As I’ve been saying for years – Trump isn’t the problem. He’s just a symptom of the problem. The actual problem is stupid people. And they are justifiably angry. But to think billionaires are going to solve the problem is just stupid. It’s billionaires and the politicians they control that got the U.S. into this situation in the first place.

Welcome to late stage capitalism.

Transcript

Bullshit 129

[00:00:00] Cameron: I’m just going to start this episode of the Bullshit Filter, by playing something, that I think is topical. Uh, here’s a, here’s a show we recorded eight years ago. What the fuck, America? Ah, well,So the white people put Trump in power. So as a white person, I would like to say, I’m sorry, everybody, I’m really sorry.

[00:00:28] Cameron: I mean, this guy defeated the entire political establishment of both parties in the U. S. with pretty much no money, no fun, no funding, making every possible mistake you would think it was a mistake, talking just off the cuff shit, like completely breaking every rule there is.

[00:00:56] Cameron: And not only got in, but, you know, got in by a landslide in terms of electoral college votes anyway, and it looks like he’s going to win the popular vote as well. Which he didn’t. we’re recording this one, back to us in real time now on the 8th of November, my time, 7th of November in the U. S., 2024. I’ve, I went back and listened to that show that we did in 2016 after the election. I also listened to the one that we did in 2020 after the election over the last couple of days. Um, in the 2021, you know, the, my basic idea, you know, there was a lot of jubilation. with the Democrat voters that Trump was gone.

[00:01:44] Cameron: A lot of the pollsters and a lot of the media in the U. S. were saying, that’s it. We’re never going to see him again. Even, um, I remember Tucker, we found out later on during the Dominion voting trial that Tucker Carlson was sending emails to people at Fox saying, thank fuck. We never need to talk to that idiot again.

[00:02:04] Cameron: He’s the worst.

[00:02:05] Cameron: Um, uh, but my point in the 2020 show was. 

[00:02:12] Cameron: You know, depends what happens with the trials, Trump may go to jail, he may skate, but I don’t think Trumpism, I don’t think the underlying anger is going away, and because I’ve been saying this, you know, that episode I just played, the 2016 episode, wasn’t even on the bullshit filter, because we weren’t doing the bullshit filter.

[00:02:32] Cameron: in 2016. That was, that was a special episode of The Caesar Show.

[00:02:36] Ray: Pre. Pre, 

[00:02:38] Cameron: we didn’t start The Bullshit Film until 2017, which was confusing because I went 

[00:02:43] Cameron: looking for that episode on The Bullshit 

[00:02:44] Cameron: Film and couldn’t find it. I was like, I don’t know, where where the fuck is this episode? And then I eventually realized we did it on The Caesar Show as a special edition because I just needed to talk about it. Um, 

[00:02:56] Cameron: you know, I’ve been saying this though since 2015 and going back even 

[00:03:01] Cameron: before Trump was a thing, I was saying this about the Tea Party.

[00:03:07] Ray: Mm. Mm hmm. 

[00:03:08] Cameron: specifically Trump. Trump is not the problem. Trump 

[00:03:12] Cameron: is a symptom. of the problem. And by the way, so are the Democrats. They are symptoms, I believe, of the underlying issues that the United States has, that the, the political elites, both in the Republican Party, like the non Trump traditional GOP, 

[00:03:35] Cameron: And the Democrats have just been trying to ignore for the last eight or nine years.

[00:03:43] Cameron: They’re sticking their heads in the sand, pretending it’s not an issue. And it, and, you know, we can get 

[00:03:49] Cameron: into what those issues are over the course of the show, but these are real things. Again, like, Trump is not the problem. I remember when George Bush Jr. was president. And I was saying this to Chrissy at the time, because I met Chrissy in 2008 before the election, saying, 

[00:04:10] Cameron: Bush isn’t the problem.

[00:04:12] Cameron: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, they’re not the problem. They’re a symptom 

[00:04:15] Cameron: of the problem. And when Bush was ousted in that, 

[00:04:19] Cameron: election, and again, people were jubilant, saying, just, I say to people, just wait to see who 

[00:04:25] Cameron: comes next. Because

[00:04:28] Ray: Right.

[00:04:29] Cameron: if this isn’t the 

[00:04:30] Cameron: end, and I don’t think it gets better, I think the next guy

[00:04:34] Cameron: is going to be worse.

[00:04:36] Cameron: And,

[00:04:37] Ray: I remember that. I think I remember you saying that. Yeah, conveying that, which scared the shit out of me. Sorry, go ahead. 

[00:04:43] Cameron: well, you and I weren’t doing a show back then. We didn’t start doing a show until 2013. 

[00:04:48] Ray: No, somewhere you conveyed that, um, you didn’t say it like this, but we haven’t gotten to the bottom of the barrel yet. You did say something, 

[00:04:57] Cameron: Well, I remember when, when Trump was out at the beginning, in 2020, in the 2020 election, saying, Wait till you see who comes next. Because it doesn’t get better. It gets crazier and crazier. That’s the way these things tend to play out. Anyway, we’ll talk about some historical analogies. We just did, um, we just did an interview with the authors of a book, Witch Hunt, Um, couple of ladies in New York that have just come out with a book.

[00:05:23] Cameron: Well, not just, they came out with it a while ago, but they just 

[00:05:25] Cameron: got around to talking to us, so that’s the only thing that matters. Um, watch their sales just spike now, go through the roof. Um, they wrote a book of, a book targeting teenagers, but it’s about the McCarthy movement. hearings, trials, the HUAC hearings.

[00:05:41] Cameron: And I was trying to direct the conversation away from McCarthy hearings specifically, and talk about the underlying, uh, reasons why anti communism was a thing in the United States 

[00:06:01] Cameron: in the thirties, forties, fifties, and onwards. 

[00:06:05] Cameron: And the parallels between that and what’s happening today, because I think there are a lot of parallels.

[00:06:15] Cameron: You know, you and I often say, we’re quoting Mark Twain, Tony often says this on QAV too, history doesn’t repeat but it often rhymes. The patterns play out again and again and again in history because people don’t change. And, um, I think that, you know, there’s too much is made in the media and by pundits and politicians about personalities and not enough about the underlying issues.

[00:06:44] Cameron: What you tend to see, like you’ll see this at the moment in the media in the US, People will talk about what the underlying issues are that caused Trump to succeed as much as he did in this election. They’ll talk about, well, it’s the economy, well, it’s this, well, it’s that. It’s a pushback against support for transgenders, whatever it is.

[00:07:08] Cameron: But, that generally gets quickly forgotten. And they go back to politics as usual, because trying to deal with the fundamental issues is too big a job. I think for anyone to do in an election cycle, uh, it takes like somebody like a Bernie Sanders, who’s been banging on about this for his entire political career.

[00:07:29] Cameron: No one listens 

[00:07:30] Cameron: to that. It’s that kind of dialogue that 

[00:07:34] Cameron: needs to happen before things are going to. Change. Anyway, 

[00:07:38] Cameron: enough of my ranty ravey stuff, Ray, uh, as the 

[00:07:42] Cameron: um, only American whom I, I care to talk to right now. 

[00:07:47] Cameron: Um, what’s the vibe 

[00:07:49] Cameron: like in your part of the world, Ray?

[00:07:52] Ray: Uh, despondency. Um, fuck, we got to do this for four more years. Uh, everybody in the family is looking up, you know, how hard is it to move out of the country? You know, all that, all

[00:08:05] Cameron: Now I remember you saying this eight years ago and you didn’t fucking move.

[00:08:09] Ray: no, I did, I did not know this. No, there, there, we’ll see. Then it was just, Trump was an incompetent asshole.

[00:08:18] Ray: And now he’s got Roe v. Wade smashed, he’s probably going to get one or two more Supreme Court justices before he’s four years out, that’s what, six or seven out 

[00:08:27] Ray: of the nine? I mean, electing him will affect America for decades to come, so it’s the totality of what he represents. And you’re right, he’s not, it’s not like everything else in America is fine, it’s Trump.

[00:08:42] Ray: And he’s just going to bring us all down with him. No, I mean, when you, and I’m not going to do a long spiel here, that’s for later, but when you have a shitty education system, yeah, that’s for you. When you have a shitty educational system and you have, uh, the, the average American, probably like other people have a memory, a political memory of 2.

[00:09:00] Ray: 5 seconds, and they, they, And there’s things like, there’s gun violence, there’s healthcare. I pay 778 a month just in case something bad happens to me and I have to go to the hospital and that way I don’t have to pay more. That’s fucking insane, but that’s where I’m at. When’s the last time minimum wage has been raised, you know, by the federal government?

[00:09:22] Ray: So the point is, you’re right, there’s a ton of problems. They’re all being ignored. No one has the cojones to see. Bernie Sanders would get in and go, okay, we’re not. Fuckin around people. I don’t want makeup on. I don’t want to waste any time. Let’s get, he would, he might not succeed, but you know, he would, he would drag his issues down to the mat and try to beat the shit out of them because that’s who he is.

[00:09:42] Ray: And he doesn’t give a fuck about history. He, he just, he just sees problems. But the point is no one has the courage, the political will, whatever, to do it. And I think American politics has gotten so superficial. The really good people, Are smart enough not to go into politics to what, or at least on the presidential level.

[00:10:01] Ray: I don’t know. You can tell me what you, what you think about that, but as bad as this is, we haven’t crashed yet. Um, and, and we, we said this when Trump was elected, okay, Trump, Trump is an idiot, but as long as nothing bad happens, we’ll get through this. Well, then we had COVID and we lost a million people.

[00:10:18] Ray: Uh, so the point is here’s four more years. Trump is a little more comfortable now. He kind of knows what to expect. We’re not even going to bring up yet Project 2025. So I think he’s going to be more of himself. He’s not going to be overhauled or intimidated and he’s going to be Trump. And it’s, it’s not going to be good.

[00:10:37] Ray: Um, I, I don’t know. We’re, we’re still in, We’re just still, uh, stunned, and we don’t really know how to think or feel. For right now, it’ll go away, because we’re humans, we adapt, and we move on. But for right now, it’s like, holy fuck. And for me, because my family doesn’t give, this will be the last thing I say for a while, my family doesn’t give a shit about history.

[00:11:01] Ray: But me, someone who’s read a couple of history books on the toilets, do I now have to look in the mirror and go, I don’t know if I realized or didn’t want to realize some percentage of my fellow country people, and I know this is kind of harsh or whatever, but, but it’s not inaccurate to, to some degree, are fascists or racists or misogynists.

[00:11:23] Ray: I mean, yeah, we’re, we all think 

[00:11:24] Ray: these things, but you know, it’s 

[00:11:27] Ray: not, you know, I’m tongue in cheek there, but, but you don’t act on them and you don’t say, um, um, and because everybody has rights and we’re trying to move forward as a society. Well, a couple of days ago, we 

[00:11:38] Ray: proved. Fuck that We’re going back to the 1950s.

[00:11:42] Ray: I don’t know. It’s 

[00:11:43] Ray: insane. And to answer your 

[00:11:44] Ray: question, we don’t know how to 

[00:11:47] Ray: feel right now. 

[00:11:50] Cameron: Not back to the 1950s, back to 1930s Germany. Um, I, I don’t think, I You know, if I had to sum up my take on the people who

[00:12:00] Cameron: voted for Trump, it’s not that they’re all fascists or sexist or misogynistic or racist or whatever, it’s that they’re stupid, 

[00:12:09] Ray: The educational system and media. Go ahead. Go ahead. 

[00:12:12] Cameron: just stupid, generally speaking, to believe that 

[00:12:17] Cameron: A corrupt, criminal, um, serial 

[00:12:21] Cameron: rapist, guy, you know, billionaire, bankrupt, like Donald Trump,

[00:12:28] Cameron: is gonna save America?

[00:12:32] Cameron: You gotta be stupid, like fundamentally deluded and stupid. But I would say the same thing that believe that, believe all of the rhetoric that the Democrats believe about Biden and Harris and the Clintons is the same thing. So I don’t, again, I’m saying this is a, it’s a symptom of a, an underlying problem of stupidity and short termism driven by.

[00:13:01] Cameron: Media narratives, uh, and social media narratives and that kind of thing. People who believe that, uh, Vladimir Putin’s reasons for military action in Ukraine are because he wants to rebuild the Russian empire. I mean, just the level of. Stupidity that I hear from Americans isn’t, and I’m not just Americans, like it’s a global thing, right?

[00:13:27] Cameron: I’m just, I’m not picking on Americans here. People are generally stupid because they don’t read, they’re not 

[00:13:31] Cameron: educated, they don’t try and understand history, they don’t try and understand politics, they don’t try and understand philosophy, they don’t try and understand anything outside of usually a narrow domain.

[00:13:42] Cameron: They may be very good at their jobs, you might be really, a really good lawyer. or a really good, you know, copywriter or a really good doctor, right? But you don’t 

[00:13:53] Ray: A factory worker. Yeah. 

[00:13:54] Cameron: you don’t study how the world works. And, um, you know, as I was trying to get across to the ladies we just interviewed, from all of the study and all of the shows that we’ve done on the Cold War show about why anti communism became a thing in the US, the fundamental, there are lots of reasons, things are complicated, but the fundamental thing that made it happen, in my view.

[00:14:20] Cameron: is 

[00:14:20] Cameron: that the rich elite businessmen in the United States and the politicians that they controlled were very, very concerned about the growing anger huh? 

[00:14:34] Cameron: Uh, in the working classes, the proletariat in the United States and watching what was happening around the world about the inequality in the early part of the 20th century. And they saw people were starting to organize into unions and into political parties and revolutionary political parties. They did,

[00:14:54] Cameron: the rich 

[00:14:55] Ray: They have that right. 

[00:14:57] Cameron: The rich decided to, uh, use their wealth and 

[00:15:01] Cameron: their reach and their media control and their control of politicians to fight against that, to get on the front foot.

[00:15:08] Cameron: One of the things that they did in the United States very successfully in the 40s and 50s was co opt religious leaders

[00:15:17] Cameron: so they could start to position communism as evil, literally as evil, 

[00:15:23] Cameron: start And capitalism as Christian and American and pro American, and then they used their control of the media and their control of the pulpit and the innate Christianity that most Americans had back then, and they drove that message home relentlessly for decades until it became, until the very word socialist became basically verboten in the U.

[00:15:49] Cameron: S. until Bernie Sanders brought it back a few years ago, tried to bring it back. Um, and so it, and then I look at what’s happening with Trump today, and the same with the Democrats, because again, both political parties, as George Carlin used to say, there’s only one political party in America, and it’s the party of big business, and it has two divisions.

[00:16:10] Cameron: He was right when he said that in the 90s, um, Bill Hicks used to say the same thing, and it’s still true today, and, and, um, People, uh, generally just refuse to listen to that. But so what you’ve got is, I mean, this is why all of 

[00:16:27] Cameron: the billionaires were getting behind Trump. Um, towards the end, and spending insane amounts of money, which we’ll get into, to make sure that he won, it’s the, uh, rich consolidating their power over any forces of progressiveness.

[00:16:45] Cameron: Remember back in the Obama days, we had Occupy Wall Street,

[00:16:48] Cameron: which got shut down by the Obama 

[00:16:51] Cameron: Administration

[00:16:52] Cameron: so, anyway. Uh, let me, let me quote for some stuff that I’ve been reading over the last couple of days and we’ll, we’ll dissect it. This is from the New York Times. In a closing rally on the Ellipse last week, Kamala Harris scorned Donald J. Trump as an outlier who 

[00:17:07] Cameron: did not represent America. This is not who we are, she declared.

[00:17:12] Cameron: In fact, it turns out that may be exactly who we are. At least, most of us.

[00:17:17] Cameron: Populist disenchantment with the nation’s direction and resentment against elites. Proved to be deeper and more profound than many in both parties had recognized. Now, I want to stop there. That’s the interesting point. Resentment against elites.

[00:17:36] Cameron: Donald Trump is the very definition of an elite. Elon Musk is the very definition of an elite.

[00:17:45] Cameron: Um, you had all of these elites coming out in support of 

[00:17:51] Cameron: Trump. 

[00:17:53] Ray: Right. Mm-Hmm. 

[00:17:55] Cameron: yet the people voting for Trump claim to have resentment against the elites. Now, I think they mean the political elites and Trump has still managed to position him, uh, himself as an outsider in politics. Even though he’s very much, uh, you know, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, uh, blue blood, he’s, he’s positioned himself as an outsider and, you know, that is what Kamala Harris, uh, couldn’t do, uh, Biden couldn’t do, and getting the Clintons and the Obamas and all these people to support her didn’t do.

[00:18:34] Cameron: They didn’t have a candidate that could, um, play to the genuine resentment. And, uh, you know, I said this in 2016, and I said it in 2020, 

[00:18:49] Cameron: the American people have very, very good reasons to be angry.

[00:18:54] Cameron: Against. The elites and

[00:18:57] Cameron: against business leaders and the political leaders. The fact that they’re putting that anger in support of Trump is just a repre, uh, represented representation of how stupid they are

[00:19:11] Cameron: because they ain’t going to make it better.

[00:19:12] Cameron: He’s going to make it worse. Million times worse. And I laugh about the fact that 

[00:19:16] Cameron: you keep saying, well, we’ve got four years to do this and another four years. 

[00:19:20] Cameron: or four years. You’re assuming that there will be more elections in four 

[00:19:23] Cameron: years. I give that a 30 percent chance.

[00:19:31] Ray: There’s already talk about the Republicans doing something about the 22nd Amendment, which limits the President to two terms, so. You might be onto something there. I mean, but I, I’ve got a, I’ve got a hope in something, but here’s my thing, if you can look at a guy, and, 

[00:19:47] Ray: and, and no disrespect, because, because I live with these 

[00:19:50] Ray: people, no disrespect, you got a guy who, who does manual labor for a living, he drives a truck, he doesn’t have sleeves, he’s worn the same baseball cap ever since he was 18 years old, salt of the earth, work, whatever, all that good stuff, to have Trump Stare at that guy through the television screen with I don’t know how much Trump suits cost But I’m sure they cost a pretty penny and go I’m here for you They’re trying to get to you through me all that bullshit and for this person to go Yeah, he is really looking out for me.

[00:20:18] Ray: He’s gonna take care of me. He’s gonna make whatever and I’m like Trump doesn’t know the first thing about your life. He’s never shopped. He’s never asked him the price of milk. What the fuck? I don’t know. I just bought the cow. The point is there could not be a larger disconnect and you’re right. What does it say about the American people for someone to tell a bold faced, bold faced lie for years and have the people go?

[00:20:39] Ray: Yep. Nope. He’s my man. I mean, what does that say? about the electorate. I mean, we’re mad, but, but think about it. Think about Trump’s brilliance in this. The American people are so goddamn pissed. We’re ready for a French revolution. Let’s just go in there and guillotine all the 

[00:20:55] Ray: people that have got way too much money. Trump was able to not only go, Hey, not me. I’m with you. And he rode 

[00:21:01] Ray: that like a fucking wave all the way to the white house. And like you 

[00:21:05] Ray: said, not once. But twice. He was able to take that anger and ride it versus 

[00:21:11] Ray: having it roll over him. That’s a pretty good fucking skill, if you can do it.

[00:21:17] Cameron: Okay, but you, you, you’ve missed my point about the four years. 

[00:21:22] Ray: No, I know. 

[00:21:23] Cameron: let me, let me, let 

[00:21:24] Ray: gotcha. Go ahead. 

[00:21:25] Cameron: let me, drill this home for you.

[00:21:28] Ray: Wicca, wicca, wicca. 

[00:21:29] Cameron: I was surprised, um, the last time, 2020, that he didn’t, um, stage some sort of a, uh, national crisis. um, after the election, uh, where he could declare martial law and, and, and 

[00:21:49] Cameron: hold on to power. There were people in his inner circle that were trying to get him to do that. 

[00:21:56] Cameron: He didn’t do it. What nearly happened to him in the 

[00:21:59] Cameron: intervening four years?

[00:22:01] Ray: About to go to jail. 

[00:22:03] Cameron: Go to jail and have his entire empire and his family’s empire 

[00:22:08] Cameron: dismantled. He barely survived all of the, legal challenges that were thrown at him. They gave him too many outs, too many, they took too long to 

[00:22:25] Cameron: prosecute because I think the Democrats thought that’s it, he’s done, he’s over, there’s no rush.

[00:22:31] Cameron: It’s, it’s, you know, we can take our time here. They didn’t fucking nail him to the 

[00:22:36] Cameron: wall. You know, he got fined hundreds of millions of dollars, which he couldn’t pay, and he got it, he got them to fucking reduce the settlement amount. 

[00:22:46] Ray: Yeah. 

[00:22:47] Cameron: Um, 

[00:22:48] Cameron: So, but he got through and he’s going to be president again. Now, 

[00:22:53] Cameron: if he goes to the polls again, and let’s say he survives four years, chances of that probably not high.

[00:22:59] Cameron: And, um, you know, partly through assassination attempts, partly through just, he’s, you know, not a 

[00:23:04] Cameron: healthy looking fucker, but let’s say that he does survive the 

[00:23:07] Cameron: next four years. Do you, if you were Donald Trump,

[00:23:12] Cameron: would you take 

[00:23:13] Cameron: the 

[00:23:13] Cameron: risk of having another 

[00:23:14] Cameron: election? And what you know is gonna happen to you when you’re a private citizen again after 

[00:23:21] Cameron: your second term expires, in terms of legal and financial challenges?

[00:23:29] Ray: Yeah, your second and final term, unless The 22nd Amendment is, is, is adjusted. So I guess the thing is, and you probably heard this for the last, uh, 48 hours, like I have, Jack Smith has already met with the Department of Justice going, I’m ready to close everything. I had 

[00:23:45] Ray: the guy fucking nailed to the wall, 

[00:23:48] Ray: guilt as fuck.

[00:23:50] Ray: This is the way the cookie crumbles. So, so Jack Smith has already, has already started to shut things down. So the question is, is it just delayed until four years from now and that he can pick it back up? I don’t, I honestly don’t know. I don’t know how that works. But you, but you make a good point of trump’s, like if there’s even a 1% chance, some of these assholes are gonna come after me, after I’m out of the White House.

[00:24:11] Ray: Maybe my fat lily white ass needs to stay. So, again, Trump, Trump, Trump is a coward. At the end of the day, he can talk all this shit, but you know enough psychology to know that he’s an absolute pussy, he’s a coward, and the idea of jail and embarrassment and losing everything is more than he can do. I think he would try for something extreme, like having the 22nd amendment removed or augmented or whatever.

[00:24:37] Ray: You know, altered so he can stay in power. And the reason he didn’t do anything after the election, to me, to my thinking in 2020, is because he already had the 

[00:24:45] Ray: plan. And the plan was to get Mike 

[00:24:47] Ray: Pence to not certify the thing. So the point is, he 

[00:24:50] Ray: did have a plan. It wasn’t more violence, but he had a plan.

[00:24:54] Ray: This time, I think he’s thinking, I can’t take Any fucking chances, cause I’ve really riled 

[00:24:59] Ray: up the people that don’t like me. They will come after 

[00:25:02] Ray: me in some form. I think I’m going to stay right here in the oval. In fact, 

[00:25:05] Ray: I’m going to die in the oval

[00:25:07] Ray: office. But we’ll have to wait and see what happens. 

[00:25:10] Cameron: Yeah, I mean, We know why Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon 

[00:25:18] Cameron: Getting back 

[00:25:18] Ray: they were ruining him.

[00:25:20] Cameron: my fundamental premise of humans is humans don’t change. Um, you know, well, yeah, he was going to be destroyed. I mean, he crossed the Rubicon because Rome was corrupt and they, were coming after him and he felt like he was backed into a corner.

[00:25:37] Cameron: He had no choice. And I.

[00:25:39] Ray: they, they broke the law to punish Julius Caesar. I mean, they literally, 

[00:25:43] Ray: the Senate broke the law, several laws to punish him, and he’s like, well, if y’all can fucking do it, guess what, 

[00:25:48] Ray: bitch, that’s a two way street, but the point is, yeah, I mean, humans, 

[00:25:51] Ray: humans, at the end of the day, will do anything to protect themselves in the more 

[00:25:55] Ray: radical or extreme depths of hell.

[00:25:56] Ray: The threat is, the more

[00:25:58] Ray: extreme their solution has to be, so, who knows 

[00:26:02] Cameron: know people in America think, oh, that could never happen here, because we’ve got strong institutions, and

[00:26:07] Cameron: we’ve got this, and we’ve got that, and yeah, that’s what every country that’s, uh, had a revolution thought. It could never happen here. The Romans thought that. Um, You know, you, you now have Trump, looks like he will control not only 

[00:26:23] Cameron: the executive branch, 

[00:26:24] Cameron: he’s going to control both houses of Congress and he controls the 

[00:26:27] Cameron: Supreme Court. So all 

[00:26:29] Cameron: of the instruments of government at a federal level he controls. And has the ability to manipulate a great deal, a great many of the states as well, uh, by, uh, Using the levers that he has available to him, like funding and access to trade restrictions and who knows what else, to control what happens in the states.

[00:26:55] Cameron: Anyway, let me go back to the New York Times. For the first time in history, Americans have elected a convicted criminal as president. They handed power back to a leader who tried to overturn a previous election, called for the termination of the Constitution to reclaim his office, aspired to be a dictator on day one, and vowed to exact retribution against his adversaries. Rather than be turned off by Mr. Trump’s flagrant, anger based appeals along lines of race, gender, religion, national origin, and especially transgender identity, many Americans found them bracing. Rather than be offended by his brazen lies and wild conspiracy theories, many found him authentic. Rather than dismiss him as a felon found by various courts to be a fraudster, Cheater, sexual abuser, and defamer, many embraced his assertion that he had been the victim of persecution.

[00:27:55] Ray: Jesus Christ. On it. 

[00:27:58] Cameron: As, um, This election was a CAT scan on the American people, and as difficult as it is to say, as hard as it is to name, what it revealed, at least in part, is a frightening affinity for a man of borderless corruption, said Peter H. Weiner, a former strategic advisor to President George W. Bush and vocal critic of Mr.

[00:28:20] Cameron: Trump. Donald Trump is no longer an aberration, he is normative. His businesses went bankrupt repeatedly and multiple others failed. He was taken to court for stiffing his vendors, stiffing his bankers, and even stiffing his own family. He avoided the draft during the Vietnam War and avoided paying any income taxes for years.

[00:28:40] Cameron: He was forced to shell out tens of millions of dollars to students who scamming them, found liable for wide scale business fraud, and had his real estate firm convicted in criminal court of tax crimes. He has boasted of grabbing women by their private parts, been reported to have cheated on all three of his wives, and have been accused of sexual misconduct by more than two dozen women, including one whose account was validated by a jury that found him liable for sexual abuse after a civil trial.

[00:29:11] Cameron: He is the only president in American history impeached twice for high crimes and misdemeanors, the only president ever indicted on criminal charges, and the only president to be convicted of a felony. 34 in fact. He used the authority of his office to punish 

[00:29:26] Cameron: his adversaries and tried to hold on to power on the basis of a brazen lie.

[00:29:32] Cameron: Mr Trump beat some of the investigations and lawsuits against him and some proved unfounded, but the sheer volume is remarkable. Any one of those scandals by itself would typically have been enough to derail another politician.

[00:29:48] Ray: Let me just reply real quick and then you 

[00:29:50] Ray: can, I’m sure you’re going to go on. I think it was last year. I think it was last year. 

[00:29:55] Ray: You and I said something and we were 

[00:29:56] Ray: joking because, uh, that’s how we do. We were like, what does the Catholic church have to do to lose your 

[00:30:01] Ray: vote? Molest your kids? Clearly that’s not it because it’s done it, you know, tens of thousands of times.

[00:30:06] Ray: In fact, the, uh, archdiocese in LA a couple of months ago had a petition Pony up another millions of dollars, whatever. And they’re just, they’re just whatever. But the Catholic church is like, Hey, we’re still coming out of good. But the point is, what does Trump gotta do? You know, he, you know, that he holds the, uh, some of his rallies in airports because the civic centers or the whatever in the city are like, you still owe us from last time, bitch, you’re not welcome here.

[00:30:31] Ray: He stiffs people. The way he treats women, what, what he’s done to his family alone, he should just, you know, be put on a deserted island, but the point is, what does he have to do? It doesn’t matter. He can’t do anything because once people identify him as their savior, be it economic, moral, whatever, uh, you know, it doesn’t matter.

[00:30:51] Ray: And the last thing I’ll say is, and I’m going back to what you were talking about. Can you imagine being a priest and you’re a conservative Republican priest and you got to, okay, okay. I got to sell Trump to the congregation. Okay, I can do this. I can do this. Um, God sometimes 

[00:31:06] Ray: uses imperfect vessels. That’s the best they could do. Can’t God find or make or pick a better fucking vessel than Trump? The point is, there’s nothing he can do to lose these people, though. And if the 22nd Amendment is removed, he can run until he’s dead. 

[00:31:28] Ray: On an oxygen tank and these people will 

[00:31:30] Ray: vote for him. 

[00:31:31] Cameron: So, uh, Now that he’s president, um, all of the federal charges against him.

[00:31:37] Cameron: as you said, Jack Smith is already winding them down. He is still going to have to deal in theory with the state. legal challenges. He doesn’t have the authority to interfere with or stop state prosecutions, but it’s likely that those either will go away or that they’ll just get pushed down the road until his term in office, because there is a tradition that you can’t prosecute a sitting president in 

[00:32:10] Cameron: the United States.

[00:32:10] Cameron: So nothing is going to happen with those.

[00:32:12] Ray: stupid. 

[00:32:13] Cameron: He faces eight felony charges in Fulton 

[00:32:17] Cameron: County in Georgia for Allegedly, criminally conspiring to overturn the state’s election results there, and engaging in a racketeering conspiracy. And he won Georgia! 

[00:32:29] Cameron: Cross

[00:32:31] Ray: He lost it last time. He won it this time. He won the popular vote. He actually got more votes this time than last time. Or he did better with votes this time. I mean, what the 

[00:32:42] Ray: actual fuck?

[00:32:43] Cameron: the board and 

[00:32:44] Cameron: we’ll get into the demographics in, in a system, but, in a second, but, yeah, like, again, this is, I, I see, I see this as, um, it’s just a reflection of America and American culture. This is the America that I’ve come to know over the last 35 years. Um, America is a fucking Basket Case. And it’s, you know, I haven’t engaged in a lot of this debate in line because 

[00:33:19] Cameron: honestly, I can’t be fucked. But a lot of people are saying, but don’t blame all Americans. We, half of us didn’t vote for him. Um, yeah, but you’re also part of the problem. That’s the point. Even the people that didn’t vote for him are part of the fucking problem. You know, we’ve done shows about, we were doing shows about the fact that Biden 

[00:33:39] Cameron: was, didn’t have the mental acuity to run for president.

[00:33:44] Cameron: And I had people sending me angry emails and angry feedback on Facebook telling me to shut the fuck up, that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that he was fine, right up until he stepped out of the race.

[00:33:56] Cameron: Um, because they’re fucking stupid. They’re just as stupid as the Trump voters. Like, are you fucking serious?

[00:34:04] Cameron: Look at the guy. He can basically form a coherent sentence. Then we did a show when Kamala got the nomination. What did I say? What was my summary of her as a candidate? Can you remember?

[00:34:15] Cameron: Were you listening? 

[00:34:16] Ray: Ooh, I’m not sure. 

[00:34:18] Cameron: you can’t, you didn’t listen. I said she was a nothing burger as a candidate. She had 

[00:34:23] Ray: Oh, yes.

[00:34:25] Cameron: Apart from the fact that she was black and female and I’d say attractive. Told my one of my sons that, he goes, what do you think she, you’d hit that? Yeah, fuck yeah I would. I think she’s, she’s attractive. She’s, she’s pretty, she’s got a lovely smile, a lot of charisma, but as a candidate.

[00:34:44] Cameron: Nothing going For her. Nothing.

[00:34:46] Cameron: Nothing. She, when she first ran for 

[00:34:50] Cameron: the Senate, she did support some good policies. Like she was pretty aggressive on fracking, pretty aggressive on the Green New Deal, you know, uh, aggressive, more aggressive on things like, uh, you know, Palestinians and Gaza and supporting them.

[00:35:06] Cameron: As soon as she became the Vice President, or as soon as she joined Biden’s ticket, all of that went away. And, uh, during her four years as Vice President, nothing 

[00:35:15] Cameron: about any of that. And then even when she became the candidate, all of that was gone. She was not going to push any harder or any differently on that, on 

[00:35:24] Cameron: Ukraine. She wasn’t going to buck the Biden thing. She tried to play this dance of distancing herself from Biden, while at the same time just being a Democratic, uh, you know, shill. So she, she had, and they fucking put her in no primary. And the Democrats, largely speaking, didn’t go, Oh, fucking what? No primary. We’re just putting her.

[00:35:47] Cameron: No, fuck

[00:35:48] Cameron: you. Like, no wonder 11 million people who 

[00:35:52] Cameron: voted Democrat in 2020 didn’t even bother to vote this time. And we’ll talk

[00:35:58] Cameron: about some of the 

[00:35:58] Ray: Fuck you. 

[00:35:59] Cameron: we, know why. I saw, you know, John Mearsheimer. Who I’ve talked about a lot on the 

[00:36:04] Cameron: show,

[00:36:05] Cameron: American geopolitical professor and author, um, I saw an interview with him I think the day before the election, they 

[00:36:14] Cameron: asked him who he was going to vote for and he said, well obviously I’m not voting for Trump, but I can’t vote for Harris either because I draw the line at genocide.

[00:36:22] Cameron: I can’t vote for somebody who supports genocide. I just, I

[00:36:25] Cameron: can’t. 

[00:36:26] Ray: That’s a sticky, sticky point. Yeah. I’m anti genocide. I hope that’s not too radical 

[00:36:32] Cameron: yeah, I’m a radical leftist. I’m anti 

[00:36:35] Cameron: genocide. Alright, so, 

[00:36:37] Ray: Yeah. 

[00:36:38] Cameron: at the voting numbers across the board, from all the exit polling, 

[00:36:41] Ray: hmm. 

[00:36:43] Cameron: Trump just got a huge increase, pretty much everywhere. Um, young men of all races, Primarily. Got a huge bump. Now my, my boys, you know, they’re social 

[00:36:54] Cameron: media guys and they’ve been telling me for the last year, Oh, social media is going to win this election for whoever.

[00:37:00] Cameron: When Kamala’s campaign started doing videos, they were like, Oh, she’s got this lockdown, you know, TikTok game is so strong. And, um, Yeah, I kept saying, you know, look, it’s not 

[00:37:12] Cameron: about 

[00:37:12] Ray: That’s not 

[00:37:13] Cameron: TikTok, man. It’s, it’s about, you know, what the messaging is, how you deliver that. You might deliver it via TikTok. You might deliver it via mainstream media.

[00:37:23] Cameron: You might deliver it at rallies, but at the end of the day, it’s about what your message is, not how clever a 

[00:37:30] Cameron: video is that you do. 

[00:37:32] Ray: right. 

[00:37:33] Cameron: Um, but there was, you know, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, uh, using Twitter, by the way. All the people that have been criticising Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter over the last couple of years and talking about what an idiot he was for buying Twitter.

[00:37:53] Ray: Yeah. 

[00:37:54] Cameron: having the last laugh now? I’ve been saying, say what you want about Elon Musk, but he’s not stupid. He bought Twitter because he wanted a platform. I assumed it was a platform mostly to promote his agenda for Tesla and SpaceX and XAI and all the other things that he’s doing. Um, but obviously the 

[00:38:21] Cameron: political agenda was a big thing for him too.

[00:38:25] Cameron: And I had been planning on doing a bullshit filter show for weeks, um, about why he was supporting Trump. And we can, we can touch on that too, I guess, before we, we finished, but, um, he doesn’t look like such an idiot for buying Twitter now, does he?

[00:38:43] Ray: Right. I mean, it went from 44 billion to 10 or 11 billion in 

[00:38:47] Ray: value. But the point is, there are some things that are more important than, to money, 

[00:38:51] Ray: uh, than money. So he might be very happy right now. I just wanted to ask you one, I just wanted to follow up on one thing you said. I did read one article. about the young 

[00:38:59] Ray: men voting across the board of voting for Trump. I did read one article, I can’t remember where, it says something about young men are feeling, you know, between women really pushing for their rights, that men either feel like they, they might be losing their, you know, the number one, uh, position, and so maybe, not so much anti women, 

[00:39:19] Ray: but more pro uh, Men should be in charge.

[00:39:23] Ray: That’s the way white God intended it kind of thing. So there might’ve been a little bit of an anti female, um, or whatever, vote. Uh, do you get any sense of that? Or have you read anything like that? Just a lot of men are 

[00:39:34] Ray: going, whoa, you know, there’s a chance we could put women back in their place. Yeah. 

[00:39:40] Ray: I’m kind of okay with that. I wasn’t sure. I wasn’t sure if you’d run 

[00:39:43] Ray: across

[00:39:44] Ray: anything like that 

[00:39:46] Cameron: Um, look, I, I haven’t seen data that backs that up. I do accept that. Uh, misogyny is a, is a real thing. Like, I accept racism is a real thing. Where it sits in the list of things that people are genuinely angry and pissed off about, um, I’m 

[00:40:06] Ray: Oh, it’s probably low. Yeah. 

[00:40:08] Cameron: I’m not sure. Yeah. I mean, You know, I’ve been talking for the last couple of weeks with Chrissy about the fact that Trump has, one of his largest demographics has, for the last two elections before this one, has been white women.

[00:40:24] Cameron: And I keep saying, if there was one demographic you think that would be horrified by Trump, it would be white women. And yet, they were one of his largest demographics, and Chrissy’s response has been, it’s fucking religion. 

[00:40:39] Cameron: It’s Christianity, it’s religion, uh, it, it, you know, it’s, it’s fucked with the minds of these women who, you 

[00:40:49] Cameron: know, believe that, you know, He is somehow more pro abortion, I mean, pro changing abortion, anti abortion, the Democrats, and that’s all that matters, um, that he’s the chosen one, that he’s the Christian, getting the Christian vote, right?

[00:41:09] Ray: Right. Right. What? Well, right, right next to white 

[00:41:13] Ray: women, which again is a head scratcher is I think he got more than 50 percent of Hispanic men. And if there’s anybody other than white women who 

[00:41:21] Ray: should be nervous about Trump getting into office, it should be how should I put this, gently, brown males in this country.

[00:41:28] Ray: I mean, don’t, I mean, no, he’s not really going to deport 11 million 

[00:41:32] Ray: Hispanics because that would cost too much money and it would ruin our economy, yadda, yadda, yadda, but their lives aren’t going to get 

[00:41:37] Ray: any better. I mean, there are They’re just not. And I, I don’t get that. And a lot of people, you know, 

[00:41:44] Ray: look right into the camera and go, Oh, I voted for him for economic reasons. There’s other things. When your ass is deported, the economics won’t matter so much. I don’t know. So that’s just one of, one of those 

[00:41:54] Ray: other things that just made me scratch my head and go, really?

[00:41:57] Ray: Okay. 

[00:41:59] Cameron: And that’s, and that whole thing is obviously a ridiculous thing. Ridiculous argument. Like he added how many trillions? $8 trillion or something to the deficit. I mean, he, you know, he is, uh, he, he didn’t do anything good for the economy. I mean,

[00:42:15] Cameron: the, It’s they say that, but 

[00:42:18] Ray: He inherited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 

[00:42:21] Cameron: Uh, yeah. So look, I the. 

[00:42:24] Cameron: The exit polling stats that I’ve got say that he got a 10 point increase from all men under 30. So young men hugely attracted to Trump. He got double the support from black men. Now that was only from 12 to 24.

[00:42:40] Cameron: So, Still, uh, uh, only less than a quarter of black men, but he doubled his 

[00:42:45] Cameron: support and a 25 percent increase from Latino men from 38 up to 46, not, not quite half, but almost half of Latino men.

[00:42:55] Cameron: His support from Latino women went up 32 to 38. 

[00:42:59] Cameron: White women stayed the same at 52%. Um, white men, um, he went from 58 to 

[00:43:06] Cameron: 59, uh, 

[00:43:09] Ray: Mm hmm. Woo! 

[00:43:10] Cameron: This is from 2020 to 2024. Um, so the majority of white people love Donald Trump. Again, as we said in 2016, white people loved him. Black and Latino, not as much, but an increasing number of them did,

[00:43:28] Cameron: which 

[00:43:28] Ray: So the third time. 

[00:43:30] Cameron: stunning.

[00:43:30] Cameron: Now, he pretty much cleaned up in the swing states. The blue wall, uh, 

[00:43:34] Cameron: turned out to be, um, 

[00:43:37] Cameron: not really that much of a wall, about as much of a wall as he built it, uh, to stop the Mexicans from getting in. But I want to, I’ll talk more about demographics later, but I want to hark back to the billionaire story.

[00:43:49] Cameron: A report that just came out from a group called Americans for Tax Fairness found that 150 

[00:43:56] Cameron: of the wealthiest people in America contributed at least 1. 

[00:44:00] Cameron: 9 billion to candidates in this election.

[00:44:08] Ray: Jesus. 

[00:44:09] Cameron: Um, In the 2020 election, over 

[00:44:13] Cameron: 600 billionaires contributed 1. 2 

[00:44:18] Cameron: billion to presidential and congressional candidates.

[00:44:23] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[00:44:24] Cameron: 150 billionaires contributed double that amount, almost double that amount.

[00:44:31] Ray: Jesus. Jesus. That’s a priority. Clearly. 

[00:44:37] Cameron: now the fact that You allow 

[00:44:40] Cameron: billionaires to contribute billions of dollars

[00:44:46] Cameron: to 

[00:44:47] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[00:44:49] Cameron: is just ridiculous. So if we’re going to talk about the fundamental 

[00:44:53] Cameron: problems that America has, that is why 

[00:44:56] Cameron: allowing 

[00:44:57] Cameron: billionaires to manipulate elections. Carte Blanche 

[00:45:05] Cameron: is just ridiculous. Like what the fuck do you think is going to happen when you, the richest people are able 

[00:45:11] Cameron: to just contribute an unlimited amount of money

[00:45:15] Cameron: to political messaging?

[00:45:19] Ray: they all go to the same country club. 

[00:45:21] Cameron: 72 percent of that 1. 9 billion went to support Republican 

[00:45:24] Cameron: candidates.

[00:45:26] Cameron: 22 percent went to Democratic candidates. So there you got a problem straight up. 

[00:45:33] Cameron: You’ve got billionaires just sinking billions of dollars into supporting your candidates and in this case, the vast majority of it, nearly three quarters of it, going to, um, the, the, the Republicans. 

[00:45:47] Cameron: Now, um, the Musk stuff I want to get into in a little bit more detail because as I said, I’ve been meaning to do a show on this for a while.

[00:45:57] Cameron: But, um, I haven’t had a chance to do a bullshit filter on it since I started drilling into this. So, for people who don’t know, and this is confusing, because look, I have this 

[00:46:11] Cameron: interesting, you know, there’s a dichotomy about Elon Musk. Tony always refers to him as a Bond villain. And, you know, I think that analogy is good, but on one hand, I think Elon Musk is brilliant, um, he is a genius, and anyone who says he isn’t can go fuck themselves.

