Is workplace stress just about long hours? Not quite. Brian and Marcus Lagré unpack the real equation behind stress—how pressure, complexity, and security interact—and why your team’s performance depends on getting the balance right.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Marcus Lagré, product organization coach and author of The Stress Equation, to break down the science of workplace stress.

They explore the differences between mental and emotional stress, how pressure and complexity impact teams, and why security in the workplace is a game-changer for performance. Marcus shares research-backed insights on interruptions, stress contagion, and how leaders can create an environment where teams thrive without burning out.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Marcus Lagré
The Stress Equation by Marcus Lagré
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Marcus Lagré is an author, speaker, and consultant with 20 years of experience in software development, from small-team Scrum to massive 50+ team LeSS transformations. Creator of The Stress Equation, he helps organizations tackle workplace stress systematically, ensuring teams thrive under pressure without burning out.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm here as I usually am, Brian Milner. And today we have with us a really special guest, Marcus LeGray is with us. Welcome in, Marcus.

Marcus Lagre (00:13)
Thanks, Brian, pleasure to be here.

Brian Milner (00:15)
We were saying before that I'm actually kind of butchering or Americanizing his last name.

Marcus Lagre (00:20)
Nah, Americanizing, yes, but butchering, no. I wouldn't say that.

Brian Milner (00:24)
So I'm gonna give you a chance to set the record straight. Why don't you tell us the actually the correct pronunciation? Because I probably can't do it.

Marcus Lagre (00:31)
Well, my... I would say La Gré, but that's with a Swedish southern accent and not even most Swedes do that, so...

Brian Milner (00:34)
Okay. OK. Do the Swedish people look on people in the South like we do here in America? Like they're kind of more laid back and slower and... That's funny. OK. Well, we have Marcus on because, first of all, Marcus is a product organization coach. He's an author. He's a speaker.

Marcus Lagre (00:48)
Yeah, yeah, I would I would say so I would I would say so yeah

Brian Milner (01:03)
And he has a really great book that we wanted to kind of dive into the topic of here. Because in this day and age, this is a really important topic, but his book is called The Stress Equation. So you can kind of see where we might be going there with that. Well, so let's dive in. Let's talk about that a little bit. And I think probably a good place to start would be, how would you define then stress, when you, if we're talking about stress and the stress equation, how do you define stress?

Marcus Lagre (01:30)
I usually use the definition of stress because I let's start like this. I think that most people have like a too narrow perspective of what stress is. Like most people probably see it as working long hours and you know, spending a lot of time at work, but it doesn't necessarily have to. And there's this definition of stress from the Oxford English Dictionary that I found really well that stress is the result of, of, of, emotional or mental strain due to adverse or demanding circumstances. So yeah, so there's differences there. And I think that most people, if you're not in a very toxic environment, you don't suffer from emotional stress a lot at work, but mental strain is probably what we're looking at most often.

Brian Milner (02:04)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I wouldn't discount that entirely. I think that there's probably a lot of people out there that have the emotional strain of a bad boss or manager or something like that, right? But yeah, hopefully, you know, hopefully you're right that the majority might not be, you know, dealing with that. It might be more of the mental side of this. So what is mental stress then? What is a mental strain?

Marcus Lagre (02:38)
Well, mental strain is usually diversified by saying like emotional strain is like the stress from being like in a toxic environment, for example, which is more common than it should be. But mental strain is more of the when you have too much of a mental load, like you're trying to solve a complex problem, like you have high cognitive load in order to solve it, or you need to

Brian Milner (02:48)
Hmm.

Marcus Lagre (03:03)
Well, it's also related to cognitive load that you have a lot of context switching. So you need to change information in your working memory quite often and a lot. And that can lead to mental strain. And the problem with mental strain, as I see it in white collar worker or knowledge workers, is that most of us are, we like mental challenges. We like puzzles, we like solving problems. So we're not great at identifying when a mental challenge becomes a mental strain for us. We're used to just pushing on. we try to just, you know, it's just something that I haven't figured out yet. If I push myself just a little harder, I'll crack it. Yeah.

Brian Milner (03:42)
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. We do like puzzles. We do like challenges. I I know one of the popular things here in the US is the escape room kind of thing. I don't know if you guys have that there as well, but we actually pay people in our free time to give us puzzles and challenges that for fun, we'll go and put ourselves under some mental duress and try to figure out. So I think you're right. there is part of us that really wants to do that. Well, if that's true, then the other side of that is, shouldn't we all be under some kind of mental stress then, since work is challenging and complex and hopefully.

Marcus Lagre (04:20)
Well, yeah, I mean, not all stress is bad. So I usually say that the stress that we feel at work usually comes from two different sources. So this is the equation. Like the mental strain comes from the complexity that we need to, now that we need to handle. Either the complexity of the problem that we need to solve, or if we're working in, the complexity could also be like the frustration of working in an inefficient organization. That could be part of the complexity.

Brian Milner (04:23)
Yeah.

Marcus Lagre (04:46)
So I usually say that pressure is our sense of urgency. The pressure comes from our sense of urgency in order to finish the work that we're, the task that we have at hand or whatever it is that we're trying to solve. And the complexity is whatever makes it harder for us to actually finish that work. So to relate back to what you were saying, shouldn't we be under some kind of stress? Yes, we should. If we don't have any sense of urgency, we're probably not delivering at all. And if there's zero complexity in what we're doing, That should probably be an automated task long ago. We will probably suffer from severe boredom if there's zero complexity in what we're doing.

Brian Milner (05:25)
Yeah, I always, you know, this comes up sometimes in classes where, I think, you know, I want to find those people who are under zero pressure at work, because I've never been in that situation. I've never had any kind of boss or organization that was like, just take as long as you need. It doesn't matter. There's always some pressure and some places it's more than others and some places it's extreme. But yeah, I think you're right. There's a right amount of pressure. that can be applied.

Marcus Lagre (05:48)
And there's also constructive stress. I usually diversify like constructive stress is when you try to achieve something because if you're under a lot of pressure solving something very complex, there's also pleasure in actually solving it. So there's some kind of release in the end. But if you're constantly under a lot of pressure or...

Brian Milner (05:51)
Hmm.

Marcus Lagre (06:09)
I usually say that the pressure usually comes from things like how we set deadlines, how we handle our backlog. So if you have two short deadlines, then you're under negative stress or unconstructive stress, or we have an ever-expanding backlog. We can never finish everything in this backlog. have no way of saying no to things. They just keep piling on. That's unconstructive stress, but...

Brian Milner (06:30)
Yeah.

Marcus Lagre (06:34)
A sense of urgency to reach like a goal? That's more of positive kind of stress.

Brian Milner (06:39)
Yeah. Yeah. I I've heard, my boss, Mike Cohn talk about before how scrum has just the right amount of pressure that it's, it's not, you know, it's, it's not the kind of, when we think about commitment and stuff inside of a sprint, it's not the kind of thing of, you're going to lose your job if you don't make this sprint commitment. But it is kind of, you know, my, my word is on the line. My name is on the line. And if I don't deliver. I'm letting down my team, I'm letting down those around me. So that's way he describes it. It's kind of just the right amount of pressure that's kind of baked into the way Scrum works. I've always liked that. I've always thought that's kind of a good take on that. So we're kind of in these pressure cookers a little bit, right? We've got pressure and sometimes more than others and we do need some kind of pressure. So we have some sense of urgency in what we're doing. How does this align with our Agile Manifesto kind of ideal of working at a sustainable pace? Is the pressure going to crack us under trying to keep a sustainable pace? And what if we don't have any say over the amount of pressure we have?

Marcus Lagre (07:46)
Well, if you don't have any say, then I usually say that the pressure isn't a force of nature, that it usually stems from someone's decisions. And if we don't have a say in it, then we can't influence that pressure really as a team maybe. But from a leadership perspective, if you put unlimited pressure on the team, you're gonna see decreasing results anyway. It's not... constructive, you're going to burn your people, you're going to lose, worst case, lose them from the company, either because they change jobs or because they burn out and they have to go on sick leave. So and that's going to cost you in the end. But also that you're going to see either a lot more well, as I said, either a lot of people leaving or people doing quite quitting. That's that's what's going to be because once caring about your own performance becomes dangerous, people are gonna put in the bare minimum. That's the people you're gonna keep.

Brian Milner (08:41)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there's lots of research baked into this and you've probably crossed a lot of different studies and things that have kind of jumped out at you. And to me, that's always one of the things that's the most interesting when I dive into a topic like this and go really, you know, kind of knee deep into it. what, was there any kind of research that you stumbled upon as you were preparing for this or, you know, creating this book? that really kind of surprised you or that you found extremely interesting? Any studies out there around the effects of stress that kind of shocked you even maybe?

Marcus Lagre (09:18)
I wouldn't say shocked, but one thing that surprised me was that there was this study that showed, because I talk in the book about complexity, and I mentioned earlier that if you need to change the information in your working memory a lot, that leads to mental strain. But there were actually studies that showed that interruptions in work does not lower the quality of the work. It does, however, increase the sense of stress. But it doesn't necessarily lower the quality of work, which was something that I was absolutely convinced it would. However, there was a correlation between how far if you got interrupted, if it was on topic, so to speak, so that you didn't have to throw everything out of your working memory, then the quality level was still on par with what you would have seen if you weren't interrupted. However,

Brian Milner (09:48)
Yeah.

Marcus Lagre (10:06)
if it was something that was diametrically different to what you were actually doing, then yes, the quality would also drop. But I actually thought there would be like a clear correlation between interruptions and lower quality of work. And it wasn't.

Brian Milner (10:20)
Yeah. So it's not, I mean, what I'm hearing is it's not necessarily the interruption itself. It's the content of the interruption. And if the interruption is, you know, taking you wildly off track from your thought process, that's higher stress kind of a reaction to it. And that leads to more problems. But if it's, if it's an interruption that's near in the same area of what it is you're working on and thinking about, then it's not as hard to get back to it. Less stress, less, let's kind of end result effect, right?

Marcus Lagre (10:52)
Yeah, there's less mental strain in that scenario. However, you do often feel like you're less efficient, that you get less joy out of what you're doing if you get constantly interrupted, and that the workload is heavier than it actually is. So there's negative sides to getting interrupted a lot, but as long as it's sort of on topic, as you say, it's not really that harmful.

Brian Milner (10:54)
Okay. Yeah. Well, I know you do a lot of work with organizations and with leaders and organizations. And I know one of the difficult things, difficult kind of parts of having these conversations with leadership is trying to help them to understand the importance and kind of the impact and why this is important in a business sense to them. Not just that, you know, the way I phrase it in classes, it's not just that it makes you a better person, right? which there's value in that. not negating that being a good person is bad. I'm just saying from a business sense, oftentimes leaders want more than just saying, yeah, I'm a better human by doing that, but is it better for the business? So how do you have that conversation with leaders, with organizations to say, this is actually an important thing to focus on. This makes an impact on your business.

Marcus Lagre (12:07)
usually the challenge is to get leaders to understand that they are also affected by this. Because a lot of the challenges I see in organizations is that I come in and I usually do like an analysis of the organizations, ask around, do interviews and analyze everything. And what I come up with is rarely news to the leadership. They have seen the same thing. The problem is that they never had the time to just sit down and figure things out because they're constantly rushing between meetings. They're constantly rushing to do various budgets, updates, stuff like this, just keeping the mill going. So I usually say that they're too operationally occupied to take a look at the strategic goals and the strategic direction that they need to be going in for the business to run smoothly over a period of time. And so I usually tell them that the most important thing that you can get yourself is like an hour, at least every week that you just sit on your rear end and just contemplate things. I usually use a different word than rear end when I tell them this, just to drive the point home. But yeah, they need to find time. where they can just like no phone, no computer, just sit down for an hour and let whatever enters your head, enter your head because otherwise you will never figure this out. And you don't have to pay people like me premium to come in and tell you things that you are actually clever enough to figure out yourself.

Brian Milner (13:41)
Right, right. Yeah, so that's so interesting. So it's hard to convince them that stress plays a big impact on their work. I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective, but that's a great point to make. If you can help them understand the impact it has on their work, maybe it's an easier conversation than to say the impact it has on your teams or on your employees' work. Yeah.

Marcus Lagre (14:06)
I have never, mean, stress is contagious and it ripples down. If you have a really stressed out management, you're gonna have stress in the rest of the organization as well, like on the floor and in your teams. That's just a given, I would say.

Brian Milner (14:11)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, so I'm following along. I think this is good. So we're talking about how you kind of explain this a little bit more to leaders and help them understand the impact. What about when you get one of those leaders who's just, and I know I've had these before where they're kind of more old school and they look at things and think, you know, you... Well, on your graph of pressure, right? They're much more leaning towards the higher pressure side to place on employees because they take that attitude of, you know, the old phrase that we all hate, work expands to fill the time allowed or whatever that thing is, right? How do you convince that person that, you know, there's an okay amount, but you're kind of really skewing it to the high end and this is now going to have an adverse effect?

Marcus Lagre (15:00)
yeah, yeah,

Brian Milner (15:12)
on what you're ultimately trying to do.

Marcus Lagre (15:14)
My usual angle of attack is to address the complexity of the part of the equation. I probably can't get them to understand or accept that they're applying too much pressure, but what they're actually trying to achieve is to get more output. I mean, that's the goal of their actions. And so I try to get them to understand the complexity that their teams are working under and try to get them to understand that you need to reduce this in order to free up more time and mental bandwidth for output. And that's usually a better way forward than trying to get them to accept that you only get so far with a whip. Once you've whipped one time too many, people are going to just stop caring.

Brian Milner (16:02)
Yeah. Yeah, you can't come back and use that tool over and over again. It's going to have kind of the opposite effect that you're hoping it will have eventually, right?

Marcus Lagre (16:14)
People are going to start telling you about problems, for example, because these people are usually the same people who don't want to hear about problems. Don't tell me about problems, tell me your solutions kind of attitude. And I usually get them to understand that you have absolutely no idea what the problems of this organization is, because people are afraid to tell you.

Brian Milner (16:22)
Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's such a huge point, I think, for leaders to kind of soak in and understand. If you have that culture, if you are generating that culture of fear in the organization of, don't come to me with problems, only come to me with solutions, then you're right. You're absolutely right. You're closing yourself off. And you're kind of establishing the norm that if there is an issue, The last thing to do is to raise it, to let people know about it, live with it, right? Just kind of exist with a status quo. If there's a problem, then you just have to learn to live with the problem.

Marcus Lagre (17:09)
Live with the problem or game the system so the problem isn't apparent.

Brian Milner (17:13)
Right, right. So back to the equation then. So your equation here, pressure times complexity over security. I don't know what we've talked much about security so far. So how does that come into play when you calculate this kind of pressure equation, stress equation?

Marcus Lagre (17:25)
Bye! Yeah, well, we kind of touched on it now, like with leaders who act in a way that lowers the security or the sense of security. So I define security as the freedom from fear at work. And psychological safety is one part of that. But it's also that you feel that you have... I'm sort of reluctant to use the words servant leadership anymore because there's sort of... sort of become a tainted word in some ways. People see it as a passive leadership style, which is not really, I don't quite agree with that, but security is in essence that you are able to take high pressure and high complexity if you feel that you have the management in your back, that you're taking it on as a team, that you're not alone with all of that pressure and all of that complexity, but you have people around you who you can rely on and ask for help. If you have that, then your security is higher and then you can take more pressure, you can take more complexity without burning out.

Brian Milner (18:32)
Yeah, yeah, that makes complete sense because if I have the kind of that sense of security that I'm not at risk, I don't feel like I'm being put in a position to fail so that I'm now in danger, but I've been given difficult problems because I have been trusted to conquer them. I've been trusted and empowered to kind of overcome them. That's such a different approach and mindset from an employee standpoint than, my gosh, I got to do this or I'm going to get fired.

Marcus Lagre (19:05)
Exactly, there's probably, management has probably let me know that we understand, we're handing you like a really tough thing to solve. if you need anything, if you need any resources, if you need any extra help, just ask us for it and we'll solve it. And in that situation, you're a lot more likely to... be able to get into that without burning out simply because you know that I have the management backing me up.

Brian Milner (19:37)
if I'm one of those employees who's under a high pressure environment, and I don't really feel like I have the power or authority to make that change, what can I do about it?

Marcus Lagre (19:50)
I mean, the thing that you can do is to change what I usually, one of the reasons why I wrote this book is that stress is one of the leading causes of mental illness and sick leave in our line of work, which is software. So if something is the leading cause of a problem, it's probably systemic, it's not individual. So one of the most important thing, that you can do is to identify what in the system is causing the stress in me, because ultimately stress is a subjective feeling. it manifests itself in people, but you can get the tools to identify what in the system is causing the stress in me. that can be quite a relief to not put that... I mean, put additional pressure on yourself by thinking that you're the one who's bad at your job or you're the one who don't have the correct coping mechanisms for the situation. The situation might actually be insane.

Brian Milner (20:51)
Yeah. Yeah, it's that subjective nature, I think, that is kind of a variable that I would throw into this equation. It's sort of like, I know one of the things I found really fascinating in kind of the earlier history of Agile and the idea of a sustainable pace was originally there was kind of talk about saying, using words like, no one should work more than 40 hours a week. But then that got changed to sustainable pace because of the realization that for some people 40 hours was too much and for other people 40 hours was not enough. And so that idea of sustainable pace was, it's individual, it's different to different people and that's part of what we got to do is know ourselves enough to know, hey, I'm kind of slipping beyond that point where I can sustain this indefinitely.

Marcus Lagre (21:37)
Yeah, and I think that's one of the myths that I want to bust a little bit is that, you know, it's not about 40 hours. It's not about the hours. I mean, there are some people who can work 60, 80 hours without burning out. So it's not the hours. It's something else. You know, so it's the end of the... Maybe it's the pressure that we have too much pressure. Maybe it's that we have too high complexity in combination with pressure. Maybe it's that we are in a toxic environment. So it's like how much mental energy do I need to handle the context that I'm in? That's.

Brian Milner (22:13)
It's almost like there needs to be kind of this balance between those three things that you've got to, one thing might go a little higher, but the others then have to drop a little bit so that it kind of equals out, right?

Marcus Lagre (22:22)
Yeah. That's what I, like, I always say that if you want to put high pressure on your teams, on your organization, you have to reduce the complexity because you can't do both at the same time. Those are the two variables that increases the stress. But then as we mentioned, like feeling of security is the lowering factor. So you always do well working with

Brian Milner (22:38)
Yeah.

Marcus Lagre (22:46)
the sense of security within your teams and working with your culture and making sure that toxic behavior is simply not acceptable in this organization, for example. And so that's always, you always get a reduced level of stress from that kind of work. But as I said, if you have high complexity and you put too high pressure on something, it's gonna break sooner or later. You're either gonna break your people or you're gonna break your product. because you're going to reduce the quality of the work because you have to stress through everything. And quite frankly, I don't care about your product. You're free to break it if you want to, but breaking people, that's just not okay.

Brian Milner (23:18)
Ha ha. Yeah, now we're back to being a good human, right? mean, these are humans. They're not AI programs, at least not yet. And they have lives. the more that you, like you're talking about, the more that you increase that pressure on them or decrease their sense of security, the less complexity they can handle. And you know, You have diminishing returns on your employees, on their productivity.

Marcus Lagre (23:48)
It is unsound business.

Brian Milner (23:50)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, this is fascinating. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Again, for anyone listening, if this topic is interesting to you, highly recommend you check out the book, The Stress Equation by Marcus Le Gray, even though that's not actually the way to say the name. it's L-A-G-R-E, just so everyone knows. I don't want you to struggle searching for it if you're looking for it. We will put the links to it in the show notes for this episode so that you don't miss out if you're trying to contact Marcus or you want to know more about the book. We'll make sure you find a way to do it. So Marcus, I really appreciate you coming on. This has been a fascinating topic and I appreciate you sharing your wisdom, your research and your knowledge on this with us.

Marcus Lagre (24:31)
The pleasure was all mine, Brian.

The Agile Alliance partners with PMI—what does it mean for Agile’s future? Plus, how AI is reshaping Scrum Master roles and why honesty (even when it stings) is the key to career growth. Brian Milner and Cort Sharp tackle these hot topics in a no-holds-barred discussion.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Cort Sharp dive into the recent Agile Alliance-PMI partnership and its potential impact on the Agile community.

They also explore AI’s growing influence on Scrum Master roles—will it replace them or elevate their value? Finally, they tackle a tricky but crucial topic: when to speak up in the workplace, balancing honesty with career preservation.

If you want to stay ahead in Agile’s evolving landscape, this is a must-listen!

References and resources mentioned in the show:

#32: Scrum in High School Sports with Cort Sharp
#82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton
#129: 2025: The Year Agile Meets AI and Hyper-Personalization with Lance Dacy
#132: Can Nice Guys Finish First? with Scott Dunn
Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in. Welcome back, everybody. This is the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today, we're going to do something a little different. We're in this mode right now. We've kind of been open to some suggestions recently about maybe we should try some experiments and try some different things. And so today's going to be one of those little experiments. We have someone that's going to be with us, Mr. Cort Sharp. So welcome in, Cort.

Cort (00:23)
Hey Brian, thanks for having me on.

Brian Milner (00:26)
Absolutely. Cort is our community manager for the Agile Mentors community. And Cort and I do classes together a lot. He is often the producer in the classes. So we see each other a lot. We talk a lot. Cort's also a certified Scrum professional. So he's been doing this and has encountered Scrum in some kind of unusual circumstances as well. He's a high school swim coach. There's an episode that we talked about that. way back so that anyone wants to dig that out, they can go back and find that and learn a little bit more about it. But we just thought it would be good to have maybe periodically a little check in about maybe some stories that have come up in the news about Agile or things that have been flashing through social media feeds or anything like that. know, Cort and I are a little bit different age groups, a little bit, more than a little bit. And I'm sure the of things that cross court's radar may be a little bit different than the things that cross mine. And we just thought maybe it would be an interesting kind of thing to have a little discussion, the two of us, about some of these major burning issues and things that people are talking about on LinkedIn and Twitter and, I'm sorry, X, anywhere else. I'm going to kind of... Give the reins over to court here a little bit, because I know he's pulled some things that he wants to talk about, and we'll just kind of see where we go.

Cort (01:40)
Awesome, yeah, thanks Brian. Not just X and LinkedIn, we're also looking through Instagram, YouTube Shorts, where the cool kids hang out, I guess is. That's at least what my swimmers tell me.

Brian Milner (01:50)
Okay, okay I Got it I got a yeah, I you know, I had to learn a lot about an Instagram with my daughters and I still don't get it. just I mean I have fun flipping through stuff but I don't I could never like get a following there because I just don't understand how to Do all the but that's old guy talking. So

Cort (02:11)
It's a weird place, Brian. I don't blame you. It's totally good. But I've seen a few things come across my feed, and we've kind of had lighter versions of this conversation, whether it's in classes or just kind of on the side or something like that. So we just kind of thought, hey, let's sit down and actually go into depth about this, because I'm curious what your thoughts are on some of these things. And I don't know.

Brian Milner (02:14)
Yeah

Cort (02:35)
Hopefully I'm able to add into the conversation a little bit more than just here's a young guy yelling at a cloud instead of an old guy yelling at a cloud, right? No, I hope not. But let's come out and I'm gonna come out swinging at you. So the biggest news bite that I have found over the last couple of months or the last month-ish is that the Agile Alliance and PMI

Brian Milner (02:37)
Ha ha. young guy and old guy yelling at each other. That's not what anyone wants to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

Cort (03:02)
have entered, have announced that they're entering a partnership. We don't really know a ton about what that partnership looks like, but it is presumed that the Agile Alliance will be hosting some kind of content through PMI or PMI will be hosting some kind of content that the Agile Alliance has created. So I'm just curious, like, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's a good move, bad move, any kind of potential impacts that you see? It's a big one.

Brian Milner (03:30)
Yeah, way to start with a softball that we just, yeah, mean, it's obviously a hot button topic right now. I've heard lots, I've read lots of opinions of people on different kind of forums and discussion boards and things where people are talking about kind of, what does this mean? That kind of thing. And so here's kind of,

Cort (03:34)
Hahaha

Brian Milner (03:57)
Here's kind of what I've heard from both sides, right? The people who are kind of anti feel like this is maybe a little bit of a betrayal. And I think that the reasoning behind that kind of feels like maybe historically or somewhere maybe further into the past, the PMI may have been a little bit of an antagonist towards the Agile movement, or some people feel that way. I'm not saying this is my opinion, but this is what I've heard. Some people might feel that way. And so they feel like, would you attach your name to something like that? But I've also heard from people who are pro and have said, look, the basics of the deal are that it's not going to change anything for the Agile Alliance other than the name. It's officially the PMI Agile Alliance. But other than that, what I've heard from people who are board members that have posted

Cort (04:43)
Sure, yeah.

Brian Milner (04:50)
from the Agile Alliance have said, it's just nothing more than our name is now different. We're autonomous. We can still do the things we've always done. And we feel like the connection to this larger organization will enable us and help us. And I know the Agile Alliance has gone through some tough times, as a lot of us in the industry have, with the conferences. At least I know the conferences last year was kind of not what people have hoped, and not just the Agile Alliance conference, but other conferences have had down attendance and other things. Maybe just a sign of the times, I don't know. But personally, I kind of look at it and I got to preface this. got to, before we talk about anything else, right? Because now we're going to get into opinion. But I would just say, let me preface by saying the opinions you are about to hear. are not the official opinions of Mountain Goat Software. They are just the opinions of the individuals that you will be listening to. So this is just one guy's opinion, right? I think I would just say I get it from both sides. I understand. I see kind of the concern. From the people who are pro and they say, look, it's just the name, I don't know why anyone would freak out about that. It's just a, we're just putting letters PMI in front of our name. hear that, but I've also heard other people counter that to be like, yeah, but it would be like Greenpeace saying, you know, we're now Exxon Greenpeace, you know? And I don't think, I think that's quite, you know, a huge overstatement. I don't think that's the same thing at all. And I, you know, I recognize that the PMI has, you know, they've adapted. anyone who thinks that they're the same way that they've always been, I think is wrong. I think that they have incorporated over time more and more agile ideas into their certifications and other things. they certainly, I feel like they've recognized the agile sort of the future and they've tried to invest more heavily. I think this is a sign of that as well. They're trying to invest a little bit more into agile because they see it as, you this is the future of project management. You know. But they also see it as one of the paths. It's one way of doing project work. And it's not the only way. There are other ways that are good as well. I don't know that I disagree with that. Depends on the project. It depends on what it is you're trying to do. But we talk about this in class. If I know what it is that we're going to make, I know exactly how to make it, the customer knows what they want, and we're not changing anything along the way, then

Cort (07:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Milner (07:16)
Agile may not be the right way. But if any of those things are not true, then I think Agile is the right way. end of the world, no. I don't see it as the end of the world. I don't see it as the sky's falling. I think it is a sign of the times. I think it is sort of a benchmark kind of thing to say, wow, things have reached this point where they've joined forces. I think that's not an indication of either side bending a huge amount, but that both sides have bent and met in the middle. And that's kind of my opinion on it. The sky's not falling, but I don't really know how it will change things moving forward. They tell us it's not going to really. We'll see.

Cort (07:58)
I think I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And that's what I've seen as well amongst the social media spheres. Kind of a lot of discourse of, this is really bad, or, this is not as bad as you think it's going to be, or, this is actually really good. Because I think one point that I agree with a little bit more so is, in principle, at face value, This might not be what the Agile Alliance was founded on or anything that goes, or I wouldn't say anything, but it doesn't align with the foundational values of the Agile Alliance. But in the long run, I think this might be pretty beneficial for Agile as a whole, because PMI is massive. They have a huge reach, very big name recognition, and for them to acknowledge, not only acknowledge, but acknowledge in this way and bring in Agile into this space within their reach, I don't see a ton of harm that could really be brought to it purely on the basis of our reach, PMI's reach is significantly larger than the Agile alliances. So it just helps Agile grow a little bit more so and get a little further reach. Do you agree with that? you disagree? Thoughts on that?

Brian Milner (09:14)
Yeah, I mean, I've heard Mike say this before, where he says, you we talk about partnerships, you know, who's bringing more to the table? Is the Agile Alliance funneling more attention, eyeballs to the PMI by this Alliance, or is the Agile Alliance getting more eyeballs and more attention because of the audience of the PMI? I would think it's the Agile Alliance is getting more. Like you said, I think the PMI is a huge behemoth, pretty highly recognizable. their certifications have been out. They're kind of one of the first of those kinds of certifications that existed out there. And I just think that they're probably bringing more to the table to the Agile Alliance than the Agile Alliance is bringing to them.

Cort (09:56)
Yeah, yeah, the Agile Alliance is kind of getting the better end of the deal, so to speak, as far as exposure goes.

Brian Milner (10:00)
Yeah, but I think time will tell. I think that's really what I would say to anyone is just don't freak out too much yet. You need to just wait and see what will happen. When the moves happen, if something happens, it's like all of a sudden now the Agile Alliance can't in any way talk about how traditional waterfall is not a great way of doing things. Well, now I would raise the alarm and say, OK, well, now you see the compromise. But if that doesn't happen, if it truly is, as I've been hearing, it's just a naming, we're autonomous, I don't see the grave harm.

Cort (10:33)
Right, right. Right. I think one thing that's kind of overlooked or maybe just a little glazed over that people didn't pay too much attention to is they didn't announce this as a merger. They announced this as a partnership. So to me, when I hear partnership, hear two entities working independently with a common goal of whatever it may be.

Brian Milner (10:54)
Yep. Yep. Yeah, a little insider baseball on that because I have heard some discussions around that as well. And just what I've heard is, there is a trickiness there because the agile Alliance is a nonprofit organization. And so from a for-profit organization, you cannot acquire a nonprofit organization unless that nonprofit organization changes and becomes a for-profit entity.

Cort (11:28)
in for profit. Yeah.

