On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Samantha Bonizzi shares her deeply personal journey through pregnancy loss, the challenges of trying to conceive, and the emotional rollercoaster of navigating IVF. She emphasizes the importance of community, support, and mental health resources during such a difficult time. Samantha also discusses her motivation for co-authoring a book that shares stories of fertility loss and hope, aiming to help others feel less alone in their experiences. Samantha highlights the significance of self-care, therapy, and trusting one's intuition throughout the journey to motherhood.     About Samantha:   Samantha is a writer with a background in public relations and communications. She spent her early career working in PR for lifestyle brands and has since transitioned to a corporate internal communications role at a tech company.    She grew up in New Jersey, where she’s lived most of her life (besides a brief stint in New York City), and now resides just outside Montclair with her husband and mini bernedoodle. She loves the area and has written several stories about things to do and places to go for a local lifestyle website, The Montclair Girl. She also loves reading, working out and doing yoga, hiking and being outdoors, and traveling.    Samantha has always had a passion for wellness and women’s health, which has taken center stage in her life since experiencing pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. Now, she wants to pay what she's learned forward and is on a mission to help women who find themselves on similar paths.   IG: @sam.bonizzi  IG: @thelosseswekeep  Website: https://samantha-bonizzi-bookshop.square.site       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!    Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:02) Thank you so much for having me. Excited to chat with you today.   Michelle (00:05) Me too. So excited to chat with you and I've worked with you before and I'm excited to have you on and super excited that you co-authored this book. And I would love for the listeners to hear your journey and really what inspired you to share your story with others.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:26) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to take a bunch of steps back and kind of share what led me to this point, I guess to start, know, we, my husband and I wanted to start a family. And so like most of our generation, you know, I was on birth control for 12 years and in talking to my doctor about, you know, starting to try.   It was as simple as, know, get off birth control, start trying and see what happens. It should happen pretty quickly if you're lucky. So that's exactly what we did. Sure enough, we were pregnant within a few months of trying, which we were, you know, very excited about, of course, and, you know, just thought we were lucky in that it happened to us so quickly. We   You know, initially, I've kept the news to ourselves for the first eight or nine weeks. And at that point, things had been going well when we went in for our first initial appointments. You know, we saw the heartbeat. The doctor said everything was looking good. The first big milestone, of course, is that 12, 13 week appointment when you go in for the genetic testing. And, you know,   Like I said, up until this point, we at first were being pretty discreet with the news, but we did start to share with close family and friends. We weren't shouting it from the rooftops yet, but we definitely, you know, we were excited. And so we started to tell some of our immediate circle. and so we went in for that appointment, pretty naive. think, we, I had, of course, as a woman, you're familiar with the fact that miscarriages can happen.   My mom had even had two miscarriages during her, after she had me before my brother. But it wasn't something that we really talked about. And it wasn't anything even in my immediate circle in terms of friends or close family members, anything that they had gone through. So I was pretty naive going in. I think we went into that appointment.   excited to just be in an ultrasound and see the baby. It had been five weeks, I think, since I had been in for an appointment. So we were just, you know, excited to see the baby. And even when the nurse was doing the initial ultrasound, the baby came up on the screen. We were like, we didn't notice anything was wrong. We were just like very excited. And then all of sudden we did notice that the technician went quiet. You know,   Michelle (03:07) Mm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:16) she was kind of dynamic with us in the beginning when we first came in and then all of a sudden her her demeanor changed right away. And then at that point she left to go get the doctor. The doctor came in and simply told us that we didn't have a viable pregnancy. And it was it wasn't our doctor because it was like this genetic doctor that was doing this particular scan for us. So luckily our doctor was in   Michelle (03:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:45) the same building. So we're able to be like ushered into see the doctor right away and kind of walk through what our next steps would be. But we were just very shocked. We were not expecting that to happen, especially, you know, getting up until that 13 week mark is where we were at. So we kind of felt like and I think also I didn't understand the concept of a missed miscarriage, which is what happened to us.   Michelle (03:51) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:14) When I thought of a miscarriage before, assumed it was something that happened where you started to bleed and it happened at home and you know clearly like you are having a miscarriage. So when I went in there and they told me we didn't have a viable pregnancy, I didn't know what that meant, how that happened, why that happened. So it was all very shocking, I would say. So it was at that point, we talked to our doctor, he recommended having a DNC.   Michelle (04:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:42) which is what we did a few days later and you know, you go into the hospital and that was my first time in that hospital where I thought we would be delivering our baby and then you have to go in there and remove the baby. so that was really, I guess, a surreal moment. and you know, to be frank, like the DNC procedure is pretty quick and painless and you wake up and you're just, the baby's gone. It's not.   Michelle (04:53) Wow, yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (05:10) inside of you anymore. And you're just kind of left unsure of what to do next. They don't really provide you with any resources. They just send you on your way. And in talking with my doctor, he was like, you know, we'll follow up with the results. Like that's part of the reason we did the DNC so that they could test the tissue to kind of confirm because they had he had projected it was likely a chromosome issue. But they wanted to make sure of that. So   said they would follow up in a few weeks. And in terms of like getting pregnant again, it was really like, you could start trying as soon as you get your next period. It's up to you in terms of when you're emotionally ready. Like, well, how am going to know if I'm emotionally ready? Like, this is such a shock to the system. So, you know, I think at that point I was shook for sure. And like I said, I didn't have anybody in my   Michelle (05:54) Yeah. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (06:06) immediate circle who had been through anything like that. So I kind of didn't know where to turn. At the same time, I didn't really go out and seek a lot of resources because I felt like, you know, the way the doctor described it, it was something that could happen to anybody. It was a spontaneous thing. You know, it's not an indication of there being a problem with you being able to hold on to a pregnancy. So just try again.   And so I think I was just determined, you know, I'm a very, I have a very, I think, know, type a personality where I'm like, okay, let's just like get it done. Let's keep trying. We can do this. And so I was sad, of course, but I was also at the same time, like so determined to just make it work the next time. And so we did really jump into trying again right away. And I think we were pregnant three months later.   Michelle (06:44) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:05) and you know, I think when you deal with a pregnancy after loss, you're robbed of a lot of things. there's no longer like an immediate joy of a positive pregnancy test because it's like quickly followed with fear and anxiety. It's the same thing can happen to you, you know, going, going into an ultrasound is scary because especially if that's where you found out about your miscarriage, there's a sphere that you're going to receive the same news.   Michelle (07:29) Bye.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:34) And, you know, all those things were definitely building up in my head when we found out we were pregnant. At the same time, I just felt like surely it wouldn't happen to us again. You know, I was sure that we had paid our dues and like this was something that just randomly happened to us the first time and that we would be okay. And even as the doctor, you know, he had flagged   a few concerns, things like the fetal heart rate and the size of the sac and those types of things. And he of just had us continue to come back every two weeks to kind of check on those markers. But I still was like, no, this is gonna work. And so when he told us eight weeks that it would again wasn't a viable pregnancy, I think I was even almost more shocked.   Michelle (08:13) you   Well.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:28) than the first time and you would think that, okay, you've been through this, you know how to deal. It wasn't like that because after the second one, it was almost worse because the realization set in that this wasn't just a spontaneous thing that happened to us. Like to have these miscarriages back to back, I felt like, okay, something must be wrong. Either I've done something to deserve this and I'm being punished or something is wrong with us where this isn't working.   Michelle (08:32) Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:55) I think especially being in that short time window too. And when you see everyone around you, like I had all my friends were having babies at that time and it worked for them. Why isn't it working for us? So it was again a shock. I think at that point I told myself we need to slow down. We need to kind of understand if   there is an underlying issue we need to kind of reassess before we just jump into trying again. And I don't know if that's, I don't know exactly what led from the first to the second. And if we did try too soon, I'll never know how those answers, but I just felt like we had to slow down and just reassess what was happening. So at that point, I, you know, I started to go to a fertility clinic, started to have all the testing.   that they recommend for recurring pregnancy loss. And that took a few months. And through all of that, they said everything seems to be fine. It's likely due to poor egg quality or bad luck that this happened, which is on one hand reassuring because when there's not a glaring issue, you at least know, okay, well, this is, you know, there's not something, you know, glaring that's   preventing this from happening. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's bad luck, then why is this happening? And that's actually the title of my chapter is, if nothing is wrong, then how do we fix it? Which is how I felt. You're telling me nothing's wrong, well then what is our path forward? And really it was left unclear. It was, you could do IVF and potentially reduce your risk of miscarriage because you could do things like,   Michelle (10:30) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (10:46) you know, the genetic testing and everything where you have more of a chance of having a healthy embryo. But that's not a guarantee. Or if you feel more comfortable trying it naturally, you can do that. And so there was this sort of leaning recommendation towards IVF. But then you're like, well, this is a fertility clinic. Do they just want me to do the IVF? Is this really what's best for us? So   Michelle (10:53) Right.   Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (11:11) In hearing all that, you you kind of go through, at least for me, I went through sort of a spiral of guilt around, again, why was this happening? If there isn't a, if there isn't a medical reason, what is the reason, you know, kind of searching for answers in all of it? So you, you know, I definitely went through spirals of why me. And I think what helped at that point was just like hearing other people's stories.   And it really took a lot of effort for me to find those people to connect with on the topic who had been through it. Like I said, I didn't have anybody I knew personally who had been through it, at least on a close knit level. So it was like taking to social media and being connected through friends to other women who had been through something similar and who came out on the other side.   Michelle (11:50) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:09) And I think that was what was most helpful. I did support groups as well. And I think that was also helpful in just having those regular touch points with people who are going through the same thing that you're going through and just got it. So I think between those two things, that, that really helps with those negative spirals of emotion that I was feeling. you know, in considering IVF, which was a big decision,   Michelle (12:09) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:38) It was talking to people who had done IVF and really understanding the process from them that sort of gave me the push to give it a shot. think ultimately it came down to just what I thought best in my gut for us, like in talking to my husband about it. And we felt like it was the right call for us. But again, it was a very hard decision.   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:09) I think, yeah, it was tough, but we ultimately decided to go through with the IVF. And I'm very grateful that we did because we were lucky enough where we had a successful retrieval and a successful transfer. And I'm currently nine months pregnant. So that's kind of where I'm at in a nutshell. And what led me to the book,   Michelle (13:30) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:37) I had been connected, the lead author, her name is Jamie Christ. She was somebody I was connected to through my cousin who actually lives in Miami. And when I was in Miami visiting her, my cousin, that's when I wanted to see you and I was going through the fertility treatment. But my cousin connected me with Jamie as one of those women who had been through something similar to what I was going through to kind of talk through different.   Michelle (13:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:04) aspects of the journey and resources and things of that nature. And so we kind of just kept in touch and then she was looking for authors to join her on this anthology project that she was working on. And I decided at the time I hadn't found out I was pregnant. I didn't even find out I was pregnant yet. I was just about to transfer when I decided to do it. But it was something, you know, during my journey   Michelle (14:28) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:34) I had been journaling a lot and kind of writing about my experience and I always thought, you know, it would be great to share this one day. And so this felt like the right opportunity to do that and to start talking about it and sharing my story. So I joined Jamie and eight other authors, including myself on this book called The Losses We Keep, Our Journey of Fertility, Loss and Neverending Hope.   And it's just a compilation of our stories. So we each have a chapter and we share, you know, what we went through and every story is unique and different. So there's really something for everybody who's either going through, going through it or know somebody who's going through it. So it's really beautiful how it all came together and yeah, kind of what led me there.   Michelle (15:26) I that's so beautiful that first of all, I think there's something therapeutic about sharing your story and getting your story out there. Plus, that is going to help others And it's kind of interesting when you were talking about your experience with a doctor and it was kind of like you went and then they're like, okay, you know, well, it's good luck next time. And then you're off.   with no guidance whatsoever. I hear that story time and time again. I hear it so much that I'm don't they create some kind of like the mental health aspect? Why don't they create some kind of support for people? Because I feel like that's part of the whole process. I feel like it should be part of it. When you're going through a loss like that, and it's often your first loss and   you don't know who to talk to and you might not have a community. Some people don't have anybody like at all. So I just don't understand why I feel like it should be protocol for people going through it. And so that's why I love the fact that you actually wrote the story because I feel like when people hear other people's stories, I think the biggest thing and tell me if this is accurate, it's just knowing that you're not alone, that you're not like alone in this experience.   Samantha Bonizzi (16:24) Yep.   Yeah.   It says that's exactly right. And that was a big part of my why too. was partly being therapeutic and kind of being able to get all of this out there and get it on the page and share it. But it was also being able to help other women feel less alone because that was something I so needed when I was going through it was to have that sense of community or just.   hearing people who had been through the journey and who ended up on the other side. And that's a lot of what Jamie talks about too and why she started this project was because when she was going through it, like, yes, there were resources that you can find in books and things, but at times could feel sort of negative. And she just needed the optimism. And this is really, you know, it's meant to be a beacon of hope for women who are going through it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's just, it's something that is so needed. because I think when you're going through that, you really don't have any guarantee. you just don't know how tomorrow is going to be and like how it's going to work out. And it's always kind of like having faith. Okay, well, you know, my past has been disappointment and loss and hurt and pain. And so is my future going to look like that too?   Samantha Bonizzi (17:46) Yeah.   Michelle (17:58) And then what I also thought was really interesting, and I think it's great that you bring up is that when you talked about IVF and you considered it and all the different thoughts that you have, all these things that you think in the back of your head, like, well, are they trying to sell this on me? These are those little thoughts that we all have, but we don't always speak or even acknowledge. It's kind of like sitting there behind everything.   Samantha Bonizzi (18:22) Yeah.   Michelle (18:24) So when you're thinking that what I found really amazing with how you described it is that you assessed, kind of sat with it and you also address the fact that you're like, wait, rather than saying, okay, this is better luck next time, let me try again, again, because there's nothing wrong and kind of going with what you were being told, you let your inner guidance, your inner wisdom, I call it, it's almost like our inner compass leads you to   uncovering more and you're like, wait, I'm not going to put myself through this again, before I get more information. And then also when you got information, you assessed everything and you listened to your gut. always talk to people about that because even I, as a practitioner, cannot bypass that. that's your, you have the intelligence inside your body, inside your mind that guides you to what is right for you.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:22) Yeah, I mean, that was a big, big part of it because it was such a, it was such a heavy decision and you could weigh out the pros and cons all day long. But at the end of the day, it's just what you feel in your gut is right. And I think for us, and I say us, cause it really was a joint decision between my husband and I, even though it was my body, we just felt like we needed to try something different. You know, what we had done historically wasn't working and you know, we trusted   Michelle (19:46) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:51) the doctor that we were working with and we trusted the clinic and I had done a lot of the leg work to get us to that point. I switched fertility clinics, I switched doctors even at that fertility clinic once I was there. So I felt like I had done so much to get us to that point and it felt like the right next step. mean, there was certainly doubt in all of that because I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen and the thought of IVF is scary. When you haven't been through it, you don't know.   Michelle (20:07) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:20) And I had never dealt with anything medically before either. So even just like being in and out of the doctor and all of that and dealing with doctors, I wasn't used to that. So that was something I really had to orient myself around and learn how to talk to doctors and advocate for ourselves. know, like with all the testing and everything, there were moments where I really did have to advocate and push for more testing and push for them to test my husband's sperm because there was...   Michelle (20:37) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:48) point one which they didn't want to and you know that would feel good to have it be put on the women. So there was a lot of moments where you kind of have to, I don't know, you kind of learn and grow from it I think and that's at least what I tried to take from it but it was all definitely a challenge but yes I agree that just listening to your intuition at the end of the day is what's gonna push you forward.   Michelle (20:51) Yep.   Totally.   Yeah, no doubt. And I know that the community was like a big thing for you too, is just connecting with other people helped you get strength, but also clarity, I imagine.   Samantha Bonizzi (21:29) Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like I said, it was, was in talking to other women who had been through it. And I think, you know, I, when you envision how you start a family, you never envision there to be challenges like this, miscarriages, fertility treatment, all of that. And so, because it was just such a new concept that you kind of have to orient yourself around, it's helpful to hear from other people who had   been through it and can kind of help shed light on the experience and make you feel like, okay, this is actually a moment of strength and not a weakness. It's not a moment of weakness that we are now having to resort to fertility treatment and we can't get pregnant the natural way, which I hate that concept of natural versus medicated. Yeah, it's all natural, right? And that was what   Michelle (22:24) it's all natural. It's a baby. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:29) I told myself in the end, I don't care the path that we get there anymore, I just want the baby in our arms. And so whatever it takes to get there, I will do it. And that helped me, I think come to terms with IVF as well, is that it's the destination that matters, not the journey.   Michelle (22:36) Yeah.   I love that. actually really love that you're saying that because it's true. It's almost like that. As soon as you surrender the how it seems to make things a lot easier, then you're just like, okay, and then because you you're moving with the flow of the how, rather than resisting it at every point, because that resistance is only going to cause more stress.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:51) No.   Yes.   It does.   Yes, exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. When I was going through the testing and everything, it was like, I was trying to gain so much control over every little aspect. I mean, and not even just with doctors, but in, you know, the lifestyle changes that I was making and putting effort into my diet and the supplements and the environment, all those things that you hear about that are supposed to help the fertility and   I think there's definitely some merit to it, but at the same time, it gets exhausting. Just having to, you want to think that you have, yeah, and you want to think you have some semblance of control over the situation, in which for me, it was very much a coping mechanism, because I felt such at a loss with everything, that I was like, okay, if I do these things and I control these things, at least I can, you know, feel like I'm doing something and I'm making, and I'm getting momentum towards, you know, the end goal here.   Michelle (23:46) It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:08) But I think I became very burnt out by it all. so I think the other appealing thing with IVF was like, can kind of surrender to the process and trust the doctors and just choose this as my path forward. And there was some comfort in that.   Michelle (24:26) Yeah, because it's almost like a plan is in place and you're just like following this plan and then you have a direction to go in.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:32) Yeah, yeah, exactly.   Michelle (24:35) And what are other coping skills that you found doing this? Because I know obviously community is tremendous. I know that that is really because we really need people. We're such social beings. We need people. We need to hear that we're not alone. We're not the only ones thinking certain thoughts or feeling certain feelings. So having that community it eases the load, that kind of personal load.   But what are other things that you've done that you feel have helped you in the process just for people listening?   Samantha Bonizzi (25:06) I think therapy was a big one and finding the right therapist who, for me at least, who understood what I was going through and kind of had a more specialized focus in everything maternal health. I had dabbled in therapy before and I was seeing a therapist when I first got pregnant, but I decided to switch after the miscarriage and find somebody who   Michelle (25:21) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (25:36) like I said, was specialized. And, you know, I felt like could get me through the specific situation that I was going through. And I think that was really important for my healing journey, was having that regular touch point of therapy, of talk therapy, and just having an outlet to get everything out and work through whatever it was that I needed to work through.   you know, it's something where you have your friends and family and your partner, but you at the same time might feel like a, at least for me, I felt like a burden a lot of the time, like not really wanting to put that on everyone else around me. So having that like consistent therapy appointment was just always a good outlet for me to kind of sort through the ins and outs of what I was going through. So I think therapy was a big one. And then just like,   generally self-care, whatever was going to get me through, whether it was like making that massage appointment or whether it was related to fertility or not. think just having, getting out for the walk with the good podcast and like prioritizing that, like there was no limits to my self-care time, I think during that window.   Michelle (26:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (27:00) you know, whatever I could do to make myself feel better in the short term or the long term was what I was doing.   Michelle (27:06) That's so important because it's kind of like a self-soothing. I think that that is a really good skill to have, to find ways to make yourself feel better. Sometimes that gets neglected. It's not something that we're actually raised to think about. Oftentimes it's actually quite the opposite. We feel guilty about it. We're like, you know, what are you doing sitting around? You're not doing anything. So you feel almost guilty about it. And it's a conditioning because it's really something that is so important really for   Samantha Bonizzi (27:10) Yeah.   Michelle (27:35) our bodies, for our nervous systems. I often talk about nervous system because it's so important for fertility health, but it's also important for your emotional state as well. And I also love that you brought up therapy, but specifically with somebody who is specialized in your specific needs, which there are out there just for people listening.   And you can find people who are very specifically specialized in this field and understand the process. They understand the grieving process and how, you know, there's patterns to every type of emotion. So I think it's really important. Yeah, for sure. And I think also you'll talk to somebody who understands you specifically and what you're going through.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:12) Yep. Yeah. So important. Yeah.   Yes, yes. And it's that and even now it's all connected. Like she, my therapist understands my journey and what got me to this pregnancy and now helping me through this pregnancy and all the other anxieties and fears that I now feel being pregnant after pregnancy loss. There's a lot of nuance to that. having her as part of...   Michelle (28:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:49) the lead up and into kind where I am now has been really helpful. And even as I enter into postpartum, you know, I think everything around motherhood, it's all there's, and I don't, I'm almost, I'm about to embark on motherhood. So there's a lot to learn, but there's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety. The worrying never stops. So I'm so grateful that I found the right person.   Michelle (29:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, that's true. mean, your emotions and everything that you're going through, doesn't just stop when you get to the place that you're looking to get to, you know? So there's always something and it is really important to address because it will come up sometimes and it legitimately is PTSD. mean, so you're going through something and then you were saying about going back to the doctor's office. Yes, because it's like the sensations, the lights, the visuals, all of the things.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:23) Yeah.   Michelle (29:41) those are all reminding us of the last time we were there and all the things that we went through in that time. So it's really important to at least even acknowledge that and know that those things can come up and that they're normal. Like it happens really, can't even think of one patient that has not gone through that, that I've worked with.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:42) Yeah.   Yeah, and that's been the challenge is sort of having to like relive your past traumas. You know, when it comes to pregnancy after loss, you have to do the things that are hard that remind you of the bad times. You know, like you said, going into those ultrasound appointments and dealing with being in the same room you were in when you found out about your pregnancy loss and how to get through that. And   therapy did really help me with that, kind of being able to ground yourself in reality and like, what do I know is true right now? And I think the fact of keeping, you know, reminding myself that this is a different pregnancy with a different outcome with a different story was really important and a concept I kind of picked up from therapy and also support groups and things like that. So   There are all these coping mechanisms at the end of the day. It's still hard, you kind of, there's no way to go but through yeah, it's so true. And so, you know, in order to get there, I had to get pregnant again, had to go through the first trimester, had to get through the ultrasounds in order to get to where I am now. So.   Michelle (31:01) Yeah.   I love that thing. It's true.   Mm-hmm   Samantha, you are so articulate. You're really good with your words. You're really good at describing your experience I could feel the emotion in your voice, even when you're explaining it, like really, like you really walk us through that exact experience very well. Like you could really, really feel it. So first of all, I think it's just, takes a lot of courage to express things or to speak about things that are so personal.   Samantha Bonizzi (31:21) Thank you.   Thank you.   Michelle (31:45) And I know that you're doing this really for the benefit of people listening. So for that, I really want to commend you. think it's just beautiful. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is when you're able to take something that is so hard and so personal and know that you kind of like, it's like alchemy, know, something that can be so painful could serve a purpose for somebody else hearing it.   And then just to also share in that, I guess, that human So thank you so much for sharing that. And for people who want to read this book, how can they find it? How can they find you?   Samantha Bonizzi (32:21) Yeah, absolutely. So we are available. The book is available on Amazon or really wherever you purchase your books. And we've been out for about two weeks. So it's fairly new out in the market, but we're excited about it and hope you'll, whether you're someone going through it or you know somebody going through it. Like I said, there's a story in there for everybody. So we hope it touches you in some way.   I'm the best place to find me is Instagram. So I'm at Sam dot Benizzi. And yeah, I'm public on there, but send me a DM. I'd love to connect.   Michelle (33:03) Awesome. I'll have all the links in the podcast episode notes. So if anybody wants to go in there, you'll find the website and the Instagram and Samantha, you're just such a doll. Like I always liked you from the beginning when he first came in. You just have such a good energy about you. And I just, I really, yeah, I loved, I love having you on here and having this conversation with you. And then just the fact that you co-authored a book is just amazing.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:14) Yeah.   Thank you. Likewise.   Thank you so much for having me and giving me a platform to continue to share. it's been great to connect with you. Like I said, was one time, but you really left a mark. So I'm glad we can kind of stay in contact about it as well.   Michelle (33:47) Awesome. Well, thank you so much.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:49) Thank you.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Marc Sklar to delve into evolving perspectives on fertility, especially for women over 40. We discuss the need to shift our focus from quantity to quality in fertility treatments, and the empowering impact this has on women navigating their fertility journeys. We cover the realities of IVF, the importance of patience, self-advocacy, and creating space for personal growth and healing. Marc and I also explore complex factors such as genetics, autoimmune issues, and male-related factors in recurrent pregnancy loss. This conversation is full of valuable insights for anyone on their fertility journey, promoting a holistic approach to healing and growth.   Takeaways  

• A shift in mindset is crucial for couples seeking fertility care after 40.
• Quality of eggs and embryos becomes more important than quantity as women age.
• Understanding hormones is important, but shouldn't be the sole focus.
• Regular ovulation is a key indicator of fertility, regardless of age.
• Real-life success stories provide hope and perspective for those trying to conceive.
• Patients should feel empowered to advocate for themselves in medical settings.
• IVF is not a guaranteed solution and should not be the first option considered.
• Donor eggs can be a valuable option, but should not be the first recommendation based solely on age.
• The energetics of fertility are crucial for healing.
• Recurrent pregnancy loss can stem from various factors, including genetics and autoimmune issues.
• Male factors contribute to 50% of miscarriages, often overlooked.
• The importance of the uterine environment in fertility cannot be ignored.
• Quick fixes are a societal conditioning that impacts health decisions.
• Understanding the microbiome can enhance fertility treatments.
• Emotional states can significantly affect physical health and fertility.

  Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!   Guest Bio:   Dr. Marc Sklar — a.k.a The Fertility Expert — is a natural fertility specialist helping couples get pregnant for 21 years. He’s mission is to help you feel HOPEFUL and CONFIDENT about your fertility journey again.    In addition to his Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, Dr. Sklar trained at the Harvard Medical School, Mind/Body Medical Institute. He is the creator of Fertility TV, MarcSklar.com and ReproductiveWellness.com, and a Fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine and Medical Advisor for Symphony Natural Health.   As well as his online program, he also supports his community via his highly popular YouTube channel: FertilityTV where he shares information packed videos to educate his followers on all things fertility.    The Fertility Expert lives in San Diego, with his wife and two sons, where he has his clinic Reproductive Wellness. He also works with couples all over the world through his fertility online coaching - the Hope Fertility Program.   FERTILITY TV WEEKLY EPISODE - http://bit.ly/thefertilityexpert FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/thefertilityexpert INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/the_fertility_expert/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Scalari.   Marc Sklar (00:03) Welcome, well, thank you for having me. It's automatic. But no, it's awesome to reconnect. It's been a while and I'm excited to have a conversation that we both are passionate about, which is everything fertility.   Michelle (00:07) I know it's automatic. Yes.   For sure. We're like, you could say we're a little obsessed, right? With fertility. It's like, live it, we breathe it, So awesome. actually today we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but I wanted to talk to you about pregnancy after 40. Cause I know that a lot of what we hear out there, even about,   Marc Sklar (00:25) 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   Michelle (00:46) how even after 35, it's considered a geriatric pregnancy, which I don't know about you. just don't love that term at all. It's icky. yeah, because I'm sure you see most people like closer to the age of 40 and doing really well. So I'd love for you to talk about it, your experience with that, and also some really cool examples of how it can work despite all of the naysayers.   Marc Sklar (00:55) Yeah, not a fan of it.   Mm-hmm   Yeah, so I think, I so many things I want to talk about when you say this that I need to prioritize it in a good way. here's a couple of things that I think are really important. One is, I think our perspective about fertility, and when I say our, not ours as practitioners and doctors and providers, but more like ours as in like,   the couple who is seeking care during this time and wanting to get pregnant in their 40s, I think a mind shift has to happen. And I think that they need to think about their fertility in a slightly different way. If we are thinking about our fertility and reading everything that is really focused on   couples that are 30 or 35 or whatever age in their 30s, then we're going to be skewed differently about our own fertility and our approach needs to be different. And so I say that in the sense that, you know, we have to have a different reality of what is okay and what we're trying to achieve. A woman who's in her 30s is trying to get as many eggs as possible.   Michelle (02:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (02:43) So they have as many options when they have their embryos created and they are, you know, it's usually more about in general and this is a making a generalization, but it's more about quantity versus quality. We're like, let's have as many as we have so that we can choose the best quality of those and then we can move forward, you know, with our pregnancy. And...   the approach may or may not be in those situations about egg quality, because there might be other variables that are impacting their ability to conceive. Whereas I think when we are 40 and older, my approach really shifts. I don't care about quantity. I'm really, really focused on quality. And I think that mindset has to be different as a couple.   because then we were not as disappointed like, I didn't get that many follicles and they didn't retrieve as many eggs as I would have hoped. But because that's all we hear about. We hear about, look, we need all these eggs, we need all these embryos. But the reality is, is when we get older, I don't need 20 eggs or 20 embryos, I need a couple good ones. That's really what I'm looking for is a couple good embryos.   to work with and to transfer. So I think really a mind shift needs to happen and our perspective on fertility needs to change. And so for reading and understanding things as if we were 30 versus 40 or older, then we're gonna have, I believe, skewed perspective on our fertility journey. So that to me is number one. Number two is we do all get caught up in our hormones and some of that is appropriate and some of that is not appropriate.   Is it appropriate to understand where our hormones are at when we're at any age? 100%. Is it important to understand what our estrogen is doing and what our progesterone and FSH are doing? Absolutely. Is it important to know what our AMH is? Yes. Should we get caught up in AMH and make our whole focus about AMH? No.   The research doesn't promote, doesn't support these variables. Even FSH, AMH are not good indicators for a couple's ability to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy. Are they important for us to just have a baseline and understand? Yes. Will they potentially or can they potentially influence your IVF protocol? Yes.   But that doesn't mean we as couples need to get wrapped up in those numbers and make our fertility all about that because it shouldn't be. My rule of thumb is are you having a regular cycle? Check. Are you ovulating regularly? Check. Is your bleed healthy? Check. You can conceive.   Michelle (05:40) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:00) Do we have to look at these other variables? Do we need to check your thyroid? Do we need to work on your adrenal glands and stress? Do we need to make sure your gut is healthy? Do we need to make sure all the systems are functioning properly? Seem analysis is good. Fallopian tubes are open. All of those things are still important. But the main thing that as long as you're ovulating, you can get.   And I think that's a really important piece. Now, we're not talking about IVF or not IVF right now. It's just like conception at 40, right? And or older. And so I think if we just focus on the right things and don't get bogged down by these little details of someone who might approach things a little differently if they were 30, then our approach will be better. It will be healthier.   Michelle (06:37) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:57) you'll be more grounded in your approach. And we could focus on the areas that really need attention and support. And so I think that piece is really important as we are in our 40s, approaching fertility, still wanting to conceive. If we're always comparing ourselves to other women and other circumstances, we're gonna lose sight of what we need to do and always be trying to like catch up or do what they're doing. And I think that is...   That can really push us down the wrong road. I say this because truly I work with so many women who are over 40. And I see this time and time again. So it's coming from a lot of experience working with women over 40. And I have a wonderful story to share of a woman who is, and everyone will gasp when they hear, okay, when she conceived she was 48.   Michelle (07:55) That's awesome. I love that.   Marc Sklar (07:55) She is, I just spoke to her two days ago. When she delivers, she will be 49. Okay? And I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey.   Michelle (08:08) Was this natural or was it IVF?   Marc Sklar (08:11) This time was natural, but I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey. She did. I'm not saying it was easy. It was not. It was a long journey. It was difficult. Miscarriages, conceiving naturally, conceiving through IVF, long IVF protocols, multiple clinics, like all these things. So it wasn't easy. It was long, but she's 32 weeks pregnant right now.   Michelle (08:40) Wow, amazing.   Marc Sklar (08:41) And I say that because it's possible. It can happen. And these are the sorts of things we see on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's easy at 48, not at all. But I say that for some perspective on the process. Okay. And I think that, you know, do I think everyone could last for seven plus years trying? No, I don't think that's for everybody. She was never going to give up.   Michelle (08:51) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (09:11) Like regardless, like she was never going to stop and never give up until she was pregnant. And that's what she told me. She's like, I'm not going to stop and I'm determined. I was like, okay, I'll support you. Right. That, that, that process is not for everybody. Some people will be on it for a year or just have one or two IVF transfers. And they're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm going to move on. And I respect everybody's path in that process, but   Michelle (09:21) Wow, amazing. Yeah.   Right.   Marc Sklar (09:39) I want everyone to know it's possible and that's why I share that story. I think it's possible regardless of age with the right support and the right process and the right focus of our attention.   Michelle (09:51) I love that. I really do. And I love the stories because I think that there's so many people that can benefit and you have that sign hope in the background. And it's true. Like those are, but stories, real life stories, there's nothing like real life stories to provide real hope. Cause you can hear, you know, there's a chance of this or a chance of that. But when you actually see an example of somebody going through those challenges that you are and having a successful pregnancy,   Marc Sklar (10:00) Yeah.   Michelle (10:21) I think that there's nothing that compares to that.   Marc Sklar (10:24) Yeah, absolutely. And I love to bring in stories wherever possible. And she was just at top of mind because I just booked her two days ago. So yeah.   Michelle (10:33) That's awesome. You know what I find really cool is the Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest pregnancy is 58 and it was natural. And it was a woman in England who, you know, in England, they don't have a lot of sunlight and, know, and vitamin D access naturally. So I thought that was really cool. But it's, it could be done. It's possible. Just like you said, and I love that you said   Marc Sklar (10:45) Wow. No.   Michelle (10:58) as long as you're ovulating, there is a possibility that you can get pregnant.   Marc Sklar (11:02) Yeah, yeah, we see this, we do see this all the time. Look, as soon as you hit 35 and 38 and certainly 40 and older, you're going to read things and hear things that say, you can't, it's not possible, you won't, you need donor, you need IVF, whatever it is that you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear it all.   I think the hardest time is when you hear it from the person on the other side of the desk in a white coat that says to you, your only option is donor, just give up. And we all hear variations of those words, whether it's not possible, just use donor, whatever variation of that, of what I just said, when you go into an office, whether that's your OB,   Michelle (11:46) True.   Marc Sklar (12:01) or your REI or whoever it might be, and you're sitting down talking to them and they see your age, they assume certain things and they make certain judgments. And they express those verbally to you. And you hear that and that registers in your brain that embeds into your brain. And you start to believe it. Well, yeah, right.   Michelle (12:22) It's nocebo.   True.   Marc Sklar (12:28) I've never heard it, say it. really like that phrase. Yeah.   Michelle (12:31) You're never going to be able to get it out of your head now. Every time a woman comes in and tells you the story.   Marc Sklar (12:36) Yeah. And so look, they said this to you, it and our our brains are really strong and we imprint with these negative things very easily. It's much harder to imprint with all the positive, it takes more effort. And so it imprints into our brain. And now we start to believe it. Well, Dr. So and so said, it's not possible, I'm not going to do it, I can't. And then we repeat that to ourselves so often that   Michelle (12:49) Right. It's true.   Marc Sklar (13:05) Now our body and our brains believe that to be true. so if someone says something negative to you, you have to work double or triple as hard on yourself to get that out. And you need to express to them, I didn't come here to hear negativity. I didn't come here for you to tell me that I can't. I'm determined to get pregnant.   Michelle (13:09) 100%.   Marc Sklar (13:33) And it's fine if you're not able or willing to help me, I'll go someplace else, but I don't need you to tell me that I can't do it, because I know that I can. And you have to do it in that moment. You have to say that in that moment to them, because what you're saying to them is repeating it back to yourself to retrain yourself and get rid very quickly, get rid of that negative comment so it doesn't embed into your brain, into your conscious.   Michelle (13:52) Yeah.   Marc Sklar (14:00) But it also allows them, they need to be woken up. One, they need to be told this is not okay. And two, you have to have the power and the strength to verbalize that truth to them. Okay. You might not be getting pregnant in the conventional way that you thought or they thought. You might not get pregnant in the way that they would like you to. It doesn't mean that you cannot get pregnant. It means that it might take longer. It might be a different path. It might be...   whatever. And so I think it's really important in those moments to stand up for yourself and verbalize that and let them know they might not like it. It's okay. Yeah, you didn't like what they said to you. So it's fine.   Michelle (14:41) Yeah, exactly.   Totally, totally. And that's like really taking your power back regardless, ultimately it's your journey. You're not there to make the doctor feel better.   Marc Sklar (14:53) Right, listen, I think that's such an important piece. Unlike most other medical visits and specialties, you are a consumer buying their service. Just because they're wearing a white coat and they have MD after their name does not mean   that they get the say in everything. It's your journey, it's your process. You're paying them a lot of money for their service. And even if you have insurance coverage, by the way, it's still insurance coverage that can go someplace else to pay for somebody else. So it doesn't have to go to them. And so...   You have the power, like they make it feel like they have the power and they control the situation. I want you to know you have the power. You control the situation and your outcome. It's your dollars that you're spending. You are and should be an equal participant in this process with them. And they don't have to dictate everything. Now, I'm not saying, you you're telling them the protocols to use all the time, but   It needs to be a joint effort in this process. It's totally different than going into a different medical environment and a different provider for different services. They're not charging you $20,000, those other people, for a service that's elective. So stand up for yourself. Have that empowerment to do so.   Michelle (16:34) Yeah.   Right.   Yeah. And another point that I want to make is, you know, when you're working with a doctor, it doesn't matter how qualified, like, I feel like they should believe in your outcome. If they're doubting your outcome, find another person.   Marc Sklar (16:57) Yeah, right now, 100%, 100%. Look, I am not opposed to donor egg. I think that donor egg is something that is super valuable and has its place. What I don't like is that just because of your age, someone is telling you, need to use donor egg. What they're really saying,   And there is certainly a place for donor egg. have lots of women that I work with that use donor egg very successfully and I'm a big proponent of it. But what, why they are telling you just based on your age to use donor egg is because their success rates are impacted by your age and the challenge, the potential challenge of getting pregnant at your age.   Michelle (17:51) Right.   Marc Sklar (17:55) And so for them and their success rates, they have higher chances with using donor egg and they would just prefer, it's an easier process, they would prefer that you use donor egg for that purpose. Okay, now again, does it mean that it's not the right decision for some? It just means that I think if they're just making that decision based on age, I think there's a lot of other pieces that need to be looked at before that decision is made.   Michelle (18:24) What you just said is so important because it's the reality. Really if the system, it's the reality because their ability to really stay on top of their game is for their statistics to make them look really good. And it's human nature. They're going to be thinking about that when they're talking to you, regardless if they're, you know, they can be great doctors, the two can coexist, but   They're also in a business. So it's important to keep that in mind in the realistic aspect of it is that it's going to make them look better. They don't want to take a risk. They see it as a risk, but that doesn't mean that just because they see it that way, that that's really the case for you.   Marc Sklar (18:54) 100%.   Right, yeah. Look, absolutely. I say this also from, so everyone knows who's listening, 50 % of the couples that I work with, 50 % of them are doing IVF. I could group IUI into that as well, so IUI or IVF, some form of assistive technique. Of that number, about 15%, use donor egg.   Michelle (19:33) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (19:34) So I'm fine with it. I'm happy to support you with it. I just often think that choice is made prematurely or that push in that direction is done prematurely without really giving you a fair chance, really looking at your case as a whole versus just looking at you as an age, as a number.   Michelle (19:56) Same thing with IVF. I also find that with IVF that people will start out maybe three months and they're young and they're like, you know, I just want a baby now. So I'm going to go to IVF. And a lot of people have a preconceived notion just because you're paying a huge amount of money and that there's technology involved that doesn't give a guarantee. in fact, I've seen people get more successful naturally, even at an older age than going through IVF.   Marc Sklar (20:05) Easy.   Well, the success rates for IVF for those who are listening and aren't aware are relatively low. You know, in your, from 30 to 35, those success rates are around 35 to 40 % ish. You know, depending on the clinic, some clinics might have a little higher, some a little bit lower, but roughly, you know, in the United States, that's an accurate statistic. It only goes down as you get older. And if you look, because most clinics,   Michelle (20:50) you   Marc Sklar (20:56) Don't have to report, but most clinics do report their statistics. If you look at statistics for IVF in their 40s without donor egg, those statistics are very, very low. So then you have to ask yourself, is this worth the money or can I get the same or better statistics and results trying naturally by addressing the root issues, by focusing on the things that I need to focus on, by getting healthy.   are those better for me? Are those odds better? One of the beautiful things you mentioned it with, you work with younger women and after three months they move forward with IVF. One of the beautiful things that's happened over the last 20 years is that fertility treatments and the fertility journey has become something that is more accepted and people are more willing to talk about it. And as a result of that,   marketing towards those communities has increased dramatically. And as a result, IBF has been spoken about more frequently because of that marketing. And so it's become so much more commonplace that couples who want to get pregnant, young, try for three months or six months, hey, it's not working.   you know, so and so did IVF and got pregnant or so, you know, we should just go do IVF. And they don't know the real statistics. They believe that it's a hundred percent successful. And as a result, it becomes the first line of treatment versus, you know, what used to be the third or fourth or fifth line of treatment, right? Well, I used to go to my OB and they used to do that. And then I would try other things. Now it's like, I'm not pregnant. Let's just go do IVF. Right. And so so many couples end up doing IVF.   thinking it's faster or more convenient without really working on themselves. And in turn, then they realized later on, I really shouldn't have started this way because it's not a guarantee. I haven't been successful. So they go there very prematurely. My preference would be is to see couples have patience. Take a step back. What's not working for me?   Michelle (23:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Marc Sklar (23:17) What do I need to improve and correct? And let's work on the root issues so that way you can be successful moving forward. And I had a conversation two weeks ago with a woman. I talked about it briefly this week on my Instagram stories because I think we were both frustrated with each other during this conversation. She has a history of repeated chemical pregnancies.   And she is frustrated with the lack of results and I've just started working with her. And so I asked her, know, she, and as we just started working together, she had another chemical and I asked her to stop trying for a little bit. I'm like, you're just having these ongoing chemicals and we're really not able to make progress. I just wrote out this plan for you. I want to give it some opportunity. You know, it's the end of the, it's close to the end of the year.   How about we just take off right now through the end of the year? Let's just take a break. Let's enjoy life and let's work on ourselves. And she felt like she was wasting time and she was feeling, I could feel her as soon as I said it, like getting anxious about like just the time of giving, creating this time to, and she's in her early forties. And she said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna do that. I can't do that. I'm gonna.   Michelle (24:19) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (24:44) I'm going to keep trying because I feel like I'm wasting time. We had this back and forth, this long conversation back and forth. I'm going to totally support her and respect her decision about how she wants to move forward. I just don't agree. Sometimes taking a step back and working on ourselves and creating space is progress towards our ultimate goal. I know that we think that if we're not actively having intercourse and trying to conceive at ovulation every month, that we're wasting time.   Michelle (24:57) Yeah.   yeah.   Marc Sklar (25:15) Well, in a situation like this, we're just spinning our wheels. If all we do is continue to do the same thing every month, expecting a different result, I don't know how that's gonna change. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of opportunity. And she's so worked up about it and anxious about it, she's trying to control every aspect and she's scared. She's making this decision out of fear.   Michelle (25:19) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (25:43) So one, the decision's being made out of fear, and two, she's trying to strangle, like, I'm gonna control all of this. It's not, we are typically not successful if we make decisions out of fear, number one, okay? And number two, the more we try to strangle something, the more you strangle it and you don't allow it to be successful.   We need to create some space, some room for things to occur. Okay? And I'm a big proponent of this, like, let's just take a step back. Let's take a deep breath. Let's understand, let's give ourselves some space and not have to be so stressed about this. Most things, if you think about it, are created in space, in a little bit of a vacuum. Sorry, not a vacuum, in a little bit of a space. If we have this vacuum, we're constantly trying to control it. There's no space for creation.   Michelle (26:19) Yep. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (26:39) There's no place for an opportunity for something to be created in. So I think it's, know, painting a beautiful painting is created from a blank canvas. It's created from space. And the same thing with our life. We need to create an opportunity for life to be created. And so that means not straining, not holding on so tight, not trying to control every little thing.   Michelle (26:52) Mm-hmm. Yep.   Marc Sklar (27:08) Let's take a step back. I'm not saying you don't like do the right things. I'm saying we don't try to control all of those things so closely. And I think this is really such an important lesson for all of us because our tendency when we're told is I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna add this in like, right? And you're just like more and more and more more and more. So that's like this stranglehold that happens.   Michelle (27:29) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (27:35) And I want us all to just let go a little bit more. It doesn't mean you're giving up. It doesn't mean you're taking a break. It doesn't have to be. It means you're just not holding on so tight to the outcome and the process. And I think this is so, so valuable for us. Difficult to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's so valuable. you know, I know her and I, were both...   kind of frustrated by the conversation because it didn't feel like she was listening to me and she didn't feel like she wanted to move on with my recommendations. She felt frustrated by me asking her to take a break. But I say it out of all love, like that is what I feel like is going to be the most beneficial for her in that situation. And I've had these conversations with others in the past and I'm just saying this from experience. So for all of you listening, sometimes we just gotta let go a little bit.   We've got to just ease up just a little bit.   Michelle (28:31) love this.   Yeah, no, I love this so much. you have no idea. Cause it, think that like you just said, you've had so much experience, you've seen this. And when you do something over and over again for many years, what happens is you start to get a feeling for it. You know, my husband works in the ER. He's starting to have a feel. He gets a sense when somebody's really sick or somebody saying they're sick, you start to get a sixth sense. You know, maybe we can't measure that, but it's a real thing. And I love that you talk about that. Cause to me that's   Marc Sklar (28:37) Yeah.   Michelle (29:04) being in a state of flow, being in a state of flow is the same exact thing that happens in our body when our chi flows and our vitality is able to feed all of our organs. cannot happen when it's constricted. And then going inward. Yeah, that's just going into the yin. You can't be constantly yang. You have to go back into the yin as well. And yin is incredibly productive.   Marc Sklar (29:25) Yeah.   Michelle (29:28) Like what happens when we're sleeping? We're in a state of yin. It's the most productive thing your body can do. You can't possibly have so much going on without that kind of like inert state. know, so it's, yeah, it's totally important, but also I don't know if you ever follow Dr. Joe Dispenza. I'm obsessed with his teachings. And have you ever done his meditations? So his meditations, he actually takes you through a form of induction, which   Marc Sklar (29:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   No.   Michelle (29:58) It's not hypnosis, but he gets you into a state of space, of becoming aware of space. Because when you become aware of space and everything that he does is based on science. actually has a whole research team on this. And this idea of kind of allowing this state of space, as they learn in quantum physics, you know, getting to this place where we're not locked in to the material world. We're not locked in.   We're kind of like moving back so we can allow this divine intelligence to take over. And then, and then it fixes things. It takes care of your body. does what it needs to do. Cause that's not our job. Our job is yet to direct and to intend, but our job is not to fix every single thing. When we try to do that, all we're doing is getting in the way of this divine intelligence. So I love that you're saying this because it totally like, it totally speaks the language that I'm feeling when it comes to.   fertility health and overall health like every way really.   Marc Sklar (31:00) Yeah, I agree. it's something I talk about. I have to do it, I feel like, repeatedly to the same person to get them to hear the message. And it's not intuitive. Like, personality-wise and for many of us, our goal is like, just want to fix it. I want to solve it. I want to do it. That creates this stranglehold. And so it's not intuitive for them to kind   Michelle (31:08) Yeah, because it's not common knowledge. It's not common.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (31:30) pull back a little bit and feel like that's moving forward. But it is.   Michelle (31:34) Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause I mean, we have, we're conditioned to, you know, to first of all, get quick fixes. I mean, this is, we've been conditioned for years and this is all marketing for quick fixes, like quicker, faster, better, you know, and we also are conditioned to no pain, no gain. You know, you have to work for it. You have to get it. You have to be on top and   Marc Sklar (31:46) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (31:59) So over time, this is just a habit. That's going to be our knee jerk reaction or response to pretty much anything, but it's not necessarily the response your body needs.   Marc Sklar (32:10) Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's actually with the younger generation, that's only getting worse. Maybe not the no pain, no gain part, but the quick fix. That's our generation. Yeah. The younger generation is like, I don't want any pain, but I want all the gain. Yeah. And the quick fix, you know, part of it is because of the phone.   Michelle (32:20) Yeah, that might be more our generation. This is true. It's true. Yeah. I just want to be on my phone.   Dopamine.   Marc Sklar (32:39) the dopamine, but also like this, as much as Amazon has been a great service to so many people, it's a huge disservice. We, and especially the younger generation, expect everything now in a day. Right? That's the quick fix. That's like immediate gratification. Free delivery, two days. Now everyone expects free delivery and they want it there in two days. And it doesn't work like,   Michelle (32:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (33:09) The world doesn't typically work that way, but they've preconditioned us to this. And that's to our detriment, right? Because that gets translated across the board to all aspects of our life. Now we want things faster. We more immediate gratification. it should have been fixed. Why didn't they get back to me, right? Like all of these things, I think that's a problem. Yeah.   Michelle (33:32) I'm like, we're on the same page. 100%. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it just, these are mental patterns that we're constantly repeating. And I'll be honest. I mean, ever since I had my phone, I just don't feel as sharp. I don't remember as much. My attention can't stay on one thing. And even me, I'm aware of this and it's impacting me.   Marc Sklar (33:41) Mm-hmm.   Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things to do both to bother my children and because it's beneficial to them is if we need to order something from Amazon, I put it on the longest shipping option as possible. Like if it says one week or two weeks, that's what I pick. Every time. I mean, unless I like immediately need something, whatever. But like.   Michelle (34:08) that's smart.   That's actually really smart.   You need it. You'll use it when you need it.   Marc Sklar (34:18) Yeah, but like in general, I use the longer shipping option because I'm trying to retrain their minds to be like, it's not here yet. Okay, we'll come. It's not, it's not the end of the world, right? It will arrive. and usually Amazon gives you a little benefit for that delay, by the way. Yeah.   Michelle (34:36) Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's a little cheaper. That's really smart. That is actually really, really smart. And then you can put things in one box. So it also is good for the environment. So when it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss, because you'd mentioned you're talking about chemical pregnancies and what are some of the common factors that you've seen clinically?   Marc Sklar (34:46) Yeah, and good for the environment.   Yeah.   Yeah, so chemical pregnancy could be a little bit different, but if we're talking about, you know, reoccurring pregnancy laws or, you know, multiple miscarriages, then the, there are four buckets that I put things into. The first bucket is one we have to look at and analyze, but one we potentially can't do much about, which is genetics, right? Is there some sort of genetic abnormality that's occurring potentially?   Michelle (35:24) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (35:30) due to my genetics or the combination of mine with my partners and what's that going on. I might end up with five causes actually now that I think about it. The next one is autoimmune issues. I find this is a huge reason for reoccurring pregnancy loss. will say also I find this is a big reason for secondary fertility issues.   Michelle (35:41) Hey, good.   Marc Sklar (35:59) with recurrent pregnancy loss. So secondary meaning you've been successful with the pregnancy one time or multiple times, and then at some point you're trying again and you're not successful, but in this case you've had, let's just say a loss. And so I would say I find that autoimmune issues are much more common in that situation because something happened in one of the previous pregnancies or postpartum that caused some sort of autoimmune issue that has triggered this outcome or contributed to this outcome.   Michelle (36:26) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (36:28) Another one is blood clotting factors, that there is some sort of, you know, some issue, whether that's genetic or not, because it doesn't have to be genetic, that is contributing to more clotting factors that doesn't allow for that embryo to implant properly, and you could have a miscarriage. So that's three. Four, uterine issues.   That could be wide, that could be like a bigger bubble that doesn't get talked about as frequently. So what's going on in implantation that might be contributing to that? Is there an infection, a virus, a bacteria? Is there inflammation? Is there endometriosis? What is going on inside the uterine cavity and with the endometrium that could be causing this pregnancy or multiple pregnancies to not be able to be held?   And then the last one, which is male factor. So 50 % of all miscarriages are male factor related. Most typically in those, it's going to be some sort of DNA fragmentation issue. So the DNA of the sperm has been compromised in some way and that's contributing to that loss. That's the one that unfortunately we don't talk about as much because, like why would a male...   Michelle (37:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (37:57) contribute to the miscarriage, you know, and they're not carrying. So that one gets ignored, but something that needs to be ruled out. So those are the, I said four, but really five, those are the five reasons that, you we should look at.   Michelle (38:10) Yeah, for sure. And also the microbiome, know vaginal microbiome can impact a lot.   Marc Sklar (38:14) Yeah, so that I look at that in that fourth one with the uterine environment. So to me, that microbiome is a piece that I look at when I'm evaluating that. Yeah.   Michelle (38:23) Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like they should always look at that, like before transfers. mean, cause people are paying so much money. And I know in Spain, it's more commonplace for them to give vaginal, suppositories for, probiotics. And I feel like it would really be very helpful for a lot of people.   Marc Sklar (38:33) Yep.   Great.   Yeah, I've started running that test much more frequently in the last year. And I can't say I run it for everybody because at some point I'm just balancing cost of things, right? Like we could run every test under the sun. It's just like, it's a matter of cost. But certainly if I see implantation failure, if I see chemical pregnancies, you know, these are the sorts of things that for sure I'll start to look at.   Michelle (38:48) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Chris. Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could talk for hours, I love that we talked about, first of all, it's really interesting just to get your take on things and to hear from another person who's doing the same thing, But also, you know, I love the fact that you were talking about the energetics of it, because I think that when you do this long enough, you start to see patterns and you could start to see how emotions can really constrict the chi, you know, from our perspective.   Marc Sklar (39:38) Yeah, sure.   Michelle (39:39) So I think that that is really important because yes, we could look at all the little details and the numbers and the stats, but the energetics aspect, we can get so kind of like focused on the small parts. And then sometimes it's good to kind of go zoom back and see the bigger picture. So I thought what you said about that to me was very, very powerful.   Marc Sklar (40:01) Yeah, all of these things, like everything we talked about today is so valuable for those individuals who need that specific message, right? Like we're all in a different place and we all have our own journey, but hopefully, you know, the messages we shared today and the information we shared today really resonated with those who are listening.   Michelle (40:10) Yeah.   I'm sure they did for sure. mean, was a really valuable information. So it's been great having you back, Dr. Sklar. It's been too long and we should do this every so often because I feel like we're never going to really run out of things to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on.   Marc Sklar (40:34) I agree. I'm happy to be on any time. Yeah,   Yeah, I appreciate it and wishing everyone success on their journeys.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to Dr. Jeff Gross, a top Neurosurgeon who has a background specializing in athletic injuries and spine procedures. Dr. Jeff shares his journey from spinal neurosurgery to the forefront of regenerative medicine, focusing on the transformative potential of stem cells and exosomes. He explains the science behind stem cells, their applications in treating joint degeneration, and their role in anti-aging and fertility. Dr. Jeff also discusses the regulatory landscape, the cost of treatments, and the exciting future of stem cell research, including innovative approaches to enhance mitochondrial function which has a lot of promise when it comes to egg and sperm health.   Takeaways  