[00:46:31] Cameron: Um, you know, with what he’s done with SpaceX, and with Tesla, and his decision to buy Twitter, and what he’s doing with Neuralink, and with XAI, all of the businesses that he runs, he’s a genius. And the fact that he runs, if he ran any one 

[00:46:48] Cameron: of those, he would be considered a brilliant businessman and a genius.

[00:46:51] Cameron: The fact that he runs all of them simultaneously,

[00:46:55] Cameron: and you, you say he’s not, he’s not brilliant, fuck off. Go fuck yourself, seriously. I mean, the guy is a, is a 

[00:47:01] Cameron: freak. The fact that he got behind Trump, who he had been criticizing for the previous eight years,

[00:47:10] Ray: Mm hmm, 

[00:47:11] Cameron: very vocally, at war with Trump for most of the 

[00:47:16] Cameron: last eight years. They were at war with each other, bad mouthing each other.

[00:47:21] Cameron: To then jump on board the way that he did gave me whiplash. And so I started drilling into what’s going on here. I assumed there was something in it for Trump to, for Musk to support Trump.

[00:47:35] Ray: Yeah. 

[00:47:35] Cameron: And, you know, he said it was when 

[00:47:37] Cameron: Trump’s assassination, you know, nearly happened.

[00:47:41] Cameron: And then Trump got up and went fight, fight, fight. And he went, Oh, I’m going to get behind that guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that may have played a role in it, but 

[00:47:50] Cameron: Musk has been at war with the Biden administration for the last few years.

[00:47:55] Ray: Mm hmm, 

[00:47:57] Cameron: and his relationship with the federal 

[00:47:59] Cameron: government is Extraordinary and extraordinarily lucrative.

[00:48:05] Cameron: Um, SpaceX effectively dictates NASA’s rocket launch schedule. I mean, I was talking to one of my kids about this and he was like, Well, you know, he wants Trump to win so he can get more NASA contracts. I mean, he pretty much already has all the NASA contracts.

[00:48:21] Cameron: Like, NASA doesn’t exi Yeah, exactly. NASA doesn’t exist, pretty much, without Trump.

[00:48:27] Cameron: SpaceX right now. They’ve, they’ve basically outsourced, not everything, you know, Bezos’s company gets a little bit, but mostly it all, it all goes to, uh, SpaceX now and Boeing gets a little bit and that kind of stuff, but they fucked that 

[00:48:40] Cameron: up. Um, the Defense Department relies on SpaceX to get most of its satellites into orbit.

[00:48:48] Cameron: His companies were promised 3 billion across nearly 100 different contracts last year with 17 different federal agencies.

[00:49:00] Ray: Damn. 

[00:49:02] Cameron: So he’s very tied in and gets a lot of funding from the federal government and some people will argue that his businesses have been as successful as they have been because of the amount of money that he’s been able to extract out of the federal government to that’s able to fund him to do a lot of his research and run his businesses.

[00:49:23] Cameron: But 

[00:49:23] Ray: hmm. 

[00:49:24] Cameron: companies have also been targeted in at least 20 recent 

[00:49:28] Cameron: investigations or reviews over the safety of Tesla cars, environmental damage caused by his rockets, etc. He’s got a huge business footprint. And, you know, but there’s been oversight and regulation and investigations into his businesses from Transportation Department, Justice Department, Labor Department, Interior, Agriculture, the National Labor Relations Board, Equal Opportunity, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Environmental 

[00:50:02] Cameron: Protection Agency, Securities and Exchange Commission, Federal Communications Commission, and the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:50:10] Cameron: So He, being a typical rich, uh, quote 

[00:50:15] Cameron: unquote self made man, his view on government tends to be, fuck off and let me do what I’m doing because I’m a fucking genius and I’m driving the 

[00:50:24] Ray: Leave me alone. 

[00:50:26] Cameron: He has a messianic complex, you know, he does believe, according to the Walter Isaacson biography that I read, That he is the saviour of humanity.

[00:50:36] Cameron: That AI is coming, climate change is coming, thermonuclear war is potentially coming. We need to 

[00:50:42] Cameron: become a multi planetary species really, really quickly. We need to merge with the AI through brain computer interfaces. And no one else is doing this stuff fast enough. Other people are fucking around the edges of it.

[00:50:56] Cameron: He’s hitting it hard and fast like D’Angelo and your wife. And he is, um He sees 

[00:51:04] Cameron: himself as the guy that’s gonna help the human race survive and anyone that gets in his way, like we used to talk about Stalin in this sense. I genuinely believe that Stalin in the late 30s and the 40s 

[00:51:22] Cameron: and early 50s believed that he was the only thing that was going to make the Soviet Union survive.

[00:51:30] Cameron: Um, because he was the guy with the vision, he was the guy with the ability to get shit done. And. And they were being attacked on all sides. The capitalists were coming, um, you know, they were coming with economic blocks, they were coming with military invasions, they were coming with the atomic bomb, they were coming with all sorts of stuff that, and anything that he had to do.

[00:51:53] Cameron: To win, for the Soviet Union to win and to survive 

[00:51:59] Cameron: was justifiable, because they had a population of roughly 200 million people, and they were all gonna starve, or they’re all gonna get killed. 20 million died in World War II, a lot more were dying of starvation. He had to, 

[00:52:15] Cameron: he had to just mow down anyone who got in his way,

[00:52:20] Cameron: because 

[00:52:21] Ray: I got time. 

[00:52:22] Cameron: Couldn’t afford to slow down, right?

[00:52:24] Cameron: Couldn’t afford it. There were just road bumps. Had to, it’s my way or the highway. You get on board with my five year plan or I fuck you off and do a prison camp in wherever,

[00:52:37] Ray: Siberia. 

[00:52:38] Cameron: yeah, because don’t have time to fuck with your

[00:52:41] Cameron: bullshit. And then anyone. 

[00:52:43] Ray: do not. 

[00:52:44] Cameron: Anyone who was even, it’s a bit like the McCarthy 

[00:52:47] Cameron: hearings we just had, anyone who even remotely 

[00:52:52] Cameron: resembled someone who might get in the way, good enough, fuck you, you’re gone.

[00:52:56] Cameron: You’re either all in, and then, of course, there were lots of guys that, you 

[00:53:00] Cameron: know, got, in the inner circle, um, that got executed and removed because they were a threat to his power, or a perceived threat to his power. 

[00:53:10] Cameron: And again, if you believe you’re the messiah, if you believe you’re the messiah of a country, and you’re a psychopath, then doesn’t matter.

[00:53:17] Cameron: Anything I need to do to win is justifiable. I do believe that 

[00:53:23] Ray: by the means. 

[00:53:24] Cameron: one of, exactly, 

[00:53:26] Cameron: Musk is one of those guys, but he’s looking 

[00:53:28] Cameron: at it from a view of the 

[00:53:29] Cameron: human race. And if, and if the Biden 

[00:53:31] Cameron: administration is gonna get in his way and is gonna fuck with him and make life more difficult, 

[00:53:38] Cameron: then fuck it.

[00:53:40] Cameron: He’s, his deal with the 

[00:53:41] Cameron: devil was, listen, Donald 

[00:53:43] Cameron: Trump, I think you’re a fucking moron. I don’t like you, but here’s what I’ll do.

[00:53:47] Cameron: I will, 

[00:53:48] Cameron: I will help you get elected. I will throw my money and my 

[00:53:52] Cameron: platform behind helping you get elected in return for all of my problems go what.

[00:54:00] Cameron: And Trump 

[00:54:00] Ray: like, Trump’s. 

[00:54:01] Cameron: fuck yes, yeah, exactly, you’ve 

[00:54:03] Cameron: got problems, you want yours to go

[00:54:05] Ray: You scratch my

[00:54:07] Cameron: exactly.

[00:54:08] Ray: Yes. Yes. Mutual, uh, mutual, beneficial. Beneficially mutual. Yeah. 

[00:54:15] Cameron: So that’s, for me, explains quite rationally the whole Musk supporting Trump situation, it was a quid pro quo deal.

[00:54:25] Ray: Right. Yeah. I think, I think Musk 

[00:54:28] Ray: can be as emotional as anybody but at the end of the day, being a genius, he’s going to be smart enough to go, this benefits me, this 

[00:54:35] Ray: doesn’t, this is what I’m going to do, 

[00:54:37] Ray: even though I might not like it, it benefits me, ergo, that is the way I’ll go. I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, you do what you got to do to survive and keep it 

[00:54:45] Ray: going. And if that means dealing with Trump, 

[00:54:50] Ray: he’s, yeah, he can do it. 

[00:54:53] Cameron: So, getting back to the numbers and the demographics, 11 percent of people who voted in 2020 didn’t turn up in 2024. 17 million people who did vote, stayed home. Um, in total, in 2020, 155 and a half million votes were cast. This time it was 138

[00:55:17] Cameron: and a half million. Um, in 81 million votes 

[00:55:23] Cameron: to Trump’s 74. In 2024, Harris got 66.

[00:55:27] Cameron: 8 million votes to Trump’s 71. 6. So, a couple of million less people voted for Trump. And, uh, yeah, fucking 15 million less, uh, who voted for Biden voted for Harris.

[00:55:44] Ray: right. Do you think maybe, oh I don’t know, letting Israel wipe out tens of thousands of Palestinians who are innocent 

[00:55:52] Ray: might have had something to do with people not being cool with taking time off from their busy schedule and going to vote for Kamala? I don’t 

[00:56:00] Ray: know. It’s just an idea.

[00:56:02] Cameron: Look, I’m, uh, I’ll, I’ll talk about why people don’t vote in a second, but I want to say that Harris had got more votes than Obama did in 2012 and Hillary did in 2016, 

[00:56:14] Cameron: but way less than Biden got in 2020. Like, I think a lot of people came out of the woodwork

[00:56:20] Cameron: to 

[00:56:20] Cameron: get rid of Trump. in 2020, but this time around, no, the 

[00:56:26] Cameron: white people came out to, well, not, people came out to get rid of Trump and in 2020, but this time the Democrat, they, they couldn’t be fucked voting for the Democrats this time

[00:56:38] Cameron: around. 

[00:56:39] Ray: Yes. 

[00:56:40] Cameron: Um, now, 

[00:56:41] Ray: stayed home. 

[00:56:42] Cameron: I haven’t seen any analysis of why people didn’t vote in this election, but I do have analysis from 

[00:56:48] Cameron: 2020, and I, I don’t think it would have changed a great deal. The reason that people say they don’t vote, uh, as follows, and this is from an NPR analysis, by the way, uh, a third of them, roughly 29 percent say they’re not registered to vote. Why? 

[00:57:11] Ray: on that, well, on that one, because Kiki ran into this, uh, Kiki 

[00:57:15] Ray: registered to vote. She was very 

[00:57:17] Ray: excited, and, uh, 

[00:57:18] Ray: she got a little piece of paper, and, uh, I said, well, hopefully you don’t 

[00:57:21] Ray: get jury duty. And she said, what? I said, yeah, when you register to 

[00:57:24] Ray: vote. Your name goes into the jury duty pool, which I know may not sound like a big deal, 

[00:57:30] Ray: but in America, we really, really hate that.

[00:57:33] Ray: So, that might be a very, very small reason why, but, you know, I don’t know, maybe that’s something that should be looked at. But the point is, I find that very, very interesting. 29

[00:57:43] Ray: people just simply aren’t registered. Are they that busy? Or do they not care? 

[00:57:49] Cameron: Well, 29 percent aren’t

[00:57:51] Cameron: registered to vote, um, and I don’t know exactly what the reasons are, but some of the other reasons that you might assume are tied up with that are that the second biggest one is they’re not interested in politics, that’s 23%. 20 percent

[00:58:05] Ray: Why should they be?

[00:58:07] Cameron: say they don’t like the candidates,

[00:58:11] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:58:12] Cameron: percent feel that 

[00:58:13] Cameron: their vote wouldn’t make a difference, and 10 percent say they’re undecided on whom to vote for.

[00:58:21] Cameron: But if you, 

[00:58:22] Ray: I, I can’t, I can’t go with the 10. I can’t go with that last one. How in the fuck could you confuse Kamala, 

[00:58:30] Ray: who, far from perfect, and Tru I don’t know, to me that, and not economically, but in a lot 

[00:58:36] Ray: of other ways, it’s black and white, but anyways, uh, maybe that’s just me being more emotional than rational, but I’m like, I don’t

[00:58:42] Cameron: Well, that’s like, John Mearsheimer. 

[00:58:44] Ray: between those two. 

[00:58:45] Cameron: I’m not going to vote for Trump, but I’m not going to vote for somebody who supports genocide either, so 

[00:58:49] Cameron: You know, 

[00:58:50] Cameron: I 

[00:58:51] Ray: She screwed herself. 

[00:58:52] Cameron: who do I vote for? I mean, you can go vote for the Greens or 

[00:58:55] Cameron: an Independent, or you can write a name in, like 

[00:58:57] Cameron: people wrote in RFK,

[00:58:59] Cameron: apparently. By the way, congratulations with RFKs, now you’re going to be running your healthcare system.

[00:59:03] Cameron: So good luck with 

[00:59:05] Cameron: that.

[00:59:07] Cameron: Um, but the basic point here 

[00:59:11] Cameron: is that people, you know, a 

[00:59:13] Cameron: large percentage of the people, like, I think, um, How many people 

[00:59:18] Cameron: voted, did we say? Uh, 100 and, what was the numbers I said before? 140, um, 138 million people voted. What’s the population? What’s the adult population in the United States?

[00:59:34] Ray: uh, 270 million? I don’t know. I 

[00:59:37] Ray: really don’t know.

[00:59:39] Cameron: Um,

[00:59:40] Ray: It’s a lot more than 130. 

[00:59:43] Cameron: mean, um, Adult 

[00:59:46] Cameron: population, USA,

[00:59:49] Cameron: population 335 million, under 18, 

[00:59:55] Cameron: 22%. So let’s say 80 percent roughly of the population, is, able to vote.

[01:00:03] Ray: Right.

[01:00:04] Cameron: 80 percent of 335, right? Do some quick maths in your head for me.

[01:00:11] Ray: Nope, cause you got a computer right there. I’m not a show pony. 

[01:00:15] Ray: We’ve had this conversation. 

[01:00:19] Ray: And you know I don’t know all the numbers. There’s like 12 of them. 

[01:00:23] Ray: So, 

[01:00:25] Ray: 80 times 335, I mean, I forgot, I don’t know. 

[01:00:29] Ray: Do I look like Rain Man to you? Don’t answer 

[01:00:31] Ray: that.

[01:00:32] Cameron: Yeah. Okay. It’s about, let’s say 268, 270 million. Um,

[01:00:37] Ray: Fuckin nailed it! Sorry, go ahead.

[01:00:40] Cameron: yeah. Good job,

[01:00:42] Cameron: rain man. So. 

[01:00:46] Ray: I used intuition. Go ahead. 

[01:00:50] Cameron: 138 million people

[01:00:52] Cameron: voted. 268 million people could have voted. So that’s 130 million people just don’t fucking

[01:01:03] Cameron: decide. You know 

[01:01:03] Cameron: what?

[01:01:04] Ray: Oh, I heard you saying, yeah, you know, fuck it. 

[01:01:07] Cameron: I cannot be fucked. Fuck, fuck politics. 

[01:01:10] Cameron: Fuck the politicians. Fuck 

[01:01:12] Cameron: politics.

[01:01:14] Cameron: Here, here’s um,

[01:01:16] Cameron: here’s some of the stuff from this NPR article from 

[01:01:18] Cameron: 2020. Politics is simply not the way to make change, they said. Two thirds of non voters agree, for example, that voting has little to do with the way that real decisions are made in this country. They are 21 points more likely 

[01:01:31] Cameron: to say so than people who voted. A majority also said they believe it makes no difference who is elected.

[01:01:38] Cameron: President, and that things will go on just as they did before. Non voters were 29 points more likely to say that than people who voted. Non voters are also more likely than voters to say that traditional parties and politicians don’t care about people like me. The mainstream media is more interested in making money than telling the truth.

[01:01:58] Cameron: The American economy is rigged to advantage the rich and powerful. Success in life is pretty much determined by forces outside of our control, and a feel that most issues discussed in Washington don’t affect them personally. Non voters were also more likely to be young and Latino. 35 percent of non voters 

[01:02:16] Cameron: in this survey were between the ages of 18 and 34, compared with 24 percent of voters.

[01:02:22] Cameron: And notably, a quarter of non voters were Hispanic, compared with just 7 percent of voters. So,

[01:02:31] Cameron: people, like, like a large percentage of the country, say half of the country, 

[01:02:36] Cameron: uh, more or less, just believes that politics is bullshit, doesn’t matter, we’re being lied to, all the politicians are fucking useless and corrupt, the media’s lying 

[01:02:49] Cameron: to us. Disenfranchised, disaffected, jaded, and you know what? 

[01:02:54] Cameron: Right. 

[01:02:56] Ray: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they feel it in their bones. Trust me, I know. 

[01:03:02] Cameron: Um, so, 

[01:03:05] Cameron: You know, I 

[01:03:06] Cameron: think it’s a, so, like in countries like Australia, you have to vote.

[01:03:11] Cameron: Voting is 

[01:03:11] Cameron: mandatory. Or pay a fine. And 

[01:03:17] Cameron: so people vote. You know, we just had a state election here. Chrissy and I did it via postal vote. 

[01:03:23] Cameron: And as you 

[01:03:24] Cameron: know, 

[01:03:24] Cameron: our election campaign cycles run about three minutes. Um, They, they announce the election long enough to make sure that you don’t have anything scheduled for that day or to get a postal vote organized.

[01:03:37] Cameron: That’s all. Oh, by the way, what are you 

[01:03:38] Cameron: doing in three weeks? Nothing. What are you doing? Oh, we’re going to have an election. Oh, fuck it. Really? Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, I’ll make sure that I’m around or whatever. Who’s the candidates? Do you, does it matter? No, probably not. Okay. 

[01:03:51] Cameron: Um,

[01:03:53] Ray: Right?

[01:03:54] Cameron: Literally, I did not know anything about the candidates, and I got my postal vote from them, and I looked at it, and I, I, Chrissy looked at hers, and we both went, well, this is fucking easy, isn’t it?

[01:04:04] Cameron: It’s like, cunt, cunt, cunt, cunt, cunt, cunt, and, you know, Greens Party, okay, probably lesser of the cunts. Um, 

[01:04:11] Ray: Right. 

[01:04:13] Cameron: It was, it was, You 

[01:04:14] Cameron: know, that’s 

[01:04:16] Ray: chose the less cuntiest. 

[01:04:18] Cameron: yeah, the lesser of five cuts, basically. but You know, we have to vote, uh, and, and even if you’re disaffected as I am and disenfranchised and, and believe, you know, most of the major parties are fucking, Not worth pissing on.

[01:04:38] Cameron: Again, because they’re supporting genocide in Gaza. Like, fuck you. And 

[01:04:43] Cameron: they’re supporting, you know, the bullshit narrative around Ukraine. You know, a guy who is our Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. Before he was in power, he was a labor union 

[01:04:56] Cameron: guy. For decades, he was, going back to his university days, very vocal about the treatment of the Palestinians and of Gaza, you know, getting Israel the fuck out of Gaza, and two state solution, and very critical of Israel.

[01:05:13] Cameron: The minute he becomes the prime minister, all of that 

[01:05:16] Cameron: disappears, you know, 

[01:05:18] Ray: Well, we have to, uh Yeah. Bullshit. 

[01:05:22] Cameron: I’m like, fuck you. You have

[01:05:24] Cameron: zero credibility. How can I have any respect for you or your party, um, that they’re allowing this? Anyway, breaking down more of the exit poll demographics here, Ray, um,

[01:05:36] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:05:37] Cameron: Oh my God, the majority of men voted for Trump. 55 percent of men, uh, voted for Trump. Um, the majority of women, 53 percent 

[01:05:45] Cameron: of women voted Democrat. 

[01:05:48] Cameron: But, uh, when you break it down into a race, that changes. In terms of gender, uh, race, uh, majority of white people voted for Trump. Majority of black people, by a large margin, 85 percent of black people voted for Kamala. She got a bare majority of Hispanic, Latino, 52%.

[01:06:08] Cameron: Um, she 

[01:06:09] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:06:10] Cameron: slight majority in the Asian vote.

[01:06:12] Cameron: 54% and 42% of other, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, 

[01:06:24] Cameron: are 

[01:06:24] Cameron: you white? Why am I seeing 

[01:06:27] Cameron: this twice? Oh, American Indian is in

[01:06:32] Cameron: this next 

[01:06:32] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:06:33] Cameron: Uh, American Indian has broken out into this one. She got 34. The majority of American 

[01:06:38] Cameron: Indians, native Americans got, uh, gave their vote to Trump.

[01:06:44] Cameron: Well, fucking what?

[01:06:45] Cameron: Um, 

[01:06:46] Ray: What? Yeah, that’s a legitimate response. What?

[01:06:52] Cameron: sex by race, uh, white men 

[01:06:55] Cameron: voted for Trump, white women voted for Trump, black men and black women voted for 

[01:07:00] Cameron: Kamala, Latino men voted for Trump, Latino women voted for Kamala. And all the other races, it was pretty much evenly split. She got a little bit more, 48 to 46. Age groups. Now, this is another interesting 

[01:07:17] Cameron: thing.

[01:07:17] Cameron: You know, I’ve been hearing since the days of 

[01:07:20] Cameron: Bush that the Republicans were a spent force in America because 

[01:07:27] Cameron: the youth were more progressive. And the youth were going to be voting Democrat. The old white people were going to be dying off the boomers. You were going to have, uh, this rise of the young white voters and Latino and black voters were going to vote Democrat.

[01:07:46] Cameron: And they had it locked down,

[01:07:49] Ray: Yeah. Days are numbered. 

[01:07:51] Cameron: right? It was going to be locked down for decades to come. And there was a whole 

[01:07:55] Cameron: bunch of, you know, punditry and analysis about this in the early Obama years. In this election, 18 29 age group, 54 percent voted Democrat, um, so, a majority, but only a skinny majority.

[01:08:17] Ray: Yeah. Should’ve been more. 

[01:08:18] Cameron: 30 44, um, it was evenly split, 49 48, uh, 45 64.

[01:08:28] Cameron: Our demographic, majority voted Republican and 65 and over evenly split, which 

[01:08:37] Cameron: is kind of interesting. You would expect the boomers mostly to be Republican, but it wasn’t the case, it was evenly split. So it’s the, it’s the 30 to 44 demographic. I don’t even know what that is in terms of generation, I don’t know if that’s still Gen X.

[01:08:55] Cameron: I’m Gen X and I was, I’m 54.

[01:08:58] Ray: hmm. 

[01:08:59] Cameron: But overall, so if you break the, depending on how you break the age up, 18 to 44, bare majority went Democrat, 51 percent. Um, 45 and over, majority went Republican. Uh, you can break the ages up into other ways, uh, you know, smaller and smaller increments, but it’s basically the same thing.

[01:09:20] Cameron: When you get down to age by gender, Men 18 to 29 voted Trump. Again, a bare majority, 49 percent Republican, 47 percent Democrat, but the majority went for Trump. So young, young men, uh, 30 to 44 also Trump, men, 45 to 64, largely Trump, 60%, men, 65 and above Trump. So. 

[01:09:46] Cameron: Men of all ages love

[01:09:49] Cameron: Trump. 

[01:09:49] Ray: Yeah. 

[01:09:50] Cameron: Uh, most of the women, uh, across all ages and, um, races voted, uh, for the Democrats, except women, 45 to 64, 50 percent went Republican.

[01:10:08] Ray: Right. 

[01:10:10] Cameron: So, um, like young people. Again, stupidity. Like, voting for this fucking retard.

[01:10:20] Cameron: Um, it’s just shocking. What, which best describes your education? Never attended college, 63 percent voted Trump. Uh, attended college but never received a degree, 51%. Uh, voted Trump, 

[01:10:36] Cameron: Associate’s Degree, 56 percent voted Trump, Bachelor’s Degree, 53 percent voted Democrat, and Advanced Degree, 59 percent voted Democrat.

[01:10:48] Cameron: So the, so the Republicans are getting the majority of the, let’s say, uneducated, uh, or, or barely tertiary educated. 

[01:10:57] Cameron: vote.

[01:10:57] Ray: I love the poorly educated. 

[01:11:00] Cameron: Yeah, college graduates, uh, Democrats got 

[01:11:03] Cameron: 55%, no

[01:11:05] Cameron: college degree, Trump got 56 percent all up. Uh, so, I mean, look, you make university as expensive as 

[01:11:16] Cameron: possible over there, and this is what happens.

[01:11:20] Cameron: People don’t get an education, and they vote, uh, 

[01:11:26] Cameron: or they don’t vote, 

[01:11:27] Ray: Well, they fall for shit. yeah. good point, but they fall for shit. 

[01:11:32] Cameron: Um, one of the 

[01:11:34] Cameron: interesting ones, again,

[01:11:35] Cameron: is going to be religion. 63 

[01:11:38] Ray: Mmm, right.

[01:11:41] Cameron: Christians, so that includes things like the Mormons, 

[01:11:44] Cameron: um, 63 percent voted for Trump. Catholics, 58 percent voted for Trump.

[01:11:52] Cameron: 78 percent of the Jews, I love the Jews, 

[01:11:55] Cameron: um, 78 percent 

[01:11:57] Ray: Do my taxes. 

[01:11:59] Cameron: voted, for Kamala.

[01:12:01] Ray: How much? What was the percentage again? 

[01:12:04] Cameron: of the Jewish vote went Democrat.

[01:12:07] Ray: Okay, 

[01:12:07] Cameron: But they’re, you know, two tenths of fuck all. So it doesn’t really matter. But,

[01:12:12] Cameron: um, 

[01:12:13] Ray: that’s true. 

[01:12:14] Cameron: and I don’t know how many of them are pro Israel, but, uh, you know, I would guess that a lot of them are.

[01:12:21] Cameron: So in terms of who they thought, I assume 

[01:12:25] Cameron: this was an issue for them, was going to, 

[01:12:27] Cameron: uh, support the genocide in Gaza. They were all for the Democrats.

[01:12:33] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:12:35] Cameron: but there you go. In terms of no religion, 71 percent of atheists. Or no 

[01:12:41] Cameron: religion. Anyway, atheist, agnostic, whatever you like, uh, voted Democrat.

[01:12:46] Ray: Right. Huh. So We need we need, right. Sorry, go

[01:12:52] Cameron: got uneducated Christians are the

[01:12:56] Ray: That’s what I was gonna say. We need to ban church, make college free, and eventually 

[01:13:04] Ray: we might be okay. Maybe.

[01:13:06] Cameron: Which, you know, the communists, that’s communism, my friend. Ban 

[01:13:10] Ray: Boom. There we go. There we go There We go.

[01:13:14] Ray: We solved all the world’s problems tonight. I’m taking the rest of the week off. Oh,

[01:13:22] Cameron: the whole thing about, uh, 

[01:13:23] Cameron: you know, Trump being big in the rural areas, you know, there’s often been this thing about the, east and west coast elites. 

[01:13:32] Cameron: Um, He was up in all of those areas, including New York. He got 51 percent of the suburban vote, only 38 percent of the urban vote, but was up in that. And of course, 64 percent of the rural vote, So absolutely dominated that as always.

[01:13:54] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:13:55] Cameron: look, I want to, I want to finish. So that’s all of the election stuff, but we’ve talked about civil war 

[01:13:59] Cameron: stuff over the years. 

[01:14:02] Cameron: You know, I said at the beginning of this show that. I, um, 

[01:14:06] Cameron: I was surprised that there wasn’t some sort of a civil war or martial law declared at the end of Trump’s first term. I think the chances are much more likely. this time to happen.

[01:14:21] Ray: You can do something. 

[01:14:22] Cameron: And I’ve been trying to think 

[01:14:26] Cameron: about, based on 

[01:14:29] Cameron: my study of history, what are the, what are the precursors to civil wars? How do they generally take form?

[01:14:39] Cameron: What do they look like?

[01:14:41] Cameron: And then which of those models most closely resembles where the United 

[01:14:48] Cameron: States is at today?

[01:14:50] Cameron: And therefore, What do you think the progression is going to be? So I’m going to run these past you and see what you think.

[01:14:57] Ray: Okay. 

[01:15:00] Cameron: So the first one I would say is a successful coup. So you have a conspiracy to remove the head or heads of state.

[01:15:10] Cameron: Uh, Julius Caesar, um, the, the, 

[01:15:16] Cameron: sort of the French Revolution to a point, but not really, no, the French Revolution’s not really there. Um, you have a coup where you have a group of people that decide to kill the president, um, And, not like the assassinate, like there are assassinations of 

[01:15:32] Cameron: Lincoln, or the attempted assassination of Trump recently, although he wasn’t the head of state, you have 

[01:15:38] Cameron: assassinations that aren’t part of a coup, they’re just an assassination, JFK’s assassination wasn’t part of a coup,

[01:15:48] Cameron: it was 

[01:15:48] Ray: Right. 

[01:15:49] Cameron: an assassination for, because, depending on what story you want to 

[01:15:54] Ray: had a beef. 

[01:15:56] Cameron: Lone Wolf, Or the CIA slash the mob 

[01:16:00] Cameron: slash, um,

[01:16:02] Ray: Soviet Russia. Right. Yeah. 

[01:16:05] Cameron: wanted to get rid of the Kennedys.

[01:16:07] Cameron: Um, 

[01:16:09] Cameron: but you have a coup, right? So you have a bunch of people that are angry 

[01:16:14] Cameron: enough that they want to kill the leader of the government and overthrow the 

[01:16:19] Cameron: government. So you have a successful coup, coups come in two forms. You have a successful coup. And, you know, we talk about Rome, Julius Caesar, that wasn’t really a successful coup because, uh, the guys that committed the coup didn’t end up running the government, you know, it

[01:16:39] Cameron: was probably a 

[01:16:41] Ray: They wanted to. 

[01:16:42] Cameron: yeah. 

[01:16:43] Ray: Right? 

[01:16:44] Cameron: So you have a failed coup where the coup fragments the military or rival political factions. and 

[01:16:58] Ray: Mm. 

[01:16:59] Cameron: that who end up fighting each other in a civil war and the the stages of the coup are not successful. So, um, 

[01:17:08] Cameron: Brutus and Cassius weren’t successful after they 

[01:17:13] Ray: Right. 

[01:17:13] Cameron: had the civil war with Mark Antony and, and, um, Augustus,

[01:17:19] Cameron: um, or Octavius as he was at the time.

[01:17:24] Cameron: So, 

[01:17:25] Cameron: that plays out. A failed coup attempt. Then you have the large scale civil uprising. You have a, usually led by a vanguard of intellectuals. The people go on strike or take over key infrastructure. They cripple the economy and society, form a new government, and it goes from there. And sometimes the leaders are killed.

[01:17:53] Cameron: Um, as part of that process, you know, I think the Russian revolution, the French revolution are examples of these,

[01:18:02] Cameron: the people rose up because they were starving or angry, um, and they just went on strike or overthrew the prisons and overthrew the government. Just mass unrest, a mass public upheaval, not led from the top by a coup, but just by anger.

[01:18:22] Cameron: Political leaders, the vanguard of intellectuals, antagonizing, organizing, riling people up. So there’s a, some sort of an upheaval. Then you have the slow rebellion, which is where, uh, uh, A small group of rebels slowly start to take over parts of the country, building support with the populace as they go, capturing pieces of critical infrastructure one at a time, until they have a big enough army and a big enough amount of populace support.

[01:19:02] Cameron: that they can have more of a head to head engagement with the government. And the classic example for that is the Viet Cong, uh, against the French and then the Americans, um, in the Vietnam war, or Castro in Cuba started off with 20 guys. Uh, in the mountains and just built slowly, piece by piece by piece until he was big enough to, until the, the government collapsed and Batista ran away and they were able to, um, take over government. 

[01:19:44] Cameron: Um, then you have, I’m not, I’m not sure what to call this one, but it’s like the ideological revo, um, 

[01:19:52] Cameron: uh, rebellion, where you have a large section of the country split. That’s it. along ideological lines. The American Civil War, the American Revolution, I think both examples of this. The Korean War is an example of this, where you have two large ideological groups that, you know, just decide, you know what, fuck you, we’re breaking away, or we’re drawing a line in the sand, we’re going to take this part of the country, you’re going to take that part of the country, or maybe we’re going to fight over who controls 

[01:20:31] Cameron: the whole thing. Um, you know, I think the, the American revolution, it’s not often depicted like this, but we know it was, I mean, you had large, uh, numbers of Americans at the time that were pro British control, that were, that were collaborators with the 

[01:20:53] Ray: Loyal. 

[01:20:54] Cameron: loyal to the British. And then you had a group that decided to break away 

[01:20:58] Cameron: from the British and

[01:21:00] Ray: economic reasons. Mm-Hmm.

[01:21:02] Cameron: Exactly. So, and an ideological 

[01:21:08] Cameron: of it, you know, we, we don’t want to pay taxes to a foreign government, whatever it is. And then of course the civil war was about, you know, economic reasons as well. And, you know, the, the, the slave owning 

[01:21:20] Cameron: states versus the non slave owning the industrial states and, and who was going to control the future of the country. 

[01:21:28] Cameron: Then you have the situation where there’s a severe economic collapse or severe inequality, and, and the Russian and French revolutions play into that to an extent as well. But when you also have situations where there’s hyperinflation or famine or extreme inequality, large sections of the population are driven to desperation.

[01:21:51] Cameron: They’re not necessarily rebelling for ideological reasons because the state can no longer Or will. Will no longer meet their needs, and the people just rise up and decide to take shit. Food. 

[01:22:06] Ray: right? 

[01:22:07] Cameron: to feed themselves and then they get into a war with the authorities and they fight 

[01:22:12] Cameron: back. they 

[01:22:14] Cameron: get pickaxes and pitchforks and shovels and torches, right?

[01:22:20] Cameron: Which as we talked about in our Cold War series was what FDR was concerned was going to happen during the Great Depression and he was saying to the elite when he was introducing the New Deal, he was saying to the business leaders, listen, I’m your last defense, right, against pitchforks. Then they’re 

[01:22:35] Ray: Yeah, pay a little now, or pay a lot later. Yeah, 

[01:22:39] Cameron: were, they were like, fuck you. we 

[01:22:42] Cameron: hate the new

[01:22:42] Ray: Because they’re not used to 

[01:22:43] Ray: being, yeah, because they’re not used to being 

[01:22:45] Ray: stymied. And he’s like, it’s a brave new world. Well, the thing for me, out of everything you 

[01:22:51] Ray: just said, the people that are ready to war against America, within America, right the fuck now, are the militias.

[01:22:58] Ray: And they don’t really get a lot of news unless some ranch or whatever gets busted, but there’s a lot of militias, they have a lot of firepower, they’re getting more and more. Pretty highly organized, but they have to be careful because the FBI is trying to track them down. So if there’s a war right now, these guys are ready to go.

[01:23:15] Ray: Uh, but here’s the question. Most of them, if not all of them, are pro Trump. 

[01:23:20] Ray: So do they not attack while he’s president or maybe they’re thinking that he’ll help in their 

[01:23:25] Ray: own fantasy world that they’ll help. Uh, so, so who knows with that, but as far as all of those ideas that you 

[01:23:31] Ray: just espoused, uh, uh, 

[01:23:33] Ray: the, the ideological will probably be If something doesn’t 

[01:23:38] Ray: hack it, because, oh, I’m sorry. 

[01:23:41] Cameron: Um, 

[01:23:41] Ray: Okay. Well, I think it’s going to be 

[01:23:42] Ray: that one, but go 

[01:23:44] Cameron: The fourth one is a religious schism or a sectarian divide. So you have deep seated religious or sectarian divides 

[01:23:53] Cameron: that flare up into a civil war when a government favors one, group and actively discriminates against another. Sri Lanka, Lebanese Civil War, the Syrian Civil War.

[01:24:05] Cameron: We’ve talked about these on the bullshit filter and, um, the, the. Cold War show,

[01:24:13] Cameron: um, you know, where you have, uh, even going back to Tito, And his day in Yugoslavia and like huge religious divide and members of the government were actively supporting one religion versus another. And they’re like, fuck you.

[01:24:33] Cameron: And it breaks out.

[01:24:35] Ray: Right. 

[01:24:36] Cameron: seven. Number eight is a foreign intervention or a proxy war.

[01:24:40] Cameron: So you’ve got foreign powers intervening, arming one side to achieve their own goals. This is Ukraine to a large extent. Right, um, where you had And I’m not even talking about what’s happening today, I’m talking about 2004, 2014, America supporting coups in the country that spilled over into violence, didn’t erupt at that stage into a full out civil war, except in the Donbass region where it did, um.

[01:25:16] Cameron: And then you had the U. S. supporting Ukraine on one hand and Europe and NATO. You had Russia supporting the other side and the Donbass and then it turned into the 2022 escalation.

[01:25:32] Cameron: So, um, You’ve also got other examples like the Greek Civil War after World War II that we’ve talked about in a Cold War show where the British got involved to support the monarchy.

[01:25:42] Cameron: People were trying to overthrow the monarchy, the British supported it. Um, proxy wars. You know, a lot of what’s happened in the Middle East and has since the end of the Ottoman Empire have been proxy wars. Um, what’s happening in Gaza, what happens in Iran, what happened in Iraq in 2003, etc. Proxy wars happening.

[01:26:05] Cameron: Different foreign powers getting involved and trying to make sure that a government that’s supportive of their economic interests is in power.

[01:26:16] Cameron: Number nine is decolonization, where you have an empire or a federation fall apart, internal groups vying for control. The breakup of Yugoslavia after Tito died was part of sort of that sort of thing, a breakup of a federation.

[01:26:32] Cameron: The collapse of the Soviet Union after the Cold 

[01:26:34] Cameron: War, uh, India and Pakistan, after the British got out, Israel and Palestine, after the British pulled out of Palestine, um, Similar things happened in Iraq and in Syria after the European powers pulled out post the World War II and that sort of stuff. And the 10th is ethnic or regional marginalization, where you have ethnic or regional 

[01:27:02] Cameron: minorities that are politically or economically marginalized within a country and eventually rebel.

[01:27:09] Cameron: Again, Sri Lanka is part of that, although there’s a religious aspect, Nigeria, Sudan, Yemen. 

[01:27:18] Cameron: We often have that situation as well. It’s, it’s partly religious, but quite often it’s 

[01:27:24] Cameron: ethnic. marginalization, we hate you because you’re a Huthi or we hate you because you’re a member of this tribe or whatever it is.

[01:27:33] Cameron: Not necessarily religious, but ethnic.

[01:27:37] Cameron: Although the two, two are often conflated, but I think we can separate. So that’s, as far as I could work out, looking at 

[01:27:45] Cameron: civil wars, these are the 10 main that cause civil wars. Now, out of all of those, which do you think sounds? closest to where the United States is today.

[01:28:05] Ray: Uh, well, um, if I can put the second part of your 

[01:28:09] Ray: question to the side for a second. Any kind of serious economic collapse, uh, because Americans are nothing more than capitalists, I could see that causing some trouble, but I think it’s, it’s the ideology, but Um, 

[01:28:22] Ray: Civil War might be pushing it too far. I think there’d be a lot of fistfights.

[01:28:26] Ray: I think there’d be riots in the streets, which eventually would become a civil war. But, uh, yeah, I think it’s just, I, I, and, and I’m going to exaggerate on purpose, but I, I see the people, some of the people that voted for Trump, and I’m literally like, I don’t know. I don’t understand you at all, and to go from I don’t understand you at all to I hate you is not a, it’s not a big leap, um, because when there’s, there’s an absence of understanding, normally something dark fills the void, so I, I think it’s something about we’re just getting further and further away from, from, from the two sides are getting further away from each other, and eventually within that gap, conflict, violence, Whatever can take place.

[01:29:09] Ray: Basically, when one side attacks another, it normally comes down to two reasons. One, desperation, 

[01:29:14] Ray: or two, one side or both sides think they can win. Oh, well, I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t think I could win. That’s what a lot of conflict comes down to. You add that with a lot of all the tension and all the problems that we have in this country, 

[01:29:27] Ray: it’s a, it’s a fucking pain. Powder cake. But I don’t think we’re, for a lot of us, we’re not there yet. But for some people, they’re already there and they’re 

[01:29:36] Ray: just waiting for the whistle to blow. So, I think it’s the ideology. What about

[01:29:40] Ray: you? 

[01:29:42] Cameron: Yeah. Out of those 10, I think an ideological war is where you’re headed, uh, where the United States is most likely going to split. And with where you’re at now, I don’t, I think the way, if I had to guess how it would play out, it’s a combination of things, but you know, and I thought this the 

[01:30:07] Cameron: last time around, and I’ve been thinking this for the last eight or nine years, is. I can imagine a couple of scenarios. One scenario is where Trump gets assassinated. And, uh, whoever replaces him, J. D. Vance, let’s say, decides that, to blame it, rightly or wrongly, on radical leftists, and they, um, crack down. So they implement a version of martial law, they crack down, they start arresting anyone who’s ever expressed a leftist opinion on Twitter, Facebook, and Um, eventually the, the victims try and fight back and, and then people, militias or whatever in states, the states start to do some of the same things.

[01:31:03] Cameron: Some of the red states, uh, some of the militias in the blue states start to take it upon themselves to start rounding up radical leftists, atheists, pro abortionists, homosexuals, trans, LGBTQ, whatever 

[01:31:20] Cameron: it is. The Jews.

[01:31:23] Ray: hmm. 

[01:31:23] Cameron: we love, we love Israel, but we hate the Jews. Um, whatever it is. 

[01:31:29] Cameron: Uh, so that’s one way that kind of a thing can happen.

[01:31:32] Cameron: The other thing is similar in 

[01:31:36] Cameron: that either as some other event happens, the burning of the Reichstag is the other example for this, right? A manufactured event. That creates a justification for a 

[01:31:51] Cameron: crackdown on your ideological enemies in the country. The,

[01:31:57] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:31:58] Cameron: um, or the other thing is, it doesn’t need to be, 

[01:32:05] Cameron: prefaced by that kind of, uh, justification.

[01:32:10] Cameron: It’s just a crackdown. Okay. So if, if you’re Trump and you’ve decided that, um, you’re the biggest threat 

[01:32:22] Cameron: to your political career, uh, political 

[01:32:25] Cameron: career, uh, and the career, the business career of all of your friends is. People agitating, you know, unions agitating, leftists agitating, people talking about, you know, your crimes or whatever it is, you just move to outlaw that,

[01:32:44] Cameron: you know, 

[01:32:44] Ray: Yeah. Preemptive. 

[01:32:46] Cameron: Yeah, you just start shutting stuff down and eventually somebody fights back against that.

[01:32:53] Cameron: There’s a retaliation and that just starts to build and it turns into a civil 

[01:32:58] Ray: Exactly. 