Brian Milner (11:31)
I'm not a lawyer. I don't know any of that kind of insider, the legalese that's around that. But I've heard a little bit of conversation around the fact that it might have been an acquisition had they been a for-profit company. But since they were a nonprofit, it's a partnership. So that may be the case or not. I don't know.

Cort (11:50)
So that brings up just a question to me then. A lot of times when companies merge, they tend to merge as either an industry or a sector is kind of starting to go down, trickle down a little bit. And they merge as a method of of like bulking up, strengthening where they can, trying to... that they acquire, they merge in order to withstand the rough times. Do you think that that might be what's at play here? Where just from a business perspective, this is kind of the business smart move for both entities, both organizations, so that they can withstand, I think I saw somewhere like a 35 % reduction in middle management positions, postings or something like that, right?

Brian Milner (12:31)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think, the, the past few years have been kind of difficult economically. please don't think I'm being political and saying that at all. I'm just, yeah, I can only state what I've, I've seen and heard from other people in the industry. And I've, you know, I've heard about people talking about less job postings, those going down. I've heard about, know, trainers and coaches and other things. you know, losing percentages of their students or their coaching engagements or other things. So I've just heard that it's been, and we've kind of experienced some of that as well, decline a little bit. I don't think it's that one of those two entities had a decline. I think they both are kind of recognizing this is a tough economic climate and strength in numbers. You know, if we can support each other and maybe that's the path forward is that we kind of combine forces and combine and conquer a little bit. So I think you're right. I think that may have forced it and it's just the opportunity presented itself.

Cort (13:37)
Just kind of a contextual thing where the context of kind of where we're at right now. That's really what drove it. Yeah, I can see that. could totally see that. Awesome. Well, let's jump over to our next kind of topic right now. Everyone's favorite topic right now, AI, right? We've talked about it substantially. But kind of with that whole idea of

Brian Milner (13:52)
Sure. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Cort (14:03)
or that little note that we had there of these mid-level management positions, we're not seeing them rise in open positions. We're kind of seeing them get squeezed down a little bit. We're seeing them reduced. And a lot of that is attributed to AI, where a lot of these mid-level management positions are tasks that can be done by AI, because a lot of it is kind of this data analysis stuff and what do we move forward with? Relating it to Scrum specifically with AI being on the rise and Scrum Master roles appearing to be bringing less value as a result, because I think you've seen it, I've seen it a lot. A lot of my friends are talking about it. I've seen it a lot on social media. Actually one Instagram reel that sticks out to me right now is someone was like, hey, do you want to get into tech without having to learn how to code, be a scrum master. It's super easy. You just take a two day course and you're going to make $110,000 a year or whatever. And it's like, you know, little tongue in cheek, but at the same time, I think there's some truth to what that real was saying. Um, however, with that, I think a lot of scrum masters are being shoehorned into roles or have been shoehorned into roles of. Logging meetings. creating meetings, facilitating those meetings and then entering in the next one and saying, Hey, everyone has to show up here and, you need a story point this. I need point values for this bug before we start working on anything. and a lot of that seems to be replaced with AI or at least is able to be replaced with AI. So Scrum Masters now are in a position where they have to drive more value. where, where do you think Scrum Masters? in their role can bring more value? And do you know of any resources that are either widely available, freely available, available at a lower cost to help Scrum Masters learn how to actually bring more value to their role?

Brian Milner (16:04)
Yeah. Well, the first thing I'll start off in saying is, you know, one of the great things about living in today's world is there is so there's such a wealth of information that's free. You know, I can learn how to do, I can learn how to cook anything in the world by just finding the video on social media and not all of a sudden, you know, I've got everything I need to make a great dish. I may not taste the same as the person who did it, but you know, I can learn how to do pretty much anything. I can Google, you know, how to You know change out my doorbell, which is one thing I did over the holidays You know like that's the kind of thing that there's a full video showing exactly it step-by-step Here's how to do everything and and I think that you know for Us a scrum masters. There's there are some skills. I think that are gonna be More and more relevant more and more needed and I think you just have to put yourself in the frame of reference of what would AI do a good job of? this is such a answer because if my job as a scrum master is to just schedule meetings, well, then yeah, I'm in trouble because an AI can do that really easily. And you don't even need AI for that. All you just need is to have people enter when they're available. There's dozens of websites where you can do that. do that. My D &D group does that to try to find the nights we can play. It's easy to do that, and you don't need any AI for it. So if you reduce what a scrum master is down to something as simplistic as let's schedule meetings, well, then yeah, you're in danger. I think what's going to happen is that more and more, it's going to be the soft skill kind of things that are going to differentiate the Scrum Master profession. I think that AI is going to have a hard time with managing interpersonal relationships. It's going to have a hard time helping the team navigate through conflict. It's going to have a hard time picking up on details, how safe does the team feel, how well are they working together. AI can do certain things really well, but there's a reasoning that's not there now. I don't know if that's coming. I don't know if that's tomorrow, if that's 10 years from now, or a year from now, or six months. But I know that now, even though they say thinking or other things like that, it's not really thinking. It's just digging up more data. And it can process a large amount of data and give you some insights from it. That is something that it does well. but it can't intuit, you know? It doesn't have emotional intelligence. And yeah.

Cort (18:47)
Yeah. Yeah, think one spot or one really good definition of where AI is fantastic that I read recently is AI is absolutely incredible when there is a set of very clear specific rules. So the book that was reading that said that they use chess, example, right? Where chess has a very, as a set of very specific rules. and AI can beat any grandmaster easy. Really just like chess.com can beat any grandmaster at this point, right? Because it's able to analyze potential outcomes based on a set of rules and a scenario that it's given in. Whereas a lot of humans, we think, or a lot of human chess grandmasters, they think in a way of like, here's one specific strategy that has worked in this scenario. I'm going to go that down that route. So AI can inference, so to speak, they're going to go down this route because that's what has happened in the past. And based on that set of rules that has happened in the past, here we go. So I think you're entirely right with those softer skills where you're interacting in a space that has some guidelines, but not necessarily a set of clearly defined rules is where AI is going to struggle right now. Absolutely. Yeah, totally.

Brian Milner (20:07)
Yeah, I'll tell you, Cort, too, one of the things that I'm really interested in, and I've talked to you about this and some other people, I'm really interested to see how AI, especially for coding, because more and more coders are taking advantage of coding assistants. And there are some stories out there and some companies that are more and more reducing the reliance on a person to code and using more AI to do coding. Some claim that they can do it all with AI. I would be really suspicious if there's no human involved at all. But what I'm really curious about is how does it change the process? If you are using an AI coding assistant, Does that change any other part of your process? How do you verify that the code that the AI has produced is correct? Is there a pairing? Is there a peer review of that that the team does? I suspect that there's practices and things like that that are popping up all over the place that just haven't been codified yet. There hasn't been a white paper that says, here's what you do. to try to ensure that it matches well with the rest of the code or here's how you know that it matches your standards or other things. I suspect that there's plenty of those kind of things out there and I'm just kind of waiting to hear those reports.

Cort (21:25)
Right? Yeah. Yeah, think, gosh, was, was Mark Zuckerberg was on the Joe Rogan podcast not too long ago. and he was saying like, yeah, by the end of 2025, Facebook is already doing it or Metta is already doing this. Sorry. Metta is already doing this where they're starting to replace their mid-level programmers, their mid-level developers with AI. And Zuckerberg was saying like, it's expensive right out of the gate.

Brian Milner (21:54)
Yeah.

Cort (21:59)
Right. It's going to be a lot of time, but we see the value in this long-term. so I wonder if, if that white paper is going to come from either meta or alphabet or one of those ones, right.

Brian Milner (22:09)
Yeah. Well, the domino effect of this is also going to be fascinating to watch because you said that they're talking about mid-level. I've heard a lot more about junior level being replaced, Like the entry level kind of stuff. And so, okay, let's say you do that, right? And you're hanging on to your senior people who have the experience. What happens when they move on? Right? When those senior people are gone, you haven't had anyone coming up the pipeline because you replaced it with AI for the junior stuff. And you're depending on more senior, more skilled advanced people to verify, to go through and fix the issues that AI is producing. They're going to be gone. They're going to retire. You know? So I don't know how that, that will be my first question to someone like Zuckerberg about that.

Cort (22:54)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Milner (23:02)
when they said something like that is, what's your continuity plan for moving up programmers into more senior skill level? How are you going to build that into your long-term process if you're going to replace junior and mid-level people with AI? That's going to be a train wreck that's going to happen at some point.

Cort (23:27)
I, cause a lot of times we talk about in courses or I've heard it a few times and I totally agree with this and subscribe to this idea that the goal of a scrub master is to work themselves out of a job. So I wonder if it's that kind of same kind of mentality that these bigger tech companies have with AI of, know, AI is going to work a developer out of a job or a developer is going to work themselves out of a job through AI being able to. code better than them, faster than them, be more precise, stuff like that. However, caveat to that, Mike was the one that said the goal of a scrum master or a good scrum master should be to work themselves out of a job, comma, I've never seen that happen. So Mike has never seen that happen, right? I don't think you've ever seen that happen. I've never seen that happen. I don't think anyone's really ever seen that happen. I don't think any scrum master has successfully done that.

Brian Milner (24:10)
Right.

Cort (24:20)
so I wonder if it's going to get to that, that kind of same point where it's like a developer will never work them themselves out of a job. It's just the cost of entry to a good developer job or to a developer job as a human. Just got up a little bit more, right? Where, where those senior positions are the only ones open. So you gotta create whatever experiences you can. Right.

Brian Milner (24:42)
mean, should, in reality, it should be like any other tool that people use to do a job. And it should be the kind of thing where, hey, now we have calculators, and I don't have to manually do the computations on my own. Does that mean that I don't need the reasoning and logic of knowing which computations to make? No. Someone still needs to know how to do that kind of thing. And I think that's how it shifts a little bit is. I don't know that it ever, I shouldn't say that ever. think it's, my, I'm not an AI expert, but my experience dabbling with this kind of stuff and reading articles and talking to people in the industry is that it's not there yet. It's, it's, it's good. It does a good job at, you know, being an assistant level, co-pilot level, that kind of thing, but it's not.

Cort (25:29)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Milner (25:32)
hey, let's fire our 10 developers because now we've got an AI that will do exactly what they did. It still takes reasoning and logic to know which path to go down, to ask it what to do. And I think that's just how it shifts a little bit is now there's a tool that does the more mundane part of that, but we still need the information, the logic, the reasoning to design it.

Cort (25:44)
Right. Right. Right. Yeah, totally. This this reminds me a lot of your conversation that you had with Lance. It's the first episode of twenty twenty five. You and Lance sat down and talked about AI and hyper hyper personalization. AI being used as a tool, which you and Lance discussed fairly thoroughly. You guys went into a little bit of depth about that. It's a tool that delivers value, but where do you think it's delivering value to, or who do you think it's delivering value to? Is it developers, the company as a whole, customers? Where do you see that value stream starting? And do you think it could eventually get to somewhere else, deliver value elsewhere?

Brian Milner (26:17)
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like to me asking like, how do you, where do you see streets and roads and highways deliver value? know, like it's, there's a million places they deliver value. There's a million industries. There's a million different things that they do. And I kind of see AI, you know, as a much, much, much more advanced version of that. But just to say, they're, Does it deliver value to customers? Yes, it delivers value to customers. It might make their lives easier or make it more simple to get to what they need. Does it deliver value to the organization? Sure, it delivers to the companies because it's going to help reduce time to market and speed and maybe cost as well. Although cost, we'll see. That's kind of an interesting thing because, you know,

Cort (27:26)
huh.

Brian Milner (27:33)
You read lot of articles about how OpenAI is not profitable yet. And it's taking a huge amount of data, a huge amount of data centers, a huge amount of energy. So that runway runs out at some point. And even charging $200 a pop for their pro model a month, it's not profitable. I mean, they say that membership level is not profitable right now.

Cort (27:46)
Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Right.

Brian Milner (27:59)
So that doesn't continue forever. At some point, that money runs out. And when that does, how does it get paid for? So will it reduce costs by that point when that runway runs out and the consumers of the AI product have to pay the real cost of what it takes to run it? I don't know. Hopefully, it goes down by then.

Cort (28:18)
Yeah. Yeah. In that same episode with you and Lance, you talk a lot about AI as a tool, right? And it's not something that you are scared of personally because it is a tool and you view it as a tool and an aid to you being more productive. I'm just curious your thoughts on, let's take it back over to our scrum masters, right? So. someone starting out as a Scrum Master role or recently got put into a Scrum Master role, how do you think that AI can be used as a tool to aid Scrum Masters? Do you think it should take over kind of backlog prioritization so that Scrum Masters can focus a little more on those interpersonal connections? Do you think it should take over managing meetings or running meeting ceremonies so that Scrum Masters can focus on more important things?

Brian Milner (29:10)
I kind of, the hair on the back of my neck goes up a little bit or I cringe a little bit about the words take over. Because I'm not sure there's anything I would say that it should take over right now. I think that there are some things that it can assist with and do a better job. Like it can, you can offload the manual portion of doing that to the AI. But you know, yeah. We've talked about scheduling meetings. That's an easy thing for something like AI to do. And it does a good job. One of my favorite things that I've learned is you can dump a bunch of data into it and then ask a big open-ended question like, what are maybe some insights from this data that I'm missing? What are some key?

Cort (29:37)
Right.

Brian Milner (29:54)
takeaways that I should have from this mass of data that you sort through. And that's a really good job of interpreting that kind of thing for us. So I think it's those kind of things that, from a Scrum Master perspective, I think you can probably use it to do a lot of things like charting out velocity and tracking other trends in our velocity.

Cort (30:00)
Right.

Brian Milner (30:15)
or the trends in other data maybe that I collect for my team that I'm not aware of. I think it starts to fail a lot in the creative areas. I'll just give you a practical example from my standpoint. I spoke at couple of conferences. I try to speak at conferences on occasion. And when you do that, you have to submit papers of saying, here's what I want to talk about. I cannot use AI and go to it right now and say, hey,

Cort (30:34)
No,

Brian Milner (30:37)
I want to speak at conferences next year about AI or about Agile and Scrum kind of topics. What are some ideas? What are some things I can talk about? It's not going to give me anything that's worth anything if I ask that question. But if I already have the idea, it can help me flesh out the idea. It can help me kind of with the way I present the idea. But the idea is mine, right?

Cort (30:49)
Right.

Brian Milner (31:03)
And I kind of think that's the thing is from a Scrum Master perspective, use it for the things that would take a lot of manual time to do. But you have to know your stuff to know that you need that thing.

Cort (31:12)
huh. OK, so yeah, just speaking out loud here, use an AI as like, hey, I'm noodling on this idea to get a little more engagement in our daily standups. Walk me through how this would go, or something like that.

Brian Milner (31:34)
Yeah, I mean, there's some particulars there. you probably want to prompt it to say, you know, I want you to act as an agile expert. Ask me all the questions that you need to ask me about why my daily scrums are failing and help me figure out, you know, three next steps I could take to try to improve the daily scrum of my team. That would be the kind of prompt I would enter. and kind of hear what the question, let it ask you questions, let it refine it a little bit, and it'll give you some things to try. Now, maybe only one of those things is worthwhile, but if you have one of them that's worthwhile, it's worthwhile.

Cort (32:10)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right, totally. Cool. Let's step away from AI real quick. I got one more question for you. And this can be like a, yep, we'll wrap it up after this one. One more question for you. And this was actually from the last episode with Scott, where the whole idea of it was you need to be nice by being honest, realistic, and I put in quotation marks, mean. Just being nice by being

Brian Milner (32:16)
All right, then we got to wrap up.

Cort (32:35)
Brutally honest, I guess in a good way of putting it when So again as the younger guy in this conversation as the one who doesn't quite have as much experience in having potentially career altering conversations as I like to call them When should I bring those up when should I be that kind of mean nice guy? Is it any time that I have my my foot in the door of? the CEO or someone who has a little more pull? Is it, should I only do it when I'm prompted or is there some other time that I should be bringing up these topics that are probably important, but you know, not the nice guy way of bringing them up.

Brian Milner (33:13)
Yeah, we were talking about the thing that I mentioned about the scenario where the guy found himself in the elevator with the CEO. And yeah, I do think there's an important kind of thing to keep in mind there where, you know, businesses are gonna expect you to kind of follow the chain of command a little bit. so, you know, I think you've got to balance that in with this. I'm not saying that you should... hey, everything that you think might be wrong in the company, go schedule a meeting with your CEO and go run and tell them. Like that's gonna make everyone between you and the CEO really mad and your CEO really mad, right? You gotta follow your chain of command a little bit. If I have a manager, I wanna be always kind of frank and honest with my manager so that they know they can trust me, that I'm gonna tell them.

Cort (33:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Brian Milner (34:02)
the reality and there it's just how blunt are you? How much do you soften when you say those things and try to say it in a polite way rather than saying, this sucks. You have to be able to play that game a little bit. But I I think you should always be honest with the people in your immediate chain of command.

Cort (34:13)
Right, right.

Brian Milner (34:24)
you, there's no, you know, definitive line about when you overstep that and go above and beyond. You kind of have to interpret that yourself. You can't do it too often, but if there are times when you feel like something is vital and it could actually have a real negative impact on your business, then, know, occasionally maybe it is okay to then go out of your chain of command and say, I just think this is really vital. And I think the company needs to know this. So I've kind of gone out of the normal chain of command. You're going to make the chain of command mad when you do that. So you have to weigh that and say, is it worth it? Do I feel like I can defend that I went outside the chain of command in this instance? that people won't see it as I'm always going outside the chain of command, but this was important enough to do it.

Cort (35:10)
Sure. Right. Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks, Brian. Thanks for getting that last one in there. Yeah.

Brian Milner (35:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, this has been fun. And we'll do this more often. We'll have some check-ins and try some more experience experiments. All right.

Cort (35:30)
Awesome. Well, thanks for having me on. Thanks for letting me ask these questions. thanks for a great conversation. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Brian Milner (35:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Cort.

Can being "nice" at work actually hold you back? Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unravel the myths around workplace "niceness," explore the balance between kindness and assertiveness, and reveal how honest communication can earn you respect—and maybe even that long-overdue promotion.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Scott dig deep into the question: Do nice guys (or gals) really finish last at work?

They discuss the critical balance between being accommodating and assertive, why conflict can be a tool for growth, and how emotional intelligence plays into team dynamics.

With stories, tips, and the psychological truths behind professional success, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate workplace interactions while staying true to themselves.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Scott Dunn
Bill of Assertive Rights
Elements of Agile
Radical Candor
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
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This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back and we're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today we have friend of the show, buddy of the show, Scott Dunn is back with us. Welcome in Scott.

Scott (00:13)
Hey Brian, great to be back as always. Love it.

Brian (00:17)
Love to have Scott on as always and if you've listened to some of the past episodes with him then you know why. If not, I encourage you to check it out after this episode. We wanted to have Scott on earlier this year just to talk about some things that might be percolating in a few people's heads with the turn of the year and kind of as you start to prepare and look forward and maybe even look back a little bit in things. And particularly deal with an issue around how people show up at work and Scott was saying to me earlier, kind of this phrase about, nice guys finish last? Do they finish first? Do they finish last? Can you be nice? Can you be nice at work and be promoted? Can you be nice at work and move upwards? Or do you have to not be nice?

Scott (01:03)
you

Brian (01:11)
in order to do that. So tell me a little bit about kind of the genesis of the idea from you, Scott. What have you been hearing or what's been crossing your path?

Scott (01:17)
Yeah, and I'm so glad we had a chance to talk about this because it's recent. So the first thing that sparked my thought on this, so granted in the leadership class, we talk about being a balance of accommodative and assertive, and I'll usually refer to a... a document called the Bill of Assertive Rights. And I was reading another book this week and actually it referenced the same thing. I thought, switching fast forward a few days and I'm doing an assessment with a company that's asked for help because they're not, they're struggling with quality, they're struggling with predictability. And I know what the leaders goals are for the efforts. And so now I'm meeting with all the team members to do an actual formal assessment for baseline. Now, and this assessment, you're going to go through, I don't know, 30, 40 questions. So it's not lightweight. It's trying to be tactical, like, Is the team well formed? Is the backlog in good shape? Do you have a roadmap? Are the leaders supporting the change? I mean, whether company level, product level, team level, and we even added some advanced questions. And the fascinating thing is over a course of all these questions, the answer was essentially, we're okay at that, right? If you ask them, are they doing this practice or not, they'd say, somewhat. And it didn't matter if it was the most basic thing at the team level or the most advanced thing at the corporate level, everything was okay. So when you look at the dashboard at the end, in our normal red, yellow, the whole thing was yellow. And so I just paused and said, you know, I've never seen this before. I said, yeah, I joke with them a little bit about that, but I said, you know, my friends kind of think about it. It actually doesn't make sense that you would be okay at the fundamental beginning things and also okay at advanced high level things. So it's usually progressive, right? You get the basics down like the satiric change curve. That's kind of what we're following. So now... And then what came out later in the conversations is that someone said basically, we're afraid to say things that are hard to hear. He used the word judgment. Like we don't want to kind of stand in judgment of others, but essentially saying something that someone's not going to hear, whether it's true or not, because they had nothing green, nothing red. So not doing well. And then the last thing that really got me triggered, you know, really start diving into this is this new year and people are getting this promotions and things going on at some of the companies. And there was a story of this one guy, like, I've worked here eight years and never been promoted. And yet everyone loves this person. Everyone likes this person. And I'm hopping on social media and someone asked that question, literally, like, give me an example of when nice guys finish last. And the guy said the same thing. He said, I am the one everyone goes to for help. I'm always ready to help. I'll do anything anyone needs. Everyone likes me. They all praise me. And I haven't been promoted in like 13 years. So partly for our own careers, partly for, you know, being a change agent, et cetera, I thought it'd be worth, you know, just having to... It's a great conversation topic,

Brian (03:51)
Yeah, well, I'll confirm part of that, or at least a couple of crossovers there with what you said, because there's an assessment kind of thing that we do at Mountain Good as well called Elements of Agile. And one of the things we learned early on in doing that was you would pull the data from the survey, from actually asking them. But then before we present it back, we always have a coach who kind of does interviews as well, and then manually can shift and adjust things. And one of the things I've learned as being one of those coaches who does that is if there's something that's negative that's said, if there's, you know, we give like a five point scale, you know, five is really great, one is terrible, and you know, what number is it? If it's a little bit over into the negative side, you never get anything that's like all the way over at one, right? Nobody ever comes back to you and says, that's terrible.

Scott (04:44)
you

Brian (04:46)
but they will say, that's a three or that's a two. If it's a two, that's severe. That's kind of what I've learned is two is severe, three is bad. And you kind of have to shift those things over one notch to say, people are, their niceness are entering into this and they don't want it to be, they don't want it to look too bad. They don't know how it's gonna reflect on them. They don't know how it's gonna reflect on others. And so they don't want it to look

Scott (04:50)
Yeah. Okay. Yes.

Brian (05:15)
too bad, so they tend to like skew it a little bit towards the positive. Yeah.

Scott (05:20)
Yes, and the thing I think is good from that so one I keep coming back to you know self preservation this world kind of wired for this and someone was mentioning recently It's you know, shouldn't say people are selfish. We should say they have self in the center So if I'm gonna I'm just with you like if I'm gonna give feedback I'm honestly just pass facts or for those listening. I think it's totally fine say well Is it really worth it for me to say something that I'm going to have to end up explaining if a manager figures out that was me that said it because I'm the only one working on that project or whatever, right? In some ways, you're like, no, it's not worth it. I'll just kind of gently say it's not going great. Like you said, it's almost like that bell curve you got shifted over because, the professor's like, there's only, I'll only give out two A's each semester because that's truly exceptional. And so it moves it. It's a little like that. But then when you and I were talking earlier, you mentioned that conflict quadrants. And I thought that was really great because I think that's a clear structure that people could refer to as well. It's kind think about how they have interactions not just at work, but seriously in our other relationships. thought I was looking at like, man, this is so fitting. So I just thought that was a good tool to share as well.

Brian (06:18)
Yeah, it's interesting to see how that kind of affects people and how that affects their answers and how it affects how they're reporting. And there's a crossover here as well, because I know if you've listened to this podcast for a while, last year I did a talk on conflict management and kind of how to navigate that a little bit from a team lead or a Scrum Master kind of perspective. And it's a very sticky area that I think there's not enough training and there's not enough kind of education in. And one of the kind of interesting things that comes out from that, or came out from that conversation was, well, a couple things. One is that conflict, oftentimes we attempt to avoid it entirely, but that's a big mistake. Conflict is actually necessary for growth and if there's not any conflict then you get the kind of bad situation of we never question each other, we never challenge each other. There's a story about how that was actually something that happened at Chernobyl. A lot of the research kind of pointed to that's actually part of the root cause of why that happened is that they were all experts in their field and so they had such respect for each other that they didn't question each other when something was gonna go wrong. And so they miss this kind of basic tenet of, no, if I see something that's not, doesn't look right, I should speak up. And it may cause conflict, but it's necessary. It's necessary for us to be better.

Scott (07:44)
Right. Absolutely. And that quadrant that the Thomas Kilman model is so great because, for me, well, two things was one, I love it that they can say, hi, be highly assertive. You can still be highly cooperative. And that's that collaborative environment. So if we're really trying to create solutions, whether that's at work or in our relationships, then you're gonna have to assert, you be assertive and not that I'm gonna raise my voice, but I should share what I think or my opinion or if I disagree. And I think some of that when I was coming back down to it is there's still a tendency for people to feel like I need to be in the goodwill of others, right? So from the, you know, the 10, the bill of assertive rights, the 10 assertive rights, that's one of them. Like I need to be independent of the goodwill of others so I can be honest. I'm not trying to be, we can do this respectfully and winsomely and not be a jerk. But you have to let go of, if I say something I don't like, that would be bad. Or if I say something that makes someone happy, right? And I used to struggle with that. I don't want them to be sad. I don't want them to be upset, right? So now back to that quadrant, I'm not asserting myself and I'm obviously not helping them, so I'm just avoiding. And I'm avoiding the situation. It's the elephant in the room in these meetings. And now everyone's almost like, as a culture, we're kind of in cahoots. We all agree we're not gonna say anything, which makes it even tougher for anyone else not to kind of stand up and do just what you're saying, which I think is absolutely true. Speaking of that, so.

Brian (09:07)
Yeah, well, and just to clarify, too, I mean, you're talking about the Thomas Killen model. If people aren't familiar with that, basically, it's five different responses that people typically have to conflict in one way, form. When they encounter conflict, it's competing, collaborating, avoiding, compromising, or accommodating. those are kind of the, there are variances between anything like that. There's going to be some gray levels between them. Those are kind of the basic points. And I was telling Scott earlier, one of the things we talk about in our ACSM is when we present this information is that you kind of have to get out of your head the idea that any of these are bad. For example, the competing approach to things, the competing approach says, my relationship with the person is not as important as my stance on whatever this issue is. I cannot budge from my position. And I will jeopardize the relationship if that's what's required. That's a competing approach. And you initially read that and think, that's wrong. Nobody should take that kind of approach to a conflict. And in general, that should be our default kind of approach to conflict. But there are times when that's the right approach. When someone says something that's completely out of bounds, completely out of line, I'm going to take a competing approach. And there are times when people need to

Scott (10:08)
Mm-hmm. you Okay.

Brian (10:30)
to be presented with that for their own good. That they kind of recognize, wow, this is so important that he's willing to kind of not have a relationship with me anymore if this continues. And that's important, I think. Yeah.

Scott (10:41)
Yes. yeah, and I think that those examples of the people that get promoted, someone else had referenced and said essentially, it's you telling the, you know, I won't say the ugly truth, but. The thing that no one else is saying, your ability to say what no one else is saying to someone in leadership or management earns their trust. So at some level, whoever is the leadership whisperer, telling the truth on some of these things, and there was only one slot that's gonna influence and lead us to be promoted into, right? I've gotta know, if I'm wise as a senior exec, I gotta have the wisdom to know that I know lots of people probably just tell me what I wanna hear. I'm looking for the person who tells me maybe what I don't wanna hear.

Brian (10:58)
Ha

Scott (11:24)
It does it in nice way again though. From that standpoint, I can see why some of those people get promoted and some don't because you're so nice they actually don't trust you. Because you're not, to your point, I'm not willing to have conflict. I'm not willing to gamble what you might think of me for the sake of the betterment of everyone else. So there's some part where I think it's good. My takeaway looking at some of this is come back around to say, all right, check yourself when you have these conversations, just do that mental pause and say, Are you truly acting independent of what they might think? You know, do you have their best sensors or harder? Are you okay if they might respond a certain way? But it's almost like check that I'm outcome independent. So I'm being straight up and honest with them. Cause in this case, doing this assessment, try to work with the team, like, well, how hard is it to help the team or help anyone else who's actually not being honest about where things are? I don't have anything to work with now, right? Or like, yeah, I got to just take what they say is not great and then slide it down. So I recognize. And honestly, it's actually bad, but for all of us and the change, not just for our careers, but as change leaders anyways, checking that we're comfortable doing that. think growing that comfort, know, comfortability we can do. And I think it's just great for the career. And I see people getting promoted in these opportunities. Absolutely worth it.

Brian (12:37)
Well, there's one other story I want to share here that kind of is, this is a story from my past, one of the jobs I worked at. There was a project that we worked on that a lot of people probably will identify with this. The managers in the organization had set a deadline for it without talking to the people who actually were going to do it. from the, yeah, right. And from the very start, my developers that,

Scott (12:56)
No.

Brian (13:01)
that worked with me there on it were saying, this is impossible. It's not just that this is a little bit off, it's completely impossible. There's no way that we're going to do this. But the managers were like, well, you'll get it done. You'll get it done. And so they went forward and publicized the schedule and went all the way up to the top of the company. And the CEO knew that that was the timeline. And well, the CEO found himself in an elevator with one of my developers at one point.

Scott (13:17)
Board.

