Welcome to 2025! As we usher in a new year, it's essential to reflect on the whirlwind that was 2024. In our latest episode of SA Voices from the Field, hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis, we delve into the rapid changes that shaped the past year. From the tumultuous political climate to personal and professional upheavals, 2024 was a year of significant transition for us all.

Season 12: Continuing the Conversation With Season 12, we're committed to continuing our deep dive into the past, present, and future of student affairs. Our aim is to provide fresh perspectives and engaging conversations that resonate with higher education professionals globally. Expect insightful narratives from the upcoming annual NASPA conference in New Orleans and beyond. We’re keen to explore uncharted stories within our field and amplify voices from all corners of the world.

Engaging with the Community We thrive on your input and encourage you to connect with us. If you'd like to share your story or suggest a guest, email us at [email protected]. Seeing listeners at the conference brings our mission full circle, turning interactions into valuable, featured content.

Your Role in Our Journey Our podcast flourishes because of your continued support and engagement. We invite you to leave a 5-star review on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify, as your feedback helps us to grow and reach more professionals. Let’s continue to chart the evolving landscape of student affairs together. Thank you for being part of this journey with SA Voices from the Field.

TRANSCRIPT

Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay Voices from the Field host. Happy New Year, Chris.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:28]: Happy New Year, Joe.

Jill Creighton [00:00:29]: Welcome to 2025. What a ride it has been. 2024 flew like that.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:35]: It truly did. I look back and I am still amazed that we're in 2025. It definitely went by really, really fast with everything that happened in the year, in the US, at least, in regards to the crazy political environment. But but I'm excited about a new year.

Jill Creighton [00:00:52]: And with that new year, we thought a lot about the theme, and we announced this actually at the beginning of season 11. So as we enter season 12, because of the transition point we find ourselves in as a profession, we wanted to continue to have this conversation about the past, present, and future of student affairs. So as we continue forward this season, we're gonna stick on that same theme, but we hope to bring you some new perspectives on it. Hoping to bring you some conversations from all over the world, some amazing and insightful conversations from our annual conference coming up in New Orleans. And as always, if you see either Chris or myself wandering around that conference space, I know it's, you know, so 8 weeks from now, we would love to hear your voices. And as this season arises, we also continue to want to hear from you if you have guests or topic suggestions. There's so many stories in student affairs that have yet to be told, and we want to feature you. So, Chris, if someone would like to appear on our show, how can they do that?

Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Easiest way to get on the show is to email us at [email protected]. And as Jill just said, it is really exciting to be able to walk around the conference and to be able to just talk with people and to be able to get some of your own voices on the show. So you will see myself, Jill walking around the conference. And if we ask you, hey, will you lend your voice to an upcoming episode? Please say yes and know that we're not just some strange people walking around the conference recording voices, but we're actually collecting your voice to be a part of that upcoming episode. So it is always exciting to be able to meet people. And if you want to be on a episode when we're in, you're going to be at the conference, you can always reach out as well and we can find a time to be able to connect and get your voice that way as well.

Jill Creighton [00:02:46]: We are so very much looking forward to bringing you another season of SA Voices from the Field. Thank you again for continuing to listen to us. We are only made possible because you choose to listen to us and share the podcast with your colleagues. So if you find our show valuable to you, we would be very grateful if you would leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help people find the show and helps us figure out what it is that you wanna hear. So thank you so much for continuing to be a listener. We look forward to bringing you another season of content on the past, present, and future of student affairs. This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA.

Jill Creighton [00:03:30]: This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices atnaspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the latest episode of NASPA’s Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast, hosts Dr. Jill Creighton dive deep into the evolving landscape of student affairs. Joined by Dr. Cherry Callahan, former Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and her daughter, Dr. Kat Callahan, a Senior Lecturer in Leadership Studies, the episode unveils diverse career pathways and shifting priorities within student affairs.

Accidental Beginnings and Varied Career Paths

Dr. Cherry Callahan’s entry into student affairs was anything but traditional. Originally aiming to be a high school counselor, her career trajectory shifted after accepting a counseling position at Delaware State College. Her involvement in orientation programs led to a formal role as the Director of Orientation, marking the start of a venerable career. Interestingly, Cherry never worked in residence life, a conventional entry point for many professionals in the field.

Similarly, Dr. Kat Callahan’s path was unplanned. Without specific career goals during college, she found herself teaching high school and coaching basketball until gravitating towards higher education. Dr. Kat’s focus on leadership education showcases the versatility within student affairs, highlighting the various ways professionals can contribute to holistic student development.

From Emotional Development to Student Learning

Throughout the episode, the Callahans emphasize a significant shift in student affairs from focusing solely on social and emotional development to incorporating student learning and out-of-classroom experiences. This evolution underscores the importance of preparing students not just academically but as well-rounded individuals equipped for life beyond college.

Holistic Student Development and DEI

A consistent theme in Dr. Kat Callahan’s work is the focus on holistic development and leadership education. Integrating Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) principles, Kat’s approach ensures that student affairs professionals consider the identities and purposes of students, promoting a comprehensive developmental framework. This paradigm shift is critical in preparing students for leadership roles and fostering a sense of community.

Lessons from History: A Forward-Looking Perspective

The Callahans also reflect on the influences of civil rights and women’s movements on student affairs. Dr. Cherry Callahan recounts her experiences fostering positive student engagement amidst historical turbulence. Both guests acknowledge the increased emphasis on mental health and business-like operations in contemporary student affairs, suggesting a mixed yet hopeful outlook for the profession’s future.

Empowerment and Mentorship

Empowerment is a central theme in the Callahans' discussion. Dr. Kat Callahan leverages her mother’s extensive knowledge, bringing her into classrooms to share insights with students. This intergenerational dialogue enhances learning, bridging historical perspectives with current practices. Such mentorship underscores the familial bond within the student affairs community, vital for professional growth.

A Vision for the Future

As we look ahead, the Callahans advocate for prioritizing student well-being, understanding systemic issues, and continuously adapting educational programs. Their insights remind us of the enduring impact of student affairs on shaping resilient, socially conscious leaders.

In conclusion, this episode of “Student Affairs Voices from the Field” brings forth invaluable lessons and reinforces the importance of diverse pathways, holistic development, and inclusive practices in student affairs. With professionals like Dr. Cherry and Dr. Kat Callahan leading the charge, the future of student affairs looks promising, well-equipped to tackle modern challenges while nurturing the leaders of tomorrow.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on our season finale of Essay Voices From the Field, we have a very special look into the past, present, and future of student affairs. And for the very first time, we're featuring a mother and a daughter, both professionals in student affairs who can share the arc of their careers as well as the arc of the profession. So it's my sincere pleasure to welcome doctor Cherry Callahan and doctor Kat Callahan. Doctor Cherry m Callahan served as vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro until December of 2017. Upon her retirement, Cherry received the order of the longleaf pine, among the most prestigious awards presented by the governor of North Carolina, recognizing extraordinary service to the state.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:10]: Her first professional position was at Delaware State University where she served as a counselor and director of orientation followed by a brief period as an elementary school counselor before moving to UNCG where she assumed progressively responsible roles culminating in the vice chancellor position. Cherry has been very active and professionally served as president of NASPA in 1998 to 1999. She more recently served as the chair of the NASPA Foundation board of directors and was the recipient of the John l Blackburn Distinguished Pillar of the Profession Award in 2024 and the Fred Turner Award for for distinguished service to NASPA in 2006. Doctor Callahan has served as an elected officer for the board in numerous community and civic organizations. Her primary current community service is with the American Red Cross in which she serves as the North Carolina region training lead for disaster services and also an instructor for disaster classes. Cherry has presented dozens of programs and speeches at professional meetings, served on accreditation teams for SACS and review teams for other colleges and universities, and authored and co-authored several articles and chapters in various publications. She's married to her husband, Mike, who taught history in the Guilford County School System for 30 years, and has 2 daughters, Megan, who's an attorney in Greensboro, and Kathleen, who's on the faculty in the department of leadership and American studies at Christopher Newport University. Our second guest is Doctor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:24]: Kat Callahan, who is currently a senior lecturer in Leadership Studies at Christopher Newport University with expertise in education, student affairs and higher education, and internationalization of higher ed. She earned a PhD in Higher Education from Florida State University, an MED in College Student Affairs from the University of South Florida, and a BA in sociology from NC State University. Doctor Callahan has developed leadership curricula, advised students, and served in academic and administrative roles at institutions, including William and Mary, Florida State University, and Winthrop University. Her research and teaching focuses on cultural relevance in leadership education and development and the internationalization of the history of student affairs in higher education. She is published widely, contributed to global leadership initiatives, and held leadership roles in NASPA, the International Leadership Association, and IACIS. Doctor Callahan is the director of the IACIS Student Leader Global Summit and an experienced keynote speaker and workshop facilitator. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I loved having it, and we'll see you next season. I'm very excited to have our our very first parent child student affairs professional duo on the show today to talk about the past, present, and future of student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:31]: So first, let me welcome pillar of the profession, doctor Cherry Callahan.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:03:35]: Hi, Jill. It's really my pleasure to be here with you today and my daughter.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:39]: And also Dr. Kat Callahan.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:03:41]: Hi, everyone. Thanks for having us, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:44]: When Chris and I were incepting how we wanted to present the arc of the past, present, and future of student affairs, it just immediately came to mind. Do we have any families that are doing this work or have done this work across time? All of us, I think, like to joke that really no one grows up saying I wanna be a student affairs professional. But, Cherry, you might be the exception to this rule. Oh, you're you're shaking your head no. We'll get into that for sure. But, Cherry, you're retired from the field now. Cherry, you're deep in your career in the field. We always like to start our show by asking our guests how they got to our current seat.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:16]: So, Cherry, yours being retirement. But can you tell us a little bit about your career arc into and through the profession?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:04:23]: Okay. I guess it all goes back to the day when I was leader as an undergrad and very involved in the co curriculum. And I never really thought about student affairs even at that point because my ultimate goal at that time was to become a public school high school counselor. So I actually did a master's degree in counseling. And on the eve of my marriage to my husband, Kat's dad, I became aware of a position at a college in Delaware, Delaware State College, now Delaware State University, and they were advertising for a counselor. And Mike being from Massachusetts and me being from the Carolinas, we had kinda decided we wanted to live somewhere between the two geographic spaces. So I looked at it and I went in for the interview 2 weeks before our wedding and got the job. So I landed in a college counseling center quite by accident because it ultimately was not my goal.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:05:24]: And before you knew it, I was observing the orientation program and I said to the dean of students who hired me, I've got some thoughts about orientation. Would you be willing to listen to them? He said, sure. So 2 days later, I had the title director of orientation slapped on my shoulders along with the counselor and that's what really kick started my career in student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:46]: That was a very busy week for you here.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:05:48]: Busy. Yes. Yes. But pretty typical of my life as a whole. They're all pretty busy.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:55]: And, Kat, you are currently working at Christopher Newport University. Can you tell us how you landed in your current seat?

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:06:00]: Yes. So, unlike mom, I did not have goals in college. I was an RA, and I played intramural sports. That was what I knew about student affairs, and obviously my mother was the vice chancellor of student affairs. Yet, I never drew those parallels. But I did not know what I wanted to do after college. So I took a year off, and I ended up teaching high school and coaching basketball as following my father's footsteps. And then about halfway through the year, I was like, you know, I really liked that RA job.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:06:28]: Maybe there's something to that. So went through student affairs, went through my graduate program, went through my entry level job, be one of the typical routes through residence life, and into my PhD. And in my PhD, transitioned to leadership education, leadership development. So that's how I landed as a senior lecturer in leadership studies where I am today.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:06:48]: And, you know, it's interesting that I am one of a rare breed who never worked in residence life. I came through counseling, and as I've interacted with my peers over the years, almost everybody's been in residence life in one shape or another. I was never even an RA. So I'm a little atypical from that in that perspective.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:09]: You and I share that, Cherry. I did not serve as an RA in undergrad, and I did not have a hall director position or even an assistant directorship or directorship in residence life. I was more raised in the student involvement, civic engagement space, and health promotion, and then finally, student involvement, civic engagement space, and health promotion. And then finally, student conduct was kind of the primary thread through, how I got started in student affairs. But I did end up supervising residence life when I was in an AVP seat. So we are out there if you're listening, and you're like, how do I do this without ResLife?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:07:36]: That's right.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:36]: Jerry, can you talk a little bit about what the profession was like when you first entered the field in terms of the value set that you were operating through, the priorities of the profession, that type of thing?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:07:48]: Quite different from what it is today. There's no question about that. And I think the primary mindset was focused on how to get students engaged in their curricular life. It's always been there, but I think my supervisor at that time was born out of the civil rights movement, the women's movement. And that really bore the, I guess, the hallmark of student conduct and how students behaved. And so student affairs was leaned on to how can we get our students engaged in positive ways as opposed to protest and so forth. So we were more of a, I hate to use the word judicial, but I guess conduct focused. And my role in that and when I'm talking about my supervisor at that time, that was my supervisor at my second higher education job.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:08:41]: At my first higher education job at Delaware State, it was really more focused on helping the students adjust to this new environment and getting them actively engaged in that new environment away from home and helping them understand the challenges that come with pursuing a college degree amongst a population where college degrees were not as common. Because as many people know, Delaware State is an HBCU, and I was somewhat of an anomaly in that environment because I was a young white female. But it really did focus on that adjustment period and that in loco parentis domain. And then as I transitioned a few years later into the position at the University of North Carolina from where I ultimately retired, there was a little bit of that left, but a lot of it had dissipated because of all of the social movements that were taking place in the early seventies.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:41]: And it's probably swinging back towards a more model now, especially from a student care perspective as we're seeing the mental health concerns of college students come more to the forefront of our work. So, Kat, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you see the current state of the profession, especially in terms of what your priorities are in teaching.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:10:00]: So it's always fun with these types of conversations just because my specific area of knowledge within the student affairs field is the history of student affairs. So I teach history of, and so listening to mom talk about that evolution, and as we've learned from all of our history textbooks, it started within loco parentis, and it has evolved in a lot of different ways. And I think we know from history that things kinda circle back in different capacities. So how I teach my students today is probably very different than I would have taught 20 years ago when I first entered into the field. And I've seen a couple shifts already within the 15 years that I've been teaching. And this year specifically has a new type of student on campus that I'm in the probably the last shift I had before that was maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Definitely, our diversity, equity, and inclusion, that piece of conversation is consistent, has been consistent in my entire time in the field. And now it's a theme that we talk about all the time.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:10:58]: And here in Virginia where I am, DEI is a hot topic because we have to look at the state and the federal government when we're talking about these types of things. So the context matters, and context within student affairs matters. So DEI is a big theme in teaching. When you teach leadership education as a whole, leadership has evolved. So I say alongside of the field of student affairs is the field of leadership studies. You can see this in Suzette Kovev Ed's work and Denny Roberts and how they in the beginning when mom's talking about her 1st years in student affairs, that is kind of the beginning of leadership studies. So these 2 stepchildren of fields are walking side by side in a very interesting way and evolving. Student development is evolving at the very beginning when mom started and has a good foothold in the early 2000 when I get into the field.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:11:51]: I get into conversations within my master's program. So student development has a stronghold. Leadership development has a stronghold, and these two things just evolve in this very beautiful way that I don't know if a lot of people see the connection between the 2, which has led me to create my leadership in higher education class, where I bring those two fields together, and we talk about the history of, because we have to know context of all things. History of student affairs, history of higher education, and history of education leadership development through where we are today and the complexity nature of things. Obviously, the conversation around diversity, equity, and inclusion, and really the critical conversations and critical theory that's coming through that did not exist 20 years ago. So I would say all of these pieces of the curriculum have evolved and are now cornerstones in how we do both student affairs, higher education, and leadership.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:12:49]: I was just gonna mention that I know in it was in 1979, I believe, when at the university, I recognized the First Gay Student Association. And it was not well received by the alumni of the university. And there were all kinds of calls for we're no longer gonna donate to the university. We're not gonna do this. And so I go back to that time, and I think about it. Again, that was 1979, and this was at UNC Greensboro, which previously had been the Woman's College of the University of North Carolina System. So it had always been focused on educating women. And so when we got to the late seventies, and then it was into the early eighties when we established our first, what we call, Office of Minority Student Affairs.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:13:41]: So I guess when I listened to Kat talk about DEI, I was on the cusp of those developments in the field of student affairs as we created and recognized those populations who were not the traditional white male and female populations. And a lot has transpired over the years since that time. In fact, it's it's amazing to me how slow at times it seems to have been, but how fast in the context of history we have gotten to the point that we are cognizant of the richness that lies in the diversity not only of ideas in higher education, but diversity of the populations with whom we work in higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:27]: That's a really important reminder to all of us who I think are very much struggling with the current landscape of JEDIB work in America. It often feels like one step forward, 3, 5, 10 steps backwards. And also to remember that when the profession was just starting to emerge, none of these things existed. So there is tangible progress, but there's still so much work to be done for sure.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:14:51]: And, you know, last week, I was actually at William and Mary. I took my leadership in higher education class to William and Mary because we go look at the Wren building, the the the oldest building that exists within the United States higher education system, in which we talk about the Lemon Project. And and that's the recognition of enslaved individuals who contributed to the university and and built the university. And the point came across that William and Mary has owned slaves longer than they have not owned slaves today. And just that point of context also is an important reminder of the long term effects of this country and how we built higher education as a whole.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:30]: And an important reminder that the history of enslaved people in the United States is not just in the fabric of society, but it's also baked into our higher education system. And and then when we look at oppression of students of color in particular in higher ed, it it's easy to trace a line through the origins. So that is a disturbing fact as well. And William and Mary is founded, what, 15 30 4 ish? Late 1600. Late 1600. Oh, I'm sorry, doctor Tom Sherman, for forgetting my date from my higher ed history class. But in all of that, kind of keeping that in our history lessons, I think, is a really critical element of looking forward. And I wonder too how our curriculum may or may not change based on legislation that may or may not be coming over the next couple of years.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:16:13]: That raises an interesting question because, the curriculum has had to change over the course of time. And obviously, when it relates to the history and to inclusion initiatives, but also in terms of business. And I hate to put that in there, but how do we move forward in long range planning in terms of developing a budget, in terms of managing personnel and so forth? That was never even a teardrop in the sea of whatever when we were developing our higher education programs. And now it is because we're not a business. We are focused on student services, but yet there are those elements that have kind of crept in to the work that we do in student affairs. And it's particularly important as you advance in the field and you move into management positions that you carry that skill set forward as well. That didn't exist when I came through. I was trained to be a counselor period.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:17:14]: And then all of a sudden, it kinda lands in your lap and you say, oh, I don't know how to do this. So, yes, we need to constantly continue to assess what we're teaching in our programs and make sure that it's relevant.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:28]: I'm wondering if the 2 of you can talk about how you've utilized each other's expertise, experiences, and generational viewpoints to approach the work and to learn from each other.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:17:38]: I'm gonna let Kat yeah. No. I'm gonna let you speak to that first Kat.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:17:41]: Because I've come to you a lot. Yeah. I mean, at the very beginning of my career, I looked to mom a lot just because she had this vast knowledge of the system of both higher education and student affairs. And I've brought her into classes to speak to graduate students and undergraduate students to have conversations about what the field looks like, the state of the field, the past of the field. I think I utilize mom in a different way than she utilizes me, and I am looking forward to hearing what she has to say. But I utilize mom as a, these are the things that are going on. How have you seen this present itself in the past? How do you think I can work through this? What is your advice to deal with a person like this? And it's very, like, specific to a situation versus mom who I think takes a bigger picture approach when coming to me and asking questions. I can't think of anything specific.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:18:32]: I don't know about that. I know I, on occasion, leaned on Kat when I was trying to understand the mindset of the younger generation. I knew my children, and I knew kinda where their heads were, although none of us as parents truly know where our children's mindsets are all of the time. But I would get her perspective as I was dealing with issues. And and like you, Kat, I'm trying to think of a specific incident or incidents that I would lean on you to kinda have a better understanding of where the minds were of young people on certain issues, probably, and most likely, political issues or inclusion issues or not so much history, even though you had a better sense of the history of the profession than I did because I was kinda living it while you were studying it. And that makes a difference because when you're in the midst of something, you don't really understand all the forces that are coming into play. And Kathleen had that historical context that would help clarify that. But I think that's I would say I I used her more often to kinda make sure I was grounded in the reality of today as opposed to where I was 20, 30 years ago.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:19:53]: And I don't know. I think we did lean on each other for a lot of things. And I, having you as a mother, came with a lot of privilege. At NASPA Conferences, I wasn't really hanging out with people my age. I was hanging out with mom and her friends. And that's just, you know, I would stay with mom because I was a young individual who didn't have a lot of money. So I would tag along to those types of things. And so I got perspective from giants in the field that have really helped shape where I've come in my understanding of the big picture student affairs higher ed.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:20:25]: And then I think my day to day interactions with students keeps me grounded in that sense and just being younger than mom and her friends. So I do think we lean it on each other. And I mom, when I was saying the big picture piece, and maybe you didn't realize this, sometimes you just would call and I would then give you perspective of you've been in this field for how long, and you still need to make sure you're taking care of yourself.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:20:49]: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:20:49]: It's the little things that we sometimes forget when we're taking care of others, and mom take loves to take care of others and sometimes forgets about herself in that process. And I'm like, literally what you tell your staff, it's what you tell your students to do. And I have to be the reminder for her sometimes. And so that's where I think that I've helped you over the years.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:21:09]: You've hit something there on the head. And I know all of us in student affairs, you know, we have a finite group on whom we can lean when we're struggling with an issue. When I was vice chancellor and I faced a certain issue, and I was the only vice chancellor for student affairs on my campus. So I leaned on my colleagues across the country. How did you deal with this issue? What suggestions would you have under these circumstances? And that kind of thing. And I think there were times when I leaned on Kat, not necessarily the high level decisions that I had to make, but I knew she knew the field. And if I had an issue that I needed to talk through, there were times I would call Kat and say, okay. I'm dealing with a student and here's the situation.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:21:53]: What are your thoughts on this? How would you address this if you had to face this situation? So there was that common core of what we were doing in the field, but looking at it from different perspectives, from different generations that I think enriched both of us.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:22:10]: Yeah. I get it. It leads back to the privilege that we had having each other because there are so many people in this field. Their families do not understand what they do. And so it's that common understanding simply that was very helpful for us that we have when most people in the field do not have that.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:22:28]: And you really hit a good point there because whenever I know as as I was maturing in the field and people said, what do you do? And and I would tell them what I did, and they didn't have a clue. They didn't understand. And, oh, so you're a teacher. Well, no. That's not exactly what I do. But you're in education. You I said, no. And I think from a parent child perspective, that's very true because we got it.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:22:54]: We got it. We understood it. Now did you understand it as you were growing up? Probably not because I would take you to campus to participate in a fall kickoff celebration where you were there as the vice chancellor was sitting in the dunking tank or you were playing games with the spin the what is the reel that you spend to see what prize you're gonna win. So that's the way you saw student affairs as a child compared to what you saw it as you matured and came into the field.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:23:23]: There's a huge difference between mom and I. Obviously, I am on the academic side now where I teach student affairs, but I watched mom when I was younger. And she recalls the fun events, and I recall those fun events too. I go into braids. I recall child labor and stuffing orientation packets when I was young, but I also recall the calls in the middle of the night. I know the big situations that she had to deal with and I watched her. And when I went into my master's program, people were like, oh, you wanna be just like your mom. You wanna be a vice president.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:23:57]: And I was like, no. I've seen some of the things that I don't want to do. I am in it for students and student development, but I had to find my path separately and know that early on I set boundaries in a way that a lot of young professionals didn't set boundaries because I watched mom go through what she had to go through. So I have been able to utilize her experience to define who I am as a professional. And when you put us side by side, yeah, they're adorable mom, daughter, student affairs couple, but we are very different when we talk about approach, when we talk about personality, when we talk about just how we engage in the world of student affairs in higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:40]: I'm gonna move us into our theme questions for the season. And so this is our season finale for season 11. And so you're going to be the last pair to answer in this particular year, but we'll be continuing with these questions as we kick off season 12. Our question on the past is what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think that we should continue to carry forward or alternatively to let go of?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:25:05]: Oh, that's a tough question.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:25:07]: I know my answer. It very much is the holistic student. We should absolutely that is the foundation of the field. It is a concept that we established in 1937 before anybody else. It is a concept that we still hold today of our students have so much to who they are, all of their identities, and we need to be focused on the whole student, not just their academics, not just the one off involvement, but who are they and how are they fulfilling their purpose. And so 100% with the founders of student affairs, holistic student development.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:25:42]: Well, and I think an a part of that as as I think about this question a little bit more centers on student learning. I think that we did not focus on student learning in the earlier years of the student affairs profession. We focused on student development, but more from a social and emotional basis. And we really, over the years, have come to realize that student learning is just as important, if not more important, to, as Kathleen says, their holistic development. What is it that they learn from their involvement outside the classroom? What is it that they learn outside the classroom that can complement what they're learning in the classroom and will carry forward in terms of their careers? Because there are natural ties between those learning outcomes in terms of running a student organization, managing its budget, developing its bylaws, and so on and so forth that just carry forward into a professional career. Similarly, student organizations that focus on service. And as generations of students have come through, we've seen some generations who really focus on serving others as opposed to other times when they focus more on me me me I I. And that kinda is a cycle in a sense, but we've gotten to the point where serving others, it's still very important, but more recently than not, I feel like people are moving away from that in the field because they're more focused on the individualism of learning and preparing for their future.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:27:27]: And we've got to remember that we need to help preparing for their future. And we've got to remember that we need to help each other, if that makes any sense.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:35]: Coming into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:27:39]: It's easier for me to talk about what doesn't feel good about what's going on in the field of student affairs. And I know this is gonna sound somewhat selfish, but I'm almost glad I retired when I did because there's been a seismic shift in the sense of what the core principles are upon which student affairs is based. It's much more of a business than it used to be. I say that on one hand, but on the other hand, when I think about the mental health crises that we're dealing with in our society as a whole, but in higher education, it's nice to see that we've kind of turned the page and we've really started putting more emphasis, again, it goes back to that holistic student, onto the mental health dimensions of a college student and why that matters as they move forward. So it's like there's 2 sides to that coin. And do I miss the work that I did in student affairs? Yes. It was stressful work. I just can't even imagine today how much more stressful it would be for me than it was when I retired 7 years ago.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:28:44]: I understand that perspective, and especially if you've been in the field for that long and watching things shift over time. For me, in the face of today, in the face of possibilities for the future for higher education, I'm gonna do something uncharacteristic for the people that know me listening to the podcast. Now I'm gonna look at the bright side. Professionals being more able to be adaptive to what's happening on our campus has increased. Our increased access to information, to conversations, to people, the many podcasts that are out there, the many different types of journals and articles that are coming out around student affairs, leadership. We have so much access to things that we did not have back 20, 30 years ago. And our ability to have an impact on what happens in the future. The ability to take students where they are, help them through initiatives on a college campus, things like intergroup dialogue, civil discourse, and really having an impact in helping these students go forth into the world as good leaders and good followers to make a difference.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:29:58]: We have that possibility, and that is the silver lining of where we are right now. And having people in the field, like like a lot of my amazing friends and colleagues around the country, around the world who are doing this work makes me feel hopeful is a word that I haven't used recently, but hopeful.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:18]: Looking towards the future. In an ideal world, what does our field need to be doing to thrive towards the future?