[01:32:59] Cameron: The America, this is what I’ve been saying for decades, America is a tinderbox and it won’t take much for it to explode, particularly as 

[01:33:10] Cameron: trust in the institutions 

[01:33:12] Cameron: of government are whittled away. Right now, subreddits, 

[01:33:17] Cameron: they believe that. Everyone in the government is corrupt. If I go into the Democratic subreddits, 

[01:33:28] Cameron: Conservative side of government is corrupt.

[01:33:31] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:33:32] Cameron: the other side is corrupt. And then you’ve got the non voters who believe that it’s all corrupt. So you 

[01:33:37] Cameron: got the Reds, the 

[01:33:39] Ray: a lot of 

[01:33:40] Cameron: and the fucking you’re all corrupt 

[01:33:42] Ray: Neutral. Right? Right. 

[01:33:45] Cameron: Um, it’s a tinderbox 

[01:33:47] Cameron: waiting to happen. Um, 

[01:33:50] Cameron: so I, I just, I have thought for a long time and I continue to think and it gets worse every year that that’s what you’re looking for. And of course that ideological war will be supported by foreign intervention. China. Russia, Iran, um, all of the countries that you’ve fucked with, uh,

[01:34:09] Cameron: for 

[01:34:10] Ray: Mm hmm. 

[01:34:10] Cameron: if not

[01:34:11] Cameron: centuries, 

[01:34:12] Ray: Fucked back. 

[01:34:13] Cameron: will 

[01:34:13] Cameron: do whatever they can do to try and support, uh, division in the country.

[01:34:20] Ray: Right. 

[01:34:21] Cameron: I did see like a day or so before the election 

[01:34:25] Cameron: media coverage saying the Russians are trying to cause division in the country. 

[01:34:31] Cameron: It’s like, yeah, the Russians don’t need to, aren’t the ones causing division in the

[01:34:35] Ray: No. Save your money.

[01:34:37] Cameron: Yeah,

[01:34:38] Ray: Save your money, Russia. We got this. We can do this ourselves.

[01:34:42] Cameron: fuck me. Anyway,

[01:34:46] Ray: but, but, that article is an attempt at internal division. you want 

[01:34:54] Ray: people on the left to get angry, the 

[01:34:56] Ray: people on the right or Russia. 

[01:34:57] Ray: I mean, even that’s an example of just stirring the pot. Anyway, I couldn’t let that pass.

[01:35:03] Cameron: well there was another article, depending on how this election turned out, that I was going to read, I saw a number of articles in the New York Times and the mainstream media just before the election that was There was saying that the polling that was being shared in conservative media channels before the election and I saw a lot of this happening, that was saying Trump was going to win by a landslide, was all manufactured and bad polling because As they were gearing up for when Trump lost to be able to say, well, obviously the election was stolen because our polling said it was going to be a landslide and it wasn’t, therefore the election was stolen.

[01:35:56] Cameron: And so the New York Times were pushing this narrative that, well, all of the other polls say that it’s going to be really close. So these polls were obviously wrong. Corrupt and deliberately manipulated because they’re going to justify this argument after the election. Turns out, they were right and he didn’t win by a landslide.

[01:36:18] Cameron: And so, again, the New York Times had no fucking idea what they were talking about.

[01:36:27] Ray: right. 

[01:36:28] Cameron: Oh, by the way, Alan 

[01:36:29] Cameron: Lichtman, we did a show on the 13 keys.

[01:36:33] Ray: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[01:36:34] Cameron: He and his son 

[01:36:35] Cameron: did a 6 hour live coverage of the election on their 

[01:36:38] Cameron: YouTube channel, which I watched the 

[01:36:40] Cameron: last 10 minutes of. Uh, 

[01:36:43] Cameron: you want to see somebody who’s depressed and re evaluating his life choices right 

[01:36:47] Cameron: now?

[01:36:47] Cameron: It’s Alan Lichtman.

[01:36:51] Ray: well, he’s still, he’s still more right than he is wrong, that’s something, right? Is this the guy that guessed, uh, correctly guessed the last six or nine presidential elections, or am I thinking of somebody else? 

[01:37:04] Cameron: No, yeah, yeah. 

[01:37:05] Ray: read is 

[01:37:06] Cameron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[01:37:09] Ray: Oh no, I’m sure he’s like 

[01:37:10] Cameron: went horribly wrong. 

[01:37:12] Ray: Yes. Yes. 

[01:37:14] Cameron: he, 

[01:37:15] Cameron: in fairness, he did say in the lead up to this election, 

[01:37:18] Cameron: look, um, my keys were built by studying the true, you know, historical elections, which 

[01:37:25] Cameron: were traditional elections and Trump is not a traditional 

[01:37:28] Cameron: candidate. This is not a traditional election we’re going into and it could, uh, completely, 

[01:37:38] Cameron: you 

[01:37:38] Cameron: know, Throw everything up in the air and, and he was right.

[01:37:43] Cameron: Like by any traditional metric, Trump should not even have been a candidate

[01:37:50] Cameron: in 2015, let alone 2024. So 

[01:37:56] Cameron: all bets were basically off.

[01:37:59] Cameron: But anyway, so there 

[01:37:59] Ray: Right. Right. 

[01:38:02] Cameron: The only winner in this election, apart from Donald Trump, was Tony Kynaston because a couple of months ago when Kamala got the nomination, Tony took out bets both ways.

[01:38:12] Cameron: He took out a bet for Trump to win and a bet for Kamala to win.

[01:38:16] Cameron: So, 

[01:38:17] Ray: good.

[01:38:18] Ray: He’s good. 

[01:38:19] Cameron: Yeah. 

[01:38:19] Ray: Yeah. 

[01:38:25] Cameron: Anyway, to sum all of that up, America is deep, deep fucking problems, and it’s not about Trump. 

[01:38:31] Cameron: It’s about the system. It’s about late stage capitalism. It’s about billionaires getting to decide who wins elections. It’s about both of your major parties being absolutely and thoroughly corrupted 

[01:38:46] Cameron: by the industrial 

[01:38:47] Cameron: military complex.

[01:38:49] Cameron: It’s about the lack of education. In the American population, about how your country works, about how much propaganda you’ve been fed over the course of your life, about, 

[01:39:03] Cameron: uh, everything, like, just, it’s, it’s fucked from the ground up. Um, and I’m not trying to be mean, and I’m not saying that Australia doesn’t have similar problems, or any other country doesn’t have similar problems, we all do, because we’re all living in this era of late stage capitalism, where money is, I mean, we don’t have billionaires able to write books.

[01:39:27] Cameron: Blank checks in our elections, but we do have billionaires that control the media, that can control the narrative, and Rupert Murdoch gets to control the narrative, and a lot of people here are fucking stupid and believe everything they read in the media as well, etc. So we have a lot of the same sort of problems, but these are all problems of late stage capitalism of the rich elite.

[01:39:50] Cameron: That are manufacturing the consent of the people using the tools at their disposal to get the people to do what they want them to do in order to try and make sure that the people don’t rise up and demand more equality. economic equality, political equality, etc, etc.

[01:40:11] Cameron: We’re being manipulated on a daily basis by the rich elite and most people, you know, uh, don’t even realize how much they’re being manipulated.

[01:40:24] Cameron: And I don’t know what to do about it, honestly, except AI. I continue to believe that our only hope is AI. And here’s the other fucking kicker. We’re going to

[01:40:31] Cameron: get probably artificial general intelligence in the next four years. Donald Trump. He’s not the guy 

[01:40:38] Cameron: you want to be in power when that happens, but Elon Musk maybe is.

[01:40:44] Cameron: Like Elon was the co founder of OpenAI and he’s just built the biggest AI data center on the planet for XAI. Um, he’s a big believer in AI. He’s a big believer in the future of AI and humans and making sure it goes 

[01:41:06] Cameron: well. If he doesn’t have a falling out with Trump. And I give that, you know, 

[01:41:11] Cameron: 90 percent chances that he will within three months.

[01:41:15] Cameron: If somehow they’re able to keep their 

[01:41:17] Cameron: egos in check, uh, we might have basically it like, 

[01:41:22] Cameron: I’d hate to be the guys that open AI right now. Um, yeah. Uh, Elon in charge of 

[01:41:28] Cameron: AI, Trump in charge of AI, bad. Elon in charge of AI,

[01:41:33] Ray: ha. 

[01:41:34] Cameron: maybe not so bad. 

[01:41:35] Cameron: I don’t

[01:41:38] Ray: Ha ha ha. Okay. When you publish this episode, please put out Maybe. a don’t listen to right before you go to sleep warning because I’m going to have nightmares tonight thinking about that. Thank you. Thank you. 

[01:41:54] Cameron: anyone who doesn’t know that about these shows by now, 

[01:41:56] Cameron: yeah, I will put a 

[01:41:58] Ray: Good point. 

[01:41:59] Cameron: yeah. 

[01:41:59] Ray: Good point. 

[01:42:01] Cameron: Well, once again, congratulations America, you fucked it. 

[01:42:05] Cameron: Yet again. Congratulations, well done. 

 

The post BS 129 – It’s The Stupid, Stupid appeared first on The BS Filter.

The media coverage, and Western government commentary, of Israel’s pager and walkie-talkie attacks in Lebanon have studiously avoided the use of the word “terrorism”, even though that’s what all of the world’s human rights organisations are calling it and what we all know the media and governments would be calling if it any other single country did it. Today on the show we break down why.

The post BS 128 – Israel’s Terrorism appeared first on The BS Filter.

Who is Kamala Harris? How does she stack up as a potential POTUS? And how do Lichtman’s 13 Keys to the White House work? Who does it predict will win the 2024 election? Listen and find out.

The post BS 127 – Kamala and Lichtman’s 13 Keys appeared first on The BS Filter.

In this episode of ‘The Bullshit Filter,’ we discuss the US’s selective adherence to international laws, the complex US-Saudi relationship, and evolving power dynamics involving China. Discussions include potential ICC arrest warrants for Israeli and Hamas leaders, the US’s opposition to ICC jurisdiction over Israel, and the historical context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Additionally, the conversation explores US energy policy, Chinese and Russian competition, Boris Johnson’s alleged role in derailing a Russia-Ukraine peace deal, and China’s dominance in green technology markets. The episode concludes with a speculative look at the upcoming US presidential election, highlighting the strategic interests and long-term consequences of these geopolitical maneuvers.

00:00 Welcome to the Bullshit Filter: Episode 126
01:26 Diving Deep into the ICC’s Controversial Moves
04:31 Exploring the ICC’s Origins and U.S. Relations
09:15 The Complexities of International Law and Hypocrisy
13:46 Unpacking the Israel-Palestine Conflict and Global Reactions
25:29 The Power of Repetition in Shaping Beliefs
33:11 The Future of AI in Understanding Complex Histories
47:19 Mysterious Helicopter Crash Raises Questions
53:46 Unraveling the Mystery: The Silence Surrounding a High-Profile Incident
56:03 Deep Dive into 9/11: Uncovering Saudi Complicity
01:10:38 The Geopolitical Chessboard: Russia, Ukraine, and the West’s Influence
01:19:15 Energy Wars: The Battle for Dominance in the Green Economy
01:24:59 The Irony of Global Trade: US-China Economic Tensions
01:36:01 Election Speculations: The Betting Odds on Trump vs. Biden

The post BS 126 – The Global Rules-Based Order appeared first on The BS Filter.

This month we’re looking (again) at the US’ ban of TikTok, and their veto over Palestine’s membership in the UN, as well as the Australian government trying to censor X and we ask if what Israel is doing  is “genocide”. 

00:00 Welcome to the Bullshit Filter: Unpacking Contemporary Issues
01:21 Freedom of Speech and Social Media: A Deep Dive
03:44 The Role of the eSafety Commissioner in Online Safety
06:32 Exploring the Impact of Social Media on News Consumption
11:56 The Complex Landscape of Free Speech and Regulation
32:26 The Future of AI in Ethical and Content Regulation
35:01 The Decline of Free-to-Air TV and the Rise of Streaming
44:33 The Future of AI in Media Production
46:24 The Evolution of American English
47:48 TikTok’s Global Impact and US Policy Challenges
55:48 Exploring the Moderation and Influence of Social Media
59:59 Navigating News Consumption in the Digital Age
01:08:33 Analyzing the US’s Stance on Palestine’s UN Membership
01:18:42 Exploring the Implications of Palestine’s UN Membership
01:20:05 The Hypocrisy of the US and Its Allies on the Two-State Solution
01:21:30 Drawing Parallels: US Support for Apartheid and Israel
01:23:39 The Shift in Public Opinion and Policy on Social Issues
01:25:20 Debating the Definition and Occurrence of Genocide
01:25:23 Analyzing the Email: Is What Israel Doing Genocide?
01:35:13 The Complex Dynamics of International Condemnation and Israel’s Actions
01:52:23 Campus Protests and the Future of Political Activism
01:55:32 Concluding Thoughts and Humorous Banter

The post BS 125 – Come On Feel the Noise appeared first on The BS Filter.

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Today we delve into the ACTUAL reasons behind the US attempts to ban / force a sale of TikTok. And we also look at some newspaper headlines and break them apart.

Transcript

BS 124

[00:00:00] Cameron: Alright, yeah, both of you give me a one, two, three, one at a time, Ray.

[00:00:15] Ray: One, two, three.

[00:00:18] Tony: Oh, is that how you do it? Okay.

[00:00:19] Ray: I don’t know what he’s doing. I don’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. I really don’t.

[00:00:24] Tony: Four, five, six.

[00:00:27] Cameron: just to be clever. Welcome back to the Bullshit Fielder episode 124, recording this on the 22nd of March, 2024, uh, with me today, um, my two, uh, but you know, this is like a threesome, uh, rare

[00:00:46] Ray: An intellectually threesome. Yes. Yeah.

[00:00:50] Cameron: wife number two, Ray Harris, and, uh,

[00:00:54] Ray: been demoted.

[00:00:55] Cameron: Wife number three, Toni Kynaston. Um, I feel like, like a fundamentalist, uh, Mormon right now with everyone.

[00:01:05] Cameron: Get Chrissy in here and it’ll be scary.

[00:01:07] Tony: Well, I only get Cameron on Tuesday, so now I’m being promoted, I get Friday as well.

[00:01:12] Cameron: Big love. Once a month, once a month on the Friday, yeah.

[00:01:16] Tony: right.

[00:01:18] Cameron: Um, alright, well, um, Tony, Tony had such a good time last time he was on the bullshit filter. He said he wanted to come back and, and Ray’s happy because it means he needs to do even less work. Which, uh, less than

[00:01:32] Ray: that is correct.

[00:01:34] Cameron: Negative

[00:01:35] Ray: Negative. Yeah. Negative one third.

[00:01:38] Cameron: We’re going to cover a couple of stories today.

[00:01:40] Cameron: We’re going to try to anyway. Uh, we’re going to talk about the TikTok ban that’s happening, not just in the US, but there’s hints that it’s going to happen in other places as well, like Australia. Uh, we’re going to take a newspaper headline, a front page of a newspaper each and, and deconstruct it. And we’re going to talk a little bit at the end about China’s economy, so let’s, that’s a lot.

[00:02:03] Cameron: I’ve got a lot of notes here, so we’ll see how we get, how far we get. Who wants to start with the TikTok ban? Who wants to be the first cab off the rank? With that?

[00:02:15] Ray: Well, I do know this. Um, the House of Representatives have passed a version. The Senate is working on their version, which it means if it passes it, we’ll have to go to the House to then be reconciled. Um, it will be in committee for a while, so if it is going to happen, it is going to be still quite some time down the road, and even if it does pass the current bill, say, we’ll The company has six months to divest themselves.

[00:02:39] Ray: And so for the people in America who are freaking out like me, cause I pretty much give it, it’s my new crack cocaine, uh, Tik Tok is. And, um, so if it does happen, it’s not going to happen right away. But, um, again, I guess it goes to the very fundamental. The question of, you know, for, um, freedom of speech, um, we all know that Facebook steals our, our, our, our information.

[00:03:02] Ray: They sell it, whatever. Is TikTok doing anything else that any of these other social, uh, companies are doing? Are they just doing it for the Chinese government? So it’s a whole bunch of shit. There’s a lot of people in America who are absolutely pissed, even at the idea, the, the chance that this could go through.

[00:03:18] Ray: What are y’all hearing on your side of the pond, of the

[00:03:21] Cameron: I know why. I know why You like TikTok rage. I just realized it because they call it short form content and

[00:03:27] Ray: Yes. It matches me perfectly.

[00:03:30] Cameron: Yeah, yeah. Just you have loyalty to anything that’s short.

[00:03:33] Ray: in fact, in fact, most of the TikToks are too long. If I had to complain about anything, but yeah, yeah. Short and

[00:03:40] Tony: well, I mean, if someone, someone of our, some of the Raise Vintage and Our Vintage is on TikTok, is it dead anyway? Is it going to last six months? Really?

[00:03:49] Ray: Yeah.

[00:03:49] Cameron: yeah, that’s true. That’s what Taylor keeps telling me. TikTok’s dead. Anyway,

[00:03:54] Ray: Well, what’s

[00:03:55] Cameron: this is, this is a really, I don’t know, um, uh, shorter, shorter form content.

[00:04:00] Ray: Just a tick. Just a tick. Tick. Tick.

[00:04:03] Cameron: just the tip, just the tip. That’s what it’s going to be. Tip, tip, tip top is going to be called. Just the

[00:04:09] Ray: We’re going to be rich.

[00:04:12] Cameron: I found this, um, really interesting to dive into because I think what we’re looking at here is a whole bunch of conjoined interests.

[00:04:25] Cameron: When, when you do the Quibono. Follow the money, who benefits? There’s a whole bunch of parties, I think, that benefit from this, overlapping interests, conjoined interests. So, and I, because obviously we’re trying to answer the question, well, why is this? Well, I mean, okay, so there’s the official story, which is China bad, China spying, etc, etc.

[00:04:48] Ray: Right.

[00:04:49] Cameron: If we accept that, that, at least, if that is true at all, at all. As the reason for it, it’s only one of the reasons for it, and you start to look at who benefits, or who would benefit from this. It becomes quite fascinating. There’s a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, I think. But, before we talk about the US, uh, Tony, are you aware of the Australian, uh, calls to ban TikTok coming out of the coalition’s cyber security spokesperson, Senator James Patterson?

[00:05:21] Tony: I am. Yeah, I actually, actually found a list of all the countries in the world that have banned TikTok. I’m just trying to find it now, but they fall into two camps. One’s like in Australia, because TikTok’s banned for government employees in Australia, which it is across all the five I’s. So, Canada. New Zealand, us, England, I think India’s the fifth member, anyway, they’re all banned on government issued phones and tablets.

[00:05:48] Tony: And then there are other countries who generally have a problem with China, anyway, countries like Pakistan, Taiwan, Nepal, who have banned TikTok as well. So, you know, that’s It’s a thing, but I agree with you, Cam. I think this is one of the, this is a case of, you know, there’s a hundred or a thousand issues crossing the desks of politicians all the time.

[00:06:14] Tony: But as soon as someone with a bit of money spots one and thinks, I don’t really care about TikTok, but I can get behind this because it suits me. That’s the one that gets prevalence and gets traction. And, uh, so I think you’re right. I think, um, I think it, you know, the traditional line is a media hype.

[00:06:30] Tony: Social media because it’s stolen their news feed and subscribers are down because they’re going to, they get free news from Google, they get free news from Meta or TikTok or whatever. So they hate it. Um, so it’s a divide and conquer strategy by them, but also too, if ByteDance has to divest, which is kind of an interesting strategy to take by the government.

[00:06:51] Tony: No, we don’t want to get rid of TikTok, you just have to sell it. Well, who’s going to buy it? It’s probably Facebook. So you get concentration in the social media space. You’ve got concentration in the traditional media space and they do a deal when everyone’s happy. So that’s, that’s what I think is behind all this.

[00:07:06] Cameron: Yeah, I agree, Tony, and I think there’s some other parties there, but the large media companies is definitely, I think, one of them that has an interest in this. But just getting back to the Australian guy, I had a laugh at this, Senator James Patterson, who’s been on this, you know, for a couple of years. He, um, said that, uh, data on the more than 8 million Australians who use TikTok could be used to build a very sophisticated picture of our society.

[00:07:32] Ray: Hmm.

[00:07:32] Cameron: the fear. They might build a very sophisticated I was thinking, well, they could just watch Neighbours. Are we going to ban China from watching Neighbours? I mean, like, he won’t and he also is talking about TikTok having alternative ownership, so. I mean, just the fact that China would need to Our number one trading partner, who owns half of the country now, would need to use TikTok to develop a very sophisticated picture of our society, I find.

[00:08:04] Cameron: Just

[00:08:04] Tony: Yeah, or they’re trained.

[00:08:05] Cameron: statement to make.

[00:08:06] Tony: And the other argument I’ve heard is it’s going to be used by China to train its AI. in um, English language. I’m like, mate, if you’re not trying an AI based on Australians watching TikTok, it’s gotta be a very skewed picture. Good luck to you,

[00:08:21] Cameron: here’s one of the main arguments I had against the official narrative of this, is when you drill down into it, there seems to be very little backing it up. So the official story, of course, is, you know, China’s spying, or might spy, or could be spying on Americans. But, when they had congressional hearings and the CEO of TikTok was on the, on the, you know, the, the, whatever it is, what do you want when you’re being in a congressional, he’s not on the stand, but, he’s being, he’s being questioned, he kept saying to the Congresswoman I saw, Or a senator who was challenging him.

[00:08:57] Cameron: He was like, I’ve seen no evidence that this is actually happening. Do you have any? She was just going, oh, I find it very hard to believe. And he kept saying, well, where’s the evidence? She’s going, well, I’m just sure there is. And so I, in nothing that I saw, was there any evidence? But anyway, we’ll get into that.

[00:09:14] Cameron: So a bit of background for people that are confused about this, because I was. Trump. So this started under Trump back in 2020. Trump said he was gonna ban TikTok, and he signed an executive order in 2020 saying he was gonna ban TikTok, gave them a period of months in which to either sell their business or do something, um, as well as WeChat, wasn’t just TikTok, it was also WeChat, and he also had the thing with Huawei, Huawei.

[00:09:46] Cameron: where he was banning them and they, the Canadians grabbed the chief financial officer or something of your way at the time. Um, the Chinese government at the time called it a smash and grab forced sale and, and I, I tend to agree with that today. I think that’s what this is at the end of the day. I think it’s a smash and grab.

[00:10:06] Cameron: They’re basically just trying to figure out a way to crush TikTok and steal it, you know, for a, buy it in a fire sale. Um, they, the, the TikTok fought against Trump in the U. S. with this. They claimed he was doing it as retaliation for TikTok campaigns against his reelection. And they were given a preliminary injunction by the courts against Trump’s order.

[00:10:36] Cameron: So they, the, the court stopped his order and then he left government. So it all kind of, you know, fell off the radar sort of in January 2021 when Biden was sworn in. About six months later, Biden signed an executive order revoking Trump’s ban on TikTok, but ordering the Secretary of Commerce to investigate the app to determine if it did indeed pose a threat to U.

[00:11:04] Cameron: S. national security. Now, we did some stories about this at the time, I remember a few years ago, and one of the things that, um, we found at the time was that Facebook, or Meta, Facebook’s parent company now, Zuckerberg, had paid, uh, Public relations firm that had previously worked for the Republicans to, uh, according to, I’m reading this from the Washington Post’s article.

[00:11:31] Cameron: This is going back to March, 2022. It said, Facebook parent company Meta is paying one of the biggest Republican consulting firms in the country to orchestrate a nationwide campaign seeking to turn the public against TikTok. The campaign Includes placing op-eds and letters to the editor in major regional news outlets promoting dubious stories about alleged TikTok trends that actually originated on Facebook, and drawing and pushing to draw political reporters and local politicians into helping take down its biggest competitor.

[00:12:04] Cameron: These bare knuckle tactics, long commonplace in the world of politics, have become increasingly noticeable within a tech industry where companies vie for cultural relevance and come at a time when Facebook is under pressure to win back young. So we, you know, we know that Meta is running a campaign and whenever you see this, situation where claims are being made, but when you ask for evidence of the claims, there are none.

[00:12:34] Cameron: And people just go, you know, don’t look into my eyes. Don’t look into my eyes. Don’t look into my eyes. Don’t look around my eyes. Look into my eyes. Look at my eyes. It immediately, I’m like, Oh, okay, what’s going on here? And then you combine that with Meder, among others, probably are running a massive. PR campaign trying to convince, you know, a lobby government to do this.

[00:12:55] Ray: yeah.

[00:12:56] Cameron: starts to smell, it starts to smell very quickly, very, uh, badly. So anyway, so, uh, Biden did this thing, um, said that they had to, the Secretary of Commerce had to investigate it and that’s been going on. Now, meanwhile, late last year, the state of Montana banned it, but a federal judge Again, stopped it, called the measure unconstitutional.

[00:13:19] Cameron: So then, now they’re trying to do it via Congress. They’ve got this thing called the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act

[00:13:27] Ray: Wow.

[00:13:29] Cameron: that passed 352 to 65, as Ray was indicating before. Now, and this is interesting, they’ve done this before. Now, um, I know you would have followed this much more closely than I did, um, Ray, but in March of 2020, they forced the Chinese owners of Grindr to sell the application, um, because of its connection to China.

[00:13:57] Ray: Can I just say, worst day of my life.

[00:14:00] Tony: Is that why Ray’s smoking a pipe now?

[00:14:03] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Tony: He’s thinking

[00:14:03] Ray: That’s all I got. That’s all I got to do with my hands.

[00:14:07] Cameron: yeah, and your

[00:14:07] Tony: And your mouth.

[00:14:08] Cameron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:10] Ray: Thanks, Tony. Thanks.

[00:14:12] Cameron: Tony’s just slid right into the, uh, right into the tone of this podcast. So easily, isn’t he?

[00:14:19] Ray: little too easy.

[00:14:25] Cameron: So, uh, a Chinese company called Kunlun, Had acquired a hundred percent ownership of Grindr. Uh, well, it was 98. 59 percent actually of the company. They had to sell it, uh, because of, you know, basically the government came after them. They, this is great. They sold it to a US based company called San Vincente Acquisition LLC, March 2020 at a valuation of 608.

[00:14:51] Cameron: 5 million. Less than 18 months later, Grindr went public on the New York Stock Exchange. Guess what the valuation was at that point?

[00:15:05] Ray: Bye.

[00:15:06] Cameron: 1 billion dollars. Went from 608 million to 2. 1 billion dollars in under 18 months. November 2022, they went public. Now the way they went public is great. It was, they didn’t IPO.

[00:15:20] Cameron: They, it was via a SPAC. Tony, explain to everyone what a SPAC is.

[00:15:27] Tony: You can’t say that anymore, Cam. No, it’s a special acquisition, special acquisition, special acquisition company. So there was a thing back in the last sort of tech boom, especially around COVID, where In Australia you couldn’t do it, but in America you could, so it’s called listing a cash box. So basically it’s taking a fund, which doesn’t have anything in it, just the cash that’s been put into it by investors, and then IPO ing it, listing it on the exchange in the US.

[00:16:00] Tony: I think the law allowed them to have, I think, two years before they had to invest and buy something. And that’s one of the reasons why tech companies went for a run around that COVID time, was because you had all this money sloshing around that had two years to find something to acquire, and they were overpaying for things, basically.

[00:16:20] Cameron: It’s like the craziest fucking story. The way these things work, people just sink, you know, a couple hundred billion dollars into a vehicle, float it, it’s got no business, no cash flow, no nothing, but they go, Eh, we’ll buy something. And the deal was, yeah, you had a period of time you had to buy something, otherwise you had to give the money back to investors. So, um, a particular SPAC at the time called TIGA, T I G A Acquisition Corp, based in Singapore, uh, Why? Hmm, who knows. Um, acquired Grindr, and then, um, you know, it was publicly listed, like, bang,

[00:17:02] Tony: Mm-Hmm.

[00:17:03] Cameron: Um, now, I went into details. Who owns San Vincente Acquisition? Who owned Tiger? Surprisingly, Uh, I’d buy the same guy, um, a guy called Raymond Zage, who’s, um, now got something to do with Australia, according to his Twitter feed, but, um, he was the founder and CEO of Tiger Acquisition Corp, and also part of the San Vincente Partners Consortium that acquired it, um, so they, It, the shares, when it, when it went public, the shares went from 10 bucks to 70 bucks. And then there was a lot of selling and it quickly dropped to 4. 60. But

[00:17:50] Ray: when I’d get in.

[00:17:51] Cameron: where it’s been ever since. Yeah. No, you would’ve got in at 70 and it’s going to the moon and it dropped down to 4. 60.

[00:18:02] Ray: Sell, sell, sell!

[00:18:03] Tony: Well, and I guess the other question is, cam, we can’t track this, but did, did Raymond make many donations to a political, uh, party in the US to one of the packs over there?

[00:18:15] Cameron: yeah, possibly, I mean, I, I didn’t drill down that far, you can track some of that stuff. The point here I wanted to make is that, um, the, the, the Chinese owners were planning on floating grinder. Um, couldn’t. Shut down by the US government. So then Americans were able to acquire Grinder, bump up the valuation, float it.

[00:18:43] Cameron: Somebody sold a shit ton of shares at 70 bucks. Um, I’m not, I don’t know who, but I’m not casting aspersions, but somebody sold a shitload of shares and it was only like, uh, 500, 000 shares available in the public float. I mean, the rest were all, you know, Owned by the people behind the acquisition, the SPAC.

[00:19:08] Cameron: And, um, yeah, and, and a lot of people lost a lot of money. Obviously the people that bought in between 10 and 70 were deeply underwater and a lot, and, and the people that own this thing made a lot of money.

[00:19:21] Cameron: So, my point is that we’ve seen this before and, and in that case, it does very much look like it was a smash and grab to get this Chinese IP floated and somebody made a shit ton of money out of it. So the question then is what’s this really all about, the TikTok one? So, national security, as Tony pointed out, It’s already banned on government phones all around the world.

[00:19:41] Cameron: Um, corporations, if they have concern about security, can ban it from their phones. What’s really the national security concern when it comes to consumers phones? There’s this idea that, oh, they, they, they can develop this picture of what Americans are talking about on their phone, or they can maybe malware in the app.

[00:20:05] Cameron: But as part of the whole Trump thing. TikTok spent a shit ton of money to migrate all of their US customer data over to Oracle. And it’s a thing called Project Texas, because Oracle’s based in Texas. Um, and they’ve already done all of that. They’ve transferred 100%, supposedly, of their US customer data to Oracle’s cloud.

[00:20:30] Cameron: So, the first question, and, but, but now they’re claiming the, the Congressional hearings and all the Senators are claiming, We have leaked reports that the CCP is still getting access to all of U. S. customer data. So the first question I would have is, great, we’ll put the Oracle, put Larry Ellison, put the Oracle team on the stand and ask them, Well, how are they getting access to this?

[00:20:55] Cameron: You’re supposed to be controlling the security of all of this. Funnily, Uh, no one’s asking Oracle to provide evidence that the Oracle system that was put into place to protect US data is failing. The only thing I could see, uh, like no one from Oracle in the congressional hearings, uh, I think it was, uh, New York Times article said they reached out to Oracle for comment and Oracle declined. So surely if, if they’ve, if TikTok have spent a ton of migrating everything over to Oracle to protect the security of the US data, and if they’re suggesting that’s not working, that’s on Oracle.

[00:21:40] Ray: Yeah.

[00:21:41] Cameron: They should be forcing Oracle to divest its shares. But there’s no talk about that. I mean, unless I’m missing something.

[00:21:48] Cameron: Did you see anything about, Oracle being questioned about why the CCP is still getting access to US data?

[00:21:54] Tony: nothing.

[00:21:55] Cameron: would be the obvious question, right?

[00:21:57] Tony: of articles about that particular issue and, and uh, there was one from USA, a story from USA Today, and the quote is, uh, these threats are not theoretical, that’s the threat of data access by the CCP. In 2022, ByteDance admitted its China based employees brazenly access sensitive TikTok geolocation data to monitor American journalists.

[00:22:22] Tony: And they go on to say, this and subsequent revelations make clear that TikTok and other Chinese technology platforms are morphing into fully fledged state instruments of surveillance.

[00:22:33] Cameron: But that was before they migrated all over to Oracle.

[00:22:36] Tony: right. Well, I was gonna, I was gonna make the point that, um, do they, did the Chinese government really need to access TikTok data to track people?

[00:22:48] Ray: Thank you.

[00:22:50] Tony: If they do, you know,

[00:22:52] Ray: Yes.

[00:22:57] Tony: they don’t have ByteDance’s data, but they seem to be pretty good at tracking down and surveilling people.

[00:23:03] Tony: So I think it’s a bit of a spurious argument myself.

[00:23:07] Cameron: I agree. And, but I, I want to point, I, I get the security concerns. I’m not, I’m not, Pissing on the idea of, you know, security concerns and also the idea of foreign media, foreign media ownership. If you accept that TikTok is a media

[00:23:24] Tony: Mm hmm.

[00:23:26] Cameron: and a lot of people, like apparently half of America, has TikTok on their phones and particularly with younger 20s, they’re on TikTok all the time.

[00:23:35] Cameron: So it is a place where they get news. I mean, mostly. Dancing, and lip syncing, and comedy, but, but,

[00:23:45] Ray: That’s how I like my news. Yeah. That’s how I like my news. Yeah. Today.

[00:23:49] Cameron: to have, we used to have foreign media ownership laws. In Australia, until former Prime Minister John Howard scrapped them in 2007. And just, you know, I amped up cross media ownership, so you can only owe 2 out of 3.

[00:24:04] Cameron: And there was this, when that happened, there was this big, um, gobbling up of media in Australia. We now, you know, Most of our media is owned by either News Limited, Rupert Murdoch, or Nine Entertainment. Um, is News Limited a foreign owned entity? Um, I think probably it is. Rupert’s an American citizen. And that leads me to the next one.

[00:24:34] Cameron: America used to have laws against foreign media ownership as well, which is why Rupert Murdoch needed to become an American citizen when he started acquiring television stations to build Fox back in the 90s. He owned newspapers in the U. S. before that, uh, but in order to own TV stations, he needed to be an American citizen.

[00:24:53] Cameron: But then they got rid of that. The U. S. got rid of that 10 years ago as well. So 10 years ago, America said, you know what? We don’t need to worry about foreign media ownership anymore. We can scrap the foreign media ownership laws. Um, But now all of a sudden, we need to ban TikTok because it’s owned by a foreign adversary, which is a whole other thing.

[00:25:15] Cameron: I wanted to ask, when did China become an adversary? I thought they were your number one trading partner slash manufacturing outsourcer. Now all of a sudden they’re a foreign adversary. I guess they can be both. By the way, up until last year, Forbes, Magazine slash website was owned by a Hong Kong company.

[00:25:38] Cameron: Um, Hong Kong was also China. Um, but they only hold a minority stake today. There’s a German company, Axel Springer, that owns Business Insider and Politico. Um, so you still have, you know, foreign media or media organizations in the U. S. owned by foreign companies.

[00:25:59] Tony: And you can reverse Well you can reverse your argument about Rupert Murdoch and say he’s an Australian. I mean is it, if, if those other companies you mentioned, if their CEOs took out US citizens, if, if Xi Jinping took out US citizenship, he’d be able to buy, uh, media companies in the US. I mean, it’s a bit of a technicality.

[00:26:18] Cameron: Yeah, yeah, they might, uh, they, they might have to take a hard look at that if you try to become an American citizen, or any Chinese, any Chinese citizen. Could do it.

[00:26:28] Ray: right.

[00:26:29] Cameron: So, look, the whole security concerns thing I find, again, and when the CEO of TikTok asked them to present evidence, they just sort of, uh, rolled their eyes, they couldn’t provide him with anything, so, I haven’t seen any evidence for this, apart from, there were some claims that, uh, there were some leaked emails from TikTok employees saying that the CCP was still looking at it, But, you know, how much of that is real versus Meta’s PR campaign is difficult to tell,

[00:27:03] Tony: Well, there’s an interesting article I came across when I was doing research on this. It’s by our old friend Alan Kohler in The Guardian. And he, he, um, is Rallying against TikTok, I guess. I guess, you know, traditional media person rallying against TikTok. What’s new there? But he paints two reasons for that.

[00:27:24] Tony: One is the TikTok pixel, which he, uh, which he says, I’ll quote, All social media collect web browsing data on their users for advertisers to better target their ads. And while TikTok does that, it also gathers email addresses, phone numbers, locations, the destination of phone and video calls, the device’s metadata and more.

[00:27:48] Tony: It’s like a listening bug in the person’s home, as well as a GPS tag in their car, without their knowledge or consent. Permission is given in the T’s and C’s, of course, but no one ever reads them. So, he’s saying that TikTok goes further than the other pixels that are used by Whatever else. Um, but you know, the counterargument to that is, he’s probably got Alexa in his phone, listening to everything he says anyway, so,

[00:28:14] Cameron: which

[00:28:14] Tony: I’m not buying that one.

[00:28:16] Cameron: built in

[00:28:16] Tony: Um, but the other point he made, and this gets back to your, why is the conservative coalition in Australia against TikTok, um, he talks about, um, the fact that there is a, He says, right now, TikTok appears to be favouring pro harmless videos, and during last year’s voice referendum campaign in Australia, it appeared to favour the no case.

[00:28:36] Tony: So he’s also mounting the argument that TikTok is biased. And I think that’s what’s getting the conservative side of politics in Australia excited about TikTok and it being banned.

[00:28:47] Cameron: So that’s the second argument that is being made in the U. S. is that their TikTok are using their algorithm to influence the views of young Americans about political issues like Ukraine, like Gaza, and ostensibly the upcoming presidential election. So there, uh, the Department of Energy and Commerce that Biden told to, to do an investigation of this, I read their report.

[00:29:18] Cameron: One of the things they said was a recent office of the director of National Intelligence, ODNI report showed that the CCP was using TikTok to target political candidates and influenced to 2022 election cycle. But I went to the ODNI. Report that they referenced and when you go to that report, it just says that TikTok accounts run by a PRC propaganda arm reportedly targeted candidates from both political parties during the U.

[00:29:51] Cameron: S. midterm election cycle in 2022. So they’re not like, so when you read the, the energy and commerce thing, it suggests that they’re hacking TikTok to influence stuff. No, they just set up some fucking accounts where they were doing TikTok videos, which they could do if it was owned by Americans. Like,

[00:30:10] Ray: Yes.

[00:30:11] Tony: Which happens on Meta. I

[00:30:14] Cameron: everything.

[00:30:15] Tony: welcome, you know, recall back to the Cambridge Analytica controversy during the Trump campaign. It’s the same deal.

[00:30:22] Cameron: And again, this is, this is sort of my point here, is when the department that has been appointed by Biden to investigate this for the last three years, in their official report, building a case for it, that’s the best they can come up with? And they, and they kind of give you, like, their report goes, well, the ODNI found that, But when you go and read the report, it’s a fucking nothing burger in the report.

[00:30:53] Ray: Whoop!

[00:30:53] Cameron: just the skinny, if that’s the best they could come up with after three years, is well, they set up some fake accounts on TikTok to try and influence, like really? That’s it. That’s what you’ve got.

[00:31:08] Tony: But also too, my rebuttal to the alleged bias with TikTok is, thank God, because the mainstream media is full of pro Israel stories. So, of course, you know, the other side is going to get squeezed in too. Doing TikTok videos or, or, you know, making their points known through the Guardian or whatever else they do.

[00:31:28] Tony: Of course they are. There’s no room for it in mainstream media.

[00:31:31] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:31:33] Ray: Well, it’s like you said, um, like you said, just, excuse me, it’s like you said a second ago, Cam, it’s a, it’s a sexy headline with a nothing burger inside the actual details, and that’s where you have to go is check out the details. So, yeah, it’s tantalizing as long as you don’t read the report. And on a side note, didn’t Rupert just recently get married?

[00:31:52] Ray: I’d like to wish him and

[00:31:54] Tony: He’s about to.

[00:31:55] Ray: bro a good bow too. I hope they have, um, all the happiness and, and for decades. Decades to

[00:32:01] Cameron: many happy

[00:32:02] Tony: He’s marrying a, he’s engaged to a Russian. So,

[00:32:06] Ray: that should be illegal. That should be illegal. I’m sorry. I don’t know what, I don’t know anything about it. I’m sure

[00:32:12] Tony: your media, your foreign media ownership laws, they’re like a wet paper bag over there. Come on,

[00:32:17] Ray: if you got enough money, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t freaking matter. And going back to,

[00:32:22] Cameron: media ownership laws. That’s my point. They scrapped

[00:32:24] Ray: we got rid of, well, they get in the way of making money, and that’s what America is all about. And going back to Cam’s question about China, um, And I think we’ve touched on this before, but World War II and the Cold War really shaped America.

[00:32:37] Ray: We don’t really know where we stand, unless we have an enemy. They don’t have to be a real enemy, they just have to be a declared by us enemy. Then we have something to focus on and it justifies our massive military budgets. But, again, the um, The reverberations of Cold War, uh, Cold War history will be with America for a long time.

[00:32:58] Ray: If it’s not China, it’s gonna be somebody else. We have to have an adversary because if you don’t, then you’re just left with trying to have a good life and America doesn’t do that very well. We need to be fighting. We need to be pitted against someone.

[00:33:15] Cameron: Well, I can tell you who your adversaries are because I looked it up. So, as I said before, this new congressional act is saying that they’re gonna ban any app that’s owned or controlled by a foreign adversary. My first question is, when did China become a foreign adversary? I couldn’t figure out. Um, when, the closest I can come, I could come, to finding out when China was first declared a foreign adversary by the United States was during the Trump administration.

[00:33:47] Cameron: Uh, to the best of my knowledge, that’s when they suddenly decided China was a foreign adversary. Now, according to the definitions, a foreign adversary is a nation or an entity that poses a strategic, military, or economic threat, to To another country’s national security, interests, or values.

[00:34:06] Ray: Right.

[00:34:08] Cameron: So, any country that’s competing with you, economically, is a threat to your economic interests.

[00:34:15] Cameron: And therefore, could

[00:34:17] Cameron: be, could be declared a foreign adversary, seems very loose sort of an argument. Now the US, of course, is a strategic military and economic threat to every country on the planet, so I hereby announce that Australia has declared the US as a foreign adversary.

[00:34:37] Ray: Right back at ya.

[00:34:39] Cameron: now, I want to, I know people are going to be thinking this, um, Steve Sammartino says this all the time, he’s very anti China, married to a Chinese woman.

[00:34:48] Cameron: He says China already blocks many foreign media outlets, social media platforms, other websites, Facebook, Twitter, Google, you know, the BBC, CNN, Wall Street Journal, Time, New York Times are all banned in China.

[00:35:03] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:35:04] Cameron: Uh, Reddit, Snapchat, et cetera, et cetera. They’re all banned in China. So he is always like, well, fuck China.