Brian (13:30)
just to ask him, hey, how's that project going? And my developer kind of sighed a little bit and said, well, you do you want the truth? Do you want the picture that everyone's painting? And he was like, well, obviously, I always want the truth. And so he told him, and he had a phrase that he used there that has stuck with me to this day. And that is, he said, bad news is not like wine. It doesn't get better with age.

Scott (13:40)
Wow. Yeah.

Brian (13:57)
And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind is that when there's something wrong, when there's something that's not right, the sooner we can identify it and shed light on it, the faster we can do something about it, the more options we have to do something about it. And the closer it is to when it's due or when we're supposed to have that thing happen or whatever, the less that we can do about it. So I'll even give a shout out. know. I can't imagine he's listening, but.

Scott (13:58)
Ooh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian (14:25)
But that was a guy named Dave Ellet. So Dave, if you're listening, it's still stuck with me to this day. But that's a great phrase. And I think it's really apparent here. mean, being a nice guy, it's nicer, I think, to make sure that people understand the truth than it is to let the deception go on.

Scott (14:29)
Ha ha. Yeah, so two things on that Brian is one totally agree with you It might be hard to deliver some of this news But if you fast forward how much harder it will be for them when they have no time to make adjustments for the customer or the DNA Right and I'll tell them that right especially the product owner class You do me no favors by giving me like a week or two to tell the customer actually No, tell me now six months out that there might be some concerns, right? That's a lot easier. It's not easy, but man. It gets a lot worse That's one. I love way there's the example does not get better with age. The other thing is I think on a personal level, those who are not maybe saying what should be said or needs to be said or giving people that kind of, you know, honest feedback, you know, would you rather know now or in your performance review that there's a problem to not tell them that is in some ways what I was feeling for me is I'm actually now trying to control the optics I've seen. So it's actually a weird, it can be seen as a weird way of like, I'm just being selfish. So I'm actually not a nice guy. I'm a guy with these covert contracts about I want you to think this of me, so therefore I'm actually telling you the truth as your own coworker or peer about something that's really important you should know about, or my manager. I'm actually making sure that I, you know, take me first and take care of myself, but actually in a very short-term way out of fear versus a good worker would tell the truth and as I'm saying, probably he has more career opportunities by being one of the few people that. is a truth-telling organization like your developer and with the elevator to CEO because think about what CEO thinks of him now as well as what CEO now thinks about all the other one else is saying like, no, we're on track, we're on track, right? Those just probably reversed opinion in his ideas in his head about who he can trust to tell the truth about where things are going in these critical projects. So great example, great example.

Brian (16:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that gets to kind of the heart of this topic too. mean, you think you're talking about, you know, can you be nice? And if you're nice, is it possible to be recognized and still move ahead? And to me, think there's, this is where it starts to get really deeply psychological because I think you have to question what is your definition of nice? You know?

Scott (16:47)
Hmm.

Brian (16:53)
Because I think some people have a misaligned definition of what it means to be nice. I don't think it's nice to allow the deception to go on. I think that's not nice. I think that's something that, you know what I mean? You don't appreciate, like you said, as a product owner, as the leader in the organization, that's not nice to them to let that go on. And we might sit back and say, I'm not going to...

Scott (17:14)
No.

Brian (17:20)
I'm not going to raise red flags. I'm not going to be the squeaky wheel. I'm going to be the guy who just gets by because I'm a nice guy. We're using guy, but please understand. It's just a term. It's just a phrase that applies to women as much as it does men. So I'm not saying the gender specific thing here. Please, please forgive us for that. But just that that's kind of the concept behind it is I don't want to make waves. I want to be the nice person in this organization. I want to be seen as nice.

Scott (17:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian (17:45)
your definition of nice might need to be readjusted.

Scott (17:48)
Yeah, huge point. think that kind of those words matter. And I think if someone would look at what they like, re-evaluate what you think is going to get you where you want to go, as well as what you would want from others as a teammate. then, and then for me, what I have to do is I have to backtrack and say, so why did you not say anything in the meeting? There's a time way back when I was working with the manager in the meeting that he was very supportive of what his colleague was sharing and the idea of someone she's presenting it to the other peers and the VP, everyone liked it except for one person who spoke out. because that one person, you know, the VP put the whole thing on hold afterwards. just asked that manager said, I thought you liked her idea. He said, yeah, no, I liked her idea a lot. So when the other person says something, why, why didn't you say something back? Right. And said, you stand up for what you thought was a good idea. What she was saying. But was the same idea of like, don't want to make any waves. But he said later, goes, that was the most important question I had to be asked about. I do need to speak out. I do need to be assertive in these meetings and say what my view is too, not just what they say, go along to get along. Like, and now we're just letting, you know, projects and this should go off track, right? No one's calling it for what it is.

Brian (18:52)
Ha Right. Yeah. So I think it's possible.

Scott (18:57)
So I think, yeah, that part.

Brian (18:59)
Sorry, I was just gonna say, I think it's perfectly possible to be assertive at certain points and take strong stances on certain things, but not compromise your niceness. I don't think that makes you a mean person. It may not make you everyone's favorite person every moment of the day, but it's nicer. People respect people who are honest.

Scott (19:25)
That's a good word, respect. Right. Right. Yeah. I wish there was a secondary word and we can be friendly in these other things. and I love what you said. Like it may be nice to not tell the, you know, you think it's nice, but people should know those things that they're not hearing. And that part's not nice. I think that aspect of maybe self-preservation to the detriment of others and then re-examining why, why do I feel like I need to do that? You know, for me, that was probably at work as well. Right. Is it, what was one person said? Harm versus hurt. This might hurt them in the moment, but it doesn't harm. So the shot to the dentist, the needle, that does hurt, but it's not harming them. Sugar tastes great, doesn't hurt at all, but it harms you. So kind of maybe reflect back on what does it mean to have your peers, your colleagues, your company's best interest at heart, and then what keeps us from that, right? And what are we looking out for? Are we that risk anyways? Yeah. In any case, I like that tool. I'm glad you brought that up.

Brian (20:19)
Yeah, I think there's also, I think it's important to say, know, like this with a lot of things, there's a balance. And we probably, know Scott, you probably have had this as well, but I've had a couple of people I've worked with throughout my career who just, they weren't concerned about being the nice person. They were much more of the outspoken and they would say things very bluntly when something was not going.

Scott (20:25)
Mm-hmm. You

Brian (20:43)
in a good direction. I think that's where NICE enters the equation, right? NICE is not letting it go, but NICE is being able to cushion a little bit what it is you're saying so that it's not just a slap across the face, but it's more of just maybe we want to reconsider that. Maybe we want to think about that, or have we thought of, or have we considered what the implication might be in this area. That's a much more digestible way of taking in that kind of news than it is to just say, well, that sucks, or that's going to be terrible, or you're going to fail miserably at that. And I've had people I've worked with who that's the kind of way that they respond.

Scott (21:14)
Yeah, right. Yeah, almost like a judgmental view of that. It comes across and I think some people maybe miss that. I know there's a big, you know, space on emotional IQ or EQ. I think that that's really valid and kind of checking yourself on that. I think some people don't read those. signals or they'll say like, well, someone needs to say it. Well, you didn't have to say it like that though, because we, I think we all want to be effective. So if we're not careful, then you, might be true, but they're not hearing you now. So you're still not effective in what you want to do, which is communicate that concern. So there is some part and that's what I like about radical candor. We do want empathy and we do want to care. So what you're kind of touching on, which I think is really great. If you take it that away, then we're just going to, we could actually make things even worse. So it's not a license. partly I see happen a lot and maybe you've been in these meetings and my friends listening, you know, you probably have too, where something said that you can tell there's a lot more underneath that, like that person's just mad, right? You can just tell bitterness or resentment or something's coming out. And again, other people can read that and it's not helpful. One, probably doesn't help you get your idea across, but two, it's just not helpful for you or to carry that around. So for me, I'm always trying to catch it like, is there emotion underneath this, if so? You gotta deal with that. Like you might need to wait to say this until there's not, you don't feel that emotion coming across. Cause then those things get said like you'd said under the guise of, I'm just trying to be honest with them. But look, that was a lot more that wasn't necessary and there's emotion. We've all sometimes worked at places with people that maybe wrote us the wrong way, or you've been a certain job for a long time and it can kind of bubble out in those meetings. So again, a great opportunity to kind of check and say, Where's my emotional bandwidth as I go and have this conversation? And I think also, what do you want? What do you want from the outcome of these things? Some we can control, some we can't. I might want to raise, but I'm not in control of that. But I'm in control of what time I show up, what I'm reading for work, being ready for meetings. I'm in control of that, and hopefully those things could come. So also, I know it's near the beginning of the year, get opportunity on goals and being clear about what you want. Because I think if we don't have a true north for ourself, it's easy to be what everyone else wants at the workplace. We don't actually have a sense of self anyway. So yeah, sure. I'll do whatever you want for me. And it's not even maybe, you know, maybe helping me move forward as well or maybe I'm sacrificing. So that's good timing for that as well for folks who are into doing goals or you have your, you know, 2025 roadmap in front of you. It might be a personal growth area. think it's good for everyone to take a look at at least.

Brian (23:44)
Yeah, and I think it's good to we propose this kind of can you get ahead? And so there is kind of the the weird marriage here a little bit of of how leadership plays into this. And, know, there is a view of management or leadership sometimes that is one that is much more authoritarian. And so I've known people who feel like, well, if I'm going to get to that level, then I need to.

Scott (23:48)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian (24:09)
be able to demonstrate that a little bit more. And I think there's a misunderstanding there as well. I don't think that's really what's required or is what's helpful in a leadership kind of position. It's kind of that whole paradigm of, do you feel your job as the leader is to push everyone towards the goal? Or do you feel like the...

Scott (24:12)
Mm.

Brian (24:31)
the job is to clear everything out in front of them so that they can easily reach the goal. That's a big difference in management style that I think can be really reflective in whether they're seen as nice or not nice.

Scott (24:37)
Yeah. Yeah, right. It's funny you say that because I was just hearing this from someone else as well. Like, the amount of leaders out there who don't have clarity on their goals and vision. So to your point, now you made it doubly hard for my people to try to aim themselves towards these goals. You know, of essentially self-organized, self-leadership, work on themselves to get there. It's lot easier if we have the vision, the goals in front of us. That's one thing I like, I was talking to my team earlier today about OKRs can be pushed down or rolled out from the top, of course, because they're the ones with the goals and the vision, but boy, it's an enablement for people then to figure out how to do the things they need to do to get there. And without that, we're rid of a struggle. So... whether I'm showing up as a kind of leader. So now what I'm left with, there's not a vision to motivate and guide my people and support them as a servant leader to get there. Now we're just back down to tasks. And I think those tasks can come down to like authoritarian, I just need you to do this, take out, take care of that problem, fix this, put out that fire. And that's one, you gotta make sure they do it and do it right. Cause it's at that level, there's not a lot of space for creativity and freedom. And we're not building anything big or necessarily. And projects can even kind of break down into that. So I'm glad you're bringing that up on the leadership styles. We don't have to always show up and be domineering. I think I want to be the kind of leader that is more about we than I and you. pulling something together and coaching up, but without the vision guidance, that might be an opportunity. Whatever department people are in, you can always have that conversation. Or even for the people themselves, again, you can always work on that. But those leadership styles, I think, fold in really nicely, say, do we have a vision and goal to catalyze people towards? Or am I just left with, you know, compliance, task type, manager, I just got to make sure people doing the right thing and complete things when I told them they need to all that, like the old school way. I think there's still probably a lot of that.

Brian (26:35)
Yeah. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, I completely understand from a leader, from a manager perspective, there are some basic kind of things that I think we have responsibility for. If you have an employee, let's say, that's stealing from the company or something, you're not going to just approach that as, hey, well, I'm not going to push them about stealing. I'm just going to try to clear the obstacles from

Scott (26:58)
Ask them how they feel about the stealing.

Brian (27:00)
Right, right, right. mean, don't anyone listen to this and think that we're saying that there's not that basic responsibility. I think that that is still part of being that leader and being a manager in some way, or form. I used to have a manager and for a while I sold shirts outside of Phantom of the Opera as part of the merchandise career there for that. And my boss there had this philosophy style of just, hey, you do your job. And, we're friends. We're the time in between, we just hang out and have fun. But if you're not doing your job, then we have to have a conversation. And I think that's kind of the basis there is like, don't, don't put me in that position as the manager. It's not, you know, you're not respectful of me when that's the case. and sometimes that, that, that occurs and you know, sometimes people have to be fired and all those other kinds of things. I get that. but that's, I think you can. You know, I remember one specific person that I had to fire at one point that, you know, it was, I felt after the, the event that it was actually the kindest thing I could have done to that person because they needed that, that to happen to them. Believe me, I know it's not good to get fired. I understand that, but this person had enough going on in their life that they needed that kick to do something else because they were not going into a good place. And, I just think that sometimes that's.

Scott (28:03)
you

Brian (28:16)
That's the kindest thing to do.

Scott (28:18)
my goodness, my first boss that pulled me into his office to say my performance wasn't adequate. He was just, and he, promise you, he probably said it just the way I'm saying it to you. I thought I was gonna die. But it was, I really did. just like, my heart's, you my throat and mouth totally dry. But it was the best thing I did, because I went back and like.

Brian (28:27)
Yeah.

Scott (28:37)
Yeah, why the heck am I not getting as much done as everyone else? Because I literally was just like an office clerk typing in stuff and word. There's no real complexity to that. But it was what I would, because then I started paying attention. I never had to get talked to again like that. Thank goodness. But boy, was like you said, kind of thing you could have done. And again, I thought I was going to die. I didn't die. I needed to hear that feedback and then fix it. You mentioned something that also makes you think of what Google's research had found about that you need to know their best teams are ones that include the they know they have dependable team members. So the managers gotta say, look, if there's an issue on someone your team is not delivering when you need them to, then yeah, I need to step and help. That should be to be fixed. Google's saying the team members need that, but they also need meaning and impact, that their work makes a difference. Their work is bigger than it just has. So I think that's that nice combination of, I will step aside and address this assertively until that's not okay. that we got to perform this way. At the same time, I'm casting a vision about how this has impact bigger than just this team and you're part of something bigger than you show up in your code or your test or whatever. So I like that situational leadership that's going across. It's kind of reflected in their research as well. I'm glad you brought up that story. Thank you for management.

Brian (29:46)
Yeah, so I So I think I think it's uh, you know if I were to try to sum that I just I think You know when I'm asked a question, can you be nice or do nice guys finish last? I I don't think so. I mean, I don't think that you're gonna finish last just because you're being nice Depending on how you define nice You know, you can't you you have to be honest you have to be you know, entering those relationships in a healthy way. But that's not being not nice. That's that's just showing up and and giving your best to the job, I think. And if you do that in a respectful way and in a kind way, I think that makes you a nice person. And I don't think that person necessarily is going to finish last for those reasons. At least that's my opinion.

Scott (30:25)
Yeah. Well, I like that. And again, on your chart, I like the fact that main thing is be assertive. You have an opinion. Reminds you of the JavaScript, right? Assert. You're just saying it. Just saying it needs to be said. And some people might edit themselves to say, well, who am I? And I remember reading somewhere about, look, you have value in what you say because you exist. It doesn't have to be that you worked there for five years and you've got

Brian (30:54)
Yeah.

Scott (30:57)
you've written books, technical books, it could be that you're a thinking human being who is smart and knows stuff and has opinions. That's why we share what we share and not to edit ourselves out of that saying I shouldn't assert myself because of X or Y. anyways, a good conversation for the beginning of the year. And I like what you're rounding out that nice guys don't finish last. Maybe there's another word and maybe also there's a balance for these guys and girls as well.

Brian (31:23)
Yeah, I agree. Well, Scott, thanks for coming on. I appreciate you making the time and it's always great to have you on the show.

Scott (31:30)
My pleasure. lot of fun. Thanks, Brian.

Is Agile still relevant in today’s fast-paced world? Brian and Joshua Kerievsky reveal the four game-changing principles of Modern Agile that prioritize safety, empowerment, and continuous value delivery.

Overview

In this episode, Brian Milner sits down with Joshua Kerievsky, a pioneer in the Agile community and the creator of Modern Agile.

They discuss how Agile practices have evolved, the critical role of safety and empowerment, and how to deliver value continuously in today’s fast-paced world. Don’t miss these insights into creating better teams, products, and results through simplicity and experimentation.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Joshua Kerievsky
Industrial Logic
Joy of Agility by Joshua Kerievsky
Modern Agile
#33 Mob Programming with Woody Zuill
#51: The Secrets of Team Safety with Julie Chickering
Badass: Making Users Awesome by Kathy Sierra
The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
The Lean Startup by Eric Ries
Experimentation Matter: Unlocking the Potential of New Technologies for Innovation by Stefan H. Thomke
Agile For Leaders
Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course
Accurate Agile Planning Course
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Joshua Kerievsky is the founder and CEO of Industrial Logic and author of Joy of Agility. An early pioneer of Extreme Programming, Lean Software Development, and Lean Startup, Joshua is passionate about helping people achieve genuine agility through principle-based approaches like Modern Agile.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back. And this is another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm here as I always am. I am Brian Milner and today I am joined by Joshua Kerievsky and really excited to have Joshua here with us. Welcome in Joshua.

Joshua Kerievsky (00:16)
Thank you so much, Brian. Happy to be here.

Brian (00:19)
Very excited for Joshua to be here. Joshua's been around for a while. He's been doing this for a long time. He said, you know, when we were talking before, and he's been involved with Agile before, it was called Agile. And, you know, that probably tells you all you need to know there. But a couple other things here about him, just so that you kind of can place him a little bit. His company is Industrial Logic, Inc. and he's the CEO and founder of that company. He has a book called Joy of Agility that's out there that I highly recommend. It's a really great book. And he's also closely associated with something that maybe you've been aware of, maybe you've heard of, maybe you haven't, but something called Modern Agile. And that's what I thought we'd focus on here for our discussion is really to try to understand a little bit about it. especially for those of you, maybe you haven't heard of it, haven't been around it before. So... Why don't we start there, Joshua? Tell us a little bit about what was the need that was trying to be filled with something like modern Agile.

Joshua Kerievsky (01:19)
Well, it goes back to a conference I attended in Prague back in around 2015. And I was giving a speech, a keynote speech there, and that ended. And then I went and said, well, I'm going to go join the OpenSpace. And I was just looking at what people were talking about at the OpenSpace. And at that point in time, I had already been experimenting with a ton of stuff that just kind of different from what we had been doing 10 years earlier or even later than that. I mean, just this was new things that we were doing, whether it was continuous deployment or ideas from lean startup or ideas from the Poppendiecks and lean concepts applied to agility or just a lot of things that were just different. And none of the sessions I was seeing in the open space seemed to be talking about any of that stuff, like giving up story points or moving away from sprints until continuous flow. just nothing was being talked about. So I just said, well, I'm going to host a session, and I'll call it, I don't know, a modern Agile. And so that's as far as I got in terms of thinking about the name. I just wanted to run a session where we could talk about, there's a lot of new things we're doing that kind of display some of the older ideas. And they're very useful, I found. So the session ended up getting a lot of attention. 60, 70 people showed up there. So we had a big group. And it was well received. People were fascinated by the stuff that they weren't aware of. And so I then repeated this open space event in Berkeley. Like a month later, was Agile Open Door Cal in Berkeley was running and did it again. And again, there was tremendous interest. in this, so much so that I decided to write a blog and wrote the blog and started getting more conversations happening. And that sort of began the movement of describing this thing called Modern Agile. And it took a few twists and turns in the beginning, but it wasn't sort of, I guess, if anything, I felt like Agile needed to be a little more simple. in terms of what we were explaining, because it was starting to get very complex with frameworks, enterprise frameworks coming along like safe and just too many moving parts. And so what ended up happening is I wrote some things and people started to notice, there's kind of like four things there that are really valuable. One of them was The names changed a little bit over time. But anyway, what ended up was four principles emerged. And that really became modern Agile.

Brian (03:58)
That's awesome. just for listeners here, I've pitched attending conferences in the past. If you've listened to this podcast, you've heard me say that, and I'll create things come out of that. And here's an example, right? This is something that was open space discussion. Open space, if you're not familiar with that, at conferences, can, if there's an open space day or a couple of days, then anyone can present any topic they want. And whoever shows up is who shows up. And this one got a lot of attention. And a movement grew from this open space topic, which is awesome. So let's talk. You mentioned there's four principles here. And I like the distinction here we're making also between the frameworks and the practices versus the cultural aspects or the philosophy behind it. And returning to those roots a little bit more from what Agile originally was. So you mentioned there's kind of four areas of this. Let's walk our way through those. I know the first one, or one of the first ones here is make people awesome. So help us understand, what do you mean by make people awesome?

Joshua Kerievsky (04:59)
Probably the most controversial of principles, because you'll get people coming along saying, wait a minute, people are already awesome. What are you talking about? And it comes from my, I'm a big fan of Kathy Sierra. And her blog was incredible. And her book, she wrote a book called Badass, Making Users Awesome. And in her book, she was really wonderfully clear about

Brian (05:07)
You

Joshua Kerievsky (05:24)
that teams that build products ought to focus on the user of the products more than the product itself. In other words, she would say, don't try to create the world's best camera. Try to create the world's best photographers. Big subtle difference there. Like that is focusing so much on empowering the users, making them awesome at their work or whatever they're doing, whether it's art or accounting or whatever, whatever your product does, how can you give them something that elevates their skills, that gets them to a point of awesomeness faster? And that's what she was talking about. So I thought, what a wonderful message. And initially, I used language like make users awesome. you know, having been an entrepreneur myself and created products and sold them and You learn a heck of a lot when you make your own product. And we've made several products over the years at Industrial Logic, probably the most successful of which was our e-learning software. And that has taught me so many, so many lessons. One of them is you have to serve an ecosystem of people. You can't just make your main user awesome. What about the person who's buying the software? How do you make them awesome in terms of helping them buy something that's going to get used? If they buy your e-learning and they never use it, they've wasted a lot of money. So we've got to make sure that their reputation is intact because they made an excellent investment and it got used and it got into valuable, it created value in the company. So how do I make the buyer awesome? How do I make the person that like rolls out the licenses to people awesome? How do I make their experience awesome? How do I make my colleagues awesome so that we love what we're doing and really enjoy working together? So it kind of morphed from make users awesome to make people awesome. And it's so expanded. If anything, we set the bar higher. And all of the principles of modern agile are like unachievable. They're all kind of high bars, right? But they're the goal that we go towards. So that really is it. It's about creating

Brian (07:23)
Ha

Joshua Kerievsky (07:35)
you know, wonderful, you know, the in Great Britain, they use awesome kind of sarcastically sometimes, right? They'll say, well, that's awesome. You know, and so for them, it would be brilliant. You know, I thought of making an English version. We have many translations of modern agile, and I thought of making an English version, which would be a proper British English version, make people brilliant. But it's meant to be to empower folks to give them something. And it's so it is.

Brian (07:43)
Ha You

Joshua Kerievsky (08:04)
It does have a product focus in the sense of we're typically building a system or a product that someone's going to use and it's going to give them skills they didn't have before or abilities they didn't have before that are going to be very valuable.

Brian (08:18)
Yeah, I love that. And there's a sort of a servant nature to that servant leaders, not servant leadership as much, but servant nature of I'm serving these people and how do I, how do I serve them in a way that really empowers them? Kind of reminds me of like, you know, the, the great principle with, with dev ops of just, know, if I can, if I can empower the developers to be able to do these things on their own. And so they don't need someone else to come and check the box and do everything for them. You're making them awesome. You're empowering them to be more than they were otherwise.

Joshua Kerievsky (08:54)
Yes, yes, absolutely. I I think we've seen a history in the software field of a lot of tools coming along and helping. It's not just tools, it's also methods as well. I mean, I'm entirely grateful to the Agile software development movement because it helped nudge everything towards a far better way of working and to make us more awesome at our craft. yeah, you have to have a North Star though. If you're going to build something, You have to know, what are we going for here? What are we shooting for? And with Cathy's influence, again, it's not so much make the greatest product in the world. It's, that focus on the users, the people who are going to be using the work, using the product.

Brian (09:34)
That's really good. Let's talk about the second one then on my list here, the make safety a prerequisite. What was the point here behind this principle?

Joshua Kerievsky (09:40)
Yes. So starting probably around 2011 or so, I could not stand going to the Agile Conference anymore. It had just become too commercial and too filled with just people hocking stuff. And it just was bothering me too much. I couldn't go. So I ended up going to South by Southwest, which is an

Brian (09:54)
You

Joshua Kerievsky (10:09)
Enormous conference tens of thousands of people show up So it'd be 20,000 30,000 40,000 people showing up for these for this event, which is musical film technology just it's just wild and I came across this book by Charles Duhigg called the power of habit. He was there that year and In that book. Well, first of all that particular year was 2012 that I went my first year there it poured The rain, it was every day, it was unusual for that time, but it was just like pouring rain. So what could you do? I bought some books and I was sitting there in my room reading them. And I'm reading this book, The Power of Habit, and I come across this chapter called The Ballad of Paul O'Neill. Now who the heck's Paul O'Neill? Well, it turns out Paul O'Neill is this incredible guy, a complete business maverick. He ended up becoming the treasury secretary under Bush and not. in 2000 for a short period of time, but that's another story. And he ran Alcoa for about 13 or 14 years. And so the Ballot of Paul O'Neill is very much about what he did at Alcoa to turn the company around. And in essence, you could say he made safety a prerequisite. That safety was his guiding light in turning that company around, which meant left people empowered to do all kinds of things. So it went way beyond safety, but started there. And it's an incredible story. I've written about it in Joy of Agility. I got so into Paul O'Neill that I ended up interviewing his main lieutenant. And then I got a chance to interview him a couple of times. the man's a genius. He passed away a few years back. Absolute genius. this concept of safety started to really pull at me in the sense that I felt, first of all, extreme programming, and I'm a big practitioner of extreme programming, brings a tremendous amount of safety to software development. It may not be as explicit in saying safety, safety, safety. When you look at extreme programming, doesn't really talk about safety, but it's implicit. And these days, Kent Beck's much more vocal about, you One of his missions is to make software development safer for geeks. But safety to me is almost like I found my home. Like safety was something that, what I learned through Paul O'Neill was that it's a doorway to excellence. And he transformed a hundred year old company with safety. I would complain about companies we were working with that were 25 years old and had an embedded culture. Like, how are we gonna change this company? But safety started to be this thing that I hadn't really thought enough about, and making it explicit opened up a lot of doors, right? And I became very interested in the work of Amy Edmondson, who's extremely famous today, but back then she was not so famous. And huge fan of hers. I, you know, I can email her and she'll email me back and she wrote a nice thing about my book. So. She has done some incredible work there. And so when we talk about safety in modern agile, it's psychological safety. It's financial safety. It's any of the safeties. There are many safeties that we could talk about. And it looks at all of them, right? It's brand safety, software safety in terms of security. you know, of the software and on and on and on. So make safety prerequisite is vast and big in terms of what we're trying to do there. Making it a prerequisite means it's not an afterthought and it's not a priority that shifts with the winds. It is permanent. It is something that we know we have to have in place. And it's very, very hard to achieve. Just like make people awesome is hard to achieve. Boy, is make safety a prerequisite difficult.

Brian (13:43)
Hmm. Yeah, I love Amy Edmondson's work as well. I'm just kind of curious. does the safety kind of inclusive of things like quality as well? Do you intend that to be part of what you mean by safety?

Joshua Kerievsky (14:11)
Well, mean, to the extent that it makes it safer to do good software development. So if bugs are happening all the time, you can't make people awesome, typically if you don't have quality. If you have really poor quality, nobody's being made awesome. They're experiencing all kinds of problems with your product. So make people awesome and make safety a prerequisite are very much tied together. That is, there is no real excellence without safety. You could think you're having an excellent experience, so that all of a sudden there's a major problem, and boy, are you unhappy. So they really go hand in hand. You could have the most incredible restaurant, and then one day you've got food poisoning happening. Great, no one's come to your restaurant. So you will not make anyone awesome if you don't make safety a prerequisite, and quality is part of that.

Brian (14:57)
Awesome. Well, let's move on to the next one then, because the next category is one that just resonates with me a lot. Experiment and learn rapidly. What was kind of the thought behind this one?

Joshua Kerievsky (15:06)
Yeah, and this is one where it that's shorthand, if you will, because you can only fit so many words on a wheel there. But it's important to know that that really means experiment rapidly and learn rapidly. And that comes a lot out of it in the influences of something like Lean Startup. I'm a huge fan of that book and of Eric's work, Eric Reese's work.

Brian (15:13)
Ha

Joshua Kerievsky (15:29)
And the fact that we can experiment rapidly and learn rapidly rather than just building everything and then learning slowly. Right? How can we do cheap experiments quickly to decide what's important to work on and what isn't? Let's not build stuff nobody wants. Let's find more time with our customers and understand their needs better so we can build the right things that make them awesome. In other words, and a lot of these are interconnected. In many respects, modern Agile is a Venn diagram. ideally want all four principles to be overlapping. And right there in that middle is where you really want to be. Not easy. But experimenting, learning rapidly, yeah. So challenge yourself to find ways to do quick, cheap, useful experiments. You can do lot of unuseful experiments. Amazon experienced that. There's a story in my book about how Amazon had to start just shepherding the experiments a little more and having some better criteria. Because you could do an endless array of experiments and not get anywhere. There's a wonderful book called Experimentation Matters by a Harvard business professor. Wonderful book as well. But I love experimentation and learning. And I see it as critical to building great products. So that's that principle there.

Brian (16:46)
Yeah, there's a real difference, I think, in organizations that put value on that learning process. if you see it as a valuable thing, that we invest time to gain knowledge, then that really can truly make an impact when you go forward. I know I've talked about this in classes sometimes where people will say, isn't it a little bit selfish from the organization to try to always just figure out what's going to sell the best? or what's going to work the best in advance of putting something out. My response is always, well, yes, there is a benefit to the business, but there's a benefit to the customer as well because they would rather you work on things that they care more about.