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:30:24]: This is hard.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:30:25]: I think that as a profession, we need to stay focused on the well-being of the student and focused on providing opportunities for them to gain diverse perspectives, to help them get comfortable with respecting those diverse perspectives and knowing themselves and who they are so that as they move into their careers and as they move beyond college campuses, they can make a difference in their communities. Because and I'm gonna use the term leadership. Community leadership is a critical need in all of its dimensions. And when I say community, it can be something as small as a civic organization. It could be a participation in city or county governance or boards or whatever and beyond, but we need to make sure that we have college graduates prepared to step to the plate to make their communities a better place. And they can only do that if they respect and understand the diverse perspectives and the diverse populations with whom they work.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:31:40]: It comes down to the foundation of higher education. We exist for the public good. And if we exist for the public good, we have to acknowledge the systems in place. And we have to acknowledge power and oppression. We have to acknowledge what our system as a whole can do for society. And as mom is talking about, we educate the student for purpose, for leadership. The framework that I'm really identifying with recently is the leadership for liberation framework, and it really does help us to shape and empower our students to go into and it is it is when she says community, it is their major field. It's their careers.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:32:25]: Not everything is a student organization. We're gonna have people working in the shipyard, working on naval ships. We're gonna have people in going in the military. We have engineers and nurses and doctors and teachers. And if we're able to equip students with these soft skills that we've talked about through this podcast, really, we can help to take these broken systems that exist. And whether that is for some that need to be dismantled and built back up, and just providing that support for those students to get to the next level. Whatever that next level is in their own identity, in their own purpose. If we are able to do that, then we're doing what needs to be done in student affairs.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:33:08]: Because we can't fix the world. Some faculty would like to think so, but we can't fix the world. But we do have a hand in shaping it. And that is simply through education, through leadership learning. And that's all we can do as we move forward in the unknowable future.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:33:23]: And I think it's the soft skills that we try and develop and hone during the college years that are the key for everyone's success in how to communicate, how to delegate, how to resolve conflict, how to negotiate conflict but it doesn't have to be conflict. How we negotiate, how do we manage our energy and our time, How do we strategically some of these soft skills are so important and that's where I think student affairs can shine and has been a shining star in terms of student development over the years. And I just have to say this at this juncture. Again, I was kind of back at the cusp, so to speak, not at the very beginning of student affairs, but I was early on in becoming the profession that it is today. And there were a lot of things I didn't know. And listening to Kat talk today, I am so proud of what she's become because she is exuding the professionalism, the energy, and the knowledge that I think is central to our success as a profession in higher education.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:34:37]: On the flip side of that, and it is who I am as a person is I look to some of my colleagues who wouldn't have the opportunity to be in this conversation, who are 10 times the person that I might ever want to become. And those are the voices that I go to when I'm lost in the field. We learn a lot of things. We have access to a lot of information, but we need to make sure that we are empowering the voices of others along this journey because it's my former classmates in my PhD program. It is my colleagues that I've been working with both at my university and within NASPA and IASIS and around the world that have really gotten me to where I am today. And I wouldn't be here without that, as well as mom and her peers. But I think we have a lot of great examples in our field of who to look to. I just wanna shine light on others in this field who are doing the work every single day that didn't have the opportunity to have their mother in the field and understand what's going on.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:35:40]: They're doing the good work regardless.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:35:42]: Well and I think that speaks to the family that student affairs professionals is. We are a family, and we lean on each other whether we're related by blood as Kat and I are, as mother daughter. But in general, we are a family. I count among my closest friends and sisters, people that I've grown to love over the years in the field. And there is so much light, shall we say, at the end of the tunnel when you think of the people that we meet in the field of student affairs, when you think of the people we lean on in the world of student affairs. Even in retirement, I will tell you, I lean on colleagues, some of whom are also retired, But we support each other, we help each other, and we recognize the important work that we've done and that we see moving forward among the students that we have impacted during our careers. There's nothing that feels better than hearing from a former student about the difference we made in their lives while they were on our college campuses. And there's nothing better, nothing more satisfying for all of us.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:36:57]: I mean, I can say it about Kat because she's my daughter, but I can also say it about a lot of other young people and now not so young people given how long I was in the field. I did make a difference in their lives, and they make a difference in mine.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:11]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:17]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's so much happening in NASPA. Coming up on February 18, 2025 is a special professional development opportunity. It is a live web event entitled the First Amendment in Student Activism, a collaborative and culturally responsive approach to developing community. This is brought to you by NASPA advisory services. This webinar will offer a primer on how the First Amendment comes into play in the public square on a public university campus, Following the establishment of a legal and policy foundation, presenters will offer a framework to explore the creation, implementation and outcomes of an effective first amendment and student activism task force. The overarching goal of the presentation is to position attendees to lead and participate in meaningful institutional evolutions that can address the many competing demands related to free speech on public campuses. Learnt skills will include consideration of the equitable implementation of the protocol, development of user friendly educational resources, communication strategies, legal implications, safety, finances, planning, logistics, and community relations.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:35]: As mentioned, this is on February 18, 2025 and you can access more information about it or register for it on the NASPA online learning community. Go to learning.naspa.org for more information. One of the new publications that came out from NASPA this year was a book entitled Student Affairs Professional Preparation, A Scholar Practitioner Guide to Contemporary Topics. This book edited by Jackie Clark and Jeanette Smith, examines critical issues pertinent to today's work on serving college students and the professionals who support them. In this comprehensive volume, distinguished scholars and practitioners offer unique insights into a diverse range of topics, practitioners offer unique insights into a diverse range of topics facing higher education and student affairs. Some chapters address HESA matters that have been central to professional preparation for decades. Others concern aspects that are emerging and evolving in unprecedented ways. Each chapter is written by a team consisting of at least 1 practitioner and one faculty member. This intentional partnership allows for a rich conversation that addresses both professionals in practice, students and faculty and preparation programs. The content can be directly used in practice or in or to generate critical lively conversations in the classroom. The authors have also included excellent resources for further reading and classroom activity. You can find out more in the NASPA bookstore.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:02]: The 2025 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students is happening February 18th to February 20th in Las Vegas, Nevada. The 2025 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students is the association's premier event designated for student affairs practitioners supporting military connected students. This symposium is your exclusive opportunity to share evidence based practices from your campus or organization. You can learn from leading researchers in the field and engage with other professionals committed to supporting military connected students. This 3 day symposium features keynote sessions, research policy and best practices presentations and workshop style sessions to help campus professionals develop or enhance their programming and services for military connected students. We invite you to connect with colleagues, participate in engaging sessions, and learn from dynamic plenary sessions. Find out more on the NASPA website. And finally today, a new issue of the Leadership Exchange came out just recently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:06]: And in this, this issue is focused on the enduring power of historically black colleges and universities. Entitled HBCU Strong, there are a ton of articles talking about the power of HBCUs as well as the importance of these institutions throughout our country. I highly encourage you no matter where you are in your own journey to check out this issue, it is a part of the professional development that you have access to through the NASPA website and through your NASPA membership. If you go to the NASPA website, you can find it very easily by going to naspa.org, go to publications, and then the Leadership Exchange Magazine. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:49]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:19]: Chris, thank you so much for wrapping up season 11 with this NASPA world. We always really appreciate what's going on in and around NASPA. Alright. Cherry and Cat, we have reached our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for the 2 of you to answer. We usually give about 90 seconds for a single guest, so we'll give you like 2 minutes for this. Alright. Question 1.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:39]: If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:43:42]: I'm gonna say, We Are the World.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:43:45]: Yeah. Bring them out. Hi, Tia.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:47]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:43:51]: An army nurse.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:43:53]: Dolphin trainer.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:54]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:43:57]: My second supervisor in student affairs, Jim Allen, who was vice chancellor for student affairs when I was hired to work at UNC Greensboro.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:44:09]: It's a tie between Bob Schwartz and Kathy Guthrie.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:12]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:44:14]: Servant leadership.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:44:15]: Mine is Denny Robert leadership in higher education. I don't remember the exact title.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:20]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately. The Voice. Heartstopper. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:44:28]: You're not gonna like the answer to this question. I don't listen to podcast.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:44:32]: It's called Scholar Tea.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:33]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:44:37]: I would be remiss if I didn't give a shout out to Kevin Kruger, whose support over the many years he served on NASPA staff and all the support that he gave me as I grew to become a NASPA leader. I was on the NASPA board when he was first hired by Liz Nuss, and I was impressed by his youthfulness and his energy. And he truly has inspired me over the many, many years in terms of his leadership style, his capacity to make change at a time when change was needed.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:45:11]: I have so many. I wouldn't be here without all of mom's friends. Kevin, obviously, Gwen Dungy, Cree Kevin, Lisa, v, Sally, Shauna. All my friends already called out Bob and Kathy. All my professors, Tom Miller.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:45:24]: Oh, I could give a whole litany of of long names too, but I just stopped with the one, but I could give you a dozen right off the top of my head.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:31]: It's been such a pleasure to learn from both of you today and hear your different perspectives on how you approach the work. We really appreciate you both taking the time to spend some time with us today. And if others would like to learn from you after the show, how can they find you?

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:45:43]: The easiest way to find me, although I will be honest, I don't check it all the time, is through my UNCG email address, which is [email protected]. I'm also in LinkedIn if you ever think about wanting to check there. But again, I'm retired, so don't count on immediate responses if you need them. Go through Kat and you can get to me.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:46:09]: I'm also on LinkedIn and Instagram, doctor Kat Wolf 21.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:14]: Thank you so much for sharing your voices with us today.

Dr. Kat Callahan [00:46:17]: Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Cherry Callahan [00:46:20]: Yes. It's been fun. Thank you, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:26]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Reflecting on Historical Context and Embracing Future Innovations

In the latest episode of SA Voices from the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton hosts Dr. Amy E. French, Associate Professor at Bowling Green State University (BGSU), for a riveting discussion on the evolving landscape of student affairs. In this episode, Dr. French shares her professional journey, touches on the historical significance of student affairs, and details future innovations in integrative learning and social justice within the field.

The Journey from Alumni Relations to Academia

Dr. Amy E. French's path to academia is rich with diverse experiences and significant milestones, starting with her involvement in student government and advocacy at Kentucky Wesleyan College. This early exposure to leadership and activism paved the way for her continued studies in social justice at Loyola University Chicago. Transitioning from working in alumni relations and advancement, Dr. French was inspired by mentors like Dr. Candice Hinton to pursue a PhD in Higher Education Leadership, ultimately leading to her role as a faculty member at BGSU.

Throughout the episode, Dr. French emphasizes the importance of listening to students, colleagues, and the community to drive program development. Her dedication to addressing student needs and fostering an inclusive environment is evident in her leadership of the College Student Personnel (CSP) program at BGSU.

Program Legacy and Historical Significance

The CSP program at BGSU holds a legacy built upon addressing student affairs' demands during tumultuous times, with the work of Gerald Saddlemyer as a cornerstone. Dr. French recounts the program's historical roots, including the commemoration of the Kent State shootings via sister statues. These events highlight the profound impact student affairs professionals have had in guiding students through periods of crisis.

Dr. French shares how the program's history continues to shape its present and future objectives. Celebrating its 60th anniversary, the BGSU CSP program plans to honor its legacy with an 18-month-long series of festivities, reflecting on the program's significant contributions to student development and higher education.

Adapting to Post-COVID Realities

The global pandemic undeniably altered the fabric of higher education, prompting a shift in student priorities and expectations, especially in residential life and Greek organizations. Dr. French discusses how these changes have influenced BGSU's program, pushing a curriculum revision focused on holistic professional development and training for students.

Innovative curriculum updates are slated for the upcoming fall, aiming to keep pace with evolving student needs. This includes the integration of AI technology using 360-degree cameras for experiential learning, further emphasizing student development theories and practical applications in a rapidly changing world.

Embracing Social Justice and Identity Development

A pivotal aspect of the CSP program under Dr. French’s leadership is a robust focus on social justice and identity development. Recognizing the importance of these elements, she advocates for a curriculum that starts with current student understandings of power, privilege, and oppression. This approach equips students with the skills needed to challenge oppressive structures and promotes an inclusive and equitable campus environment.

The Role of Graduate Assistantships

Graduate assistantships play a vital role in student development at BGSU, offering hands-on experience and professional growth opportunities. Dr. French highlights the support from administration in funding these positions, contributing to high student satisfaction and the overall success of the program.

Additionally, she emphasizes that reflective practice is integral to BGSU’s approach, with dedicated classes each semester that adapt to student needs and fill curricular gaps. An elective on campus politics will soon be introduced, helping students navigate advocacy and internal bureaucracy more effectively.

Enhancing Student Affairs Through Communication and Collaboration

Effective communication between graduate prep programs and practitioners is crucial for preparing future student affairs professionals. Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Amy French discuss this dynamic, with Dr. French shedding light on forums like the NASPA Faculty Institute and collaborations among Ohio program coordinators. These platforms focus on curriculum development, funding, marketability, and employability, essential factors in enhancing the relevance and effectiveness of student affairs education.

Looking to the Future: Storytelling and Advocacy

Dr. French underscores the significance of storytelling in student affairs, using personal anecdotes and historical context to illustrate the field’s human aspect. By maintaining personal archives like thank you notes and embracing the passions of incoming students, professionals can stay motivated and inspired.

She also stresses the need for student affairs to challenge outdated practices and remain open to new approaches. This openness to evolution ensures that programs stay relevant and impactful amidst changing dynamics within higher education.