[00:35:11] Cameron: We can ban China. China bans Western apps. We can ban China’s apps and it’s all good. Fair enough, we can do that. But when they do that, we accuse them of censorship. It’s an autocratic, they don’t believe in freedom of speech. It’s autocratic, it’s outrageous when we do it.

[00:35:32] Ray: Yes.

[00:35:33] Cameron: do it, we go, well, it’s national security.

[00:35:37] Ray: it’s measured. It’s measured. It’s thoughtful.

[00:35:40] Cameron: when they do it, they say it’s national security. You’re trying to, you know, Western media organizations are trying to infiltrate our society. We say it’s outrageous. When they do it, we say, eh, you know, it’s fine. So there’s this thing called the code of foreign, uh, CFR. And they have a determination of foreign adversaries.

[00:36:04] Cameron: Here’s what it says. The secretary has determined that the following foreign governments or foreign non government persons have engaged in a long term pattern or serious instances of conduct significantly adverse to the national security of the United States or security and safety of the United States persons and therefore constitute foreign adversaries solely for the purposes of the executive order this rule and any subsequent rule.

[00:36:29] Cameron: Here’s the list. The People’s Republic of China, including the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Two, the Republic of Cuba. Three, the Islamic Republic of Iran. Four, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, aka North Korea. Five, the Russian Federation. Six, Venezuelan politician Nicolas Maduro. Just Nicolas Maduro.

[00:36:54] Cameron: The rest of Venezuela’s fine, it’s just Nicolas

[00:36:57] Ray: lovely people.

[00:36:59] Cameron: The other name, the unofficial name of this list, is the list of countries the US failed to overthrow in the last 75 years.

[00:37:06] Ray: Yeah, we don’t like that. We don’t lose

[00:37:08] Tony: ha ha.

[00:37:09] Tony: ha.

[00:37:10] Cameron: You’re now a foreign adversary. Cuba, for fuck’s sake, what? What is Cuba’s military or economic threat against the United States? Like, is it Cuban cigars? They’re trying to infiltrate the country with good tobacco? Well aged tobacco? I don’t know.

[00:37:29] Ray: That’s the best I got is the cigars. Yes.

[00:37:33] Cameron: Okay,

[00:37:33] Cameron: so

[00:37:34] Ray: don’t like to lose. Yeah.

[00:37:37] Cameron: up with. Um, number one, tech companies. I’m gonna, I’m gonna drill down into these a little bit, but tech companies. Big tech companies, particularly Meta, the Military Industrial Congressional Complex, the MIC, Jewish lobbyists, and, uh, large media organizations.

[00:37:59] Cameron: And the politicians that get funded by all of the above, right? That’s who stands to benefit as five, five basic, uh, conjoined groups here, I think. Now,

[00:38:12] Ray: brokers of America. Yeah.

[00:38:14] Cameron: yeah. Um, you know, we were talking about Meta’s campaign against him before. ByteDance, TikTok’s parent company, ByteDance, is often described as the world’s most valuable non public startup.

[00:38:30] Cameron: Last year it was valued at 300 billion.

[00:38:34] Tony: Oof.

[00:38:34] Cameron: publicly listed, but they plan to, they plan to IPO in China. Um, but of course, if they lose the U S market, that’s probably going to be more difficult. Uh, but if the U S if some U S organization, it’s not just Meta, there’s also the Trump’s former treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, who, you know, he’s talking about putting together.

[00:39:02] Cameron: He said, he’s already got a group of investors ready to jump in and buy this. Well, yeah, of course you do.

[00:39:08] Cameron: Wow.

[00:39:08] Ray: me last week. Yeah.

[00:39:09] Cameron: Trump was trying to ban it and Trump’s former Treasury Secretary is ready to buy it.

[00:39:15] Tony: Well, Trump’s flip flopped. He’s in favor of it now. He doesn’t want ByteDance to be sold.

[00:39:20] Cameron: we will talk about that too, I’ve got stuff on that, we’ll talk about

[00:39:23] Tony: do I.

[00:39:24] Cameron: Right, so, most valuable non public startup in the world, um,

[00:39:31] Tony: you need to add, sorry, excuse me Cam, you need to add Wall Street investment bankers to your list because if ByteDance lists in China, they don’t get a taste, so they would be against it too.

[00:39:44] Cameron: yeah, good point, your Goldman Sachses, your Morgan Stanleys, all those guys. We’re going to underwrite the, but it’ll probably be a SPAC anyway. They don’t have to do a traditional IPO. It’ll just be a SPAC. Um, in terms of the threat to Meta, I looked up a number of, uh, studies on where TikTok ranks, um, in terms of social media, penetration, hours, all that kind of stuff.

[00:40:11] Cameron: Globally, they come in at number three. After Facebook and YouTube, but, uh, they, they, they sometimes appear lower down in the rankings, like number five, but that’s when the studies break out various Facebook properties. So you have Facebook, Facebook Messenger, Instagram, WhatsApp, et cetera, which are all owned by Facebook.

[00:40:34] Cameron: So if you merge them all together, it’s number three after Facebook and YouTube. Um, it’s the fourth most popular social platform in the US, but Again, the top three are all Facebook properties. So it’s actually number two in the U S and as I said before, almost half of the population in the U S are on Facebook.

[00:40:57] Cameron: And obviously it’s a major threat to Facebook’s revenues. If it’s gobbling up. As much, uh, user minutes as it is, user attention. So, it’s a threat to Facebook, and it tends to be capturing a lot of the younger demo, which is probably a pretty big advertising demo. Facebook’s playing back well with its, it’s like, reels and that kind of stuff, but it’s got a long way to go.

[00:41:23] Tony: That’s what I was going to say. Imitations of, the fact that Facebook launched Reels suggests that they see TikTok as a threat.

[00:41:30] Cameron: Yeah! And, you know, we know basic capitalism is, if you can’t beat them, buy them or kill them, right? And they’re trying to do one or the other here. They’re trying to kill it or buy it. And I love the, the US politicians position on this. This is also in the secretary of the energy and commerce paper.

[00:41:50] Cameron: They’re like, Hey, we’re not trying to ban TikTok. Don’t come after me saying we’re trying to ban it. We’re not trying to ban it. We’re just trying to force them to sell it. It can still be around. If China doesn’t, if the ByteDance or the CCP won’t allow them to sell it, that’s on them. That’s not, that’s not about us, that’s on them.

[00:42:11] Cameron: By the way, Chinese government has said that any sale of TikTok would have to comply with their law on tech exports, exporting Chinese IP, and they may just shut it down and say no. Like the US government is preventing American companies from selling chip technology. To an AI technology to China, China can go, fuck you.

[00:42:35] Cameron: You’re not getting out TikTok. And then it just, yeah, just ceases to exist.

[00:42:41] Tony: That’s, that’s an interesting curveball. Where does the Oracle data sit then?

[00:42:45] Cameron: Yeah, who owns the

[00:42:46] Cameron: Oracle

[00:42:48] Tony: and is there a

[00:42:50] Cameron: They don’t have, they don’t have the algorithm.

[00:42:52] Tony: if we if we see Steve Zuckerberg walking out with a very big hard drive from, from the data

[00:42:58] Ray: One into each arm. Yeah. Tackle that guy. Yeah.

[00:43:04] Cameron: So drilling down into, um, some of these other, so the, the military industrial congressional complex. So if, if TikTok, if the content on TikTok is turning young Americans in particular against continual support of the war in Ukraine, against continual support of Israel and the genocide that they’re committing in Gaza.

[00:43:26] Cameron: Then that’s a threat to the military industrial congressional complex. I didn’t call it that. Um, Eisenhower called it that. If you have an issue with that, take it up with, uh, President Eisenhower. Um, And you know, I tend to, as listeners of the show know, I mean, my, my, my basic premise of the way that the U.

[00:43:47] Cameron: S. economy works is that it’s largely driven by the military industrial congressional complex. These are the issues that tend to drive a lot of the big ticket items. Like wars, you know, Ray, you said earlier that we need an enemy. That’s because the M. I. C. needs money. And the easiest way of extracting money out of the U.

[00:44:06] Cameron: S. Treasury, uh, It’s to say, Oh, we need to go and fight this war over here. Or we need to prepare for a war over there. You know, you know, the, the Pentagon’s budget is like one third of the US budget. And that money goes straight from US taxpayers to all of the tens of thousands of companies that, uh, benefit from Pentagon contracts.

[00:44:28] Cameron: So. Um, I, I see that this is a threat. Any, any media platform that’s a threat to U. S. ‘s geopolitical warfare, be it military or economic warfare, um, needs to be shut down. The Jewish lobbyists will get to. Um, Tony’s talked about, that’s part of the whole Gaza thing. Tony’s talked about large media oil goods and Wall Street bankers.

[00:44:52] Cameron: But when you get any situation where you have multiple, very powerful interests. All having a united view. You know what it reminds me of? The Kennedy assassination. we, when you look at, you know, who killed Kennedy, if you don’t believe the official cover story, you know that, well, the Mafia wanted Kennedy dead because they felt like he fucked them.

[00:45:16] Cameron: They got him elected and then he fucked them on Cuba. Yeah, thumbs up. Um, LBJ wanted him dead. Because he was about to kick LBJ off the ticket. He was running for re election. They hated Johnson. They were going to kick him off the ticket. Johnson’s lifelong, when you read the biographies on Johnson, um, you know, his lifelong dream was to be president and he was in his 60s.

[00:45:39] Cameron: He knew this was his last shot. So, he needed to, you know, he needed to stay on the ticket. Best way to stay on the ticket was to have Kennedy dead. Um, the CIA hated Kennedy because he was talking about, um, defunding the CIA because they fucked him over Cuba. Um, the Cuban emigres wanted him dead because he gave up on overthrowing Castro in Cuba and pulled out.

[00:46:06] Cameron: Um, the, the American military wanted him dead because they felt he’d fucked them on Cuba as well. Uh, uh, J. Edgar Hoover hated him. Because he was, you know, trying to fuck with Hoover. Um, he was one of many presidents that tried to fuck with Hoover and his brother as well, Bobby. The two, the Kennedys hated Hoover and vice versa.

[00:46:29] Cameron: Um, cause Hoover was still saying the mafia didn’t exist. It was made up. And Bobby Kennedy was running his own parallel investigation in the mafia and showing that Hoover had basically been, um, covering up the existence of the mafia for decades. So you had all these different interests that hated the Kennedys and wanted the Kennedys gone.

[00:46:49] Cameron: Um, to what level were they all involved, uh, individually or, or colludingly in his assassination? I don’t think we’ll ever know, but certainly there was a lot of people that wanted him gone.

[00:47:03] Tony: you’ve got to throw JFK’s either arrogance or stupidity into it to get into an open topped car in LBJ’s home state

[00:47:13] Ray: Good point.

[00:47:14] Tony: and go for a drive in public with all these people against him, yeah.

[00:47:18] Cameron: yeah.

[00:47:20] Ray: think about that.

[00:47:21] Cameron: getting back to TikTok, a lot of these powerful interests want TikTok gone. Now, one of the things I’ve heard from Hunter, my son, who’s a TikToker, is that it’s all, he goes, it’s all about the election. But I don’t get that because it’s basically got bipartisan support. It’s not like the Democrats or the Republicans are siding on this.

[00:47:38] Cameron: They both seem to be, um, on board with this, except for Trump. The Republican presidential candidate is the one major Republican, I mean there’s also Rand Paul, we’ll talk about him in a second, and there’s a few outliers, in both the Democrats and the Republicans,

[00:47:57] Tony: yeah.

[00:47:57] Cameron: yeah, but it’s mostly bipartisan. Now, um, you’ve researched the Trump story, Tony?

[00:48:06] Tony: Yeah, well, so, uh, as you said before, Trump tried to do this when he was in, uh, in power, uh, and it fell over with a thing called the Berman Act, which, um, uh, they’re now saying they’ve learned from that, or the legislators are saying they’ve learned from that, and they’ll get round the Berman Act, um, in this, in this case.

[00:48:26] Tony: But, you know, what I, what I read in the research in this piece was that Trump had been lobbied by TikTok and convinced that he was Out polling Biden on TikTok and doing much better, and then therefore now was in favor of TikTok. So it’s the old, it’s the old story of, it’s the old story of when he, when he was empowering, his daughter used to say, put it in pictures, make it into a kid’s storybook, and put it in front of him. Otherwise, he’ll lose, he’ll lose attention. Yeah,

[00:48:57] Cameron: different story, but just to quote Trump first, he said if you get rid of TikTok, Facebook, and Zuckerschmuck, we’ll double their business. Zuckerschmuck

[00:49:08] Tony: got, I’ve got that, I’ve got that quote as well from last week, came out in opposition to the legislation, partly because he says it would help Facebook, which banned him from its platform for two years.

[00:49:19] Cameron: they are the true enemy of the people. But the other story is that his change of heart about TikTok came very shortly after he repaired his relationship with Republican mega donor Jeff Yass. Whose firm has a multi billion dollar stake in TikTok. Um, now Jeff Yass, you know, Jeff Yass, I’m sure Tony, he, he’s one of your heroes, Jeff Yass,

[00:49:48] Tony: No,

[00:49:48] Cameron: no?

[00:49:49] Tony: No, don’t don’t.

[00:49:51] Cameron: he will be one of your heroes after I tell you this story. The 65 year old Yass, who grew up in Queens, made his first riches when he and poker playing buddies from the State University of New York found ways to tilt horse racing odds in their favor.

[00:50:07] Tony: fantastic.

[00:50:08] Ray: Wow. Wow.

[00:50:15] Cameron: double A, uh, double S Tony. So he runs, he runs, uh, an investment firm called, uh, Susa International Group based outta Philadelphia. Um, he’s also in the advisory council of the Cato Institute. He’s the richest man in Pennsylvania, largest donor in the 2024 US election cycle. He’s donated 46 million to Republican groups and campaigns.

[00:50:45] Cameron: Um, the Sasquatch, the Sasquatch International Group invested in TikTok in 2001. They were one of the earliest investors. Um, So they’ve made, it was into ByteDance, I guess. So they’ve made a shit ton of money out of TikTok. I think they own about 15 percent now of ByteDance

[00:51:09] Tony: I think it’s important. I’m sorry to interrupt. It’s important to point out, though, in this situation, they’ll only make money if it sells or if it lists.

[00:51:16] Cameron: Yeah, good point. Yeah, but he is against the TikTok ban Um, and now so is Trump, after Yass had a meeting and agreed to support Trump, and then Trump changed his position on TikTok. Yass is also a major donor to Senator Rand Paul, who’s also come out against the TikTok ban. But, having said that, unlike Trump, Rand Paul’s position on things like this, freedom of speech, has been consistent over his political career, as was his father’s, Ron Paul.

[00:51:48] Cameron: So I don’t think there’s a correlation between, you know, Yass probably supports Paul because of Paul’s position on libertarian free speech and that kind of stuff. I don’t think Rand Paul’s switched his views. Trump, on the other hand, has obviously flip flopped on this. Um, but here’s the interesting thing, because I want to talk about the Jewish lobby.

[00:52:10] Cameron: Um, but Jeff Yass and his partners in Susquehanna are all Jews and major supporters of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, that’s interesting because as we said before, one of the big arguments that’s being made, uh, for the banning of TikTok is it’s influencing young Americans on their views of things like Israel and America’s funding and support of Israel, which is potentially going to impact.

[00:52:41] Cameron: Uh, Biden’s chances of re election. He’s got this massive amount of voters that are angry at him. Young voters angry at him about what’s happening in Gaza, but they probably aren’t going to vote for Trump either. So they probably just, you know, may not vote depending on how scared they are of another Trump victory.

[00:53:00] Cameron: But just sticking on Trump for a second. Um. Trump apparently doesn’t campaign on TikTok. Biden does, but MAGA figures are very support, uh, very, very popular on TikTok. Conservative comedians. I’ve never actually seen a conservative comedian. I don’t believe that such a thing exists, but I did read that there are conservative comedians, um,

[00:53:28] Ray: they’re not funny, or you just haven’t seen them?

[00:53:31] Cameron: I just don’t think you’re

[00:53:33] Tony: it used to be people like Dennis Leary and uh, who’s the guy now that, I forget, I forget their names, I don’t watch them. There are a couple out there.

[00:53:41] Cameron: The other Dennis, the guy who used to host, um, SNL’s, um, Weekend Update,

[00:53:47] Ray: Oh,

[00:53:47] Cameron: can’t remember his last name. Dennis, uh, yeah, whatever his name is. Guy with a beard. Yeah, he talks like that. Um, Donald Trump Jr. last year, Uh, ripped the idea of a TikTok ban saying it was government overreach and, uh, support from establishment of both parties and big tech.

[00:54:09] Cameron: He was all for it in 2020. Now, to do it would be government overreach. Tucker Carlson, who I have a newfound respect for, surprisingly, after his interview with Putin and then his interview on Lex Freeman. Did either of you, I know Tony and I did several hours on his Putin interview. Did you then listen to it?

[00:54:29] Cameron: Lex Freedman’s interview of Tucker Carlson,

[00:54:32] Tony: No, I don’t like Tucker Carlson.

[00:54:35] Cameron: but do you like Lex Freedman?

[00:54:36] Tony: No.

[00:54:38] Cameron: Okay. Well, why don’t you like Lex Freedman?

[00:54:42] Tony: Oh, I, I subscribed to his podcast and I forget now who it was, but he had some conservative. Jordan Peterson or someone like that, and I just went, no, forget it.

[00:54:51] Cameron: No, I didn’t listen to that one. Well, he did an interview with Tucker Carlson, which I listened to, not liking Tucker Carlson, and listened to the whole thing and at the end of it went, You know what? I agreed with at least half the things that Tucker Carlson said. Half the things that he said I thought were batshit crazy, but half the things he said I was like, yeah, I agree with that.

[00:55:09] Cameron: So, which surprised me because

[00:55:12] Ray: Yeah.

[00:55:12] Cameron: thought he was a complete tool. Um, but anyway, on this he has said that, uh, there was a hidden agenda. It’s a creepy, low IQ Chinese plot, but that does not mean that people trying to ban TikTok have your interests in mind, he said. And again, I tend to agree

[00:55:29] Tony: A creepy low IQ plot. That’s,

[00:55:32] Cameron: That’s what he says, I don’t agree with that bit.

[00:55:35] Cameron: But the bit about

[00:55:37] Tony: he’s standing from the lofty heights of a high IQ looking down on the low

[00:55:40] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:55:40] Tony: plot.

[00:55:43] Cameron: And the funny thing is, like, he’s very self deprecating in the Lex Friedman interview. He basically says, Listen, I’m not a very smart guy, I’m not a very good interviewer, I’m not, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m not very clever. Um, you know, he’s very self deprecating, which was interesting.

[00:56:00] Tony: And he’s being named as a potential VP for the Trump ticket as well.

[00:56:05] Ray: Oh, that would be sweet.

[00:56:07] Cameron: guy when he was at Fox writing internal emails saying Trump was a fucking idiot and he couldn’t, he couldn’t wait for Trump to be out of government because he was sick of interviewing him. How are they gonna, how are they gonna spin that?

[00:56:19] Tony: Uh, they don’t need to, it’s Trump, right? I’m gonna, I’m gonna sell TikTok, I’m gonna ban TikTok. No, I’m in favor of TikTok. It doesn’t matter. It’s just, it’s just, yeah.

[00:56:29] Cameron: voters, logic, reason, history, nothing

[00:56:32] Tony: No, no.

[00:56:34] Cameron: I want to talk about

[00:56:34] Cameron: the

[00:56:34] Ray: of the cult.

[00:56:36] Cameron: So I know, um, you know, particularly some of our Israeli, uh, listeners, and I gotta, I gotta, uh, shout out, I won’t name him, but the particular listener who I’ve corresponded a lot with in the past, I called him a Jewish listener in the past.

[00:56:51] Cameron: He said, Hey, I’m not Jewish. I live in Israel, but I’m not Jewish. My apologies. Israeli listeners, um, may have an issue with this, but the, here’s what I found. The, the progressive group Roots Action noted that AIPAC. Big Jewish lobbyist group in the U. S. is the largest donor to this bill’s author, Republican, uh, Mike Gallaher.

[00:57:13] Cameron: The Jewish Federations of North America, the umbrella organization that represents hundreds of Jewish communities, backs the bill. Um, the JFNA said the single most important issue to our Jewish communities today is the dramatic rise in anti Semitism. Our community understands that social media is a major driver of the drive in anti Semitism, and that TikTok is the worst offender by far.

[00:57:40] Cameron: Today’s vote showed the strong bipartisan support for ensuring that TikTok cannot continue to push hateful messages into our communities, and we urge the Senate to To quickly take up and pass this legislation. That was a quote from

[00:57:54] Tony: essentially,

[00:57:55] Cameron: CEO, Eric Fingerhut.

[00:57:58] Tony: me just butt in here because it’s not TikTok that’s driving the anti Jewish movement. or anti semitism, uh, that they’re talking about. It’s turning Gaza into a concentration camp that’s driving the anti semitism that people

[00:58:13] Cameron: always been a concentration camp. It’s always been a concentration camp. It’s the genocide in the concentration camp. Well, their argument is, okay, so the, like, it’s not, it’s not TikTok that’s creating the content. It’s, American and you know, Gaza, like a lot of the, um, TikTok feeds that I follow are citizen journalists in Gaza reporting on what’s happening in Gaza.

[00:58:42] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:58:42] Cameron: And these were people I followed before the war in Gaza as well. The, they were, you know, reporting on Gaza for years from TikTok. And of course, you know, they’ve been reporting on it. Some of them still alive. Some of them have been killed as part of this. Um, But what the, the accusation is that TikTok’s algorithm is presenting more anti Israel content to American audiences, uh, than pro Israel content.

[00:59:17] Cameron: Um, but again, you know, is there evidence for that? No.

[00:59:22] Tony: too, my understanding, very limited of how the TikTok algorithm works, is it gives you what you want to see, based on what you’ve seen before. So TikTok isn’t sitting, Xi Jinping isn’t sitting there going, in front of the keyboard going, Oh, bro,

[00:59:37] Tony: pro Palestinian TikTok reels to North Dakota now, ding, push the button.

[00:59:42] Tony: No one’s

[00:59:42] Ray: And, and, and, go ahead. Sorry.

[00:59:44] Cameron: my mother, my mother sent me a message like a day or two ago, um, saying, I think the universe is trying to tell me something, uh, YouTube just suggested a video by that same neuroscientist who was presenting it with wacky ideas that I watched like last week. I said, oh, well, if by the universe, you mean YouTube’s algorithm that’s designed to try and get you to watch more stuff like the same stuff that you.

[01:00:11] Cameron: Spent two hours watching a week ago, then yes, the universe is trying to send you a message. She goes, but I did, this was a completely different podcast on YouTube that had the same person. I’m like, yeah, that’s how the algorithm works. And I’m pretty sure the people in Congress have the same view as my mother.

[01:00:28] Cameron: It’s like, Oh, but in their case, the universe is the Chinese communist party presenting people with more anti Israel, uh, commentary.

[01:00:38] Ray: Well, I don’t know about the algorithms, but I do know that if you kill, you know, 32, 000, you know, 99 percent of them are innocent people in an area like Gaza, and it’s on tape. That’s going to do a lot more than any algorithm will. That’s just facts. That’s just bloodletting.

[01:00:56] Cameron: Semite. You’re an anti Semite, Ray,

[01:00:59] Ray: and that’s exactly what I wanted to get to later.

[01:01:01] Ray: The State of Israel, however, um, maybe they hired Barry and Stan, but you cannot criticize anything Israel does, because if you do, you’re an anti Semite, and then they’ve got you pegged, and it’s a brilliant, brilliant campaign, marketing, whatever, uh, and so, yeah, it’s just one of those things, what do you do, but clearly, because you’ve been saying this for years, Clearly what they do, they overstep the line a lot of times since the creation of that company, excuse me, of that country, but they, if you do criticize them, then you are the worst person in the world because you’re an anti Semite.

[01:01:38] Ray: They’ve got that locked in a bag and it’s

[01:01:41] Cameron: And there’s a, there’s a great book on that that John Mearsheimer co wrote, um, 15, 20 years ago now called the Israel Lobby. Highly recommended. I read it when it came out and he talks about, he’s got the evidence and the history behind how they weaponized the term anti Semitism to mean any criticism of Israel’s actions, um, and it’s been incredibly successful.

[01:02:06] Tony: I’m very reminiscent of what you spoke about before, Ray, about needing an enemy to bolster your own psyche. It’s just like the US.

[01:02:15] Ray: Well, not only that, but Israel can, all Israel has to do is go What the Holocaust, and it’s like a Trump card. They win. What are you gonna argue? You know? You know what I’m saying? Uh, it’s, it’s the ultimate Trump card. We can’t let this happen again. So we have to kill a lot of them before they kill a lot of us again.

[01:02:36] Ray: It’s hard to argue, you know, circular.

[01:02:38] Cameron: not just the JFNA, um, the Republican Jewish Coalition also supported the bill’s passage, the head of, um, the International Relations Department at Istanbul’s Yildiz Technical University, um, I read this in a Turkish, cause I was reading a lot of Al Jazeera and trying to get international perspectives on this, um, Turkish news sources.

[01:03:02] Cameron: The, uh, he said that the U. S. House move is aimed at protecting Israeli interests. In a recent interview with MSNBC, ADL head, uh, Jonathan Greenblatt said, TikTok has become the 24 7 news channel of so many of our young people, and it’s like Al Jazeera on steroids, amplifying and intensifying the anti semitism and the anti zionism with no repercussions.

[01:03:29] Cameron: So the Jewish lobby in the US, very big supporters of the bill, very much against TikTok for these reasons. But as I said before, the weird thing is Jeff Yass,

[01:03:38] Ray: Yeah.

[01:03:38] Cameron: ByteDance, who owns 50 percent of ByteDance, seems to have been the guy that convinced Trump to flip flop, is also a major supporter of Benjamin Netanyahu and the far right Israeli government that’s doing all of this stuff.

[01:03:54] Cameron: So, you know,

[01:03:56] Ray: Well,

[01:04:00] Cameron: in recent years according to tax records. Um, Oh no, so that’s Greenberg, one of the co founders of Sasquana, who runs a family foundation called Seed the Dream. He’s given more than three million. But Yass and his other co founders, um, Arthur Danchik, um, have funded a whole bunch of Israel related and Jewish causes.

[01:04:19] Cameron: So, I guess you can sit in both camps. You can be supporter of Israel, is, you know, Jewish lobby hates TikTok, but you own TikTok. You know, that’s capitalism for you, right? It reminds me of when Reminds me of when we were doing shows about what was going on in Syria, when the Obama administration was fighting ISIS in Northern Syria and Al Qaeda were fighting ISIS in North Syria.

[01:04:51] Cameron: So the Obama administration was supporting Al Qaeda to fight ISIS, but also hunting Osama Bin Laden. Uh, but they’re like, you know, it’s, uh,

[01:05:02] Ray: it’s complicated. 3D chess. It’s 3D chess. But here’s

[01:05:07] Cameron: is my friend, except

[01:05:08] Ray: what, but exactly. But here’s what I’ve learned. You can be a president. You can be a prime minister. Yeah, yeah. All that’s nice. But if I’m a multi billionaire, they knock on my door. They come to me because they’re going to need me for the next election.

[01:05:21] Ray: So, this guy, Yaz, can do whatever he wants and to a degree. It has to be tolerated because you’re going to, some politician is going to ask him for more money in the future. He can, he can, he can be controversial. He can, he can not, he doesn’t have to be, you know, consistent the entire time. He can do whatever he wants to do.

[01:05:38] Ray: They will still come to him because they have to.

[01:05:43] Cameron: The other argument that I’ve seen Matt Taibbi make is that this is a really bad president because if this goes ahead, it will enable future administrations, including a future Trump administration, to just start calling things owned by foreign adversaries and it’s very loosey goosey. But my counter argument to that is Trump just does whatever the fuck he wants anyway.

[01:06:05] Cameron: He doesn’t give a

[01:06:06] Ray: That particular day,

[01:06:08] Cameron: Yeah,

[01:06:09] Ray: day, and it could change,

[01:06:11] Cameron: but I get Tabi’s rule. I mean, we saw what happened when, uh, W started, you know, basically just declaring anyone foreign enemy, uh, enemies of the state. And then that, once that got enshrined, that just, you know, continued into the Obama administration. Um, you, it, it, once these things become precedence, Uh, it’s very, I mean, you know, the biggest example in the Trump era, I remember, was people started going, um, what are the checks and balances on a president starting a nuclear war again?

[01:06:44] Cameron: Oh, we don’t have any. Uh, really? Yeah, yeah, we don’t have

[01:06:48] Ray: I set a precedent? Yeah.

[01:06:50] Cameron: He could, and I don’t think anything’s been done about that since then either. I mean, everyone was horrified in 2020 when we realized, um, well, before that, when did Trump become president? 2016, when Trump could, when Trump could. Launch a nuclear missile and there’s nothing anybody could do about it because there are no checks and balances in place.

[01:07:15] Cameron: The only hope you had is that the generals with the briefcases would go, no, I’m not going to do that. Yeah, uh, that’s the only, only way of stopping somebody like Trump or any other batshit crazy or president with Alzheimer’s, like Biden, um, to launch a nuclear weapon. There’s no checks and balances in place.

[01:07:42] Cameron: And I don’t think anyone, but we’re gonna ban TikTok. Let’s focus on banning TikTok, not changing that fucking rule.

[01:07:49] Tony: We rely on the submarine commanders to just go, really? Is that the order? Are you sure?

[01:07:54] Cameron: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the

[01:07:56] Ray: Can I get a check? Check on that. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:08:00] Cameron: I’m done on this topic unless you guys want to keep

[01:08:03] Tony: One last thing, and it was in an article I was reading about this, it talked about how the vote was, um, It was partly swung by the, uh, security intelligence officials in, um, in the U. S. And the quote is, House legislators also received a series of classified briefings by intelligence officials that observers said helped boost support for the bill.

[01:08:27] Tony: Senators will receive similar briefings over the coming weeks, which will help determine the way they vote. So that raises two things for me. First of all, if that’s swaying the legislators into voting for this, What the fuck was in the briefing? And why isn’t it made public? If they really have hard evidence that something’s going on or,

[01:08:46] Ray: And they want support.

[01:08:47] Tony: yeah, why don’t they just tell us and then we’ll get our, get our support as well.

[01:08:51] Tony: Which leads me to the second conclusion. There’s something, there’s something in there which may not, the legislators may not want to have leaked. And going back to the article about all the pixels tracking everything, I mean, you know, is there, are the CIA going to the legislators going, well, you might want to support this, however, If we do, if ByteDance continues, we might just have to release where your car’s been in the last 48 hours and what you’ve been saying and what you’ve been watching on TikTok and all those

[01:09:20] Ray: Yeah.

[01:09:21] Tony: So that’s what annoys me about these things is the secret briefings going on. It’s supposed to be an open and transparent democracy and it’s swaying voters and we don’t hear a thing. It’s swaying legislators and we don’t hear a thing about it.

[01:09:32] Cameron: But the other, and the other argument though is, I remember when secret intelligence briefings had convinced the Bush administration that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, turned out to

[01:09:44] Cameron: be Bullshit. I remember when secret intelligence briefings were driving the media narrative that Trump was in cahoots with Putin to win the 2016 election.

[01:09:59] Cameron: And we had to have massive investigations into that, that cost hundreds of millions of dollars and went for three and a half years. At which point they came in and said, yeah, there’s no evidence for any of that. It was all made up and it was all bullshit. Based on the, uh, Steele dossier, which was fucking bullshit, and we all knew it was bullshit from well before 2016, because he’d been peddling it for a couple of years.

[01:10:21] Cameron: So this whole, and that’s, this gets me about America every time. Every couple of years, we go through the same thing. Oh, we have secret intel. That we can’t reveal to you, that means we have to go and do all this stuff and spend all this money. And then five years later, we find out that was complete fucking bullshit.

[01:10:40] Cameron: And they go, And the New York Times, which pushed the stories, like the WMD story, does a Mia Culper and says, Oh, we’ve learned our lesson, we will never, Run stories from anonymous sources that turned out to be Shalabi, the guy that hated Saddam Hussein and was in exile and wanted to be the president, and then we made him the president, and then he turned out to be a cunt, so we had to get rid of him.

[01:11:00] Cameron: But we will never do that again! And then, a couple of years later, they do the whole fucking thing again, and it’s just rinse and repeat, and no one ever goes, Hold on, didn’t you just say a couple of years ago that you wouldn’t do this again? No one ever, it just never happens!

[01:11:17] Ray: Yeah.

[01:11:18] Tony: not just that, but the news, news, um, traditional media or newspaper people, they’re defunded so much that, you know, I would have hoped that as soon as a person with a nose for news read that quote, they’d be trying to find out what was in the secret briefing. You know, surely one of the politicians that was lobbied would leak it, or, uh, you know, even, even in deep background, but we don’t hear a thing about it.

[01:11:41] Tony: There’s no one following up

[01:11:42] Cameron: CCP probably knows what it is. They probably heard somebody talk about it on TikTok. Uh,

[01:11:48] Ray: Aha.

[01:11:50] Cameron: Um, And the other point, you know, uh, before we close this off, I’ve seen a lot of, a lot of people are making on TikTok is if you have issue with the way that social media companies are using consumer data, great. Let’s pass some laws that prevent social media companies from using consumer data. And let’s put some restrictions into place and let’s put all the, you know, legislative things into place that monitor, track, blah, blah, blah.

[01:12:19] Cameron: But no, they’re not going to do that because that would affect Facebook and Google and Microsoft and Apple, et cetera, et cetera. So the Mag 7, which, did you see what happened to Apple’s share price today, Tony, the Mag 7? Uh,

[01:12:35] Tony: I didn’t.

[01:12:36] Cameron: Apple’s just been hit with a, uh, um,

[01:12:40] Tony: Ah, the,

[01:12:42] Cameron: yeah, uh, what do you call

[01:12:44] Tony: about restricting trade.

[01:12:46] Cameron: Yeah. What do you, what do you call those things?

[01:12:47] Cameron: A frigging monopoly. They’ve just, just been hit with a monopoly lawsuit. The share price just crashed. Um, you know, it’ll probably recover cause who the fuck cares? It’ll take years. Um, so, so to wrap up, what’s going to happen with this? My guess what’s going to happen is I think the Senate will pass it, I think, um, Biden will sign it, I think TikTok will fight it in the courts, they’ll appeal it, it’ll go to the Supreme Court, That’ll take a bunch of time, Biden’s going to lose the election, Trump will be back in, and then it’s just a fucking coin toss to see what Trump does about it on any particular day.

[01:13:29] Tony: It was shut down meta. Because he banned for two years.

[01:13:33] Cameron: yeah, yeah.

[01:13:35] Tony: Yeah. Well, and the other

[01:13:36] Cameron: of the country, which plays into my next story.

[01:13:39] Tony: there is a side issue to all this too, which is kind of tangential, but in little old Australia, there’s an issue going on about the fact that the social media outlets signed a deal, self enforced deal, with the newspaper originators of news to pay for that News content on their platforms.

[01:14:03] Tony: And then Meta pulled out last week or the week before and now there’s pressure on the government to enforce the deal. And it’s being watched quite closely around the world. So, you know, there are these, these issues on social media are really attracting some heavyweight hitters, um, to, to the party.

[01:14:20] Cameron: I loved Hunter or Taylor’s analysis on that the other day was, ah, Facebook is struggling. They can’t afford to pay the news companies. Like, yeah, I don’t think that’s the point. I think their point is, fuck you. We don’t need to pay you this money. What do you, you need the money more than we need your news on our platform.

[01:14:38] Cameron: Um, they’ve let it run for a couple of, I think it’s a negotiating tactic, right? It’s like, they’re going to cut the fee that they pay by, you know, 50 percent or whatever it is, because at the end of the day, the media companies in this country are running out of cash. They know they need it, you

[01:14:54] Tony: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:14:56] Cameron: Media companies are fucked.

[01:14:57] Cameron: Speaking of media companies, we said we were going to dissect some headlines.

[01:15:00] Tony: Yes.

[01:15:02] Cameron: Who wants to go first?

[01:15:04] Tony: Well, I’ll, I’ll kick it off. Um, and I, what I’ve done is slightly different to that, but I’ve looked at the Murdoch headlines in Australia. And this goes back to two days ago to, to Wednesday of this week, which was the 20th of March when I sat down and did the exercise. So I asked myself, first of all, what, what did I think was the top three things going on in Australia on Wednesday, the 20th of March?

[01:15:28] Tony: And I thought of, The visit to Sydney by the China’s Foreign Minister, which hadn’t happened for a long time. The possibility of an Israeli war crime trial over starvation in Gaza. And a local issue, the RBA left rates on hold, which is kind of like what the Central Reserve did in America. And I’d I rate that as an issue because out of those, it has the biggest impact on my life.

[01:15:53] Tony: So they’re the kind of big picture things going on for the newsworthy. In Australia, there is a very large concentration of the media in the hands of Rupert Murdoch. And you, you sort of feel that the most if you leave the capital city. So he has a newspaper headline in every capital city. He has a national newspaper, and he basically has all the regional.

[01:16:15] Tony: Towns sewn up as well. So, the Australian headline, that’s the newspaper, that’s the national newspaper that Murdoch owns. The top three headlines on the front page of the Australian were Conviction PM has a caveat. And that’s the other thing about Murdoch’s headlines. They don’t pause, they’re not, there’s no grammar.

[01:16:33] Tony: I mean, Conviction PM has a caveat was their headline. I’ve got no idea what that even means. The sub headline is Anthony Albanese, who’s the Australian Prime Minister. His decision to add the condition of bipartisanship to putting forward promised religious freedom laws has revived the cultural political wars.

[01:16:50] Tony: Well, Modoc never let the cultural political wars go into remission. There’s no reviving them. This is a continuance of them. The other two headlines were Monitor on rapist, detainee, taken off, and Wong’s message to Beijing, don’t accept the gospel of Paul as the word of Australia. So, a common theme to the Murdoch front page is a crime and order headline, and for background to people who aren’t in Australia, Uh, we’ve had some overseas, uh, immigration detainees, they tried to get into Australia illegally, they were put into, um, again, what allegedly were concentration camps offshore.

[01:17:29] Tony: Uh, there’s been a law, um, changed, or, or a high court decision which has allowed some of those to go free. Turns out some of them were, uh, criminals in, in their past lives, but they’ve been, um, forced to wear, uh, Ankle monitors, and it’s been a hot cultural war issue in Australia about law and order. And so someone’s been able to get their ankle bracelet off.

[01:17:51] Tony: That’s front page news according to Rupert Murdoch. And the last one was, again, um, about the culture wars. Paul Keating is a past Prime Minister of Australia. He is, he is not buying into the Orca steal, which we’ve signed for defence relations with the US and the UK. And he’s not buying into the China bad.

[01:18:12] Tony: Um, image of China. And, uh, so the Chinese foreign minister said, hey, I wouldn’t mind meeting with Paul when he comes to Australia, because at least he’s the same one, okay, in the, in the country. And so Rupert Murdoch’s taken a pot shot of that. Um, I’ll just do one more. The Herald Sun is the Murdoch newspaper in Melbourne.

[01:18:30] Tony: There’s a similar one called the Telegraph in Sydney. The headlines on the Herald Sun on Wednesday were Fossil Fools, Appeal Backfires, Climate Protest Pests Who Blocked Westgate Bridge. in brackets, forcing mum to give birth on side of road and at longer jail terms. So again, there’s a lot of grammar you need to unpack in that sentence, and the question that begs me is that these are people who were forcing the bridge closure with their protests, putting a gun to the head of the mum, forcing her to give birth, I mean, it’s just, it’s inane, and the other two headlines were Top Nick, Best First 50 Games Ever, Sporting headline, I don’t know who Topnik is, uh, and smiles as Kate on the Mend, so Royal Celebrity.

[01:19:16] Tony: So this has been the Murdoch way of doing things, the Murdoch strategy in Australia. I’m going to talk to people with what they like in terms of sport and celebrities. I’m going to push crime, crime is a problem, and make people fearful. And I’m then going to slip in a bit of a conservative, um, You know, rationale or a conservative line on things that are going on in the big news.

[01:19:40] Tony: And that’s, that’s been going on for years and years and years. And if all you get Access to is if you’re in a like a Wagga Wagga or somewhere in the country, all you’re getting access to is that kind of news. That really does shape the culture in Australia. And it doesn’t just happen in Australia. I mean, in the, in the States, the New York Post, which is owned by, Murdoch on Wednesday had only had one headline, Strong Arm of the Law, High Seas, SIEZ, James plots to take Trump’s buildings, help Democrats by bankrupting the Don.

[01:20:16] Tony: James is the prosecutor in New York who’s, uh,

[01:20:20] Ray: James.

[01:20:21] Tony: Yeah, he successfully, um, won the case against, uh, Donald Trump. In the UK, his, the, he owns the Telegraph, and the headline there was Diversity Drivers Backfired, Warns Bad Knock. So, again, if you’re only getting that side of things, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, Reinforcing that the culture wars, it’s not really news and it’s pushing a point and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a well worn path for him.

[01:20:50] Tony: I was, it may happen in the US if you ever get concentrated media ownership like we do here and, and Murdoch gets that big, but it really does have a sway on, on society in Australia that follows this and, and talks about it around the water cooler and, you know, amongst friends and it’s just pisses me off no end.

[01:21:10] Ray: Well, it shapes their world. Yeah. Sorry,

[01:21:13] Cameron: Rupert isn’t actually immortal, Tony, um, and a vampire, what happens when Rupert dies, do you think?

[01:21:20] Tony: Well, I think it’s been the big power struggle, and, you know, Michael Wolff and people like that have written books about this, but Lachlan seems to be the anointed successor. There was a battle between James and Lachlan, and we can just go and watch Succession to see how that goes. But, um, James was the, was the more progressive of the two and wanted to shut down, um, Fox News and, and become a, uh, a more, uh, progressive organization.

[01:21:44] Tony: Independent or centrist view in the news media. And Lachlan’s going, nah, this stuff sells. I’m going to back what my dad did. So I, if, if, if Lachlan does take over, when Rupert goes, I think it’s business as usual. It continues on.

[01:21:59] Cameron: Mmm. You don’t think it’ll all be divested?

[01:22:01] Tony: and, and there is concentration in the US too. I mean, I was surprised when my travels over there last year, when I was going to places like Augusta in Georgia and Las Vegas, that the local news station is a Fox News station.

[01:22:14] Tony: So it is still, if you want to turn on the nightly news or the morning news in, in anywhere in America, perhaps outside of New York and LA, you’ll get the Fox News. And it’s the same sort of, um, sly strategy that Murdoch uses here. It’ll be stories about celebrities, stories about sport, that’ll be the headlines, and then there’ll be just this little article about, you know, how it’s, how crime is a problem and how it’s due to the woke nature, woke nature of the legislators or something like that.

[01:22:43] Tony: It’s a, it’s a very well worn, um, playbook for him.

[01:22:47] Cameron: Culture Wars?