Joshua Kerievsky (17:24)
That's right. Yeah. I mean, we once put out an experimental product to a large automotive company. And we were really excited about it. We had a whole list of features we wanted to add to it. But we were like, you know what? Let's just get this primitive version kind of in their hands just to see what happens. it turned out that we learned very rapidly that they couldn't run the software at all. There was some proxy. that was preventing communication with our servers from their environment. So it was like, excellent. We learned really quickly that instead of those fancy new features we want to add to this thing, we're going to fix the proxy problem. And to me, that's the nature of evolutionary design is that we create something, get it out there quickly, and learn from it rapidly and evolve it. So it goes hand in hand with that as well.

Brian (18:11)
That's awesome. Well, there's one category left then, and that is deliver value continuously. So what was the genesis of that? Thinking about delivering value continuously.

Joshua Kerievsky (18:19)
So that was heavily influenced by my own journey into continuous delivery and continuous deployment and that whole world. We got into that very early. I was lucky enough to catch a video by Timothy Fritz, who he worked with Eric at IMBU. And he coined the term continuous deployment. And that video is actually no longer on the

Brian (18:43)
Ha

Joshua Kerievsky (18:44)
But this was something that I became enamored of was doing continuous deployment. And we started doing it at Industrial Logic with our own e-learning software back in about 2010. And by the time you get to like 2015, it's like, hey folks, there's this thing where you can do a little bit of work and ship it immediately to production in a very safe way, a safe deployment pipeline. It's friggin' awesome. But the principle doesn't just apply to that because this modern agile is not just about software development. It's how can I work in a way that gets value in front of people as fast as possible? So for example, if I'm working on a proposal, great, I'm not going to work for two weeks and then show you something. I'm going to put something together, a skeleton, I'm going to show it to you and say, what do you think? Does this add value? Where would we improve this? Blah, blah, Again, going hand in hand with evolutionary design. continuous delivery of value is something that is a way of working. With artists that I work with, they'll do a quick sketch or two or three sketches of something first before we start settling in on which one do we like the best and how do we want to craft and refine that. So there's a way of working in which you're delivering value much more finely grained and approaching continuously instead of in bigger batches.

Brian (20:05)
Yeah. I love the connection there between artists as well, because I've got a background in music, and I'm thinking about how when you go to write a song or create a new work like that, you start off with the roughest of demo tapes, and you move from there to increasingly more sophisticated versions of it until you finally have the finished product. But no one thinks that's strange or thinks that's weird in any way. But you're right. Sometimes there's this attitude or kind of I think in some organizations of, we can't let anyone see that until it's absolutely finished, until it's done.

Joshua Kerievsky (20:39)
Yeah, yeah, and that maybe that's that there's some fear there, you know, because they don't want to be thought of as, you know, being lesser because they put something rough in front of someone. Whereas I view it as a, you know, to me, it's a sign of weakness when you when you only send something polished because you haven't had the courage or the sense of safety to put something rough where we can make better decisions together early on. So. There's a lot of learning, I think, around that. But it's a challenging principle of its own, deliver value continuously. And people would say, well, what does value mean? Value is one of those words where it's unclear, because you could improve the internal design of a software system. Is that value? It probably is. But you've got to be able to quantify it or prove that it's going to help make things more graceful in terms of flowing features out. yeah, quantifying, communicating what the value is. is important. I'm also a big fan of maximizing the amount of work not done, as it says in the manifesto. So how can we do less and deliver more sooner? Our motto in industrial logic now is better software sooner. And a lot of these principles go straight into that. that drives it.

Brian (21:38)
Yeah. That's really great. Yeah, I love these four principles and I think that they really represent a lot. There's a lot that's baked into each one of these things. And I'm sure as you kind of put this together with the community and started to talk more about it, I'm sure there were some challenges. I'm sure people came up to you and said, well, what about and how about this? Is there anything now looking back on this that you'd say, gosh, we really... really didn't quite cover this or, know, this is maybe I could fudge it and squeeze it in this area, but you know, there's this other thing that I really think would be important to kind of mention here as well.

Joshua Kerievsky (22:28)
Well, you know, it's funny, because I thought I was going to write a book. I started collecting stories. I love telling stories, and I find stories to be a great way to help educate people. Not the only way, right? But as part of some of the workshops I give, you tell a story. Hopefully it's a story that's sticky, that sticks in the person's brain. And over the years, I collected stories like that, stories of agility. I thought I'd be writing a book about modern agile when I started writing Joy of Agility. Gradually, as I wrote more and more stories, they didn't quite fit into all those four principles. And I think the lesson I learned there was that I was starting to talk about what pure Agile means, the word Agile. What does it really mean to be Agile? Whereas modern Agile is really almost in the context of product development, of building services or products for people. Whereas Agile itself is even more pure. And so the... the book itself got into the difference between quickness and hurrying, which you can relate to this. You could say experiment and learn rapidly. Well, OK, maybe we shouldn't rush it. Don't rush. Be quick, but don't hurry is one of the mantras in Joy of Agility. So adapting, right? Adapting, we talk about adapting all the time. So to be agile, you need to be able to adapt quickly. These four principles in modern agile don't say anything about adapting.

Brian (23:46)
Ha

Joshua Kerievsky (23:48)
So that's kind of implied, but it's not there. So it's a different lens on agility. If anything, I'd say the make people awesome principles are not meant to. It created some dislike, I'd say, from some people. It could have been called empower people, potentially, although a lot of people really love make people awesome. I don't know so much what I'd change there. I'd say we have a .org. So it's a modernagile.org is a website. There's a pretty large Slack community, which, know, four or 5,000 people on that. We don't certify anyone in modern agile, so there's no certifications, but it's something that is neutral in the sense that whether you practice Scrum or Kanban or Safe or whatever, these principles can influence you. And, you know, but again, this all came out of like, when I went to that open space conference in Prague, I had no idea I was going to talk about modern agile. You know, it was not like a predetermined thing. It was just like, my God, they're not talking about the modern ways we're doing stuff. So, and I always encourage people to, you know, keep pushing the limits and keep modernizing. I said to my own company the other day, our wonderful ways of working that we've been doing now for years that have evolved, they're probably antiquated as of today. You know, with generative AI, what would we do differently? Let's have a perspective on our own work as it needs to be modernized constantly. So the term modern in modern agile means always be modernizing, always be looking. Okay, I've had people say, well, Josh, some things don't need to be modernized. There's things that are just evergreen. They're classic. I'm like, absolutely. I'm not changing evolutionary design anytime soon. I find it to be quite useful in so many contexts. So yes, there's the evergreen stuff. And then there's the stuff where you can, indeed, discover a better way. The manifesto itself says, we are discovering better ways of working. Great. Keep that going. Keep modernizing and looking for easier, simpler, quick, easy grace. as the dictionary definition of Agile says, how can we work with quick, easy grace? That's always going to be improving, hopefully.

Brian (26:12)
Love that, yeah. And you're right, I mean, think there's some, to some people I think that there's, I guess at times an attitude of, you this is all new stuff or this is a brand new concept and something they don't really see the connection backwards in time to how these things are all built on other ideas that have been progressive over the years. So the idea of, yeah, this is, you know, we're, we're not saying that certain ideas are bad because now we're trying to modernize them. We're just saying we're trying to apply that same principle forward into kind of the context of today, which I don't see anyone should have a problem with that.

Joshua Kerievsky (26:48)
That's right. That's right. Well, and if you are experimenting and learning rapidly with your own process, which I highly encourage, chances are the way you work today will be different than it was yesterday. You will be exploring, like we use discovery trees today. We didn't use them before. Years ago, no one knew what a story map was. There wasn't such a thing as a story map. Now we have story maps. There's constant improvement happening. And you've got to be open-minded and willing to try new things and drop old stuff. We thought sprints and iterations and extreme programming was absolutely fundamentally part of the way to work. Then we started experimenting with dropping them and turned out, wow, this is pretty cool. We like this. It works pretty darn well for our purposes. That came through experimentation. some of our experiments were terrible, just terrible. It's not an experiment if you already know the outcome. keep pushing the limits of what can make you happier and more joyful at work in terms of producing great stuff.

Brian (27:46)
Awesome. That's great stuff. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on, Joshua. This is great stuff. just, you know, we'll put all the links to the books mentioned and everything else in our show notes for everybody. But as Joshua said, you can go to modernagile.org and find out more about this if you'd like to. You'll find information there about Joshua himself or his company again is Industrial Logic, Inc. And, you know, his book again, just to mention that, Joy of Agility. We were talking how some people get that title a little mixed up or whatever, but it's just the three words, joy of agility. So just look out for that book. I think you'll find it a rich resource for you. Joshua, thanks so much for coming on.

Joshua Kerievsky (28:25)
Thank you, Brian. Thanks to you. Thanks to Mountain Goat and the folks there. And I really appreciate chatting with you. It was really wonderful.

Ready to spark real change in your organization? In this episode, Brian Milner sits down with April K. Mills, founder of Engine for Change, to reveal how anyone can become a powerful change agent—without waiting for permission. Learn how to drive meaningful change, navigate resistance, and reignite Agile practices with strategies that actually work.

Overview

In this inspiring episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner talks with April K. Mills, CEO of Engine for Change and author of Everyone is a Change Agent, about what it truly means to lead change.

April explains how effective change agents focus on clearing obstacles rather than forcing compliance, and why fostering curiosity, empowerment, and collaboration is key to sustainable change.

From navigating corporate roadblocks to revitalizing Agile practices, April shares actionable insights and tactics to help you take control and make a lasting impact—whether you're in a small startup or a global enterprise.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

April K. Mills
Everyone is a Change Agent: A Guide to the Change Agent Essentials by April K. Mills
Change Tactics: 50 Ways Change Agents Boldly Escape the Status Quo by April K. Mills
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

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This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

April K. Mills is an engineer-turned-change-evangelist and author of Everyone is a Change Agent and Change Tactics, empowers individuals and organizations to thrive through change using her proven Change Agent Essentials. With a passion for turning ideas into action, April helps people drive meaningful change with the time, title, and budget they already have.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have April K. Mills with us. Welcome in April.

April K. Mills (00:11)
Thanks for having me.

Brian (00:13)
Very happy to have April with us. April is the founder and CEO of an organization called Engine for Change. That's engine-for-change.com. That's her website. She's also an author. There's a book that she put out called, Everyone is a Change Agent, a Guide to the Change Agent Essentials. And that's what we wanted to have her on to talk about today with a little bit about being a change agent. Now I shouldn't say from the outset, April is a request. We had a listener request for April to come on. And I always love that. I always try to push those people to the top of our list and get them on as soon as possible. And it was such an interesting topic. I thought this would be just a really great way to have a great topic to have early in 2025. So April, let's start with just trying to understand when we say change agent, how do you define that? What do you mean by change agent?

April K. Mills (01:09)
Yeah, a change agent is someone who takes action to bring about the change they want to see in the world. So rather than waiting for a boss or a corporate program or somebody from HR to come in and say, hey, let's improve this process, the change agent sees the need for a change and takes action. And the big thing I talk about in my books and my work is the difference between what typically happens when somebody sees a need for a change in an organization where they decide, I'm gonna go get a boss to go make everybody do my idea. I call that driving people. And I draw the contrast with that and driving change where you choose the change for yourself and you clear the obstacles for others to choose it too. And I love talking about that with Agile audiences especially because Agile is a change agent movement. of folks who want to drive change. I see a better way to create this product and I want to be part of it. And that's always what's drawn me into the agile space.

Brian (02:13)
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And it is a big change, right? To think about the dynamics of someone kind of sitting back and saying, yeah, I see something that needs to be done. I see something that should be a different way, but you know, who am I to say anything about this? Who am I to do anything about versus the person who actually takes action and does things. So that kind of leads to a question about change agents. What kind of skills or traits do you think are really helpful or beneficial to someone to be a better change agent.

April K. Mills (02:46)
Well, the key is that difference between driving people and driving change. It's not what degree do you have, it's not how long have you been in the industry, it's not are you a people person, are you more focused on the data or some of those factors that we usually like to talk about. It really is, are you willing to take the step yourself first and clear those obstacles and encourage and invite people to join you? Or do you want somebody to make them obey you? And that choice is really the key for anybody to be a change agent. Because so many times we've seen people who might be able to convince the boss, hey, our team should be agile. And what happens, right? It goes on for about three months. The team gets frustrated. The boss gets angry. And then everybody starts to have a reaction when you bring it up, right? I'm sure plenty of the listeners have gone into an organization. If you're passionate about agile and you go, hey, have you guys heard about agile? And they go, ooh. And they make like a face. That's because they've encountered somebody who is driving people. And so that's the big focus I always try and talk with people about is can you show up with that willingness to let people join you and understand what their obstacles are to doing it.

Brian (03:57)
What are some kind of warning signs or signals you'd look for to kind of recognize whether I'm actually approaching this from a driving people perspective versus driving the change?

April K. Mills (04:08)
So a lot of times the key is how are you thinking about or talking about in your own head about the people around you or even yourself? We have a tendency to drive ourselves as well. So you can hear it in the language, right? I'm frustrated because so-and-so won't listen. I wish I could get more attention. It's all this sort of vague or... putting the action onto someone else and then complain the action isn't happening fast enough. You can hear it in the language. And so when someone's driving change, you don't hear that. hear, you know, I'm working on, I'm doing, the next thing is my action is I'm going to go talk with this person. I want to understand. I'm going to be curious. And you get this agency, this power coming back into your body almost, and then taking taking the next step from there. And so it's almost easy. You can almost say, well, how far outside your body would you put the power to make this change happen is a useful question to ask people. And if they say, well, it's in the CEO of the company, it's in the industry, it's in my tech lead, but it's certainly not me, well, then you're not a change agent.

Brian (05:20)
So that brings up a good point because I think I can try to channel what the listeners might be thinking here. I know that in times I've been in organizations where, yeah, you have the ideal, you have the thing that you think is the best thing to do. But because the power dynamics in the organization, you don't really have the power to make that change and you depend a little bit on others that have the power to to help affect it. And so there is a sort of an aspect of, I don't really have the capability or the power to cause this change to happen. How can I still stay with that mindset of driving change versus driving people when I know I need someone else's help?

April K. Mills (06:03)
Right. So that's a great conversation. And I've started to call it phase one Agile versus phase two Agile. I'm old enough in this space where when I first joined, a lot of Agile was team-based. Somebody on the team or several people on the team said, yeah, I want better. And these are the things that we can do as a team to deliver better. And let's do them together. And then the problem was the teams could do it, but they couldn't scale it. And they were like, if only we could get the senior leaders to pay attention to us, that would solve all our problems. And then you get phase two agile, which was executives buying agile implementations and forcing it down on people. There is one right way and we will do exactly this and you must conform and no other versions are allowed. And then we got the fractures and all of the fights about all of the different aspects. And so we tried it both ways, right? We tried it with the team effort and then we tried it with this thou shalt effort. And I think the key to actually making Agile work across organizations and deeper into organizations is to keep that energy from the team-based Agile to say, we're choosing something better, but it's that piece of driving change. What are the obstacles for others to choose it to? We didn't do that step. We went from my team does it, now the boss should make everybody else do what my team does. And I think that's where we got off track. in really scaling Agile into something that was sustainable and brought that joy and commitment and everyday wanting to show up and be better across the organization. So that's what I would encourage folks to do is not try to cheat that step of getting your fellow teams and larger systems to join you by finding somebody with the power to make them be like you.

Brian (07:50)
That's fascinating. I know that in some of these changes I've been involved with as well, there can be things that happen that kind of find yourself stalled a little bit, right? The initiative or the changes you're trying to affect just doesn't feel like it's going where it needs to go. What advice do you have for people who feel like they're in that place where they feel like they're kind of stalled out? in the change.

April K. Mills (08:16)
Yeah, so a lot of the things I talk about in that book you mentioned everyone is a change agent are different tactics you can use to overcome that. One of the key things that I talk about is what I call a change buffer, which is how can you make the rules where you're at different than those rules across the organization? I mean, let's take a simple example. Let's say there's five software teams in a business. Very simple example, right? And one is doing some practices and they'd love for those practices to spread. but they're not spreading as fast as they would hope. One of the ways to protect your change is to say, on our team, we will behave this way, declare it, make it what I call a policy buffer. So when one of those other four teams says, well, why are you doing it that way? You can point to the piece of paper and say, we've agreed to behave this way. Now, if you'd love to join us, we'd love to share that with you, but this team behaves this way. So then it's not every developer having to defend in effect the practices, which can get exhausting. But then you can start to ask them, what's your policy on your team? How do you do this? And get curious. Not in a, I'm trying to lure them in and trap them into my way of behaving, but in a, really want to understand, do they have a different measure that they're being exposed to? How can we help maybe get that measure off of them? Do they have a boss who's got a different standard for what quality looks like? Well, should we have a corporate conversation around, quality across the five teams should be the same. We don't tend to have those because we want to skip the step of coming into that alignment together and just have a policy somehow drop from the stars that aligns with my values. yeah, policy buffers are really big to protect a change and help it spread and have those curious conversations at the edges. Think of it like system integration, right? You can't just dictate, you have to understand and merge.

Brian (10:11)
Let's say we put in place a policy buffer like that on our team and our whole team agrees to doing something and we think this is the right way of doing things. And someone higher in the organization, some manager or leader finds out about this and says, no, I don't want that to happen. We've been trying to affect the change, right? And not push the individual. But now we do have the individual who's saying, you shall not do this. How do you overcome that when you're the change engine?

April K. Mills (10:38)
Yeah, so a lot of times you have to understand what are the assumptions that that leader is making and again get curious, right? Because if we focus not on the method but on the outcome, we should be able to get alignment faster. So rather than going into a boss and saying, method A is my choice, method B is yours, you know, it's a cage match, two will enter, one will leave. You instead want to show up and say, Well, I think we both agree we want to deliver quality products on time that customers love at the lowest possible production costs. Are we aligned on that or not? And if they say yes, then you say, okay, now let's just understand what are you asking for? And from my perspective as a person who has to implement that, here's how I think that impacts our ability to deliver quality products that customers love at the lowest possible production costs. And these methods that I'm using are doing this and here's my data or evidence. And so you in effect want to shift it where it's not me looking at you, but as people are probably going to see on this podcast, it's us next to each other. So if we instead frame it as me and the leader looking at the issue together, because we want to win together, we're not in competition. So again, it's about seeking to understand, removing those obstacles so that we can be aligned together to go there together.

Brian (11:57)
I love the idea of backtracking a little bit and finding that common ground and going from that space. I think that's a great approach. I know I've had success with that in my career too, of being able to find, well, we agree on this, right? And if we agree on this, now we're just talking about the best way of getting from where we are to there. And then it's less personal, then it's less about the person, it's more about the best strategy. And we're a little bit less... personally invested that we think it's a you know a personal affront or challenge if it's if it's more about the idea So I agree. I think that's a that's a great kind of approach to doing that How about the differences in just the the context of this if I'm a change I know you know I've been in some small organizations. I've been in some medium large-sized organizations and You know I think anyone who's been in large organizations would say Well, yeah, that's nice and easy when it's in a startup, right? If I'm in a startup, then yeah, everyone's wearing a lot of different hats and it's really easy to make change, but you know, the institutional kind of inertia that can take place in larger organizations, how do you overcome that as a change agent?

April K. Mills (13:00)
Yeah, well, I can speak to that from deep experience because my background started as a civilian nuclear engineer for the US Navy in a hundred year old shipyard. And I started six weeks before September 11th. So I came into a nuclear shipyard, a hundred years old, very staid in the way they did things, optimized for the shipyard and the world changed.

Brian (13:03)
Ha ha ha ha.

April K. Mills (13:25)
And I watched as that organization struggled to deal with the rate of change that was being imposed upon them. And a lot of the things that I talk about in everyone is a change agent came out of that experience of understanding what tactics worked, what didn't, what philosophy worked, what didn't to be able to empower people to make changes happen. And we made amazing changes happen in the shipyard. And then I went on and did 10 years with Intel Corporation, right? The chip maker and taught these things globally and saw people do amazing things within the company. Now it's true, if you don't get the main rudder of the company, you're not gonna steer it. But there's a lot of change you can make in an organization from where you're at. And I think that's the powerful, powerful thing. And so these tactics work at scale. They work for an individual, right? If you stop talking to yourself like, you know what you need to do? You have to do this or so and so is gonna get mad at you and you instead say, What's our obstacle for getting up early and going to the gym? And how can I clear that? And how can I choose to do that every day all the way up to a team, all the way up to an organization? I've seen these things work all the way through that scale. So I've used it in community projects to deliver an accessible playground in three and a half years when everybody said it would take five or 10. And these tactics have also been proven, although they weren't listed this way, in historical successes. If you think about when Admiral Rickover founded the nuclear Navy back in 1950, they went from approval to use nuclear power to USS Nautilus underway in five years. We can't deliver anything in five years anymore because we constantly are looking for who's going to make people, how are we going to force them? Can we keep them forced to do it? And with employee turnover, with system turnover, with the rate of change, I would argue this era of driving people has to end because it wasn't ever really effective, but it's getting less and less effective. And that's the name of my second book, which is Change Tactics, which is both you should change tactics and here are some change tactics to help people accelerate their results.

Brian (15:36)
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it gets really deep really quickly here too, because you start to think about even the way we manage our projects and the fact that a lot of more traditional project management is sort of, when we talk about this change agent approach, is sort of managing the people and trying to push and drive the people towards deadlines, some, not even an outcome, but a timeline. versus trying to affect the outcomes that we're trying to achieve as an end result instead. So it really is interconnected, isn't it, through even the way we set up our projects?

April K. Mills (16:13)
Yes, it totally is. And I have that in the book and in the classes I teach is where is the force? So I'm an engineer by training, right? So I'm constantly looking and thinking about where's the force in the system if it was a pump or a reactor plant or whatever. And you can see it to your point with the program management is your, are you spending most of your time trying to push people to do something? Or are you moving the form, fit and function of whatever the product is? If that's delivering code and integrating code, if that's a physical product, are you clearing the obstacle so that product moves forward faster? And you hear this and see this in stories of what's going on at SpaceX, right? When they're confronting something about, can't get a part for six months or I can't get a part for a year and it's gonna cost me $50,000, they're saying. Isn't it just sheet metal? How could we make that in two weeks with what we've got? Because they're not talking about you should be able to shrink that timeline. What are you doing? Why aren't you talking to the vendor enough? aren't you pushing on the vendor hard enough? They're saying, what is the physical thing we need and how fast can we get it? And it's allowing them to shrink product costs. It's allowing them to shrink durations. It's what Rickover did in the 50s. It's what Andy Grove did with Intel back when it was Intel delivers in the 80s and 90s. Focus on the product, focus on the physics, focus on the engineering, the mechanics to support the engineering, the operations to support the mechanics, and you'll deliver products faster. And at the heart of all of that is change agents because they're not trying to get somebody to obey. They want to get something amazing done.

Brian (17:50)
One of the things I found kind of in when I've worked with organizations and talked with organizations about kind of moving from point A to point B is the fact that you kind of need help. kind of need, know, a lot of times people will try to make these changes all on their own and they sort of take the weight of the world on their shoulders. I can't figure out why it's not working. How do you kind of co-opt others into your strategy?

April K. Mills (18:14)
Yeah, well, the best way is to share with them what you've learned about being a change agent. I've had countless folks who, know, one person will read my book or come to a class and they'll go back and try it and people will get curious because you show up differently. So a simple example that I give in the book is rather than sending a mandatory meeting, which we're all guilty of, right, we get an assignment. and we go into the global outlook calendar and we pick people and we make them mandatory and we order them to come to our meeting. We say, Brian gave me this assignment. You have to come. Brian said this is really important. Come to my meeting or else. And we do that. That's the default. And I encourage folks from a driving change perspective to instead, maybe Brian, you gave me that assignment, but my meeting notice would say, I've been asked by Brian to lead this. I'm excited to do that. Here's why I've chosen this as the thing I'm going to focus on. I've marked you all optional. I think you have the skills and capabilities that would be amazing on this team. And if you're as passionate as I am, I'd love you to partner with me. We're going to start meeting on Tuesday. If you're not the right one, feel free to tell me. But I'm moving forward on Tuesday with whoever's there. And I'm really grateful that I get to work in an organization with you. Now. Who's gonna come to, which meeting are you gonna come to? The April says Brian's gonna be mad at you if you don't, or the one where April's gonna go off and do something amazing, I don't wanna miss out. And anybody can do that because everybody send in meeting notices out to people. So the simplest actions have the most powerful results.

Brian (19:31)
Ha It really is a cultural change too, right? mean, that's a very different cultural kind of approach to it to say, hey, it's optional, but, you know, get on board with this idea. If this is something that you're excited about, I want you to be a part of this versus, hey, you've got to, that's your job. you know, I've been given the authority to, to demand that you be here and, and, and, you know, really want. So, so how do you. You know culture changes is obviously one of the hardest things to do in an organization. How do you start to if you're a change agent? How do you start to? Change the culture in the organization to be more in line with that

April K. Mills (20:25)
So my focus is always on the culture starts with one. So people will treat you the way you show up. And so show up as a change agent and the world will bend around you in reaction to it. Now I do have a chapter in the book where I talk about my son who's got special needs and he took a long time for him to walk. He had to walk with forearm crutches. And the first time we were really out in public, he was walking with his forearm crutches. And you could tell that people were really confused and concerned, right? It's different. He's a small child. He looks very fragile. And you had all these reactions from people about, well, you know, where's his mother? Cause I was watching him from a little ways away. I always joke, no one ever asked where's his father if a child is wandering off. But you know, they're watching him and you could tell there were people that wanted to either pick him up and do it for him. Take him someplace because he looks so fragile, let me help you. Or they were mad that he was off on his own and I wasn't hovering. And I use that story for the same thing here. Because when you go off and you say, let's make this optional, I'm passionate about it, I'm committed, and even if I'm alone in this room, I'm going to move this forward, people are going to look at you funny. Like my son with his forearm crutches because they're used to somebody walking off strong, demanding, creating space. But it doesn't mean that that's necessarily the best way to do it. And so you have to be comfortable being different. And I use the concept of change buffers to help people with that. A personal buffer might be like Richard Feynman, the noted physicist. I don't care what other people think. I'm going to be me, their concerns to the wind. A friendship buffer. I'm going to go off and do this. when somebody goes, April's crazy. I call my friend Brian and you go, you're not crazy. You're doing the right thing. Keep it up. Let's go for coffee, let's go for the beer, whatever. A leadership buffer, maybe you're my boss and you believe in this, you've seen it. I go off and do it, people give me a hard time. I go, hey, take it up with Brian, my boss. We do things this way in his group. Or back to that policy buffer. In my group, we drive change, not people. So when somebody shows up differently, folks go, you know, why are you doing that? it's just the way we work. And that's what I've built in organizations over the years. The people that were in The groups with me that were doing this, depending on how comfortable and how strong they felt, could either say, I'm different, live with it. Or they could say, we're different. Or the policy is different. Whatever they needed to feel strong enough to show up differently. Because when you show up differently, you get amazing results.

Brian (22:58)
Yeah. That's so, that's so awesome. I completely agree. What if people are listening to this and hearing all this and getting excited about it and thinking, yeah, this is, this sounds like something I want to participate in. is, it sounds like something I want to start to do. if someone feels inspired by this conversation and wants to be, become more of a change agent, uh, but they really just don't know where to start. What are some practical things that you would give them to say, here's, here's a good way to start to, to move down this path.

April K. Mills (23:27)
Yeah, well, the simplest one is that's why you write books, right? So my book is available. I self-published it on purpose to make it very affordable. So it's, think, $9.99. Everyone is a change agent. It's $14.99 for change tactics because I accidentally wrote a longer book than I intended. sorry. When I got the first copy, I'm like, oh, that's more than I thought it was. OK. But so both of those. So for, you know, the price of a meal.

Brian (23:44)
You

April K. Mills (23:54)
for one person these days with inflation, right? You can get two books that help you not only have the basis, but have some just simple tactics, almost like a recipe book you can use. And then later this spring, I'm rolling out with my Engine for Change Company, this Change Agent Essentials class, which is based on that content. I've been teaching it now for 10 years in corporations. As we were talking before we started, right, I'm a recovering hider in corporations, I guess. Now I'm coming out into the world. And so it's going to be available for folks if they want to take the class to get that more immersive experience. So I'm really excited to bring it to the world because it works. And I'm especially passionate about agile people using it because there's too much conversation around agile dying and we need better products delivered faster that customers love at the lowest possible costs. And I don't know a better way to get there. So we got to reclaim agile from the driving people.

Brian (24:47)
Yeah, I completely agree. you know, anyone who's been involved in Agile in any significant, you know, way I'm sure would probably agree that it's not that the core concepts in any way are, are less, valid or, or, or no longer practical or anything like that. It's just people have seen so much bad versions of things that now that that definition has been marred a little bit, I would say. And so now we, we, we have to kind of take Like you said, take back control of that a little bit and say, now here's what it really is, and here's why we do things this way. And I like your approach there. Find the common ground and say, here's, you know, we both believe in this. Well, what's the best way of doing that? You know, here's what we think.

April K. Mills (25:28)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's going to be a really exciting time as we go into 2025. There's so much change happening, but so much of it is at that default of driving people. So there's a huge opportunity to show up differently, to create a ripple. That one person can create that ripple. You three people can support each other while they try these new things. By the time you get to five, you almost have critical mass, right? At least two of you will always be online at any one time to support each other. And you can grow it from there. And I've seen great, great things happen. And it really is an unleashing of energy. If people can remember the first feeling they had when they found Agile and it was like, yeah, that feels more like what a professional does. And that excitement and that energy, you can get back to that and you can get back to that by driving change.

Brian (26:24)
Love it, love it, this is awesome. Well, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. We're gonna put links to everything in our show notes for everyone so you can get to April's company and find out more about her classes and also find out more about her books there as well. So April, thank you so much for coming on.