• Stem cells can be used to treat various conditions, including inflammation.
• Accumulation of inflammation is a key factor in aging and conception challenges.
• Exosomes may play a significant role in the benefits of stem cell therapy.
• Regenerative medicine is evolving rapidly, with new research emerging.
• The cost of stem cell treatments can vary but is becoming more accessible.
• Stem cells are sourced from well-regulated donor programs in the US.
• Direct injection of stem cells may yield higher doses than IV administration.
• Future research may explore the use of exosomes in fertility treatments.
• Dr. Jeff emphasizes the importance of personalized treatment plans. 

    Guest Bio:   Dr. Jeffrey Gross graduated from the University of California, Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned his Doctor of Medicine in 1992 from the George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research during his studies. After graduating, he undertook a residency in neurological surgery at the University of California, Irvine Medical Center until 1997. He then pursued a Fellowship and Chief Residency in Spinal Biomechanics at the University of New Mexico until 1999. Licensed in California and Nevada, Dr. Gross has SPINE practices in Orange County and Henderson, Nevada. A trained neurological surgeon, he specializes in athletic injuries and spine procedures, and offers longevity and biohacking consultations. He achieved board certification by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and is a member of several prestigious medical societies. He has written textbooks and articles in his area of expertise and is a peer-reviewer for the state of California and a scientific journal. Since 2020, Top Doctor recognized Dr. Gross as a leading Neurological Surgeon. He also received HealthTap’s 2022 Top Doctor Award as a top Neurological Surgeon in the U.S. Dr. Gross founded ReCELLebrate, focusing on anti-aging and regenerative medicine. The mission for ReCELLebrate emphasizes offering modern biochemical treatments and considering surgery as a last resort.     Websites: https://recellebrate.com/ https://www.instagram.com/recellebrate/ https://www.tiktok.com/@recellebrate https://www.youtube.com/@stemcellwhisperer https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-gross-md-5605605/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (00:03) Thank you so much for having me. Nice to see you.   Michelle (00:06) Nice to see you as well. So you definitely have a very long, impressive background. So I'd love for you to share your story on how you got to really to the anti-aging stem cells work that you do, So I'd love to just get a quick background so the listeners can hear.   Dr. Jeff (00:26) Sure, thank you for that. It was by accident of sorts, maybe directed accident because I was practicing as a spinal neurosurgeon, taking care mainly of neck and back trouble, some other neurological issues, nerve problems, things like that. But my practice was highly consultative, a lot of opinions, second opinions. I was seeing patients who had neck and back problems that were perhaps...   mistreated or not fully treated elsewhere. And I was kind of, I was kind of a catchall for that. But my patients came to me one at a time. And these are patients that had tried different things and they just didn't work adequately. Like physical therapy, like anti-inflammatories, like rest, like, you know, chiropractic, acupuncture, maybe spinal epidural injections or things like that.   And they'd come in and say, well, you know, help for a minute, but just wasn't enough. I'm still having a lot of trouble with my neck or back or pinch nerve or whatever. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu is to talk about surgical options. And they'd say, well, I'm not that bad. So wait a minute. Okay, good. Cause I was hoping you would say you're not ready for that. Cause I really didn't want to offer that to you. Cause I've always been on the slow to operate side of things. So, a lot of them would say, well, how about lasers or how about.   Michelle (01:37) Mm-hmm, yeah.   Dr. Jeff (01:52) herbs or how about cannabis or how about stem cells? And I heard the stem cell one more than once and chance favors the prepared mind. So my undergraduate background is in molecular cell biology, which is kind of the stem cell, know, root of stem cell biology. And, you know, when you get whisked off from undergraduate to med school and residency and practice,   you don't really get to apply that cool science. So the nerd part of me took over and said, I wonder what's happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate, you know? So instead of going to the Stodgy Neurosurgeon Convention every year, or more than one, where the same people pat themselves on the back for saying the same things for decades, I decided I'm going to open my mind and start going to stem cell and regenerative medicine meetings.   Michelle (02:46) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (02:46) So I can offer this to my spine patients. So I did that and I not only brought back a new tool to offer them, but it blossomed into so much more. You can't get access to regenerative medicine, stem cell medicine, and I'm using those phrases sort of interchangeably here, and not say, I'll help your knee or your ankle or your shoulder or your...   autoimmune issues or other hyper inflamed states. Or, you you read more and you see accumulation of inflammation is really the aging process. And if you can fight against inflammation accumulating, you're fighting against aging. So the whole anti-aging umbrella opened up and here I am, you know, six years later where spinal medicine is only a small percentage of my practice and I love it.   Michelle (03:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   That's great. So, so for people listening, some people might be like, okay, I kind of heard about stem cells, but what exactly are they? So just for people listening for the first time, we're really not understanding that aspect of like what they are. Cause we hear about it a lot. And over the years, like you said, stem cell research has really drastically changed and has gone into so many different things. Sometimes we hear about like   Dr. Jeff (03:45) So.   Yeah.   Michelle (04:12) you know, back in the day about them growing a liver, like, you know, the possibility of growing organs through stem cells. for people who are really new to this, I would love for you to break it down.   Dr. Jeff (04:15) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   sure, let's do stem cell 101. That's great. and being a fertility podcast, this is relevant probably more than any other area of medicine because fertility and creating an embryo is, you know, creating a group of stem cells that divide and grow into a fetus who's made of all stem cells, right? And then,   Michelle (04:28) Hahaha   Right.   Dr. Jeff (04:54) then that fetus is born and it's a baby and the baby grows for 18, 20, 25 years, whatever. And that growth requires stem cells. And then after that, an adult has to maintain, has to replace, has to restore, has to regenerate and that requires stem cells. So what are these? They are cells from which other cells arise, from which other cells stem from. Okay? So, and they are...   Michelle (05:20) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (05:24) They are powerful because there are different types, right? We throw out the phrase stem cells, but when you're a one cell or a two cell or a four cell embryo, you have these omnipotent cells. They can form any part of your body. They are amazingly powerful. As those divide and differentiate, meaning take on some specific characteristics, they become less powerful and more directed, and those are called pluripotent.   And a pluripotent might be able to regrow a limb. And as you, as you, and many of your listeners probably know, there are certain species that can still do that. Like a starfish, you cut off a leg of a starfish, it can regrow it. Or a tail of a lizard or a limb of an axolotl, which is a strain iguana like creature from Mexico. So there are many examples in biology where these pluripotent stem cells can be called upon. And you mentioned maybe regrowing a liver someday.   that will probably require some knowledge of pluripotent stem cells, which are being looked at. However, after these stem cells sort of retain, we bank them in our body as adults, those are called multipotent. So they can't regrow a limb, they can't regrow an organ per se, although they can replace some organ cells and regenerate. And you were always replacing cells, we're replacing skin cells and   you know, hair follicles and all kinds of things that require stem cells. If you have an injury and you cut yourself, you, require stem cells to help come repair that. and you know, we make new blood cells all the time that requires stem cells in our bone marrow. So we are using our stem cells. This is not new. We just know more about it now. And the whole move in regenerative medicine is, is to take   Michelle (07:03) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (07:19) a lesson from that biology and use it strategically to help somebody do something they need.   Michelle (07:27) So interesting. So give us a couple of examples on how it works in the body. Like for somebody who needs it, for example, whereas like a therapy.   Dr. Jeff (07:34) Well, the-   Right. So the low hanging fruit as an example, are joint degeneration. Also called arthritis or osteoarthritis vaguely, or some people it's called bone on bone if it's bad enough. Right. And these are your painful joints. It could be from an old injury, an old arthroscopic surgery. It could be from just, you know, accumulated wear and tear. And this is a problem with the joints where the cartilage   is, you know, down and the joint is painful. You can't use it as well stiffness, et cetera. And it slows people down. And when you slow people down, particularly in their older years, they're less mobile and then they can't maintain their bones, their bone density, AKA, you know, the one way to fight osteoporosis is weight bearing exercise. So if you can't, if your joints hurt, you're not going to do it. And muscle mass, cause both bone density and muscle mass are correlated with longevity. So if you keep moving.   You maintain your muscles and bones, you'll live longer statistically. So in any event, we want to preserve joints. And that's kind of why I got into this field. I'm a structural guy of the spine and it easily extrapolates to the other joints. And most of the research, the well-published research comes from knees and other joints. And just parenthetically, most of the good published research that we follow, because we're not just shooting from the hip here.   We do shoot some hips, but it comes from Asia and Europe. The United States is behind, although we can do these things. And, you know, we can talk about that later, but the short of it is we have a really good track record of helping people with degenerated joints in reducing pain and improving function. And we do have some examples with where we've done some MRIs.   Michelle (09:09) Ha ha ha!   Dr. Jeff (09:37) before and after and the after MRIs have shown some regrowth of like knee cartilage, for example, and things like that. you know, we're not allowed to make any claims because we're not yet approved for marketing claims, but I can show examples and I have to say like you invest in stocks, know, past performance does not guarantee future results or something like that, but in medicine, never, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (10:01) Right, and each person is different and unique. Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (10:05) But anyway, it's better, listen, if you want to try to avoid a joint replacement surgery, it's worth looking into. So whether it's spine or joints, so that's the easy stuff. Low hanging fruit, I call it. The other stuff is anything with an inflammatory problem in your body can potentially have benefits from regenerative medicine on its face being a natural anti-inflammatory. So for example, autoimmune problems with hyperinflammation.   You know, like rheumatoid arthritis, thyroiditis, inflammatory bowel syndromes, MS, things that have an inflammatory component. Also, most diseases of aging are diseases of inflammation. So coronary artery disease, Alzheimer's, things like this, all have an inflammatory component. And this allows me to overlap into your area is there are some causes of fertility.   issues that have an inflammatory component, whether it's a uterine issue or ovarian failure. And sometimes fighting that inflammation, whether it's through lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, mindfulness, sleep, reducing mental stress, all those things can help reduce the inflammation and help potentially lead to successful pregnancy. The same can go for use of   regenerative biologics like stem cells, and they're not the only thing we use. And there are wonderful publications. And before we got on this, I refreshed my knowledge by doing a little homework. And there are even newer publications on use of these things to improve fertility. Now, most of these are from China because they are way ahead of us. But that doesn't mean they can't be applied here outside of China.   Michelle (12:01) Interesting. So interesting. So how do they get these stem cells?   Dr. Jeff (12:07) So stem cells and other related biologic material in the US comes from a well-regulated donor program. Typically the donors are women who are planning to have a C-section. Some of the labs even recruit the donors in the first trimester, make sure they're having a healthy pregnancy, they're not using substances they shouldn't be using, they take their prenatal vitamins, they're not in any high-risk behaviors.   And at the time of the C-section, they simply, and once the mother is congratulated with her new baby, they take the amniotic fluid, they take the umbilical cord, they take the placenta and they put them on ice in a sterile fashion and they go to an FDA compliant certified lab that can test and screen the materials, make sure there's nothing in there, no diseases, no problems, and then make it available to clinics and end users like myself.   So there are myths that all kinds of crazy stuff are happening out there, but not here in the US. We use highly regulated donor processes.   Michelle (13:19) When you have the stem cells from donors, can they be multiplied or is it just like a finite amount? Whatever is there is there.   Dr. Jeff (13:28) They can be, there are labs that put them in culture, would let them grow and divide and that's one thing that can be done. Now, just like anything, a copy of a copy of a copy tends to lose its vitality. So, things like telomere length, which is an aging marker, that changes with each division of a cell. So I don't like to use a divided material.   Michelle (13:50) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (13:58) I use just fresh first pass stuff. Maybe your listeners are a little young for this, but there's a really funny movie called Multiplicity, where Michael Keaton clones himself, and each clone is a little bit wonkier than the original. if you want a good laugh, yeah, check out that movie. But in short, I prefer the actual native original self.   Michelle (14:15) Comedy used to be so much better.   Right. Got it. Is this similar to cord blood, you know, when they, when the baby's born and they say, do you, you know, you can opt to do that and then store   Dr. Jeff (14:27) When we do self,   Yeah, let's tap into that for just a second and unpack it if it's okay. know, historically you would be offered to donate or not donate, but store your umbilical cord. And the purpose of that was, God forbid your child gets leukemia in seven years, you have a matched set of cells that they culture, they do divide.   Michelle (15:01) Mm-hmm. Right.   Dr. Jeff (15:02) and replace the child's bone marrow, you don't have to worry about a donor or a match. Now you can do that and you can also use, in some labs we'll use those umbilical cord cells as a source for any other future purpose, whether it's a joint problem or what have you, they're now doing that. In fact, you can use that for family members as well. So the reasons for a bank in your umbilical cord, and they probably won't tell you in the pamphlet, because it's not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (15:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (15:31) is much more than just, you know, just in case there's a case of leukemia, you need a full bone marrow replacement.   Michelle (15:39) So interesting. how, when you do have the stem cells, first of all, it must cost a fortune, it sounds like, it's limited. It's not something that you, because you're depending on donors.   Dr. Jeff (15:52) No, well, there's a little bit more to it. And that, and I keep using the phrase stem cells and other biologics. Let's, let's talk about other biologics for a minute because some of these other biologics are less expensive and here in the U S it's, it's affordable. You don't have to necessarily leave the country and go to go to central America or, you know, Hong Kong to get this or Europe. A lot of the professional athletes historically went to Europe, but they're, they're getting it here, here in the U S too.   Michelle (15:59) Okay.   Mm-hmm.   that's good.   Dr. Jeff (16:22) But we found out that if we gave you stem cells, let's say you came over and I hooked up an IV and we gave you stem cells, in 10 to 14 days, those would be out of your system. However, the benefits would go on for weeks or months or even some of the benefits would be prolonged. So why is that? If the stem cells are gone, what's going on? Well, it turns out the stem cells aren't really doing all the work. The stem cells are delivering cell to cell communicating and influential   Michelle (16:31) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (16:52) biomolecules, peptides, growth factors, small RNAs from cell, from the stem cells to your cells, reinvigorating and activating your cells to do that work. And those, those communication packets are called extracellular vesicles or for short exosomes. And you may have seen this, a lot of estheticians use them. You know, they can do the atom to your microneedle facial.   Michelle (17:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (17:20) It's sort of an advanced vampire facial with these exosomes. So the exosomes are probably doing most of the work that the stem cells were doing. And there are advantages. They penetrate tissue better. They're easier to store and handle. They'll cross the blood brain barrier if you want them in your brain and nervous system. And they're less than half the price of stem cells. So we can do things that used to cost, you know, 20, $30,000 out of this country.   for less than half of that here, because the big cost is the materials, these biologics. So what does it cost was your original question, but now that you know we're using these exosomes preferentially in a lot of these cases. And by the way, as an aside, all stem cells, sorry, start over, all cells make exosomes. We're using stem cell derived exosomes from amniotic fluid, which is quite abundant. So there are really no cells in this.   Michelle (18:11) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (18:19) There's no matching that needs to be done. and it's, it's wonderful. So, the, you know, for example, treating a knee, if we're trying to repair a knee, help someone heal a knee, we're asking their cells to do the work. We're just providing the, the, the re-instruction to tap back into the original factory that made that joint in the first place. And something that like that is kind of two doses of biologics, one above one below the knee.   the injection, the facility and everything where we do it as sterile. All that is, you know, in the nine to 12,000, depending on what we're doing. So it's not, it's not crazy. And IVs, if we do an IV, that's anywhere from like 4,000 to 8,500, depending on the dose.   Michelle (18:54) Mm-hmm.   And how many times would somebody have to do that?   Dr. Jeff (19:07) Maybe once. Usually the joints are one and done and then they go back to their normal wear and tear. So is it possible someone's going to come back in in 20 years and need it again maybe, but that's okay. We follow a French protocol that has published 15 year follow-up and we follow that protocol how they do it. And they've had over 82 % of the patients had wonderful results at the 15 year mark. We're waiting for them to publish the 20 year mark.   Michelle (19:10) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (19:35) So we're not making this up. We're just duplicating what's already been done and good science that's out there.   Michelle (19:42) And for inflammatory conditions, autoimmune conditions, or even fertility, well, you know, because it's secondary to that a lot of times. Do you use IV? So really get it right into the bloodstream. Okay.   Dr. Jeff (19:51) Right, right.   Yeah, I would definitely. yeah. Yeah. And that's how we approach anti-aging anyway. People are biohackers, anti-agers that come in. This is what we do. And we, we do an IV. We, we try to figure out a dose that makes sense for that person based on the budget and their age and maybe their inflammatory markers and their blood tests and other things. And then we see how long it lasts. And some people get a year, two years. Some people get, you know, six months.   Some people come in preventively and do every three months a lower dose. just, we customize it for the individual.   Michelle (20:33) And that crosses the blood brain barrier. So it's good for brain health, really for just everything. The system.   Dr. Jeff (20:37) Yeah. Anywhere there's an inflammatory burden, we'll do it. But exosomes do cross the blood-brain barrier. And let me go off script here for a second. For listeners that have been pregnant before, in later trimesters, a pregnant woman has glowing skin and her hair is growing wonderfully. And typically, there's not a lot of joint pain, maybe   Michelle (20:43) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (21:06) low back pain from carrying the weight, why is that woman in, you know, not having this great skin and all that, it's because that woman is getting a daily dose of stem cell derived exosomes because they also not only cross the blood brain barrier, they cross the placental barrier. So what we do is almost simulate that in a single dose.   Michelle (21:25) Mm-hmm. Got it.   That's so interesting. in that case, when you are doing IV, is that also one and done?   Dr. Jeff (21:37) No, like I was saying, it depends on what benefits someone gets and for how long they last. It could be depending on the person's need. Now, if it's someone who's got an inflammatory problem and they're just trying to get pregnant, could be a one and done. If it's someone that has benefited from it and wants to do it repetitively, then we would help support that and make it available.   Michelle (21:43) I see.   Mm-hmm. Done.   Have you heard of this being used and injected directly into like uterus or those areas or is it typically more like IV?   Dr. Jeff (22:11) So not into the uterus, although there are examples in men of injecting the testes where they're not producing adequate sperm counts. I think IV would be a first. So I didn't read anything about ovarian injection yet. Could that be coming? Possibly. IV is obviously an easier thing to do. So I would try the IV first. But you're right, you're going to get a higher dose if you inject directly.   Michelle (22:20) Mm-hmm.   Or ovaries maybe?   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (22:40) That might be something to look at. haven't done it. We do have some sexual health shots we do at the exosomes now where we do P shots and O shots for men and women respectively for improvement in sensation, lubrication, that kind of.   Michelle (22:53) Mm-hmm.   I know that they do PRP with the ovaries and I think also uterus. So that's why I was asking because it's kind of similar, you doesn't have the same exact substance, but it's the idea of stimulating.   Dr. Jeff (23:14) No, I completely agree with that. PRP is basically a very lower, it's the lowest end self-donated regenerative medicine. And it probably contains some cells and some exosomes in there.   Michelle (23:21) Mm-hmm. Right.   So interesting. that's really fascinating. for you specifically, like if people wanted to work with you, do they have to come visit you, your office, where you are?   Dr. Jeff (23:38) Not necessarily. So, you know, most of what we do, we start out remotely. The vast majority of my patients come from somewhere other than Las Vegas, where I'm located, actually Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Las Vegas. Most people start remotely. We do a lot of the blood tests or if they need MRIs or what have you remotely, and we only invite them to come to town if there's a reason to come to town. We do have some other colleagues in other parts of the states too that can do IVs.   things like that so we can sometimes refer. Yeah.   Michelle (24:09) Mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. It seems like state of the art. It's like the new thing that's coming out.   Dr. Jeff (24:13) and   It's a, and there are things coming. if you'll allow me to just jump there for a second. you know, we are working on some projects here at, at my practice. one of them involves exosomes that are stuffed with extra mitochondria. And for those of you that don't know, that's a small part within the cell. It's kind of a cell within the cell. we learned in high school biology, it was the powerhouse of the cell. made the energy, but it actually does much more.   Michelle (24:22) of course. Yeah.   Hmm   Dr. Jeff (24:46) And some causes of infertility relate to poor mitochondrial activity in the cells of the ovaries and things like that. So we're looking at exosomes that could be overstuffed with, that can donate more mitochondria. So that could be very useful. There are many other reasons to do that as well. And then we're even involved in a project that may be useful to help patients with cancer. And this is a particular exosome.   that comes from a certain type of immune cell, a T cell in our body, whose job is to identify, circulate around the body, identify, and then selectively remove or kill an abnormal cell like a cancer cell. So imagine that as an augmentative therapy or even as a preventative. Yeah, so we're hot on that trail. That's coming soon to a, to a re-celebrate clinic near you.   Michelle (25:36) That's fantastic.   I love that. That's awesome. That's really amazing. And what have you seen so far in regards to fertility? you seen people do this treatment and it work? with fertility, there's so many different reasons for why. I mean, it could be so many different. It's really a range of underlying conditions, but what have you noticed so far?   Dr. Jeff (26:03) Correct. So honestly, I don't have a fertility practice that's pretty far afield from what I do. I do a lot of structural work, a lot of joints, a lot of spine. We do some autoimmune and a few other things. But I have talked to colleagues, fertility specialists in the past, and we've talked about exosomes. I was at a biohacking conference in Texas last year.   Michelle (26:11) Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (26:32) the Dave Asprey event and someone came up to me and asked me about fertility. So I know it's on my radar. It's just not something we put out there necessarily. had one gentleman that had low sperm count. We had talked about doing something for him, but he didn't do it yet.   Michelle (26:34) Mm-hmm.   But have you seen or through colleagues or any studies that have shown even just IV, doing this with IV that it's helped?   Dr. Jeff (27:00) I've only read the abstract of some of the Chinese studies because we don't always get the full article translated. But most of those studies speak to direct injection. They have a lot of animal studies. So I don't have information on the clinical use of...   Michelle (27:07) Okay.   Dr. Jeff (27:25) exosomes personally for fertility, but I know that others have talked to me about it. So it's being done. And I, I did look it up online before we met today and you can actually find, there was a clinic in Europe that was advertising it for this purpose for fertility. Yeah.   Michelle (27:31) Mm-hmm.   Interesting. Yeah, which I'm sure people don't really have to go all the way to Europe. I'm sure also if you get the IV and your body's going through this anti-aging and your mitochondria are benefiting and also, which is very much linked to aging eggs. So you want to like revitalize and reawaken and also lower inflammation that also helps with egg quality and sperm quality.   Dr. Jeff (27:54) and   Michelle (28:08) So this is just definitely something that I found when I saw you, I was like, this is really interesting. I think that it's something that people should be hearing about. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, a lot of fertility clinics are going to start looking into this as well.   Dr. Jeff (28:26) Yeah, no, the one that was advertising is an international fertility group, I think, in Eastern Europe. And they specifically have a webpage on this. Now, we can't have those webpages here in the US because we are not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (28:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Right.   It's so interesting how all that works. But yeah, this is great. This is a really interesting topic and really great information. I love like cutting edge stuff. I love that it's kind of like to be continued because you're still like, You already have learned so much, but of course, there's so much more coming, which is exciting. I find it really exciting.   Dr. Jeff (29:00) Yeah.   I do too. have this renewed interest. know, I'm, I'm a self admitted nerd. So this is, gets me back into things that are very exciting. I don't get to do the same thing day after day anymore. that's, that's.   Michelle (29:19) I love that.   Yeah, for sure. So awesome. So for people who want to learn more about you and what you do, how can they find you?   Dr. Jeff (29:30) Check out Re-Celebrate because you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. That's spelled R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. And that is our website is recelebrate.com. Instagram is recelebrate at recelebrate it. LinkedIn, Pinterest, YouTube, but just type in recelebrate, you'll find it.   Michelle (29:52) Awesome. And you'll find it also in the episode notes. So I'll share all the links in there, as well as information about Dr. Jeff. So this is a great conversation. This is really, really great. And I appreciate you coming on and explaining it so nicely and really breaking it down for us, you know, people that don't have that background. So thank you so much for coming on today, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (30:03) Yeah.   you   It's been my pleasure, thank you for having me.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Caryn Johnson of @_bondlife shares her personal journey through infertility, detailing her struggles with unexplained infertility and the eventual discovery of autoimmune issues affecting her reproductive health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the immune system's role in fertility and the impact of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and environmental toxins. Caryn advocates for women to take charge of their health by educating themselves and seeking out supportive healthcare practitioners. She also discusses her supplement line, Bond, which aims to address these issues holistically.   Takeaways  

