The demand for emails is enormous. And there are probably more copywriters writing emails than any other product. But that doesn’t mean those emails are great. Some are barely readable. Others go straight to the junk folder—where they belong. There’s never been more need for better emails than today. So for the 395th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we asked email strategist and copywriter Donnie Bryant to share what he knows about email. Donnie is the author of Subject Line Science, a short book that will help you get more emails opened. If you write emails for clients or your own business, you’ll want to lick the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript now.

 

Stuff to check out:

Subject Line Science by Donnie Bryant
Tricks of the Mind by Derren Brown
SubjectLineScience.com
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

 

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about email. When copywriters reach out to us, they often ask what’s the best way to learn how to write emails and probably more importantly, land clients who need help with regular emails. And it kind of feels like there’s been a sea change around email over the past couple of years. Maybe it’s because email is a great way to connect one on one… or at least in a way that feels one to one. OR maybe it’s the shift in buying behavior that’s happened over the past decade. I’m not sure… but what I am sure about is that email isn’t going anywhere. It’s getting more important, not less. And it’s a great service to offer for clients who need ongoing help… that is the kind of clients you can work with long term.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed copywriter Donnie Bryant.  Donnie recently wrote a book about subject lines and what it takes to write them, so he was the perfect guest to invite on the show to talk about email, strategizing a campaign—which I asked him to walk through step by step, as well as what it takes to break into the financial copy niche. If you want to write emails as part of your business, you’ll want to listen to this episode until the end.

Now before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May.  Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now. NOTE: Sorry, this bonus is gone.

We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to subscribers who paid to recieve his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. Even new subscribers to his newsletter don’t have access. But he offered to give this strategy—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May—and only for members of The Underground. 

If you were to purchase these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. Plus you get all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with your membership in The Underground. There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Donnie.

Donnie, let’s kick this off with your story. How did you get to be a copywriter? I think you’ve been described as one of the best email copywriters, sales copywriters out there. So tell us your story.
Donnie Bryant: Yeah, well, it didn’t really start out that way. Right. I think I feel like a lot of us copywriters kind of stumbled into it. When I was a very young boy, I always wanted to write. But I really thought I would write science books or some kind of nonfiction books. I often tell the story. My grandmother had, in her house, 25,000 books—kind of like your wall there. That’s nuts.

Rob Marsh: People won’t be able to see it because we don’t have the video here, but yeah, there’s a lot of books behind me.

Donnie Bryant: Okay. So I grew up loving books. I thought I would write them, but it’s kind of a childhood dream. I also wanted to be an astronaut, but that didn’t happen. Getting into regular life, I went to college, got married, and then got into the working world, retail, to provide for the family. And over time, I continued to find myself in roles where I was doing marketing and or communications for the companies I was working for, even though that wasn’t in my job description or anywhere near it. 

But these opportunities kept bubbling up. And my wife, being the intelligent person that she is, she said, you always said you wanted to do something with writing, so why don’t you just explore that? And I did. And so in 2007, while I was working 70 hours a week at Kmart, for everyone who remembers Kmart. There’s a handful of them left.

Rob Marsh: Blue light specials. 

Donnie Bryant: That’s right. I started to study while I was working. There was a library directly across the parking lot from the Kmart I worked at and Bob Bly’s books were over there. So I just went over and started to study and that’s where that’s where it all began. I love the written word and I like selling. And so the two married pretty nicely.

Rob Marsh: So it’s one thing to love that and to think, “Hey, I want to do something with writing.” It’s quite another to start making money at it. So as you discovered, what this thing is, how did you turn that into a business opportunity?

Donnie Bryant: This is funny. I don’t remember how I discovered this, but at least back in the day on Craigslist there was a little section at the bottom called gigs and in various cities they would have gigs and I would just look for writing gigs. Anyone who I thought I could help or who I thought I could convince, I sent messages. And because you instantly know or quickly know, if I ever want to have a crack at this, I’ve got to start making some money. So I probably started soliciting clients before I was responsibly capable of earning their money. Actually, that may not be true because some of my early projects I think turned out really well. But I started very quickly trying to solicit clients. I began through Craigslist and I looked at some job boards, but the first clients came through the little gigs section on Craigslist. Not long after that, you know, as you study, you see the experts say you got to have an online presence. So I started doing a blog, and I started my own email newsletter. And I got on LinkedIn, which seemed like ages ago, must have been about 2010. Started spending a lot of time on LinkedIn, and things kind of developed from there.

Rob Marsh: Cool. So again, I just kind of want to follow the career path. With those initial gigs, if I remember right, and I was writing way back then as well, a lot of those were like $15 jobs, $25 jobs. Basically, you’d spend three or four hours or maybe even longer writing a project and make less per hour than you might at a retail job. What was it about it that made you think, “hey, this is what I’m going to lean into and I’m going to make this work?”

Donnie Bryant: I think it was something that I could see and control because job boards—it’s the same—but everything else was different. A mystery to me. I didn’t know anything about promoting myself. I didn’t know anything about outreach or anything like that. But I knew that these jobs existed. People were paying people to write. And so, like I said, I don’t remember how I found out about it. Maybe someone mentioned it. But yeah, I remember I got some very tiny projects. I did an eight-page sales letter for $25. And the client paid me $35 because he gave me a tip for doing a good job. And he actually ran that sales letter for at least three years. So I have no idea how much money he made from it.

Rob Marsh: That’s like $7.70 per page, and probably less than that per hour.

Donnie Bryant: Yeah, it was bad. And it wasn’t a topic that I wasn’t super well versed in, so I had to do some research. I just was reading his material to get a hang of it. I think it performed well. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have used it for three years. And that was how it went. 

The breakthrough job for me, it was similar in the pay per project thing. It was a very small payout. But they had an unlimited number of pages that you could do. You got paid per page. It was actually for speed dating. Speed dating, I think, was a new phenomenon at that time. And we needed to do SEO. And we had speed dating pop-ups in every city in America. So unlimited may be a stretch, but there were thousands of sites, geographically, specific sites, and they all needed four or five pages. And so it was like, write as much as you want. And I would work all day and come home and write all night. And I was able to start making some good money and gain some confidence that way. But you’re right, they were small paying jobs. But I also met a great client. The first person who told me “You need to charge me more than you asked me for this.” But he was a consultant who used to work at Microsoft. And I met him on Craigslist, surprisingly, and turned that into a long-term engagement with higher-paying projects. You kind of build brick by brick, learning lessons as you go.

Rob Marsh: And so is this the point at which you’re doing this now full time? Or how do you shift away from supporting your family, doing retail, working, all of the stuff that the real workers do versus writers? What was that turning point? And what did your business start looking like at that point?

Donnie Bryant: Yeah, it was right there. When I found out I could write an unlimited amount of paid work, I wasn’t making all that much in retail. Right. Well, yeah, who does, right? And I think about the numbers now. I know inflation and cost of living are way up. But there are people who can walk in the door at McDonald’s and make $15 an hour, depending on where you live. I was making about $15 an hour as an assistant manager at Kmart at that time. Maybe a little bit less when you factor in the hours. But $35,000 was what I was earning then. So to replace that income didn’t seem so far out there. So I just, I ground it out and just doing this quantity of work. And my relationship with my wife suffered at that point because I had to spend as much time as I could writing the projects that I could write and still trying to build a presence online, trying to find better gigs and develop relationships. I probably spent 17, 18 hours every day just either writing projects, low-paying projects, or trying to build up from there with LinkedIn and things like that.

Rob Marsh: Amazing. So let’s fast forward to what you’re doing today. Obviously you’re not writing seven page sales pages for $35 anymore. Talk to us about the kind of work that you’re doing and the kinds of clients that you serve today.

Donnie Bryant: Okay. These days I’m mostly working with financial clients, publishers, you know, newsletter publishers tend to be my bread and butter or have been for the last eight or so years. Maybe nine years. Also, I enjoy writing for financial educators, people who are doing training, educational stuff, courses, and financial service providers as well. Totally different world, because in publishing we make outlandish claims and really ramp up the emotionalism. And then as a financial service provider, the regulations are much stricter, so you have to work within the confines of what’s permitted, what you’re permitted to say. And it’s a lot more subdued, but I really enjoy those spaces. The majority of my clients for the last eight or nine years have been in various financial spaces, but I do all kinds of projects. I really love email marketing. I love it. That’s probably my first love, but I’ve done, you know, the hour long video sales letters, Google ads, advertorials, video scripts like for YouTube ads, Facebook ads, pretty much anything you can think of—just depending on what the situation calls for.

Rob Marsh: I think there’s a lot of people who look at the financial industry and think that everybody talks about how it’s the most profitable one out there. I’m not sure that’s always true because any niche can be profitable if you have contacts, you’re doing the right work, but there’s a lot of people who do make pretty good money writing in the financial world. Will you tell us, if somebody were coming to you saying, “hey, Donnie, I want to work for a financial newsletter, how do I break in? How do I get there?” What would you do if you were trying to break in there today?

Donnie Bryant: The first thing, and I do get this question a lot, the first thing that I always recommend that people do is go and study the game. Sign up for the email list and click on all the ads from A Motley Fool or Agora Financial, companies like that, because you have to know how they operate if you want to have any prayer to become a writer for them. You have to see how they write, the kind of things that they write about, the style that they write in, and understand why. So the first thing I always say is you have to go study what they do. Watch the whole 60-minute sales video. You got to sit and watch it. And some of them are very fun, so they don’t make it drudgery for you to do that. But you begin to do that and study and try to understand why they work. 

I think the second thing that makes a lot of sense is to begin to connect with other people who are financial copywriters. A large percentage of these companies these days are hiring in-house writers. So you’ve got a team of people. They’re not freelancers. They’re not necessarily all over the place. But you can still find them online. They’re on LinkedIn, they’re on Facebook, and they’re talking about copywriting, and they’re in the copywriting groups. And so if you can find some of those individuals and talk to them, it gives you an opportunity to understand the workings of those organizations, and then also knowing someone who’s in the company, they can let you know about opportunities, put in a good word for you. That’s happened for me more than once, being connected to even just regular copywriters, but you can connect with higher up people in the organizations as well. 

And then going to events is a great way. AWAI Bootcamp, for example. You’ll meet publishers there, financial marketing summit. I’m just naming names. I don’t want to leave anybody out or overly promote anybody. But when you go to places like that, you’ll be able to connect with the people who make decisions, the people in that space. And it also helps you to learn and grow very quickly. 

And then outreach. You have to be creative, because a lot of people are reaching out to these people. The publishers and the decision makers act like Agora. Everybody wants to work for Agora. You need a creative outreach. Joe Schriefer talks about getting weird things in the mail. Somebody sent him a gold coin or something. You can’t ignore that. Now we’ve got to have a conversation. I know another guy who recorded an interview with AI. talking about a future hypothetical situation. You send a flash drive via FedEx. OK, I got to listen to it. You show how engaging, creative you can be. And that gets your foot in the door. And then you got to show up with confidence when you’re having those conversations. It’s easy to be intimidated. But if you shrink back and seem like you’re nervous, that decreases the chances that you’ll win the gig because the person who’s talking to you wonders if you really have the chops, if you’re showing up like you’re nervous.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, and while we’re talking about having the chops, what kinds of samples or previous experience would you bring to the table there, too? Because obviously, you’ve got this Catch-22. You’re trying to break in in order to get the experience, but you need some experience in order to break in. So how do you overcome that problem?

Donnie Bryant: I’m glad you asked that question. These days, it seems like most of the publishers, if you’re not already established, they start you off on the short form stuff anyway. Ads, like space ads, emails, yeah, the shorter form things. That’s where they want to see you begin. And a lot of times, they bring in new writers in-house. Your first day, you’re not going to write the video sales letter. You’re not going to do that. But they put you in on smaller, short form email writing and things like that. So you can just write them, you know, not so much on spec, but mock one up. I’m going to write one so you can see how I would approach this. And you should do it for existing promotions. I see that you’re promoting this trading service. Here’s some additional angles that you could use, additional ways of presenting the idea. And when a promotion works, they need a million emails. And they need a million ads. So if you write good ones and send them as a sample, they might hire you and buy them from you right now, immediately. That’s a good place to start. So you kind of have to do it on your own. I don’t see a lot of people just saying, hey, write something and send it to me. You had to take the initiative. But that’s where you would start, emails, probably, space ads, maybe even advertorials for the 800-word range, maybe 1,000-word range. Some of the companies still use advertorials for lead gen. Not so much lead gen, but top of funnel.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. OK, so starting out with small stuff, email. You mentioned earlier that email is one of your favorite things to write. I’m going to tease it right now. You’ve written a book about subject lines and emails. So let’s talk about email marketing. And before we started recording, I mentioned to you, I feel like there’s been this change around email over the last year. Maybe it’s since the pandemic. I don’t know. But where companies seem to realize they need more of it, there’s more opportunity around writing emails for copywriters. Again, you obviously have this book about how you break through. What’s going on with email, and why should we be doing more of it?

Donnie Bryant: I think that you identified one of the key factors. During the pandemic, We all started thinking about things differently. Well, most people started thinking about things differently. I need to be able to sell online. And even for the individuals who aren’t, they’re already online anyway. But seeing how the world now collapsed, we had to figure out a different way to get in touch with people. And social is not always the most productive place to put your words. They go into a black hole. 2% of your audience sees it unless you pay for an ad and not everyone is ready to do that. So I think there was an awareness shift. 

I think there’s also a lot of training, a lot of copywriters are saying this is the easiest way to become a copywriter, get into email. And so there’s a lot of awareness on the service side in terms of copywriters coming into the game are now talking about email and pushing email as a service that they can provide. And so we’re seeing an awareness Awareness from the entrepreneurs and the businesses, there’s also an influx of copywriters who want to write email. That’s like the easiest way to start. But I think also, what I mentioned a second ago, social media is inconsistent, and it’s increasingly difficult to have consistent visibility unless you’re paying for it on social media. Then you’re in paid ads territory. And so email, as long as you can get it delivered, has a much higher percentage chance of being read by opted-in individuals. And so I think that there’s kind of a confluence of those factors.

Rob Marsh: Okay. And when it comes to email, obviously, like you said, there’s a variety of factors that impact our ability to get through. One is, you know, who the sender is, that kind of stuff. Obviously, you know, catching attention. So subject line, that kind of thing. And then there’s the email itself. Can you break down for us how you think about, you know, as you’re working with a client, how do you think through, you know, the strategy behind the emails that you’re sending? And yeah, let’s go deep on subject lines while we go through here.

Donnie Bryant: This is one of my favorite things. Well, I want to point out that you said something super important that everyone doesn’t think about. And it’s part of my book. Even though the book is called Subject Line Science, as a preliminary foundational reality, the most important factor is not the subject line, but it’s who the sender is. And so we all have to be conscious of how we bring people onto our list. who we present ourselves to be. And the connection between the lead generation or the acquisition of names onto the list, we had to be cognizant of how we bring people on and the reasons behind why they signed up. 

And then our messaging, how it connects to that reason. Because a lot of times, we’ll bring people on for what seems like a very exciting trend. AI is everywhere, right? And it should be. But if you say, you know, 10 super prompts that will make your AI perfect. And then you deliver on the lead magnet. But then your emails are talking about other things. You quickly disengage. That’s just an example. But I think a lot of times we kind of do that. We want a lead magnet that’s sexy. And it’s the most exciting topic that anyone’s talking about. But that’s not necessarily what we’re ready to deliver long term. 

And so we bring people onto the list. It’s kind of not an intentional bait and switch, but we bring them on for what ends up being the wrong reasons. They really want to know about AI. We presented ourselves as AI experts or our email newsletter as an email newsletter or AI newsletter. And then it turns out, I really want to talk about something else. 

So the first thing is what you said, establishing ourselves as a person who, people know, our subscribers know, I’m a person who sends valuable, relevant content. And then they’ll open anything. They’ll open anything. And we’ve all seen that, where we send a subject line that is kind of mediocre, but it’s, you know, it’s just what I got for today. And you’re surprised by the open rate. It’s not necessarily because it was a great subject line. It’s because people want to hear from Rob. They want to hear from Kira. They want to hear from whoever. So that’s the first part. 

As we begin to develop the strategy, though, it’s important to, again, really understand what you ultimately want to accomplish with the people on that list. Where do you want to take them? What’s the journey we’re taking them on? What are their feelings about that? What do they already believe? When people come onto your list, they have certain beliefs. They may be correct, or they may be incorrect. I won’t say that. They may be your beliefs that you want them to hold, or they may be ones that are detrimental. And so you had to think through, how do we connect where they are currently so that we can bring them where they need to be on a belief level, and on an emotional level, and then on a practical level? What’s the situation that they’re in that they want to improve upon? In whatever way you do that. For the health experts, we want to help you get fit. Or for the financial people, how do we help you build a nest egg so you can retire and feel great about that? So what’s the journey? So you have to factor all those things in as you begin to think about what the strategy should be. 

I like to think about the strategy from lead gen through forever, because how you bring people on, again, really impacts everything that happens afterwards. So that includes the lead gen, the ad, and the lead magnet, and the welcome sequence. When we bring them into our world, how do we do that? And then after you’ve kind of set the stage there, then emails take the journey further, or take them to the ultimate destination. So it’s really understanding them primarily. Everything else you can retrofit. Whatever you’re selling, it attaches to their current situation and then also their dreams and desires and their fears and frustrations and their pains and their problems. How do we get them from that place to where they want to go using our service or our product? 

I say it like this, really what people want is they want to accomplish their dreams with what they already have with just a little bit of help from you. They don’t really want to change their life that much. They want to change outcomes. They don’t want to change their routines, not most people. We’re taking them from where they are. and bringing them to where they want to be with minimal disruption of life and maximum enjoyment of the things that they’re already enjoying.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think that’s actually really important. You think about even our own personal behavior, right? Most of us want to stay within this comfort zone. Or we’re like, maybe I can step outside of my comfort zone, but I only want to go one or two steps. I am not willing to jump off the cliff, or I’m not taking on something totally new. And I think you’re hitting on something really important here, because a lot of us do it when we email, we’re asking people to take pretty massive steps, you know, not just, “hey, here’s a $2,000 program to spend your money on.” But also time commitments, moving from something that they’re comfortable doing into something that is really uncomfortable. This is why we all want the magic pill, the silver bullet, because we want it easy. And I think at some level, we understand everybody wants it easy. But then how do you sell those big steps to somebody if we only want to take a step or two outside of the comfort zone?

Donnie Bryant: It’s a great point. And a lot of that comes back to the offer. We need to make offers that are better. As we’re creating our own stuff, you can do whatever you want. With a client, you may or may not have influence over what their offer is, in terms of the actual deliverable. But you want to work on projects where people don’t have to jump through hoops to begin feeling some sort of progress. And of course, you gradually move them. You’re comfortable taking one step at a time. So depending on the kind of program it is, you may be able to gradualize them into the big change. But you’re right. If you make it obvious—you have to give up ice cream if you want to be fit. I was planning on having ice cream tonight. So I don’t want to do this—we had to figure out other ways. 

You want to be honest, of course. You don’t want to tell people that you can eat whatever you want and then find out you can eat whatever you want from this restricted list of eight things that include barley and flaxseed and wheat germ and cucumber. We want to be honest. Again, we want to frame things in a way that people can see themselves doing it. If you can’t visualize yourself taking the steps, or you can’t visualize yourself accomplishing the final outcome that you’re thinking about, the copy can’t connect. They don’t even believe it in their own mind for them to say, oh, this is great. They would probably say, yeah, that’s for somebody else.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s a good point. Okay, so I wonder if you’re able to do this, can we actually talk about a real campaign, maybe something that’s out there in life, but talk about sort of start to finish, the different elements, your thinking on it, how you put it together. I know I’m sort of throwing that at you out of the blue, and sometimes clients don’t want you sharing that stuff, but hopefully there’s something that we can talk through. So really make this tangible for anybody who’s listening.

Donnie Bryant: Sure. I can give some pretty good details about a recent campaign without giving away everything. It’s not a super complex campaign. Obviously, sometimes we’re doing 20 message campaigns. There’s more steps that you have to go through. It really depends on what you’re attempting to accomplish. But a recent campaign that I worked on—it’s for a financial newsletter and we were promoting, well, you know, as we were recording recently, we’ve heard nuclear fusion, you know, with AI, we’re starting to figure out how you can create energy, actually create positive energy from nuclear fusion. Whereas in the past, it would take more energy to make the fusion reaction happen than you would get out of it. So it didn’t make sense, but scientists are working on it. And then with AI now, we’re discovering. You actually can make fusion energy positive. I don’t know if that’s the right term. You can make more energy from it than you’re putting in. And so now there’s actually companies that are beginning to really develop this technology. We’re probably 10 years away from it being really feasible, but whatever. As an investment opportunity, it’s exciting. 

But to our previous point, it’s kind of long term. I don’t want to invest today in something that may pay off in 10 years. I need to at least begin to start seeing something happening now. So this is the opportunity. The thing we’re trying to sell is a nuclear-based report. And so you kind of have to work backwards. Where are our readers at right now? They’re a little nervous about nuclear energy. This is something that we’ve just found. They’re a little nervous about nuclear energy. Because Fukushima was not that long ago. We can remember that. We remember Three Mile Island and Chernobyl never goes away. There’s six leg dogs out there in Russia somewhere. And we’re a little uneasy about it. But the fact of the matter is, all around America, nuclear power is a significant source of energy. And then around the world, they’ve just committed to really ramping this up for the reason of clean energy, because carbon fuels are poisoning the planet. I’ve gone way off in the deep end. 

Rob Marsh: That’s okay. We’re tracking, so we’re good. 

Donnie Bryant: Okay. You have to consider all these things before you start writing where people are at. They’re a little nervous about nuclear energy. They’re unsure. So we have to give some education and reassurance. Also, they’re not necessarily confident, at least not instantly, that this is going to be an immediate payoff as an investment. And it’s not. So understanding these things… you work backwards. 

Nuclear is a bigger topic than just fusion. Fusion is kind of top of mind because it’s in the news. But nuclear fission, the reactors we have now, well, they’re even developing new technology for that. There the companies that are working on these are there’s two things Uranium is that like all not all-time highs but super high prices so you can see profits happening right now. Over the last two years you could have doubled your money on this So we work our way back backwards. Here’s it one of the most exciting opportunities. 

So this is email 1 in this sequence. One of the most exciting opportunities in the market is something no one is talking about. Here’s a chart, over the last two years, you could have more than doubled your money. It’s close to triple your money on a couple of these stocks. It’s not AI, but AI is related. It’s not crypto, much safer than that. But it’s actually embedded in American society today and it’s going to become even bigger.

Email one is very short. Because it’s designed to send people to a sales page. So it’s basically that. You could have doubled your money. And guess what? The future is looking even better. So email one kind of sets it up, hands it off to the sales page. But the sales page explains the big picture. Everything that’s happening. Uranium is going up. There’s new reaction technology, which is beginning to come into play right now. And Fusion, in the near future, will be a viable option because of AI. So that’s what’s happening on the sales page. 

Email 2, then what we did was to maintain high curiosity. So here’s how I think about campaigns. The longer campaign is, the more you have to break it down. But in the initial few emails, I really like to be high on curiosity. All I really want to do is get them to the sales page. 

And as you get a little deeper in the campaign, you add more specifics to the emails. Because if they haven’t clicked yet, they’re not going to click. And if they have clicked but haven’t bought yet, they need more information. And you really don’t want to just try, OK, get them to the sales page again. You just want to further show them why this opportunity is massive. And then when you get even closer to the end, you get even more detail, and then you go into urgency. That’s kind of how I set it up.

But in this case, email 2 is still curiosity. Turns out, I don’t know if many people knew this, but Amazon just bought a nuclear powered data center.

Rob Marsh: I did not know that.

Donnie Bryant: Yeah, new to me. They finalized the deal in March. So in Pennsylvania, there’s a nuclear reactor that Amazon now uses to power its business. By the way, Amazon as a company uses more electricity than the whole country of Ireland. The whole country. So what do you think it’s doing? It’s buying nuclear because this is the power source of the future. Find out more about how you can profit from that. It’s really that. The subject line that compliance wouldn’t let me use was, Amazon just bought its first nuke.

Rob Marsh: That’s a good line.

Donnie Bryant: We settled on Amazon just went nuclear or something like that, which is true. It’s an allusion to the stock going straight up. The stock isn’t going to go straight up. But Amazon is still a great buy, no matter what. And we’re not even recommending Amazon. But I really like the idea of the curiosity play. They just bought their first nuke. Jeff Bezos is, I always knew he was a little crazy, but he’s buying nukes now. We’re in trouble. So anyway, curiosity. 

Carrying on a little bit more, then in the next one, email 3, do a little bit more about the specifics. We can show you uranium prices are going crazy and here’s why. We can show you that companies, like Rolls-Royce, the car company, makes nuclear reactors now. Or I don’t know if now is correct. They’re working on new reactor technology. And so real companies that you know are doing exciting new work. And guess what? In December, countries around the world, like 26 countries, committed to tripling their investment in nuclear energy. What do you think that’s going to do to these stocks? So again, we’re building more information. 

So the curiosity gets you to the sales page in the first couple. And then in the next few, we just do specifics like that. Uranium prices. There’s 200 different companies working on this new reactor technology. Which ones are going to win? Well, you could guess. Or you could get research from somebody who’s in the field doing this. And the Amazon thing. Anyway, we’re layering on details. Because we want you to be somewhat convinced. 

Like I said, the first few are curiosity where you’re going to be convinced on the sales page. But for people who haven’t bought yet, we’re going to do some of the convincing in the emails, the next two or three emails. After that, we just go into an urgency thing. This report is only going to be available until Sunday. Our editor has picked this and that stock in the past. They’ve done 1,000% or whatever. And we believe these next picks could be just as profitable. It’s up for you to decide. You’ve got until Sunday. So we do that through the next three emails. And that’s it. It performed well. It could have performed better, but we also ran over Easter weekend. So I think that had something to do with the numbers.

Rob Marsh: So let me recap this, to make sure I understand it, because I I really like the deep dive. This isn’t something that we do a lot on the podcast, at least for me, as I’m envisioning. It’s really helpful. But early on, curiosity is the number one thing. You’re just trying to get the click to the sales page. 

Donnie Bryant: Right. 

Rob Marsh: So that’s the first, say, three to five emails. After that, if they haven’t clicked, they probably won’t. So now you’re shifting to the audience of people who did click previously, but now they just need more information to bring them back, to get them re-excited, to reconnect with them. Then finally, if that hasn’t worked, urgency is the play. And that’s going to take you through a sequence of maybe 15 or 20 emails as you go through. Did I get that right?

Donnie Bryant: Yeah, that’s right. I think that applies across anywhere where you have a good sales page, I would use that kind of a framework. If your sales page is not very well developed or you’re not really sure it’s going to perform well, you may want to do some of the selling more early on, do more selling in the emails versus just curiosity. But after a few curiosity emails—Amazon just bought its first Nuke. You can only do that a few times before people know what you’re doing. So that’s why I use the curiosity factor while I can. Curiosity is always going to be a factor, but pure curiosity for the first few emails. And then the deeper, more detailed and adding some of the selling into the body of the email happens in the middle phase. So yeah.

Rob Marsh: Okay. I like it. Let’s talk about subject lines in particular and your approach, you know, what you teach in the book. Obviously we’re going to link to the book in the show notes and hopefully people will decide to pick it up. But I have a feeling that my subject lines that I send out, maybe one out of 10 is solid, really good. And the other seven or eight, maybe even nine, I’m just like, yeah, I probably should’ve spent some more time thinking about that one. So how do I fix this problem that I’ve got?

Donnie Bryant: Number one, you’re probably being harder on yourself than you ought to be.

Rob Marsh: Maybe so. But let’s assume that I am not very good at subject lines and I could use some improvement.

Donnie Bryant: By the way, I was just remarking to my mastermind, imagine the pressure that you feel when you wrote a book about subject lines. And now I got to send an email out. Yeah, exactly. I can’t mail it in because then Donnie’s disproving his whole book. So I feel additional pressure. But I love subject lines. I love to do crazy things with subject lines. But again, you can’t always do crazy things. You shouldn’t always do crazy things. But you always need to have something that people are going to either be curious about. Like I said, curiosity is pretty much always in play.  Even if you’re saying, even if you’re leaning into a different appeal, they’re still curious to know more about what you’re talking about. 30% off, select items. I’m curious which items it is. There’s still curiosity because I’d like to say 30%. The main appeal is the discount, but they’re curious if they can get the discount on the thing that they want. So curiosity is always going to be in play. 

Okay, so in the book there, I have 11, I call them made-you-look ideas. So it’s really 11 different ways that I think of—and there’s probably more—11 different ways that I think of to get people to open your email. And I suggest cycling through, not cycling in a methodical way, but burying the different appeal that you use because If people think they know what you’re going to say in an email, I’m not going to waste my time opening that because I know what Donnie’s going to say. I’ve seen this before. So you want to vary things and use different appeals. So I think a lot of people lean too heavily on one style. And if you pay attention over time, you’ll likely see diminishing returns on if you’re always doing emails that sound like it’s from a friend. You know, hey Donnie, and that’s the whole subject line. That’ll work great, but not if you do it every time. Right? Like, OK, what do you want, Donnie? What do you want? You’re not my friend, and I’m not going to fall for that. But the same thing is true for, you know, 20 ways to make more money, 35 ways to increase your income, you know, how I doubled my income last year. And so it’s like, that sort of appeal, it’s really cool. But if you do it too many times, people will say, I’ve seen this before. Hey, Donnie is one. How I doubled my income in 2024, that’d be another one. And so varying them keeps it fresh in the inbox. Being predictable is dangerous. So anyway, there’s 11. 

So some of them are like story. I love using—you can tease a story in a subject line. I’m going to tell you one that is one of my favorites. Homeless folks need Netflix too. That was for my list. It wasn’t for a client. I don’t know if any client would let me do that. But it was a true story about a relative of mine who didn’t have a place to live, but had the four-screen Netflix account. There’s a lesson in there. But when you read the subject line like that, you say, there’s got to be a story here. And you want to know what’s going on in the story. Another one that I wrote, again, from my list. I always talk about this, and it’s probably corporate clients who would never hire me because I say this, but the subject line was: dot, dot, dot, and they left the cocaine.

Rob Marsh: That is a great line.

Donnie Bryant: And the email isn’t even about cocaine. There’s cocaine in the email, but it’s really about something else. I would tell you the story, but it’s long. But the idea there is when you see that subject line, you know there’s an interesting story inside. So I’m not recommending that you have to talk about salacious things like cocaine. But, you know, implying a story that lets people automatically engage with stories. They want to hear how things play out. They want to see the dramatic narrative arc happen. And so when you can do that in the subject line, And it takes practice, but when you begin to do that, where you can imply that there’s a story, people automatically want to know the rest of the story. That’s why movie trailers work. You see a trailer, and then you know, I want to see the rest of the movie. And so that’s one thing. 

Now, again, you probably don’t want to do that every time, but that’s a good one to have in the arsenal. Another one, which I call the Tootsie Roll Center of Selling, or the Tootsie Roll Center of Persuasion, which is insecurity. Now, I’m not talking about making people feel bad, but realizing that your audience, your list, there are things that they feel insecure about in their own lives. So, like, if you said, the real reason nobody opens your emails, Rob, or this is the real reason no one opens your emails, and you would say, If this is true, now it’s not true for you. But you say, yeah, I think my emails aren’t getting opened like they should. And so internally, you have that insecurity. But also, there’s an offer of solution or a resolution inside. I’m going to go get relief from this insecurity. So to use that occasionally to point out, make people check in with themselves, I am coming up short in that area. Because it’s personally relevant to you, it’s hard to ignore that. If it’s important and it’s relevant, like, yeah, well, I really do need to know why people aren’t opening my emails. And then you open that email so you can find out what the real reason is. So again, this is something that you wouldn’t use all the time. And we’re not trying to make people feel bad. But we realize it. your audience has things that they feel bad about. Because they just want to be better. We all want to be better in areas of our lives. 

I remember seeing one, I didn’t write this, but it was like, it was something like, four signs your wife hates you. And, you know, if you’re married, if you’re not married, you’re on the wrong list. But if you’re married, and your spouse has been acting a little funny lately, and you think it’s probably your fault. just that flash of insecurity in your own mind, maybe she is starting to think about leaving me. And you gotta open the email to find out how I can identify if this is really where I’m at and how can I fix that. So insecurity is another one. 

Again, don’t use it all the time, but occasionally, it’s, you know, pleasure, pain, the variety of emotions. is a great way of keeping people engaged and making sure that they never feel like I can ignore this email. I can safely ignore what this email is going to contain because I believe I already know it. We don’t want them to feel that way. So that’s just a couple of examples.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think I’m sort of thinking through these. To me, the piece that draws it all together is there’s really a test that every time we write a subject line that we should be asking or putting our subject line through, and the question is, does it make me ask what’s next? Or some variation of, I need to know more, click to open. And as you’re talking, I click over to my inbox, and I’m seeing a whole lot of subject lines that I actually don’t really need to know anything more than what’s there. I won’t say who the sender is, but here’s one: the time is now. Yeah, that, you know, I can’t imagine somebody thinking, I’ve got to click on that and find out, well, what does that even mean? It doesn’t have the hook to get me to say, okay, the time is now for what, right? And so it feels like there’s something missing.

Donnie Bryant: I think I was walking downtown in Chicago, I’m in Chicago. And there was a sign that said free, all it said was free. Somebody’s trying to sell something and free is a cool appeal like you said if there’s a hook but if you’re giving away free vasectomies I’m not ready for that just yet. I’m not ready for that yet. Actually, now maybe I am.

Rob Marsh: If you’re a woman, half of the audience isn’t ready for that ever, right? Or maybe they are for their partner. So that’s maybe not entirely true. But yeah, I can see the problem there for sure.

Donnie Bryant: If you said free chocolate, now 90% of people are interested in at least finding out what kind of free chocolate you got there. So just like you said, it’s time. And actually, I remember seeing one. I won’t say who it was either. And I think the subject line was: it’s time. The body of the email said, don’t you agree? Click here. This is a very smart marketer. And maybe he got great clicks. I don’t know. But my thought was, I have no idea what you’re talking about. And you haven’t given me a reason to click. How can I agree? I don’t know what you’re saying. You know how curiosity works. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but people cannot ignore when curiosity is sparked in their mind. I remember reading a study, a clinical study, where people were given the option, I could talk all day and I won’t, but given the option, they were shown a magic trick. And you could wait five minutes and I’ll tell you, it’s not exactly correct, but it’s something like you can wait five minutes and I’ll tell you what the secret was. I’ll tell you now, but you got to accept an electrical shock.” And a surprising number of people said, yeah, shock me, I want to know now.

Rob Marsh: There’s a similar study where they put people, subjects into a room with pens that would shock you if you click them. Some of the pens are marked with a green sticker, they’re safe. Some of the pens are marked with a red sticker, they’re definitely going to shock you. And some of them are marked with a yellow sticker and you don’t know if they’re safe or not. And subjects are just left with the pens on the table while the experimenter is like, I’ll be back in a few minutes. And they watch and people click the yellow pens, because they can’t stand not knowing if it’s going to shock them or not. There’s no positive payoff here. All of the risk is this thing is going to shock me or it’s not and because they’ve got to know they still click. It’s amazing to me how well that works. And this is probably something that all of us as copywriters need to work on, but how do we dial up that curiosity muscle so that we can get people interested in our stuff?

Donnie Bryant: I’m glad you said that because it is a muscle. And I think We develop it over time by practice, by testing our own, you know, when you’re sending something out, test and see what seems to work. But also, you know who’s great at creating curiosity? Comedians. If you listen to comedians, how do they set up the joke? How do they bring you to the edge of the punchline? And you’ve got to know, if they started choking and didn’t finish, you wouldn’t be able to sleep at night. How do they do that? And so as we study our craft, but also I think you can study comedians and things like that, how do they generate curiosity? Because the human mind works the same across all these planes. And comedy has a lot to teach us as communicators. And so, yeah, that’s a muscle that we have to develop and we should intentionally be working on that. And I think curiosity is just great for conversation too. You know, you want to be a good comment analyst. Figure out how to keep people curious so they don’t tune out. They don’t pick up their phone and start, you know, scrolling for something. That means you’re boring them.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. You know, as you talk about this, some of the stuff that I love reading. So magicians have the same issue as comedians, right? Like you’ve got to take people through this trick. There are actually books about how do you develop the patter of a magic show. And it talks about building the ebb and flow of how you catch people’s attention. And magicians in some ways have to do it even more because while they’re talking, they’re directing your attention one way so that they can pull off the trick by doing things other ways. And so this is maybe like a high level persuasion secret. But check out some of the books about how you put together, not just how you do magic, but how you put together an act. Yeah, because that is really, you know, there’s some really high level stuff there.

Donnie Bryant: 100%. And I couldn’t agree more. I have Derren Brown on my bookshelf. Derren Brown. There’s a couple others up there. Now we spoiled it. Now everyone will have our secret advantage. But it’s a great point—comedians and magicians. I also think, great musicians also, you know, the way that they build anticipation, storytellers, all these things are we can use to build the muscle, like as you described it of how do I build and maintain curiosity across, you know, 100 200 300 500 10,000 words.

Rob Marsh: So what else should I be asking about email? What are some of the other things that we need to be doing better as writers so that we’re delivering for our clients or even on our own lists and getting people to open, to engage, possibly to purchase if whatever we have to offer them will help?

Donnie Bryant: I’ll tell you something that’s interesting, and I cover it in the book. I haven’t dialed in the science part of this, but there’s unmistakable, that’s the right word, unmistakable correlation between subject line and sales in a way that most people don’t understand or appreciate, even notice. Some of your listeners will, but I’ve seen examples where across an A, B split test of emails, where the subject line is the only variable. So the body of the email is the same. Landing page or sales page is the same. Buy page is the same. Send time is the same. The audience, big audience, so it’s statistically significant numbers. Everything is split in the middle. We don’t have any reason to think there’s a distinct difference between the two. And the subject line is the only thing being different. And one subject line almost tripled the sales. I’m talking about sales. Even though I think the open rate was a little lower. The click rate was—I can’t remember what the click rate was. It’s in the book. And the sales were essentially triple. The subject line sets the tone for everything that happens afterwards. The subject line gets people curious or gets them, I’ll just open this and see what happens, see what it is. It gets them into an empowered mood or frame of mind or puts them into a place of fear. 

And fear is useful if you use it right. It’s one of the 11 secrets in the book. It’s not a secret, but one of the 11 methods. But if you put someone in a place of disempowerment, they don’t buy. They freak. And we don’t want that. And it carries through. You would think, once the open happens, people are basically in the same place. It’s not true. Also, you would think, once people click from the email to the sales page, most people are in the same place. But it’s not necessarily true. People can still be, I’m in a different frame of mind clicking through. And we can prove it from the math. When you go back and look at your own campaigns, your clients’ campaigns, you’ll see it. Where you do A-B split tests of subject lines, conversion rate, final conversion rate to order is different. So it can be different, and wildly so. And so I don’t know how to. tell you exactly how to manipulate that, or to exist through that. 

But what I do advise is for you to pay attention to your tests, pay attention to how your list responds to different things, and be intentional about how you test different appeals. And watch the numbers, and you will see we always have to be testing, and always have to analyze what’s happening. Because the thing that matters in the end is how many people purchase the thing that we’re trying to sell. Or if we’re just pushing people to content, how many people click to consume the content? And the subject line absolutely impacts whatever the final action that you want them to take is. So we just have to look and try to adjust as we go. What is the optimal presentation that we can make, starting in the subject line, that makes people want to consume in the right frame of mind to take the action that will help them and help us to accomplish our goals?

Rob Marsh: Yeah, you’ve given me a lot to think about as we email our list almost daily. Obviously, we’ve got a lot of email copywriters who listen to the podcast and do the work. So there’s a lot of really good stuff here. So Donnie, let’s say somebody’s been listening, like, OK, I’ve got to get my hands on Donnie’s book. Where do they go? And where do they go to get on your list as well?

Donnie Bryant: OK. Well, the book is that if you go to subjectlinescience.com, no hyphens or anything, just subject line science. It’ll take you to Amazon where you can buy the Kindle version or a paperback. 

Sometimes, depending on the day, I’m ahead of Dan Kennedy’s books, which he’s probably sold way more in life. But on Kindle on any given day, sometimes I’m hanging out with him. I could see Alex Hormozy from where I was yesterday. I could see him. I was like, in one category, I was like number 12. Anyway, that sounds braggadocious. I’m having fun and I’m enjoying this. I’m not editing that out at all.

Rob Marsh: I think that’s a good place to be. I hope whatever book I end up writing next is up there as well.

Donnie Bryant: I wrote the book in three weeks. From the first word in the Google doc to the designer making the version that’s Kindle and Amazon ready. Three weeks. You’ve got it in you, too. You’re just sitting there and committing to doing it. Actually, it was my mastermind. I said, I can write that book in, I said, two weeks. And they said, prove it. Go ahead and prove it. Oh, okay. I got two weeks now. It took me three. Sometimes we get in our own way. But the book is on Amazon, subjectlinescience.com. If you go to my website, which is donnie-bryant.com, you can sign up for my list. There’s not much on the website. It looks like a blog. It basically is a blog, but you can sign up for my email list there.

Rob Marsh: And I see you on LinkedIn quite a bit, sharing content there. I was going to ask about how you’re promoting yourself today, but I see you doing that there. And if we had more time, we could go maybe more deeply into your thoughts there. But what you shared about email, I think, has been, at least for me, a good reminder of how much more thought needs to be going into things like, where are my readers right now, belief wise? And how do we get them to where we need them to go, whether that’s in today’s email, or, you know, a month from now? Yeah, it’s a lot of good stuff to think about.

Donnie Bryant: Yeah, well, I hope I get excited and kind of go off on tangents. I hope there was there was some pull outable nuggets.

Rob Marsh: There’s definitely some gold there for me. So thanks, Donnie, for for sharing so much about your business.

Donnie Bryant: My pleasure. I appreciate the opportunity.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Donnie Bryant. I want to emphasize just two things that we talked about through this entire interview. And I think it’s probably worth going back and really listening to how Donnie was thinking through a specific campaign, the messaging, the questions that he’s asking, because as he was reviewing that copy, as we were talking through, you could kind of see how the thinking happens. where the reader has a particular belief and we know that we need to move them to a different belief and sort of seeing him step through that. The way that Donnie broke down the behaviors that you’re looking for as a writer or as a marketer when it comes to email, I think it was a bit of a masterclass in email strategy. And if you combine what he shared with our interview a couple of weeks ago with Eman Ismail and even last week with Daniel Throssell, you are going to be in a much better position to call yourself an email strategist as you hunt for the clients who need help with their emails. But aside from thinking about the beliefs that your reader has and how you need to shift those beliefs over the course of a campaign, understanding the actual behaviors they’re taking is also important. 

And I really liked that Donnie mentioned this stuff. Early on, those first one to four emails, you’re trying to get the click. It really is all about curiosity. You may not be selling a whole lot. You may not even mention a lot of detail about the program because you just want them to click to that sales page. And like Donnie said, this is assuming that the sales page is dialed in and it’s really good. Later on, if they haven’t clicked, they’re probably not going to click, certainly not based off of the curiosity. And so it requires a little bit of shift in strategy again. In fact, you might even move those non-clickers to a different campaign to see if you can get them interested in something else. 

And if they did click, but they didn’t buy, they’ve obviously shown some interest, but they need something else to get them to the point where they are ready to buy, whether that’s a shift in an additional belief, whether that’s a reason to act now, any of that. And so those next several emails are all about providing that kind of information so that you are doing that. belief shifting and creating reasons for them to act now. And then finally, the last few emails are all about getting them off the couch. If they’ve clicked through the sales page more than once, you know they’re interested. They just need that reason to act now. So you’re focused on urgency and thinking through where those different behaviors happen in your sequence is an important part of strategizing the messaging for your email sequence. 

What matters in email—we talked a little bit about this, the sender name and the trust that you build as a sender. There’s a famous email case study that talks about how effective the one word subject line, hey, was for the Obama campaign way back when he was running for president. Lots of people saw that and they saw the open rates that were going on with that particular email and the donations that came from that particular subject line. And they talked about how this personal message, this hey, and it was just three letters, H-E-Y, coming from Barack Obama directly. was the kind of thing that we should be doing with all of our emails. But the thing is, the magic wasn’t necessarily in the word, hey, it was the fact that the sender was Barack Obama. And for the people who signed up to be on his list, there’s a really high level of trust already. So when that subject line hit their inboxes, it felt like a personal communication from President Obama. It wasn’t necessarily the subject line itself. It was the combination of those two things. 

If you try using, hey yourself, you know, in the subject line of say, an email that you’re sending, or if you saw that subject line in an email that you got, maybe it was the third email you got today from The Gap, and it just says, hey, it’s not gonna hit the same. Or if you’re getting it from Chase Bank or somewhere else, it’s not gonna be the same because you don’t have the same level of trust and belief in those senders. So sender trust matters a lot. 

Think about who opens up the emails you send or whose emails that you open up without fail. That list probably includes your mom and your dad. If you’ve got a good relationship with them, you’re always going to open up what they send. It probably includes your siblings, your best friend, probably your boss. These are people that you either trust or you have a close relationship with for some reason. And it’s less about the subject line or even the content of the email. It’s just, you know, that this person that you have this relationship with is sending you something. So you’re going to open it and check it out. That’s the goal. That’s the relationship that you want to build with everyone that you’re mailing on your list. And if you’re doing it for your clients, that’s the goal that you’re helping them with. You want them to build that exact relationship with the people on their list. 

Okay. This is probably enough for today. Thanks again to Donnie Bryant for joining us to talk about his business, emails, subject lines, and more. Be sure to check out his book at subjectlinescience.com. I have it on good authority that our friend Parris Lampropoulos said it was a great book, and Parris would know. He’s widely regarded as one of the most successful, maybe even the best copywriter who’s actually writing copy today. You can find Donnie also at his website, donnie-bryant.com. And like I mentioned, he’s on LinkedIn quite a bit. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. If you enjoyed this interview, please share it with a friend or an associate, another copywriter or content writer who won’t just enjoy it, might actually learn from it. You can always leave us a review if you’re impressed with what was shared. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we love to see them show up at Apple Podcasts. 

 

Someone’s got to be the best. And at least a few people believe that Daniel Throssell is Australia’s best copywriter—even if only because Daniel told them he was : ). In the 394th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob brought Daniel into the studio to talk about his email strategy, world building, and how he turned a children’s book into Australia’s best selling book. And Daniel got real when it comes to what a day in his life really looks like. This is the second time, Daniel has been on the podcast (the first episode is here). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript of today’s appearance on the show.

Stuff to check out:

Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks
Tough Titties by Laura Belgray
A great book (Dark Matter) by Blake Crouch
Master and Commander by Aubrey Maturin
Stop Reading the News by Rolf Dobelli
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Daniel’s Website

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  If you’re going to say you’re the best at something, eventually you’re going to have to back it up. The late Gary Halbert once sent out a newsletter titled “why I am the best copywriter alive”. Of course, any one can make a claim like that. But eventually you have to back it up… and at least when it comes to Gary, he had the clients, the sales, and the results to make a pretty strong claim on the title. Which brings me to the guy that many people call Australia’s best copywriter.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter Daniel Throssell, who has been called Australia’s best copywriter by many in the marketing world. But does he have the chops to back it up? Indeed he does. We covered a lot of ground in this interview—we went really deep on his approach to email, which in many ways he treats as if he’s writing a novel. He also shared a few of the details about his strategy for pushing several books to #1 on the best seller list, a strategy by the way that works for all kinds of products, not just books. And Daniel got real when he talked about what a typical day looks like for him. We think you’re going to like this one.

But before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May.  Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now.

We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that today’s guest Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. You’re going to hear a little bit about it in this episode, but Daniel only scratches the surface here. Because the only other time he’s shared his strategy was with his paying subscribers and he wants to make sure to honor them by not sharing it elsewhere. However, he has made one exception. He’s sharing it for a limited time with the paying subscribers of The Copywriter Underground for just a few days in the month of May. If you want to learn more about the strategy he teases on this episode, jump into the underground today so we can share the details of how to get your hands on the whole thing with you.

There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Daniel.

Kira Hug: All right. Welcome, Daniel. I want to kick off with a question about the last year in business. So we can zero in on the last six months, last year, but I’m curious, what has surprised you the most about your business in particular over the last year or so?

Daniel Throssell: Wow, that question kind of hit me. That’s the most surprising. I was not ready to answer that. The last six months.

Kira Hug: I don’t think I’ve ever asked that.

Daniel Throssell: So yeah, I wasn’t even expecting that as the first question. I thought it was gonna be like, Daniel, nice to nice to finally get on the podcast with you. 

So okay, last six months, what’s happened? Honestly, what has surprised me? I don’t know how relevant this is going to be to people. But I’ll just be honest—how well my monthly subscription has gone. I don’t follow a lot of news, but I’ve heard people saying, you know, bad economy, whatever. People are not spending as much. I literally have a zero news policy. I don’t watch anything. There was an eclipse, not the one you saw, Kira, recently. There was one last year and the eclipse went over Perth and I didn’t know everyone in Perth knew and I was sitting in my house and I was like, Why is everybody outside looking at the sky? The sun’s dying. Well, no, no. I was alone. There was no one there. And I was like, I think the sun’s dying. Because I’ve just been listening to some sci-fi Audible books. I was like, maybe this is like Project Hail Mary. This is really bad. What’s going on? Because the sun just went dark. It wasn’t a circle. And so that’s the only thing that has been a negative out of my no-news policy. Otherwise, I’m a happier person. But the point is, I just don’t know. 

I have heard people saying the economy is no good, whatever. I have personally found that my business has done really well the last six months and again, I don’t know how relevant this is to your people but, it does make me think there’s a lot of people who get really caught up in listening to what other people say about the economy or no one’s hiring no one’s buying, people are being more conservative with their purchases or whatever. 

All I know is that by keeping my head out of that and just focusing on what I’m doing each day, which is nurturing my list, working on good products and selling them as best I can, I have not seen any big hits. And supposedly, as copywriters, we should be really exposed to that sort of thing because we’re intimately connected with the selling of stuff. So if people aren’t buying stuff, they don’t need sales copy. And my market is entirely copywriters. 

So that’s been the biggest takeaway for me for the last six months. I’m just not noticing whatever other people are saying about an economy being bad. If you just keep your head down and focus on what you’re doing, it seems to work out really well. Now, I don’t know if that is just going to come off as like, you’re so insensitive, because everyone’s losing their jobs. I’m just being honest. I got hit with this question out of the blue first on the podcast. So I hope that was insightful.

Rob Marsh: Fair answer. The last time that you were on the podcast, I think it was 2020, just coming into the pandemic, if I remember right. Well, I should have looked it up before we started recording, but I feel like it was spring of 2020. And so maybe in case somebody hasn’t gone back and listened to the entire back catalog or heard our previous interview with you, Daniel, maybe just break down really quickly what your business looks like and exactly what you’re doing. Those who know you are probably going to know you do a daily email. You’re widely known as the self-proclaimed Australia’s best copywriter, although there are a few people who seem to agree with you. But yeah, tell us what your business looks like.

Daniel Throssell: Yeah, so like my business model, what I’m doing.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, or just the pieces of what’s going on.

Daniel Throssell: Well, just a quick backstory kind of thing. I was a freelance copywriter for several years. I started copywriting in 2016. And so I worked for a long time freelancing first, and then I worked with an author called Scott Pape for several years. I was kind of the right hand man in his business from maybe 2016, 17-ish until he shut down his newsletter in 2020, I think. So, after 2020 is when I started building my own brand. Before that, I’d never really done anything for myself. 

And so, I think you had me on shortly after that, maybe a year after I started. It might have been 2021, I think, Rob. And so, I just started building my own brand, which is just kind of teaching the things I had learned And that’s mostly what my business is now. Like I don’t do any client work anymore. I create copywriting training and sell it. So I write a daily email. I’m very inspired by Ben Settle and what he did. He was a huge influence on me. So his business model, I’ve taken a lot of that and applied it to myself. So it basically revolves around publishing a monthly newsletter, selling courses, and I sell them with a daily email to an email list. It’s a very simple business model, but it’s very fun, very effective for me.

Kira Hug: Okay, so you mentioned building your brand. And I think when you were on the show last, you were building it, you were becoming well known. And since then, you’ve become a bigger name in the copywriting space for sure. So when you look back, are there certain ingredients that you think have helped you build that brand that you’d recommend to other writers?

Daniel Throssell: Well, one of the biggest things I’ve done—and you know, it’s just a very unpopular message. I talk about it all the time, but I’ve just continued to write that email every single day. I have written something new to my email list and I did it from very early on when no one was watching. No one was paying attention. I had like 40 people on my list that had opted in for some old lead magnet and I was, it was like a dead list. 

I am a big believer that you know if you are putting the work out there if you’re doing well nothing can happen if you’re not doing anything so number one is, I have consistently showed up even when I didn’t feel like it to create create stuff. And that’s, that’s probably number one, because a lot of people who are asking this question, they’re just not doing much to actually promote themselves. You know, they’ll write an email once a week, or they’ll write some content once a week, but it’s just not enough what they’re doing. It’s also got to be really good. I don’t want to say you got to spam stuff. Cause I also put my heart into making everything really good. So the foundational pillar was doing enough work to actually get noticed.

And I’ve also, it’s not really everyone’s cup of tea, but I have aggressively pursued, how should we put it? A self-aggrandizement strategy—self-promotional. And I’ve really embraced playing that character, if you will. In person, I’m not really outspoken. I’m actually very shy and conflict-averse, you know. So people who know me in real life are often shocked when they read some of the stuff I write. And frankly, I am too sometimes. But it’s like this persona that I put on. I was like, I am not interesting enough to have people talking about me on the internet. And if I want to build a really well-known brand that people talk about, I got to be more interesting than I am in real life. And so there’s this sort of persona that I’ve had which you alluded to Rob, very, um, boastful. You know, even talking about my persona is kind of awkward for me because it’s like, he’s just a different guy—very obnoxious, very cheeky, takes shots at people all the time. And what I found is there’s a lot of people in the copywriting industry who really take themselves very seriously or don’t really have a sense of humor. 

Over the years, over and over again, people have gotten really wound up by me. It’s like, this guy calls himself “Australia’s best copywriter”. Who does he think he is? Whatever. And, you know, they’ll get mad about it. They’ll talk about me. And part of me finds it really funny. I think this is fun. I don’t know why you guys are so mad about it, because it’s funny to me that you’re talking about it. I’ve used that to get people talking about me. And I’ve done really, really well in a series of affiliate promotions over the years against some other copywriters, placing first on the leaderboard. In person, I probably wouldn’t talk about that. But, you know, in my emails, I’m like, I’m the best copywriter in the world sort of thing. It is tongue in cheek, but it also people like that energy, people like that obnoxiousness. And I think that’s another big thing that I’ve done. 

I’ve been creating content so there’s something for people to actually look at. And I’ve also had this persona that’s had people wanting to talk about me. And I think if I had a third pillar in there, it’s that I have tried to come up with new ideas that are worth talking about. And in fact, the first thing that you guys had me on the podcast for was that parallel welcome sequence that I came up with, which is kind of a creative new way to do welcome sequences. And so I’ve come up with things like that, ideas or techniques that are actually worth talking about or interesting. And things like that have opened the door to me. It’s how I got on your podcast. Rich Sheffrin had me on Steal Our Winners to talk about it. So there are things like that. 

And I guess if I could put those three things altogether, it has made it harder than not. That doesn’t even make sense. It’s made it harder for me to not grow a brand than to grow a brand. Because when you’re doing interesting things, you’re coming up with genuinely interesting ideas, you’re constantly creating new content, and you have a very interesting personality. It’s hard for people not to talk about you and be like, oh, go and check out so-and-so. 

Honestly, most of the growth that I’ve had over the last, especially two years, I think, I have really dialed back on any kind of promotional strategy. I’m not even really advertising or anything aside from one little arrangement I have with one guy’s website. It’s almost all referral and word of mouth. So even this, this is the first podcast I’ve done in probably a year. I just don’t really do that sort of stuff because at this point people talk about you organically. And I think it was those three things, putting them together helped get to the point where I am now, where I sort of can step back from that a little bit and just kind of focus on the work I’m doing, the emails and the newsletters I’m publishing.

Rob Marsh: So Daniel, you mentioned you’ve modeled your business a little bit off of what Ben Settle built. I can totally see the influence. You seem to be a “nice” version of Ben. Although I will say this, in credit to Ben, I think the Ben of today is a lot nicer than the Ben of three or four years ago. He’s kind of mellowed out. I think probably because he has a kid now. You know, family. But let’s talk a little bit about world-building because obviously that’s something that Ben does. That’s something that you’ve done with your emails. When you pick up a Daniel Throssell email, you’re sort of stepping into, or maybe the better way to say this is, I’m stepping out of reality and into whatever it is that you’re building. Sometimes you’re writing question and answer type emails, which are kind of fun. You oftentimes will use, insert first name, list merge techniques to make fun of your readers, which I know sometimes doesn’t go over very well. You already talked about self-aggrandizement but all of this stuff kind of plays together to create something that’s really unique or pretty rare. There’s three or four copywriters. I can think who do it and you’re one of them.

Daniel Throssell: So you mean what’s going on with the email strategy?

Rob Marsh: Yeah, if somebody has been reading your emails and they see this world-building and they think I want to replicate it, but obviously they don’t want to copy—how do you build your own world? 