April K. Mills (26:40)
Thanks for having me. It was an honor to be recommended.

Brian (26:43)
Well, and our honor to have you on as well. So thank you for our listeners and recommending people and thank you April for making the time for us.

Curious about the future of Agile in 2025? Join Brian and Lance Dacy as they dive into the rise of AI, hyper-personalization, and how teams can balance innovation with customer focus. Plus, discover actionable insights to navigate a rapidly evolving landscape—don’t miss this forward-looking discussion!

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Lance set their sights on 2025, exploring how AI is transforming Agile practices and reshaping customer engagement.

They discuss the shift from output to outcome metrics, the expansion of Agile beyond IT, and the critical role of leadership agility. With practical takeaways on fostering continuous learning and delivering real value, this episode equips teams and leaders to stay ahead in a fast-changing world.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Lance Dacy
Accurate Agile Planning
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Happy New Year's Agile Mentors. We are back and a very happy New Year's to everyone who's listening. Welcome back for another episode and another new year of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have our friend of the show for our annual kind of tradition now. We have Mr. Lance Dacey back with us. Welcome in, Lance.

Lance Dacy (00:23)
Thank you, Brian. Happy New Year to all of y'all. Happy to be setting this tradition. think it's two times now, so we'll just call it a tradition, but I love it. Thank you for having me.

Brian (00:32)
Very glad to have you here. The tradition we're referring to is that we like to take the first episode of the new year and just take a pause and kind of look ahead a little bit. What do we see coming up? What do we think this new year is going to be like? Obviously, it's a year of change. Here in the US, we'll have a new president that comes in. I'm not going to get into whether you like that or not, but it's new. It's going to be a change. There's going to be differences that take place. And I know there's a lot of differences and changes going on just in the way businesses operate and how things are run and lots of new technologies, lots of new trends. So we just thought we'd take a pause and kind of scan the horizon and maybe give you our take at least on what we're hearing and what we're seeing. And you can see if you agree with these or not. We'd love to hear from you in our discussion forum on the Agile Mentors Community afterwards if you have other thoughts or opinions on this. let's get into it. Let's start to talk about this. So Lance, I guess I'll start. I'll just turn it over to you and ask you that generalized question. Give me one point or one thing that you've been reading or seeing recently that you think is going to be a really important thing for us to kind of be prepared for or look out for here in 2025.

Lance Dacy (01:44)
Great question, Brian. There's so many things out there, and I thought we could start by looking back a little bit. if we're okay with that, just let's summarize, you what did we see happen in 2024? You mentioned, you know, 2025 is a year of change, absolutely, but 2024 was definitely a different kind of year as far as my experience is concerned and seeing a lot of industry trends that are just popping up out of nowhere. Now we are fans of agility, which means we embrace quick, efficient changes, but there's things going on in 2024 I never predicted

Brian (01:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Lance Dacy (02:19)
fast. And so I think we've got to reshape the way that we're thinking about these things. I think the topic of mind, one of the biggest shifts that I saw in 2024 that I think will continue in 2025 is AI. So that artificial intelligence is a big word that we keep lumping into a lot of things. And I just wanted to take a pause a little bit and say, I know everybody's got a little bit different experience about AI, but in particular, as it relates to product development and agile delivery, which is what this show is basically focused on, I thought we could look at some insights of what happened in 2024 with that. And so I think I call us babies at it right now. And I know that may be a bad term, but I have a lot of experience with AI and machine learning and things like that. But as far as the use of it, I feel like we're all a little bit more of babies on how to use it in the day-to-day work that we're trying to accomplish. And I think that comes with learning something. I embrace that. I don't mean that as a downplay, by the way, but that we're all babies. I'm just saying we're less mature about it. We're experimenting with a lot of things. And I don't think that some of the AI is all good. I I embrace it as a thing that's going to help us later on, but... I thought we could just share our experiences of how we've seen this thing manifest itself. I think tools like AI driven, I'm going to use the bad word JIRA, but in place of that, just use any product backlog management tool that you see. And I've seen a lot of organizations not just talk the game of, we use AI for our backlog management, but I'm talking about backlog prioritization, sprint planning capacity. And I believe what's happening is it frees teams up to do more of the... value driven work that we're going to see a lot more of in 2025. So what I mean by that is when we got automated testing and development, if you remember those days, it freed the developers up or the testers, should say, from doing less of the does this thing work to more of how does it feel using it as a human being, you know, automating that. So I've seen things like JIRA, with AI with JIRA and GitHub co-pilots, you know, reshaping the value creation in the teams and eliminating the need of having to do very low level tasks. So what is your thoughts on that and do you have any experiences of that as well?

Brian (04:36)
Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of things I've found that just kind of some stats I found from some different places. you know, listeners know I'm kind of like a data geek here. want to know where the data comes from and want to make sure it's a, yeah. Yeah. You want to make sure it's a solid source and it's not some questionable, you know, sketchy kind of, well, I asked 10 of my friends and here's the answer, you Right, right. Exactly.

Lance Dacy (04:48)
Good hand. I love that. or a FBI.

Brian (05:02)
But so there's a couple of things that came back. One was, I think Forrester is probably a pretty good source of information. They have some pretty good rigor to their process. And they have a thing that they put out every year. This one's just called the Developer Survey. And this is the one that they put out for 2024 that I'm quoting here. But a couple of stats from that that I found interesting. One was, 49 % of developers are expecting to use or are already using general AI assistance in their coding phase of software development, which, you know, maybe higher than most people might think. But it doesn't surprise me too much. I think that's probably kind of what I'm used to it. Understand saying, you know, an assistant co-pilot, that kind of thing. They're not saying 49 % have been replaced. They're saying 49 % are being assisted. by that and that seems about right. Maybe again, maybe a little higher than some might expect, but that seems like not too big of a shocker.

Lance Dacy (06:04)
Well, the animation too. So when you talk about assistance versus letting it run it, I saw a gentleman on LinkedIn, which is also a good. I wish we could interact more with our users on this call, because I'd love to hear their perspective. But I heard somebody say, let AI write my code. No, thank you. Code is like poetry. It has to be refined over time. It has humanistic qualities. And I was like, man, that's a really good point. But when I try to show my kids how to create a Ruby on Rails app to do an e-commerce site and I type it into chat GPT or whatever tool you use, I was amazed at how quickly it was able to put together. mean, you got to still know the file structures and things like that. But I don't know that developers are just going to say, I was going to write the whole thing. think they're, I think it's saving us keystrokes. I think we talked about that last time as well, but that's an interesting, interesting take.

Brian (06:50)
Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, I thought that was interesting. There was another, you know, I'm kind of, I'll move around between these two sources basically, but there's another source that I saw where there was a Harvard Business Review article. posted this on LinkedIn a while back, but it was a kind of the source of it was about a survey that they did to try to determine the impact on the job market. And one of the things they did was now their data was from July, 2021 to July, 2023. So this is a little bit older data, right? The survey was trying to say in analyzing the job postings on freelancer job sites specifically, and they tried to identify ones that might be affected by the advent of chat GPT, because that's the period where chat GPT really started to come onto the scene and started to become prevalent. And what they found was about a 21 % decrease in the weekly number of posts and what they call automation prone.

Lance Dacy (07:35)
Yeah.

Brian (07:47)
jobs compared to manually intensive jobs. They said riding jobs were affected the most 30.37 % decrease, followed up by software app and web development 20.62 % decrease and engineering 10.42 % decrease. But the interesting kind of thing is they found it kind of towards the end of that there was some increases and their kind of conclusion was that there was actually an increase in demand of the kinds of work that required human judgment and decision-making. And so that kind of ties back into what you were saying about let AI write my code whole, completely no, there's still a requirement for that human judgment and decision-making. I think this is why I'm not afraid of it, right? This is kind of, I don't want to make this an AI show, it's about the future in 2025, but when we had a...

Lance Dacy (08:17)
All right. Right.

Brian (08:40)
When we've had AI shows, that's one of the things I've said to the audience here is that I'm not so afraid of AI being sort of the doom and gloom of it's going to destroy profession or destroy. It's going to change it. But I don't think that's any different than any other. A great kind of analogy I make is when we started to have testing automation. It didn't do away with testers. This is just another tool that's going to be in our tool belt.

Lance Dacy (08:51)
Guy net.

Brian (09:05)
And I think our challenge is not to, you know, we're agilist, not to resist change, but to try to adapt, try to find ways that we can align and incorporate and get the most out of it. So, yeah.

Lance Dacy (09:17)
I think the most part of that though is, Brian, too, what most people fear. And I agree with you, we won't make it an AI show. just, we got a couple of points to make on this. But for the first time ever in human history, we now have something that might be more intelligent than us. And that is scary because there's some AI neural network engines that people can't explain how it's working anymore. They put it in place. And then it's like, we're not quite sure how it's doing all of this. And that's a scary thing, obviously, that can get out of control. We've never really had to face that. So we do have to be aware of that, but you know, let's go back and peel it back. Hey, we're, trying to plan a backlog with AI and we're trying to write a few Ruby on Rails code. I'm not letting it run my life yet. And one day it may already be doing that. I just don't even know it. I don't know. We won't get into that debate, but I think the thing is that we need to take pause of in the agile industry. is we embrace new technology as long as it's helping us deliver faster to our customers and save us time and efficiency. You know, I tell teams all the time, Agile is about delivering the highest business value items as early as possible with the least amount of cost friction, know, whatever word you want to use for that. Well, AI might help us do that, but I want to caution that. I think you and I were just talking about this. I wanted you to bring up that news story element that we were talking about. where people are just pushing content out there and kind of desensitizing us to is that important information or not? And I think AI needs to tag onto that. So I didn't know if you could share that real quick and then I want to share some metrics that I've seen some teams capture. There's a lot of teams now adopting these things called Dora metrics, which was created by a DevOps engineering group. And it's amazing to me now that we have real data to see, well, we have embraced AI.

Brian (10:45)
Sure.

Lance Dacy (10:59)
does do some things or not, I'd like to balance the good with the bad on that. But can you go over that new stuff that you were sharing with me?

Brian (11:05)
Yeah, no, it's just a conversation I've been having recently with people, they're friends of mine and kind of, you're probably feeling the same way about this in certain places, but the breaking news alerts that you get on your phone, you get those things all the time and I've had friends and I have discussions about maybe it's time to just turn them off. There's just so many breaking news alerts and that's kind of the issue, right? Is that there are so many that are now classified as

Lance Dacy (11:23)
Yeah.

Brian (11:31)
breaking news that you kind of look at that and say, this isn't really breaking news. You know, like if something really major happens, yeah, I want to know about that. I'd like to get an alert about something that's truly breaking news. the, you know, have major news sources, apps on my phone and get those breaking news alerts all the time. And some of them are just things that are minor, minor news that I would be much better served seeing in a summary and like a daily summary or even a weekly summary on some of the things. Right.

Lance Dacy (11:50)
Yeah. Or if at all, like you don't care about the sub undersecretary of Parks and Lighting in Minnetoca. You know, I don't know. It's just like, thank you for that information. But I totally agree that I feel like we're getting desensitized to a lot of these words, buzzwords, if you will. And we as humans are going to have to learn in this environment. And I'm trying to teach this with my kids as well, because they're the ones suffering the most from it.

Brian (12:04)
Right. Yeah.

Lance Dacy (12:22)
It's just inane information out there and you're filling your brains with the main things. So AI is great because it's allowing people to deliver more content, but is that content of substance or they just trying to market to you and get you, I forget the word you use for it, but, you know, keep you on a leash. Is that what you said? A small.

Brian (12:42)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's kind of what we were saying about this is that I think that the kind of conclusion that led me to is that I and I've seen this trend, I think in other areas as well, as I sort of feel like maybe with bigger companies, more than others in today's world, there seems to be a shift a little bit that, you know, for example, that that breaking news thing, it's not it's not something that benefits the customer, right? As the customer, I don't think there's a customer out there that says, I really love all these minor news stories appearing in my breaking newsfeed. But what it benefits is the company. It benefits the source because it keeps you engaged. It keeps you coming back and it keeps that ping to keep you engaged. And that's what they're trying to promote. That's good for the... Yeah, that's good for the company, but it's not good for the customer. I think that there may be, we may see some real kind of shifts I think happen in...

Lance Dacy (13:21)
Or me, it keeps me frustrated and I leave them.

Brian (13:34)
Some of those big companies maybe have moved too far in that way to favor their company's interest over the customer. And that leaves a door of opportunity, I think, for smaller companies to say, well, we're going to be all in on just what's best for the customer. And I think customers will appreciate that and will reward that because it's annoying otherwise.

Lance Dacy (13:54)
That's what I want to focus on because the last part of this AI conversation I want to have is I like a lot of what Gary Hamill, he's a management professor at a lot of different schools recently. He visits a lot of companies as well, but I really like the way he delivers his content and how he's more innovative and thought. I mean, I tell people all the time that management and leadership has not seen any innovation in 150 years. It's about time. that we start learning how to create cultures for human beings that are bringing gifts and talents every day to make things better for our customers. And Gary Hamill is a really good source if you're interested in those kinds of things. And so he emphasizes how AI has reshaped value creation by eliminating those low-level tasks that I think we all can embrace and are allowing agile teams to achieve unprecedented efficiency. Now... We are babies immature with this technology. So maybe these news organizations and the ones that we're going to kind of say, you're not doing a good job at it. It's not because they're bad. It's just we're learning how to use a new tool and hopefully customer feedback will change that. But I wanted to hit on these Dora metrics. Dora metrics are, I think they were created by DevOps research and assessment. That's what they kind of stand for. And there's four major categories. that Dora metrics measure as it relates to more of an engineering benchmark. Like how well are we, if you're an agile software development product company, Dora metrics are really good for you to look at. know, metrics can be misused, so be careful, but they're measuring outcomes. You know, what is our deployment frequency, which could be an output metric, because who knows if you're releasing the right things, but let's not get into that conversation. deployment frequency, lead time for changes, the change failure rate of your changes, and the meantime to recovery of those changes. I think those are really four good performance benchmarks. And they're starting to surface a lot in organizations that I work with. So you kind of use tools like Jellyfish or something to overlay over Jira. And all these tools are great, but these teams are using AI. And I found that we finally get some real data that says, how well is AI affecting those core metrics if you were measuring performance benchmarks of the software that you're delivering. And so this report that was created by the 2024 Accelerate State of DevOps report, they categorize organizations and performance clusters like elite, high, medium, and low. And based on their performance across these metrics that I just mentioned earlier, they're evaluating and guiding their software delivery practices. And so the impact of AI adoption was really cool to see on the DevOps Launchpad was a site that I saw this on, that the integration of AI into the development processes, as we were just talking about, has mixed effects on those door metrics. Can you believe that? So a 25 % increase in AI adoption correlated with a one and a half percent decrease in team throughput and a 72 % decrease in the stability of the product. Now these suggest that while AI, you know, offers productivity benefits maybe for the individuals or the teams, it has a, you know, it's introducing complexities that are affecting the software delivery performance. So I want our audience to pay attention to that.

Brian (16:59)
Wow. Wow.

Lance Dacy (17:21)
and start using some of these maybe to push back on managers and leaders that are just embracing this new tool and say, let's just push this on the teams. So that's the impact of AI adoption. And then if you look at platform engineering, so if you look at the implementation of an internal developer platforms, you know, that are helping developers deploy code faster, the adoption of AI led to an 8 % increase in individual productivity. and a 10 % increase at the team level. Now that's fantastic. But these gains were accompanied by an 8 % decrease in change throughput. So while the teams may be able to make changes, what I interpret that to mean is the customer is not seeing the changes. There's an 8 % decrease in the throughput all the way as a cycle time, if you will, all the way to the customer and a 14 % decrease in the stability of the product. So that indicates trade-offs. that we all need to be aware of that AI might be helping us performance wise, but it's not helping the customer a whole lot if we're destabilizing the platform. So I haven't dug into those metrics a lot, but I wanted to share that with the audience because if you do find yourself in a position where people are pushing this, you can try to go reference those and maybe give them some, I always call it pros and cons, right? There's no really right or wrong when you're an agile team trying to make a decision. You got to look at the pros and the cons and

Brian (18:23)
Yeah.

Lance Dacy (18:40)
We might accept a pro, multiple pros that come with some cons, but we all look at each other and say, that's the better decision for our customer. And we live with those cons, whatever they may be. So I wanted to talk about that because it centers on what you were just thinking with the news organization. just push, we got more productive at pushing content, but was it the right content or is it destabilizing what people are using? And you just have to be careful of that.

Brian (18:57)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think those are excellent points. I think that's one of the things I see kind of for 2025 as well is that we're still so much in the empathy of how AI really plays into how a team operates and how development works that I don't think we can really say ultimately what's the right way or wrong way to do anything yet. I think it's good for teams to experiment. I don't think you should be afraid of experimenting and trying things. But it all comes back to the basic principle we say over and over as Agilist, inspect and adapt on it. Try something and identify what works about it and what doesn't work. And if that means that, we're using it too much and it's causing too much errors, we'll back off, find the right point, and move forward with that.

Lance Dacy (19:41)
Yeah. Or where companies are using it bad. Like I have a story that we won't get into here where a CEO or an executive of the company was mandating that they use AI to do something not so good for the customers. And you want to be able to push on that as well. So I'm sorry to interrupt you on that, but I was just like, man, that's something.

Brian (20:07)
Right. No.

Lance Dacy (20:11)
Sometimes, like we want to self-organize around the experimentation. We don't want it pushed in like management saying, need to use this because I want you more productive and managers be careful of doing that. Make sure you understand the pros and cons as much as you can before you dictate.

Brian (20:26)
Yeah. Something else you kind of said triggered something to me. I know the, I think that, well, not in a bad way, but it just, you know, the metrics I think that you mentioned were really good metrics. I liked the idea of kind of measuring, you know, things like, you know, the failure, the bug rate, you know, like how many defects and those kinds of things I think are good metrics. But they kind of,

Lance Dacy (20:31)
What? Okay.

Brian (20:49)
point out a certain difference that I think that's out there that I think the business community is wrestling with. And I hear these questions all the times in class, so I know it's prevalent out there. But we talk about building high performing teams. And just the difference between that word performing and productivity. There's sometimes I think confusion or false equivalency. between those two, that performance equals productivity. And I think a lot of the metrics sometimes we see that get measured or that we try to measure even, kind of expose that, as that's what's really the issue here, is that we're really trying to make that false equivalency between the two. It's not saying that performance has nothing to do with it, but

Lance Dacy (21:15)
Right.

Brian (21:32)
You know, this is the simplicity, the art of maximizing the amount of work not done is essential. You know, I'd rather have low productivity, but what we produce is high performing, is highly valuable, is something that matters, right? And I think that's kind of those kinds of statistics like you were bringing up, you know, what is our failure rate of things we put out there?

Lance Dacy (21:44)
Yeah.

Brian (21:54)
That is, I think, a performance metric to say, the old phrase, slow down to go faster. Right, right. Maybe the reason that our failure rate goes up and we're having problems with this is that we're trying to go too fast. And if we could back off, it ultimately makes you go faster if you have less bugs that you then have to go back and fix.

Lance Dacy (22:00)
Yeah, make hate, totally. Yeah.

Brian (22:19)
So it may be counterintuitive to certain organizations. Let's push them. Let's try to get everyone to go faster. But I think these new kind of metrics that you mentioned that we're trying to measure more and more, I think are starting to open people's eyes a little bit to the difference between those two words.

Lance Dacy (22:22)
I mean Well, in like the CrowdStrike situation, you know, that took down a lot of the airline systems, you know, I'm not saying they make, they didn't do a good job deploying and everything. All of us are victim of that kind of thing. But, know, to get us back on track a little bit, because you asked me the question, then I felt like I got us off on a tangent. know, 2024, obviously the rise of AI integration into

Brian (22:48)
Sure.

Lance Dacy (22:54)
the workflows that we experienced with Agile. And I just wanted to highlight, yeah, those are some great things, experiment with it. We're in our infancy. So there are a lot of things to discover that may not be so good. So start trying to put metrics in place. And I thought the Dora metrics, you know, as I've started discovering those, I'm a data guy and I'm like, yeah, as long as those are being tracked correctly, I think that's a good benchmark to kind of look at, hey, we're making a lot of changes in our software, but it's crashing the system. So change is good, crashing is bad. there's pros and cons, so we have to delegate that or figure that out. Now, the other one that you just mentioned, I thought I saw a great shift in 2024 from output related metrics to outcome oriented metrics. So the Scrum Alliance has a report, which we're all probably familiar with, especially you and I being certified Scrum trainers with, and we get a lot of data from them. But teams moved away from feature counts to measuring outcomes like

Brian (23:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lance Dacy (23:49)
customer satisfaction, user retention. You we teach this in our advanced certified Scrum Master workshops, the difference between output versus outcome metrics. And we've been doing that for five years. And I think it's really starting to take hold that management and leadership and maybe even teams are measuring the wrong thing. And I really saw the needle move in 2024 that people's eyes are opening that let's measure the outcomes of what we're doing. Sometimes that sacrifices individual productivity and performance for a greater outcome achieved at the organization or customer level. And we've been trying to articulate that for many years. And so I've seen a shift in that. And then also the rise of Agile beyond what I would generalize as IT. So Agile Alliance produced some information that I thought was interesting that Agile has expanded into health care or sectors like health care. education, human resources, HR, and those are typically what we would see the laggards, you know, back in the day, banking and healthcare and all those were the last people to adopt this progressive planning approach because of the way that they budget and finance and rightfully so. But those agile principles have been proven out far beyond software unpredictable type work and is going more into, you know, the different types of work environments and I think onto that is how it's getting involved more in leadership. So I don't know about you, but I've also seen people focusing more on building a culture of, I would like to call it leadership agility. So John Maxwell, you know, is a vocal person in the industry about leadership. And he underscored this idea that agile leadership. in driving transformation across non-technical domains. So not just a digital transformation, but non-technical domains is really taking hold in this idea of empowering cross-functional teams. You we've been saying this in technology for years, that the siloed development method is not good. Well, organizations are starting to see that not only in the tech sector, but why don't we put a marketing cross-functional team together with this other team? And that's what they talked about in 86. you know, in the new, new product development game. And I think I started to see the needle move a little bit more with leaders being more fascinated about leadership agility and driving culture change to meet the demands of cross-functional teams. And it could just be a by-product that technology has gotten easier to make these and focus on these things now, but psychological safety, know, sustainability and agile with, people having real goals and integrating.

Brian (25:59)
You

Lance Dacy (26:23)
What you see now is a lot of these eco-conscious practices coming in to product development, like the environmental, social, government's commitments as well, are making their way in there. So I want to just reflect on 2024. I don't know what you think. I'd love to interact with the audience too, but those are kind of the main things that I saw. And that will lead us into a good discussion of how we see that helping us in 2025. So what do you think about those?

Brian (26:49)
I One of the things I think that kind of stood out to me from what you talked about was the concept of how that plays in leadership. And I think you're absolutely right. think that is, I am hearing more of that in classes, people talking about that when they ask questions. You know, we've talked about for years that the fact that there can be sort of I don't know a better word to say but a glass ceiling sometimes in the organization for agile and how it spreads across and that leaders are often You know overlooked as far as getting trained in this kind of stuff and understanding it and I do see a rise in leaders trying to understand a little bit more about how can we You know incorporate this or even better, you know, how do we support? and nurture and foster this culture in our organization. So I think you're absolutely right. I think that is sort of a hidden or kind of a cheat code, if you will, for organizations to try to be more successful with the stuff we talk about is if you can have, it's not a top-down approach, but if you don't have the top on board, then they can really start to become a hindrance or a roadblock to the teams actually being successful with it. And so I agree. think that, you know, I'm hopeful that that shift is occurring. I'm seeing signs of that, you know, it's kind of always a little bit of a back and forth, you know, is it moving in that direction? Then I start to hear people say, no, we're having trouble. And the anecdotal little stories you hear makes you kind of not sure what the prevalence is, you know?

Lance Dacy (27:54)
Yeah Lose hope. You lose hope. I think, you know, the big takeaway for me for this as we talk about 2025 is it's going to be increasingly difficult and it has been increasingly difficult for any one individual company, product, service, whatever you want to call it, to differentiate yourself from other people. I've been telling my kids this forever.

Brian (28:18)
Right, right, exactly.

Lance Dacy (28:38)
that I feel I've seen a big shift from when I was back in early 90s, know, writing spreadsheets for people, they thought it was just unbelievable the work that I was doing because not everybody could do that. Well, everybody can do that now. So what I mean about differentiating yourself is, you know, AI is one of those things that you have to start prioritizing AI literacy because we've just talked about how immature we might be in some cases with this. But if we can ensure that our team members understand how to work effectively with those AI powered tools and letting AI be an active team participant, then I think we're going to start seeing even a greater problem with being able to differentiate yourself. So the main point I want to make for 2025 that I believe is going to be a real big focus is a is a hyper personalization of customer products. So there's a lot of companies out there that are really good. You just mentioned it with the news, right? Hey, I'm building your content, I'm keeping you engaged, but am I really serving you? Am I giving you your needs? And maybe it's okay if news organizations do that if you have a way to filter it and customize it. But really what I'm talking about is, and I'll go back to what Gary Hamill says about this. He says, the markets are crowded. And when you have the rise of AI and tools like Trello, Monday, and things like that, those are project management tools, right? Used to, you could be a better product company just if you would manage your work better. You know, you were using Scrum or Agile, you had an edge on everybody else. You could deploy faster and that was your secret sauce, right? But now that most people can do that now, what's your next up level in game? And he thinks it's going to be this hyper personalized customer solution and engagement.

Brian (30:06)
Right.

Lance Dacy (30:23)
where we need to invest in more customer discovery processes. You know how hard that is in teaching tech teams to do that? All we focus on is building the features, but how about we get better at customer discovery and really understand the tools that provide deep insights into their behavior so we can recognize that? know, several companies that I think are on the forefront of that, for those of you who are like, yeah, I'm concerned about that too. Where can we get better at that? I mean, go look at Amazon.

Brian (30:30)
Yeah.

Lance Dacy (30:51)
You know, Amazon uses highly sophisticated algorithms to analyze customer behavior, which enables them to produce product recommendations and help you buy things you didn't even know. You remember when we would teach like Kano analysis in a product owner class and they had six categories of features and one of those feature categories was an exciter or delighter feature. You know, the key to being a good differentiator is providing product and features that people didn't even know they needed. That's why customers are not always right, you know, on what they need. They're thinking about their reactive sense. And so how can we get better at predicting their behavior even more than they can and use AI and machine learning that allow for real-time adjustments? Because that used to take forever. You you think about Benjamin Graham's book on investing in the 1940s and 50s, trying to predict what the stock market is going to do is nearly impossible now. But can you imagine how he differentiated himself by doing all these algorithms by hand?

Brian (31:20)
Yeah.

Lance Dacy (31:48)
And so what I mean by that is we need to use AI and these tools to help do more predictive customer experiences. So Amazon does a good job. Netflix employs a lot of data analytics to help understand viewing habits. Starbucks does this. Spotify does it. So I really feel like in 2025, if you want something to focus on and you're a software product development company practicing agile, build literacy of AI tools with your team. Make sure we're using them the right way. Track the right. data, but more importantly, let's discover what our customers are doing and behaving and use the AI to help us decipher that information a lot easier so that we as humans can make a decision on where we spend the great scarce capacity of our teams building great products for them. And so there's a lot of things that go into that, but I feel like that's going to be the focus in 2025. That's what's going to separate the people that succeed even individually. How are you going to differentiate yourself from a market pool of people out there? You need to start learning how to use these tools and differentiate yourself. That's the for 2025.

Brian (32:52)
Yeah. No, that's a great point. I'll tag on and say that I know there's this, people probably have heard of this, there's a social media kind of trend of if you use chat GPT or something like that a lot to go to it and say, tell me some insights about myself that I may not know, just based on all my interactions with you. And that was a trend for a while for people to ask that and then. they were shocked in some of the things that would come out from chat GPT. Well, what I found in taking a couple of courses and things about AI is, it's really good at taking a large amount of data and then pulling out things that you may not be aware of. I think that's going to be something, the more data driven we are, obviously the better because we have facts behind it. And as you said, it has to be the right, we have to collect the right kind of data. you can take a big...

Lance Dacy (33:19)
Yep. Yes.

Brian (33:43)
source of data and feed it into an AI like ChatGPT and say, give me five hidden insights from this data. Yeah.

Lance Dacy (33:50)
Yeah, stuff you thought about, right? I think insights, that's the way to put it. And I used to have a saying being a data analytics guy for 20 years. Most people and organizations are data rich, but information poor. And I would like to change that word nowadays to insights poor because

Brian (34:09)
Yeah.

Lance Dacy (34:09)
We may have all the data and tracking data, there's no harm in that, know, storage is cheap these days. So go ahead and track it all. You can report on it infinite number of ways. And that's the secret sauce. And I think you just hit it on the head that, just go ahead and start tracking stuff. Let AI, you can't ever read that amount of data as a human being and decipher it. Let the machine do that. But then you can test it. You can say, do I really believe that or not? Because you have a humanistic experience that AI doesn't have. So we should embrace that.

Brian (34:40)
Yeah, I agree. Well, I mean, I hope people are hopeful. I'm hopeful. I know when I start a new year, I generally am hopeful because that's just the way I try to start new years. But I'm hopeful for some of these changes. think the tools that we have are just making things, some things that might have been more mundane, a little easier for us to do. And maybe that allows us to focus. Well, like the data I brought about at the very beginning, you the fact that there's a rise in, you know, postings and companies needing jobs that require human judgment and decision-making. I think that's where we're headed is, you know, that rise in human judgment and decision-making skill. And that's something that's at least at the moment, you know, our computers can't do for us. And it really does require, just like you talked about, understanding our customers. I can't put an AI out there to try to interview all my customers and get deep. Well, but not and get the kind of deep insights I want, right? Not to find out what the real problems are. It wouldn't know how to question it enough and dig deeper into different ways to truly figure those out. So it requires huge human judgment and decision-making. And I think that's where we...