• Caryn's journey began with unexplained infertility.
• She experienced multiple failed IVF attempts.
• The immune system plays a crucial role in fertility.
• Many women with unexplained infertility have underlying immune issues.
• Stress and lifestyle factors significantly impact reproductive health.
• Gut health is linked to fertility and autoimmune conditions.
• Caryn's research led her to create a supplement line, Bond.
• Advocacy and education are essential for women facing infertility.
• Environmental toxins can affect fertility outcomes.
• Women should empower themselves with knowledge about their health.

  Guest Bio:   Caryn Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of BOND, an innovative line of supplements reimagining hormone and reproductive health, inspired by her experience with infertility. The former Vital Proteins Chief Marketing Officer launched BOND in the Fall of 2023, fusing her professional expertise with her passion to help women take a more proactive and empowered approach to caring for their cycle and reproductive health.   In 2017, when trying to start a family, Caryn learned she was autoimmune infertile. What she discovered was a stark reality - the lack of open conversations and support for women facing similar struggles. The doctor's office often left much unsaid, and the information available was surprisingly scarce. Shocked by the limited support system in place, Caryn recognized the need for a change. She leaned on her industry knowledge and contacts to advocate for herself and uncover invaluable resources. Her personal journey became a catalyst for a larger mission to make her learnings accessible to women everywhere. It was this experience that led her to create BOND.    A natural born innovator, Caryn is disrupting the marketplace with this new line of products that offers women the opportunity to take control of their reproductive health before it’s too late. BOND’s proprietary formulations, designed to preserve fertility potential and lay the foundation for a healthier body, feature science-backed ingredients that work together to balance hormones, protect egg health, and provide cycle support. With BOND, Caryn aims to address women’s health more holistically and encourage a more proactive conversation around reproductive wellness.    Caryn’s career began in marketing and public relations where she worked with many notable beauty brands and PR firms before being recruited as the fifth employee at then startup, Vital Proteins. She was the first marketing hire at the organization and ultimately, became the company’s Chief Marketing Officer leading the team through the brand’s acquisition by Nestle Health Sciences. Following her tenure at Vital Proteins, Caryn took on the challenge of leading Owlet, a baby monitor company focused on preventing SIDS, where she served as Chief Marketing Officer and successfully guided the company through its initial public offering.   Caryn lives in Chicago with her husband and two children Elijah and Ruthie.    You can use coupon code THEWHOLESOME for 20% off all products. https://bond.life       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Karin.   Caryn Johnson (00:02) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:05) It's so nice to meet you. And I know that you do a lot of amazing work helping women I also know that you have your own story that you can share. And I would love to hear your story and really what got you inspired to do the work that you're doing.   Caryn Johnson (00:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I'm here to share really the start of how I got to where I am today. And that really is rooted in finding out that I couldn't get pregnant. So we can start there and then we can get into all of the details together. But my husband and I met when I was young, early 20s. And by the time we got married many years later, we were already   most right away to start having a family. There was a piece of me inside that knew that I was gonna have some sort of issue. I don't know, you already mentioned that you do visualizations to me before we started. So, you know, like I just had this feeling whether I manifested it for myself or not. I, you know, we did the full year of trying to get pregnant to no success and then went back to our doctor.   Michelle (01:03) Yeah, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (01:18) my typical OB-GYN and started the path of IUIs, did four IUIs, had beautiful eggs, each IUI, and reacted to the medicine quite well, but never got a positive from any of those. So we were recommended to move towards IVF. found a reproductive endocrinologist in Chicago, which is where I was located at the time.   started the path to IVF and went through the process of an egg retrieval. Ended up seeing similar to what we saw in the IUIs, which was that my reproductive system performed quite well. And I was able, they were able to retrieve just about 30 eggs from one retrieval, which is quite high, borderline too high, but.   just shows like the reaction to the medicine and the overall viability of my reproductive system. Of that, I had really normal odds and was able to bank close to 14, I believe, quality grade embryos. So I was really excited to move into implantation because at that point,   I just really thought like whatever was unexplained is just kind of, you know, over to the side now. you know, all these things are just working out in my favor. So this is gonna be, you know, it for me, which a lot of women I feel like go into IVF feeling like the IVF center is like the place where you get your baby, which isn't always true. So.   I started doing implantations and I started losing babies. Prior to that point, I had never even tested positive in any sort of like regard for a pregnancy test. And I wasn't one of those that, you know, jumped right off birth control, you know, to move into conception. I hadn't been on birth control for many, many, many, many years, you know, prior to this point. But the implantations started failing and   My doctor said, this embryo was only attached for two hours, maybe a couple of hours is what they said. I just thought, how on earth, like why on earth would something attach for just a couple of hours and then that be the situation where   It just doesn't work out from there. Like what is happening? And you know, got immediately, the immediate response was bad odds. You know, this happens, miscarriage happens. Just keep going. You know, one in four, in eight, you you get all the stats and there's definitely a piece of that when you're not working with really good quality embryos. But you know, I was, I knew that everything was genetically great. knew.   and had no reason to believe that my body wasn't in working order to, you know, produce a pregnancy. So I just started pushing harder and getting a little bit more more fearful of continuing down the path of losing babies because I just, it hit me so hard. Even the loss of two hours, I mean,   I just like, I've never felt sorrow like that. And I didn't, I just didn't feel like myself or really anyone should have to like continue down that path for like the sake of odds. So I started doing my own research and I was at the time experiencing some issues in my digestive system. I also now looking back had a definite cortisol issue.   which relates into the picture, but I was a CMO at Vital Proteins at the time, which is that blue tub collagen company. And so I had a high stress level and I knew that something was going on in my digestive system. This was, you know, 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017. So.   Michelle (05:39) yeah.   Caryn Johnson (05:58) almost prior to when we really started, you know, as a world, as a community talking about the microbiome and gut health. But I sought out a naturopath who ended up doing a blood panel on me and told me that I had, you know, hundreds of food sensitivities, which is a   a classic sign of gut dysbiosis, but at the time it wasn't translated back to like an issue in the microbiome. It was treated as like, yes, you have all of these, you have all of these issues with, you know, different foods, just avoid them. And that will be the solve versus, why do you have like, you know, why do you have a hundred things that you can't eat?   Michelle (06:42) Hmm.   Caryn Johnson (06:46) like watermelon seeds up to your typical gluten, et cetera. So I just started doing my own research online and I found a book called, Is My Body Baby Friendly? It's written by Dr. Alan Beer, who is now deceased, but it's over 700 pages of the science of how the immune system works with your reproductive system, your hormones, et cetera.   in order to effectively procreate or in order for conception and implantation to occur. And that's when I realized there was something greater going on in my body outside again of just my reproductive system that we just hadn't figured out yet. So I read the book Front to Back. It's a very science heavy book. So I had to do a lot of like   thinking about new terms and figuring and trying to remember what I was learning. At the end of the book, there was a recommendation at the time, there are more doctors now, but at the time for three doctors that practice this type of medicine, which is the field of reproductive immunology. And so,   Michelle (08:01) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (08:03) One of those doctors, Dr. Joanne Kwok-Kam of Rosalind Franklin ended up being in my backyard essentially 45 minutes away in the Chicago area. So I took that as a sign that I needed to call and get additional help above and beyond my RE who was doing the IVF. And I called over there and was immediately put on a six month wait list.   So proceeded with the next round of IVF because I was already on some hormones. So I was already going through the round. I had at that point only done my own research. So I wasn't really sure what was going on in my body or if I could believe what I had read because my doctors that were helping me with the IVF weren't really like saying that   They believed in the immunology side of things. They hadn't seen enough research, et cetera. So I wasn't really getting support on what I was researching. So it was around the holidays, October-ish, when I ended up calling into the clinic and I ended up getting a call right around   Thanksgiving that they had a cancellation and I got moved up on the wait list. So I ended up getting into the reproductive immunology clinic many months before they said I would two weeks before my next IVF transfer and that was just an awesome Hail Mary. They did a full ultrasound. So tip to toe thyroid, you know, your whole stomach area inside and outside.   And then they do the craziest blood panel that I've ever done. don't know how you can even draw that much blood, but vials and vials of blood to look at immune markers in addition to hormone markers, vitamin markers, and your typical blood panel. And they called me back 48 hours later and said, need to cancel this implantation. You have the highest level of antibodies that we've ever seen.   not that we've ever seen, but that we're able to track. So you're past like where the chart goes essentially. So if you proceed with your implantation, it's almost definitely gonna end in a miscarriage because your body is gonna fight it off. And at that point I was terrified because that was like the first real something's actually wrong with you that I had heard.   Michelle (10:21) wow.   Wow.   Caryn Johnson (10:50) Everything else was just unexplained, unexplained, unexplained. And I just went into shock. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to believe. You know, I had two sets of doctors saying different things. So I proceeded with the implantation and I ended up implanting both a boy and a girl embryo. And then   started treatment right away on my immune system through the reproductive immunologist. So what they did was they put me on a series of pretty intense medications to quiet my immune system. And then I did what is called IVIG, which are blood transfusions or infusions that essentially look   to wash your blood of the antibodies that are over protecting the immune system. So I went into this protocol and I ended up getting pregnant. It was positive right away. we saw, so the clinic ended up treating me one to three times a week with this IVIG infusion, which they're about two to three hours long based on, they're based on body weight.   Michelle (11:50) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (12:14) I was in their office, you know, at least one to two times a week, also for an ultrasound. So I knew by five weeks that both embryos had attached. you know, at that point, my immune markers were even more all over the place. We couldn't get my immune system to a stable level by any means. And I ended up losing the girl embryo at seven weeks.   her heartbeat slowed and then ultimately it stopped, which is one of the symptoms or issues when you have an autoimmune issue going into a pregnancy. So, you know, that was so sad and devastating and she was higher up in the womb than the boy embryo. So at that point,   It was pretty much 50-50 odds of if she was going to end up coming out and bringing him with her or if she was going to be what's called a vanishing twin, which is when your body reabsorbs the pregnancy for the sake of the other pregnancy, which is really the best case scenario because then you don't lose the other baby.   Michelle (13:18) my gosh.   Caryn Johnson (13:36) I was put on bed rest. This was the start of my bed rest between six and seven weeks, which continued until I gave birth, basically. I was able to go to work, but that was pretty much it. And I lived in fear that we were going to lose a little boy, but I ended up reabsorbing the girl embryo. So she never came out and we just really aggressively treated my immune system.   which held on until 34 weeks when I went into basically how the immune system works during the pregnancy is during the first trimester, there is more inflammation that can be in the body and then it has to subside for the second trimester to continue successfully and then your inflammation increases and that's   eventually causes or is part of why you go into labor. But my inflammation and my immune system increased really fast. my water broke early and I ended up having him, you know, early but he was healthy because some of the immune medications included steroids. So he was a little bit bigger than, you know, your typical   34, 35 weaker. But I was able to carry my son and that really started my story of what the heck happened and why is autoimmunity so under researched when it comes to your reproduction and your fertility chances and how can I actually do more now that I have my children here.   Michelle (15:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (15:33) to support other women so they don't have to go through this amount of trauma, right? But also this amount of like research and advocacy for themselves because at the end of the day, like we just can't expect that from everyone and we shouldn't. We should be able to support. Yeah, so I'll take a breath there.   Michelle (15:40) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Wow, that's incredible story. And I mean, it's it's mind boggling, you know, that, nobody really talks about something that is so prevalent. And I do see that a lot, actually. And it could be the reason why you have unexplained infertility or why transfers don't work. And I speak to Amy Ralph, Amy Ralph, she's a   Caryn Johnson (16:19) Yeah.   Michelle (16:20) she does the same thing, Chinese medicine. And she talks about this a lot. She says, if you miscarry or you have repeated transfer failures with a good embryo and your doctor doesn't look into like what your lining is doing and how your immune system is working, then go to a different doctor because it's so important to look into that because you could spend so much time.   and you can spend so much money and just so many precious years going through so much loss for something that could be treated but can also be prevented. So I'd love to actually get your input on what you've discovered and how the gut relates to it but maybe other things that you've noticed or learned for the listeners.   Caryn Johnson (16:59) Absolutely.   Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying is just incredibly important. Like the immune system, I feel like is the secret starting point to a lot of issues. And what's happening in medicine right now is a lot of women are walking away with an unexplained infertility diagnosis, but they're accepting that as a diagnosis, right? When it's not, it's just, it's not an answer.   And if you look underneath kind of that answer, you see a lot of crazy statistics, such as over 65 % of women who have unexplained infertility actually have an issue in their immune system. And then similarly over 60 % have an issue in their metabolic system. So blood sugar, insulin, know, early signs of PCOS, et cetera. And then.   Michelle (18:05) You   Caryn Johnson (18:10) When you look, you see that there are deep, deep nutrient deficiencies happening in this group of women as well. So you're looking at vitamin D deficiencies, vitamin B deficiencies, magnesium, omegas. All of these start with modulations that occur in the immune system as well. So when you think about it on a deeper level and from the research that I've done,   Michelle (18:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (18:39) you're looking at something that's happened to you before it's affecting your hormones and triggering one of these other issues in your reproductive system. So like for instance, not only do I have, you know, autoimmune infertility, I do carry PCOS and adenomyosis as well. And for me, and based on the research that I've done, those are secondary factors.   to my immune system modulating and creating an overly inflammatory environment in my body, which then produced those issues. So we're not going up far enough in the chain of our bodies as to understanding our full systems. And again, it kind of goes back to like what's happening in medicine, which is that our doctors are   Classically trained in our reproductive organs, right? So they know our uterus they know our ovaries they understand how those work, but we need to get into you know, a new phase where we have Practitioners that understand how all of the systems are working together in our body Including our immune system and our endocrine system because they do have such a big and almost starting impact   Michelle (19:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (20:07) on what's happening with our fertility.   Michelle (20:10) yeah, I completely agree. And I also I'm wondering, like, what have you seen? Because I think that when you talked about the food sensitivities, you were saying that it's okay, I'm allergic to so many things, or I'm sensitive to so many things, but why? So like, what are the things that you've seen that cause it to begin with?   Caryn Johnson (20:28) Yeah.   Yeah. So there are a couple of things that I see as a starting factors. One is overall stress. So if you can't keep your stress in check, you can't keep your cortisol levels in check, then your adrenal function will not perform in the rest of your hormones will not function correctly, which then trickles into some of these other problems. and then you get into other factors like what you're putting in your body.   the nutrition that you have or you don't have. They're saying the American diet is still between 60 and 80 % processed food. So we're putting still mostly junk into our systems that's modulating and creating these environments that we don't want. Number three is dysbiosis of the gut, right? Which is a huge factor in   Michelle (21:13) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (21:31) overall well-being and then your chances at fertility because what happens is that if your gut is in dysbiosis, your mucosal lining is disrupted and all of the toxins that are supposed to be in this like, think of it like pipe in your body, piped to get to the outside are now permeating that pipe and moving into your system and causing again, these major inflammation issues.   these, this uproar of immune response that is hard to counteract. You know, once you have that level of bacteria and then toxins that are entering the bloodstream. And then the last kind of reason that you would be kind of in this situation is just based on what's going on in your environment. So are you living in a city, you know,   that a lot of people in Detroit, for instance, there's a bigger rate of infertility there versus, you know, your non-city residents. It's also based on the toxins that enter your home. So are you getting rid of your plastics? Are you looking at the cleaning supplies you're using, the makeup you're putting on your face? It seems simple, but this toxic overload, again,   Michelle (22:52) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (22:55) creates this inflammatory response, which modulates your immune system. So those are really the four categories that kind of put you in this place. And then it kind of gets into epigenetics, which is like, you know, you've created this new world for yourself that your body has become. And, you know, is it going to be like that or are you going to be able to get yourself out of it?   Michelle (23:23) Yeah. my God. It's so important and it's true. We hear all the different factors and actually those toxins and the endocrine disruptors can be found in food, I mean, through pesticides and that can also impact your gut dysbiosis. so it's just, it's like an entangled web and it really is like a reflection of how we're living today and what's allowed in this country, which   Caryn Johnson (23:38) Yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (23:50) I'm starting to get more and more frustrated with, you know, the fact that other countries are protecting their citizens more from chemicals and pesticides and things that are harming not only our health and chronic disease, also future. it's, it's unbelievable. And for that reason, I often tell people just go gluten free. It's not that.   Caryn Johnson (23:58) Yeah.   Gosh, get me started on glyphosate. It's so sad.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (24:16) It's not that wheat is bad. And actually, as a matter of fact, a lot of people don't have those same responses if they go to Spain or Italy, even though it's not considered GMO, they have genetically modified it over the years. So there's so many aspects. So sometimes I'm just like, just remove it, And I see people feeling a lot better.   Caryn Johnson (24:26) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (24:41) just from that, and especially with autoimmune conditions, actually that like going gluten free can really help. That's what I've seen.   Caryn Johnson (24:50) Yeah, no, definitely. It's just our food source is really sad. And it's just, it's so hard to pinpoint at the end of the day because no one really has the exact answer. But I just like, you see the data, like women who are eating on a Mediterranean diet have a lower risk of endometriosis.   Michelle (24:55) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:15) women who have like vitamin sources through green leafy vegetables don't have as much PMS. So like the correlations are there. It's just like, how do we get people to make better decisions for their body and understand like, don't be me, don't make bad decisions and then get into a position where you can't have the life that you wanted or dreamed of, or you have to fight so hard for it because   Michelle (25:16) Right.   Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:43) of choices you made earlier in your life from lack of knowledge, you know?   Michelle (25:47) Right. Yeah, totally. And then I also look at the nervous system, which is what you're, I feel like it's really linked to the cortisol issue, like the high stress, because we're constantly being bombarded with too much information. Really, I think too much information that our nervous system is able to translate. And I think that takes a trickle down effect into our bodies. I'm very big on like mind body because of that, you know, like that, that's one aspect, but of course, I mean, there's so many   Caryn Johnson (26:02) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (26:16) Like I said, it's like a web and every single piece matters. And that's what you were talking about before with medicine, looking at the body as a whole, as a functioning system, rather than just one part.   Caryn Johnson (26:21) you   Right, right. And just going back to your comment on cortisol, you know, a lot of it does start with cortisol because if you put yourself into too high of a cortisol state, your body doesn't produce enough hormones. It basically triggers all of your other hormones to act inappropriately. It goes into your progesterone receptor.   Michelle (27:00) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (27:00) pretends it's progesterone and then it goes on your thyroid and says slow down, slow down. Your body doesn't have enough energy for this and your thyroid slows. So it's really like easy to dismiss like, yeah, I'm so stressed but I don't have to be stressed today and to understanding like if your body is in a constant state of stress, like the impact it can truly have on your system and on your hormones because   Michelle (27:27) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (27:30) I guess also people think of like cortisol is like over here and then estrogen and progesterone as like over here because they work through different axes of the body, right? But it's all related because if you knock one off, you're messing with the others. So I just, I wish people ultimately would understand that cortisol is a huge starting factor to their fertility journey as well.   Michelle (27:38) Mm-hmm.   Right. Yes.   Caryn Johnson (27:57) and to a hormone journey if they're not on the road to fertility.   Michelle (28:02) Yes, because ultimately the body's always going to favor survival. And when you're in high cortisol, your body's basically or something is signaling your body to let it know it's not safe. So when you're constantly in this state of feeling unsafe, your body's going to worry about other things and put off other factors that it would normally pay attention to when you do feel safe.   Caryn Johnson (28:08) Yeah.   Right.   Michelle (28:32) And being in this chronically is just not conducive to high vitality period.   Caryn Johnson (28:32) Right.   Yeah, I feel like at least we're in a better state of mind, like as a world where, you know, 10 years ago it was chic and cool to be like chronically stressed and like drinking like three cups of coffee in the morning and like running yourself ragged. Like I feel like everyone understands a little bit more that they shouldn't. It's just about like knowing your body and actually being able to say to yourself like, no, this isn't how I should.   Michelle (28:52) It's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (29:09) be feeling. This isn't how I want to keep stress or maintain like my day-to-day life.   Michelle (29:17) No doubt that we are getting educated like never before. like, it's, it's one of those things that when like the information comes out and we start to open our eyes, it's painful because we're realizing things that are not working. However, even though it's painful, it's actually helping us in the long run. And it's kind of like the, blessing and the curse of social media and all of the technology, but the blessing is information.   Caryn Johnson (29:28) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (29:45) that is very important for us to know it's important for us to receive. So that aspect of it is really important. And then talk to us about your supplement product bond. And I know that you created that based on really your own frustration and it's become your baby. And I want to know what specifically or how does that address autoimmunity conditions for people who are going through that or?   Caryn Johnson (30:03) Yeah.   Michelle (30:14) least thinking maybe to look into their immunity in regards to their fertility, listening to this.   Caryn Johnson (30:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Bond just about a year ago. I concepted it. took a year prior to that from concept to launch.   So really it started in the world of advocacy for me. I was just really looking to help other women getting involved in some Facebook groups, some communities. you know, there's not a lot of knowledge, a lot of people talking about this yet. There certainly wasn't, you know, even just a few years ago. so I, I took a speaking opportunity in Detroit and   I went to Wayne State University, which is where they do a lot of the research for autoimmune infertility. the main head of that clinic asked me to come and speak to the researchers because they do all of this research and it's isolated into their facility. They don't actually see the impact of what's going on with women who are going through this.   Michelle (31:24) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (31:25) so I got to share my story and, you know, had a really nice day there learning and seeing their facility, their lab, what's going on. And on the drive home is really when it clicked for me that there's a lack of, or there's a gap in what's going on research wise and, know, what's being discussed and what's being carried out and brought to.   the consumer or the public's attention. And I just felt like if I didn't take a larger stand to do something bigger to help women, that we'd be many, many more years behind even. So I went back to my house in Chicago, sat in my basement and did just clinical research for months. And I logged over 300 clinical studies, all centered around   the immune system and how it relates to hormones to the reproductive system and built my thinking for original skews, which were, which are daily balance, which is our best seller conception boost, vitality, and cycle care on this thinking first. so it really started with research before it was brought forward to healthcare practitioners and then formulated out.   And a lot of the research that went into each of the products is above and beyond supporting the reproductive organs. So when you look at daily balance as a whole, it has 15 vitamins and nutrients in it. And a lot of those vitamins and nutrients were chosen to not only support hormone balance, but to take that up a level and to support the immune system as it relates to being a predecessor to hormone balance. So   adding a vitamin D, which is a huge hormone regulator, putting fiber, five grams of it into a supplement so that women are potentially protecting their gut lining better and producing those short chain fatty acids that are going to protect their gut in a way that just probiotics don't. Adding in a probiotic blend that   we studied as being healthy strains, or not healthy strains, but strains from healthy fertile women. So really focusing on these immune factors and how they pull into the world of fertility. But to the public now, you know, almost simplifying that message and making it more of like the underlying theme because we're still not necessarily totally there.   so the ingredients exists in these formulas with so much thinking and thought as it relates to the whole body. and then the formulas come out and, they're focused on hormone balance, right? As well as we have a conception product, and then we have our cycle care product, which is focused on, PMS support. So PMS, symptom alleviation, and then hormone detoxification.   Michelle (34:16) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (34:44) So they all have an immune angle, also address a hormonal need.  And the other great thing too is that you can shop at a discount as a special thanks for listening to us here. You can head over to the link. We'll link it here with this podcast episode and use the code, the wholesome to get 20 % off your order.     Michelle (34:54) Awesome. And do you have information on your site, just like support for people wanting to learn more?   Caryn Johnson (35:00) Yeah.   Yeah, absolutely. we're starting to add more and more to our site. I wrote a white paper on how the microbiome affects fertility that you can download off of our website as well to get more information. And yeah, we share a lot on social too with, you know, article connections there. So that's another great way to keep up with kind of like up and coming research that we're seeing.   Michelle (35:32) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (35:33) But yeah, I would say too, just going back to one other thing you mentioned earlier on the, on the doctor front, the best thing to do as a consumer, like when you're hitting these issues is to bring the articles in and show them to your doctor and choose advocacy for yourself. Because I found that the response from them is far greater when you have data in your hands as to why you want to.   Michelle (35:51) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:03) add a supplement, think about a different form of medication, think about a different program that might make sense for your system. So I would say, you know, that is as important as ever. And, you know, what we try to do more and more is link that PIMD article, like when we post something so that you can find the actual source and see for yourself, you know?   Michelle (36:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:31) read the information and make smart decisions.   Michelle (36:31) Mm-hmm.   I love that. That's great. I'm all about empowerment. think that we need a lot of that now. So this is great information. I really appreciate you sharing your story for people listening. And for people who want to find you and learn more, how can they find you?   Caryn Johnson (36:41) Yeah.   Thank   Sure, so our website is bond.life. Our Instagram is underscore bond life and we're, you know, a newer company. I'm still really involved on our social. So we love to take DMs and interact with people one-on-one that way. If you have any questions or want to get into, you know, what you might be experiencing and what our different products are, like we're happy to get into it with you and.   I will say for anyone that wants to shop on bond on our website, absolutely love to support you. And again, really the place to start with, with us is our daily balance product. has the baseline of nutritionals you need to support your   nutrients stores, your hormonal balance, and of course, your immune system. that is our purple bag on the website there. But Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.   Michelle (37:57) Yeah, it was great having you on and having this conversation, which I feel like is so important because it is kind of like the big question mark that a lot of people are facing when they're trying to conceive. So thank you so much for coming on.   Caryn Johnson (38:09) Yeah, you're welcome.        

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.   Takeaways:  

• Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health.
• Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts.
• Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation.
• A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors.
• Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential.
• Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another.
• Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health.
• Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles.
• Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.