Daniel Throssell: Yeah, that’s definitely a Ben thing. I think world building is sort of his concept. And I’ve been influenced by Ben for sure, but a lot of what I’m doing actually came from my work with Scott. So I mentioned that I’d worked with Scott Pape, the author, also known as the Barefoot Investor. I’ve helped him with his book launches, which I think we’re going to talk about. 

One of the things he has done very, very successfully for a long time is to create his, if you want to use the terminology, because I hadn’t heard it at the time, world building, where he would use people in his life as characters in his emails and columns and stories. And one of the best pieces of advice I ever got from him, and this was probably before I’d even heard of Ben, was make characters of the people in your life. It’s what he does, and it’s what I’ve done from day one, really. I have recurring characters or themes that come up in my emails, and I want people to have “a sitcom style” email marketing. I want people to have the same experience when they’re reading my emails that they do when they’re watching an episode of Friends or something. Because there, what you have is the continuity of these characters that you know, and these settings that you know. And what’s interesting is seeing how those people interact and you get this payoff from in-jokes that were set up a long time ago. The longer back the joke was set up, the funnier it is to you. So I will have things like that. 

For example, I have a recurring gag that my wife is the bad idea zombie. And that’s just a name that I came up with for her a long time ago, because she always gives me these terrible ideas. So it’s a recurring gag. And when it comes up, the longer you’ve been on my list, the more satisfying that joke is, because you get it. And someone who’s new to the list isn’t going to get it as much. 

So in a way, you create this thing where the deeper people get into the world of your stories and so on, the more rewarding it is for them to see those things. And so what I have done from the beginning is to take characters and things from my life and themes and have them repeating. So my wife, my kids will always come up. I try to make sure to introduce people like my brothers and so on who are regularly in my life and make them recur with enough familiarity that people start to get to know them. So you have that sitcom effect. 

So the first part of the answer, Rob, when someone’s saying, how do I do something like that is—you’re never going to have the same world as someone else because your life is unique. Your people. Your characters and so on are going to be unique to you. One of the big problems I have seen especially with students of mine in the past when I’ve looked at their emails is they took what I was doing but they wrote their characters the same way as I wrote mine and especially my projection of myself in my characters. I have a caricatured version of myself in emails and I’m not talking about the arrogant jerk guy, I’m talking about when I tell stories about my daily life. It’s meant to be a representation of me in real life. There’s a certain way i portray myself and often it’s kind of hapless and chaos is going on around me like i’m at subway ordering a sub and I ask for a tiny bit of chili sauce and the girl’s like slathering it on and I’m like too nervous to say please stop and I’m like you’re just killing my dinner here lady. It’s just this certain characterization of myself and one of the big mistakes I’ve seen when people are trying to use the same kind of storytelling is they’ll characterize themselves the same way as I characterize myself. They’ll use the same kind of humor, they’ll have the same quirks, and they’re not really making their own character. So that’s an issue that if people are going to be inspired by what I’m doing, you can take the style, but don’t copy the characters and their personalities as well. That’s one big issue. 

Now, the sitcom style storytelling is kind of one half, I guess, of what I’m doing in the e-mail, Rob, because I also have this thing—and I think this one is, as far as I can tell, it’s unique to me—I’ve never seen anyone doing it, but it’s that I blend half of that with, with fiction. And so in the welcome sequence, the parallel welcome sequence, which we talked about on the first podcast, I set up this parallel universe, if you will, where it’s fictional and it’s like this island and I call it copy land. And it’s part of my world building that it’s this fictional place where there’s like giant copywriting themed monsters. And all my products are weapons in this world. And I actually have—I think I showed you Rob—I’ve got a mobile app that integrates with my business. And I got my designer to design it like Pokemon, because I flippin love Pokemon. You can probably see all the Pokemon on the wall behind me. I was like, I want this inspired by Pokemon. And so it’s meant to feel like that. And so half the time I will—not half the time, but often—I will also tell these fictional stories. I’ll take real emails I got and I was like, I was in my evil lab on Copyland and I got this request. And then suddenly sirens were blaring around the island because there’s this customer service request. And I’ll write this really tongue in cheek, fictional thing. 

What is kind of strange I guess you could say about this is I have these two worlds. One’s like real life and one is fiction and I freely blend them. Sometimes I will start telling a story from real life and then I’ll cross into fiction. I will just start writing wild fiction like things explode or you know a plane crashes in my front room or a ninja comes in. I don’t know… some giant copywriting robots invade the scene. And it’s really, really fun for people. And I think, again, you can do that, you can have fiction, but make it your own style of fiction. 

And the the error that people are going to make if they’re trying to copy that—I don’t mind if you want to do it, if you want to say, I want to do what Daniel does, and I want to blend fiction with my real life—but just make the fiction your own. Make the characters, make the style, everything should be unique to the way you write. And if you do that, you can build something for yourself. It was my idea to sort of do that in the first place, but there will probably be a way to integrate that with your own personality, your own world, your own storytelling style, where you could build something interesting for yourself. 

It’s not for everybody because it is quite silly. And one of the things I’ve done is embrace that. Before I started doing this, like I said, copywriting was really, really serious. A lot of people were really serious about it. And I was like, I’m just going to make this really fun. I’m going to have silly stories, giant monsters, weird stuff. And some people are going to say, this is so dumb. And some people are just going to say, I love this so much. And they’re my people. And that’s kind of how I’ve looked at building that world, if you will.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I think we’ve written a couple of emails where Rob and I are fighting. And I think there was one, Rob, where I tied you up and put masking tape on you and strapped you to a chair.

Rob Marsh: When you say we’ve written them, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have a say. Let’s be honest.

Kira Hug: Right. That’s right. That’s why it’s fun. Yeah. So I definitely, I’m with you. I love the idea. And I think that we can have so much more fun. And even recently, I feel like I’ve moved away from that. And it’s just like all very truthful. It’s like, this is what happened. These are the details of my day. And it’s almost like we forget, because there’s so much beauty in the truth, but we forget that we can also pull fiction in and have more fun with it.

Question is, how could someone listening who maybe isn’t familiar with your work, integrate characters like just the basics… is that we start with our partner if we have a partner and we’re like that’s character one and then character two is a parent or uncle what are some basics? 

Daniel Throssell: Well that’s how I started so for me in the beginning it was my wife and honestly with one character you can do a lot and a mistake a lot of people make will be to try and set up too many characters too soon and what’s a lot of the characters I have introduced have been, they were kind of there by chance once. 

For example, there was a guy at my supermarket who worked behind the deli counter. And every time I would order some meat from him, he would just do this weird passive aggressive shtick where he’d be like, I’ll think about it. And I was like, bro, just give me my meat, man. I just don’t want this. And I wrote about it to my email list. I wrote a little story about it. And it really resonated with people. And so I’m going to write about him again. And I went there the next week. And he did something similar. And I tried something else. And I wrote about it. And he became this character called Rude Deli Guy. And I ended up riffing on him a lot. So that wasn’t planned, necessarily. Sometimes there would be just guest characters, if you will, And I’m like, oh, that worked out really well. Or I might introduce someone. And I won’t even think about them. And then like a year later, I’ll do a little callback to them. And people who saw the original email, I remember that guy. So it doesn’t have to be this big plan. And I think honestly, if you try too hard to do that, you’ll go wrong. Because what I started with was just using my wife and then occasional little scenes from my kids. And that’s like one main side character and a few little guest characters. And over the years, as people have recurred, they start to build up. But it’s not like every email has everybody. Honestly, some of these people, they come up like once every few months. 

So I’m not trying too hard and I think that’s a mistake some people make is that they are trying too hard to jam all these people and all these scenes and it’s like you will understand my world. It’s like just back off and make it a lot more organic. And it’s really about just telling stories that have other people in them. 

The biggest thing for me is, and one of the biggest keys is using dialogue. If you can actually show someone a scene that has two or more people talking in it, it’s so much more engaging. than just writing as yourself. And so that to me, that’s the gold standard. I don’t always have the energy to do it because I’m writing an email every day. And honestly, it’s hard to find a scene every single day that you can make super funny or interesting or that’s worth talking about. But I try and do it as much as possible because people love it. People love seeing dialogue in emails. It’s just one of my favorite things to do in email and that organically builds characters. So you don’t have to sit there and think about, what does this character do? What is their personality like? You just put dialogue in. What are they saying? Because that’s how we see, that’s how we perceive things in a sitcom. We just see what they’re saying and what they’re doing. So it’s just kind of, that’s my storytelling style, I guess. I try and put a lot of dialogue and a lot of visual storytelling. 

I will show often what characters are doing. They put their hands on their hips. you know, they’re leaning on the door, whatever it is, you can see it. I learned that from a guy called Matthew Dicks. I don’t know if you know of him. He’s written the book Storyworthy. That book was a really big influence on my storytelling. I got a lot from him. And one of his things was, you always want people to be seeing the story as you’re telling it in their mind. You don’t want to have the equivalent of a movie where there’s a black screen and dialogue voiceover. Always have something they can see. And so that kind of infused itself into my email writing style. And to answer your question, Kira, that organically builds the characters. When you’re just showing what people said and what they did, it automatically builds them up without you having to tell them.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, if anybody wants to see how this works in real life, they should sign up for Daniel’s email, which we will promote at the end of the episode. So stick around because it’ll be worth getting to. But I want to shift gears here a little bit, Daniel, and talk about the thing that you and I have talked about several times offline. And you teased just a moment ago, and that is the promotion strategy that you use to get Scott’s book to the number one bestseller spot, at least for a while. And just to set it up, I know you’ve only shared it with your own list, and so you don’t talk about this. So when we said, hey, let’s come back on the podcast, I’m like, okay, but I want some of these details that you don’t talk about anywhere else. So let’s spill the tea.

Daniel Throssell: Right, so I’ll give you a bit of backstory so people have the context on what happened. So I mentioned I’d been working with Scott Pape from around 2016. The very first thing he hired me for, he was like, I’m actually launching a book and I need someone to help write the copy. And so that was the first job I did and neither of us knew at the time. So I actually came on to write a little launch funnel for this book, which went on to become the best-selling Australian book of all time. It was called The Barefoot Investor. Following on from that, a couple of years later, I helped him with the writing and editing process of a new book, and we launched that one. It also became a number one bestseller nationally, and that was called Barefoot Investor for Families. But the one that we’re talking about now was his third book. It’s called Barefoot Kids, and we launched that in 2022, I think. And that became, I think it might, I haven’t checked, but at the time it had the record for the biggest pre-launch in Australian publishing history. We sold 120,000 copies in the launch, which was bigger than anything that had ever been done in Australia. 

So that’s what you were like, oh, can you come on and talk about that? And so there are a few big ideas to the launch that kind of made it work. And as a bit of backstory, in 2022, Scott actually flew me to Melbourne and we were planning the launch. And one of the things that I actually did, I actually pulled up while we were in this meeting room in the heart of Melbourne, I pulled up these notes from a course that I actually sell to my email list. which was built on how I do affiliate promotions and how I’ve been really successful at them. And so the first thing that we decided was that we were going to try and base the launch around an email list. So in your traditional book launch, you kind of have all these parts like PR and book tours and deals with bookstores, book signings, podcasts, and so on. The author is spread very, very thin. And so one of the strategic decisions we made for this launch was we are going to primarily focus it around our email list. 

I mentioned that we’d done two launches before that and we hadn’t used emails to launch the book and that had been effective, but we hadn’t really gone all in on creating a promotion, especially the way that I had learned how to do on my own email list. And so that was the big thing is that an email list can really move the needle more than anything else if you do it the right way. Which kind of leads, do you have any, do you want me to just keep talking or are you going to jump in?

Rob Marsh: Yeah, keep going. And you’ve set the backstory. So let’s talk about what you did to make this happen.

Daniel Throssell: Yep. So one of our big ideas around this, I guess, was that the way that most people do their launches is backwards. And by that, I mean, they kind of write their book and they sort of, go into their shell, they don’t really say anything about it. And then they come out of the woodwork and they’re like, “hey, got a new book to buy, go buy it.” And they start, they do this long promotional period where they are trying to get people to buy for as long as possible and just keep pushing and pushing and pushing people to buy. And one thing that I had found in my experience, selling to an email list—and you’ll remember this, Rob—In 2021, there was this affiliate promotion on Black Friday that all these copywriters in the industry were doing. And it was a really, really big deal. And I ended up selling more than everyone else put together. And what I did was really weird because there was this 10-day cart open for that promotion, and everyone else promoted for 10 days, and I only promoted for four, and I made more sales than anyone else put together. 

And so one thing I had been finding over the years was that with these really tight launches, you could make more sales if you did them right than really extended one week, two week, longer cart open windows. And so what we did when I went to Melbourne, I was talking to Scott, I was like, I think we should do a really short launch. And we’re going to flip it on its head instead of not much beforehand and then a long push afterwards, we decided we are going to tease for a really, really long time. We’re going to talk about the book as much as possible and say, the book’s coming, the book’s coming. And I’m talking for months and months in advance. The book is coming. It’s going to be fantastic. And then we did a very, very limited launch window. I think it was three or four days. And the entire pre-launch, all those 120,000 copies were sold in those three or four days, compared to normal book launches, which are, they’re coming in over weeks to add up to that much. And a lot of people think if I close my cart, early, I’m going to miss out on a lot of sales. I get that logic, but it just did not prove to be true because we set the Australian publishing record with one of the shortest launch windows you’ve ever seen. 

My friend, Laura Belgray, when she was publishing her book, Tough Titties, and I gave her this advice, she was like, that’s completely opposite to anything the publisher has ever told me. You’re the first to ever tell me that, but she went and applied some of this stuff and she, I think she made it to the bestseller list too. So it worked really, really well to limit our cart open. As for what we, you’re probably asking like, well, what did you do in that, in that cart open window?

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Let me jump in and ask the question while you’re taking a drink of water. Daniel, what did you do during the cart open window?

Daniel Throssell: So the other thing, and I’m just going to backstory that one too, the other thing we realize is that most people don’t want to buy a book. And so the problem with most book launches is they’re selling a book. The thing is, only book buyers buy books. And it’s like, duh, that’s obvious. But think about it. Most of the people on your email list probably aren’t book readers. Like they’re not the kind of people who are like, I will buy that book and I will sit down and I will read it. There will be some, sure, but those people are going to buy no matter what you do. Most people don’t want to buy a book. And that’s the real problem you have with any book launch. 

So what we did, again, this was taken from principles of email marketing. It’s like, well, how do you sell products in an affiliate launch? How had I successfully done over the years? Well, you offer bonuses with the book. And the bonus should be something that people want even more than the book and actually targeted to the list, even if the book isn’t, so that people are actually buying for the bonus. So what we did in this short launch window is we actually came up with a bunch of targeted bonuses that were each individually more valuable to the list than the price of the book. And essentially, we weren’t selling the book so much as we were selling the bonuses, because we’re like, yeah, well, a small percentage of people on this list are going to want to buy a book that is for children about money. But they all are going to want this report on how to survive the coming crash, for example. And this was a financial list. That’s something that is appealing to a lot more people, even if they don’t want the book. And so we had a few bonuses like that. And our strategy was, these are only available for this three or four day launch. They’re never going to be offered again. and if you want this stuff, you have to buy during this launch window. 

And during that launch window, if you are doing this, you have to go really, really hard. You cannot just send one email or two emails. You have to push hard. And I say that, and even with Scott’s List, we actually canned a few of the emails. I think I can’t remember how many we sent. It was nowhere near what I would have done because I have sent like 5, 6, 7 emails on the last day of a promotion and I definitely would have put on my list, but his list was 500,000 people or something and he just did not want to get his account shut down. We just had like maybe four or five emails go out because we canned some that we’d written because the sales were coming in so fast. He was like, okay, I just don’t want to push it. We’ve already done really well. But you have to be aggressive about it. In this short window, you have to make sure people are opening their inbox and seeing you in there and seeing that there is a limited time offer. And by reframing it so that we weren’t actually selling the book, but we were actually selling the bonuses and doing it over a very short period of time, we ended up making more sales than anyone ever had when they were pre-launching a book with these week-long windows and bookstore interviews and signings and so on. 

It was just so effective to just go back to the principles of email marketing. As copywriters, we’ve kind of known about this stuff for a long time that it works, but authors don’t really know it. They don’t really know how to apply it. So all we did really was apply good email marketing principles to the launch. There was, you know, I did say this to you guys, there was other stuff that we did that like incentivizing the average order value. And there were certain ways that we wrote the copy on the sales page that we’re pushing to that I kind of don’t want to talk about because I had people buy this info from me. So out of respect to my customers, I don’t want to give it all away. But it was honestly a large part of it was reframing to this short launch window, focusing on an email list and reframing that we’re not selling a book, we are selling these bonuses. And that turned it kind of into an internet marketing launch, if you will, which was a really unusual thing for an author to do. And yet it worked really, really well.

Kira Hug: Amazing. Are you comfortable sharing some of the numbers from your subscription business as far as like, how many people are on your list and how many people are part of your subscription and paid community or just like rough numbers, rough?

Daniel Throssell: Yeah. Okay. Well, my list, I think it’s 12,000 active subscribers at the moment for the newsletter, and for my paid newsletter, I haven’t really talked about that publicly, so I don’t really want to give numbers away. It’s in the hundreds, I will say, but I just don’t really like talking about my revenue too much in public.

Kira Hug: I ask because I think there are a lot of copywriters, freelancers, creatives who would love to use this model in their own business or transition to this model and consider a subscription similar to yours, and pulling their own ideas into it, obviously. Do you have advice for them on what it really takes to make this model work? It’s obviously not as easy as it looks on the outside where it’s just writing an email and then you get paid subscribers. What does it take?

Daniel Throssell: Yeah, so are we talking about copywriters doing this for, you know, their lists or helping their clients set it up?

Kira Hug: The reason I asked… Yeah, they could help their clients. I was thinking more for their own business. This is a great model we could all use. We’re all writers.

Daniel Throssell: Sure. Okay. So the biggest thing is you have a lot, like a lot of people are teaching copywriting. So one of the hardest things in running a model like this, I will say, I see where your question was coming from now. So I’ll say the business is very profitable for me. Okay. So it does very well. I’m not worried about anything. So I think that was the intent of your question. I just get uncomfortable sharing numbers. It’s kind of like pyramid scheming to me. It’s like, look how much money I make selling training to you showing how much money I make. It’s like, come on. So I deliberately make a thing of not selling that way. I don’t talk, I say, yes, I do well, but I don’t really want to talk about numbers. But yeah, it’s good. It’s a good model. 

The biggest problem with it is it’s very, very hard to have something genuinely worth paying for month after month. And I’ve been doing this for 20 months and you know, I’m not feeling like I’m running out of ideas or anything, but I will say like, I hate my life the week before I’m publishing. Like it’s just, Oh my gosh. I’m like, why am I doing this? This sucks. I hate deadlines. And uh, no matter what I do, that happens every single month because you will have a lot of people get really, really excited about signing up for this thing. But to actually retain people is really, really hard. Because number one, they get bored of stuff, like they stop opening it. We’ve all bought stuff that we don’t open. And with a one-off course, you have enough of a dopamine hit that you can get them to buy it and not think about the fact that, wait, I have 17 other courses I haven’t finished. But when you have the same product, a newsletter that you are selling every month, It’s very, very hard to get away with that. 

I want my people to open the thing, but you cannot rely on someone just continuing to buy it month after month and not use it. They will get sick of it and they’ll be like, yeah, I’m not using this, I’m going to cancel. It’s really, really hard to come up with ideas. What I’d say is first, you have to be really confident in the value you are offering to people. You need to be really, really good at whatever it is you’re teaching so that you have ideas that other people can’t sell. And so that’s one of the big value props that I try make in my marketing. It’s like, these are ideas that you’re not going to find taught everywhere else because copywriting is such a competitive market because everyone you’re competing against is a copywriter. They’re supposed to know how to sell this stuff. And so a lot of people are jaded. They’re like, oh, well, I can learn this. It’s just the fundamentals that you got from some old copywriting books. And so I have to work really, really hard on saying, no, this is stuff that I’ve come up with that you’re not going to find elsewhere. So I would say that’s the biggest challenge. You need to be like, do I have enough ideas that I can teach them and that they will be useful to my audience? 

I would also say it really, really helps to know who that audience is and have it really niched down. Because even me, I like to say that I’m only selling to copywriters, but I have a huge amount of business owners who are who are on the list and they have different challenges to copywriters. And frankly, they are better customers. 

Copywriters are really, really flaky. I mean, okay, I just realized I can rant and you guys have just been nodding your heads because you saw the copywriter… It’s like, copywriters will be like, oh, yes, I found a YouTube video. I’m a copywriter now. I watched this video yesterday. How to make six figures in a year. I’m a copywriter. And then three months later, that guy’s like, copywriting sucks. I’m going on to the next thing. 

If you are selling to florists or bakers or something, he’s not saying I’m going to be a florist today. And then three months later, being a florist sucks. I’m going to sell my shop. They can’t. They have to be whatever they are. They’re too invested. Copywriters, nope. They’re not invested. So I have people who’ll subscribe and they’re like, this is the greatest thing ever. I love you. You’ve made me, I just closed my first client. I’m like, well, sweet. You know, I’ve changed your life. And then three months later, they’re like, I’m not a copywriter anymore. I’ve moved on to something else.

Dude! What? There’s a lot of that. And you are both so familiar with that. So, you know, as much as I would like to focus on the copywriters, they’re also a big bunch of flakes with all love to copywriters out there. they’re very flaky and so you kind of want to appeal to the business owners. 

But then that makes things harder because if I only sold the copywriters and I think you, Rob and Kira, have an advantage over me in that regard, you are even more niched about like we are for copywriters and so you can just talk about getting clients, for example. I can’t publish a newsletter on getting clients because that would alienate half my subscriber base. They get nothing out of that because they’re not looking for copywriting clients. And so the reason I bring this up is if you’re going to do something like this, you need to have a really good idea of who your product is going to be for so that you know you are delivering things that are useful to them. And so me, I would love to say it’s for copywriters because then I could talk about getting clients, but I can’t. 

I know that everything I write has to be related to something that you could use if you’re a business owner or if you’re a copywriter. And that makes it a lot harder. So those are two things related to coming up with ideas. So you have to be really comfortable with coming up with enough ideas and you also have to know who you’re going to be writing for. 

And then I would say you have to actually have that subscriber base of a free list that you are going to start selling into a newsletter. And I know like, it does seem really appealing to have this kind of thing. And it’s good to have a recurring newsletter. But I spent three years building up that list to the point where I felt comfortable in actually having those ideas to share, committing to doing it once a month, and being able to get enough people in through the free list to sell to. And if you If you haven’t first built the discipline of mailing a list regularly and building that relationship with them, you’re not going to be able to take the next step and start actually selling something. 

So I’d say if you’re looking to do this, you need to make sure like, do I already have a list of, I’d say a few thousand at least you want to have, because I probably had around 10,000 on my list when I launched Adventures in Copyland. I’m not sure. But you want to have at least a few thousand that you are regularly in contact with. They’re buying your other stuff. They’re buying one-off courses and offers from you so you know that they are going to buy from you before you take the next step, which is to get them to commit to something recurring. Because that’s the hardest thing to do, recurring things. 

I have a policy that I got from Ben Settle, which is once they cancel, they can’t come back. And it’s intense. And even as a customer, I used to hate it on bans like that. I feel trapped in that. It was only when I started running my own that I realized why you do it. Number one, cancellation is a hassle for me. I don’t like it. Number two, I’m selling really, really good stuff like the book launch model. I thought the whole book launch strategy, which probably could have been a several hundred dollar product, and I sold it for $50 in an issue of a newsletter. I was very honest. I said, I just don’t want people coming in for one month, paying me $50 to learn something so valuable. And then canceling and being like, I’ll see if next month is for me. You know, I want people who are committed, who are like, yes, I trust you, you’re going to deliver because to me, it’s a two way deal. You need to trust me to deliver and then I need to not have to worry that you are just going to keep cancelling every month so I can just stop worrying about retention and so on. I say, I know I’ve got the subscriber base. I’m going to focus all my energy on coming up with really good ideas. And to me, people who buy, cancel, buy, cancel, buy, cancel were violating that trust and they didn’t allow me to focus on just coming up with ideas because they have to keep worrying, oh, I’m going to lose my entire subscriber base. To me, it’s kind of a trust relationship. It goes both ways, and that’s why we have the policy there.

Rob Marsh: A lot of what you’re saying rings a bell, feels familiar. Obviously, we sell to copywriters, so we deal with a lot of that. And one of the things that we advise a lot of copywriters to do is once they start seeing, hey, I’m actually pretty good at this thing, maybe I will start talking about some of these skills and helping other people do it, is to not focus on other copywriters, but talk to your niche, who don’t know anything about copywriting or know very little about it. They know very little about marketing. You’re so far ahead and it becomes so easy to provide value to your niche that just is the same old, same old if you’re talking to other copywriters.

Daniel Throssell: I completely agree. I think that’s what I was getting at too with, if you’re trying to do this to sell to copywriters, it’s so, so hard. If you’re teaching copywriting to people who’ve never heard copywriting, you can be like, write to one reader and they’re like, oh my gosh, wow, this is so cool. So it’s just playing the game on easy mode. I would completely agree with you there. I think it’s just a very advanced thing to do. You have to know that you can deliver. You can deliver on your deadlines, that you can hit deadlines, that you can keep coming up with ideas. And to me, that’s even more important than any numerical things like, do I have enough people on my list, blah, blah. It’s like, am I the kind of person who can thrive under this model? Because I will tell you, before I started this newsletter in September 2022, I didn’t have any subscription stuff. I made all my revenue through launches and new products. And frankly, I did really, really well for myself. I’ve made a lot of money doing that. And yeah, it’s nice to have the recurring revenue, but it’s also an added layer of stress that you don’t have if you’re just coming up with individual products. And there are some people in the industry, they just launch stuff, they just sell new products. And honestly, that has more of a new shiny object appeal to it than a recurring newsletter. 

And people are way more likely, I actually lamented about this the other day in my emails, like the total cost of my newsletter until now has been $1,000. And I have taught so much good stuff, it blows my mind and yet, Like people are still like, oh, I don’t want to commit to a $50 a month thing. And yet they will. buy a $1,000 course like, oh yeah, sure, no worries. They’ve probably bought five of them over the last two years. And it’s like, I can’t make people see that. So it’s very, I will say like, you know, the grass can look greener on the other side. Yeah, it’s nice to have the model I have and it works for me, but you need to be the kind of person who enjoys that, who can deal with that. And if not, if you don’t like the deadlines, if you don’t like the stress, you know, maybe just stick into a launch model or offering services or productized services that can actually be a way to do it because it takes a kind of person more than any business metric. You have to be the kind of person who is able to show up every month and say, I’m going to deliver something fantastic, no matter what. And frankly, people have to be honest with themselves. A lot of people don’t have that in them, I don’t think. And you have to be, you have to know the kind of person that you are. And so I had written a daily email every day for, you know, three years running when I launched that thing. So I kind of had that idea that I’m the kind of person who can do this.

Rob Marsh: Or they have it in them for six months or nine months, but not for years and years and years, which is probably why most newsletters end after I think 12 or 14 issues is kind of the standard. 

Kira Hug: Well, and unfortunately or fortunately, I mean, there’s deadlines with subscriptions, but there’s deadlines with services. If you’re a copywriter working with a client, you’re going to still have deadlines.

Daniel Throssell: I’m not disagreeing with you, Kira.

Kira Hug: The deadline will always exist. We just have to adapt to the deadline.

Daniel Throssell: It’s true. It’s true. I cannot think of anything I hate more in life than client work. It was just the worst thing I’ve ever done. I just wanted to be out of that as soon as I could. It was my goal from day one. I don’t want to work with clients anymore.

Kira Hug: So to thrive under this model, you are focused, right? You have this consistency that we can see from the outside looking in that’s allowed you to be successful in this model and to grow your business. I’m curious about your day and how you structure parts of your day. I also know you have kids. How old are your kids?

Daniel Throssell: Seven, four, and two. And they’re running around outside this office right now. I can hear them.

Kira Hug: I love hearing them. I also have three kids. So yes, you’re in it and you’re doing all this and you have this focus enough to bring in new creative ideas, which is not easy. Being creative is not easy. So how do you structure day to day so that you’re able to execute at this high level?

Daniel Throssell: The important thing for me is understanding what my goals are at the moment. And so my view is that everything, everything is just going to be for a season. Like that’s just one of my philosophies. Everything’s just going to be for a season. And there’s going to be times when my kids, when I’m going to have a newborn, and not a lot is getting done in that season. And that’s okay. That doesn’t mean the rest of my life is going to be like that, but it means for that season, it is going to be. And so that’s, that’s a big realization. It’s been a big realization for me over the last few years to not judge the stage that I’m in now by any stage that’s come before and compare my output to, to whatever I’m doing. So a few years ago with just one kid, it was very easy to find a lot of time to do stuff. And you know, with one kid, you outnumber the kid two to one, parents are like, great, you know, even with like, you can handle it, you can split up, but when you have two or three, it’s just not like that. And so what I have had to do, as of late, is I mentioned, I had pulled back on a lot of you know, promotional stuff and doing things like this is the first podcast I’ve done in ages. 

I realized my main goals right now are getting that email done every day and getting that newsletter done every month. If I do those two things, I will at least maintain, if not grow my business. Frankly, like I told you, it’s been growing, it’s been doing very well. I’m going to have my best year ever this year, I think. But I know that I’ll at least maintain what I’ve got if I do those things. And so I organize my day around like that’s the goal. I don’t have to come up, there’s other courses I wanna make, there are advertising strategies I wanna pursue, there’s other things I want to do, but they are not the main goal right now. So if I get them done fantastic, the truth is I haven’t made any progress on them for the last six months, that’s also okay, because I’ve hit the main goals. And the main goals are, do the email, and do the newsletter. 

So the days don’t really look like super productive, honestly. Like yesterday, I’ll be honest with you, yesterday, what did I do? Like in the morning, you know, I wake up, I’ll do some Bible study for like an hour and then I’ll do a workout. Yesterday’s workout took way too long. It was like two and a half hours.

Rob Marsh: Every workout takes way too long.

Daniel Throssell: It’s just the way they are doing this program. My brother’s a personal trainer. He has me on this special program at the moment. It’s just taking so long. I hate it. But yeah, so I finished the workout at like, 10:30 or something like that and then I get a call from Scotty who’s like, oh, can we can we talk about my column for this week? And so I’m on there for the next hour. I was talking to him and so I was like 11:30 a.m. And I haven’t done anything at all for my business yet. And by the way, I have my youngest kid there because I’m looking after him because Haley’s gone to work so then I have to feed him lunch and put into bed and now it’s midday. And so I’m having my own lunch, and I still haven’t done anything for my business. And so I’m like, Hmm, what am I going to write an email about? And I came up with an idea. And I wrote it in about half an hour. And then I sat there for about an hour and a half trying to work out how I was going to end that email. And literally I did nothing else. I was just like, I don’t like this. And I’m just, I will often write at my coffee table, and I’m just like lying there on the floor, like looking up at the roof and my wife walks past me. She probably thinks I just don’t do any work. I think she knows she can see the thinking look on my face, but I’m just literally lying there on the floor. It’s like, what am I going to do? And then I get distracted. Then I go think about it again. And so by about three o’clock, I think I finished. I finished that email and I loaded it up. So that was yesterday’s email. That was the first goal achieved. And then I’m like, okay, I’m going to start working on an affiliate promotion that I’m doing. And so I opened up Google Docs, and I started writing some notes for that for about half an hour. And then I was like, yeah, I should probably just go and call it a day now. And so that was the output of my day yesterday. 

I share that with you, because that was a very real day. I’d love to be like, oh, I wake up and do a cold shower, and then I do the 10-mile run. But it doesn’t look like that often. Because at about 4 PM, I went, and I was playing with my kids. And then I went and cooked dinner, and I watched football. That was the ultra productive day of an entrepreneur there yesterday. 

But what was important to me is like, I am always going to get that email done. I’m going to get it done. I know that’s not negotiable. Because I published the monthly newsletter on the 15th, today is the 19th. So I kind of give myself five days to just be in holiday mode and not think about it because it’s so miserable. The week or two leading up to it just sucks so bad, like the publishing deadline and everything. So I’m just like, yes, I’m on holiday. So that wasn’t part of my day yesterday, but if we were closer to a deadline, that also would have been part of the day and I would have got that done. So it’s not that it looks super productive or anything. It’s just, I know the things I have to do and I make sure I do them. And if other things happen, that’s fantastic. They probably won’t. That’s lamentable, but that’s okay. And one day my kids will be older. I won’t be working out for two and a half hours that day, whatever. One day this season will be over and I maybe will get more done. And that’s how I console myself. I don’t lose hope. I’m like, okay, this is my current season. This is what I can do. And so I’m very pragmatic about it in that regard, I think.

Rob Marsh: I’ve been on your list a long time, so I’ve seen the breadth of what you write, the different things you bring to your emails, and even some of the courses that you create. I’m curious, aside from just living life, where else do you get inspiration? Are there particular books that you love reading? And by the way, a long time ago now, you recommended Blake Crouch on some of your emails. I immediately went through all of his books. His books are so good. They’re just good enough to reread or re-listen to. But where else do you find any inspiration?

Daniel Throssell: For emails, honestly, I try number one is daily life. And for the reasons I said earlier, dialogue is my favorite thing to have in an email. So I will try and get a moment from my life because that’s just the gold standard. If I can’t get that, the next place I’m going is my inbox and just riffing on things people have sent me from readers or other things I’ve read from other copywriters, what they’re doing. Because to me, dialogue, my stories is number one. 

Number two thing people love is just clashes of opinions and controversy and just opinions on opinions. That’s why I watch a YouTube video for five minutes and then you spend half an hour reading the comments. You know, just this long argument between two guys who just resorted to calling each other idiots. And it’s like, you’re fascinated by it. You just can’t stop reading. So I will try and just do opinion or commentary on anything I’ve seen that someone else has said, because people find that fascinating. 

And if I can’t do that, those are the days that I’m sitting there lying on the floor next to my coffee table for two hours. Like, what am I going to write about?  I don’t know. Sometimes I just have to make it up on those days where I’m like, you saw the email that had 15,000 O’s in it. Like that was just sometimes things like that happen.

Rob Marsh: That was, that was Daniel fell asleep at his laptop and somebody hit send. Yeah.

Daniel Throssell: It’s really just trying to react to things that I see online. And I don’t like doing that because I don’t like spending time on the internet. I hate the internet. I don’t like watching news. I don’t have social media. And frankly, I don’t like being in my inbox either. But sometimes it’s a necessary evil to come up with. When you’re creating daily content, you can’t really escape it, unfortunately. I just don’t think I’m getting inspiration for emails from books or anything because Most of the books I’m reading are fiction. And copywriters, I don’t know, there’s not many ideas I get out of fiction that I can write about. And one of my pet hates with people in the copywriting industry is that, especially newer people trying to come up with content, it’s like, three marketing lessons I got from watching this or reading this. It’s like, what a miserable way to live your life that you’re just enjoying fiction or a work of art and you’re like, what’s the marketing lesson in this? I just, I rebel again.

Rob Marsh: I’m going to be the email promoting this episode is going to be titled marking lessons from listening to this podcast.

Kira Hug: Yeah, unfortunately, my brain is also wired that way, where I’m like, oh, there’s a marketing lesson. And it just goes there. And it’s hard to shut up.

Daniel Throssell: Yeah, I get it. Because you’re actually a copywriter. And you think in terms of that. And that’s okay. But I mean, people who approach fiction thinking they don’t approach it as a work of fiction to enjoy, they approach it as like, yeah, what marketing lesson am I going to get out of this? And I’m just like, that’s true. There’s no joy in your life when you live like that. So I will. Yeah. I listened to audio books. I love the Sherlock Holmes audio books. I love the Aubrey Maturin series. I just like fiction and it was a shift I made a few years ago to stop reading so much self-development and start reading a bit more fiction. And it’s just enjoyable. It’s nicer than listening to self-development stuff. 

Kira Hug: All right, I have three quick questions like a real lightning round.

Daniel Throssell: Oh, I’m nervous. I feel like I butchered some of the questions.

Rob Marsh: There’s no such thing as a lightning round with us, Daniel, just keep that in mind.

Kira Hug: I can’t even remember all three. And if you don’t answer one, that’s fine. So first one, when was the last day—you said you don’t read the news typically, but like—was there a certain date where you cut it off? And you’re  going to make this change and go from this to this?

Daniel Throssell: I read a book called Stop Reading the News by Rolf Dobelli. I think it was 2021 that I read that book, maybe 2022. Just fantastic book. Honestly, I recommend that book so much. Stop Reading the News by Rolf Dobelli. You’re like, oh yeah, well, I know what it’s going to say. Sure. But it’s the arguments for it. So whenever I read that book, I was like, I’m not reading news anymore. And I use an app called Freedom. It’s blocked on my devices. I can’t. I try and load a new site, it won’t open.

Kira Hug: Okay all right so should we tell you when the next eclipse is happening? Should we look that up for you?

Daniel Throssell: That’s the one hole in my system is the other copywriters I’m subscribed to and they talk about stuff and I’m like dang it stop. You know Sean McIntyre you had him on recently. He’s a good friend of mine. I actually unsubscribed from his investing thing. I was like, dude, I’m sorry. I love you. It’s a great newsletter, but I just don’t want to know. My whole investing philosophy is about passive investing. I invest. I buy the index fund. I don’t look at it. And then Sean’s sending me this weekly email like, gold is going up 3%. You better buy. It’s like, dude, I love you and your writing is fantastic, but I have to unsubscribe. And he’s like, I understand that. So yeah, I even just try and pursue active ignorance about things that I don’t consider important to my life. So if there is an eclipse coming over Perth, yes, feel free to shoot me an email and let me know. That way I won’t freak out.

Kira Hug: Not on social media, but we’ll email you. Okay, second question is, how do you feel about AI in a sentence or two?

Rob Marsh: This is not a lightning round question with Daniel.

Kira Hug: You have to answer in a sentence or two. Those are the constraints. You cannot go past that.

Daniel Throssell: Overrated. I don’t know how I can answer that in a sentence or two. I want to share this one thought, like everyone talks about AI, like, give it five years. It’s gonna get so good. One day it will do everything we do. And I just want to give a perspective. It may not even be right, but no one’s even thought of it. What if that’s not true? What if like people say in 1960 we’re gonna have hover cars just you wait look we’ve gone from horse and cart to petrol engines like by 2024 we’re gonna have flying cars just watch it’s inevitable. Maybe it’s not, maybe it actually has a ceiling. And I just want to put that out there. I’m not going to argue for it. It may not be true, but everyone is just so hooked on the idea that AI will get better and better and better. What if it doesn’t? What if it actually has an inherent limit to how creative it can be? And it’s currently, in which case it’s not that good.

Kira Hug: That’s fair. And we don’t argue in the lightning round. We can’t argue.

Rob Marsh: I’m not going to argue, but I’m going to throw out my two or three sentences, which I think the limit is actually going to be energy use and cost of equipment, because at some point the VC money dries up. And if it doesn’t pay for itself, AI doesn’t work anymore. So a lot of the tools that we use are going to get more expensive. A lot of them are just going to go away. And I think that’s where we’ll start to find the limits. But there might be some intelligence limits, too.

Kira Hug: All right.

Daniel Throssell: There are severe intelligence limits on that thing.

Kira Hug: Moving on with the lightning round. Sorry. Third question. Final lightning round question. Is there someone that you’d like to have a battle with online? They don’t have to be a copywriter online.

Rob Marsh: I’m pretty sure Daniel put me in the hospital in an email one time.

Kira Hug: Someone else you haven’t had a battle with that you would like that you’ve been eyeing and that you’re like, oh, I might battle that person at some point, but I’m not quite ready.

Daniel Throssell: I am not going to say anything on the record for that.

Kira Hug: Give us a hint. Give us one hint.

Daniel Throssell: Aanyone who’s been on my email knows very well, I have been in several. There are a couple. There’s more than one when when we stop recording, I will regale you with tales that I would just not want on public record. 

Rob Marsh: You do take on groups like copywriting on Reddit, the Reddit subgroup copywriting. That’s one of your enemies.

Daniel Throssell: It was. Yeah. A while ago, that was one of my targets. I don’t like people who don’t really have their audience’s best interests at heart. And there are some in the industry, they’re selling stuff. They’ll literally say, which of these products will you buy? And then they’ll make the product that people will buy. There’s no question of, is this really going to be the best thing for you? Is this really going to help you? It’s just about, can I make money? And I really rail against that kind of stuff. And I feel a lot of my hatred for AI stuff stems from that, from people who’ve tried to use AI as a way to make money off copywriters rather than helping them. And my anti-AI stance is that when you are relying too much on it, it’s actually really cool. I use AI all the time, but just not for copywriting. But if you’re relying on that to paper over the skill gaps that you have as a copywriter, you’re not going to progress. And the reason we talked about this in this episode, like if you want to have a business something like mine, you have to be the kind of person who can come up with creative and valuable fresh ideas worth paying for. AI will not help you do that. And so I just really feel like it’s not good for people and a lot of people selling AI prompts and so on. It’s going to get outdated. It’s not valuable. It’s just a cash grab. And I just really have an issue with that. So that’s probably a serious answer to your question, Kira.

Kira Hug: We like to end on a serious note. That’s perfect. All right. Where can listeners go if they want to connect with you? Obviously not LinkedIn. Tried to connect with you there. Not there.

Daniel Throssell: So, yeah, LinkedIn’s blocked on my computer. I set up the profile to link to my homepage and then I blocked LinkedIn. So, I can’t even go and change that now. So, I don’t see anything there. I only have one point of entry into my world and one alone and that is persuasivepage.com. That’s my website and my email list is the only place I create anything. So, it’s very simple for people to find me and very simple for me to manage. I’m just not on all the socials or anything.

Rob Marsh: Okay. Well, thanks Daniel for opening up a bit about the launch plan as well as, you know, what you’re doing with emails. There’s a lot of stuff here to consider and think about. So we really appreciate it.

That’s the end of our interview with Daniel Throssell. 

I want to add just a couple of thoughts to the discussion that we were sharing. While we were talking, Daniel mentioned the Black Friday promotion where he doubled the sales of all of the other participants put together. on that promotion. He did an incredible job. We were part of that promotion and saw what he did firsthand. And when it comes to promotions that work and turning ideas on their head to find new ways to do things, Daniel’s really good. He’s worth listening to and paying attention to. 

Also, don’t miss the fact that Daniel has written and sent an email to his list every single day for more than four years. That includes when he was on vacation, sick days, he doesn’t miss. In fact, I think he’s missed one in something like seven years. There’s a lesson in that. You can call yourself the best, but it’s stuff like showing up every single day that actually proves that you’re the best. And like Daniel said, nothing happens if you’re not doing anything. I’m encouraging you to take a lesson from that. How can you show up, maybe not every single day, although that’s definitely not a bad idea, but how can you show up consistently more than once a week over and over to prove that you’re the best at what you do? It’s worth thinking about. Actually, do more than think. Once you know what you want to do, start showing up. There’s a little bit more to it than just showing up because most of what you have to do has to be good. Now, not everything’s going to be a hit. You’re going to make a few mistakes. You’re going to fail, especially as you’re getting started. And as Seth Godin likes to say, half of all of your posts will be below average. But by continually doing good work consistently, you’ll eventually build the audience that you need to support your work. 

One other piece of Daniel’s approach that I think is worth thinking about is the fact that Daniel’s online character is a bit brash. He mentioned how he’s self-aggrandizing, and that’s part of his approach to every email and to the character that he’s building. And while that kind of character may not ring true for you, there’s something about that kind of self-assurance that attracts attention, and sometimes it attracts criticism. But even critical attention helps him build his brand. Like I said, this isn’t going to fit most people, so think of it as showing up larger than life. What can you emphasize or use to play big? If you know the answer to that, then you may be on your way to being the best at what you do. Whether that’s copywriting or marketing or some particular deliverable, you want to be the best. 

I want to thank Daniel again for joining us to talk about his business and the characters that he’s building, his launch strategy. Be sure to jump on Daniel’s email list at persuasivepage.com. That’s the only place that you can connect with him. His approach to writing emails is unique, and it’s probably worth paying attention to if you write emails for clients or if you write emails for your own list. 

And don’t forget, if you want to get your hands on the full strategy that he used to help Scott Pape get three different books to number one on the bestseller list, and remember, this strategy can be used to sell a lot more than books, you need to be a member of The Copywriter Underground, which you can join at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. We’ll be sharing details with members there shortly. 

That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this interview, please share it with a friend or an associate or anyone else who might enjoy it or learn from it. And you can always leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. We’d love to see your reviews at Apple Podcasts, where it really does make a difference. 

What is the difference between showing up as a copywriter and showing up as a strategist? In the 393rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Eman Ismail about how she changed her title and the work she does to reflect a new and more satisfying role of “email strategist”. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  When we coach the copywriters inside the copywriter think tank or in our group coaching groups—which by the way are open now and if you’re interested you can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/coach—sorry didn’t really mean to take that tangent… but when we coach copywriters one idea that comes up a lot is the need to not just show up as a writer… an order taker… or as a vendor, but rather you need to be a problem solver. And often that means taking on the role of a strategist in addition to the work you do as a writer. But how do you do that? It’s one thing to say, I’m a strategist and quite another to actually do the work that strategy requires.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed email strategist—not copywriter—Eman Ismail. Eman share why she rejects the title of copywriter today and what it really means to show up as a strategist. This might not be the kind of thing a beginner can do, but if you’ve got some experience creating copy and serving your clients, you may be picking up the expertise you need to show up as a strategist for your clients. Be sure to stick around to hear how Eman does it.  

Now before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about The Copywriter Underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May.  Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now.

We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to subscribers who paid to recieve his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. Even new subscribers to his newsletter don’t have access. But he offered to give this strategy—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May—and only for members of The Underground. 

If you were to purchase these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. Plus you get all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with your membership in The Underground. There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eman.

Kira Hug: Let’s start with recent moves you’ve made to level up in your business. Because when you were here last, we talked about your origin story in your business and how you were leveling up at the time. And what I love about you and just watching you and, and, um, hearing from you is you’re like constantly leveling up in big ways. And so why don’t you just describe maybe the most recent changes that have helped you get to that next level?

Eman Ismail: You know, I’m going to say really thinking of myself as a strategist and positioning myself as a strategist. So I have always loved the copywriting aspect. Obviously, I am an email strategist and copywriter, so I do a lot of emails. But, you know, it took me a while to get out of the idea of, only I can do this. You know, this is why I can’t hire anyone else, because only I can do it, how my clients want me to do it. It took me a while to realize this, but finally realized that’s not true. There are plenty of amazing email copywriters in the world who can do what I do and who can support me and help me help my clients. 

So I’ve I’ve actually leaned into the strategy role even more and got um help and hired writers to help me with the execution so um that means I get to do more of what I enjoy which is the like the putting the pieces of the puzzle together and figuring out what the sequence needs um and then I get to hand over my email strategy to someone I work with or someone that I hire and let them know okay this is what we’re going to do and then they do it and it’s just it’s amazing it’s amazing because well yeah I get to focus on what I enjoy most and then also I get to hire another copywriter which is fun and I enjoy doing that and then I get to come back in and copy chief at the end which is something I really enjoy doing as well.

Rob Marsh: Eman, let’s go deeper on that idea of being a strategist. Could you walk us through a sample project, or maybe even make one up as you go along? We often talk about how, as copywriters, we need to take more of a strategy role. I think with the emergence of AI, that’s becoming a really common theme to hear in the copywriting world. But a lot of people may think, okay, but how does that differ from just being a copywriter? So walk us through a project and how you see it, how you approach the strategy, the kinds of things that you’re thinking about as you put the pieces of the puzzle together, as you said, so that we can see what that really means.

Eman Ismail: Yes. Before I do that, can I tell you what I used to do and then tell you what I do now? Because I think the difference is just so stark. So what I used to do was, my clients would come to me and say, I need five emails on you know whatever it is that we’re trying to sell. And I would say okay, great five emails cost x amount and then I would do that and they’d pay that and then they tell me exactly what they want me to write in each email and I remember at one point a client giving me what they wanted me to write and thinking this is terrible. But I was so early on in my career as a copywriter that I didn’t have the confidence to say to them, this is terrible. We probably shouldn’t do this. 

But I realized that was really to my own detriment because not having the confidence to tell the client this isn’t a good idea meant that. They put the emails out there. They were happy with my work, but then they put emails out there and then, it didn’t get the great results that we wanted. And that was no shock to me because I knew the strategy wasn’t great. 

And I realized that actually what my clients need from me is they need me to be a leader. They need me to be able to give them kind of constructive criticism and let them know when something’s not working. That’s what they pay me for. That’s what they prefer. So I ended up just finding a bit of confidence somewhere in me and telling clients that the strategy piece was no longer an option like they they cannot come to me and say oh we don’t want you to work on the strategy we just want to pay you for the copywriting which was what was happening a lot of the time like in their minds they’d separate this the strategy and the copy so that they could pay me less basically and so I stopped I stopped doing that I told them that’s not an option anymore in order to work with me so that I can help you get the results that we want I need to do the strategy and I need to do the copy and um initially well that meant my prices went up and so I did lose some clients. But I gained better clients which was very exciting. So that was the change. 

What happens now is well my clients come to me and they know that they’re getting the strategy and the copy and if anything My clients probably value the strategy side more because they can convince themselves that they can go and write a sequence. And they do. Before they’ve hired me, I know that all my clients have tried writing their own sequences and they’ve probably done okay. Like I’m working with a client right now who can write pretty well. I was reading over some of the emails that she’d written for a previous launch and the emails are pretty good. But she has no idea why she’s done what and you know, the strategy piece is really what’s missing for her. And so I know that my clients really value that the idea of hiring an expert to figure it out to do all the like the brain work. And so that’s, that’s what I do now. 

And I’ve been able to charge so much more because of it and also get really high quality clients who appreciate the work that goes into the strategy side of the email. Now, I mean, I always start off with audience research. So I have two different packages. Generally, all my packages come with customer surveys. So at the very least, the client will get customer surveys. I’ll also pitch them on a bigger research project with customers, with voice of customer interviews, so we can do like the whole thing. And so we either way, we always start off with research. And then my job then is to is to either go through the research myself, if we’re doing surveys, if we’ve done interviews, I hire someone else to come in and do all the interviews. So they actually present to me the findings, which is amazing. So all I then need to do is read through their, their report, their messaging report and understand what’s going on with all the, with all the voice of customer data. And then I need to map out how we get the subscriber from point A to Z in this case. 

So I want to start off at the end. I usually start at the end and figure out, well, okay, what’s the goal and then work backwards. So what do we need to say? in order for the subscriber to say yes to this offer. And so I really kind of break that down email by email. And, um, and then it becomes really simple and it’s about hitting those specific points. So I know in order for the subscriber to say yes to this, uh, you know, they have the objection of, well, right now I’m working with, um, a money mindset coach. And I know that a lot of the, one of the objections that came up quite a bit was, well, I don’t know if I want to join a group coaching program. I think I would prefer one-to-one coaching. And so of course, one of the emails is going to be, is going to be about that. So another one is investment as always. People are worried about spending their money. In this case it’s a 15k mastermind so you know they are concerned. So we want a whole email based on money objections and why it’s worth them spending their money on this mastermind. And so I feel like that’s the easy part. The easy part is figuring out what goes into the email sequence. I think the hardest part is probably, what do we not need to put in there? Because you can just put so much in there. So we also need to figure out like, okay, this objection came up, but it didn’t come up enough for us to put it into the email sequence. Or this pain came up, but actually, this pain, if we talk about this, will attract the wrong ideal, ideal client. We don’t want to attract those people who are having that pain. So let’s remove that and not even think about that, discuss that. We don’t want to bring that to people’s attention, you know? So often when you have the research, I feel like the research is the biggest part of this. It’s really about piecing it together and figuring out what needs to go inside. That part I feel is the easier part. The harder part is like cutting it and figuring out what doesn’t need to be in there.

Kira Hug: Maybe we can get even more granular. When you’re sitting down to map out the strategy, what else is happening? Are you using any AI tools? Are you just really starting from scratch each time? Are you using previous templates where you’re like, OK, typically this is the flow of a seven email sequence, but I’m going to also make sure that it works for this sequence, but I have a starting point. And then what does the communication with the client look like? Are you getting any type of approval on strategy or are you just like, this is a strategy we’re moving forward. You won’t see it until the end.

Eman Ismail: Oh, good question. So, in terms of the second question I used to have a part in my process where I would present my strategy outline to the client and get their approval. But then I decided I didn’t want to do that anymore. Because honestly, first of all, I work with clients who are very, very busy, they’re generally kind of mid six figure, seven figure plus clients, like they don’t have time for extra steps that maybe aren’t totally necessary. And I feel like when I did do that, it was often because I was a little worried, my confidence wasn’t where it is now. And so I just I wanted that like extra reassurance that the client was really happy about it. I don’t feel like the clients felt like they needed that extra step. And so I actually decided to cut that step. So for the past few years, I have not been getting approval from my clients at the strategy outline part. 

And instead, what I do is, I write up the sequence, and then I will send them a loom video walk through and actually just kind of defend my decisions and explain my decisions so that they really understand why I decided to do what. And I generally already know what their objections are going to be. That’s the great thing about being a copywriter, right? We already can see the objections. So my goal in that kind of handover is to really handle the objections that I know they’re going to have. I had that with a client recently. I knew which part that she would feel iffy about, so I walked her through it, explained why we did it, and then also gave her a couple of other options for, you know, if she was truly against it. And then we have a round of revision, so anything that needs editing, which usually isn’t a lot, gets edited. 

Again, one round of revision, because I found three rounds for me was just, it was unnecessary, and gave clients just, a lot of extra time to tinker around with the document and they don’t need all that extra time. Let’s just do it one time. I tell them you have a week to go through it. Give me all your edits in one go and then I will go back, do those edits and we are done. We’re done. And so that’s how it works now and it works really well and I think it works so well because my briefing process is so kind of nailed down. And because that part goes so well, I can really have confidence in the end result. I think if my briefing process wasn’t the way that it is, I wouldn’t be able to do that. Because I’d be worried that I’m doing the wrong thing, but I’m not worried because I know what my client needs. 

And then also, again, if there’s something that they might not like or they might disagree with, I know to handle that before it even becomes a conversation. Um, and then they feel really kind of, I guess, eased by the fact that I already know what they’re thinking. I already know what they’re worrying about. And so, and I’ve already considered that and they know I’ve already considered that. So they can kind of trust me with that moving forward. Um, my, I, the kind of clients I’m working with now, they just need somebody to just take, just take it over, just do it. Um, and you know, they don’t want to be, They don’t be doing extra steps, getting on extra calls, doing all that stuff if they really don’t need to be. And then your other question, which was. How do I map out? Oh yeah, do I have any templates or anything like that? Do I use anything?

Kira Hug: Yeah, like when you sit down, are you starting from scratch? Are you starting with a template? Are you using different tools to figure it out?

Eman Ismail: Yes. OK, so I’m actually really big on not using detailed templates, because I really, truly believe that sequences need to be customized for the client. So when people are selling, welcome sequence templates and, you know, fill in the blanks kind of stuff. I passionately, I’m just like, I don’t love it. But what I do have is an idea of what needs to go in a welcome sequence, for example. And so I know that there are going to be emails and well, I know that the first email is always going to be the lead magnet delivery, whatever that is. And then I know there’s going to be an intro email or like, you know, meet the founder kind of email. 

I know that there’s going to be an almost like a values or philosophy kind of email. Sometimes that will just go in the intro email, but sometimes if it’s super strong, like with one of the clients that I currently work with, it needs its own email because it’s just that important. And then there are going to be the value emails where we’re trying to prove the client’s expertise and authority. So I have an idea of what’s going to go in it but I’m really make sure that I don’t I don’t limit myself to that and there’s always the there’s always flexibility in there and that if something needs to be changed or something needs to be added or if it doesn’t need anything if it doesn’t need a certain thing then I’ll take it away. 

So again I go into it with a with an idea of what’s going to go into it. But again, I do have an open mind in terms of, um, in terms of AI, I don’t use AI too much. I’m still figuring out how to use it. I’m really using it for, um, things like subject lines or, um, I work on a few sales pages, um, every now and then. So things like, um, you know, hero headlines or crossheads, that kind of thing. So I’m still figuring out how to bring AI into the process. I really need to listen to your podcast on it. So I’m not using it as much as I would like to. But I do have one template that actually Kirsty Fanton showed me in her BrainCamp course. and essentially it’s just an outline. 

It’s an outline of the information that I need going into a project. So it’s literally just like fill this in for each client and it goes into all like there’s like general notes at the top then all the usual stuff that you can imagine, panes, you know, a big idea or promise, objections, hesitations, sticky VOC. It’s just like a blank template that I know, okay, fill this in. And the great thing about this is that Kirsty Fanton actually told me that and told us that she gives this document to her clients. And I was a little bit unsure about doing that at first, because it’s very, very much a note kind of format. It’s just my notes. And I was a bit worried about it not being, you know, perfect. But I did start giving clients access to it. One of the clients I worked with two years ago just did a VOC interview for me because I’ve got a new website coming out. So we had VOC interviews for that. And she mentioned in the interview that that doc, that note stock that had my ideas and stuff in it, she still uses it two years later. That was amazing to me. So those are the kinds of things I use to go into creating a sequence.