[01:22:48] Ray: If it ain’t, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. So, and it’s making money, so yeah. Well, my first one we’ve already touched on, we were talking about Israel earlier, and what it is, is um, this war’s been going on for five, what, five and a half months, 32, 000 Palestinians dead, obviously the vast majority of them are innocent civilians, women and children, and what it is, is Biden has, you know, Again said, can we please, can we just please get a six weeks, six week, uh, ceasefire?

[01:23:18] Ray: Let’s exchange the hostages, you know, all that kind of stuff. Uh, Hamas is saying we will not give back any more people until this, there’s a permanent solution, which of course is not going to happen. But the point I want to make is, If America can’t check Israel, then nobody can check Israel, and if they want to go into Rafah, which they’re planning on doing, and it’s going to be a ground campaign with men with machine guns and tanks, uh, there’s going to be a lot of collateral damage, but if we can’t If we can’t get them to slow down or, or whatever, do a cease fire.

[01:23:50] Ray: This is just gonna go on and, and there’s gonna be more and more people and entities that are gonna turn against Israel just because they’re becoming the very monster that they supposedly are trying to defend themselves from. So it’s, it’s just getting, I don’t know who knows where it’s gonna end. It’s not gonna end anytime soon.

[01:24:08] Ray: Does this play into certain Hamas leader’s hands? It seems like it does. I don’t know, but it’s just very scary that this could go on for a very long time and there could end up being hundreds of thousands of deaths, not soldiers, women and children, and it’s just going to happen and we’re not going to, or we can’t stop it unless we’re willing to go in.

[01:24:30] Ray: And we’re not going to do that. So, and there’s an election coming up. It gets convoluted very quickly. So it’s just a nightmare. It’s just like the perfect storm of a nightmare.

[01:24:41] Tony: Where was the, where was the headline that you picked up that story from? Where was it

[01:24:44] Ray: Oh, I got this. I’m sorry. Um, I got it from Reuters. I got this particular, uh, the several articles from Reuters. Um, and what it is, is, um, And, and Netanyahu is pretty much just coming out and saying, look, we’re going to do this no matter what. Uh, let me see if I can find the actual quote. Um, well, there’s the, there’s the Israeli strategic affairs minister, Ron Dermer, who’s basically saying, we’re quite confident that we can do this.

[01:25:12] Ray: And when he says this, he means the raid on Rafa. We can do this in a way that will be effective, not only militarily, but also on the humanitarian side. So basically, They’re somehow going to send in men in tanks when there’s over a million people in Rafa, and they’re only going to kill the bad guys. And if anybody has studied history for even five minutes, you know that the army is not a scalpel, it’s a broadsword.

[01:25:36] Ray: There will always be. Collateral damage. So the point is, this is going to get, um, very ugly, but as we all know, politics is always local. Netanyahu is going to do whatever he thinks is going to be best for him, his party, whether he needs to get re elected or just to stay in power. They will, they will, just like everybody else, they will do whatever they think is best for them.

[01:26:00] Ray: Um, and it’s probably going to mean the death of a lot of people. Sorry,

[01:26:03] Tony: Yeah, no, look, I, I completely understand what you’re saying, but I want to come back to where you read that because was the headline about Biden trying to stop it or was the headline about Israel going into Rafa?

[01:26:14] Ray: It was, it was more about Israel, and I’m sorry I don’t have it in front of me, but the headline pushed the idea that Netanyahu was going to do whatever he was going to do despite Biden’s for a ceasefire.

[01:26:30] Tony: Yeah.

[01:26:30] Ray: the thrust. Uh, the article, yeah.

[01:26:33] Tony: so yeah. So that’s, I guess that’s the point I wanted to explore. Um, the, the, the story is about, you know, should, it should be Netanyahu, push on into Ra, into, um, Raffa, but the US media puts the headline, Biden tries to stop it, or Biden, you know, is unsuccessful in trying to stop it. So it’s. Again, there’s, there’s, you know, there’s a political slant to the story and I’d like to unpack, you know, who’s pushing that and who benefits from that.

[01:27:04] Ray: Yeah, that’s a good point, because obviously the election’s coming up, Trump is a pro Israel, he’s just gonna back him, and let’s be honest, he doesn’t care, but if there’s anything, I, and I, and Cam, with all due respect, I disagree. I think unless something completely crazy happens, and it’s probably going to, I think Biden’s going to win in, in that it’s not so much Biden winning the election, it’s Trump has alienated so many other people.

[01:27:28] Ray: Unless you’re a white guy, there’s very little reason for you to vote for Trump, but that’s a discussion for another day. But if there’s anything that they can do to chip away at Biden’s chances, and one of them is saying, look, he won’t even support Israel in their hour of need. They were attacked. And if he can’t support them, then is he really the right guy to be the President of the United States?

[01:27:52] Ray: So I, I take your point, Tony.

[01:27:55] Tony: I’m just looking at the betting market for the US elections and Donald Trump is the favorite on Betfair.

[01:28:02] Ray: Mmm,

[01:28:03] Cameron: I’m looking

[01:28:03] Ray: well maybe for me it’s,

[01:28:05] Cameron: FiveThirtyEight’s polls have Trump, um, uh, overall, um, well ahead, but some polls Biden wins, but mostly Trump’s way ahead in the polls.

[01:28:19] Ray: Here’s the next thing, and Tony mentioned Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York. She has already, and this is a very convoluted legal thing, which I am not an expert in, she’s already filled out some of the paperwork to start grabbing possessions of Trump in New York on Monday. Um, we all know that Trump is self centered, we all know Trump is not quite there in the head, but he’s got a proven track record of Browbeating people over decades.

[01:28:44] Ray: He’s very good at it. But what happens when the very base, the very essence, the very thing that makes Trump who he is, he’s a, he’s someone who owns a lot of real estate. What if he suddenly loses, has taken from him some of his real estate? He’s said some crazy things in the last 70 whatever years. I think that’s nothing compared to what he’s going to say between Monday, if she starts taking property.

[01:29:10] Ray: And the election day, it’s literally, it’s like, you’ve got all these models. You’ve got all these predictions. You’ve got all these things. All to me, all of that goes out the window when he truly flies off the cliff, when he starts losing his golf courses and, and his place in New York, something seven, I can’t remember what it’s called anyway.

[01:29:29] Ray: So all the models go out the window when he starts losing. The very things that make him who he

[01:29:35] Tony: Really? He’s been bankrupted six times before. Didn’t hurt his

[01:29:40] Cameron: shit for years. Like he just gets more and more popular. The crazier the shit he says, the more popular he

[01:29:46] Tony: and that’s a good point.

[01:29:47] Ray: with the, within a certain group of, of Americans.

[01:29:51] Cameron: that are going to vote.

[01:29:53] Ray: we, we will say, and Seven Springs, that’s the place. But anyway, so, uh, and maybe on my part, it certainly could be wishful thinking because. He could really fuck up this country if he gets elected again.

[01:30:07] Cameron: the

[01:30:08] Ray: He could really fuck up a lot of things.

[01:30:09] Ray: Yeah.

[01:30:10] Cameron: The fact that he’s ahead in nearly all of the polls at this stage is just mind numbingly fucking mind fucked. Like, what? How? How is that even remotely possible in any sane universe where after Like, when did he start, like, seriously running for president? Like, say, 2014, 2015.

[01:30:37] Cameron: Um, it’s been ten years of Trump insanity, four of which he was actually the president, and, you know, 1. 6 million of whatever Americans died of COVID, and yet he’s still winning in the polls! Like, what?! The fuck? It was crazy enough. I remember when the show that we did on the bullshit filter, when he got elected and, you know, my opening line was, what the actual fuck, America?

[01:31:02] Cameron: Like, I did not expect that to actually happen.

[01:31:07] Tony: what the actual fuck Democratic Party if you can’t beat someone like Trump? Come on.

[01:31:11] Ray: It was, yeah. Hillary.

[01:31:14] Cameron: Well that’s what I said back then, like, after everything that’s happened since then, and he’s still winning in the polls, like, how fucking broken do you have to be as a political party when you can’t even beat Donald Trump in the polls? Like,

[01:31:28] Tony: Yeah, and why are you still running Kamala Harris? I mean, I think there should be a poll as to whether Biden lives to get to the election, but, um, you know, whether you like Biden or not, I think people are saying, forget Biden, he’s not going to make four years. We, we’re not voting for Biden because of Kamala Harris.

[01:31:45] Ray: Exactly. Her negatives, exactly. Her negatives almost rival Hillary’s and you make a very good point. I think what a lot of people are thinking is like, well, let’s get Biden elected and then he could die and we’ll have Kamala. And she’s not perfect, but the point is she’s not Trump, but there’s enough, how should I put this delicately?

[01:32:02] Ray: There’s enough white Democrats who would rather not see her be president. Uh, you know, For four years, if Biden can’t, if Biden were to win and then not be able to fulfill his duties. So racism is still quite powerful in America. We cannot, America still got a ways, a ways to go. We still got a ways to go.

[01:32:24] Ray: Speaking of which,

[01:32:26] Tony: The other, the other issue about, sorry, just, sorry, right, before you leave that topic, the other issue that there was a good opinion piece that I read in the, um, our financial review today saying that, um, if Trump is bankrupted, that it does expose him to being supported by foreign actors, um, to, to pay for his campaign and get him into office.

[01:32:45] Tony: And that’s, that’s got to be a risk for the U. S. in some, in some respect.

[01:32:49] Ray: not only is it a risk, but Alina Haba was asked that very question in the last 24 hours. And they said he, that they, they said something like, they asked her, we’ve heard rumors that Trump has made feelers to Saudi Arabia. And Russia, uh, about maybe someone helping him out in his moment of need. Um, and of course she’s a lawyer so she gave a very vague answer.

[01:33:13] Ray: She’s like, well, there are certain rules and stuff like that, but all options are being explored, but you’re absolutely right if you have, if, like Elon Musk said something like, um, if I loan, I’m not gonna loan Trump money, but if I loaned him the money, And he wins. To have the President of the United States owe me big time?

[01:33:31] Ray: That would be incredible! You know, you could, you could write your own laws or whatever, but it’s a very valid, uh, Criticism.

[01:33:37] Cameron: Isn’t that how the system’s always worked?

[01:33:40] Tony: It is.

[01:33:41] Cameron: said before, that’s why the mafia assassinated Kennedy, because they got him elected. That was in 1959.

[01:33:49] Ray: yeah. So Trump could be in jail and still win the election, and then I guess he could just pardon himself.

[01:33:57] Ray: Except for the stuff in Georgia. That’s a state crime. He cannot pardon himself for that. Yes. Who he could run this country from the jailhouse. What? That would be awesome. That would be

[01:34:07] Cameron: Alright, I took the New York Times, and there was a number of, uh, things on the front page on this day, which was Wednesday, March 20th, but the one that I chose was, Heating Beijing, Hong Kong Passes Anti Dissent Bill.

[01:34:23] Ray: Oh, mm-Hmm.

[01:34:24] Cameron: Um, now interestingly enough, the front page of the New York Times paper on that day, when you compare it to their online today’s paper, Uh, Things are a little bit different.

[01:34:36] Cameron: Um, the, the article, same article, but, um, the headline in the online version was Hong Kong adopts sweeping security laws bowing to Beijing. Slightly different.

[01:34:53] Ray: Tone,

[01:34:54] Cameron: that was, that was the story that I picked up on. So first of all, the term bowing to Beijing, or in the paper version, heeding Beijing.

[01:35:02] Ray: mm hmm,

[01:35:03] Cameron: In other words.

[01:35:05] Cameron: Obeying the government because Hong Kong is a part of China and Beijing is Chinese government. So, but when they do something that the government wants, they’re bowing. To the government or heeding the government, just the very terminology of the headline speaks volumes. And one of the things I’ve learned about the New York Times over the years we’ve been doing this show, and I’ve been dissecting and analyzing, it is, it’s really interesting when it comes to domestic stories, uh, I think the New York Times is actually Quite reasonable journalism.

[01:35:41] Cameron: Whenever they’re dealing with a quote unquote foreign adversary is where it’s just bias to the hills. Like it’s written by the State Department or the CIA when you read the New York Times foreign adversaries. And this is, you know, we’ve done stuff on Cuba and Venezuela and looked at how blatantly biased the New York Times coverage is.

[01:36:02] Cameron: This is another one. So it’s bowing to Beijing. Which suggests, when you read it, that Hong Kong is some sort of independent country that’s being told what to do by the Chinese government, not that it is China. So

[01:36:20] Ray: They’re being bullied, the perception. Yeah.

[01:36:22] Cameron: um, and one of the things that I did is I read the New York Times article and then I read The coverage in the South China Morning Post, which is a pro Chinese paper based out of Hong Kong, but reading their coverage of it where they were, they were criticizing the Western media coverage of this passing of the laws.

[01:36:43] Cameron: So they’re both biased, right? But it was interesting to get the two sides of the story. So Alex Lowe, longtime journalist with the SCMP, and I read the SCMP every day. It’s like Haaretz. I read Haaretz every morning. I read the SCMP every morning. When I say read, I scan it and a whole bunch of global news sources, just part of my waking up routine every morning.

[01:37:04] Cameron: He writes, since there are 160 articles under the basic law, I suppose our critics can claim that we have been bowing to Beijing 160 times since Hong Kong’s return to Chinese rule in 1997. New York Times article says, The new legislation which was passed with extraordinary speed. Low says, The passage of the domestic national security law has taken almost 27 years, yet some of them describe it as being fast tracked.

[01:37:35] Cameron: So for anyone who remembers. They tried to pass laws like this in Hong Kong, uh, like 23 years ago or something in the early 2000s and there were massive protests about it. Um, and so they’ve been trying to pass these national security laws, basically rewriting the laws that were left over from the British rural era for decades.

[01:38:03] Cameron: And they finally got it through, but in the Western media, it’s fast tracked through. Like they have literally been trying to get this passed for decades. The New York Times says the new laws are establishing penalties including life imprisonment for political crimes like treason and insurrection which are vaguely defined.

[01:38:26] Cameron: It also targets offences like external inference, sorry, external interference, interference in quotation marks. And the theft of state secrets, creating potential risks for multinational companies and international groups operating in the Asian financial center. So, for a start, I like the fact that they put external interference in quotation marks, like it’s not a real thing, they just made it up.

[01:38:55] Cameron: MEANWHILE, THE U. S. IS TRYING TO BAN TIKTOK! Because of external interference, and multi nati like it’s a multinational company that’s operating in the American financial center, and they’re trying to ban it or force the sale of it. Under by the way, under current US federal law, anyone convicted of treason against the United States can face the possibility of death.

[01:39:22] Cameron: Or at least five years in prison. Um, but in China, in Hong Kong, it’s apparently really bad that you could get life imprisonment for treason. In America, you can get the death penalty, but they don’t point that out in the article. By the way, Yeah, we get the death penalty here for it, but they’re just doing prison.

[01:39:43] Cameron: It also says that in the US, the punishment for insurrection or rebellion against the authority of the United States, or for giving aid or comfort to its enemies, can lead to a fine imprisonment of up to 10 years and ineligibility to hold any office under the, in the United States. So. But in the, but in Hong Kong now you can get imprisonment for treason.

[01:40:06] Cameron: That’s apparently big news and a horrible thing, but in the US, um,

[01:40:11] Tony: to China and of course there’s been a lot of people getting five to 10 year jail terms after January 6th as well.

[01:40:17] Cameron: Yes. Now, uh, Lowe in the SM, in the South China Morning Post says, you don’t get to pick and choose which constitutional provisions you will respect and legislate and which to ignore and denigrate, or at least that’s what Western societies claim is the basis of constitutionalism. But if it’s being done by some other societies to which they are antagonistic.

[01:40:36] Cameron: Their propagandists will enter a united front to claim you can’t do it, even if that’s how we do it. It’s the same old, do as I say, not as I, not as I do.

[01:40:47] Ray: I love that. Yeah.

[01:40:49] Tony: be interesting to see what happens to the financial district in Hong Kong. There’s been some moves out of Hong Kong to Singapore by some of the big banks, big players, and there’s been speculation that the inaction of that law may cause more, but it’ll be interesting to see if it actually does.

[01:41:04] Cameron: And if they do, is that an inference that they’re actually encouraging treason and insurrection in Hong Kong? And if, if, if a law passes against treason and insurrection, and you have to leave the country, Uhhhhhhhhhh

[01:41:22] Tony: Yeah, we’re not guilty, nothing to see here.

[01:41:24] Cameron: Yeah,

[01:41:25] Ray: I’m leaving anyway,

[01:41:26] Cameron: it’s not because of that.

[01:41:28] Ray: gotta go, yeah,

[01:41:30] Cameron: health reasons. It’s like when, who was the CEO over here that just, uh, resigned?

[01:41:36] Cameron: Uh, Amcor. The Amcor CEO I pointed out in the Facebook chat group just resigned due to health reasons. I was like, yeah, sure it is. Yeah, that’s, that’s the go to line, right? Uh, New York Times says analysts say that analysts Say the legislation, which will take effect on March 23rd, could have a chilling effect on a wide range of people, including entrepreneurs, civil servants, lawyers, diplomats, journalists and academics, raising questions about Hong Kong’s status as an international city.

[01:42:09] Cameron: Analysts say. Very Trumpy, I thought. It’s like, people say that I’m the greatest president who ever lived. New York Times analysts say, which analysts? Were they? New York

[01:42:20] Cameron: Times? No.

[01:42:21] Tony: That’s very sloppy journalism, isn’t it?

[01:42:23] Cameron: don’t quote any particular analysts that say that. We just say, analysts say. Um, So, Lew, again, from the SCMP, talking about American criticisms, writes, This is coming from the same government that has been aiding and abetting Israel to commit genocidal acts against Palestinians by supplying them with some of the most destructive weapons known to man.

[01:42:45] Cameron: America’s murderous hypocrisy used to make me laugh, now it just makes me sick to my stomach.

[01:42:52] Ray: Nice line.

[01:42:53] Cameron: I mean, drawing maybe a bit of a long bow here, comparing domestic laws with support for genocide. But I would point to the current American president, uh, Joe Biden, Lazy Joe Biden. Um, what is it, like, uh, Forgetful Joe Biden. Um, his claim to fame, as people may or may not remember, before becoming VP in 2008, was how he pushed through tough on crime laws in 1984, 1986, 1988, and 1995. For the big one, which according to many studies, and I’m not just saying that I can point you to them if you want me to, led to mass incarcerations in the US.

[01:43:38] Cameron: There’s some debate over whether the federal law did that or they were state laws and his tough on crime stuff was just copying what was already happening at a state by state basis. But he was part of the whole very, very public justification on pushing through tough on crime laws in that 10 year period.

[01:43:58] Cameron: Which, whether it was at a federal level or a state level, um, pushed through, uh, you know, millions of families ended up in jails. But at the time of the 1994 law, during the Clinton administration, he publicly bragged how the Democratic Party at the time was supporting 60 new death penalties, 70 enhanced penalties, 100, 000 more cops, and 125, 000 new state prison cells.

[01:44:28] Cameron: That was Joe Biden’s public bragging in 1994 about how tough the Democratic Party was getting on crime. Let’s also recall that the United States of America currently has 25 percent of the world’s prisoners. And has a greater percentage of incarceration of its population than any other country in the world, including China, Cuba, Russia, Iran, and North Korea.

[01:44:57] Cameron: In addition to people actually in jail, 4. 8 million Americans are on probation or parole, which means on top of the 3 million odd, uh, People in jail. You’ve got over 7 million people under correctional control in the United States, 3 percent of the adult population that in many places therefore can’t vote, etc, etc, etc.

[01:45:19] Cameron: Um, so the hypocrisy of the New York Times on this and, and, and, and the lack of comparison with China versus the United States position on all these sorts of things always astounds me. I’m going to play a clip. This is guy now, this guy, Nury, he’s um, a British, British. journalist who lives in Hong Kong. Um, uh, some people say that he’s, you know, paid by the CCP.

[01:45:47] Cameron: He’s very pro CCP in his content, but it’s worth listening to as, you know, worth reading the SCMP. Here’s his, um, I’ll just play the first minute or two of this. Hopefully you guys will be able to hear it. Okay. This is the thing that started playing when it shouldn’t have before. Yuri Itachi. Western media outlets are telling you that China has imposed a tough security law on Hong Kong.

[01:46:13] Cameron: Ooooooh. But I live in Hong Kong and people in general here are happy about it. Why? Because we know something that the world is not being told. And I’m going to tell you what. First, this law specifically targets the hybrid warfare techniques used by the US, often called colour revolutions. Hong Kong leader John Lee said that in so many words.

[01:46:36] Cameron: Now the technique is for US agents to quietly go overseas and incite protests that build a very specific, a very particular narrative. Let me show you. The same colour revolution script was used in Hong Kong in 2019 and reused in Bangkok afterwards. Now on the left is the Hong Kong. So here he’s putting up media coverage of the protests in Thailand and the protests in Hong Kong and they’re almost identical.

[01:47:05] Cameron: Like, he’s got them side by side. You can see the exact same narrative, the exact same photographs being reused. To tell these stories. It’s quite interesting. And you know, his allegations about color revolutions in the U. S. We’ve talked about that a lot on this show. Uh, Tony and I talked about it, uh, on the Putin show last month.

[01:47:26] Cameron: This is fairly well accepted by critics of America’s, um, role in geopolitics around the world, Mearsheimer, Chomsky. People like that, people have analyzed this stuff is the so called color revolutions that happened in the early 2000s, uh, were being driven, engineered, supported to varying degrees by the CIA, the National Endowment for Democracy, all of America’s, you know, quasi government funded, uh, Uh, institutions in these countries that supposedly support democracy.

[01:48:05] Cameron: And this gets back to what you and I are talking about in the Cold War show at the moment, Ray. The playbook that they used in Iran in 1953 to overthrow Mossadegh, which is to take huge buckets of money and funnel them covertly into a country to fund criminal elements, um, political opposition, Uh, whatever it is, media, to buy media coverage, to basically create massive amounts of discontent, to organize protests, and, you know, as many people believe, happened in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014, actually to fund and organize and orchestrate it.

[01:48:44] Cameron: revolutions to topple governments, covertly run. And, you know, as in the case with Iran, America didn’t admit to this until 50 years after the events, denied it for 50 years, and then went, Oh, that, yeah, no, no, we did. We did do that when the, when the, you know, the, the laws on, um, secrecy and, you know, freedom of information were up, they finally had to go, Oh, yeah, no, that thing we’ve been not denying for, wait, no, no, that, that was.

[01:49:14] Cameron: Us. Yeah, we did that. Um, so he’s, he’s got a point on whether or not, to what degree, I shouldn’t say whether or not, to what degree that that’s happening in Hong Kong.

[01:49:25] Ray: hmm.

[01:49:25] Cameron: You know, I don’t know, but, and probably won’t know for 50 years, but it’s, it’s definitely happening at some level. And

[01:49:31] Tony: Well, there was, sorry, I was going to say, there certainly was strong pro democracy protests in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. So,

[01:49:39] Cameron: Yeah. But the question

[01:49:40] Cameron: is, to what degree are they being funded and driven by the US? Yeah. You know, we’ve got a story I’ve been meaning to do on Bullshit Filter, um, we might do it in Cold War actually, coming up, is how the US was involved in Tibet. And the, the problems that China had with Tibet back in the fifties, which led to China taking over Tibet and everything that happened there.

[01:50:07] Cameron: You know, they were, they were involved in supporting the Kuomintang in Taiwan. They were involved in trying to, uh, influence what was going on in Tibet, trying to, you know, uh, topple the Maoist control over different regions of China. As we’ve talked about on this show, they’d been doing in Xinjiang. Um, it’s a whole part of the Uyghur pro, um, independence movement, largely influenced by the CIA last 20 years in the outskirts of China.

[01:50:38] Cameron: So anyway, that’s New York Times very, very biased, uh, coverage of, um, the Hong Kong vote.

[01:50:47] Tony: Yeah. I mean, it must be a legislative issue there, too, which hasn’t been drawn out. But if Hong Kong is a state and it had conflicting laws to the You know, tip it on its head, if Virginia came out and said we have these laws which are completely different and overridden by the federal ones, we have to change our laws to come into law. They couldn’t pass laws in Virginia that are unconstitutional. And

[01:51:16] Ray: There’s a hierarchy.

[01:51:17] Tony: thing, I guess the same thing applies in Hong Kong, but that’s not covered in the article.

[01:51:23] Ray: Right.

[01:51:23] Cameron: it’s the same thing with Xinjiang, like when the, um, when the, they were bringing Xinjiang into line with, um, China’s one child policy and, or, you know, the removal of the one child policy even, and, and, and increasing the amount of children that a family can have, people, you know, the Western media was saying, oh, they’re oppressing the Uyghurs and the amount of children they gave.

[01:51:47] Cameron: No, they were just, actually, the, that community had been given an exemption on the one child policy for decades, then they removed the one child policy and moved it up to like two or three kids, three kids you could have. They were bringing Xinjiang down into that level and they were like, oh, they’re oppressing the Uyghurs.

[01:52:06] Cameron: And the Chinese are going, no, we were just bringing it into line with the rest of the country and our policy on birth rates. But that was never told in the Western media versions of the story. All right. I’m cognizant of the fact that we’re two hours in, we haven’t even got to story number three.

[01:52:21] Tony: Yeah.

[01:52:22] Cameron: I’ve, I suggest that we maybe put a, draw a line under it.

[01:52:25] Cameron: Cause the next story is going to take another hour at least to talk about China’s economy. Maybe we can save that for next month.

[01:52:33] Ray: There we go,

[01:52:34] Tony: Sounds good.

[01:52:35] Cameron: Thank you boys. That was fun as always. Thank you, TK. Thank

[01:52:39] Tony: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for the invite. Thanks, Ray.

[01:52:41] Ray: yeah, thank you sir, gentlemen, yes, all

[01:52:46] Cameron: a good, have a good month.

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My guest co-host today is Tony Kynaston from the QAV Investing Podcast. We’re talking about the Tucker Carlson interview with Putin and breaking down the lies, distortions and misinformation ABOUT the interview that we’re reading in the mainstream media, and asking why there is a need to distort Putin’s words in the West.