  Guest Bio:   Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients’ path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.   Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach.    You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.   Sonia Ribas (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle.   Michelle (00:04) Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.   Sonia Ribas (00:11) Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.   and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,   Michelle (00:45) cool.   Sonia Ribas (01:06) Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.   Michelle (01:32) Wow.   Sonia Ribas (01:33) This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.   to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.   Michelle (02:16) All right.   Sonia Ribas (02:22) So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then   I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.   Michelle (03:08) Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.   So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.   Sonia Ribas (03:27) Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.   Michelle (03:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (03:57) I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.   Michelle (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (04:23) or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.   Michelle (04:35) And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?   Sonia Ribas (04:46) So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.   So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.   Michelle (05:19) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (05:42) It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.   So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,   At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.   Michelle (06:46) And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?   Sonia Ribas (06:56) So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.   to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.   Michelle (07:31) Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.   growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.   Sonia Ribas (08:25) Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,   plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.   Michelle (09:24) And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?   Sonia Ribas (09:38) No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.   Michelle (09:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (10:06) And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.   Michelle (10:13) Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,   Sonia Ribas (10:19) Me too.   Michelle (10:35) when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to   Sonia Ribas (10:52) Right? Yes.   Michelle (11:02) produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.   Sonia Ribas (11:12) Yes.   Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.   Michelle (11:36) And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for   not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.   Sonia Ribas (12:09) Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,   Michelle (12:27) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (12:38) You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.   That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.   Michelle (13:39) So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.   Sonia Ribas (13:44) Okay, yeah.   Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.   So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.   We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.   that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.   cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do   sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?   Michelle (16:34) Yeah, it's true.   100%.   Sonia Ribas (16:45) Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is   Michelle (16:53) my god, so true.   Sonia Ribas (17:15) How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.   unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.   Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.   which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.   Sonia Ribas (19:03) Thanks.   Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.   Michelle (19:33) Yes, that's true.   Sonia Ribas (19:52) And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.   instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.   Michelle (20:24) Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.   Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So   let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.   Sonia Ribas (21:27) Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.   Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.   Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.   And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.   Michelle (23:10) I love hot yoga. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (23:19) If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.   As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.   Michelle (24:05) Yes.   Sonia Ribas (24:13) because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.   Michelle (24:19) Absolutely.   Sonia Ribas (24:20) So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.   So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.   Michelle (25:06) Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.   Sonia Ribas (25:29) Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.   Michelle (25:31) It's a shock, yeah.   Yes.   Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:00) But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.   Michelle (26:17) Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.   Sonia Ribas (26:22) That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.   Michelle (26:28) Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:33) Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.   Michelle (26:44) Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.   that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.   and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.   Sonia Ribas (27:50) Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?   Michelle (27:56) Ooh, I love that.   Yes.   Sonia Ribas (28:19) Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.   Michelle (28:38) I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.   Sonia Ribas (28:42) I love that. Yeah, totally.   Michelle (29:05) I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.   Sonia Ribas (29:16) Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.   Michelle (29:29) I love that.   Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,   You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.   having that sense of support.   Sonia Ribas (30:37) Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.   Michelle (30:47) Yeah.   That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.   Sonia Ribas (31:09) Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.   They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.   Michelle (31:39) Yes. Yeah.   my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.   Sonia Ribas (31:59) I think.   Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.   Michelle (32:19) Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.   Sonia Ribas (32:37) Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.   and embrace it.   Michelle (33:10) Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sonia Ribas (33:16) Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.   Michelle (33:27) Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Sonia Ribas (33:50) Thanks for having me, Michelle.    

Welcome to The Wholesome Fertility Podcast! Today, I'm addressing an important topic that has come up frequently in my office: fertility-friendly lubricants. Many people don’t realize that certain lubricants can negatively affect sperm movement and reduce the chances of conception.   In this episode, I discuss the common issue of vaginal dryness, especially when using fertility medications like Clomid or Letrozole, and how this can be an added challenge for those trying to conceive. I also explore natural ways to boost cervical mucus production, including staying hydrated and making dietary adjustments to improve moisture levels in the body. Additionally, I’ll be highlighting fertility-friendly lubricant brands such as Pre-Seed and Good Clean Love, and why choosing products that mimic natural cervical mucus is so crucial.    If you’re trying to conceive, this information will help you optimize your chances and ensure you’re not unknowingly using something that could hinder your fertility.   Takeaways:

• Avoid harmful lubricants: Most standard lubricants can be toxic to sperm or slow their movement, which can impact conception.
• Natural cervical mucus is ideal: Keeping hydrated and consuming foods rich in omega-3s and antioxidants like vitamin C can help increase your body’s natural moisture levels.
• Fertility-friendly lubricants to consider: Products like Pre-Seed, Good Clean Love, and Premom are formulated to be sperm-friendly and closely mimic natural cervical mucus.
• Vaginal dryness and medications: Fertility medications such as Clomid and Letrozole may cause dryness, making it important to find safe solutions that support sperm health.

    Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I'm going to be talking about something that I have not talked about yet, but it is an important topic because I've had a lot of people in my office come in and ask me about the specific topic. And a lot of times it is very important when it comes to fertility because People often don't realize that there are certain things that can actually be harming your fertility. So stay tuned because you're not going to want to miss this. So today I'm going to be talking about lubricants. This is actually a very common thing that people use lubricants and they don't realize that the majority of lubricants are actually not great for sperm. They're either toxic for sperm or they can impact how the sperm travels and slow down the traveling and fertilization of the egg. [00:01:00] So when it comes to fertility. It's a completely different ballgame, and it's really important to choose lubricants, if necessary, that are sperm friendly. So today I will be talking all about that. So first of all, I wanted to start out by saying, talking about why women can be dry, and sometimes it really is a cervical mucus thing, and And where it comes to cervical mucus, there are definitely things that you can do to impact cervical mucus naturally, but not just cervical mucus. It's also when taking certain fertility medications such as Clomid or Letrozole, those two medications can impact vaginal dryness as well. And this can be extremely frustrating when people are trying to conceive and women are having to have the difficulty and discomfort of vaginal dryness. And at the same time also timed [00:02:00] intercourse. So it kind of puts a whole other challenge to the whole challenging situation to begin with.   So according to fertility and sterility, Vaginal dryness has actually been reported in about at least 46 percent of all reproductive aged women, which is actually really high considering. So this is really important because when it comes to baby making, it's really important that a woman feels comfortable because if a woman is dry, it can cause more irritation. It can even cause bleeding. And we don't want that because when that's the case, then you're feeling more stress in really trying to conceive. So many times people will want to find lubricants and they'll find things that are over the counter or certain products that they don't realize are actually harming the sperm. So they're using this and I've had people come in and say that they've dealt with it. the discomforts of vaginal dryness[00:03:00] and didn't really realize, but for the whole time they've been trying and sometimes it's close to a year they've been using lubricants that are not necessarily great for the sperm and didn't even realize it. So this is why I find it so important in the podcast and in general to give information to people because many times nobody really tells you this stuff. You really think that, okay, what's the big deal? It shouldn't make a difference, but it really does. And the same thing also with figuring out the fertile window. All of these things are typically not things that you learn, not in school and oftentimes not even at the doctor's office. So it is really important to understand your body and understand really like how to optimize your fertile window and how to optimize your chances of conceiving and what those certain things are that can impact. that process. So like mentioned before, [00:04:00] a lot of these lubricants can impact sperm movement and impact how sperm is able to fertilize. And this can obviously be an issue because the sperm needs something that's similar to the cervical mucus, which is why the cervical mucus is so important because it It protects the sperm, but it also is created in a beautiful way to allow the sperm to move as fast as possible and most efficiently so that it is able to get to the egg and fertilize for conception.   Another thing that you want to look at is pH levels and if there's any chemicals in the lubricants that are harmful to sperm. So, ideally, you really want your own body's natural lubricant, which is cervical mucus. And there are a couple of things that you can do to improve that. And then I'll go over some other alternatives if that is not [00:05:00] working. But really what you want to do is increase your, in Chinese medicine speak, yin. Estrogen is a really important hormone in that process during the follicular phase that leads up to ovulation because estrogen is a very yin hormone. Yin is an aspect of the yin and yang that is more moist, more cooling, more feminine. So we want to bring in more moisture and we want to make sure that the body holds in that moisture. So there are definitely things that you can do to improve that and the first thing and it's the most obvious thing and I've seen it be the single handedly like the easiest way for people to improve cervical mucus is hydration. You would be shocked At how important it is to just hydrate because cervical mucus is majority is water. It really consists of water. And so if somebody is dehydrated and I've had a lot of people in the healthcare industry[00:06:00] that come in as patients, they just say they don't have time to drink. And I really push them on this because eventually they can actually shift that. It's just easier not to drink. So it's not that you can't drink. It's just that it. Tends to be easier and then it becomes a bad habit. So a lot of these people that are nurses, a lot of people that are dentists that are in the healthcare field don't really feel like they have an option. I work with them on that and they do change that. So it is possible. Anything's possible.   It's just a matter of putting a little more effort to get in the habit. We're just have water with you to just ensure that you're having it and also having water in the morning. , listen, you know, it might be a little inconvenient to have to go to the bathroom a couple of times extra, but it is really important and it really can impact your cervical mucus in a huge way. I've had people that have noticed vaginal dryness and that they've also had many times where [00:07:00]they were not seeing the same kind of cervical mucus that they used to see when they were younger. And all they did was increase the hydration. and that within a couple of months really shifted things and they started to see it. They actually saw when they wiped that they had more cervical mucus and more like egg white consistency on the peak days. So that is actually a very easy way to do this. And as a rule of thumb, you want to take whatever your weight is in pounds, take that number, divide that in half, and that amount in ounces is what you want you know, to drink every day. So say you're 120 pounds. So divide that by half, that's 60. So you take 60 ounces per day is the rule of thumb of water. And ideally you have that in containers that are not plastic. So either glass or stainless steel. And then also make sure to filter that [00:08:00] water. So you know, just kind of a side note, I always talk about that with my patients. So that's really, really important is to increase hydration and part of hydration also is not just water is from time to time to make sure that you're getting electrolytes as well. You also want healthy carbohydrates. So carbohydrates can also help and carbs can help the yin aspect of our body. So it helps your body absorb and , keep itself hydrated. So that you're able to retain a little bit more water because that water is important to retain in order to hydrate your body in many different ways, including cervical mucus. Another really important vitamin that impacts cervical mucus is actually vitamin C. And you can also increase citrus fruits in your diet. This is something that has been shown to improve. cervical mucus. So these are things that you want to do naturally. Ideally, if you could do things naturally, then you're using your own body's [00:09:00] natural lubricant, which is optimized for sperm health and to protect sperm and to help the chances of conception. So ideally you want to try to get it where your body's doing this. Another important antioxidant is vitamin E as well. And that can help regulate estrogen in your body.   You also want to get foods that are rich in omega 3s. Omega 3 fatty acids are really great for cervical mucus. And if you think about it, just oils in general, healthy oils. So, things like coconut oil that you're taking internally. I know some people use it physically, like as lubricant. I'm not a huge fan, but, Take things oils internally because when you're increasing those oils, which are very Yin substances, you're also improving your own body's ability to moisten itself. And you can also get, , those oils through nuts and [00:10:00] seeds, which are very rich in what we call in Chinese medicine, Jing. Jing is really fertile essence. It's really essence of the body. Okay. And if you think about seeds or nuts, they're basically seeds ready to sprout, which is ultimately like what egg and sperm are. So they're fertile, they're fertile by nature, and they have everything that they need and all the resources within it's the seed in order to fertilize and become fertile. So you want things in nature to borrow from so that it improves your own ability to fertilize as well, which of course is conception.   So, here are things to consider if you were to buy fertility friendly lubricants. So, you want to find something that's water based so that it doesn't decrease sperm motility  because that would be the most similar consistency to natural cervical mucus. You also want lubricants that are free[00:11:00] from parabens, fragrances, or any kind of chemicals, and ultimately to be the closest mimicking of natural cervical mucus.  And here are some brands that are the most fertility friendly. And the first one is precede fertility lubricant. You'll see that very often it's available on Amazon, many different places. And then also good clean love biogenesis fertility lubricant. Another one is conceived plus fertility lubricant. And there's also Nautilus, the lube lubricant. And there are many different ones that you'll see. You'll also see Lola, fertility friendly lube, penchant organic. So these are things that you want to definitely look up and make sure that it says fertility friendly. And I always recommend just do your own research and really look into it. Look at the [00:12:00] reviews and find what you think is best for you but ultimately, like I said before, the best thing that you can do is try to get your own natural lubricants going, especially during the fertile window. If you have that a little bit more than, And I also recommend having sex outside of the fertile window.   I often recommend that. And in that case, you don't have to worry quite as much. I still would use natural ones though, personally, because also when your body receives the sperm outside of the fertile window, then it will, lower its immunity so that you are able to receive the sperm because it's considered like an invader through the body.   So you're able to really lower the immune system, which typically would happen in the second part of the menstrual cycle, which is the luteal phase that you're able to receive the sperm. So the more access your body has, or the more interaction it has with a [00:13:00] sperm, even if it's outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, the more it becomes open to receiving it. And another plus for that is just really being able to connect outside of the fertile windows so that there's no timing on it. And it really is something that you can put towards your relationship with your partner so you can have that connection. And ultimately that is such an important part of the whole process because I know so many people tell me.   And express how difficult it is to have to. put the pressure of timing and when they could do it. And when you open it up to more of a larger window outside of it, there's less added pressure and there's more time for connection. And as I mentioned this in my book, the way of fertility, which I highly recommend you check out because a lot of the things that I talk about are [00:14:00] all bundled up in there described perfectly because I repeat myself a lot. And this is one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I wanted to put all of my ideas and thoughts and all of my findings and lots of the information that I got from, , ancient wisdom and really the basis of Chinese medicine into a book where you can find it with exercises. But I talk about the connection between the partners and really having that connection because when you do have that connection and you really feel turned on, you will naturally also produce more natural lubricant.   So those are natural processes of the body, but it all starts with the mind. So a lot of it really starts psychologically and it's It's about connecting, opening the heart. So I talk a lot about that in the book. You can look at the episode notes to find out more on how to get that. And I will also list these fertility friendly lubricants that I mentioned in the episode[00:15:00] notes. And you can always reach out to me. on Instagram. I'm always there and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. If you have any questions you want to reach out, you can find me there. So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

In our conversation, Ylette shares her unique journey through motherhood, her connection with spirit babies, and the importance of intuition in the process of conception. She discusses her experiences with pregnancy, loss, and healing, emphasizing that these moments can also offer sacred element. Ylette also highlights the significance of community and support for women navigating their own journeys, encouraging them to trust their intuition and embrace their power.   Takeaways  

• Intuition plays a crucial role in understanding and connecting with spirit babies.
• Healing from past trauma is essential for creating a nurturing environment for new life.
• The experience of loss can be both painful and sacred, offering profound lessons.
• Surrendering to the process of conception can lead to unexpected outcomes.
• Building a supportive community is vital for women on their fertility journey.
• Trusting one's intuition is key to navigating the complexities of trying to conceive.
• Healing is a layered process that requires ongoing self-reflection and care.
• Nurturing oneself is essential for preparing to nurture a child.

  Guest Bio:   Ylette is the visionary behind Xio by Ylette, a jewelry business that draws inspiration from her Latin roots and the enchanting magic of the cosmos. As an intuitive guide, she empowers women to reclaim their voices and rediscover their inner magic, allowing their light to shine brightly and illuminate the world. Ylette holds a heartfelt belief that when we do what sets our soul on fire & let that light sparkle, we inspire the entire world to glow in harmony.   Passionate about motherhood, Ylette is devoted to helping mothers become their best selves, fostering love and nurturing for their children who will become the shining legacy of the future. Through her Mystic Mama Collective membership, Ylette holds space for mothers and women committed to walking the path, emphasizing the importance of balancing our human and soul aspects. This balance, she believes, helps us find the magic in the mundane and better navigate the journey with purpose. Through her whimsical approach and profound wisdom, Ylette weaves a tapestry of light, love, and magic, touching the lives of women and children alike.   Social Media: Instagram: @ylette_   Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Ylette   Ylette (00:02) Hi, hello, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me and having me on.   Michelle (00:07) Yes. So I have, we follow each other on Instagram. I watch your Instagram and I really love it. I loved your energy. And I was like, I really liked this girl. Like I got to have her come on. And you also, I knew that you were like working with spirit babies and I was like, my gosh, I really, really jive with her energy. So I'm so happy to have you on here. And I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of a background and how you got inspired to do the work that you do.   Ylette (00:37) Hi, so my name is Ile   I got pregnant at 24 years old, had my daughter at 24, then turned 25. And I want to talk a little bit about that story because it is a big part of what shaped me into who I am today and connecting with spirit babies along the way. But I currently channel spirit babies. I am an intuitive. I study astrology, something that came very easy to me. I feel like when I went to school, I was that kid that barely retained anything. I mean, I could memorize something and throw it on a paper. So I always had good grades.   but I feel like none of it really made sense to me and I didn't retain much. I did get a master's in psychology. I am currently by day a school counselor. And then I say a school counselor by day, I read the stars and connect with the cosmic energies by night and juggling mom life. But it wasn't until I found astrology that I felt like, whoa, I am home because it came so easy to me. And it was so intuitive that the chart, I just opened it up and I feel like I was being led.   So I always say that I open someone's chart and the chart speaks to me. I don't do, your son is in this, your rising is in that. I'm like, we're gonna open up. We're gonna go wherever the chart leads me because I feel like astrology is so vast that if you start with just the surface level things, you can be there for hours. So I'm like, we're gonna go deep, Mercury and Scorpio, Scorpio, and we're gonna go deep right away. So that astrology really opens me up and strengthen my intuitive gifts.   Michelle (01:36) That's cool.   Mm -hmm.   Ylette (02:05) So that's what I'm doing now. I'm kind of like balancing both being a school and connecting with spirit babies and doing astrology readings on the side. But what started this whole journey is when I was 24   I got pregnant with my first daughter, Sophia, really young. I mean, I think young for me. And while I was pregnant with her, I had had before, because I did suffer when I was younger, some sexual trauma and abuse, and you know, the body holds on to all of that. And so I had, I remember I had gone in for a pap smear maybe like two years before I conceived my daughter, and I had some cancerous cells on my cervix.   Michelle (02:33) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (02:44) So I had the procedure to get a leap and do and have, you know, a piece of my cervix removed and all of that. And so when I told the doctor, when I had gotten pregnant with Sophia, that I had that procedure, they were like, now all of a sudden he was a new doctor. You're high risk. We have to do a bunch of ultrasounds just to make sure that your cervix is okay and it's not opening. And so I was having a lot of ultrasounds. And when I went in for my, I believe 16 week ultrasound, there was a tech that measured the cervix and I was having different techs measure it and   What I found out later is that when different techs measure the cervix, they can get different numbers, so it's not really super accurate. So the tech was like, your cervix is super sure, and the doctor came in and he's all concerned, he's like, we're gonna have to do a cerclodge. So I imagine I was 24 years old at the time, I was so nervous, I wasn't confident, not in my power, I'm like, okay, you're the doctor, you know best.   Michelle (03:33) So for people who aren't hearing this, when the cervix is really short, it could be considered like an which can cause miscarriage. And a cerclage is a way to keep it in place   Ylette (03:43) Yes.   Right. So the stitching. So I was like, okay, let's do this. And even my mom had freaked me out because she's like, that happened to your grandma in Cuba. She lost a bunch of pregnancies because her cervix would open and they had to end up sewing her up. And that's how she had me. And then, you know, my brother and I was like, okay, well, I guess this is it. And my partner at that time was like, are you sure you don't want to think about this? And I was like, no, the doctor knows best. So let's just go. So I went in for the procedure.   I had it done the minute that I got out of surgery. I felt they had given me Tylenol coating. Now I know that it makes me throw up. So I don't take that anymore. But they had given it to me and I threw up. And when I threw up, guess I from the epidural, I urinated on myself and they thought that my water broke. So they were like, I was 18 weeks and they're like, your water, your water broke. We're going to do the like I think it's called the Fern test. They do to check if there's amniotic fluid.   Michelle (04:41) Hmm?   Ylette (04:44) until they did the test and it came back positive and they're like, for sure your water broke. Later I found out those can get false positives. So they were like, your water broke, we're gonna have to take the baby out right now. And I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, I'm so sorry. Like they didn't even hold me, they didn't allow any space for me to grieve or have all of these feelings. And I'm 24 years old just sitting there in the recovery room. My mom is next to me.   Michelle (05:00) Wow, that's so crazy.   Ylette (05:10) We get the news we're both freaked out. My mom instantly pulls out her Bible. She starts the up praying and I'm freaking out, but I was like, well, I mean, I guess, I guess if you're telling me that this is what's going to happen, this is what's going to happen. So they take me upstairs. They start that same day. They removed the sirclage that they had just put in. So talk about trauma. It went back in there. I was raw and just, and they removed it. And then they started putting servadil.   Michelle (05:31) my God.   Ylette (05:39) to start trying to soften my cervix. like, well, you you have no water, you're gonna keep leaking. Baby can't grow without amniotic fluid. So we're just gonna have to remove the baby. And the whole time I was freaking out, they put the cerclage, nothing was working. I think they put it three, I mean the cervidil, they put three different rounds of cervidil. Nothing was working, my cervix was tight. And all the while I could feel my baby moving. It's like whenever a doctor would come in, my baby was like, boom, Sophia, like, mom, pay attention.   Michelle (06:02) my god.   wow.   Ylette (06:09) elbow me, she would move around and I would tell my mom, I'm like, mom, I feel her moving. I feel her kicking. It's almost like she's trying to tell me something. So this is where it gets really crazy. And I'm just like, wow, divine intervention. So we have a nurse come in and my daughter, my due date with my daughter Sophia was July 10th, 2010.   And the nurse comes in and I see that she's wearing, because I'm big into jewelry. I didn't mention I also have like a jewelry company named after my grandmother, which I do a lot of Zodiac jewelry. So the nurse comes in and the first thing that I notice, of course, is that she's wearing a necklace and she has a cancer Zodiac on it. And I go to her, my God, my daughter was supposed to be a cancer. She's supposed to be born July 10th. And the nurse was like, what? My birthday is July 10th.   Michelle (06:47) Hmm.   Wow.   Ylette (06:59) And I was like, my God, like what a coincidence her name was Gloria. And at the time I was going to name my daughter Sophia Bella. And I was like, wow. And the nurse, she did like the little doctor. She's like, listen, honey, I hear the baby moving around in there. There's water in there. You don't continue to leak. You need to get up out of this hospital and go because your baby is fine. And if you continue to stay here, they're going to end up doing something that is going to cause you to abort this child. And I feel like she's fine.   in came another nurse right after her name Sophia. And she was like, the same thing happened to me. I had a little tear in my sack and it kind of sealed over. I was on bed rest and my son is here, born healthy. And I was like, you know what? I talked to my mom, was like, we need to go. When the doctor found out that I needed, that I was going to get up and go and like sign myself out, they came in, a specialist came in and was like, your baby can be born with this and this and this and it's not going to develop.   Michelle (07:42) Yeah.   Ylette (07:54) all of these things to scare me. And in that moment, I just felt so confident and so secure after talking to Gloria and that, you know, her coming in, which I feel like she was my earth angel with the little cancer zodiac necklace. I was like, no, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go and my baby keeps kicking me. And I trust that this is the right decision. I ended up leaving, found another doctor. The doctor's like, your cervix is fine. There's no issue with your cervix.   Michelle (08:20) my God.   Ylette (08:22) You don't even have to be on bed rest. Like, get up, do whatever you need to do. And my daughter Sophia was born July 10th, 2010, and I named her Sophia Gloria after the nurse.   Michelle (08:32) my God, that is crazy. Yes, that is insane. just, my God, you have to listen to your intuition. think that that's like the, the of the story.   Ylette (08:34) Isn't that insane?   Yep. Yep. And it's so hard to do, with all of the fear and they just instill so much fear. And if you don't do this and if you don't do that, and it took so much within me to be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm going to go. And I remember my mom and I went to church every Sunday and we would pray and I was like, it makes sense that my daughter's name is Sophia. Sophia Christ consciousness, divine wisdom. And even in her astrology chart, she has so much   old soul energy. She's a cancer rising cancer son, almost a cancer moon in the 12 house in Gemini. And I was like, this is just you came in to really activate me and really put me in touch with my intuition. And ever since then, I completely changed. can ask anyone and they will tell you pre Sophia and post Sophia, you were a completely different person.   And I had a friend who, she actually went on a fertility journey and she was having a lot of miscarriages and she heard, I think she went to a fertility specialist and they gave her the book. What's that book called? The Spirit Baby book by Walter. Yeah. And.   Michelle (09:53) Spirit Baby? Yeah.   Ylette (09:58) She gave it to me and I was just so interested in it I started reading it and that book activated me. It was almost like a remembering. So when I started reading that book and I was like, wait a minute, it makes so much sense that we can connect to the souls of the babies that are going to come in because we are souls. And at 18 years old, I had read many lives, many masters. And when I learned about past lives, I was like, it was another like remembering. was like, I knew it. I know I've lived many lives. So when I read spirit babies, I'm like,   Michelle (10:18) Hmm?   Ylette (10:27) course, this makes so much sense. So I started connecting. I started doing the meditations in the book and I started connecting with my before I got pregnant, actually this happened. Now that I'm remembering reminding what, cause my husband and I wanted her and I was like, okay, if you're listening to me, if you're close, send me yellow butterflies. Every time that I would go out, three little yellow butterflies would flow around me.   Michelle (10:44) Mm -hmm.   wow.   Ylette (10:50) Even my husband would play golf and he'd send me a picture. said, look, a yellow butterfly would land on his golf ball. And I was like, this is so legit. I ended up getting pregnant and it was the most connected that I have felt to any   I would call in the guides. I would call in my ancestors. It was just such a spiritual experience.   So fast forward, I think a lot of us went through a lot in 2020 and it's almost like if our world got turned upside down. I know for us, even like with our business, we went through these highs, these lows and a lot of transformation. And so fast forward, we moved from Miami to Orlando. And so fast forward to this year in March,   I started seeing some yellow butterflies Like I was just seeing them randomly. was like, well, maybe, you know, I'm just seeing yellow butterflies because we live in a very lush neighborhood. We have a lot of trees. Okay. Yellow butterflies. The eclipse hits. Surprise. I ended up finding out that I'm pregnant. We weren't expecting it.   but I feel like this is the thing the one that kind of transformed me because Prior to that I had channeled. I think it was in 2021 a message about mothers needing to really Cleanse and clear any trauma that is held in the womb to be able to hold the vibration of the new children   So a lot of things that I've been channeling is that these new babies that are coming in, they're really high vibe. Like their vibration is different. Even the way that we are experiencing karma, their experiencing karma is going to be different because these new souls really come to anchor the light. These are awakened souls. These are, you know, children from the stars. And I started channeling that information, but I didn't fully understand it. And I kept channeling things about the mother wound and   Michelle (12:28) Okay.   Ylette (12:41) clearing the womb and how much trauma we may be holding in our womb. But again, I was like, I've kind of dealt with that. I I went through my trauma. had the whole thing with the sirclage, but I've dealt with that. But healing is very layered. And when we think that we've healed something, another thing kind of comes up for clearing and healing. Exactly. We're peeling back the onion. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, I've healed all of that. So   Michelle (12:54) Mm   Mm Yeah. It's like an onion.   Mm   Ylette (13:11) When I got pregnant this last time, it ended in a miscarriage. And I almost knew because I had been living so, you know, when you get into a stage where you just feel like numb and you're disconnected and I felt very disconnected from my creativity, very disconnected from my heart, just kind of going through the motions of, you know, work And I didn't feel like myself. I didn't have any passion.   And so when I went to the doctor, I remember I was like eight weeks pregnant and I went to the doctor and they couldn't find a heartbeat. It's almost like I knew I was like, I'm disconnected from my heart. And the most powerful, I will say now experience that I have had has been experiencing a miscarriage.   Michelle (13:49) Mm   Ylette (13:58) because I was able to hold the pain and the joy and almost like life inside me, but then a death as well. And when I passed the baby, I passed the baby And I woke up and I was in my kitchen.   And I felt this one big contraction and I thought, the baby's coming. And I passed the baby and when I look, it was like the full baby in the sack, in the water. Yeah, I even have, I mean, it's kind of intense graphic, but I do have a picture of it because I wanted to keep that. And it was, I remember just looking down and holding her because I think it was a girl. And in that moment,   Michelle (14:26) wow.   Ylette (14:44) I looked down and I was like, wow, this, this little tiny thing in the water, just perfect, this little embryo. And I cried. And I, at that moment, I held both joy and sadness. It was like they both coexisted at the same time for me. And it's almost like this peace, the sense of peace washed over me. And I felt like this   this clearing, this cleansing, almost as if this soul, this baby, this experience came to me to help me release all of that trauma that still lingered in my womb, anything that I still hadn't dealt with, anything that was still stored in there. And it was just so beautiful and so magical. I just, I took her and I buried her. have this huge grandmother oak tree in the front and I did a whole little ritual and I just felt   like this purity come over me, like this cleansing. And I finally understood what I had channeled in that message of cleansing and clearing the womb. And sometimes it's through our grief that we learn the biggest lessons and we can hold, like if we really surrender to it, because I remember coming back from the hospital and asking God, I was like, I'm not going to ask for a miracle. I'm not going to ask. I'm just going to ask that whatever needs to be done right now.   Michelle (15:59) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:08) I give it to you, I can't hold this, I can't carry this, I trust in you and I trust that I'm gonna be led through this process for my highest and best good. And it was a level of surrender that I feel like I hadn't reached before. And when I finally let go and I let this process just crack me open, it was this unfolding that really my heart just blasted open in a different way. And...   Michelle (16:21) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:34) even though it was painful, it was so magical. It was so magical. And I think that sometimes it's hard to really surrender and lean into that when we are going through something so difficult, right? Because it's hard, pain hurts. And when we long for something so much or when we want something so bad, it's so hard. Because everyone's like, surrender. trust. It's easy to say, but it's so hard to do.   Michelle (16:46) Mm   Yeah.   Yeah, it really is. But I think about it. I think about so many things. mean, I think about Eckhart Tolle's teachings. I've always been really into his teachings. And he told a story about Buddha and that he had, a disciple or one of his disciples after Buddha died. He cried and cried and cried and cried. I mean, I think it was like he cried all night long, just couldn't stop crying, just like allowed himself to feel the depth of the pain and woke up the next day enlightened.   Because he allowed himself to walk through that darkness, like fully unimpeded. And how often do we do that? We try to stop it. It's almost like we're going through it. We try to stop it. We're trying to protect ourselves. And what do we do? We actually hold it in our tissues. Yeah.   Ylette (17:31) The darkness.   We stuff it. I tell my students that actually, I'm like, gotta allow yourself to cry and let the emotions just move through you. Feel it, go there, be vulnerable. Even if you do it by yourself and just let it crack you open and cry and release. And we feel so much better usually after, but it was a huge lesson for me this year in that experience in surrender. it's like an initiation process.   Michelle (18:01) Yeah.   Ylette (18:13) Right? That you're going to...   Michelle (18:13) I get that. I get that. my father passed away. I watched him go through the motions and I literally saw it was so crazy. I've never had an experience like this before because I never had someone so close to me, like naturally die. So they have what's crazy to me that I never knew before, that there are signs almost like you see it with babies, but they have different levels of growth.   They start crawling, they start walking, start teething. The same thing happens when people die. They start to have, they call it the rattle. And it sounds horrible to talk about, but it's not. I think that that's our own human judgments on things. Yes, it's sacred. It's sacred. And so I was like, okay, look, this is crazy because I was at the hospice and...   Ylette (18:46) Mm   Because there's beauty in that process too. That's what I've learned. Yeah, that's what is so sacred.   Michelle (19:06) you read these books and they tell you there are signs to death. Like you can certain behaviors, certain expressions, certain things, And I saw my dad looking up at one point and he was looking at something and I'm like that to me reminds me of either a newborn or a cat that zones out into seeing something that I don't see. And I'm like, this is crazy.   Ylette (19:11) Yes.   Michelle (19:29) It was almost sacred and sad all at the same time. I remember thinking like, if you just allow yourself, we like to judge and we like to label, just as it's the human condition, if you just allow yourself to move out of that for a second, just for a split second, move out of the judgment of the meaning that you're placing on this moment and what it is and the label of it.   Ylette (19:32) Yeah.   Michelle (19:54) If for one second you move out of that and you really open up to whatever that experience is, it's insane, but you can find a gift in that.   Ylette (20:03) Yes, a thousand percent. I think that, because I went through the hospice experience too with my grandfather and my grandmother, and it almost felt like it's that feeling of when you're just dancing between worlds. It's almost like being in a hospital waiting for someone to give birth and then for someone to just cross over. It's that liminal space where it's sacred and you get to hold it. And I feel like it is true what you're saying that   Michelle (20:24) Mm   Ylette (20:31) know, birth, we're always celebrating it, but death is sad and scary, but it's also very sacred. And I think it's important to also hold space for that and to honor how magical that transition can also be when we've, you know, completed this cycle and we're ready to go. And they are in tune with that space that is magical. Cause I remember my grandfather would say that he was seeing his mom and he was seeing friends of his that crossed over.   Michelle (20:37) you   Yeah, they do. They see.   Ylette (20:57) And in that moment when I was talking to him, even though I know that he was going and it was very sad, was also, wow, you're so, you're dancing with the magic, with the divine, with those moments. Yes.   Michelle (21:10) It's that connection, the portal opens. And so what I found actually, had a patient, she was trying to conceive for years and her grandfather had just passed away and she felt was just in her bones. Like she just knew that he was gonna open a portal for her and shortly after she conceived. And then she was even like after her first baby, she was on the birth control pills and regardless.   she got pregnant, which is really, I don't even know how that happened. But it was just like that. It was like something opened up and it was just like, boom, it was this connection of like death and birth and that cycle and that opening. It was really crazy.   Ylette (21:43) opened up.   Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I, yes, I I love it. And think that's exactly what I went through with this but wow, how sacred is this moment as well of loss and death and returning to the earth. And it's like, we come in, we go out and, but our souls are.   immortal, they're eternal. And I think that there is much work to be done for us to be able to hold space and really honor how sacred something like that can also be. And I think as women too, it's so important to hold space for it all. I even think that, you know, that something that has come up for me a lot now too, with this fear of like, you know, announcing like, I'm pregnant now is just what if I use it? What if   and not wanting to say anything, but I'm like, it's so important too to have community and have a community of women that know that you are pregnant and that you can share if something does go wrong with so that you don't have to go through it alone so that they can hold space for you so that whatever it is that you're going through, you have that community of friends and people that are like, my experience may be different from your experience, but I feel you, I got you, I'm holding space for you. I think as women, that is so important for us to have.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah.   Yeah.   Ylette (23:02) because the journey is personal, but it's also collective. And I have a lot of friends who are currently struggling to conceive. And I have one, you know, she's a little bit older and she's struggling to conceive. And I gave her this book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called, what is it called? Something Choice. I'll have to get you the name. Mary, is it Mary's, Rosa's Choice?   But the minute that I started reading it, it talks a lot about the mother wounds and things that we haven't explored. And I'm like, wow, there's so many things that when we're on the trying to conceive journey come up for us or when we're pregnant come up for us. it's an initiation within itself, that journey of trying and struggling and learning to surrender and learning about your power and learning how to hold your grief, letting others support you.   Michelle (23:57) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (23:57) really having that community and trusting in a bigger plan, even though it's so hard. It's so hard when you're in the moment, because we want what we want.   Michelle (24:06) It could feel, you know, for some people they've expressed, You're like stuck in this place and you just want to move on. You want to start your family and you're like, when is this ever going to happen? And then you can kind of get into this whole mindset there where you're like, what's happening, the doubt and the fear. And it could be really tough.   Ylette (24:10) Yes.   It's, yeah, I had a friend who, and you know what's been something that I've noticed and obviously everyone's story is different, but, and the friends that I have had is when they have reached that point of surrender, where I had a friend who was, think she was trying for almost two years and she was like, you know what, like I'm okay with whether it doesn't happen or not. I've come to a point where, you know, I'm happy, my husband and I, and I have my nieces and nephews and I'm okay and I'm good.   She ended up getting pregnant the month after. She's like, I feel like when I turned it over and I was just like, like, you know what, God, like I'm okay. If it doesn't happen, she ended up getting pregnant. I've heard a lot of stories where women, they make a decision where it's, know, we'll adopt or we're, and then something shifts and something happens. And again, everybody's story is so different because we don't know what one.   woman is going through versus another, whether baby is thinking, Hey mom, I really need you to, you know, move to this new house when this happens, then I'll come through. Cause babies remember spirit babies, they know and they see what we don't. So what we're trying to force something or push something or think we want it now, sometimes babies are wait, wait.   Michelle (25:33) Mm   Ylette (25:39) Hold on, I'm coming, but wait, because there's little pieces that need to be moved. Maybe there's something like, want you and daddy to get closer. There's something in the relationship where I want to bring you guys closer. it's hard for us to let go because we don't see the big picture. But in working with the spirit babies, something that I have found is that they see big picture. And when we work with them and something as simple as,   Michelle (26:00) Mm   Ylette (26:04) It doesn't have to be complicated, just journaling to them, pretend that you're, you know, write them a letter, connect to them. Hey baby, this is my lie. If I am your mom, tell them about you. Start a specific journal where you go just to talk to them and ask for signs. I'm like, usually the first thing that comes to your mind is a sign. You start creating that connection where even if you're struggling to conceive, I feel like just knowing that   you have this bond and you have this connection is so healing and so comforting because even if it takes longer, even if baby isn't meant to incarnate in this lifetime, if you're, I am a big believer, if you have that desire in your heart to have a child, you feel connected to a child, your child is there. Sometimes they're not always meant to incarnate.   Michelle (26:53) I say the same thing all the time. It's so funny. A lot of what you're saying are things that I feel deeply. Yeah.   Ylette (26:59) Yeah, because it's sometimes they're not meant to incarnate, but they're meant to serve as our guide. They're meant to work with us. So I always say if you feel that desire, if you're trying to get your baby is there and you can connect with them, whether it's through journaling, through meditation, through asking for signs and then surrendering and allowing yourself to receive synchronicities, numbers. And you start building that connection, which a lot of babies, they   Often I've heard from other women that I've talked to too is like the baby wants that. They want to start building that connection before and then they'll end up getting pregnant or it'll be a little bit easier for them to get pregnant. But babies are like, no, I want to connect with you now. I want you to get to know me now. I want to guide you. Because even working with them, they can help guide us to, if I'm waiting for my mom to get a better job, mom, hey, I'm over here. Connect with me, work with me. And then once you start   Michelle (27:40) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Mm   Ylette (27:52) Surrendering to that opening up to that you see how little things start shifting and things start moving But if you have a desire Let go of the how you got to let go of the how and just allow You know God spirit to deliver because it can look so different from the way that you thought it was gonna look like if you have something in your mind where you're like I'm gonna get pregnant by this agent. This is gonna happen by this agent. This is what and it's like no, no Let's surrender to that connect with your baby and be like, know what baby   I surrender to you. I surrender to how you want to be conceived, how you want to be born, how it's going to look. Like maybe it can even be through adoption or we just don't really know. But I do believe that if you have the desire, baby's there.   Michelle (28:35) Well, there has always been that saying, If there's a desire within you, there's also possibility in the, ethers. And that's why, that's where the desire is born, actually. It's like from that possibility, it's like landed as a seed. And so that is something that I definitely don't think we should ignore. And we should also give it the merit that it deserves. And I have...   Ylette (28:42) Yes.   Michelle (28:59) one of my patients just recently, she was starting to ask for signs. We talked about that. And she's like starting to ask for signs. And then she started asking for specific signs and the signs that she got were insane. Because she would even say a name that she always wanted for her daughter. So she knew it was going to be a daughter and she described exactly what it was and all this stuff. Like she was struggling to conceive for about a year and half before she came to me. She saw me for a whole year. So I'm giving you kind of this background so you can see that she really struggled.   Ylette (29:04) Mm   Yeah.   Michelle (29:29) but the signs were so insanely accurate. Like she would see this name on a wine bottle that she received. She would see this when she would go on a treadmill. It was like the last person's like name that they input there. It was crazy. and it wasn't like a common name. So it was really, really crazy.   Ylette (29:42) What?   Michelle (29:52) that and then other signs she said, okay, let me give you a specific sign that's different. And she would start seeing that. I mean, so she would come and tell me the stories. I'd get chills every time. And I was like, my God, this is crazy. So then finally she gave herself like a certain timeline. She said, if I'm not pregnant by this time, I'm going to go to do IVF. She went and did IVF and she was all excited. She like just felt like she really knew. She knew, she knew she did IVF. Unfortunately, completely couldn't even get an embryo.   So it was really, really sad. was devastating to watch. I felt like I was already failing her because she's been coming to me for a year and I'm like, my God, I really, I really want to see this for her. Like it was just, I can see the tears and, then she said, okay, let me just do this other one. She got a loan and everything. Let me try this other retrieval. Again, a second time, she just out of nowhere gets pregnant naturally. It just comes out of nowhere. And I was like, it was like that. And she's like, I know it's going to be a girl.   Ylette (30:42) you   Michelle (30:48) We don't know yet. I mean, she's still in her first trimester. We're going to find out soon. But she's like, I know it's a girl. Yeah. And it was just crazy. the signs, 100%. I always tell people, ask for those signs. They will come to you. I mean, the stories I heard, I can write a book just on the signs, just on the signs themselves.   Ylette (30:49) huh.   Yeah.   How exciting, you know?   Yes.   And I think that it's also important to share those stories and to listen to those stories because it also gives you hope when you're on that trying to conceive journey. And I am big on listening to other stories and I love stories of hope and everything is so different for everyone. And some babies do prefer like, okay, I want to be born through IVF. That could just be part of your journey because there's something there for you. Right. Yes.   Michelle (31:35) or a surrogate or even an egg donor. I've had one where I had a guest, she's a fertility coach. She had two embryo donors, like complete embryo adoptions. And she knew that she wanted to do it and she felt connected. It was just crazy. mean, she had a crazy story herself, but very, very interesting how that happened.   Ylette (31:49) Well.   that you feel the call and that's where that surrender piece comes in where it's like, just let go of the how. Forget of how you imagined you want it to look. Just focus on what is it that you want. You want to bring in a baby closer, start connecting to the baby and let go of the how and then just allow it to be delivered to you. Whether it's surrogate, IVF, adoption, just let go.   Michelle (32:03) Yeah.   Yes, 100%. Yeah.   Right, the how, because it's a conversation, it's a dance. And if we're just talking, it's not a conversation. If we're just telling it how to be, it's not a conversation. We have to, yes, we could talk, but also receive and kind of go back and forth and allow that.   Ylette (32:22) Mm   Exactly.   And that's that feminine, right? Because that's the most feminine thing that we can do is just being in that surrender, in that flow state. you have to be so vulnerable, which I think is why it's so hard for so many of us to really just be open and just be fully surrendered and open because we have to feel safe in order to be able to.   Michelle (32:54) It's scary. That's scary. Like it's a scary thing. I always kind of like look at even the chakras and I learned that when I was studying Ayurveda, mean, the chakras are literally vortexes in our bodies. And what's interesting is cause when I studied acupuncture, I started seeing that there are points that correlate and correspond and even have the same indication for that specific chakra location. So that to me is almost like confirmation cause it's two different sciences, but then.   What's interesting to me is that you have the root chakra, that's the first one, and that pretty much holds up everything else. It begins there, it begins with feeling safe. Once you have that rooted establishment, that's established and you feel safe and you're grounded, then you can create. That's a second chakra. You cannot create without a feeling of safety. And so it's all about feeling safe. And then,   Ylette (33:30) Thank   Yes.   Michelle (33:52) The nervous system we know, it plays a huge role on your body and also your reproductive health. And right now, the way we're living, and I'm talking about the collective, it is such an assault to our nervous system. I can't even tell you, like in so many ways. So it's important to kind of get ahead of that, not to side direct the conversation, but it's just so important.   Ylette (34:04) Yeah.   Yes.   Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're doing wonderful work in the world, which is so, so important and being able to, it makes sense why you feel that strong Kwan Yin energy, being able to hold space because you're holding space in order for women to feel safe and feel surrendered. Right? So they come to you and they're   playing in that feminine energy where it's like, this is me, I'm vulnerable. You're meeting people at their most raw, their most vulnerable moments, you know, even from a point of desperation and to feel safe with you. I'm sure like it's so important because then they can fully surrender into the process and go through it with someone that they feel safe with. Because at the end of the day, it all goes back to that, that safety and intimate relationships. see it too. When I, even when I do counseling sessions, it's like if   the person doesn't feel safe, they're not gonna open up and they're not gonna be able to receive anything. So the growth comes from first the safety, the surrender, the vulnerability and then allowing yourself to be able to receive. But that's, it's so feminine, right? Cause even when we're having sex, it's like you have to feel safe to open, to surrender and then to be, to be penetrated, to receive. And it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard.   Michelle (35:06) Yeah.   Mm   Mm   Yes, it could be very hard for sure. so for people like, cause I think that a lot of people will ask like, what's the difference between my thoughts and my intuition? what, like if the spirit baby is speaking to me, how do I know that it's the spirit baby? How do I know that it's not just me thinking or making it like a thing? So what would you say to that? Cause I think that that's a very big question for people who want to get into the intuition, want to connect.   directly with your spirit baby.   Ylette (36:02) I think that when it comes to, like everyone receives intuitive hits differently. But for me, it's always that knowing, that inner knowing, that feeling. I think that you'll just know and it'll be specific to you. And you have to trust that, I call it the little heart string, like when your heart goes, and you kind of just know, you need to trust that feeling because thoughts are more fearful and they're gonna be, no, that's not real, that's not.   Michelle (36:06) Mm   Ylette (36:30) But when you get an intuitive hit and you see something and it takes you back, like you have to trust like that wow factor, like that feeling of where we can be walking down the street, right? And I'm trying to conceive, I'm trying to get pregnant and I know that my sign is a yellow butterfly and I see the yellow butterfly and it's gonna hit me, it's gonna stop me, it's gonna go, Whereas my friend would be like, cool, a yellow butterfly. So you have to trust that feeling that you get, that gut feeling and that feeling in your heart where you're   just going to know. And your thoughts are anxiety versus intuition is it's going to sound fearful. that doesn't exist. That's scary. But you have to kind of drown it out because it's really hard to silence the mind. And the logical mind always gets in the way. But intuition isn't logical. And the more we allow ourselves to really play in that realm of imagination. And I say be a little delulu because you got to be a little delulu in order to really start testing that intuition.   Michelle (37:13) Mm   I like that.   Ylette (37:30) Is when things are going to open up and it you don't need anyone else to validate it for you There's no convincing because you're just gonna know and I always tell people that I love pointing people back to themselves because a lot of Women because I have this membership circle that I actually just reopened It's called the mystic mama collective And what I love to do is I love to point women back to themselves because I don't want you to come to me for validation I need you to trust what you are getting   and know that it is for you. Because like I said, the yellow butterfly may be mine, but yours is gonna be something different and it's gonna make sense to you. And you're just gonna know it in your heart. And the more that you start to trust that and put aside the logical mind that tells you, that's not real. Because society tells us that so many things aren't real, right? And it's this conditioning and you have to kind of just silence that and trust, continue to trust. And the more that you trust...   Michelle (38:22) Mm   Ylette (38:24) the louder that it gets and the easier that it gets to start following that intuition. Because if you're, let's say you and I are both walking down the road and I'm meant to go right and you're meant to go left, you're gonna be like, I think left. And I'm like, no, I think right. But if you start convincing me to go left and I'm like, I'm really feeling like I gotta go right, but you said I should go left. Maybe I should go left. That's when we start getting into trouble. So sometimes we have to realize that what may be true for you is great, but it's not true for me. And I gotta,   Michelle (38:44) Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (38:54) start learning to really trust myself. The more that we do that, the louder and clearer it's gonna be and the easier it's gonna get to start following our intuition. Because we know even like we know as women like you know when it's time to end the relationship, you know when it's time to leave that job, you know when things are no longer in alignment but what keeps us there longer than we need to be?   Michelle (39:09) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Yeah, right. We'll convince ourselves out of it. You know, everything that you're saying could be applied to creativity. And that's why I think that like the single most greatest thing you can do actually to impact fertility is become creative. Start to do creative things. Even if you're not considering yourself as a creative person, you are creative. We're born creative. Our decisions of how we're going to drive somewhere is using your creativity. You're always using your creativity. It may not be an art per se.   Ylette (39:30) Yes.   Michelle (39:45) But you're always creating anyway, because you have to, because that's how we think. That's how we pivot.   Ylette (39:47) You're something.   And another thing too that I was told to is find something, like, fair babies, let me know, find something that you can nurture, whether it's a garden, a pet, a plant, a project, get into that energy of nurturing something. Just practice nurturing. It puts you in that feminine energy of taking care of something, nurturing yourself, which is a huge one. A lot of times it's like, what are you doing for yourself?   Michelle (40:03) I love that.   Yeah.   Ylette (40:21) in order to create this space. Because if you're constantly go, go, go, go, go, well, then how are you going to then bring in a child who's going to need so much attention and space and nurturing? So practicing nurturing yourself to taking a bubble bath, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, even, you know, putting on some jewelry, putting on some makeup. It's a way of you honoring that divine feminine and being able to nurture yourself. Everything is connected, even though it seems like, what does this have to do with that? It's all connected.   Michelle (40:45) Yes. 100%. Yes. It's the big picture. It's the big picture perspective. my God, I love this. I could talk to you for hours, by the way. So for people who want to reach out for you, you do readings. Do you astrological readings? And could you like, yeah.   Ylette (40:51) Yes.   I know!   Yeah, so right now I'm about to open my books again. I would do like spirit baby readings, card readings. I have I do astrology readings as well and I have my membership circle. So right now I have the free community space which women can just join and we do updates in there. I am going to open up the paid membership now which we're going to be doing like moon circles and just a space to go deeper for those who really want to do the work to get in tune with their intuition and learn.   And I'm also working on a spirit baby course on how to communicate with your spirit babies. So that is coming with meditations. We're also going to look into some of the things that may be blocking like mother wounds and things like that, because that's what has really been coming up for a lot of women that I talk to is a lot of mother wounds and fear around mothering, mothering themselves, mothering others, issues with their own mothers or how they were mothered, because we don't even realize, but   Michelle (41:35) I love that.   Ylette (42:01) all of that programming or the experiences that we went through.   Yep, it's in there and that fear that we carry of, am I gonna be a good mother? That's a huge one. Am I gonna fail at this? Am I gonna? So I think the work is just bringing women back to themselves and having them just trust themselves. I'm really big on trust yourself. Don't come to me for validation. I can hold space for you, but you have the power. It's all within you. You gotta trust yourself.   Michelle (42:29) Love that. That's awesome. So how can people find you?   Ylette (42:34) So you can find me on my Instagram it's at let's while eat TTE underscore and then I have links and bio there to everything I've kind of been a little MIA from that because I've been feeling so sick Honestly, this is the first Pregnancy that I was feeling so sick and I think I kind of manifested that too because of the fear of the miscarriage from the other one So it was kind of like that   Michelle (42:46) Mm   Ylette (42:59) little thing where it's like, cause you know how everyone tells you, if you're nauseous, then it's a good sign. If you're nauseous, means things are going well. And I think I've manifested that, I swear to kind of keep me like, yeah, like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Cause I'm gonna get something wrong. this, you know, cause when you go through something like it is traumatic, you go through an experience like that and, it's hard to kind of lean into that joy. Cause you're just holding your breath. It's almost like,   Michelle (43:04) Mm   Yeah.   In check like to calm you down.   Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (43:27) I just feel like I've been holding my breath, of like, you know, even talking about it now.   Michelle (43:31) I see this all the time. It happens with like almost all my patients. mean, I would say all of them. Yeah.   Ylette (43:38) Yeah, it's hard. hard to feel that joy, which is kind of sad because then you look back and like, I wish I would have been more. But it's just telling yourself if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen. Kind of let it go. But I still dance with the... It's a dance, right? No one's perfect. I dance with the fear and the surrender and the joy.   Michelle (43:50) Yeah.   Absolutely. Yes. a good thing for people to hear because like, even though you and I, teach a lot, we talk a lot, you know, we go, we're human too. Like we still, even though I'll teach something, I still sometimes have my own struggles walking the talk and you are experiencing that too. And that's kind of like that human aspect of it that we are all practicing and going through it.   Ylette (44:06) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (44:22) even though we know, we know it, we never get to this kind of like this place of perfection, everything working out like all the time exactly how we teach it, you know? Yeah.   Ylette (44:31) Exactly. That's the thing too is, and I think that it's important too, and it's powerful for us to as teachers also be walking the walk and going through our own experiences because it does show those that we work with. Like I'm here with you. I'm human too. I don't really like like people. I'm like, don't place me above. I bleed. You you cut me. I bleed. I'm human. have anxiety, so much anxiety. The difference is that I do the work because I say that the work that we do   Michelle (44:46) Yeah, totally.   Yes.   Yeah.   Ylette (44:59) helps us get through these moments, but it doesn't mean we're exempt from them. We're gonna go through them.   Michelle (45:03) No, no, no, no. Yeah. We're not exempt. As long as we're humans, we're not exempt. no doubt. Wow. So, Ylette this is a great conversation. you so much for coming on today.   Ylette (45:09) not exam but the work just kind of helps out it kind of helps out but yeah.   Thank you for inviting me, I feel so honored.  