Rob Marsh: So while we’re still talking about this, I have two questions. One, when you pulled back on the strategy and stopped getting client buy-in early on, was there any pushback at all, or did clients even notice, or was it smooth?

Eman Ismail: No, it was totally smooth because the majority of clients that I work with, they’ve never worked with an email strategist before. They’ve likely hired a copywriter, probably a generalist who does kind of a bit of everything for them. But I’m usually the first person there they’re hiring for that email specifically. So they come into it with a very open mind and kind of very much like just guide me, tell me what needs to be done, tell me what your process is. And they are totally, totally fine with that. So no pushback.

Rob Marsh: That’s what I would expect, too. I think a lot of us would think, oh, wait, I need to have this step or this part of my process. And yet when you implement it, when you make it better, when you make it work for however you want to run your business, clients don’t even notice that. So a lot of times I think internally we think we need to do X, Y and Z. And really, maybe we only need X and Z or Z and not all of the other stuff. So, yeah, I love just being able to simplify the way that we work with our clients.

Eman Ismail: Let me just add to that because the one part that I really thought I would get pushback on that I was a little bit worried about going into was the revision cycle. So for my VIP week, which I don’t offer any revisions for the VIP week. And that’s a $6,000 VIP week. And then for generally like custom projects, I only offer one round of revision. And we all know that the general kind of consensus in the creative world is that you will get multiple rounds of revision. So I’ve really expected there to be some pushback there or to be some frustration or annoyance, but there hasn’t been. And I do think one of the reasons for that is probably the fact that well, I explain the process in detail before they hire me, they know what’s coming. And so I’m very clear about the fact that they get one round of revision. So it’s not a surprise to them. They know that before they choose to hire me. And I’ve had absolutely no pushback on that, which has been amazing. And I was totally expecting to. So that’s one thing that did surprise me. And yeah, I feel like I’m an advocate for not necessarily having three rounds of revisions. I actually think that it’s, it’s just, What is the law? Is it Parkinson’s law, the time one? Well, you know, the task that you have expands for the amount of time that you give it. I feel like that’s the same for revision cycles. Like the revision cycle will take as long as you give the client, you know, the opportunity to tinker around in the document for. If you tell them like you’ve got one round of revision, they’ll get serious and they’ll make sure the revisions are done for that one round.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s 100% right. There’s a psychological thing that’s happening here is when you tell the client that their job is to do revisions, they go looking for things to revise. And if you tell them to do it two or three times, yeah, I mean, it just makes sense that of course, they’re going to keep changing a document.

Kira Hug: Exactly. Well, they invested in this project, right? And they’re investing a lot of money. So they’re like, well, if I hired you, and you’re the strategist, and you’re telling me to critique this, I better do it. And I better do it well. And I better spend a lot of time on it because I put $6,000 into this. So yes.

Eman Ismail: Yeah exactly and then there’s also the fact that I give guidance around, I know a lot of corporates do this, but just giving guidance around like the type of feedback to give and I actually tell them to limit their feedback to like tone of voice issues or things like inaccurate messaging or things that are just wrong because actually, and I say this to them, you know, a lot of, a lot of strategy has gone into this. A lot of work has gone into this from the VOC, um, research to just the persuasion and sales and marketing. And so, you know, everything that I’ve done is super intentional. 

And so we don’t want to be messing around with things and playing around with things, but I do want to make sure that everything I’ve said is accurate, that it sounds like you and that you are happy for this to have your name on it and go out into the world.

Rob Marsh: Okay, my other follow up question here is when you first mentioned the switch from just writing emails to adding strategy, your pricing changed. Could you give us like a before and after look at what prices look like, even if it’s just estimates?

Email Ismail: It was 2020 that I became an email strategist. Going into it, I was charging anything between kind of $75 an email to $100 an email. And when I decided to niche down truly into email and become a strategist and give clients this whole package, strategy and copy, I was then charging between $400 to $450 per email. Yeah, big jump. Big jump.

Kira Hug: Before we move away from strategy, although I actually do have a couple more questions, can we just break it down and give someone listening maybe two Maybe three, maybe it’s just two actionable concrete steps they could take today, tomorrow, if they want to move into this strategy role. I mean, you’ve already given a lot of advice around leading your client, but what else could they do that’s maybe a baby step?

Eman Ismail: Sign up to as many newsletters as possible and study the emails that are coming through to your inbox. Like I for fun have an entirely separate email address that’s just dedicated to me signing up to newsletters because I just enjoy reading newsletters and reading emails and following sequences and following launches and really kind of reverse engineering what’s going on and seeing what maybe the trends are, what’s working, what you like, what you don’t like So that’s the first thing, study emails and really love them. Maybe the second thing I’m going to say is join an email course. There are quite a few different ones from like Laura Belgray to Samar Owais to Joanna Wiebe over at Copyhackers. And I mean, all of them are slightly different and serve different purposes, but I think all of them help you get into the mindset of strategizing email and not just writing emails.

Rob Marsh: As you think about that, so again, this is a conversation that I think we’ve had in a few places where we talk about hand copying or studying. What is the process that you go through as you study them? What are you looking for so that you’re learning from them? Because I imagine that just signing up for a bunch of emails, at least half of the emails that are going to show up or the sequences that you’re in there, there’s not a lot of strategy. And so figuring out which emails to learn from versus which ones not. So talk through that thought process as well.

Email Ismail: OK, the first one is: sign up to as many email copywriters or email strategists as you can. So I have a lot of email copywriters on my list who tell me that they’re on my list because they are watching how I do email which is amazing because I’m on like Tarzan Kay‘s email list for the same reason, I’m on Laura Belgray’s email for this email list for the same reason, Samar Owais’, even Joe Wiebe’s, I mean Gosh, Jo’s emails is just so clever and she’s always going against the grain as well. So that’s something really interesting about Jo’s email strategy. And I also like to join the list of people who are making lots of money because, or who say they’re making lots of money because you know, you never really know, but people who say they’re making lots of money because they seem to be doing something right. So I’ll sign up to their emails as well and see what’s happening there.

Kira Hug: So how have you changed your marketing since you moved into strategist role? You know, you need different clients now, clients who can pay more, clients who are looking for a strategist. What does that look like for you?

Eman Ismail: I love this question because there are so many different parts to it. The first thing was I actually changed what I call myself, like my title. I used to refer to myself as a copywriter. And then initially I was struggling between email copywriter and email conversion copywriter. And then I realized, well, actually, I want to be known as an email strategist and copywriter. So the strategist always comes first. It’s always email strategist and copywriter. And I always correct people if they refer to me as an email copywriter. I would prefer, I would rather they refer to me as an email strategist and drop the copywriter than just email copywriter. And so that’s the first thing. And I made sure that, you know, people are referring to me. using that title. 

So I’m always instructing people on how to introduce me. And even now I still call myself an email strategist and copywriter, but you know, the copywriter might go at some point. Um, that’s what I’ve been kind of thinking recently. I think a big change, one big change was my website. I had a website rebranded completely. I had a completely new website done. and that changed the game for me. Really investing in my website and investing it in like my brand photos and that kind of thing really changed the game because you go on my website and you immediately know that this person is going to be kind of expensive. This is not, this is not a cheap copywriter. So, um, the great thing about my website is that some people will go on it and then leave because they’ll know that this, this budget isn’t going to work for me. And I’m actually going to be, again, I’m in the middle of upgrading my website. Again, I’ve got an entirely new website coming because the website that I have now, I wrote all the copy for it and created it when I just become an email strategist and copywriter. So I was really guessing at you know, what my clients need, what they think, what they want. Um, I think something really subtle is, you know, back then I thought my clients would hire me because they didn’t have time to write their own emails because I knew that they do, they do write their own emails and often they enjoy writing their own emails, like their weekly newsletter, that kind of thing. But it’s not that at all. Now that I’ve been working with these clients for four years, I know that it’s not about time at all. They just really value hiring an expert and they want to pay more for an expert to do it and to do it properly. 

So it has nothing to do with time or lack of time or anything like that. So really like subtle changes in messaging that are actually really important. Those kinds of things have changed and are going to change. Again I just upgraded my brand photos again which I think you know, a lot of people say you don’t need a website to, um, to be a copyright or do what you’re doing and to get clients, which I think is the case for some people. I will say that someone who has made the really good point on threads recently that I don’t think applies to people who look like me. I don’t think I get afforded the—I am black cause you can’t see me. I’m a black Muslim woman. I wear a headscarf—I don’t think that applies to me. I have to work extra hard to gain people’s trust in terms of my authority and expertise. So I have to have a website. And when I upgraded the website and put, you know, just investment and thought and a lot of time into the copy, the messaging, the design, the photos, the, the types of clients who are coming to me completely changed. completely changed. And so often the budget isn’t much of a conversation. It’s really, are we the right fit to work together?

Rob Marsh: And as you made the switch to strategist, you also mentioned that you focus on the strategy and sometimes hire a writer or work with another writer to do the copy. So I’m curious, what do you look for in that person in order to deliver on your strategy for your client?

Eman Ismail: Yes. Okay, so the people that I work with now are people who have their own niches so I work with one sales page copywriter and she just she just does sales pages and she’s amazing at them and I work with someone else who just does email and she’s great at email and so knowing that they have their own specialisms and their own interests and that’s what they spend the majority of their time doing um I love that because I really value a good niche and I know the power of having a niche and specializing, so that’s the first thing. 

The second thing is being open to feedback, which is something I guess you don’t really know until you’ve worked with a person, but being open to feedback and not being offended by feedback. I recently, just a few days ago, was working with one of these copywriters and she tried something in an email and I said oh actually I’ve tried that before and it didn’t work out too well and here’s why it doesn’t work too well and she just responded so graciously and she said you know thanks so much for sharing your experience that’s really great to know I’ve never done this before so it’s good to know what your experience of this is and I’m gonna get on changing that and it was just so refreshing and it was so nice and it was just she was open to feedback and just really positive and also they all deliver on time which is great and if they don’t they communicate it they communicate that something’s going on and so I think more than anything else it’s having people who are good communicators who care as much as I do about um about the clients and delivering great work to clients and of course they’ve got to be good copywriters as well.

Kira Hug: And how do you structure it with them currently? Are they employees? Are they contractors and they actually have their other clients in their own business? What does that look like right now?

Eman Ismail: Yes. So, actually the arrangement that we’ve had so far has kind of been just like, whenever I have work available, I’ll get in touch with them and their contractors, they have their own businesses and then we’ll, we’ll, you know, see if the timelines kind of work out. I’m actually, relaunching as a micro agency in the next couple of months, which is why my website is being redone. And so it’s going to be the same, the same, I think, process. They’re still going to be contractors. They still got their own businesses, but they’re going to be a bigger part of my business. They’re going to be on my website. They’re going to be part of the team kind of thing. And so right now, yeah that’s how it works. 

When I have projects available I’ll get in touch with them. I know who to get in touch with for what and yeah we’ve been chatting more recently about bringing them onto my team but as contractors I think when it’s if I ever do get employees or hire employees I think they’ll have to be someone people in my country because the laws are so strict. So I feel like I’m restricted in that sense. And having them be contractors just keeps everything flexible. And also, I really value freedom and flexibility. And so I love the fact that I can give them a project and I don’t have to, like, I’m not on their backs. They know when it’s due. If they have any questions, they know they can always get in touch with me and contact me. We’re always in contact via Boxer. We’re chatting, you know, in Asana as well. And they work when it suits them. And I don’t tell them what to do. I just give them the assignment and they do it. I like that freedom. And also, almost a bit of, it’s less responsibility for me, right? Than to have an employee. It works for all of us.

Kira Hug: Yeah. And I mean, if you have these team members, um, you must obviously have enough work to give them to have this team and shift into this phase confidently with the micro agency. Um, and a lot of writers, as you know, have struggled over the last year, year and a half. And so what are you doing to, track these clients beyond what you’ve shared about new brand, updating websites, like kind of leveling up that way? What are the marketing tactics that you focus on to keep the clients rolling in?

Eman Ismail: Yeah, great question. And actually, I’ve been really open about the fact that last year was a bit of a crazy year for me. And in the first four months of 2023, I hit six figures in the first four months. And then within another two months, I had surpassed my 2022 revenue. And then the middle of Q3 in 2023 was just like a ghost town. It was crazy. And then things picked up again in Q4, which is fantastic. but definitely yes to those ups and down periods. I think something that’s really helped me is to expect them instead of hope they don’t happen and just prepare for them. So you know in that time I was still able to hire the people that I was hiring, I was still able to pay the small team that I do have, I was still able to pay myself, nothing changed in that sense and so I was prepared for the dips rather than it just come in and then me panicking and having to fire everyone and you know not having a great a very great time um but in terms of your question which i forgot okay how do i get clients um i do a lot of i’ll do a lot of marketing i market myself every single day. 

So my main two social media platforms that I use are Instagram and LinkedIn. And it’s interesting because I used to think that LinkedIn got me a lot of clients, but when I actually started tracking it, I realized LinkedIn gets me a lot of leads, but those leads don’t often convert to clients. So, when I tracked Instagram… What do you think that is? I think that they’re just, they’re not my ideal clients. These people who are interested in working with me, but we’re not a great fit. Whereas on Instagram, we have the coaches, membership makers, the course creators, we are a really great fit. And they’ll also be attracted to my style of marketing and the way that I talk and you know, the, the posts that I’m posting. But I did find that what LinkedIn is great for and is, which is why I’m still kind of trying on LinkedIn. It’s great at getting me speaker opportunities. I get a lot of speaking opportunities there and speaking opportunities are a great way for me to to get clients. So that’s that’s another thing. 

So first thing is Instagram, LinkedIn, social media, speaking opportunities, whether it’s guesting on podcasts or doing, you know, workshops in masterminds and communities and that kind of thing. I’ve realized I need to be picky about the places that I go in and do workshops in. I find it often very hard to say no, and I realized recently, still working on this because I’m a people pleaser, as a mother of two kids who’s running a business, it’s not helpful for me to say yes to doing workshops in communities that are not going to be fruitful for my business, even if I just want to be nice to the host, because, you know, I don’t want to say no, because I have a problem saying no. But now I’m getting really strict with myself. And I’m asking a lot more questions about, well, who’s inside? Who’s it for? Thinking about, you know, is it going to really serve me? 

I have I have a query in my inbox waiting for me to respond to right now. And it’s someone who hosts the community for e-commerce brands. And while I used to work with a lot of e-commerce businesses, I don’t really anymore. So it’s also just protecting my time and saying yes to the right speaking opportunities. And then also my podcast. So I have a podcast now, which is another big change since the last time we talked. It’s called Mistakes that Made Me and I interview extraordinary business owners and ask them to share their biggest business mistake. It just interviewed Kira on it. And what’s interesting, I think about my podcasting strategy is that the people who listen to my podcast are generally people who are going to buy my digital products. They’re generally not going to hire me as a client. They’re not going to become my client. They’re not going to hire me because they want me to do their emails. My ideal clients are my guests. So I use my podcast to basically speak to my ideal clients and to get to know them and create relationships with my ideal clients. 

And so a lot of the people who I’ve invited onto my podcast, or as we didn’t have a relationship before, after speaking to them for an hour and a half and getting what is usually like the most amazing, you know, hour and a half coaching session for me, we, you know, we build a relationship and they’re my ideal client. And then, you know, the goal is for them to know who I am and what I do. And then, you know, hopefully the relationship builds from there. And even if they don’t hire me, they know who I am. And so when their friends who are usually just like them are talking about needing someone to help with their emails, hopefully I’m the first person they think of. And this actually just happened as well. I interviewed D.L. Sharon on season one, which was, I think it was two years ago now. And a friend of hers, who’s super successful, sent me a message and said, hey, I’m looking for someone to do my emails. D.L. told me that you do email. And I was amazed that she remembered from two years ago. But I think that’s the power of those conversations. So my podcast is helpful for that as well.

Rob Marsh: So you’ve shared a lot about where you’re showing up and some of the activities you’re doing. Talk a little bit about the messaging that you’re sharing there so that you are connecting with the audience that you’re sharing stuff with. What are you talking about?

Eman Ismail: Good question. And you know, I actually just got a brand voice and messaging guide done to get this down on paper, the things that I am talking about, my specific points of views. So here are a few things. The first thing is the fact that I’m an email expert. I’m not a generalist. My love, passion and expertise is email strategy and copy. And so even if I’m working on other projects behind the scenes, which I often am, like I do a lot of sales pages for my clients, I’m never talking about sales pages on my socials or anywhere else. You won’t ever hear me talk about that because I don’t want people to think of me as a sales page copywriter. That’s just a secret add on service that I’ll do for clients who need it. I want people to think of me as an email expert. So that’s the first thing. And I often talk about the benefit of you know, hiring an email expert specifically. I talk about my prices that working with me as an investment, but it’s a worthy investment. I share a lot of social proof. I like to call it organic social proof as well. So often in conversations with clients, you know, the little comments that they’ll make in the Google doc, any like really positive comments or emails when they, you just finished reading the sequence and they’re like, Oh my gosh, I loved it. That was amazing. Take a lot of screenshots of, of that. So it feels super natural and exciting. So there’s that. I talk a lot about how important customer experience is to me, because honestly, I think so much of what we do is about just creating a great customer experience and making sure our clients are happy. I’ve hired a lot of service providers over the past year and I feel like a lot of service providers just get it really wrong. I think a lot of people don’t understand that. 50% of what we do is the work we deliver and the other 50% is the experience we deliver and how we make our clients feel. I talk a lot about the fact that I am conversion focused so a lot of my clients will come to me and say I’m looking for a conversion copywriter I need someone who can help me convert people and that’s perfect because I don’t help people grow their email lists that’s not what I do I help them convert existing their existing audience. 

I talk a lot about the fact that we’re research driven as well. And so we were never winging it or just making up your sequence or your strategy. We’re using the information that we get from customer interviews and surveys and polls and review mind and that kind of thing. And that’s something actually that a lot of my clients say was a reason to work with me. A lot of people are surprised, like happily surprised in the sales core because they’ve hired copywriters before but they’ve never had anyone do any research. And I think for the people that do research, like when us as copywriters do research, it’s just totally normal to us. It’s just what we do. But I don’t think we realize how many people don’t do that. And so it’s still a really big deal for clients. So that’s something that wins over a lot of the people that I talk to. And then finally, actually, I am now officially a ConvertKit paid partner. I’m in a partnership with ConvertKit. And so I think that’s helped with some of my authority building. I love ConvertKit’s brand. So when they approached me to work with them as an influencer, basically, they send me a brief every month. And then I create three reels for them on Instagram. That’s been really exciting. I’ve really enjoyed working with them, building that relationship with them. But then also, it’s great for me, for people to see ConvertKit working with me.

Kira Hug: You mentioned service providers you’ve worked with don’t necessarily nail the experience and they get it wrong. Can you just speak more specifically to what are many of us, not all of us, getting wrong that could be easily corrected?

Eman Ismail:  Oh, OK. I mean, where to start? I recently hired someone to do something for me. I’m not going to say what or out the person, but I recently hired them to do something for me. And then they sent an off-boarding report, right? Only I didn’t know that they sent an off-boarding report because I never received it. It didn’t, it didn’t land in my inbox. I did not get this off-boarding report. So as far as I was concerned, they kind of did the project and then I just kind of didn’t hear from them. And I was like, are we, are we done? Is this finished? Like, are we good to, you know, say bye? I don’t, what’s happening? And she got immediately defensive, really started stressing out. I have so many other clients to work with. I’m really busy with other projects. I can’t answer these questions for you. If you want me to answer these questions, you’re going to need to hire me for a strategy session. And so. 

Rob Marsh: What? 

Eman Ismail: Yeah. And so I think that’s an extreme example. But I think the thing here is to Assume the best of your clients, of the people that you’re working with, because had she thought like, oh, like Eman should know this already. Like she should have got the report in her inbox. Maybe something happened. Maybe she didn’t see it. Maybe it went into her spam. Not even, you know, maybe it didn’t deliver, but maybe it went into spam. Maybe she didn’t see it. Let me just check and just make sure that everything’s OK. Instead of stressing out and thinking that I’m a terrible client, I’m being annoying, I’m being frustrating, I’m asking for more than I’m paying for. And that relationship didn’t end very well. But it turned out she thought she’d sent the report. I mean she still maintains she sent it—that’s great—but I didn’t receive it, so that’s unhelpful to me right. 

I think a good example of this is the time that one of my clients didn’t show up for a call and just kind of completely ghosted me. And so instead of me being frustrated and bear in mind, I was heavily pregnant at the time. So the last thing I wanted to do was to sit around waiting for a client who didn’t turn up on a call. But instead of being frustrated and annoyed, you just assume the best of the person and you think, you know what, maybe they forgot. It happens to all of us. Maybe something happened. 

So I actually sent her an email and said, hey, you missed our call. I just wanted to check if everything was OK. And she replied the next day and said she’d fainted and she’d been rushed to hospital. So imagine if I’d gone in there with a bad attitude or I was frustrated, which I think a lot of us do and feel, um, and we, we communicate, imagine if I’d gone into it like that, instead of just, you know, giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe something happened, you know, just being a bit more patient with our clients. I think another example is poor communication. 

I hired someone recently that actually things turned out really well with this person. I absolutely loved working with them in the end. I was really happy with what they delivered, but initially there was an issue where there was like, there was a communication issue. And then she sent me an email talking about how if I didn’t do X, she just wanted to remind me that this was all non-refundable. And it was, I was like, first of all, nothing is non refundable because I can go to like, I can go to my bank now and get the money back. So let’s not go there. Second of all, that you really escalated this it didn’t even need to go there you went so far beyond the point that we needed to go to so it’s really about um communication just communication and um I think things your communication being in proportion and in line with what the situation is a little bit yeah exactly because then what happened was I saw the word non-refundable and was not very pleased so the next few emails that we had the exchanges that we had didn’t go didn’t go very well um and so you know all of that could have been avoided by her just not using not just just not saying that like we didn’t need to talk about refunds like I was excited about working with you keep me excited about working with you like I’m I’m excited to get started um let’s let’s just be mindful of like what we say to clients and when we say to them as well is very important. So I used to think that some of this customer service stuff was common sense, honestly, but I realized it’s really not. And it’s something that you need to, I think, learn. It’s a skill. And I think I’m just really passionate and realized I always have been because I did. I’ve worked a lot in retail as a teen in my early 20s. I’m just passionate about customer service and creating a great customer experience. And so I think that’s been really great and being able to move that into my business with me.

Rob Marsh: Okay, so as we wrap up or get towards the end, I’m wondering, aside from the new website, the agency, what else are you working on in your business, Eman, that is new for 2024, maybe 2025?

Eman Ismail: I’m actually making a bit of a shift. I have, I sell digital products and digital courses. I have a 12 week self-study DIY course called Like a Boss that takes you from, or to take a freelancer to boss, business owner, someone who’s like, you know, lead in, you’re leading your clients, leading your projects. You really become that leader and strategist that your client needs. Uh, but since I started the podcast, I found that my audience isn’t just copywriters anymore. And so it was kind of weird to go on the podcast and say, okay, this thing is available, but it’s only for the copywriters. And if you’re interested in working with me, you’re not a copywriter, sorry, I can’t help you. So I’m working on shifting all of my digital products so that they’re not just for copywriters, but that they’re for service providers more generally. And so I have the big job of kind of going through my existing, my existing digital products, which is mostly just, it’s like a boss. I have designer VIP day, which is a, like a prerecorded two hour masterclass. I’m actually going to shift that as well. So I’m going to change the name probably to Design Your VIP Week and make it available to not just copywriters, make it available to all service providers. And so I think what’s happened is as I’ve just really got to know who I’m serving, who I enjoy serving as well, and really what makes the most sense for the way my business is going, I’m kind of going back and kind of course correcting and just making a few changes here and there. It’s great that, you know, the content is already there. I’ve already created these things. Now I just kind of need to refine them and make them available to a wider set of people. All right.

Kira Hug: I’m going to shift into a kind of lightning round as much as we can do lightning round. I want to fit in a handful of questions before we wrap and also be mindful of the time. So first is, you know, Instagram, you’re using Instagram. How are you using it? What’s working right now on Instagram?

Eman Ismail: Stories. Stories are working. I use stories a lot to show a lot of the behind the scenes of my business. But I think it’s really easy to fall into behind the scenes. the behind the scenes kind of stuff. And so it’s important to mix that great behind the scenes content and interesting stuff that people can’t really find anywhere else about you. But you also need to mix it with what you do and how to hire you and how to buy this and how to buy that you know. So definitely stories. I think that’s where the relationship building happens.

Kira Hug: Great. And what are you struggling with right now. I mean there’s so many things going well that you’ve shared with us but like at this level what is a struggle.

Eman Ismail:  What am I struggling with? I think probably systems and processes. So I’ve always been really proud of the fact that my systems and processes have been good and I think work really well. But every time you kind of change one thing in the business, your systems and processes have to change with it. So I think just really understanding that a business and certain systems and processes in a business is never something that is truly done it’s always evolving and you kind of really need to be open to the idea of constantly evolving things and changing things you know um so as I as I work towards becoming a micro-agency um all my systems and processes are changing all over again so I’m working really hard on on getting that back into into place. I think I feel like I have it down for when it’s just me, just me in the business. But now it’s like, OK, how do I make sure that I’m making this really easy and smooth for the other copywriters that I’m working with and also my assistant as well? How can I make this as easy as possible and almost as templated as possible for everyone involved?

Kira Hug: A couple more. We talked about VIP week briefly. We’ve talked about VIP days, VIP intensives on this show many times, but is there something new that you’re doing or something different that you think it’s worth us considering in our own businesses?

Email Ismail: I mean, I don’t know if this is helpful, but I think one thing I’m good at is doing the prep before the VIP week. So I make sure that everything is prepped before the VIP week. And that includes customer surveys as well. My clients get customer surveys in their VIP weeks, which I think is something that a lot of people don’t provide because you just don’t have enough time to do it all. And so what I do is I make sure that the research aspect has actually finished before we do the briefing call. So by the time we get on the briefing call, I have the briefing questionnaire. I have all the survey responses. And now I have a week to go through it and write it. So that prep part, knowing that that doesn’t have to be part of the actual VIP week was just game changing.

Kira Hug: And my last one, you have some great partnerships. You mentioned ConvertKit, HubSpot, right? You’re part of the HubSpot podcast network. You have other partnerships as well. Like, what do you think? What is the question here? How could we look at partnerships in a way that you have to level up in our businesses? How can we approach it or think differently, think bigger about partnerships?

Eman Ismail: Yeah, I think a lot of the time people look to like brand deals and partnerships and are looking for the instant kind of monetary return. And I think often it’s so much more than that. I think if you can think about it in a kind of like long term, I like ConvertKit pay me, HubSpot doesn’t pay me, ConvertKit pay me, but you know it’s not like I don’t know what Charli D’Amelio is being paid you know, but it’s really a long term, a long game right so I’m not just thinking about the money and the invoicing that the invoicing that’s happening I’m thinking about well how does this help me in the long term like the authority, the authority that I get to borrow from ConvertKit, the way that it helps me look like even more of an email expert, a trusted email expert, I feel like that’s even more valuable than the money they pay me. It’s so much more valuable than the money they pay me and it’s much more, you know, it’s much more long lasting as well.

And also, again, it’s not just about what they’re paying me now, it’s also about building those relationships. You know, I spoke to ConvertKit about potentially sponsoring my podcast and they were like, you know, we don’t, we don’t sponsor podcasts right now. Um, we’re not doing that right now. I was like, okay, great. And then they sent me another email that was like, well, actually, can we just ask your rates? And so it just goes to show that again, they’ve not, they’re not sponsoring my podcast. They’ve not said they’re going to sponsor my podcast just to be clear, but it just goes to show that like building those relationships and sowing the seeds and, and getting in the right rooms with the right people. Um, all that stuff really, really matters. It’s really important. Even like with the HubSpot podcast network, They don’t pay me, but one of the things we have is a Slack group for all the creators. Amy Porterfield’s team were in there up until recently. They just left the Hopes Power Podcast Network, but they were in there up until recently. Like Jay Clouse and like other amazing creators that I usually would never get the opportunity to talk to or be around or learn from are in there asking questions and answering questions. And it’s just so, so valuable. It’s more valuable than being paid, you know? So don’t just think about how much they pay me? Or will they pay me? How much money will I get? Some things are just worth so much more than money.

Rob Marsh: That feels like a pretty good place to stop. Even if people want to connect with you, see the new website when it comes out, where should they go?

Eman Ismail: You can find me at imancopico.com. You can find me on Instagram at imancopico. Or head over to my podcast Mistakes That Made Me. I have interviewed Keira, I have interviewed Laura Belgrave, Tarzan Kay, Belinda Weaver, Amy Posner, Kirstie Phampton, a whole bunch of amazing copywriters who are all sharing their biggest business mistake.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Thank you.

Kira Hug: Thank you.

Eman Ismail: Thank you.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Iman Ismail. I want to add just a little bit more color to some of the ideas that we talked about. We’ve already gone pretty long with Iman, so I’m not going to add a ton here, but I want to go back to the idea of positioning yourself as a strategist. That’s what I mentioned in the intro. It’s a big part of what we talked about and what exactly strategy is. So as you think about strategy, it’s not the same thing as tactics. It’s not trying to think through how do we get somebody to respond? Really, strategy is about thinking about the goals, the end points, the things that we want to happen. And so as Iman was sharing, before she moved into strategy, she would be asked for five emails, rely on the client to determine what those emails needed to say, and she would write the emails and turn them over. But afterwards, You spend time doing research, possibly doing voice of customer research or surveys, but trying to understand the goal, trying to understand where the person who’s reading the email, or if you’re doing sales page strategy or website strategy, whatever, the person that is engaging with your copy, where they need to go, what is the result? And not just the result, but the transformation, the thing that they need to experience. And as you start thinking about that, there’s thinking that needs to happen around what beliefs need to change. How do we shift them from where they are today to where they need to be in order to make the right decisions? All of that is strategy and goes way beyond tactics or the actual creation of copy. 

Another piece of that is objections, you know, trying to figure out why people are going to respond in certain ways and how to overcome those objections, or at least help them overcome the objections themselves. So the end result, of course, of being a strategist as opposed to just a copywriter is that you can charge higher prices, you can work with better clients who understand the value of what you’re bringing to the table. And so as we talk about this, showing up as a strategist, not just showing up as an order taker, showing up as a copywriter who solves bigger business problems and doesn’t just say, yes, I can write that for you. That’s what this means, and it can make a massive change to your business. So I just wanted to draw a line into that. 

One other thing, we talked a little bit about building your authority. This is a theme, of course, we come back to over and over on the podcast and in so many of the different training groups that we do. But you need to be marketing yourself every day. You need to be putting yourself in front of your clients wherever they are. That’s not necessarily on social media. It’s wherever your clients are. And if you’ve got a niche that doesn’t live on Instagram, figure out where they are. But you need to be in front of them every day. That might be with email. That might be with a printed newsletter of some kind. It might be showing up at conferences and events. wherever they are, you need to be appearing in front of them so that you’re seen, you’re recognized as an authority, as an expert in the thing that you do. And it helps if your message is focused. In Eamon’s case, she only does emails or she only does email strategy. In my case, I usually, not always, but usually focus on sales pages and the impact that that has for my client’s business. But you figure out what it is that you want to be known for, and it can go way beyond a niche. and focus on that. You need to be showing up, sharing things like your social proof, your customer experiences, the research that you come across, the work that you do, building your authority every single day. That’s how you start attracting clients so that you don’t need to be cold pitching or on this constant treadmill of fighting clients every single day or every single week. 

Okay. We want to thank Eman for joining us to talk about showing up as a strategist, about building authority, working with other writers. You can find Eman at eamoncopyco.com and be sure to check out her podcast, Mistakes That Made Me. And she mentioned Kira’s a recent guest on that podcast. So you’ll want to check out that episode in particular. And I’m hoping someday that I might be on that podcast too. We’ll see. 

That’s the end of The Copywriter Club podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or an associate who might also get something from it. Maybe learn something that you learned. You can always leave a review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts.

 

When it comes down to it, the thing most copywriters want to build is a business that is high-margin (it makes money) and fun to run (it’s enjoyable). But achieving that goal is harder it appears. So we invited Ian Stanley to join us for the 392nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked Ian about how he did it—created a business that is profitable and fun. We also asked him about sales coaching, breaking up his partnership, his approach to email and his new comedy special. To hear what Ian had to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: How do you create a high-margin company that is fun to run? That’s pretty much the goal we all share… earn enough money for the lifestyle we want—however you define that—that’s the high margin part. And enjoy life doing whatever it is you do, from work to whatever you do in your personal time—that’s the fun to run part.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter, entrepreneur and comedian Ian Stanley. This is actually Ian’s second appearance on the podcast, so we caught up on how his business has changed in the past couple of years. And as we talked about that, we asked Ian about sales training, breaking up a partnership, commedy and buidling a company that makes money and is fun to run. One caution about this episode, Ian likes to swear. We’ve cut most of that out of the interview in order not to offend the censors at Apple who like to put an explicit label on anything rated higher than PG. But if we missed any, we apologize. That’s just who Ian is and how he shows up.  

One other thing before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, let me give you two reasons to jump in now. During the month of May we have two incredible bonuses for members. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank, and will be sharing this usually-paid masterclass with members of the underground… but only for one week in May. And we have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. It works for non-book products too. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to paid subscribers to his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. But he offered to give it—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May in The Underground. If you’ve been thinking of joining, these are two very good reasons to jump in now—if you were to purchase either one of these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. And I haven’t even mentioned all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with these two bonuses. Visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Ian.

Kira Hug: All right, Ian, let’s jump in, not with your story, because we know part of your story from our last interview, but let’s just start with changes, at least one change you’ve made over the last four years. Maybe we talked to you four years ago, Rob, do you know? We’ll say four years ago.

Ian Stanley: Something like that.

Kira Hug: Over four years ago.

Rob Marsh: I mean, it was definitely, it was what? Episode 208. So it’s closing in on four years anyways.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what is one big change you’ve made to your business since we last chatted?

Ian Stanley: To my business? I feel like little businesses like this change constantly. So honestly, the biggest change that’s happened is my business partner and I, so basically I was living in LA. I’d gone there to pursue standup. And then this COVID thing happened and stand up itself was, you know, in question. Cancel culture was at its absolute peak. I had a guy tell me that I was, I said in an ad, I said, I’m a white man. Not exactly. And he said, you can’t say that. And I went, I, what do you mean? That’s a fact. What am I supposed to say? Um, and that’s when I was like, Jesus, this is getting bad. While I was in LA watching nonviolent protests, violently, uh, protest from my actual window. Um, and so I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I left LA and I mean, it sounds weird to say now, cause I feel like standup is almost bigger than ever in certain ways. Um, But it died off for a while there. And I think that the worse the world is, the more important stand up is. Because it’s just funnier in ways, too, because things are so insane. It’s easy to write material when the world itself is a ridiculous place full of people getting mad at white men that say that they’re white. So I moved to Idaho and said, OK, I’m going to focus on business now for the next little while here, because There’s no standup. And so my business partner and I went hard into like, let’s build a big business. Let’s do this whole thing. So we ended up with, you know, selling high ticket stuff over the phone. We had, you know, six or seven phone sales people. We were running a bunch of traffic on YouTube. 

I was coaching the sales team, which I’m very good at, but I despise. It’s basically like being a therapist. And basically if one of your phone sales people,, if his wife says something mean that morning or he doesn’t sleep right, you lose money, you know, and, and you realize that like every, or they just have one bad call or whatever. And it was just not for me. So, uh, And I know this is a slightly longer story than you may have asked for, but it’s a pretty relevant one, I think. So last March, about a year ago, my business partner and I had been watching The Office for the, I don’t know, sixth time all the way through. And I had this thought, what would happen if we were in an office for eight hours a day? Like, how much would we actually get done? How good would that be? And so we had rented this house we called The Hoffice. So it was just like a home office that two of our employees lived in and that we would work at. So we did this. I was like, let’s just try it for a week. 

So we go in Monday. We had a great time. I’m like, oh my God, we got so much done. This was really cool. We go in Tuesday. And by the end of Tuesday, I’m like, this is perhaps the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I hate this. I hate this so much. And because and there’s only like seven of us, but they’ll ask me questions, ask Kim questions, who is my business partner and you don’t get anything done. And I went home and I was like the most tired I’ve ever been. And I understand that for anybody here, they can make Europe pathetic. How can you not work one eight hour day? I don’t, I’ve never had—the closest thing I had to a real job—I would be there for like five to six hours and I was writing copy and I would, you know, I figured out my schedule in a way that worked for me. And I was just so exhausted and depleted and annoyed. And I just, I was like, there’s something’s wrong. Like, this is not right. And the phone sales is such a nightmare.

I would recommend most people, if you want to do a high ticket phone sales program, just understand that either you will be miserable for an extended period of time, and then And then you maybe will have a sales manager who will do it for you. And then they’ll probably quit. And then you’ll lose all your money. And I wasn’t actually miserable. I’m a very happy person. So it’s very relative. But for me, having to do one hour of coaching calls a day is like a non-negotiable. I can’t do it. I just can’t do that part of it. And so that night, I was just like, something’s got to change. And I was so tired. It was like my bones we’re giving up. 

And I was just thinking like, someone’s got to change here. And I wrote out this plan for how my business partner and I could split up the business and we could stop doing phone sales. And I  had all this energy, like a huge burst of energy at like nine at night, just like, Holy, this could be it. This could work. But then I’m like, Oh my God, I got to tell my business partner that I don’t want to do this anymore. And we’re best friends. And so the next day we go to the office at the end of my K let’s, uh, Let’s go get a drink. And we go get a drink. And I’m like, hey, man, I don’t want to do this anymore in this way. And he’s like, oh, my God, me neither. That’s so exciting. 

And so we basically just realized that because we were doing a few hundred grand a month and but the margins are never that like, you keep growing and you’re like, why don’t we have more money? Like, I’m making less money working six to eight hours a day sometimes than I was making when I was working an hour or two a day and had all this free time for these other things and didn’t have all these people to manage. And so we figured out this breakup plan and he took the email list management agency and I took back the company and it was glorious. Beautiful. And so since May of last year, so nearly a year now, I’ve been running it on my own again. It’s been super easy and fun and profitable. And then I recorded my first comedy special in November. I released it five days ago. It premiered. And so that’s a huge, that’s like, you know, as a comic, that’s kind of what you work towards. After taking basically a couple years off from LA to move here and not really having places to perform, it’s a completely changed trajectory. And so I’m primarily doing that and then running the business as well. So a lot of changes. Living in Idaho instead of LA, a very different vibe, much prettier, much less traffic. much cleaner air, much nicer people, much less human feces on the ground. There’s not even dog poop on the ground here. Like there’s not, I have not seen trash in downtown Boise. Like if somebody drops like a bottle, they pick it up in LA people, they throw it at you. And so, yeah, lots of changes.

Rob Marsh: Wow. Yeah. Boise is one of the cleanest places I’ve ever been. I live in Salt Lake, which is another clean city. Yeah.

Ian Stanley: Your air quality is so questionable.

Rob Marsh: In the summer, if there’s a fire or in the winter, if it gets really cold, we actually didn’t have an inversion this year, which is kind of nice. That’s nice. This has been our best air year in forever. But we didn’t come on the podcast to talk about our air.

Ian Stanley: I don’t know, man. This could be riveting podcast content. They’re like, wow, I went to listen to this thing and they talked about the weather.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Why is there so much smoke in the Salt Lake Valley since the 1840s? Who knows? I have some questions based, I mean, there’s about five different things that I want to ask as we go through this. But I want to jump back to what you were doing coaching the sales team, because I think this is something most copywriters don’t do. We might have a sales job at some point where we learn those sales skills. But when you’re building a sales team, you’re instilling those skills into people so that they can sell. So even though you didn’t love that part of the job, what were the things that you were teaching your sales team in order to make them better at selling? How did you get that stuff into their brains?

Ian Stanley: That’s a good question. Well, well done. I, uh, that’s a great one. Um, I actually enjoyed doing it. Like I would enjoy being on with them and watching them change and watching their energy shift and, and, but What pissed me off was just it was the complete anti-lifestyle business because literally my entire business and traffic was based on human emotion and human energy, basically. Like, if this person’s… Like, any split test you ran, you didn’t know if it was valid because it might have been that salesman number two’s wife drank again. And he didn’t actually even take calls. But you know, like so many little things that would or they just lost confidence for a week. Or there was a lot of two steps forward, one step back of like learning some strategy to selling, but then falling back on their confidence. And so I’d say the main stuff that I could tell that I thought that’s different than what most people do, because I was working with Cole Gordon, who’s a buddy of mine who I’d consulted for, and we joined his group and It’s really good sales training, like the tactics and techniques. For me, I was basically just coaching their beliefs and their belief in themselves. But ultimately, the way that I sell is very different than most people. And we did not do the high-pressure, douchey, fake tactics and things. I was very adamant that people had to leave the call feeling good either way, because we did some secret shopping of other people’s calls, and it was heavily shame-based. So it was pretty much like, they’d be really nice to the person. And then towards the end of the call, if the guy was like, I don’t think I don’t know if I can do it right now. They’d be like, Oh, do you want? Oh, you want your kids?

Rob Marsh: They really, they really said that.

Ian Stanley: Honestly, not far off certain ones. And it’d be like, Oh, you want your kids to think that dad’s a pussy? Is that what it is?

Rob Marsh: Or even provide for your family, like that kind of stuff.

Ian Stanley: Yeah. Yeah. Like very much like, Oh, I thought that you said you wanted to change your life. Now you’re saying that you don’t. It sounds like this is why you’re going to be a loser forever. Like stuff that’s like, we had one of my employees had gone on a call and he literally felt bad about himself for like two days. Now he was, you know, had his own insecurities and stuff, but I mean, they were like to the point where he was feeling terrible for a while about this. And I was like, dude, that’s on them. That’s not you. And so it was about selling in a really authentic way. And so really the most useful thing I would teach them, and I think that applies to copy and any form of selling is that we’re not selling a result, we’re selling a feeling. And that feeling is typically in this case is freedom. 

So teaching people how to write emails for other companies and you know, and our product has like the highest success rate of any I’ve seen at least. And, um, you know, so we knew, we know it works. We know that it’s legit and it’s, it doesn’t require investments. There’s also not all the bull like, Oh, here’s my $5,800 product. Now you need my coaching program and upsell. It’s like, here’s the program and there’s no expenses. There’s no ad costs. There’s nothing. So we felt good about all that. But it was really like, What I would tell them is figure out the thing they actually want and then just talk about that thing. So as an example, it would be most people think they’re selling a program on how to write emails to make money. And I’d say, that’s not what you’re selling. 

Let’s take an example of one guy’s. I keep missing my son’s soccer matches, right? I just want to go to my son’s soccer matches and be there for those. So now we’re no longer selling. So, and that would be, and that’s the advantage of phone sales and one-on-one selling is discovering the actual thing underneath the thing, right? So they say, well, I want to quit my job. Okay. Well, why do you want to quit your job? Well, I just, I don’t like my boss and I don’t make enough money and I don’t have freedom. Okay. Well, what would you like, what would you like look like if you didn’t have your boss and you only had to work two hours a day? Well, I’d live in a different house. I’d, I’d be able to, you know, hang out with my family and I’d stop missing my son’s soccer matches. Cause I keep having to go in on Saturdays. And you go, that’s the thing. That’s the thing that this person actually wants, because my goal is to get them to stop thinking in words and start thinking in pictures. So if instead of a thought of, I’m going to not have this job, instead in their mind, because it takes them out of their logical mind, when I can get them to just imagine being at the soccer field. 

Or like another example, guys, like I just want to have a house with a big enough yard so I can play with my kids. you know, it’s whatever that thing is that they say is the thing or somebody back, I want to buy this car for my dad. Okay. So what color is that car? Okay. What’s the, what’s the make of it? Okay. So just for a second, just imagine your dad behind the wheel of that car. How does that feel? It feels amazing. That’s what I want for you. And so it would, and then basically throughout the sales process, it’s bringing them back to not to 10 grand a month, It’s bringing them back to the car for their dad or not missing the soccer matches. And so it was really just a very human approach to finding out what a person actually wanted and then continuously reminding them that that’s what they were actually buying. 

They weren’t buying a course. They were buying this future that they had said that they wanted. So that was a big part of it. And then Honestly, the other part was I would have them meditate before their calls. I had like a three minute meditation I created for them to just shift their energy because ultimately sales is just a transfer of feelings. And if your feelings and energy are off, then you could say all the right and completely fail. And like I sold the first 50 people into the program myself and I closed 49 out of the 50 people. And, and there’s partially because I was the guru and the face of it and whatever, but I just treat people like people. And I had one guy who was like, oh, I don’t know if this is right for me. And I was like, OK, cool. He’s like, I got to talk to my wife. And what guys will say is they go, oh, you have to talk to your wife? 

Oh, that’s cool. I didn’t know she wore the pants in the relationship. That’s interesting. And they’ll go, oh, I would just go, oh, that’s awesome. Definitely you should talk to her. The only question I would ask you is, what would it feel like? where buying a program for $5,000 was such a small, inconsequential amount of money to you that you wouldn’t have to have that conversation. And then I’d go, go talk to her though. I’m not trying to then close. And I let them actually go. And then a day later, the guy comes back and say, yo, I’m in. Instead of me having that desperation, it’s that commission breath. That was so much of it was having them not come from a place of desperation and the need to sell because the second you get on the call and you’re in that mindset, the person on the other end can feel it and they are out. We’ve all been there. We’ve all experienced that salesperson who you’re like, this guy, like I think he needs this or he’s not eating and it just turns you off completely. So it was largely, and this isn’t to say that the tactic side isn’t important and understanding price reveals and you know, building rapport and things, but ultimately all of that can almost be transcended by just giving up. That was really, I was like, remember that even if in the beginning you think they don’t have the money, you think they’re a bad candidate, you think whatever, just treat them like a person, care about them. And you may be surprised cause this person’s like, Oh, I make a thousand dollars a month. And then you find out at the end of the call that they got in a car accident and have $25,000 in their account from a settlement. And they can’t afford it, and they’re a good person. And so it’s like, yeah, it’s largely just managing their feelings, which is.

Kira Hug: It sounds like you’re really, really good at sales, 49 out of 50, and coaching, and helping change the beliefs in other people. But from your story, it sounds like that’s not something that you enjoy as much, or it was draining you.

Ian Stanley: I hate scheduling calls. I hate scheduling. I hate things on my schedule. So like the idea that I, yeah. And it was also like, well, the best time to do it is in the morning before they start their day. And I was like, yeah, but I want to write in the morning and like have my life, you know? And so it just really wasn’t congruent with my personal lifestyle. If you’re willing to work a lot more and even so like literally if you didn’t talk to them for a few days you would watch sales go down like it’s it’s that fickle of a beast where like they need to be motivated and it’s largely therapy is what it is it’s just really working on the individual more so because until they get to that point of sales skill once they had the skill like they know how to sell they would just start doubting themselves or they would you know, get worried about not making enough sales or they’d get arrogant. That was one that happened is that was a big mistake as they start to get overconfident and they would go, Oh, I don’t need to ask all these questions anymore. I can just go on and close them. And you’re like, no, you’re now mistaking the result for, you’re not realizing that all those little pieces of why you sold them as well. So I’d rather just sell it for $2,000 on a video. and not have to have anybody in the way.

Kira Hug: Yeah. So, I mean, you realize this is not for me and then you pivoted. How do you know when it’s just simply not for you or you need to push through and you need to get to the next stage and that it could be for you if you just rearrange a couple of things or when you just need to jump and tell your partner this isn’t working?

Ian Stanley: I think there’s two things for me. One is, do you actually want the end goal? And that was what really became clear to me was, I don’t care. I don’t care if this business does 20 million a year. That doesn’t matter to me. And I don’t want 25, 30 employees. I want, I’d rather have 100,000 a month in profit, work in an hour to a day, then build this bigger thing and do all this stuff. So that’s the, I mean, I think so many people are climbing a mountain they don’t actually want to get to the top of. And then they think that committed and that, you know, well, I’ve already, I’m already here. I’ve already done all this. I can’t change now. I mean, there’s a difference between quitting and giving up. And I think it’s a huge distinction. Giving up is when you stop doing something and you still want the end result. Quitting is when you realize that you don’t actually want the end result. And quitting is a incredible skill to have because it’s so many people just do a thing they don’t want to do because they think, oh, that’ll make me a quitter. We should be a quitter. You just shouldn’t ever give up. I’ve never given up at something. If I want the goal, I’ve never given up. It doesn’t matter how much pain I’m in with physical stuff that I’ve done, my crazy endurance stuff or whatever. I won’t give up. But if you decide you don’t want the end goal, then you should quit. And so that’s a big one. And then if energetically and like, just like instinctually, it feels just very wrong and you’re fighting your nature. Like what I struggled with for a while was I’ve lived, a large portion of my life now based on the concept of surrender. And so, which like the main book is The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer. And I’ve read it like 18 times. And so you sometimes ask yourself, where is the surrender? And am I surrendering to myself and my preferences? And so it’s like one of his things is there’s a really good thing that I’d recommend anybody listen to. It’s like, I think it’s on Audible. It’s a one of his surrender audios around like work or surrender in the workplace or business or something like that. And he goes, it’s like an hour and a half. And he talks about how the primary function of business is to let go of parts of yourself. And so, and business will do that, you know, working with other people and all these things. But what I realized is I was like, okay, well the surrender is I don’t want to do this. So therefore I have to let go and just do it. And it’s like, no, the real surrender was I’m doing the wrong thing. And I have to let go of the business in its current way and let go of the relationship with my business partner and deal with that and move forward. So I think if it, if it just feels off energetically and you’re constantly tired and you constantly don’t want to work, you’re probably doing the wrong thing. Like if I start writing, I’m working on a novel right now and a screenplay. And then like with standup, it does, I have to make myself stop. doing those things. Like I’m like, I should write an email for my business. One more scene. I’ve got this idea, you know, and it’s like, and it’s not to say that all work is going to just pull you through it and all of that, but it’s, it’s that like, if it doesn’t naturally pull you in some way, there’s probably something wrong, you know? And it’s, it’s probably not the right thing. So it was just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and watching. And also I think another huge one is actually just like, It kind of fits in with, are you climbing the wrong mountain? Is this someone else’s dream that I’m trying to achieve? And do I want the lifestyle of the people who are where I think I want to be? So I’d go to the event with all the guys doing a bunch of phone sales. And I’d talk to them. And even at the events, when I go to events, I’m partying. I’m having a good time. I’m drinking. I’m bringing the fun. I’m not that worried about the next day. And these guys, they’re like, especially at this event, like, Oh, no, I gotta, I gotta be dialed in. And I realized it’s actually because running a phone sales business is so challenging that you need the event to do it. And you got to be focused in there. But all of them either worked constantly and weren’t very happy. Or if they didn’t work constantly, they did for an extended period of time. And then they have a sales manager. And almost every person there had fired what had had one of their sales managers quit. And then they had to restart and say like, man, none of these people are that stoked. You know, they all want to either sell the company or be done with what they’re doing. So why would I want to do that? You know, and so that’s part of it is just looking at other people who are where you think you want to be actually where you want to be.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk a little bit about the discussion with your partner about breaking up because clearly he also was feeling something the same. It was mutual. But what was that discussion like and your mindset, his mindset going into it, coming out of it? How do you make sure that, you know, it stays amicable? I’m sure it helps the fact that you both were kind of done. But there’s a lot of risk going into a conversation like that where the other person takes a lot of offense, maybe it doesn’t go well. So I’m just interested in that whole discussion and how that all came together.

Ian Stanley: Yeah. I mean, I just knew I was like, we got to talk about this. So I had written out my idea on what that breakup could look like. I think that’s an important piece is like doing some math on what something might look like if you do separate. And so once we said, and he was like, dude, me too. It was like a huge relief, you know, in general. And then I was like, I have some ideas on how we could do it. And here’s what I was thinking. Cause he had 33% of the company and I had 66 and I had run the company for like four years before we partnered up. So, and it was my face and my name. Um, and so it was creating that win-win where I was also just like overly generous with, what I was willing to give away. And I wanted it to feel like we both walked away legitimately happy, not like one of us won. You know, you go, I won the breakup. I won the split. It’s like, no, no, no, we both won. And so, I mean, I think that was a big part of it was having an actual laid out kind of plan. of what this could, and it was a loose plan, but it ended up being pretty much exactly that when we did split it off. But we ended up, we had a great night. We had like as much fun as we had had in a long time that night, just drinking and hanging out because we were like, Oh, this is so freeing. We don’t need to go hire more people and do all this stuff. Like this makes sense. Um, and we did it over a couple of months. We didn’t rush it. It wasn’t like, yo, we’re done. Let’s finish this. It was very much like, Hey, let’s take our time. And. make sure this is right. And the hardest part was honestly for the employees, making sure that they understood where things were and trying to get everybody into a good position. So like one, I kept on one sales guy, but like the other one, I placed him with a girl I know who he ended up, he’s been killing it and doing ridiculously well there. He’s better off than he was with us. That felt really good. Another guy were like, I will help, we’ll help you get a job stuff. We didn’t have to do, but like, Making sure that each person still had a place to go if they weren’t part of the future plan, I think was a bigger thing almost because we just feel, we felt responsible for them. Even though you learn that employees will leave you at the first drop of a hat if they, you know, certain ones, if they find a better deal and you’re like dragging along this limping critter and then they get some off and you’re like, wow, why did I do that? Why did I, you know, and it’s just, it is that you should be fast to fire and slow to hire, but I’ve known that for years and basically practiced fast to hire and slow to fire. So now the team it’s, is literally just people I love. And that’s one of the coolest things is like when you hire, here’s a hit. One of the biggest lessons was when we were scaling, cause we’re scaling, you know, and you hear all the, we’re scaling bro. No expenses are real when you’re scaling. Every little software, every mastermind, every course, everything that falls across your lap when you’re scaling is not an expense, bro. It’s an investment, dude. And then you realize one day you’re like, Jesus, we’re spending $25,000 a month on these things we’re not using that we thought were important. And so I think there’s a delusion in this entrepreneurial scaling mindset that’s a little bit in the same way you’re hiring people that aren’t actually quite right. We’ll find a place where we need we need a CFO for our company that has really basic finances. Let’s go pay somebody five grand a month for an hour of work a month because it feels cool to have a CFO. Like, what are we doing? So, yeah, I think the biggest thing was just coming at it from a place of genuinely wanting us to both feel like we won when the breakup was over.

Kira Hug: And then how did you approach setting the vision for the next phase of your business when you were able to make that pivot and go off on your own again?

Ian Stanley: I mean, I think it really just came down to running a profitable company, like a really high margin company that’s fun to run. Part of the, probably the biggest problem with having a business partner and Cam could listen to this and be absolutely fine with me saying this. was this sense of guilt that you have when somebody else is a partner where like, it would snow. And I’m like, I really want to go snowboarding this morning, but I want him to know that I’m doing, and I don’t want him to think I’m not working. So therefore I’m not going to go snowboard when it’s just drops out seven inches of powder. And it’s not because I’m actually going to do less. It’s because of this weird guilt feeling that you want to, you feel beholden to this person. And so you want to really like, No, you want them to know that you’re pushing it and that you’re working and you’re doing stuff. And by doing that, at least for me personally, I ended up working way less than when I have all my freedom and I go snowboard and I go travel and I go do all the things I want to do. So that was definitely a big part of it was the vision was just, I want to do whatever I want whenever I want, which is what I had done for most of my life. And so it became, let’s run a high margin, you know, fun business. And I made a rule, I’m just not going to hire anybody new unless it’s absolutely necessary. We’re going to grow with just these people that I like, and I’m not going to just hire based on some concept of, oh, we need more people or this or that. And then for me, it was really just what lets me do stand up and what lets me focus on what matters to me most, which is stand up. So if there’s something that counteracts, because part of that, too, is when you have a business partner, that’s a big owner of the business, you feel like they should be involved in each thing you do in some way, and you want them to know, even though he’s like, no, no, I don’t care about you doing stand-up or this or that, you have this little part of you that’s like, yeah, but just so you know, this isn’t taken away from the business. And now it’s like, it doesn’t matter. It’s me. It’s my company. I can do what I want. And as long as I have the freedom and time to do stand-up and make YouTube videos and focus on that, then That’s the main thing.

You know, I’ve thought about getting rid of the business at times because I really like it. I like what I do. I love the testimonials. I love helping people. I love people saying, Oh, I just quit. Literally yesterday I was going to call him. This guy’s like, I quit my job. And I’m like, Oh, how long did you have it? Thinking he was going to be like a couple months. He’s like five years. And I quit and I’m full time doing email copy now. And I’m like, that feels great. And I love that. And that’s why I want my products to exist and to do that. But then I’m like, what would it be like to wake up and only do YouTube videos and standup? But then you also realize, well, if you have to make money from the thing that you love more than anything, like what’s so weird about standup is like people like, what would you do for free? What job would you do if nobody paid you? I paid to do standup. Like, Imagine a job you love so much that you would actually pay to do that job. Not only would you do it for free, you would pay.

