now is holding on to really healthy spirituality, which is really beautiful and really important, I think, whatever your spirituality is, for your well-being. And community and all that sort of thing. So, holding on to that. And then kind of letting the rest of it blow away. So yes, I say that a lot. “Don’t throw away the baby out with the bath water, Luce.”

PAM: That is such a great point, that was something that helped me. Because feeling uncomfortable with something didn’t automatically mean to reject it. Which I think lines up with your “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” phrasing. And to be able to hold my discomfort alongside my positive feelings about choice and whatever, so that I could dig deeper.

Like, when you can hold them both together, that’s when you can start to tease out the pieces that are helpful, like you were saying, alongside the pieces that aren’t working for me anymore. Because automatic resistance or knee-jerk “noes” aren’t much more useful than blindly following things either, right? Because you don’t understand yourself better through that process. We talk about that with our kids, right? Try not to automatically say no. Maybe you can say yes, but also, “Say yes more with your kids,” doesn’t mean always say yes. Because there’s no thought or consideration in that either, right?

LUCY: Yeah, but we so want black and white answers, don’t we?

PAM: I know, we do!

LUCY: (laughs)

PAM: Those rules are so easy, right? (laughs)

LUCY: Yeah, we just want it there in black and white. We just want to be able to go, like, “This is how it goes, this is the rule, this is what I need to do in this situation.” Yeah, but it’s just not really how we are, and it’s not really how the world should be. We need to kind of learn to operate in those gray areas, and to be flexible and fluid and resilient, and not need that sort of sturdy ground under our feet, but to feel really comfortable just floating in the chaotic unknown gray substance. (laughs)

PAM: Yeah, and like you said before, going back to the relationship, right? When you don’t know—yes, no, I have no rule to follow. Okay, let’s look and see foundationally how that is going to impact that relationship. Because, when it comes down to it, school years, childhood, those are just a flash of a lifetime right? And these are relationships that we’re going to have for our whole lifetime. They will always be our child. We’ll always be their parents, no matter the age, right? So that relationship is a lifetime thing. So, it’s so useful to keep that as your guide.

LUCY: Yeah.

So, I am curious—what has surprised you most about your journey so far?

LUCY: Okay. The most surprising thing has probably been how unsurprising it has been, in the sense that it’s just been a life lived, I guess. And I think like maybe a few years ago when we were at the start of this unschooling journey, I think I imagined that with a six-year-old and four-year-old we would be rammed with projects and activities and it would be like a non-stop kind of educational life that we were all living together. And actually, I think that’s been the surprise, that it’s not. It’s just—we just wake up, and we do our thing.

And we have really fun days. We have those epic days of non-stop projects and making and learning, but we also have a huge number of just little bits and bobs in the day, da da da. And I think that’s the thing that is surprising for others when they sort of see our lives in action. (laughs)

We just have a really slow, really simple life that we’re just trying to live with as much time and space and patience and freedom every day. And I just think that the key to that is to not really be doing loads and loads and loads and loads of stuff. So that’s probably been the most surprising thing about it, is how unsurprising it’s been.

PAM: I love the way you describe that, because that was a huge revelation for me too. The concept of time. Time and space. When I write about unschooling, I use that phrase so bloody often. (laughs) Time and space. Because we are so used to go, go, go, go. I had no clue how much actual time and space we need; that we would take if given the opportunity.

LUCY: Yeah.

PAM: Right? To process, that down time, which we used to think of as “lazy,” or not doing anything productive, et cetera. How valuable and important that time is. I had no clue. (laughs)

LUCY: Yeah, and, you know, it might feel like it takes an hour for everybody to put their shoes on, so you can go out to the woods—I’m speaking from experience from this morning.

And that hour is really important because if you feel like you’ve got an hour for everybody to find their shoes and put them on, you’ve got space then for the trauma that happens when you can’t find socks with the right seams in the right place. You’ve got time to validate that person’s feelings and hug them until they’re ready to move on from that moment. You don’t have to snap at people to get them to hurry up, and you don’t have to forget things because you’ve all rushed out the door too quickly. You can definitely have all the snacks you need, you can definitely have the right socks with the right seams, and you can definitely all have the space you need to be patient with each other.