Lance Dacy (35:35)
you could. Right.

Brian (35:51)
now bring the value is in that area.

Lance Dacy (35:53)
Well, and people hate change, right? So let's just end with this. know, most people, customers, you change things on the product. You put a new car design. We usually don't like it. So you want to hang in there and not get too distracted by noise with that. mean, remember when the first iPhone came out, you know, older generations like this is too complicated. I don't want to use it. And there is something to say for that. But eventually that's what we use and we learn how to adapt to it. So stay hyper competitive in 2025. Foster continuous learning for your team. So stay updated on industry trends. It'll lead time to experiment and invest in your team's learning. Prioritize collaboration and innovation. None of us are smarter than all of us together. Break down the silos. Encourage the cross-functional collaboration. And experimentation is going to be key. Leaders and managers in particular. must foster an environment where it's safe to not do so well. I tried something, it didn't work, and I'm sorry about that, but I learned from it and I'm going to try it this way next time. That's not a huge thing right now. We need to foster that. The last one, focus on delivering value. Keep the customer at the center of everything. Use metrics to measure your real world impact, not just the outputs. And I think that's how we can summarize everything that we talked about. Those are the three things if we had to take away. continuous learning, collaboration and innovation, and focus on delivering value. Good luck in 2025, right, Brian?

Brian (37:19)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome. Well, I hope this has been beneficial to folks. And Lance, I appreciate you keeping our tradition and helping us look forward into the new year. obviously, a very happy new year to you and your family. And thank you for coming back and joining us.

Lance Dacy (37:35)
Yeah, likewise to you, Brian. Glad to do it. Hope to see you all soon. Thank you all.

Missed some episodes this year? Don’t worry—Brian’s got you covered with a highlight reel of 2024’s most memorable moments, featuring game-changing insights from Agile thought leaders and innovators. Tune in to catch up, reflect, and set your sights on a stellar 2025!

Overview

In this special year-end episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian takes us on a trip down memory lane, sharing highlights from some of the most impactful conversations of the year.

Featuring insights from Agile legends like Mike Cohn, Clinton Keith, Heather McGowan, and more, this curated selection is packed with golden nuggets that you can revisit or discover for the first time.

Whether you missed an episode or want to relive the best moments, this recap is a perfect way to close out 2024 and prepare for what’s ahead.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

#79 Navigating Agile Trends and Challenges in 2024 with Lance Dacy
#86 Revisiting User Stories with Mike Cohn
#90 Mastering Agile Coaching with Cherie Silas
#93 The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn
#100 Navigating the Future of Agile and Scrum with Lance Dacy & Scott Dunn
#111 Adapting to the Future of Work with Heather McGowan
#120 Agile in Gaming with Clinton Keith
#123 Unlocking Team Intelligence with Linda Rising
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• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
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This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian Milner (00:00.622)
I'm Brian Milner and this is the Agile Mentors Podcast, a show about both the personal and organizational journey towards agility. My friends and I will be sharing with you what we've collectively learned from seeing thousands of companies Agile implementations, apparels and pitfalls, as well as the secrets to success. We'll share our personal in the trenches experiences so that you can apply what we've learned in a practical way in your careers. We also hope to hear and learn from you as well. If you're like us and are always in search of better ways of working together, you're in the right place. Join us, mentor, and be mentored. Let's get started.

Brian Milner (00:53.288)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for the final episode of 2024. Believe it or not, we have reached all the way to the end. You might be thinking, wait, there's a few more weeks left. Yeah, there's a few more weeks left, but the next release date would have been on Christmas Day itself and the one following would have been on New Year's Day. So we're gonna take two weeks off to be with our families after this episode. And we encourage you to enjoy that time, take the time with your family as well and friends, and truly wish you the best over that time period. But before we get there, we do have one more episode for you. We thought what we'd do for today's episode might be tiny bit different than normal. In fact, I don't think we've done anything like this before. What I wanted to do is, since it is the last episode of the year, is to look back over the past year and play you some portions of some of the really fantastic discussions that we had over this past year. Just pull out a handful of these to talk to you about. If they sound interesting to you, maybe you can go back and take a listen to those episodes. So let's get right into it, because I don't want to waste time setting it up any more than that. For starters, I want to go back to something that's now kind of a tradition for us, and the next one you'll hear from us after this episode will be the continuation of that. The beginning of this year in 2024, we started things off and we kicked it off with friend of the show, Lance Dacey. And that episode was really about looking forward into 2024. And for us to talk about what we maybe thought was coming and what we saw in the future, and then trying to somehow make some predictions or give some advice about how we might be better prepared for it. And one of the areas that came out in that discussion was really talking about how leadership affected an Agile transformation and Agile with the culture of an organization. So I'll play you a little clip here from Lance's discussion. One of the thoughts that he had in that episode, really talking more about how we need to go to the next level with our organizations and with the leadership in our organization. Take a listen. We've been trying to scale Scrum and Agile for a long time and we've written the practices on how to do it.

Brian Milner (03:13.23)
but we're not allowing the people to practice that. You know, just got through coaching. My youngest son is in fifth grade and we coach his football team. It's like, we're going to sit down and tell you during this play, here's the stance that you take to block. You're basically a robot. Do everything that we say, even if you don't understand it, because the whole scheme for that play is built on everybody doing their job exactly as prescribed. But as you evolve into professional football or high school football, they've learned so much about those mechanics. that's really fun now because they've got the IQ to respond to what's in front of them. That's agile. And that to me is what we have to start learning in organizations, is we know how to run the play at the team level, but how do we build up the people to run the play correctly in challenges when there's adaptations that need to be made? And a lot of times management and leadership is the suffocating part of that where they don't allow for that. It's always interesting to go back and look at those conversations that we have at beginning of the year. and see kind of how it played out. Were we right? Were we wrong? So if you're interested in that, check out that. That was just episode 79 was the first one that we did in 2024. Next up, I'm gonna jump to episode 86. This was one with our very own Mike Cohn. Mike had come back on because quite frankly, we've had for many years a set of user stories that were sample user stories that you could come to our website and download just as a resource for people if they wanted to see what... samples of user stories look like, try to imagine what that would look like in their particular context. So that's why we had this collection of user stories. Well, Mike went back to re-edit those recently, and then he took kind of another look at it and had forced him to kind of reconsider some things, wanted to share some thoughts about those new ideas and thoughts he had about user stories, just in re-examining ones that he had put together previously. So in this next clip, what you'll hear Mike talk about is really kind of a controversy maybe just his own controversy internally, but kind of a shift that he had over the years and really the template itself for a user story. So take a listen to this. I had a bunch of slides. I looked at them a few years ago to confirm this. I looked at them and they all said, I want to blank, right? And it was what the user wants. And sometimes it's not what the user wants. So if you look at slide decks that I create today, they all say, I.

Brian Milner (05:36.866)
They don't say I can, they don't say I want to, they just say I, and then you fill in the verb. For example, as user, I am required to enter a strong password. I don't want to enter a strong password. I want to type in my dog's name and let the system know it's me, right? So I am required to enter a strong password that doesn't fit with I want to or I can. I can enter a strong password? Well, that doesn't really help. I don't want to. I can enter a strong password. I can enter a weak password. Is that possible? So I do think there's problems with I can, but I leave all of that out of the template and I let the situation determine what that verb should be. Always an interesting conversation there with Mike Cohn. Very, very lucky and fortunate to have him come on usually multiple times per year. And that was just one of the times that Mike came on our show this last year, but really, really interesting stuff there about user stories. If that's something you're interested in, I encourage you to check out that. That was episode 86 with Mike Cohn on user stories. Now we're gonna jump ahead to episode 90. Episode 90, we had a friend of mine, Sheree Silas, come on. Sheree is a very authoritative, knowledgeable person on Agile coaching. In fact, she is the person that I most likely am going to point you to if you come to me and want to find out more about Agile coaching. She has some really great classes and other things that she teaches. And we had her on to talk about Agile coaching, obviously. And one of the things that came up is something that I hear sometimes in classes that Some of this coaching stuff you talk about sounds a little bit like counseling a little bit. Is there a crossover there with counseling? Is this a counseling job? So take a listen to what Shree had to say in response to that question. As an adult coach, you are not an organizational psychologist. You are not a counselor. You are not an organizational therapist or any of those things. That is not the job. The job is consulting, mentoring, training. and some coaching, helping people how to learn how to negotiate, learn how to collaborate, learn how to have good, healthy conflict. And there's helping them to get the business results they want. And it's very frustrating when you kind of hear this taking all the way to the other end of, we're just there to do woo-woo touchy feely stuff. I'm the psychologist. No, that's not your job. And you're not trained to do that. And that's part of the coaching work.

Brian Milner (08:03.136)
is to help them understand what they need and what they don't. And even as a professional coach, it is my job to make sure my client understands what coaching is and what it's not. And as an Agile coach, that's part of the work is to make sure the client understands what this work is and what it's not. Yeah, really good stuff there about Agile coaching. If you're interested in finding out more about that, listen to that episode. You'll hear more from Sheree on episode 90 about Agile coaching. Next up, I have a relatively new friend of mine, but one that, you know, feel like brother from another mother. Mr. Evan Layborn was on and he came on to talk about some research that his organization had done in partnership with the Scrum Alliance. And in particular, there was one component of that that I wanted to question him about because when I initially read it, it gave me a little bit of some misgivings about it. One of the things I mentioned was that traditionally we have always talked about being a T-shaped individual on a Scrum team that had a depth of experience in one area. but a breadth of experience in other areas that you just weren't an expert in. You were only really looking to be an expert in one area. But this report kind of brought to bear this idea of what they're calling a pie-shaped individual. So think about the mathematical symbol pie and how it has two lines going down. It's kind of like a T with two lines going down from it, right? And when I saw that, initially my first thought was, well, is this just organizations trying to get by with less head count? Take a listen to what Evan had to say about that. I want to be clear that when we're talking about pie-shaped individuals and companies looking for pi-shaped individuals, we're not talking about companies who are looking for one person to do two jobs. They're not looking for someone who's got two skills because they're trying to fill two roles. They're trying to fill two jobs. We're talking about one person, one job, and using multiple skill sets to do that job better. more effectively. In the technology world, we've had a word for this in the tech world for 10 years, full stack developer. A full stack developer is a pie-shaping, it's a developer with test competence and operations competence. They can deploy a DevOps environment. That full stack developer is a prime example of a pie-shaped person. It's not one person doing two jobs. It's one person doing one job with a variety of skill sets.

Brian Milner (10:30.752)
and doing that job better, exponentially better because of it. There's some really interesting other insights that Evan had in that episode. highly recommend that to you. That was episode 93 with Mr. Evan Layborne. Next up, well, we celebrated a milestone. We had our hundredth episode, if you can believe it or not. And we thought it would be appropriate to celebrate by having two people that we have on quite frequently on the podcast, Mr. Lance Dacey. and Mr. Scott Dunn. So we had something that we don't often have here on the show where we had multiple guests, but we had Lance and Scott on to really look back over the past 100 episodes and look ahead a little bit into what we thought might be coming. And one of the interesting kind of conversations we had there was thinking about some of the changes taking place in the workplace today. You'll hear Scott kind of start in on this with. thinking about the kind of dilemma organizations are facing with the work from home versus work from office kind of situation. And then Lance will come in and kind of relate it more to some larger agility issues as well. Take a listen. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go agile because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, I could be wrong. Maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board. But there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're going to see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? you get this or not? You cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation. is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about, you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. It was always such fun to have both those people on our podcast and it was even more fun to have them both on at the same time. So I really appreciate both Lance and Scott really helping us celebrate there. The fact that we crossed that threshold into a

Brian Milner (12:38.326)
our 100th episode. Next up is someone that I found really fascinating. is Miss Heather McGowan. And she was the keynote speaker at the Scrum Gathering this year in New Orleans. And she was so gracious to come on the podcast and talk with us a little bit. She had some really great insights. Just listen to what she had to say here in thinking about sort of the place of work in general as a part of our lives today. But what I think what's really happening is we've outsized what work is in our lives. So community used to consist of social interactions, religious affiliations, clubs and groups we belong to, all of those kind of, if you think of them as circles, because everything's visual to me, all those circles shrank and work became bigger. So now part of this generational change, but more and more people are looking for work to provide their purpose. work to provide most of their relationships, work to fill these. It's a little bit in terms of how we're interacting with each other that's causing illness, but it's also an outsize expectation we have around work. So now it becomes table stakes for a lot of organizations for work to be my self-expression, work to be my sense of purpose, work to be where I think about my values. And it wasn't like that a few decades ago. I heard from a couple of people after this episode, just friends of mine talking about it. I want to make sure I'm clear about something here that Heather was saying, she's not saying that we should find our values from those places. She's just saying that's kind of how society has shifted a little bit. So you can debate whether it's good or bad, whether the other circles that she mentioned had shrunk or grown or anything like that. But really that's kind of the reality we're left with is that there's a lot of people who find their belongingness from work today, as I said, whether that's a good or bad thing, you can debate. but that's certainly a reality I think we have to live with. And this was a really interesting discussion. So I highly encourage you to check that out if you want to. That was episode number 111 with Heather McGowan. Next up was someone I found really interesting as well. This was Mr. Clinton Keith. Clinton is a veteran of the gaming industry. And I know there's always some interest in that in our listeners and in the Agile community about how you really can apply some of these Agile principles and things.

Brian Milner (14:55.704)
to an industry that's so fast moving like the gaming industry. Well, as I said, Clint has worked in that industry for a very long time and he's seen pretty much everything there. He's worked in all different kinds of gaming companies. He's helped them to learn and apply these agile principles along the way. So I'll just share a snippet of the conversation that we had. In this clip, he's talking really about how some of these principles we talk about like, individuals and interactions over processes and tools and are we letting something like a new technology drive how we do things or is it really more about what's the value we're trying to deliver, right? And in the gaming industry, it's fun. It's delivering something that's fun. So take a listen to what he had to say about kind of one of these experiences he had about really finding the fun. The big light bulb moment was having a short deadline on showing something of value. led to people making better choices from the player's perspective, not this challenge of, what can I do with artificial intelligence over the next two years? That's part of the big challenge with these big, huge games of saying, it's like, hey, if there's not a payoff, if you can't see value, and this was an early lesson I learned working with Nintendo of Japan, the guy that made Mario and Donkey Kong, we worked with him directly, Miyamoto. You always had this thing, it's like, the fun fast, show the value of it. And it always stuck with me. When you have these short deadlines, you want to encourage the teams and the product owners is judge the game. Not what you see in the potential in two years. Judge your vision of the two years against what you're seeing every other week and adjust your expectations. Don't fall in love with your vision. Judge the game. Don't fall in love with your vision. Such great advice there, and I think it's so applicable to really industry. Don't get caught up in that word game, right? Judge the product. Think about it that way. I think sometimes, especially for us as product owners, sometimes we can look at that and say, we've got these grand visions and grand designs for our product, in two years we're gonna have this incredible product that's gonna do all these things. Well, you may not make it to two years. You may not make it to two years if you don't.

Brian Milner (17:16.897)
deliver a value earlier, right? If you don't capture the imagination and attention of your customers, if you don't solve a problem for them upfront, we know the big idea is gonna take longer to get to, but I think what Clinton is saying here, and it's really an important point, I think, is that that's part of what we kind of focus on as Agilist is trying to find the value and deliver it early. So just a really fascinating episode there as well with Clinton. Encourage you to check that out, especially if you have interest in the gaming industry, lots of good content there from him in episode 120. Lastly today, I'm gonna leave you with one last one that wasn't too long ago here, but we had someone that is kind of a beloved figure in the Agile community. She's often referred to as an Agile visionary. That's Ms. Linda Rising. And she came on to talk about multiple things with us, but one of the things that she talked about in our conversation, was about a research project that Google did several years back called Project Aristotle. They were trying to figure out kind of the components, what went into making a high-performing team. So just listen to what Linda has to say about what their scientific research kind of uncovered about really what goes into making a team high-performing. All these different researchers made the same mistake in the beginning. and it's the same mistake organizations make. They thought in the beginning that what makes a smart team is smart people. Wrong. Not that you don't want smart people. You can have a team of very smart people that doesn't have any of these other characteristics that is not intelligent as a group. We really have to wake up and realize, first of all, that we're doing that, that we're valuing IQ or individual intelligence, smartness, you went to this school or you got that particular SAT score. It has nothing to do with that. It's not that there's no correlation, but it's weak. It's much better to have people who have these other characteristics. I just have to say

Brian Milner (19:38.444)
We are so spoiled Agile mentors with some of the great people like Linda Rising that we get to hear on this podcast and learn from really as sort of a masterclass from some of the best thinkers in this industry. And I know I'm very thankful for them taking their time and thankful for people like Linda Rising coming on the show. If that dialogue that you just heard there sounds interesting, check out that episode. It was episode 123. Linda talks about a lot of lot more great stuff there in that episode. But yeah, we get so many great guests on our show and that was just a handful. It's hard to even pick out just, I think we just had eight of them there. It's hard to pick out just eight over the past year, because there were just so many. And any of the other guests on here, I hope you don't feel like you were not in the top eight or anything. This was just a sampling. I just wanted to pull some different kinds of episodes and I think there was quite a variety of guests and topics and things that we had on the show this year. It just makes me excited about thinking about what's possible in the next year. I know we're gonna be trying some new things. I've been interacting with some of you at the Agile Mentors Community and you've been talking to me about some suggestions about things that maybe we can do. And we're gonna try that. We're gonna try some new things going into the new year. So you may see some shifts from time to time of just a few experiments that we might be trying. As always, we'd love to hear your feedback on any of those things, but we're always in search of making this the most valuable use of your time. We think that the quality of the people, like you just heard, is pretty good. We're pretty happy with the people that really decide to come on the show, and we're very humbled by the fact that they choose to come on our show. I just wanna always make it the most valuable use of your time. We want this to be the most valuable Agile podcast that's out there. As always, if there's anything we can do to change that, I'll go ahead and just say that now. email us podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Put that at the end of every episode. Truly mean it. If there's things that you want us to experiment with or try, if there's guests you want to hear, in addition to some of these great guests you heard today, there's other people that maybe that you think would be good on the podcast, send us an email, podcast at mountegoatsoftware.com. Or if there's a topic that you want us to cover, let us know that as well. We'd be more than happy to try and put that in. In our planning,

Brian Milner (22:01.666)
we try to always put the listener's suggestion kind of towards the top of our backlog. It may not be the very next thing we do, but we try to make that as soon as possible. Oftentimes we have to find the right guest, but as soon as we find the right guest, we want to get that listener suggestion on as soon as possible. So thank you for those that have made suggestions in the past and keep them coming. I'll just go into a few other things then and wrap up and get you on your way. It's been fun looking back over the last year. And as I said, I'm excited about seeing where we go next year. Speaking of that, just make sure that you like and subscribe to the podcast. That way you don't miss any of these things, like any of these great episodes that you heard little snippets of here in this podcast episode. And with that, I guess that'll be a wrap for another year. So Agile Mentors, my heartfelt happy holidays to you. Whatever you celebrate this season, I truly, truly hope that you get to spend some time with your family, your friends, your loved ones. truly hope that you get some time to reflect on what you're grateful and thankful for. I hope you come back next year refreshed, ready to go. I hope that's part of your sustainable pace, that time of renewing with the people in your life that are closest to you. We look forward to seeing what happens with you in the new year. So join us back next year. We'll kick things off. We'll be back here in just a few weeks. And on the 8th of January will be our next episode that we release. And we'll have our... of annual sit down with Lance Dacey to look ahead to 2025 and see what's coming up then. So join us and hope you have a very, very happy holidays. See you next time on another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.

How do you navigate a bumpy job market with an agile mindset? Join Brian and leadership coach Mark Kilby as they explore practical strategies for staying prepared, leveraging your network, and taking ownership of your career during uncertain times.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Mark Kilby explore how to approach the challenges of today’s unpredictable job market with an agile mindset. Drawing on insights from Mark’s extensive career as a leadership and career coach, they discuss how preparation, adaptability, and proactive networking are essential to staying ahead.

Mark emphasizes the importance of treating your career like a product, continuously iterating and inspecting trends to navigate change effectively. The conversation also delves into the power of maintaining strong professional relationships, keeping your resume and LinkedIn profile up to date, and using experimentation to explore new career paths.

Whether you're facing a career transition, considering your next step, or simply looking to stay prepared, this episode offers actionable advice to help you take ownership of your professional journey.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Mark Kilby
From Chaos to Successful Distributed Agile Teams: Collaborate to Deliver by Johanna Rothman & Mark Kilby
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Mark Kilby is a leadership and career coach specializing in helping leaders and teams thrive in complexity. Passionate about building more inclusive and effective organizations, he draws on years of experience guiding professionals through organizational change, remote work transitions, and sustainable growth, all with a focus on fostering trust, collaboration, and long-term success.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back and this is another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always Brian Milner and today I've got a friend that I have seen talk several times at conferences, we were talking, I don't think I've actually crossed paths with him personally yet, but Mr. Mark Kilby is here. Welcome in Mark.

Mark Kilby (00:21)
Thank you, Brian, and glad that we finally had a chance to meet virtually face to face at least.

Brian (00:26)
Right? Right? Yeah. And today's world, you know, that's actually saying a lot. You know, that's kind of the default. Mark is a leadership and career coach and has been, you know, a speaker at multiple Agile conferences over the years. He has a book that he co-authored called From Chaos to Successful Distributed Agile Teams. And he has spoken on lots of different topics.

Mark Kilby (00:31)
Yes it is.

Brian (00:51)
But when we talked about having him on, we talked about a topic that I know is very topical here. For some of you, maybe, know, kind of right in the meat of where you are at the moment, but really starting to think about this bumpy job market a little bit and how to navigate that with an agile mindset. You know, this agile stuff is not just stuff we talk about in working with a team, but it actually is a way of thinking about you know, doing anything. give me kind of your description there, Mark. When you think about, you know, navigating a bumpy job market with an agile mindset, how does that look different from others?

Mark Kilby (01:27)
So, well, it. The best way to think about this is whether you get this out of college at career placement or you're working with a career coach later on, it's always plan out your route and just follow the steps. Well, it's kind of hard over the last couple of years to say what the right steps are because so much has happened. And you and I were talking just before we hit the record button about one of the things that gets a little bumpy here in Florida, and we call those hurricanes. And I've learned over the many years living in Florida that you can prepare for hurricanes, but you can't prepare for exactly what happens. And so it's kind of the same way these days with our careers. You can maybe get certain certifications, you may get the right resume, the right LinkedIn profile, but if... If you're not paying attention to how the market shifts, and I think many people have been caught off guard with the latest market shifts, you can be in a world of hurt. how do do the prep to weather that storm? So that's kind what I'm focusing on these days.

Brian (02:42)
That's awesome. That's awesome way to look at it. Cause I think you're right. know, like I know I personally have gone through a couple of, you know, layoff periods in my career and, you know, it's never something when it hits, well, at least I shouldn't say this in my experience, I absolutely were completely prepared for, they were a little bit of a shock when they happened and

Mark Kilby (02:51)
yeah.

Brian (03:05)
first one much more so than the second one. I think you learn something from each time something like that happens. But you mentioned kind of the way the market is shifting and the way things are changing a little bit and trying to be prepared. So I wanna follow that for a little. So when you talk about navigating kind of a bumpy job market and the shifts and being prepared, how do you prepare for the unknown? For things that you don't really know what's coming or you don't really know how things are shifting. How do we do that?

Mark Kilby (03:38)
Yeah. Well, it's paying attention to some of the longer term trends. mean, 100 years ago, know, kind of fall into the hurricane example. We had no way to predict these. And now we've got a little better way. have models to kind of guess and it's still guessing. So, but at least we have a sense of, OK, how big is it going to be? You know, how big is the change that's going to happen? How do we prepare for it? Do we stay in place? Where we're at? Is it time to move and do something else? So it's kind of the same way with our careers these days. I'm gonna guess, not everyone's gonna have the visual, but with the amount of gray on the podcast right now, you could probably relate to this. Our parents probably stuck in the same job. most of their life. I learned early on, especially in tech, the changes that happen rapidly. Matter of fact, the place where I went as a summer intern shut down the next year. The whole plant went poof. But my parents were like, how can you? It's such a great place. This company's been around for decades. But I could tell that the winds were changing. Something was shifting there. So I learned to look at, right, how is the business doing? How is the market doing for the business? And what does that mean for me? So it really helps that we kind of build up our own little model to predict, you know, how is my job going to be here in the next year or so? Even five years ago, I saw early indicators that Azure coaches, scrum masters, we're going to be at risk. But the job market was going to turn. think several people could tell that. But I mean, we had so many that were going into that, that the set of roles and we were also, you we we were seeing some failures as well as successes with transformation. And I remember, so I actually had Ken Schwaber in my, as my my Scrum instructor, I remember him saying, know, Scrum will not solve your problems. It'll make them highly visible. But guess who gets blamed? The person who made it visible. you know, as, as agile coaches and Scrum masters, you know, were the, those folks in particular are always navigating a tightrope. You know, what, what do you, you know, what do you make visible, both the good and the bad? And if, if you're dealing,

Brian (05:55)
Yeah. Right.

Mark Kilby (06:17)
with cultures that are more focused on short-term kind of improvements and not looking at the longer term. How are people staying engaged? How are the steam aligned so they can do to deliver business value? You know, if that's not a focus of the organization, then it's that job, that role is going to be probably misunderstood and was. And so when things start going bad, fingers start getting pointed. It's like, okay, maybe we don't need these folks. And we've seen that for the last couple of years in particular, but we were getting early indicators well before that, well before the pandemic hit. So that shift was gonna happen. So we can model some of this is my point.

Brian (07:01)
Yeah. I like that. Go ahead. Well, I was going to go straight to that. I I like the comparison there with the hurricane. And I was thinking as you were talking about that, why are we better at it now? I would kind of presuppose it's because of the amount of data. But the more data we have, over the years, the better we are. And that if we've suddenly, magically, for whatever reason, lost all our historical data of hurricanes and what they do, then I would imagine we'd be back to square one of not really being able to predict very well about where they go. So translating that over into our careers, I love that comparison. And I love what you're pointing to to say, you can see indicators, can look at the trends, you can see how's the business doing. So that's kind of one of the things I want to ask you about a little bit is, especially here in this agile world, I know there's, I've heard lots of talk about, is this overall an agile thing that is on a decline or is this really more driven as an economy at large that's going through problems. And so we're kind of trickling down from that and feeling that. if I'm an employee for a company, what I'm trying to navigate then and figure out is I want to see trends for our business on the whole, but I also am trying to...

Mark Kilby (08:38)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (08:40)
fit that in with what the overall economy is and the market out there to see, is this just an overall thing for all of businesses right now and for the full economy or is this specifically something to do with our business that is kind of a, I would think a bigger warning sign than to start to get more prepared.

Mark Kilby (08:59)
Well, going back to the hurricane metaphor again, there's multiple things that impact that. It's the same thing for our jobs. So it's what data do you need to gather? And you pointed out to some of that. So what's happening with the company? What are you seeing in press releases? What are you seeing in commentary on your organization? I'll give an example of a company that no longer exists. So can safely speak about this company. So a company I was at early in my career and was well known in the Java programming space. They actually hosted a lot of Java sites at the time. They were also at the top of the, not the AI boom, but what was called the internet boom, know, dot com boom way back. And they went through the same Friends that a lot of companies did spending a lot of money Not pulling not pulling in revenue and it was very public how much they were spending When it became obvious that they bought like very expensive real estate office real estate in in Boston Harbor area and they bought very expensive real estate elsewhere You don't have to be a financial wizard to figure out like all right if they're spending all this money and and we're seeing pundits in other news sources say, yeah, we're not sure about this company. And you're seeing a lot of that. You might start to wonder as an employee, like, I wonder if I am really safe here. Is it time to hunker down or is it time to move? So you've got to gather your own data about your company, your industry, and even the broader economy. If you ignore that, you kind of ignore it at your own peril. We have to be the product owners of our own career.

Brian (10:47)
Mm, I love that. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. Well, so shifting gears a little bit, because I think we obviously are not going to, we're soothsayers or anything. We can't foretell the future exactly. And there's always going to be things that kind of catch us off guard. There's the unknowns and that's

Mark Kilby (10:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian (11:10)
Partly what we talk about a lot in Agile is just the idea that you can't know everything upfront. So you got to be prepared. You got to have a system that works for you that kind of allows for those unknowns to come along and then allows you to adjust as you're going through. So that's kind of where I want to go next then is if we accept the fact that, we have indicators and they can give us an indication about the job market or about our company. And we have to kind of assess those independently to see if it's time to move or we should be ready for something to happen or not. Once that threshold is crossed, once we make that decision, or it's made for us, then we're into a whole other world. And we talk about this being a bumpy job market. Well, it's bumpy on both sides of that threshold. So how would that apply to you? After you've crossed that threshold, how do we use Agile and an Agile mindset to navigate the task and the hardships of trying to find the next thing?

Mark Kilby (12:16)
Well, there's even a little bit before that. So that's OK, but a great question. And I'll come back around to it. So just as you're starting any agile project or program, there's some setup. There's some prep that you have to put in place. And I'm going to tie back to the hurricane metaphor here also. There are seasons for that prep sometimes. So think about the season you're in.

Brian (12:18)
Okay, sorry.

Mark Kilby (12:41)
month to month, quarter to quarter, and maybe you're wrapping up a big program, that would be a great time to update your resume and your LinkedIn. Not waiting until you're out of a job, but go ahead and just like, you know, I think I'm going to update. And people will say, but I don't want other people to know that I've updated my LinkedIn profile. There's an option for that. You can shut that off so that doesn't happen. But you want to get in that, that there's prep seasons like, okay, if something were to happen, what do I need to do? What do I, what, what I need to have ready? So keeping that resume up to date, keeping that LinkedIn profile up to date, then looking at, okay, I I've kind of doing these, these cycles of, of prep and also reflection on past work. Maybe I want to think about what was the work I enjoyed that I want to amplify through. LinkedIn, resume, and maybe even talk about a LinkedIn and kind of be broadcasting a little bit. I really enjoyed this project we just finished up. That gets you a little bit out there. And I can already hear the introverts cringing. But if you talk about the ideas, what you learned as an introvert, that works for me.