So it’s like, okay, well, what situation can I create where that’s the main thing that I get to do? And if I didn’t have the amount of money coming in I had, then I’d have to take weird gigs or like, have this pressure of this. I think there’s certain things where you should burn the boats, go all in, put you back against the wall, make it work. But I would also have to replace like, I don’t know, 50 grand a month. So to have suddenly have 50 grand a month coming in from stand up in YouTube is not the same as 10 or 20. And so what it does is it actually gives me this insane amount of freedom to be able to do stand up purely from a place of creation until it’s making 100 grand a month. then I can replace, you know, the other thing. So I think it’s really like, it’s given me a ton of gratitude for this business where I’m like, I see these other comics and the second that shows up, they’re walking up to the owner of the club to make sure they’re getting paid, you know, their $1,200 or whatever it is. And I’m like, I don’t even take my future pay. I don’t care. Take my head. I don’t care. Like, this is fine. I’m just happy to be here and doing this. So it’s given me like a whole different approach where I don’t have to worry about the thing that most people are worried about, which is paying their bills and taking random gigs and random places and, you know, trying to make ends meet while they’re trying to build their audience. And they can’t necessarily hire a video guy or, you know, whatever these things might be. So it’s, it’s really just creating a, an environment for myself where I get to do as much of the fun as possible.

Rob Marsh: So Ian, you mentioned the goal really is to create this high margin company that’s fun to run. I think a lot of people like have that as the goal. So in some ways, this question is maybe an outline for a course, a future course of some kind, but what is the Ian Stanley formula for creating a high margin company that is fun to run? You know, the, the three steps or the 10 steps, or, you know, what are the pieces that we need to put in place in order to create that?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, that’s a good question. So, you know, actually had a real big realization, like a month and a half ago that we were running pretty much all of our traffic, not all well, not for the last six months or so, but all of our traffic to 90 days to freedom, which is the $2,000 course that teaches people how to write emails for other people. The business model that I’ve followed for ages is basically run ads to an opt in page, hopefully near break, even on day zero, and then make all of the money on the back end through the email list. partially through an order responder and then through more or less daily emails, selling other stuff, either stuff I’ve already created or new stuff. Honestly, the biggest thing is whenever I create new products, we’re really profitable and we lost sight of that as we’re trying to like, when you’re trying to scale a thing and you’re like, Oh, this is our main product. Let’s not get distracted by creating new products. I like creating new products. It’s really easy for me. I have like 60 courses and every time I do one, we make a bunch of money and it’s all profit. And so when I lost sight of creating products is when we would have low emergence. Because even if it’s an affiliate offer I do or promoting something I’ve promoted before, when I create something new, it’s just going to do really well. And it’s all profit.

And so basically it’s, can I get leads that are going to break even within right now on Facebook and Instagram, it’s like seven days, seven to 10, and then just make money on the backend from all of that. But basically with the 2k offer, we were breaking even on the front, but we didn’t have a backend. Like I don’t have a $7,500 coaching program because I just don’t want to coach people on how to get clients. It doesn’t interest me at all. Um, So the biggest difference that’s happened now is we built this AI tool. Actually, this guy built an AI tool, a customer of mine kind of behind my back, more or less. He went and took all my emails, trained this AI model, built this thing, sent it to me. And I was like, bro, I hate AI. Like, I don’t want to do this. I’m not interested. But that was honestly what I said. And I was just like, I mean, if I hadn’t, if I didn’t do stand up or make money online, I’d have a fax machine and no cell phone. I’d have a landline and a fax machine and no email and I would just live my life. And so AI to me was in a way not really a threat to writing because I found it to be so bad that I didn’t think it was a threat at all. It was more like annoying and who knows what’s going to happen with it. I had fiddled with it a little, but I just didn’t really enjoy it. And so he actually had sent me this tool and for a few months I just, I like looked at it and I was like, I don’t, I just don’t care. And then we were at our annual meeting in January and I was like, let’s just pull it open and play with it and see if it’s something that we could use to make selling 90 days a lot easier. Because the biggest pain point people have is getting their first client. And he built this client outreach tool where you can put in like, You fill out like six fields, it takes like 30 seconds and it spits out an email that’s like a custom personality driven email to this company. And I put in this fake coffee company and it wrote this email and literally each of us in the room is like, holy, this is like more human than most humans.

Okay, let’s do something with this. And so over the next month and a half or so, we figured out how to get the tool actually ready to go. And then we launched it. And I’ve never had such good testimonials like ever, like people are literally just like, I’m a subscriber for life. I’m never not going to be paying for this. It’s so good. And so it’s like, okay, well, let’s reassess kind of where we’re at. And so literally over the past month and a half, we have restructured the entire company where the sole goal of our business is to get people into the AI subscription. And there are people who are anti-AI and that’s fine. That’s kind of one of the cool parts of the story. I was anti-AI like I hated it. And here I am like, and it’s not to say that it’s going to replace a really good copywriter’s writing. Like I like writing, I’m still going to write, but it gives me ideas and sentences and lines and things. But for a normal person, they can literally put in two sentences and it will write like a more personality driven human email than most people write. And so to help like a normal business owner or a person trying to get clients, I’m like, Oh, this really actually works.

And so we’ve restructured basically everything we’re doing now is if we’re getting front end leads, are they people who could use the AI? If yes, we’ll run that traffic. If no, we won’t run that traffic, even if it was profitable, even if it was attracting people in the money space or something, but they, they weren’t email driven around it. Like then we’re not going to pull them in. So now that’s what’s really cool is this company has never been sellable because, I mean, theoretically it’s sellable, but it’s worth very little compared to what it earns because it’s so dependent upon Ian Stanley and my face and my name. So now having a software tool, just that recurring already, you can see it growing. And that’s one of the coolest things I’ve seen yet is because I’ve had memberships before, but when it’s an AI tool or a software tool where people like either it’s a part of their business or it’s not. Growing that is basically the primary focus at this point. And so it’s honestly, it’s like an incredible amount of clarity is the biggest difference is we’ve had, we’ve tried, like we do traction. You guys know what traction is the. So we do like a quarterly meeting and an annual meeting. We have an implementer who, you know, takes us through then every few months we’re changing directions, right? Let’s try this. Oh, we’re going to run ads to a Facebook group and we’re going to make millions. Oh, it didn’t work. We’re going to, let’s pivot, let’s do this. And now it’s like, no, no, let’s just get people into the tool. And so your whole business, like there’s a company I consulted for called USCCA. They do 250 million a year. And all they do is put people into their membership. And they’ve done that for 12 years. And that’s why they’re so successful.

When I asked the CEO, I’m like, are you into crypto right now? And he’s like, no. I’m like, man, you should be. You’re so rich. What? Because I want to get more people into the membership. Like that’s when you, the richest people I know are the least distracted. They have one goal and for most of them, it’s either they’re building an email list or they’re building a membership. And so that’s the biggest thing now is just when you have that singular focus, everything becomes significantly easier because you’re not questioning what should we do next? Is this the right thing to be working on? You just go, does it grow this? Yes or no. And I tried that. I had like a newsletter, this almost passive income newsletter. I’m like, this is it. Like it’s too broad. It’s not the right thing. So really just that clarity is the biggest thing of just like what we’re focused on. And then if I ever did want to sell the company, having a software is significantly more valuable than any other, you know, membership type. Uh, and then it’s not just Ian Stanley, it’s email game changes. And then it’s actually like a sellable asset. So many people think they have a company they can sell and you’re like, no, you don’t. You have a personality.

Kira Hug: What advice would you pull from that that would be relevant to copywriters listening? I mean, you shared one around focus, but is there anything else we could pull from that, even if we’re not creating our own AI tool?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, I’d say, is it mainly copywriters who listen to this, like people who write for other people?

Kira Hug: Yeah.

Ian Stanley: So get really good at one thing and be more narrow than you think is probably what I would say. get really good at writing health emails or credit, you know, the credit space emails, or find an area where you don’t have to keep doing research again and again, and just get really, really good at understanding that market and that demographic. And then anytime you write for that space, it’s just significantly less work, but also like, are you working on the right things? Being a copywriter, there’s two skills. I compare it to being a doctor, like the best doctors, aren’t necessarily the ones who make the most money. The richest doctors are the ones who run the best business practice. They have the best practice. They may not be the best surgeon, but they run the best business. And with copywriters, there’s lots of good copywriters making $5,000 a month who are better writers than people making $10,000 or $15,000. But they forget that there’s also the business side of copywriting, which is getting clients, keeping clients, really getting clients. Because if you’re good, you should keep them.

That’s the other thing about writing email instead of writing VSLs and sales pages and stuff is that it’s recurring. Like if you’re writing emails for people, they’ve got to keep paying you every month because you’ve got to keep having emails every month. Whereas like I’ll charge 25 grand for a sales letter, which I rarely, rarely ever do anymore because I just, if I write my own and that’ll take me an hour and a half rather than, you know, a week for someone else, I’m going to make more than 25 grand. But it’s one-off, you know, you make it, And then it’s gone. And now you’ve got to get another client and another client. So I think from a focus perspective or from a skill perspective, focus on one skill at a time. So if you want to get better at copy, don’t try to get better at copy, get better at a specific element of it.

When I was at Crisis Education, I remember I was not very good at transitions. So I was really good at writing like sections. Like I could write a great lead. I could write a great little value piece or an argument. But the way they transitioned was pretty weak. It felt like what I call like hammer transitions where you’re just getting hit over the head by a hammer rather than like a sandpaper transition where it’s very smooth. And so for like two weeks, I would just work on transitions. And then once I’ve done that, I’m like, okay, I’m going to work on using more interesting words. And so for two weeks, I’m working on more interesting words. Or for a month, you’re going to work on just leads. And that’s going to be the most important thing always is going to be a lead in sales letters. So just spend a month on leads, then a month on writing really good closes. Don’t try to get better at everything at once. Get better at one thing. It’s like if you’re playing tennis, don’t try to improve your forehand and your backhand and your serve all at the same time. Just work on your forehand for a couple of weeks. then move to your back end, then work on your serve. Don’t try to get better at all the things, because you probably will get better at nothing. It’s just another, I guess, focus. Do less, better. That’s the main advice I give to most people when I consult now, is just do less, better. Because I was the number one doer of all things mediocrely. Just chasing so many different things in so many directions. Just get rid of everything that’s not actually essential. and then do that one thing really, really well.

Rob Marsh: So Ian, before we run out of time, I want to ask you about comedy. Obviously, there are at least those of us that know a lot of copywriters, there are a lot of copywriters who do stand up. Obviously, Kevin Rogers, you’ve done it. Justin Blackman. Amy does like there, there’s so many people that do it. And so clearly, there’s a connection between the creativity of writing, standing up in front of people exposing yourself a little bit. But just walk us through how you think about stand up. And then, you know, after you’ve shared all of those stand up secrets, tell us how to access your comedy special.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, so I think maybe the most relevant thing to everybody here would be, so I recorded my special November 4th and 5th, so did three shows in two days. And I always had this idea that you’ve got to be perfect on stage because that’s what goes out. And then you realize, oh no, you get to edit. And so you literally take these pieces. So I spent at least 50 hours Watching the special and and I don’t actually do the editing of like pressing the buttons and stuff but editing for story Essentially of what’s going where what you’re killing in stand-ups very similar to copy where? What’s weird is when you start doing stand-up you just you want people to laugh You know and you’re happy when they laugh then when you get good at it You literally have to kill jokes that get good laughs. So you’re you’re not Like there are parts of the special that I cut completely that I really liked that get good laughs, but it’s not quite as good as the other ones. It’s not quite as the same level. And does it fit the narrative? So does it, does, what is the sequence of events? It’s like with a sales page, you can write the best copy ever, but if it’s in the wrong order, it’s not going to convert very well. It’s the same with standup. You’ve got to present things in the right sequence. So I’m very controversial with my standup.

So just as a precursor here, if you are going to go by the special, uh, if you’re easily offended, please do not. You will have a terrible time. The special is called controversial. If that gives you any sort of ideas to what it’s like. So, um, what I’ve learned, I’ve got these few new bits I’m working on right now. I had some shows this weekend and they’re very edgy. Even for me, it’s pushing the boundaries. Now, 10 years ago, it wouldn’t have been. It’s not actually offensive. It’s just words that you’re not supposed to say anymore. And I’m talking about the show Love on the Spectrum and Down for Love, which is the show about autistic people and people with Down syndrome. And you can say a very different thing 30 minutes into a show than you can one minute into a show. And it’s the same with a sales page where once you’ve presented certain facts or stories or things, you can say very different things 15 minutes into a sales letter than you can at the first minute. And you have to get people in. You have to get people on your side. You have to win them over. And a special is different than on stage, because on stage, people aren’t going to just walk out of the show unless you really suck or you really offend people or something. They’re not going to leave. With a special, you have 10 to 15 minutes as the inflection point. That’s my own. And from everybody I’ve talked to, that’s what they say as well, is basically if they put a special on, they’re giving it 10 to 15 minutes to say, I’m going to keep watching or I’m done. If you make it past that 10 to 15 minutes, you’re going to make it to 60 or 70 minutes, however long the special is. So as I’m editing this thing, what I really, one of the biggest lessons I learned was I have never worked this hard on a sales letter in my entire life. Like not even close. I basically write something and then I go, here it is. And I don’t edit, I don’t go back. I don’t rewatch my own videos. And I was like, what if I had one VSL that I worked this hard on? It would probably make literally millions and millions of dollars on repeat, if I just gave that much of a to sit and watch it again and again and again.

And with comedy, you can’t go rerecord. So even if there’s bits, I’m like, I wish I’d said this, or this could be a little different. Or that’s not quite there. With a VSL or something, you can go rerecord that you can, you know, film it again or whatever. So if I was just like, man, if I put this effort into something, I can’t imagine how good it would be. Like that was one of the lessons was just like, wow, this is what it feels like to try. You know, and which is a very good feeling. But those first 10 to 15 minutes is such a crucial piece where I have like seven minutes of crowd work in the beginning. We’re part of it. I don’t want people to think it’s a crowd work special, but it’s so it hits so hard that it was like, I can’t not put this in here. And I had my parents watch it, which was a fun thing in itself. And I was like, what’d you guys think of the crowd work in the beginning? Should I get rid of that? And they’re like, no, that might’ve been the best part. Cause people love crowd work so much that no matter how good your jokes are, the, just complete spontaneity and like unplanned piece of crowd work, people just love it.

But those first 10 to 15, we cut this bit about me being English in America, where I talk about dating girls, because even though it’s funny, I kind of sound like a dick. If you aren’t on my side already, and it’s too big a risk in the first 10 or 15 minutes for people to go, this guy, I already look like a douchebag. I already look like I started a frat or, you know, like, and I talk about what I look like and make fun of myself, but you really need to win people over. And so even though it’s funny, there’s a chance that new people wouldn’t, would find me unlikable from that, to be honest. And so it gets cut. And that’s emotionally challenging to cut these bits that you like, that you think should be there, but you realize they don’t serve the narrative or they don’t serve the greater purpose of what it is. But it’s also, comedy is the same as sales. It’s a transfer of feelings. If I’m afraid of a bit, especially because I do really controversial stuff, if I’m afraid of that bit, the audience will be afraid of that bit. If I don’t give them permission to laugh, then they won’t laugh. If I just go, you know what, this thing crazy, and I’m going to say it, and I’m going to laugh probably too, because I actually think it’s funny, then they’re going to as well. And so there’s that permission and that transfer of energy and feelings. And a lot of stand-up is just working on how relaxed you are. within a bit and just committing, especially to the edgy stuff. You just got to commit. You go, this is, this is what I’m doing. I’m saying, so I know what I’m saying is what is not what I’m supposed to say. I understand that if I was at a dinner party as just a normal person, I’d probably be kicked out of that dinner party. It’d be a pretty boring dinner party, to be honest, if they kicked me out, but you’re pushing the boundaries. And so it’s, it’s your presentation of it. It’s the same as like any VSL or ad. I can give you the same exact, script and have you say it five different ways and one of those five is going to outperform the other by 30 to 50 percent simply by how I say it and the energy I say it with or the background.

The background for the special actually well this isn’t on video but I have this huge half American half British flag in the background and it looks like a Netflix special like the production quality is insanely high. If my background was just the black curtains from the club it would look like a YouTube special. And so it’s the same with ads. We have the best ad that we continue to run that I somehow can’t beat is me driving in my truck. And for some reason, people just like when I’m in my truck. I don’t know why. I’ll record a video in front of a fjord in Norway or in Amsterdam in canals or in Paris. And I’m like, this ad’s going to crush. Nope, they want me in my truck. But we recently did one where I’m on a hoverboard. And I’m drinking, I have a gallon of milk in my hand. And I do not acknowledge the gallon of milk at any point. So I’m just carrying a gallon of milk and I take a drink and I don’t say anything about it. And that ad is the only one now that’s truly competing with the truck ad. And it’s just that, it’s just being interesting. It’s just finding ways to do something that other people haven’t done and had, you know, just not be boring. uh, within the context of what you’re doing. And so it’s, uh, it’s an insane, if it’s also adding movements, you know, if you’re doing a bit about a T-Rex, well, act like a T-Rex and it’s going to add to that bit. So with ads, with comedy, with sales pages, literally, if you can be doing something in the video, that’s not related, you’re going to get more people to pay attention than if you just stand in front of a white wall and say words.

Kira Hug: I think it’s worth talking about if you’re comfortable talking about what it takes to get your own stand-up special. I mean that’s something that’s coveted and I’m sure there are many writers listening who would love to do that or something similar. What does it actually take to do that?

Ian Stanley: Money.

Kira Hug: I had a feeling it was money.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, I mean. What else? Beyond that, it’s also you got to be able to sell out. You got to be able to sell out a show. or preferably three to four. We ended up using about 80% from the third show, about 10% from the second show, or maybe 15% from the second show, and maybe 5% from the first show. And it’s not that that show wasn’t good or anything like that. It’s just the energy was so high on the third one. And I’d had two shows to dial in material. But I mean, I spent about $20,000 on it. And so the production company who did it, I mean, he did all the trailers for like Marvel movies and all these, you know, they’ve done stuff for Netflix and all that. And so I spent, I wanted to look incredible rather than like decent for like, but for like five or 10 grand, you can get a pretty good special film, but you do have to be able to sell out a room. So like I had to sell, you know, 500 tickets for three shows. So you have to have some sort of a, either an audience, I used ads. I mean, I have an audience in standup, but not all of them are here in Boise where you’re going to be able to do that. So the comedy club, I’ve developed a relationship with them. I said, Hey, I want to film my special here and book this weekend. So you booked the weekend. And then I ran Facebook ads to a, uh, 50% off for the ticket. Cause I don’t care how many, I don’t care what they pay. I’m not trying to make money. I made a few grand from the, from the weekend of shows. Um, but I, I just wanted a full room, you know, I just wanted it to be full.

So you got to be able to sell out the room, which again, which was, that was, that’s been, what’s really fun is to use direct response to grow this other thing. And so we recorded like 20 ads and then I, and they were all fine. And then honestly, energetically, I just got to the space and I sat on this cannon in front of the, um, Boise capital and just, was being a silly goose and my legs were dangling like a toddler in a high chair, like sitting on this cannon. And that ad got 95% of all the ad spend and, you know, probably 50% of the sales came from an ad to fill the special. And so, and then I hired the production company. I mean, and then you’ve got to work for years on your material and dial in what that, you know, what that special is going to be. And then you got to edit out of it. I mean, you could theoretically just throw it out as is, like just what the people experienced in the room.

But the difference is going to be just a speed, like how quick that special feels where you cut out any moment that’s not a nine. Even if it’s a seven, you go now, let’s just and even there’s one little bit in the special right now, there’s about two minutes that I think are a little slower than the rest, and I just didn’t quite have time to figure out how to cut the intro without losing the end of the joke, because the end of the joke’s very good. So if I release it again later in a different place, I may cut those two minutes, but that’s being super nitpicky over an hour and nine minutes of special. But yeah, you’ve got to work on the material, the sequence, your energy. You don’t just go and record a special if you’re not good at it at that point. I mean, actually, lots of people do. Netflix has many specials that are not very good. But yeah, I mean, I think that’s the biggest thing. Any questions you have from your perspective, I’d be happy to answer. That’s kind of my thoughts.

Rob Marsh: I’m curious what the goal here is, Ian. You know, when you spend 20 grand on a special and you’re selling ads to advertise it, you know, or to get it out there, so it’s even more spend there. I mean, just to break even, you’ve got to sell, you know, I think it’s $15, you know, to get in. If nobody uses a discount or whatever to buy it, you’ve got to sell 1,400 people, right, to break even and then even more with ads. So, and then also, you know, with something this controversial, it’s probably, you know, a lot of people aren’t looking to saying, Hey, we can put Ian in a, you know, in a TV pilot or, you know, that kind of thing. So what’s the goal here for you? Is it just expression, creative expression, having fun, or is there some bigger thing?

Ian Stanley: No, I’m going to make a ton of money from this. Okay. From standup is my belief. That sounded a little bit douchey, but what I, the purpose of the special is to build a fan base. So, um, I believe that I’m not chasing money in standup and in acting, but I know that once it’s there, it’ll be a lot and it’ll probably be more than business has ever been or anything. Standup’s weird. You either kind of make no money, you make enough to pay some bills or you make like tens of millions a year, you know, for the higher end guys. Right. So I do want to do TV shows. I do want to do movies. I think part of that’s going to be that I have to write my own.

And that’s the novel I’m working on is essentially a screenplay that I’ve turned into novel format, which I won’t say what it is because it’s good enough. It’s one of the only ideas I’ve had where I go, this is a very stealable, good idea. I wonder about that with the TV pilot stuff, but you see like Shane Gillis, he’s got his own coming out now and he said all the most offensive things possible. And so I think, I think culture has shifted back where people are kind of like, whatever, this is ridiculous to cancel people for words. And so I think it’s shifted. I mean, there are things that people are always going to be offended by. But also if you do watch the special, you’ll see there’s no malice like that’s my my barometer for myself is. Is this joke malicious? Am I trying to be mean to a group of people like I have? like for trans jokes. And one of the waitresses at the club is trans and she loves it. Literally came out after the special was like, where is this going to go? I can’t wait to watch. Like, this is so cool. And so to me, that shows this is jokes. You understand that I’m messing around. There’s no malicious intent here. And that’s super important to me because I’m not trying to be mean. There’s a difference. I think there’s certain comics who hear talk about a topic and you can feel like an undertone of actual maliciousness towards that group of people. That’s not my goal. But so the goal, the goal with the special is to build a fan base, like a, so that I can do a tour and sell out the tour without having to work my ass off at selling tickets so that I can go places, do standup.

So the first thing would be to be able to go and sell out comedy clubs across America and sell out clubs. Then in a year or two, be able to do theaters and then in, you know, three, four years, be able to do arenas and stadiums and that type of thing. And so that is the goal is to do this as the only thing that I do. And YouTube, I love making sketches and YouTube videos and stuff. And so I think with a lot of what I’ve learned in marketing and stuff, I can apply that to the online realm in a way that others can’t necessarily, and invest in production and things. And so the goal here is really just, if I can break even on this special, great. But ultimately, after the release on Moment, which is where it’s at now, which is a paid thing, there’ll be a second release in a few months somewhere else. And I don’t know exactly how that’s going to go. But the goal is, I don’t care if it’s free and it’s on YouTube and I don’t make a dime, but a million people watch it and I get 100,000 true fans who are willing to go to any show in their city. That’s the goal, because the money comes from touring and then other stuff.

The other difference is I have a merch company that I started called Feed the Wolf, where we have our rated like comedy merch. So I won’t say the the merchandise on there. If you want to go to Feed the Wolf dot com, you can see it. But the words on the shirts and stuff are not exactly appropriate for this podcast. But we have mugs and t-shirts and things. And really, the way that the biggest YouTubers make their money is from their own businesses that they own. And so my goal is, if I can spend money to grow the channels and things, whether it’s through production or whatever it is for the videos, and then I can make that back through people buying merch, on my site, then I can at least break even and just grow and reinvest into growth. So the goal is absolutely just a fan base of people that are genuine, true fans. And then the money will follow. I know how to monetize stuff. It’s just about growing an audience of people who are like truly want to see everything you do.

Rob Marsh: I suppose if Jimmy Carr can land a TV show, there’s a space for anybody who does that brand of comedy to land a TV show.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, and it’s very, my jokes are very, very different than his brand is very much jokes. Mine’s, you know, storytelling and different stuff, but there’s only two comics in America who’ve made it that are English really. And that’s Ricky Gervais is probably my favorite comic. It’d be more, my stuff’s more similar to that. But Ricky and Jimmy have both made it here, which is really interesting because most English and Scottish, well, Scottish comics can’t make it in America because English people can’t understand, or American people can’t understand. Nobody can understand them. Yeah. There are even times that I’m like, okay, can you, what are you, what are you saying? Yeah. So it’s a weird thing because they don’t really make it and being half English and half American, it’ll be, I’m really interested to see how it translates for me as like building a fan base in England. And in America, and then I’ll end up with a big Australian fan base just because they think I’m one of them. So that’ll be interesting to see.

But yeah, I think worrying about, it’s a really fine line to start cutting your own jokes, because they might be too offensive. And I actually went and saw Ricky Gervais in Norway a month before I recorded my special. And he had this bit. We had a bunch that’s just like so far. It’s the Armageddon special. And it was so good. And my girlfriend, I left and I had this bit that I was probably not going to do in the special. And then we both went, if Ricky said that bit, we would have gone. That’s so funny. And that’s genius that he did that. And I think if there’s one, if you start to draw a line somewhere, then you, you just start moving that line to be like, Oh, I don’t want to offend. You just got to say whatever you want. And if it goes too far, then deal with it. I just think if you start to self-censor, you lose the best parts of yourself.

Kira Hug: Well, I think what you said originally is most important here, just pulling the audience in initially in the first 10, 15 minutes so they like you. And then you can take them wherever you want to take them to whatever jokes you want to present because they’re on your side.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, if you open up with your absolute most insane bit, they might just not be ready for it. And they’re like, okay, whoa. Can you ease us in?

Kira Hug: Let’s do a little bit of foreplay for this. I need a drink before this starts.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, exactly.

Kira Hug: All right. Well, where can we find your special? If we want to check out your special, where should we go?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, go to moment.co slash Ian Stanley. And it’s there and you can use the code Stanley for $5 off since you’re a copywriter. Um, and then, uh, feed the wolf.com has the merge. Um, and then if it does, if you’re past, there’s like a 30 day viewing window. So I don’t know when this will come out, but if it’s not there, just, uh, go to my Instagram at becoming in Stanley and you’ll find out when I released the next one.

Rob Marsh: And I think if, if people hit your, your Instagram, but get a sense of what the jokes are like, and whether they’re a fit for actually purchasing the special or not. Might be a good place to start.

Ian Stanley: Exactly. And then if you want to just get on my email list and you try out the AI tool, that’s emailgamechanges.com. And then you can see if I’m actually good at email and test out the tool. There’s a right now $1 trial, but it might be a free trial by the time you get there, Adam.

Rob Marsh: Excellent. Thanks.

Kira Hug: Thanks, Ian. Thank you. I’m excited to see where everything goes for you with your show and maybe Netflix will pick it up.

Ian Stanley: Maybe. We’ll see. We’ll see. It’ll be someday. Yeah. If it’s not this year, next.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Ian Stanley. I want to add just a bit more color to a couple of the ideas that we talked about with Ian. Ian talked in depth about sales training, the training that he provided for his team. And I think there’s a lot to be taken away from what Ian was sharing, even if you are the only person doing sales for your business. And for most of us as copywriters, that’s the way that our businesses are. We are the salesperson, we’re the writer, we are the support team. So what Ian shared that he was telling his team is also applicable to us as individuals. Number one, you’ve got to believe in yourself. You’ve got to believe in the product that you’re selling and your ability to deliver. And as you talk with your clients, just to get them to the point where they can see you are confident in delivering what it is that you’re selling. I love that Ian focused on no high pressure tactics or the fake sales tactics, that he really wants people leaving a sales call feeling good. We should also be feeling the same way. There’s no reason to push somebody to make a decision on a call, a decision that they’re not ready to make. And it’s always a good reminder that you’re not selling the result.

You’re selling freedom. You’re figuring out the thing that your prospect wants and you’re focusing on that. And I know we’ve talked about this a lot on the podcast, but that looks like this on a sales call. Your client is asking you for something, usually a deliverable like a website or a sales page or an email sequence. But what you’re really delivering isn’t a web page or a sales page or an email sequence. It’s the thing underneath the thing, the thing that a web page gets you or the thing that a sales page gets you. And oftentimes that’s going to be authority, believability, credibility. Oftentimes it’s going to be sales and revenue.

Sometimes it’s going to be something like retention and being able to bring people back for a second or a third purchase. It’s those things that you’re really selling. So those are the things that you want to focus on in the sales call. Not necessarily the web page, not necessarily the sales page or whatever, but it’s the thing underneath the thing. And the faster, the better that we can understand what our clients are looking for, the better we are going to be on our own sales calls. I also love the “ask your wife” objection or “ask my partner” objection. We talked a bit about that. Obviously, A traditional sales team will push you to make a decision on a call, but we’ve always taught copywriters that that’s actually a good thing when somebody says, Hey, I want to talk this over with my partner because if the partner supports the decision, they often become a second part of your sales team. They’re basically encouraging the person you’ve been talking to. to invest in themselves or to do what they believe is going to be best for their business. And so rather than pushing somebody who wants to talk it over with a partner to make a decision now, I think it’s usually going to be better to say, go ahead, have that discussion.

Here are all the things that you can share with your partner about why you’re making this decision or why you think this is a good idea for your business and come back and let me know. And like I said, oftentimes they will become a backup sales team for you. Another thing that we chatted about that I think is worth drawing a line under is this idea of knowing whether to push through or quit. Specifically, we’re talking about this as we talked about the end of this partnership. But this happens a lot in our business. We have a product that maybe doesn’t sell as well or a service that we’re getting tired of providing. And oftentimes, understanding what the end goal is and whether or not you’re climbing a mountain that you want to get to the top of or not is a really good framework for helping you decide, is this where I want to be spending my time?

This reminds me of our interview with Kieran Drew just a few weeks ago, where he had invested years into his dental career and then understands he needs to make a switch. And at some point, you’ve got to stop investing in the thing that no longer serves you, get off of that ladder and start climbing up a different mountain, a different ladder, or have a different goal. Might be worth going back and listening to that Kieran Drew episode if this is the kind of thing that you’re dealing with in your own life or business.

And then finally, we talked a lot about how to build that high margin company. Ian walked through some of the specifics and I just want to emphasize some of this because oftentimes as copywriters in our own businesses, we do not do these things. Most copywriters do not run ads. to an opt-in for their products or services. Obviously, this is something we will usually do with training or physical products, but it can also be done for services. Oftentimes, copywriters aren’t thinking about sales on the back end. As you sell that first service, how does that turn into another sale later down the line. Again, this is something that we tend to do with webinars or physical products, training, that kind of stuff when we sell it, but don’t necessarily think about it as much when we’re selling services and we’re talking about actually providing content and copy for our clients. So it might be worth just thinking, you know, what would my business look like if I did run some ads to sell my services or if I did have a backend product or a second service that I can add on after I sell that first service in order to become more high revenue in my business. Definitely worth thinking about as you build your business as well.

We want to thank Ian Stanley for joining us to talk about creating a high margin company that is fun to run. Also talking about email and comedy and so much more. And as he said at the end of our discussion, you can find him on Instagram at Becoming Ian Stanley. He also mentioned a couple of websites where you can find his trainings. You might want to check that out. If you decide to check out his comedy special, be warned, Ian is not joking when he said his comedy is pretty offensive. His show is something to watch without the kids in the room. And in some cases, you may not even want your partner to be in the room. So you’ve been warned, but feel free to check that out if that’s of interest to you. If you’ve enjoyed this interview, please share it with a friend or associate who might also enjoy or learn from it. You can always leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We always appreciate those.

 

We’ve talked a lot about building your authority and finding clients on LinkedIn on this podcast. But I don’t think we’ve ever spoken with anyone who built a six-figure copywriting business entirely on that platform—without a website or any other social media presence. On the 391st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we spoke with Alefiya Khoraki who did exactly that. And if you’re looking for clients on LinkedIn, you’re definitely going to want to listen to this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Sell Like Crazy by Sabri Suby
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: After recording almost 400 episodes of this podcast—the official number 400 will be released in about 9 weeks and that doesn’t include several unnumbered bonus episodes we’ve recorded—but with that many interviews under out belts, it gets pretty easy to identify trends and shifts in the copywriting world based on what copywriters tell us about how they find clients, the services they offer and the struggles they go through. And one of the trends we’ve heard about over and overa again in the past year or more is how effective LinkedIn is for finding clients.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Alefiya Khoraki. She’s built a six figure business in less than a year, primarily by posting content on Linkedin and commenting on other content there. That’s pretty good for someone who got her start trying to raise $800 for a project while she was in school. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been wondering how to use AI in your copywriting or content writing business, I’ve got something for you. A couple months ago i shared the way I use AI tools like Claude and ChatGPT to write bullets, headlines and subheads with the participants of a copywriting summit. It’s a simple google document with the exact prompt I use to write hundreds of great headlines and bullets in seconds. Plus instructions on how to go back and forth with the AI model you’re using to get even better results. You can even add a short ten-ish minute video training where I show you how i use it. If you’re new to writing with A.I., this is a great way to get started. And if you’ve been using A.I. for awhile, this training may open your eyes to what’s possible with a megaprompt. The document is free. And you can get it at thecopywriterclub.com/aiwriter.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Alefiya.

Kira Hug: Let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Alefiya Khoraki: So it started in a very weird way. You probably hear this a lot from copywriters. Back in COVID, I started my bakery business because I was still in university and for the final year, we had a very special ceremony for which I needed to raise 800 USD. And I was like, OK, let’s try something. So every day I was trying new things. Let’s try selling cottage cheese one day. Let’s try selling this. Let’s try selling that. And then I ended up starting my own bakery because I was working. I was studying in the morning, so I had time for myself in the evenings. And then I started running Facebook ads for that. And I was like, oh wow, I really enjoy this part. 

I didn’t even know what copywriting is. I didn’t even know what A-B testing is. Because for my bakery business, that was the first time I downloaded the Instagram app. So I was very far off from the whole online marketing world. And then a lady was introduced to our community and she hosted a workshop. And there, she introduced me to Boss Babe. Boss Babe is Natalie Ellis and Danielle Canty. And they were doing a summit with Tony Robbins, Young Guys EOC, and all that. And then at that time, to learn all these marketing skills for my bakery business. And I was studying Sabri Suby’s book, Sell Like Crazy, and I was like, I really enjoy this. But I didn’t have the courage to quit my bakery business because people started calling me the brownie queen of Kampala. This was back in Africa. So I was doing all that, and I was really enjoying it. And then I had to travel to Pakistan for six months to my grandparents’ place. And I was like, oh, shucks. OK, now my pocket money’s stopped, and I need to do something. So what I did is I pitched, like, 50 bakery owners that, hey, let me be your bakery consultant, and let me help you grow your business. Nobody replied. And then I was like, OK, I’ve got to do something in this marketing thing. And somehow I came across Alex Cattoni’s YouTube channel. And I was like, OK, this is something called copywriting. And if I want to pursue marketing and I have to write for that, OK, maybe I was writing my Facebook ads. So how hard can this be? And that’s how I started writing on LinkedIn. And yeah, I became a LinkedIn ghostwriter. And that’s about it. And then things kept happening.

Rob Marsh: We’ll get to the “things kept happening” part in a second. I’m curious…  pitching a ton of potential clients, no responses, what did that pitch look like? And as those responses didn’t come in, did you make changes to your pitch or how did you adjust your approach?

Alefiya Khoraki: I don’t even remember. I didn’t even know it was called a pitch. It was sending random emails from my Gmail account. I don’t even know if I was searching the right email addresses and probably going to support. I didn’t even know there are tools built for scrapping email addresses. I’m a rookie who doesn’t have any idea about this whole online marketing world. And of course, many things change after that. Like currently, my biggest source of client acquisition is Pitching and LinkedIn, obviously. But I don’t even remember what those pitches were. Probably just sharing that, OK, I made this much money from my bakery business. And I was supposedly called. It was bullshit. So that’s what the responses I got.

Kira Hug: OK, do you have your baking business anymore? Or is it shut down? Or you ended it?

Alefiya Khoraki: It is shut down. I was doing this in Uganda where I had a whole monopoly for the bakery business. I was charging $200 for a brownie tray and my parents were like “you ripping people off.” I was like okay. My brother is a photographer so I had elite photography and very shitty packaging but the photography did the job. I had a nice Instagram page. I was looting people left, right, center. And I had like $300 cakes, $200 cakes. There’s no chance I can charge that much money in India now that I’m married and living in India. So that’s why I chose not to continue my bakery business here.

Kira Hug: Got it. OK, well, are there any other lessons from the bakery business that you have pulled into your copywriting and marketing business?

Alefiya Khoraki: Everything. Customer care, how to handle crises. I remember when I was charging this much money and then a lady called and said, “hey, I think you’re just too overrated.” And I could get these cookies for free or for cheaper from this XYZ bakery. And then I was like, OK, let me just return you and replace you with more cookies or I can just refund your money. And then she came in and she said, I’ve raised these complaints to many, many places, but I’ve never heard a response back. And that’s the same thing I carry back to my copywriting business. If a client is not satisfied, I will do everything in my control to make that client satisfied. If it calls for more free work, I’ll do that because it’s like my first year, right? I can afford to do that. If it calls for doing more… I remember one of my early clients said she was not happy with the tone of voice. Immediately I DM Justin Blackman to help me with this. I’m really terrified, send me a course. Let me do this in two days. I did that. I was like I told this client that I’m new and I just took this course, so let me just cover this and you won’t have a tone of voice complaint ever. So that’s the thing. I know many small entrepreneur lessons and people ask me how I’ve picked up so fast. It’s because I had this bakery business background of running an actual business.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, which helps for sure, right? So you grew pretty fast as you launched your business. If I’m not mistaken, you were having six and seven thousand dollar months in the first six months of your copywriting business. So going from bakery business to copywriter, how did you make that happen?

Alefiya Khoraki: So I was in Pakistan for six months, and that was the transition period where I was figuring out, OK, what do I want to do? Then I came to India, where I am today. Now my husband lives in India. And at that time, I forgot about the business. All the ambition went down the drain. It was the honeymoon period. And then my husband traveled to Saudi Arabia for 40 days. And I had nothing to do because I don’t have any family here. And I had to do something. I wanted to do something. So that’s when I started binging all the other copywriting stuff, and started writing on LinkedIn every single day. And I landed my first client for $30 within like three days. And then I started improvising and doing small things. But because I wrote those Facebook ads, I had the idea of copy and how to do A-B testing. I still remember when I used to launch those two campaigns, one campaign was how I catered men. I was targeting men and selling like, okay, treat your pregnant wives with a box of brownies and attracted lots of men from there. So at that time, I was not sure what I was doing, but when I find a winner from the campaign, what does it feel like? So I had those certain elements which I was bringing in and I was not doing copywriting per se, like when I started on LinkedIn. 

At that time the whole LinkedIn vibe was ghostwriting, ghostwriting, ghostwriting. So I just googled “what is ghostwriting?” and then I gobbled all that I could on LinkedIn and started offering ghostwriting services. So the thing which helped us scale, and then two months later I asked my husband to quit the family business and join us. So then we both combined. And there are certain challenges. We are not Prerna and Mayank. So there are certain challenges. And we had to figure a few things out—how do we work as husband and wife in the business? Which took us a year. And now we are good. But last year we did this. And the things which helped us keep getting clients on repeat was they were making good money from all the sales posts and case study posts we put out there.

Kira Hug: OK, so let’s back up a little bit. And I just need the timeline in my head. I know you made this shift. Would you say 2023 was your first year as a copywriter in business, or was it 2022?

Alefiya Khoraki: 2023 in June. And I was still in my graduation year, so I only worked for four or five months in 2023, because then exams came in, and final exams came in. And then I was like, OK, and now my exams are there. I can’t work on more projects.

Kira Hug: OK. Yeah, and I definitely want to touch on you working in combination with your husband, which is definitely interesting, tricky, and all those things, and also, I’m sure, magical and great. But first, let’s talk more about LinkedIn, because it sounds like you’ve really grown using LinkedIn. So I guess I’m wondering how you even decided, I’m going to go all in on LinkedIn. Were you experimenting with different social media platforms at first? Or was it just you chose that one and it took off because you were consistent?

Alefiya Khoraki: No, I was experimenting, of course. I have crappy design skills. So Instagram was off the charts. TikTok is banned in India. I tried Twitter when my whole family was prepping for my wedding. Choosing the dresses and all and that at that time I was busy figuring it out Twitter posting like 10 tweets a day and It didn’t just pick up. I had no traction and then the friend I have who has been constant with me for entire my bakery business and he just suggested that LinkedIn is a writer’s platform. You don’t need to have very good graphics and all that and you don’t need canvas skills. I was like, okay yeah, no canvas skills. I’ll do this. And then I started writing on LinkedIn. And yeah, it picked up. Within 30 days, I had people messaging me that they’re following me, my advice, more than they’re following Alex. I mean, some people are just nice, but then they started saying these things. And then I was like, okay. But at that time, the mistake I made was I had no idea what I was just writing about. So I started with what I started with is writing. I had a 30-day cold email challenge because I was fitting people. So I was just sharing, day one, do this tip. Day two, that’s how I started on LinkedIn. And I landed a cold email client who asked me to run some cold email campaigns for their marketing, their software development agency.

Kira Hug: OK, so just to dig in a bit more, then, what was working on LinkedIn? Again, other than you were showing up consistently, which I think is what most of us miss, is we just don’t do it frequently enough. We try it, and then we’re like, eh, it didn’t work. But were you tagging people? Were you sharing a specific style of post that started to pay off over time and attract clients?

Alefiya Khoraki: So there is a lot of advice around LinkedIn. And there’s a very simple formula, like write your about section as if you’re writing a landing page with a very strong headline, very strong conversion copy principles. And then just have a catalytic link in your feature section. This is like the basics when you’re starting. This is how I started out. And then you have like the biggest mistake I see everyone making on LinkedIn is not focusing a lot on formatting. And I know when we are writing in the flow and we are writing, it’s different from other writing platforms. Like how you write a page, how you write emails, you have to format your posts because that’s how it pushes more people towards your post. That’s how it picks up. However, like if you put long sentences, however good the copy, it does pick up. But then you have to build a very strong, engaged audience for it to pick up. So of course, formatting matters. And then the other thing which matters is being active, which I didn’t know about in the first one month or two months. And then someone shared that, OK, you have to treat LinkedIn like a job if you don’t have any other job right now, which I didn’t at that time. And do 50 comments a day and DM 10, 15 people every day and send 10, 15 connections, which is a lot to do. And it’s not sustainable. But at that time, I didn’t have anything. I was like, OK, they’re doing this. I’ll double that or triple that. And my husband wasn’t there, so I had nothing to do. So the whole day after my university classes finished, all I was doing was LinkedIn. DMing people, messaging people, writing comments. And when they read my comments, and then I brought the premium LinkedIn. When they showed up in my profile, I went in and said, hey, I noticed that you dropped by my profile, anything that caught your eye? Or, hey, I checked you dropped by my profile, what led you here? And some of them said, a future project. Or someone said, I like your comment. And then, or someone said that, I write how you put up your opinions. And that’s how that led conversations. And yeah, landed  the first 10 projects came from there.

Rob Marsh: And how have you continued to use LinkedIn? Do you still, so you said it wasn’t sustainable to do, you know, three times more work than the recommendation. And for most of us, that recommendation of a post every day and 50 comments, that even is difficult to sustain. So while we’re talking about LinkedIn, how are you using it today?

Alefiya Khoraki: I have someone who helps me a little, who helps me manage it because now it’s picked up so much that I can’t handle it. So that person helps me. Okay, these are the comments that you need to pay attention to. This is the person who’s checking your profile and maybe you need to lead this conversation forward. Now, these are the people in your DMs who might feel like future clients. And what most people fail to do is what I leveraged it. I knew I couldn’t be on more than one platform. It was just not possible. But I knew that not all my ideal clients are hanging around on LinkedIn. So I was active like kind of everywhere I could be and then leading all of them towards LinkedIn. Like if I’m reaching out to someone who is very active on, on Instagram and they’re my ideal client, it didn’t stop me from reaching out if I was not on Instagram. I started the conversation there or I pitched them and then drove, drove them towards LinkedIn. And I attract like everyone, even in the, in the cooperating circles, my ideal clients, my peers, every, I was driving everyone towards LinkedIn. and showing that, okay, I’m writing on LinkedIn, I’m an authority on LinkedIn. So many people are like, oh yeah, you’re not anywhere else and you’re on a scam because you’re so active on LinkedIn. Okay, you have these posts, you have people commenting on. So you can’t be a scam, who’s pitching us? Even though it was from a non-business email at that time when I was pitching people. This is like early 2020. I’m talking about June, July, August, September, 2023. Okay.

Rob Marsh: And so today, do you still post every day?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, I post every day. Monday to Friday, sometimes Saturday, Sunday as well.

Rob Marsh: Okay.

Alefiya Khoraki: And how often? I use past posts as well right now. Like when I see winner posts, I post them every day. They go at 5.45 Indian time every single day. I try and at least respond to 15 comments by myself. I at least try and start two conversations every day, which is like very little from what the LinkedIn influencers recommend. But now that I’ve built relationships and the thing which I did was really early on in my business, like in early 2024. So I’ve never had a client drop, unless it was August last year, where we had taken a three month break because of my exams. And then I came in and then I have another story to share about going for a wrong program and that time in August and then I was like putting all this energy in the wrong program which was not which well I was not trusting myself and my client acquisition abilities and then that wrong program it was like a 40-day period but I was still getting clients from LinkedIn but I was not getting clients from the other client acquisition method which was shared in that program And then, so what I did in early, so December was the other time I had a client drawn, which was like 25 days. And my biggest quality which, between my husband and I, is I can land, if you give me a deadline, in 24 hours I can land a client. And I can do something, I can go on Facebook. I’ve done that in the past. And these 25 days, tried every single thing. Instagram, yes. LinkedIn, yes. Fast clients, yes. Nothing was happening, it’s just, I was like, OK, maybe I have to reconsider the whole copywriting thing. Will I ever get a client? I don’t know. And that’s when I pitched the biggest LinkedIn influencer. And LinkedIn has this whole thing where it has a favicon rating where they rate people. So you can say top one, top two, and then it’s like top UK. And then it has like overall the whole LinkedIn thing. So she’s the number one female creator on LinkedIn. according to those Faircom ratings. And she shared in her post that her current click-through rate for her launch was 6%. And then I had a case study where my click-through rate were like 49% or something like that. And then I pitched her, and I shared that screenshot in that pitch that, hey, I saw this, and this is something that I’ve been able to do in the past. And looking at your audience, I easily think that this is possible. And I think within six hours she’s like, let’s talk, let’s do this. And the thing I did was because I knew that how influential her name can be and how it will help me grow my confidence. So I was like, okay, you don’t pay me anything until we finish the project. So if this is successful, if we hit 150K with the launch, then only you pay me. We did. and then I could use her name to get more projects which wasn’t necessary but you know that sometimes there’s an internal confidence shift and a major shift internal confidence shift happened when I was in CSP as well so you know just being able to talk to Joy in person also made that okay now I’m between the elites and now I get to think like the elites So that’s the internal confidence shift also that happened that maybe led me to pitching this big influencer.

Kira Hug: Okay, so what could someone listening do to get that type of mindset shift? today because, I mean, the way you’re talking about pitching this influencer, you came in confident and with dropping a screenshot and saying, I feel confident I can increase your click-through rate. And I love that. It clearly worked. But I know so many copywriters would struggle with that level of confidence in their mindset and would probably never even do that. So what would you recommend they do? to channel that energy you’ve got, that mindset?

Alefiya Khoraki: I’ll tell you the truth. So the thing is, it doesn’t always work. I pitched a huge another name, top five Yahoo coaches. You know, you have those listings. It’s really nice. And even that was performance basis. But it didn’t work. But what happened is, I shared that sales pitch with a few potential clients, and they loved it so much, I got projects based on that. So if you have the rents and all sorted, and if you’re not really, really struggling financially, like what’s the worst that can happen? You don’t end up getting paid for two to three works of projects. Because this is like talking about my first year in business. Like if I would be three, four years in, I wouldn’t do all this. But since it was my first year, I needed those big names I could associate myself with. I said, OK, what’s the worst that can happen? And even after that project, maybe the client twisted a few things and maybe we didn’t, we did not, um, I did not have access to her data, which we could control at that time. And which was something I learned along the way that, okay, if I’m doing a performance basis, I should have access to all their data. And that’s how I went in, in the next project that, okay, I will have access to all your data. I will monitor this, I will do this. And then you just learn and there’s nothing to lose. So this pitch to this LinkedIn influencer, I literally wrote an invite I had written a pitch three months ago, which I never sent. And I said, OK, what’s the worst that can happen? Let me just send it. Maybe she’ll ignore it. Maybe she’ll reply. Whatever happens, happens. So there’s really nothing to lose when you think, like, the mindset you’re talking about. If they say yes, it’s a project. And then you work the hell off on that project. What I’ve even done is I’ve invested my money into the project as well, maybe getting another really successful copywriter and asking them, OK, can you run through the strategy? Can you run through the copy? And although I’m not getting paid for it, I’m still investing money, which even after maybe one failed project, it will lead to ROI in one. It’s just a hustle game. So you have to keep trying until you land a big fish. And then just this is how I don’t know how you believe that or not. One big client leads to 10 others because they have this huge network, huge influence. And maybe one small client doesn’t lead to many other clients. So it’s like you just have to amp up your game. That’s what I learned through this experience.

Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about mindset, let’s also talk about how you priced the work that you did, because a lot of people starting out, especially in Asia, where you live, tend to start out charging very low prices, sometimes pennies per word, sometimes ridiculously low prices that they really shouldn’t even be considering. there’s a mindset when you’re starting out, you have to charge less. You didn’t really do that or you quickly ramped up your pricing. Talk a little bit about that and the thinking around that. How did you justify that to yourself as you started to build your business?

Alefiya Khoraki: Okay. I’ll be very honest. I did the same. So my goal was, okay, I was earning X, Y, Z in the bakery business. And I was like, okay, how can I earn the similar thing in this new business? And it turns out, okay, $10 email, fine. Okay, that’s so much money. I just get $10 fighting a normal email. That’s good. Until you get into circles where people are talking about $500 for email. And then that’s where your business, your mindset shifts. So there’s an interesting story. When I started the business, I reached out to Iman Ismail to hire me. And then she was like, your copy game is not still there. This is like, very mid just like the first month of starting the business. And then I was like, I’ll reach out to you a year later and you’ll see where I am. So let me just put in everything I can so I can reach there. So at that time, I saw like what Eman charges. And then I was like, okay, who are the Asians who are crushing it currently? And Prerna came up, Esai came up, and Samar came up. And then I looked at their charges and they were charging a lot. Then I was like, okay, why can’t I? 

Then I looked at their work. Okay, okay. Now, if I have to amp up my work game, let me invest in it. And we invested a lot. Last year, I don’t think we’ve saved anything in the business. All what we earned went back into investing. Everything. We made some mistakes. Some programs were not worth it. But most of it was. I’ve heard about like the think tank and CSP and programs like this what it does even if it does not like if even if you’re not getting the coaching coaching like the the knowledge part what happens is just getting into a room with Kira or Joel or people like that it just makes you feel like okay now you’re you’re a big person like you’re you’re someone who as an authority you’re someone who is known in those circles Maybe the coach doesn’t see you that way, but it’s just internally, it shifts many things. Like, okay, now I can be friends with this influential person. I can be friends with this one. Now this person knows my name. Now this person is seeking out to you. I’m speaking with this person. 

So that just builds network, and that’s what helped me shift my mindset around pricing. Okay, if these other influential people who I admire, they can do so. So let me do, and then it’s, I was increasing price after every project, very slowly. So I started LinkedIn with $35 per post. Then it went to 45, then 55, then 75. The highest it went to was $150 per post. And then similar with emails. It started with like $25 per email, coming to 250 right now.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, it seems an observation is what, some of the many things you’ve done well is relationships. boldly reaching out to people, building those relationships, and having the drive and the confidence to reach out and say, Okay, even if you’re not ready for me now, or you don’t think I’m good enough now, I’m going to come back and I will be good enough and just believing in yourself to know that you’ll circle back and they will want you. I love that on LinkedIn, You reach out to people who have checked out your profile. I don’t know if you do that, Rob. I’ve never done that. And I check out who’s checking out my profile all the time. And so now I think I might reach out to them and ask them your questions. What was the question you asked? Like, hey, do you see anything you like?

Rob Marsh: This is actually one of the ideas that we put in our Find Clients Now report that we’ve made free for everybody, is to use that check out, people checking you out. And when you’re checking each other out a couple of times, it’s a little bit like dating, right? It’s like, wait a second, that guy’s making eyes at me. Maybe we should be friends and start that relationship.

Kira Hug: Yeah, they’re looking at me. But I love that approach because it’s a great way to engage And they’re mostly going to respond. So I’m going to start doing that. Before we move away from LinkedIn, because I would just love to talk about the content you’re posting. You’re posting daily. How do you think about content? What advice do you have for all of us if we want to post more frequently, based off what’s worked for you or even what’s working today on LinkedIn?

Alefiya Khoraki: So as Jo says, everything is content, right? So we are tracking everything, all client results. And I was very open about everything going on in my business. If a client emailed me saying, this is the part I don’t like about your project, I would put that on there. And hardly anyone does that because everyone’s very busy showing off the results. And what helped that is whenever a client that a potential client who wanted to work with me reached out and said, you’re genuine. I know that all the results you’re posting up are not fake because you posted this thing. So one thing is sharing your story and all the ups and downs, where you’ve traveled, where you’ve been from, your I’m not an overshare. I would not share about my personal life or anything about my family or all this. Some people do that. And their whole entire content strategy is based off their personality, which can work. It very well does. 

My content strategy is not very heavily focused on personality-driven content. I’m not saying personality-driven in terms of writing. In terms of writing, yes. But I would not share about very intimate stuff. I’m not comfortable there. And the other thing is, we all have opinions. Sometimes I’m scrolling something on Instagram, and recently I wrote a post. I saw someone saying, there was a huge influencer. I really, really admire that. Maybe I mentioned them on the podcast. And they were launching this 2997 program. And as a bonus, they were selling a $97 sales page template. And it got me a little furious. How can you expect people to convert six-figure, seven-figure funnels based on a $97 template. So that was the idea that struck, and then I’m collecting these ideas, and then I wrote a post that if you expect to see great ROI from this, and that was the whole post. So whenever I’m reading something, it triggers my attention, that goes into the content folder. Then all case studies must, must, must have to be on LinkedIn. Any good connections I’ve built, I would have shared about how I pitched Kira and your reply. But sometimes you can’t overshare. You have to run it by them. Are they comfortable doing that? Sometimes I didn’t. And that was a mistake I made. And I would not do that again. I would always run by people. OK, are you comfortable with me sharing this screenshot? Are you comfortable with me sharing this snapshot? Which will save you a lot of trouble. It would have saved me a lawsuit by one of my, yeah.

Rob Marsh: So we’re never going to come back to that. While you’re talking, I’m thinking to myself, OK, we’re raising all of the prices of all of our templates so that the expectation is that they’re going to deliver. what we promised, because you’re right. There’s a framing effect that happens when you price things low, and I think you’re tapping into some deep psychology there. But I want to go back to what you talked about, or what you briefly mentioned, investing in a program that was not a fit. And we don’t necessarily need to talk about the program, but I am really interested in the process that you went through as you thought, okay, I need this. And then how you came to realize, wait a second, this was a bad investment. And maybe are there takeaways from that experience that we can use as we’re looking at programs to invest in?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, I wouldn’t go very much in detail on this, but so what happened is the main one thing was I was operating from a place of fear. Because I said I never faced client acquisition issues. I just came back from my exams. And I was like, OK, let’s do this. I did not do any research on my end. And I went all in. And I was doing all the work, showing up for 1 a.m. calls, all the calls. and doing all the work, but I was still not seeing results. And then I just started doing it my way, like, OK, ditch this process and let me just do what I was doing before. And then I started getting results. And what happened is I pitched a copywriter and she hired me based on that pitch. And she loved the pitch. She loved it so much that she asked me if I was open to come in and do a mini training about pitching in her Mastermind or her course for her students and I did that and I as I said, I share everything about LinkedIn I did that on LinkedIn and this mentor the person read that and then filed a lawsuit or like the whole the process around IP theft and It was a nightmare and Thank goodness I had mentors like Samar Owais, and CSP, Jo, and everyone. And I’ve never mentioned the name of the program nor the mentor, and I never will, because everyone’s running business, and these things happen. And no one ever should. 

We should all protect each other’s businesses, and that’s what I learned from one of the mentors as well. But they guided me throughout the whole time. And Samar was even available at 1 AM, 12 AM, because when it’s morning in America or in the West, it’s night here. So it was a very, very dark time. I did not have clients. I was facing this. And the main part was not about not seeing ROI, because how my brain is, even if I’m not seeing ROI from the particular thing, I’ll just do everything to get the ROI out of it. Like if the program is around funnels, maybe that particular funnels didn’t work for me, but I will do all external research on funnels and get funnels working for me. 