And increasingly I see—perhaps it’s in contrast because we’re here in England at the moment, and I’m quite busy with lots of different work things, and we’ve got hundreds of people it feels like to catch up with while we’re here, like friends and family. And so, at the moment, we are kind of a little bit like go, go, go, and it’s in such stark contrast to our life in the yurt, which is just basically no, no, no. (laughs)

Just like slow, slow, slow I should say, actually. It’s just really, really slow. And here I find myself having a quickening of the breath and a kind of, “(gasp) We don’t have time for me to validate all of these emotions!” And I realized how much of my parenting comes down to basically not really doing very much, but just being really present with your children and having the time to let them feel everything they need to feel, and connect with them in all those down times.

PAM: Yeah, that patience to be with them, right? Like you were saying, validate. Because that patience keeps your connection with them, and they see, through your patience, that you see them.

LUCY: Yeah.

PAM: Right? Because if we’re trying to rush them through things, they really don’t feel seen. Like I’m just putting myself in those spots. When I feel rushed through things, you have to kind of close off part of yourself, don’t you? Because you don’t have the time to feel whatever it is that’s coming up. Yeah, that’s brilliant.

You recently started a group and a website called Parent Allies, and I have joined. I am really looking forward to that. And I would love to know the inspiration behind it, and a bit about your plans for it?

LUCY: Cool. So yeah, ParentAllies.org is the website, but there’s also a Facebook page and a Facebook group. And the group is probably the bit that I’m most excited about, because there’s a real community rising up around this idea. And the idea is taken from social justice movements, where in every rights movement so far there’s been a group of people who are in the sort of dominant group but have chosen to stand next to the marginalized group and advocate for them and support them and be people who will just show solidarity and do whatever they can to allow this group to have their rights met.

You’ve seen it in the Civil Rights movement, and in all sorts of movements over history. I’ve come to believe that children are one of the last marginalized groups in society; groups where it’s really socially accepted to basically marginalize them. You have conversations on Facebook where people are just like, “Yeah I don’t like kids.” And they’re almost proud or cool to sort of say it. And I really believe that there’s quite a systemic marginalization of children too, just in things like not having steps in public toilets so they can reach the taps or reach the toilet without having to climb over this grim thing. So those are a couple of little examples.

And the idea is that parents are invited to be allies to their children, to advocate for their needs and to show solidarity with them, and see their role as one where they’re partnering with their child to make sure their rights are fully honored and upheld.

On the website we are putting out lots of resources for people who are in different situations to share how they are allies to their children. And this is where it’s really exciting for me, because it’s moving right out of the education sphere. And I guess the root of the concept of parent allies, for me, came because I’ve been writing about unschooling for five years or so, and every time I write about unschooling in terms of respecting children, I have a lot of teachers and mums and dads of children who are at school say, “Well, how can I do this at home?” or “I feel like I do this, but my children do go to school.”

And so, by talking about parents as allies, we’re moving out of learning. We’re moving into the whole of life, whether you’re at school or not at school. Whoever you are in the world, you can be an ally to your child. So, the website is meant to be a resource for people who are choosing to be that.

And the Facebook group is a really, really supportive group where people can come in and they can ask for advice. You have to ask for advice—we don’t just give it willy-nilly, because I guess I’ve identified that that is a bit of a problem in our world. We’re so quick to give advice, rather than simply hearing someone’s story, or hearing someone’s problem.

So, there’s a tag where you can just say #solidarityplease, and that’s where you can come and you can talk about something that’s been bothering you or something you’re finding really hard, without getting any advice. You just get people saying, “Love to you” or “You’re doing really well” or, just showing solidarity. And then you can also ask for advice. And you can also get a high-five. You can go into the group and you can be like, “High five! I did really well with my kid today because this has been a bit of a struggle and I realized that in my role as an ally I need to help her and get this need met.” And then, you know, they’ll give details, and then everybody will say, “High five! High five!” (laughs)

And it’s sort of like, I guess it meets needs. It meets those needs of the parents to be heard, and in a way that is also respectful to their children. And it is a way to receive advice if you’re struggling with how to be an ally.