In closing, the podcast episode with Dr. Amy E. French is a testament to the transformative power of student affairs. By honoring its history, adapting to contemporary challenges, and embracing innovative approaches, the field can continue to support and empower students through their academic and personal journeys.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices, we welcome Dr. Amy e French, sheher. Dr. French is an associate professor in the school of counseling, higher education, leadership, and foundations at Bowling Green State University, where she also serves as coordinator of the college student personnel graduate program. She holds a bachelor's in political science from Kentucky Wesleyan College, a master's degree in social justice from Loyola University Chicago, and a Dr.ate in higher education leadership from Indiana State University. Dr. French's current research foundation includes cultural consciousness on college campuses, campus reimagination, and community connection within student affairs. Her favorite scholarly activity is the opportunity to teach brilliant scholars who strive to make a positive impact on students during their collegiate years and beyond.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]: When Dr. French is not on campus, she's often spotted walking and hiking with her dog, boss Chewy McScruff, in the parks across the country. Amy, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:01:21]: Good morning.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:22]: Glad to be crossing time zones again. We were talking to you today from Ohio. You are currently an associate professor at Bowling Green, but the thing we're most excited to talk to you about today is the past, present, and future of graduate prep programs for student affairs professionals. You're still in, what's being termed the college student personnel program, which is a name I know that BG has held for a very long time. We'll get into all of that. But before we talk about your expertise in this area, we always love to start our episodes by getting to know our guests by asking, how did you get to your current seat?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:01:54]: Oh my goodness. How did I get to my current seat? Well, I was very involved as an undergrad student at Kentucky Wesleyan College, a very small private school in Kentucky in Western Kentucky. And I was hyper involved in student government and student activities and pretty active as well as, I led several campus protests and did a lot of advocacy work. And from there, I actually went and got my master's at Loyola in social justice, not in student affairs. I sort of know about student affairs at the time. So I did some great work at Loyola and actually found myself working in alumni and advancement, a couple of small private schools after I graduated. And then that's kind of what led me into pursuing my higher ed PhD. And, actually, that was when one of my faculty members at the time, Dr. Candice Hinton, said, you know what? I think you should think about this faculty gig.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:02:51]: I think this really would suit you and your personality, and I just think it'd be great. And so I kinda laughed at her at first, and then she was like, no. But I'm not kidding. And then so she planted the seed, and it took all of about 2 weeks for me to call her back and say, hey. You know what? About that thing, how do I do that? And so began my kind of pursuit into the faculty side of the house. So I went from alumni and advancement, working full time during my PhD program, and then eventually, actually became a graduate assistant for a couple years. And then a lecturer at Indiana State University, and then actually went up as an assistant professor and became an associate professor at Indiana State. And then Bowling Green, you know, gave me a shot, and here we are.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:35]: And you're going back through the P and T process now. Yes?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:03:38]: Yes. Yes. All my documents are submitted. Everything is looking good.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:42]: Congratulations preemptively. I'm sure it's gonna be smooth sailing.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:03:46]: Stay tuned for a hopeful party in April in Bowling Green. There'll be a party.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:50]: Well, you're currently directing the CSP program, as I mentioned, or college student personnel program, which is the higher ed master's prep program at BG, which has long held a reputation for being an incredibly well rounded, robust, well well reputationaled program in the field. So tell us about what drew you to be leading this work.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:04:11]: Yeah. So I'll be honest. I was so excited after applying to the Bowling Green State position. I was like, oh, I don't know. You know, this is a big deal. And I'll be honest. When I went for the interview, everything kind of fell into place. It was what I was looking for professionally as a challenge.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:04:27]: It was scholarly, invigorating, and I really liked the people and the students, of course. I mean, best of the best. And so that kinda drew me into Bowling Green. And then once I got here, of course, learning more about the history, I knew about its long standing traditions. But to really get some one on one time to interact with Dr. Carney Strange at the Black Swamp Festival, to, you know, sit and talk with Dr. Mike Coombs. And, again, for them to just pour in that programmatic history as a maritime faculty was really great. And then getting to work with Dr. Ellen Broido, we have a lot of fun. And so this is my 3rd year, and I've really been intentional about listening to the students, listening to the community, listening to the faculty, and working collaboratively to try to make some decisions to lead us lead us into the next 60 years.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:05:19]: So we just celebrated our 60th anniversary as a program. Technically, it doesn't end until December, but it depends on who's asking and who's looking at the history books. But so I signed it for last year, but we're gonna celebrate for 18 months because why not? Who doesn't love a party?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:35]: So looking at the kind of longevity of the program as well as your role in carrying the program from the present into the future, what are some of the historical markers of, college student personnel program or higher ed masters that had been really important for higher ed students of the past?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:05:54]: Oh, yeah. Of the past. Well, goodness. So Gerald Saddlemyer, which which we have several lectures here at Bowling Green State, but also I believe some NASPA and ACPA awards named after Dr. Saddlemyer. He really paved the way for the program here at Bowling Green State, and I think that was at a time when campuses were quite tumultuous, when there wasn't crisis management training, when our student affairs professionals were really in the line of literal fire. In some instances, I'm thinking specifically about, you know, Kent State and learning what we've learned now from Dr. Erica Eckert's work and learning from those student affairs professionals at the time and what they were going through and what they were wrestling with, I think speaks a lot to why student affairs became a professional endeavor. And so looking at how do we train folks to really support undergraduate students as they're transitioning, as campuses become more chaotic in some ways, but I think also just more demanding in general. And so I think that's really where it started was we recognized a long time ago that there's more to college than what happens in the classroom, and it really is about those developmental components.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:07:03]: It's about being a good citizen. It's about learning to manage conflict. It's about all of those things about being a person in our democracy. And so I think that's really what started BG's program, was that initial realization that, hey, we need folks who understand college students. And it was also at a time when we were learning more about college students. Right? Student development theory was just starting to emerge as a field of study. And so I think those things combined really formulated this pretty awesome lightning in a bottle moment for the Midwest, really.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:39]: I'm going to give a shout out to Dr. Erica Eckert, as you mentioned. If you're a long time listener of the show, we did an episode with her a couple of years ago now. And if you're new to the show, I would highly encourage you to go back and listen. It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever recorded. We did a 2 part where Dr. Eckert and I talked about the history of the Kent State shootings that happened in the sixties. And then the second part of the episode is we had the 4 administrators who were responsible for responding to that incident on the show. And it was wonderful to hear their perspectives on what emergency management and crisis management sounded like at the time. If you can imagine doing this in an era before cell phones.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:15]: I believe one of them said that they had to run into a restaurant on the main street and find a phone, and they were literally printing flyers for students with information and all these other things. So I appreciate that that's part of the grounding of the BG program as well as looking at what those problems were in that era.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:08:31]: Yeah. And we actually both programs came on board around the same time, and there's actually 2 statues, sister statues on our campuses honoring those who passed away from the Kent State shootings.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:42]: Now you've taken this program with a tremendous amount of history. You entered going, I'm going to listen a lot and try to figure out what to do with it. What was the state and priorities of the program when you inherited leadership?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:08:54]: Yeah. I think coming out of COVID, our field looks different. Our students are I wouldn't say totally different. I think our students are amazing rock star students, but their priorities are different as well after the pandemic as are the expectations placed upon our site supervisors. And so everything kind of shifted. Priorities with funding, priorities with what is expected of grad students in the work. And I'm thinking specifically about residential life, fraternity and sorority life, some of those really face to face student positions. And so we had some real conversations about, okay, what does it look like to be within this field with a new so our student affairs units had been restructured several times in the last few years.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:09:38]: And so working with those campus partners to look at what supporting our graduate students would be like, because I wanted to make sure that it's not just a student worker position. I really wanted to make sure that they're getting that training and the supervision to help them develop as full professionals. So that was a priority. The curriculum was a big priority as well. And so I've spent the last two and a half years really interrogating the curriculum, talking to faculty to understand some of the history of some of those components. And we're in the process of some, I think, pretty innovative and cool curriculum revisions that will hopefully take place next fall, if all things go through the proper channels on time. But I think we've got some pretty innovative things about to happen within our curriculum that kind of in some ways, it's definitely not changing all that much because there's still the focus on the history. There's still the focus on student development theory and some of the practical elements.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:10:39]: But in some ways, we're kind of we're polishing it up, and we're we're adding some different Legos to the to the scaffolding. So I'm I'm pretty excited. So those were the top pieces.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: Are you able to share what any of those shiny new Legos are?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:10:51]: I can't say too much yet, but what I will say is we're gonna, in in some ways, double down on student development theory because one of the critiques and or challenges that our students have when they're in a 2 year master's program is really applying the theory, and so I will share that there's going to be a class that really looks at that directly. It's kind of beyond student development theory, and it's beyond student development theory 2.0 into more of an applied integration of theory. And even talking to professionals to interrogate, how do they do that? What are the ways? Because I think a lot of times we're doing that. We're just not using the words, the specific theory names, or the specific aspects, but it's definitely theory informed practice. And so I think this program being rooted in the historical underpinnings that it has, I think it's really important that we double down on our story. And so that's one aspect. Another component is going to be intentionally engaging with artificial intelligence. And I'm really pumped about that.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:11:57]: And I'm still doing some training with some new software folks. But one of the aspects that I will give you a little teaser is we've got some 360 degree cameras, and our students are gonna be going places throughout the country looking at college spaces in some new ways. So I'm really pumped about it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:15]: I love the aspect of tech integration into the modern curriculum of student affairs. It's definitely where we're going, and we've had a couple of episodes this season that talk about AI. I wanna loop back to the conversation on theory though, especially as someone who's innovating the curriculum. We've always had this tension in the field about the social justice aspects of the historical underpinnings of who our theories were created by and for. How are you addressing that tension with the modern day aspect of going, we still need to apply the basics of understanding how students are developing throughout their 4 years.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:12:48]: Yeah. So I think that's a fantastic question. And it's gonna sound cheesy, but I think the example that I'm gonna use is gonna fall on the green book. Right? So so the latest edition

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:59]: The famous green book.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:13:00]: The current edition starts with identity development and goes backwards as opposed to starting with the foundations and moving forward. And so I think that's a really important aspect. Our students, what I'm finding when I teach student development theory to today's student, they already understand identity development to certain extents. They already understand certain aspects of power, privilege, and oppression, but it's the integration of how does all of this make sense? What does this do? How do I listen and learn from others to engage with the students that I'm interfacing with to support them in their development. And so I think in a lot of ways, the social justice aspects and the diversity and the equity components are going to be infused throughout. But instead of it being like a day that we talk about sexual identity development, it's going to be more integrated throughout. It's gonna be those woven threads. I think the challenge is our books don't do that because they kind of can't.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:14:00]: In order to talk about the theories and explain the nuances, you do have to have a chapter on racial identity development. Certainly. And then what do we do next? And so the way that we're framing it is almost backwards. So we're starting where we are now and going from, like, kind of that archaeological component as Dr. Ali Watts would say, like using that layering backwards component. So I'm excited about it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:23]: BG has also had historical underpinnings as a program, if I recall correctly, that really emphasizes or even has maybe required graduate students to also have an assistantship placement throughout the program, which there has been conversations in the field for a while about the value of that or whether or not that's necessary to prepare functional practitioners. So I'm wondering if you can talk about how that is currently nestled in the structure, as well as how the program views the value of that practical experience in that 2 year program.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:14:53]: Absolutely. So we think we at Bowling Green think that is a critical component to the developmental aspects. I think there's something really powerful that happens when a student comes in and begins learning the academic material and they're being exposed to new professional spaces, right, and new student groups. And so while that 1st semester might be a blur for students, to be fair, right, because it's all new and they're they're soaking it all in and they're like, wait, how do I grad student? Because that's a verb now. But truly, they're getting all of that comprehensive material and that information in a way that really sets them apart. And so we at Bowling Green still have full paying tuition, graduate assistantships. They also pay a stipend. Some live on campus within our housing communities.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:15:42]: Some don't have housing. Well, many campuses are losing that funding, and we have the support of our administration to continue with those and and even increase them. There's a really tough tension, I think, between the financial components though as graduate student stipends increase and then the the pay of an emerging professional still being lower than it should be. So there's some really tough balances, but our institution has committed to supporting those assistantships because they are an integral part of even our undergraduate student experience. BG has been ranked number 1 as the I think it's the top student satisfaction campus in the Midwest, and that to me directly correlates with our priority on student affairs and higher education. Right? It's our graduate students who are interacting with undergraduate students, supporting them, offering challenges, listening to their ideas, pushing them, and that together, along with amazing professionals, comes together to make that satisfaction rate so high. It's one of the best campuses for a reason, and I think part of it is our focus on student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:56]: One of the, I think, mysteries in our profession is whether or not slash how do graduate prep programs communicate with each other about what's important for students to be learning, as well as how is that communication happening with the practitioners in the field? We're gonna be hiring students coming out of these programs. Can you elucidate at all what that communication looks like? Where where are these conversations happening? How is this curricular idea set being kind of amalgamated together with the brightest scholar minds in our field?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:17:24]: Sure. So I think the NASPA Faculty Institute is always one of the places that I start when I begin to think about curriculum and even some specific course ideation. Last year at NASPA, I had a phenomenal conversation with Dr. Candice Moore at Maryland College Park, and we sat and talked about the history of our programs. We talked about the importance of theory. We sat at a round table with some other program coordinators and kinda just spitballed ideas and shared our challenges and our frustrations, but not in a way to, like, oh, what was us? Right? But, like, really to try to generate what do we do? How do we respond? How do we continue pivoting to support our students so that they understand and recognize the relevance in addition to those who are hiring our professionals to understand and recognize. So interestingly, just this week, Dr. Erica Eckert and I got a group of program coordinators together from the state of Ohio, and we had 7 institutions represented on the call. And we talked about curriculum, and we talked about funding, and we talked about marketability and employability. And one of our action items is to get on the call with the vice presidents of student affairs in the region because we can't have the conversation by ourselves.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:18:39]: It is a partnership, and it's an ongoing discussion. And I think the other thing that I'll say is we had a new professionals in transition conference for our students last Friday, and so that's where our students are working with our alumni base to talk about their emergence into the field, preparation with interview practice, mock interviews, and also just like a general conference type sessions as well as some mentoring and networking sessions. So great student run, student led event. It started about 25 years ago. It's taken a lot of different twists and turns, but one of the things that I did when I came on board is I said, I'm gonna find the brightest and best alumni to come to campus, not just for I mean, we we do some Zooming things as well because I think you have to anymore, but I wanted to bring them to campus and have them interact with our students. And so this year, we brought in Dr. Ashley Brown, who is assistant dean of students at Emory University. She's one of our rock star alumni. BG has lots of them.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:19:38]: Right? I think just about any campus you go on, you're gonna find some BG alums. But Dr. Brown has been tasked with basically redesigning her student affairs division and hiring the staff. And one thing that she shared was the importance of hiring folks with master's degrees in student affairs because they understand. They have the identity development lens. They have the power, privilege, and oppression perspectives. They understand the layers of the institutional bureaucracy in ways that other disciplines, while the professionals might be great coming from other disciplines, there's a real cost to getting those professionals up to speed and running forward. And so that was really encouraging for me to hear that as she continues pivoting and bringing up her division, and that's something that I'm hearing from other vice presidents as well, is that importance of the perspective and the depth of what they come with. And so I I really hope the field can compensate them accordingly, because I think that is one of the biggest challenges we're facing as a profession right now as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:42]: Definitely. Equitable pay, and then we've got federal overtime laws and we could be facing a lot of different federal changes coming in the next 4 years. Lots of unknowns with that for sure. I'm also wondering how your program and maybe programs in general are are developing courses or curricula that help address some of the skill gaps that I know as practitioners we talk a lot about. So for example, you know, when I was sitting in dean of student seats, one thing I would always notice is that we don't teach supervision well as a profession at all. It's a skill set that is typically learned as you go, and we don't teach the theory behind supervision or any of the different cultural aspects, things like that. So that'd be one skill gap. And we just had Mike Segawa, a distinguished pillar of the profession on the show a couple weeks ago, and he was talking about a need for grad prep programs to do better about teaching advocacy skills in terms of telling our story as a profession, those types of things.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:31]: So can you talk a little bit about how those might be rising?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:21:34]: Yeah. So I think you just hit my hot button issue, Jill. But telling your story, oh my gosh. It is absolutely essential. If we don't tell our story and demonstrate our relevance of how our campuses are able to exist because of student affairs labor, we are failing. And I know that sounds dramatic, but I actually genuinely believe that. If administrators don't understand the actual numerical value of what we're doing, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify pay equity, pay raises, increased positions. It is a real challenge.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:22:12]: So one thing that I've been thinking a lot about is where does this fall within a curriculum? As states, it was just in Inside Higher Edda about a month ago, how state governments are deciding curriculum for programs. They're really getting involved in some states with what's being offered and what we can do and what we can't do. That has not been the case in Ohio yet, although I'm a little concerned. But anyway, that has not been the case yet. What that does is that takes away our autonomy to really train and prepare folks. And so with kind of that restrained squeezing and that added pressure, I'm acutely aware, and I think about helping skills. Right? Coming from a some sort of a counseling pastoral background myself, a lot of the training that I had was in helping skills, not specifically counseling, but that's a layer as well. And so how do we tell that story to our administrators to justify what we're doing and also to protect ourselves from burnout? I think understanding, as you pointed out, the academic discipline aspects of supervision and the counseling components for helping skills, conflict resolution, not just learning how to do the thing, but the behind the scenes of how to do the thing, I actually think, takes some of the burden off our shoulders when we're doing the good work.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:23:29]: And I tell my students that all the time and they chuckle. But I'm serious. Right? Like, unless we understand that these issues are much larger than this moment that I'm in today with my supervisor or my supervisees, it feels so much more onerous and so much more taxing. And so one thing that we do at BGSU is we have what's called 6890, but all of the alums on the call will know what I'm talking about. And it's a reflective practice class, and it meets every single semester of the program. And within that class, we had the luxury to kind of respond to what we think that group of students needs or what we feel like within our curriculum might be lacking. We're also, this coming semester, gonna have an I'm like, this will be fun to see what happens, but it's a class that's gonna be offered. It's an elective on campus politics.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:24:18]: And how do we navigate all of the things? Right? So, like, advocacy, how do we navigate just even internal bureaucratic components? How do I know to ask certain questions and when to ask certain questions of maybe my supervisor or my supervisees? How to know even when to read between the lines sometimes? I don't know that there's a way we can teach that per se, but I think talking about it, bringing it to the table and bringing in professionals who are doing that every day, I think, is just helpful perspective to have. And when students do practicums, I always tell them, I'm like, ask the tough questions. Ask the questions that you know that you will feel uncomfortable when you're employed by those folks to ask because you're a student. So the power of a student is to gain all the perspective. So ask those questions. And if the supervisor comes back and says, ouch. That's a tough question. Good lesson.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:25:11]: Right? Like, good thing to know to be mindful of those things when you move into the field. But there's so many layers, and I don't think we talk about that until students get into the profession, and then they're inundated with all of these different internal politics, external politics, all of those pieces. It's hard. And I always get phone calls about right now. It's usually mid November, early December from the group that just graduated because they've been in their new position for a minute, not a long time, but a minute. And there's usually something that comes up that feels funky, and they need to talk it out. And I wonder if our profession also might have a space for those new professionals as well. But it's like a clock that alarm goes off and I know, oh, yep.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:25:52]: And it's not everyone, but there's a handful of students. And I become very concerned when it happens so quickly that we're gonna lose those really top leaders because of some of those aspects.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]: I'll be very curious to hear how this class ends up serving the student population. And I don't think you're gonna know until they come out the other side semester or a year after that first position rolls out, or maybe it's something they reflect on as they become more senior level practitioners. But I'm glad to hear that these conversations are happening in the curricular space.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:26:21]: Oh, yeah. Definitely.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:21]: Amy, I'm gonna move us into our theme questions for the season. Again, we're focused on the past, present, and future of student affairs. I've been loving this rich conversation with you around how that is presenting within graduate prep curricula, but we can talk about it both from that perspective and from the holistic nature of student affairs. So our question on the past is, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:26:48]: Oh, you know I love a good history question. So I'm gonna answer this in 2 different ways. I had the privilege to attend the National Endowment for the Humanities series this summer at George Mason University where we unpacked the history of higher education. And so I got to dive in in a lot of really cool ways to some archival documents. And so on the what we should hold on to piece, I would say archives. Understanding and knowing what is in our archives and and also question what's missing, I think is a really important component of our past and we don't wanna lose sight of that. And with everything going virtual and electronic in the early 2000, that has really posed virtual and electronic in the early 2000, that has really posed a real burden on our university libraries, on our archivists, for document management, as well as telling our story. And so to me, that's something that I've been all all fired up about, and I'm, like, ready to get a U Haul van and drive it across the country for my sabbatical, collecting all the things that everybody's got because I think it really is that important. And just a funny thing, I like to find the quirky stories because I think student affairs professionals are fun people, and I don't want us to lose sight of the fun in our job. Like, we like students, and we like to be around students, and we like to see them grow and develop. And so for my homework for this institute that I did, I looked at Melvin Hardy, who a few awards are named after actually within both NASPA and ACPA, I think. And so there's some letters that she wrote as an undergraduate student at Northern Iowa. The first one started talking about macaroni and cheese in the dining hall and how it was great. So she's not going hungry.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:28:28]: Don't worry, mom and dad. All is well. And and that was written in the early thirties, kind of coming out of the depression. And there was a lot of anxiety, and there was a lot of concern about just taking care of basic needs. And so throughout Melvene's letters that she wrote home, she was really homesick. But one of the comments that she made was, I have all of my basic needs cared for. I just don't have you talking about her parents. And I think that is so important for us to remember about why we do the work that we do and that her moving through those different stages and those processes, right, that we actually have record of, right, that she shared with the student affairs archives here at Bowling Green State to demonstrate the challenges and the struggles of a student.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:29:13]: And what's going on outside externally, right, was so much bigger. And she recognized the privilege that she had in being able to go and pursue a college degree. And it was still hard. It was still challenging to be a woman on a campus that was a normal school, right, that prioritize education, but still, it's hard. And then she went on to become a rock star pillar of our profession, and one of her students wrote of her, I think it was, the pillar of the profession honorary notes that were written. And it said, you know, no one better than Dr. Hardy with her go go boots and her smile. Right? And so I again, it's cheesy, but she wore go go boots, you know, small in stature, but big in personality. And I think we sometimes forget that that there are pillars of our profession all around us doing really important work, and I don't know that we amplify that enough.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:30:06]: I always tell my students that when students send you a thank you note, even if it's in an email, print it off and put it in a folder somewhere because that will bring you joy, and that joy will help sustain you. And if you don't need the joy that day, you're gonna need it another day, so put it in the bank. Right? Deposit it for later. And I just think my research on Dr. Hardy, there's been several articles written about her and and whatnot, but I had never read about the mac and cheese or the go go boots. And I think those are the pieces that I do think we should as cheesy as it sounds, hot mac and cheese, pun intended, as cheesy as it sounds, I don't want us to lose sight of that within our history. That all of these folks were people. They were students at one time who had their own challenges and celebrations and achievements, and they chose to do this work because it matters. And so as as administration and as governments, you know, make decisions about our profession, it really is up to us to identify the meaning behind what we do.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:31:06]: And yes, we need theory, and yes, we need empirical research to demonstrate the whys. But I think without the actual historical components that tell our stories of who we are and why we're doing the work, what's the point? And I don't want us to lose the point of that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:21]: Moving to the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:31:25]: Oh, man. We've got some of the best students coming into our programs. They are so fired up about supporting students. And I'll be honest, they understand in a very different way, I think, because of moving through COVID, all the different layers that are associated with student support that I can't even begin to think about. So, yes, there's research on social the impact of social media. Yes. There's research on artificial intelligence. But but our students today get it on a real level.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:31:54]: And to me, I think they're going to be pushing and challenging us to do better with some of those pieces and to to figure out some new ways to support those students because we know there's a lot of unknowns within that, but our students get it. My master students come up with some things sometimes that I'm like, I never even thought of that. And to me, that's exciting. And I know that may not be something new, but I guess that's why I do what I do. Right? I kind of like our students. They're kind of awesome. I would say that's something that's going really well is that they're really in touch and they care deeply about our undergrad students, and they've got some really cool ideas of ways to support them in ways that we've never done it before.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:33]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing to thrive towards our future?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:32:38]: I think telling our story. I think we start there. And I think some practical aspects getting out of our own way sometimes. So some of the things that we've held on to for so long because that's the way you do it. That's like the one thing that sticks in my crawls so so bad is, well, it's always been done that way. And that is the wrong way to think about the future. I wasn't here when it was done that way 30 years ago. My students certainly weren't here.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:33:05]: So how is it relevant? How is what we're doing actually relevant? And I think while that might be hard to answer, we cannot continue reifying certain oppressive behaviors and structures just for the sake of it. And so that's something that I've really done at Bowling Green State is ask a lot of hard questions of my colleagues and hard questions of my dean and our provost to say, but why? And I actually see some positive movement on those. You know, when I when I really sit and I challenge those notions, they've been very responsive to that. But I think those grad programs that aren't able to ask and look in the mirror is a big deal, and I will add that I am prioritizing the residential on campus program. I think that is a really important part of our development that we can't get with an asynchronous approach.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:53]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:59]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. The 2025 NASPA symposium on military connected students is coming up February 18th to February 20th in Las Vegas, Nevada. The 2025 NASPA symposium on military connected students is the association's premier event designed for student affairs practitioners supporting military connected students. The symposium is your exclusive opportunity to share evidence based practices from your campus or organization. You can learn from leading researchers in the field and engage with other professionals committed to supporting military connected students. This is a 3 day symposium featuring keynotes, sessions, research policy, and best practice presentations, as well as workshop style sessions to help campus professionals develop or enhance their programming and services for military connected students. While you're at this conference, you'll have a great opportunity to be able to connect with other colleagues, participate in engaging sessions, and learn from dynamic plenary sessions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:02]: Early registration deadline ends on December 16th with the regular registration deadline going from December 17th to January 15th. You can find out more on the NASPO website. TPE virtual placement is coming up March 3rd through 7th with registration opening up on December 20th. At the virtual placement event, TPE is committed to fostering meaningful interview connections and supporting growth within student affairs. Whether you are an employer seeking the right candidate or a job seeker eager to make a lasting impact or looking for a job, this event is designed to help you navigate the dynamic landscape of opportunities and possibilities. So who is this virtual placement for? Well, it's for graduate and undergraduate students who are seeking full time entry level employment after graduation, early career professionals who are looking for lateral opportunities or opportunities for advancement into mid level roles, or mid level professionals who are looking for lateral opportunities or advancement into upper mid level positions or finally mid level professionals looking for leadership opportunities at the director or unit leader level positions. If you would fall into any of those categories, I highly encourage you to register for this dynamic event. Again, the event is March 3rd through 7th, and registration opens on December 20th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:28]: You can find out more at the placement exchange dot org. Finally, today, I'll talk about the 2025 NASPA certificate in student affairs, law and policy. This is happening June 23rd to 27th in Clearwater Beach, Tampa, Florida. The NASPA certificate in student affairs, law and policy offers the only certificate in the important area of law and policy tailored specifically for student affairs educators. This is a 23 hour intensive residential certificate that provides an opportunity for in-depth study to enhance student affairs professionals knowledge and understanding of law and policy. This is the only program of its type and the only certificate specifically recommended for members of NASPA and other student affairs focused associations. As mentioned, the certificate will take place June 23rd through 27th, and it is an amazing educational opportunity with certificate topics in public law, private law, law and the legal system, and special issues in student affairs law and policy. You do have to apply to be a part of this professional development opportunity and the application must be submitted by March 1, 2025 to be considered.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:41]: If you are selected, you will receive more information on how to register for the 2025 NASPA certificate program in student affairs, law and policy. Highly encourage you to check this out for yourself. All you have to do is go to the NASPA website and go under events to find out more. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:55]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:23]: Chris, thank you so much for always keeping us informed about what's going on in and around NASPA. You always come up with such great information for us. And, Amy, we are now back with our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:39:39]: I'm ready. Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:41]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:39:46]: Oh my gosh. I have 90 seconds. I'm thinking something Disney. I don't know.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:51]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:39:54]: A choo choo train.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:55]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:39:58]: Dr. Mary Howard Hamilton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:59]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:02]: I like all of them. I don't know.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:03]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:06]: What We Do in the Shadows.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:07]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:11]: Crime Junkie.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:12]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:16]: I don't know. I just wanna say hi to all my students at BGSU. My rock star colleagues, Dr. Ellen Broido and Dr. Ali Watts. Oh, and my dog, boss Treeway McScruff. He's my sidekick and coauthor to everything.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:27]: Amy, it's been so lovely to learn from you today. I know I've learned a lot. And if any of our listeners would like to have a connection with you after the show airs, how can they find you?