So which happened, but I was really, really hurt emotionally because theft is something like as Muslims and like our entire religion is based on faith. and being true and honest. And it’s for every good human, right? And I was really shattered. Someone’s calling me a thief. And I have worked so hard to build this name. And will it all be gone? What will happen? And there were many dis- I’m feeling so emotional. I’m getting goosebumps from sharing this. So it was a very, very difficult time. And I remember one day, I was almost in tears. All this time, I had I had anxiety, I couldn’t sleep, because all of this time I was checking any notification, like, is there an email? Is there an email? And I remember Abby checking in on LinkedIn, like, hey, are you doing fine? Abi Prendergast. And I was like, no. She’s like, let’s do a call. And I was weeping for 45 minutes straight. And then she said this, that six months later, you’ll be laughing about this, talking on a podcast. And it’s not six months yet, but it was a very difficult time. I still have nothing against the mentor or the program or nothing of that sort, but it would have saved me a lot of energy if I would have been mindful and not operated out of fear. And my biggest advice is to at least reach out to three students before joining any program, three to four students. So you have diverse feedback from those students, whatever the sales page says, because let’s face it, we are copywriters, it’s our job. And sometimes we are not all ethical, right? Whatever it says, do reach out to three, four students. And I want to pitch in here, I’m going to pause and pitch in for the copywriter underground, because I’m connected with a lot of copywriters, and they have said phenomenal things about the program. I’ve heard so many good things, like all about sharing like how it has impacted their overall business. And I didn’t do that. And I just had to face that in my first year in business. And I was really, like, we almost had the thought that, OK, how about we just shut it down? Or what can we do? But the mentors and the people who supported me helped me get through this.

Kira Hug: So just to clarify to make sure I understand, maybe I’m getting lost in the weeds. The lawsuit was because you were sharing some of the insights from the course, and that’s what triggered the lawsuit?

Alefiya Khoraki: That was the accusation. That was the accusation. But it wasn’t there. It was just me walking through three of my successful pitches.

Kira Hug: Got it.

Alefiya Khoraki: And I posted about that on LinkedIn. And directly, the email came in that, OK, this is an IP theft you’re sharing.

Kira Hug: So it sounds like it was already not a great experience for you and then that just, that just sunk.

Alefiya Khoraki: I wouldn’t say, I wouldn’t, yeah, I wouldn’t, yeah, I wouldn’t just put it out there, Kira, but maybe, yeah, it wasn’t, but it, yeah.

Kira Hug: Well, the question I would ask that could be relevant to people in our audience is what would you recommend to someone who is going through something difficult? It might not be a lawsuit. It could be something personal. It could be an issue with a family member. It’s just something that is depleting of energy and taking away from business focus and joy and leaving you feeling really hollow. And you mentioned support from your networks. I think you already covered that. But what other advice would you give to them?

Alefiya Khoraki: At that moment when you’re facing all this, you just want to slip in bed and do nothing. You don’t want to wake up. You don’t want to do client projects. You don’t want to do anything. So there’s nothing that can like, even if you try and watch shows, nothing happens. And it led to a lot of fights between me and my husband as well, because at that time he said not to invest here. And I was like, can you just trust my gut? And it turns out my gut sometimes is really shitty in these things. And then he’s like, you got us into this. And so those things happened. But the major thing is having mentors who have been in the game for five years, seven years, and paying for that directly. access. I know it can be a lot in the first year of the business or second year of the business. It just, it has so many more emotional, financial, so many benefits. And then having a peer group, which is not your family, but who are like in the business with you. If you’re a copywriter listening, copywriters, if you’re designers listening, designers who understand, like someone saying, you know, like, When I started and I was seeing all these success stories, I thought none of the successful copywriters had failed projects. But then as I had coffee chats with them, I go, yeah, this project failed and that project failed. I said, OK, this is so normal. These things happen, and I’m not the only one. And you can’t know all that until you start building those relationships. So relationships is the only advice I would give to people struggling.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. So while we’re talking, you mentioned your team, while we’re talking about this, you work with your husband, you said there are other people in the business. Obviously you, it’s a pretty young business and to already have a team, talk about the team that you’ve built and lessons you’ve learned along the way.

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah. So last year it was like a hiring and firing fest. So it was like one month I’m hiring this and the next month I’m firing. because I had no idea how to hire someone and how to fire and what to look. And then along the way, I built an SOP like, okay, this is what I’m looking for. This is what I need. So currently what my team is me, my husband and two other junior operators. And one of them handles the LinkedIn part as well for me. So she’s doing double jobs. Yeah, that’s it. Me, my husband. And so how it goes is I handle the whole PR and marketing side of the business. And client acquisition, that’s what I specialize in. My husband does accounts. We both do client work. And he is like, OK, where are the finances going? How do we keep investing? Is it time for a branding investment? Because my financial literacy is not that good. And he is really good at that. And then he handles the whole management side. OK, no. And then, yeah, so one thing before investing in programs, read contracts. Don’t just do it on the fly. I was like, yeah, I trust this person. Let me just do that. Don’t do that. Read contracts really thoroughly. If there are contracts and you can run them by a lawyer, do that. So now my husband takes care of all that, reading the contracts, reading them again and again, sending contracts to clients and all the I would not say techie side, but the managerial side of the business. And then I handle the client acquisition side and then we both do projects together. And then the team, it’s when I have like a lot of, um, they’re, they’re not exactly employees because last year I was doing on employee basis and it didn’t work out because sometimes you have, it was such a young business that I, I was, I wasn’t having that much income that I could have two full-time employees. So then I shifted to subcontractors. Then when I have excess work, I pass on to them and then I’m the one editing it. And then this year, what I’m planning is adding an editor to the whole process to make the entire copy delivering process more faster than what it was last year.

Kira Hug: What is the scope of the business? What does that look like today? The number of projects you’re working on per month, the type of projects you’re working on. You mentioned LinkedIn, ghost writing for LinkedIn.

Alefiya Khoraki: No, we don’t do that anymore. That was last year. So then we shifted to funnels and that’s when the business really picked up. So now we’re like this very, it’s very fresh since we started funnels like three months and I’m booked out till May end. And we’re doing like one or two projects per month, which is $14,000 per funnel. So yeah, that’s how it looks. And the scope is, it looks like a six figure year this year. My goal was 80K, so we’ve already like 60% covered that. So either we’ll take the year off after we hit that goal, or we’ll move it up to six figures. Scope is a lot. There is like easily, I know this is what hurts me a lot that some copywriters just get because I had a copywriting client and this is also what I want to share that I had a copywriting client like a copy coaching client and she just got into it because of how people are promising that how it’s so lucrative and you make so much money and blah blah and then she was like I’m learning all these new skills and I don’t even know English properly So you know that whole claim that you can get into this even if English is not your first language? It’s true, but you have to have a very serious passion for writing. If you’re just getting into the money, she paid like a lot of money, $2,500. And after four sessions, the fifth session was a therapy session-ish. And I was like, OK, you can do it. And she started crying. I felt so bad for her. She started crying that I can’t do this with my full-time job. all that and then she said okay I just can’t take it anymore and I’ll quit and I’ll go back to my teaching job and sometimes it really hurts and then I wrote I wrote that on LinkedIn too like don’t don’t enter this world because someone has promised you more money. Enter this world if you’re really passionate about writing, if you’re really passionate about marketing, if you’re willing to do whatever it takes to get the clients, get the work done, because even copywriting, it seems like it’s writing. It’s not. There’s so many layers and you can’t always learn enough. Then there’s tone of voice, there’s headlines. One time there’s how to begin emails and then there are personality driven emails. You just have to learn every single day. And if you have day jobs and if you have children and if you have other sort of issues and if you feel like you can’t do a lot, so at least don’t quit your job and don’t give up everything and start this. What do you think about that?

Rob Marsh: I tend to agree that it’s a good idea to have a lot of runway and to allow yourself the time to build a client list and all of that. But there’s also the tension that happens when you have something that’s safe And you can always go back to your day job that you don’t push as far into the thing that you want to do. So there’s a balance there. We’ve definitely worked with copywriters who had the day job and they held onto that so tightly that they couldn’t grow their copywriting job. And the flip side, you know, we’ve worked with copywriters who lost the day job, had to make it work, and within a year or two, you know, six-figure businesses, one that I know of with a seven-figure business, right? So those things happen, and there’s a tension there. So I agree with that caveat.

Alefiya Khoraki: But I feel they should not come into this business thinking it’s easy work, because it’s not. Like, if… 100% agree with that.

Kira Hug: Not, I mean, especially not in 2024. Like this is it’s, yeah, it’s never been easy, but it will only be it will only get harder to be top at your game. With competition with AI. You need to be. Yeah, I mean, it’s just that’s the truth. And that’s the reality of the future. So circling back to what you shared before you said, Something along the lines of, you know, all I need is 24 hours and I can get money in the door. I can get a client in the door. But there was that one period where that wasn’t working for you. So let’s say there’s a copywriter listening.

Alefiya Khoraki: That was the period I was going through this whole lawsuit as well. So I was not in that mind game. But yeah, even external things. And then I’ve heard many successful copywriters, Iman, Shanti, all talk about that particular month, they did not have clients. So I didn’t, I don’t know if December was just a month where we heard that too.

Kira Hug: So, but let’s say there’s a copywriter listening, they want a client, they want to have that client in the next 24 hours. What are three things you would say, go do this now? And I almost guarantee, or maybe you can guarantee, you can have a client in 24 hours. Or maybe it’s just one thing.

Alefiya Khoraki: The first thing I would do is look at my most successful project and circle that client and see if they’re okay with me sharing the results and the case study with whoever I wish to share. Then I look for 10 friends of that particular client. not just anyone else, 10 particular friends of that client. Maybe I could find them from social media following or people who’ve been commenting and going down that rabbit hole, but finding friends or people who are connected with, but first getting the client’s consent that if he or she is okay with me sharing this with other people. And then because it just shortens the cycle so much when you share the name that that’s a friend or they know. So I would just do that and then reach out to them via LinkedIn or directly, but I would not even ask the client to make the recommendation because sometimes it takes a lot of time. Sometimes it takes like, okay, maybe next week or this, if I want a client fast, I’ll do it myself. So reaching out to that 10 clients will, if, and if you’ve worked, if that person is a little influential or Even if that’s not influential, but has the power to lead to at least $1,000 project, I would do that, first thing. Second, if you’re active on any social media platform, see people who are liking your posts, commenting on your posts. And if they are anywhere around your ICP, don’t reach out to them saying, hey, I need a client or blah, blah, blah. Just open a conversation and talk about how you’re looking for someone like them. 

One sneaky trick I’ve done is if I really want to work with you, Kira, I would reach out to you and say, Hey, Kira, I recently worked with XYZ and I would love to have clients like Rob. And you identify as Rob as well. That should be the thing. And would you mind being an affiliate or Would you mind making an introduction knowing how much your authority holds? And three times that message has yielded, hey, thank you for this message. And then obviously mentioning a name. I’ve worked with this name, who they might identify, sometimes they might not. And then you can link that, OK, this person has these many followers or this is the type of person I’ve worked with. And many of the times they have said, I’m interested in something like this. So it just lifts off the pressure for them saying, OK, you pitched me. but you’re actually looking to pitch them, but just pitching them as an affiliate. So sometimes it’s genuine as well. You’re looking to get them as an affiliate, but it also helps that because sometimes this, the pitching has become so saturated. Like I’ll get you this, I’ll do this. I’ll do that. And our inbox are so flooded that this just lifts off the pressure that, okay, I’m not getting pitched. I’m just getting welcomed to do something. And if I’m interested, I’ll say yes. The second thing, The third thing, I think that’s pretty much the two things which would help.

Rob Marsh: The third thing is pay attention to the first and second things.

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, let’s do it again.

Rob Marsh: You know, as you talk about this too, Alefiya, one of the things with that pitch strategy, when you ask the person that you’ve worked with who is like you or who can I reach out to and they give you that name, adding them as a CC when you send that pitch that says, hey, Kira recommended that I reach out to you because and then Kira’s copied on the email. That’s just another bit of social proof. Obviously, if Kira didn’t recommend that I reach out to this person, she might jump in with a, you know, an email saying, wait a second, I didn’t reach. So it’s that proof and makes it even more real and gives that person an opportunity to respond. And so just, yeah, another thing to do if you follow that strategy, which is a really good strategy for getting a response. Whether or not you get the work, who knows, but it’s a great way to start that relationship for sure.

Alefiya Khoraki: I love that. I’m going to try that.

Rob Marsh: So as we get to the end of our interview with you, Alefiya, one thing that I’m wondering is, okay, what have you got planned for your business coming up? You’ve obviously made some really big changes in the products that you offer, the services that you do for your clients. You have this big goal of six figures. You’ve moved into doing more funnels. What else is happening in your business that’s going to produce big results in the future?

Alefiya Khoraki: One thing is I’m not looking to scale very fast this year. I’m being intentional about it, not taking more projects, although I can with the two people I have, but I’m trying to be a little slow here so that nothing is rushed and everything feels like, okay, I have control over everything. So that’s the business side of it. And the second side is I have nothing, like no website, no branding. nothing, no email list. And it’s time that I take these things seriously. Because now, if someone is inviting me to speak in a summit, all I’ve got to share is my LinkedIn profile, which was working with me fine. But now if I want to step up a little as an authority, so I currently have just a random Google Docs sales page, which is also one thing that If you don’t have all the things in place, if you don’t have a fancy website, if you’re intimidated with tech, design, and all the things, maybe you don’t have the time to figure out, OK, who to hire for branding here. You’re all about Branding, I know. But if you’re just getting started and you’re intimidated, I pushed all these things because of my fear of this. And then I was like, OK, one fine day, I just launched a Google Docs sales page. And that sales page, it has been like three months, and it has already brought in 30K worth of projects just from the sales page alone, a Google Doc sales page on my LinkedIn. So starting messy is fine. 

So that’s the second thing going on in the business. I’m looking to get these assets in place. And the third thing is looking to do more speaking opportunities. I had a speaking coach as a client, and then I wavered off a part of the project fee. She was one of my first funnel projects. And then she got me a ticket into her speaking bootcamp. So I’m looking to improve my speaking skills while I do that. Um, I’ve practiced that. I know that’s how I, Kira, I reached out to you like, okay, we were talking in that LinkedIn comments and you’re playing as opposed to, and you’re like, okay, which, so I’m looking to go on more podcasts. I have a goal of 30 and 24 doing at least, two to three guest trainings and masterminds than more of the speaking side of things this year.

Kira Hug: Amazing. And I’m curious to hear what you think the future of copywriting looks like as you think out maybe not too far into the future, maybe the next two or three years. What excites you? What opportunities do you see?

Rob Marsh: What does that look like?

Alefiya Khoraki: The thing which has helped me personally is I don’t think I’ve got business because of being a copywriter. I’ve got business because of being a strategist and a consultant. And I could do that because I had this whole bakery business experience, which really helps you think like a business owner. These are the moving pieces, these are marketing pieces. And even though I was working for LinkedIn, I saw the aerial view of the business. And that’s where your price point can be justified a lot. So I feel the future of copywriting is more of consultancy, strategy, and, of course, AI. But I’ve still not dipped my toes into AI. It’s something that really overwhelms me. And I’m still doing fine without it, at least till now. But I plan to get someone on board on my team who handles that part. So you can’t neglect that. So it’s part of that, you have to catch up on it, maybe streamline some of your processes and learn AI. So if it doesn’t work for you, hire someone to do that. But strategy and AI is here to be for the next at least five years.

Rob Marsh: Well, when you’re ready, Althea, we have a course for copywriters and content writers about AI, how to use it. It’s got some good stuff in there, so you can check that out. Yes.

Alefiya Khoraki: I’m telling someone from a team to get on that course.

Rob Marsh: There you go. Yeah, for sure. So we want to thank you for joining us. And you already told us you don’t have a website for us to link to, but you are on LinkedIn. Is that where people should go to find out more about you or to connect with you?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yes, LinkedIn it is. You’ll find me there. And yes, I’m always there answering the DMs, answering the comments. So you can always reach out to me.

Rob Marsh: Amazing. We’ll find you there. Thank you.

Kira Hug: Thank you so much.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Aleffia Karaki. I want to just add a couple of thoughts like I usually do. So you’ve got a couple of things to think about as you walk away from this episode. 

Now, we mentioned this in the intro, but it was funny that Alefiya didn’t actually mention this until the very end of the podcast, but she has no website. She has no branding. She’s never taken a branding photograph. She’s never thought about the positioning from that standpoint. She’s never done any email pitching. Everything that Aleffia has done is done on LinkedIn, and she’s built a six-figure business. So if you have any questions about whether it’s possible, it absolutely is possible. Not only that, but she’s done it from India and she’s done it in less than a year. So that just demonstrates the power of LinkedIn as a place to go to connect with the kinds of clients that can hire you for the work that you want to do. If you haven’t been on LinkedIn posting content or even commenting on other people’s content, dialing in your profile, do those things and get there because especially for certain industries, but almost everybody is there and you’re able to connect with just so many potential clients worth checking out. So go back and listen to what we’ve talked about here, as well as some of the previous episodes we’ve done recently with people like Alex Thompson and how they’re using LinkedIn in their business. 

Let me just reiterate what Alefiya’s approach was. She mentioned that she would post every single day. She would comment 50 times. That’s a pretty good amount of comments. And when you’re commenting on LinkedIn, you don’t want to just comment something and say, Hey, yep. Great. I agree. Do you want to be adding something to the discussion? So it will take a little bit of brainpower. You probably don’t have to comment 50 times, but. Alifia did it and it created this six figure business for her. She was also making 10 connection requests every single day. And less than a year later, she has almost 5,000 followers on LinkedIn. That’s 5,000 people who see her content show up in their feeds almost every single day. She also mentioned that she was reposting old content that got a response. So, you know, it’s content ages out after three or four months, maybe six months or even a year, reusing that content is a great way to not have to reinvent the wheel and to connect with additional people who’ve started following you in the past few months, people that the algorithm will find for you. So that’s the approach. Post every day, comment, make connection requests and accumulate your followers. And if you’re doing it the way that Alephia has done it, you could create a very significant business using LinkedIn. 

There’s one other thing that Alefiya talked about. She mentioned several other examples of copywriters that she started to follow and mimic. She mentioned Eman Zabi, Asai Arasi, Prerna Malik, Samar Awais. All of them have been on the podcast before. I didn’t have time to look up the episode numbers so that you can listen to what they shared, but jump into your podcast player and look up those people, Aman, Asai, Prerna, and Samar. and you’ll learn from them as Aleffia did. But something else to note is all of these people weren’t just guests on the Copywriter Club podcast. They actually participated in our programs. Eman was part of the Copywriter Accelerator. Asai, Perna, and Aman all were members of the Copywriter Think Tank. And All four of them have been in the Copywriter Underground at some point or another. So if you really want to succeed like some of the people that you see out there, as Alefiya mentioned, it makes sense to imitate and do the things that they do. And if they’ve gotten great results from a particular program, whatever, it might be worth considering. 

Now, of course, As Alefya also pointed out, you don’t want to be operating from a place of fear when selecting a program or a course or anything else that you’re investing in. So keep that in mind. But there are definitely worse people to follow than the ones that Alefya has mentioned. Aman, Asai, Prerna, and Samar are all just fantastic writers and good people and worth listening to their podcast episodes if you’d like a little bit more. 

Okay, I want to thank Aleffia for joining us to chat about her business and how she uses LinkedIn to attract clients so that she doesn’t have to cold pitch. She doesn’t need a website. She doesn’t need to do all of the things that so many of us have been doing. You can connect with her, of course, on LinkedIn. Just look for Aleffia Karaki when you’re there. And don’t forget that you can get your hands on the AI training document that I mentioned at the top of the show when you go to thecopyrighterclub.com/AIwriter. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast.

 

Want clients to find you instead of always having to pitch and find them? Then you need to be where they are. And in most cases, that means somewhere online—Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, LinkedIn or in your own newsletter. In the 390th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with former dentist turned copywriter Kieran Drew about how he took two years to grow an online presence that earns him six figures a year today. This one is worth listening to twice. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Blockbuster Principle by Michael Simmons (article)
The Almanack of Naval Ravakan
Poor Charlie’s Almanack by Charlie Munger
The Status Game by Will Storr
Mastery by Robert Greene
Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
HypeFury (posting tool)

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Last week I started off the podcast by talking about the idea of slow and steady growth. This week is a little different. It’s about overnight success. Or rather, what might look like overnight success, but really is a two year effort to build and iterate something that works.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and social media expert and not-so-funny stand up comic Kieran Drew. Kieran is one of those over night success stories. When I first came across him online, he was in the middle of a six-figure launch that surprised even him. And in the year since then, he’s done it twice more. But the back story is less instant recognition and more grind and fail, then grind and fail again until something works. 

But before we get to what Kieran shared about launches, growing a newsletter and social media presence and why he gave up a promising career and guaranteed income for something a lot riskier like copywriting, I want to mention again our free report called how to find clients. I recently took a week to rework and revise one of our most popular client finding  resources… this report. it’s completely updated for 2024 and now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… many of them could help you attract a client in the next 24 hours. Wither we’ve used these ourselves, or we know other successful copywriters who have landed good, high-paying clienets with them. I’ve said it before…This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. In fact, if you’re just going to download it to get to it later, don’t bother. It’s too valuable to not get used. But if you’re ready to take action and go after a new client, this report includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. Get your copy now at  thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kieran.

Kira Hug: All right, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Yeah, sure.

Kieran Drew: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on because I have devoured your podcast. When I first heard of writing and copywriting, I must have listened to like 80 of your episodes because it was a very exciting and scary world, copywriting.

Rob Marsh: So you only have 320 to go, it sounds like.

Kieran Drew:  I know.I had to start doing the work at one point. It’s been a massive help. I got into copywriting while I was a dentist, up until a couple of years ago and when COVID hit. I never really enjoyed my job as a dentist. The pay was pretty good, but unfortunately, I was working six days a week and I sort of lacked that creative fulfillment. And when COVID hit, obviously we couldn’t see patients from home. So I had a couple of months and I thought, you know what, let’s have a little look at what we could do here. 

And I actually decided to be a standup comedian and I started writing jokes in the morning and thankfully no one actually heard my jokes, but what I noticed was those few hours in the morning when I was writing flew by. And that was my first taste of flow. So I started to ask myself, how can we build a writing career from this? And I found blogging. I sucked at all that. I failed for like a year. I built a website that all went terribly. I tried writing on Instagram, Reddit, and it all just failed one bit after another. 

And then I met a friend on Twitter and he said, have you ever heard of this thing called copywriting? And until that time I thought copywriting was for lawyers, right? Like the circle with the R. Iit was really cool to realize that you can combine writing with persuasion and psychology. I fell in love. I mean, I sucked at it. I’m still not that great, but I fell in love with it from there.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk a little bit about moving away from what you did before. Obviously you’re not entirely happy with your career, even though you’re making pretty good money. Let’s talk about the mindset a little bit and the shift. Because when you’ve invested so much time, schooling, effort, energy into something, it feels like there’s a lot of tendency to be stuck and to want to remain and to finish. You may not have been happy, but you had invested so much into your career. Talk about that mindset shift and what it took to step away from that into something,  as you describe it, totally unknown.

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I mean, the toughest point probably was right at the start when I sort of knew that the career was okay. I wasn’t ever, I was never really that mad about it. Like I said, the pay was pretty good, so I never really questioned it, but unfortunately dentistry is not really transferable. So I used to feel really desperate, um, going into work. And I remember listening to podcasts of creative people thinking, Oh God, I’m in the wrong career, but there’s literally nothing you can do. And so stupidly, like a bad gambler, my, my plan was to double down. So I started specializing, I took a second job and I thought, look, if you can slog this out for 10, 15 years, at least you have enough money. If you save well and invest, you can at least try to retire early and do something else.

And what happened there was, so I started doing okay at dentistry and I remember listening to Seth Godin and he was talking about sunk cost bias. I’d never heard of it before. And I was like, well, here it is. You know, I’ve spent 10 years on a career, uh, over six figures in training. And I always thought because of that, you know, the first 10 years of your career should dictate the next 50. And when you think about that on paper, it’s like, how stupid is that? And, when I realized this, then it actually got a bit harder because every day I drove to work, I was like, you’re making a big mistake. You, you become aware of the opportunity cost of time. But the only good part was it was quite exciting to finally go, “you know what? Changing careers is always really overwhelming because you’re always focusing on things like expert status.” And I was like, “you know, let’s just start by exploring and curiosity. And you’re not here to make money. There’s no pressure on the result. Let’s just get good at a different skill.” And that was really fun. But over time, it’s a bit like having a stone in your shoe, Rob, where you think you could ignore it, but the more you walk, the more it annoys you. And I was coming to work and I was like, I really do feel like I’m in the wrong job here. 

My plan was to slowly transition. I go down to three days a week at dentistry, start building up the writing career and do that over sort of five years. I’m really risk averse or I used to be anyway. And what actually happened was, my boss texts me the day before I was meant to start a new job three days a week. And he texts me being like, oh, the clinic isn’t ready for another month. And we’ve been waiting nine months to work together. And I was, I remember I was so happy I was in this flat and I was running up and down fist pumping because I was like, yes, I don’t have to work for a month. I get to ride for a month. 

And when that sort of settled down, I was like, how screwed up is this that you’re celebrating so much to do something you love? Maybe this is actually a sign to back out. And I have never been so scared in my life, man. I called my mom, my dad, all my friends being like, “I think I’m going to quit my career here.” And it’s way too early. Everyone was just saying, go for it. At the end of the day, you can always go back. This isn’t a fatal decision.

And then I went to see the boss again. People say I was brave. I had a panic attack outside the practice. I remember I was walking past the door, went to knock, panicked, went to the alleyway, stood in the alleyway for like five minutes. And then when I actually came in, I spent half an hour talking to nurses about jobs I’ll never do and materials I’ll never use and all that. Eventually when I got into his office, I said, yeah, I’m done. And he said something similar where it’s like, oh, you’re throwing away 10 years of a career you’re only 10 years in. And I was like, precisely, there’s never a good time to quit. It’s now. Right. So yeah, a scary decision, but in retrospect went really well.

Kira Hug: I always wonder when people feel this change of heart, if you know, for you, did you love dentistry in the beginning or do you feel like you just, you started on a path that was really never something you loved or did something change for you over those 10 years?

Kieran Drew: We’re expected to pick a career before we can pick a car, right? So, I mean, I decided to do dentistry from about 16 years old. And at the time it felt like the right choice because I’m not sure what it’s like in America, but it’s dentist, lawyer, or doctor, you’ve made it. 

I come from a working class family and so no one’s really graduated from uni. So I was like, hell yeah, this is going to be it. And it felt like the golden ticket. And yes, when I was at uni, I was like, Ooh, it’s not actually that fun staring in someone’s mouth all day. And, I’ve got quite a bad neck and back and I was always sore. And it was like, you kind of ignore these little signals. Because we always used to joke, Oh, you know, we’ll have the Porsche and the golf play golf all day. And I don’t like cars that much. I don’t play golf. And so when I graduated, that’s where it started to sink home. It’s like golden handcuffs sort of thing. 

I was happy when the paychecks were coming in, just so I could invest and save. But it doesn’t really solve that Monday morning anxiety. Right? And I think the more I started reading about philosophy and what you’re doing with your life, it was, it was kind of like, I don’t know, it seemed to me, you can’t really do great work until you’re loving what you do. The more I realized that the more it just felt like time to throw it away and start a new career.

Rob Marsh: And then as you started exploring, playing around with it, when stuff isn’t working, you created a website—blogging—it wasn’t working. How did you stick with it knowing that there’s a positive business outcome here? You know, writing is one thing. Lots of people have books in their drawers that never get published or they’ve written bad poetry and never make any money. But how did you keep going through all of that?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It’s easy to paint the story in retrospect. I think I’m going to try not do that. I’ll be a hundred percent honest. I think fear is a brilliant motivator. I really started hating my job that much that I was like, you have to keep trying. So that was pretty handy. The other side of it, I remember having a conversation with my girlfriend and I was like, look, this is going to suck. So let’s expect results in two years, not two months. And that was one metric I constantly ran through where I was like, okay, we’re at month 10, nothing’s working, but you said two years. And ironically, actually the 24th month was my first 10 K month, but it took me 13 months to make $1. So I think zooming out has always helped. 

It’s really easy just to say: have faith. I think that really helps people that much because having faith is having complete confidence that something will work. You don’t really get that until you’ve done it. But I used to just look at people who had done it and thought if they could do it, why can’t I? I always said for copywriting, if I could get paid 4k a month or something, I would be in heaven. So I don’t need to be this six, seven figure copywriter. And so it was always like, if they can get to that, surely processes out there somewhere. A combination of those things.

Kira Hug: I have one more question about dentistry before we fully move on, we’ll see if this comes out the way… you’ve worked with a lot of people, you’ve seen the inside of their mouth. What frustrates you the most about patients? Is it they just don’t floss no matter how many times you tell them? Why can’t they just adult and floss and be a good adult?

Rob Marsh: I think this is the second time we’ve mentioned flossing on the podcast in 400 episodes. 

Kira Hug: Are you sure we’ve talked about it before? 

Rob Marsh: I mentioned I floss every day on a previous episode. I am a daily flosser.

Kira Hug: I do now because of tiny habits. Anyway…

Kieran Drew: To be honest, from what I’ve heard, you Americans are much better at flossing than us Brits.

Rob Marsh: I don’t know that that’s true across the board though. I don’t know very many people who floss every day. One of my friends is a really good dentist. This is not a dentistry podcast, but one of my good friends is a dentist. And he says, if you look at the amount of floss used in America, it averages to like two feet per person per year, which means nobody’s really flossing.

Kieran Drew: Well, the flossing bit didn’t annoy me because I get why people don’t. I mean, it’s very hard to do the whole vitamin versus painkiller thing, right? People start flossing when they come to me, the gums are knackered. The thing that was actually quite tough as a dentist. And one of the main reasons I quit was because… well actually two… for one, no one is happy to see you. And that’s actually quite tough, like emotionally. You know, dentists have one of the highest suicide rates. Every single time you meet someone, you have to be very affable. If anything goes wrong, you’re to blame. And you know, the good part of that is I actually learned a lot about how to talk to people because I’ve never been that great at that. But when you meet 40 people a day,  you learn how to do that stuff. So that was pretty good, but it got very demotivating. I’m quite a positive guy. If you’re quite empathetic, you take on a lot of people’s problems. So I used to be exhausted every day. So that was quite tough. 

And the other side is perverse incentives. So I don’t know what it’s like in America, but the NHS system, you’re kind of rewarded to be on a hamster treadmill. And so you’re incentivized to not do the best work because your business will go bust. And, iif you’re in a broken incentive system over time, it begins to warp the way you think. One thing I’ve really liked about being online is that everyone’s happy to see you if you’re here to make people money and save them time. Right? I think that that’s brilliant and you can really set up win-wins for everyone. And so that’s what I’ve been doing since.

Kira Hug: All right. I’ll be nicer to my dentist next time.

Kieran Drew: They treat you better as well if you like that.

Rob Marsh: So Kieran, let’s talk about your business today and what it looks like. You know, I actually think, you know, 13 months to the first dollar is an amazing runway. It takes a lot of faith in yourself that you’re going to make it work. 24 months to get to 10K, but you’re doing better than that today from what I’ve seen online and from what other people have said about you. Our mutual friend, John Bijakovic talks highly of you. So tell us about your business today.

Kieran Drew: It’s been a bit of a pinch yourself moment, but this is my 24th month in monetizing. So in two weeks of the 31st of March. I launched my first product two years ago. That was a 5k launch. Uh, that’s probably the biggest rush I’ve ever had to find out that internet money is real after 13 months. That was incredible. Then it was a very scrappy 12 months where I just tried to do everything. I was doing ghostwriting, consulting, coaching… I had my digital product. I was building the email list. I was just trying to, you don’t really know what you like until you try it, right? So I was just saying yes to everything. Like a lot of people, I was a burned out shell after about nine months. But it got me to my first six figures within 12 months. And at that point I said, look, I’m struggling to get anywhere over 8K a month because I was so busy. I couldn’t think straight. And so I decided to cut away everything and just do two things. Which was writing—the more clients I was signing on, I was writing less  because a lot of it was coaching. I wasn’t doing my own writing. And Product building, because I think serving people at scale is really, really fun. I love leverage. I find it fascinating. So when I made that decision in January, 2023, I launched my flagship product because everyone was just like a swipe file in May. 

I was going into my second launch. I was going in expecting 30 K, which I would have been buzzing about. And it ended up going to 140K in four days. And so that was absolutely crazy. It felt like a massive fluke. And then I relaunched again in September and that was 180 K. Then we launched another product in November for black Friday, which is like the MRR, which is at maybe 4 or 5K a month now. And then I actually just refilmed my whole flagship product. I wasn’t that happy with it. So I completely rebuilt it and gave it away to my current customers for free. And that was 120 K. So actually in the past two years, we just crossed 750 K, which is again, crazy to me. Like absolutely wild.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. Can you talk about the product a little bit about what it is and just how you launched it? I mean, anyone listening might think, okay, I want to launch a product and have a 140 K launch. What do I need to do to get there? What had you done before that?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I mean, so the, just a quick TLDR for the product is called high impact writing. Uh, it’s a social media writing product primarily. And the reason I built it was because actually it didn’t exist when I was writing. So I mentioned to you guys at the start, my sort of journey was I was going to be a copywriter and, but I ended up getting into the social media world and, um, I started to grow quite fast because when you learn the fundamentals of copy, it really works on social media. A lot of copywriters aren’t involved on social media and a lot of social media people are terrible writers. And I wanted to bridge that gap. So, um, thankfully that went quite well in terms of the launch stuff. So, I mean, when people say, how do you have a six figure launch? I always say the first answer is I spent the first year sucking at my first product. Cause you know, it was a 5k launch. I launched as quietly as I could. I was terrified to promote myself. And then throughout the year I was like, well, we’re going to have to learn how to sell this thing. So. What actually happened with high impact writing, uh, we’ve got the email list. So, um, probably at the time there were 15,000 subscribers on that, uh, maybe a little bit more. The biggest change was, uh, again, the concept from Seth Godin and about tension, because you only have four days to launch a product, maybe five, depending on how long you want to do it. And so what, um, I found fascinating is like an elastic band and the longer and harder that you pull. When you let go of that band, the bigger the snap at the end. So for high impact writing, I think maybe four months, four or five months before I started, uh, uh, marketing it. Didn’t know what it was called. Didn’t even know what I was building. I just said, um, on my emails, just at the top, by the way, a few people have been asking about my writing systems. Click it if you want to join the waiting list. And so gradually started building up a wait list as we were going. And I started to use that as ways to test ideas. So for example, if I were to write, um, a post on data driven growth, I’d say, if this is interesting to you, we click on this link and I’ll pop it on the waitlist. And I could see the bits that people loved. So I could use that for the sales page and a copy later on. Uh, and then all, all I began to do to build more attention, cause you can only talk about your product so much. So I’m a huge fan of building in public. So I was very inviting for people to be like, Hey, do you want to get involved in this? What can I help you with? How can I help you doing loads of free courses? I started telling the story of the build. So I was showing the slides, I’m showing the filming process, the bloopers, having a good laugh about it, saying that, you know, I’m losing all my hair building this product. And then the whole point I carry over is that like on the day of the launch, nobody was surprised it was coming. A lot of people were excited. They could see the effort, but in the value and, um, Uh, I guess we’ll say in terms of why it hits six figures before that I had released, um, six free courses, maybe eight. So I’m a huge fan of this like reciprocation, right? I thought let’s give everything we know for free. High impact writing is just the concise systems of everything we know. And that’s how I framed it. Uh, so when I actually came to launch day, you know, the, the mechanisms really it’s urgency and scarcity. So, um. Four days, I think the first one was five. I’m never going over four again. Launches are exhausting. They’re exhausting for you. They’re exhausting for the customer. Four days, I think it’s the sweet spot. Inside there, it became like, it’s just maths by the end of it, right. Or math for you guys, um, where attention to the page, certain conversion rate. And so, uh, I started sending more emails, uh, two to four emails per day, slightly segmented. So, you know, if you’re on the wait list, you got four, if you’re on my full list, you get two. Uh, the urgency was for the first launch was you can only buy it for these four days and then I’m closing it because I want to improve the product with people. And it’s not, I mean, people don’t give enough reasons when they, you know, oh, this is open close. It’s like, no, you have to like, people aren’t idiots. We’re all online here. It’s like, you have to give justifications. And so I just said, look, I want to work really closely with my customers, which actually built hype for the second launch because it was like, this guy’s taking this product really seriously. Um, and just tell me where you want to go with that. Cause I’ll just keep going.

Kira Hug: One thing I just want to dig into is you said you have, you had 15,000 subscribers on your list.

Kieran Drew: Yeah.

Kira Hug: So could you just touch on how you had built your list over time? I mean, from social media, I imagine. Yeah. But that’s, that’s a good list to go into a launch with. Yeah.

Kieran Drew: It’s, I’m grateful to have it, uh, 90 now, maybe a little bit less at the time. It was probably about 98% social media. So fully organic. Uh, the only downside to what I had done was I gave away, um, I know a lot of what we call giveaways. So if you guys are on social media at the moment, but, uh, they’re not great. And so like, it’s like, Oh, we give away stuff. You have to give me your email address to get the thing. And I was chasing the numbers, but what I didn’t realize was that the quality of lead that was quite poor. So my churn weight was really high. 

I’ve stopped doing that for like a year now. And the only other thing that I’ve changed, I tried a little bit of courage. So, you know, when someone joins another person’s list, you get recommended, Hey, join Kieran Drew’s and you pay two bucks per subscriber, even with the filters on spark loop, where it’s, you know, if they unsubscribe within two weeks, so they get the welcome sequence for that. The ROI was pretty poor. I think I spent two, three grand as an experiment. And I made two grand or a grand and a half, so probably some tweaks there. So I wasn’t a fan of co-regging. 

Then the other thing now that I’ve been doing is cross promotions. So I realized that you can only do so much work yourself, but there are a lot of people out there that are building really good bonds with their audience. And I just started reaching out and making the ask, right? A lot of us writers are introverted. I hate asking people for stuff, but I just started sending messages, starting with people around my level and just saying, Hey, do you want to promote my list? I’ll promote your list. And it’s been a really cool way to cross populate. And now I’m very grateful to say people like Chris Orzakowski have been helping out and John Morrow. And I’ve just been asking people if they wanted to swap lists and promote. So that’s pretty much all the growth.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk about what you were doing on social media. I know this is a lot of what you teach in your course, so I’m not asking for a free course. But obviously, there’s some basics here that copywriters need to be aware of. You mentioned a lot of copywriters in social media are doing it wrong or not taking advantage, maybe, of the copywriting skills that we have. We’re taking pictures of our breakfasts and sharing those, all of that stuff. So what should we be doing, you know, or maybe I’m asking for, you know, what are your top two or three tips for what we need to be doing differently when we’re showing up on social media?

Kieran Drew: Funnily enough, it’s kind of like if we’re writing a sales page, uh, we all know that it’s about the customer, right? It’s exactly the same on social media. It’s like having a funnel where social media is the top of the funnel and you’re working people down. And so, Um, saying that we need to be talking about what’s in it for the reader and the way I kind of frame that we have three pillars of magnetic writing to attract and it’s advice, personality, and storytelling. And so I tried to kind of do a bit of a combination of this, depending on your platform. So, um, I’m primarily on X, uh, LinkedIn is pretty popular now as well. Um, on X, you probably post three times a day on LinkedIn. You’d post once is the only difference. And. What I suggest to people is trying to get this blend of, if you’re just giving advice, you’re competing with chat GPT. So there’s no kind of real reason for someone to actually like you. If you’re just personality, I, you know, you’re just talking about politics or whatever. Um, you’re interesting to read, but it doesn’t really build a strong brand. And if you’re just storytelling, there’s no utility. And so what I suggest to people is you think, well, what’s we’ve got one person in mind. We’re going to write to our, I say one true fan, our avatar. And what’s the most useful stuff we can give to help them win? Just giving advice that don’t go too in depth because it’s social media. That’s we don’t consume social media for crazy about depth, which is one big mistake. I see it particularly with new people that have got a lot of expertise. Um, what sort of advice can we give to help them win? How can we address their beliefs? You know, what are they seeing, thinking and feeling? And I think. big mistake we make, particularly me, uh, most of us hate being polarizing or we hedge our bets. And so, um, I always say to crank the dial a little bit. I don’t know. I’m not, don’t be like a dick for, sorry about my language, um, for engagement purposes, but you know, like if you’ve got a strong belief, there’s like a seven chances are when you’re writing on social media, unless you’re someone like Andrew Tate, you dial it down to a five, but actually what you want to do, you need that seven or eight because super, super noisy on social media. And so to slice through it and reach your fans, you have to pick certain messages that you can double down on, starting from a few areas. Um, so that’s very, very short, brief social media side. And like you said, no, uh, but pictures of your food and stuff. It’s not actually that bad if it’s the occasional bit of personality, if you really love cooking, but people are here to learn and be inspired. So.

Rob Marsh: So just to bring this home, can you give us some examples of the way you crank up the dial in your posts so that you’re getting that kind of attention?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It depends on who your enemy is. So my enemies evolved over time. I used to be very anti 9 to 5. And so my most viral tweets have been insulting the boss. I could probably actually have a quick look at one here. But yeah, just looking at the bosses saying stuff like no boss has ever said I care about my workers, creativity, health and happiness, which is why you need to employ yourself. People love this sort of stuff where you’re throwing stones at other people. Again, similar with like sales pages. And these days I am more kind of focused on peace of mind, clarity. I think the thing that’s helped me most as a writer is being able to think straight. And so I actually ironically like to throw a lot of stones at social media and, you know, like constantly scrolling and all that sort of stuff. So. Um, getting clear on an enemy and just trying to articulate yourself in what I call sticky statements. So using stuff like alliteration, rhythm and rhyme juxtaposition, uh, these are quite nice writing tools, just kind of condensing your best ideas into presentation. That’s the shorter form stuff. 

And then the longer form stuff would be more the value-based, you know, the steps, the tricks, the blueprints. And, um, one thing that. One thing that’s good for your audience copywriters is that 90% of people in social media have no results. They want to build the audience and have the product, but they haven’t got anything to talk about. And so whenever I talk to someone new that ‘s experienced, like I was just chatting to David Deutsch, he’s been on X for a little while now as well. And it was like, hey, you’ve got so much reputation here to tap into. You have to be your own cheerleader. And so in the hooks, the framing, I say like, you have to talk about yourself as much as you can without coming across as like, hey, look at me. So if you’re comfortable with mentioning revenue numbers, but even just talking about like, hey, I was working with a client instead of it being here are seven random copywriting tips. It’s like, you know, I’ve been working with 67 clients over the past five years. Here are my seven favorite tips. Every single person who reads that now knows that you’re the real deal. So trying to identify your skip the lines as you’re writing, it’s people don’t trust you until you prove who you are. So it’s a great way to put your foot in the door.

Kira Hug: Do you have additional ideas to help us, you know, really speak to our experience and expertise? Cause I agree. I think that’s just, I mean, I know I’ve struggled with that where I’m like, I don’t mention how many clients I’ve worked with. I just, I know it’s important, but I just, it’s a struggle. Um, yeah. Other strategies.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I mean, like, uh, unfortunately the part about social media is it comes with a certain level of cringe. And you have to decide that level and that’s okay for you. So I think the ultimate one or the big discussion is, are you happy to share revenue numbers? Because unfortunately we’re all just monkeys with mobile phones, right? And people pay attention to money the most, but if you’re not, you can frame it in different ways. I have a number of clients even talking about projects that you’re working on. So, you know, if you were to say that you were building out a 2020 email sequence, all of these things are kind of what most people aren’t doing. So just trying to frame your projects and the way you’ve been working or how long you’ve been a copywriter, or the fact that you guys have almost 300 episodes or 300 or more episodes of all of these things, are little reputation builders. And then I have to remind myself sometimes to be my own cheerleader because I’m like, God, I really don’t want to talk about myself here, but just having a couple of words completely changes the framing of what you say. And having that personal perspective, you know, the problem on social media is it’s full of everyone telling other people what to do. 

But if you’re talking from like, Hey, this is what I did. So you’re swapping all of your how to’s to how I’s or being a guide instead of a guru, it’s really welcoming. And. The way I tried to frame it for people is if you post a hundred things on social media that are just platitudes and shouting from a podium versus a hundred posts that are like, here’s what I’m learning, doing, and thinking. The second person is going to have a hundred times better relationship with that audience. So even if they don’t grow as fast and that’s really important to know, uh, I’ve smoked the digital dopamine crack pipe way too much. When, when I started, when I realized I could say certain things, uh, to go viral, I was writing stuff, um, like. eight habits you must do before 8am and going viral. And then, uh, I, I certainly realized that, you know, reputation is much more important than reach. And so how you grow your audience is more important than how fast. So hopefully there are a few ideas there for you.

Kira Hug: Well I was writing a post for LinkedIn and now I think I have to redo it because and pull in my own experience into that post. So it doesn’t feel like it’s just like preachy. So I think that’s, that’s really good advice.

Rob Marsh: So Kieran, there’s a lot of stuff that I’d love to dive into on your process and how you create the content. But first, I want to ask about engagement. Because it’s one thing to post, and then there’s a whole other thing around, do you comment? Do you engage with people in direct messaging, whether it’s on LinkedIn or Twitter or wherever? How do you approach that side of it? If you have a post that goes viral, you could spend all day responding to comments.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I was smiling because I hate this stuff.

Rob Marsh: So do I, this is why I have struggled so much, especially with Twitter or X..

Kieran Drew: I mean everything has a cost and being, I have before, before I started on social media, I took a five year break from all social media. I thought it’s the most shallow, toxic, biggest problem that we have in society to cause people to think poorly. So it was hell, hell coming back to it. Um, the only way I could do it at the start, uh, Rob was, um, a basic habit forming here is let’s try and make it enjoyable. So I used to put my favorite music on. I put a timer on for 20 minutes, twice a day, one in my lunch break at work, one after work. So I’m not wasting my creative energy. It didn’t feel like I’m like you said, cause you could do it all day. And I have people who have done it all day and now they’re like, Oh my God, no one’s listening to me because I haven’t actually got anything of substance to talk about. So time blocking… favorite music. 

The big mistake people make on social media is like they’ve rehashed comments. So they say the same thing as the poster doesn’t do anyone any value. Um, and, or the other is you comment on big accounts because of their size, not because of their content and interesting people are not on boring posts. And the whole point in commenting on other people’s stuff is to go find more interesting people. And so my rules are, I don’t reply to anyone that I don’t like, no matter how popular they are. That made it a lot more fun because actually there are so many interesting people out there. And if you’re not judging by audience size, you begin to build quite a cool network. Uh, number two is kind of having a list of people. So if you’re trying to comment on a hundred people’s stuff, you’re like praying to form a relationship, but it’s kind of less is more. So if you have 10 people that you really enjoy talking to… I just use bookmarks. So I open bookmarks, 10 people appear, I comment on their top post. I move on. Less is more to build that bond. 

And again, I guess it comes with a bit of reps, but have fun in the comments. For some reason, people think that you have to comment like a robot, but most of my comments have just been having a laugh and, um, that’s helped a lot. to get in the foot of like quite bigger accounts because they’re like, Oh, this guy’s just, just joking around or, you know, letting your personality come through. So, because one thing I’m very fond of is that you think you’re just talking to one person, but everyone sees that comment. And so if you’re saying some cringe stuff or a lot of my friends use VAs for this, like I just started engaging on LinkedIn last week. I haven’t engaged on LinkedIn yet. I’ve just been posting from X and, uh, I started looking at the replies and I was like, wow. Uh, there are a lot of people using VAs or AI for this and you could smell it a million miles off. Um, I think personally having a little bit of time set aside each day when you, when you’re a little bit tired, but not exhausted. So you don’t suck it up a little bit. Uh, because once you do get that initial momentum, you don’t have to do it as much. Uh, for example, I took like four months off engaging. I was only doing two minutes a day, uh, when I was building my products and stuff. So, um, like I said, there’s a cost to it, but. The social media audience stuff is really, really powerful for a long-term game.

Kira Hug: How do you structure your days beyond spending some of the time, you know, the downtime on social media? How else do you structure your days?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I’m a big fan of building around your energy. And so. Uh, I wake up at like six in the morning. That’s a habit from, um, or about five, sorry, from trying to write before the nine to five. Uh, and then what I’ll do is I’ll, I love deep work sessions. So 90 minute blocks for writing. And I’ll do two 90 minute blocks in the morning with like a 20 minute walk in between. And during these sort of deep work sessions, um, I don’t go on social media. That’s a big one. Uh, the problem with being a social media entrepreneur is that you’re constantly connected. So I actually don’t go on social media for the first eight hours of my day. No social media, no emails, no client calls until three, 4 PM. So I’ll do, uh, the two work blocks in the morning, go train, have a bit of lunch, do another 90 minute work block, uh, have a little break and then do another 90 minute work block. And in these work blocks, the work is getting less creatively intense. So the first three hours would be your emails, your content, whatever, um, writing I need to do. And then the afternoons I do my lower leverage work. And like I said, I only quite strict about my time. So I only have, uh, no more than four client calls a month or cause in general. Um, uh, I think that’s usually about one call per week. And, um, I spend a lot of time walking and reading, uh, because I remember when I quit, uh, finally quit my nine to five and I was like, wow, you’re going to spend so long writing. You can only write for like four hours, right? Uh, good writing. And so I realized that a lot of it was actually trying to look after yourself outside of writing, because the better you think, the better you write. So I generally walk for 90 minutes a day. Uh, that’s the best time for ideas. And I like to read for about two, three hours a day as well. So. It sounds really boring, but I remember when I was a dentist, I was like, if I could drink tea, write and read books all day, like take me to heaven. That’s the goal.

Kira Hug: Yeah. That’s the dream for people who listen to this podcast. Yeah, for sure. Um, when you say client calls, can you be more specific? Like, are you talking about consulting calls? You’re working with four clients per month and consulting or something?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. Yeah. So a bit of a blend. So I actually only have one client for consulting now, which is just one call per month. Um, that’s just discussing his writing and a bit of his business strategy, mainly around leverage stuff. I think a lot of my friends, they sort of capped out about 20, 30 K a month. And I was always stuck at like the two K a month. And I mean, that leverage long-term play is like building the products, building the automations, the backend of convert kit, helping out with that. The other calls are at scale. So like I have my MRR, that’s a monthly call, um, where people come on Q and a and, uh, critiquing content. I mentioned before that, um, I really liked the service at scale and helping your audience on mass. And that’s something that I made quite early as a constraint. It was, can we do the most high leverage stuff? So the calls are generally group webinars, um, podcasts or another one. So, but, but otherwise. I sound like a diva, but you know, going from 40 patients a day to being able to have like no nothing in a day. Wow. And even if I have one call at 4 PM, it shouldn’t, but if I wake up in the morning and I know I have a free day, like it just feels great. So I just thought, well, why aren’t we just doing this? Even if it means you make less money in the short run, all that time, you can spend building product and stuff. Uh, it’s helping out now. So.

Rob Marsh: So I’m curious about your content creation process and how you think about that. A few weeks ago, we interviewed a woman on the podcast, Amanda Goetz, who creates a month’s worth of content in two days. And then, you know, she’s working on other stuff. And when I say content, I’m talking about her social media content. Then she’s working on course’s… that kind of stuff. What do you do to create your content? Are you creating it all up front and scheduling it to go live? Like walk us through that, how much time you spend on that and your thought processes. How far ahead are you, you know, as you’re thinking through, okay, what am I posting in April? You know, we’re recording this towards the beginning of March, but you know, how far out are you, you know, as you, as you start to create this stuff?

Kieran Drew: I’m a huge fan of batching. I think the hardest part about social media is feeling like you’re on a treadmill. And so I’m always at least a week ahead with my content. Now I’ll tell you what I’m doing, but it’s different from what I advise people starting out. But I’ll explain why I started the newsletter first. So the reason being that I think the problem with social media content is people are thinking quantity is the answer, right? Just volume, volume, volume, volume. And so they don’t put that much time into it. And the problem with that is chat GPT can now do that. And I think if we don’t know it now, I think in two years time, the people that are focused on quantity are going to have a lot of problems. 

So I like to do the newsletter first, because if I can spend, I just usually send one weekly newsletter, about 1500 words. But if I can spend 10 hours on that, I can get a full week’s worth of content. That’s really refined, really concise, and, you know, distribute that as social media content. And that takes an extra half an hour to turn it into the posts for the week ahead. Um, most people probably shouldn’t be spending 10 hours on a newsletter. And so if you’re just getting started on social media, so what I always say is like, let’s batch write the process. So for me, it’s always first drafts, Monday, second drafts, Tuesday, third drafts and scheduling on a Wednesday. Um, but I would just suggest people doing that with social media content, a couple of long form pieces and the short form there as well. You kind of, for me, I mean, I’ve got, I’ve probably got about 200 posts scheduled out already because what we also do is if anything performs well. My VA will actually schedule that again in four to six months time automatically. And she also sends it to me and says, Hey, you know, this post did well. And so I’ll quickly turn it into five more posts that removes a lot of mental friction. Instead of me going, what am I writing about? If so, if I see a post that says, Oh, this one on systems did well, I might write five different posts about what I like about systems, how I built my first systems, my commercial automations, and we’ll go schedule that out over a month or two. The reason why I say this is because, um, what happens now with my social media stuff is that I don’t have to, it’s just happening. It’s in terms of time, honestly, it’s probably about half an hour a week. And ironically in that week, I get more followers than I get in my entire first year. So it’s that compounding game.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. That’s crazy.

Kieran Drew: So it’s all like compounding, right? So it all kind of adds up slowly, but it’s that initial friction is horrible.

Rob Marsh: Another question related to this, what are the tools that you’re using as you schedule it that, you know, help you do this better?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, sure. So I’ll kind of run you through the funnel, I guess, and talk through the software if that helps. So I post on X and LinkedIn with hype theory. And we also screenshot that with a tweet, pick and put it on Instagram. And when I say we, all I do is write on a notion. So, um, originally when, when I, when I started, I was doing my writing on Google docs and I was replying to emails and Gmail and I was doing all like, it was, it was absolutely chaos. And so what I did was I built my full business on notion. So the only thing I use is notion and my VA and my girlfriend, they’re sort of trained to take everything away from that. So I write something on Notion. We use HypeFury to schedule that out. So my posts, I’m never writing live. My stuff is just ticking away in the background. When the post gets to like 200 likes, HypeFury will auto plug my newsletter landing page, usually with a lead magnet. So someone will sign up with ConvertKit. Beehive is another popular choice, particularly for beginners. I like ConvertKit because of the business side of things. With ConvertKit, they’ll get a nine day welcome sequence, pitching the product and just giving value and pointing towards my favorite podcast episodes.  I use Thrivecart for the product. If they do buy with Thrivecart, there’s two upsells, my old product, which is the swipe file. And then my MRR product, which is a bit more of like breaking down copywriting with content. If they purchase any of them. There’s 30 days of emails scheduled afterwards. Again, just providing value, checking in how are things? And so the bit that really excites me now is that a thirty second tweet is potentially 20, 30 hours of value plus  thousands of dollars in LTV. And that’s the one reason that we’re at 750 K when it’s just me and my girlfriend and VA doing a couple hours a week, because the robots are doing all the work. And I just think people don’t spend enough time on process. It’s so easy to get into that trap of busy work when what I did a long time ago was setting aside three hours a week for this stuff. And so I looked at everything I was doing and just kept asking,  can we automate, can we delegate, can we eliminate or can we systemize? And so everything has SOPs, everything has routine and  it’s just got rid of so much friction,  which I think is the big problem.

Kira Hug: So you’re kind of going more, you’re not going all in on X cause you’re on LinkedIn as well, but like, how do you, how do you pay attention to those platforms so that you can make smart decisions moving forward as algorithms change and just products change? Like, are you evaluating them on a regular basis to see if it’s worth sticking around?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I am actually. team not paying to the algorithms so much. Uh, I used to a lot. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of like outsourcing your happiness. Um, and you’re at the mercy of, of changes, right? These fluctuations and trends kind of come and go the algorithm ebbs and flows. And the one thing that doesn’t change is people. And so that’s why I’ve always been focused on good writing. So I’m actually. moving away from the whole social media is the main focus. Um, the way that I’m looking at it now is that the email is the product. If you can build a very good newsletter, have a system to redistribute it. Um, and then you have to have faith that quality shines through because it’s quite easy to get sucked into that chasing the algorithm game. And what happens is there’s a concept I’ve been thinking about, about incentive drags, where if you, if you’re constantly chasing the algorithm, Your ideas begin to sound like everyone else’s. So if you go on LinkedIn now, there’s like a million LinkedIn people, LinkedIn experts selling LinkedIn. That’s incentive track. And I actually, I looked at my, uh, my first blog posts from 2020 to do the whole meme of see how much your writing sucked. And it was a big kick in the teeth because I was like, your writing suck, but your ideas were really good. And I was looking at my social media content and I was like, This has gone wrong somewhere and it was because of the algorithm. And so I’ve actually stopped looking at that stuff. I think you just have to have faith over time. So there’s still, but the packaging is kind of second nature for me. You need a good hook. Um, but otherwise, yeah, I try not to pay attention to it.