In today’s episode, I interview Josh Dech. In our conversation, Josh discusses the critical role of gut health in overall well-being, emphasizing that gut health impacts not just digestion but various aspects of health, including fertility. He shares his journey from being a paramedic to a holistic health practitioner, highlighting the importance of understanding inflammation, dysbiosis, and the gut microbiome.    Josh challenges conventional medical perspectives on chronic diseases and discusses the significance of dietary choices, the role of probiotics, and the hidden threats posed by parasites. He advocates for a comprehensive approach to gut health, including the five Rs of gut health, and stresses the importance of working with health professionals for optimal results. Be sure to tune in!   Takeaways  

• Gut health impacts everything, not just digestion.
• Inflammation is a sign of the body wanting to heal.
• Dysbiosis is an imbalance in gut bacteria.
• Symptoms can indicate underlying issues.
• Diet plays a crucial role in gut health.
• Conventional medicine often overlooks root causes.
• All diseases have a root cause.
• Probiotics can be beneficial but vary in effectiveness.
• Parasites can significantly affect gut health.
• Working with a professional is essential for healing.

  Guest Bio:   Josh is a Holistic Nutritionist specializing in Crohn’s and Colitis, and other related gut issues. After reversing over 250 cases of bowel disease, previously thought to be impossible to fix, he’s been connected to some of the world’s most renowned doctors.   He’s since been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer, helping educate doctors on the holistic approach to gut health, and inflammatory bowel disease; and has launched a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast.   https://gutsolution.ca   https://www.instagram.com/joshdech.health/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:02) A pleasure to be here, Michelle. Thanks for having me on board.   Michelle (00:05) Yeah, I'm very excited to pick your brain. We just had a little pre -talk. I'm excited to really get into all the details of the gut nowadays we're starting to see just how impactful it is, but not just for digestion, which is like most of the time when you hear about gut, you think, okay, how's my digestion?   It's about everything. It's kind of like the center of everything. It impacts fertility.   But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share how you got into this work.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:36) I'd love to. Sure. You know, I think my entire career, I often like to describe it as a series of accidents just pushing me into one direction or another. And I used to be a paramedic and I loved it. You know, I love being in healthcare, but it wasn't very long until I realized it was actually sick care. It wasn't what I wanted to actually be doing. You know, I picked the same people up for the same things. Maybe 20 % of your calls were actually trauma, like car accidents and stuff like that. The other 80 plus percent was medical.   So we're talking people coming in for the same issues, heart issues, diabetic issues, strokes, very preventable things. Almost 99 % of them would be preventable through just simple lifestyle, nutrition and basic changes. And, you know, I ended up leaving that career after a short little stint and got into personal training in my early twenties. And that was more what I wanted to do. And I was a woman who came to see me at age 57, right at the beginning. And this is, this story is just, it'll knock your socks off because it really shows you what's possible.   So she's 57 years old. She came to see me. She was on 17 pills and a shot of insulin for breakfast. She had nine more pills and insulin for bedtime. So we're talking 26 pills a day, two shots of insulin. She had CPAP machine to sleep. She had high blood pressure. She was on disability at work as well on the list. So 27 floors up, but there was a fire. She had to stand there and wait for someone to come get her because she couldn't physically take the stairs. And that was the state of her health at 57. And so here we are two years later, she's 59 years old now.   Michelle (01:54) my God, wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (02:02) She's off all but two medications, no longer needs CPAP. She's no longer on disability, high blood pressure gone, it's totally normalized. Even her eyesight improved. She got her glasses prescription downgraded. And now he or she is 59 years old, Michelle, it gets even better. I told you, knock your socks off. We entered into her first weightlifting competition and she broke a world record in the raw power lifting federation in Canada at 59 from previously being on disability. And this is the power.   Michelle (02:14) Wow.   Yeah   Josh Dech - CHN (02:30) really truly the human body to go from 26 pills and insulin and disability to breaking world records right till she was in her mid 60s 62 63 when she retired from weightlifting but that's what the body can do it's consistently all the time it is working to heal you to improve you to rebuild you to build you stronger yet somehow we find ourselves continually going back the other way i'm getting it must be because i'm older it must be because you know i'm just getting sick it must be just genetic it must be this must be that   She was told all of her shit was genetic. None of it was. Her body was trying to heal her but it wasn't given the tools conditions and circumstances to do so until it was and then it did. And this is the power of we'll say holistic health is a super broad overarching spectrum but dealing with basics of nutrition and gut health and wellness at its root we can see that the body is so capable of healing itself and it's the most important thing you could ever do is give your body what it needs.   Michelle (03:01) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (03:29) That's sort of how we got here.   Michelle (03:29) That is so powerful. Yeah, I that's so powerful because I, well, I think that the big thing that really gets in the way is kind of how we view our bodies or how we're taught to view our bodies. I want to say that we're conditioned to view our bodies because I think on an innate level, we do know that we can heal ourselves.   There's definitely like an innate knowing that you have and intelligence that you connect with with your body. But most people do not know based on how we're educated that their body can heal itself and that there is a choice outside of the 26 pills.   Josh Dech - CHN (04:02) Yes.   Yeah, right now you've been told there's nothing you can do right now you've been told your issues are genetic right now you've been told your only hope is medications to manage the symptoms there's nothing that can be done. But we need to understand as I learned throughout my career going back to school now specializing in gut diseases. Our guts really are at the epicenter of most of these things. And once you understand how it works, how it's connected, and how it's responsible for every aspect of your well being.   I argue sometimes that it well may be more important than our DNA. And once we can understand this concept, then we can start to look outside of what we think we already know, what we've been told. It unlocks a whole new, a whole new world for you. I'm singing a lot of it in my head now, a whole new world, but it opens all this stuff up for you. And then everything is possible. Everything you've been told becomes something of the past. Your whole paradigm begins to shift. And finally, you can look at yourself and go, wait a minute.   Michelle (04:37) You   Josh Dech - CHN (05:03) wait a minute, there, I don't have to be on these medications. I don't have to just deal with this. I don't have to just live with this because my body is trying to heal me. What is it trying to heal me from? And then you start unraveling. That's the thread that pulls apart the whole sweater.   Michelle (05:17) Yeah. And also inflammation is kind of at the heart of this because I know that it can impact so many things. know for fertility, it can impact your uterine lining. It can impact egg quality. it's very much linked with things like endometriosis. I mean, there's so many things and it just goes on and on and on. So let's talk about inflammation because that's really at the heart of all of this. Like when you address the gut health,   actually addressing inflammation. So talk about that. Talk about the Western approach to that and how you see inflammation occurring in the body.   Josh Dech - CHN (05:55) Yeah. Inflammation is always a reaction. Your body is healing you from something. And in the Westernized world, here's what I'll say. Imagine you're out going for a walk and you step on a nail and the nail goes right through your foot and you go into your doctor. The doctor looks at that nail and goes, wow, it is really swollen, really inflamed, but it's kind of just part of your body. Now there's nothing we can do about it. So what we're going to do is give you numbing cream for the pain. And if it gets infected, we can manage that as things get worse.   In worst case scenario, we'll just cut your foot off. That's absurd. may, you'd lose it. You slap the doctor, but here we are, we're going in and you got say a gut disease where I specialize like Crohn's, colitis and other gut disease. You go into your doctor, they go, wow, that inflammation is really bad. It's just genetic. It's part of your body. There's nothing we can do. We're going to manage it with quote numbing cream. So medication, anti -inflammatories. And when you get infected, we'll treat it as it comes up. And if worst case scenario, we'll just cut the organ out.   You should be slapping your doctor just like you would if it were your foot because it makes no sense. Inflammation, the very fundamentals of it is your body healing you from something. So let's apply this to Crohn's and colitis, right? Where I specialize is Crohn's, colitis and severe IBS. People are told it's genetic, it's autoimmune, there's nothing you can do. It is what it is. well, it will manage it or hopefully not cut out your bowels. Looking at this, it's not just genetic. It's not just autoimmune. It's not just unknown.   And I can break those down in about two minutes there, Michelle, really for you to basically, those are the three legs that Western medicine stands on to say you have to medicate it. I can break those with their own data and say it doesn't make any sense. But the idea being these inflammatory conditions we're told we're stuck with, yet we can reverse them 99 % of the time to full healing. Inflammation is your body healing you. We have to ask what is it healing you from?   So in the case of your intestines, they will, it's autoimmune and genetic, it's attacking your own body. Well, what if, what if your body is attacking something like your microbiome and your own tissues are caught in the crossfire, right? You get a nail in your foot, your body's not attacking your foot. That's not why you're inflamed. It's creating white blood cells or immune activity in response to attack the nail that's in your foot.   Michelle (07:50) Mm   Mmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:13) We don't question that. go, obviously it's infected. There's something that's wrong. When we get a condition like Crohn's or colitis or some other inflammatory condition, we go, it's attacking me. That doesn't make any sense at all.   Michelle (08:13) Mm   That's so interesting. So how do you see that specifically Crohn's is it the gut microbiome imbalance that's causing all of this? I think it's fascinating that you're saying this because I always talk about like symptoms being your friend. And it's actually just one of the intelligent aspects of your body to give you the alarm, to give you a heads up. Hey, pay attention.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:36) Yeah.   Mm   Michelle (08:52) So it is really fascinating to look at it that way rather than a nuisance.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:52) Yeah.   Yeah, I see it cascading down as a few different things. So number one, we all have dysbiosis now. Dysbiosis just means an imbalance in bacteria. But we know through the work of someone like Justin Sonnenberg that we can see what's called inherited dysbiosis. Our microbiomes are passed down from our mothers and her grandmother and her great, great grandmother before that. We get these dysbiotic states handed down and the more toxic our world gets them, the the dysbiosis becomes.   Michelle (09:06) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (09:26) So think of it this way, Michelle, great, great grandmother, we'll just round number just to visualize easier. Say they have a thousand microbes. Great grandmother gives birth to your great grandmother, who's given 800, who gives birth to your grandmother, who gets six, to your mother, who gets 400, to you, who gets 200 microbes. You now have inherited dysbiosis. Of course your gut's getting worse, which explains the rise of gut disease we've seen over the last...   50 to 75 years, we've seen these numbers compounding gut disease getting worse in the 1950s, Crohn's and colitis. There was about, I think it was maybe five or 10 in 100 ,000 people had this disease. To the 1970s, you're now 25 to 40 in 100 ,000 who have the disease. 1990s, you're about 150. And now today, it's 456. Almost 5 % of people now have bowel disease in North America.   And so what we're seeing now is this continual growth from like whatever it was, 0 .0005 % to 5 % growth in bowel disease is because great great grandmother had a thousand, now you've got 200. This is inherited dysbiosis. And there's a direct correlation to the amount of pesticides we use, to the chemicals we put on our food, to everything. And now what happens, this dysbiosis, this is the moat around the castle. This keeps the bad guys out.   Michelle (10:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (10:49) This is your defense mechanism. 90 % of your immune system is made there, or 70 to 90%, I should say, up to 90 % of your neurotransmitters, what your brain needs, all these leaks that happen in the gut when we're inflamed, it opens up the door for toxins to travel anywhere in the body through your lymphatic system or your bloodstream. And so we have our defenses lowered from 1 ,000 to 200, say. We don't have the same robustness to our body.   Michelle (10:54) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (11:16) which means other invaders, mode is empty, invaders can enter the castle. So now we've got three big issues that really are the roots of bowel disease. Number one is going to be microbial imbalances. So this is that dysbiosis we inherited, which lets in overgrowth of fungus, which should be in our gut, but in smaller levels it overgrows. We see overgrowth of E. coli, a big one I see. Michelle has parasites. I'm talking three, four foot worms coming out of people, which yeah, which.   Michelle (11:20) Hmm.   Mm God.   Josh Dech - CHN (11:45) has never been detected and will never be seen on your blood work from your doctor. So we see microbial imbalances. We also see toxins which contribute to this number of 200. So pesticides in 1990, right, we had let's go back to the 50s. We talked about say five or 10 in 100 ,000 to 1990 where it was about 150 to today where it's almost 456 per hundred thousand people with bowel disease. In the 1950s there was a handful of pesticides for use.   1990s it was 700 to 900, today it's 18 to 20 ,000 different pesticides approved for use in North America. And so this is a direct correlation, also looking at processed foods and packaged foods and seed oil consumption, the decrease in natural foods like eggs and animal fats, the increase in these artificial foods that we're now taking in. I'm not even arguing are animal fats good or bad for your heart, what I'm saying is we've eaten less of them than ever before and have more diseases than ever before.   Michelle (12:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (12:41) And so we have to look at these correlations and go, wait a minute, something is up. Now I'm a big fan of red meat and fatty tissues. I eat a lot of fat and a lot of meat and my body's amazing, my blood is great, right? But this is what we see, microbial imbalances, toxicity from foods, from the environment, from other places. And then we have again, a dietary nutrient deficiency. So diets, 60 to 80 % of the standard American diet is processed, refined. comes from a bag, a freezer, a box or a drive -through.   We have nutrients in our soil. Back in 2008, there was a study from the University of Texas who estimated you need eight oranges today to get the same level of nutrition that your great great grandmother would have out of one single orange due to tilling of the soil, the pesticides, right? Modern farming. So we have dysbiosis, which leads to toxins coming out or your toxins contribute to this as well. We have nutrient deficiencies because our food is more fake.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah, crazy.   Josh Dech - CHN (13:36) And then we have microbial imbalances overgrowing. No wonder your body's throwing a fit. Because since the beginning of time, whether you believe it was 5 ,000 years or 500 billion years, since the beginning of time, we've never had these issues. In fact, still today, the further away you go from the Western world, where we're eating all this food and covered in these toxins and these chemicals, the further away you go, the less disease you see. There's a direct correlation to living back naturally. Hunter gatherer tribes, they're like, what is infertility?   What do mean back pain? what are arthritis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, kidney disease, liver disease, diabetes. What are those? They don't skin issues, acne. These are things we call normal. They've never seen it before. And this is why this is how we get disease. Yeah.   Michelle (14:16) Yeah.   That is so crazy. I mean, it's really crazy. It's crazy to think about and it's crazy that this is acceptable and that there's no regulation and nobody's really protecting the health of the people. mean, enough is enough. Like it's just so frustrating because we, because people know that it's bad. They know it and they do it anyway. And, and in many countries, many of these pesticides are banned and they know that it can impact fertility. Now they're linking a lot of them.   Josh Dech - CHN (14:33) I hear you.   Michelle (14:50) So it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating for me to see my patients having to climb an uphill battle just so that they can protect their reproductive health. Like it's just crazy. And also it's interesting that you were talking about how the dysbiosis has passed on from situations or conditions such as Crohn's disease.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:03) Yeah.   Michelle (15:15) And it's interesting because like people would say, it's inherited, it's DNA. You would think that it's kind of the DNA, but it's actually, you're saying that it's the dysbiosis that's being passed on. I'm sure there's some level of DNA, like susceptibility as well, but that's kind of an interesting take or an understanding of it because you're like, okay, like that's not something that people thought about. And we know very well.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:33) sure.   Well, I'd love to...   Michelle (15:43) that the mother passes on her microbiome to the baby.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:48) She does. Yeah. I'd love to break those three things for you I could Michelle and just a matter of minutes. You know, we look at IBD Crohn's colitis. It's just genetic. It's autoimmune or there's no known cause. Well, we just talked about number one. These are the three pillars that stands on for your doctor to say it's meds for life or surgery. That's what they have.   Michelle (16:06) So you're saying this is the perspective of medicine, what you just said. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (16:11) Yeah, sorry, let me clarify. So if you've been diagnosed with Crohn's colitis or even IBS, you've been told it's genetic or it's an autoimmune condition or there's no known cause. That's what your doctors told you to date. And they say your best bet is medication or surgery. That's your only hope. What I'm saying is none of that makes sense. And I'll tell you why idiopathic means no known cause. We just talked about seven different causes inherited dysbiosis increase in toxins and chemicals. The last hundred years we've had   80 to 100 ,000 new chemicals added to our lives, most of them in our food. And so what you put in your gut, you're going to tell me doesn't affect my gut. That's nonsense. That's number one. So there has to be a cause because we've seen cases, even looking at the data per CDC, about 3 million cases worldwide in 1990. Today it's seven to 8 million. So cases have doubled, almost tripled in the last 30 years. So there has to be a cause. So it can't be unknown. Like they say it is number two.   Michelle (17:08) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (17:11) They say that it's just genetic. Well, 50 % of those seven or eight million cases, North America is less than 5 % of the population. They have 50 to 60 % of all the world's cases of bowel diseases. So when 5 % has 50 % in the last 30 years where it's blown up, it cannot just be genetic. That would take thousands of years and most of those things weed themselves out of the gene pool. The last one is it's autoimmune.   Well, looking at the actual antibodies per studies, the ones that we see, even like P. Anka, we call it. This one, 70 % of those with ulcerative colitis will have this antibody. Well, it can be caused by mesalamine, a drug they use to treat Crohn's colitis, by stress, by fungal infections, by other bacterial overgrows, antibiotics. These antibodies, only 40 to 60 % have any antibodies at all. And the ones that do,   can be very well explained by nearly anything else that can go on inside the body, such as dysbiosis states, parasites, infections, antibiotic use, the very drugs in Miran, azathioprine, the ones they use to treat Crohn's and colitis can cause these antibodies. So it can't be autoimmune. And even if it was truly autoimmune, at least 50 % don't have any antibodies at all, but you're treating it like it's autoimmune. So the three pillars they have to stand on, Michelle, to say you need drugs for the rest of your life.   Michelle (18:23) Wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (18:34) There's no hope for you. Your life is basically ruined. It's management or we cut the organs out. None of it makes any sense by their own data. And this, this little perspective shift changes everything.   Michelle (18:41) No.   My God, this is so important. It's so important that people hear this because I think that we just take it for what it is for truth, absolute truth. When we go and I've had, I've had the same situation for my irregular periods, but you know, it could be anything. And then you're going and you get an answer that, you know, just doesn't seem to feel right. And you talk about the possibility to cure diseases. Can all diseases be cured?   Josh Dech - CHN (19:12) Yeah, it's really interesting because I like to throw that question out there because the word cure is sort of a dirty word in the Western world. It's not something they are. And most doctors are because it's a huge claim to make. I cannot legally in my practice, because I'm not a medical doctor, right? I work with doctors, I'm a physician's consultant, and that's all great, but I'm not a doctor. I cannot legally use the words cure, treat, or heal in the context of what I do. But what I can say is this.   Michelle (19:20) Yeah, people are afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (19:43) I believe all diseases have a root. Disease is not innate to your biology or DNA. We even talk about genetics, right? Let's go back to the genetic weak link of bowel disease. Sure, you get five people in a room, Michelle, you expose everybody to mold. One gets really bad periods. One gets Crohn's or colitis. One gets asthma. One gets Parkinson's disease. Another one gets nothing. Because when your genes are exposed, say dysbiosis, it puts stress on the genetic links, the genetic chain.   When you're toxic or infected, it puts stress. There's a study called neutrogenomics, which is nutrients and genetics and their correlation and reactions together were depleted. So these genes are getting stretched and pulled on the chain. The weak link is the one that snaps first. So there's no doubt there's a genetic component to bowel disease or what you're dealing with, but there are things that are stressing that chain. If you can pull down the stress and give your body what it needs to simply function normally, you're going to be just fine.   Michelle (20:28) Mm.   Josh Dech - CHN (20:42) Your body's gonna do what it has to do. It's gonna heal itself. And these quote genetic conditions sort of just go away because they were never really genetic. It was just exploiting what may have been a weak link. You go, well, I had my gene tested. I've got the MTHFR, so I can't methylate. I can't do this. Every form of natural nutrients that comes from the soil, that comes from animal meat, that comes from the earth in any way, your body will use a methylate.   It's all the artificial or fortified versions. It's the folic acid. They spray on the grains and crops. It's not the actual nutrients from earth. It's the artificial stuff you can't use. So don't beat yourself up about it. Just grow your own food.   Michelle (21:11) Mm -hmm. Right. Correct. Yeah.   Ooh, I love that. It's so true and it's so nice to hear it put in that way for people listening to this that's a huge issue for a lot of people trying to conceive because for so long, they've been having folic acid and also if they're eating grains, even if they don't want folic acid, it's kind of like shoved in our faces. So we're forced to eat it. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (21:41) Yes, and folic acid is basically poison. I mean, we know, right? Tested like MTHFR, popularized gene, there's a snip in there, changes your morphology, how your genes will activate. 44 % cannot use folic acid, but doctors give folic acid to 100 % of women who are pregnant. Why? If you can't use the folic acid, it actually can cause blood pressure issues. It can cause all kinds of issues, cognitive impairment, anxiety, depressive issues, gut issues.   Michelle (22:02) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:10) probably fertility issues, right? I can't speak to that one specifically, but I would guess through the chain of events. Well, there you go. So you're being given a drug that almost 50 % of the population can't, I call it a drug because it's artificial, that you cannot use that can cause other health complications. Well, no wonder you have gestational diabetes. No wonder you have hypertension. No wonder you have these, you know, prenatal conditions. The Western world treats pregnancy like a disease state. You are sick. We have to treat you, but it's not.   Michelle (22:14) Yeah, yeah, it does. For some people, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:40) In the inflammatory markers you get from pregnancy, all these different things, they're actually normal and they're actually a biological beneficial process, which is also connected to your gut, oddly enough.   Michelle (22:52) Everything's connected to your gut. So talk to us. It really is. The more I do this, the more I realize this. It's kind of like just everything's the center. Even Chinese medicine, the spleen and stomach are the digestive couple. And every couple, there's like a yin and yang pair of organs. Every one of them has a different direction. The spleen and stomach is the center. It's kind of like where everything comes from.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:54) All of it.   Mm   Michelle (23:20) So it really is so important and that's, it really comes down to your gut health. So talk to us about like what people can do and really how like kind of take us through like the inflammatory process or the anti -inflammatory approach to your gut.   Josh Dech - CHN (23:38) Yeah, first thing is we just have to remove the nail. That's it. You know, your body is reacting to so much and I describe it like this. Picture your body's like a cup of water. I I got a cup of water next to me here. So picture this cup gets full and fuller and fuller. As the cup starts to fill up, you start to develop symptoms. I'm having menstrual issues. I'm having PMS. I'm having some infertility. I'm having some skin issues. I'm not sleeping. I'm having anxiety, depression, gut issues, et cetera. These are the symptoms you develop.   Michelle (23:41) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:07) Now when that cup finally overflows, you now go into your doctor and they say, you have this disease. Cause they're looking at everything that's gotten wet. go, yep, this is just a condition you have. The floor is wetiosis. All right. And they go, this is just what it is. We don't look at what led to it. We don't look at what contributed instead. We go, yep, it's just part of your disease process. It's part of your body. Here's some management for your symptoms. This is numbing cream on the foot. That's what it is. Rather than taking the nail out.   Michelle (24:07) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:35) And so we're looking at disease, understand something's filling your cup. And this is how we can begin reversing it. Number one, we have to look at one, what is filling the cup? So this is going to go back to your environment, back to your gut, your microbes, that when the defenses came down, the moat was empty. What came into the castle? That's number one. Number two, how do we drain the body? Cause everyone talks about detoxing. You'll hear 10 day detox, seven day detox, 24 hour detox is always something to sensationalize. But there's all these detoxes.   Michelle (25:01) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:04) Yes, your body is detoxing constantly on its own and yes, sometimes it can use some support. There's a good reason for that. But something we often miss is called drainage. Detoxing is gathering the trash. Drainage is bringing it out to the curb. So yes, your liver, your kidneys, your bile ducts are one that most people miss, gallbladder and bile ducts. That's one of the most crucial parts of healing and inflammation. We have to look at your skin, your sinuses, your lungs.   Michelle (25:19) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:31) Lymphatics, even your blood, these are all drainage or detox pathways. They help move and transport and organize toxins, but also get them out of the body. So sinuses, skin, lymphatics, et cetera. This is drainage. If we don't have this properly supported, I don't care how many parasite protocols you take or antifungal meds you take or how many detoxes you do. If it's not getting out of the body, it's just moving or it's still collecting. And so it's continuing to fill your glass. Right?   Michelle (25:56) Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (25:58) Your doctor looks at all the things filling up your glass. They don't use it to figure out what's happening or what's causing it. They use it, what's called diagnostic criteria. So they are looking simply to check the symptoms, do their tests in order to meet what fits this box. Once you have enough checks to color in this box, we then can give you these drugs in this order. If they don't work, snip, snip, here's your surgery. And the idea is again, disease is innate.   Michelle (26:23) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (26:25) You just have these symptoms, therefore you just have this condition. There's nothing we can do. And here's how we'll manage. Rather than looking at your symptoms that led to the disease in reverse engineering the process, what is filling your glass and preventing it from emptying? If Western medicine did that, they'd be bankrupt, which is probably why they don't. Because you're talking the three biggest industries, Michelle, in North America are healthcare, so hospitalization, health insurance, and pharmaceuticals.   It makes up 18 % of the entire US GDP. So 18 % of the entire income of the United States of America is healthcare. Yet they are the sickest country on earth. Six out of 10 adults have some kind of chronic illness or chronic inflammatory condition. Six out of 10, it's $4 .7 trillion a year to manage disease. It'd probably be more like 50 to 100 billion. So pennies on the dollar really, if you actually cured everything.   So there is a huge financial incentive to not actually hear anybody. That's messed up.   Michelle (27:26) That's so crazy. I mean, I think it's so messed up. I mean, it's really messed up. think a lot of people know this and there's definitely a lot of money moving around between the food industry and the pharmaceuticals, which I mean, you know, like why.   Josh Dech - CHN (27:44) Yeah, yeah. You get a CEO who goes from Bayer Monsanto, who by the way, just paid out $11 billion with a B, $11 billion in lawsuits because their glyphosate product caused so many cases of cancer. There's over a hundred thousand lawsuits pending. They paid it over 11 billion with another 30 to 40 ,000 lawsuits still pending. And guess what? They're still allowed to use the product. Even though it's been proven hundreds of thousands of times to cause cancer and other dangers.   because super unethical, we live in a horribly unethical system based on lobbying. Get one more for you. There's a chemical called chlorpyrifos. It's an organophosphate. Organophosphates are nerve agents. If you've ever heard of sarin gas, for example, used in the Tokyo subway attacks in the eighties in Syria against the Halabja people, it's a nerve agent. It is a toxin, organophosphates, particularly sarin gas.   Michelle (28:15) It's so unethical.   Yeah.   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (28:41) Well, there's 800 plus organophosphates of the same class, these nerve agents that are used on our food. One recently was re -approved for use called chlorpyrifos just back in November 23 or December 23, was re -approved for use. Well, this was being explored in the 1930s and 40s by Nazi scientists as chemical warfare on humans, but they put it in our food. Then you get people going, well, the poison makes the dose. Okay, I get that. Yeah, if it was.   Michelle (28:47) Mm   man.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:09) microns of chlorpyrifos, your body would get rid of it. But we got over a billion pounds of chemicals every year on our food that we consume. We've actually consumed now four times more pesticides per person than we used to in the 90s, because there's so many more of them. The poison that know, the dose makes the poison. Yes. But we've also 17 times our dose, of course, we're so toxic, of course, everyone's poisoned. And so these are the things we have to consider.   Michelle (29:34) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:37) But circling back, these are the toxins contributing to your glass filling up. So you want to empty the bathtub, turn off the tap, right? So let's put a hole in the toxins. Simple as the clean 15 and dirty dozen list from the EWG, Environmental Working Group. Go organic where you can, or just don't buy it, right? There's a lot of other ways. It doesn't have to have the organic label. I don't buy all organic. There's a farmer's marketing in my house.   Michelle (29:45) Yeah.   Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (30:02) And I talked to the farmers, they do one fungicide spray at beginning of the year on the ground, and then all their crops grow. That is a risk reward ratio I'm willing to accept. It's the same price, but there's one spray instead of the average strawberry has like 12 pesticides on it. And so that's what I'm willing to accept for myself. And I will adapt to the rest. And so turn off the tap, start changing out the toxic environment, start making some of these better modifications. One of the top toxins or pollutants for humans is actually recirculated indoor air. Open your windows.   Michelle (30:03) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (30:32) Just where you can, open them up, let some fresh air come in. And this we can start, this is turning off the tap. Then we can open our drainage and detox pathways. And then we can begin removing the invaders that came into the castle. And then we can begin repairing and rebuilding the walls and everything that was destroyed after these invaders came in. That's sort of the process affectionately typically referred to as the five Rs. There's sort of an acronym we can use in there for that, but that's the idea.   Michelle (30:33) Hmm, yeah.   Yeah. And a lot of people just say, then I'll just get probiotics. But then I, I'm learning, you know, that not are created equal. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like I just, the different types of probiotics, everything comes out. Another company says, ours is special because of this, that, and the other. Then there's a spore based probiotics, which are more likely to survive our entire tract. So.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:04) Mm.   Yes.   Michelle (31:26) I'd love to pick your brain on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:29) I'd love to sure. So spore based probiotics, they're more like seeds, and they're typically coded to get to the large intestine. This is where 90 % of your intestinal bacteria actually live is in the large intestine right where it connects to the small intestine and that whole area there. That's where most of them live. And so the spores will get there the like seeds that plant and grow trees that bear fruit. We have other probiotics, which you're right, not all are made equally, a lot of them will come in, they're dead, but you still can get benefits. If you think about   Let's go to pro, pre and post biotics, right? The three things I think we often get mixed up. I think of it like fish in a fish bowl. Probiotics are the fish, the living organism that swim around in the bowl. Prebiotics are fish food and postbiotics are what the fish poop out. If you look at your bacteria the same, they're your fish in your fish bowl, the living organisms, the probiotics are the fish. This is what moves around and engages with your body. They do so much for you. They produce vitamins and minerals and nutrients.   Michelle (32:04) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (32:28) help balance hormones and detoxify and help with your immune system. They do all kinds of great things, mostly through how they signal to the body. But then your prebiotics are what they eat. So this is going to be your fibers, it's going to be your carbs and starches, some proteins, there's going to be some things that they will consume, which creates the post biotics your body likes, the short chain fatty acids and minerals or the vitamins and all these things. And so we consume probiotics, a lot of them we eat are dead.   So you're still getting the postbiotic or the bacterial poop, if you will, of all the benefits, which come in, come out in a couple of days. It might be very short term and they're kind of out the door, but along the way they can have a lot of really good beneficial signaling to the body, to the immune system. It's like a radio signal. They come in and out beep, beep, beep, beep, they send signals back and forth. Your body makes changes. On the other hand, what a lot of people don't recognize is maybe if you have a condition like SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth,   Michelle (33:00) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (33:25) you have a bacterial overgrowth. Sometimes adding probiotics in, there are classes of bacteriums called bacteriocins, which will kill bacteria. So they might be beneficial in SIBO. For example, lactobacillus reuteri or rooteri, call it tomato tomata. But this one can act as a bacteriocin has been shown in clinical to be beneficial in a lot of cases for SIBO to reduce the bacteria. On the other hand, some might contribute to the problem. I had a client with parasites.   Michelle (33:42) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (33:55) And she was consuming a lot of probiotics, which were higher in histamines, which contribute to the issue because parasites also can create histamine issues. Even bone broth was bad for her gut because it's high in histamine. And so it made her issues worse. so considering we got probably a thousand, maybe 2000 species, seven to 9 ,000 strains of bacteria makes 15 to 20 million different bacteria. In fact, there's a hundred, think it's 130 times more DNA in your gut bacteria.   Michelle (34:07) Mm -hmm, right.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:25) than you actually have in the rest of your body. 23 ,000 genes or so in your human genome, 3 million genes inside of your bacteria. So you take this handful of probiotics out of 3 million different genetic strains, it's like a grain of sand on a beach. It may help, it may not. I wouldn't rely on them as a fix all. And there's a lot of ways in there where you can actually cause more problems. You could put black sand on a white beach and you're gonna notice it until it gets mixed in and disperses enough. It can create a problem. And so we have to really   Michelle (34:39) Yeah, yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:54) keep an eye on what we're putting into our body. I think throwing probiotics in sort of willy -nilly can lead to a lot of issues.   Michelle (35:02) Yeah. What about a Sporebase, which are better for SIBO? What are your thoughts on that?   Josh Dech - CHN (35:07) Well, spore based, see they're better for SIBO. I've heard that as well. I think my initial thought is look, they get to the large intestine, less so the small intestine. So we're not contributing to the small intestinal issues. But one of the contributors I do see of SIBO, for example, would be parasites. They tend to hang in the bile ducts, like we talked about there, the all important drainage pathways in the liver of the appendix and what's called the ileocecal valve. So right where your small and large intestine will actually connect.   Michelle (35:16) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (35:37) Parasites can hang out in these issues actually messing with your valves. So even if you have spores going into the large intestine, they can still backflow because the valves will say are broken or jacked up can get into the small intestine. And a lot of SIBO conditions are fecal microbes. So large bowel microbes getting into the small intestine where they should not be. And these areas can cause a lot of problems now too. So I don't know if I'd say they're better for or maybe just less bad then, but maybe it can contribute to the problem. It's hard to say.   Michelle (35:40) Mm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:07) But ultimately, know, SIBO is a really nasty condition to have to deal with, but I've seen it as one of the roots that can develop into Crohn's or colitis as well, other bowel diseases.   Michelle (36:17) Wow. And what about parasites? So what are some of the things that you can do to, because a lot of times you won't see that in like more generic tests.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:27) Yeah, they're very difficult to detect parasites. Even some of the best testing you'll get for stool testing, you're 40 % accurate unless you're finding ovum, live worms or protozoa eggs, et cetera. You know, there's about a million different types of parasites estimated that are available on planet earth. About 1400 can infect humans and you know, it's like, well, I've taken ivermectin or I've taken babendazole or fembendazole some kind of Zol, which is supposed to be good for parasites and they can be.   Michelle (36:35) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (36:55) But of the 1400 types, you might not be targeting more than three or four. And again, if your drainage pathways aren't open, you're not really going to be successfully clearing stuff. And so we're looking at parasites. say testing is relatively inaccurate. We have to go by symptoms and even blood, blood chemistry. It's not something I'm an expert in, but I do know people who are very proficient in what's called functional blood chemistry. Well, they'll look at your blood work and go, definitely you have a parasite and here's where I think it is or what type I think it is, which   To me is like wizardry. I just have no idea. I'm not that good at blood work, but it's really amazing art. so testing is not amazing for them. Most doctors believe parasites are a third world problem because that's what they were told 20 years ago in med school. But look what we have, the level of immigration we have, the level of import export we have, the level of accessibility for traveling all around the world that we have. Maybe if they used to be, but they're everywhere now to the point where if you've got a pulse, you probably got a parasite.   Michelle (37:32) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (37:51) The question is, it causing you a problem right now or not? Because parasites, fungi, bacteria, viruses, they all live in harmony in a healthy gut. With great great grandmothers, 1000 microbes. But now we've got 200 microbes, this dysbiotic state, these opportunistic parasites or fungi or bacteria now overgrow because they have the room to do so. Nothing's keeping them in check. And now they're a problem. So this isn't to say parasites are all bad. Sometimes they're very, very good.   Michelle (38:19) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (38:21) but they're now becoming problematic because we're all so sick.   Michelle (38:24) So what do you do and what are some of the symptoms that people can have?   Josh Dech - CHN (38:28) so many. So we look at parasites, again, going through symptomatology, I like that we bring this through, because symptoms often speak louder than testing. That's something you have to keep in mind. Again, a parasite test at 40 % accuracy can come back negative 10 times in a row. So we have to look at, you know, abdominal pain. Do you have pain when you palpate or press around the liver, the gallbladder? Do you have all your organs? So looking at tonsils, appendix, gallbladder, if you've lost those, there may be a parasite route.   Michelle (38:38) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (38:58) back pain, hip pain, like joint pains, seasonal allergies or other allergies that seem to come up. If you have gut issues and gut symptoms, for example, that may be come and go. So every couple of weeks up and then they're down or seasonally, for example, this could be parasites due to their life cycles, high cholesterol or liver enzymes that are elevated, frequent sinus infections, anemia, because parasites will actually eat iron. They can eat   like lungs, liver, kidneys, they can eat iron, they can eat lymphatic fluids if you've got lymphatic issues, mumps chronically, tonsillitis chronically, these can be parasitic issues in nature. Even infertility. Parasites love especially female reproductive organs. So PCOS can sometimes be a parasitic issue at the root or a metabolic issue which may have a parasitic component because parasites can get to these areas in your body.   actually encapsulate them in a cyst or a tumor, hence cancers, which is actually a protective mechanism or thought to be protective, where it's trying to enclose these things in rather than DNA mutating and causing a problem. We can have anxiety, depression, hair loss, early hair loss, liver enzymes are elevated, think I mentioned that, psoriasis, eczema, really classic symptoms, rashes and hives, that's just a handful. There's probably 50 or 60 symptoms that could be parasites.   but we have to go back to context. You know, have rashes and hives, okay, well could be something else. There could be parasites. Let's look at the rest of the symptoms. I'm not saying if you have one of these things or all these things, I mean, if you have all these things, probably parasites, but if you just have a few, it could be something else, but I wouldn't rule parasites out.   Michelle (40:34) Mm   And what do you usually do to treat them?   Josh Dech - CHN (40:43) Great question. This is something that can be very finicky. Again, a lot of people I talk to, you're hearing this going, I've taken a parasite protocol, I've done a cleanse, it didn't help. You're trying to evict tenants from the building. Are the doors unlocked? And so if you're trying to get rid of parasites, is your drainage open? So we have to work on drainage support. What we do with clients, it's a combination of a lot of things. There's supplementation, there's nutritional, there's lifestyle. Sometimes it's a combination of acupuncture enemas, like coffee enemas.   Michelle (40:57) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (41:13) There's a lot of different things we can utilize the open drainage pathways, but everyone's different. And it's something that it really should be done on a supervision. I know you're hearing this right now. Go, I can do that. I can do acupuncture might help you. It might not. It is, but I don't want you putting yourself in the hospital. I have to say that because we can move too many toxins too quickly. You can actually create a commonly known Herc's Heimer reaction, Herc's H -R -X. And this Herc's Heimer reaction is just   Michelle (41:13) Mm   Mm   Yeah, that's important.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (41:41) Basically, you're taking too many toxins, you're mobilizing them and your body can't get rid of them properly and you're making yourself very ill. So this is definitely a professional supervision issue, but these are things we can do. So number one is drainage in tandem with or post actually getting rid of or reducing your toxic loads for no longer, right? Turn off the tap. We have to open the drainage pathway so things can get out. We have to begin removing very systematically the problem. I've got clients say 10 of them who are taking the exact same parasite protocol for parasites.   Michelle (41:45) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (42:11) but what they're actually doing is that they're taking them 10 different ways, right? Some of them are tapering in one day on, seven off, one day on, six off, one and five. Some are doing full moon protocol. Some are high dose, some are low. Some are cycling through. Some are consistent dosing. Everyone's different based on their presentations and going the wrong way can make people very, very sick as well. So it's a bit of a tailored and catered process, but the gist would be drainage support.   antiparasitic, supporting what your body lacks or needs, mitochondrial support, so cellular health and cellular well -being, because that's really where drainage and detoxing starts, is at the cellular level, not the macro level so much. And this is sort of a brief overview of that might look like.   Michelle (42:55) So interesting. And another question that I have, a lot of times you'll hear about the keto diet and how I'm not big on fad diets in general, because it's like everything's customized, but you hear about the benefits for some people. The thing with that is that there's barely any fiber. It's really, really low in fiber. So I just wanted to get your take on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (43:05) Sure.   Sure. It was really interesting. Look at someone like Michaela Peterson, right? Does an amazing job with the lion diet, which is basically red meat, salt and water. I am not against it. I think it's a great therapeutic diet. I'm not sold entirely. I've met with some amazing carnivore doctors and specialists, but I will say I don't believe plants are inherently bad for humans. I do believe an animal based diet tends to be better, but the question has to be asked, is it the pesticides and the chemicals on our food that makes plants the problem?   Is it plants themselves? Is it the GMOs and the crops that never existed even 100 or 500 years ago that were not accustomed to eating? The arguments can be made for dairy, where humans have only really domesticated dairy animals for 10 to 15 ,000 years. So are we really adapted to eating dairy? Have we developed or evolved these enzymes and processes to properly assimilate dairy? So the argument about plants versus animal -based   I can put it on a very macro level without getting to the nitty gritty and say this. The bigger fish in the bowl, we talked about prebiotics, they eat fiber, right? The bigger fish in the fish bowl will eat first. If you have an overgrowth of bad bacterium, we'll say, we'll say opportunistic, they're causing you problems and they eat first, they poop out problematic things. So going to the lion diet, you're not gonna get nearly as many microbes eating meat, for example, as they would fibers or starches or sugars. So if you cut those things out right away,   you've reduced the poop or the byproducts, we call them endotoxins of these microbes by simply cutting fiber. And so you may be starving some out, you may be just not getting over gross, you may be no longer contributing to poisons or toxins so much. And there's two arguments to be made. Well, the beef or the animal might filter the toxins. The other argument is what's called bio magnification, which is where it condenses all these toxins in the tissues, which you then consume. But you can't argue with the data, millions of people.   Michelle (44:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (45:15) all over the world go carnivore or keto and feel better. The question is, do I believe carbs are inherently bad for you? No. Do I believe they should be more sparingly? Yes, just simply biologically. but, but, but this is the big but, we have to understand that your current state of health and how it's utilizing what you're putting into it makes all the difference. You could put gasoline into a car and it's going to drive for miles. You put gasoline into a car that's on fire and it's going to make a bigger fire.   Michelle (45:19) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (45:45) So it's not the fuel source necessarily that I believe is the problem as much as the body you're putting it into and what's going on on a microbial level.   Michelle (45:51) Yes. that's so important. And I think that, yeah, a lot of what you're saying is so important, but that's really the key crux of it is that your body and your body's condition and your snapshot in time at this moment has unique needs, even unique to five years ago, the same body, which actually it's a different body because the body changes all the time. So it is really important that you work with somebody.   Josh Dech - CHN (46:04) Yeah.   Michelle (46:17) and not do this at home on your own and not self -diagnose because it could be very tempting to do. This is great information, but just hold yourself back from self -diagnosing. Reach out to people like Josh. So actually my next question, if people do want to work with you, how can they reach you? How can they find out more about your work and what you do and get help with their own gut and inflammation?   Josh Dech - CHN (46:19) Yes.   Yeah, I'd love to be able to help Michelle. The quickest way to reach me, you can find everything you need through our website, gutsolution .ca. We got clients in 26 different countries and all the concurrent time zones. So don't worry about where you're located. We can help. That's gutsolution, all singular, .ca for Canada. You can find our podcast, Reversible, where it's about the gut. It's all how all things impact the gut and vice versa. Michelle, we had you record an episode there recently and it's how our gut and our world interact. It's called Reversible.   Reverse Able, the Ultimate Gut Health podcast. And there's also one we released recently about, I'd say six or eight weeks ago, it's called Reversing Crohn's and Colitis Naturally. And it's all about just Crohn's, Colitis and the cruxes and the roots and how we actually get at the root causes of these. But all that can be found, the website, the podcast, contact, help information can all be found at gutsolution .ca.   Michelle (47:37) And how do you work with people?   Josh Dech - CHN (47:38) Yeah, contrary to what most people believe, we don't actually need to see you in person at all. Strictly through symptoms, I get photos if we need them. We'll have you take pictures of your fingernails, pictures of your tongue, for example. It's part of Chinese medicine, as you know, can give us lots of information. We look at blood work. We'll look at your symptoms. We'll look at you as an individual. And we'll spend, I'll spend 30 minutes to an hour on a first call. We get someone through the program and register. There's probably 100, 200 different questions.   Michelle (47:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (48:08) Extremely thorough intake we do secondary interviews then we do programming and we actually work with you on a weekly basis for 16 weeks very hand -holding process and that's what it looks like because Dealing with bowel disease, know that things can change in an instant You can go from healthy to a flare or healthy to sick to constipation to diarrhea What your doctor does is here's a med see me in three to six months. We'll see how you're doing That doesn't help. You're barely managing and your body can be so finicky   Michelle (48:33) Mm Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (48:37) And so our job is 16 weeks. And I'll tell you, Michelle, we had a lady recently came out of our program was working not with myself, actually, with Curtis, one of our other specialists. And 16 weeks, she came out after 15 years. She was diagnosed in 2013, a couple of years of bowel disease before that. Her colon was so severe, she described it as squirrels with razor blades running around on her insides. So severe, they were on the cusp of cutting her bowels out. 16 weeks, she came back, her doctors jaw on the floor is like, I've never seen anything like this.   Michelle (48:58) my God, wow. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:06) perfect colonoscopy. had one little speck left that we're still obviously going to be fixing, but it took 16 weeks. That's it. And not everybody responds as well. Some respond quicker, but this is what's possible. And I just really want to encourage just if you're listening to this right now, you're like, I've got Crohn's colitis or even severe IBS. I've been told it's genetic autoimmune. There's no known cause. So much can be done. Just start with the website. There's podcasts on there. There's information on that. There's videos on there.   Michelle (49:14) Wow.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:35) There's so much about it that we just want to creak that door open for you and show you what's possible. But again, just head to gut solution .ca and do some diving.   Michelle (49:44) Awesome. Josh, this is amazing. Really, really amazing. And also so important. I can't even stress it enough. I see it a lot even in my patients that come in. and something that I think everybody listening to this, if you're trying to conceive,   you have to go check out Josh and listen to his podcast and learn more because I think it's just so valuable. So thank you so much for coming on today. This is great.   Josh Dech - CHN (50:07) Thank you.   It's been a pleasure, Michelle. And if I could leave one little nugget, if you're considering, if you're trying to conceive or have plans in the future, get ahead of the gut because you can, we talked about great grandma passing down this dysbiosis to you, you can pass down disease to your children. It'll be called genetic. I've seen babies, know, infants. I'm talking a couple of months to two, three years old with bowel disease because we just didn't know ahead of time that we need to be dealing with our gut issues before having children.   because these are the issues we can pass. All those opportunistic microbes, the fungi and parasites, they will come from you to your baby. And this goes both ways. The sperm quality has a lot more to do with it than we used to. We used to say, well, everything's up to mom. It is in development, but even the sperm quality, if mom or dad have gut issues, there's a much higher risk for your baby having some kind of issue down the road. And I just really want to encourage you, if you think there might be gut stuff where you know there's a diagnosis, start there.   long before conception, only will it help in your ability to conceive but to carry a baby to full term and have a healthy baby to give them the best possible future. That's where we start. We have to start in your guts.   Michelle (51:20) So important. Thank you so much, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (51:23) A pleasure, Michelle. Thank you for having me.    

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to longevity expert Leslie Kenny. @lesliesnewprime   Leslie shares her personal journey of overcoming autoimmune diseases and infertility through patient empowerment and alternative therapies. She emphasizes the importance of partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments that resonate with individuals. Leslie's story highlights the power of lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet and the use of anti-aging molecules like spermidine in improving health and reversing the aging process.    Our conversation covers the topic of spermidine and its role in healthy aging. Spermidine is a compound found in our diet and produced by our gut biome. It is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Our conversation also touches on gluten-free options for spermidine, the importance of fiber in the diet, and the potential benefits of systemic enzymes.    Leslie also shared her personal experience with hypothyroidism and the importance of finding a doctor who will help you uncover solutions for your reproductive health.    Podcast Takeaways:

• Partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments can empower patients to take control of their health.
• Lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet, can have a significant impact on autoimmune diseases and overall health.
• Anti-aging molecules like spermidine and rapamycin have the potential to slow down the aging process and improve fertility.
• Maintaining a balanced hormonal system is crucial for reproductive health and overall well-being.
• Spermidine can promote cell renewal and recycling. Spermidine is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods.
• Fiber is important for the gut biome to produce spermidine.
• Finding a doctor who believes in you and is willing to explore your symptoms is crucial.