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:36]: You can send me an email at [email protected].

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:41]: Amy, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Amy E. French [00:40:44]: Cool. Thank you so much, Jill.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:50]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:25]: This episode was produced and by Dr. Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field podcast, Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Ainsley Carry, Vice President for Students at the University of British Columbia (UBC), to discuss the current state and future directions of student affairs. Their conversation ranges from the importance of listening to students and adapting to cultural nuances, to the evolving role of AI and mental health support on campus. 

The Evolution of Student Affairs A Shift from Traditional Theories

Dr. Ainsley Carry highlights that student affairs have undergone significant changes over the years. Historically, the field focused on career placement and leadership development, often driven by traditional theories like those proposed by Tinto and Chickering. However, Dr. Carry critiques these models for being outdated and restrictive. He argues for the necessity of freeing student affairs from these old theoretical constraints to better align with the evolving needs and cultures of modern students.

From Leadership to Inclusivity

The emphasis has gradually shifted from leadership, with its positional nature, to inclusivity in participation. Today's student affairs professionals recognize the importance of engaging students inside and outside the classroom, acknowledging the challenges in measuring qualitative learning experiences. According to Dr. Carry, the current trends in student affairs reflect a return to career exploration and identity development, rather than mere placement, recognizing the global nature of modern careers and the importance of early engagement through internships.

Listening and Feedback Sessions

Dr. Carry has introduced listening sessions at UBC, conducting over 100 sessions with thousands of student participants. These sessions are crucial for gathering feedback, understanding what works well, and identifying areas needing improvement. The methodology is simple but effective: asking students what’s working, what isn’t, what should be maintained, what should be stopped, and what other questions they have. This process ensures that student voices are heard and integrated into strategic planning.

Enhancing Mental Health Support Reducing Wait Times and Expanding Access

Mental health support on campuses has seen substantial improvements, as Dr. Carry points out. Universities have reduced wait times for counseling and expanded access through both in-person and virtual formats. Regulatory changes now allow cross-state counseling, and a greater number of individuals are pursuing careers in counseling, contributing to a robust pool of professionals ready to support students.

Destigmatizing Mental Health Discussions

Efforts are ongoing to destigmatize mental health discussions. Dr. Carry emphasizes that addressing mental health proactively is central to supporting students’ overall well-being. Institutions are aiming to normalize these conversations, making it easier for students to seek help without fear of judgment.

The Promise of AI in Higher Education 24/7 Student Services

One of the most exciting topics Dr. Carry discusses is the potential of artificial intelligence (AI) in student affairs. Just as calculators once transformed education, AI has the potential to offer 24/7 student services. This could address the common mismatch between student needs and the traditional service hours of university offices. AI can provide continuous support for academic, career, and mental health advising, particularly during after-hours when human staff are unavailable.

Supplementing Human Interactions

It’s crucial to note that Dr. Carry views AI as a supplement, not a replacement, for human interactions. While AI can enhance the availability and efficiency of student services, the human touch remains irreplaceable. AI can manage routine inquiries and provide timely responses, leaving more complex and sensitive issues for human professionals to handle.

Navigating Cultural Differences in Higher Education Adapting to the Canadian Context

Moving to Canada in 2019, Dr. Carry had to adapt to the Canadian higher education landscape, which differs significantly from the U.S. context. One prominent difference he observed was the less prominent role of Greek life and a lower incidence of binge drinking. Moreover, Canadian universities have a more balanced approach to college sports, and there’s a reduced concern about gun violence on campuses.

Emphasizing Health and Well-Being

In Canada, student health and well-being is a primary focus, especially considering the varying healthcare needs of international students. Dr. Carry underscores the importance of making career development resources accessible right from the first year and tackling affordability issues exacerbated by fluctuating international currencies.

A Future-Forward Approach to Student Affairs

Dr. Ainsley Carry's insights demonstrate a future-forward approach to student affairs, emphasizing the need to evolve with changing student demographics and cultural contexts. By integrating student feedback, enhancing mental health support, and leveraging AI, institutions can create more inclusive and supportive environments. As we look to the future, it’s clear that student affairs must continue to innovate and adapt, always keeping the well-being and success of students at its core.

As always, NASPA's SA Voices From the Field thanks its listeners for their support and encourages feedback, topic suggestions, and reviews to continue delivering content that matters.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, we continue our journey with International Student Affairs Professionals by welcoming doctor Ainsley Carry. Ainsley joined the University of British Columbia on April 1st, 2019 as the vice president, students. Ainsley has responsibility for a portfolio that includes student health and wellness, center for student involvement and careers, center for community engaged learning, student housing and community services, and athletics and recreation. He also oversees strategic priorities, such as the university's well-being framework, sexual violence prevention and response office, and anti racism initiatives. The vice president's student's portfolio is responsible for a $300,000,000 budget, including more than 25 100 full time employees and 1500 student employees.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:05]: Ainsley's responsibilities encompass undergraduate and graduate students on the Vancouver and Okanagan campuses. Ainsley joins UBC from the University of Southern California where he served as VPSA from 2013 to 2019, and before that, Auburn University where he served in the same position from 2009 through 2013. Ainsley held a faculty role in the Rossier School of Education at USC and Auburn University's College of Ed. His higher education career includes stints at Temple University, the University of Arkansas, and Southern Methodist University. He's a 3 time graduate of the University of Florida where he earned his bachelor's degree, master's in counseling, and doctorate in higher education administration. Ainsley also earned an MBA from Auburn in 2011 and a master of studies of law from the University of Southern California in 20 19. Ainsley brings over 30 years of experience in college administration. He led several institutional initiatives to combat sexual violence on campus, prevent hazing, and respond to campus protests.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:55]: Yet Ainsley is most proud of his work to enhance the student experience. Ainsley wrote, throughout my career, I've come to realize that our greatest responsibility as academic leaders includes the health, wellness, and safety of all students. Issues of sexual misconduct, mental health, overconsumption of alcohol, and equity are public health matters. When any of these experiences negatively impact any student, their their learning experience is severely compromised. We must tackle these challenges with the same rigor to approach public health issues. Evidence based and prevention focused, there's no reason why UBC cannot be the healthiest campus in Canada. Ainslie begins his journey at UBC with a mission to interact with students daily and build academic partnerships outside the classroom. Ainsley, welcome to SA Voices from the Field.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:02:35]: Jill. It's so good to be here today, and thank you for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:38]: I always love getting the opportunity to talk to other student affairs professionals who are global. And you have been both domestically state side and are currently global. So I'm really looking forward to digging into your wealth of experience on the past, present, and future of student affairs, especially bringing in that Canadian perspective. You're currently sitting in the VPSA seat at UBC, University of British Columbia. And the first thing we always love to do on our show is get to know you by asking you, how did you land in your current seat?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:03:06]: So I'll go a little bit back. I went to school at the University of Florida in Gainesville, and then I went there to play football. So I was so much in love with the sport that that was my motivation for going to university. But while I was there, I fell in love with learning things. I realized that if I applied the skills that I learned in my sport and applied those skills in the classroom that I could learn anything that I wanted to. So slowly, my 3rd 4th year, my attention drifted completely academics. And while I was focused on academics, I had the chance to work with other students who were still trying to figure out their learning strategies. And that intrigued me so much that when I graduated from the university, I first took my initial passion going to corporate America and I went into retail and I hated that experience.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:03:50]: So it catapulted me back to the University of Florida. And I said, you know what? I enjoyed, I enjoyed helping people learn and helping them make meaning out of life. What degree program is that? And someone guided me into college administration, higher ed counseling with a student affairs focus. At the time, I didn't know it. I didn't understand it, but I knew the people that were most influential in my life were those Ired administrators, the deans of students, the vice presidents for student affairs. I remember Tom Hill was the dean of students at the University of Florida when I was a student, and then he's been this incredible pillar of the profession since then. So I earned my masters in higher administration and my doctorate in college administration and worked around the US at a number of different universities. Not gonna recall maybe about 10 years ago sitting now with my family and trying to imagine what's part of that future.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:04:41]: We wanted to have an international experience, we wanted to live somewhere else in the world, drive on the other side of the road, eat different food, develop completely different taste buds and perhaps even learn a foreign language. We wanted our daughter to be a global citizen and what would that look like? So we imagine all these countries we might live in Singapore, Australia, China, Hong Kong, like where the places in the world we wanted to go and if that opportunity came up, we would say yes. So I received a call from a recruiter at the University of British Columbia. So I thought, woah, here's a great school in Great Britain, of course. Well, when I went and did my homework on it, I realized British Columbia is not in Great Britain. It's not even in Columbia. It's in Vancouver, Canada. So I made the trip up here, took the interview, fell in love with the environment, the people, and the portfolio is amazing.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:05:33]: And I have a pleasure of working with an incredible group of student affairs professionals. So my journey was about saying yes to opportunities. That's how I ended up here at UBC beginning in 2019.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:44]: You remind me a lot of my friend, doctor Rafael Alex Moffett. He and I met when he was over in China and I succeeded him in a role over overseas in China. And, I think all of us who have taken that expat leap have that similar sense of adventure within us, but that global citizenship value as definitely something core to our being and and figuring out in the world. But I'm gonna say, Ainsley, you do not wanna drive on the other side of the road. I've been in the UK for about 6, 7 months now. I did drive for the first time. I thought it might die the entire time, So maybe don't put that one on the bucket list.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:06:16]: Gotcha. Good to know. Thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:18]: But you've been up at UBC for about 5 years now, riding it out through the pandemic in a different cultural context than the one that you come from, especially after having led in the US for so long. Can you talk to us about the first things that struck you as different in the Canadian higher ed context from maybe what you were expecting given your US training?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:06:37]: Yeah. And I'll go pre pandemic. Prior to coming to UBC in Vancouver, I served as a vice president for students at Auburn University in Alabama. Enjoyed that Southeastern Conference. I'm an SCC graduate, so it was great to be in the conference and and be part of the energy and the atmosphere working and living in the SCC. And then after Auburn, I became the vice president for students at the University of Southern California at Los Angeles. Also, a major institution, major college athletics, big Greek life, donors and alumni support was incredible there. Just really great solid institutions.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:07:11]: I came over the border north to Canada in 2019 and began my service as vice president for students here. So this was my 3rd vice presidency and I committed myself to arriving here and completely embedding myself in the new culture, listening, not making assumptions, suspending judgment about anything and really become a student of the environment. Like, let me learn it before I make any preconceived notions or make the mistake of copying what I learned somewhere else and attempting to paste it in a brand new culture. So I listened for my entire 1st year and learned so much and just have a great appreciation for the slight nuances and higher ed administration in Canada. Here's what popped out of me within my 1st year. At the end of the 1st year, some things were significantly different in my role as vice president. One, for example, I spent a lot of time at my prior institutions concerned with regard to issues of overconsumption of a binge drinking culture. So when there was Greek life and college athletics and big game days, alcohol was a part of the culture, and not a casual drinking way, in a binge drinking way.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:08:21]: So my Saturday nights or Sunday mornings were consumed with responding to what happened the football game before. And sometimes that was an incredible drain on the student affairs team because we were responding at night to issues related to overconsumption of alcohol and students being transported to the hospitals. That had not been my experience in Canada. Canada is much more casual drinkers, so they consume alcohol, some may over consume, but the notion of drinking an entire bottle of vodka and 30 minutes is not an activity here that I've seen in my experience. So that completely changed the rhythm of my life, what the weekends meant. Greek life is a different culture here. It's not as prominent. It does not rule over decision making at the university in ways that it had at some schools in the states.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:09:09]: So completely different culture. I didn't have to be concerned as much about issues of gun violence on campus. In previous institutions, I recall legislation work making its way through the state legislature about whether students should be able to carry firearms on campus. That is not a question that's coming up here in any Canadian context. The obsession with college sports, there's a healthy balance of the need for our teams to be successful and win, but there's a greater balance on those students being students before their athletes. And there is this overwhelming obsession with college football, college hockey, you name it. So it's an incredibly balanced environment with regard to those things. The last thing that I noticed, the diversity here was different.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:09:58]: The diversity at UBC is a global diversity. Students coming from countries all over the world make up our international student population. In the US, it was largely black or Hispanic or different US cultures with a spattering of international students here. It's almost a complete blend of all of those cultures. So those were some of the things that I noticed that were distinctively different in Canada, and I can imagine different places in in the world may have some things that are different. What some of the things that were the same concerns about sexual violence also happening here, concerns related to mental health and students also happening here and how the administration supports that, issues of affordability, especially around housing and food, they are present here. So we have some of the same concerns, but many of the things that would consume the time of the vice president, I found to be less consuming here, quite less consuming.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:55]: And then looking at that alternatively, then what do you focus on most in the Canadian context as a bpsa

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:11:02]: student health and well-being is number 1. My 1st year, I spent that entire year hosting student listening sessions, small groups of 25 students. Sometimes I'd buy pizza for 400 students, and they'd show up in an auditorium and we would just talk. And I'd ask those students 5 questions. What's working? It's not working. What must we continue doing? What must we stop doing? And what question am I not asking you that you wish you I would ask and you wanted to provide an answer? And we did about 20 listening sessions with over 500 students in that 1st year. And the primary issues that came up navigating student healthcare was number 1. Our students were coming from all over the world and their healthcare systems were different than the healthcare that they were trying to navigate for the first time as an 18 or 19 year old 1st year student.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:11:53]: They were away from their parents and they were making their own health related decisions and we didn't make it easy for them. We had multiple health center operations and students had to identify which one to go to in between classes and then they would find themselves at the wrong one and then they had to take another day to make another appointment to go to the other wrong place and by that time their health condition may have worsened or it may have resolved itself but we also found students who just said you know what it's too complicated I'll just wait till I go home And as you can imagine with health related issues, they don't get better as time goes along. You actually have to get them treated or get them responded to. So the first thing we worked on was fixing or making it easier for students to navigate health care. The second major concern that students raise were issues related to career development. So many students arrived on campus, had a great first and second year, then kinda woke up that 3rd year and realized, I wish I knew about this internship in my 1st year. I I would have taken advantage of it and I would be more prepared. Again, we didn't make it easy for students to navigate their career journey.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:12:59]: We didn't make it clear. We didn't make it structurally unavoidable. So we had to find ways to make a smarter process for that. And then the 3rd major issue here are issues of affordability. Now that we've navigated health care, we are building out our career development process. The thing that has bubbled to the top are issues related to affordability. We have a large international student community with the Canadian dollar is different than the dollar from their international country. We have geopolitical conflicts going on impacting individuals' ability to continue to study, natural disasters happening, so issues of affordability, housing and food are prominent on the list.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:13:39]: At UBC, it's not unique to Canada, this is a global impact on student learning right now and it's really impacting their mental health and impacting everything else. So all of those things combined, student health and well-being is our number one priority.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:56]: I wanna reflect back on those 5 questions you've been asking the students in the listening sessions. I feel those are really great open ended questions that really anyone in student affairs, regardless of the level that you're working at in an organization, can use to begin some light assessment on how your your services are functioning or how your programs and impacts are really kind of setting with the students. So can you please repeat those for