Rob Marsh: So what else are you building? Uh, what’s, what’s coming next as you work on, you know, move away from, you know, the social media more into your email. Are you building additional products? You know, what, what are you working on?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, so we just finished launching high impact writing, but I really like over delivery. I just think it’s a lot of fun to do for people. So for the next month, I’m building out more stuff for the course. Uh, so I want to build a summary version, like a 40 minute version of the course, uh, maybe make it a podcast version, do loads of overshort of the writing sessions. I just want people to have this thing where when they pay me money, they’re like, holy shit, this is, this is the real deal. We then got the MRR, which at the moment, the churn isn’t too good. So it’s 21%. I’ve been too busy to try to address that. So I need to slow down and actually work out what, what I’m doing wrong there. After that may, um, I wanted to build what people have been screaming out for me in terms of my customers, which is the email version of the course. Uh, there’s just been a very good response about the way I like to write. Um, and I did again. I’ve taken so many email courses and it’s all pieced together. And like, I learned most of my stuff from copywriters, who are brilliant email storytellers, but a lot of entrepreneurs, especially social media stuff, they don’t do it that well. So I was thinking about building out high impact emails, which, you know, carry on the product repertoire once that’s done. And this is the bit I’m really excited for. I’m just obsessed with doing one thing. Well, and I think if I look back at the journey, it’s just been a series of trying to shake off the baggage. And so once we’ve got two products and an MRR, um, I just want to write the newsletter. I want to see what happens when you put 30 hours into a piece instead of 10. Uh, there’s a, there’s a brilliant post, um, on Michael, Michael Simmons called the blockbuster principle. I don’t know if you guys have seen it. Um, it’s a great read. It’s just, it’s, it’s this, I think for a prediction for the internet, there is a swelling sea of increasing noise and. Whilst the information is becoming infinite, attention has stayed the same, right? We’ve only got the same, however many hours you actually go on your phone. I think in three to five years, there’s going to be a big crisis of quality. And I want to make sure I’m on the right side of that. I want to be. Um, and so I just want to write my newsletter. I want to do 34 hours, 30, 40 hours, just on the newsletter and social media content, driving traffic to it. Uh, because. I would love to write books and stuff. And I think this will be the next step where it’s just trying to find your ideas. I don’t know what I’d write about, but it’s kind of hard to tell when you’re just writing about writing and marketing. I want to get into more of the philosophy side, the stuff that interested me in the first place.

Kira Hug: And when you say 10 hours, spending 10 hours on your newsletter and you want to increase it to 30 hours, can you just break that down real quick for me? Cause I think if I spend four or six hours, I’m like, that’s a lot of time. So what are you doing with 30 hours?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, well, I don’t know what I’ll do with 30 right now.

Kira Hug: Or let’s say the 10 hours specifically. Yeah.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. So 10 hours, um, for one, I like, I love editing. I’m not a great writer. Uh, I’m not probably a great editor, but it’s the other thing that I like, like trying to come up with really concise, entertaining ways to say it. Um, for me, one of my metrics or one of the reasons I want people to read, uh, is frameworks. So inside that sort of 10 hours, I’m trying to think of frameworks or cool ways to present ideas that they haven’t heard before. Um, because, you know, good content is like novelty. Right. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don’t really read any like trends or timely content, which is like a sin, uh, for the most part, but I figured, well, if you’re not doing that, can you start to frame timeless concepts in new ways? So I spent an hour or two sort of again, thinking about that, usually walking. And then the actual writing, drafting, redrafting process, and then turning it into social media content at the end. So I say 10 hours. It probably would be more like between six to 10. Uh, sometimes they go into like 2000 words. And, uh, one of my rulers is you have to delete 33%, one third rule. And that’s quite fun as well, because it really makes you kill your darlings. Um, so yeah, when it comes to 30 hours, I don’t know what that would look like. I think either it would be two emails per week for one. Or really well researched. Uh, because my, my big mistake, and I think a lot of people’s mistakes with this stuff is clarity. You, you think, you know, that the reader knows what you mean, but that curse of knowledge, that gap is, is a killer. Right. And I think spending more time on stuff would help you give more examples, more metaphors, more analogies, try to change how people think a bit more. So.

Rob Marsh: Kieran, you mentioned that you read three hours a day. This is kind of maybe a two or a three part question, but what do you spend your time reading? What are your two or three highest recommended books? And what are you reading today? Like, what is the book today?

Kieran Drew: OK. So what was the first part again?

Rob Marsh: So what, well, what kinds of books are you typically reading? You know, what, what are the categories?

Kieran Drew: So I split this into three. The only way I can read three hours a day is to treat it like TV. I flick through books quite a bit. So I tried to have one book, which is practical, which is usually business or copywriting or marketing. Once I start getting bored there, I move more into  the philosophy mindset sort of stuff. So I’ll go through the ones I’m reading in a moment. And then the third book is always my favorite. And that’s fantasy. I am a sucker for dragons and stuff. So I’ve been reading it since I was like six. It’s just very nostalgic for me.

So that’s how I finish my day. It’s like a three hour thing. It’s first book for an hour, second book, and then the third book at the end.

Top two or three books? For your audience, Breakthrough Advertising. Maybe not only if you’re a complete beginner, but my God, every time I read that book, I’m like, this is it. This is everything you need for writing, marketing, and creating content online. I find it very, very insightful. 

The book that probably changed my life the most, I should have a few. There’s one called The Almanack of Naval Ravakan. He’s the guy that is all about ideas. That’s all I’ve been doing. I listened to him every three months. I just do what he says. It works. I’m a huge fan of Charlie Munger.

Rob Marsh: I’ll break in to mention Naval’s book—it’s like $2 on Kindle. Everybody should own that book. Even if you’re only going to read three or four lines in it today, you almost come away with something every single time.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It’s, for me, it’s word for word, the most insights per book, per page. So that’s really good. Like I was saying,  Poor Charlie’s Almanack, a lot of almanacs, but that’s Charlie Munger’s book. I find that really insightful as well. And then you asked what I was reading at the moment. So I’m reading The Status Game by Will Store. So I’ve got that here. I find evolutionary psychology really interesting. I think if you could understand where we’ve come from, it makes a lot of stuff helpful. Now I’m reading Mastery by Robert Greene. Which again, I love Robert Greene. It just took me a year to finish The Laws of Human Nature. Like it’s just as big storytelling. And then I’m reading, for the second time, Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday. Strangely, the first time I read it, I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand the point about timeless content and building stuff that lasts forever. But now that I’ve spent two years building and building, it’s like play longer term games. And so I’m reading it and I’m highlighting everything.

Rob Marsh: Mastery and Perennial Seller are both among my favorites. I love both of those books. They’re fantastic. I agree. Perennial Seller, I actually shared this recently on LinkedIn, but this is one of those books that’s not about copywriting, that’s absolutely about copywriting, timeless content, and creating an offer that stands the test of time, which is what we’re all trying to do with copy.

Kieran Drew: It really is on point with me because I found a thread from James Clear. Obviously he writes about habits usually, but there was a thread in 2020, which was about his decade long business. One of his tweets, it was just two lines, and it was like: Only create timeless content. The runway is longer for success. And I was like, damn, the problem is that most people keep getting told you have to write about timely stuff, be on topic and be on trends and which works  in the instant, the first instance, but where are you in 10 years? And I think I would rather make less money or get less attention if it meant I was building a body of work that I’ve changed about two posts a week for three years. So I would love to do something like that, but you can’t play both games.

Kira Hug: Amazing. Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about in terms of the content I’m creating and thinking about creating. So thank you so much for giving us your time and sharing so openly with us. We really appreciate it.

Rob Marsh: If people have been listening, they’re like, I got to get into Kieran’s world… where do they go to find you on Twitter… or what you might be posting on LinkedIn… find your course… all the things.

Kieran Drew: Yeah, kierandrew.com. That’s where I’ve got my newsletter sign up and then you’ll find your way around or it’s Kieran Drew—that’s my LinkedIn as well, but definitely my Twitter (X). Primarily on X or my newsletter.

Rob Marsh: Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time.

That’s the end of our interview with Kieran Drew. If you’re like Kira and me, you’re probably buzzing with a bunch of ideas that you want to try out in your own business or on your social media. Lots of things that Kieran shared have me excited. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation, as I always do, so you’ve got a couple more things to think about as you apply these ideas in your own business. 

I want to revisit The Blockbuster Principle that Kieran mentioned. You can find an article on LinkedIn by Michael Simmons, where he outlines The Blockbuster Principle. We will link to that in the show notes, but it’s really built on the idea that Chris Anderson came up with maybe 15, 18 years ago. And that’s the long tail and the head. And the idea is that  towards the head, more people see that content and it’s more popular, makes more money, but that there’s this amazing long tail and people find the content that resonates with them as you move down the tail. And there’s an audience for all of that. And What Michael Simmons argues with the blockbuster principle is that that’s not really the case, that the head, this glut of the most popular, the biggest items, the things that people find is getting bigger and the tail is actually getting smaller. 

And when Kieran mentioned the information is trending to infinite, but attention is staying the same. What that means is if you’re not creating content that’s in the head, that’s some of the most popular that people are sharing and resonating with, nobody’s going to see it. It will get lost. And another part of the blockbuster principle is that it lasts. Kieran mentioned Perennial Seller, the book, which is really about the idea of creating content that lasts forever, whether that’s literature or music or whatever. But you need to be shooting for creating amazing content that lives in the head. And that is not easy to do.

Michael Simmons talks about a little bit how to do that in that article. And like I said, I will link to that in the show notes. So look for that. 

Kieran also mentioned that when we were talking about how he launched and was willing to leave a sure thing to move out of dentistry and into copywriting, he talked a little bit about fear being a motivator and how it keeps you trying. I love that Kieran set a realistic deadline for his business, he needed a result within two years. So 24 months out, if he keeps failing, maybe he goes back to dentistry, maybe he tries something different. And it literally took him 24 months to get to $10,000, which is a very long time, 13 months to make that very first dollar. Now, most people who may be listening to the podcast, maybe this is you… if we’re starting a copywriting business, most of us don’t have 13 months to make a single dollar. And we don’t have two years to get to the point where we’ve built a business that’s actually working for us. So sometimes it has to happen faster, or sometimes you have to hang on to that permanent job, that full-time job as you build on the side in order to create something that will work. Kieran obviously had this opportunity where he had some money saved and he could make it work. But if you are motivated by fear, that often gets you going and will help you find that success, maybe a little bit faster than Kieran did.

Another thing to keep in mind is Kieran is building products and wasn’t working with as many clients. And it’s often easier because you’re selling your service, you’re selling your time in a client facing business to find those clients more quickly, to get a decent pipeline running, whether you’re out there pitching, you’re starting to attract clients back to you, getting referrals… it generally can happen a lot faster than that 24 months that Kieran talked about. But if you’re building products, 24 months is not an unrealistic timeline. Even Kira and I, when we launched The Copywriter Club, it was six months before we launched our very first product and made any money. And before that, there was a lot of investment in time and energy and even money in the podcast and in the Facebook group and all of that stuff. And of course, that entire process is what builds confidence. As Kieran mentioned, you probably don’t start with that confidence, but it does grow as you build, as you try things, as you gain experience, you become more confident and able to deliver on whatever it is that you’re trying to create. 

Kieran also talked a little bit about building around your energy. He mentioned waking up early. I think he said six o’clock, doing two 90 minute blocks of writing time in the morning, two 90 minute blocks of writing time in the afternoon, using his morning for those high leverage activities and the afternoon for maybe more lower leverage activities. He’s doing deep work. And so he’s turning off social media for the first eight hours of his day. All of this is amazing.

This actually reminds me of our interview with Amanda Goetz a little while ago where she talked about her processes of getting things done, a very similar process. They’re similar, but they’re very different in how they’re spending their time and how they’re executing. And I guess really my point here isn’t: hey, you need to adopt Kieran’s process or you need to adopt Amanda’s process. It’s you need to adopt your process. You need to figure out what works for you. And I’ve said in the past, you know, I don’t find that my best writing happens early in the morning. and oftentimes it takes me a little bit of time to get up and running. Sometimes I hit that deep work or that flow state in the afternoon and I can keep going well into the evening. Whatever works for you, find the process and then block out time for it, make it work. 

So if you have to work around kids, then work around the kids, work at night, or if you’re working around a full-time job, then do that, but find the process that works for you so that you’re not reinventing your schedule every single week. And I think this is a challenge for many of us. 

Finally, just want to mention, it’s sort of a theme of a couple of the last few episodes… Kieran talked about rebuilding a version of his course and shaking off the baggage and creating new elements that are intended to wow his buyers and his customers so that he gets the reaction, “holy crap, this stuff is good, right?” This is all about engineering the client experience. We talked about this a bit last week and the week before with Jason Friedman went really deep on this. But again, engineering this customer experience, the client experience that we’re creating for the people that we work with is the kind of thing that pays off long-term with additional referrals, additional opportunities to work, attracting new clients to our business. So a little bit of a theme that I’m seeing over the last couple of episodes and maybe that’s a sign that I need to be working on my client experience Maybe you’re feeling the same thing. 

I want to thank Kieran Drew for joining us to chat about growing a social media presence, his newsletter, his business, and so much more. You can find Kieran on Twitter at It’s Kieran Drew. And that’s K-I-E-R-A-N-D-R-E-W. Or visit his website, kierandrew.com. 

 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. 

If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please leave us a review. Let us know what you think, or email us and tell us what you think, whether you’ve got an idea that you want to implement in your own business, or maybe you want to share this episode with somebody else that you know that it might help out. 

I feel like we’ve had some really good episodes lately, and a lot of them are worth sharing with other people. So if you feel inclined, please do that. Let others know that Copywriter Club podcast is out there. We’d love to hear from you. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.

 

 

You’ve heard the saying: slow and steady wins the race. Well, that’s exactly the approach our guest for the 389th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast built her business. Today we’re talking with copywriter Kim Kiel about getting better month and month, and year after year—and not getting caught up in the hustle. And we covered a lot more. You’ll want to tune in for this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

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The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: I love stories about copywriters and other freelancers who find amazing success right out of the gate. They’re working with great, high-paying clients on big assignments almost from day one. Those stories illustrate what’s possible to those of us who are just beginning the journey. But, those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Very few copywriters hit a home run on their first at bat, or even their second or third. For them, slow and steady wins the race.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and brand voice expert Kim Kiel. Kim’s business growth is the perfect example of the slow and steady copywriter business—getting a bit better every year by charging a bit more, upleveling clients as she gained experience and not getting caught up in the rush to hustle. We talked to Kim about that as well as her unicorn client, her take on the nine word email and why she always follows up every pitch.

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kim.

Kira Hug: All right, Kim, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Kim Kiel: Well, uh, I got us to tell you, I’m having kind of like a full circle moment because it was about five or six years ago that I was in my kitchen, you know, but bubbling around doing whatever I had to do and listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast and hearing Joel Kletcke, Tarzan Kay, early Justin Blackman talking about this field of copywriting and how they had some really good successes. And it was right around that time that I was needing to find another way to work because I had a day job. In the nonprofit sector, I worked in charity for a couple of decades as a fundraiser, fundraising copywriter, front line communications. And that sort of daily commute and the schedule with the kids, school schedules wasn’t working anymore. And so I needed to make a shift. And so I discovered the Copywriter Club at the same time as I kind of discovered this whole online world of business. The people I heard speaking on your podcast gave me a lot of hope and possibility. And for me to be sitting here now recording on this podcast, like I feel like I’ve made it, like I’m having my little Sally Field moment. So that’s sort of a very…

Rob Marsh: It’s really nice of you to say, and it’s just really gratifying to hear that. Like, you’re not the first person to say it. It makes us feel good. So thank you for saying that, even though you didn’t have to.

Kim Kiel: Well, it’s 100% true.

Rob Marsh: Okay, well, yeah, let’s talk about how you took that early desire and turned it into a functioning business.

Kim Kiel: Sure. So after I discovered this whole online world of business and I discovered the field of copywriting, which I had already been doing, but I didn’t know that’s what you called it. Then I decided to go all in on it and I quit my day job and my first client was actually that employer. So that was sort of how I made the shift from working a day job into becoming a freelancer and becoming self-employed. And as I opened up more time in my calendar, I leveraged some of my older relationships, they would hire me to do smaller projects. And then I joined some different communities. 

So I joined Copy School. I joined your community, The Copywriter Underground. I joined B-School. And in there, I found all these other online entrepreneurs who are doing stuff. And I both used them for inspiration, but also many of them became my clients. And so when I was in those other communities learning about online business, joining masterminds, those other women would actually hire me to write for them because I was one of the only copywriters in the group. But even though I had like a decade and a half of experience writing, I still had so much self doubt, still questioned whether I could actually do this thing called copywriting. So joining some of the copywriter programs really gave me the confidence that I needed and maybe a little badge to make me feel like, okay, yeah, I can do this. And made me feel more comfortable when people would come to me. I could speak confidently that I knew what I was talking about.

Kira Hug: Okay, so many questions for you. Let’s start with leveraging older relationships, which seems obvious, but that’s something I feel like is still untapped for many of us. I even feel like it’s untapped for me. I have a lot of relationships, and how often am I going back and leveraging or warming them up? What does that look like for you, and what does it look like today if it’s changed?

Kim Kiel: Yeah, so I still generally have a long follow-up game. In the beginning, it was sort of reaching out to my personal networks and saying, hey, I’m quitting my job. I’m becoming a copywriter. This is what a copywriter is, because nobody at that time knew what a copywriter was. AI has kind of changed that a bit. And as I reached out to those people, they would know people, and they’d be able to make referrals to me. I got a lot of referrals from people within the copywriting community who would throw me the odd contract, and even if I didn’t land it right away, I would still follow up a couple weeks later, a couple months later, even a year later, just kind of like a, hey, how’s it going? And that is something that I still do today with my past clients and with people who I’ve had sales calls like a year and a half ago, they will come back. And it’s that sort of constantly staying on their radar that I think has really helped me to get repeat business and to get additional referrals because as they are going about their business, they see your name pop up in the inbox and they know somebody in their community is looking for a copywriter. They will connect me to that person. So it’s that sort of gentle, hey, how’s it going, thinking about you, and it always seems to work out.

Rob Marsh: And like Kira said, I think this is really untapped for a lot of us. And so I kind of want to probe here just a little bit. As you were going out on your own, that first, your former employer that became your client, what did that conversation look like? And I’m almost asking you here for a script, because I’m thinking there have got to be other people listening who are thinking, well, I could turn my employer into my first client if I went out. So tell us. How did you approach your boss or whoever you needed to talk to and what did that conversation sound like?

Kim Kiel: Well, I guess I was pretty lucky because they didn’t want to lose me. I had to quit to accommodate my family’s needs at the time. And they said, how can we keep you? What can we do to keep you? And I was able to then create a smaller package or carved off a part of my job that I really liked and I knew I could do remotely. And I said, well, how about I just manage all the grants, the grant fundraising grants, as opposed to doing all of the other fundraising that I was doing at the time. And so by saying like, I can do this portion for you, and I’ll just slot right in, I’ll keep working on it. And it was attractive to them because A, they had already known me, they knew how well I worked, they knew I would be able to deliver. And so it was honestly an easy yes for them. If I were to do it again, I, I have made similar pitches to employers in the past, like say where I wanted to move and work remotely. This was pre-pandemic, like 10, 15 years ago. But it’s still coming to them with a solution fully mapped out and say, these are the things that I’m going to do for you. This is what it’s going to cost. I can work remotely. I can do this totally independent. And I’ll just keep this going for you. So I think it’s identifying a need and showing how you can just slot right into their team without it being more headache and more money for them.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I think that’s the key is the solution piece, like whether it’s a warm relationship or cold relationship, it’s like come to the table with a solution rather than just targeting the problem. You mentioned self-doubt, fear, you know, that’s something we can all relate to, and it creeps up at different times. Like for you, you had all this experience, but it still crept up because you were going into a new business. I think for copywriters, it can creep up at different stages in their business. So what else could help you, knowing, what else helped you or maybe even helps you now beyond the courses? Because I agree, like courses, education, getting that badge does matter, but what else has helped you?

Kim Kiel: Uh, it is, it’s a constant battle. I still like on the weekly have like, Oh my gosh, I should burn down my business. Nobody loves me. Oh, look at so-and-so their podcast has so many more downloads than I do. Look at, they’re getting all these accolades. And I’m like here, just like chugging along quietly in the background and filled with self-doubt. When I have those moments of self-doubt, I reach out to my, like my squad. Like I have some Voxer friends who I’m like, guys, I’m, I’m spiraling. I feel like crap and they’ll come in and they’ll be like, no, you’re good. You’re awesome. And it’s like just having that hype squad is so helpful. And then also having, you know, I’m part of some more intimate business masterminds and having a coach who’s able to see what you’ve accomplished over the last year and remind you Well, didn’t you just land that sales? Didn’t you just land that client? Didn’t that client have an amazing launch? Like they’re able to reflect back to me what I maybe can’t see for the moment. So it’s a constant practice, but I think it’s really having other people around you to help cheerlead you on and make you feel less alone. I think that’s a big part of it.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love that. That’s something that we’ve seen. Like you mentioned the underground earlier, we’ve seen that in our groups and our mastermind. And even sometimes just having Kira there to say, hey, yeah, that was actually pretty good or vice versa.

Kira Hug: I thought I brought you down. I didn’t think I brought you up.

Rob Marsh: You didn’t bring me up. It was interesting. We had a sales page that we used for a promotion a week or two ago, and somebody emailed saying, this is the best sales page ever written. Actually, they posted on LinkedIn. And Kira wrote it. I’m like, that kind of stuff is awesome. So maybe this is an opportunity to encourage everybody who’s listening to reach out to somebody who you admire, who you think is doing a great job, and just say, you’re fantastic, and you’re killing it. Because you’re right. I think a lot of us feel like we’re not killing it day to day. or even making it sometimes, and that can be hard.

Kim Kiel: Mm-hmm. And I’m pretty lucky. I have a very super tiny email list, but there’s a few people on there who are copywriters and pretty well-known copywriters. And they will often reach out and say, this was a great email. You know, yours are the only emails that I read. And I get a lot of emails. And so hearing that from people who I admire and highly respect is super gratifying. And I guess sometimes I just have to remind myself that, oh, yeah, I’m actually OK at this thing.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love those emails are amazing when they come in. Okay, so I want to also ask you, while we’re talking about this, you know, the hype squad, whatever, you mentioned that you often get referrals from copywriters, maybe it’s not often, but you do get these referrals. And there’s so much follow up. Let’s talk a little bit about that follow up game. Because again, this is another place where I think it’s really easy to get discouraged. Obviously, we don’t want to be spamming people who are not interested in our businesses and in getting help from us. But there is a lot of power in following up and being there at the right time. So let’s go a little deeper there too.

Kim Kiel: Sure. What really changed my perspective on follow-up was, I don’t even remember where I was or where she shared it, but Denise Duffield Thomas, the money coach, she shared one time that her team doesn’t even respond to pitches or to potential prospective clients unless they have followed up two or three times to show that they’re actually interested in working with them. And so when I heard her say that, you know, the bar for actually getting an interview with us is that you have to follow up two or three times, like that totally changed my perspective. It made me feel like, OK, well, I’m going to do that. And so often people will book a call with me. I’ll have that call. Maybe it won’t be a right fit at that time. Maybe they’ll decide to go with someone a little bit cheaper. And I will still, in about a month after that, send an email. Hey, I was just thinking about you. I’m looking at my calendar. Do you have any copywriting needs? If you do, give me a shout. It’s happened so often where people have chosen someone else and then months, even a year later, they’ll come to me and it’s just that sort of, it’s an inoffensive gentle nudge. It’s almost like I send that nine word email every so often just to kind of touch base and it’s a friendly hey, it’s not like a hard pitch. It’s just, I’m thinking about you. We had that sales call. Do you still need help? Did you get it all sorted out? It’s really coming from a place of service and it’s really served me in the long run. People who I’ve followed up with will come back to me a year, a year and a half, even two years, two years after that initial sales call.

Kira Hug: Yeah. And sometimes it’s still, it’s a long game. Yeah, very long. And it’s not a matter of them hiring someone else. Sometimes it is. Sometimes they decide not to hire anyone and just kind of sit with the problem longer. And then a year later, they’re like, OK, the problem’s worse. We need to work together. What else would you recommend? Knowing that, again, it’s been a rough year for many writers and many are struggling, not all are struggling, what has worked for you more recently that you would recommend to copywriters if they’re struggling just to get projects in the door and grow and they’re thinking about, I can’t do this, this isn’t working anymore?

Kim Kiel: Yeah, 2023 did a real number on me, just like it did for so many. I had huge financial goals for last year, and I didn’t even come close. My revenue dropped back to 2021 revenue levels, so it was tough. What I did find towards the end was offering really quick turnaround services. VIP days, power strategy sessions, small service, small bites, audits, things like that, that sort of helped people say yes to this small amount that could help them move the needle just a little bit, even if they weren’t able to invest in a larger project. But that quick turnaround, maybe sacrificing some of that research piece that we all love to do, but just trying to get in and create an instant shift. And that worked for new clients, but it also worked for going back to my repeat clients, so clients who I’d worked with in the past. I reached out, do you need your brand voice guide updated? How’s that email sequence working for you? Do you need any punch ups or additions to any of the copy projects that we’ve worked on in the past? And so I did get a few people coming back to me to update their brand voice guide, to redo a sequence and to hire me for a day and a half to do something. But those smaller bites seem to be more attractive.

Rob Marsh: And as you did that, is there something you’re doing differently in your pitch at all? You know, as you make that approach, are you having a conversation? Well, maybe you’re not ready for this bigger thing. Here’s something else to try. Or is it just you’ve just made the switch and your clients are none the wiser?

Kim Kiel: No, I think it’s still laying out. These are my top tier offers. And if that doesn’t work for you, here’s this quick hit. And everyone’s finances were a little bit tight last year, so that quick hit was nicer for their budgets as well. And the quick time frame was better for them as well. So they do know what my higher ticket offers are, but they would choose that lower level investment.

Rob Marsh: I love that you’re mentioning this because we’ve literally, I think, in the last two months probably had two or three other people say, hey, if you’re struggling, make it smaller, make it bite-sized, make it easier for a client to say yes. This isn’t really a question. I’m just sort of patting you on the back saying I feel like you’ve arrived at the same solution that so many other people who have figured this out have also arrived at.

Kim Kiel: And like, I’m so glad we’re having this conversation because it’s reminding me that that really worked towards the end of 2023. And so, uh, as we head into the slower seasons to maybe think about doing that again.

Kira Hug: Yeah. And I know we talked a little bit about, you know, self doubt and how that you’ve had your, your hype squad and that’s helped you, but how we are coming out of 2023 and I appreciate you sharing that it was a tough year for you. Um, Then how do you look at 2024? I know we’re already a quarter into it, but how do you plan ahead and think about the future and feel hopeful enough to get yourself focused and on track when you’re coming out of a tough year?

Kim Kiel: I do work with a coach, so I have somebody to bounce ideas off of, someone to reflect back to me what’s working. And in addition to my private one-on-one services that are sort of a more premium level, I also have a mid-tier offer, which is called the Joy of Copy Club, where business owners can come in and it’s sort of like a group copy coaching experience. And I’ve been having a hard time selling it. People are not wanting to join this group coaching program for whatever, maybe I’m not selling it right, whatever. But I’ve decided to then focus on what is selling. And right now what is selling is high ticket services. the people who held off on investing in 2023, whose launches tanked in 2023, they’re like, oh my gosh, we need to hire somebody to get this figured out for us. So I’ve had a number of people reach out to me and book me for their launches in early 2024. and I can see that that pattern is continuing. So I’m actually making a concerted effort to actually focus on my one-on-one services and get those booked out and sort of like let the copy club just sort of hang out in the background until I have more space to actually focus on filling that.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, as I listen to you talk about this stuff, Kim, it seems to me that you’re really good at the ebb and flow of business. You know, if this isn’t working, I’m going to try this. And before we started recording, in fact, the conversation that you and I had, you know, and we were saying, hey, you should come on the podcast to talk about this was really all about the slow and steady growth of a business. Oftentimes on the podcast, we talk to people who’ve had a pretty meteoric rise, you know, they made six figures in their first year, or, you know, they’ve, they’ve done something pretty amazing. And I think it’s also really important to hear that perspective of somebody who’s grown a little bit at a time a little bit more each year, and isn’t necessarily worried about huge gains or building a team, or so many of the other things that we often talk about, So with that ebb and flow, let’s talk just a little bit more about that slow growth model and how you’ve accomplished that almost year from year, how your business has changed and you’ve adapted things to make that work.

Kim Kiel: Sure. So I think because I came to online business and being self-employed and a freelancer, As a middle-aged person, like I was 42 when I started becoming a copywriter. I had a family, like my family was older but still young. I still had to, like that was my priority. So my business couldn’t, I couldn’t dedicate as much time to exponentially growing my business as maybe some other people who maybe are pre-kids might be able to. or on the other side of the spectrum whose kids are up and out who can then focus on exponentially growing their business or who have a spouse who looks after the whole household. I had that as a constraint in my life and my business so I had to sort of allow my business to support my family and still grow my business. 

I also would hear all the advice out there and then I would just take what I felt was meaningful to me and what I could do. So, you know, build a funnel, build a lead gen, do all this stuff. I didn’t want to do any of that. I didn’t want to set up a big text. I just set up my first funnel like three weeks ago. I have never had a full tech funnel set up. I run a very lean business with Google Docs, with a wave invoice. I’ve never had checkout pages before, so I just kept it very high touch, very simple, and not having those extra expenses for either a team or a tech stack to have to manage all that for me. I’ve had high profitability, but also it just makes it easier for me to then focus on just doing the work and not worrying about all these funnels and systems working for me. But I’ve just found different ways of keeping that engine going and chugging along and listening to the advice. and then deciding what fits with me and my lifestyle and my family. And fortunately, some things don’t work, but a lot of it has worked out. And I think one of the things that really helped me out over the last several years was I did have sort of a core retainer client. who I was able to work with for four years. And that was super helpful because it just provided that sort of steady, a baseline of steady revenue. 

And then I could add on these other clients and experiment with these other offers. I also think just having a little bit of life under my belt, I can come to these client conversations and sales calls and meet them as an equal. And it was never, I never have felt like, Oh, I’m subservient to the client or I’m lesser than the client. And I think the clients like that when you come to the sales calls, you show up on your kickoff calls with confidence and you know what you’re doing and they feel like they’re well taken care of. And I think that that’s been part of the reason why I’ve also been successful is because I know how to handle people and, uh, and yeah, just having some of that life experience goes a long way.

Kira Hug: So if you had a retainer for four years, that’s really impressive. It’s not easy to do that. Can you share what worked well, what you would encourage other writers to do if they’re setting up a retainer based off your experience?

Kim Kiel: I’ve experimented several times with different retainers, with different kinds of clients. And I mean, I’ve really had a unicorn client. She still is beautiful, but she doesn’t need that kind of service anymore. But she, from the get-go, was just someone who was beautiful to work with. She had me do a test project at the beginning. And I know that there are some people who shy away from wanting to do a test project. or give me a sample of your copywriting. But every time I’ve done it, it has resulted in tens of thousands of dollars. So I just want to say, don’t be afraid to do those test projects because they can turn into a really lucrative opportunity. And it also is a chance for me to try on that client. It works both ways. So with that particular client, we were able to really, over time, build out what that retainer would look like. I was writing Facebook ads for her. And so I would write sort of, it was almost like an accordion. 

Some months there’d be a lot of Facebook ads, sometimes there’d be less, but we had this mutual understanding that We would keep it at this rate to allow for that ebb and flow. With other clients, I have created a three to six month retainer engagement to focus on sales copy. Sometimes it crosses over into that almost an employee relationship where I need the sales page tomorrow. I need a stack of emails. And so I’ve had to learn from my own ways, like suck it up and just do it. But then going forward, being able to set some more strict boundaries around that. So now my retainers are quite clear. In terms of this is what I’m going to do for you on a monthly basis. And over the six months, we’ll work on these three large projects together. Large projects include X, Y and Z. And, you know, I’ll still throw in some bonuses here and there to surprise and delight the client and make them feel like they’re getting a really good value.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, so let’s talk a little bit about what those retainers look like. Because, you know, when we say, well, I’d like a three or six month retainer to do sales copy. How did you manage that, Evan Flo? Were you having meetings to talk about what was getting accomplished that month? Like, how was that all spelled out?

Kim Kiel: With the unicorn–amazing client, we worked pretty much in Slack. She would send me a creative brief, I would do it. Every few months we’d have a call, check in, how’s it going for you? Great. So she’s sort of the pinnacle. She ruined me for all other retainer clients. With my regular retainer clients, we have a monthly call to set the priority for the month. We agree. These are the projects that are coming up. These are the copy assets that we need. This is the timeline that we need. And from there, I would just sort of deliver that. Right now, my retainers, I have sort of two levels of retainer. One is four, four, four, four a month, just under 5,000. And it includes four nurture emails. It includes three major sales copy projects. over the course of the six months, which would be like a big launch. It would be optimizing or writing a sales page in a sales sequence. It might be doing a brand voice guide, or it might be rewriting their website. So it’s those big projects that we can condense into that six month. And then they get sort of a month to month, a few projects, like emails that we can write together. And then there’s a step down from that, which is still about 2,500 a month. And it’s four emails plus some, a mini, like a landing page or like a small, short email sequence. So something a little bit smaller.

Kira Hug: Okay. I love how you structured the six month one, because this is such a struggle. It’s just. how to think about the projects, and then the nurture, how it all works together. How do you hold your boundary with that, especially with launches? Because when you’re saying, OK, we do a launch project over the six months, I mean, that could be a $50,000 launch project really easily. So how do you manage that piece of it?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I make a lot of mistakes in terms of my own boundaries. Yes, I have, there are some late nights that I’m pulling to make sure the copy is done, but that repeatable revenue over the six months is so valuable to me and my peace of mind that I don’t mind. So, okay, May is gonna be really tough because this client is launching and this other client hired me to do something else. Like, oh no, I’m gonna have to put my head down at work, but I’m okay with that. I always feel like I have a choice and I always feel like I’m the one who got myself into this situation. And I just got to suck it up and do it and do it as best to the best of my ability. And then sort of going forward, I might say, well, that’s actually not scoped in or we already covered that. So there are some ways that if someone says, can you do this for me? I’ll say, yes. Would you like me to scope that into the retainer? I can send you a new invoice. So just kind of like. It’s more of I learn my lesson each time, and then just try to fix it going forward.

Kira Hug: And you’re probably a solid planner, right? You’re planning at the beginning of the six months, so you know when the launches and all those events are taking place, and there are no surprises. It’s all built and baked in. So you can manage your calendar, for the most part. I hear what you’re saying, like mistakes happen. And I appreciate you being honest about that. But I’m just thinking to control the calendar, you probably need that ahead of time.

Kim Kiel: I mean, I think the way I’ve structured the retainers now is because I’ve been in retainer relationships before where it was like, oh, I just decided to launch this new mini offer. I’m going to need a sales page and 12 emails. And it’s like, I didn’t have the structure around that or the ability to have the conversation at the time. So now I just have more clear boundaries as I go forward. And yes, those boundaries are going to be wishy-washy at times.

Rob Marsh: So Kim, one of the things that you mentioned as you were talking about the retainers and setting up your business is that you like to keep things high touch. And you won’t have heard this interview yet, but many of the listeners will have heard our interview with Jason Friedman, where we talked about customer experience and building a customer experience. So I’m curious what high touch means to you. Because when you say, well, I was keeping it simple, Wave Invoice and Google Docs, Somebody might argue, well, that’s not all that high touch. So clearly, there’s some personal communication or something else that’s going on here where you’re having a high touch experience. Tell us what exactly you do to make sure that those clients are thrilled with the work you do.

Kim Kiel: I think it starts from that sales call and how you show up on the sales call and how you follow up after that. So when I show up on the sales call, I spend a lot of time listening. I feed back to them what I’ve heard to make sure we’re on the same page. And then after the call a day, maybe two days, sometimes even three, like I’m not like super on it all the time, I’ll send it’s a simple Google Doc with a table that says these are the deliverables. This is the cost. This is the timeline. This is what we talked about. Do you want to move forward? And it’s often like, yep. No proposal, it’s because we’ve had that conversation. If there is further questioning or questions, then they’ll just email me back or we’ll hop on a second call to clarify that. 

In terms of how else I provide that high touch is for premium clients, they get my Voxer, they get my cell phone number, they can text me and message me anytime they want. Very few of them ever do. Because they’re at that high level of operating their businesses, they don’t actually reach out as much as you might think. And even if they did, I would wait 24 hours to respond in some cases, you know, like I just set my own boundaries for when I reply. If they do have a need where they’re like, oh my gosh, something came up, I know you need 48 hours to turn something around, can you get this done? I’ll often say yes, just because I want them to feel well supported in that experience. And then, you know, from time to time, I’ll send gifts. I’ll send little care packages, things to make them feel special and to show my appreciation. I’m not sure if I fully answered that for you, Rob, in terms of that high touch.

Rob Marsh: No, you did. In fact, I know as soon as you said, I give my cell phone number, allow them to text, vox me anytime, I’m guessing a bunch of people listening just went, oh my gosh, she’s crazy. But it also occurs to me that in doing that, you are creating a level of confidence with that particular client where, okay, I know she’s there for me. And like you said, they hardly ever take advantage of it. But that trust, that level of support that you add on, I think, That’s over and above what most copywriters would do, probably more than I would do. I’m not sure that I want my clients texting me anytime that they might feel the need. But on the other hand, I do want them to feel like they could and get that support. So I think I really like that, even though I sort of have mixed feelings about that whole idea.

Kim Kiel: And it’s very rare that anyone ever really texts me. Sometimes they’ll give me a voice note on WhatsApp or they’ll definitely voice note me on Voxer. But I really love hearing their voice and hearing the questions they ask because that is how I can write like them. because when they’re talking, then I can write like them, or they’ll say, I had this idea for a thing and blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s just easier for them to get it out on Voxer or WhatsApp than for, let’s hop on a meeting. Let’s talk about what we can write about in our emails this month. Like, just tell me some stories that happened to you, and then I’ll turn that into a series of emails. So I like providing it. The only times people have ever called me is if, like, they’re going to miss a meeting. Like, it’s really just as a courtesy.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, it’s a good way to avoid conflict, too, right? Where you don’t have a client sitting there fuming over some issue. They’re more likely to just text you or send you a voice memo if there’s something, so you’re aware of that. I probably won’t give out my phone number because I have a flip phone, and I just don’t. Texting is really hard. Like, it just is very physically hard to text on it. But I like it conceptually. Let’s talk about launching, because that’s your specialty, one of your many specialties. I also love that space. And I’m wondering what you’ve seen work recently. What isn’t working now with your clients and their launches? What is working? Any observations you’ve made over the last six months or so?

Kim Kiel: I think we can all agree that people are taking a lot longer to make decisions and that sort of five day challenge and into a high pit high ticket $2,000 sale isn’t working so well anymore. People are maybe coming into that and then maybe they’ll buy on the next round or the round after that. Uh, so allowing for a longer cart where someone can experience you a little bit more. Um, I took Brenda McGowan’s pre-launch plan program. training. And I mean, that was probably one of the best investments I made in my business last year, because it gave me so much structure into that six-week content before you get into the launch. And I have used it with a couple of clients. And they were seeing sales before their cart even opened which they hadn’t seen before. So last year they had really difficult sales and this year when we added in a pre-launch and we updated some of the sales emails, they did see a lift in their revenue and their sales. So I think that being more strategic with that pre-launch process, like hat tip to Brenna for owning that space. But I took the training from her, so now I can do it too, which I guess is another tip for any copywriter who’s listening is get certification and training in other areas that you can niche into because it is an additional service that I can add on. It’s a new product that I can serve, provide. So that longer window, what I know from other people in the launch space is that more of that personal touch. So as we’re talking about this high touch, even people who are launching are using either ManyChat or even Video Ask. They’re actually getting into people’s inboxes, onto their phones, into their DMs. That coach or the team is making that personal outreach. while the cart is open. So just adding an additional layer of touch to invite somebody in.

Rob Marsh: So I’m curious, with adding on services like a pre-launch plan, are you pitching that to clients? Or is that part of the discussion when a client comes to you and says, OK, I’m ready to do a launch? Is that when you lay this out and say, OK, the pre-launch is going to take us three to six weeks. It’s going to be x thousands of dollars. And then we’re going to set up all of the launch material. How does that discussion work? And I guess the reason I’m asking this is I’m wondering how much you’re using a consultant role here, where the client comes and says, hey, I need a sales page for this thing. And you say, hold on a second. Let’s back this up and make it work, which is really two different approaches to what we do.

Kim Kiel: With the client who I most recently worked with, it was very much, we need someone to rewrite our sales page and rewrite our sales emails because the emails are not converting, it’s crickets over here. And when I got in and I looked at that, I said, I see a big gap here in terms of your pre-launch strategy. We were so late in the game. They just reached out to me too late for me to actually do the plan and write the content for them. But I was able to basically sell them the plan and say, I’ll write the plan, but you’re just going to have to implement it on the fly. And they bought that add-on, basically. It was, hey, I see this as a gap. So it is more, you’re hiring me for a service, but I see a strategic gap, and I’m going to offer that to you. With this particular service, the pre-launch plan or like brand voice guides, I’ve been able to go back to past clients and say, hey, this is a new service I offer. It’s a brand voice guide. If you’re becoming a bottleneck in your business, I can help create the structure for you so that you can pass on that copy to your team, your outsourced copywriters. And because a lot of people have worked with me before, they know I am attuned to their voice, so they will say yes to that.

Kira Hug: How are you marketing yourself and how are you showing up? Like I know we’ve talked a little bit about networking and you have a really great referral network and community, but what else, if you are doing anything else to build visibility and authority?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I’m like the cobbler’s kid. I’m the worst. I feel like I’m the worst marketer in the world. I have the tiniest email list. I never had a funnel until a few weeks ago. Like, But I did launch a podcast about a year and a half ago, and it still has very small listenership, but the people who listen to it reply back to me and say, this is amazing. This is filling a gap. It’s very short form, bite-sized. It’s like one copywriting formula, one sales formula, one writing prompt, or sort of one theme. It’s really following the rule of one. Uh, and, uh, it’s a short form podcast that both copywriters and business owners are loving. Uh, but I really have two different audiences. So I have the sort of six to six figure $250,000 entrepreneur who wants to join the copy club or need some smaller ticket services. And then I have this seven, eight figure launcher who they aren’t listening. They aren’t consuming my content. Let’s be real. They’re not on my email list. They’re coming to me through referrals. But when they get the referral, I know they’re coming and checking out my website. I know they’re looking at my Instagram. I know that they’re going to probably go over to the podcast and take a peek. So I have active things there. Aside from the podcast, I really don’t create content or build my authority in any other way. I do host monthly marketing moments. So instead of having this complicated event, I just sort of have open office hours, or I’ll talk about how to write a welcome sequence. And I’ll throw open the doors to anyone who wants to come. And I’ll get copywriters. I’ll get business owners. And they come and hang out with me for two hours. Maybe I’ll make a pitch to join a program or share my services in the hopes that eventually when they’re ready, they’ll come to me or they’ll refer me.

Rob Marsh: Your podcast is called the Ill Communication Podcast. Is that right? Yeah, it’s called Ill Communicate. Tell us about the name. Why Ill?

Kim Kiel: I am a diehard Beastie Boys fan and one of their best albums is called Ill Communication and some of their songs reference it. So I like my original email like way back in the day was beastiegirlk at yahoo.com. So when I had the idea for a podcast I was like, it has to be called the Ill Communication Podcast. So like you can become the illest, the best, the raddest communicator when you listen to this podcast.

Rob Marsh: Okay. So why didn’t you lead off with Beastie Girl K? That should have been the introduction of the podcast.

Kim Kiel: I have to, I have to update my intros anyway, so maybe I’ll do that for the next one.

Rob Marsh: I think it’s hilarious.

Kira Hug: So, You know, listening to you in this conversation, you’re so intentional about what you’re doing. Like Rob said, you know, kind of how to zig and zag through business. And I just love the way that you approach growth and the craft. And I’m wondering like what you do to kind of cultivate the CEO mindset that you clearly have. And beyond coaching, you mentioned that. I think obviously we’re big believers in mentorship. But what else do you do? Is it like a weekly check-in, CEO check-in, something else?

Kim Kiel: I have an assistant who supports me in my business. She is another mom at the school, like I met her when my oldest kid was in kindergarten. We met in the hallway and she sort of started her online business at the same time that I did. And she would tell you I do not have a CEO mindset. Let’s bring her into this conversation. I know, right? I have a Trello board. I kind of follow it. She really keeps me on task in terms of like, these are the leads. These are who we’ve got to follow up, but have you followed up with that person? So she really helps me in that regard. I really try to stay in my zone of genius, which is like actually writing copy. And in terms of the outreach, I just know that I have to do it. And I know that it doesn’t have to be hard. It can just, just the other day, I Slack messaged a past client. I had delivered all of her copy by the end of the year. I messaged her saying, Hey, your launch looked like it went really well. Um, following up on the voice guide. Do you need any edits? How’s the website doing? And she wrote back. She’s like, I need to call with you. She booked a call the next morning. We hopped on a call and she bought an audit for $1,200. So like just that little reach out a friendly reach out. 

It doesn’t have to be so complicated and hard. I also know that when I focus on something like if I’m hosting a monthly marketing moment or next week I’m hosting a boot camp on writing your welcome sequence, I’m putting so much effort into that and I’m showing up on social and I’m creating content about it. and I know that the money isn’t going to come from that event. Someone else from left field is going to come and book a call and they’re going to hire me for a bigger package. So I just know that it doesn’t matter where I’m focusing my reach out efforts, just the fact that I’m in motion will attract that new client and I have to just be okay with the fact that even though I’m investing so much time and money into this dang bootcamp, someone’s going to come in from some other way, and I’m kind of okay with that. So I just really have a lot of faith that the universe is going to meet me where I am, but it is a constant everyday practice for me to stay in that positive mindset. And I do go down in the dumps, but that’s where my assistant or my squad will be like, hey, you’re actually doing okay. You’re surviving. You didn’t shut down your business like those other copywriters did. I think just sort of that trust and faith goes a long way.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I love that thinking. It feels a little woo, which I’m sure Rob loves as far as putting out energy here will help me receive in a different way. But like, I know it works. I know if I keep showing up and building momentum that I will be able to receive in other ways in my business rather than just freezing and not doing anything because this activity isn’t working over here. And I love that you said that because I think that’s a big part of business is just like keep trying, keep moving, keep just iterating and getting stuff done.

Kim Kiel: I know inside The Copywriter Underground right now, you’re doing the 25 hard, which I think is awesome. I love seeing the posts people are making in there. But I just know that like that kind of action, people are going to be pitching to those five people a week or whatever it is. And it might not be any of those five people who reach out or who close, it’ll be someone else, like It happened when I was a fundraiser. I’d be going and having conversations with major donors. I’d be writing grant applications for this, that and the other thing. And then a big donor would come out of left field. And it’s just knowing that it’s going to happen, but you can’t just sit back and be passive about it. You have to actually be in motion, take action and take smart action, too. Like, yes, you will get some people will buy tickets to the boot camp, but the big money is not going to come from there.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I mean, that echoes something I’ve been saying to copywriters for the last few months about how do you, how do you share, why you need to be sharing what you’re doing all the time because it does, it ripples out and it’s not always from your inner circle. Related to this, you have mentioned probably, well, if I went back and counted, it’s probably six or seven times, maybe it was more than that, but you’ve mentioned referrals at least that many times. Obviously, referrals are really important to your business. Part of getting referrals is doing great work and providing that high touch, but is there anything else that you do to encourage clients to give you referrals or you just let it happen organically?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I’ve tried reaching out and when I was in copy school, I think Jo had, or whatever it was called back in the day, she had like a template for how to ask for referrals. And I tried that template a few times and honestly, it never resulted in anything for me. Um, so I’m less focused on reminding clients to make referrals for me. And it’s more just about, Hey, thinking about you, how’s it going? Because they’re in communities with other people who need great copywriters. And so they talk to each other. And it’s those referral conversations. Those people are pre-sold by the time they get on the call with me. Like those are the easiest sales calls that I have is when someone’s on and they’re like, yeah, how much does it cost? Okay. Yeah. What are you going to do? Okay, great. I’m going to go talk to the CEO and then we’ll, we’ll sign off on this. And there. They’re pre-sold, so I love referrals. 

And when people make a referral for me, I send a beautiful gift. Sometimes I’ve sent a referral fee. I follow up. Even when someone makes a referral for me and it doesn’t land, I follow up and I say, oh, that one didn’t land. It wasn’t a great fit, but I really appreciated that you made that offer. Do you know anyone else who might need this new pre-launch service that I’m offering, where I’m now offering brand voice guides? It’s just being in the orbit as opposed to being really strategic. I think that’s kind of the answer to your question, a long-winded way to answer it.

Kira Hug: As we start to wrap up, I want to hear about what’s next for you as you’re thinking about the future of, well, I mean, in the way in parallel, like the future of copywriting and marketing alongside the future of your business and how you see the two

Kim Kiel: One of the things I’m really passionate about is helping women find their voices and helping women have confidence to ask for the sale. In writing or on a sales call, but mostly in writing because that’s my medium. So through the podcast, I really want to have a huge impact. And through the Joy of Copy Club, I know I can help a lot of women business owners find that voice, develop the momentum. Like writing sales copy isn’t that hard. when you know the frameworks and the formulas and the process and for someone who is running a very small boutique consultancy maybe can’t hire a high-end copywriter like you can do it yourself and so I really would love to see my platform expand so that I can serve more of that that group of entrepreneurs who’s kind of not at that seven figure level, not at the newbie level, but like in this middle ground where you have so much expertise, but you just don’t know how to share it in a way that’s going to connect and compel and get the sale. And so for me, I’m very impact driven. So that’s really where I would love to see my business go is expanding that impact and reach. I still see myself delivering one-on-one services, but I also choose those clients because they’re working with the same audience as me. So they’re serving women to help them improve their lives, to gain more authority, to get more wealth into their lives. So it’s really an impact play, and yes, I like money too.

Rob Marsh: This is probably related to that question, but what advice would you have for anybody who’s listening who would like to take a similar path, slow growth, consistent growth over time, not worrying too much about, you know, hitting six figures that first year, whatever that looks like, or maybe this is even advice to a younger you, you know, what would you do a little bit differently to make it work?

Kim Kiel: I mean, the only thing I would do differently was I would have started sooner. I would have not looked at online business for two or three years before I actually pulled the trigger. I would have left sooner. And I think if you do great work, if you are a great human and you do great work and you deliver on time, that that already puts you ahead of the game. Delivering quality work on time is such a low bar, but it seems to be a low bar. And if you can do that, you’re already ahead of the game. And I just really think it is slow and steady. It is just put your foot forward. Some people like to sprint, but I’m not a sprinter. I just want to take a step forward, watch a little Netflix, take another step forward, do a little reach out. Yes, I could grow faster. Potentially, I could grow faster, but at what cost? We’ve seen so many people Like downsize their teams in the last year, the last two years, huge coaches have like completely shut down their business, because they’ve probably scaled too much built too much team can’t handle the stress as they balance those family obligations. And so I really think that. Just being slow and steady and having a small business is fabulous and and is great and just to trust that you know what’s best for you and to stop outsourcing that thinking to other people who are telling you to do it a certain way and to just find your own way forward.

Kira Hug: Well this has been really inspiring and motivating and there’s been so many practical tips that we can use and apply in our businesses today so Thank you so much, Kim. And I hope that you’re speaking on many other podcasts and sharing all your wisdom with other audiences, because this is great. Thank you. Where should our listeners go if they want to connect with you?

Kim Kiel: Sure. So I am kind of active on Instagram. That handle is kim underscore keel underscore copy. You can obviously listen to my podcast, Ill Communication. You’ll find it on all the platforms. And the central clearinghouse for everything is kimkeel.com.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Thanks, Kim.

Kira Hug: Thank you.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Kim Kiel. I want to add just a couple of thoughts, as I usually do, to our conversation so you’ve got a little bit more to think about as you listen back and think about how am I going to take some of the ideas from this episode and make them work in my business. 

Kim talked a little bit about the high touch experience. I want to make sure that I underline this because we did mention in the interview, Jason Friedman, our interview with him, which I believe was the last episode. You want to definitely go back and listen to that because we talked about creating the client experience from A to Z and what’s really involved in that. But Kim’s approach is really good. Again, it doesn’t make people jump through hoops. It’s not really expansive, but she focuses on listening, reflecting back what she hears from her clients. making sure that she’s communicating effectively. She wants them to feel like they’ve got premium access to her. So she gives them her Voxer or her text number and invites them to contact her anytime. That kind of connection creates confidence in a client. They know that they’re going to be supportive. They know they can reach out and while they probably won’t, there is some risk that they will, but they probably won’t. And so what you’re really doing is building trust and confidence in you as a copywriter, if you’re doing those kinds of things. And of course, adding gifts or care packages along the way, especially as you wrap up a project, a thank you note, thank you card, a gift, those things all create a higher touch experience than what a lot of copywriters do, which is just hitting send on a Google Doc and letting the clients try to figure out what’s going on, maybe even implementing on their own without any help or follow-up. 

We also touched a bit about the long follow-up game that Kim plays. One touch isn’t enough. We’re building a relationship here when we’re talking about following up with clients on client pitches or even your podcasts or things that you want to do. You need to treat it a little bit more like dating. Now, of course, you don’t want to be creepy, but you also don’t want to give up unless the person that you’re reaching out to has told you to stop, told you that they’re not interested or that they don’t have any availability right now. Follow up three, four, five times at least, and maybe even longer. And of course, if somebody said, I don’t have time right now, that doesn’t mean that they don’t want to work with you at some point in the future. So if you get that feedback, set a reminder in your calendar to follow up in say 60 days or 90 days when they might be more interested or they might be ready with a project, but make sure that you’re following up. That’s the difference between success and failure when it comes to pitching clients. It’s all in the followup. 

Finally, I just want to mention in the very beginning, Kim mentioned that her very first client was her previous employer. If you are a copywriter who is thinking about going out on your own and you have a job today, this is a great place to start. Talk about this opportunity that you have to go out on your own with your boss. See if they would be supportive. See if there is work that you can do for them on a freelance basis. Oftentimes that saves the company money because they’re not paying benefits. There’s the expenses of office and computer, that kind of thing. Obviously you’re taking on those expenses. So you gotta be careful that you don’t make under bill and make sure that you’re paying for those things on your own, but it’s often more affordable for clients to be able to work with freelancers than with full time employees. And so if you are in a situation where you’re employed, but you want to go out on your own talk, to your boss or maybe their boss and see if this is even something that they would consider because we’ve talked about a bunch of copywriters on the podcast who have done this very thing and it becomes that anchor client that allows them to set up and run their business for the first few months, maybe even a year or two, and then you’re off to the races. 

Okay, I want to thank Kim Kiel for joining us to chat about her business and the slow and steady growth that she’s experienced over the past few years. Make sure you check Kim out on Instagram or on her website, kimkeel.com. And also don’t miss her podcast. We mentioned this during the interview. It’s called ill communications. And on that podcast, she shares bite-sized tips about writing and marketing and all kinds of things. It’s worth subscribing. So check her out there.

 

What does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to “get in the game’ so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman
4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Eddie’s website

Full Transcript:

Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. 

But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie.

Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that’s what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that’s It’s really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn’t really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn’t know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn’t know they were called copywriters. So this goes to show how little I knew about this discipline in this profession before getting into it. 

But I looked it up and I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll try that. And I went in and I think I got the job just on the back of my English degree, because It was a brand new department. They were writing job ads. It was a contract role. I wasn’t getting any health insurance. I was making $15 an hour. So it was one of those. And I took the job just because I was like, hey, I can make a living writing. And quickly learned that my worth in that role was based on how many times I can get people to click and how many times I can get people to take an action. And so independently, just kind of doing my research, realized that I was doing something called direct response copywriting. And then I kind of went down the rabbit hole. I got really interested in that profession and that discipline and started consuming as much as I could about it. I started just reading books and watching seminars, listening to podcasts, reading articles. Yeah, whenever I would come into an insight, whenever I would hear a principle or a technique that was really compelling to me, I would try to write about it. And that turned into a very good copy eventually, my blog and my newsletter. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed from there. So I think that that’s how I got into copywriting was kind of a slow burn.

Rob Marsh: Do you have a novel in your desk drawer that you’ve been working on in the background, Eddie?

Eddie Shleyner: Thanks for asking, man. It’s not a novel. It’s an anthology of my work, but yeah, there is something that I’ve been working on, if that’s what you’re getting at.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll wait for that to hit the bestseller list so we can talk about it then. In the meantime, you know, as you were studying, as you’re learning, obviously podcast books, whatever, what were like the main sources that you used or that you were there were your go tos that you were pulling this stuff from? I’m asking mostly because I know there are beginners who are listening to the podcast and may want to replicate that, learn and write about these insights and learning ideas. Where’d you go?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, the first book I picked up was by Joe Sugarman. It’s called The Adweek Copywriting Handbook. And I really wore it out. I mean, it was so overwhelming in its completeness. I just felt like it covered so much. And what was really interesting about that book was when I picked it up and I started reading it, being a literature major and studying English all those years and reading the classics. And I started reading and I was like, man, this sounds like it’s like reading air. You know, it was like it was so simple and so plain. I was almost unimpressed at first. I was like, well, you know, is this really the resource that I should be reading? Is this really where I should be gathering information? Because it seems so trite at first, because it was so simple. But I think that was just the first couple pages, and then I realized that this was really just a treasure trove of information about direct response copywriting. And not just that, but it was something to emulate. 