Transcript

BS 123
[00:00:00] Tony: 3,
[00:00:12] Tony: 2, 1.
[00:00:13] Cameron: Welcome to the Bullshit Filter episode 123 Special edition because, uh, Ray has been replaced
[00:00:23] Cameron: with a, uh, smarter, better looking version of Ray, uh, my o my other Ray Tony
[00:00:30] Cameron: Kynaston, and welcome to the Bullshit
[00:00:33] Cameron: Filter, Tony.
[00:00:35] Tony: Thank you, Cam. Thanks for the invite. And I, I feel special
[00:00:39] Cameron: Uh, you invited, you, you, you invited yourself? I think, uh,
[00:00:43] Cameron: actually, yeah. Yeah.
[00:00:45] Tony: I do.
[00:00:46] Cameron: We had a lot, we had a lot of people offered to come on, and I appreciate everyone’s offers, but I did say condition was, you had to watch the Putin interview. No one else, uh, seemed to be up for that. Tony goes, yeah, I can do that.
[00:00:58] Cameron: So he
[00:01:00] Tony: And that, and that was a high price to
[00:01:01] Tony: pay too, by the way.
[00:01:02] Cameron: Was it?
[00:01:03] Tony: Well, I didn’t mind listening to Putin, but
[00:01:06] Tony: Tucker Carlson, gimme a break.
[00:01:09] Cameron: Well, the, the upside is he didn’t, didn’t have much to say in the two
[00:01:13] Tony: it was a, I think a, a journalist would call that a softball interview.
[00:01:17] Cameron: Well, they’ve called it much, much worse than that. But look, and, and here’s, you know, there’s, there’s a couple of reasons for me being interested in this. Uh, number one.
[00:01:28] Cameron: Yeah. Uh, Putin’s obviously a, a major player in global geopolitics right now, and we don’t get to actually hear from him very often in the west.
[00:01:40] Cameron: Uh, and this is the first interview that an American journalist has got with him in over two years since the, this latest phase of the war, uh, began, the invasion began. Um, secondly, uh, you know, I think he’s, uh, he’s an interesting character. You, you know, you, you, you don’t run Russia for twenty-five years or whatever it’s been now, um, without having something going on.
[00:02:10] Cameron: He’s a smart canny player. Brutal, probably. And thirdly, and this is, I guess the main focus I want to give is just the level of outrage in the Western media about. Interview itself, even existing about Carlson doing the interview and, uh, and, and the outrage about the things that Putin allegedly said, which he didn’t actually say, I think, in the interview.
[00:02:45] Cameron: So I wanna cover the media coverage of it, and that’s kinda what the bullshit Filter originally was about, was looking at media coverage of big stories in the West and picking them apart to see if they’re providing a fair and reasonable, uh, coverage of the stories or if it’s bullshit. And I’ve read a lot of new stories about this and, and by and large, uh, I’m calling bullshit on a lot of it.
[00:03:12] Cameron: Anyway, let’s start with the interview, Tony. Um, I mean, I, you and I, I don’t think have talked a great deal about we, uh, Putin or Russia or Ukraine. Do you wanna give me your high level view on what’s been going on over there for the last 10 years?
[00:03:31] Tony: I’m not sure I can or I’m qualified. You, you probably know that far better than I
[00:03:36] Cameron: No.
[00:03:36] Cameron: one on this show has ever qualified
[00:03:38] Tony: yeah.
[00:03:38] Cameron: anything, don’t he?
[00:03:40] Tony: Well, you talk interesting, you said 10 years. I assume you’re referring back to the last time the
[00:03:45] Tony: government changed when, um, uh, Russia, annexed Crimea, and then there was a bit of a coup around that time as Well, Is that what you’re talking about? Is that why you said 10 years?
[00:03:55] Cameron: Well, uh, yeah. So Putin’s view, and, and I
[00:03:59] Cameron: tend to agree with him, is that in 2014 in Ukraine there was a coup, it was a US.
[00:04:05] Cameron: Uh, supported, if not engineered coup. There was an earlier coup, it was a 2004 coup, then there was the 2014 coup, uh, both led slash supported slash engineered, we believe by the, I believe by the United States.
[00:04:22] Cameron: To what degree? It’s hard to say, but there seems to be sufficient evidence to say that they were involved to some degree. Um, but you know, it’s the last 10 years is really when the Donbass situation became a thing. The Crimea became a thing, et cetera, et
[00:04:38] Cameron: cetera. Yeah.
[00:04:40] Tony: Yeah, I found it really hard to, to get to the truth, I guess, on the Donbass thing. I remember, um, when the, uh, probably prior to the Ukraine war, um, starting, I, I did hear some interviews. I think it was on the BBC World Service with, uh, which alleged that there was a flood of. Russian-speaking, um, Russian-affiliated Ukrainians crossing the border back into Russia.
[00:05:09] Tony: And that, that was because of alleged persecution from neo-Nazis in Ukraine on that sort of border region. And therefore, that was the justification for Putin having to take action. So, um, I tried to look up those articles in preparation for this and I couldn’t find them. So I can’t really talk about it in depth, but, but it’s, to me, it’s really hard to, to drill down and find out exactly what’s going on.
[00:05:35] Tony: Um, uh, it, it’s been hard as it always is in, I guess in a wartime situation. It’s been hard to get even accurate information about what’s going on in Ukraine during the war. And I probably relied a bit more on Al Jazeera for, for news on that rather than the Western media. Um, now Al Jazeera does have its problems too, but at least it was reporting issues like that.
[00:05:58] Tony: Pretty failure. And it was actually quite riveting the way they were reporting they were on the ground in the early days, reporting as, as suburb by suburb. The Russians started to get close to Kiev and, and get into Kiev and what was going on there. So that was, that was far better than the Western journalism.
[00:06:15] Tony: Um, and it was far more independent. So, uh, listening to the Putin interview, I think it was really interesting when he started to talk about his point of view on things like, uh, the, uh, the visit of Zelensky to the Canadian Parliament when the speaker and the Canadian parliament, uh, praised a, a war hero who turned out to be a, um, a Nazi or a neo-Nazi.
[00:06:39] Tony: A Nazi, I think actually. And then the speaker had to resign. So that didn’t get, that was the first time I’d heard of that. That didn’t get much coverage over here at all. So there is obviously two sides to every story. And I think, you know, it’s a show like this, which is good to pull it apart because. You know, as, as you know, it’s, um, the media is one of the institutions that manipulates us in, in our points of view and our, our lifestyles.
[00:07:03] Tony: And definitely in the West, that can be shaped by just straight capitalism and who, uh, who is paying for what ads in the media and, and who, what kind of agendas are they pushing and what kind
[00:07:16] Tony: of, uh, you know, political, uh, persuasions are they pushing and or do they have allegiances to or do they control?
[00:07:23] Tony: So it’s a, it’s a big issue.
[00:07:25] Cameron: mm It is, and it it, you know, I guess part of the reason
[00:07:31] Cameron: for me being interested in doing this show
[00:07:33] Cameron: is, uh, you know, the historian side of me knows how I. Regularly Western populations have been lied to historically during wars, uh, going back to World War I all the way through to, you know, Vietnam, um, and the, the Gulf Wars.
[00:07:53] Cameron: And, you know, there seems to be this fascinating cycle where we go through a war, we go through a conflict that we’re either directly involved in or indirectly involved in. And the government of the day and the media of the day spin a whole bunch of propaganda about it. We find out years later that they lied or spun or manipulated or there was no evidence for WMD and, you know, the attacks on this ship or that ship weren’t really
[00:08:25] Cameron: attacks ill that Yeah.
[00:08:28] Cameron: And, and the media says Mia culpa will never do that again. I. And the people tend to say, wah-ha. Now we understand that we will never be lied to again. And then the cycle just repeats. You know, within a decade there’s another incident and the media jump on board. The governments jump on board and the people just go along for the ride and believe everything again.
[00:08:50] Cameron: And inevitably a few years later they’ll go, oh no, we were lied to. Oh,
[00:08:53] Cameron: never again, you know?
[00:08:56] Tony: Well, you raised some great points, Cam, and they’re pertinent to this topic as well. And you know, it’s interesting, I think that there is no crime of misrepresentation in journalism, even though journalists will always say, we need to get to the facts and we want to, um, report them objectively, and we need two sources and we need hard evidence if none of those things happen.
[00:09:16] Tony: They get off Scot-free, and in fact, if they don’t happen, their readership may actually go up. So that’s, that’s the first thing to, to address what you’ve said. But the second thing about what you’re saying as well is that, particularly in this case, there’s an awful lot of money involved. Um, you know, Congress has stalled now on a multi-billion dollar aid package to Ukraine.
[00:09:38] Tony: And as, as we both know, that, that aid probably won’t ever reach Ukraine. It’ll be given to American companies providing arms to, uh, Ukraine, which is, which is fine in terms of helping Ukraine, uh, fight off the Russians, but it’s, it, you know, leads you to think, well, who’s behind that? Who benefits from that?
[00:09:56] Tony: And it’s the arms dealers in the, in the us the ominous manufacturers in the us. To benefit from it. So they’re always spoiling for a fight. ’cause it, it’s a good way to increase sales. So, um, yeah. The, the last 10 years, has it, has it been a swing to the Western Ukraine and has it been natural that Ukraine has therefore felt, um, more antagonistic or antagonized by Russia?
[00:10:24] Tony: And has that been fueled by the military-industrial complex in the US who are saying, well, you know, we, we kinda like it that there could be an antagonism on the border. It may actually work out for us.
[00:10:37] Cameron: mm
[00:10:41] Cameron: mm mm
[00:10:47] Cameron: mm mm mm mm. Mm mm. The, there, there are certain interests in Western countries who love good war because it’s economically profitable. And it’s not just the, the weapons manufacturers, it’s the media. ’cause big conflicts drive newspaper sales, television viewership, radio listeners, which means you can sell more ads.
[00:11:09] Cameron: Uh, and they’re cross related, obvious, uh, uh, often ownership issues between the owners of big media companies and the owners of weapons manufacturers. And, but it’s also, as we’ve, we’ve talked about on the Cold War Show, uh, many, many times and on this show, when there have been studies done on this in the US primarily. Who benefits from the industrial military complex over there? It’s not just weapon manufacturers, it’s businesses of all shapes and sizes. Because particularly US America’s, 800 odd military bases around the world need socks and condoms and food and computers and software paperclips, right? And so every congress person, every senator in the US has people in their district who run businesses, who have Pentagon contracts, and it’s a big chunk of their revenue.
[00:12:05] Cameron: And it’s easy money once you have that contract. It’s not competitive. They’re not like, uh, running a, a tender every year for this. If you’ve got it, you’ve got it. Quite often there’s, there’s a sense of urgency. Oh, we just need the stuff. We’ve gotta get it now. It’s urgent. We need it
[00:12:22] Tony: It’s a rush job.
[00:12:23] Cameron: Yeah. So it’s, it’s good for business.
[00:12:27] Cameron: Anyway, back to the coverage. So most of the coverage that I’ve read, and obviously I haven’t read everything, but I try and get a smattering of, you know, I, I read the BBC and the New York Times, and the Guardian and the ABC here in Australia and CBC in Canada, and try and get a coverage of what the, the major media outlets, uh, saying about this.
[00:12:47] Cameron: It’s a combination, I think, of lies, outright lies and distortion of what Putin said. And a lot of it is just attacking Carlson, both for giving Putin airtime in the first place, or for his weak interviewing skills. To me, the only real crime Carlson committed is having a very punchable face. Uh, he’s, he, he’s just one of those guys that just Chrissie walked through the, the living room a couple of times and I thought she’s going, oh my God, I just wanna punch him in the face.
[00:13:25] Tony: Yeah, he’s a smug white man, isn’t he?
[00:13:27] Cameron: He is, look, he is, uh, like, I mean, you’ve gotta be a pretty horrible person for the Murdochs to get rid of you. You know, when he got fired from Fox
[00:13:36] Cameron: last year, he was the most viewed cable network host in, not only in Fox, but in the United States. And they got rid of him when they were in the dominion of Voting Systems lawsuit.
[00:13:50] Cameron: And a whole bunch of his texts and emails were gonna become released as evidence. And, you know, it was just evident that he was a racist, vile piece of shit. And it, it was probably gonna cost them. Uh, and, you know, he was up on harassment, uh, accusations from employees. And it had come out that while they were pushing Trump in the last election behind the scenes, he was saying that he hated Trump.
[00:14:17] Cameron: And Trump was awful and he hoped Trump loses so they wouldn’t have to talk about him anymore. I dunno if that’s in the plus or the minus column for him, but he, you know, he was saying that internally, but publicly
[00:14:28] Cameron: praising Trump, you know, so
[00:14:30] Tony: Oh, and pushing the, pushing the voter fraud argument for Trump. That’s why he was so pivotal in that Dominion settlement. That’s an interesting book by Michael Wolf, if anyone wants to read it, to go through that whole process and
[00:14:41] Tony: how they thought in um, offering up Carlson’s resignation, it might help lower the settlement, but it didn’t.
[00:14:46] Tony: Of course, they paid a record settlement to, um, to the Dominion to drop the case.
[00:14:52] Cameron: So I’m in no way, shape or form a fan of Tucker Carlson or, uh, uh, trying to apologize for Tucker Carlson. But
[00:15:01] Cameron: I, I, I think the, the amount of coverage that’s given in these stories to, instead of coverage of what Putin actually said is disproportionate.
[00:15:12] Tony: Right.
[00:15:13] Cameron: If they don’t actually, when they do talk about Putin, they don’t tend to address his actual claims.
[00:15:18] Cameron: One of the exceptions by the way, is Al Jazeera, like the Al Jazeera coverage is typically very dry and factual. Here are the five major points that Putin made in the interview kind of thing, right? So I agree with you, Al Jazeera increasingly is the place where I go to, if I want to actually find out what’s going on or what was said.
[00:15:38] Cameron: Um, they don’t talk about Putin’s actual claims. You know, about NATO enlargement, about the CIA blowing up the Nord Stream pipelines, which we’ve talked about a lot on this show over the last year or so about the US and the UK preventing Ukraine from agreeing to a negotiated end of the conflict early on, which we’ve also talked about a lot on the show.
[00:15:58] Cameron: Like a lot of the points that Putin was making are valid. Uh, and you know, we’ve gone over them in previous episodes, so I’m not gonna like reiterate all of them, but the, the. Key issue here is that the Western media, by and large, doesn’t talk about them. If they do, they dismiss them in a couple of words as being nonsense and just move on.
[00:16:23] Cameron: Like there’s no real addressing of the issues in a serious way. And the two questions that I have, Tony, is one, why the lying by the media? Why the lying and the distortion? Why is it that the media needs to demonize our enemies and the Western journalists? And it’s not just when it comes to external enemies.
[00:16:45] Cameron: This happens over and over with internal enemies. We’ve seen this with Julian Assange, we’ve seen this with Glenn Greenwald, we’ve seen this with Matt Tabe. These are, you know, journalists who, when they’re writing stories that the left in support of, they’re considered heroes of the left when they’re attacking the right.
[00:17:07] Cameron: As soon as they write stories that are attacking. The left, particularly the Democrats in the us, they’re vilified not only by, you know, democratic politicians, but all of the Democratic supporters and the media. They attack their own, they eat their young attack. The journalists as being, you know, when Matt Tabe was writing the, uh, Twitter files stuff, he got absolutely attacked mercilessly by the rest of the media.
[00:17:36] Cameron: Greenwald gets it every time. He, you know, says something negative about a Democratic administration. Julian Assange obviously still in prison, and, uh, they’re trying to extradite him so he can serve 173 years in jail in the United States for revealing their crimes. And the second question, building on that is, is how is it coordinated?
[00:17:59] Cameron: How is it that all of the Western media in this particular instance, seem to have the same script? How does that work? How is it coordinated? Like there’s plenty of clips, I dunno if you’ve seen them on YouTube, where they do this with say, Fox News, where they’ll have, uh, you know, one reporter or on one of the shows on Fox, uh, not just on Fox News, but all the Fox stuff making a statement about, you know, this something wrong with the system.
[00:18:28] Cameron: And then they’ll just start adding clips of different Fox hosts saying the exact same words. And it’s just, they, they often when it’s talking about, you know, we’re fair and balanced and giving you independent thinking and it’s just, they’re all reading from the same script. So, and obviously it’s easy to understand how that happens inside of one outlet, but how does it happen right across.
[00:18:51] Cameron: Countries, different media outlets, some of them supposedly independent, like not government, uh, or, or the ABC, whatever we call the ABC here. Like it’s a independent government funded media company that supposedly independent and, and, you know, aspires to a higher level of journalistic integrity. But they’re singing from the same hymn sheet as Fox News and MSNBC and everybody else.
[00:19:23] Cameron: I can’t figure out really how that works if it’s coordinated or it’s just, Hey, we’re on this side of the, we’re on this side of the camp, so we’re just gonna
[00:19:35] Cameron: jump on board.
[00:19:36] Tony: Well, I think the answer is multifaceted. I think lazy journalism plays a part. So, you know, if Tucker Carlson broadcasts an interview overnight in Australian time, then there’s probably gonna be something on the wire. So on the Reuters or AAP or whoever else that these news outlets use, summarizing it.
[00:19:56] Tony: And they, oftentimes, it’s, it’s not the headline story for Australian News, so they’ll just copy and paste paragraphs and put it into their, their newspaper or into teleprompter for the news, and then maybe a day or two later realize they’ve got some of the things wrong, but it’s the news cycles moved on then.
[00:20:12] Tony: So I think lazy journalism is a part, I don’t think there’s a coordinated effort apart from that. I mean, those, those wire services go into every news outlet in the world. So there is a certain amount of similarity in, in what gets reported,
[00:20:28] Cameron: A Reuters or an
[00:20:28] Cameron: AAP feed that they’re grabbing it from.
[00:20:30] Tony: Correct, yeah. Quickly. And, you know, having an editor shout at them that the deadline’s looming and we have to put a story out about Putin.
[00:20:39] Tony: Um, I think there’s a bit of that. I think there’s also, unfortunately, these days probably, maybe it’s always been the same, but it didn’t feel that way when I was younger. There’s more of it these days where it’s an echo chamber. The media’s, the media outlets have drawn sides, which I think is also behind the attacks on Tucker Carlson.
[00:20:58] Tony: He’s from the other side and he’s an easy target, so we’re gonna focus on him. We’re not of that side because our listeners, our readers wanna hear something, you know, written about. It’s written about what they think. Um, and their, their point of view was they’re against the war in Ukraine, they’re against Putin and therefore against Putin, and they’re against.
[00:21:19] Tony: Fox News and therefore Tucker Carlson, even though Tucker Carlson doesn’t work for Fox News anymore. So there’s, there’s that kind of mindset as well. The, the tribalism of the media is more exaggerated these days I think, as well. Um, and then there’s the political sphere of things too. The tribalism either bled from politics or it’s bled into politics from the media, but the same sort of thing.
[00:21:40] Tony: I mean, uh, media Bytes a show on the ABC here at nine 30 in Australia on a Monday night regularly shows every morning news presenter across the commercial networks across the ABC saying the same thing, using the same phrase. So, you know, there’s an element of, of, um, it’s quick journalism. It’s coming from the same source, and occasionally they’re putting their
[00:22:02] Tony: own slant on it to try and appeal to their audience and
[00:22:05] Tony: get them to keep listening and watching what they say.
[00:22:08] Cameron: I think you’re probably right. Um, I think media outlets. No, you know, it’s an increasingly competitive media landscape and hard to run a profitable media business. Um, there’s been a number of articles I’ve read over the last month or so about all the major newspapers in the us, including the ones bought by billionaires like Jeff Bezos are struggling to make money.
[00:22:34] Cameron: They’re, they’re bleeding money and, uh, you know, smaller media outlets like Vice have shut down ’cause they couldn’t become or maintain profitable. Um, it’s, it’s a tough time out there. So they, you know, there’s business people knowing who their audience is. This is what our audience wants to hear, this is what our advertisers need to hear us say.
[00:22:58] Cameron: So they’ll continue to support it and you
[00:23:00] Cameron: just toe the line.
[00:23:02] Tony: Yeah, I was, I mean, I’d add to that. That, um, it was really the internet which killed journalism because when classified ads moved from newspapers to online, and we had companies like Seek in Australia and Realestate.com.au and Domain, and they’ve got other examples around the world where home ads and job ads go online.
[00:23:26] Tony: Then the newspapers lost what was called the rivers of gold, and they became unprofitable and they started sucking journalists to try and, um, cut costs to keep, keep things profitable. So they just isn’t the staff anymore to check. And coupled with, uh, as you say, ad advertisers who. Know that if they take out an ad in the garden, they’re not gonna sell many fridges, but if they take it out in a telegraph, they’re gonna sell all the fridges.
[00:23:54] Tony: So then, you know, you get this sort of cycle of we’ll advertise with you as long as you’re engaging with the readers in the western suburbs who are all new homeowners and wanna buy fridges. As soon as you lose that market, we’ll
[00:24:06] Tony: take our ads and put it somewhere else. So it’s a, it is a real echo chamber,
[00:24:10] Cameron: Or it’s, it’s as simple. Even if that conversation doesn’t happen, it’s like, give me your media kit. Who are your, who are your customers? What are the demographics? Yeah. Okay. That’s not our demographic. Sorry. If you wanna appeal to us, you have to be appealing to
[00:24:24] Cameron: that demographic, and that
[00:24:26] Tony: And the flips.
[00:24:27] Cameron: read you if they hear a certain kind of story.
[00:24:29] Tony: and the flip side applies too. Um, if, if, uh, the Guardian in Australia ran an article praising a. Tucker Carlson, it would start to lose readership and it would start to lose advertisements. And there are just different type of supplies with those ads in the Guardian. I mean, I haven’t read the Guardian for a long time, but I imagine it’s, you know, ads for wind farms and alternative energy and things like that.
[00:24:51] Tony: And they’re not gonna um, they’re not gonna keep paying the price they pay. Now if the Guardian’s readership goes down.
[00:24:58] Cameron: Yeah, so it’s, it’s basic economics, which is driving the slant on the coverage for a lot of these stories. And you know, it reminds me when I first moved to Brisbane, nearly, I don’t know, 16 years ago this year, I guess I was invited to, I think it was University of Queensland to speak as part of a panel to, uh, an incoming bunch of, uh, journalism students.
[00:25:29] Cameron: This is about 2008, would’ve been. And middle of 2008, and they got to, you know, my turn. It was, and the other people on the panel were all like editors and, you know, whatever’s, uh, real media, real journalists sort of people. And they’re all like, oh, it’s a very fine profession and it’s a, you know, it’s congratulations and blah, blah, blah.
[00:25:52] Cameron: They got to me, it’s a bunch of these poor eighteen-year-old kids. And I said, I just feel sorry for the lot of you because by the time you leave here, there aren’t gonna be any jobs left in journalism. And they’re like, oh, what? And, and, and they were like having a go. And I said, look, it’s just the economics man.
[00:26:06] Cameron: Like these journalism businesses are bleeding money and it’s not gonna stop. The economics of the, of the industry has fundamentally changed you. You, there aren’t gonna be any jobs. And they, they all said that I was being hyperbolic, uh, classic Cameron Reilly hyperbole, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, it played out that way.
[00:26:25] Cameron: You can’t fight the economics right.
[00:26:27] Tony: No, you can’t fight economics
[00:26:29] Tony: You’re right. But I think also too, around that time, I, I mean, um, wind the clock back a bit further, when I did intro journalism at Queensland Uni and, uh, I, I worked out pretty soon that, you know, from talking, but being in tutorials with editors from papers and, you know, lots of people would come and talk to the journalism classes almost every week.
[00:26:47] Tony: There’d be a different editor or, or someone coming along. They, you know, first of all, sport played a big part in, in journalism in Queensland. And secondly, it was a, it was a club, it was a network and they, the people who would, you know, that they were after were knock about rugby types who could have a beer with anyone and get, you know, catch someone off guard and do a gotcha type article.
[00:27:08] Tony: Uh, there there was two camps. There was those types of people, which was I think the, the, the majority. And then there was the, the, um, as you say, the honest independent professionals like Eleanor Taylor, I. Who argue at university. I think she now edits the Guardian, um, who does have, have high journalistic
[00:27:26] Tony: standards, but, but they’re in the minority. And and they’re in the minority because they, the careers that that they started off in just weren’t there
[00:27:33] Tony: for them in the end.
[00:27:35] Cameron: I think they’ve always been in the minority. And have you ever read Chomsky and Herman’s
[00:27:40] Cameron: manufacturing consent?
[00:27:42] Tony: Yeah. And seen the documentary.
[00:27:43] Cameron: Hmm. So the model that they put forward, which was Herman’s model, um, Chomsky gives him credit for it, and they got it from an Australian guy. You ever read the Australian guy that they got that from Herman Got it from, can’t remember his name.
[00:27:58] Cameron: He passed away quite young, sadly. Um, but he, he was a, I think he was from Queensland. He wrote a book in the early nineties, um, which I’ve got somewhere. But he, he basically broke down the model in the same way. And they, and Herman and Chomsky reference him and, um, give him credit for breaking it down. But he was basically saying that. You know, uh, and I, I think I talked about this a bit in our psychopath book, but that if you are, when you are interviewing as a journalist to get inside of a media organization, they’re looking for are you gonna fit in? Are you gonna be part of the team? Are you gonna work well? Are you, are you going to fit in with the culture of the organization?
[00:28:40] Cameron: And they will weed out people that have views that are diametrically opposed to them politically. Uh, and if somebody sneaks through and who has diametrically opposed, uh, political views and it starts to show up and they’re writing, they’ll be, they’ll be urged to get in line. And if they don’t, they’ll be put on the.
[00:29:02] Cameron: You know, a different bait, a sport bait or something that doesn’t have a political leading or, or an independent opportunity for independent thinking, or they’ll get fired or, or, you know, or conditions will be made so difficult for them to continue working there that they will pack their bag and go somewhere else.
[00:29:20] Cameron: There are different filter mechanisms that have always been in place to weed out the
[00:29:25] Cameron: undesirables.
[00:29:27] Tony: And the, the classic example, which happened just recently was Antoinette Latouf at the ABC.
[00:29:32] Cameron: exactly. Which you might wanna explain that story for our many international
[00:29:36] Cameron: listeners.
[00:29:38] Tony: Yeah. So, uh, she was a casual presenter who came in, uh, to the ABC, which is our, our national broadcaster, um, just on a short-term contract. Uh, and it was, you know, a light and breezy type type role. But, but she was, uh, an Arab Australian who was, um, pro-Palestine and, uh, and, and, um, against the Israeli aggression in Gaza.
[00:30:05] Tony: And she lasted three days and then was, um, sacked under pressure from a bunch of, uh, well, supposedly under pressure from a bunch of Jewish lawyers. I’m
[00:30:13] Tony: not sure if that actually happened, but that was alleged.
[00:30:16] Tony: Uh, but she was sacked by the ABC anyway, ’cause of, um, uh, certainly a, a heightened media profile over her stance.
[00:30:23] Cameron: Well there, I mean, there’s, there was evidence that the um,
[00:30:27] Cameron: Zionist Lobby group of Jewish lawyers, etc. Tried to put pressure on the
[00:30:32] Cameron: ABC. Coincidentally or not fired her. So yes, it’s not hard to draw the dots, even though the ABC denies that it had,
[00:30:43] Cameron: uh, any influence on it.
[00:30:45] Tony: Yeah. And I’ll say it. allegedly happened that way, but, but certainly the fact is she was, she was sacked after three days.
[00:30:52] Cameron: So I wanna talk a little bit about, uh, Putin’s, uh, claims
[00:30:57] Cameron: about the history. So,
[00:30:58] Cameron: uh, early on in
[00:30:59] Cameron: the interview, he says to Tucker, are we gonna have a serious conversation or is this just gonna be light frothy entertainment? Um, Tucker says, no, it’s gonna be serious. And Putin says, let me, let me take
[00:31:10] Cameron: 30 seconds to explain the history of Russia and
[00:31:12] Tony: Yeah.
[00:31:14] Cameron: And he’s obviously a fan of my podcasts because
[00:31:18] Cameron: half an hour later,
[00:31:19] Tony: podcast. Yeah.
[00:31:21] Cameron: half an hour later, he finally wrapped that up. But. Uh, a lot of the criticism about Putin in the media when he does this stuff is about his version of the history of Russia and Ukraine. Uh, and I, I’ll give you an example here. This is from the BBC, an article entitled Tucker Carlson Interview Fact Checking, Putin’s Nonsense History.
[00:31:49] Cameron: And they say, Sergey Radchenko historian at the John Hopkins School of Advanced International Study says the President’s claim is a complete falsehood. Vladimir Putin is trying to construct a narrative backwards, saying Russia as a state began its development in the ninth century. You could equally say that Ukraine as a state began its development in the ninth century exactly with the same kind of evidence and documents. So you, you see a lot of this in, um, the media coverage sort of. Uh, uh, sweeping attacks on Putin’s version of the history. But then they don’t actually say what he got wrong. It’s a complete falsehood. Alright, what did he actually get wrong? They don’t actually say what he got wrong. It’s just, oh, it’s just all nonsense.
[00:32:42] Cameron: So not being an expert on the history of this part of the world, um, what I did was I took the transcript, um, of the interview, took all of Putin’s statements and I put them into ChatGPT and I said, let me give you some quotes about the history of Russia and Ukraine and tell, tell me if they’re factually correct or not.
[00:33:08] Cameron: So I threw it all into ChatGPT and basically what it gave me back was, listen, this is actually correct. Um, the interpretation though. Of what this means is, uh, it’s a particular interpretation. Uh, and there are, it could be debated, you know, there are other views and, you know, it’s complicated. State-nation history, state history, very complicated and complex.
[00:33:39] Cameron: And there are a lot of intertwining factors and, you know, a, a different points of view that could be debated, et cetera, et cetera. But factually, it didn’t really have, um, any criticisms of, uh, I mean, I, I sent you the, the, the link to the
[00:33:55] Cameron: chat. Did you have a chance to read through that?
[00:33:58] Tony: I did, yeah. I read the other links too, from the B, B, C, et cetera on what they were saying about, about that too. Um, I, I, I guess, you know, let me preface my comments by saying, I, I think there’s a reason behind Putin spending half an hour at the start of the interview saying what he did.
[00:34:13] Cameron: Sure.
[00:34:13] Tony: Um, it’s, and it was, I, I, um, looked up.
[00:34:18] Tony: You know, the, the history as well. And I came across a Forbes magazine article, which I thought was, um, interesting, where they went into the, the fact that Putin had written an essay about this before the war and was basically regurgitating this in the first part of the interview. Um, I. Yeah. But, um, but, uh, the essence of that, of the Forbes article was that Putin wasn’t speaking to Carlson.
[00:34:42] Tony: He was speaking to his own people that, yeah, the, the Forbes article didn’t call it propaganda, but that’s probably what it was. It was Putin laying out his reasons for the war and hugging on the heartstrings of a particular demographic in Russia that, you know, he thought would support it, um, by going through the history of Ukraine, especially people who were older and, and probably had memories from World War II.
[00:35:06] Tony: So I, I think that’s one of the reasons why Putin did all that. I think the other reason he did it was it’s not a bad ploy. If you’re being interviewed and you’re not a hundred percent sure that the interview is going to give you a good hearing, it’s just to. To keep talking, to keep pushing your point of view and just see if they push back and ask questions.
[00:35:25] Tony: And, and Carlson didn’t, so Putin just laid out his whole manifesto for invading Ukraine, um, and which was, you know, couched in the guise of history. So I think that’s the first thing to say about it. Whether it’s right or wrong, Putin was talking to a demographic in Russia. It was, it was essentially propaganda and Carlson never picked him up.
[00:35:44] Tony: The other beautiful thing about that is because probably a lot of journalists didn’t have two hours to listen to the whole interview. They focus on the first 10 minutes. Um, and Criticise the history of it. But, but as we both know, it’s, it. History’s always open to interpretation. You know, I was trying to find analogies to it, and I sort of came up with two.
[00:36:04] Tony: One would be to say, if Australia invaded New Zealand on a justification that Captain Cook landed in both places, that, you know, it’s, it’s a pretty weak justification for it. But on the other hand, if the Aboriginals say, you know, we wanna take back Australia and we wanna fight for it because we were invaded, that’s probably a closer analogy to the sort of line that Putin was pushing, that Ukraine was part of Russia historically, and it’s, you know, through various events in history got separated and now it should be rejoined.
[00:36:33] Tony: So, you know, I, I get why he’s pushing that argument. But it, but you’re right, it was weak journalism to focus on that and to try, and it was smart of Putin to pick a fight on that. Like, let the journalists debate history with him.
[00:36:45] Tony: They’re not gonna win.
[00:36:47] Cameron: Yeah, look in Tucker Carlson’s preemptive example to airing the interview, he talked about the history lesson that Putin gave him and that they, he thought it was filibustering. He’s just trying to use up the time. Um, but then he changed his view on that. Uh, I don’t, I disagree that Putin was doing that for a Russian audience because Putin has no trouble.
[00:37:13] Cameron: Communicating to a Russian audience in Russia. He, he’s in Russian Media all the time. You know, he’s written articles, he gives speeches. He doesn’t need to tell this story to a Russian audience. The Russian audience that support Putin know this story and they
[00:37:29] Cameron: know his views on it.
[00:37:30] Tony: Well, sure. But, but this was the biggest story in Russian News. I mean, every, every news outlet was trumpeting the fact that a Western journalist had come to Russia and, and sat, sat down with Putin for two hours,
[00:37:41] Tony: and it had been a good interview. So it was getting a higher media profile. And the Russian audience he may have been targeting may not live in Russia.
[00:37:47] Tony: They may have
[00:37:48] Tony: maybe expats in the west as well.
[00:37:51] Cameron: Okay. I I, I do think he’s telling that story for international audiences as well.
[00:37:58] Tony: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:59] Cameron: But here’s my point, is that whatever his reasons are for telling the story, the story’s not incorrect as far as I can tell. With the limited amount of time I’ve had to research it. And also the fact that when I read the Western Media criticisms of the history, they don’t actually point out where he’s wrong.
[00:38:19] Cameron: They don’t say, this is factually incorrect or that is factually incorrect. Look it up. They go, well, yeah, but I could say that about this. Or it’s a, or blanket statements like it’s a complete falsehood, which it’s obviously not. Now I’ve got a lot of time for Sergey Rodchenko read a couple of his books.
[00:38:38] Cameron: He’s written a lot of good books on particularly the Cold War and the Atomic Bomb. Now he’s a Russian born academic, uh, I think Canadian academic. Um, Russian Canadian, but based at John Hopkins now. But, um, it’s obviously not a complete falsehood. So again, I have this question in my head is why can’t.
[00:39:02] Cameron: Academics or the media that are choosing which academics, and we know that they pick and choose who they’re gonna quote from. Why do they have to lie about this? Why do they have to say, why can’t they say, well, look, factually what he’s saying is correct. However, his interpretation of it is biased. Why does it have to, why do they have to say it’s a complete falsehood?
[00:39:24] Cameron: I remember when, um, the invasion first happened and I was on Facebook and I saw his story and friends of mine, um, in, in the US saying the same thing, complete falsehoods, including one guy who comes from that part of the world, complete falsehoods, f you know, Putin’s, fake history, blah, blah, blah. And I go, well, tell me exactly where he is wrong with the history.
[00:39:49] Cameron: Then they just disappear and they don’t come back to it. Like, he’s not like Putin’s a, he’s not an idiot. I love the fact that he said, uh, Carlson, I believe your background is in history. Right? ’cause Carlson’s got his Bachelor of history. I was thinking, yeah, Ray’s got a Bachelor of history too. I mean, they’re not worth much in the US apparently.
[00:40:06] Cameron: Uh, he, uh, but I’m pretty sure that Putin knows his history. He’s not just making this stuff up. Like he’s, he knows what he’s talking about. He’s, he’s a smart guy. He’s very well, you know, and, and, and the other thing I always think is,
[00:40:25] Cameron: I’d love to see an American president sit down and give an hour-long lecture on history.
[00:40:32] Cameron: Could you imagine Joe Biden sitting down and giving an hour-long lecture on something that happened, like the history of a region of the world over
[00:40:40] Cameron: 1500
[00:40:41] Tony: Well, you. You’d need a, like a
[00:40:43] Tony: sign language expert beside a, beside just going, no, no, no, no. Just
[00:40:48] Tony: He
[00:40:48] Tony: didn’t mean the, he didn’t mean the
[00:40:49] Tony: president of Mexico. He meant the president
[00:40:51] Cameron: Of Egypt. Yeah. Did you see John Stewart on the Daily Show last
[00:40:56] Cameron: week covering that?
[00:40:58] Tony: no.
[00:40:59] Cameron: He was telling the story and you know how the, um, special prosecutor looking into Biden’s Garage document said that he was a,
[00:41:08] Cameron: a well-meaning not nice old man with a poor memory. And then he had the bit where Biden got up, uh, in front of the Press Corps to like dispute this.
[00:41:16] Cameron: And then he, he walked away from the podium and John was like, yes, you nailed it. And then Putin starts to walk away. And then, uh, sorry. Putin. Biden starts to walk away. Then he stops and turns around and goes back to the party, mean John’s. Like, no, don’t go back. Don’t go back. And that’s when he delivered the president of Mexico line.
[00:41:36] Tony: Uh.
[00:41:38] Cameron: Like he is like, let, let me do a, let me do a one, uh, man play of what all of Biden’s advisors were doing at this moment. It’s just they’re throwing their notepads and pulling their hair out and screaming. Uh, anyway, um, so again, uh, the key point here is that it, it, it’s often interesting when I’m analyzing media stories about stuff like this to pay attention to what they’re not saying
[00:42:05] Tony: Mm-Hmm.
[00:42:07] Cameron: versus what they are saying.
[00:42:10] Cameron: Again, it’s if he is factually incorrect, if it is a complete falsehood. Why aren’t you telling me how it’s factually incorrect? I mean, that would be the obvious thing to do. It’s complete falsehood. For example, he made, he made points 1, 2, 3, 4, and five, and they’re all, and this is why they’re incorrect, right?
[00:42:30] Cameron: When they don’t do that, my bullshit filter goes off and I’m like, hold on a second, and well, why aren’t they telling me why it’s wrong? This article goes on to say, Mr. Radchenko denies Mr. Putin’s claims that Ukraine is not a real country because it was formed in its modern form in the 20th century. Now, Putin never said, Ukraine is not a real country.
[00:42:50] Tony: Mm.
[00:42:51] Cameron: Carlson said that,
[00:42:53] Tony: Yeah.
[00:42:55] Cameron: but Putin never said that. So again, they’re putting words in his mouth to make it seem
[00:43:04] Cameron: like he’s taking view. Now, what he did say is. After World War II Ukraine received, in addition to the lands that have belonged to Poland before the war, parts of the lands that have previously belonged to Hungary and Romania today, Western Ukraine.
[00:43:18] Cameron: So Romania and Hungary had some of their lands taken away and given to the Ukraine, and they still remain part of the Ukraine. So in this sense, we have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin’s will. Now, I don’t think that’s the same as saying Ukraine is not a real country.
[00:43:38] Tony: Yeah.
[00:43:39] Cameron: Am I being
[00:43:40] Tony: Look. No, no. Look, I agree with you a hundred percent. Um, but again, I, I think I’m kind of chomping at the bit to go past the history part of this interview because, uh, you know, I think, I think Putin’s very smart and he knows that a lot of the journalists wouldn’t get past the history part of the interview.
[00:43:56] Tony: And you can debate history until the cows come home and, and, uh, you know, he, neither side’s really gonna win. I agree with all your points about, about the attacks being subjective and,
[00:44:08] Tony: um, not focusing on the facts and just focusing on interpretation, but I’d much rather talk about some of the other things that Putin’s talked about in the, in the interview.
[00:44:19] Tony: Yeah.
[00:44:19] Cameron: let’s get to it
[00:44:20] Cameron: then. What do you wanna talk about?
[00:44:22] Tony: Well, I think all of the, all of the things that, um. He, he spoke about that interests me, were after that. So he, he, he made a claim that Poland started World War II, which I thought was, was interesting about the invasion of Poland and, and how they invited Hitler to, to come into Poland. Um, you know, so again, not
[00:44:43] Cameron: no, not that
[00:44:44] Tony: historical subjective interpretation, but a quite a big one I thought.
[00:44:49] Cameron: he didn’t say they invited him to come into Poland.
[00:44:52] Tony: I think he did. I’ll try and find, I’ll try and find the, the, um, art, the article, if I can do it quickly.
[00:44:58] Cameron: What he said from memory was that he called
[00:45:03] Cameron: Poland a collaborator. he said they collaborated with the, Nazis. Some historians have taken issue with that, and I think that’s a, that’s a fair thing. Like collaboration is a big word, but. What is factually correct is that when Hitler was, um, when, when the Munich agreement was signed, which was going to give Germany some land, and Czechoslovakia, Poland jumped on board and took land from Czechoslovakia as well when they were weak.
[00:45:37] Cameron: They took advantage of Czechoslovakia’s, uh, weakness at the time to grab some territory. And then Hitler wanted some territory from Poland. The Danzig corridor. Poland refused to give it up, and so Hitler invaded, but they had been in, in Putin’s words, they collaborated. Now, you know, you could pick that apart.
[00:46:06] Cameron: Did they collaborate or did they just take advantage? Like the, the issue that I’ve read that historians have is that collaboration. Suggests, uh, joint strategic diplomatic agreement to attack a, a country in this instance. Um, did they have, were there diplomatic conversations between Nazi, Germany and Poland?
[00:46:30] Cameron: Yes. Is that collaboration the way it’s portrayed as well? Poland didn’t have a lot of choice in the matter because Nazi Germany was this more powerful, aggressive country on the border, and so they had to go along with it wasn’t really collaboration. And I’m like, Hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, you could say the same thing about the Munich agreement.
[00:46:56] Cameron: Um, you know, was Neville Chamberlain collaborating with Hitler when they agreed to the Munich agreement, or was he just feeling like I. They couldn’t, they didn’t want to have a war with Nazi Germany at the time. So appeasement was the better option. Is that collaboration? I think it maybe is
[00:47:18] Tony: Yeah, maybe so. So the, you’re right about, I, I shouldn’t have said that. Putin said Poland invited Hitler in the quote is in 1939. This is Putin speaking After Poland cooperated with Hitler, it did collaborate with Hitler, you know, Hitler offered Poland Peace and a Treaty of Friendship and Alliance. We have all the relevant documents in the archives demanding in return that Poland give back to Germany.
[00:47:39] Tony: The,
[00:47:40] Tony: so-called Danzig Corridor, which connected the bulk of Germany with East Prussia and Königsberg. Yeah, so the, the, the, the claim was collaboration.
[00:47:51] Cameron: collaboration and cooperation, and
[00:47:53] Cameron: again, like he’s not wrong. From a particular point of view, you can argue what is the definition
[00:48:00] Cameron: of collaboration and cooperation. But they did, you know, they did cooperate, they did take advantage of the situation. You can say, well, they didn’t have much option, but you know, neither did the, the Vichy government in France have much option, but we still criticized them as collaborators.
[00:48:22] Cameron: I mean, you can say no and get shot, but, or you can collaborate and try and make the best of a bad situation,
[00:48:29] Cameron: I guess. I dunno,
[00:48:31] Tony: Yeah, Well, I guess like,
[00:48:33] Tony: sorry. No, I’m not disagreeing with you. I guess the reason for raising that is to talk about, there seems to be the, the link between what happened in that part of Europe and World War II and what’s happening in Ukraine and neo-Nazis, and that that was a, a kind of a key point that, that Putin’s making.
[00:48:49] Tony: He was, he was saying that one of his reasons for invading Ukraine is a denazification, or that’s one of, one of his requirements for a truce is the Denazification of U of Ukraine. And I thought, I still think that’s very interesting. And, and again, I’m wondering whether he’s, he’s playing to his audience at home on that one because I read a couple of articles.
[00:49:10] Tony: NPR was this one. Uh, NPR was a good one. Um, about, about the issue in Ukraine, I won’t read it out, it’s quite long. But basically it says that, um, sure they’re in the N Nazis in Ukraine, about 2% of the population. There’s the people who fall in the, I think it’s called the ZOS Regimen. Um. Before the Ukraine war and during the Ukraine war.
[00:49:33] Tony: Uh, but they point out that 2% of the population who claim to be neo-Nazis is actually less than that. The situation in the US where there’s far more ultra-right, uh, members of the public than in Ukraine. So it’s a fairly normal thing in a lot of Western countries. It’s particularly in Europe to have, uh, sort of fringe neo-Nazi element.
[00:49:51] Tony: So why, why do you think
[00:49:53] Tony: Putin is making a big deal of Denazification, the denazification of
[00:49:59] Tony: Ukraine?
[00:50:01] Cameron: I think, I think this is, um, part of, you know, his, um, propaganda back to his home audience. Um, and I’ve always felt that this is the weakest of his arguments and his justifications. But what I also have seen happen in the last couple of years is how the Western media has absolutely tried to refute. This argument that there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine when before February, 2000 twenty-two, the Western media was regularly running stories about Nazis being a big problem in Ukraine.
[00:50:47] Cameron: And I’ve got an archive of documents about this. Here’s a quote from a rolling, recent Rolling Stone article about the interview. It says, Putin spoke at length about his wish to bring Denazification to Ukraine. And while the nation does have a dark history of association with Nazism and neo-Nazi factions, particularly in the context of World War II experts widely agree, this is a propaganda ploy used as a justification for the invasion.
[00:51:13] Cameron: Except, um, you know, there are lots of, uh, articles, as I said that seem to think that West had a problem with the Nazis in Ukraine before the invasion. Here’s a link to a Reuters article. From, um, the 7th of February, 2024, it said, oh, hold on. No, that’s on, uh, that’s on Nord Stream. Let me, um, get to the find.
[00:51:49] Cameron: Yes. Here we go. This is from the Guardian in 2014, Azov fighters are Ukraine’s greatest weapon and maybe its greatest threat. And this is around about the time of the beginning of the Donbass situation, the Guardian says, but there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine’s most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government and perhaps even the state.
[00:52:17] Cameron: When the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi leanings of many of its members. The battalion’s symbol is reminiscent of the Nazi wolf’s angel. Though the battalion claims, it is in fact meant to be the letters N and I crossed over each other standing for national idea.
[00:52:37] Cameron: Many of its members have links with neo-Nazi groups, and even those who laughed off the idea that they are neo-Nazis did not give the most convincing denials. Fighters from the battalion told the Guardian last month, they expected a new revolution in Ukraine that would bring a more decisive military leader to power in sentiments similar to those of many Azov fighters.
[00:52:58] Cameron: Despite the desire of many in the Azov to bring violence to Kiev when the war in the east is over. The battalion receives funding and assistance from the governor of the Donetsk region, the oligarch Serhii Taruta. In 2018, the US declared C-Fourteen or S-Fourteen, the CIS Group, uh, in Ukraine as a hate group.
[00:53:23] Cameron: And I’ve got a, an article from Radio Liberty, which is a. US, uh, propaganda Radio station in Europe. Set up part of the Marshall plan says Ivan Stupak, a former SBU employee, SBU being the secret service of the Ukraine with 10 years of experience, said at certain stages the SBU involved its operational contacts.
[00:53:49] Cameron: That is, they found certain common points of view with leaders of C-Fourteen, and directed them to solve certain operational tasks. Um, and it goes on to talk about all the connections between government funding and Secret service and the far-right movement, et cetera, et cetera. So there’s plenty of stories like that.
[00:54:09] Cameron: Uh, but from before twenty-Twenty-two Western governments and the Western media definitely did see these Nazi groups in Ukraine as a significant issue. But post the twenty-two invasion, oh, it’s all just propaganda that Putin. Is spinning. Now, I do think, as I said, it’s his, probably his weakest argument. I think his strongest justification is for is the Nazi, the NATO, uh, enlargement.
[00:54:37] Cameron: But,
[00:54:39] Cameron: you know, I do think he is being genuine when he says part of the conditions that they have is the elimination of neo-Nazis off the border between Ukraine and Russia. I mean, I, I, you know, it’s important for us outside of Russia to remember that the Nazis killed 20 million Russians in World War II
[00:55:04] Cameron: and you know, part of.
[00:55:07] Cameron: The breakup of Germany after World War II was to ensure that the Russians were never bothered by the Germans, the fascists. Again, fascists obviously having a big hatred at the time for communists and Jews, uh, and particularly Jewish communists, um, Ukraine. It’s more Catholic fascists that have been the problem.
[00:55:28] Cameron: But, you know, he, it is a, I think it’s a genuine concern and I think it’s a, a genuine issue, whether or not it’s as big a deal as he makes it out to be,
[00:55:38] Cameron: you know,
[00:55:39] Tony: Well, well actually, I mean, I highlight it because I think, I think you’re right. I think it was a big deal and I think that there was certainly Russian. Speakers in Donbass who were chased out back into Russia by, by, uh, some element of that military slash neo-Nazi, um, power in the Donbass reasons. So I think it is actually an, an issue.
[00:56:03] Tony: Um, but, but as you say, that’s one of the things about the war that gets, gets clouded. It’s, uh, the West has gone from a, from acknowledging the existence of these people to saying it’s propaganda by Putin. But I actually think it’s a key issue for them, not just because of the history of fighting against the Nazis and, and all of that, but because in the Donbass region that’s kind of borderland.
[00:56:25] Tony: There is a, I can’t, I can’t speak to it being a, a neo-Nazi mentality, I’ll call it the pro-Ukrainian mentality. And there’s a Russian affiliated population, and the two haven’t mixed very well, and I think Putin probably is legitimate in asking for claims. Whether it should be called Denazification or not
[00:56:43] Tony: is another issue.
[00:56:45] Cameron: The ABC had an article that I read, Tucker Carlson Vladimir Putin interview explained. It said. Russia’s aim to denazify, Eastern Ukraine, a claim that has been described as propaganda by hundreds of historians who study genocide. I read that and I thought, what if historians who, what do historians who have studied genocide have to do with his claims about Nazis in Ukraine?
[00:57:11] Cameron: It seems like a non-secretary, but, but I read, um, this article again, this is, um, from Radio Freedom. Facebook bans Ukrainian, far-right Group Over Hate speech, but getting rid of it isn’t easy. And it said Human rights groups such as Free. This is from 2019. Human rights groups such as Freedom House of Warned that Azov’s increasing visibility and impunity is a cause for concern.
[00:57:37] Cameron: Far-right? Political forces present a real threat. To the democratic development of Ukrainian society set a recent Freedom House report referring to Azov and similar groups. That threat is not due to political support. Polls show its political party. National Core is supported by less than 1% of Ukrainians.
[00:57:54] Cameron: But because the far right is aggressively trying to impose the regender on Ukrainian society, including by using force against those who oppose political and cultural views. Last month, group of seven ambassadors in Kiev sent a letter to Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov urging him to act against the groups, which it said threatened to disrupt the country’s election and usurp the role of the Ukrainian National Police.
[00:58:20] Cameron: The ambassadors asked the ministers to also consider outlawing the groups down the road. Would you be so kind as to outlaw Nazi groups? That’d be great. Thanks. So in twenty-nineteen, the G-Seven was writing a letter to the Ukrainian government. Say, you’ve gotta denazify your country. Now Putin says it and everyone’s like,
[00:58:41] Cameron: ah, what’s he talking about?
[00:58:42] Cameron: It’s all
[00:58:43] Tony: Yeah. And look, and not just that, but like this NPR article. Uh, talks about, it’s a harmful distortion and dilution of history. They say, talking about the, um, Holocaust experts, even though many people appear not to be buying at this time round. Laura Jakusch, a professor of Holocaust studies at Brandeis University in Massachusetts told NPR over email that Putin’s claims about the Ukrainian army allegedly perpetrating a genocide against Russians in the Donbass region are completely unfounded, but politically useful to him.
[00:59:14] Cameron: See, like,
[00:59:15] Cameron: so
[00:59:15] Tony: Were they there? That’s the first thing. But the other thing too is these articles always end with the point
[00:59:20] Tony: being made. Anzalensky is a Jew.
[00:59:23] Cameron: yeah.
[00:59:24] Tony: As if, as if that kind
[00:59:25] Tony: of, you can just go, okay, well, we’ll just wipe our hands of a
[00:59:27] Tony: Nazi problem in Ukraine then.
[00:59:29] Cameron: Which Putin himself said in the interview, and he said, and Zelensky’s father or grandfather fought the Nazis. He goes, why? I said to this is Putin saying it. He said, I said to Zelensky, why aren’t you getting rid of these guys like your own father or grandfather who was fought against these guys? Seems strange to me that you’re allowing them in your country, but what am I gonna do?
[00:59:51] Cameron: Kind of thing. Um, but like, I dunno, man, like it just drives me nuts that Cameron Reilly with a couple of hours on his hands can look up the history of neo-Nazis in Ukraine and there’s all this stuff. And yet the mainstream media seems to think they can just run this stuff. And like, there’s just no sense of, oh, maybe we should
[01:00:16] Cameron: just tell the truth about this. And, you
[01:00:18] Tony: and there’s, no fact-checking, right? Like you would think NPR, which is the National public radio in the US, would have a more independent stance on things, but. Putin says that he needs to denazify Ukraine. They go straight to an academic who disagrees with that, and they publish the academic side.
[01:00:33] Tony: Now, whether this is meant to be balanced journalism, I’ve got Putin’s argument on one hand, and there’s academics on the other. I’m not sure, but it doesn’t, I found it very hard to get to the facts on this, you know, what is happening in the Donbass region? How many, how many Russian speakers had fled across the border back into Russia?
[01:00:50] Tony: Was that a legitimate reason for Putin invading and what’s happening now? Why is there a Jewish president in in Ukraine, but he’s allowing the neo-Nazi Azov’s brigade to take a lead part in the war? They’re really interesting questions. I don’t have an opinion either way, but I’m not getting at the facts through the media.
[01:01:09] Cameron: Well, you know that before Zelensky was the president of Ukraine, he played the president of Ukraine on television. Which reminds me of,
[01:01:17] Cameron: I don’t know, just Ronald,
[01:01:19] Tony: Ronald, Reagan Yeah.
[01:01:21] Cameron: even to a certain extent.
[01:01:23] Tony: Yeah.
[01:01:23] Cameron: also, look, we’ve, we’ve talked about this a lot on this show, Tony, but there, um, are you aware of the Victoria Newland
[01:01:30] Cameron: phone
[01:01:31] Cameron: call from 2014?
[01:01:32] Cameron: You’ve
[01:01:33] Tony: I’ve heard it on your show before.
[01:01:34] Tony: Yeah.
[01:01:34] Cameron: Right. So there seems to be, uh, that as evidence that, uh, among other things like her talking in other interviews about
[01:01:44] Cameron: how much money they spent on democracy in Ukraine before the Maidan protests it, it just fits the, the template, the CIA’s template that they’ve been following since they overthrew Mossadegh in the early fifties in Iran for going into a country, uh, behind the scenes funding.
[01:02:09] Cameron: Protest movements, activists, uh, political troublemakers saying, listen, do this. We’ll, we’ll have your back, you know, we’ll, we’ll give you air cover, et cetera, et cetera, and if you win, we will support, you know, you and your chosen, or we’ll tell you who to put in power, but we’ll give you air cover. It just fits the model.
[01:02:29] Cameron: And then when that call was leaked, it just seems to be pretty strong evidence that that’s what was
[01:02:35] Cameron: going on behind the
[01:02:36] Tony: Yeah, well, I’m gonna draw a longer bow, right? That, that the, if the CIA was gonna fund anybody, it’s more likely to be on the right than on the left. And if, if the, if the military industrial complex in the States is funneling money towards fighting in the Ukraine, and the league group is the ASOS group and they have links to neo-Nazis, and you could also draw the line that America’s happily funding them.
[01:03:01] Tony: So
[01:03:03] Tony: we’re not finding out what’s going on
[01:03:05] Tony: here, unfortunately.
[01:03:06] Cameron: Well, the US tends to. Support whoever’s going to best serve their interests, which makes sense, whether they’re on the left or the right, but usually it’s on the right, as you say. Um, there’s the famous, uh, uh, what was her name? Jeannie. Something begins with Letter F doctrine. Can’t remember her name. Fitz Gibbons or something like that.
[01:03:36] Cameron: Fitzsimmons. She was a strategic advisor, uh, in the Reagan years and basically her doctrine was, yeah, it’s easier for us to do business with guys who are on the right than guys on the left. Right. You
[01:03:52] Tony: Yeah.
[01:03:52] Cameron: So they’re usually gonna be the ones we’ll do business with. The other issue that all these articles take is about the outbreak of the conflict in Donbass in 2014, uh, which they usually try and, um, lay at the feet of Putin, make it sound like Putin invaded.
[01:04:13] Cameron: But I always point to a Rand Corporation, uh, um, article investigation report on this Rand Corporation being obviously a, an American, um, think tank when they did their report on it, uh, 10 years ago. They said the conflict started as a local affair, but was quickly supported by Russia. Set a coterie of, well-known local political agitators, businessmen and members of fringe political organisations with a Russian imperialist bent led the effort.
[01:04:48] Cameron: Moscow sought to foster this movement in Ukraine through oligarchic connections and intertwined circles of powerful regional business interests. Combined with local criminal elements. The tactics appeared to be improvised, employing a diversity of individuals with little in common, other than their opposition to Ukraine’s new government.
[01:05:06] Cameron: Russia fostered the subversion with a supporting cast of intelligence operatives, its own citizens and informal network of fighters from the post-Soviet space and local security forces who turned against Ukraine’s government. So if the Americans were running their own. Secret operations to install a pro-American government in Ukraine Russia had their own forces in there to maintain a pro-Russian government.
[01:05:33] Cameron: Uh, and the two were fighting behind the scenes. But you know, what ended up happening is the Donbass breakout was genuinely, according to Rand, a civil war. It was a local affair with both sides, you know, having secret support from other major powers. Um, but it was at Moscow marching an army in Now what the distinction is between the two, you know, there’s another
[01:06:03] Cameron: story
[01:06:05] Tony: Yeah.
[01:06:05] Tony: But, uh, that’s, and that’s a good point too. We, we’ve,
[01:06:08] Tony: you know, we might sound, I might sound critical of the US on all this, but it happens on
[01:06:12] Tony: both sides. We’re just calling it out ’cause it’s not reported.
[01:06:15] Cameron: Yeah. I mean, we, anyone who’s spent any time studying Cold War history, uh, knows that this is the way the Cold War has been played out. You know, it’s, uh, uh, uh, it’s a, it’s a soft power. It’s hybrid warfare. You’re trying to influence the, the, the media and the government and the businesses and the politicians in a country using bribery and influence and, uh, promises and all that kind of stuff, and, and all of the major powers, if they can afford to do it, do it.
[01:06:48] Cameron: I, I tend to subscribe to John Mearsheimer’s geopolitical realism camp that says that major powers in any region, um, know that if they’re not the strongest power in the region, then they’ll, they’re gonna get attacked. They’re gonna be, you know, attacked by other stronger powers. It gets back to the dark forest hypothesis kind of right, that if.
[01:07:15] Cameron: If you are a power in a region and you think there’s another power coming up that may be stronger than you, you kind of have an incentive to get in and hobble them or weaken them or take them over. Because if they become more powerful than you in the future, then you are the victim.
[01:07:30] Tony: Mm-Hmm.
[01:07:30] Cameron: It’s just political
[01:07:32] Tony: And we’re seeing it play out with Australia and the Pacific. Islands at the moment too, as Russia tries to ramp up if its influence and Australia has to counter. So it happens in every, uh, China, I’m
[01:07:42] Tony: sorry, China, uh, it happens in every sphere of influence. I agree. But we just don’t read about
[01:07:47] Tony: it overtly.
[01:07:50] Tony: We try and put the, try and connect the dots, but we don’t read about it overtly.
[01:07:53] Cameron: it
[01:07:53] Cameron: doesn’t get talked about in, you know, mainstream media outlets, like, okay, Mearsheimer does. But as Mearsheimer says, like increasingly he and his colleagues, uh, who push realism just a shut out of the media. I, I heard him being interviewed. I think it was on Lex Friedman’s podcast a while back, and he was saying like, even in the early two thousands when he and, um, his colleague whose name escapes me, wrote a book on the Is,
[01:08:27] Cameron: Hmm,
[01:08:27] Tony: Was it Green Wall?
[01:08:29] Cameron: no, no, no.
[01:08:31] Cameron: Um, he’s passed away, but he was a leading scholar, uh, Stephen Walt when he and Stephen Walt wrote a book called The Israel Lobby, which I read 20 odd years ago, talking about the, the influence that the Israel lobby has in US politics. Uh, he said even though they got attacked right across the board, at least they were given airtime.
[01:08:55] Cameron: You know, they were able, they were being interviewed in the New York Times and they were on television and that kinda stuff. He said, now no one will even. Talk to us, uh, about, you know, what’s going on in Russia and Ukraine. It’s like he said, it’s far more of a closed down media ecosystem today than it was 20, 30 years ago
[01:09:18] Cameron: in the United States,
[01:09:20] Tony: That’s interesting, isn’t it? I mean, that’s, that speaks
[01:09:23] Tony: and that speaks volumes though, doesn’t it?
[01:09:25] Tony: If, if the, if a media outlet’s applying council culture, rather than saying, come and debate this
[01:09:29] Tony: with the Israel lobby, uh, it’s not really journalism, is it?
[01:09:33] Cameron: Um, no, it’s, it’s, well, you know, I mean, I, however you wanna define journalism. Um, I’ve got some other
[01:09:42] Tony: Yeah.
[01:09:43] Cameron: here I wanna run through. So, um, this is, uh, from the BBC for fans who managed to stay tuned any longer. The reward was a rerun of Putin’s top twisted arguments. some neutral journalism for you. Um, he, they go on to say he aired his regular grievance about NATO expanding east into what Russia sees as its area of influence. We never agreed Ukraine could join NATO, as Putin put it, but it’s having an aggressive, unpredictable neighbor like Russia that’s led Ukraine to seek extra security.
[01:10:22] Cameron: Not true. Uh, we know the history of this. We know that all of the polls in Ukraine. Said, uh, you know, going back 20, uh, 10, 20 years ago showed that that people had no interest in joining NATO. But then the coup happened and there was, uh, a lot of investment by NATO in, uh, Ukraine to build up, like promotion for NATO.
[01:10:53] Cameron: A lot of funding in there. And of course, then they ended up with a pro-American government after the 2014 quote, coup if it in fact was a coup, which, and they’ve been pushed into joining NATO by various forces. But before that, Ukrainians had no interest in joining NATO, nato, uh, it’s, they say Putin has always characterized the mass public protests in Kiev a decade ago as part of a western backed coup, which they were not, says the BBC, according to whom, based on what evidence.
[01:11:24] Cameron: Mentioned Victoria Newland’s phone call. No, just, and this is BBC man.
[01:11:30] Cameron: Like, um,
[01:11:32] Tony: It’s journalism. It’s really, it’s really editorial, isn’t it? It’s not journalism at all.
[01:11:36] Cameron: yeah, It’s all editorial these days. Um, New York Times Tucker Carlson’s lesson in the perils of giving airtime to
[01:11:43] Cameron: an autocrat. Mr. Putin conducted a history lecture that provided a one-sided, often false narrative about Ukraine says The New York Times one-sided. Yes. False. Probably not. Hillary Clinton in an interview this week with Alex Wagner of MSNBC called, uh, Carlson a useful Idiot, and Mr.
[01:12:04] Cameron: Putin’s puppy dog Mr. Carlson gave Mr. Putin room for uninterrupted disquisitions. That’s a new word for me.
[01:12:13] Cameron: What’s a disquisition? Tony? You ever use that
[01:12:15] Cameron: in a
[01:12:16] Tony: no idea. No.
[01:12:17] Cameron: On longstanding and decidedly one-sided grievances about Ukraine’s origins and independence movements, said un uninterrupted. He actually did interrupt him a number of times, Carlson, in that first half hour rant.
[01:12:32] Cameron: He kept trying to interrupt him, and Putin was just like, just, just hold on. Let me, let me finish my story. And he would
[01:12:38] Tony: seconds more, 30 seconds more.
[01:12:40] Cameron: he was saying he was uninterrupted, but it’s not. He, Carlson tried to, I interrupt him on a number. Carlson looked very confused and very troubled from the beginning of the
[01:12:48] Cameron: whole thing.
[01:12:49] Cameron: Like, where’s
[01:12:49] Cameron: this going?
[01:12:50] Tony: I’d be inclined to agree with someone who said that Carlson Softballed Putin.
[01:12:54] Cameron: Softballed him, sure, but
[01:12:55] Tony: tried, tried to interrupt a
[01:12:56] Tony: couple of times, but but once every 10 minutes isn’t really, you know,
[01:13:00] Cameron: but what are you
[01:13:01] Cameron: gonna do? I mean, how are you gonna say, look, just shut the fuck up Mr. Putin,
[01:13:06] Cameron: and, and answer my questions. I mean, you’re not gonna get anywhere with that, I don’t think Putin’s gonna
[01:13:12] Cameron: let you run things. Although the
[01:13:14] Tony: I, I must imagine,
[01:13:15] Tony: sorry. I, imagine, that the, one of the conditions for the interview was that it couldn’t be edited too otherwise, you know, uh, Carlson may
[01:13:23] Tony: have decided just to let it run and then cut it down for use, but he didn’t do that. So I’m guessing that was a condition.
[01:13:29] Cameron: Probably. And, um, I was gonna say that, you know, uh, since the interview, Putin has come out in Russian Media and said that he, he found the interview disappointing and almost
[01:13:40] Tony: Yeah,
[01:13:42] Cameron: Carlson’s taking a victory lap. And Putin’s, like, I actually expected him to ask some hard questions. Like, uh, I, I was prepared for an aggressive
[01:13:51] Cameron: interview and it was really not.
[01:13:52] Cameron: So, so
[01:13:54] Cameron: that’s,
[01:13:55] Tony: yeah. No, exactly.
[01:13:57] Cameron: Putin’s, even Putin’s not giving him, uh,
[01:14:00] Cameron: any, any props for it.
[01:14:02] Tony: And Putin said a lot of interesting things. I mean, the whole, there was a discussion, well, there was a, the
[01:14:06] Tony: point about Boris Johnson intervening in the, in the Peace
[01:14:10] Tony: talks, I Ukraine we’re having with Russia. I mean that, that, that could have been a whole topic of interviewing itself, but it just sort of
[01:14:16] Tony: sailed through.
[01:14:18] Cameron: Yeah, and we’ve, we’ve talked about that on this show. We, we know that that’s true. Um, we know that they were, you know, Zelensky and, and Putin, uh, all their representatives were on the verge of signing an agreement early in 2022. Then Boris Johnson, when he was still Prime Minister, made a three day trip to Kiev, and then the deal was off.
[01:14:40] Cameron: And basically, Boris Johnson in his own words, said that he told Zelensky not to surrender, that he had the full support of the West. Now, what else he said, uh, about what would happen to Zelensky if he did surrender? Um, we don’t know, but it’s, it’s quite obvious that the war would’ve been over. Within a couple of months if the US and the UK hadn’t decided to prolong it forever.
[01:15:08] Cameron: Which reminds me a lot of the Afghanistan situation in the late seventies, which I’ve done shows about, it was deliberately extended for 10 years by the United States in the words of Zbigniew, Brzezinski, Jimmy, Carter’s, national Security Advisor, uh, at the time. He later said that he went into Carter and said, if we play this right, we can give the Soviet Union its own Vietnam.
[01:15:39] Cameron: And then he was quite proud of the fact that they did that later in life, um, that they managed to economically bogged down and cripple the Soviet Union by supporting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. And this, to me just looks like the same thing. They’re using the Ukrainians as. Uh, fodder now to try and further weaken
[01:16:01] Cameron: Russia economically New York
[01:16:04] Tony: Potentially it’s, it’s backfiring though in the us. I mean, they’re, they’re the one who’s bogged down in Congress with contention over paying so much for the war in, in Ukraine.
[01:16:13] Cameron: Yeah, but the guys in the US that got the
[01:16:15] Cameron: money, it all played out
[01:16:18] Cameron: perfectly, right? I mean, the way I’ve always pictured it’s a win-win
[01:16:21] Cameron: situation for American businesses with this if they win and they managed to keep control of Ukraine. Then they get access to its markets, they get access to. Its, its natural resources.
[01:16:34] Cameron: They, they get, you know, bases again, more bases on the border of Russia to further weaken Russia. I mean, what’s up for grabs is all of the energy supply into
[01:16:44] Tony: grain.
[01:16:45] Cameron: you know, and grain. Yeah. Right. All of that, all of the economic supply that Russia has a big chunk of, if you’re an American business person with interests in Europe and in the Middle East, et cetera, et cetera, you want to get access to those markets.
[01:16:59] Cameron: If they, so if they win the war, they get that, or get to keep that or get more of that. If they lose the war, well, you know, we still got a hundred billion dollars of, uh, American taxpayers money over a few years, like happy days.
[01:17:14] Cameron: Right. It’s a
[01:17:15] Tony: Yeah. So there’s no incentive to do the, to do a negotiation. Is there a peace negotiation?
[01:17:21] Cameron: Not if you are an American businessman or an American politician. Yeah, if you’re a Ukrainian soldier, maybe, or a
[01:17:27] Cameron: Russian soldier. Um, another interesting thing in the New York Times, as Putin threatens despair and hedging in Europe,
[01:17:35] Cameron: it actually admits that Putin was complaining about NATO expansion back in 2007.
[01:17:40] Cameron: It talks about this conference that just happened at the Hotel Bayeriska Hof. It says in the Hotel Bayeriska Hof, the conference stage where Mr. Putin warned in 2007 that NATO’s eastern expansion was a threat to Russia Mr. Navalny’s widow made an emotional appearance on Friday hours after a husband’s death reminding attendees that Mr.
[01:18:03] Cameron: Putin would bear responsibility for it. Um, leaving aside the Navalny stuff, uh, it’s a rare admission in the Western media that the NATO expansion issue. Didn’t just start getting invented by Putin in February, 2022. You know, that normally in Western media just gets rejected out hand as being nonsense.
[01:18:30] Cameron: Got nothing to do with NATO, despite the fact that Putin and before him, um, you know, going back to Gorbachev and then, um, who was the guy after Gorbachev? I’ve got a mental blank. Uh, Yeltsin, Yeltsin all took issue with the NATO expansion when it started happening in ninety-six under Clinton. I. You know, they’ve been beating on about it for nearly 30 years.
[01:18:59] Cameron: Stop the NATO expansion. Stop the NATO expansion. Stop the NATO expansion. Finally, they invade and they say, why are NATO expansion? What? That’s dev. Well, that’s got nothing to do with it. Never heard that before. Like seriously. And again, the way the media just writes it off as that, it’s just nonsense. It’s got nothing to do with NATO expansion.
[01:19:16] Cameron: Like it boggles the mind.
[01:19:18] Tony: Yeah.
[01:19:19] Cameron: CBC, Canadian broadcasters barely mentions Putin’s actual talking points. Only after 30 paragraphs of Criticising Carlson did they get to anything that Putin had to say.
[01:19:33] Cameron: Putin, in the Russian interview where he said that the interview was disappointing also said he’d rather have Biden continue as US president because he’s predictable. Can you imagine if he’d said the opposite, how the Democrats would be losing their damn minds at the moment if he said, oh, I’d rather have Trump as president.
[01:19:49] Cameron: See? See? Trump’s a Russian puppet. He said, Biden, and this is like
[01:19:56] Cameron: crickets.
[01:19:57] Tony: Yeah. Biden’s, other Putin puppet. Yeah. No, I, I did see that one too. The other interesting thing I thought, um, that was, let’s slide by Carlson again, was when Putin told his story about,
[01:20:08] Tony: uh, going to Clinton and saying, uh, Hey, that Russia joined NATO? Were you, and Clinton said, yeah, okay. And then came back that night and said, no,
[01:20:16] Tony: sorry.
[01:20:16] Tony: Can’t do it.
[01:20:17] Cameron: My advisors told me I can’t do that. Yeah. Yeah. That’s well, uh, documented as well that Russia tried to join NATO. I. Just got shut out. Um, you know, and this goes right back to, um, Gorbachev, plenty of interviews on record about this when they were doing the whole collapsing of the Soviet Union and, uh, you know, the, the promise about No NATO and he agreed to the reunification of Germany.
[01:20:48] Cameron: He was putting forward propositions that they form a new security, global security alliance that they could all be part of and, you know, was given nods and winks. Oh, sure, sure, sure. We can do that. And then just shut out. It just, you know, once the Americans felt that they’d won the Cold War, they weren’t giving up any play in anything.
[01:21:08] Cameron: Politico called it a two-hour love-in, they mentioned the Russian President’s fanciful history lesson. On the Nord Stream stuff, they said several countries have been publicly blamed for the explosions with varying degrees of evidence. Ukraine has said Russia was responsible, which the Kremlin has denied.
[01:21:27] Cameron: While Moscow has previously blamed the UK without presenting any evidence to support that assertion, either, they don’t mention at all the, uh, us, uh, being involved. Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist at his sources said it was the CIA. They don’t mention that. They don’t mention that the US blamed Ukraine for it either.
[01:21:49] Cameron: Um, just not worth mentioning apparently. Um, there’s, um, I mentioned that, that there’s a Reuters article for the 7th of February. Uh, the Rolling Stone said, um, something about. Uh, we’re talking about the Nord Stream, the Rolling Stone Magazine article said Investigations have yet to determine who was behind the sabotage.
[01:22:14] Cameron: And then they link to a Reuters article from the 7th of February. It says, the White House last year dismissed a blog post by a US investigative journalist alleging Washington was behind explosions as utterly false and complete fiction. I was like, they fucking wrote off Seymour Hersh, a Pulitzer, Prize winning investigative journalist who broke the My Lai story massacre in Vietnam, who broke the Abu Ghraib torture story 20 years ago as a blog post by a US investigative journalist.
[01:22:49] Cameron: Like it makes it sound like it’s some hack conspiracy, like it’s me sitting in my bedroom writing about it. You know, fucking Seymour Hersh. They just write off
[01:23:00] Cameron: like, seriously, this
[01:23:02] Tony: they can ’cause none of the, none of the, none of the outlets in the
[01:23:04] Tony: America, America picked that up. You’d think the first thing that the head of the Washington Post would do is say, oh, who’s journalists? Let’s, let’s go and talk to them. Let’s see what their sources are. Let’s, let’s, you know, try and replicate the work that they did.
[01:23:16] Cameron: all the New York Times where he won a Pulitzer Prize,
[01:23:19] Tony: yeah. Oh no. We’ll just take the press release
[01:23:22] Tony: from Washington and read. I
[01:23:23] Tony: print that.
[01:23:24] Cameron: like I’ve, You know, I read Seymour Hurst’s blog, um, and he’s, you know, been saying for, uh, whatever it’s been now, six months since he wrote that story. You can tell by the lack of coverage that my story is getting.
[01:23:38] Tony: is accurate.
[01:23:39] Cameron: How close to the bone it is, right? Yeah. If it was wrong and they knew it was wrong, they would come out and say that the fact that they are, you know, tackling what’s actually being said in it, um, stands for itself.
[01:23:53] Cameron: They go on, sorry. In the Reuters article to say, the US and German Media have reported that the yacht could have been used by Ukrainian or pro-Ukrainian groups citing leaked intelligence reports and people familiar with official investigations. Kiev has repeatedly denied any involvement. The Washington Post citing leaked information posted online wrote last June that the United States learned of a Ukrainian plan to attack the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline three months before they were damaged.
[01:24:21] Cameron: So of course what happened is when Seymour Hearst came out with his story, the uh, Washington Post slash US government came out with their own
[01:24:30] Cameron: story. Oh, well we heard
[01:24:33] Cameron: that it was probably
[01:24:34] Tony: Our sources say,
[01:24:35] Cameron: did it. Uh.
[01:24:38] Cameron: You know, and it just goes on like, um, the, the amount of
[01:24:44] Cameron: obfuscation. The other thing that I wanted to point out that Putin talked about a lot that didn’t get any coverage in any of the articles that I saw was the role that the failure of the Minsk agreements
[01:24:55] Cameron: played.
[01:24:56] Tony: Yeah, I, I was gonna highlight that?
[01:24:58] Tony: too.
[01:24:58] Cameron: What,
[01:24:58] Cameron: what did you have on that?
[01:25:00] Tony: No, no. Go ahead. I, I’ve gotta find my notes.
[01:25:03] Cameron: Well, for people who, uh, first time listeners, um,
[01:25:08] Cameron: uh, uh, when the whole thing broke out in the Donbass region in 2014, there were
[01:25:12] Cameron: a number of attempts to try and bring about a peace settlement there. They were called the Minsk agreements because the meetings happens in, in Minsk and Belarus. Um, and it looked like they had a, a template for.
[01:25:28] Cameron: Some sort of a settlement in the Donbass region. And again, it just failed. And aspersions were cast around as to who failed and why they failed and who was to blame for not upholding their end of the agreement. A bit like the whole, you know, Palestine Israel thing that’s been going on forever, each side blames the other.
[01:25:47] Cameron: But, um, Putin puts the blame on the failure of the Minsk agreements on Ukraine in the West for not upholding their end of it. And there is, there’s a fa uh, um, a fascinating interview with Angela Merkel, who was one of the sponsors of the agreement when she was the Chancellor of Germany. She was interviewed by a German magazine, desight recently, where she said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to give Ukraine time to defend itself. She said, um. Putin said, it turns out that no one was gonna fulfill all these Minsk agreements, and the point was only to pump up Ukraine with weapons and prepare it for hostilities. So then I got this from, um, Reuters. Uh, I think according to former German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to Rearm Ukraine.
[01:26:48] Cameron: I’ve got the actual interview here from Dezeit. It says this is quoting Merkel, but that requires us to also say what exactly the alternatives were at the time. I thought the initiation of NATO accession. By Ukraine and Georgia, which was discussed in 2008, was wrong. The countries neither had the necessary prerequisites for this, nor had the consequences of such a decision been fully thought through, both with regard to Russia’s actions against Georgia and Ukraine and to NATO and its assistance rules.
[01:27:21] Cameron: And the 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time. The aim was to gain time through a ceasefire in order to later achieve peace between Russia and Ukraine. She also used this time to become stronger. As you can see today, the Ukraine of 2014 15 is not the Ukraine of today. As we saw in the battle for the Bolshev railway town in Donbass at the beginning of 2015, Putin could have easily overrun them back then, and I very much doubt that the NATO countries could have done as much back then as they do now to help Ukraine. So, um, yeah, basically she seems to be confirming Putin’s assertion that the Minsk agreements were really just, uh, an attempt by the West to buy time to, you know, rearm Ukraine and build them up so they could basically, uh, not sign a peace agreement with
[01:28:25] Cameron: Russia,
[01:28:27] Tony: And also I think, um, as Putin alluded to, the Minsk agreement never really held, there was always
[01:28:31] Tony: ongoing breakouts of fighting over that time as well. And, and you know, basically he was saying he couldn’t trust the signatories to the Minsk agreement.
[01:28:41] Cameron: particularly when, you know, one of the key sponsors of it comes out and says, we, we were just using it to buy time in the
[01:28:47] Cameron: first place. It
[01:28:47] Cameron: wasn’t, wasn’t serious.
[01:28:49] Tony: Yeah. And it wasn’t just Merkel, it was the, um, other German, uh, leader before her, I think, I’m just trying to find his name. Uh, Steinem Steinman. Anyway, one of the, one of the, uh, key negotiators and of, of that time might not have been a, sorry, she, he might not have been, uh, Merkel’s equivalent, but certainly someone
[01:29:08] Tony: higher up in Germany also came out and said it wasn’t working.
[01:29:12] Cameron: Yeah.
[01:29:13] Tony: Just trying to find his name now.
[01:29:15] Cameron: And
[01:29:16] Tony: yeah, sorry.
[01:29:17] Cameron: well, and the thing is, I guess my point was gonna be I, This doesn’t get talked about in the Western media. You know, the fact that the Minsk agreements were just a furphy. Secondly, um, again, Putin’s, no dummy. Whatever you think of Putin, if he’s the embodiment of all that is evil or not, he’s no dummy.
[01:29:40] Cameron: And if, and, and if he knows that the peace agreements or the, the, the attempts in good faith to negotiate a settlement in the Donbass region would just deploy, used by the Wests to buy time to so they could, um, and fund and, you know, start building bases and putting weapons on the border of Russia. What do you do?
[01:30:04] Cameron: This is a question I’ve always asked about this. If, if you are Putin, what do you do? What are your options? If you’ve spent 30 years trying to reach a diplomatic negotiation about NATO expansion, that has just been ignored. And, and, and again, this didn’t come up. I’m surprised it didn’t come up. Carlson asked him when the last time he spoke to Biden was, and Putin just sort of like, I, I don’t know.
[01:30:25] Cameron: I don’t remember. I can’t remember everything. I know it was just, it was January, 2022. They discussed, well, Putin tried to discuss. Ukraine joining NATO and Biden told him. It wasn’t open to discussion, it was off the
[01:30:42] Cameron: table.
[01:30:44] Tony: I mean, I know you’ve done a, a long history podcast on Napoleon, but it’s very Napoleonic. This Putin’s saying, I have tried to defend my border, to defend my country, to keep my people safe, but you keep attacking. I’ve signed Minsk one and Minsk II, and for 10 years we’ve had clashes on the border. Still after I withdrew, what more do I have to do?
[01:31:07] Tony: How, how, how can you say I’m the aggressor if I then, you know, cross the border with my tanks trying to
[01:31:14] Tony: protect my border.
[01:31:15] Cameron: That’s the thing that infuriates me with David Markham. I mean, if you talk about why Napoleon invaded Russia in 1812, David will give you all the arguments where he tried. He tried diplomatic measures to avoid war. But he realized, ’cause he was no dummy, what was going on. They were building up forces on his border and war was coming.
[01:31:38] Cameron: So rather than the war happened on his territory, he took it to their territory. And it’s, uh, you know, you you would say that that’s a, a just action. I mean, war is bad, but when you, when your enemy is building up forces on their border and you believe that they have
[01:31:54] Cameron: malicious intent,
[01:31:56] Tony: And you’ve had 10 years of a history of a broken treaty when you’ve tried to resolve it peacefully.
[01:32:01] Cameron: and 30 years in this case of them saying, don’t put NATO, you promised you wouldn’t gonna put NATO bases on our
[01:32:07] Cameron: border. And they’re like, shut the fuck up. We’ll do whatever we want. What do you do? That’s always been my question. Do you just like politically, if he just sits there and lets it happen, he’s
[01:32:19] Cameron: not gonna survive.
[01:32:21] Tony: mm-Hmm,
[01:32:21] Cameron: Let alone, you know, for the, the EE economic and military security of the Russian people, he needs to act. I am not justifying. His invasion. I’m just saying that from his perspective, I felt like he, he really had no option. It was
[01:32:39] Tony: hmm,
[01:32:40] Cameron: We’ve tried everything else. That’s failed. Yeah. A a as Von Klausowitz said, to paraphrase, war is the extension of diplomacy by other means, right?
[01:32:51] Cameron: When diplomacy
[01:33:03] Tony: with the issue of Gershkovich when Carlson thought he’d be able to take a trophy home from Russia and have an American, uh, released and Putin was all over it straight away with all the facts.
[01:33:16] Tony: You know, we are working on this, there’s discussions going on. Uh, there might be a prisoner exchange. We have a mine. This guy, you know, who uh, who was captured by the Americans after he assassinated. Uh, uh, what was the, um,
[01:33:30] Tony: oh, I’ve forgotten the name of the place now that, anyway,
[01:33:33] Cameron: Che, wasn’t it a
[01:33:34] Tony: Chechen. Thank you. The Chechen.
[01:33:35] Tony: The Chechen Rebel. Yeah. But, but that was, to me, that was Putin
[01:33:38] Tony: just completely and just had all the facts at his fingertips. Wasn’t gonna be gotcha’d,
[01:33:44] Cameron: hmm.
[01:33:45] Tony: just laid it all out off the cuff. Brilliant.
[01:33:47] Cameron: And the thing that always gets me about, uh, I don’t know if you, did you ever watch the Oliver Stone interviews with Putin
[01:33:52] Tony: No, I haven’t.
[01:33:53] Cameron: going back a few years, but it was like four hours of interviews. Um, late 2000 and like 17, 18, something like that.
[01:34:02] Cameron: The thing that always gets me, and this is what Oliver Stone said, ’cause Oliver Stone, you know, he did the same thing with Castro. He did the same thing with Chavez in Venezuela. He, like he said, those guys are big personalities and grand pronouncements and obviously also both very intelligent, very successful leaders of their country, depending on how you wanna measure success, I guess.
[01:34:25] Cameron: And Putin is the complete opposite to those guys. The thing that always fascinates me about these Putin interviews is he’s very quietly spoken. He doesn’t rock up wearing a uniform, you know, military badges and everything. Um, you know, Castro always just wore basic greens. You know, you never saw Castro with military, um, adornments, like a Gaddafi.
[01:34:45] Cameron: He was just, you know, military greens. ’cause he said, we’re at war and I’m a soldier, so, you know, I come dressed as a soldier, but Putin is just very quietly
[01:34:55] Cameron: spoken. Very matter of fact. Very look, here are the facts. You know, I’m laying the facts before you reminds me a lot actually of Assad in Syria, if you’ve ever seen interviews with him.
[01:35:08] Cameron: Very, very similar. I I’m not gonna compare the two guys ’cause I don’t think Assad is anywhere near what Putin is in terms of, you know, intellectual power, but very, very simple. Uh, you know, in interviews, very quietly spoken. Very matter of fact. Here’s the facts we see, you know, Putin exudes this quiet intellectual.
[01:35:31] Cameron: Confidence about his position, what his facts are. He’s always very respectful too. When, like, when, when, same with Oliver Stone interviews. When Carson was saying, well, what, what happened in this conversation? What happened in this meeting with Biden or with these leaders or with the, he goes, look, it’s not my place.
[01:35:51] Cameron: It would be, it would be not right for me to talk about things that were said in private. If you wanna know what your president said, go ask your president if you wanna know what Bill Clinton said. Carson, what do you think happened with Bill Clinton? He goes, it wouldn’t be right for me to, you know, speculate.
[01:36:06] Cameron: Go talk to Bill Clinton. Like, he’s always, he’s not advancing conspiracy theories. He is not advancing agendas. He’s just like, it’s not for me to say I, I, I know what I know, but you know, it, it’s the depiction of him in the western media is this bond villain. Doesn’t come across to me in these interviews.
[01:36:27] Cameron: Like does he have people assassinated? I don’t know. Quite possibly. Do American presidents have people assassinated? Yeah, absolutely. All the time. Does he arrest journalists? Sure. As Julian Assange in prison because of the us Sure. I mean, he does what he does and they talk about that like, as a Christian leader, you have to kill people.
[01:36:46] Cameron: Like how do you, how do you justify that? Right.
[01:36:51] Cameron: Um.
[01:36:53] Tony: I think you’ve raised the last point I wanted to talk about, and that was the timing of the interview. And, and I, I, I’ve, I don’t want to sound, uh, like any sort of Putin apologist for a minute. Um, apart from saying that he’s a smart guy and he doesn’t get a fair shot in the media, but what did you make of the Novelli.
[01:37:12] Tony: Uh,
[01:37:12] Tony: death, uh, around the soon after this interview was put to air, it was the interview, the bright shiny object to distract from something going
[01:37:20] Tony: on.
[01:37:23] Cameron: Look, um, well first of all, I’m not convinced that, you know, there’s any evidence that they like deliberately assassinated him. People die all the time. People die in prisons all the time.
[01:37:36] Cameron: Um.
[01:37:37] Tony: Especially in subzero Arctic
[01:37:40] Cameron: Sure,
[01:37:41] Tony: concentration camps.
[01:37:42] Cameron: but reports are that like the day or a couple of days before Navalny died, he appeared in court and he seemed to be healthy and un unlike
[01:37:49] Cameron: Julian Assange, who apparently is too sick to appear in
[01:37:52] Cameron: court. Um, but you know, again, I I, I don’t think Putin would try and time anything like this because I don’t think he really gives a rat’s ass.
[01:38:05] Cameron: I don’t think he cares what the Western media says. I don’t think he cares what western governments say. I think he’s a, like, bit like MBF in Saudi. Arabia having Khashoggi hacked to death with a, an axe in a bathtub. He doesn’t care. Like say what you want. I mean, you think I’m a bad guy, okay. I killed one of my enemies.
[01:38:24] Cameron: Who cares? What are you gonna do? Not buy my oil, like shut the fuck up. I don’t care. I think, I don’t think Putin really cares about bright, shiny objects. I don’t think he cares what the Americans think. I don’t, I do think he wants to. Finish the war in Ukraine. And in order to do that, he needs the US and the EU to stop funneling weapons into Ukraine.
[01:38:46] Cameron: I don’t think he wants a war there. Uh, um, whether or not the Navalny thing was timed with the upcoming Russian election and the interview, look, I, I don’t, I, I don’t think it matters. I don’t, I don’t think Navalny was gonna cause any problems in the Russian election. I’m pretty sure Putin’s got that stitched up by means, fair or foul.
[01:39:08] Cameron: I, you know, he is extremely popular. That’s the other thing the media never talk about here. All of the, all of the surveys that get done by credible western, uh, polling organizations say that he’s incredibly popular in Russia. Maybe because he gets all the pro-Russian propaganda from the media. Or maybe just because, you know, look at Russia before him under Yeltsin.
[01:39:33] Cameron: It was a basket case. Whatever else you wanna say about him. Like Hitler taking over Germany. He’s made the country stronger. He’s made the country in many ways, more economically viable, stronger, better standard of living. Is it perfect? No, but as he talks about in the, in the, the Oliver Stone interviews, it was a basket case when he took over 20 years ago.
[01:39:58] Cameron: It takes a long time to re, you know, not just rebuilding from the Soviet era, but then rebuilding from when the Americans went in, uh, under Yeltsin. Clinton sent his American strategists in and they just sold everything off to the oligarchs. You know, Putin’s been trying to. You know, rebuild the country and it takes time.
[01:40:20] Cameron: It’s a hard, it’s a hard slog, particularly when you’re facing all the other things that they’re facing with Western imperialism and all that kind of stuff in their region. So, no, I, I look, I, I dunno whether or not he was behind Navalny’s death. I, I dunno. Uh, you know, and, and every time anyone dies, Putin apparently personally signed the order.
[01:40:40] Cameron: I don’t know that that necessarily needs to be the case. There’s probably a lot of people between Putin and the guy that, um, you know, commits the act that, that are making de decisions for themselves. I don’t think the president of the United States personally authorizes everybody that every CIA operative Assassinates know.
[01:41:03] Cameron: I don’t know. What
[01:41:03] Cameron: do you think?
[01:41:05] Tony: No, I, I was just raising the question. I, I, if my personal opinion is, I think Nevali just died of, of, I’ll call it natural causes, and he’s in a subarctic, what’s it called? The polar bear or something facility, um, which is basically a death camp. And it just happened to coincide. But I guess that raises the, um, you know, the other issue for me is that it was a Western pile on, again, when Nevali died, that it was caused by Putin.
[01:41:32] Tony: Um, that, you know, see, he may have said some smart things during the interview, but this is what he’s really all
[01:41:37] Tony: about. This is what he does. So it’s, um, and I, and you know, I don’t for a minute think that if Putin didn’t do it, that he’s capable of doing it.
[01:41:45] Cameron: Sure.
[01:41:46] Tony: Yeah,
[01:41:46] Cameron: He’s ex-KGB and he is the leader of a country, like he’s capable of doing anything that he thinks is in the best
[01:41:52] Cameron: interest of his country. I’m sure.
[01:41:54] Tony: Yeah. But also it raises for me the bigger question of, um, of methods of government.
[01:41:58] Tony: And, and that could be behind some of the, you know, the slants of the media is like, you know, do, do, do. I do, I think do, do I think that Western democracy is the best form of government? Well, you just have to look at all the leaders we’ve had in the last 15, 20 years, or is a benevolent dictator
[01:42:16] Tony: a better form of government,
[01:42:18] Tony: um, even though that there are downsides to that if you are in, in opposition.
[01:42:22] Tony: Um, so I think that’s an interesting
[01:42:23] Tony: question to, to talk about as well.
[01:42:26] Cameron: The irony there is that the West loves Lee Kuan. Yew the West couldn’t get enough of Lee Kuan Yew and he was a benevolent dictator, as you say. And their system of government was very much like the Chinese system of government and who, you know, if you believe the books that I’ve been reading basically studied s Singapore’s form of government under Lee, Kuan, Yew and said, yeah, we want, we wanna have that, you know, we wanna be like that.
[01:42:53] Cameron: Let’s, let’s find the best and the brightest and give them positions of political power rather than just somebody who’s able to man manipulate the electorate to vote for them. That doesn’t make any sense.
[01:43:04] Cameron: Let’s find the best and the brightest.
[01:43:05] Tony: Yeah, well the best of the brightest do run power in the West. It’s just that they do it to line their pockets. It’s
[01:43:11] Tony: a little bit different.
[01:43:12] Cameron: You think Trump is
[01:43:13] Cameron: the best and the brightest
[01:43:15] Tony: No, I think Trump’s the mouthpiece. He’s the Ronald. Reagan.
[01:43:18] Cameron: Oh yeah. Right. Yeah.
[01:43:19] Tony: The best of the brightest are on Wall
[01:43:21] Cameron: Steve Bannon. Oh, wall Street. Okay.
[01:43:24] Cameron: All right. Well, that’s all I got. TK. Thanks for joining me. That was a good
[01:43:27] Cameron: chat.
[01:43:28] Tony: discussion. Yeah, thank you,
[01:43:30] Cameron: than we normally get to talk about these things at
[01:43:32] Cameron: the end of QAV.
[01:43:34] Tony: It is. Yeah. This could be the first of our after hours
[01:43:37] Cameron: Could be.
[01:43:38] Tony: podcast.
[01:43:39] Cameron: All right. Thank
[01:43:40] Cameron: you. TK. Cheers.
[01:43:42] Tony: Bye.