Brian (13:47)
Hahaha.

Mark Kilby (13:56)
I mean, that's how I got into remote work because I found interesting ideas and concepts to talk about. And that's how I got known by that. I looking to make a job switch? No. But I was broadcasting, hey, this is the kind of stuff I really enjoy doing, hoping to attract others who are also interested in that. And yes, it did lead to new job opportunities. So I got hired in 2014 because of the stuff I posted in LinkedIn around those times. So it's kind of doing that inspect and adapt, inspecting, where am I currently as I wrap up a big significant chunk of work? How do I capture some of that? What do I want to reflect? And what do I want to kind of make transparent about what I liked about that? Then let's say the winds turn and things get a little bumpy. Well, if you've... If you've been kind of connecting people, connecting with people online, if you've been kind of talking about, this is kind of things I do, it's much easier to go out there and say, hey, I'm looking for a new opportunity. You've seen what I've talked about online. What ideas, what do you have network? What do you have community? So it makes it much easier if you do some of that prep work and kind of reflect and inspect into that.

Brian (15:20)
Yeah, I'm getting a connection there too. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but I'm getting kind of a connection because I know in the agile world, we're all about how teams work together and just kind of that whole mindset of the best architectures, designs, right? The best stuff comes from a group of people working alongside each other. And I'm connecting that a little bit to what you just said, because you're talking a lot about how you're reaching out to the community through your LinkedIn profile and through post and other things. And that feels a little like you're kind of teaming, like you're teaming up with the network that you've made to try to solve this big problem that you have.

Mark Kilby (16:05)
And from a career standpoint, we team in different ways. mean, how many of us have been to courses, conferences, we've met people that we've kind of connected with, or we've talked about some great ideas, like, yeah, let's stay connected, let's talk more about that. How often do you follow up with those people? Do you like forget until the next conference? Do you maybe check in every six months? Maybe a little sooner? Maybe say, hey, what kind of projects are you working on based on that idea we talked about? Reach out to those connections that you made. of just not to keep them warm, but just to say, hey, what are you working on? How does it compare to what I'm working on? Let's just talk about that. Let's do some more reflection on that.

Brian (16:49)
I think that's great advice because I hear what you were saying earlier and agree. It's kind of a struggle when you're working at a company and you're not really sure yet whether you're moving on or you're not and no one has told you anything. But you're starting to feel the signs and you're starting to look around and say, maybe it's time, but it's not right for me to just blast it. It's not right for me to go to LinkedIn and...

Mark Kilby (17:02)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Brian (17:15)
Because you don't want the boss or coworker to see that and say, what's going on? You don't want that to happen. But I think you're right. There's more subtle ways you can do that by just starting to connect to key people in your network. And I like that phrase. I like being able to say, hey, what's going on in this area? Or what have you done in this area that we talked about when we last connected? I think that's a great approach to that.

Mark Kilby (17:40)
because it's so much easier to ask for help when you need it then, rather than if you haven't talked to that person in five years since you saw them in a conference. But if you stayed in touch and just talked about, hey, here's some things I'm dealing with at work, how about you? What are you coming across? What are you learning? What are you trying? Or what are you struggling with? And if they know you're struggling, then they might say, hey, you know, I heard of this opportunity. And that's where the network helps you. That's where the team helps you out.

Brian (18:12)
Yeah. They always say that, you know, like that's the, that's your strongest avenue to, to another job is, is, you know, a personal connection and inroad, to the company. Cause you bypass all the, you know, all the silly AI stuff of scanning through resumes and do you have the right keywords and all that stuff? which, know, that's a whole other thing. but, you know, if you do, I think you're right. If you can make that personal connection.

Mark Kilby (18:34)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (18:39)
your resume can go to the top of the pile. You skip the initial vetting, you go to the interview, and once you get the interview, then you're golden from that point forward. Yeah, I love that. That's a great approach and I like the idea of continuing to maintain that network. But I will tell you, from my first layoff to my second layoff and how I kind of approach things was very, very different. And I'm kind of curious how this fits in with what you advise people as well, because I know my first layoff, I got a little snowed by certain people where I started to make strong connections. I started to go through energy process with people and they're in the full recruitment mode at that point, because they don't know if it's going to be you or somebody else. if you get to be... you know, one of the finalists, they're interviewing you, but they're also recruiting you. And I know I made that mistake early in my career of just thinking, well, I'm close. I'm close with these things. So I don't need to worry about continuing to do the day-to-day hard work of reaching out and making new connections and starting the process new. Because I don't want to lead them on. I don't want anybody to think that I'm, you know, interested when I'm so close with this other one over here.

Mark Kilby (19:45)
yeah.

Brian (19:54)
And yeah, I learned pretty quickly that's a mistake. know, those things, there's no promises. And you know, you gotta keep turning that crank every day of sending things out. So how does that fit in a little bit with the strategy?

Mark Kilby (19:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well. Well. mean, to map it back to Azure concepts, you never prepped just one thing on the backlog. You're looking at what are some things that might pop up in this next sprint or this next phase of work? What is it that we might consider, but we're gonna make the final decision when it's time to make that decision? So you can't be in that stage as you talk about those final conversations and you're still doing the dance with them. It's like. You're confirming is this the right place and they're confirming are you the right one to bring in? That's not the decision point. The decision point is when the offer is made. So you've got to get some other things. You got to keep some other things going in the backlog. Keep it going, keep it going. And I would say even once you've accepted that offer, you might wait a week. because I've had some colleagues where they've gone in, they've gone through those interviews and maybe everything wasn't as advertised in the position. I think some of us have been in that where you go and it's like, this is not the job I signed up for. So keep those other connections warm for a week or two, just in case, just in case.

Brian (21:24)
Yeah, that's great advice. I tell a story sometimes to people in the classes about how there was a job I went to that's interviewed and they were asking me all sorts of agile questions. They wanted me to come in because of my agile expertise. I get in and unfortunately for me, it took a few months before it became clear that they were actually hearing the word agile from their division leader. And the division leader was not using capital A Agile. They were using small a Agile and saying, we just need to be faster. But he would throw out the word Agile. And so they heard Agile and thought, well, we need to know about this Agile thing. And yeah, that was not a good fit. That was not as advertised. I wish I had found that out earlier. But you make the decisions when you cross that threshold. Well, this is good advice. And I'm kind of curious then as well, you know, maybe taking it back a higher step because, you know, maybe I'm not in the place where I'm trying to decide, is it time to leave? But, you know, part of navigating a job market is also navigating a career and trying to understand what's the right next path for me or what's the right next step to get to the next level of where I think I should be in my career. How would you kind of apply an agile mindset to that kind of a process?

Mark Kilby (22:44)
So I will say, since I started with extreme programming, I'll bring in another concept, the spike. How do you set up an experiment where you can explore, is this possible or not? So let's say you're an individual contributor and you're wondering, should I take on a management?

Brian (22:51)
Okay.

Mark Kilby (23:04)
How can you experiment with that? So are you a member of any volunteer organizations? Can you lead an effort and see what that looks like to coordinate people? To actually maybe plan a budget to get some event going? What would that look like for you? What does it look like when not everybody's cooperating? Because when you deal with volunteer teams, it gets way more interesting than it works sometimes. Because you're really trying to appeal to their motivation. You can't fire them if they're a volunteer usually. So if you look for how can I experiment with what's next? And is there some way I can lean into some of the same activities? And then when I go and apply for that management position, say, yeah, I've run some of these things at my church or at this community center, and I've organized this, I've set the budgets for that. So you're already demonstrating some of the possibilities. You're trying to decide, this something that I enjoy, that I will benefit from, that I can lean into that next phase of my career?

Brian (24:12)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's really great. Well, this topic is, I think, so topical for a lot of people and, well, just about everyone. Because we're all at some stage of our career, and we're all at some stage of our relationship with the place we're at at the moment. I think we all have to be aware. I think we have to keep our eyes open and ears open. And like you said, try to find those sources of data that can clue me in as to what my situation is and maybe what I need to be prepared for. Is the hurricane coming my way or has it turned?

Mark Kilby (24:44)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Brian (24:48)
Before I let you go though, I do want to take just a second here before we wrap things up. Because I mentioned your book earlier, the book From Chaos to Successful Distributed Agile Teams. And I know you've done lots of talks and research on distributed agile teams far before COVID happened. So I guess I'll ask you what What do you think has changed today in the years since COVID, when things now things have started to settle a little bit more? How has the nature of distributed teams shifted in just the past few years?

Mark Kilby (25:25)
Well, I think we're seeing some of those shifts even in the last couple months with the call away from hybrid to fully back in the office. We've seen it with Amazon, we saw it with Dell, we're seeing it with others. So I think we're seeing the companies and the management that was looking at what's next, what's possible, and those that are like, no, we like things the way they work. I assume that we're going to see many existing hybrid setups go away. I see, I think there's very few that are going to survive. There have been some other companies that have gone fully remote, but I think we're going to see a lot more of return fully to the office because it's really hard to live in both spaces at once to be in the office and be remote. It's, it's just too difficult. We probably didn't amplify that enough in the book. That's the one thing that Johanna and I, we've talked many times about updating the book and it's like, no, not yet. It's not quite time. Let's let this phase pass. But I think we're going to see things go back to almost 2018 where there's some companies that are doing well remote. And it's not just startups because there's companies, thousand, 2000 employees that are functioning well, fully remote, but it takes a different mindset.

Brian (26:29)
Yeah.

Mark Kilby (26:49)
around how do you connect, do you keep people engaged, how do you keep them motivated. So all those things that we were all forced to answer during the pandemic, some of these companies have been answering that a little bit more, I would say thoughtfully rather than being forced to answer them.

Brian (27:09)
That's a nice way to look at it. Yeah, I agree with that. Well, mean, so much road has passed our tires from when you guys started that. I mean, you wrote that prior to COVID, right? Yeah. Yeah, talk about a great timing. mean, you guys were really visionary looking ahead there. I'm sure there's no way you could have known there was going to be a massive pandemic, but yeah.

Mark Kilby (27:20)
Yeah, yeah, it came out late 2018. No, no.

Brian (27:32)
It was very timely when that happened to have that knowledge available for folks.

Mark Kilby (27:36)
Yeah, were, well, I want to add, we were never in the mindset that every organization should go remote. That was never ever our intention. But for those who wanted to go remote, that's what that book was for.

Brian (27:44)
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And you know, I know that's not our, not really what we, we focused on the, the podcast here, but I did want to just kind of dip into that a little bit for folks, just in case that is a topic that's of interest to anyone here listening as well. If you're really looking for information in that area, strongly encourage that book for, for you again, from chaos to successful distributed agile teams. And we'll put a link to it in the show notes so people can find it so they can, you know, find your work and. to follow up and any last thoughts here before we close it out?

Mark Kilby (28:26)
Yeah, so I would say whatever you're struggling with, step back from that. I don't care if it's remote work. I don't care if it's a career challenge, but step back and look at what are the patterns that you're seeing and how can you inspect and adapt for those patterns. That's an agile mindset.

Brian (28:47)
I love that. Yeah, it tends to follow that if we put to practice these things we're teaching, you know, and talking about and trying to do in our organizations now and kind of apply that to other areas of our life that, you know, we're going to see similar results. So, I really appreciate you coming on. this has been a great conversation. And, and, as I said, I know, Mark, there's going to be lots of people listening who are just going to eat this up because, you know, if you're in that position, You know, you're looking for any kind of help that you can get. So I hope this is really helpful to folks and I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge in this area.

Mark Kilby (29:22)
Thanks, Brian, for having me on.

Brian (29:25)
Absolutely.

What does it take to be an effective Scrum Master? In this episode, Brian Milner and Gary K. Evans, author of The Effective Scrum Master, explore the nuanced role of Scrum Masters, the importance of people skills, and the shift from efficiency to effectiveness.

Overview

Join Brian Milner as he chats with Agile coach and author Gary K. Evans about the essential qualities of an effective Scrum Master. From fostering self-organizing teams to balancing proactive leadership with people-centered strategies, this conversation unpacks the skills and mindsets needed to thrive in the role.

Whether you’re new to Scrum or a seasoned pro, this episode offers fresh perspectives and practical advice for taking your Agile expertise to the next level.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Gary K. Evans
The Effective Scrum Master: Advancing Your Craft by Gary K Evans  
Join the Agile Mentors Community
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Gary K. Evans is a seasoned Agile Coach and author of The Effective Scrum Master, with over 30 years of experience transforming Fortune 100 and 500 companies through Lean-Agile practices. Known for his expertise in building high-performing teams and training over 15,000 professionals, Gary brings a unique focus on people-centered solutions to complex organizational challenges.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back and it's another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. We're getting towards the end of the year. I am here with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today I have a very special guest with me, Mr. Gary K. Evans is with us. Welcome in, Gary.

Gary (00:17)
Thank you, Brian. It's great to be here.

Brian (00:19)
Very glad to have Gary with us. Gary is an agile coach. He's a lean consultant. He owns his own company called Evanetics, but he is also the author of a newly published book that came out this summer. It's called The Effective Scrum Master. And it really is a comprehensive guide. It's a really interesting read. So I thought we'd have him on to talk to us about. what that means, an effective scrum master. So scrum master is this episode, I think it's gonna be really a special one for you. So Gary, let's start with that question. When you say an effective scrum master, what is an effective scrum master?

Gary (00:56)
In my experience, I've worked with a lot of Scrum Masters who go through the motions, they understand the events, they focus on how to run these Scrum events. But the teams flounder and they struggle with what should I do next? How do I anticipate things? And the Scrum Masters themselves often get very frustrated. One of the complaints that I hear, especially from early to mid-career Scrum Masters is I have this anxiety. How do I know that my team is operating as efficient, as efficiently and effectively as they can because they focus so much on efficiency. So this idea of effectiveness really is much more important. In fact, John Kern, one of the co-authors of the Agile Manifesto, who wrote the foreword for my book, he focused in on that word effective because we spend so much of our energies trying to be efficient. that we aren't accomplishing what we need to do, which is to build self-organizing, mature teams. And that's really the focus of my book.

Brian (02:01)
That's an awesome distinction, I think, because I like that a lot. There's a conversation that I will have sometimes in class about how that drive or search for trying to be not effective, sorry, what was the other word that you used? Efficient, sorry, sorry, just slipped my mind, ADHD. But the efficient kind of quotient there I think is...

Gary (02:18)
Efficient.

Brian (02:27)
something that in business in the business world today is a highly visible term. It's something that everyone seems to think is needed. But, you know, that really dates back to sort of the assembly line and efficiency experts that would stand behind you with a stop clock and try to get you to do something, you know, point two seconds faster so that it would total up to, you know, more productivity over the course of the day. But that's not the kind of work we do.

Gary (02:56)
I love the fact that you've mentioned that that was really the Frederick Winslow Taylor scientific management approach. And it was very much based on this idea of efficiency. But I have seen so many teams and as an agile coach, I've had multiple experiences of teams that are very, very efficient at going in the wrong direction entirely. They've lost their focus on true north. They don't understand what it is they're actually supposed to do. They think that the Scrum Guide, 14 pages in the Scrum Guide, is their Bible. And that's all that they need to know. And nothing could be further from the truth.

Brian (03:37)
Yeah. Yeah. And to me that, you're talking about efficiency versus effectiveness. You know, if we were a company that was trying to create a new drug to cure some disease, you know, I want effective. I don't want efficient. I don't want someone, I don't want to produce a million pills that don't work. I want to produce, you I'd rather produce one that works, you know.

Gary (03:59)
Exactly.

Brian (04:05)
And that seems to be kind of something that I think a lot of teams are missing today.

Gary (04:09)
It does indeed.

Brian (04:10)
Well, good. I like that distinction. I think that's a good distinction and that's a good place for us to start to think about this role as being kind of more effective. I think that they're sort of, I don't know, I'm kind of curious what your take is on this. Is it a marketing problem? Is it an education problem? Why is there so much confusion, I think, about what a scrum master, what a good scrum master is?

Gary (04:41)
That's a really deep and broad question. Part of it is that in the beginning, when Scrum was introduced into the community and was just beginning to become known, there were two attributes of Scrum Masters that were repeated again and again and again. That was you became a servant leader for the team and you removed impediments.

Brian (04:44)
Just a light casual one here.

Gary (05:09)
Unfortunately, most people stopped at that point. And they didn't realize that this, the Scrum Master role, and I'll admit, I take a very expansive view of the Scrum Master role because I've been doing this since 1993, basically, 1994. And I've learned through making lots and lots of mistakes. And the idea that All we have to do is be a servant. Well, what does that mean to be a servant leader? Nobody ever really defined it. I actually wrote an essay a number of years ago on what it meant to not be a servant leader so that I could understand by contradiction what it was that I should be doing. I called it the top 10 scrum master crimes. And really, a lot of them really had to do with crimes because it's very easy for a scrum master to start to merge into making decisions for the team that the scrum master should not be making. Now, there are times when a scrum master should direct the team, should make decisions for the team if the team is not qualified to make certain decisions because they're just too new. But this idea of being a certain leader There's so much more to that. In my expansive view of the Scrum Master role, it is not a process role first. It's a people role. And to be an effective Scrum Master, you have to be an effective people person. I've worked with so many teams and coached Scrum Masters. Scrum Masters just did not like people. They weren't people persons. And the teams responded accordingly. So. A lot of the coaching that I do with my Scrum Masters is you've got to reach deep. You've got to be able to get into people's lives rather than hold them off, you know. And so a lot of it has to do with that.

Brian (07:10)
I love that. I wholeheartedly concur with that. I've talked on this podcast a little bit about how it seems like we've lost the focus of that first line of the Agile Manifesto, individuals and interactions over process and tools. And I mentioned when I go to Agile conferences sometimes, I feel like the majority of the talks that I see and hear are process and tools talks rather than know, individuals and interactions talks. And I can't agree more. I think that's really a focus for us as Scrum Masters is the individuals and interactions portion, the people portion. You know, our teams are made up of people and if we're not good with helping understand how people work together, we're kind of really missing the value of what it is we deliver to the teams, I think.

Gary (08:04)
And Brian, the people are all different. And to have a one size fits all because the scrum guy says do X, and Z. Well, that'll work for some people, but it will not work for others. And it may even build resentment within the team because they feel that they're being treated unfairly. The focus, the theme of my book and the reason I wrote the book.

Brian (08:06)
Right, exactly.

Gary (08:30)
is that I had seen so many teams that were floundering under Scrum Masters who really didn't understand their own role. And I came up from my experience, I defined four different categories that helped to elaborate what the Scrum Master should be if they want to be effective. And I labeled those as Sherpa, Shepherd, Sheepdog, and Diagnostician. I couldn't really think of a word. I started with an S for diagnosticians. But I have a strong medical background, so diagnostician really helped because the sherpa is the expert. And to be an effective scrum master, you have to be an expert, not at scrum, but at agile. We really want, I want my scrum masters to be agile masters. And as a coach, I'm constantly pushing them. How are you improving your craft? And what is involved in that craft? So you've got to be an expert.

Brian (08:58)
Hahaha.

Gary (09:26)
Now for a new scrum master, that's a contradiction in terms. You can't be an expert if you are just at the beginning of the journey. But there are things that you can do. And I discussed this. In order to from exposure, you can gain experience. And from experience, you can generate expertise. And so that's the first one. If ultimately you need to be a master of Agile. Secondly, a Sherpa and then a... a Sherpa and then a Shepherd, you have to be able to guide the team. And you can't guide somebody if you haven't been through that path before. So this is where the issue of longevity, education, and just exposure and experience with different teams on different projects. This is where the maturity comes and you start to develop a depth of understanding. But then there's the hardest part, the hardest persona of the scrum master is the sheepdog. This is where you are the protector of the team. And so many scrum masters fold in this area because a threat will come either from management or from within the team or somebody outside the team like a product owner. And the scrum master doesn't understand how to protect his or her own team. I'll share a little war story with you that is in the book. I had a product owner who one morning came in and just started ripping through several of my team members. I don't know what happened at that point. I stepped between him and the team and I said, do not take another step forward. I was ready to defend my team physically. It didn't come to that. And later I learned the reason for why he was so upset. But if you're going to be a sheepdog and protect your team, it may require personal sacrifice. It may require professional sacrifice. And this is the area where so many scrum masters, they can't deal with that part because they don't have that confidence. So you've got the Sherpa who's the expert, the shepherd who is the guide. The sheepdog who's the protector and finally the diagnostician who is the healer. Things are going to go awry and you have to have a way of diagnosing what the root cause of the problem is. And this is where the issue of metrics and understanding your team members, building a rapport with your team members that quite often is extremely intimate. I have had team members, I have a series of questions I ask all my team members so that I understand their background and such and also things that I need to be aware of. And I will ask them, do you have any medical issues or other accommodations that we might need to consider for you? This is an issue of respect so that we don't put somebody in an uncomfortable situation. It's a strictly private conversation. I've had people share with me that they have a drug problem. that they're caring for an ailing parent, that they're going through a divorce, all kinds of different issues that come out. And we work out special signals so that if they're having an episode someday, they just give me that signal. And I know that I need to either give them space or give them some special consideration. This is what I mean by the people issue. You've got to get to the point where you allow people's lives to splash onto you and you get wet with their issues. And yet you still have to maintain your autonomy and separation in order to work with the whole team together. The Scrum Master role is extremely complex from my perspective because it involves people, as you say, individuals and their interactions. That's where we have to start.

Brian (13:33)
I agree. And that's a great call out to say, to talk about there, just the idea that, you these are, these are individuals, not, they're not robots, you know, like they're not AIs yet. These are human beings and they have lives outside of work. They have things that affect them. And if they're going through a divorce, like you said, then you think that might affect their work life? Well, of course it will. Cause they're a human, right? And that's gonna...

Gary (13:43)
Right. Yes.

Brian (13:57)
that's going to affect their, their mood that day. That's going to affect, you know, how productive they are. It's going to affect lots of things. And, and, you know, we, we've talked here on the podcast a little bit about making accommodations for people with different, neurodivergent traits like ADHD or, autism or other things like that. And, know, I've always loved the idea of, know, putting people in the best position to be successful, you know, trying to understand what is. unique about them, strengths and weaknesses, so that you can help them to be put in a position that they can shine, right? They can really contribute in their own unique way. And we have to allow for both those strengths and weaknesses. We have to help them with the weaknesses. We have to put them in a position to share their strengths.

Gary (14:49)
And this leads to a slightly different topic if I can move up a little bit. The scrum master role is an endangered species right now. And there's a reason for that. There's several reasons for that. One of which is what we've been talking about. So many scrum masters are not people persons. And as a result, the teams are not accomplishing what the organization needs. And therefore the scrum master is regarded as overhead.

Brian (14:52)
Yeah, please, please, please. Hmm, yeah.

Gary (15:19)
as ineffective. And frankly, that's correct. There are currently, if you look at the Scrum Alliance and Scrum.org, I got the figures from these companies as of the beginning of this year, there are about two million Scrum Masters in the world right They're not all equally effective, Many of them are PSN1s from Scrum.org and there are like 625,000 of those, that type of thing. And then you get 39,000 PSN2s and then you get a thousand or so PSN3s. You can see the drop off there, just huge drop off. And the certification issues lead people to think that they're a Scrum master. Scrum two days or? An online examination doesn't prepare you. It simply doesn't. We've not done a good job of helping people understand through these major certification roles. that this is a starting point, but it's not going to make you effective. And part of it is it's become commoditized. And so we have this issue of lots and lots of scrummasters, most of whom really are not people persons and most of whom don't understand how to deal with a team and build a team rather than just an assembly of individuals. I've taken over teams that have been floundering. I've done this multiple times. And on day one, it's a series of isolated individuals. That's the best that they could have. Because there was no cohesion that could be found. And that always takes me a lot of effort and a lot of time to figure out how can I find cohesion within the team. So it's exhausting. The Scrum Master rule is really exhausting at times. And if someone's not tired at the end of the day, they're not doing it right.

Brian (17:22)
Yeah, I really am in alignment with what you're saying here. And I've thought about this issue a lot as well, and just the idea that we seem to find ourselves in a situation where, as you said, there's a lot of people who have that certification. And as someone who gives people certifications, I have to take my own part in that. I have to accept my own role and what that plays in it. But I think that you're right to... The training is necessary, right? You have to understand the basics. You have to understand these things before you can do anything else. However, I think that the disservice that the industry has done is to make this proclamation that if someone is certified, that they are ready to lead. And that really is what a Scrum Master is, is a leader in the organization. They're a leader for the Scrum process in the organization. And that's just...

Gary (17:55)
Yes. Yes.

Brian (18:23)
not true, right? It just takes more ongoing mentoring and coaching for that person to get to a place where they are really a, you know, what we would call a change agent, right? They are there to, you I always like to use the term infect the organization. They're there to spread and infect this mindset, this philosophy. And if we don't understand it ourselves, if we're not really living that philosophy, If we want our team to be experimentation based and we don't experiment ourself and we don't kind of demonstrate to them what it looks like to experiment, to try things, to fail, to figure out why that didn't work and then apply a new change and say, let's try something different. If we don't demonstrate that, not just tell them, but demonstrate it, they're never going to get that. They're going to stay, as you said, a collection of individuals. And I think that's, to me, that seems to be one of the big issues today with Scrum Masters and with Scrum in general is just that we have, you know, in opposition to your book, ineffective Scrum Masters that aren't really helping people see what Scrum should be.

Gary (19:41)
Exactly. And you've touched on what I call the four E's, which are exposure, experience, expertise, all built through experimentation. And you use that word to experiment. We need to experiment. But experimentation takes courage. Now that is one of the Scrum values. But when you get a young person or a new Scrum master who's in a role in an organization that may have certain, let's say, unsafe environment and cultural factors. It's very difficult for most people to build that courage to say, we've got to change this and become agents of change. Now, obviously they can, they should be diplomatic. They should be respectful, but they should also be persistent. But being able to see that requires a vision. You have to be able to be able to look around and see where are the big problems that we have? Why should I rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic if the ship is sinking?

Brian (20:41)
you

Gary (20:45)
And so having that vision, again, comes from maturity. And the Scrum Masters that I work with, I push them pretty hard because I want them to grow. And every one of them has thanked me. But they didn't thank me during while it was happening.

Brian (21:06)
Ha Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that. mean, we, you know, one of the analogies I'll use there is like, we, a lot of us that have gone through the process and become a trainer will say it was hell while we went through it, but we look back on it and think that was necessary. We needed to go through that. now that we've gone through it we're on the other side, that was a necessary component of becoming an effective trainer was really seeing it up close and personal and seeing how other people do it. So I completely get that.

Gary (21:31)
Exactly.

Brian (21:36)
I want to ask you a question here that I know this is a loaded question. I get this question all the time. But I thought it might be interesting to hear your perspective on this from the effective Scrum Master perspective. People constantly ask, well, what does a Scrum Master do all day? Because when you look at the Scrum Guide and you look at the things that we have as responsibilities, You know, the two main responsibilities we have that are ongoing is to make sure events happen and make sure that the time boxes are kept according to the Scrum Guide. But I try to tell people there's a lot that goes on between those events. It's not just about the events, right? There's a lot that we do. just help our audience. For those people who are listening and don't really have a clear picture of what a Scrum Master does, just give us some samples of what you see as activity that effective Scrum Masters would take on a regular basis.

Gary (22:30)
What an interesting qualitative question.

Brian (22:33)
Ha ha ha.

Gary (22:34)
And I say qualitative on purpose. What does a scrum master do? What a scrum master should do is listen, listen a lot, observe, even if you're remote and virtual. You should be monitoring the Slack channel. You should be having video sessions. You should be attending team discussions whenever you can, but not only to listen, but to be the last one to speak. This is a big issue. So a scrum master often is considered to be doing nothing. But what the scrum master is doing is listening, watching, being the last to speak so that he or she does not taint the conversation among the team members. And it's very easy for that to happen. They should be compiling. team metrics. And I have a very lengthy section in the book on metrics, not only velocity and burn down charts and that type of thing, but a number of other other metrics that I've developed over the years for my own teams. So that the Scrum Master and the team can understand their own performance. They should be training, obviously, as a Sherpa, as an expert. They should be conveying knowledge to the team and they should be teaching every time they're talking to somebody, they should be teaching someone. So it's not a prescribed set of activities in my estimation of what a scrum master does. And I'm going to I'm going to use an analogy here. And it's going to it's going to offend some people because they're going to say, that's a terrible analogy. Well, it's actually a good analogy if you take it as that. The scrum master is like a parent. and needs to nurture the family. How does a parent, what does a parent do? They listen, they observe, they teach, they guide. Sometimes they have to protect, sometimes they have to discipline. And these are all skills that make for a good effective scrum master. So as I say, it's a qualitative issue. But a person who cannot parent well, I'm not saying the team are children, I'm saying they're your family. You need to parent your family. And you need to, as an experienced person who hopefully has a bit more experience and exposure and wisdom. and has better insight into how the world works, even the world of the organization, the Scrum Master has to be able to convey that on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour basis. It is not a part-time job. It is a full-time, exhausting, boots-on-the-ground position that many people just cannot fill. It's sad, but not everybody can do everything. Coming back to the certifications again, job ads always want to know you need to have a CSM or a PSM. You need to have an ACSM, type of thing, advanced certified Scrum Master. These are proxies that companies use because they don't know what a Scrum Master does. They don't know how to qualify it. So they try to quantify it through a certification. And what they have are two million Scrum Masters. who are certified in the world. How many of those are really good? Not all of

Brian (26:06)
Right.