It was a writing style that I needed to emulate, and I referred back to it time and time again and copyworked it time and time again so that I can get that so I could get it into me, you know, the type of writing, the tone that he was using and the word choice and just the sentence structure and the simplicity in general. I really wanted to write that way and not the way that I was writing in college. You know, I had an editor that was like, “you write like a fire hose, I need you to write like a nail gun.” And that was Joe Sugarman. Joe Sugarman was so intentional about every word that he used. He was even intentional down to the punctuation marks. He wouldn’t use unnecessary commas. He was always trying to save space on the page, make it as simple as possible. And so, yeah, I took a lot away from that, both in the principles and techniques of direct response, but also just in the style and how those guys wrote.

Kira Hug: So you shared your lessons. It sounds like you were learning and writing and sharing. Yeah. What was the reason for that initially? I mean, we can look back now and say, that was really smart, because now you’ve developed this entire resource and website, and you’ve grown since then. But what was your initial thinking with that?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, my initial thinking, I think, was that, you know, I missed writing. This was coming off of an entire writing and literature education, so I missed just the act of sitting down and composing vignettes and these little stories, which is something that I did pretty regularly, I think, in college. And so I think I missed it a lot, and I wanted to have an outlet for that. I wanted to exercise that a little bit. Also, I just thought, hey, if I can write about this clearly and concisely, if I can make it engaging, if I had control of this concept on the page, then that meant that I was ready to use it in my own promotions and my own ads. I think that was probably the driving force. They say millennials want to document everything in their lives. Maybe I just wanted to have some way of documenting all of this effort that I was putting in. I don’t know. It’s a good question. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly why I chose to do that, but somewhere in the intersection of those three things is the answer, I think.

Rob Marsh: When you weren’t only documenting what you were learning, you know, as part of your blog, you started interviews with other copywriters. Yeah. And there’s some really good copywriters that you interviewed for that. Yes. I’m not necessarily putting myself in that category, even though I was part of that, that series. But I am curious, were there lessons that you learned from them as you did those interviews and post those on your website that you look back and think, oh, yeah, that was brilliant. Anything that you can call out from what was shared there?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. You were actually, Rob, I think you were the third person I interviewed. I was very gracious of you because, you know, you didn’t have to do that.

Rob Marsh: Well, things really got good after the first three or four people, I think.

Eddie Shleyner: I don’t know. You were great. But to answer your question, themes that emerged were probably more than anything that just the fact that we are so similar. We are also so alike as copywriters and you know as people doing creative work for a living. I was really surprised by a lot of things that people wrote in that? It’s the same six questions over and over again, and the first question is: do you have a routine you have a way of working and this wasn’t like across the board, but so many people talked about how focus was really the key to doing good work and their production in general. Just being able to have blocks of time where they sat down and they were uninterrupted and they could focus on the problem at hand. I took that to heart back then. I think it’s a lot harder after you have kids. You have to be a lot more regimented with your time and just plan everything out to a T. But I think thematically, that was one of the things that really stood out across the board.

Kira Hug: Going back to your storyline, can you share a little bit more about once you realize you’re a copywriter, you have this job, and then you go deep into learning mode, what happens after that? What are the next few steps?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh, you mean like in my career progression? Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I actually worked at CareerBuilder which is where I was writing those job ads for about a year and a half. And so those are like three month contracts. So they just, you know, they extended those contracts probably five or six times. So I worked there for a year and a half and then afterwards I got a job at an agency. And it was, it was an SEO agency. We created SEO websites, but a lot of that work was very much rooted in direct response as well. You know, we needed to capture people’s attention when they got onto the site and convert them as well. So everything on that site was just pointing towards the fill in lead form. And a lot of our clients were, you know, kind of, you know, hand to mouth with their leads. So, you know, dentists, trucking companies, moving companies, that sort of thing. So I worked there for a little while and I continued to build out the blog and build out—I don’t even know if it was a newsletter at that point. 

For a while, it was just like a running list of like 50 or 60 of these little essays that I wrote in a Google Doc. I was never going to show them to anybody. They were just there just for me. I just thought, hey, I’m making this repository for myself. So I worked there for a little while. I think I worked there for about three years. And then after that, I got a job in-house at a software company. And that’s where I got a lot of SaaS experience, or at least my first SaaS experience. And then after that, I went and worked really briefly at a content marketing agency. It was called Animals. And then after that, I went to G2.com, which is kind of like Yelp, but for B2B businesses. And I was the copy chief there until November 2020, something like that. And that’s when I went out on my own with their copy. So that was the progression.

Rob Marsh: You mentioned you started out in that sales job that you didn’t necessarily love all that much, and yet you basically became a salesperson for all of these roles that you did. Did you learn anything in that first job that you carry through all of these things? Obviously, there’s a theme here anyway of you learning and picking insights and growing as you move from place to place, anything stand out specifically about sales?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh yeah, of course. I was in sales before this job after college. I did door-to-door sales for a little bit. I think at the end of the day, whether you’re selling one-on-one to somebody or whether you’re selling one-to-many as a copywriter, the point is that you have to gear everything towards the person that you’re speaking to, towards that prospect, towards the person that you want to sell. If you can make it as much about that person as possible, then you’re giving yourself a good shot at engaging them and compelling them in the long run. I think a lot of that transfers over from one-to-one sales to copywriting, is to know your audience, know who you’re talking to, know what they really want and need, and then try to channel that into your copy.

Kira Hug: So I’m going back to the storyline, because I have to complete it in my head. This is how my brain works. I’m like, OK. So then you went out on your own. And how did you get that going? Did you have enough colleagues, former colleagues, that you could just get business going pretty easily at that point?

Eddie Shleyner: I think when I started at G2, that was a really fortuitous thing for me, because everybody there was so supportive of this side thing, this very good copy thing that I was doing. And everybody from the CEO to the CMO to the marketing directors, all my bosses, everybody loved the fact that I had this blog on the side, this newsletter on the side. And I think a lot of that came down to hey, you know, you’re teaching yourself and others how to be better copywriters. That’s only going to benefit the business in the long run. So keep doing what you’re doing. Um, I think, you know, I was performing well in the role anyway, so there wasn’t like a, Hey, you’re distracted, uh, kind of narrative there. 

So it was just very lucky that I started at G2 and I was surrounded by people, um, that were supportive and genuinely wanted to help me. The first break I got there was just being around like a bunch of growth marketers, really talented growth marketers, people that taught me not necessarily how to write or what to write, but how to spread my stuff around the Internet really efficiently. And that’s when LinkedIn kind of came into the picture, when I started posting on LinkedIn and when I started creating growth loops from my website to my newsletter to LinkedIn, that just kind of amplified each post. And yeah, I really, I started growing a following on LinkedIn while I was still at G2. 

I couldn’t ask for more support than those people showed me. I mean, it was really great. And I think, you know, I was really lucky to have it. So by the time I left G2, I had left because there was already so much incoming so many incoming leads, so much incoming business that I felt safe, you know, walking away, even amid, you know, we were in the middle of the pandemic and everything, which was, I think a lot of people, they just looked at it sideways. They were like, I can’t believe you’re leaving now, but I just felt like it was the right time to go and kind of take advantage of this network that I’d built. So, yeah.

Kira Hug: I like the idea of, who said spread stuff, spread your stuff around the internet and growth loops. Yeah, efficiently. I mean, I want to do that. So how, how do you approach that? How are you doing that today? What’s working?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, certainly in the very beginning, I started creating growth loops from my newsletter to LinkedIn. So every single time I wrote a new micro-essay just as a branding exercise—they’re basically little essays that teach one principle or technique at a time. And so I would post it on LinkedIn, and then I would send out the exact same essay in my newsletter. And then at the end of the newsletter, I would just ask for support and be like, hey, if you like this, go reshare or go leave a comment or like it on LinkedIn. And by posting and sending out that newsletter in such close proximity and transferring my audience from the newsletter to LinkedIn, it would just amplify the post to all those folks. So now there’s the commenting or the pod trend, the commenting trend, where you kind of get together with a bunch of people and everybody comments on one another’s stuff. You know, it’s the same concept, only I was doing it with people that were in my newsletter and just asking for their support organically that way. And, you know, that, I think that helped me grow quickly. Just, just the fact that, you know, there was this audience transfer and this amplification on, on LinkedIn. on the platform itself. And then inside that post, there would be a CTA, a call to action to go to VeryGoodCopy.com if they wanted to read more. And VeryGoodCopy.com, if you look at it, I mean, it’s basically designed to get you into the newsletter. Like, you know, I don’t know how many thousands of CTAs there are across that site, but I would say 90% of them are designed to get you to subscribe. So it would just be a virtuous circle. People would see the post, they would go to the CTA, see that there’s more on VeryGoodCopy.com, they’d go to VeryGoodCopy, get into the newsletter, and the next time I sent out a newsletter, there would just be more people there to amplify the post. So I think there have been You know, over time, there’s diminishing returns like everything else. But in the very beginning, that was definitely an effective way to grow.

Rob Marsh: So I want to ask some follow ups on this. You started doing this when? Is this 2020 or before that? 2020 is when I left.

Eddie Shleyner: I think I started doing this about 2019. Okay.

Rob Marsh: And you were sending out how often? Once a week or less? More?

Eddie Shleyner: I think I was sending out once. I wasn’t that regimented. I mean, I think I was sending out once a week. That was my goal. I didn’t have any sponsors at that point or anything like that, so I wasn’t that obsessed with the frequency. But yeah, I think once a week is a pretty good estimate.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, the reason I ask, obviously, there are people teaching these things on LinkedIn, you know, post three times a week or whatever, and yet you were able to do it at least a few years ago, without that kind of frequency. How often do you post or share newsletters now?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, the newsletters still go out once a week, ideally. I take pretty frequent breaks, kind of like hiatuses. At least once a year, I’ll go three months and I’ll just kind of go a little dark. I won’t go on LinkedIn. I won’t send a newsletter out. Sometimes I’ll even kind of leave an away message on my email and I just won’t really check that or it won’t be that frequent. And usually that coincides with a big project that I’m doing, like this year was the book. So I took a couple months off and just kind of focused on doing the book. Last year was the course that I made and I just took like three months and literally just heads down, didn’t do anything else besides the course. And then sometimes it’s really just to kind of get back to, you know, like craft and just get back to what got me into this in the first place. You know, as a solopreneur, as somebody that’s doing this on their own, I think it’s really hard to balance craft and growth. 

And for so long, you know, like in the very beginning, Kira, when we were talking about like, you know, how this all started and I was kind of walking through like, uh, you know, the, the, the, the impetus behind Very Good Copy, that was very much like a craft phase. I was trying to go from like zero to 80% and trying to learn the fundamentals of this discipline. And then after I got that down a little bit and I started writing these essays and sharing them, and I realized that there was an audience for it and there was some potential for a business there, then I became really interested in growth mode. And perhaps that was like, you know, a consequence of the people that I was around. I was around a lot of growth marketers, around people that were good at it and wanted to see me succeed. 

So I just went into this kind of growth mode for a little while there, probably a couple of years where I was still writing and still trying to do my best work. But there was this kind of like, I don’t know, there was this tension between like, hey, how much time can I put into writing? And how much time do I need to put into all of the administrative work that goes into growing this thing? And I found over time that that was like, like a perfect way to burn out and a perfect way to really hate your life. You know, it’s just impossible to do all of that at once. 

And so now I kind of oscillate between growth and doing all the things that I need to do to spread my work around the Internet and do it efficiently and do it in a way that’s going to be effective. And then every now and then I’ll be like, OK, a lot on that. I got to take a break and I got to really focus on going from you know, really focus on growth going like going from zero to 80% is easy. I think compared to going from 81% to 90%, you know, that’s super hard, you know, comparatively. And then going from like 91% to 95%, you know, is exponentially harder than the last phase, you know, and then going from like 96 to 99, you know, that’s exponentially harder. And then like going to getting to a hundred is probably a fool’s errand. Like that’s probably never going to happen. So it’s just like growth. or I’m sorry, like craft is just this ever increasingly difficult thing to do and to develop. And I think it just, it deserves time, like dedicated focused time. And so that’s what I try to, I try to do that whenever I can.

Rob Marsh: And last question about this entire process, at least for me, as you’re putting this out and talking about giving back to the craft and learning, sharing your insights, does customer acquisition come into it at all as you’re sharing? Are you posting on LinkedIn in order to attract clients? Or is it really about sharing what you’re learning?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, sometimes, yeah, if I’m heads down, I’m probably not posting. I’m probably just dark. My account just kind of sits there. Every now and then, I guess I will. But yeah, the client acquisition piece, I think it’s more like a subscriber acquisition. I think that’s what I’m focused on. I’m not focused on getting direct leads from LinkedIn. I’m focused on getting those folks in front of my brand, in front of Very Good Copy, into the newsletter. And then from the newsletter, that’s usually where people decide to work with me or decide to buy a sponsorship or decide to buy a consultation or my course or something like that. So once they’re in the newsletter, that’s when I think I have much more control over the message. And so that’s always my goal is to get people into the newsletter. whether they become clients or sponsors or consultees or what have you. It all happens in the newsletter, I guess is what I’m saying.

Kira Hug: What does it look like today? How are you getting paid the different ways… sponsorships, consulting. But what are you primarily focused on? Is it all spread out and you kind of have revenue coming in multiple ways at this point?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. So a few revenue streams, client work. I made a course and I’ve been selling it for about a year. So that’s a revenue stream. Sponsorships for the newsletter and then consultations. So people buy a couple hours of my time and then we’ll sit and talk about their problems. And it’s definitely shifted from the majority of my income coming from client work to the majority coming from just these products. So the course, hopefully the book, sells a few copies. I’m interested in productizing the brand as much as I can and creating things that scale. And I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing client work. I think as a copywriter, it keeps you fresh. Solving real world problems is a great way to stay on top of your craft and on top of your discipline. So I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing it. It’s just there’s obviously an opportunity cost there. If I’m doing client work, then I can’t take the time to create a course or write a book. And so there’s that give and take, and I just have to pick a lane. And so I’m trying to live in that lane, the productized lane.

Rob Marsh: the newsletter and sponsorships, the economics of that, if you’re willing to share. We had a few months ago, maybe a little more than a few months ago, John Bijakovic was on our podcast and talked a little bit about this newsletter he’s building outside of the copywriting space. I think there are a lot of people who are listening who would love to build a newsletter, whether that’s on Beehive or Substack or ConvertKit or wherever, and look at that as possibly its own business or a significant part of their income. I wish it was that easy, you know, put up a newsletter and suddenly you’re making lots of money, but we just kind of talk through the economics of how you do it. If you’re willing to share the numbers, awesome. If not, you can be a little bit generic, but just curious about what that looks like.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. So yeah, the numbers fluctuate depending on how many subscribers there are and, and the time of year. And, and so, um, you know, the carrot that I kind of dangle over, over, over folks on the website is like, Hey, email me for, for rates. And so, you know, I can’t, I probably can’t share exactly what I’m charging. Um, you know, I’d like people to, I’d like to have those conversations one-on-one I think. But, uh, yeah, the economics are, um, yeah, they’re pretty simple. It’s a matrix, you know, and, and, uh, the more you buy, the more you save. And, um, you know, it’s, uh, It also depends on what your goal is. If your goal is conversion, then newsletters could be a good medium for you to advertise in. They could not be. Usually I like to go after folks that are interested in raising awareness and getting their brand in front of people, maybe associating their brand with very good copy. Yeah, so I certainly wouldn’t turn away anybody that wants to convert my subscribers into customers, but that would take a very specific offer, a very specific campaign, and we’d probably have to work together on that to make sure that it’s successful. But if it was an awareness campaign and they just wanted to get their logo out in front of 15, 20,000 people every time I send a newsletter, that’s a much easier conversation. And that does happen pretty often, actually.

Kira Hug: So if you’re, if I hire you and you’re my consultant and I also want to sell sponsorships to my newsletter, what advice would you give me as far as what’s realistic? Like how many people do I really need on my newsletter to even have a sponsorship conversation and be attractive to sponsors as a baseline? And then secondly, How do you create that win for your sponsor clients when it’s around awareness, which is sometimes harder to measure? It can be measurable, but it’s a little tricky at times as far as brand awareness and creating a win for them so they continue sponsoring in your newsletter.

Eddie Shleyner: Right. Well, I’ll answer the second one first. I think when it comes to awareness channels, it’s really about, hey, how many people saw this? you know, how many eyeballs from a very specific nature, a very specific discipline saw this. So if I could say, Hey, you know, every time I send out a newsletter, 20,000 marketers and copywriters are going to see your logo and your message above the fold. So it’s the first thing, you know, in my newsletter, it’s the ads are the first thing people see. UThat’s enough for them to say, Hey, that’s, that’s a win. And then if I could just show them the open rates, show them how many unique people opened it and saw the message. For a lot of people, that’s enough. Obviously, if you click through and you take an action on the other side of that click, then that’s obviously another KPI that they take into consideration. But from an awareness standpoint, yeah, sometimes it’s just enough to show people that logo. And a use case for that is like, hey, if you’re raising capital, maybe you’re raising your series A or B, and you just want to be a more known entity in the SaaS space or in the marketing space. That’s a big reason why people pick up ads in my newsletter, just to get that awareness level up. Your first question, I think that was about how many people in a newsletter?

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, we have a, our audience wants, I mean, I’m sure many of them would like to do something similar, get sponsors, but maybe they have 2000 people on their list and they’re really excited about that. Is it realistic? You know, Hey, you probably need to get up to 10,000 before you have any conversations with sponsors or like a rough number.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t discourage anybody. Um, from pursuing sponsors at really any size newsletter. Because I think what’s more important than the size is just the quality of those people and how alike they are, if that makes sense. If they’re all marketers, or they’re all copywriters, or they all have this one very specific interest, then it’s very valuable for people that are going after that group, that segment, to advertise with you, even if you have 100 people or 200 people? I think that’s my answer is, yeah, obviously, the bigger your newsletter, the bigger your audience, the more you can probably charge. But yeah, at the same rate, if you have 200 or 300 people that are fanatical about a certain subject and somebody with a product that’s aligned with that subject, once they get in front of those people, that’s still very valuable. And that could still turn into sales.

Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about audiences and all of that, I’m curious about the audience for your book. Actually, I’m curious about all things around your book, the decision to write it, your approach, methodology, what it’s about. Tell us a bit about that.

Eddie Shleyner: Sure. Yeah, I appreciate you, Rob. I mean, you know, the book is like very good copy.com, I think in print. You know, I, it’s a lot of people have asked me for some kind of like physical, tangible thing, you know, and I’ve never, I don’t know, maybe one day I’ll make hats or something or stickers, but that just never felt like the right thing to do, and I’ve always wanted to put my best work together into a book, and this is just that opportunity to do it, I think. It’s just, you know, it’s 10 years into Very Good Copy, and I would love to, you know, present all of these essays that I’ve written in a new kind of fresh way. And so I’ve been taking some time to go back and edit like my, all of my, all of the articles that would make it into the book, which is actually, it’s kind of a horrifying thing because it’s like, I can’t believe I, I published this at one point. It’s just incredible, like how much you, I guess, develop when you do something every single day and, you know, just reading some of my work back, it’s just, it’s just unbelievable to me. So I think if there’s anything that I’ve learned in the process, it’s that, you know, That craft bar is constantly moving, or it should be. And as it does, you are going to be extremely unsatisfied with a lot of the stuff that you’ve done in the past, a lot of the work that you’ve done, or at least I have been. So yeah, it’s been kind of an interesting process going back and editing and arranging everything. But that’s what the book is. It’s very good copy.com in print. you know, organized and arranged in a way that I think makes a little bit more sense than the website. And it has the benefit of being like me today, as opposed to me four or five or six or 10 years ago.

Kira Hug: And how does it fit in? I mean, other than you’re excited about it and it’s important to you, how do you see it fitting into the business? Is it like, OK, this is another great way to get people on my list and get them into my world or another purpose?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I think it’s just another product under the umbrella. And it’s a much more accessible product, I guess. hundreds of dollars and being purchased by folks that have a very specific goal or need in mind, a very specific problem that they’re trying to solve for. The book is probably a much more reasonable price point, a book price point, and it’s much more accessible to people and I feel like it could do a lot of the marketing for a very good copy as well. If people buy the book first and then they can make it into my ecosystem that way instead of seeing me on LinkedIn or Twitter or something first. So yeah, I think it’s a product. It’s a marketing channel. And then it’s also just something that would feed my soul, I think, and make me happy. And a lot of times that’s very much overlooked. by creators. It’s like, what can I do to get bigger, faster? And, you know, a lot of the joy is sucked out of this profession when you do that. You know, a lot of the reason why we started doing this in the first place becomes kind of null and void when it’s all about growth and it’s all about how fast can we grow. And, you know, you start looking at it as a competition between creators. It becomes really unhealthy. So it’s one of those things where, like I said, it’s something that’s gonna feed my soul and give me energy at the end of the day so that I can hopefully go out and put on part two and part three and part four.

Rob Marsh: And when can we expect the book? When’s it hitting store shelves by us?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, so it should be this spring, so spring 2024. Yeah, probably like May, probably like May. I’m gonna send you guys copies. because I really appreciate you.

Rob Marsh: It’s amazing. Okay, so you mentioned earlier, especially with these big projects that burnout can become a thing. We’ve talked a little bit about your experience with that and how you push through it or overcome it or deal with it. I know there’s a lot of different approaches to burnout and making sure that stuff gets done. Just how do you look at those kinds of challenges?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, for a while I just kind of white knuckled it, you know, like I was just like, man, I’m tired. You know, you wake up when you’re burnt out, you wake up and you’re like, man, I, I really just don’t want to do this. I think it’s a hard thing to describe. It’s not like the most tangible sensation. It’s just like this feeling that, Hey, this thing that I once loved or that once gave me energy is now sucking it out of me. And, um, you know, for a while I, I, uh, I just kind of white knuckled it because I was balancing G2 and I was balancing this newsletter and I was balancing the ebbs and flows of that. Not everything I put out was successful. I just kind of forced it and that would usually make the problem worse. I would usually become more unhappy. I’m more anxious. And so that’s when I would start taking these kinds of breaks, these two, three month kind of hiatuses. And I realized that that’s kind of a luxury and not everybody can do that. But at that point in my career, I felt like I was so deep into it that that’s what I had to do, was just step away. So that’s how I dealt with it. 

Now having kids and living kind of a more family life, I’m forced to not be in my work constantly. Not forced, that’s the wrong word. My priorities have shifted. I want to be with my family. I want to be with my kids. That’s the most important thing in my life now. And so I’m not constantly around work and I’m not constantly in work. And that’s really kind of healed the problem for me. It’s just like knowing that, hey, I have a certain amount of time, you know, that I can allocate to work every single day. And I just got to come in and I got five hours and I start the clock and I just see what happens. I just see what I can put out, you know. And then after that time’s up, go pick up the kids, go do that thing, you know. And it’s forced these boundaries. Whereas before, I didn’t really have those boundaries. Before, I was just so dedicated to making this thing successful that I might work 80 or 90 hours a week in a silo, not really having a lot of people around me to tell me, hey, you need to back off of this right now. So yeah, I think that’s what That’s the way I see it now is I have these boundaries that I have to respect. And that keeps the burnout at bay, I think, because I’m just not in it. I’m just not doing the work. And so I’m not doing as much work, I guess.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Kids make really good boundaries. Yeah. They help. They help, definitely.

Rob Marsh: They also step all over your boundaries.

Kira Hug: They create burnout in other ways, but we don’t have to get into that.

Eddie Shleyner: Did that make sense, Rob? I mean, I’m not sure if I’m answering it right, but I don’t know how else to put it. Burnout is such a strange thing. You just have to-

Kira Hug: I mean, you addressed it with this sabbatical that you’re taking. It’s like, I want to hear more about that. I mean, OK, I’m listening. I’m like, that sounds great. You’ve talked about it maybe a couple times with Sage Polaris, right? And maybe it’s come up in a couple other conversations. But a lot of people aren’t taking these sabbaticals, even though they’re focused. It’s not like you’re just going to the beach. You’re working on projects. So what advice would you give us? so that maybe we could do it? I mean, is it like, hey, you gotta go really hard in September and October, bring in a lot of client work, and then the best time is to take it over the holidays, take a couple months, come back in February, and get this going? Like, what works, practically speaking, to make this work for you?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I mean, the timing is a very personal thing, right? It’s like, you know, I usually take them in November, December, January, because that’s a slow time anyway. And I think the opportunity cost of taking it in that quarter or towards the end of the year in general is just lower. And it probably just aligns with when I’m most tired. I don’t know. It’s the end of the year, and I’ve been going for a while. And you just want to take some time to relax and be with your people. But it depends. I remember Brian Clark saying that Copyblogger would go on this really low maintenance schedule in the summer because you only have so many summers and you want to get out there and do things in the summer. And so that was when the Copyblogger team would go out and be with their people and be with their family and do their thing and kind of take these little mini sabbaticals where they didn’t work as much. So the timing is completely up to you. And from an economic standpoint, that’s also pretty personal. It’s like, how much are you willing to take on in order to be comfortable for the next four, eight, or 12 weeks without work? So there is a fair bit of planning that has to go into it. It’s just a matter of how prepared are you to plan and how well can you stick to that game plan in order to enable it. And then I think the third piece is just like, do you have something really important that you want to do in that time? For me, there was the goal of creating the course or getting this book off the ground. Sometimes it’s like, hey, my daughter’s zero days old. I just want to be there for the first three months and just make sure that I’m experiencing this part of her life, you know? Everybody has their own kind of motivations, I think. But it’s just like, yeah, it’s just kind of at the intersection of like, is the timing right for you? Can you get the planning right? And then there’s something really compelling that is worth kind of taking your attention away from more

Rob Marsh: So you may have just answered this question because I was thinking through like, what does the sabbatical look like on a day to day basis? Obviously, you know, if you’re spending time with your kids, you’re working on a project like a book, that’s a big part of it. I imagine that if I were to set aside time for myself to take a sabbatical, day one would start with a lot of Netflix catching up and time wasting. It’s not really wasting if you’re getting something out of it, but a lot of vegetation as opposed to letting me rejuvenate my creative juices in some way, right? So I’m curious if there are things that you’re doing specifically during that time period that you’ve set aside or is it just letting life come as it is and you just know at the end of the three months or two months, whatever that timeline is, you’re going to kick back in and start working just like you always did.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. Well, for a while, I did have that kind of feeling of like, Hey, if you know, even if I’m taking a break, I still need to be doing something semi-productive. And I think I read a book called, uh, 4,000 weeks by Oliver Burkeman. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Oliver Berkman. 

Eddie Shleyner: That’s right. You’ve read it. I think it’s safe to say we could recommend that book to anybody because it’s, it, it speaks to this. compulsion that people have to constantly be doing something, even when they’re supposed to be taking a break. Just constantly be doing something productive, useful, and maybe that’s not always necessary. Maybe it is just necessary to just totally turn off and feel bored or feel like you’re not getting anything done. And maybe that’s what you need in order to incubate properly and rest properly. 

And so I read that book. I read it a couple times because it was just so fascinating to me. I was like, man, I’ve been living my life kind of the wrong way for a long time. And like on one hand, I was kind of, you know, like this like workaholism kind of enabled Very Good Copy and enabled my career. And so it’s hard to condemn it completely, but maybe I just read the book at the right time in my life where this is the ethos that I need in order to sustain the longevity that, you know, a creative career demands, you know. This type of work is really hard and it’s really taxing. And so maybe it only makes sense that, you know, it’s easy in the same way when you’re taking a break. And it’s mindless in the same way when you’re taking a break. 

So to answer your question, what does it look like? I kind of work. Like Austin Kleon once said, he was like, I come to work and I put in my hours like a banker. Just four hours, five hours, I see what gets done. I do that. But then also, when I’m away, I’m away. And I binge on Netflix. put the kids down and just kind of try to do nothing. And it’s a stark contrast from the way that it used to be because it’s like I’ve been living a pretty domesticated kind of existence for a while now since my kids were born. So it’s not like, you know, I would put them down and be going out or be doing anything too crazy. I’ll go on the couch, but I would go on the couch and write, you know, I’ll go on the couch and I’d watch something. And I couldn’t get through the show because I would be like, oh, that’s a great idea. And I would pull out my phone and start writing something. Yeah, again, it’s like it’s a double edged sword because those habits enabled a lot of the work that I’ve done. But at the same time, they also burned me out in ways that made me really unhappy. 

And so I think coming out on the other side of it, I think the latter is more important. You know, your long term happiness and your long term mental health are going to enable your long term creativity and this career that we’re all trying to kind of make it in. So I prioritize, I guess, those habits now. So, you know, during a sabbatical, that’s what I do. I put in my hours like a banker and then I shut off and I don’t put undue pressure on myself because whatever, you know, we’re all dust in the end anyway. So it’s like, why am I doing it?

Kira Hug: How old are your kids now?

Eddie Shleyner: Bo is two and a half and Sophia is almost six months.

Kira Hug: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. So what does the future look like for you? I mean you are someone who seems you’re a planner in some ways enough to plan sabbaticals and so you’re thinking about longevity. It’s important to you. What do you see as your future also considering dramatic changes we’ve seen in the creative space over the last few years with AI and other shifts? How does that change what you’re thinking about if it does change anything?

Eddie Shleyner: well, I’d like to just I’d like to keep doing what I’m when I’m doing, you know, I think you know, I like thinking deeply about what brings me the most satisfaction is is writing these these micro essays and and putting together resources that help folks. And so I’m really interested in continuing along that path and being consistent with my output as far as the essays go. And, you guys ever seen that Giru Dreams of Sushi documentary? I love that documentary. It’s so good. It’s excellent, Kira. If you get a chance, I don’t know where it’s streaming, but it’s streaming somewhere, probably Hulu. But it’s an excellent documentary about this. I mean, during the filming, he was probably 85 years old. He was a sushi chef. And he was just obsessed with creating the same 30 or 40 pieces of sushi and doing it as best as he could. And I drew a lot of inspiration from that. And I would love to just get as good as I can at writing these essays. you know, putting out the best product I can and hopefully just putting out more and more volumes of these anthologies. That would be like a dream come true for me. And I guess the way AI plays into that is, you know, I guess time will tell. We’ll see where AI goes. But right now, I don’t think that AI is capable of really emulating, you know, like the human condition. expressing humanity and these really human moments that we all go through in a really accurate and authentic way. And I think a lot of my work is rooted in my life, my experiences, my people, the things that I’ve done, the anecdotes that I’ve come into. That’s the formula for these essays. I’ll take some kind of story, some kind of narrative about my life. And then I’ll take a lesson about copywriting or creativity, and I’ll see if I could put those together in a kind of flush way in a certain number of words. Those are the three, I guess, prongs or pieces to each one of those essays. And so I think that AI can probably teach the lessons, but it can’t really replicate those really specific human moments that I’m referencing. And so I don’t see it playing a huge part in the future, a very good copy at least.

Rob Marsh: Eddie, thanks for sharing so much about your business and what you’ve been working on, how you grew. I think it’s fascinating and a lot of good lessons to take from that. If somebody wants to get on your list, Join the other 15 to 20,000 people who are there getting your essays, notified about your book. Where should they go?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, just go to verygoodcopy.com. That’s home base. And that’s where they can get access to the full library. They can subscribe to the newsletter there. They can get on the waitlist for the book there. They can get the course there. That’s home base. So verygoodcopy.com is the place to go for sure.

Kira Hug: Awesome. Thank you, Eddie. Appreciate it.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I appreciate you guys. Thank you.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Eddie Schleiner. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation, give you a little bit more to think about. Eddie mentioned the book that he loved. It’s called the Adweek Copywriting Handbook. That book is also known as Advertising Secrets of the Written Word. It’s actually the same book. There’s two different titles. One was printed by Adweek magazine, and the other I think was printed by Joe. It really is one of the better books about response-driven copy, how you get people to engage emotionally, how to write headlines, how to find ideas. It’s worth picking up your own copy of that book and we’ll link to it in the show notes in case you want an easy link to do that. 

When Eddie mentioned being told by a mentor that he writes like a fire hose and needs to write more like a nail gun, I thought that was a brilliant illustration of the rule of one. As a writer, you can’t write to everyone. You have to write to your prospect, the buyer. Seeing them as a unique person rather than a large group of buyers or people with a particular challenge or problem, it changes the way that we write as copywriters and as content writers. And by the way, the same thing applies to going out there and finding clients. Take the nail gun approach rather than a fire hose approach. You will connect with your prospects better than if you try to talk to everybody in every niche about every kind of project. 

Let’s also talk about this idea of sabbatical. So Kira mentioned that this first came up on the podcast a long time ago when we were talking to Sage Polaris way back on episode 32 when she talked about taking four months off every year. It might be worth a listen if you like that idea. It also came up on episode 68 with Ashlyn Carter and again on episode 285 with Tyler McCall. So check out Those other episodes, 32, 68, 285, if you want to dive more into this idea of taking a sabbatical. The idea of taking time off or away from your business is a powerful one. Whether you do what Eddie did and you focus on a project like writing a book, or you’re just getting away from everything to recharge your batteries and refill the creative tank, it’s worth considering doing. Now, you may not be able to take a month off each quarter or even more than a few days in a quarter or in a year. I still think that it’s helpful to think about taking time away, away from clients, away from your desk, away from projects, away from the laptop, away from pitching and marketing, or even thinking about pitching and marketing. It helps light the fire again if you’re burned out, or it helps you avoid the burnout in the first place. Taking time away for weekends, for evenings, putting the work aside is critically important. Sometimes it’s not even taking away time from your business as much as it is just changing the scenery. So go work somewhere else for a day or two or for a week or two if you can. Go to the library instead of working in your basement or the kitchen table or in your office. Get a hotel room and work there. Go sit in the park if you’ve got a laptop. Just change your environment if you can’t stop working right now. And even if that’s not possible, start planning for a future sabbatical or a week off where you can leave everything behind other than maybe a notebook and a pen and just be off. If you make it happen, I’d really like to hear about it, the impact that it has on your thinking and what you bring back to your business. 

Okay, thanks to Eddie Schleiner for joining us to chat about his business and becoming a copywriter, that process that we all go through. Be sure to check out Eddie. He’s on LinkedIn. He’s also at verygoodcopy.com where you can subscribe to his newsletter and watch for his book coming out in the next couple of weeks.

 

Most copywriters and content writers don’t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that’s a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Jason’s Offer for Copywriters
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason.

Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let’s kick off with your story. Let’s start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let’s start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry.

Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don’t even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box. 

And so there was a company name there. I was like, I’m going to work for that company and I’m going to go on tour with Rush and I’m going to do this. And over the years, I’ve just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn’t all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work. 

But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesome. And then I went out with Rush, which was my dream. And I also went out with Peter Gabriel as a tour and a variety of other smaller groups that probably most people don’t know. But it was this culmination of setting that intention and having that kind of clarity of goal and just knowing that you’re going to do it. And yeah. 

And so it was a wild journey, being out on the road, doing those shows, like being in a situation where you are playing to an audience, right? We all do this in our businesses. We all have an audience. We have customers, we have prospects, but being in that environment where everyone is in a concert, we get there hours earlier, we’re tailgating, we’re sitting there, we’re listening to the songs. We’re so excited about what’s going to happen. 

What would happen if your customers were doing that with your business? They showed up early getting in the mood to learn from you or work with you or do something. And then when they’re there, all the problems in the world fade away and they are so present and they’re so involved and they’re engaged and they’re on their feet, they’re dancing, they’re jumping, they’re singing along, they’re sharing your words and singing your song for you. And then at the end, they go crazy with the standing ovation. 

I grew up with that over and over and over again. It’s intoxicating, right? And so being with these groups, you learn this. It’s like the Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. You start to see the things, the techniques, the tactics that you use that elicit that kind of response night after night with new people, different audiences, different crowds, how you get them that level of engagement. It was pretty cool. And for the people on the team, the employees, there’s no better place to work than when you’re creating that kind of joy and excitement and engagement with people. 

So you see the front stage, what’s going on with the customers and the backstage, what’s going on with the team. And it was amazing. So I started there and then I went on to do some more legit theater. So Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar, Man of La Mancha, same experience, right? Night after night, getting those audiences to have that kind of experience and have that transformation and playing a role, it was super fulfilling, super exciting.

Rob Marsh: So while we’re talking about that part of your career… that gets me thinking. Obviously, the experience is everything, but there’s so much behind the scenes that goes into creating the experience. I mean lighting is just part of it, right? And as you’re talking about it, I’m thinking about the message that we have as copywriters—or whatever businesses we’re running—is a little bit like the music. We sit down, the musician sits down, writes a song, But then all of this other stuff has to happen to create an experience that is amazing. So talk just a little bit about the elements of how that all comes together. And obviously, the interest is in how you put together a rock concert for someone like Rush or U2 or whatever. But I really want to apply this to my business. What are those elements that I need to be thinking about in order to create an awe experience?

Jason Friedman: Yeah. I love the question. Let me just start off by saying, like defining what I think experience is. So we have a frame of reference to level set, right? So, when I think of the word experience, experience is not something you do. Experience is something that someone has. It’s not the cause, it’s the effect, right? So experience in my mind, a customer experience, it’s the result of all the things you’ve done, right? That allows the customer to feel something. So experience is a customer’s perception of the interactions that they’ve had with your brand, with your business, with your copy, with whatever it is, right? It’s a feeling and it’s their perception of that feeling. 

It changes based on where they start, right? If I come in and I’m having a horrible day, you’re starting with me from a very different place than if I came just off that rock concert and I’m on a high, right? And part of understanding all of these things is how do we bring people in? What is that onboarding, if you will, that gets people in? And how do we look at our different customers or different avatars or personas who are going to be interacting with us, and understanding how to meet them where they are? It’s not a one size fits all approach. And most businesses, most organizations, we kind of treat people that way, which is like, oh, here’s the journey. And here’s how people are going to come into our world. And we just assume it’s going to be a fit for everybody. 

So as we think about this, as you think about your copy, I’m not a world-class copywriter. I wish I was, but I know enough that I try to paint pictures with words. And I try to use as many senses as I can trigger and interact with. And I do that in my copy, but I do that in my business. And so I think about how do I? In a theatrical show, the script is one thing. When the words matter, there’s a script. Right. That’s true. When the words matter, there’s a script. And the beauty of having a script is that as we start to put it together, like in the show. If I want an audience to laugh at exactly this moment, night after night, I can get them there with the script, with the acting, with the scenes, with all the other elements that I put in place. And when I’ve done that, I’ve actually been able to repeat that consistently, reliably with different audiences in different cities, night after night. 

So how does that work? It’s all the elements. It’s the way that the lines are delivered. It’s not just the words written. It’s how the person says them. The actor or actress recites those words. It’s how the other person reacts to those words. It’s the costumes, it’s the lighting, it’s the scenery, it’s the environment, it’s the colors, it’s the textures of things. It enhances the mood and it sets us up. Just like we’re talking about when people come to the rock concert, they get there, they’re tailgating, they’re having a drink or they’re eating some food and they’re playing the different songs in the background and there’s other people singing. All of the environment, all of the elements come together and they affect how someone’s feeling about that situation. 

And so in your business, as you’re writing copy, ask how do I paint that picture for someone where they really have that feeling? Because it’s that’s where that’s where the rubber meets the road. Right. And so what we do with clients all the time is we start at the end. We don’t start at the beginning. We don’t just start writing some copy or start designing a customer journey or deciding what the first moment has to be. We actually go all the way to the end and we say, look, They just finished reading your copy. They just finished attending your show. They just finished an amazing Zoom mastermind meeting, whatever it happens to be. What would the ideal, most amazing customer testimonial be? We call this the ideal customer script, because again, when the words matter, there’s a script. 

So what we want you to do is we want you to script that ideal customer reaction, the best word of mouth testimonial they could ever give it. But we don’t want you to do it based on what most people consider the result.  Most people consider the result like if I’m selling something for weight loss, it’s like I’m going to lose 20 pounds in 30 days. That’s not the result. The result that I want you to focus on is that I feel better in my clothes, that I was the person that was sitting on the couch and my friend would call me to go out and I would say, I’m sorry, I can’t go out tonight because I would dread walking into my closet and seeing that nothing fit me and I didn’t want to go out. But now I’m actually calling my friends saying, hey, let’s go out. I have like all these different clothes I can pick from. I’m actually not sitting on the couch with a shovel of ice cream going to my mouth. I feel good and I’m doing things. I’m active and I’m living my life. We want people to tell that journey. I was nervous when I first started. I’ve tried so many things. So we want the journey, the testimonial, that ideal customer script really illuminates their journey and the emotional rollercoaster ride they went on and shows these mile markers, these moments where they’ve had these transitions all along that way. 

When you’re able to help your clients do that and see that and feel that, now I can reverse engineer the whole journey that the customers go on so that those moments happen for them. I can reverse engineer what has to happen. And that’s how we do it in theater, right? We have the script, we know what we want it to be. Now we say, how do we stage the show? How do we bring that script to life in a way that we get that laugh at exactly that moment, night after night? 

So what we teach people how to do really is build a business operating system that allows them to scale their business. They get consistent results time after time again, that gets the response. Because that marketing, those testimonials, those, when your customers say those, that’s what you’re going to start using on the front end of your funnel. I want you to flip your funnel. I want you to focus on the results that people are getting and become so obsessed with your customer results that that is your marketing. Your experience is your marketing. That’s when we put $1 in ads and we get 20, 40, 60, 100, 1,000 back because we know that the conveyor belt that’s bringing people through your program is going to get results night after night after night.

Kira Hug: So this is fun because it has been a couple of years since we last sat through your workshop. And hearing you talk through this, this is the part that stuck the most. And this is the part where I’ve been quoting Jason for years. But it’s the mile marker piece here and the emotional roller coaster and that we can really reverse engineer that for our customers and clients. Could you talk more about the mile markers and how to view that along the journey from the perspective of a copywriter who’s working in a service based business and is thinking, if I’m working with this client over the next month, delivering a sales page, how should I think about these mile markers?

Jason Friedman: Yeah. You’re going to have to help me with this a little bit. We’ll do this together, right? So I’ll, I’ll be the client and you’re probably the copywriter cause I haven’t worked that way, but I have worked with copywriters and I’ve been in that. I think the biggest thing, like when you’re thinking about a journey, is let’s start at the beginning. The most important thing in the beginning, we have a first impression, right? First impressions matter. It sounds very cliche, but it really does. It sets the tone for everything. And so we have to think about onboarding in the beginning, right? 

Now, I believe that onboarding actually happens many times in the relationship with a customer, with a spouse, with friends, with everybody, right? Onboarding is something that you do every time there’s a transition in the relationship. So when I first come into your world, before I hired you, you have to onboard me into your universe. I might only be problem aware, I might be solution aware, I might be brand aware, but we have three different kinds of people that maybe coming in and they’re at different places. So how do I bring them in and get them to a place where we kind of have a baseline to have a conversation? So there’s onboarding that happens there. 

Now let’s say you hire me, right? Now I have to do an onboarding there because the relationship just transitioned again. And now there might be another major transition where we finished our first project, now we’re going to a second project. There might be another onboarding that happens there. So onboarding is something I like to think of as how do I welcome people in and set and manage expectations and set things up for success as a key shift in a relationship, right? So onboarding is going to happen all the time. 

Now, onboarding is not logistics and housekeeping, although most people believe that it is. And so imagine that I just hired you. You’re my copywriter. And you’re like, awesome, Jason. Here’s everything that I need from you and everything you have to do. I just hired this person. You just gave me seven months worth of homework. I want to die. Why did I hire this person? So what we need to do in onboarding is we need to bite size our onboarding in a way that brings people in. We want to bring people in. We want to set expectations. but we want to guide them through an experience that doesn’t overwhelm, right? Because when someone buys something from you, when someone signs a contract, they buy a product, a service, an online course, offline course, it doesn’t matter. I believe that is an intention, not a commitment. It’s an intention, not a commitment. 

And so part of that onboarding is like buyer’s remorse is going to set in pretty quickly. Did I make the right decision? The itty bitty shitty committee inside their head is going to start going in cycles wondering, is this the right thing? And so we have to help them reassure and reaffirm that it was a good decision. And if we’re overloading them and overwhelming them, we’re going to do ourselves a disservice, right? So just psychologically speaking, like we’re dealing with cognitive biases. They may have stuff that happened in the past when they hired someone that’s coming up for them because it feels similar. And now you’re maybe at a disservice because they were used to it, they got that with a hot copywriter before. And that was, they almost had the same email. And now they’re like, Oh my God, that didn’t work out. This is going to be bad. So we have to think about those things. Like they’re coming with their own baggage with their own experience. 

So what I, what I like people to do is I want you to find, we call it the time to first value. I want you to find the fastest, shortest way to get them a win as soon as someone starts with So that first mile marker, like you’re going to give them some onboarding, you’re going to welcome them in. And then the first thing I want you to do is, how do I get them a win? Now, what is a win? A win is a perception of success. And it’s not going to be that they got their first bit of copy finished and it’s awesome. That’s a big, big, big win, right? That’s down the road. What’s a little win that gets them to say, wow, this is good. This is working. 

So as you start to think about that, I want you to think of these mile markers as wins or key milestones that someone sees that they’re moving in the right direction. They have momentum. They’re making forward progress. Right. And so if you wrote that script already, you know what some of those key moments are going to be because you put yourself in the shoes of the customer. You looked at it from their lens. One of the tricks that we like to do is use theater again. Imagine that you’re Matthew McConaughey and you’re playing this character on stage. How do you get into character? I want you to think about that. I want you to think like if you were going to be your customer, you were going to go to the grocery store as your customer, what would you be thinking when you walked into the grocery store? What kind of mood would you be in? What car did you drive in with? How would you, you know, what do you dress as? How do you feel? Are you, are you someone that’s going to say hello to everybody? Or are you going to kind of be in your own place and not looking around? We need to know how you could believably portray your character on stage, like Matthew McConaughey. 

And so as you start to put yourself in that role, what would that first win be? What do I need to feel confident and say, wow, this was great? And so you’re going to do that with your script, and then you’re going to reverse engineer and start saying, what is that first win? What’s the next cool thing? And as you start to look at all these things, you can really analyze what success looks like. 

Now, the other mistake that I see most people make is that we measure against the ultimate result. So it’s like, oh, I didn’t get there yet. When you measure against the ideal result, it’s always going to be a negative number until you get there. It’s never going to be enough. So I want you to actually measure from where people started. Because it’s always going to then be a positive number. I’ve made progress to here. Now I’m here. And so our job, if we want our customers to feel good and see the momentum and see that they’re making progress with us, we have to show them. We have to communicate that. 

So in your copywriter example, how do I know what those key stages are? And how do I know? Oh, awesome. I’m on step three. We’ve already made it through step three and we’re only in two. That’s awesome. That’s amazing. Right. And let’s say that step four is going to be much bigger to get from step three to step four is going to take longer. That’s a bigger lift. Well, I accurately communicate those expectations. I set and manage those expectations. Because it’s like I think about it like in our business, like what we help people do is figure out how do we create this perfect journey, right? This ideal journey that gets people from point A to point B and allows it to be as smooth as possible, right? So imagine that you’re on a water slide at a pool. You go down this crazy water slide, you’re at a cool resort, but there’s not quite enough water. And so you get stuck and you chafe a little bit, right? And then all of a sudden, they realize, oh, there’s a lot of friction there. It’s not working. And they turn up the water. And all of a sudden, the water starts flowing, and you start going, and you’re going up and down. And even if you’re going uphill, there’s enough movement and momentum that you keep going smoothly and fluidly through that experience. We want your journey to be that fluid experience. We need to remove and reduce as much friction along that journey. 

So if you think about it from your customer’s perspective, what are the hardest parts? Part of it is not knowing what the next step is. Part of it might not be not knowing where we’re headed or when we’re going to get there. Part of it might be that you’re off in your own place doing all this amazing work. You’re researching, you’re writing, you’re testing, you’re doing all the things, but we don’t know because we’re not seeing it real time. So we don’t know what’s going on. So communication might be, oh my gosh, I just had some amazing things. Like here’s a little snippet. I can’t wait to share the rest of it with you. It might be that showing that you’re engaged and you’re excited that gets them to feel really you know, part of the process with you that there’s like a little bit of co-creation going on, maybe, or maybe it’s just updates. It depends on the client, right? But as you think about that journey, like, how do you make it better? 

So if the step three to step four is a bigger lift, it’s like you need to build up a little more momentum to get them over that hump. If you’re driving a car, if you hit the accelerator, and you’re holding it at a steady pace, you’re just going and all of a sudden you hit a hill, you have to hit the accelerator more to get up that hill. So what do you do between step three and four to give it a little bit of a boost for them to know this is a longer spot or this is a harder piece. Or once we get to this place, it’s all downhill and it’s gonna be smooth sailing. It’s just gonna take a little longer. So bear with me, here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna check in with you, you know, once a week for the next three weeks and just kind of keep you up on the progress. If you have any questions, you know, whatever that is. But you’re setting and managing those expectations all the way through, those mile markers help them. 

And when you share things that will help them feel confident about the work that you’re doing, like maybe it’s like those, like those little nuggets of like some samples or some little pieces or just letting them feel reassured that you’re on the same page. And we’re like, what I’m going to see when it comes out is actually going to be aligned with what I’m looking for. You’re going to find that they’re pretty happy and they’re pretty excited about it. And those are things that they’ll probably tell other people about later because it meant something. Not everyone else is doing that, right?

Kira Hug: It’s so amazing because I’m so proud of my onboarding. I have my email and it has all the things my clients need to do for me and it’s really well organized and it actually works pretty well. But when I hear you talk about it this way, I’m like, I’m overwhelming them at step one. Could I break it up and just give them a piece of it? And could I also create some type of roadmap of visual because I’m a visual person to show them all the steps and to track like, here’s where we are. What do you recommend?

Rob Marsh: At the very least, Kira, you need to be sending them like a protein bar so they have the energy to get through it.

Kira Hug: It’s interesting too because I thought I was doing a good job by being organized and just getting it all in one email because otherwise I’m worried they’re going to lose emails and it’s all scattered. But it sounds like that actually isn’t the most efficient way of doing this.

Jason Friedman: Every business is different. And so I think you’re right to be thinking about it. And most of us are like, oh, I’m doing a great job. Nobody’s complaining. That’s not necessarily the best measure of success. How long does it take people to complete? Could they get it done faster and would it make them feel better and you if we did it and we broke it up? Now, some of us also like to bin. Can we like it all in one email? So maybe when you first talk to me, say, hey, listen, I want to actually tailor the onboarding experience to you. 

Let me ask you three questions so I know how to best set you up for success. And you actually tailor that. If it’s someone that says, look, give me everything at once, organized neatly, that’s great. Or it’s like, hey, listen, I like to like, you know, I like to kind of break it up. So, you know, it might be that, right. And it might be like that. There’s something that they do when they submit step one, step two, step three, and it just triggers another note back saying, awesome, congratulations, you finished step one. As you know, from our initial email, this is your next step. Looking forward to hearing back or whatever. It could be that, I don’t know. Again, I don’t know your specific process, but think about it from that perspective. where it can be more like choosing your own adventure, right? It’s like, I can go and do it as I want. And some of us like to binge, right? So like, if I’m doing all this and I decide, hey, you know what, Saturday is my day, I’m gonna kind of get everything set up for Kira so that I have all the stuff in place, then I might want everything in one spot, or at least know that I have all the information, but here’s my first mission, is this. So just look at it through the lens of the customer. Because what you said is exactly how we all think. I organized it. I made sure that’s all clear and whatever, because it’s easier for me as the business to have it all clean and then get it off my plate and get it over to you. It’s just writer’s logic versus reader’s logic. 

You know what you’re saying. You know what you’re thinking. But are they getting the same message when they read that thing? So I would just encourage anybody. How do I make it better for my customers so that they feel that it’s not overwhelming? And it could be calling it out, saying, hey, listen, congratulations, this is the first step. We’re so excited you’re working with us. Iin order to give you the big overview, I’ve actually attached a document that has everything that you need to do. But for right now, I really need you to focus on these two things. So you can do both. I think it’s just, it’s just thinking about your avatars. And if you have different avatars in your business, how do I mass customize it? How do I make it so that they all feel like it’s done the way that they most need it? And there’s probably a way to do it where, like I just gave that example, maybe you have both within one email and they’re covered.

Rob Marsh: Jason, as we’re talking about this customer experience, I want to go back to your story and your career path because I think it’s really helpful to see other examples, maybe outside of the copywriting world, the marketing world, where you are basically producing these kinds of customer experiences. So as you look you left the theater world—or maybe you never really left the theater world because that’s really what you’re doing—instead of doing it for Broadway shows, I know you started doing some of this stuff in retail environments. Will you tell us how your career evolved from there?

Jason Friedman: When I, when I started I was brought in to help bring theatricality to retail. So we were bringing in technology like lighting and sound and scent you know, like, because they wanted to kind of zhuzh it up, if you will, right? It started, I’m going to date myself right now, but this was in 1997, 1998. And so at that time, online shopping was just becoming a thing, right? I know many people listening to this probably don’t remember a time when you couldn’t go on Amazon, but it was pre Amazon. And so what they wanted to do was make sure that people came to their store and they found value in being in the store versus just going to some random online, shop. And so the first client was Foot Locker. And they brought us in to help them create what we were calling a store of the future at the time. Like what would an ideal shopping experience look like? How would we take the current shoe store shopping experience and make it be something special so that it would beat the online market?

Rob Marsh: And at the time, shoe stores were like racks of shoes. You’d walk in and that was it.

Jason Friedman: There were boxes stacked up. There was like a sample on top of that. They had some merchandising along the walls, like slat wall design and whatever. It was mildly functional. So they had a bunch of extra inventory in the back and you had shoe jockeys running back and forth, getting stuff and trying to help you and kind of ignoring you when they were helping somebody else. And it was, it was messy. So we did some work and really started to understand what would be the ideal experience for people? They wanted to find what they wanted quickly, but what we also learned was that as people spent more time, shopping and browsing in the store, you know, feeling good about it, excited and engaged in it, they would actually spend more money. The average order value would go up, right? Makes sense. 

So we, we redesigned the store quite dramatically, where it would tell stories. And so imagine that the store actually kind of came to life. So you’d walk in the store, and you would feel like you should go to the left, you could go to the right, but you’d feel like you should go to the left. And so the store was kind of guiding you in, and it was partially the way the merchandising was set up. It was partially the way the lighting was moving you, like it was actually moving you through there. Audio was moving around the space, and you just kind of felt like naturally this is the way to go. And as you go through, TV screens and sounds and whatever, the store would come to life. 

And it was about athleticism. So we had media that we were producing that would get you in the mood and would be stuff about basketball and, you know, elevating your heartbeat and all sorts of fun stuff. And everything was organized in a different way. And we would feature different products, the way lighting would focus on it. So if you know the Foot Locker, they have this like a crazy, like referee guy is like their logo and he has like a whistle hanging out. So all of a sudden you’re like tweet, tweet, tweet. And then all the lights would pivot and go and they’d highlight a specific product. And then a promotion would come up on the screens for it. 

Now, what was happening is people were actually excited about the store. They were going and they would look at the products that were being featured. It was organized in a way that let them find things and was also exciting for them to go and discover more things. So they weren’t just there. They came in like, I want to find this shoe. And they said, wow, like, let me see what else they have. And so what ended up happening through that first store that we built is they had a 400 percent increase in sales. Wait, what? Boom. So they’re like, OK, that’s crazy. Let’s try this again. Let’s do another pilot. The first one we did was in Watertown, Massachusetts, just outside Boston. The second one we did was in Oakbrook, Illinois, just outside Chicago. Same store, same design, different demographic, same results, 400% increase in same-store sales. Boom. And then they’re like, all right, let’s do one more. So then we did one more just outside of New York City in Stanford, Connecticut. Same results, 400% increase. Boom. And so we had figured something out. We figured out a formula of how we would engage people. 

Remember, this started out by wanting to make it more theatrical. Let’s hang some screens. Let’s put some TVs in. And what we asked was, if someone saw the screen, what would you have them do? What would you want them to do next? And they couldn’t answer that in the beginning. But over lots of conversation and really understanding it through the lens, it’s like, well, what would the customer want? What would be awesome for them? What would get them to want to be in the store more? When they leave, what would get them to not only have a positive experience and feel good, but what would get them to go to their friends and say, wow, you’ve got to go to check this store out, because that’s what was happening. We were getting foot traffic because of word of mouth, because it went viral within their little communities of what was happening. Anyway, fade out, fade in, we ended up doing like 1,000 plus stores all across the country, different levels of investment. We had a flagship A store, then a slightly less expensive B, C, D, based on the market and the size and the footprint and the real estate. But it was super successful. And from that, Rob, we ended up getting called by lots of different brands. 

What it really was, was how do you tell these compelling stories that engage your customers to be more present, to buy more products, to invest in the relationship in a bigger way? And we ended up doing it not just with retail, but hospitality, so theme parks, restaurants, spas, financial institutions, And then ultimately universities, we ended up working with them on raising funds for their endowments. Stanford was a big client, Duke, Yale, Harvard, tons of universities, and helping to tell their story and create an experience for their donors that would actually want them to learn more about the initiatives and not just give money to put their name on a building for the vanity of it, but actually care about the costs. And so we started to bring causes and bring those stories to life through the same formula. It’s the same formula that I’m talking about to write the copy and make that experience better for the customer. It doesn’t matter. It’s online, it’s offline, it’s events, it’s retail, it doesn’t matter. It’s the same formula.