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This episode we’re looking at South Africa’s case against Israel in the World Court, accusing them of committing genocide in Gaza, the reasons for the cross-border tensions between Pakistan and Iran in Baluchistan, and why the Houthi are attacking ships in the Red Sea.

Transcript

BSF 122

[00:00:00] Cameron:

[00:00:13] Cameron: Welcome to the Bullshit Filter episode 122. Feel sorry for all the people who miss out on our pre show banter.

[00:00:27] Ray: That’s the best part.

[00:00:29] Cameron: is the

[00:00:29] Ray: just, we go at each other. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck me, fuck you, fuck you. And then we, then we’re nice to each other.

[00:00:37] Cameron: Episode 122. Before we get into today’s stories, I want to give a shout out to my mate, Chris Saad. I give a plug for a product that he soft launched to me a couple of months ago. It’s called Wingman, um, something that you could have used, uh, throughout your life. Um, and you are my Wingman, that’s how I think about it.

[00:00:57] Cameron: This is, this is replacing you in a way. It’s, you can, you can look it up at getwingman. ai and it’s, um, it’s a Chrome plugin.

[00:01:07] Ray: Mmhmm.

[00:01:09] Cameron: And it’s great, and I’ve participated a little bit in the thinking of the later stages of it, but if you go to any news story on a news website, BBC, New York Times, ABC, whatever it is, it’ll pop up a sidebar that uses GPT to break down the story. First of all, it’ll give you an executive summary of the story, but then below that it will call out the biases shown in the reporting of the story, the language that is used that may be, um, giving you a particular, uh, intended flavor or direction or whatever.

[00:01:48] Cameron: It also gives you the historical context of the story. So if you’re reading something about Israel Gaza, it’ll give you a background on the historical context. Then, and this was my suggestion, one of my suggestions, anyway, below that it’ll give you a mini bio on anyone who’s mentioned in the story. Just one line, who they are, what their, what their background is.

[00:02:07] Cameron: with links, I think, to their Wikipedia profile. So you can read up more about who they are. And then down the bottom, it tells you, um, you know, what you can do to learn more about the topic and, uh, you know, sort of guide you through. So it’s sort of is, as I said to him, this is, you know, a great tool. Like, uh, what we try and do on this show is think about the big issues

[00:02:27] Ray: hmm.

[00:02:28] Cameron: the world today.

[00:02:28] Cameron: And we try and break them down and think about them from angles that aren’t necessarily the angles that we’re being given by the mainstream media. Uh, or our governments. And this tool helps you do that. So check it out, getwingman. ai. Uh, I’ve been using it quite a lot to prepare for shows like this. Like, it’s just a quick, I’ll read a news story and I’ll go, okay, what’s the lay of the land here?

[00:02:51] Cameron: And it’ll It’ll give me a, uh, it’s another tool like ChatGPT or like Wikipedia that can enable you to get a bit of a headstart on understanding more of the context of a story and set you off in other directions of, uh, reading or research that you may want to do. I should just get it to recommend listening to our show too.

[00:03:12] Cameron: Every time, if you want to know more about this, listen to Cam and Ray.

[00:03:16] Ray: Yeah, for a flat fee, um, which is fine, he should make the tagline, uh, or should I just have it? Um, A Lazy Podcaster’s

[00:03:24] Cameron: Oh shit, I just had it. Oh, right. Oh shit, I just had

[00:03:29] Ray: that. Oh, no, if, if,

[00:03:31] Cameron: I had something for that. Hmm.

[00:03:34] Ray: if going down rabbit holes is your thing. Then Wingman is for you. Something like that. You know, work, work on

[00:03:40] Cameron: been, you’ve been in a few rabbit holes in your time. That’s why you live out in the country.

[00:03:45] Ray: I can’t, I can’t.

[00:03:49] Cameron: South Africa, right?

[00:03:50] Ray: Yes, go ahead, please. Thank God.

[00:03:53] Cameron: I’ve got a, I’m on a timeline here, like David Markham last month. I, I gotta be somewhere more important than this, which is Kung Fu training. It’s a public holiday here in Australia. It’s Australia Day today. Let’s not get into that, but um Our Kung Fu school is closed so a few of us students have decided we’re going to do our own training.

[00:04:11] Cameron: Everyone else is getting pissed and having barbecues. Uh, we’re gonna do Kung Fu training. Uh, South Africa recently brought a case of genocide against Israel, Ray.

[00:04:22] Ray: Yes.

[00:04:23] Cameron: Um, the International Court of Justice, the ICJ, aka the World Court, is where they brought it. It’s the only international court that adjudicates general disputes between nations, gives advisory options.

[00:04:41] Cameron: Uh, sorry, Advisory Opinions on International Legal Issues, one of the six organs, sexy, sexy word organs, it’s one of the six organs of the United Nations, located in The Hague,

[00:04:54] Ray: Yes.

[00:04:55] Cameron: Now, uh, a lot of people are upset. By this, uh, claim of genocide by Israel, a lot of people agree, on the other hand.

[00:05:03] Cameron: Israel, obviously, is not happy, uh, about it, but the U. S. refuses to call it genocide, and, uh, obviously that’s, uh, gonna be a big issue, trying to get the U. S. to agree that what Israel is doing is genocide. Here’s what South Africa argued. They argued that Israeli officials have voiced genocidal intent. So to prove genocide, you have to prove that it’s intentional, and they, quoting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s reference to ancient Israel’s destruction of Amalek.

[00:05:39] Cameron: Now, I don’t know if you saw this story, I don’t know how much coverage. It’s getting in the, um, mainstream media, I think there’s been a little bit, but, um, you know, there’s, uh, there’s a speech that he gave, uh, late October last year, where he says, um,

[00:06:01] Ray: Right.

[00:06:02] Cameron: In recent days, I have met with our soldiers at their bases at the assembly points in the north and in the south.

[00:06:07] Cameron: We have an amazing army, with wonderful and heroic soldiers. Jews and non Jews, secular and religious, left and right. They are all imbued with a fighting spirit. Spirit, the likes of which I have never seen, including a willingness to fight with strength and force against an enemy whose brutality and criminality are unparalleled.

[00:06:25] Cameron: They are longing to recompense the murderers for the horrific acts they perpetrated on our children, our women, our parents, and our friends. They are committed to eradicating this evil from the world for our existence and, I add, for the good of all humanity. The entire people and the leadership of the people embrace them and believe in them.

[00:06:44] Cameron: Remember what Amalek did to you, Deuteronomy 25, 17. We remember. And we fight. Now,

[00:06:52] Ray: Yeah.

[00:06:53] Cameron: knows more about, uh, the Old Testament than you, Ray. Uh, tell people about Amalek.

[00:07:00] Ray: Amalek did not play. That’s all I know. But he did not play. No. Please, please tell me about him.

[00:07:08] Cameron: Amalek, uh, it was a, it was a, it was a tribe, wasn’t a guy. Uh, the Amaleks were, uh, a tribe in the Old Testament, enemies of Israel. They, uh, basically had a war. They sort of, according to the Old Testament version of events, which of course, as everyone knows is really just political propaganda, the Amalekites harassed the Hebrews during their exodus from Egypt and attacked them near Mount Sinai, where they were defeated by Joshua and, uh, pretty much were wiped out.

[00:07:45] Cameron: So. If you look at, um, what the, uh, Old Testament says about the Amaleks, God then commands Saul to destroy the Amalekites by killing man, woman, infant, and suckling.

[00:08:05] Ray: Oh.

[00:08:06] Cameron: Uh, basically said, go in and wipe them all out.

[00:08:10] Cameron: Kill them all, even the

[00:08:11] Ray: All of them.

[00:08:12] Cameron: Yeah, all of them. It’s funny, Fox is just watching those films again. He loves them. Kids love them.

[00:08:19] Ray: Oh, yeah. Oh,

[00:08:20] Cameron: that aren’t like, oh, we were watching, uh, he was watching Bear Grylls last night and, and he had Natalie Portman on, he was taking her out hiking in Utah and they were talking about the Star Wars films and she was like, yeah, look, she was 16, I think, when she made the first one and she was like, yeah, the thing was they came out and everyone despised them, they were hated, now, 20 odd years later, everyone loves them, says, yeah, actually, they’re the good ones.

[00:08:44] Cameron: Not me, I still think they suck. But anyway, uh, so yes, destroy all of them. And so Benjamin Netanyahu referencing Amalek seems to be referencing this idea of, yeah, wiping them all out, man, women, children, and beast. Don’t leave out the beasts.

[00:09:04] Ray: No, they’re the

[00:09:05] Cameron: Um, South Africa is also claiming that Israeli soldiers have acted on that intent.

[00:09:12] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:09:12] Cameron: Lawyers referenced videos of soldiers, quote, joyfully detonating entire apartment blocks.

[00:09:20] Ray: yes.

[00:09:20] Cameron: they claim that Israeli actions have been genocidal in nature, causing destruction, displacement, and death aimed at the destruction of Palestinian life. I think the current numbers are there’s like 25, 000, over 25, 000 People reported killed.