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:14:20]: us? Sure. So I begin with letting the students know today, here are 5 questions that I will pose to the group. You don't have to answer all of them. You may choose 1. You may choose 2, but don't feel compelled to answer all of them. What I wanna know and this is while students are enjoying their pizza and getting ready for the session. What I wanna know is, number 1, what's working for you? What what are we doing a great job of? And you wanna say, dear university, thank you for putting this in place. We need that feedback.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:14:53]: Number 2, what's not working? Kind of the opposite side of the first question. There's something that we've put in place that we think is a good thing, but it's not working for students. Or there may be a policy in place that's completely outdated, was designed in the eighties or the nineties, and it no longer makes sense to the student population who's here right now, so what's not working? Number 3, what is the one thing you want us to maintain? Sometimes students hear concerns about something that's gonna discontinue or we're gonna stop doing something. What's the one thing that we have to keep in place that students say this event, this tradition, this ceremony, this activity is so precious to us. We really want this to stay in place. The 4th question is if you had to pick one thing that you want us to absolutely stop doing this, it's related to the first two questions, but what's the thing that you want us to stop doing? And then the 5th question is, what's the question you wish the administration would ask you, but we have not asked you and you wanted to tell us about? So we outline those 5 questions, we keep them on poster boards nearby and I say, pick 1 or answer all 5. It's up to you. But don't feel compelled to answer all 5.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:16:06]: Typically, students will stand up and say, let me tell you something that's working. And then they say, to be fair, let me also examine with you. Here's something I'm really bothered by. In a few cases, students have stood up and said, here's a question that I wish the administration would ask us more because I wanna hear the answer. And most recently, that question came up about how are we supporting students who are single parents, category that we had not wrapped our minds on. We thought about families, but we hadn't wrapped our mind around the complications of single parents. So we have done 100 of listening sessions now over the past 5 plus years that I've been here. 1,000 of students have participated and we have a note taker there that collects notes.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:16:54]: And then we summarize all of those notes, produce a report and then share it with the audience that came. We do our best to answer each of the questions and this feedback session is what has helped us produce our strategic plans.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:07]: This is a great present practice. I think a lot of people should be incorporating the student voice into their student affairs strategic plans a little more. But I'm also wondering how you navigate when you know that there's something that a student needs, but your teams simply don't have the bandwidth, the resources, or the foci to navigate that particular need.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:17:24]: Yeah. That's a good question. So we make it clear at the beginning that this is a listening session. So I'm not always there to solve the particular issue immediate. So sometimes students bring to the stage a very personal issue with regard to men their own mental health issues of sexual violence that I often ask to pause. And we do have counselors that are there with us. I asked the student if we could take this personal issue offline so that we can help them solve their issue directly. And we'll take that student's name, that student's phone number, sometimes we'll have a counselor who continues the conversation with them, but we make sure that we help address that individual student and their need.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:18:06]: As you said, sometimes there's an issue that we cannot resolve, whether it's a geopolitical conflict, students have come to these listening sessions and said, we want the university to demand a ceasefire right now, why won't you demand a ceasefire? And we find ourselves in this kind of, well, that's not within our capacity to resolve that right now, but we understand your concern. Let us understand at the depth of that concern, what is the thing that we can do on campus? So sometimes we play it out with students in the audience. What's the alternative for us to address geopolitical concerns among our campus community. But for the most part, we have found students with an individual concern is real tricky when we pull them aside and have a 1 on 1 with them, we can help them resolve that problem. If it's within the scope of the universe, it might be outside of the portfolio of the vice president for students. But our work is to advocate for students wherever it's happening. So if it's in an academic function, we'll work with the dean or the associate dean of that academic function. If it's in housing or dining or in the community, we will help the students navigate it.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:19:11]: So thus far, we've been mostly in the ballpark of issues that we can respond to as a university, not just VP for students, but as a university.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:22]: When I think about transitioning into a new cultural context, which I've done a couple of times in the last couple of years myself, I always think about those things that caught me off guard that I didn't realize would be a cultural norm or cultural assumption or something I was carrying with me from my past that maybe I stepped in something else in the context that I'm currently living in. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you've learned to navigate cultural difference, especially in the Canadian context where I think a lot of Americans tend to operate with a sense of hubris that the cultures are more aligned than they really are. So how have you figured out what to take with you from your American core and what to approach with that most humility and and kind of fix it when you have stepped in it?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:20:03]: That's such a great question. I think that is the most important transition as anyone considering, global opportunities or working outside of the United States. It's so easily to be immersed in the American way of doing things. And it's so easy to assume that this is the correct way. I spent my 1st year suspending all judgment, allowing my values to be challenged, but focused on asking myself the question, focused on being a critical thinker of the experience and just absorbing this experience. And it wasn't a foreign idea to me. I'd worked at Temple University in Philadelphia, the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, Auburn University in Alabama, the University of Southern California. And even in those environments, they were all US environments, but they were completely different environments.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:20:54]: An attempt to copy and paste anything from Auburn to USC was not gonna work. So I learned early in my US transitions from institution to institution to pay attention to the unique culture of the place that I'm sitting right now, like, be completely present. I think the biggest mistake we can make is to copy and paste or the worst phrase that I typically hear is when I was at Auburn, we used to do like that does not work. So completely embed yourself in your current institution and take the time. Sometimes it's a year to completely learn the culture and values and why things are done a certain way. In the end, you may disagree, you may continue to disagree with the path or it may confirm that this is the right path. And now I understand why we use this term or participate in this practice. You might disagree with it in the end, but it's hard to change when the community that you're trying to change does not believe you understand their cultural practice.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:21:59]: We have to build some social capital before we can jump directly into change management. And I think that's true moving from Colorado to California to Texas as it is moving from Los Angeles to Vancouver, British Columbia. So immerse yourself in the culture, understand what's going on, feel free to disagree in the end, but you can't disagree until you understand. So it was being a critical practitioner that has been most helpful for me. Give you an example of one thing that came up. I am in my US mindset, very linear in thinking about, let's solve this problem. So we'll come to the table. There's a student issue.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:22:40]: We're grappling with something, but everyone is talking around the something. So I'm sitting there listening, trying to figure out what problem are we trying to solve? What is the issue here? And after 30 or so minutes into the meeting, I grow so impatient that I just say, wait a minute. What are we talking about? What is the issue? I don't understand. What are we trying to solve? And then we kinda continue to have this talk around it ness, and it's sometimes an issue of culture or race. We have a large indigenous population and indigenous commitment here, issues of black student issues, religious and cultural issues. We have this merry-go-round for about an hour that used to frustrate me. And I realized after my 1st year that I needed to slow down. I was the one that was moving too fast.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:23:28]: Part of the process was the group coming to terms with finding the right language to get there. So my impatience with problem solving was my error, not the error of the group that I was sitting around trying to navigate this with. So in my 1st year, I realized that sometimes it's gonna take 3 meetings to get to the heart of the issue, and I needed to be patient with that because the journey was part of the problem solving, not pinpointing the issue and tackling it immediately. So that was one of the nuances that I found here. There's a lot of talk around an issue before we get to the meat of the issue. And that's been a valuable learning lesson for me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:09]: Processing is part of the process. Yes. When you think about your space that you're currently occupying and the staff that you are responsible for leading and ultimately developing, what are you doing differently in the Canadian context than you might have done in the US context?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:24:24]: So one of the things that I have not been able to drag across the border, some of the higher ed language that we had been developing in the US since the 19 fifties sixties seventies as the profession was being born, up student outcomes, strategic planning, learning and assessment and evaluation and experiential learning, high impact practices, all of the things that we've gone to conferences to learn and adopt. Some of those things are unique, uniquely US. And And when you come across the border, some of that language changes. Those activities are still important, but the language of those activities have changed. So you won't find, at least at my institution, you won't find a lot of individuals who are classically trained in higher aid administration, meaning earning a master's degree in student affairs or a doctorate in college administration. They are well educated, great experiences. But I have degrees from chemistry and physics and math and business. And they're all over the place.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:25:23]: Very few people are student affairs practitioners as we know them in the U. S. So some of the language translation is different. And it's been helpful for me to learn this language. What's important here? Because after we talk it out for a while, then people will say, oh, I know what you mean. This is what you're trying to say. So it's been super helpful learning a new language, but it requires listening. It really requires listening and taking our time to get there.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:25:52]: I have found that our culture as an administration has been super receptive to thinking outside the box, creating new ideas because they're not boxed into Tinto's theory or Chickering's vectors or any of the other theories that we learned as young student affairs professionals that later on, when we go into another environment, those theories sometimes have boxed us in because those theories are largely out of date in many contexts. They have not evolved to the new cultures of our students. So being able to free myself from the boxes of student learning theories that we had adopted a long time ago in a different context has been helpful for me to have that learning experience because we're talking about the same things and the same outcomes. But I had to learn how to how to drop that language in those boxes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:41]: Well, Aynle, I'm gonna transition us over to our theme based questions for the season. And so I have, one question for you on the past, one on the present, and one in the future of student affairs. So starting in the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:26:59]: So our higher ed profession, I recall when it was very focused on career placement, career development. As time has moved on, I remember when we introduced student leadership development, where leadership was important and then we started to step away from leadership development because it was so positional and that was a distraction to those who said, I'm not a leader, but I wanna participate. We weren't teaching followership anymore. We weren't teaching good practice of being good teammates, working together. So we moved away from leadership development. And then we kind of completely focused on student learning, what are students learning inside and outside the classroom. And that had an incredible amount of value as we started to see both this learning happening in both places. But we remain challenged with how do we measure learning that's happening outside the classroom because so much of it is qualitative, not quantitative.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:27:55]: Student experiences were just as important. I do think we're seeing a revisit, a new world of student career development that is different than when we attended school in the eighties nineties. It was a very placement feel where employers came to campus to interview you. Now we're in a world where students are global employees. Students can work all over the world. Platforms like Zoom and artificial intelligence are platforms that we should be thinking about as students to help students make their career decisions and pursue their career journey. So now I think it's not just about career placement and career development, but it's about career exploration and identifying self and seeing where you wanna work as part of a global society. And we know students will graduate from universities and within their first five or so years, they will have 5 or 6 different jobs and employment opportunities.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:28:55]: Unlike the prior generation that we went into a single industry, and we know students are much more purpose driven about where they work today. They want to be a part of a company that they feel good about, that they feel this company is doing something better for the world. How do we help students explore that journey? Now I have students who arrive at the university who are looking for an internship immediately. They want that 1st summer to begin their career journey. Employers are using the internship as interview number 1. So the student who has spent 4 years with a particular company, number 1, knows more about that company than any place else, and that employer knows about them. So the career offer is easier at that point, but we have to start that journey earlier as a part of a journey and not make it a super stressful situation for a student who can't find that opportunity. But I think career exploration and identity development is coming back.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:29:57]: That's a practice that I think was in the past in a very career placement like way. And now we are entering this career journey phase.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:07]: Moving towards the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:30:12]: I think we're doing a much better job around issues of mental health and how we're supporting students navigate mental health care on campus. I remember the calls and the cries from more counselors on campus. The wait time was too long. Sometimes students were waiting 6 weeks for a counseling appointment, 8 weeks for a counseling appointment. I believe our counseling systems have become much more smarter. We now know how to triage critical situations, get the student with the urgent care needs in first. We have expanded our counseling portfolios to have not only counselors on the ground, but COVID taught us that we could also deliver mental health counseling via phone, via video, via Zoom. So now we have virtual platforms for counseling and companies that provide that virtual counselling.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:31:05]: I recall in the states, we were limited by which state we were in and our ability to use a counselor in another state, that counselor needed to be licensed in a particular state. Now, many of those licensure agreements are giving way to allow students at your university to have access to mental health counseling, whether it's in state or out of state. And since then, so many more young adults have graduated from universities, gone into counseling. So now we have a much more robust pool of mental health counselors available. I believe because of the demand, we're seeing more individuals go into counseling. So I am proud today that we at University of British Columbia have five paths that a student can receive mental health counseling support. That's on the ground, virtually via Zoom, by phone, we have embedded counselors into academic units and we have embedded counselors into residence halls. So right now, the wait time, if a student is willing to use the full menu is 72 hours, which is and a student who has urgent needs can be seen immediately.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:32:15]: So the thing that I'm proudest of is the work that universities have done to create a more robust student health and well-being infrastructure, specifically around mental health counseling services. And the stigma of it is being released. We can talk openly about everyone having a relationship with a counselor as a support mechanism, something that all students need, and it's not frowned upon as as it had been in the past. So I am excited about the world that we're living in. I have a 17 year old daughter that's getting ready to go to a university, and I like the place that we are right now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:52]: And looking outwards, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing right now to thrive towards our future?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:32:58]: I think one of the most obvious answers around our future conversation is how do we leverage artificial intelligence? There's a robust conversation going on in the classroom about the implications of AI. Much of it is around how students might use AI to gain an advantage in the classroom. There's concern about AI being used as a tool to cheat on exams. I I think the academics will resolve that and pedagogy will adjust in order to it's like when the calculator came on, Bill. People were concerned, oh, students aren't gonna do math in their head anymore. Well, we realized that the calculator can be a teaching tool, an instructional tool. So how might we use AI as an instructional tool? But I think there's a goal of mine in artificial intelligence as we think about student affairs and student services. And the reason why I'm so excited about it, many of our operations operate on a 9 am to 5 pm schedule.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:33:55]: Okay. It might be 8 am to 5 pm, but that's not the student rhythm. Students usually aren't up at 8 am looking for mental health counseling services or academic advising or career advising that may start at noon, but it's definitely not over at 5 pm. So that student who it's midnight, they're concerned about something, they wanna talk to someone, they wanna go through a resume, they have a job interview the next day or a podcast interview, and they wanna think through some questions. What if we had a suite of services that were available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? And and it didn't have before we used to try to imagine how do we keep student affairs personnel available for hours beyond 5 PM. And now I think there's a world that we can use artificial intelligence to be more available around the clock. Not that it would replace humans, but it would be a supplement to the work that we're doing on the ground. And then after 5 or 6 PM, we switch into a more virtual AI mode that still helps students answer critical questions.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:35:00]: I remember we were trying to create avatars that would answer questions and engage with students. And the technology was clumsy back then. And this is 5 to 7 years ago when we were experimenting with this at USC. I think artificial intelligence right now can allow us to create much more smarter interfaces with students And just imagine the possibilities. I'm talking academic advising, career advising, advice on mental health counseling, advice on interview preparation, everything that we do in student affairs, I think there's an AI opportunity that we should explore and vigorously vigorously consider. I don't think it will replace humans, but I think it will be a great supplement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:44]: And if you're listening to essay voices for the first time today, I strongly encourage you to go back a couple of weeks ago and listen to the episode we did with doctor Daniel Weisglass all about AI in higher education. It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:00]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. As we approach the end of the year, there's no better time to reflect on your department's achievements and plan for continuous improvement. A program review collaborative review can provide the external insights needed to refine your strategies and strengthen your programs. The PRC is a collaborative effort between NASPA, the Association of Colleges and Universities Housing Officers International, or ACUO AI, the Association of College Unions International, ACUI, and NRSA, Leaders in Collegiate Recreation. This partnership is designed to provide best practice frameworks and expert guidance for departmental evaluations. If this kind of evaluation sounds like something that would really help your office, I encourage you to check it out for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:52]: You can go to program review collaborative dot org to find out more. The new issue of the Journal of College and Character has just released. Volume 25 issue 4 just came out. And in this journal, you're gonna be finding a ton of different articles. Articles such as from Kent State to Black Lives Matter, student affairs relationship with campus activism to developing character through critical reflection or fraternities and sororities as civil society organizations, past roles, present actions and future possibilities. All of these articles and more can be found on the NASPA website. When you go to the NASPA website, they're easy to find. All you do is go to NASPA.org, go under publications, and you can see all the journals right there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:39]: The 2025 NASPA annual conference schedule has been released. You can take a look at all of the things happening at the upcoming NASPA 25 conference in March to be able to see all the different programs that are going to be there and start putting together a schedule for yourself. If you're planning to attend the NASPA annual conference today, now is a great time to start planning your schedule out so you know all of the different programs that you may want to attend. I mentioned earlier this fall that the new class of pillars of the profession have been named. And now is a great time before the end of the year. If you have an interest in wanting to make a donation to honor one of the 2025 Pillars of the Profession, you can do so by going to the NASPA Foundation website to be able to learn more about all of our 2025 Pillar of the Profession class. And you can make a donation of any amount to support 1, 2, or all of them. I highly encourage you to honor these individuals, putting it by putting in a donation to be able to support them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:45]: But also by doing that, you're also supporting the foundation, which provides scholarships and more to support the work of NASPA. Talking about the annual conference, one other conference that's coming up. If you can't go to the annual in person conference, make sure to set aside April 9th through 11th for the 2025 Virtual Conference. The 2025 Virtual Conference is a 3 day interactive educational experience for you as student affairs professionals or anyone else that is a partner to higher education that will engage you in high quality content centered around individual and team growth. There will be multiple educational sessions, including extended learning workshops that will allow for you and your teams to participate in personal and professional development throughout the live event and on demand. The nice thing is that by registering for this conference, all of the sessions are available on demand for 1 year. So even if you watch them once and you want to come back and watch them again, you have the opportunity to do just that. You can find out more on the learning portal of the NASPA website.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:55]: You can go to learning.naspa.org and then go to the virtual conference for more information. But while you're there, make sure to check out all of the learning opportunities that are available to you as a NASPA member. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:22]: Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:33]: Chris, it's always a pleasure to hear from you on what's going on in and around NASPA. And Ainsley, we have reached our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Are you ready?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:41:46]: Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:46]: Okay. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:41:51]: Bring them out Bring them Out by TI.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:53]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:41:56]: I wanted to be a professional athlete.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:58]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:01]: Barack Obama.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:02]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:04]: The next act, realigning your mindset, purpose, and career by Jason Pena and Amy Hecht.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:11]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:13]: Game of Thrones.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:15]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:19]: Pardon the interruption.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:20]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:24]: Let me give a shout out to I just mentioned them, Jason Pena and Amy Heck. I believe they put out a great publication called the next act realigned in your mindset, purpose, and career. And it's all about the next step for college administrators like us. So I think this is gonna be an exciting read, and I wanna encourage everyone to go out and check it out.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:43]: Ainsley, thank you so much for teaching us today about what's going on in the UBC context and a little bit of the Canadian higher education context. If anyone would like to learn from you after the show airs, how can they find you?

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:42:54]: Please email me [email protected]. That's a ins [email protected]. And you can also hit me up on LinkedIn.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:10]: Ainsley, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Ainsley Carry [00:43:13]: Thank you, Jill, for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:20]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:58]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

As we reach the mid-season break of NASPA's SA Voices from the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton, our devoted host, takes a moment to reflect on the beautiful journey so far. Highlighting the incredible range of professionals, from undergraduate students to distinguished pillars in the field, Dr. Creighton appreciates every guest who has shared their wisdom and stories on the show.

Indigenous Awareness During Thanksgiving

In alignment with the American Thanksgiving holiday, Dr. Creighton emphasizes the significance of acknowledging the indigenous history of the lands we inhabit. By using resources like Native Land (native-land.ca), the podcast encourages higher education professionals to build a deeper understanding and empathy for indigenous communities. This approach aims to foster a more inclusive environment for students, faculty, and staff.

Ongoing Conversations and Future Episodes

Even as the podcast takes a brief hiatus, listeners can look forward to more enriching conversations slated for the upcoming weeks. As Dr. Creighton and her team prepare for the next leg of the season, they remain committed to exploring the past, present, and future of student affairs.

Listener Engagement

Dr. Creighton closes the episode by expressing gratitude to the podcast’s loyal listeners and encourages them to share feedback and suggestions for future topics and guests. She reminds everyone that their engagement helps broaden the show's reach within the academic community.