Kira Hug: So let’s talk about shifts in the customer experience space. I know that we had chatted before we hit record on how you’ve adjusted some of your programs and teaching. So I’m curious, has anything shifted over the last few years where you’re teaching in a different way or we should be aware of different things as we think about our customer experience?

Jason Friedman: The world is evolving rapidly, as we all know. I’m sure you guys talk a lot about AI nowadays, right? It’s the great equalizer right now. And, you know, we’ve had this happen many times, uh, since we’ve all been, you know, on the planet and it’s going to continue down the road, right. There’s going to be new things down the road. What is very ironic about all of this—so 25 years ago, I remember saying to a group that I was speaking to, you know what? Customer experience is the most impactful, best way to differentiate your business in the marketplace. It will allow you to rise above your competition. For 25 years, I’ve been saying that. It’s more important today than it ever has been before. I’m still saying that. Today, I mean it even more than I meant it then, and I meant it then. 

Here’s the thing. Anybody can put a bunch of prompts into chat GPT or wherever you want to use as your AI tool, and they can create a program, they can create a course, they create a sales letter, they can create a sales page and have it done in just a matter of minutes. What’s going to make them hire you as their copywriter? What’s going to make them hire me as their coach or as the course that they choose to learn? It’s going to be the results that they get. And it’s going to be about how they feel as they’re going through that journey. It’s the conflation of both of those things that really sets people apart. And I believe that’s the experience that you create. I know that the experience you create, it is your fingerprint. It is your differentiating point. It is what creates your blue ocean, if you will, in your business. 

And so for all of us today, if we want to have that staying power, if we want to have that longevity, we need customers who love working with us. We need customers who actually become our sales who share their experience with others, who bring other people in. Word of mouth is amazing. It’s important. It’s one of the best possible ways to do it. And when your marketing is the stories of your successful clients, when those become your marketing and your experience is what they’re sharing, when we talk about that ideal customer script, they’re really sharing their journey, you will have an exponential growth in your business. 

Every dollar that you put into the front end of the funnel becomes many more returns on the back And so what we do today is we’ve been doing the same thing for a really long time, teaching people this formula. But we’ve enhanced the formula. We’ve learned a lot over the years. And where we were kind of focusing primarily on customer experience before, we’re really focusing more on that kind of customer obsession over positive results. Right. And so what we’re helping you, like if you’ve got a business where you need retention, right, if you have a membership or a subscription or something like that, this will help you. 

If you’ve got a business where you want people to buy another engagement or upgrade to another platform or another level of service, this will help you. If you’ve got a business where, you know, having a sales force is expensive, this will help you. This will turn your existing customers into your sales Right. We talk about this, this ideal result. It’s when they rave about your business. It’s when they return to buy more products from you. It’s when they renew their products and services and it’s when they recruit others to come and buy from you. Right. It’s not a referral. It’s a recruit. It’s active. It’s engaging. They’re going out and they’re, they’re selling for you because they had a transformation. And we’re all in this for the transformation. That’s why we do the work we’re doing, right? I’m not in this for the money. Money is a nice, you know, nice measurement. It’s a nice yardstick. We got to eat, we got to put food on the table. But I want to help more entrepreneurs, I want to help more small business owners, I want to help more copywriters get bigger, better results. And so as I’m doing it, I have to get those results. So for me, they have to win. Otherwise, they’re not going to buy more stuff from me, they’re not going to tell more people about me. 

And so we help people understand how to shift the funnel, like flip the funnel and put the focus on the inside of the business. All the gurus, all the marketing teachers, everybody out there is teaching us how to get more leads, how to optimize for conversions. And that’s important. It’s definitely important. But let’s say that you’ve optimized everything and then people come in and they don’t like the experience. They ask for a refund, they exercise the guarantees and the warranties and all of those things. When you really look at the cost of acquisition, when you start factoring all those defectors and all of those refunders and all those things in, it’s not such a rosy, pretty picture. And all of our budget is going to strangers. How much of our budget and our time and our focus goes to the people who said yes. And when we do focus our time and our energy on the people who said yes, and we flip that funnel, we really focus on the inside, then once you’ve optimized and done all that great work, now I’ve got a consistent machine that’s bringing people through getting results, and they’re going to keep filling the funnel. 

So my cost of acquisition goes way, way, way, way down. And my cost of delight, like I can put more of my energy here, because I’m saving so much money here. It’s unbelievable. Like if you look at just the online business marketplace, right, people that are selling courses, Only 3 to 15% of buyers actually get results from the programs. And there’s a huge percentage of buyers that never even crack the seal. They never even start the program or get going. 

So if we started focusing on how we optimize that side of our business instead of just optimizing people that give us a few dollars up front, every dollar that comes in up front will be worth many, many more dollars. And so what we’re trying to do really is create that awareness. And in our program, you know, we call it the kinetic customer formula. I want customers who are in momentum, right? And so, you know, potential energy, energy with potential, not in motion, kinetic energy, energy that’s in motion, that’s taking action. And so we teach people this kind of way to put this operating system into their business that delivers these results consistently.

Kira Hug: I’m going to ask a quick follow up before, I don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but can you speak to just shifts in the online marketing space? We know it’s a tougher market now. Customers are more skeptical because you’ve shared those stats because so many of them don’t get the results that they’ve paid for in the past. It’s just crowded now. It’s shifted. So could you just speak to what you’ve observed in that shift? it relates to what you’re doing and makes it an obvious solution. You have to improve your customer experience. Otherwise, you’re not going to last today. It’s just the market’s not there anymore.

Jason Friedman: 100% like and beyond the experience, right? You have to get them results. People need to get the results. And so that’s why I keep saying it’s more important today than it ever has been before. And it’s true. So like, here’s what I’ve observed, right? Take some of the big marketing gurus out there, right? I’m not going to name drop anybody. I’m good friends with a lot of them. And I think they’re awesome. But when you look at how their business has shifted, the way they used to sell their products was through affiliate relationships. So they’d have other marketers that have an email list and they would promote for them. And the big guys would promote the big guys. 

Well, the big guys are not promoting the big guys as much because they don’t have room on their calendar. And so what you see as a shift is the people that are winning affiliate contests and leaderboards and are getting the biggest results are the customers of those gurus that are teaching it who actually use their system and got the results. Now think about that. That’s what I’m teaching you how to do, really. How do you turn customers into your superhero? So your customers are actually getting those amazing results, and then they want to tell other people. And then you’re putting them in a system where you can reward and recognize them for even doing that further, right? And so what you’re seeing as a shift is the big online space, like the affiliate, you know, universe, joint venture universe, and that the ones that are having the biggest success with that are the ones whose customers got results from using the program, and then they’re sharing it with their audiences. And they’re doing it, again, in that recruit, not in a refer. 

It’s not passive. They actively get behind promotions because it has changed their life. They feel an obligation or a duty because they’re not just helping someone make more money. They’re sharing their journey of how they actually had a transformation and how it affected their life. And that’s what we’re talking about with the ideal customer script in a nutshell, right? And I’ve been working with some of these gurus as well to help them do this, right? Because that’s the way, right? When your customers get the results and they wanna tell other people, that’s what’s gonna help you win. 

And so in the online marketplace, with all the crowdedness, with all the noise, the way that you’re, like, if you’re looking for someone to clean your house, you go on Facebook, you know, local Facebook group, right? And say, hey, does anyone have a great person? You don’t know, you’re taking a referral from a friend, right? Like that’s how we do things. Like we look for the social proof. Now, if the social proof and those testimonials and those case studies and whatever become really expository about their journey and how they were going across that, you start to relate to those even more and you start to buy into them and you can see yourself actually having those success stories, right? Like hearing that someone lost 20 pounds, you’re not seeing your journey in that. You’re like, okay, great. I know a lot of people lost 20 pounds. I’ve tried this a thousand times. But when you hear about the struggles they had, and you’re like, oh my gosh, that’s my story. Wait, they did it? I can do this. Oh my gosh. This is different. The way this person’s teeth, that would work for me. I understand that. Wow. Like a light bulb, breakthrough, right? That’s what’s helping people take action and move forward. It’s that they’re seeing themselves, and they can understand and relate to it in a different way. 

And so as we start to understand what those results really are, how to better quantify or qualify the results. And it’s not just about the 20 pounds. It’s about the way they feel in their skin. It’s about how they show up. It’s about how their life’s going to change. And you tell that story, but you tell it with the hero’s journey that they went through, if you will, the struggles and the epiphanies and the moments. People, people fall in love with that and they connect with it. And that’s how we, that’s what we want. We want to help people, you know, so as an entrepreneur, as a, as a small business owner, my goal is to help more people. And the reason that we do what we do, it’s like, I believe that entrepreneurs like us, all of us here and those of us listening, we got into this to help other people and make some money along the way. And I’m going to change the world by helping other people who are also going to change the world. We can’t do it alone, right? We have to do it through other people. 

And so I just, I know that this is the way to do it. And I’m passionate about it because, you know, it’s funny when I was, 17 years old, my best friend, Drew, who’s my business partner. We’ve been best friends since we’re about five, six years old. We joke about it like, you know, it’s the longest marriage that either of us has been able to sustain because we weren’t so successful in our actual marriages. But we were driving down the road in my 1985 Pontiac Trans Am. We called it Thunder Chicken. That’s a story for another time. But we had just gone to do something for his dad. He’d given us something to take to the bank and deposit a check. And they just wouldn’t let us deposit this check. and they made it so hard. And we were trying to give them money that would make them more money. And it was like roadblock, friction, friction, obstacle. No, no, no, no. And we just sat there and we’re like, why does this happen? Like, why do businesses make it so hard to do business with us? This is crazy. We had that epiphany then, and we had come up with this dream of a business called Making It Better. Like someday we were going to have a business called Making It Better. And actually, as we look at all the different businesses we’ve had and the different markets and the different things we’ve done, most of them have been really successful. We’ve had a couple of flops. But the theme, the through line of every single one of those businesses is that. It’s how do we make it better for our customers? How do we make it better for ourselves, for our families, for our employees? And I think when you look at things through that lens and you remove the friction, you reduce the obstacles to people having success, amazing things come out of that. 

And so I think today in this market, as you’re looking at your business, ask yourself that tough question. Am I making it hard for my customers to have success with me? And how do you find those friction points, those moments that are a little harder that I can either reduce them or remove them? And you’ll start seeing massive, massive improvements pretty much immediately.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve got a whole list of ways that I make it hard for people to do business with.

Jason Friedman: Don’t do it and don’t be so rough. Yeah, don’t be so rough. Just start just one at a time. Just start picking them off.

Rob Marsh: It’s amazing what’ll happen. We’ve got, yeah, we’ve got work to do. Okay. We’re going to run out of time, but I really would love to just quickly step through the kinetic customer formula, if you’re willing to share some of those steps that we can think through this on our own. And then obviously you’ve got some resources that we can share if people want to find out more, but tell us a little bit more about the formula.

Jason Friedman: Absolutely. I’m going to give you the quick 10 cent version, right? So there’s four key things that four factors. There’s attitudes, which are how people are thinking and expecting about your business. There’s behaviors, the things that they’re doing to get results. There’s friction, the things that are slowing them down or stopping them from achieving those goals, those goals with those results. And there’s momentum, how do we actually give them those extra boosts. And the combination of those four things are what we help people put into a very specific process to clean that up. 

So if you’re going to try and implement what we’re teaching and kind of think about it, literally start at the end, write that ideal customer script. What do you want that person to say and how would they share their journey and use your best copywriting skills? Make it juicy, paint pictures with the words that people are seeing that journey through the words that you write in that script. That’s the first thing. 

Then we’re gonna reverse engineer that. So we’re gonna look at like in order for them to get those results that say that script, what behaviors do they need to do? So if you’re designing it from scratch, you do that. If you’re not, the first thing you do is you look at your existing journey and you write out everything they do at every step along the way. When you do this exercise, critically important, you’re doing it from the vantage point of the customer, right? So for example, it’s not send them an email, it’s receive an email, right? See the nuance there. So it’s through the lens of the customer. map out everything they do from beginning to end, and then go deep on each one of those doings, right? So you’re asking, what are they thinking and expecting when they do that? Who are they interacting with when they do that? What are they using when they do that? And how are they feeling, most important? 

What you’ll start to see is you’ll start to see this rollercoaster ride of emotions that they go on. And so after you’ve done that, what I want you to do is go through and find the friction. Like, where is it hard? Where do they get stuck? And you’ll be able to easily identify that when you look at the tension that’s created between feelings and thinking and expecting, right? And I’m thinking, expecting one thing, but it’s not actually happening. Okay, there’s probably an expectation mismatch there, right? And so what we might have to do is go a couple steps back and set a different expectation, right? Or if they’re feeling unsure, they might need a momentum boost, or we’ll put another step in there, maybe that’ll help them feel more confident and understand what’s going to happen. Like we were saying about the difference between step three and step four of copywriting, if there’s a long lag, I’ve got to give some communication steps in there maybe. 

So you might add a few steps. That make sense? So you’re going to start to look at all those, map those out, go deep on each one. What are they doing? What are they thinking, expecting? What are they using? Who are they interacting with? And how are they feeling? And then once you’ve done that, like I said, find the friction points. And look at the ones that are going to remove the biggest obstacles. Take out the biggest obstacles first and go deep. There’s a lot of nuance to this. There’s a lot more steps. I know we don’t have a whole lot of time, but this will get you started and get you going in the right way. And pay special attention to the transitions. So look at your onboarding, that first transition. Like really make sure that you make it easy for people to get started. And make sure that as it gets harder, either the relationships get stronger so that it’s worth the fight, or that their skills are getting stronger, so that they’re able to do the harder work, whichever it happens to be for your business, right? If it’s always so easy, we’ll lose interest. Also, if it gets too hard, we’ll lose interest. It has to be in this, we call this the flow channel, where the degree of difficulty and the degree of effort and skill are increasing together in lockstep.

Rob Marsh: And I appreciate, too, what you said when we were just starting out talking, Jason, about looking at this journey, not just from the purchase, but from the very first engagement, because there’s a ton of things that happen between that first engagement and a purchase where we introduce friction or we’re not even thinking about a customer experience. So thinking through this process from day one, day zero, I’m about to meet you to result, I think could be really helpful.

Jason Friedman: I love that, Rob. And I would, I would even say, go back to day negative 180, like go backwards. And like, when someone’s having a problem, like, because if you, again, if you get into character, if you do what I say, like you kind of Matthew McConaughey here, right? If you get into that spot, you have to know what brought them to that day. right, where they started to learn and they started to go back further. The insights are tremendous. And you might actually build a customer for life just in your sales process at that point, because you can really connect with them on a much deeper level, and authentically deliver what they need, while selling them what they want in a way that’s so profound, that they really they just the reciprocity is just kind of baked in from the get go. So super powerful, really good point.

Kira Hug: There’s so many takeaways from this conversation. Just thinking about my onboarding, which I’ve been so proud of and thinking of new ways to evolve. It’s just a good reminder that there’s always more to learn and to improve. And even the testimonials you’re talking about. As copywriters, we can rewrite testimonials for clients, of course, get approvals, but we can create them as transformations rather than just these are the results. So I think that’s another power move for copywriters with their clients or for their own products. And so many other takeaways for anyone who wants more information from you, Jason, or wants to jump into a program or course. Where should they go to learn more?

Jason Friedman: Awesome. Thanks. You can definitely check us out at CXformula dot com. If you’d like to get a little bit more information about us, but I have a little present for your people. I’m going to use a copy technique. I’m not going to tell you what it is. I’m going to tease you. 

If you go to gift.cxformula.com/copyclub, there’s a PDF there. It will take you less than 10 minutes to go through. But it’s got a really killer strategy that is going to actually have you ask some different questions about your business and it will change the way you think in a very positive way. So I encourage you to read it. And then it will also give you some ways to like immediately, actionably implement this strategy in your business. 

I ask two favors. Favor one, if you download it, actually look at it. Like, I don’t want this to be shelfware that just sits on your computer hard drive and gets stale someday. So just take a look at it.

Rob Marsh: You know us so well, Jason.

Kira Hug: Yeah. I think you’ve been around for a while.

Rob Marsh: There’s that friction again, right there.

Jason Friedman: Not my first rodeo. So fight through the pain, it will be worth it. I promise you when you get to the other side, you’d be like, that was a really interesting question. I love this. And number two, I’m going to send you an email that gives you this thing. When you put in your information, if you use it or you like it, or you don’t like it, tell me what you think. I actually am very curious about how people are using this so that I can help more people. So that’s it. I know it’s going to be helpful. I know it’s pretty cool. Um, and, uh, I really would love to see how you’re using it.

Rob Marsh: I’m downloading it right now. I’m already intrigued by the title. Yeah. So I’m on it.

Jason Friedman: So did I do good in the copy?

Rob Marsh: Pretty good. Yeah. I might, I might send you a way or two to improve. No. It looks good. I’m just teasing.

This has been eye-opening, like the last time we talked. I just remember walking away thinking, holy crap, I’ve got so much work to do here. 

Jason Friedman: Don’t beat yourself up, just start fixing, because I think that’s the approach. 

Rob Marsh: And I just really appreciate the level of thought that you bring to the customer journey. And it’s something that way too many of us as service providers who just like to send our customers Google Docs, We don’t really think about that experience. And so there’s just a ton here that’s really valuable. Jason Friedman: Thank you for that. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it.

Kira Hug: Thanks, Jason.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Jason Friedman. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation. I don’t know if this is going to extend a lot of what Jason was talking about, but just some thoughts that occurred to me. 

At one point, Jason mentioned the idea that experience is not something that you do. It’s something the customer has. This is a really big idea in my opinion. A lot of copywriters who have worked in agency environments have the experience of working with clients on a level that’s really different from what most freelancers do. In the agency, you invite clients into the office oftentimes or you’ll go to their office to present oftentimes. There’s a lot of drama built into it. They serve lunch or drinks. If you’ve watched Mad Men, you’ve seen this yourself. They’ll show a video or they show all of the work and it’s all mounted on black boards and it’s very professional and feels very high touch, white glove kind of thing. But a lot of us as freelancers, we don’t ever even think about what that level of experience means to our clients. Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we need to be presenting over lunch or that everything needs to be fancy, but there’s something that happens in that client experience where they are being treated differently. They are sort of being wined and dined just a little bit that is worth emulating in the businesses that we have all built. So again, not saying you need to take your clients out to lunch in order to present, but maybe there’s something you can do that’s just a little bit different, that creates a slightly different experience. Maybe instead of presenting on plain Google Docs, you are presenting your work on branded documents of some kind, and you’re showing up obviously on video or in some other ways to present it. So you’re not just throwing a Google Doc over the fence and letting the client sort of figure it out on their own. If that’s not what you’re doing, there may be other things that we can do during the process to make that experience of working with us different, higher end, or just feel really good. It’s definitely something worth considering and thinking about as you consider how you work with your clients. 

Again, we start with that ideal customer testimonial, which is based on the transformation, not just the work that you do, but the results that you get and asking, where can you find these wins in the process? Is it during the initial interviews and on the sales call? Is it before that? Is it as you’re working with that call and going through your scorecard or your diagnostic process? Is it something that you’re doing with the research and presenting the research? Is it as you’re outlining and writing the drafts? Think about different ways that you can increase your customers’ experience or positive experiences throughout that process. 

Lastly, I just want to repeat that formula that we talked about with Jason because I think each of these four elements is really important when we talk about this customer experience. Number one, attitudes, the beliefs that they have, behaviors, what they do to get the results is number two. Friction, what’s slowing them down and causing them problems or making things hard for both you and for them. 

Finally, momentum, what keeps them going? What are the things that you can do to keep them excited about working with you? Of course, you’re doing all of this from the customer’s vantage point, not from ours. Oftentimes, when we think about customer experience, we look at it from what we’re doing and we are creating that experience. Going back to what Jason said earlier, it’s not something you do, it’s not something you create, it’s something the customer has and engineering that from their standpoint. 

Thanks to Jason Friedman for joining us to chat about client experiences and how to improve them. Make sure that you take advantage of his free giveaway at gift.cxformula.com/copyclub. I believe that’s all one word. I downloaded it. You should too. And when it arrives in your inbox, don’t let it gather dust.

 

Some people just get stuff done while others get to the end of the day, look back, and wonder what they did all day. On the 386th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob’s talk with brand builder, prolific content creator, and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda revealed her secrets for getting stuff done, creating fly wheels (instead of funnels) to keep moving readers to other parts of her business, and adding a thousand subscribers to her newsletter every month. She calls it realistic productivity—the kind you can do when you’re running your own business and have three kids—and you’ll want to hear how she does it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Life’s a Game (Amanda’s course)
Hypefury
Taplio
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Some people seem to have an other worldly ability to get stuff done. While the rest of us struggle through our daily to-do lists and often fail to check off more than one or two items, they post great, well-thought out content several times a day to social media, they create new products, regular emails, launch and promote courses, and maybe even crank out a few pages for the book they’re working on. 

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I sat down with brand builder, creator and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda is one of those people who just gets stuff done. She’s running three different content businesses, writing a book, taking on work as a part-time CMO and is launching a course in a couple of days. So how does she get it all done? We talked about the systems she uses to produce her weekly newsletters and daily social media content so that it all gets written in one day a month, plus an hour or two a week to schedule posts. And her system has helped her grow her newsletter by about 1000 new subscribers every month. If you produce content to support or grow your own business, you’re definitely going to want to hear what she has to say.

But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days.

Now, let’s jump to my discussion with Amanda.

Amanda, let’s get started with your story. You’ve done so many things, vice president marketing, CMO, you’re building three businesses. How did you get here?
Amanda Goetz: Oh, gosh. So where do I start? I grew up on a farm in Central Illinois. I’m a first generation college grad. And for me, my start was I graduated early from college because my accounting T.A. offered me a job at Ernst and Young. And I was still first semester of my senior year. And I was like, OK, I think I can graduate early if I take 18 hours. So I added a course. I graduated early. But my senior year of college, I took 18 hours of classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I got on a bus every Wednesday night. I went from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, up to Chicago. I worked at Ernst & Young in the Sears Tower in Chicago, Thursdays and Fridays. I studied all day Saturday, went back to my roommates on Sunday and did it all again. 

Rob Marsh: Wow, that’s nuts. 

Amanda Goetz: I definitely have found that just the way that I’m wired and I am open to pushing myself and seeing what I’m capable of. But through those years I also learned what burnout looks like and where my limits are. I worked at Ernst & Young for a few years. That took me from Chicago to New York, where I finally realized I needed to be more consumer-facing. I didn’t like the financial services. I went to go work for a celebrity wedding planner, which is kind of a whole funny chapter, but I learned so much about what it meant to have a personal brand. 

He had a reality TV show that we worked on. He had books, he had licensing deals. So that was kind of my first real mini CMO role. But also seeing the value of a personal brand up close and personal. So I did that for a few years. That also allowed me to travel the world, which was really cool because my parents have never been on an airplane. So It’s a hilarious upbringing. So I was like, I’m headed to Australia to go plan a Major League Baseball player’s 30th birthday. I’ll be back in two weeks. And it was just funny and a really cool chapter of my life. 

From there, I launched a tech startup with a co-founder that I met through some nonprofit work. Did that. That was kind of like my MBA. I was managing engineers. I was learning how to build a tech product. I was understanding what it meant to like, what does VC capital mean? And I did an accelerator program in New York City, where it really taught us, it’s called Startup Leadership Program, SLP. It’s a global program. And you really learn what it means to be like a founder. And from there, did that for a few years. And that got me to The Knot, where I led marketing. And I was kind of the first consumer marketing hire, because it was an editorial company. For anybody that knows The Knot, it’s a magazine. And we made it a two-sided marketplace. I was there for five and a half years, then the pandemic hit. 

I decided to launch another startup, which was a consumer facing startup, a CPG wellness company. We had actual physical goods. We had supplements, and sold that two years ago to kind of take a break and focus on stability and family and I took a VP of marketing job to just kind of like reset. I call it my spin cycle. Like everything felt really heavy. I needed to get all the water out. And then from there decided I wanted to write a book and kind of share all of this stuff that I had learned throughout my journey. I’m a single mom. I have three kids. I got divorced a couple of years before the pandemic. And now writing a book. I launched kind of this creator community, helping people really understand what it looks like to build an intentional personal brand with the goal of making money.

Rob Marsh: Nice. There’s a, there’s a lot of here and so much we can ask about before we go any farther, what you’re even doing today. I want to go back to the wedding planner days. What is the wildest, craziest experience that you had doing that job?

Amanda Goetz: Oh my gosh, that could be its own podcast. I have so many stories that I’m sure NDAs were probably signed at some point.

Rob Marsh: We won’t name names.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it was a lot of NFL,  NBA, NASCAR, like I’ve touched kind of all of them. I had one family who no wedding venue was good enough. So they said, build us one. And so I had to move to a town and build a wedding venue that they would later turn into a commercial wedding venue that they would make money off of. But the mom was such a savvy businesswoman. She was like, no, if I’m going to spend this much money, it’s going to be an investment that I will get a return on. And so I built a wedding venue.

Rob Marsh: Credit the mom, that’s a brilliant idea when you think of all the money that gets wasted on weddings. But yeah, that’s awesome. Okay, so you’ve got all of these experiences adding up to what you’re doing today. And if I’m not mistaken, you’re building three different businesses at the moment. Tell us a little bit about those.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I have kind of my main pillar, which is Life’s a Game. It’s all about success without burnout. So how do you play the game of life and manage your time and energy efficiently? So that is a newsletter. I don’t think of funnels anymore, I think in flywheels, because they should all feed each other. So I have a newsletter. I talk on social media about personal and professional growth. Then that feeds to my newsletter. If somebody wants to go further, I have a course that’s coming out in two days that takes you to that next level where it’s self-guided. It’s seven modules sharing everything I’ve learned about productivity, but realistic productivity. 

I’ve got three kids. A lot of productivity gurus out there are like a single dude that doesn’t have kids that’s like, here’s how to wake up at 5 a.m. and do these things. You’re like, I got a kid. Realistic productivity. and goal setting. So if somebody likes that and they want to go deeper, they can join my community. I do group coaching. We have over 100 people that meet biweekly, and we are in a Slack community, and some of those I even do one-on-one coaching with. So that’s kind of one pillar. 

Then I’ve got Break an Egg, which I started with Jack Appleby—a lot of people are not like the people listening to this podcast, right? They don’t know how to write on social media. And so we started a very, very inexpensive, it’s $5 a month, email list where subscribers get daily prompts to show up on LinkedIn. So it’s like, today, talk about a time in your career where you learned X, Y, and Z. And so they get that prompt. And now they know, OK, that’s what I’m going to share on social media today. And then they have a community. So that’s another business. 

And then I’ve got the book, which is kind of its own business, because it’s not necessarily related to the other two. And with the book, I I do speaking engagements and I go around. So that’s kind of its own pillar. 

And then I would say, like, I kind of have a fourth one, which is I’m still a fractional CMO and I still take on CMO work and helping people think about their branding. So, yeah, I kind of keep my hands in all those cookie jars.

Rob Marsh: Listening to you talk about it, it’s clear why Life’s a Game is focused on time management, energy management—all of that, because, as you mentioned, you’ve got a family, you’ve got a personal life, and managing literally four or five different businesses. That’s a lot.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like a lot because of the way I approach everything. But I recognize that when I say this, it sounds crazy.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, it sounds a little nuts. I do want to come back to those businesses. But if somebody is thinking, okay, I’m a writer, or I would love to start a business like what you have started, maybe something like Break an Egg, or even Life’s a Game where you’re talking about some of your experiences and how to do something, right? You’ve built a lot of this on social media and with newsletters. And this is something that as I’ve watched you build your businesses over the last year or so, I’m fascinated by how you’ve done it, how you show up constantly, especially at Twitter and LinkedIn. Will you just talk about your strategy there and what you’re doing and how you’ve grown as you’ve been posting there consistently?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I’ll get a little tactical here because I think it’s helpful. People like to talk in “macro” and it’s like, well, that sounds great. But like, what do you actually do? Let’s do that.

Rob Marsh: Tactics is great.

Amanda Goetz: OK, so at the start, I’m really thinking about what are my content pillars? So we’re all writers here. You’re thinking about what are the pillars that I’m talking about? And when you have those pillars created, Then you can figure out, OK, there’s all these different styles of writing a post. So say I’m going to talk about time management. Well, you can then list out. 

You could say how to do X by doing Y. That’s one type of post. I have a list of 10 types of posts. It’s like the contrarian take. Here’s the old way of doing something versus the new way of doing something. Anytime I write a post, I’m thinking about what are the eight ways that I can write this post. I call one a fortune cookie post. What’s the two-liner? summary of this thing. One’s a version of like story time. If I’m going to tell a story about how I burnt out, I’ll tell that story. But then I’m going to take that longer story and turn it into six or seven shorter things. Right. 

And to your point, the newsletter is usually the starting point. I write a long newsletter and then I chop that into eight or 10 different tweets. And I do the same thing, Twitter and LinkedIn. Sometimes I change it up one day, but you will see the same content on both. I don’t over-engineer that. And then I program that. On Sundays, I sit down for about an hour and a half in the morning before the kids are up, and I schedule that stuff out. And the cool thing is when you have one newsletter and you’re writing about, like, say that newsletter today was like the science of overwhelm—and what do I do when I feel overwhelmed about something? OK, I’m going to then chop that into eight tweets. But I’m not going to do that all in one week, because that would feel very redundant. So I’m going to space that out over the course of eight weeks. When you do that every week, all of a sudden, in a few weeks, you’ve got the full week already scheduled. And it’s kind of this wonderful compounding effect. And so I do sit down on Sundays. And that allows me on the day to day to not get time sucked into social media. 

I have two chunks of my day from eight to nine after I drop off the kids and I usually have a coffee and I’m relaxing and kind of transitioning back into work mode where I will engage with people. and then around noon. And those are usually the two times that my two more meatier posts go live. So I’m there to respond to people when they’re engaging with it. So it’s all very, very formulaic. 

I think people kind of feel deflated when they hear that because they’re like, oh, I thought everybody’s actually there thinking of this stuff. It’s like, no, the people who are there to drive a funnel or a flywheel, they’re making money. They have got a system in place where they are maximizing the time that they’re showing up. I don’t want to sit down at 8 a.m. and be like, well, what should I post today? Because that’s wasted energy.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, because I think the perception is, like you said, we see the tweets showing up four or five times a day, or on LinkedIn once or twice a day. We see the newsletter coming into our inboxes, and it feels like you’re ever-present. And which is intentional. And that’s good. That’s what you want people to think. But the fact that you’re letting the system run it, that’s like one of those behind-the-scene things that if we’re going to be serious about building that kind of a business—and I know a lot of people listening are—that’s the kind of thing that’s really, really helpful.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. You have to understand that this is why Life’s a Game is called Life’s a Game. Everyone that’s out there being successful has learned how to play the game. And it feels icky. It feels inauthentic. But the fact of the matter is, if you sit down every day to try to create a post, you’re going to overthink it. You’re going to sit there for longer. And that’s wasted time and energy. 

It’s funny, because even with the newsletter, when I first started it, It was June of last year. Each newsletter would take me about eight hours. So I would break it up. On Saturdays, I’d ideate. Sundays, I’d draft. Mondays, I would edit. Tuesdays, I’d add pictures. Wednesdays, I’d program and it would go live on Thursdays. After about five, six months of doing that, I started to find my rhythm. I understood the formula. Again, everything comes down to… once you have that formula of what works, you’re like, okay, cool. I’ve got this. 

Now I write all four newsletters one day a month. I block out the day, I write four, now that’s done. Now when you think about, okay, I have a newsletter and I’m showing up on social every day, that’s actually only one day a week and one day a month. Now I’ve got all this other time to do those other businesses that I’m working.

Rob Marsh: I love that. Let’s talk a little bit about the growth that you’ve seen as you’ve done this. Everybody starts at zero. We all look at the businesses that have thousands and thousands of followers, and I know you’re not yet at the quarter of a million or the millions, but you have had an amazing growth curve over the last few months.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. On social, it’s been interesting. I talk a lot about creator seasons. I was in creator winter for quite a while. And I want to just tell people that not everyone just looks like an overnight success. I was tweeting and posting for a very long time into the void. And eventually, you start to see these little upticks, and then that starts to build and compound. But with the newsletter, it’s been pretty steady of just slow, but up into the right growth. I started, obviously, with zero. I pre-launched it. I think I launched on the day when it went live. I had about 1,000 subscribers. I think now I just crossed 27,000. And so it’s like 1,000 a week. It’s slow and steady.

Rob Marsh: That’s great. And you’ve seen sort of the same thing with social media. Is that right? Or is that different?

Amanda Goetz: Social media is a different game. Like it’s truly you once you learn the rules of the game. So the number one thing that I teach people in my group coaching is about engagement circles. And this is the thing that like the successful people, they will not talk about, but like I am an open book and I’m like, I want everyone to know the rules of the game. And look, just because what I’m about to say sounds simple does not mean it’s easy. And people confuse those two things. 

Showing up every day and engaging on social media is not easy, but it’s simple. So what is an engagement circle? It is a group of people at a similar level—it’s like if you only have a thousand followers, find five other people that are around 2000 followers and say, hey, I’m going to show up every day at 8 a.m. and post. When do you show up every day? And I’m going to comment on your stuff. You’re going to comment on my stuff. And we’re going to show up for each other every day. I am on group texts with different creators. I’m in DM groups with different creators. I do it with my Office Hours community. We do it with Break an Egg community. Drop your post. Let other people know it’s there. You can’t expect the algorithm to do all the work. You have to show up. And the way that LinkedIn algorithm works is when you post, that first few minutes is when the algorithm is saying, is this a valuable post? If within the first few minutes of that post going live, say in the first 30 minutes, a lot of people start engaging with it and you’re commenting back, the algorithm’s like, oh, this creator’s there. That’s good. They want that. They want dialogue. And other people are commenting on this. This must mean that this is a valuable post. And so you just learn that trick, and it’s like, OK, hey, guys, I post every day at 8:15 AM. You show up at the same time, and we’re going to be there for each other.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, the timing thing. This is one of those lessons that I’ve learned, because I tend to post just kind of whenever it’s like, oh, I’ve got to get something up today. So sometimes it’s in the morning. Sometimes it’s in the afternoon. I’ve posted in the evening. And I have posted things that I thought were really good engagement stuff in the evening. and it’s flat because people aren’t there and it’s not until the morning that they start engaging and it’s a much slower build. So that timing is really important. Can I also ask, and I know it’s not about the tools, it’s never about the tools, but what are the tools that you’re using to post and make sure the stuff is showing up?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I use Hypefury for Twitter. The only thing about Hypefury that’s a little frustrating is you can’t schedule long form posts. So on Sundays, I literally will create a little postcard and I’ll make like a it’s like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And if I have a long form post that is in drafts on Twitter, I’ll have like a little like bird or like blue checkmark or something that’s like reminds me that that one isn’t going to publish automatically. I’ve got to go in and click send. But otherwise, anything else that’s a thread or a shorter post, that’s all through Hypefury. 

Then everything on LinkedIn is Taplio. And I’m actually I’m doing a webinar March 21st for Taplio, where I’m showing how I create a lot of content in a short amount of time. They have very cool AI tools that generate hooks for you. So you can put in your tweet or your post, the content, and it will generate a bunch of hooks for you. And that’s what I was talking about earlier, which is like, you should have one post served seven ways.

Rob Marsh: I love that. So as you were starting up these businesses, you left your previous work, was it a cold break or did you sort of start that slow build while you were still at Theknot thinking, okay, I know what I’m going to be doing. I need to build some runway for myself.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So this creator business is different than House of Wise, which was a VC backed company. That one was different because it was middle of COVID. I started working on it kind of nights and weekends because I wanted to do the development and understand who my customer was going to be and who was going to make the product and where was I going to source the ingredients from. That was a slow build. Basically, I raised $400,000 pre-seed while I had a full-time job at The Knot. My boss knew about it. I was transparent about it. I said, I’m doing it nights and weekends, but I’m going to start talking about what I’m doing. Okay, that was fine. 

When it started to become not okay was when I felt my energy shift and that the House of Wise needed more of me. And so that was when I was like, I got to figure this out. So lucky enough, because of Twitter and LinkedIn, I saw somebody posting about like, they needed a marketer. And I was like, Hey, I think if you want a fractional CMO, I could probably do 20 hours a week with you so I could give half of my time to House of Wise. And that worked out perfectly. 

So I, left my full-time job, took on a fractional CMO role, helped build that brand while I was still building my company. And it wasn’t until I raised the $2 million seed and we were driving real revenue that I was like, okay, I can now let everything else go and do this. 

Now, fast forward to my creator, this new era of my life. I was in a position, and honestly, it was a forcing function situation. I was in a position where I was not happy. I did not love the setup, the culture. And sometimes it takes a bad situation for you to be like, I’ve got to leave and I have nothing. And I remember one particularly hard day, I shut my computer and I looked at my partner and I was like, I think I need to quit. And I’m like, this is really not you know, from an energy standpoint and an alignment standpoint, I’m not there. So we talked through it and he was like, do you know what you want to do? And I was like, no, but I think I’ll figure it out. And so sometimes the scariest things are like removing your safety net. But when I tell you I have never worked harder or with more intention than I did the three months following where I was like, I’ve got to figure out how I’m making money. And so those next three months of me figuring out how to monetize my audience was like real.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, OK. Yeah, I mean, this is something I think that a lot of us experienced as copywriters. It’s like, hey, we leave the in-house job. Or sometimes it’s not voluntary. There’s a layoff that happens. An agency loses a client or whatever. And not having the safety net forces you to get serious. very fast. 

I’ve also been in situations, in fact, I was in a startup with four partners, we all had other jobs. And so we were kind of doing it on the side. And we could never get the traction because we were all safe doing—it was like we could play.

Amanda Goetz: That was my first startup, same thing.

Rob Marsh: We could play and build stuff. And it’s like, well, yeah, we’ll get a client. But we don’t need it because every one of us had that runway. Or actually, it was more than runway. We had a total safety net. Yeah. And so it never got traction, unfortunately, because I still think it’s a great idea. But we were just the wrong team to build it. So as you do all of this stuff, you mentioned earlier, at one point, you burned out doing some of the other stuff. I mean, listening to you, I said three jobs. You really have five jobs, as we were talking about earlier. What are you doing to avoid burnout this time?

Amanda Goetz: I’m very intentional about what my boundaries are. Like I said, I have turned down many clients. I’ve turned down many meetings. I’ve turned down many podcasts. I am very, very intentional about what I’m saying yes to. The shift is like, look, in your 20s and early 30s, like I’m in my late 30s now, it’s like, you have to say yes to opportunities because you never know. You have to increase that luck surface area. And I would not be in the position I am today had I not put myself in scenarios and situations and went to events and put myself at the tables of the people that kind of are now just like in my life. 

But now I’m very intentional about the level of effort something takes and the level of impact it has towards my goal. And right now I’m very clear on my goals. And this is what I teach in the course, which is everything starts with, what do you see for your life in this current season? What do you want? Are you pushing in your career? And that’s OK if you are. But for how long are you willing to allow that to go? OK, for the next one to two years, you’re pushing in your career. Great. Well, then you need to stop and take inventory and say, are you still good with that a year in? And do you need to shift? Does somebody need to go on the front burner or back burner? 

Start with your goal and then align your actions towards that goal. And I talk a lot about where does weak boundaries come from, like meaning you’re saying yes to people’s meetings or saying yes to things that aren’t in alignment? Well, it comes from people-pleasing, right? And where does people-pleasing come from? A need for validation and affirmation and a low self-worth. And so really, the shortest answer to your question is that I’ve done a lot of the inner work stuff to fix those things that actually lead to those weak boundaries. Because once I know my worth and that I deserve to achieve the goals that I’ve set, now I’m in a whole different headspace to say, well, no, my goal is just as important as your goal. And I’m going to work towards mine just as much as I’m going to work towards yours. And that is the shift that I think needed to happen for me.

Rob Marsh: You mentioned the tension between effort and impact. Will you talk a little bit more about that? Maybe even give us a specific example of how that shows up.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. Look, I could put on my CMO hat right now and talk about like, oh, someone wants us to do a campaign with this landing page and, you know, all this copy and all this stuff. Like, it sounds really cool. OK, well, my first question is, let’s look at the level of effort and the level of impact I have. 100,000 people follow me on Twitter, and if I can get 10% of them to drive to this landing page, what’s the typical conversion of a landing page? Okay, now I get them to a site. What’s the typical conversion from that site? Okay, boil that down, back of the napkin math, I might have 50 people that purchase this thing. Is that the good use of my time? Or should I focus on this thing where I can drive them directly to the newsletter and the newsletter I know has a different funnel? So I think about everything in that way. Like, does this meeting that somebody wants me to take, what is the level of effort and what’s the level of impact towards my goals? And if it’s not high, like every, I love doing this every Friday afternoon, is my email day. That’s when I actually go through all of my emails, because I don’t email such a time suck. 

I do not let email control me. I keep it closed most of the day. Friday afternoons, when I look at my calendar for the next week and I say, okay, I said yes to all these things. What am I going to remove? What is truly not in alignment with what my goal is for next week? My goal is to write three chapters next week. Do I have enough space to actually do that? And if I don’t, guess what? Other people can wait because it’s my time. And those are the things I think about.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Okay, we’ve talked about your book a couple of times. And I, before we started recording, I told you, I have struggled to get out my, you know, book idea, you know, it’s on 30 different documents on my hard drive or whatever. Let’s talk about the process of writing a book. And specifically, what are you writing about? Who’s it for that kind of thing?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So process wise, I approach it like everything that I approach. It’s, it’s, It’s like, oh, I want to write a book. That is a big, scary, meaty goal, right? What’s less intimidating? Writing 500 words. Like, that’s just, I can write 500 words in a sitting and not even think twice about that. So every day, like you can see, Tuesday, this is my Tuesday, 1,000 words, okay? That’s manageable. And so I just, I have taken this big, hairy thing and just broken it up. I call it KitKat strategy. I just take big things and I break them up into a million pieces and I do one a day. With the book, I mean, my partner tells this story about the first time we ever met, I said, I really want to write a book before I’m 40. That was like a thing. I said it, I was probably trying to sound really cool. I don’t know. I had no idea what I was going to write about, but one, I put it out there. And that’s the thing that I want to share is accountability and putting your dreams out there. It sounds woo-woo. It sounds a little hippy-dippy, but it truly does hold yourself accountable. 

There’s a scientific study that says having a goal, making a plan towards your goal gets you like 35% of the way towards your goal. Telling people that you have that goal takes it up to like 55%. And then making accountability partners takes you up to like 85, 90% when you have those checkpoints. And that, so for me, I’m going to let this kind of fester in my head now. I want to do this. I just made more time to think about what I wanted to write about. And then one day I remember I just had this idea and I sat down and I wrote the proposal in one day. I was like, I think I like this, like it’s giving me a ton of energy and I really want to feel like this is an important message to share. 

Then I said, OK, well, what’s the next step? I need to get an agent. OK, cool. I have enough author friends in my circles that I was like, I think I want to write a book. Are you open to introducing me to your agent? And a lot of my friends are still debut authors, their first time help. So their agents are right in that wheelhouse. I’m not trying to go after Jay Shetty’s agent. And so went to New York, met with them. three agents that week and got offers from all three and so secured that. And then I was like, oh, now I have even more accountability. Like this person believes in me and now I have to write this proposal because the proposal I turned in, I didn’t know what I was doing. It was just like, you know, two sheets of paper was like, here’s my idea. Do you like it? And then she was like, okay, Now we got to turn this into what are the chapters? What are the summaries for every chapter? What is the connective tissue of this thing? And that took me like six months. Like that was like real work. And what I started writing was not what I ended writing is the funniest part. 

What I thought the book was going to be about ended up being a component of it, but it took on a whole other kind of life of its own. And so now I’m in. The coolest thing is once you have a very structured outline like that with the summaries, I right now and my editor has told me that I am going at a speed that’s not normal. So I’m very aware of this. But. I basically have said every chapter is about 5000 words. That means I’m going to write 1,000 words a day every week, Monday through Friday, so I’ll have a chapter done a week. My book is 13 chapters, so 13 weeks, and the book is done. In my head, it just seems so simple. Now, as I’ve gone through this process, I’ve learned, okay, some days I’m not feeling creatively energized. Some days the kids need me more. All in all, I started it in December. I’ll turn in the manuscript by the end of May. And it’s been a six-month process of now writing the book. So all in, six months of proposal, six months of the book. It’s a year of writing. But I’ve been very intentional about it. I’ve said, this is when I’m doing this. This is the date I’m doing it by. So you just have to kind of give the thing life.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, and you decided to traditionally publish as opposed to self-publish. How come?

Amanda Goetz: I did. This was a tough decision for me because, one, it’s not a sure thing to go after a traditional publisher. And there’s fear of rejection. And truly, I think if I would have gone that route and I wouldn’t have gotten a deal, I probably wouldn’t write it because I think I would have gotten in my head of, well, this isn’t good. 

The way that I looked at it and the decision I had to make was, is it a means to the end or an end? Am I writing the book because I want to sell this book and I want to make money from the book and that’s this? Or is it a means to the end where the book sparks a message and a movement that I get to go then speak around and potentially do a podcast around and build more and more and have it turn into the next book. And for me, where I’m at in my life and when I stepped away from it all and really did some of those exercises I put in the course, It was the second. It was the means to the end. I want this to be the beginning of a conversation and the beginning of this next chapter of my career. So with that, a traditional publisher, I’m not going to make money. 

Making money from a traditional publisher, you’re not in it for the money. I would make so much more money self-publishing this book. But it’s going to get the message out there. And then I’ll have a publicity team that can then put me on stages and I can talk about it. I’m going through keynote speaker training. I’m doing all the things. So you have to understand, is it the end or the means to the end? I think then aligning the path accordingly.

Rob Marsh: And as you are thinking this out, how does that change the rest of the flywheel, as we mentioned earlier, and how everything feeds into everything else? Does the business evolve into something different or is it, again, a continuation of what you’re doing right now?

Amanda Goetz: I think it would be a continuation. I love people. I love being around people. I didn’t realize how much having a community is like my passion and superpower. I love bringing people together and having them. That biweekly coaching and fostering that, it really lights me up. I don’t see anything changing with that. With everything else, it’s not a huge time suck. I’ve got the newsletter down. I’ve got to show up on social. I think that this is just now adding another piece to the puzzle, but they all kind of connect.

Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about your course, because this is coming out in a couple of days. And I’ve been lucky enough to see a little bit behind the scenes. I haven’t gone through every single module, but I’ve been through a lot of the internal work stuff. Tell us why you created it, what’s the purpose, and who’s it best for?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so it’s called Life’s a Game, the Master Class. So anybody that’s been following my newsletter, they’ve got a sense of what it’s going to be. But a lot of productivity courses are all around the external factors. Like, OK, you’re struggling with procrastination or focus, or how do you approach a to-do list? What’s a second brain? How do you use that? OK, those are all important things. But what I’ve found is I’ve done about a decade of coaching with Harvard-trained coaches and cognitive behavioral therapists. And what I’ve learned and what we talked about a little earlier is, My clicks into my flow state and success and taking up space in my own life happened when I did the internal work. And so this course at its highest level is helping you master time, energy, and ambition, but it’s by doing so through a lot of first introspection. 

So I say, you know, we are all wired based on previous programming. Like if you think about our brain as a software system, your childhood programmed it, your relationship with your parents programmed it, past relationships programmed it, you have this programming. And if you’re going to install new software, meaning you’re going to change your patterns, change your behaviors, you have to look at the source code and understand where you need to change the coding. So That’s what’s different about this course is every module, whether it’s talking about limiting beliefs, where do those come from? What do you have? And then how do you reprogram it? And if we’re talking about time management, it’s like, okay, where does your procrastination or lack of focus come from? Let’s get curious about that source code. And then now you’ve got a fertile ground for reprogramming and building new skill sets because it’s really, really hard to add on something new when you haven’t created the space for it.

Rob Marsh: And then once you’ve fixed the inner, then you go deeper on how to get straight with the outer in the course as well.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. So every, every module has what I call the IDEA framework. It goes introspection, decoding, then you do an exercise and then application. And so you really move through that internal to external in every single module.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. And there’s lots of exercises. I think I shared with you, I was going through it as quick as I could. So I was skipping some of the exercises that I now have to go back and really think through. But it’s that kind of thing that, again, if we want to build a business like what you’ve done, this is really the model that you followed as you’ve done all of the things that you’re doing.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it really is. People want the quick fix. They’re looking for someone to say, post this thing and you’ll go viral. Do this and you’ll unlock money. And it’s really the culmination of all these little things that add up to those things. And so if you put in the work and do these exercises, you are now setting yourself up to take it to another level. And so that’s, that’s the thing that I get really pumped about. And I made it, you know, it’s, it obviously took me months of work to make it, but compared to, I made it about like half the price of everything else that’s on there, because a lot of people who follow me are like, you know, moms or people doing side hustles. And they’re like, I believe that this stuff should be accessible to people.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. OK, so that brings up another question. You are very driven. You have had some pretty amazing experiences. You know, if somebody’s listening to your story and thinking, oh, I’d love to have a business like Amanda, can anybody do it? Or do you really need something extra to push you to accomplish this kind of a thing?

Amanda Goetz: I believe anyone can do this idea of… I have a goal… And I want to achieve that goal. And I’m going to make a chronological series of steps to get to that goal. And not everybody wants to be like me. And look. I have friends that are literally like, I don’t want your life. You are going hard every day. You’re showing up. You’re doing this. Not everybody’s wired like me, nor should they. But if somebody sees all these things that I’m doing and they’re like, I want to get there, then my biggest piece of advice is you’ve got to figure out how to build sustainable momentum because if you what happens is what I see with really ambitious people is we pendulum swing. We go really hard and then we burn out. And then we’re like, I can’t do anything. And so now you’re over here for a while and then you muster up the strength and you’re like, OK, now I’m ready to go back. And then you swing over and you’re going 100 miles per hour again.

And so my thing has been I steadily go a little above the speed limit, but like consistently. I don’t ever allow myself to pick up too much speed because I know I’ll break down. So I’m really, really focused on helping people stay in this like going above the speed limit, but you’re not going to break down like you’re pushing, but you’re also resting. And I have lots of frameworks for how I incorporate rest in my day. I’m done working every day at 3 p.m. I don’t work after 3 p.m. Like I have these guardrails where I’m taking care of myself so I don’t break down.

Rob Marsh: It feels like that ties back to the idea you mentioned earlier, funnels versus flywheels. Funnels tend to require launches and big bursts of energy versus the flywheel, which takes a lot of energy to get spinning. But once it’s going.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. The coolest thing about what I’ve done over the last six years or six months with this new world of being a content creator and driving to products and services is that it was a lot of work up front, like to make this course a lot of work, to build a membership community and get all of the pieces in place and the emails that trigger at the right time, like that’s a lot of work and investment in time and energy and money because like some of that stuff I need somebody else to help me with. 

And so I had to hire somebody to kind of help me with some of the triggers, but it’s like, Okay, now that’s going, I have steady recurring revenue coming in that is now I spend an hour a day with the community. What took me, you know, 40 hours a week for a few months now is one hour a day and I’m making the same amount of money. So understanding that, like same with the newsletter, a lot of effort upfront, made no money, had no sponsors. Now I make about 10K a month in sponsorships for the newsletter. Okay, great. That’s one day a month to make 10K. So these are the things that you have to understand in this whole creator world is it’s a lot of energy up front. 

And most people, if you’ve ever seen that meme, like somebody shoveling And it’s like the pot of gold is like on the other side of the wall. And the only difference is the person who got tired up here, they kept going. And the person that got tired here was like, it’s never going to happen. They walked away. Both have the gold behind the wall. It’s just when you get tired, you kind of have to know, I’m doing this for a reason and you keep going. But most people kind of stop. And the people that you see, the only difference is they just kept going and kept showing up.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. If you could go back and talk to college student, Amanda, who’s flying to Chicago to work, you know, two days a week, busting her hump, you know, through the weekend and give her some advice that would help her, I don’t know, accomplish this faster, do it a little bit differently, maybe avoid a mistake. What would you tell her?

Amanda Goetz: I don’t believe in mistakes and regret. I believe that I had to learn all the lessons. I had to learn to get to where I am. Look, I got married when I was 21. I had kids young, but I don’t I think I would just go back to tell her, like, you are going to be strong and you’re going to get through everything that comes your way. And you’re just going to keep getting stronger. So just know and trust it, that you are totally capable of handling everything that’s going to come your way.

Rob Marsh: Amazing. OK, the course comes out in a couple of days. We have a link that we’ll link to in our show notes. It’s the shortcut will be thecopywriterclub.com/amanda. If you want to check out Amanda’s course. Thanks for being here, Amanda, sharing so much of your journey. I’m a fan. And so this has been a lot of fun just chatting with you about how you’ve built your business over the last few months.

Amanda Goetz: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Rob Marsh: Okay. That’s the end of our discussion or the discussion between Amanda and myself. There are so many good ideas that got mentioned in this discussion that we really didn’t have enough time to jump into. And I want to touch on a couple of those and add to what Amanda shared. 

One thing that she mentioned, and I wish we had had some more time to talk about this, but Amanda talked about expanding the luck surface area. This is an idea that I love, but we didn’t actually specify how exactly you do this. We talked a little bit about saying yes to more things, but in order to expand the surface area for your lock, really what you’re trying to do is get exposed or seen by more people. having more opportunities to talk to more people, create more connections, to create more relationships, opportunities to have people see the things that you do. And so in order to do that, you need to make more offers. Or if you’ve only got one or two things, you need to make those offers in more different ways so that people can be exposed to them, they can see them. You need to create more products and services. 

We talked with Josh Long just a couple of weeks ago on making bite-sized offers that clients can say yes to and how to reach out to those clients who are maybe pulling back on their marketing budgets just a little bit in order to find ways to connect with them and let them see how you can help them. Expanding the luck surface area means making more connections, connections with potential clients, other prospects, with copywriters, with content writers, with marketers, with other people who are building businesses like you. Expanding the luck surface area oftentimes means joining a community where you can make those connections. There are free communities like our free Facebook group, the Copywriter Club. But there are also paid communities. Obviously, I’m partial to the Copywriter Underground. That’s the one that we talk about a lot. But these are places where you can make connections with other people who are investing in their businesses right now. They’ve got a reason to go in, to engage, to learn. So paid communities can be one of the very best ways to expand that luck surface area. 

You also want to be talking about the problems you solve. You want to be talking about it on social media and in newsletters and on stages, in guest posts, on podcasts, wherever you can show up and share both the problem you solve and the person that you solve it for. The more you can do that, the better. You know, we talked about three weeks ago with Joanna Wiebe on the podcast, and she mentioned the daily non-negotiables. These are the things that you want to make part of your daily non-negotiables. Now it sounds like a lot, but a system can make it doable. 

So go back back and listen to what Amanda shared about her system for creating a month’s worth of content with a single day’s worth of work, because creating systems like that will help you increase your luck surface area so that you can make more connections and have more opportunities for things to go right in your business. 

One other thing that I want to touch on is that funnel versus flywheel idea. I really like this idea. It’s a great reframe of the work that we do. Most of the activities that we do each day or each work should feed the rest of the machine that we’re building. And oftentimes when we’re working on funnels and launches, we go all in on one thing and then we shift our focus to going all in on another thing. All of those activities that I just mentioned that you need to be doing to increase the luck surface area in your business, if you do them right, you’re getting attention where it does the most good and it connects prospects and readers to your other content, to your products and to your services, rather than launching and focusing on one thing at a time. You’re now building and growing everything together. 

This reinforces the connections between all the things that you do. It might take some reflection in your business to figure out, are the things that I’m doing connected in some way that makes sense? If they’re not, maybe change up your offer just a little bit or find ways to create those connections. 

This reminds me just a little bit of the Ascension model. We talked a bit about this with James Wedmore a long time ago, episode 25 of the podcast, but it’s basically building in services and products in your business that lay on top of each other and serve each other so that people can move through the different offers that you have and fix the different problems in their businesses that they’re dealing with at different times. It might be worth going back to listen to what James had to share if you’re interested in this idea. And you can find that in episode 25 of this podcast. 

Okay. I want to say thanks again to Amanda Getz for joining me to go so deep on her business, on content creation systems, and so much more. We talked a lot about her new course, Life’s a Game, The Masterclass. If you’re interested in checking that out, go to thecopyrighterclub.com/amanda, That’s an affiliate link. 

The course doesn’t go live for another two days if you’re listening to the day that this podcast goes live. But if you’re talking about, you know, after Thursday, I think March 14th, then you want to go visit copyrighterclub.com/amanda and just check it out. 

And if you use that link to sign up, you’re going to be supporting this podcast and helping us bring you more amazing guests like Amanda. 

Now, if you’ve enjoyed this show, I’d really love to hear your thoughts. And of course, I’d love it if you’d leave a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. But additionally, after we finished recording, Amanda offered to come back and do a training for the Copywriter Club. And if that’s interesting to you, drop me an email at [email protected] to let me know that you’d like to hear more from Amanda and even what you might want her to talk about and share. And yeah, that is my real email address. So you can send it directly to me there. 

Obviously, there’s a lot that we can learn from Amanda, and I’m looking forward to having her come back and teach us even more. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast.

 

Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about. But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days. Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say… Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let's kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you? Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we're seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we're like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here. Rob Marsh: So for anybody who's not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let's just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it? Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there's two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we're never all going to agree.