Gary (26:07)
So the reason that I dwell on this a little bit, Brian, is my book is there to help people understand. not only the limits, but the expanse of what they should do. And there are limits to what a scrum master should do, but there's also an expansive view of they need to do more than just be a servant leader and remove impediments. Those are important. That's not the end of it.

Brian (26:33)
I agree. It's kind of interesting because it's a delicate balance, right? Because it's sort of like, you know, there's not a recipe. There's not a clear, hey, here's the 10 things that you do every day. And just when you come in the morning, check this list off and do these things, right? There's not that. But I think that the other mistake that I see some Scrum Masters make sometimes is that they treat it as being a purely reactive kind of position where I'm going to sit back and wait for things. And then when something happens, then I'll, then I'll jump in and I'll do something based on what someone else has done, which I think is a mistake as well. We we're proactive. We were very proactive to, to make an impact and make a difference. And when we recognize something's needed, we, got to jump in there. We got to get in there and do something about it when it's needed. you wouldn't want to have a coach of a team who set back and just, you know,

Gary (27:26)
It is.

Brian (27:30)
waited for someone to come to them and ask them for questions. There's no strategy. There's no paying attention to fundamentals. All those things would kind of go out the window if that coach isn't more proactive with his approach towards his or her approach toward the team.

Gary (27:45)
Exactly. That's a wonderful analogy because I was a soccer coach as well. I'm a soccer player as well. And when I'm coaching youth or that type of thing, I have to teach them how to use this sideline, the touch line in order as a virtual defender. need to have been on the field to know how to teach them how to operate on the field. And if I can't get involved with them, if I just wait until they make a mistake, they're going to make a lot of mistakes.

Brian (27:48)
Hmm.

Gary (28:14)
And you've touched on this idea of the passive scrum master. Scrum master is not a passive role. I had a product owner, one of the best that I've ever worked with in my career. We were having a very heated conversation one day, as we often did. And he said, Evans, you're an activist scrum master. And I had never heard that before. And I reflected on it a little bit and I said, Chuck, you're right, I am. But not everybody has that kind of personality. So each scrimmaster has to identify where they may need to improve, maybe some of their assertiveness, some others need to learn how to hold back. It's a learning curve. It's a learning 24-hour-a-day learning session. We're all different. teams are different, the Scrum Masters are different. And as we get more experience and develop more expertise, we handle things differently as a result of that growth. And my role as a coach is to grow the Scrum Masters, to grow the teams. And I've loved it because I love working with people. So you get to work with people, you get to solve problems and you get to see tangible results in people's careers. What more could you ask?

Brian (29:36)
Right, right. I'm with you. I'm right there with you. I can't agree more. Well, this has been a great discussion. just want to, you know, we mentioned already your book is called The Effective Scrum Master. We're to put links in our show notes to that if people want to go and find that and just, but you can find it on Amazon. Gary K. Evans, The Effective Scrum Master. Gary, how can people find out if they want to get in touch with you or find out more about your work, how can they get in touch with

Gary (29:37)
Thank Well, appreciate that. I am currently putting up, there is a, we have a website. It's called effectivescrummaster.com. I'll repeat that. Effectivescrummaster.com. There's a sign up link there. It's the page is just under construction at this point. It's live, but people can go up and they can enter an email to be notified when we start to make changes. There'll be some free information there, some resources that they can download. We've got a plan on how we're going to roll this out, but that's just beginning. And so I hope that people will go and visit that and hopefully we'll be able to develop a relationship and they'll be able to reach out to me through that website. Again, effectivescrummaster.com.

Brian (30:51)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Gary, for making the time. It's been a really great conversation and I really appreciate you making the time to come on the show.

Gary (30:59)
Brian, this has been my privilege and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Get ready for a special Thanksgiving episode where Brian Milner shares what he’s most grateful for this year and why a little reflection on gratitude can go a long way. It’s time to embrace the positives and celebrate the connections that keep us growing.

Overview

In this special Thanksgiving episode, Brian Milner takes a heartfelt pause to reflect on gratitude, expressing thanks for his listeners, cherished friendships, and the fresh ideas that continue to shape his Agile journey. He invites everyone to join him in acknowledging the positive aspects of their lives and to practice gratitude, especially during difficult times.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Join the Agile Mentors Community

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input.

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Hey there, Agile Mentors. Yes, I'm not saying my typical opening because this isn't a typical episode. I don't want to make anything cheesy here. It is Thanksgiving. It is around Thanksgiving time here in the US. And traditionally, I've given a little message around this time that's just me. And I won't take a lot of your time here today.

But I do want to just kind of focus in a little bit on that concept of being thankful because I do think it's important for us to try to understand and be thankful for the things that we have in our life that maybe we don't always take time to kind of recognize. And this year has been a very kind of challenging years in some ways for our industry, for the profession, but it's also been exciting in some ways as well.

And rather than dwelling on just things that would be kind of hypercritical or negative, I think it's important for us to maybe focus in on some of those positive things. So I'll just give you a quick hit list here of things that I, I just wanted to think about about three specific things that I thought were things that I am extremely thankful for this year at this point in my life. and in my interactions with people.

The first and foremost, I'm not saving the best for last, I'm doing the best first. That's you, the listeners of this podcast. I can't thank you enough for tuning in and listening. You put out a podcast like this, you have no idea. It's kind of like you're shouting into the void. And you have no idea who is listening and who is not listening, what their desires are, what they want from you. That's why I beg you all the time for feedback, because I just want to know how it can be better for you.

I just want to know how I can make this a better use of your time. But I've had the pleasure this year of getting to go to several conferences and going to those conferences is always my chance to kind of talk to face to face some of the people who listen to this podcast. And it is such a thrill. it, just excites me to no end when I'm at those conferences and someone comes up to me and says, Hey, I listened to the podcast. I really liked the stuff you put out there on that. And it really makes an impact for me. Or, you know, I'll hear someone come up and say, Hey, I just found it. I started listening from episode one. I'm now on episode 10 and, it's all been really, really impactful. And I just really appreciate, what you're doing there. So I, I just want to say a huge thanks to you. I mean, we couldn't keep doing this if we didn't have listeners. So I just, I really appreciate you. I appreciate that you're on this journey with me.

We're kind of both learning together as we go through this because every episode I learn something from these guests that come through. And I know that you are as well. You're learning things as we go through these topics. So I just want to thank you for being along the ride with me. And especially thank you for those who have come up and introduced yourself and said hello to me over this past year. Really, really appreciate getting to meet you and learn a little bit more about you, about the things that you want and the things that you need. So thank you for being listeners. Thank you for being, for the people who send feedback and email us over our podcast at mountaingoatsoftware.com address. I really, really appreciate you. because we wouldn't be here without you.

Another thing I thought I was really, really thankful for this year, the kind of in line with that is just new friends. We do a lot of this stuff, or least I should say, I do a lot of this stuff as a trainer out of my home office and spend several days with people in classes. And I make a lot of new friends through those classes just from people that I connect with and people who stay in contact with me. So I'm highly appreciative of those people that are kind of still on my radar and people that have come through classes with me and have stayed connected with me. But I'm appreciative of the people that I've gotten to spend some quality time with at the different conferences I've been at this year.

There's been several conversations that I've had with people that have been so impactful to me, just really, really personal, sometimes emotional conversations I've had with individuals. And it just reminds you that it's human beings that are at the core of this, It's people. getting to know and understand people, I think, one of the joys of getting to do this kind of work. That you get to meet new people and get to hear their stories and learn how they see the world. So I'm really thankful for the new friends that have come into my life. through the course of the last year. And then I'm really thankful for new ideas.

The guests that have come through here have, you know, many of them have kind of given me new ways of seeing things, kind of seeing things through a new lens that has challenged me. And I'm always really grateful. when an assumption or an opinion I have is challenged, I don't think of that as being kind of an aggressive thing towards me. I think of it as, well, that's kind of pushing my boundaries a little bit. I thought that I knew and understood this in this way, but now someone's challenged me to look at this from a different perspective. I look at this from a different viewpoint. And I am just enormously thankful that as I've... grown in this profession as I've been doing this now for, gosh, I've been a software developer maybe 25 years now, I'm that old. But given that, there are still plenty of concepts and ideas that they're never ending.

There's never an end to the things that would challenge my assumptions or my beliefs about things and get me to really re-examine them. That doesn't mean I'm going to change all of them. But I tell people who come through the class, I don't have any problem with you challenging an idea. The idea isn't me. The idea is an idea. And I change ideas all the time. If I get presented with better information, if there's new data that comes out that says, hey, know that way we've been thinking about this, that's actually wrong, I embrace that. I welcome that. Because it's the reality. Right?

And I don't want to continue down the road that's false. So I just really, really appreciate that idea that these ideas are not stale. These aren't ideas, aren't things that would just go by the wayside. These are things that constantly challenge us and get us to look at things in a new light. This isn't an awards acceptance speech, so I'm not going to go through the list of specific people.

There's lots of people that I would thank and they know who they are. There's lots of people who work really hard for this podcast to work. And people like Mike Cohn who have mentored me and helped me to understand things that I would never have if I had not come in contact with them. So just really, really am thankful for all of those things.

And I encourage you, it may sound like a silly thing, But take five minutes, take 10 minutes and just sit down with a blank piece of paper and just write out, if you were gonna make your top 10, right? What are the top 10 things that this year that you're thankful for, right? You don't have to go through, you know, just the stereotypical things that you might put down, but you know, if you were to think back over the past year, what would be the things that you are most thankful for over the past year?

And as I said, I know it's been a hard year for a lot of people. But I think that when we are able to stop and do that and really understand, hey, here are the things that really have gone well. Here are the things I'm really thankful that I encountered or that happened to me in this last year. It really can have a dramatic impact on your outlook and how you see things and really what you look for moving forward, what you focus on moving forward.

So I just encourage you, it's a week for that. It's a time when we do that here in the US especially, but if you're somewhere international and maybe you have a Thanksgiving on a different part of the year or a different day, or maybe you don't have one in your country, I encourage you to just take time out to do it. I think you'll appreciate it. I think it'll make an impact for you. So that's really all I got for you today.

As I said, short little message, kind of traditional for us to do a little brief little Thanksgiving message here. again, I just want to thank you. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for being with me on this journey, especially this past year.

And I'm excited. I can't wait to see where we go from this point forward. Who knows, right? We might do changes. We might try some new things. All kind of depends on what you guys want to see in here. So thank you so much for where we've come so far. And we'll call it. So. We won't do any of typical outro stuff I normally do, but you know what I normally say. So just kind of think that in your head.

Thanks, everybody. I really appreciate you listening to this special message. And next week, we'll be back with just a regular episode. You're going to really enjoy it. So talk to you next time on another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.

Curious if your product team is caught in common traps that limit success? Join Brian and David Pereira as they explore how to simplify workflows, make smarter bets with prioritization, and shift from output-driven thinking to delivering real value.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, host Brian Milner chats with David Pereira, author of Untrapping Product Teams. Together, they dive into the common traps product teams face, the differences between project and product management, and practical strategies for prioritization.

David shares insights from his book, offering advice on building healthier backlogs, creating adaptable roadmaps, and moving beyond a feature-obsessed mindset to focus on delivering true value.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

David Pereira
Untrapping Product Teams by David Pereira
Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training
Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast

Want to get involved?

This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. 

• Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one.
• Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected]

This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

David Pereira is a seasoned Product Leader with over 15 years of experience guiding Agile teams to deliver real value faster. As CEO of omoqo GmbH and a top writer on product management, David is passionate about helping teams overcome challenges, unlock their potential, and simplify their workflows to drive meaningful outcomes.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome back Agile Mentors. We are here for yet another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have Mr. David Pereira with us. Welcome in, David.

David Pereira (00:12)
Let's be here.

Brian (00:14)
Very excited to have David here with us. David is the author of a new book called, Untrapping Product Teams. So product owners, this is going to be a discussion that I know you're going to find very interesting. We're going to be talking about a lot of things that have to do with product teams and sort of the ins and outs of working with your products. So David, just for starters, what inspired you to write the book? What was the main problem you were trying to address when you sat down to write this?

David Pereira (00:42)
pain. I have worked as a product person for many companies throughout the years, different countries, different sides. And one thing that I realized is that there many things going wrong. And sometimes we just don't know that it's wrong and it hurts. Then when we realize the question is, what are we going to do about it? So I started writing about untrapped products. From this perspective,

Brian (00:43)
Ha ha ha ha.

David Pereira (01:12)
of there's something wrong, we might not see, but let's start from this and then maybe we can transform how we work for the better.

Brian (01:23)
Awesome. Yeah, that's a great take on it. Cause I agree. There's certain times when as a product owner, know I've, you you're kind of chugging along and things are going okay, but then something happens and it's sort of like, wow, this is painful. I don't know where it's, I can't put my finger on what's going wrong, but there's something happening here. And you you try to push through it and just get past it sometimes. And it's, that's not always the best strategy. I know you talk about there being sort of these dangerous traps that are kind of typical traps that product people fall into. Can you share any of those with us? What are some of the dangerous traps you identified here?

David Pereira (02:01)
Sure, there's the classic one called the gigantic backlog. So the team looked at it and we're talking about product owners, but sometimes product owners get demoted to backlog owners and they don't even notice that. So that's one of the most classic traps, but there's also another I call the calendar driven framework. You may think you work with agile, but then you realize that you only do what is in your calendar. So that digitates what you're doing and so on. And you fall prey to what I call as a meeting marathon.

Brian (02:38)
Yeah. I want to go back a little bit to your, to the big backlog kind of, idea there, because I, I know that's a issue I've talked with people about in class a lot. And, I just want to get your take on this. Cause I, one of the things, you know, we'll, we'll discuss in classes sometimes just the idea of having too big of a backlog and, and kind of wrestling with it and trying to get it in shape. But the question always comes up, you know, you what's the. the right number. We ask a question in class and say, how big is your backlog? And you'll see different reactions from people. Some people, less than 50, other people 250, other people 1,000 plus items. Is there a number? Is there a number that beyond which it's all of sudden now too big?

David Pereira (03:24)
Yeah, for sure. So for me, first is understanding what is the backlog about. It is a vehicle to drive whether when you look at the backlog, should be able to tell a story. You should know where you're heading to. But when you look there, if you see a 60 year old Christmas wishlist that has everything in but you cannot connect anything, that's when it starts smelling. So for me, a good backlog will have no more than I would say two, three things ahead of us. There might be some things that are directions that we will continue refine and get it better and so on. But if we would have something that takes us like six months of work to get it through, maybe we are doing project management.

Brian (04:12)
So that's an interesting distinction. if we're moving into product, how would you define that then if we're saying project management versus product management, how do you define that difference?

David Pereira (04:23)
So project management in general, we assume we know what needs to happen. So we start planning on when we do what and how long we're gonna invest in this and so on. Product management is more about starting what is value, what do we want to achieve? And then we start embracing the unknown, facing reality, learning from it. And then the backlog will emerge from our learnings. So it means we know where we want to land, but how we're gonna get there. We know where to start, but not the next 3, 4, 5 steps.

Brian (04:56)
Love that. So that gets us kind of into talking about road mapping a little bit because I know that's one of the things you talk about in your book and kind of the idea of trying to plan a little bit far in advance. So if we have a backlog, it's really more two to three sprints versus six months. Do you recommend the product owners roadmap for longer than two to three sprints or is the roadmap just a two to three sprint roadmap?

David Pereira (05:24)
Sure. So the roadmap for me, it is about a different flight level. So the backlog is the now. What are we doing right now in the next two sprints as we talked about? The roadmap, we're looking at what is the overarching goal we are pursuing. So that could be, for example, a milestone that we aim to achieve for the next two, three months. And then the backlog will march towards that. But for the roadmap, I think it's still important to have something like, what is the direction for six months that maybe we are considering. But the farther we go, the more I would say blurry it becomes. It's more like a direction and we can feel free to adapt that.

Brian (06:13)
So help me understand here, because one of the things I think that I hear a lot of questions about in class is, since 2020, the Scrum Guide has added this idea of a product goal. And we've always traditionally thought about having a vision for the product. So now we have sort of this nested nature of having a vision, a product goal. And of course, we've always had sprinkles. How do you see those things related? relating to some sort of road mapping.

David Pereira (06:45)
Let's take a company here as an example. I like looking at the SpaceX. What is the vision? The vision is something audacious, inspiring, that people can connect with. Might be very hard to achieve, but it gives us guidance. For SpaceX, would say two words, populate Mars. That's the vision. It's very far. And what would be a roadmap goal? For example, something they achieved already. It's a step to get closer to the vision. Build a reusable rocket. That's something they spent a lot of time doing, and that could be a roadmap item. Then when you go to the sprint ghost, it's just a smaller step towards that.

Brian (07:35)
Gotcha. Yeah, that's great way to put it. I like that idea and I appreciate you using kind of a real world example. I think that kind of drives it home for everybody. I think it's obviously one of the things we talk about quite a bit in Agile is that idea of that we don't have any problem with planning. Planning is a good thing. What we have a problem with is plans that are so concrete that they're inflexible. So when we... I've always thought as a product owner, when we try to create these roadmaps, the further we get out from today, the looser, the less defined it is, the more rough the idea is, and the less people should count on there being any date that's going to be met based off of that longer term horizon. Of course, there are exceptions to this. You mentioned SpaceX, mean, SpaceX has a multi-year goal. I mean, they have something that's kind of further out to the future. So I think that there are some exceptions that we probably could make in there. But I think you're right. Think about them in that steps as far as vision to product goal to sprinkle. One of the other things that I found kind of interesting in reading up and thinking about your book is you talk about the difference between coordinated and collaborative workflows. Can you define those? Tell us a little bit about what you meant by that, the difference between those two.

David Pereira (08:31)
Yeah, of course. I start with a question. When we are talking about coordinative development flow, step back and then reflect. Do you talk more about work than you do it? Or you just go and do work on it? If you feel like you are all the time talking about work, everyone is talking about it, you have so many meetings discussing and so on, but then you wonder who is doing the work, then there's a chance you are in the coordinative development flow. The collaborative development flow, it's a little bit chaotic. There are many things happening. Teams are looking at what can we do right now? What can we do next? They are adapting all the time and so on. Plans are actually means to an end. They are not reached. They point a direction. Teams may have a plan, but it's very simple. It is not a predictive thing. When you are in the coordinative development flow, things take long. For example, you may have a lot of ideas in the beginning, then that means you need to find the most promising idea, speculation. So you may use frameworks to have the best scoring and understand what is the idea most promising. Then you invest time and crafting high fidelity prototypes and so on. There's a lot of coordination back on Perf. But if you go to a collaborative, you say, all right, I have all of these ideas here. Which ideas are worth? That's the first question. Then you say, how do they meet our, for example, product vision? How do they relate to our strategy? How do they contribute to our goal? And if you don't have answers to that, you use your friend called trash bin. So you put the things in your trash bin and then you start moving forward. And you say, all right, how do I know this has desirability? It's viable from the business. How do I know we can do it? then start running experiment. And then some things you realize, actually customers don't need it, then you don't pursue. So that's why it looks like chaos because you don't know what will get to the end, because things will fall apart on the way because you learned they don't make sense. On the coordinate, you know what gets to the end. You just don't know if it's the right thing.

Brian (11:18)
That's a great point. And you're right. If we think of this from an experimental mindset, the product development game here as more experimentation, think you're right. There's going to be things that don't, the experiments that don't turn out the way we expected, just like there is in any kind of experimentation. that can be some of the most productive moments actually is when you have those experiments that turn out differently than you anticipated because that can lead you in areas that are surprising and new and have value that you might not have otherwise recognized, I think. So yeah, I love that. I think that's a great way to talk about it. It makes me think a lot about prioritization as well because I know that's a big area for us as product owners and... You know, someone sent me an article the other day that, that I share sometimes with people that's, it's a blog post that someone put out there. was like 127 different ways to prioritize your backlog. It's just, they're all methods, right? They're all the things that you probably, all of us have probably heard and, you know, things like Moscow and, and other things like that, that people are typically use, to prioritize their backlog or rice or. relative weighting or something like that. But one of the things that I find kind of interesting with that, and I want to get your take on this David, is sometimes when I will use something like relative weighting, for example, or rice, very much more of an analytical approach, right? And we're trying to try to analyze it based on several factors and see what the score comes out at the end, which one's higher than the other. but one of the interesting kind of a sideline effects that I've noticed in myself as a product owner is sometimes I'll find that I'll run that kind of a process on several features and I'll get to the end and you know, I've got three features and know, a feature, a, and C and, you know, I'll take a look at the results and look, you know, it looks like feature B is number one feature C is two and, and a is three and Sort of in my head, I kind of feel this dialogue happen where I think, huh, really B is number one. Wow. would have never thought that would have been the case. That's surprising. I can't believe B came out as number one, but maybe I answered those questions incorrectly. Maybe I should go back and change my answers in doing this analysis because that can't be right. B shouldn't be one. B should maybe be two or three. And I kind of call it the the gut instinct, you know, it's kind of that gut instinct moment where you look at the results and it feels wrong, right? And I know you talk in your book kind of about, you know, opinions without evidence and kind of the idea of, know, it made me kind of think about that scenario where sometimes you'll run it through some kind of a prioritization technique and there'll be a definitive answer, but you kind of have that instinctual moment that feels like maybe this is not right. How do you handle those moments, David? Do you have any problem overriding results or do you always take the results of some kind of a prioritization technique that you've tried to use?

David Pereira (14:44)
Mm-hmm. So prioritization is something quite interesting. What I see is many companies search for certainty. We need to ensure that we find what drives value. So we take some time analyzing that. The problem is that we start injecting a lot of speculation. We think what it's right, but we don't. What I see is prioritization is a bet. So I think about placing bets. Say, all right, so there are all of these cool ideas here. I try looking, for example, at potential. As of now, what do we know about it? How many customers would care about it? How much would they care about it? Can we deliver something of that? I say, all right, let's invest one day and see what we can learn about it. Then we can move to the next. And then we can invest maybe two days. And if we don't like what we learn, then we just stop. And if you like what we learned, then we say, let's invest another week. And then we keep going to the point we say, this looks cool. And then we can do something about it. So I say like, let's have a bias toward actions. We can face reality as fast as possible. Then we can learn what makes sense and what doesn't. And I give you a concrete example. When I started about the book, I was thinking, Does it make sense for me to write a book? How do I know that? I got invited to give a keynote. I said, I'm going to speak about something that I would write and I will see how it resonates. I gave this talk 10 times. And then what happens after each talk? Few people would come to me and say, Hey, I like this thing. I like this. I like this. And everything you didn't mention, I started questioning. And then what they like to explore. And after the 10th talk, someone said, when are you writing a book about it? said, aha, now it's coming. I said, I need you to do another experiment. I posted on LinkedIn. said, I'm writing a book. And I had in my mind, if at least 200 people show interest in that, I'm going to interview people to understand their challenge. So I did that. When I decided to write a book, I didn't write the book. I explored. where to write and so on and all of this. Because I was placing bets, small investments that give me information that I can use as evidence. And that's the same what I do with digital products. It is about learning from reality, not from a meeting room.

Brian (17:25)
I love that. Yeah. I think we've, I know that I've heard that language used quite often, the idea of making small bets or making bets on things, but it really is a revolution. And you're worried way to think about it. like your, your concept of, of thinking, is it worth a day? Right. Is it worth a day to do this? Is it worth me betting a day on, on trying to find out more information about this? is that really how you look at prioritization then is, is, is you prioritize it? Is it, is it kind of, Is it worth the effort to do what it's gonna take to do this thing and think of it that way as a bet?

David Pereira (18:01)
Yeah, in this direction, because for example, when we explore what is the potential outcome, how many users would care, how much do they care about it? I say, let's see if that is true or not. Let's start learning about it. Then we can have a better understanding of the expected result. Because the danger is when you start talking about these things, it just do a scoring, like a rise, eyes or something else. then you get false confidence. So I want to move away from the false confidence to get closer to reality because in the end of the day, we don't know what we don't know.

Brian (18:41)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point to make. I know I've run an experiment sometimes in classes where we'll have a couple of different ways of prioritization. I'll give them something complicated like relative weighting or rice. And then I'll give them something, you know, ultra simple, like stack ranking and, you know, have them compare and say how, what's the difference. I know you talking to your book about kind of how important it is to simplify the decision-making process. And so I'm just, what are some of your strategies for that, for trying to simplify that decision making process?

David Pereira (19:19)
So you need to know what is priority right now. So you can filter out things. For example, if your product is scaling, what matters most? Is it retention? Is it growth? Customer satisfaction? Which is the game you are playing? Because if you don't know the game you're playing, everything is a priority. Then you need to discuss everything. So that's the reason I like starting with what matters most. Because then you remove everything else. then you can look at, so if growth is what matters most, let's think about what will contribute to that. Then we go from this.

Brian (19:56)
Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. I think you're right. I it's the outcome that we're trying to drive, right? I mean, we're rebuilding features or we're proposing to build something so that we have this outcome. And if we're not really driving that outcome, then we're wasting our time. We're not really doing what we're trying to do. Yeah, that's a great point. I know one of the other points you talked about in your book is kind of this idea of periodically doing product health checks.

David Pereira (20:12)
Exactly.

Brian (20:23)
And that was kind of an interesting new concept for me. I not heard that really spelled out in any way. Can you help the listeners kind of understand what you mean by a product health check?

David Pereira (20:34)
For me, it's a falling. We may start doing things without challenging them. We don't know if they are good, we don't know if they are bad. We know how to do them. And then that becomes our routine, our habit. On Monday we do this, on Tuesday we do that, on Wednesday we do the other. And we keep doing, and they give some results. But the problem is, is it the right thing? So I like stepping back. and looking at a few aspects so we can say, where do we stand? And then you may uncover something that is, I'm not doing it or something that I'm doing that contributes to a bad result. I always ask teams, when was the last time you retired a feature? And sometimes I hear only crickets. And then I say, when was the last time? I say, we never retired a feature. Said, what is your definition of a good product? And some people tell me, well, a good product is the one you have all features you need. There's nothing else to add. We're not there yet. And then I asked them, can you open Google? How many features do you see in the homepage? For me a good product is the one you have nothing else to remove. It's a bit different. So when you have these health checks, you have the moment of challenging, having a different perspective. And then you have the chance of saying, I want to change. I want to do different. Then you can improve how you work.

Brian (22:10)
Yeah, that's a great way to look at it too, because you're right. we're, you know, I think about this oftentimes when I talk to people about, you know, kind of their vision or even their customers and users. And really, if you can't understand or you can't really define who it is you're targeting or what it is you're trying to achieve, we shouldn't be doing it, right? We should stop and understand those things first before we move forward. I know one of the other things that you'll you talk about in the book is kind the feature obsessed or feature focused mindset. And just kind of wondering, you what kind of practical advice could you give to different product owners, product managers that are struggling in some way with that feature focused mindset?

David Pereira (22:57)
Ask more questions. That's where I start. Whenever you come with a feature, you say, what is that for? What does it enable the user? What would be the other options? Let me give you an example. In one of the places I worked, we realized that we had trouble with signup. And then someone came with an idea. Of course we have a problem. Because, let me do this again. Of course we have a problem. Because... We have to create a login all the time. If we have social login, then it's amazing. And then we put the Google login there. And we said, with Google login, we will simplify the sign up process. Nothing happened. Sign up rate remained the same. Then I started interviewing people who came to our website, but didn't sign up. What I learned from them was, I don't understand your value proposition. And then you asked me to create a user, you're going to load me with emails. Why am I going to do that? I'm not going to do it. And then I realized that the friction was something else. The value proposition was unclear and they didn't want to give their data. So we could put whatever login method, it would not help. We started with the wrong question.

Brian (24:17)
Yeah, that's a great example. I appreciate you sharing that because I think that's a common problem I think we have in the product area is kind of we see a response or we see that something's not going the way that we thought. And I know I can have the inclination at least to jump to what I think is the reason behind it. without actually verifying that that's the reason behind it. And that's a great example, right? mean, hey, we thought if we add a sign up and do it through Google, that's going to remove friction. It'll make it easier for people to sign up and we'll get more signups. Well, not if they don't really understand what your value is and why would I come back to this site? Why do I want to get emails from you? I'm not clicking on the button to go through giving you my Google information if you haven't sold me. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point to make. Well, the only other thing I'd say is I know one of the kind of time-honored discussion topics here when we talk about this stuff is really people who focus more on the output and getting distracted by outputs versus really focusing on value. What kind of advice would you give to people who either don't really understand the difference or find themselves kind of slipping back into being more focused on output versus value.

David Pereira (25:53)
Talk about assumptions. We all assume something is gonna happen. Sometimes it's just in our subconscious. We need to bring to our conscious level. For example, we say, this feature is gonna be a success because, then come your assumption, because customers want, because customers will understand how to use it, because the business can collect value. These are assumptions. And then you can say, How can I test these assumptions before I invest time into creating the feature? Then you learn.

Brian (26:29)
Yeah, I agree. That's so important. Honestly, that's one of the biggest paradigm shifts I think I went through as a product owner is that kind of shift in understanding these things in my backlog, they're assumptions. They're not requirements. They're not things that have to happen. They are things that could possibly happen. And the idea is to determine if they're the right thing to happen or not. And if not, then we should move on. Well, this is awesome. I think the books, the topic of your book sounds really fascinating and I hope everyone goes to check that out. It's called, Untrapping Product Teams. And again, David Pereira is the author here. We're put links to all this into our show notes. So if you wanna click on that and find out more, we'll put you in the right place so you can find out more. just, I'll give you kind of a sampling here just so you kind of understand my... My own boss here, Mike Cohn, has a quote here about it that says it's his new favorite product management book. So it's just, he's got people like Marty Kagan, Martin Dalmigeon that's kind of weighed in on this. Petra Willie has given quotes about this. So there's lots of big names that have read this and given it good reviews and said this is a really important work in the product area. Really encourage you to check that out. David, I can't thank you enough. Thanks for making time to come on the show.

David Pereira (27:59)
Glad to be here.