  Guest Bio:   Leslie is a longevity expert, and co-founder of the prestigious Oxford Longevity Project, a non-profit that brings scientists together to discuss breakthroughs around the science of ageing and autophagy, which is our body's natural cell recycling system.   www.oxfordhealthspan.com - Use coupon code WHOLESOMELOTUS for 15% off all items!   https://www.instagram.com/lesliesnewprime/ https://oxfordlongevityproject.org       Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Leslie.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:02) Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure.   Michelle (00:05) So I would love for you to share your story of how you got into the work that you do today. And I know that you're very passionate. We just had a little pre -talk and I'm very excited to get started.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:14) You   Well, my story is one of patient empowerment, just like you. And it started, as it can with many women, with a fertility quest. So in my mid to late 30s, I really wanted to have a baby and found that I was having problems. So started with IUI, did three of those, didn't work, and then moved on to IVF.   And it was as I was doing my fifth IVF round with donor eggs, I might add, and being mixed race, I'll tell you, it's not easy to find a donor, you know? And it was a high stakes game, as it were. And right before embryo transfer, I began to notice pain in my hands. I was having trouble.   Michelle (00:54) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:08) using scissors, turning doorknobs, turning faucets. And I just thought, strange, I think this is probably what arthritis feels like. I better just have it checked out since obviously I want this IVF with donor eggs to go perfectly. And I went to the doctor, she ran some tests. I thought, you know, they'd say, you know, it's something, have steroids do something that I'd heard of before. And instead she called me and asked me to have a meeting with her in her office.   Michelle (01:17) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:38) and always a bad sign, right? If they can't explain it to you over the phone, and if it's not the nurse telling you, there's nothing to worry about. So I went and talked to her and she said, you do have arthritis, it's rheumatoid arthritis. This is where your body is attacking your joints. And here are some pre -filled syringes that you can inject into your belly, they're immune suppressants to basically   Michelle (01:40) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (02:08) halt your immune system from attacking your body. And, and I immediately said, Hmm, don't I want my immune system to be strong? Like, don't I need that? And she said, well, normally you would, but in this case, it looks like your body is fighting cancer, except you're trying to destroy your own tissues. So I thought, okay, well, fine. Got the drugs. these are tiny diabetic needles. It'll be okay.   And then she said, but you also have something else. You have lupus. And that I'd never heard of. It was almost as if she'd said, you you have funny tree disease or something. It just made no sense to me. I didn't know what it was, had never heard of it. And I said, what's that? And she said, another autoimmune disease. And I said, okay, so what's the prescription for that?   And she said, unfortunately, there isn't a prescription for that. There's really nothing that we have right now to treat it. And you will slowly and progressively get worse. And I said, this is really not a good time for me to have this happen because I'm doing my fifth IVF with donor eggs. I'm waiting for embryo transfer. This is a terrible time. Can't we do something?   something else, anything else? Is there anything I can do? No, there's nothing you can do. Like, could I do my diet, my sleep? No, there's nothing you can do. Well, but what about this round? You know, I've done a lot to tee this up and a lot of money has gone into this. As you probably know, I've put in over a hundred thousand US dollars at this point in time into all of these treatments. And she said, I wouldn't do it. Don't do it.   you have a good five years left. And I thought, okay, well, that's a big statement to make. And I was so gobsmacked by it.   Michelle (04:08) That's crazy.   Wait, wait, She was saying you have five years left to live? Is that what she was saying?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (04:16) That's how I interpreted it. That's how I interpreted that if I, if this was successful, if this round was successful, I would only be able to parent this child for five years or four years, I guess, as it were. And I, it was a lot to process. you know, if you're a patient and you're told you have one thing that's a lot to take on, you know, and then you're thinking about.   the treatment protocol and the things you have to do. And I think already, if it's not a tablet to swallow, but you're injecting yourself, that's another big thing to take on board. Then an illness that you've never heard of before where they say there's no treatment, there's no cure, and then she says five years left. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, thinking, have this, I want to become a mother. I have this.   cycle I have to go through, we're going to embryo transfer. My uterus has to be in good shape. What are you doing? What are you saying? How does this impact that? Because I've got acupunctures lined up for embryo transfer, right, before and after. And so I did have at least the presence of mind to say to her, can I, well, could this be a false positive? She said, no, we've done multiple types of tests.   Michelle (05:11) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (05:35) and they all come back consistently indicating that you have these diseases. So then I said, can I test again? And she said, she shrugged her shoulders and said, sure, it's your insurance. So I vowed then and there that I would test again. And in the meantime, I would do everything possible. didn't matter what it was, whether it was my in uterine massage, which I did, or visualization, which I did.   Michelle (06:00) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (06:05) or trauma work, which I did, or, you know, new therapy, intravenous immunoglobulin transfusions, which I did, an anti-inflammatory diet. I was gonna do it all. I was gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And any woman who is trying to get pregnant knows exactly where I was and that feeling of, I've gotta make this happen. And I will just pull out all the stops. We're doing a full court press, right? And...   And so I did all those things and I came back within six months for a regular sort of review with your doctor. She opened the folder and she clearly not looked at the results ahead of time. And she said, well, look at that. You, don't have lupus and you don't have RA. And I said, would you like to know what I did? And she said, no, that's okay.   Michelle (06:54) What?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:04) And I said, well, that is, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty groundbreaking, right?   Michelle (07:11) Yeah,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:12) so in any event, I was so, I was so shocked by all of this and, really for me, the penny dropped that doctors don't know everything that we treat them as if they must, that they are the Oracle and that they are the, the guide to whom we can outsource our health problems.   Michelle (07:23) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:35) But in fact, we have to work in partnership with them. And sometimes they're not willing for insurance or liability reasons to talk about or consider alternative therapies that might work. But we patients have the opportunity to explore those things that resonate with us that might have a meaningful impact. so my journey has really begun   Michelle (07:38) Yes.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (08:04) as a patient advocate, really telling other women, you have more power than you think to move the needle on your health. And as a matter of fact, the things that you do might even be more important than what happens when you go to your acute care doctor, right? When you go into the doctor's office or into a hospital. And it has then...   taken me on a journey all the way to Oxford, England, where I ended up meeting a wonderful group of scientists here, a number of whom I helped fundraise for their companies for, all in the regenerative medicine space, and some of whom I've worked on longevity, healthy longevity advocacy.   other scientists whom I've worked on to bring an interesting anti -aging molecule called spermidine to market. So those are the...   Michelle (09:04) Yes. Is that, that's, that comes from   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:10) We can get it from wheat germ. We can get it from mushrooms. can get it from a huge variety of foods that are all plants. Essentially, if you want spermidine, it's almost exclusively in plants. only animal source is chicken liver, which is ironic because, of course, I remember my mother saying, you have to eat chicken liver. So moms do know, right? They've got a wisdom.   Michelle (09:19) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:36) But it comes from plant sources. We also make it in our tissues. We moms make it in our breast milk. When we give it to our babies, it's there to help them grow. Men, of course, make it in their seminal fluid. is in there because DNA wraps itself around spermidine. And it's very tightly wound.   Michelle (10:00) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:04) Normally DNA is wrapped around something called histone bond. It's too big to really fit into semen. And it's also there in semen as an anti -inflammatory because it turns out that when men make sperm, it's a high reactive oxygen species event. Women and men can both make it in our gut biome as well. so those would be the main, the three sources would be from our tissue production.   Michelle (10:27) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:33) And that falls, that declines dramatically similar to the decline in production of estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin as we get older. And then the second area is the microbiome and then third is from our food.   Michelle (10:51) So interesting. So let's go back and talk about what, what do you think it was specifically that changed? Like, what do you think happened with your body? Because you came into the doctor and you had all the signs that showed that you had two different autoimmune diseases that she could pick up. And then you changed your diet, you changed your lifestyle. You really went through so much. and of course it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what specifically, but now that you know what you know, and this is   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:03) Yeah.   Yum, yum.   Michelle (11:21) the work that you're doing. What are some of the things that come to mind?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:22) Hmm.   I went on an anti -inflammatory diet. So one of the first things I did was I researched a lot about both of these illnesses and I could see that inflammation was part of the root cause. And I'd heard about a diet called the Zone Anti -inflammatory Diet. This was popular in the early 2000s. And so I did that and that had a high emphasis on omega -3fatty acids.   on extra virgin olive oil. These are anti -inflammatories. It had a high emphasis on plants. And so my diet changed dramatically from more meat and charcuterie, sort of salami, these types of things over to plants. I also eliminated things which were known to be inflammatory triggers for me. So I had an allergy test done.   I could see that dairy was a problem, gluten was a problem, eggs happened to be a problem, which was a shame because I loved eggs. But we can't eat them every day and think the body won't notice. We have to kind of mix it up and have a diverse diet. So I essentially removed the inflammatory triggers to the immune system. I added in things that were naturally anti -inflammatory, like the omega -3s. And at the same time, when I did the intravenous immunoglobulin,   Michelle (12:44) you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (12:50) I reset my immune system and there were studies in, there were small groups of patients with both rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who had done IVIG already in 2004 when I was diagnosed and I could see it work for them and I sort of felt like I have nothing to lose. It's kind of this or I wait for the inevitable.   And I did have people tell me, don't do the IVIG, because this was the time of mad cow disease. And people were quite concerned about prions, these proteins in blood plasma. And they were worried that you might be able to get that or hepatitis C. These were things that had been transmitted through transfusion products previously. But I still felt that, what, five years?   Michelle (13:25) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (13:49) I have nothing to lose. So I'm so glad that I did do that. know that everyone has to weigh up the risk -benefit analysis of any new treatment and their own situation. But for me, that was a decision that I made, and I'm so glad I did, because I spent 20, my insurance company spent $24 ,000 US on two transfusions, eight hours in total. And I have   Michelle (13:52) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:19) Going into remission meant that I have foregone over a million US dollars worth of immune suppressing drugs or chemo drugs because often we autoimmune patients get moved on to methotrexate, which is a chemo drug. I've not had to do any of those over these 20 years. And of course, I also don't live in pain and I don't.   Michelle (14:29) Mm Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:45) live in fear of because I'm suppressing my immune system, I have to avoid social situations where people might have a cold and give it to me and compromise my immune system. So it was a fantastic outcome for me. It's not one I think a lot of people hear about, but I think they should.   Michelle (15:06) for sure. I mean, it's good to hear everything. And I agree with you that everybody has to really assess their own personal situation. I think, I believe in the innate intuition that's kind of like our body's intelligence speaking to us, just like it does when we have an allergy or we feel some things off when we eat something. So I think that that is a really important component to that. And it's the thing that spoke to you when you were at your doctor's office, because it,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (15:20) Yeah, agreed.   Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) You could have just said, okay, I'm going to completely bypass any questions that I have and fully just accept everything that I'm given. But something inside of you said, wait, hold up. Let me just do this again. Let me look at this. me think about this. So I really believe in that. think that is so important and important for people to hear because so often we do that. We bypass our own internal judgment and knowing.   You said something important is partnering up with your provider so that it's not an all or nothing. Of course you're going to utilize and you did, you got benefit from getting those tests because that woke you up to doing so many new and amazing things in your own life and implementing a better diet and so on. As far as Omega -3 goes, this is just something that I've been hearing of late.   that some of the supplements go rancid and that it makes it worse. it, have you heard about that?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (16:36) Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, and apparently what you need to do is take this supplement and put it into the freezer. And if it gets cloudy, that is what I've heard is that then that's not good. It's supposed to remain clear throughout. I'm not an omega -3 fatty acid expert. I have lived for a number of years, very nearby one here in Oxford, Professor John Stein.   Michelle (16:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:05) who's done a lot of the research on mental health issues and omega -3s and how important they are for brain health. But yeah, I think, you know, get it from your diet first and foremost. Fatty fish is a great source, right? Yeah. Salmon, if we, you haven't already eaten all of it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:18) Right. Good fish. Yeah.   Wild caught, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. Well, also just the mercury in some of the salmon, you know, the chemicals, but wild caught, I always say just.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:33) Yeah, wild caught. Yeah. And also anchovies, mackerel, sardines, right? The small fish are a really good source of omega -3 fatty acids. And those tend not to have the mercury. Obviously, if we're trying to get pregnant, mercury, definitely not your friend. So yeah.   Michelle (17:38) Sardines, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I always say, you know, if you're not going to have it when you're pregnant and if you don't have it when you're trying to get pregnant because tuna, for example, they always caution not to have that because of the high mercury, but you don't want that in your system if you're trying to conceive. So for I was very intrigued by your story and I was also intrigued by what you do because when you think about egg quality, sperm quality and really reproduction,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:02) Yum. Yum.   Hmm.   Michelle (18:18) you think anti -aging, that's like ultimately anti -aging in a nutshell. Like that's really what I do for people that I work with. And it benefits me because I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to apply a lot of these things as I learn. it definitely, but that's what it is. It's anti -aging. Like I'm big on meditation, which has also been shown take our clocks back, but food and diet and certain supplements,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:20) Mm -hmm. 100%. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (18:46) can actually shift and slow down your aging or sometimes even like reverse your biological clock. And I know you're the expert in this specific topic. So I'd love for you to talk about that and what has been discovered and seen in this subject.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:57) Sure.   So when we are at our peak health is when we are reproductively capable. And we visually know this when we go out and we see a woman with glossy long hair, with long eyelashes, with healthy radiant skin, of healthy body weight, we know that that is someone who is   who is really attractive and why are they attractive? Because they are at their reproductive height. And interestingly, all of the things I have described are also linked with your spermidine levels. And so that's quite interesting. But also, your hormones are in perfect balance when you can reproduce and that includes not just the usual female sex hormones,   Michelle (19:36) Mm   Mmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:01) but also your thyroid hormones. So I'm also a Hashimoto's survivor as well. And so I'm a hypothyroid patient and that is also really important. So it's got to be in perfect balance then. And one of the things that happens with some of these anti -aging molecules is that they extend fertility.   Michelle (20:07) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:28) partly by reversing your age, but they will start the reproductive cycle back up for some people. And it kind of depends how far away from menopause you are. But we've certainly had clients who've said, what happened? I've been in menopause for two years and I've gotten my cycle back. And...   On the one hand, want to say, congratulations, that's great. But they're thinking, this means I can't wear white trousers now, right? And I thought I was done with the pads and the tampons. So I know it's a little bit of a double -edged sword. We women are often thinking about, how do we get rid of our cycles? But in fact, they are nature's way of saying that we are in peak health and are capable of bringing another life into this world.   Michelle (20:55) Hahaha   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (21:22) You know, we do have to bear that in mind. Of course, the same is true for men. And we know there's a problem with testosterone declining in young men, whether it's due to endocrine disruptors in our food and our water supply, toxins in the air. There is a challenge to men as well. And we do want to see them at their reproductive best in order to be at optimum health, too.   And that is also something that these geroprotectors, these senolytic drugs, these anti -aging molecules can do. They seem to restore fertility in men as well as women.   Michelle (22:03) Amazing. And so let's break it down for people who have never heard of these molecules and these supplements and spermidine. So take a step by step, like, so that people listening can understand what it is.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (22:07) Yeah.   Sure. OK. Well, first, me just say that there are scientists believe that there are 12 reasons why we get older. And these are known as the hallmarks of aging. And they include things that you and your listeners will have heard of before, things like inflammation, leaky gut, stem cell exhaustion or dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction.   So, you know, where you have no energy. Telomere shortening. So telomeres are at our in caps and they limit the number of times that we can replicate ourselves. So all of these reasons why we get older, scientists have looked at different molecules that can inhibit those, you know, us going down those pathways. And they have a list of these molecules that   inhibit certain numbers of molecules. And the two that do the most are one called rapamycin, which is a bacteria, and the other one is spermidine, which we manufacture ourselves, like I said, in our gut, in our tissues, and also we get from food. But importantly, it is found in both breast milk and in sperm, and it's so necessary for the survival   the start and survival of the next generation, that it's also in the endosperm of all plants. So these two molecules, rapamycin and spermidine are kind of the darlings of the anti -aging set. And one of spermidine's superhero powers is that it activates cell renewal and recycling.   So if we think about staying in perfect health, one of the first things we want to do is make sure that we can do is every day oven cleaning, right? And the cells do have that function. Maintenance, exactly, exactly. Now, when we're young, it happens naturally and we don't think anything of it, but as we begin to age, that process falters and the cells, the dysfunctional cells,   Michelle (24:16) Mm -hmm. It's a maintenance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:32) which we call senescent cells, they begin to stack up. And the more of these senescent or zombie cells that we have, the less well the other cells function. And I sometimes say that these zombie cells are a bit like your uncle Ted who has too much to drink at a wedding, and he begins to say inappropriate things.   Michelle (24:45) Mm   you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:56) and do really silly stunts and you just think, okay, we got to get Ted over with pot of coffee in the corner away from everybody else or he's going to ruin the party for everyone else. This is what senescent cells do to you. You have one senescent cell and it begins to leak inflammatory contents to the other cells nearby and zombie -izes them and does the same to the other cells. It's a cascade effect.   Michelle (25:09) Mm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:25) That is what spermidine can actually, one of the things it can help with in particular with immune cells, it can prevent those immune cells, well rather it can rejuvenate senescent immune cells and that is the work that was done at the University of Oxford.   Michelle (25:43) That's amazing. you moved there to work with them in the research?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:48) Well, I came here anyway. I came here because my ex, now sadly my ex, but we have two wonderful children together. He was from Oxford and moved here to be closer to his family and still close to them and absolutely fell in love with the town and just the vibe. University towns are definitely my kind of place.   Michelle (26:09) Hmm. That's nice.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:18) Just the scientific rigor here in the life sciences, it's phenomenal. It's really impressive.   Michelle (26:29) That's amazing. so the two things you're saying are spermidine and rapamycin. and so spermidine is something that you could take from supplements, but not so much rapamycin.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:39) You can't, no, not rapamycin, no. It's not something you're going to find in food. So it was basically isolated on Rapa Nui, which is one of the Eastern islands. And one of the pharmaceutical company, a researcher basically took it back home to the United States and it was later researched and found to do.   some really amazing things, one of which is that it can suppress the immune system. And this is important for people who have organ transplants because the tissue match is not perfect and their bodies necessarily want to reject any foreign material in their bodies. So if you give these patients immune suppressants to stop the rejection of the organ, they can live quite nicely with   Michelle (27:16) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (27:33) with that organ and continue in reasonable health, understanding that their immune system has been suppressed. Spermidine, though, of course, it's in our diet. It's something that our gut biome, if it's not been compromised by too much exposure to broad spectrum antibiotics, it can make. And in all of the longevity hotspots of the world, these populations of healthy centenarians, their spermidine levels are   high, they're similar to those of people who are in their 50s. And it's correlated with healthy lifespan. So I always recommend that people try to get more plants in their diet because you will get spermidine in your plants. If you can have fermented foods,   Michelle (28:12) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:29) If you don't have a problem with histamine load, and some people do for allergy, you know, if they've got allergies, but if you don't have a problem with histamine, then, you know, kimchi, sauerkraut, even things that are long matured like cheese. And a lot of people can say, I'm not allowed cheese because it'll make me gain weight. Well, yes, but there is also some spermatine there. The longer the maturity of the, of the cheese, the more it's been aged, the higher the spermatine content.   Michelle (28:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:58) Usually these are harder cheeses like a Parmesan or a cheddar. These would be good sources. And then for individuals who need extra, then a supplement makes sense. But I always say, get it first from your food. Please do not rely on a supplement, right? That's not doing, it's a disservice to think that you can just have a bunch of little pills on your plate.   Well, at first you're not going to get any satisfaction from it. But the other thing is that we need the fiber in those plants because that fiber, although our bodies don't, don't digest it, the gut biome needs that. And so you, you want to also feed the colonies in your gut biome that can make more spermidine for you. You know, we have these little pharmaceutical factories that make   Michelle (29:46) Mm   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (29:54) everything from B vitamins and serotonin, one of the happiness hormones, and spermidine. So why waste it? actually in our supplement, the wheat germ derived one, we have a fructo -oleigosaccharide in there, an FOS, can selectively feed the bacteria that make spermidine. And the reason I want it there is because that's also what's in breast milk. In breast milk, you have   these fructo -aligosaccharides, you have spermidine, sperminine, another polyamine that actually helps turn good genes on, bad genes off, and then a precursor polyamine called putrescine. So you want some fiber, basically, that's the takeaway. Please, you want the fiber, yeah, exactly, because it's always better to, what do they say? Teach a man to fish, feed him for life, right?   Michelle (30:38) With the spermidine. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (30:49) rather than just give him the fish. And that's kind of what we want to do. We want to train your body to make more of it, especially as you get older, because you'll have to eat increasing amounts of plant material to make up the shortfall of your tissue production of spermidine going offline.   Michelle (30:57) Right.   It's fascinating. So wheat germ is not necessarily gluten -free. For people who are gluten -free, what do they do?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:16) Well, OK, so yes, obviously, this is a problem in particular for autoimmune patients. And I went on the autoimmune paleo diet myself. I got rid of all gluten. I was off all lectins. Gluten is most famous lectin. So I had so many autoimmune patients getting in touch with me who'd heard my story that I actually looked for a plant source high in spermidine that was not a lectin. And I found it in an unusual strain of chlorella.   Michelle (31:28) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:45) So I went to Okinawa and had to test 120 different strains, substrains of chlorella to find the single one that had very high expression of spermidine. And we commissioned that to be grown in open -air freshwater ponds that are on land in Okinawa, but next to the ocean, but not in the ocean.   Michelle (31:46) Mm   wow.   It's wild.   huh.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:11) And that's what we use in our gluten -free product, which also has Okinawan autumn turmeric and has Okinawan lime peel. So lime peel has another autophagy activator. That's that cell renewal process. This autophagy or cell renewal activator is called nobilitan. And it's also in bergamot, in bergamot, the citrus fruit.   Michelle (32:16) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm -hmm. Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:38) And that actually, interestingly enough, is an Earl Grey tea. So if you're going to drink a tea, maybe some Earl Grey, you'll get some nobilitan in that. But that formulation was especially made for celiacs and for other autoimmune patients who really wanted the benefits of autophagy but couldn't use the defatted wheat germ version that we had brought to market first.   Michelle (32:42) wow. Interesting.   Mm   Mm   Amazing. Let me ask you a question. Have you looked into enzymes, pro proteleic? No, enzymes that are actually systemic enzymes that you have on an empty stomach. like things like wobe enzyme and yeah. And I think that there's another one, it's Nuzheim or there's another pretty well -known company. And I think it's from Europe.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:11) You mean like digestive enzymes or?   I've taken wovenzyme.   So yeah, wabenzim is German. I took that, gosh, maybe it's been around for decades and it does work. I took that from my, interesting. I took it, I didn't know that. I took it for joint pain. And so this was something that I was taking as a way to try and treat myself for the rheumatoid arthritis. So it didn't, it wasn't enough for that. I think it can help.   Michelle (33:40) It was beneficial for thyroid. Yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:59) more mild things, but definitely these are of benefit. And having a coach like you, who, you know, a trained practitioner who knows about all of the menu items that could be selected, you have the different tools, right? It's overwhelming as a patient. I mean, even just having my doctor say, just inject this one drug, that was like, whoa, can I get my head around the idea of injecting myself, right?   Michelle (34:13) Yeah, like different tools.   yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:29) So you do need a guide and I think it's great that you've got that knowledge that you can share with your clients.   Michelle (34:37) Thank you. also, so for people who are interested, is it mostly the spermidine that you're focused on?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:45) Yes, so basically we are a small all -women company and you know, women -led companies, we get around 2 % of all venture capital funding. We don't have venture capital funding like our competitors. We very much are growing organically and are looking at really focusing on something that we know very well and making the most excellent   Michelle (34:49) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:13) product on the planet. And for me, with my group of advisors, this has been the right thing to do because we've had so many raw material manufacturers and suppliers come to us telling us, try this spermidine. And when we tested in the lab, we see that it's basically a tiny amount of wheat germ, and it's been cut like a street drug with synthetic spermidine.   Michelle (35:15) Awesome.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:42) And the problem with synthetic spermidine is, firstly, OK, I am biased against the synthetic because I watch my mother take the synthetic HRT. I'm so glad I'm on bioidentical HRT. But the synthetic has never been tested for safety or efficacy in humans. So I'm reluctant to bring a product to market that has not been tested. And when it comes to fertility,   Michelle (35:43) wow.   Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:11) We know that in mouse studies where they have used synthetic spermidine, small amounts seem to help. But then when you give just a little bit more, it actually impairs fertility. so with these...   Michelle (36:22) wow. That's important. That's really important, you guys, to listen to that because that's huge.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:28) Yeah, that's huge. So the problem is finding the Goldilocks zone. Each of us is bio individual. We have different ethnic difference, genetic differences, age, body shape, height, and metabolism. All of these things mean you want the right amount for you, but we don't know what that right amount is when it comes to synthetic spermidine. With plants, however, it's not a problem.   because the body recognizes this, we have co -evolved with plant -derived spermidine for millennia. So when there's too much, the body says, right, we're going to turn this into spermine, which is going to help with turning good genes on, bad genes off with the DNA methylation. But this doesn't happen with the synthetic. I think that on the fertility front, as a woman, I would never make that.   Michelle (36:55) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:21) I would never go for something that might possibly hurt my fertility.   Michelle (37:25) absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a complete waste of time because you're trying to do all these other things and then you're going to take something that's not, that's a risk. and then I was curious, it says you were talking about it you were saying that sometimes they'll find it in certain mushrooms, cordyceps by any chance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Mmm.   it will be in cordyceps. It will be in all mushrooms and the ones that have the highest amount of swirmed in our shiitake, oyster and trumpet, but all mushrooms will have it. And, know, if you, if you don't have a problem with, mushrooms, know, this is fall, it's autumn. This is the right time to, you know, get some mushrooms into your stews and your soups and,   Michelle (37:43) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Awesome.   Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:06) It's really, it's so, so good also because it's got vitamin D and we're just coming off of this period where we've soaked up the vitamin D from the sun over the summer, but now we're going into winter and we're gonna get less. So there are so many reasons to get it also a wonderful source of fiber.   Michelle (38:16) Yeah.   Yeah, amazing. So if people are interested and want to learn more and then also want to look at your products, how can they find you?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:32) They can go to Oxford HealthSpan, like the span of a bridge, it's all one word, .com. And if they're interested in learning more about healthy aging, we do bring breakthrough scientists who talk about things, not just about cell renewal or autophagy, but talk about other things as well. We also have them talk about, say, NAD, things like this. That's at the OxfordLongevityProject .org.   Michelle (38:56) Yeah.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:01) And then I have kind of a side hustle helping my girlfriends with gray hair reversal. And that's on Leslie's new prime. Spermadine helps with that as well. It helps with hair health and eyelash and eyebrow health. That is on Leslie's new prime on YouTube. So L -E -S -L -I -E is how I spell my name.   Michelle (39:08) nice.   Fabulous. Leslie, this was fascinating. I really enjoyed talking to you. And also a key point, you got pregnant naturally at 40. Okay. important thing to mention. And I kept thinking about it as we're talking about, wait, wait, let's go. Let's go talk about that, even though it's kind of the end of the episode.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:34) I did at Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a happy ending. So, so the fifth IVF with the donor eggs didn't work. As a matter of fact, the embryologist said on embryo transfer, said, I don't know why you didn't use your eggs. Your eggs are better than this younger donor. I was like,   You're kidding me because I can't tell you how much I just sacrificed to pay for that. And, but, know, basically fast forward, I adopted a little girl from China. So I became a mom. become parents, you know, mother is a verb. It's not a noun. So that was, that was great. And as I was taking care of her, I still felt very, very tired and I couldn't understand what was going on, why I saw these other moms.   Michelle (40:02) wow.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (40:27) running around with scout troops, planting gardens, walking dogs, five children. You know, why? How do they do it? They're the same age and they have so much more energy. And I just, I did go to Dr. Google. I put in every symptom I had and it came up hypothyroid. So then,   The GP here in the UK said, no, you're in the normal range. No problem. I went to a private GP. No, you're normal. I went to a private endocrinologist. No, you're normal. And I just thought, I know I'm not. These doctors keep telling me I'm normal. I know. We patients always, if you do feel like that, follow your intuition, find a doctor who believes you, and we'll run the test. We'll work with you to uncover the mystery. It's like a murder mystery, right? So.   Michelle (41:09) Yes.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:14) So I went on patient forums. Patient forums have been great help. Went there and people said, there is one doctor who will help you and he won't just look at your blood test. A lot of doctors look at thyroid problems and they only look at your blood test, your TSH, your T3, your T4. I went to him and he looked at clinical symptoms and he also ran a cortisol test. And he said that my...   Michelle (41:33) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:43) Cortisol was the lowest he had ever seen. It was so bad, he didn't know how I was standing in front of him. And I had classic cold hands, cold feet. Yes, my hair was thinning. I was exhausted. I was breathless as I went upstairs. I was losing the outer third of my eyebrows. These are all clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. He then said,   Michelle (41:50) Wow.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:09) What you need to do is address your adrenals first because of the cortisol problem, and then two weeks after that, take some thyroid. And because I actually do not convert levothyroxine, which is a standard thyroid hormone that most people get, like 60 % of all Americans will get that, but I can't convert it into the bioavailable.   Michelle (42:22) Mm   Right. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:33) thyroid hormone known as T3. And your cell receptors only have receptors for T3, not for levothyroxine. So if you've been taking loads and loads of levothyroxine, you still feel wiped out. You probably are just like me and have a genetic, you're genetically challenged and you can take a test with Genova diagnostics. I think it's called the DIO2 genetic test, D -I -O -2. And   Michelle (42:35) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:01) here in the UK cost about 75 pounds and you then can get T3 prescribed either synthetically or you can do what I do and Hillary Clinton also does. take something, we take a desiccated pig's thyroid. In America there's Armour, There's Armour, there's Urfa, there are a few brands and that within, you know, two to three weeks basically on that   Michelle (43:16) Is that armor? Yes, yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:29) Pregnant right away. No idea. Had not even, didn't check if I was ovulating. You remember the days when you're like, you've got a thermometer under your tongue and you're checking, am I ovulating? Could it be now? And all the calendar work that you've got to do when you're trying to get pregnant, none of that. It just happened. And I was so shocked. yeah. So my daughter, Marguerite, was born, you know,   Michelle (43:38) Yeah.   That is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:57) Eight months later, was just one day shy of being premature, so I got her over the premature line. And 10 out of 10 on the Apgar score delivered at age 43.   Michelle (44:08) Amazing. mean, that is just incredible. I'm sure, I mean, I'm so excited about this episode because I just feel like it's mind blowing, first of all, just all the different stories. And it also covers things that I feel are really important. advocating for yourself as a patient. I mean, that is huge. And I think a lot of us have been in those kinds of situations. You said something that I was like, wow.   That's a quote, find a doctor who believes you. You know, because also getting different opinions is super important and it's a game changer. It'll totally change your whole journey.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (44:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. Well, look what this doctor did for me. So what none of the doctors had realized with those other two autoimmune conditions was that I had my autoimmune, the system, the immune system had not only attacked my joints and my organs, but it had attacked my thyroid. And the way that he could see it was, you know, he could see with.   Michelle (45:07) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:11) that I had all the clinical symptoms, but with an ultrasound, he could see that I had only one eighth of a thyroid left. I had so little viable thyroid left. There was just nothing of the organ left. yet, because he didn't want to fall in line here in Britain, he was actually hounded by the British Medical Council.   Michelle (45:23) Wow, that is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:35) Mary Schumann, the thyroid advocate in the United States, who's written a number of thyroid patient handbooks, actually got a campaign together to try to gather signatures. And he had tens of thousands of signatures from grateful patients. But the medical council actually wasn't listening. They wanted their protocol to be followed. And it had to be a blood protocol.   Michelle (45:55) It's so crazy to me.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:02) And this is the problem is the blood does not show everything. But of course, we patients get these data points 24 -7.We know if our hair is falling out, if we can't shift the weight, if we can't walk upstairs without getting winded, if we've got cold hands and cold feet, our partners know because they tell us, God, you're freezing. What's going on? So we need.   Michelle (46:06) you   Yeah.   Mm   Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:30) Our partners know it. If, if you happen to be sleeping with a doctor, maybe he can be a prescribed for you and he'll believe it because of the cold feet. but otherwise, you know, you have to rely on your powers of persuasion to find a doctor who's willing to go the extra mile with you and get curious. I only ask that I just find a doctor who's willing to get curious with you.   Michelle (46:35) Right? Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, I could talk to you for longer than we have. But let's say this is amazing information, like really, really, truly amazing. And I love your story. And I love the way you truly believed in yourself. And that's something that I want to tell everybody who's listening, just believe in yourself because you know, and you know what? The body is so forgiving, way more forgiving than we give it credit for. It's just a matter of   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:21) 100%.   Michelle (47:22) figuring out like what is it exactly that it needs, like just figuring it out, its own way of communication. So thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on today.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:28) Yeah.   absolutely. Thank you for having me on. really appreciate it. It was lovely chatting with you, really fun. And keep going with your amazing work. Women need guides they can trust like you, who are willing to take the extra time to get curious and share the knowledge that you've gained over the years and the hard work you put in to get pregnant yourself, right?   Michelle (47:57) Thank you so much.    

In this episode of *The Wholesome Fertility Podcast*, I dive into the journey of trying to conceive in your 40s, focusing on how to balance realism with optimism. I debunk common myths around age and fertility, offering a comprehensive look at how aging affects reproductive health from both Western and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives. I’ll share practical strategies to enhance fertility naturally, including dietary adjustments, lifestyle changes, key supplements, and the power of the mind-body connection. We’ll also discuss how to navigate medical interventions like IVF, with a focus on protocols that prioritize egg quality over quantity. Whether you're just starting your fertility journey or looking to improve your chances of conceiving later in life, this episode is packed with insights, encouragement, and actionable advice to help you take control of your reproductive health.   Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I am your host, Michelle Oravitz. And today, I am going to talk about a topic that I think is so, so important. And I'm sure so many people out there are listening to this and wanting to know more. So today I'm going to talk about all things getting pregnant in your 40s.   So, typically, what drives me absolutely crazy is hearing that you're considered a geriatric pregnancy once you're pregnant after age 35. So, I think that's absolutely ridiculous. And working in this field, I work with so many people either approaching 40s or after 40s and I just recently had a patient at 46 who is pregnant and thriving. So, there are so many stories out there that will definitely contradict. all of the fear and all of the questioning and the[00:01:00] doubts in women getting pregnant in their 40s. So I feel really passionate about this. If you are in your 40s and you're trying to conceive, I highly recommend you listen to this episode.   So I'm going to be realistic and optimistic at the same time when it comes to getting pregnant after 40. So the realistic aspect of is, the more time you're like living and elements of the earth, you are going to have natural wear and tear. You're going to also have a natural decline in certain factors of your body.   And That could be, I guess, the realistic news. However, the optimistic news is that we can actually do a lot to improve whatever it is to slow down the aging process. And we can do a lot also to improve the quality of our cells and, , Our cellular regeneration and also the energy overall chi [00:02:00] overall blood and really support our body and our body is forgiving.   It has been designed to be very forgiving. It's also been designed to reproduce. So if you give it the resources. Yeah. Then it will start to heal itself, , it will replenish itself, and it'll produce better outcome when it comes to reproductive health. So as far as the realistic part, let's talk about really what happens as women age. And when it comes down to really being in your forties. Now I will kind of bust a myth here because a lot of times they say women are the only ones that have biological clocks and men don't. And that is a myth. It's absolutely not true.   And as a matter of fact, nowadays, unfortunately, there's a lot going on that's also impacting sperm health, even for men in their reproductive age. So it does definitely impact, and get lower with age for men as well. So typically the things that will decline with age, [00:03:00] from a TCM perspective, traditional Chinese medicine perspective, women will definitely overall, their kidney chi, the kidneys in Chinese medicine are really, in charge of reproduction and they have very important roles from the moment the woman goes into puberty until afterwards towards the end they start to decline. So the reproductive health of the kidneys, there are two aspects of it. I've talked about this before you get pre heaven chi and post heaven chi. And so you can get The pre heaven chi is basically like genetics. It's what you're born with. It's essence that you're given really at birth. And you could look at like all the eggs that a baby has. If it's a female, it already is born with the eggs. And so all of that is there once a woman becomes more ripe, which is towards reproductive age When that aspect of her body starts to activate, some people are [00:04:00] born with a much better inheritance of qi and others have a little less. However, we also have what's called post heaven qi and post heaven qi is something that a lot of times the spleen and stomach are really in charge of and the spleen and stomach are in charge of digestion. So the things we eat, how we choose to live.   The amount of stress we have in our life, because stress can really deplete a lot of the qi, the energy. , qi, by the way, is life force vitality. So, all of those things come in and play a factor on how a person's overall health and overall reproductive health is impacted.   The good news, again, is that you can actually reverse your biological age. And this can depend on many different factors. And I'll talk about that as we continue. But some of the things to keep in mind is that, yes, as people age, [00:05:00] their overall ATP in the cells, which is really energy units in the cells, in the mitochondria, they lower with time. So that actually decreases. And when ATP decreases in cells, it actually decreases also the quality of the cells. And since egg cells are the largest cell in a woman's body, it's really important that they are robust with healthy mitochondria so that they can create a lot more ATP energy units because it takes a lot of energy to conceive. It takes a lot of energy for the egg to fertilize with the sperm to create a healthy embryo because it's a lot of force. And if you look at any seeds, really any seeds anywhere, and this is why eating seeds is actually so beneficial because seeds have a lot of what we call Jing. [00:06:00] Jing is essence. And so that essence is basically very similar to conception.   Because seeds have everything they need, all the nutrients kind of sitting there and their potential is there for growth. So they're primed and ready with the right environment to grow and sprout. So that is why one of the things we often suggest is to is to eat lots of seeds and people use seed cycling and I say either seed cycling or just eating seeds, either way you are going to get that essence and that jing through food. So your digestive health is really important as far as taking that quality and translating them into your eggs and translating them into your cells, essentially. And also over time as the egg quality declines, that impacts how much the follicles will grow, and it can impact the follicular [00:07:00] phase of the menstrual cycle, which is the first phase of the menstrual cycle from the time a woman gets her period. up until the time she ovulates and little by little that time can decrease and that can also be a reflection of how the follicles are growing and if they're maturing enough and it typically can decline with age.   Another thing that can decline is also the progesterone. So from either not ovulating or also from just the quality of the eggs because the outside of the follicle is the corpus luteum. So when the egg comes out of the follicle, what's left over is the corpus luteum, which is where the progesterone comes from earlier on.   And if a woman gets pregnant, that progesterone will last for a few months until the placenta starts to provide the progesterone. If a woman is low in progesterone, she may need to get excess. [00:08:00]progesterone extra from her doctor, or sometimes people try to do it bioidentical. So there are definitely many things that a woman can try and many interventions that she can try in order to help her conceive if she's at a later maternal age.   However, I've seen people conceive naturally at a later maternal age after 40 by implementing many lifestyle changes, including which really is at the heart of everything is supplements and diet, but died even more than supplements. And so if you have, say food sensitivities or you're, experiencing digestive discomfort or digestive issues that's going to impact the supplement absorption.   So it doesn't really matter if you don't take care of your gut health. It doesn't even matter what kind of supplements you have. And yes, maybe it's going to make a little bit of a dent, but it's not going to be as effective as if you get your digestive [00:09:00] system in order.   So what are things that can impact egg quality? So My suggestions here are multifold. I mean, there's so many different things that I can suggest, but I'm going to suggest the big ones that I think are the most crucial. And omega 3 fatty acids and antioxidants are really, really, really crucial. When it comes to egg quality, getting those healthy fats and healthy fats, like really, really good healthy fats, omega 3 fatty acids less omega 6, which are pro inflammatory, you want anti inflammatory, you want antioxidants, and really, an anti inflammatory diet would be the best bet when it comes to egg quality. So you want a lower inflammation because higher inflammation can decrease egg quality. You want to remove things like sugar, processed foods. All of those things can impact [00:10:00] inflammation, but it also can impact your gut and you want a good healthy microbiome so that you're able to really translate what's in the food, even if you're eating right into the nourished energy and the chi and the life force and the blood that will support egg quality.   You also want a healthy exercise routine. So you want like a good opportunity for your body to get oxygen because oxygen plays a really important role when it comes to increasing the ATP and the energy units in the body and exercise as well. So if you over exercise, so here's the key over exercising, you're going to deplete your energy under exercising, you're going to deplete your energy being in a healthy BMI, a healthy weight. is the most ideal.   So the ideal BMI for getting pregnant is between 18. 5 and 24. 9. It's known as the healthy range. Anything lower or anything higher can contribute to a more [00:11:00] deficient state, believe it or not, even having excess and having a higher weight can be deficient because your body's carrying the weight and it's not using the energy properly. Sunlight also impacts melatonin in your cells. So believe it or not, even though melatonin is something that many people take and it's used at night or it's Considered something that impacts sleep. It also impacts the cells and works as an antioxidant and One of the ways to do it is by taking supplements But I would definitely suggest getting sunlight early in the morning, because if you get sunlight early in the morning, your cells will start to make cellular melatonin, and that can impact your egg quality as well. Another thing that we know can really act as an anti ager is meditation. By meditating, you can actually slow down and reverse your biological age. There many studies that show. that there's so [00:12:00]many physiological improvements that can happen from meditation, but not just meditating things like yoga as well. Things that really calm the nervous system, like even chanting has been shown to have many beneficial aspects, but it also.   Can increase nitric oxide chanting does. So there are a lot of things that you can do that are free and really are so minimal. Like it doesn't even take that much time out of your day that can improve and reverse your biological age. Meditation has been shown to help people live longer, it increases well being, and it also works on your emotions. And believe it or not, emotions are actually pretty high maintenance, especially difficult emotions. If you think about it, it really uses up a lot of energy, so it's not a energy efficient aspect of us. Now, it does happen from time to time and it's normal to have those emotions, no doubt, but[00:13:00] if you have it chronically, it can really, really deplete the energy of the body.   Think about times where you've had a very heightened sense of emotion or a difficult day and you've really, really, it got the best of you. Think about how depleting it was and how depleted you felt. Sometimes people need to sleep just to kind of overcome all of the emotions and all of the drain that it's given them so emotions can be really, really taxing, but then on the other hand, elevated emotions can actually provide more energy. So things like laughter are really healthy. I oftentimes tell people to do that, especially before transfers, because if you are getting a transfer, it's been shown to help the transfer stick.   So laughter therapy, if it helps with transfers. It really helps with everything else. It was just one study on that, but laughter is healthy in general. So watching [00:14:00] things like comedies will take the edge off of the fertility journey, just to have a little break mentally because we know that it can be really, really taxing and difficult as it is. So I always say, if you're going to have those things happen or things that are challenging that you're dealing with, you obviously can't take that away because it's just part of life and it's part of the process. But what you can do is counteract it with other tools and other things that you can least bounce out or alleviate or take the load off. And I highly suggest laughter therapy. That's huge. But also exercise and yoga, things that really calm the nervous system, because it helps you sleep. And sleep is another really, really important factor that can also help with age related fertility conditions. So getting sleep is incredibly nurturing.   It also helps your body organize and balance hormones. It's so important to get your [00:15:00] overall chi increased, which think ATP, think about your mitochondria, your cells, rejuvenation. Sleep is incredibly important. The key with sleep is not to have too much sleep and not to have too little. So about eight to nine hours or seven to nine hours, ideally eight would be great.   Supplements you might want to consider are a good prenatal supplement, omega 3s, vitamin C and E, because they're high in antioxidants, but sometimes the prenatals have a good amount. Glutathione is really important, NAC and please don't take this as medical advice. Definitely speak to somebody about, you know, Taking this because it's not for everybody, not all supplements are for everybody.   It really is dependent on your unique circumstance and you can also get your DHEA. tested to see if it's low because many women after 40 can [00:16:00] benefit from taking DHEA depending on their condition. For some people, it can have an adverse effect if it's too high. So it's important to really look at it because it is a hormone. If you are considering IVF, My suggestion is to inquire about a lower dosage protocol because from what I've learned from speaking to other practitioners and also speaking to my patients and seeing people doing a lot better, women who have a lower reserve may do better with lower medication protocols because it works more on the quality than the quantity. Because if you try to work on the quantity, then the quantity is already low. So it's better for fewer eggs to take in the medication and grow. And from what I've seen. People have done better with that. if they have [00:17:00] lower reserve. But again, this is a question for your doctor.   You want to make sure that they're on board. You may want to get multiple opinions and see what everybody thinks, because you'll find different opinions on everything when it comes to fertility and when it comes to doctors.   And lastly, you want to also track your cycle. And I wouldn't just do it with LH sticks because LH sticks are just going to show your brain wants to get your body to ovulate, but it doesn't really confirm ovulation. I highly recommend trying BBT charting for at least two months. I have a couple of episodes on that. If you want to look into different methods that you can choose to track your fertile window, you could check out episode number 299. I cover many different ways to track it, how to track it and ways that are a little more convenient than just doing the BBT, which I do highly still recommend to at least to do it for two [00:18:00] months.   The important thing is really to understand it and to understand your fertile window and really understand what is happening and when you are most fertile. It could help you also in understanding whether you need to address the follicular phase or the luteal phase or what's happening because if your luteal phase is short or the temperature is too low, that could be possibly significant in showing that you have low progesterone and something that you might want to mention to your doctor or your natural health practitioner.   So those are all things that you want to know. If you do have any questions, I am very active on Instagram. You can DM me and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. Thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope that you found this information helpful. If you have any other ideas or topics, again, feel free to DM me on Instagram and thank you so much for tuning in.   I hope you have a [00:19:00] beautiful day. 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Desi Barlett!   Desi shares her background and how she got into supporting women through life's transitions. She explains kinesiology and its connection to yoga and the body's movements. Desi discusses the importance of releasing emotions stored in the body and the three common areas where tension is held: hips, shoulders, and jaw. She also highlights the significance of starting the day with intention and meditation.   Episode Takeaways

• Kinesiology is the study of the human body and its movements, and it can be used to support women through various life transitions.
• Emotions are often stored in the body, particularly in the hips, shoulders, and jaw. Releasing tension in these areas can lead to emotional and physical well-being.
• Meditation and breathwork are powerful tools for maintaining and cleansing the mind and body. They can help release emotional weight and provide clarity and focus.
• Starting the day with intention and proactive decision-making can set the tone for a successful and fulfilling day. Starting the day with a morning ritual and setting intentions can lead to success in all areas of life.
• Traumatic events can lead to finding one's calling and purpose in life.
• Connecting with the heart and the uterus is important for fertility and conception.
• Listening and being heard are essential for healing and creating a supportive environment.
• Desi offers resources and support for women on their fertility journey.