Catch more insightful episodes of SA Voices from the Field after the Thanksgiving break, as we continue to delve into the dynamic world of student affairs.

On the latest episode of NASPA's Victors in Grad School podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton engages with Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew and Dr. Renee Bolling to shed light on the often-overlooked aspects of religious and spiritual diversity on college campuses. This episode delves deep into how institutions can create more inclusive environments that respect and celebrate diverse spiritual identities. Their insights provide valuable guidance for educational administrators and student affairs professionals aiming to foster spiritual inclusivity.

Student Spiritual Needs and Inclusivity

Dr. Renee Bolling begins by emphasizing the fundamental role that spiritual support and expression play in students' lives. College students value having access to prayer spaces, meditation rooms, and dietary options tailored to their religious needs, signaling to them that the campus respects and acknowledges their faith. The presence of these facilities does more than meet basic needs; it profoundly impacts students' perceptions of inclusivity and belonging.

Impact of Campus Climate on Religious Diversity

The discussion then shifts to the broader implications of campus climate on perceptions of religious diversity. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew notes that events such as protests regarding geopolitical issues, like the Israel-Palestine conflict, can heavily influence students' perceptions of how their religious identities are valued on campus. He underlines the critical need for institutions to create environments that facilitate open, respectful dialogue around these complex issues.

Demographic Shifts and Personal Spirituality

A notable trend highlighted in the conversation is the increasing movement among students away from organized religion towards personal spirituality or secular identities. This shift challenges campuses to rethink how they provide spiritual support. Interestingly, their college experiences can either reinforce or reshape their spiritual commitments, suggesting that campus environments have a significant role in students' spiritual development.

The Role of Student Affairs Professionals

Student affairs professionals are at the forefront of fostering spiritual inclusivity. As Dr. Bolling points out, more public universities are creating religious and spiritual life offices, dedicated to supporting diverse religious expressions. These professionals are tasked with not only ensuring students' spiritual needs are met but also challenging them intellectually and promoting bridge-building activities.

Advancements and Challenges in Spiritual Inclusivity

The episode also highlights promising practices, such as providing transportation to spiritual or prayer spaces and enhancing bias reporting systems. However, both Dr. Bolling and Dr. Mayhew stress the ongoing training gap; fewer than 30% of staff in student affairs have formal training in managing religious diversity. They advocate for more comprehensive training programs to equip educators and student affairs professionals to handle spiritual diversity tensions effectively.

Conclusion: Moving Forward with INSPIRES

The INSPIRES index, discussed extensively in the episode, represents a significant advancement in assessing and improving campus climates for religious and spiritual identity inclusivity. Funded by the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, INSPIRES provides institutions with a scorecard and actionable recommendations across seven domains, aiding in the creation of more inclusive campuses.

Institutions interested in participating in the INSPIRES survey can access the index website, with the survey closing on December 16.

In summary, this episode of SA Voices From the Field offers a comprehensive look at the multifaceted role of spiritual inclusivity in higher education. As colleges continue to evolve, ensuring that all students feel seen, heard, and respected in their spiritual identities remains a critical aspect of their mission.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm Doctor. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices From the Field, it's my pleasure to welcome 2 scholars from the Ohio State University. They're gonna be talking about the work they're doing with the INSPIRES index, which is an index that focuses on religious and spiritual identity. Our first guest is doctor Renee Bolling. Doctor Bolling is WorldView Research Director of the College Impact Labs Interfaith Projects at The Ohio State University and has over 20 years shaping the student experience in US and international p 20 education administration.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: She chairs the NASPA Spirituality and Religion in Higher Education Knowledge Community, serves on the editorial board of the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice, and mentors international EDD students through an HBCU. Her research interests include comparative international education, critical internationalization, educational leadership, global learning, and worldview diversity, all topics related to her dissertation, which received the best practices in research and scholarship award from the International Education Knowledge Community. Renee earned her PhD from OSU's Higher Education Education Student Affairs Program, a postgraduate certificate in religious studies and education from Harvard, an MA in counseling and human development from Walsh University, and a BA in sociology from the University of Akron. Our second guest is doctor Matthew j Mayhew. Doctor Mayhew is the William Ray and Marie Addison Fletcher Professor of Educational Administration. His research is focused on how collegiate conditions, educational practices, and student experiences influence learning and democratic outcomes, including moral reasoning, pluralism, productive exchange across worldview differences, and innovation. To support the study of college and its impact on student development and learning, he's been awarded more than $20,000,000 in funding from sources, including but not limited to the United States Department of Education, the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, the Merrifield Family Trust, and the National Science Foundation. He's published more than 60 peer reviewed articles and journals as well as how college affects students volume 3.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:15]: He received his doctorate from the University of Michigan. Welcome to SA Voices, Renee and Matt. Hello.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:02:21]: Hi. How are you? Thanks for having us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:23]: Really looking forward to talking to you both today about all of the work you're doing with the INSPIRES index. But before we jump into the research and how you're contributing right now to the the present and the future of student affairs, we always love to get to know our guests by asking you kind of how you've gotten to your current seat. So, Renee, let's start with you.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:02:41]: Fantastic. Well, I'm really happy to be here with you today and everyone listening in. I started off in higher education student affairs and residence life like many of us, and then I wound my way into, k twelve counseling and student support, and ended up serving overseas in an international school. That got me more and more interested in this facet of diversity, religious, secular, and spiritual, or also known as worldview diversity. And so some questions from practice actually drove me back to a higher ed student affairs doctoral program where I met doctor Mayhew and began working on the INSPIRES index and some other projects.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:14]: And, Matt, how about you?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:03:15]: Wow. That was really impressive, Renee, I have to say. That was efficient and well done. I can go on for hours here, but I'll just say that I have a history with data and numbers and a history in student affairs. And those histories align with the journey I had through college. So I started at College of the Holy Cross for my 1st year, transferred to Wheaton College, then to Brandeis University, and then to the University of Michigan where I received my doctorate. And along the way, of course, those schools do identify differentially by way of RSSI or religious, spiritual, and secular ways of thinking about schools and who they serve. And so from those kinds of context and those experiences, I kinda came into the idea that college and university life should prepare students to have productive dialogue across all walks of life, including those we typically call religious.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:04:05]: And so I've practiced that in in not only my professorship, but also a long way. I was a resident director of a small college called Fisher College, Downtown Boston, and also I was the director of student life assessment at University of North Carolina at Wilmington. So my heart is in student affairs. I actually had a job in student affairs before becoming a professor of student affairs. And so all of those kinds of experiences blend together to inform my work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:30]: I really enjoy the smallness of our profession sometimes. And just full disclosure for our audience, Renee and I have known each other for couple years now having met in that international education space. And Matt and I just met in the pre show chatter today, but we are connected to similar people within the profession. So I'm just gonna give a brief shout out to Ashley Staples, who I used to work with at NYU, who is I know a mentee of Matt's. So we're all interlaced in student affairs usually.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:04:55]: Absolutely. Hello.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:57]: And you all are at Ohio State or as an Oregon State alum myself, I I always have to give you all a little bit of the business for being the other OSU, but I'm sure that's not not a thing you all hear a lot.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:05:10]: Well, it's funny. No. We do, actually, because Oklahoma State also tends to have the same sort of introductory jokes and remarks. But remember, we are at the Ohio State.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:19]: So that might just irritate us a little bit. So That came out of here.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:05:24]: Well and to be specific, we're at the College Impact Lab in the College of Education and Human Ecology at the Ohio State University.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:31]: Well, the work that you all are doing with the INSPIRES index, I thought fit in really nicely with our theme, the season of the past, present, and future of student affairs, particularly with the present and the future. INSPIRES is an acronym, so I'm hoping you can start with telling us what it stands for and kind of how you got here.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:05:47]: It stands for the interfaith spiritual, religious, and secular campus climate index, INSPIRES for short, and it's really, an outgrowth of past research. It's a very much a research based assessment tool based on past ideals in research, which I I think doctor Mayhew can tell us more about in a moment. But its intention is really to provide benchmarking to institutions that they can use to improve practice for diverse RSSIs, and also to provide families, students, and the public with a public face facing tool that they can use for college choice to understand how different campuses are responding to and helping to support different students in this diversity.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:06:25]: That's exactly right. And thank you, Renee, for saying that. So I turned it over to Renee because I couldn't remember because I'm getting old. And my students call it seasoning, but my daughter calls it balding. I couldn't remember actually what INSPIRE stood, but I can give you some of the background and context, and that is Alyssa Rockenbach from North Carolina State, what used to be called Interfaith Youth Corps, but is now called Interfaith America. And I kind of started this partnership a long time ago to try to look at what religious and worldview identities, how they developed during college. And we've surveyed over thousands and thousands of students over hundreds of schools and talked to faculty and staff along the way. And we learned a lot.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:07:02]: And, basically, what the INSPIRES index does is it takes information from all of that research and and really distills it into one inventory so that we can say that campus x is a welcoming environment for Jewish students. Campus x might have some issues with being welcoming for Muslim students. And when we say that, it's not just theoretical. We've actually asked Jewish students and Muslim students, what makes you feel more welcome on campus? And then we turned those ideas into items on the inventory. So everything on the inventory comes from the voices of the very people we're trying to help.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:42]: What are some of the things that you're hearing are important for students who come from spiritual backgrounds, as they're looking at college choice?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:07:49]: The number one thing I would say that kinda cuts across all the groups, and this surprises people a lot of times is, the idea of space for support and spiritual expression. So all students, even evangelical students and students who I don't have identify with any particular religion or non religious students, When they walk onto campus and they see that a campus provides prayer spaces for Muslim students that think, wow, this campus is welcoming toward all religious identities, even my own. And that came up over and over and over again with regard to how students were making meaning of what is welcoming for them. There are welcoming issues and factors for each group specifically. As an example, for Jewish students, having, kosher meals provided in every dining facility on campus is really important. Some institutions have them, but they're in different buildings across campus. And so, when Jewish students wanna have a meal with their friends and they don't wanna have to schlep across campus to friends, sometimes that compromises whether the the Jewish students can eat with their friends or not. And so that is something that Jewish students feel is very important for making them feel welcome is this idea that there are kosher meals at all dining facilities across campus.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:09:02]: And we have examples of each of those kinds of things for each group.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:05]: Let's dig into that a little bit. I think it's it's quite fascinating to hear that the signal for inclusion may not even be related to my own identities, but whether or not the university or the college is is kind of outlying where inclusion happens for someone who might not identify like me. What do you make of that?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:09:23]: Well, we do see it over and over again. For example, one of the things that we've noticed is that students are paying attention when another student is experiencing a negative incident on campus. They're watching and seeing how it's handled. They're watching to see how faculty respond. They're picking up on how they perceive other groups as being welcome or not, and that informs their own experience of the campus climate.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:46]: You all have been doing this work long before the campus protests began to erupt regarding Israel and Palestine across the last year. How are you seeing that work impacted or affected or the the way that students are responding to the index be affected by the current climate?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:10:02]: It's a great question. We will have some data in about 2 weeks. You have to invite us back. We actually have a campus, a module as part of the INSPIRES index that asked campuses how they managed the campus protests over the course of the last year. And we asked very specific questions of campuses, and those questions came from experts in the Jewish faith and Muslim faith as well as psychometricians and folks on the ground. So student affairs officers who were dealing with the crisis on a day to day basis, we vetted the survey to make sure, oh, is this really tapping into the dimensions that you found to be important on campus? I think there's a lot to talk about here, but one of the things I'd like to talk about when this comes up is, you know, how religious diversity might differ from other forms of diversity. And because folks for a long time haven't thought about that really or or religion's been sort of stiff armed as something that is not as central to be an inclusion as other forms of Folks haven't really been readied for thinking about religion differently. So let me give you an example of that.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:11:10]: There's a logic of choice that oftentimes is is associated with religion that's not associated with, say, other forms of diversity. And so there are in the western way we think about religion, especially, a lot of the students that come to campus think that religion is a choice. On Tuesday, you can be atheist, and on Wednesday, you could be an evangelical. And because of that choice that people have and how they identify, then that kind of makes its way into diversity conversations as a distinctive, way of thinking about how do we then inform practice, inform policies on campus when choice might be something that students are thinking about. Choice is not necessarily something some a lot of folks think about, say, in the context of race, in the context of GLBTQIA plus issues, in the context of those kinds of things. But with religion, especially from the western perspective, choice is something that's entertained. We have other logics too like coercion. That's a logic also that might be very specific to religion.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:12:10]: How does an authentic conversation between people of different faiths or non faith based tradition, when does that evolve or devolve depending on whom you ask into a coercive conversation where somebody's trying to convert me rather than just have an authentic conversation about lived experiences? So those are the kinds of nuances that if we hadn't talked about religion, we need to start talking about it much more readily in order to really understand where the motivations for some of the protesting comes from and the policy set to manage the protest.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:41]: Let's back up for a second here, and I'd like to get into some of the demographics of the average American college campus. I think you're absolutely accurate in saying that the average student affairs practitioner maybe isn't as knowledgeable in the DEI spaces around religion as we might be around racial identity or ability or sexual orientation, etcetera. So who are our students right now on the average American campus? How are they identifying? And what do we know on kind of that metadata perspective?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:13:09]: I think that it's very different, Jill, based on the college that you're asking about. So when we think about things like Christian colleges or evangelical schools, what the average, if you will, look or makeup of that campus, it's gonna be very different than students may be at a public institution, and that's gonna look very different than students may be at a private institution, and that's gonna look very different than students may be at a private nonsectarian institution. And so the way we think about context really does inform the answer to that question. What we do know just in general is that over the college experience, there are more students who are leaving formalized religion and identifying rather as spiritual and non religious, and that's kind of growing over time. We've also learned though that there are students, who go into college with a certain faith based background and they actually meet other folks, and they discuss ideas and life choices and purpose and calling with those folks. And it oftentimes strengthens their commitment to their faith because the students are able to make their faith their own. And so it's very difficult to, like, hone in on specific statistics because the context differs so much.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:14:15]: That's true. And one of the things that we've done with INSPIRE is we've looked across institutional type. So comparing institutions to like institutions, whether those are private, public, have a religious affiliation, or a particular type of religious affiliation, trying to compare apples to apples in that sense so that when they're benchmarked, they're seeing how other institutions like them are doing serving their populations.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]: What is the role of student affairs today in supporting students' spiritual identity, spiritual growth, or spiritual connection?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:14:46]: Well, this could take hours, and I love it. So somebody recently just asked me to to to talk about this. And there are really a couple of things and I'll I'll just bring up the the first two that come to mind. Students are really able to differentiate between relationships that they find harmful, that they find coercive, and that they find challenging and provocative. And so the key for student affairs practitioners is in whatever context they are in, whether they're putting on a program or an activity, they need to design an environment where students are challenged, but students are not harmed by what's going on in that space. And the only way to do that is for the educator really to shore up their own knowledge about power in the space, their own knowledge about white Christian nationalism, and how that's kind of forced its way into the academy, insidious and sometimes overt ways, but also being able to wrestle with their own RSSI identity, if you will. Try to make meaning of that so that they can provide kind of a measurable vulnerability as an introduction into the context and space. That's one thing I would say needs to happen.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:15:50]: The other, and this is critically important, this is really hard, is for the activities and the programs themselves to be bridge building. So it can't be that you just have an activity over here for evangelicals and you happen to invite atheists to the activity for evangelicals and hope magic happens. There has to be some intentional bridge building around the program or activity where conversations enable people to talk about their lived experiences in ways that are really challenging, but supported by the folks who are actually in the space running it.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:16:22]: And this gets to something that you were you were sharing and asking about earlier, which is that the training that we have in student affairs around this. We know from INSPIREs that from our participating campuses, the highest area of folks who have training in, religious diversity in that background is in residence life and mental health counselors, and that's at around 30% having that training. In other areas, academic advising, health center and wellness staff, career counselors, we're looking at between 6 10% having training in this area. So this is a very large need in our in our profession.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:55]: And how do we balance all of the need to be educated and informed in this situation with what some people would say might be butting up against the values of a public institution?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:17:04]: Well, I think first of all, we need to understand that even though there's a a general understanding or at least access to language about separation between church and state, folks need to understand what that actually means. What that actually doesn't mean is that you can't talk about religion on campus. You could talk about religion all you want on campus and whatever space you want. Separation of church and state has nothing to do with what's discussed on campus. That's the first thing. The second thing that's really important to understand is if we don't talk about religion in spaces where students want to talk about religion, then how in the world are we educating the whole student? How are we really getting at their lived experiences if we're saying, oh, well, 80% of your lived experiences we'll talk about, but the 20% having to do with religion, that's not welcome here. It doesn't make sense. And so I think we have to really start to think holistically about how we offer the educations we do offer at colleges and universities.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:18:01]: There's also a distinction between devotional teaching about a tradition or a worldview and academic or teaching about that religious, secular, or spiritual worldview and engaging and having authentic encounters with difference. And that's what we're talking about here is being equipped to have those encounters in ways that are productive, in ways that build a a sense of pluralism where everyone is welcome, and these aren't conversations that we're afraid to have, but that we're empowered to have in ways that are respectful and respect the dignity of all students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:32]: Let's talk about what that training can look like for student affairs practitioners. What is it that institutions are doing well right now that leads them to these inclusive spaces?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:18:42]: More and more institutions are starting to have multi faith spaces and spaces for religious identities to feel a sense of safety, have a safe space that they can go and express their religious identity. I think where we need to work a little bit more is on these brave spaces and building up faculty and staff training to be able to, facilitate some of these encounters. Another area that we are doing somewhat well in, as was touched on earlier, was accommodations for different religious and spiritual identities to be able to access food. We know that food insecurity is an issue across different groups on campus, but we could be doing better, like Doctor. Mayhew said, in making sure that this isn't just one place on campus, but that it's throughout our dining and residential facilities.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:23]: That food element is so critical. I know last year we had Ramadan fasting happening during a lot of people's finals weeks, which deeply impacts the students' ability to be successful. We've also had fasting for other holidays happening in conjunction with all sorts of other things that could impact student performance in the classroom. So I think that's one way to to fundamentally connect where the rubber meets the road really in terms of inclusion.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:19:46]: One thing that we learned from surveying presidents after the incidents of October 7th was that there are not enough, religious, secular, and spiritual or interfaith councils on campuses where that line of communication is opened up between the university, between student affairs professionals, and between both students who represent different religious identities and community members and community leaders who also represent them. And that's an area for growth for the profession, and it's also an area that presidents of universities have expressed interest in.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:20:16]: Right. I was just gonna say that was so eloquently put, Renee. Thank you. But I was gonna invite some of my colleagues across the country. And for those of you who are graduates of student affairs programs, please call or get in touch with the people who are still on campus teaching the next generation of of practitioner. A lot of the programs that we've seen have shored up the curriculum in ways that spiritual, religious, and secular diversity doesn't even make it into courses on, student development and learning anymore. It used to be we had a full year at Ohio State of that course, and we've actually had to cut back because students wanted other requirements. And in cutting back, sometimes we miss the whole conversation because there's just not enough space in the classroom to talk about it.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:20:57]: And so I think that that's really important if we do value it and if students are living it, then we need to have some formal training in how to think about RSSI work while students are getting their master's degrees and then moving on into the profession.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:21:11]: I think one opportunity for us is in thinking about students' multidimensional identities and even their intersectionality. What we know is that not everywhere views their religious, secular, or spiritual identity as a choice. There are definitely religious cultures, a religious, and spiritual communities of belonging that are more about praxis or about community than they are even about belief. And so I think that's an area to think about where this crossover is between different types of diversity.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:37]: Let's go back to the index. You've worked with dozens and dozens of institutions. We can see them all on the website. If I'm an institution that is interested in becoming part of the index process, what am I going to receive as an outcome? What what is involved with my students? What information should I be looking forward to? What can I change of my practice based on the dataset I might get back?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:21:58]: Well, let me provide a context and then I'll head it over. I'll kick it over to Renee really quickly. So with generous funding from the Arthur Defining Davis Foundations, we've been able to provide this index for free for institutions. It's also not a survey of students. It's one inventory that somebody or a group of somebodies takes on behalf of their institution that then comes back to us and we analyze. And analysis will give them some insight. We do provide specific reporting back to the institutions to give them insight on how they're doing compared to students like that or or other institutions like them. Excuse me.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:22:32]: And so that is kind of what the institutions get. And then what the what the public gets, if the institution allows their data to go public, you know, folks are able to see kind of how they're doing in different spaces. And that's really helpful, not only in the spirit of transparency, which we hope most institutions have, but also just giving caregivers and the students the information they need when they're making college decisions.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:22:54]: The 2 kind of feedback mechanisms for university are a scorecard that is produced where they receive a star rating on 7 different areas or domains, and then they also receive a report that gives recommendations based on those star ratings. The 7 domains are religious accommodations, space for support and expression, structural diversity, institutional behavior, efforts to reduce negative engagement, and extracurricular engagement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:20]: The most important thing I think you said is that it's free for institutions right now due to grant funding. It's very rare that we get rich assessment tools that we don't have to invest in. Sounds like there's a time investment, but not necessarily a monetary one right now. So if I'm an institution and this is speaking to me or maybe I'm I'm listening, I'm a VPSA and I think we need to do this, How can we make that happen?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:23:39]: Well, I'd love to direct you to our INSPIRE's index website, which is very simply inspiresindex.org. And we also have QR code access and other such things that we can share. But right now, there is a live link direct to begin the survey open through December 16th, and we're welcoming new campuses to join in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:57]: Is there anything else you want student affairs voices from the field listeners to know about this important work that you're doing with religious identity and spiritual interfaith identity on college campuses?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:24:07]: Well, there's a ton more, and I wish we had hours to talk about this because this is our life work. I will say with regard to the index, only because Gillette comes up so often. Even though the press and other people ask us to rank institutions like who's doing the best at what, we don't do that. It violates the whole spirit of what inspires us all about. So we might have a couple of institutions that we say these institutions collectively are doing a pretty good job at x or y or z, but we're never gonna say this institution ranks 1, you rank 2, you rank 3. It just violates the whole thing. And I think that's really important for folks who are making decisions about participation, know, that we are never going to allow that to happen. And so I think that's really important because in the spirit of what we're trying to do here, which is bring people together through thinking, strategically as well as thoughtfully about religious, spiritual, and secular diversity, it's just not it's not aligned with any of the values that we carry forward.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:00]: Without naming an institution then, can you identify some of the practices that are looking really promising in this area that are happening on campuses right now?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:25:08]: Oh, sure. I think, transportation is a big one. So when folks need to go to different places to pray or to have reflection time or different spaces on campus, oftentimes that they need to practice whatever they wanna practice, a lot of institutions are providing free transportation to those spaces because there's not necessarily gonna be a prayer space set in every residence hall, for example. That's a very promising practice that we see folks are engaging right now. Another promising practice is folks are really starting to take on the idea of bias reporting in this space and how to close the loop. So oftentimes, people will will report something or students will report that something happened, and then they feel like it goes into an echo chamber, and they never really get information on what actually happened with their complaint. And so we do have institutions that are really being very strategic about closing that loop a bit to ensure that everybody knows that this is a safe place, and there will be responsiveness when these issues come up. There's a lot of others as well, but those are the ones that I've recently been speaking about at least, and there's more for sure.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:26:12]: If I may, I think there's also some things on more of a macro structural level that we're starting to see. It used to be that you saw religious and spiritual life offices more at private campuses, and we're beginning to see more of them at public universities, even flagship universities. And that's exciting to see that commitment to equity across different types of religious expression and diversity as something that is protected under our amendment rights, but also something that can be supportive of students in their diversity. So that's exciting to see. We know already that that there's chaplaincy available at public institutions in their medical schools. It's just not nearly as readily available on the student facing side for undergraduate and graduate students. So I think there's a lot of opportunity here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]: I'm going to go ahead and move us into our theme questions for the season. And again, we're focusing on the past, present, and future of student affairs. So I'm gonna ask you one question from each era. So on the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should either continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:27:15]: I think a focus on holistic learning and holistic student development requires us to pay attention to how students are doing spiritually and their spiritual diversity.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:27:24]: I think the whole idea that religion is something that we shouldn't bring up or that we shouldn't actually be intentional about should be abandoned. Obviously, I think that there's a lot of room in the way we think about providing services and activities to students, especially the whole student, like Renee said, for us to strategically think about how to put these programs together in ways that are actually bringing folks together and healing communities.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:46]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:27:51]: Well, I think student affairs is doing a really good job right now at trying to provide places for students who might be experiencing some sort of struggle in their journey in college, providing them a place to struggle, a place to be free about talking about those struggles, a place to be free about thinking about new ideas, and whether that is in the residence halls with their, residence life staff. As Renee said, a lot of the institutions are training their staff across different functional areas. So we do know the word is getting out. So wherever students decide to have those struggles, there's some shining hope that people across functional areas are actually being trained to talk about these issues with students.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:28:31]: I think in the present, we're seeing a good amount of conflict in our world that it reaches our campuses at times, and that's to be expected. I think that some of the work that we're doing and sharing about can provide some tools to campuses to better address when these issues arise on their campus so that the first time they're building building relationships and bridges isn't after something happens, but more proactively before things happen.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:56]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing to thrive towards the future?