[00:09:36] Cameron: This is according to the UN Human Rights Commission. Nearly 25, 000 people reported killed according to the Gaza Ministry of Health. 70 percent of them women and children. Another 61, 500 at least have been injured. Several thousands more are under the rubble. Many presumed dead. And that’s That, uh, um, story is from a week ago, so it’s probably worse than that.

[00:10:02] Cameron: Now, not surprising, your, uh, United States Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, um, is a Jew who, uh, is vehemently against this being called genocide. When he arrived in Jerusalem to show support, uh, he said, I come before you as a Jew. Not as the American Secretary of State, um, but as a

[00:10:29] Ray: for neutral. Right. Yeah.

[00:10:32] Cameron: Biden declared himself a Zionist again.

[00:10:36] Ray: right.

[00:10:36] Cameron: He said, uh, I’m a Zionist. Interestingly, he also mentioned recently that Benjamin Net Netanyahu has a photo from when he and Biden met in 1973

[00:10:51] Ray: Right.

[00:10:52] Cameron: Biden had scrawled on the photo. Bebe, I love, but don’t agree with a damn thing you have to say.

[00:11:00] Ray: Damn.

[00:11:01] Cameron: It’s about the same today, Biden announced to the audience.

[00:11:05] Ray: Yes.

[00:11:06] Cameron: As I said after the 7th of October attack, my commitment to the safety of the Jewish people and the security of Israel, its right to exist as an independent Jewish state is unshakeable.

[00:11:17] Cameron: You don’t have to be a Jew to be a Zionist. I am a Zionist. Were there no Israel, there would not be a Jew in the world who was safe. Now, That’s a little bit of a paraphrase or re re re framing of what he said in the 80s. We’re also going to discuss the Ironclad Commitment initiative I’ll say. So I’m going to play this clip here.

[00:11:37] Cameron: Can you, uh, can you hear that, Ray?

[00:11:40] Ray: I heard something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:42] Cameron: This is a clip, uh, from Biden. First of all, there’s a recent clip of him talking. This is from October last year, him talking about Israel. And then it will cut to a clip of him in the early 80s talking about Israel. So listen to this. Say this 5, 000 times in my career, the Ironclad Commitment to the United States.

[00:11:59] Cameron: As to Israel, based on our principles, our ideas, our values, they’re the same values. And, uh, I, uh, I’ve often said, Mr. President, it’s very, uh, words. If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one. Um, and I don’t It is the best 3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region.

[00:12:31] Cameron: See?

[00:12:32] Ray: Interesting.

[00:12:33] Cameron: Yeah, that’s him from the early 80s. There’s another bit here. The United States would have to go out and invent an Israel. But the framing of it, you can see, has sort of changed since he’s become president. Back then it was to protect our interests in the region. Not So the Jews can be safe, but to protect our interests in the region.

[00:12:58] Cameron: And I think that’s the important thing that we all need to remember about Israel. I think, you know, there’s, I had this conversation with my mom when she was here. Over Christmas we were talking about it. She was like, I don’t understand why the U. S. supports Israel so much. Is it because of the, the, the Jews are so powerful in America?

[00:13:15] Cameron: And I was like, well, yeah, that’s actually, there’s some merit to that. And we’ll get into that in a second. But, um, there, there is, I think the, the main reason, the principal reason why the U. S. has supported Israel since the fifties is because they realized they need an ironclad ally In that part of the world, because that’s the part of the world where most of the oil comes from, particularly back then.

[00:13:46] Cameron: This is before we had shale oil as an option. Uh, most of the oil comes from there. All of the countries that contain the oil, predominantly Muslim countries, they needed a non Muslim country that relied on the United States for its very existence

[00:14:04] Ray: Yes.

[00:14:05] Cameron: to be fully armed. able to intervene on America’s behalf in any, uh, countries in the region where they needed intervention.

[00:14:16] Cameron: That would be reliable as an ally. You know, Saddam Hussein was an ally for a while and then he wasn’t. Iran was an ally for decades and then it wasn’t. Saudi Arabia has been an ally for a long time, but their relationship with them is sort of touch and go. You know, the OPEC crisis in the early seventies obviously was an instance where, uh, you know, they weren’t exactly a reliable partner when it came to the pricing of oil.

[00:14:42] Cameron: And we’ve, we’ve talked about that on the show before and Kissinger went over and did the deal, um, to guarantee them again, sort of ironclad support militarily, funding, political cover in return for giving them a good price on, on oil, not fucking with them.

[00:15:02] Ray: I completely agree with what you’re saying. I would like to think, I would like to think that if Biden and Netanyahu were alone and no one would ever know this, I would just imagine Biden going, look, I know you got to defend yourself, but Dude, you’re killing me here. You’re, you are committing something very much like genocide, if it’s not genocide, and I’ve got to defend you for the very reasons that you just said, Cam, but I’ve just got to imagine you would be like, could you just knock it off?

[00:15:28] Ray: Can you turn it down a little bit? Um, but that’s where they’re at. So, in order to get ready for tonight, I’ve been going through, you know, accusations, counter accusations, watching drone footage or whatever. Did not enjoy that at all. Thank you very much. But it reminded me of something. Was it the 1970s? I can’t remember 1970s, 1980s when the Supreme, I think it was a Supreme Court judge.

[00:15:50] Ray: Uh, U. S. uh, Supreme Court Judge says something like, I don’t, I can’t define pornography, but I know it when I see it. That’s, for me, kind of like genocide. Yeah, you can get into all the technicalities, and who did what, and who started that, and why are you doing this, and whatever, but at the end of the day, I mean, literally, they can’t get water, they can’t get medicine, literally, the, um, the, uh, the people that are bringing things are being targeted.

[00:16:14] Ray: And like you said, there’s, there’s footage of, uh, Israeli soldiers, you know, laughing or whatever as they’re shooting up. And so whatever, forget definitions for a second, trust your eyes. This is genocide. Women, mostly women and children are dying. This is absolutely horrible. But I think Israelis only got this, they’re a one trick pony.

[00:16:33] Ray: This is all they’ve got. They can’t use their nuclear weapons, because then everybody would go fucking insane, and plus it’s in their own country. So they’re just gonna beat these people down, and, and I don’t think they even have an endgame. I don’t even, this is literally a knee jerk reaction, and they have no other options, because this is all they’ve ever done.

[00:16:50] Ray: Maybe they need to, I have no idea, but they’re a one trick pony. What do you think,

[00:16:57] Cameron: Yeah, I think you’re right. Yeah, I think you’re right. And I think, like, Netanyahu has, uh, have I ever played that clip on this show where he talked about how he knows how to control the U. S.?

[00:17:11] Ray: I’m not sure.

[00:17:13] Cameron: Uh, let me just find that.

[00:17:15] Ray: if you have, it’s been a while, since I don’t remember.

[00:17:19] Cameron: I can’t see it in my notes. I’m just Let’s see if I can dig it up. There is, uh, this was doing the rounds, uh, a few months ago. It was, uh, a conversation recorded years ago, like, I think 20 years ago, maybe, where he was sitting with some people, um, just basically saying, Oh, here we go. Um, I think I found it here.

[00:17:52] Cameron: OK, he’s speaking in Hebrew, so I will, I’ll try, I’ll just read the transcription here.

[00:18:00] Ray: Yeah.

[00:18:03] Cameron: Um, I’ll post a link to it in the notes. If you want to look it up on YouTube, it’s called What Does Netanyahu Really Think of the USA? Here’s what he says, especially today with America. I know what America is. America is a thing you can easily move. Move in the right direction. Um, so That’s basically what he said, right?

[00:18:22] Cameron: There’s a lot of clips in this thing of him talking about moving the US, but he knows how to manipulate the US. Um, oh, here’s another clip from the same thing. He says, Remember Oslo? I stopped the Oslo Accords. So, this is a guy who is, you know, very canny, very clever, in a Trumpian way. He knows how to tap into the American psyche.

[00:18:48] Cameron: Um, But it’s not just him, of course. There’s, um, there’s a lot of people in the Israel lobby in the US. There’s a great book I read years ago by John Mearsheimer, um, called The Israel Lobby. And if you want to know more about how the Israel lobby works in the US, I recommend that book. But, um, a lot of people in America, uh, are against what Israel is doing.

[00:19:15] Cameron: Um, there’s been some surveys done recently that indicate that younger Americans Uh, uh, uh, quite against it. About half of the 18 to 29 demographics say that Israel is committing genocide,

[00:19:31] Ray: Right. Ah

[00:19:35] Cameron: for registered Democrats. 49 percent of registered Democrats agree with the genocide characterization.

[00:19:43] Cameron: Um, the Republicans are far more supportive of what Israel is doing. 57 percent of Republicans said there is no genocide. Only 18 percent of Republicans agree with it, which is interesting. Let’s see how this plays out in your upcoming. Presidential election this year, which we’ll talk about a little bit later on, but Biden’s losing, you know, Biden, by the way, most unpopular president in recorded history at this point in his first term,

[00:20:13] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:20:14] Cameron: to the polls.

[00:20:15] Cameron: And, you know, he is, actively supporting this, uh, genocide by Israel and half of his regis half of his own party, uh, believe their president is supporting Israel committing genocide. So it’s got and Republicans are for it. So the Republicans are like, you beauty Joe Biden. Of course they probably think Trump would do the same and maybe more in terms of support.

[00:20:46] Cameron: We don’t know.

[00:20:48] Ray: Yeah. Can I say something real quick? Let me just reference something that you said at the very beginning when you talked about South Africa filing that case. Supposedly the ICJ is going to make their announcement tomorrow. And you’re right, they’re accusing them of genocide violations under the Genocide Convention.

[00:21:07] Ray: And, um, and of course Israel says that’s false. It’s grossly distorted. You’re, you’re taking it all out of context. Yada, yada, yada. Watch the videos for yourself or the drone footage for yourself. But then some, and I just love this, some South African, it was either a politician or it was a media personality.

[00:21:24] Ray: I can’t remember. They wrote something like, um, let me see if I can find it here. Um, oh, it’s a, he wrote, remember when we broke ties with you, Israel, and you called us subhuman. So you called us subhuman because we wouldn’t do business with you because we find that you’re subhuman yourself. You call us subhuman, you’re acting subhuman now, and now hopefully the chickens will come home to roost.

[00:21:49] Ray: But as you know, Cam, and you’re probably going to say this in a minute, the court, the ICJ, does not have the ability to enforce its decisions. So it can scream from the rooftop all it wants, but one, it can’t enforce it, and two, as long as America in general is backing Israel, Nothing is going to happen.

[00:22:08] Cameron: Yeah, you’re right. I mean, it’s a, one of the sexy organs of the United Nations. And we know that the only body in the United Nations that can do anything is the Security Council. US has a veto on the Security Council. So it’s not going to agree to anything happening, but. You know, what I think this does, though, South Africa, by the way, Jews accusing some people of being subhuman. Yeah,

[00:22:36] Ray: on the nose. Two on the nose. Yeah. Do you really want to go there? Yeah.

[00:22:42] Cameron: it’s the same thing with the genocide thing, really? You know, you want to even get close to the line of being accused of committing genocide after what your history, uh,

[00:22:52] Ray: Did you learn anything? Yeah.

[00:22:54] Cameron: Anyway, um, and also like, I know I said this on the last time we talked about Israel, but you know, the Americans bang on and the Israeli government bangs on about their right to defend themselves and their right to exist,

[00:23:07] Ray: Right.

[00:23:08] Cameron: one talks about the Palestinians right to defend themselves or their right to exist,

[00:23:13] Ray: You have, you have to go through a, no, actually it doesn’t. I’m glad you brought that up. You have to go through a holocaust first and then the survivors of that have the right to life. No one else could just fuck right off. Uh, I don’t, I don’t want to jump too far ahead, but today there was actually some news, uh, probably when you were first getting up, um, And in brushing your teeth or whatever, there was talk, there was very serious talk on both sides of coming up with a ceasefire long enough to exchange prisoners or for Hamas to release the rest of, of the detainees, prisoners, whatever term I should be using, um, that fell apart a couple of hours later, um, but there was a look, it looks like they were going to try to try very hard for both sides to calm the fuck down, but then Hamas said, We will only agree to this if all Israeli troops leave Gaza.

[00:24:06] Ray: And of course, Benjamin Netanyahu said, Fuck that and fuck you. So that’s, so nothing’s gonna change and these people are still suffering some of the worst tragedies that humans possibly can.

[00:24:19] Cameron: And I like the, the duality here where the US refuses to call this genocide, even though there’s 25, more than 25, 000 people killed in a couple of months, uh, 70 percent women and children, but we’re happy to call China’s treatment of the Uyghur people genocide.

[00:24:40] Ray: Yes.

[00:24:41] Cameron: Uh, where the total number of dead people was, well, none, really, that we, or, that we have evidence for.

[00:24:49] Cameron: Uh, maybe some people died in an internment camp, that was the best they could come up with. But they were like, oh, well, no, it’s cultural genocide. But as long as we can throw around the G word, that’s fine. But, when it actually comes to 25, 000 people being killed, Uh, well we can’t call that genocide. No, we won’t, we, that’s, that’s just ridiculous.

[00:25:14] Cameron: You can’t even bring up the word. Uh, but, you know, fine if it’s China when there’s not people dead. By the way, here’s what the head of the Human, United Nations Human Rights Council said.

[00:25:27] Ray: right,

[00:25:29] Cameron: Um, well, here’s an article about him, anyway. In a related development, the UN’s top human rights official has defended criticism of the invasion of Gaza, saying that it is not anti Semitic to call out gross violations of international Humanitarian Law, writing in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday, Volker Turk, he’s an Austrian by the way, once again strongly condemned the shocking cruelty of the attack launched from Gaza by Hamas and other armed groups on October 7th.

[00:25:59] Cameron: The massacres that ensued created intense and continuing trauma across Israel, the UN Rights Chief continued, before insisting that the country’s campaign of overwhelming force has been tainted by grave breaches of international law. Rocket fire from Gaza into Israel is also continued, Mr. Turk noted, before expressing regret that some Israeli officials had tried to discredit his officers concerns by claiming that they constitute blood libel.

[00:26:27] Cameron: It is not a blood libel to deplore the failure to hold to account Israeli soldiers and armed settlers who have killed hundreds of Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7th, or the prolongation of a war whose conduct has raised grave international humanitarian and human rights Law Concerns, the UN Rights Chief Stressed.

[00:26:49] Cameron: So, it’s not just South Africa that has serious issues about the way that Israel is conducting this. The head of the Human Rights Commission obviously has issues as well. So, as you said, it’s going to the ICJ. Uh, they’re gonna have a temporary ruling, not on the genocide question this week, but on possible emergency measures requested by South Africa to restrain milit uh, Israel’s actions.

[00:27:13] Cameron: But, funny thing about the ICJ.

[00:27:16] Ray: Right.

[00:27:16] Cameron: The current president of the ICJ is an American woman, Joan Donahue.

[00:27:22] Ray: Mm

[00:27:23] Cameron: In the 1980s, Donahue acted as an attorney advisor for the US in the International Court of Justice, in the case of Nicaragua versus the United States.

[00:27:34] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:27:35] Cameron: So for the kids out there who weren’t around during the eighties.

[00:27:41] Ray: Right.

[00:27:42] Cameron: During the era of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, there was a, uh, Marxist government in Nicaragua. There were, uh, there was a far right, uh, military, paramilitary operation called the Contras that were trying to fight against the Marxist government. And they were really extreme, these guys, like, you know.

[00:28:06] Cameron: Killing priests and women and children and all sorts of

[00:28:10] Ray: Oh, yeah.

[00:28:11] Cameron: Supported by the United States. Fully supported, in secret, by the United States. With the knowledge, we believe, of George Bush Senior and Ronald Reagan, although they avoided any legal repercussions for that, but When this was taken to the ICJ in 1986, um, where, you know, Nicaragua was accusing the United States of supporting the Contras.

[00:28:38] Cameron: The case was decided in favor of Nicaragua and against the United States. Awarding of reparations to Nicaragua. The court had 15 final decisions upon which it voted. The court found in its verdict that the United States was, quote, in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another state.

[00:28:58] Cameron: Not to intervene in its affairs, not to violate its sovereignty, not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce and, which is interesting, we’ll get to that later, and in breach of its obligations under Article 14 of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the parties signed at Managua. On the 21st of January, 1956, I’ve been to Managua, not for very long, flew into Managua, then jumped on a bus and went out into the country of Nicaragua to go to a cigar, a cigar factory, farm, turned, what was that, 2011, I think, somewhere around that I went, it was fantastic.

[00:29:35] Cameron: In Statement 9, the court stated that while the US encouraged human rights violations by the Contras, by the manual entitled Psychological Operations and Guerrilla Warfare, this did not make such acts attributable to the US. Here’s the kicker. The United States refused to participate in the proceedings, arguing that the ICJ lacked jurisdiction to hear the case.

[00:29:56] Cameron: The World Court has no jurisdiction.

[00:30:01] Ray: Sorry.

[00:30:04] Cameron: Over things that happen in the world. Were we not clear on that?

[00:30:07] Ray: no, no.

[00:30:08] Cameron: S. also blocked enforcement of the judgment by the United Nations Security Council and thereby prevented Nicaragua from obtaining any compensation.

[00:30:18] Ray: Damn,

[00:30:18] Cameron: And the current president of the ICJ was on the American side of fighting that in the ICJ in the 80s.

[00:30:30] Ray: I see what you’re doing, but I think the word, the two words, actually one word for both situations, coincidence. It’s just one of those quirky things where it just happened to work out really well for us and the people that like us and back us are now in charge. You’re reading way I’m embarrassed for you.

[00:30:49] Ray: You’re reading way too much into it. You would think that when America was found guilty, we’d be like, okay, fuck it, pay him, because all we got to do is print some more fucking money. Right? Just pay him. We wouldn’t even do that. God, I love America. Proud to be an

[00:31:05] Cameron: Bush Senior say? Like, I will never apologize for America.

[00:31:09] Ray: That’s right, especially when we fuck up. Oh, can I just say something real quick? I know we’ve only got so much time, but when we were doing the, uh, creation of Israel series, you made some kind of, uh, I think example or metaphor. You said something like, Ray, it’s like me going into your house, going into the bathroom, barricading myself into the bathroom and saying, from now on, this is mine.

[00:31:30] Ray: You can’t do shit about it. And slowly, slowly, slowly, you take, you take more over more of my house. And they go, what are you complaining about? So for me, this is kind of like. If someone was to come in now and kill my entire family, just wipe everybody out, and I go in crazy, and I start going around killing people, and they try to arrest me, and I’m like, you can’t arrest me, you’ve seen what I’ve been through, right?

[00:31:49] Ray: You can’t touch me. I’ve been through something so horrible, it should excuse anything that I do for the rest of my life. How dare you, sir? You know, metaphor. Anyway, I’m

[00:32:02] Cameron: Mmhmmm moving right along ’cause I’ve only got 22 minutes left. Pakistan versus Iran.

[00:32:07] Ray: Yes!

[00:32:08] Cameron: heard there have been some tensions recently between Pakistan and Iran. Iran conducted a missile and drone attack on Western Pakistan saying that it was aiming them at the militant group. Jes al al.

[00:32:23] Ray: right?

[00:32:24] Cameron: Hard for me to say that. Uh, two children. We’re killed in the attack. This is in the Balochistan region of Pakistan. And, um, I’ll explain what that is in a second. Pakistan recalled its ambassador, blocked the Iranian envoy, and then, uh, turned around and launched attacks almost immediately on the same sort of region, the Balochistan region of Iran.

[00:32:48] Cameron: Um, saying, oh, well, we’re also attacking, um, terrorist

[00:32:52] Ray: Oh, the same fucking group. The same fucking group. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:32:58] Cameron: Um, so it’s, there’s this interesting thing going on. Now, Iran and Pakistan have had various stages of their relationship since Pakistan was created in the late 40s, but they’ve never really attacked each other’s territories before.

[00:33:13] Cameron: So this is a kind of a big deal.

[00:33:16] Ray: Yes.

[00:33:17] Cameron: Now, Iran’s justification for their attacks had something to do with this bombing in a place called Kerman in Iran, uh, on the 11th of January. There was a memorial being held for the former top commander of the Quds, uh, force in Iran, uh, Qasem Soleimani, who was killed by Donald Trump in a drone strike, um, back in 2020.

[00:33:42] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:33:43] Cameron: He was in Iraq at the time. We did a whole fuckin story on that back in 2020, I seem to recall.

[00:33:49] Ray: Yeah.

[00:33:50] Cameron: So, Balochistan, I didn’t know much about Balochistan. Do you know much about Balochistan, Ray?

[00:33:55] Ray: You know, kind of think you’re making it up, but go ahead. No,

[00:33:59] Cameron: Uh, it’s not a country, it’s a region, it’s like, um Uh, based on where a bunch of regional people live, sort of that sits on the top of Pakistan, Iran, and a small part of Afghanistan, after the Bloc people that have lived there, you know, since fucking God was a boy. And, you know, in classic sense, classic, you know, Winston Churchillian logic, when he invented all of these countries by just drawing lines on a piece of paper, when he was half, half cut.

[00:34:32] Cameron: Um, He, uh, like, oh, fuck these people. Who cares about these people? We’ll just put them part here and part over there and part over there. Fuck them. Who cares?

[00:34:42] Ray: They all look the same to me. So how, how bad could it be?

[00:34:47] Cameron: gives a fuck what they think? The Baloch people are an Iranian ethnic group, and the largest part of the Pakistan’s four provinces is their part of Balochistan.

[00:35:01] Cameron: It’s the least populated, but the largest geographical area. And, you know, like, these people have been fucked over going back to, you know, like, the Persians, the Arabs, the British, Alexander the Great, probably, like,

[00:35:16] Ray: Probably

[00:35:16] Cameron: you know, we know when he went through there, there’s always been this region of conflict and unrest because of its strategic importance, but also, you More recently in the last hundred, hundred and fifty years because of its natural resources.

[00:35:29] Cameron: There’s a lot of gas, oil, coal, gold, copper in this region. So none of these countries that ended up with it because Churchill drew a line in the sand want to let it go or want to give these people independence. These people want independence and I’ll explain why. So there’s, like the, like the Uyghur people that I mentioned earlier, these people don’t really feel like they belong in this country.

[00:35:51] Ray: Yeah,

[00:35:52] Cameron: And they, you know, they know that there is, natural resources on their land, they’re not getting a lot of that money, they want that money because they can provide for their people. So there’s been a strong separatist movement in Balochistan for a long time. Now, um, the Baloch people, you know, didn’t get any choice in when, when the lines were drawn around their country and, you know, they’re like, well this is Pakistan now, all the Muslims in India, fuck you, you’re going to move up north.

[00:36:18] Cameron: You now got a, you know, I just watched a great Bollywood film, Patan, which, uh, covered a little bit of that. Was it Patan? I think it was Patan. Yeah.

[00:36:27] Ray: Right?

[00:36:28] Cameron: They’re like, yeah, fuck you. Or you just,

[00:36:30] Ray: Pick up and

[00:36:31] Cameron: no, it was, it was an episode of Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor Who that starts with the separation of Pakistan and people being caught on dividing lines.

[00:36:40] Cameron: Anyway,

[00:36:41] Ray: yeah. Sounds familiar.

[00:36:42] Cameron: but there was also Patan, which was about Pakistan and India fighting over Bangladesh. Anyway, another story. Um. They feel like they’ve been economically exploited, the Baloch people, neglected politically by the Pakistani government. There have been several uprisings in there during the 20th century, and each time, obviously, the Pakistani military go in and shut it down fairly brutally.

[00:37:06] Cameron: The section of Balochistan that’s in Iran has, uh, similar but separate issues. Um, the Baloch people are Sunni Islam. Those are the majority in Pakistan, but in Iran, obviously, they’re mostly Twelver Shia Islam, as we’ve covered on other episodes before. And the Sunni bloc people feel like, again, they’re sort of discriminated against, they’re marginalized, uh, there’s a level of cultural suppression.

[00:37:35] Cameron: Because yes, we all believe in the same God, and yes, we believe in the same prophet, uh, Piba, but you worship him wrong.

[00:37:43] Ray: that’s right. So we have to kill you or at least not think of you as an equal. Yeah. And can I just add real quick, just to make this a whole, whole situation that you were just talking about a lot more fun. Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Iran is working on them. So, but, but again, this is just more fighting in the region.

[00:38:00] Ray: We’re sitting, okay, this is an individual fight. The thing with the, uh, ht that’s a supposedly an individual fight, but then we’ve got what’s going on in, uh, in Israel. And so, so in some ways these. Battles are connected in some ways or not, but one day, I guess the big fear is, it just becomes a regional conflict.

[00:38:17] Ray: Everybody just, like World War I, everybody just picks sides and you just fucking go at it. And who’s gonna suffer the most? The people in the Middle East who had no control over this whatsoever.

[00:38:27] Cameron: Yeah. And they’ve been suffering through these sorts of

[00:38:29] Ray: For, exactly.

[00:38:31] Cameron: Since Alexander the Great, right? Um Now, the Afghan part of Balochistan is a lot smaller than the Pakistan and the Iranian bits, but,

[00:38:40] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:38:41] Cameron: less turbulent, but also, you know, overshadowed mostly by all the other shit that Afghanistan has been going through forever as well.

[00:38:50] Cameron: Now, the other reason why Balochistan is strategically important is where it sits. It sits near key maritime choke points. If you bring up a map for me, Ray,

[00:39:02] Ray: Right.

[00:39:02] Cameron: can you, can you, can you do that for me,

[00:39:05] Ray: I can whip this out. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Cameron: If you look at where Balochistan is on a map, um, you’ll see that it’s uh, a really sort of important part of the Gulf of Oman, I guess.

[00:39:25] Cameron: It’s,

[00:39:26] Ray: Right.

[00:39:27] Cameron: got, you got it open in front of you?

[00:39:28] Ray: Got it. Yep. Yep.

[00:39:30] Cameron: So it sits right near, you know, the, where if you come through the Gulf of Oman, you go around Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, you know, past Dubai. And then it sits on the coastline here and it’s, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of. Shipping traffic that goes through there.

[00:39:49] Cameron: It’s, um, as we’ll get to when we get to the Houthi story, if we have time. Um, and it also plays a key role in the China Pakistan Economic Corridor, the CPEC. There’s a deep sea port called Gwadar, G W A D A R. in the Pakistani part of Balochistan. It’s a pretty focal key point for the CPEC. It’s supposed to connect China with the Arabian Sea, which gives China a strategic foothold in the region.

[00:40:19] Cameron: So there’s this whole history of historical grievances, ethnic nationalism, strategic geopolitics, resource wealth, and all of this has led to like just a whole Never ending series of national and international interests conflicting there. It’s a real hotspot. So the Jayesh al Adel, which by the way translates to Army of Justice in Arabic, which is the name of my upcoming album, is a Sunni militant group.

[00:40:50] Cameron: Mostly operating in the Sistan and Balochistan province of Iran. They emerged around 2012.

[00:40:55] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:40:56] Cameron: They came out of another group called Jundala, where the leader of Jundala was arrested and executed by Iran in 2010. And so, you know, a Sunni rebellion group against the Shia government of Iran.

[00:41:13] Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:41:15] Cameron: And, you know, they’ve sort of claimed that they’re fighting for the rights of all Sunni Muslims in Iran.

[00:41:21] Cameron: They also represent the Baloch minority in Iran. So they carry out guerrilla attacks, kidnappings, bombings against Iranian security forces, and they’re often, you know, involved in cross border activities between Iran and Pakistan. So they’ll have bases in Pakistan, which will go and attack places in Iran.

[00:41:41] Cameron: And the Iranians will say, accuse the Pakistanians of, of, uh, protecting them. And then the ones in Iran will attack Pakistan and the Pakistanians will accuse the Iranians of harboring them. Although, you know, I mean, it’s just complicated. But it’s a bit like when the U. S. allegedly found Osama Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan right next to the Pakistan military’s headquarters.

[00:42:07] Cameron: Oh really? He’s that guy? Fuck, we’ve been renting that place out to him for 10 years, really? That’s Every time I said, what do I call you? He’d say, call me Mr. Bin Laden. I’d be like, really? That’s What a coincidence that your name is What’s your fir Your first name’s not Ossima, is it? It is, actually. It’s Ossima Bin Laden.

[00:42:25] Cameron: Fuck me, really? Yeah, it is. Oh, shit, hey? What a

[00:42:29] Ray: there’s two of them. There’s two of them. I did not know that.

[00:42:32] Cameron: yeah. And you look like him too! That must get really difficult when you go through

[00:42:37] Ray: Because clearly you committed. You committed to this role, so that’s all I’m saying. That’s all I’m saying. Yeah.

[00:42:46] Cameron: Here’s some, just to give people some interest, other context on what’s going on. This is from Geopolitical Monitor, but this is by an author. He’s a geopolitical scientist slash doctor, I think. But he writes freelance for Geopolitical Monitor, which is one of the geopolitical websites that I don’t mind reading.

[00:43:06] Cameron: It’s not I don’t always agree with it, but, um, he, this guy lives in Karachi, so he’s got a Pakistani bias, one would assume, but he says, the puzzling timing of Iran’s unprovoked attack raises many prickling question, quish, guh, puh. Let me start that again. The puzzling timing of Iran’s unprovoked attack raises many pricking questions about its strategic objectives, especially amid heightened tensions with the United States and other parts of the region.

[00:43:32] Cameron: Interestingly, on the day Iran conducted its strike, the caretaker Prime Minister of Pakistan engaged in a meeting with Iranian Foreign Minister during the World Economic Forum in Davos. The navies of both nations were also actively participating in a joint military exercise. Additionally, a Pakistani trade delegation was present in Iran, while another Iranian delegation was concurrently visiting Pakistan.

[00:43:59] Cameron: The convergence of diplomatic engagements, military exercises and trade delegations on the same day adds a layer of complexity to the unfolding events between the two countries. The strikes were launched a day after similar attacks carried out by Tehran inside other neighbors, Iraq and Syria. The question revolves around why Tehran chose this particular time for unprovoked missile attacks in neighboring countries simultaneously, especially in a nuclear state like Pakistan, with which it has never engaged in any past conflicts.

[00:44:31] Cameron: He goes on to conclude, the obvious answer can be traced to Tehran’s attempt To divert attention from the continued political and economic instability in its country, Iran strategically employs cross border actions to stoke nationalist sentiments and alleviate internal pressure.

[00:44:49] Ray: They’ve been doing this for years.

[00:44:51] Cameron: Well, I’m sure there’s an element of that that’s true, and I think most countries in the world are guilty of that, you know, if you want to

[00:44:59] Ray: Look over there.

[00:45:00] Cameron: a country, yeah, you attack its enemy and you beat up the fact that we’re doing this thing to fight off terrorists or fight off our enemies or whatever it is.

[00:45:09] Cameron: But I also think that there’s an element of this that has got to do with what’s going on in Gaza at the moment. It’s the Iran, the Iranians. Demonstrating their willingness to attack Uh, enemies across borders. It’s a shot across the bow. Let’s say that it’s, it’s a, Hey, listen, you know, I mean, not that people don’t take their ability to do this kind of stuff seriously, seriously, anyway.

[00:45:41] Cameron: I mean, they, they are involved. in operations in the Middle East. I don’t know necessarily it’s to the degree that they’re often accused of, you know, if, if somebody lets out a sneaky fart anywhere in the Middle East, the Western media will say it was, you know, supported by Iran. Um, but,

[00:46:03] Ray: there.

[00:46:04] Cameron: you know, yeah, but they obviously, like everyone, is sort of interested in supporting their strategic interests and their allies in the, in the region.

[00:46:14] Cameron: And speaking of which, moving on to our last story, because I have eight minutes before we have to finish this, U. S. and British militaries have been striking sites in Yemen, and I want to just touch on that before we get away. What do you know about the Houthis, Ray? Quick, 30 seconds, tell me everything you know about the Houthis.

[00:46:32] Ray: um, the Houthis are a Yemeni militia group named after their founder, a very long name, Hussein Badreddin al Houthi, um, Shia. They emerged in the 1980s as As in, uh, to oppose the Saudi Arabia’s religious influence in Yemen. So, there’s about 20 of them. They’re used to being oppressed. They’re used to being messed with.

[00:46:54] Ray: They’re used to fighting. And now, supposedly in support of the Palestinians, they are now shelling, I guess, what? Commerce ships that come by the coastline and also American and other military ships. So I, I don’t know what they’re thinking. I mean, it’s like walking up to the biggest guy and just slapping the shit out of him going, Hey, I just finished having coitus with your mom.

[00:47:15] Ray: I mean, but they are, they are literally defying all the odds by taking on America and the British Navy.

[00:47:24] Cameron: Yeah, so they, they came out, I think it was in the early 90s, those are real, as a theological movement promoted by, promoted by Hussain al Houthi. There are, there are a particular Shia sect called the Zaidi, which is different from the Twelver sect, which is dominant in Iran, but They started to basically, you know, create rebellions in Yemen because they felt that they were being marginalized as a sect by the Yemeni government, which they perceived as corrupt and too close to Western and Saudi interests.

[00:48:07] Cameron: That, that was in fact true. They were right, obviously. Um, that kind of morphed into a general armed insurgency in the early 2000s. Al Houthi himself was killed in 2004 by Yemeni government forces and that actually further radicalized the group that he left behind. In 2014 they advanced south. They seized the capital of Yemen, Ana, um, which is memo memorialized in the classic song,

[00:48:39] Cameron: Ana.

[00:48:40] Ray: Do do do. Do do do do. Yeah, I knew that. Do

[00:48:47] Cameron: A lot of people dunno.

[00:48:48] Ray: do do do do

[00:48:49] Cameron: That it was actually the Houthi

[00:48:50] Ray: Now you do.

[00:48:51] Cameron: song. That was their, that was, you know, armies have a song that they will sing when they march into battle. That was the song that they would

[00:48:58] Ray: If they were more Ha ha ha ha! helps them keep It helps them keep the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:05] Cameron: they actually seized the capital of, of Yemen in

[00:49:09] Ray: Wow! That’s impressive.

[00:49:11] Cameron: Yes. 2015, the Saudis got involved trying to restore the government of a guy called Hadi, who, there’s a long story about President Hadi, he sided with the Houthis, then he turned against the Houthis, and it was all back, and then he eventually got killed.

[00:49:24] Cameron: There’s this whole backwards and forwards thing. The Saudis Um, then launched a brutal war against, uh, the Houthis and, you know, fully supported by the United States for many years. Congress started to pull back a little bit of support for it at some stage, but they were doing it via proxy, you know, via their support for Saudi Arabia for most of that time.

[00:49:47] Ray: hmm.

[00:49:48] Cameron: And, uh, you know, it led to massive, um, instability in the region. Um, there was, uh, famine. Displacement, destruction of infrastructure in Yemen, one of the great, uh, greatest, um, crises, uh, human rights crises, uh, in the 21st century so far. Um, And the Houthis were accused of being supported by Iran and to the level and extent of how much they’re supported is still really unknown.

[00:50:22] Cameron: Yes, they’re both Shia groups. Yes, they both kind of hate the United States and Saudi Arabia. But then you’ve got the whole Twelver Shia in Iran versus the Zaidi Shia with the Houthi. And it’s again, okay, well, we worship the same God and we worship the same prophet. We even worship the same way of deciding who is the right prophet.

[00:50:40] Cameron: But your way of acknowledging. Who is the right profit is slightly, marginally different to how we see it, so therefore, that’s enough.

[00:50:52] Ray: Leave it to religion to push people further apart. That’s all I’m saying. That’s all I’m saying.

[00:50:58] Cameron: But the Houthis aren’t just a rebellion, a rebel group in Yemen these days, they’re a serious political force, massively intertwined with the country. And the country, as I said, faces food insecurity, disrupted food supplies, inflated prices, millions are relying on humanitarian aid, which hasn’t really been coming from the international community because the US is preventing it.

[00:51:23] Cameron: Um They’ve been on the brink of famine, children vulnerable to malnutrition and starvation, hospitals have been destroyed, the health system has completely collapsed, um, there have been outbreaks of diseases like cholera, diphtheria because of poor sanitation, lack of clean water, lack of health care, those sorts of things.

[00:51:42] Cameron: Of course,

[00:51:43] Ray: For

[00:51:43] Cameron: airstrikes by the Saudi led coalition and ground fighting led to thousands and thousands of civilian deaths, uh, including many, many children. Employment’s rampant, you know, usual thing, just they’re completely, you know, trying, the Saudis, backed by the United States, are basically trying to wipe out a large percentage of the Yemeni population so they can, quote unquote, bring stability, which means, you know, reinstating a government that’s friendly to Saudi interests.

[00:52:15] Cameron: So, to be fair, the Houthis were attacking Saudi infrastructure. You know, they’re doing cross border attacks as well. Who, who start, who shot first, Greedo or Hahn? You know, we won’t know until the smoke clears, but.

[00:52:29] Ray: Exactly.

[00:52:30] Cameron: That’s what’s going on. That’s sort of the background of that. So the Houthis in Yemen have been attacking vessels in the Red Sea, because they sit, again, like Balochistan, they sort of sit on this trade corridor.

[00:52:41] Cameron: They sit on the Red Sea, and they’re saying that they’re doing it in support of the Palestinians in Gaza.

[00:52:48] Ray: Uh huh.

[00:52:52] Cameron: we’re going to do is disrupt shipping. create economic, um, uh, issues for you, probably affecting Egypt more than it’s affecting Israel, because I think more of Egypt’s economy relies on traffic through the Suez Canal.

[00:53:05] Ray: right.

[00:53:06] Cameron: it’s also probably more about Uh, attacking Saudi Arabia and hurting Saudi Arabia by attacking shipping in this region as well. It’s got more to do with just Israel, but it’s also just attacking the West. It’s trying to create turmoil in the West. And, and often like going back to the original Hamas attack on October 7th, it, I think it’s largely designed to create Uh, awareness about the issues that these people are facing, uh, that the, that the Houthi are facing,

[00:53:40] Ray: Because you won’t even know it.

[00:53:42] Cameron: Palestinians are facing.

[00:53:43] Cameron: If you can create conflict in these regions, you get it on the front page of the newspapers, you get it on the news, hopefully people in the West pay attention and do something. And, you know, judging by the response of surveys, uh, in the U. S. of the young people, it’s, it’s having an

[00:54:02] Ray: Oh, they’re pissed.

[00:54:03] Cameron: raising awareness, uh, for them.

[00:54:06] Cameron: Now, of course, in response to, uh, these attacks on ships in the Red Sea, the U. S. and the U. K. have started bombing the fuck out of Yemen. Military targets, they say. Um And, uh, the legality of the U. S. and the U. K. arbitrarily bombing sites in Yemen is really, uh, questionable. It hasn’t been approved by the U.

[00:54:31] Cameron: N. Security Council. The U. N. Security Council has wagged its finger at the Houthi for doing all of this. Nobody, including China and Russia, wants global traffic in the Red Sea trade, uh, to get disrupted.

[00:54:45] Ray: Disrupted. Absolutely.

[00:54:46] Cameron: But it’s more affecting, uh, the United States and the UK shipping companies, uh, and, and Israeli shipping companies, et cetera, et cetera, that are linked to the

[00:54:56] Ray: They’re, they’re, they’re desperate, so they’ll do anything to get, like you said, get attention. And you’re right, it is working.

[00:55:01] Cameron: And the Houthi are making unreasonable demands, uh, to stop their attacks. They say they demand Israel allows full humanitarian supplies to enter Gaza. Oh, okay. Not so unreasonable after all. Uh, that’s And in response to In response to this threat, the US uh, forced Israel to allow full humanitarian supplies to enter Gaza.

[00:55:24] Cameron: No, wait, I read that wrong. No, the US of Britain just bombed the fuck out of Houthis military targets. Um,

[00:55:29] Ray: can,

[00:55:32] Cameron: now

[00:55:32] Ray: help ease the suffering or we can make more people suffer. I say we go with the second option. For

[00:55:38] Cameron: the US’ justification for it is that the hou are attacking US interests, and that’s why they can, uh, attack them. When Russia does something because it’s threatening their interests, or China does something because it’s threatening their interests, Yeah, legal. When the U. S. or the U. K. does something to protect their interests, well, that’s different, as David Markham will say.

[00:56:00] Cameron: Well, it’s not the same thing! It’s different! Mm hmm. Everything’s different to everything else. Yes, I get that. It’s the principle,

[00:56:06] Ray: loving, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, one, two, one side, yeah, go ahead, sorry,

[00:56:14] Cameron: Well, look, I could talk more about this. I’ve got to go. My time is up. I just wanted to say, though, that the issue with them and the Saudis, Yemen and the Saudis in this, is interesting because obviously, the Saudis are fighting the Yemenis, because the Houthi are pretty much Yemen now.

[00:56:34] Cameron: Um, the Saudis, though, are also supposedly supporters of the Palestinian cause. The Houthi are attacking the ships in the Red Sea to support the Palestinian cause, which the Saudis also support.

[00:56:49] Ray: right,

[00:56:50] Cameron: the Houthis are supported by Iran, and Iran and the Saudis don’t get along, even though they Worship the same God and the same prophet. Just disagree on how they worship him. Um, but, so, it’s complicated, man. It reminds me of when Obama was siding with Al Qaeda to fight ISIS back in the early days of the Syrian war.

[00:57:14] Ray: It got crazy. It

[00:57:15] Cameron: in this case, it’s not the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it’s the friend of my friend is my enemy. Saudi Arabia’s like, okay, well, you’re friends of the Palestinians, we’re friends of the Palestinians, but you’re still my enemy.

[00:57:29] Cameron: So it’s complicating that whole thing.

[00:57:33] Ray: It makes more sense. Kit, Kit, before you go, I just got to tell you something real quick to make you feel better that you’re Australian. One, um, there’s a representative, and I think it’s in the state of Kentucky, who’s put forward a bill to make it legal to have sex with your first cousin. I think there’s a little personal interest going on there.

[00:57:52] Ray: Yeah, um, there’s There’s another one, um, in Colorado, a bill has been introduced to bring back duels when, uh, representatives are, are insulted by other representatives, not by the civilians, but by, they’re, they’re allowed to challenge them to duels, um, let’s see here, um, oh, and my, and the last one is in Florida, there’s a bill, this one’s probably going to pass, um, that forbids anybody in the state who is 16 years or young, 16 year, years old or younger to use social media.

[00:58:23] Ray: So, thank God you’re in Australia. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let you know how it goes. This is gonna be the, uh, apocalypse here. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:58:32] Cameron: We didn’t even get time to talk about the Republican primaries. We’ll have to do that next time, but obviously Trump, clean sweep. Uh, DeSantis fell over at the first hurdle. Um, it’s just,

[00:58:45] Ray: the man, yeah, he’s not a human. He’s, he’s a walking shit stain. Anyway, we’ll

[00:58:50] Cameron: be an interesting year. All right. Gotta run. Kung Fu waits for no man. See you later, buddy.

[00:58:58] Ray: Alright, buh bye.

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