  Guest Bio:    Desi Bartlett MS, CPT E-RYT, is passionate about sharing the joy of movement. With over 25 years of experience in health and wellness, she holds a bachelor’s degree in kinesiology, a master’s degree in corporate fitness, and is currently pursuing a doctoral degree in exercise science. Originally from Chicago, Desi is also a proud mother of two and an internationally published author. Desi is currently launching an innovative subscription platform, Desibodymind.com, offering a holistic approach to health and wellness through meditation, yoga, and fitness. At the heart of her philosophy is the belief in the interconnectedness of mind and body. As a women’s health expert with advanced certifications in yoga, personal training, prenatal and postnatal fitness, and group fitness, Desi has garnered a roster of private clients that includes household names like Ashley Tisdale, Adam Levine, Kate Hudson, and many more. Her expertise has been showcased on major networks such as ABC, NBC, FOX, Univision, Hallmark, and Lifetime. Desi's influence extends beyond her client base through multiple online classes including DailyOM, Beachbody, and iFit. She is also the author of Your Strong, Sexy Pregnancy: a Yoga and Fitness Guide, a comprehensive guide  and co-author of Total Body Beautiful: Secrets to Looking and Feeling Your Best After Age 35. Now, Desi brings her wealth of knowledge and experience to Desibodymind.com, where individuals can access transformative content designed to strengthen both their physical bodies and mental well-being. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to the world of holistic health, Desi's platform offers something for everyone. Join Desi, who lives on the picturesque island of Oahu, on a journey to cultivate strength from the inside out.   www. desibodymind.com   Instagram is @mothersintolivingfit and @desibodymind     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Desi.   Desi (00:03) Thank you so much. Aloha from Hawaii. This is a beautiful morning over here on the island and I'm so happy to connect with you.   Michelle (00:11) I absolutely love Hawaii, by the way. Been there, it's so magical. I have to say, I really miss it now. We've been there like two years ago and I can't wait to come back.   So I'd love to hear your background. What got you started in this work that you do?   Desi (00:29) So my mother was a hippie and she was a disciple of Goswami Kriyananda at the Temple of Kriya Yoga in Chicago. So I grew up with meditation and yoga since the time I was six years old. When I was in college, I got really deep into fitness and I pursued two degrees. I've got my degree in kinesiology and my master's in corporate fitness. And actually I'm on the brink of getting my PhD right now. I'm also in kinesiology. And so I've just been   Michelle (00:37) Love that.   Awesome.   Desi (00:58) extremely passionate about helping women through all transitions of life for many years. I have two children and I know that pregnancy and fertility especially can be such a journey. So it's my pleasure, my privilege, my honor to really support women through all of life's changes.   Michelle (01:18) Amazing. First of all, I actually took a little and found it to be fascinating. So I'd love to actually start there for people who have never heard of it. would love for you to share it for somebody who's like never heard of it before and   Desi (01:33) kinesiology is all about the study of the human body. And what we look at is biomechanics and you know, like what muscle is specifically working when you're moving your arm, let's say zero to 45 degrees and then 45 to 90 degrees, et cetera. And so what I've learned is not only anatomy and physiology and really understanding the body from the inside out,   Michelle (01:47) you   Desi (01:57) but how the body moves. So when you layer that on with yoga and all of the esoteric teachings, it's so fascinating to me because what I'm seeing now is that what the yogis have been teaching quite literally for millennia is what we're discovering today. So for example, when we talk about something like yoga nidra, which is yogic sleep, when we go into progressive relaxation,   Michelle (02:17) Yes.   Desi (02:26) So for example, some of your listeners might've enjoyed a meditation where you close your eyes, slow your breath down, relax your feet, let that feeling of relaxation move to your ankles, and you go through the entire body. What we know now is that there are specific physiological processes that are happening inside of your body that promote this relaxation and restoration on a cellular level.   So on the one hand, I'm full blown science nerd, and on the other hand, I'm like super duper hippie. And when I can prove one with the other, it lights me up.   Michelle (03:04) I totally get it. Say no more. Because I feel the same way. And you know what's really cool? The more I'm doing this, the more I have guests on the podcast, the more I'm realizing, wow, we're actually at a place that we've wanted to go for so long. And people always thought that science had to be completely different from spirituality, that the two could not connect. But   I'm seeing more and more that they're actually connecting in a beautiful way.   Desi (03:33) Absolutely. And I think that really also speaks to what you do and what you offer women so beautifully as well in terms of acupuncture. And know, when we're starting to understand like in yoga, we call them natties, the energy lines, we're starting to understand that there's a reason that people have been talking about this for so many years and it's because it really works.   Michelle (03:49) Mm   Desi (03:57) So when we're able to bring this knowledge and education to women, especially on a fertility journey, I think it can be such a gift because it's not woo woo, know, there's actual science that's involved. And so if I'm asking you like, hey, let's take this step together and let me support you. I'm doing so from a place of feeling like I can actually help empower you. This isn't just us wishing.   Michelle (03:57) Mm   Love that. That's beautiful. I really love that. So talk to me about kinesiology, like what got you into it and how can you bridge that or like use that in your teachings and your practices?   Desi (04:37) I went to ASU and I was originally a broadcasting major and I had a dance class and I noticed that my knee hurt all of the time. And so I went to the university doctor and he said to me, he's like, no problem, you are not injured. You just need to strengthen your quads. And I said, what's a quad? And so he explained to me and his fate would have it that very evening I met   second place Miss Olympia on campus. And I was telling her what was going on. And she's like, all good, girl. I've got you. I'm going to take you to the gym. She introduced me to the leg extension. And I fell in love with fitness. And my joke is that that evening I walked into the gym and I never left. So what I've learned is that you can strengthen your muscles, your joints, your connective tissue. But while you're in the gym or on a yoga mat, we're also strengthening our minds. In order to push through that next rep or to lift the heavier weight, something is happening in our minds as well. We're making a decision to commit to the next level. And I truly believe that that's all applicable to our daily lives. When we feel stronger and our bodies and our minds, we can take that strength, that power into everything that we do with a sense of confidence. Like if I can lift that 200 pound   whatever, of course I can take this conference call. We're good.   Michelle (06:02) totally. I always say that. I mean, the challenges and sometimes I'll take a course or an exercise class and, and I'm like, my God, I'm dying. like, I love taking the class because I feel so much more motivated when I have a teacher and the teacher's like, I know this is hard, but get through it, go to your breath, you know, and then it gets me to my breath. And I'm like, okay, focus on my breath. And it makes you strong.   internally, like you learn to deal with things that are not easy. So I 100 % agree with what you just said. I totally feel that way myself. not just that, I am so fascinated by connecting with the body. somatic therapy, where it really, you connect with your body in order to process emotions and to process   Desi (06:45) Yes.   Michelle (06:50) your internal state. I mean, there's so much more to that than what I'm explaining because that's not specifically my specialty, but it's really fascinating to me because I've learned more and more as I'm doing this. And even with what I do that we process emotions physically a lot more than we think. We think it's all up here in our minds, but it really so much of it is in our bodies. And actually when we do get into our bodies,   That is how we're able to manage them more easily. And it doesn't feel as overwhelming as when we're thinking about them or just staying in that mindset.   Desi (07:31) Amen. So somatic therapy, remember reading about it the first time probably about, my goodness, 30 years ago, there's a wonderful book by Barbara Brennan. If I remember correctly, I think it's called Hands of Light. And she was a nurse, if I remember correctly, and working with people, and noticed that when she would touch certain parts of their body, it would trigger a memory. It would trigger an emotional response in many cases.   Michelle (07:43) Mm   Desi (07:56) Way back when, when I was like a little baby fitness teacher, I remember working as a personal trainer in Chicago. This is like 1996. And I would, I would touch people to stretch them, you know, like just relax your trapezius or let me help you with your hamstring stretch. And I felt and experienced and saw the same thing. When you're that close to someone's energy body.   you can almost feel or I can feel the memory. And I'm like, whoa, what was that? But I didn't have the tools at that time to say, know, enjoy a very deep breath. Let's let it go. And let's let that experience be sort of like a cloud and just let it move on by. We don't have to attach to it. In yoga, we have a technique called neti, neti, neti. I am not this thought. I am not this body. I am not this experience.   Michelle (08:30) Interesting.   Desi (08:52) You're the one who's all the way behind all that, right? So now I have the tools to help women especially and empower them. So when there's been trauma, we can talk about it when necessary, especially if I'm working with your body. The body is such a sacred space and it's our temple. So if I have the privilege and the honor of helping to guide your body, of course I'm going to approach it with a deep sense of reverence.   Michelle (08:56) Right.   Desi (09:19) And any feeling or emotion that's popping up, we'll say hello to it. We'll see where it comes from, if it needs to be explored more. But let's also start to focus on what is the intention? What do you want to feel today? So if you're waking up with a feeling of like chaos and my gosh, and I'm not sure what the next move is, and I've got this whole to -do list, and I've got this and that, and on and on and on, and the mind is spinning. Well, where do we want to go? Is the intention perhaps?   grounding and then I can help you start to ground and breathe and feel your lower body and so when things come up we can absolutely talk about that and move through it but let's also be really really focused on where we're going so we're not getting lost in a constant loop of what was.   Michelle (10:08) Mm   And do you see that a lot with the people that you're working with where they have like a real release or something old comes out when they're stretching in a certain way or they're a lot of times in the hips I hear that a lot of people hold a lot of tension in their hips and emotions there as well.   Desi (10:27) Yes. So three places in the body that tend to store a lot. Number one, as you said, in the hips, specifically the psoas, the hip flexors tend to hold a lot of old tension around fight or flight. So I know you and I have spoken before about fight or flight. Think about it, Michelle, if you're if you're getting ready to like either dig in and fight or just hightail it out of there, what activates the hip flexors? Because that's what activates what you're going to run.   or when you're going to stay and squat and push. So it's totally normal to.   Michelle (10:56) Right.   Desi (11:01) the body or for the body to tell us rather, hey, I need to release all this because I didn't even use it. You know, I realized I was only on the 405 freeway. I didn't need to fight or flee. It was just my body spinning out because there was so much stress. So that's where something like yoga comes in and deep hip openers and release. And we can let all of that go. But getting back to my original   Michelle (11:09) Bye.   Right.   Desi (11:28) point, the other two places in the body where we tend to store particular emotions, and this isn't one size fits all, you you might experience one thing somewhere else in the body, totally normal. But generally speaking as human beings, the second place where we tend to store it is in the shoulders. And so especially in our modern day like tech neck kind of world, you kind of notice that the voice goes up and the shoulders go up when we get stressed.   Michelle (11:46) Mm   Desi (11:55) And that also has to do with like fear and anxiety. So we're carrying quite literally the weight of the world on our shoulders. So we can start to release that and relax the trapezius and breathe into that. And then the third and final common place for us to store a lot of muscular tension is in the jaw. And pound for pound, this is like the strongest part of the body, which is crazy.   Michelle (12:17) Mm   Desi (12:23) That's why when we grind our teeth, can quite literally take bone through bone because it's so strong. So this is usually related to words left unspoken, needing to speak your truth, let it out. And how many times in this lifetime have we been told like, just it won't serve you to tell your boss off or that kind of thing. Yes, that's true. But when and where do we actually get to release it?   Michelle (12:24) That is pretty crazy.   Desi (12:52) Have you gone for a walk this morning and just, just let it all go with a great big exhale? It can help. I'm of Mexican ancestry, I'm Mexican and Russian. And I remember when I lived in Mexico, I learned the expression, ay un dicho, caerita te ves mas bonita. It means when you're quiet, you look prettier. And so there's this messaging around like, it in. And so I'm here to tell you like,   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, get it out. It's true. It's true. I've been a meditator for a while and I think that I think everybody should at least try it because there's so much benefit to going internally because it really connects you to listening to your body and listening to what's going on. And of course too many meditators will understand this. think if they hear this,   Desi (13:20) Let it out.   Michelle (13:43) is that you get a lot of downloads. actually allows for an opportunity for a lot of intuitive downloads. And unless you really allow yourself that space, you may not realize that. But I think a lot of people who everybody that I've talked to that meditates is like, my God, that happens to me. So, so therefore my conclusion is that when you sit and meditate, you do get intuitive hits and downloads. And so one of the things that came to me   Desi (14:01) Definitely.   Michelle (14:12) is it's like maintaining and cleansing. It's like you need to maintain your mind and your body by cleansing and releasing often just like you do anything else, even in your household, even the oil in your car, everything, even your body when you're releasing waste. I you need to release energetically. And I think that's something that is so often ignored. And people could just   get in a habit of holding and holding and holding. And it's almost like emotional constipation. Like you literally are holding it in. I know I'm really great with analogies, but you really like literally are holding it in. And so, they say kind of like you're holding so much weight and holding onto so much of the past or things that are holding you back, it's true. Like there's really truth in that.   And so sometimes when I get quiet, that's when I start to feel, I'm holding a lot. I wasn't even aware of that. And I think that that's what is so beautiful specifically with yoga, because yoga is movement and meditation and mindfulness at the same time and breath work, which is a whole other thing, because in the breath work, you can release so much as well.   Desi (15:27) Amen, yes. So meditation is sort of like brushing your teeth. It's something that we can do daily and it's a cleanse as you were saying. And so if we can simply take the time to connect, I like to share with folks that you can do it first thing in the morning. So when you first wake up in the morning, before you even open your eyes, slow the breath down and perhaps you even go back into the dream state and just ask yourself,   your higher self, show me, show me, show me. What am I meant to do today? What is the dream of my life and how can I take the next step? What is the right next step? And let it reveal itself to you. So in the same way that we have this muscular body and all of the beautiful processes that are happening every day, obviously, of course, we have the vital organs. And it's so interesting to me because   the yogis when they started to understand the chakras and the energetic body, it really lines up to like the organs in our body. So what you're talking about specifically is third eye, right? And so third eye relates to the pituitary. And this is vision beyond what's in front of our eyes. And I think we've all experienced this, whether you're daydreaming or in a deep state of prayer for those of who   for those of you who pray, there's this moment of being able to see like, that's the next right step. And you can breathe into it and you can feel that peace within your body. But if you go directly from the sleep state to the phone and CNN, Fox, like, boy, there's so much happening right now in the world, it will pull you off your center immediately.   Michelle (17:00) Mm   No, Yeah.   Mm   Desi (17:16) Before you give yourself to the world, I'm just gonna ask you to give yourself a moment to breathe and really decide for yourself, where is it I wanna show up today? How can I be of service? And I feel like that sets you up for success.   Michelle (17:35) I love that. I love that because it is a proactive way to really approach your day. And I always talk about the proactive versus reactive because yeah, we can react. We get our phone or somebody wants something from us. Then all of our actions are reactions really to something else that's pulling on us. And so when we do that at the beginning of our day, before we have any pull,   whatsoever. I just think that is so beautiful and that is so wise to start off your day with your own intention, with your own calling, with your own moment. I just think that is a hugely powerful practice. And I know that people who do things like that are more successful, like not just in their business, but I mean, they use this for business   because it works in the business because it's powerful in general. So you could use this for anything, for your personal life, for everything.   Desi (18:33) Absolutely. And to your point, I think it was probably three, four years ago, all of a sudden I started hearing about morning rituals. And I'm like, all right, the marketing folks have gotten a hold of this technique. And I don't judge. I love it. I love that the word is spread out to everyone because if it works, it's universal truth.   Michelle (18:41) Yeah.   totally. You can apply to everything for sure. But I remember watching Miracle Morning And then I read the book. It's fascinating. highly recommend people watch the video, which is free. You could find the video for free, but you can also get the book. And I thought it was fascinating. He basically looked, he pulled all the things that people who are successful in their life or like   felt control over their life. What did they do? What's their like magic ingredient? So he would find things like meditation in the morning. It all started in the morning because in the morning it's you're getting in before everybody else gets you. Just like you said, you know, before anything else happens, get yourself then catch it. It's like getting your, know, when you're telling your boss something and you're catching him right before he goes into the meeting into the craziness. And so it's a good time to catch yourself as well.   Desi (19:46) So I'd love to just also talk a little bit about the why behind all of this. So it's all so fascinating and what we're talking about. You and I are so aligned with our messaging and being of service to women and really empowering women with the tools that they need to create the dream of their lives. And I wanted to share for a moment part of why I do this. So.   I love yoga and meditation and fitness and all the things. And it's been such an integral part of my life and my path. And I don't know why, Michelle, but I'm called to share this story today. On September 11th, 2001, I was on a plane. I had gone home to Chicago for my 30th birthday and I was going back to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, where I lived at the time. And I heard over the intercom, we need to make a landing right now.   And as soon as we landed, I got off the plane and I saw the television screens. We landed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, obviously not the intended place. I was supposed to go all the way to Mexico. And I saw on the screen tower two and the plane hitting tower two. And so I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma for three days waiting for travel to be available again. And I   I made the mistake of watching a lot of the news and it was so heavy to take all of that in because I could feel so much pain, not just my own but those around me. And so I turned off the television and I used my tools and I went into a very, very deep state of meditation. And I said, show me, show me, show me, how can I be of service? How can I help?   And what I heard at that time, and I don't usually share this because it feels so deeply personal, but because we're talking to women on a fertility journey, that's personal and I wanna meet them where they are. I heard, share your gifts, share your gifts, share your gifts. And for me, what are my gifts? My gift to this world is helping you to feel good in your own body.   helping you to feel strong and capable and flexible and do anything that you want. So when the international borders finally opened again, I went to Mexico, I sold everything I had. I jumped on a plane and moved to Los Angeles two weeks later. And the reason I moved to LA specifically is because as silly as it might sound to some, it was really important to me to do.   yoga and fitness DVDs in English, in Spanish, to do prenatal fitness, yoga, all of the things. And so LA was the right fit. And LA was such a gift to me because it also, it led me to my husband and having babies and writing books and all the things. So I just really highly encourage you when there is trauma or pain or doubt, go within, listen.   get so quiet that you can actually hear this is the next right step.   Michelle (22:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. and I know it was a very personal story. So thank you so much for sharing that. That is a really, really profound, because I think that oftentimes it's such a human reaction when something bad happens or you're feeling emotions that are overwhelming, you want to either distract yourself or make it stop. I think of the saying, the only way out is through.   And I can't say just how true that is. there's, there is no other way, cause it will come back up. And I see that all the time when people come in for acupuncture, or even people say when they're doing yoga, they get into a certain stretch and it does come out because it's being held. If it doesn't go through, it's being held.   Really, if you look at like ancient culture and ancient tradition, ancient wisdom, they always say to go within. They're always pointing you inward. It's incredible.   Desi (23:52) Absolutely. because of so much of what you've studied comes from China and so much of what I've studied comes from India, we have this Eastern perspective that we can weave into the Western. Eastern isn't necessarily better. Western isn't necessarily bad. And I hear some people saying like, it's so Western. I'm like, well, Western also brought us like antibiotics. So we don't want to throw it away.   Michelle (24:14) Right, totally.   Desi (24:17) But we can weave that wisdom of centuries old Eastern traditions into what we know now.   Michelle (24:25) Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. so working with fertility, I know you do fertility yoga as well. What are some of the things and the tools that you use to help women when they're trying to conceive?   Desi (24:40) So a lot of what I do in addition to strengthening the body and making sure that the body feels ready to carry a pregnancy is meditation. We go into a very deep state of meditation. I often have women bring one hand to the heart and one hand to the womb, close your eyes and communicate with your baby and invite your baby into this space.   Michelle (24:58) Love that.   Desi (25:04) on his or her own divine right timing. It's not up to us. And as much as we want to decide like, it's today, it's this week, it's this year, that baby, that soul, in my opinion, has its own path. And so we honor that and we talk to the baby and we say, hey, know, however it is that you're going to come through, if it's through my body and this vessel, I welcome you.   If it's through another woman's body or another means, I honor you, but I'm ready to receive you in my arms. And so we make this heart to heart call, essentially, you're calling in the baby and you're letting the baby and the soul know I'm ready for you. again, however that comes is beautiful.   Michelle (25:56) Yeah, I love that. And what's really amazing is that there's this heart uterus connection with, so the heart basically is connected to the uterus. think we spoke about that when I was on the live. Did we talk about that?   Desi (26:08) We did, and it was the first time I've ever heard anyone say it. So I'd love if you could speak more about it because you intrigued me and I'm like, I love this.   Michelle (26:17) yeah, it's incredible. I talk about this a lot. actually like have a whole chapter on in the way of such an integral part really of conception, the heart plays a very strong role. I think it's overlooked a lot. And this is one of the reasons why your emotions make such an impact really on everything. I mean, you could say also fertility, but really everything.   but the heart specifically has a role in opening the uterus. So it has a role in labor as well. And what's really, really fascinating is that oxytocin, is coined as the heart hormone, the love hormone, which is one of the other things that I'm seeing as bridging science of the new to the old teachings is that oxytocin   has an impact on contracting the uterus. And it's one of the things that gets things started in labor. So when you're opening the uterus, it's opening for both taking in and taking out. So Ina Mae Gaskin she was midwife and I remember hearing this phrase from her that says the same energy that gets the baby in gets   gets the baby out. well, oxytocin also plays a role around ovulation. increases. Why is that? It's not random. Why would it increase around ovulation? Why would it increase after orgasm? Like around that time? Why would it do that if it had no role? Nothing is left with no role. Like everything's planned in our always something that's there for a reason.   So I always found that interesting because that's kind of like how we measure it in conventional medicine or modern science. And it really correlates to that. And I love the fact that you said that you put your hands, which I think your hands too have so much energy. And when we love somebody, we put our hands on them. So I love that you put your hands on your heart and your womb because having that connection, even touching it, when we're touching something, we're placing our intention there.   And also, you know, our arms are kind of connected via the heart. So it's almost like a circuit that happens energetically. And I'm like, I just think that is amazing that you do that.   Desi (28:39) It's so interesting that you say that it's like a circuit because if you look at all of the older like statues of the divine feminine, that's how their arms are held. And like you're saying, it's a continuation of the heart energy or the heart chakra energy that travels through the arms and the hands as conduits. And to go back to like muscular science nerd speak,   Michelle (28:57) Mm   Desi (29:02) If I put my hands on one of your muscles while you're training, the muscle can and or will contract up to 50 % more efficiently if I'm touching you. So if a trainer is, isn't it cool? If a trainer is like tapping on your bicep while you're doing a bicep curl, it isn't just like, hey, Michelle, this is the muscle. It's to activate that muscle for that muscle to go, wait, yeah, I'm supposed to contract. So in the same way,   Michelle (29:02) You   That's so cool.   That's fascinating. That is amazing.   Desi (29:31) Cool. So in the same way that we can remind the muscles, we can remind the organs and the energy body, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, but let's do, let's show up in the way that we're supposed to today.   Michelle (29:47) I love that. Thank you for that information. Cause that, I mean, that is blowing my mind. I didn't even realize that it was like that responsive, but it makes sense. It makes sense. That would be responsive to touch in general. Like, and we know that that love and touch even for premature babies helps them dramatically. So I always say, you know, if that love and touch helps that, why wouldn't it help the conception as well? And I just think that kind of centering in.   So continue, so you were saying that connecting with the heart and the uterus and just really like getting into your body and making that connection is one of the first ways that you start.   Desi (30:27) Yes, I work with so many women who don't ever think about their uterus or their womb. And when I say words like vaginal canal or entroitis, there's still a little bit of this puritanical energy that I think we carry, especially in the United States. And you'll hear almost like the little beavis and butt head giggle very often. I do it too.   Michelle (30:46) Mm   Desi (30:50) They said that. And so I go back to how you were saying that there's a reason for everything. One of my very first jobs, my goodness, I think I was like just barely 18, was as a weight loss counselor. Do remember Jenny Craig? We used to make us say like all of these ridiculous words like gas bubbles and   Michelle (30:52) You   Yes.   Desi (31:20) Constipation. We just, had to see all these words over and over and over so that we were really, really comfortable saying it without giggling because we needed to be able to speak to people about what was happening in their GI system and if that was related to holding on to weight. So when I'm speaking with women, I like to use the words and let's talk about your womb and your vagina and your uterus and the energy that we're bringing into these areas so that we can start to wake it up.   So it's not just like, yeah, down there. I hear a lot of people say down there. And I'm like, down where? Like, let's talk about it. Let's talk to our bodies. And if we want our bodies to be responsive in the way that we want a dear friend to be responsive and to show up for us, let's talk to it with love and respect and by its correct name.   Michelle (31:51) Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love that. really love that perspective of just really being there and seeing it for what it is and honoring it and not pushing it away uncomfortably and just really taking it in because I do feel like your body and your intention.   and your own energy and emotion towards it.   Desi (32:37) Amen. And so what I teach women is about the energetic body and chakras. And the second chakra is, of course, where we unite with another. So if the first chakra is the foundation, we are we're standing on our own as as women or as men. It's the individual. The second chakra is where we come into communion with another. We share our body with another. If we are wishing to conceive, that's the energy that we bring in.   So going back to like Ina Mae Gaskin and the energy that you conceive with is the energy that helps with labor and delivery. How do you want to bring a baby into this world? Is it with love and union and respect and reverence? Yeah, for me, yes. So we got to talk about it.   Michelle (33:25) Yeah.   for sure. And I also think that I also love working with chakras. I had a background in Ayurveda. So we talked about the chakras and then even Chinese medicine, you can see that there are certain points that correspond to those chakras. what I first saw, it's a thing. It's a vortex on your body. has energy. You can feel it. And even just thinking about it in meditation, just your thought alone, your awareness can release it and work on it. And   Another thing is, so we talk about the chakras, we talk about all the different things, but the chakras are interrelated. They communicate, they're, especially the neighboring ones, they are related. So I always think about like the first chakra is safety. If you're not feeling safe, can impact your period. It can impact your reproductive health. So it's almost like you need to be safe in order to create. you're,   know, second chakra is depending on that foundation of the safety and that rootedness and that groundedness. If you're in survival, you can't create cause you're too busy surviving.   Desi (34:40) Yes. And to your point, you were discussing, you and I were chatting the other day about how the body holds on to the energy in the arms and the legs when it's in fight or flight. So it can hightail out of a stressful situation. So how are you supposed to conceive in that environment? So it's interesting that every other chakra is individual or communion with another.   Michelle (34:52) Yeah.   Mm   Desi (35:07) So we have first is just you, second is the sexual energy, third is your creativity, fourth is love. And so we kind of go back and forth between this me on my own and me with another. And so I think that's really fascinating. So we can start to explore with our partner if we're wishing to conceive, how do we share our energy with one another? And then getting back to nerd science, because I always take it back there, it's also   Michelle (35:15) Mm   Desi (35:36) important to think about how each chakra relates to the endocrine system. And so second chakra, you know, then we're talking about like reproductive hormones. And I learned this because I have thyroid issues. And so I've been on Synthroid for like 35 years. And yes, I'm ready to get off it. And yes, I need to work with an acupuncture as like yesterday. But what I learned is that   Michelle (35:46) Mm   Desi (36:01) fifth chakra or the voice and listen to my voice tremble as I even say that it it's related to the thyroid. So what's happening in in the second chakra and the reproductive hormonal response it's all related and it's my honor and my joy to teach women about their bodies physically and their energy bodies.   Michelle (36:03) Mm -hmm.   Desi (36:27) And I have to just take a moment in gratitude for you because again, I feel this resonance and alignment and you and I speak the same language of Eastern and Western blended.   Michelle (36:40) Yeah, I feel the same way, Desi. I actually really feel resonant with you and what you're saying. I'm like, you're speaking my language. And I think also about the how in between the heart and the mind is the voice. It's kind of like the go between with your heart, which is right there. And so when we're aligned with that, with the love,   I think that that is very healing, just really loving ourselves, accepting ourselves, allowing ourselves that beautiful gift of expression.   Desi (37:12) Amen. And so when we're speaking to one another, just as humans, if I'm working with a client, for example, that's where I always start. Hey, how are you? And actually listening. I don't want to just hear that. Fine, how are you? But like, really, how are you? What's happening? What's happening in your body, your mind and your heart? And let that come through. And as they share their voice,   Michelle (37:25) Mm   Desi (37:38) That's when I start to get impressions of like, okay, we can go here, we can go there. But the simple act of sharing our truth is so important.   Michelle (37:48) without a doubt. I think just listening, just because so many people feel, this is what I hear, that they're not being heard. A lot of times when they go to the doctor, they say, like, I don't really feel like I was heard. I didn't really get a chance to ask my questions. I asked my questions, but they dismissed it. And I feel like that just by itself can really impact you on so many levels of feeling, you know, that feeling of safety or being held or being supported.   So I think just being there as a space to listen and for people to be able to express themselves is such a gift that you can give them. And it was interesting because yesterday we happened to have a live yesterday on Instagram. And you were saying that you really feel in your gut, like I was aligned. I feel the same way about you. I feel in my heart that you are very passionate. Like you are coming from such a   purposeful place with the people that you're working with and with your work, which is really amazing. I love it. I really appreciate that. And to see that, I think that if all of us found our true purpose and work through that passion, that's how we heal.   Desi (39:00) Amen. Yes, thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's received and appreciated. And again, I made a vow to the universe on that day in 2001. This is why I'm here. I continue to honor it, to renew it, and I wake up with my heart full every day.   Michelle (39:24) I love that so much. So for people who are listening to this, because I'm sure that a lot of people are really inspired by everything that you're sharing, how can they find you? How can they work with you? Because I know that you do bring out a lot of your lessons out for people to receive.   Desi (39:41) So you can find me really easily through my website. It's desibartlett .com. I have a whole new subscription platform on there for folks who want to enjoy the body mind workout, which is a combination of meditation, yoga, and fitness. I also have books available that are on there, one of which is called Your Strong Sexy Pregnancy, a yoga and fitness guide. And there is a fertility section in there. So if you're thinking, wait, I'm not pregnant yet.   please know that there is a message there for you as well. I'm also super active on Instagram. You can find me at mothers into living fit. So however I can best help support you on your path, I'm here.   Michelle (40:25) Awesome. Desi, this was such a great conversation. I've really enjoyed all of the conversations that we had even leading up to this. And I'm just so excited to meet another practitioner who I resonate so much with and has so much soul really in what they're doing. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Desi (40:45) Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for all that you're doing and for letting me be a part of it. It's my pleasure.