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:29:01]: There's so many things I wanna say that I'm trying to distill it down into one area here. I think that for the future, higher education programs especially need to take on the challenge of training students on how to effectively manage any sort of or tension on campus due to religious and spiritual and secular diversity. I think that that's a challenge. I don't know if there's a lot of people out there who know how to train the trainers or even professors who know how to train the future generations. And so thinking about that is really, really challenging, but I think it's gonna become more and more important as the world shrinks due to technology. And like Renee said, as things are starting to lean into college campuses from, from what's happening overseas, religion's just gonna become more and more important as something to think about.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:29:44]: I'm going to piggyback off of that with my answer. I think this connection between religious, secular, and spiritual or worldview identity and culture, ethnicity, language, and class, I think exploring those connections is gonna continue to be important rather than thinking about diversity in kind of isolated spaces.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:08]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. Doctor Janai Chandler has joined the, research and Policy Institute for NASPA as the new vice president for research and policy. With over 17 years experience as a higher education practitioner, researcher, and policy advocate, she aims to equip NASPA members and student affairs professionals with valuable research and policy tools to enhance student and staff success. Doctor. Chandler is particularly eager to engage with the 2024 top issues and hear from you about how to best support your work. She's a proud graduate of the HESA doctoral program at Florida State University, where she worked in advising and academic affairs. There's a brand new book in the NASPA bookstore entitled The Next Act, Realigning Your Mindset, Purpose and Career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:02]: The Next Act Realigning Your Mindset, Purpose and Career explores diverse career development opportunities for student affairs professionals. The book discusses broadly how professionals can navigate their career paths within and beyond higher education, encouraging adaptability and personal growth. Through real life narratives, the authors offer practical advice on assessing and aligning one's career with personal passions and evolving professional goals. They also challenge traditional views on career advancement, emphasizing the importance of finding fulfillment and purpose in work. The chapters examine a wide range of career transitions from advancing within student affairs to moving into consulting, faculty roles, or even PK-twelve education. By reading this book, you will gain valuable insights on how to adapt to the ever evolving higher education landscape while discovering new opportunities for leadership and success. Whether you're considering a career shift or seeking to advance your current role, this book offers a wealth of guidance on finding purpose and achieving long term career satisfaction. Speaking of the 2024 top issues in student affairs, this annual survey completed by senior leaders in student affairs offers you a snapshot of the most important issues impacting institutions in 2024.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]: NASPA recently released the top ten issues in 2024, some of which include issues in regard to health, safety and well-being, administration and governance, assessment and evaluation and more. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website under Reports and Briefs, which can be found on the NASPA website under publications and then reports. You will find the full list of the top ten key areas, which I've mentioned to you already, and the specific issues in those areas that chief student affairs officers have listed as important for our profession. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:49]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: Chris, thank you as always for for providing us an informative NASPA world segment. It's always great to know what's going on in and around NASPA. And we have now reached our lightning round, Renee and Matt. So I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to go?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:35]: Let's go. Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:37]: Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:42]: Small town girl.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:43]: We will rock you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]: 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:47]: Somebody who traveled a lot.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:48]: Wanted to be my dad.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:52]: Dr. Eleanor Nicholson.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:53]: Dr. Ernie Pasquarello.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:54]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:57]: I'll say the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:00]: How College Affects Students, volume 3.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:02]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:05]: I'm a huge Outlander fan.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:06]: The Bear.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:07]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:10]: I'd have to say this one.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:12]: I'm not a big podcast person.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:13]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:17]: I'd love to give a professional shout out to the entire College Impact Lab or COIL Lab team at OSU, the brains and the brawn behind the INSPIRES index.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:26]: I would like to give a shout out to all of the funders who've participated in this and all of the institutions that have partnered with us. There's been a lot of institutions with us along the way and they stay with us and we do see it as a partnership. So thank you all for your continued, continued partnerships.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:40]: It's been so wonderful to learn from both of you about the important work that you're doing on RSSI on college campuses and the information that you're putting out for all of us so we can continue to learn, improve our practices. If I would like to get a hold of you after the show, how can I find you?

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:55]: If you reach us at the inspiresindex.org website, you'll be able to find contact to our team, and we're happy to be in touch with you.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:36:03]: And my email at work, it's [email protected].

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:08]: And, Renee and Matt, thank you so much for sharing your voices with us today.

Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:36:12]: Thank you, Jill. This was great. I appreciate you.

Dr. Renee Bolling [00:36:14]: Happy to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:20]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on NASPA's SA Voices From the Field podcast Dr. Jill Creighton sat down with Duane Bedell, President of Bay Mills Community College (BMCC), to delve into the vital role the college plays in supporting student success and cultural preservation within tribal communities. From leadership advice to the integration of Ojibwe culture into educational frameworks, Bedell shared his path and vision for BMCC, emphasizing the college's motto of fostering personal and professional growth among its students.

Bay Mills Community College: A Foundation for Success

Duane Bedell underscores BMCC's mission to empower students to pursue further education or establish themselves in the workforce. At BMCC, mentorship and personalized guidance are integral to the student experience. Bedell highlights how the institution offers a supportive environment that helps students build confidence and identify their paths, whether it be continuing their education or entering their chosen careers.

Encouraging Advanced Education and Leadership

A passionate advocate for higher education, Bedell encourages students and staff at BMCC to aspire toward advanced degrees like PhDs and EdDs. He shares his own journey, starting as an adjunct faculty member in 2000 and progressing to the role of president in 2020, a journey marked by mentorship and dedication. His leadership advice is practical yet profound: take calculated risks, prepare for sacrifices, maintain an open mind, and always value team feedback. For Bedell, balancing professional responsibilities with personal life is key, and he promotes a healthy work-life balance among his team members by setting boundaries and prioritizing personal time.

Integrating Ojibwe Culture into Education

One of BMCC's unique aspects is its commitment to integrating Ojibwe culture into every course and aspect of campus life. Bedell emphasizes the importance of cultural sensitivity and understanding within educational institutions, particularly those serving tribal communities. Through partnerships with various tribes across the U.S. and innovative teaching strategies, BMCC ensures that students are deeply connected to their heritage and traditions. This holistic approach not only preserves cultural knowledge but also enriches the educational experience, making it more relevant and engaging for students.

Supporting Student Transfers and Success

Bedell's doctoral research focuses on the alarming success rates of tribal students as they transition from tribal colleges to mainstream institutions. Key findings suggest that a strong sense of community and family proximity are critical factors for student success. To facilitate this transition, Bedell advocates for collaborative practices between tribal and mainstream institutions, encouraging better communication and resource sharing.

Future Directions and Concluding Thoughts

As BMCC looks towards the future, Bedell envisions the need for education to adapt to societal changes and trends to meet evolving student needs effectively. Improvements in data collection and communication have already enhanced decision-making processes and student support services within higher education. Ultimately, Bedell’s leadership and insights illuminate how institutions can balance cultural preservation with academic excellence, offering a model for other colleges to follow.

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TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, we welcome Duane Biddell, president of Bay Mills Community College. Duane resides in Ganuja Kaaneng, the place of the pike in the Bay Mills Indian community, and has worked in tribal communities for more than 20 years in various roles. He served as an information technology director for the Intertribal Council of Michigan, an adjunct faculty member for Bay Mills Community College, BMCC, and a full time faculty member and computer information systems department chair. He also served as Bay Mills Indian Community tribal manager for 2 years before being named by BMCC's Board of Regions as BMCC's president and CEO in 2020. Bedell attended and graduated from tribal colleges.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:02]: He attended Haskell Indian Junior College and completed his studies at BMCC in 1998 with an associate of applied science degree in computer information systems. While working full time and raising a family, Duane continued his education earning a bachelor's degree in information technology and security from Baker College in 2013 and a master of arts degree in education technology from the University

Duane Bedell [00:01:21]: of Michigan Flint in 2015. In 2018, he

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:21]: completed an education 2018, he completed an education specialist degree from the University of Michigan Flint. And in 2020, he earned the status of doctoral candidate in education administration. Fidel is expected to defend his dissertation in November of 2024. His commitment to giving back to education involves a presidential appointment to the National Advisory Council on Indian Education, along with mentoring future leaders who have an interest in higher education. Duane likes to be known as just a guy trying to make a difference in education. Duane, welcome to SA Voices.

Duane Bedell [00:01:52]: Hi. It's great to be here today, and I absolutely look forward to our conversation today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:57]: It's always such a pleasure for us here in a student affairs podcast to feature a college president because we can always learn from the much larger context of higher education when we get to hear your perspective on things. You're the current president of Bay Mills Community College, which is a community college that does focus on serving American Indians and indigenous American populations in your part of Michigan. And we always love to start off of our episodes by asking our guests, how did you get to your current seat?

Duane Bedell [00:02:25]: Well, there is a long story that's behind it, but I'm gonna do my best to condense this. I started off as a adjunct faculty member here at Bay Mills Community College back in 2000, and the way I was asked to teach a computer science course, it was I was the only available person really, and they called me and they asked if I could teach the course. And of course, being a shy, nervous IT guy at the time, I had thought there is no way I could stand in front of someone around a classroom, particularly for folks who are generally older than I am. Because at that time, Big Boss Community College had a lot of non traditional students, and I think I was 23, maybe 24 at the time when I was asked to teach this course. So I told them I would do it if they couldn't find anybody, but honestly, I don't think they even tried because they called back in about 10 minutes and asked, hey, we couldn't find anybody, so could you teach this course? So moving forward 10 years later, I decided to become a full time faculty member here at Bay Mills Community College. And at that time, I decided I wanted to try something a little bit different, and I wanted to learn a little bit about administration. So I started asking questions, and I became involved with the occupational programs that we have here, and got to meet a lot of great folks throughout the state to learn about the occupational services or our program through all of the community colleges in Michigan. And I just asked that one question one day to our president.

Duane Bedell [00:03:39]: I said, you know, what do I have to do to become the next you? Because he had signified that he was going to try to start mentoring some folks who were on the team already to see. So I had a private conversation with him over coffee, and he gave me a couple of really good pieces of advice that I followed up on and made happen. And lo and behold, here I am. I I am sitting in this role for 5 years now. I'm loving every minute of it. And I can tell you one thing, just to see the students really light up from the day that they walk into our facilities until the day that they graduate is just what I'm in it for. It's just watching student success and watching actually my team grow here at the college as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:15]: That's an amazing glow up from IT guy at the college all the way through sitting in the president's office today. What is the most important thing that your community college is focusing on right now?

Duane Bedell [00:04:25]: Really just to meet the students where they are at right now. Like a lot of other community colleges, we get students that come from all walks of life. We have students who are full time parents, who are single parents, who are working full time jobs when trying to manage their family. But one of the most important things that we do here is strive to meet the student where they're at in life and provide the resources for them. I think as the community college, it's very important for us to learn who our students are, to learn about their different learning styles, and find the resources that are available to fit them specifically so they can move forward in their academic program.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:01]: Because your community college is fulfilling a very specific need in Michigan, what are you doing that might be unique for Bay Mills that other community colleges aren't doing? Or what are you doing that you might think even be more cutting edge than what we might see at another community college?

Duane Bedell [00:05:17]: So one of the things that we do here at Bay Mills Community College, since we're designated as a tribal college, is that we incorporate our culture into every aspect of our campus. You can walk around the campus and see things written in the Ojibwe language. You can learn about the Ojibwe cultures in your classes. But most importantly is that you get to feel the sense of community while you are here as well. And once we incorporate all of these aspects into it, we really give a holistic learning environment for our students. Cutting Edge technology, we represent several tribes throughout the United States, and we also have partnerships with other tribal communities throughout the nation as well. So the last numbers that I took a look at, we represent 23 streets in the nation, and then we also represent, I believe it's 31 or maybe 32 tribes throughout the United States, and that's through our online environment. We do have a a, a lot of program that goes online towards tribal students, or essentially everybody can take these courses from from their homes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:13]: In the theme of past, present, and future of student affairs and really your case, higher education, I'm really appreciative of the of the way that you're talking about. You know, it's it's an experience where our culture is part of the curriculum rather than it's something that we're trying to squeeze in as something extra, which is what a lot of universities sometimes find themselves doing. So when you talk about kind of infusing or even weaving in Ojibwe culture into all aspects of student life, Can you give us a couple of examples of what that looks like in practice?

Duane Bedell [00:06:44]: Certainly. So our instructors or every course that's offered here on campus, whether it's an in person course or an online course, has to have some component throughout the semester that evolves around culture, or Anishinaabe culture, I should say. And our teachers have became very creative at that and how to incorporate culture into their curriculum. So I will follow-up on one example that that I was really fascinated by, and this came from a college algebra course, actually. So, you know, trying to blend math with Anishinaabe culture, or Ojibwe culture, is kind of difficult to do. But our math faculty member decided to have students work on building traditional regalia, dance regalia, but using mathematics and doing that as well. Another item too is just, you know, incorporate what our medicine wheel is or incorporate what our 7 grandfathers' teachings are as well. And we've incorporated these types of teachings into every course.

Duane Bedell [00:07:36]: In fact, it's it's mandatory for every course to have this embedded into their syllabus.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:40]: When you think about, syllabus. When you think about the past, present, and future of tribal colleges, you know, it's a bigger question than your particular community college. Can you tell us about the trends, for incorporation of culture or how we've kind of evolved over time in higher education to serve our indigenous American and American Indian population?

Duane Bedell [00:07:59]: You know, that that's a really good question. Where we have come from the past is just recognizing who tribal communities are and recognizing and learning about the different cultures and the different traditions that are involved with the tribal communities. And finding a way to bring that into a college could be difficult because there's so many aspects on that. But being located in a tribal community makes it a lot easier for a tribal college to do so. And one of the things is to always have the open ear and always listen because I don't know everything about my culture. And there's a lot of folks that I work with that don't know everything, but we rely on input from our community, particularly our elders. And our elders are really guiding us on the ways that help keep our traditions and our cultures alive throughout the program. So that way, the future generation will always have that as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:47]: Let's talk about student affairs specifically in your collegiate environment. I would imagine that you're also doing the same work to incorporate tradition and culture into aspects of student affairs. So with the team that you're leading, how are you taking the literature and the best practices that student affairs as a profession puts forth and making them work for your environment given that we know that our research is really focused on usually predominantly white institutions, predominantly white students, traditionally aged populations, all of those things.

Duane Bedell [00:09:16]: First of all, I have to say I have an excellent student services team. We really have a a team that is very dedicated to student success and finding the resources for our students as well. But one of the things that our team does is really take a look at the data. They take a look at the data from, from existing research, but they also take a look at ways that we can incorporate our tribal values into that as well. So they go about this to not only help students become successful, but also help them learn about their by providing a lot of events on campus. We host cultural events probably 3 to 4, sometimes 5 times a month and so on. But at the same time, teaching the students how to take that knowledge that they're learning and turn it into ways that they can become more professional and more successful by really just building the confidence that they can truly learn and that they can truly accomplish anything that they put their minds behind.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:08]: Anything that you're particularly proud of in your community right now in this regard?

Duane Bedell [00:10:12]: Just watching our tribal community grow and become more educated and not be afraid of education. When I first moved to the community and as I stated before recording, I was a military brat, so I got to travel around the world. When I first came here to our community, there were only 2 tribal members that had master's degrees. So moving forward about 25 years now, we have a significant amount of tribal members who have college degrees, whether they're associate degrees, whether they're bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, and doctoral degrees now, which to me is a huge accomplishment to see where we were back early nineties to where we're at right now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:49]: You yourself are in the final stages of your doctoral dissertation, Polish. Can you tell us about your research?

Duane Bedell [00:10:55]: So my research is really focusing on the success rate of tribal students who go to a tribal college versus students who go directly to a mainstream institution. And one of the emphasis that I really focused on is that tribal college, are they more successful when they transfer from the tribal college to go when they go to a university? And if so, what are some of the factors that that fall behind that? And one of the things that I really found was that the it's the sense of community at the tribal colleges. And the other part was that they're close to home. They have access to their families. Whereas if someone goes directly from a tribal community, which are typically rural areas, and move to a I'll use University of Michigan, for example, move to that campus. And just imagine how big that campus is. Their campus body is probably about sometimes 8 to 10 times larger than their entire community and trying to adapt to that, especially moving away from their families. So I was curious to see what are the success rates with the hopes of being able to develop a program that will allow mainstream institutions and tribal colleges to work together to support the, Native American students that attend their institutions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:59]: That's an amazing outcome from that research. What would that look like in practice? I think what would look like outcome from that research. What would that look like in practice?