I think so often we have—I don’t really know what it is—maybe it’s a thing to do with human nature, but so often parents will think that they’ve got a problem that can only be solved with a punitive or disrespectful measure. They think, “Oh my kid doesn’t like brushing their teeth,” for example, “So the only thing I can do is hold them down and clean their teeth.” They sort of put up their own barriers and they say, “There’s no other answer. I’m mostly a respectful parent but, in this situation, I have to coerce my child.”

And the idea of the group is that we kind of crowd-source solutions. So very often people go in there and they’re like, “My child doesn’t want to clean their teeth.” And then we can say, “Oh I’ve been there and this worked for me, and this worked for me.” Because something I’ve found with parenting and problems is that answers one, two, and three don’t work, but four and five and six and seven and eight and nine might work. And I really think that in our role as an ally to our child, we can find the patience to look for four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine. Because it’s so important to us to remain connected and remain in partnership, and to respect their rights, that we’re willing to dig deep for those creative solutions. (sigh) That’s a little bit.

PAM: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I love the idea of expanding it to all parents, and even the “come get a high-five” deal. Because it’s still an unconventional way to parent, right? If they tried to share that with like a more conventional friend or whatever, they would get the side-eye, like “What the heck did you—just tell them to brush their darn teeth!” (laughs)

LUCY: Yeah, “My child’s got a really creative urge to paint on the walls, so today I dedicated a whole part of the wall so my child could literally just paint the wall. Can I get a high-five?” You can imagine having that conversation with a conventional parent, and them just being like, “You let your child paint on the wall?!?” Whereas in the group, everybody is like, “Rock on! You’re amazing that you could come up with a solution for that urge!”

PAM: Yeah, that works for everyone. Because, as we were talking before, when we were talking about school, there are ways. If that’s a necessary part of your life, there are ways to still respect and nurture and care for your relationship with your child. Just because school is part of the picture doesn’t mean all your relationship has to be about control.

LUCY: Exactly. And I used to find myself writing to unschoolers, and unschoolers at heart, and what I mean by that is people who loved all of this rights, respecting, freedom-loving stuff, but did, for whatever reason, have to send their children to school. and I guess that is really why I tried really hard to come up with a term to describe all of the people that are wanting to live this way with their children, whether their kids are at school or not.

Because certainly we need parents and teachers within the education system—which I believe is incredibly coercive and oppressive—we need people in there standing up for children and saying, “You know what, it is a child’s right to go to the toilet when they need to go to the toilet.” You know, we need allies within the education system.

My kids are having fun, by the way. (laughs) I’m sure you can probably hear them, and it sounds horrible and terrifying, but they’re all gleeful sounds. (laughs)

PAM: (laughs) No, that’s lovely. Oh, and, I was going to mention, Emma and I, we do a book chat every couple of months, and we’re reading the Childism book.

LUCY: Oh, cool.

PAM: I forget her name—I’ll put it in the show notes [Elisabeth Young-Bruehl]. And I’ll have links to your Facebook group and your website, and all that stuff as well. I think that’s awesome. People are going to have a lot of fun checking that out.

LUCY: Oh, cool.

PAM: And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. It was a lot of fun to finally get to chat with you Lucy.

LUCY: Yeah, totally. I feel kind of like, you know, we’re basically friends now, rather than people who know a little bit about each other from the internet. (laughs)

PAM: Yeah, exactly! Yeah, I was very much looking forward to chatting with you.

LUCY: Yeah, it’s been really lovely to be on here. Thank you so much for having me.

PAM: Yay! And before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

LUCY: I would probably say YouTube. People find me really personable on YouTube for some reason. It’s kind of a new channel, and I’ve been writing for seven years but only doing YouTube for a couple of years. But I think people find videos really helpful in a way that perhaps writing isn’t so. So, I’m on YouTube with my channel Lulastic and the Hippyshake. And I update that really regularly, like every single week, whereas other parts of the internet I’m slightly more like I pop in and pop out.

PAM: Awesome. I will definitely have the link to your channel there as well.

LUCY: Cool.

PAM: Thank you very much and have a great day. Have fun with the kids!

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, There’s Plenty of Time. It’s amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. Taking a moment to consider whether […]