Duane Bedell [00:12:02]: Yeah. I think what would look like is that both parties or institutions should have to sit down and share practices, knowledge, and share how they can engage particularly tribal students going to their institutions. But at the same time, folks who have tribal college also have to learn how the mainstream institutions work. So that way, they compare their prepared students as well when they make that transfer over. It's gonna take a lot of good conversations and a lot of planning, but I think it's something that can certainly happen.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:29]: There's a lot of social capital when we work with transfer students. And I think a lot of the things that benefit 1st gen students and what we know about 1st gen student research also applies to students who are transferring. And a lot of that has to do with simply doing the right onboarding for students on how to understand the system that they're entering. When we think about supporting students who are transferring from tribal colleges to, as as you term mainstream universities, what's the most important thing that the receiving institution can do to receive those students and set them up for success?

Duane Bedell [00:13:00]: Just have available resources ready for them and be really prepared to have a method to get these students to ask questions. A lot of times from our Native Americans in particular and myself, I'm one of them. I was really shy and I didn't know what types of questions I need to ask. I didn't know where I could find his resources. Probably just me being stubborn too is that I can figure it out on my own. And I'm sure that there are a lot of students that have that same mindset. So just in taking the student, show them the resources that are available, but most importantly, show them and teach them that they can be comfortable asking any question that they need to ask in order to find the resources or maybe even if it's just a a tour of the campus or introduce them to some key staff members, maybe a professor, maybe, someone from the student services that can be their person to go to. And I think if a student that transfers over has an individual that they can talk to and ask questions, I think that's gonna help a lot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:55]: And if I'm a professional right now working at a tribal college, what can I take from your research and implement at my institution?

Duane Bedell [00:14:00]: What you can take from from my research is really just to learn more about the institutions that our students can transfer to. So here, particularly in the state of Michigan, we have a wide range of different types of universities that we can go to. We have our mid 10 universities. We have our smaller universities like Central Michigan or Ferris State University, I. E. Even Northern Michigan University. But learning about the resources on that campus and learning about the individuals that they can contact individually just to learn more about that. So if they were going to send a student to Northern Michigan, I would say, our team should know exactly who's your advisor, what programs are gonna be there, and in what ways can Bay Mills Community College help you become more comfortable when you're transferring over? And I think if we ask those questions and create those contacts, I think it's gonna help a lot of our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:46]: What do you dream about for your institution?

Duane Bedell [00:14:48]: I dream about a lot of things, and I know that our institution really accomplished anything that we work toward because of the team that I have here. But first and foremost, I really just want to be the institution that is a place for folks to come and learn a little bit about themselves, gain confidence, and be able to leave our institution with the confidence to succeed at a mainstream university or enter the workforce and be confident about it. One of my biggest pushes as of late is to see if we can get more doctors out there that are in our communities. So, you know, it all starts with that conversation. And I really go around, even with some of my staff members here and students, is I know that they're completing the end of their studies here and they move on, I always plant that seed. Maybe you want to think about a PhD or an EdD. Maybe if you want it, if you want to come back and lead Bay Mills Community College, please let me know because I'd be more than happy to sit down and mentor you and show you the steps that you need to take in order to gain a position like this. So on.

Duane Bedell [00:15:43]: But, you know, the biggest dream is just to be a tribal college that is well known throughout the state of Michigan and the nation for our program that we have here. And for folks to know how good of a staff that I have here. My team, like I said before, is phenomenal and we couldn't be where we're at today without our team.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: You've mentioned the theme of mentorship a couple of times in our conversation is kind of a key to your success and hearing you moving others along the path pathway as well. What does mentorship look like at BMCC?

Duane Bedell [00:16:13]: Really what mentorship looks like to BMCC, particularly, and I'm gonna use an example here with a couple of staff members that that I've been working with. And these are our our team members who graduated from Bay Mills Community College and had come on as employees at Bay Mills Community College. But just to watch them gain the confidence to earn a bachelor's degree, then move on to a master's degree. And the hope is now is to get them to a doctorial degree. But mentorship is just having just the day to day conversations, with them. And to me, it's not all business. I take the time to learn a little bit about their family life, take the time to learn about their hobbies, and then I find ways to incorporate those into the conversation when we start talking about leadership positions or the next steps in their studies just to see, you know, what can I do to really help them not be afraid to take that next step? And I'm as transparent as you can be. I would tell you the ups and downs of this position or any other position that I led, but I'm also will also find a way to find a way to strategize to overcome that obstacle as well.

Duane Bedell [00:17:10]: To me, that's what mentorship is is what it's all about. So I

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:17]: think a lot of professionals look at that presidential position as an ultimate aspiration. Not all all of us are going to get there or not all of us want to get there. That's all okay. What advice do you have for those on the pathway to eventually sit in a seat like yours?

Duane Bedell [00:17:32]: The advice I have is to not be afraid to take chances or take any risk and not be afraid to push yourself. There's going to be times where you are gonna have to sacrifice a lot in order to obtain the knowledge and taking the skills that you need to be successful in this position. But most important is to have an open mind. I've learned that over the last 5 years being in this role is that you have to have an open mind to everything, and that you also have to be able to have those conversations with your teams because you also have to realize that you're not the one that knows everything. That's when you bring your team, but you have to, rely on the feedback that you get from your teammates as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:10]: There seems to be, as of late, more and more pressure on college presidents to be increasingly infallible, which we know is ultimately an impossibility. How do you manage the pressure of that type of senior leadership along with the realities that, you know, you're a human being doing the best they can on a day to day?

Duane Bedell [00:18:27]: You know, one of the things that I've learned a long time ago was how to balance my family life, my professional life, and my academic life. And I think that's how I became really able to manage the whole process of education, I guess you could say. So how to manage writing a paper or going through the school work to earn a doctor's degree, but most importantly is just being able to turn off the phone, I guess you can say, or turn off the emails I had a specific time to spend time with your family. I know that sometimes it could be difficult, but I think one of the things that I've learned about working here at Bay Mills Community College, and I've seen it transpire across the entire campus, is that it's okay to turn off your emails, it's okay to turn off your phone, and it's okay to go outdoors, take a walk outside, get your breath, and just focus on you and your family. And I think just relying on the support systems that that I have and the, colleagues that I have here, and just by not being a I guess I'm I'm not a high stress person, so it takes a lot to really stress me out, which really, really happens. But just being able just to step away, take a deep breath, and come back in and go back at it again, I think that's the way that it's going to lead you to success and prevent burnout.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:37]: What a gift to be able to give to your team as well to say, you know, it's okay. As the president, I'm turning off my email. As the president, I'm taking time for my family. And that I absolutely know is something that is felt by everyone who works with you.

Duane Bedell [00:19:51]: So one of the examples that I I have learned, and I have told these folks across the nation because working with other tribal colleges and other tribal college leaders, is that all of my colleagues nationwide, they know not to contact me after 7 PM Eastern Standard Time because they know I will not answer. I will not look at my phone until the next morning. But if they send an email at 6:55 PM, I can respond real quick, and then I'll turn my phone off. But just send them that message out and send them that that those are the times that I will not respond because it's my personal time, it's my family time. And if you make that a priority, I think that's really gonna help be you be successful as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:24]: Little shift of topic here. I'm wondering if you can share if there's anything you wish that mainstream university administrators knew about tribal colleges and the amazing work that you are all doing.

Duane Bedell [00:20:35]: I think it's important for mainstream institutions that are near tribal communities to take the time to learn about the customs. And I'm gonna share an example here. This individual was a a student here, but he was very soft spoken, very shy. And oftentimes, he did not look folks directly in the eyes as they were speaking. And I remember he came back to campus one day and asked how he could or if I had any advice for him because his professor had essentially told him that he was going to get kicked out of class for not maintaining eye contact and being disrespectful. After learning a little bit about the Ojibwe culture, it's in fact, customary for a lot of folks not to make eye contact, when they're having direct conversations like that. And just shedding a little bit of light on that, I think, can help, a long ways or help mainstream institutions understand their Native American population as well. The other aspect to it is to just really sit down and meet them where they're at.

Duane Bedell [00:21:30]: And I understand that mainstream institutions are a lot larger than tribal colleges. So it's almost it's it's very difficult to really get to know the student, for who they are and so on. But just be able to find someone to to make that key contact with the native American students, I think it's gonna help with the success rates.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:46]: A lot of mainstream institutions are hiring tribal relations positions or creating indigenous American student centers, as the person who is hopefully working with your students to transfer into those institutions, what are you hoping for from the partnership on the other side?

Duane Bedell [00:22:01]: Just to have a a really good close relationship and an understanding relationship with the student that's transferring in. Again, it's all about meeting that person, and and that's the common theme here. It's just meeting them, as a person and meeting them where they're at. And it and I think that's gonna go a long, long ways.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:16]: What about from administrator to administrator?

Duane Bedell [00:22:19]: From administrator to administrator, just really take the time to learn about the Native American communities that you serve. And the same thing goes for me. I always try to take the time to learn about their institution, about their culture, and most importantly, you know, just to learn about the campus environment and how their institution works as well. I think it's very important for myself to learn as much as I can about the mainstream institutions as mainstream institutions should learn about tribal colleges and tribal students as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]: Dwayne, I'm going to go ahead and move us into our theme questions for the season. Again, we've been focusing on the past, present, and future of student affairs in higher education. So I'm gonna ask you 3 questions, 1 each on the past, present, and future. So with the past, what's one component of the history of higher education or student affairs that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of?

Duane Bedell [00:23:11]: I think that we should just carry forward the mission of making sure that your students have the resources to be successful. The student services in general, that's their main goal, is to make sure that their students are comfortable and that their students have their resources to be successful. If that were to go away, I think our students would be lost. So I I think we certainly need to keep that there. In the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs in higher education right now that's going well

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:32]: for us? What's higher education right now that's going well for us? What's really going well for us is that there is more communication across the institutions, that we're learning a

Duane Bedell [00:23:37]: little bit more about each other. But most importantly, the data collection is getting getting a lot better. So we can use the data and actually turn that data to make key decisions on better ways to support our students. And I think all institutions are doing a great job at that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:56]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing to thrive towards a future?

Duane Bedell [00:24:02]: I think that in the future that they just really need to find ways to meet the current demands of society. As we know, society shifts and it shifts very quickly. And being able to keep up with those demands and the latest trends will help our student services meet our students where they should meet them.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:20]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton happening. And there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. I've talked about this before, but one of the great resources that you have available to yourself atnaspa.org is the Leadership Exchange magazine. The Leadership Exchange is a the Leadership Exchange is a magazine that comes out a number of times per year and offers you an opportunity to be able to identify solutions for those of us in Student Affairs Management. Now, if you're not in a manager role, but have an interest in learning more about ways in which individuals think about management in Student Affairs, this resource is available to all NASPA members. One article that came out in the most recent article in the most recent Leadership Exchange, which came out in fall 2024, talks about transforming student affairs professional preparation. In this article, you get a great insight into what is happening currently in student affairs professional programs and what many programs are starting to do to look at preparation in a whole new way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Whether you have a student affairs professional program on your campus or not, it is a fascinating read, especially for all of us that have gone through professional programs or are in the midst of going through a professional preparation program currently. Highly encourage you to check out that article. As I said, it is a free resource to all NASPA members. So highly encourage you to go and check it out for yourself. One of the other things that I'm going to talk about today is getting involved in NASPA. Each of you have an opportunity to be able to give back to the professional Association that you've been a part of for quite some time. NASPA is always looking for individuals that are willing to give their time and talent to providing insight into knowledge communities, conferences, and more to be able to find out about opportunities that currently exist. It's really easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:31]: All you do is go to the NASPA website, click on volunteer. And on that page, you're going to see a number of different ways in which you can volunteer and you can identify ways in which you can get involved. Basically, the easiest way to do that is to log in right through that page. You'll see that you can log into your NASPA profile. When you log in to your NASPA profile, you can then go into volunteer central. And in volunteer central, you'll see any and all opportunities that exist. I will tell you, as someone that's been involved with the knowledge communities for a very long time, there are a ton of opportunities to get involved. So I highly encourage you to find some way to give back to the association, to help the association to be stronger and be able to do what you can to be able to take even more out of your professional association membership.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:29]: Speaking of knowledge communities, if you're not involved in a knowledge community, I highly encourage you to check out all of the different knowledge communities that exist. This is a great time of year to go into your NASPA profile and update your interests. You can go in and you can sign up to be a part of any of the knowledge communities just by going in and updating your preferences. By going in and updating those, you'll start to hear from the different knowledge communities and see what's happening in those knowledge communities. You can also go on to the NASPA website, go under communities, and then click on knowledge communities and see the over 30 knowledge communities that exist. Well, what are knowledge communities? Well, knowledge communities are small communities based on functional areas and identities that allow you to find your place within NASPA. The k the knowledge communities are what we call KCs, serve as content experts and communities of support for you as you are going through your own professional journey. I know that personally, I've been involved with knowledge communities for quite a long time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]: There are definitely knowledge communities that I identify with and I pull a lot from because of the work that I do on a daily basis. And I know that you can find that as well. You can be as involved as you want to be, or you can just be collecting the information. But getting involved is the first step. Getting involved in at least being a part of the knowledge community so that you can find out more is the right way to be able to help you to stay connected. So I highly encourage you to take advantage of these knowledge communities. Learn more about them, find out more, and get involved in some way to be able to increase your own ability to know about what's happening on other campuses, but also in the profession as well. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:22]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Chris, we always appreciate you keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Appreciate you creating our NASPA world segments each and every week. And Duane, we have now reached our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to rock?

Duane Bedell [00:30:59]: I am. Let's do this.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:01]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Duane Bedell [00:31:06]: That's an easy one because I just did this. So astronaut, in the ocean, Metallica, wherever I may roam, and M and M lose yourself.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:14]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Duane Bedell [00:31:17]: I wanted to be a secret service agent.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:19]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Duane Bedell [00:31:22]: The previous president here, Michael Parrish.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:24]: Number 4, your essential higher education read.

Duane Bedell [00:31:28]: Oh, that is tough to narrow. I have so many, and then so many titles are going through my head. I can't answer that. I got too many titles.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:34]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Duane Bedell [00:31:37]: Yellowstone.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:38]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Duane Bedell [00:31:42]: I actually haven't taken time to listen to too many podcasts in the in the last year. The last one that I listened to was the one that was featured at University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:49]: That's a a shout out for, doctor Chris Lewis, our producer and audio engineer on this show. He hosts that show. And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Duane Bedell [00:31:59]: You know, I just like to give a shout out to all teachers, all administrators that are out there. You guys are doing a phenomenal job, and then I can't wait to see what our future leaders are gonna look like.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:08]: Dwayne, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today and to get to learn from your perspective about what it's like to be leading as a college president at a tribal college in 2024. And I'm sure others would like to learn from you as well. So if they would like to reach out to you after we air, how can they find you?

Duane Bedell [00:32:23]: They can find me on LinkedIn LinkedIn just by typing my name in, or they can email me at dapadel, which is [email protected].

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:32]: Duane, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Duane Bedell [00:32:35]: Well, thank you for having me on this podcast. I certainly appreciated it, and I look forward to hearing more podcasts.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:46]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:28]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on NASPA's SA Voices from the Field Podcastr Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Marcus R. Langford, the Associate Vice Provost for the Center for Learner Diversity and Inclusion at Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU). Marcus shares his thoughts on leadership, diversity, and balancing a demanding career with family life.

The Path to Leadership and Diversity at OHSU

Marcus R. Langford's journey in higher education began with a personal challenge—an arduous college transition—leading him to become an orientation leader. This pivotal moment guided his career, allowing him to work in various capacities across the country, from Oregon State University to the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash. Currently, at OHSU, Marcus spearheads initiatives to foster diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Throughout this episode, Marcus emphasizes the significance of collaborating with intelligent, talented individuals. He credits his ability to identify patterns, navigate complex systems, and engage effectively with people as critical to his professional evolution from a specialist to a generalist—a valuable skillset for anyone in leadership roles within student affairs.

Doctoral Research: Black Male Engagement and Placemaking

Marcus is pursuing a Doctorate of Education (EdD) with his dissertation titled "Making Their Own Way, A Qualitative Case Study of Black Male Engagement and Placemaking at the University of Oregon." His research shines a light on the engagement and sense of belonging of Black male students at predominantly white institutions (PWIs).

Drawing from personal experiences, Marcus highlights the challenges Black students face in these environments. His findings reveal that while Black male students are actively involved across campus, they often find meaningful engagement in culturally relevant spaces like the National Association For Black Journalists and the Black Cultural Center. Unfortunately, these cultural groups sometimes face institutional barriers, such as restrictive catering policies that hinder the authenticity of cultural events.

The Need for Institutional Support and Recognition

Marcus's research underscores the need for institutions to recognize and support diverse forms of student engagement. Traditional engagement opportunities, such as student government, are sometimes less appealing to Black male students due to microaggressions and dismissive behaviors. Institutions must reconsider how their policies may inhibit students from expressing their authentic selves and engaging fully.

A practical example Marcus discusses involves the challenges cultural groups face when trying to work with external vendors to provide authentic cultural food. Institutional catering policies often prevent these collaborations, leading to unsatisfactory event experiences that can affect student engagement and sense of belonging.

Updating Theories and Practices in Student Affairs

Marcus advocates for a shift away from the overreliance on classical student development theories that may limit students' experiences. He suggests that institutions should expand the scope of what is considered valuable student engagement, integrating culturally relevant activities alongside traditional ones. Additionally, ongoing education for faculty and staff is crucial to understanding the evolving needs of students, which differ significantly from previous generations.

Mentorship and Professional Growth

Mentorship plays a vital role in Marcus's career. Larry Roper, a seasoned professional in student affairs, has been instrumental in guiding Marcus, emphasizing the importance of not needing to be the smartest person in the room and the value of continuous learning. Marcus appreciates the influence of younger professionals in challenging historical practices and pushing for necessary changes within the field.

Balancing Professional and Personal Life

One of the most profound insights Marcus shares is the importance of distinguishing between professional and personal commitments. He stresses that while he likes his job, he loves his family, and it's essential to prioritize personal relationships. This perspective, influenced by his mentor Larry Roper, reminds us that systems are designed to function without individuals, so self-care and personal well-being should not be neglected.

Conclusion: Moving Forward with Inclusive Practices

As Marcus R. Langford continues to lead efforts in diversity and inclusion at OHSU, his insights remind us of the ongoing need for institutions to adapt and support the dynamic needs of their students. By reevaluating policies, expanding engagement opportunities, and providing continuous education for faculty and staff, higher education can create more inclusive and supportive environments for all students.

Stay tuned for more enlightening discussions on "Dads with Daughters," and be sure to catch future episodes where we continue to explore the intersections of personal and professional lives in meaningful ways.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices, I am overjoyed to be joined by Marcus R Langford, who is currently serving as associate vice provost for the center for learner and diversity and inclusion at Oregon Health and Science University or OHSU. In this role, Marcus is responsible for providing leadership and vision for the center to advance OHSU's learner centered diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging goals. This work includes providing educational engagement opportunities for learners, as well as working with institutional partners to envision and achieve a collaborative cohesive approach to the enhanced recruitment and retention of diverse learners. In this role, Marcus is fortunate to work with and provide leadership to a talented team of individuals committed to cultivating relationships, creating educational solutions, and interrogating policies, practices, and procedures in partnership with various institutional partners and constituents to build institutional capacity for transformative change. Prior to his OHSU work, Marcus was at the University of Oregon where he most recently served as dean of students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]: Prior to U of O, over the span of 20 years in higher ed, he served in several roles with increasing levels of scope and responsibility at a variety of institutional types. Marcus has professional experience in a variety of functional areas, including academic intervention and advising, campus programming, crisis management, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, leadership development, multicultural affairs, orientation and new student programs, student involvement, and veteran student affairs. I also wanna take a moment to pre congratulate Marcus on his future defense of his doctoral dissertation. I'm so excited to welcome Marcus Langford to the show. So good to see you, Marcus.

Marcus R. Langford [00:01:57]: Hey there. How are you? Glad to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:59]: So for our listeners, Marcus and I have known each other for a very long time at this point. The very first time we met, Marcus was working at Oregon State in orientation and retention, and I was earning my master's. So we have been kind of at the same institution on and off a couple of times now. And so I'm so excited for our listeners to get to know you through your expertise and your research and and where you sit now. We always like to open our episodes by asking our guests how you got to your current seat and kind of teeing up from that journey out of orientation. How did you land into an AVP of DEIB space?

Marcus R. Langford [00:02:37]: Glad to see you and talk to you again. Always fun to chop it up with you a little bit, and thank you for, giving me this opportunity. So whenever I talk a little bit about how I got somewhere, for me, I always have to start at the beginning. And so for me, starting at the beginning, you know, ensures that I let folks know that I am a Southerner by birth. That's a big part of who I am and how I see the world and how I approach the world. So I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, but I spent the vast majority of my growing up in Cincinnati, Ohio. But even though I spent more time in Cincinnati than in Birmingham, I still would say I'm a Southerner by birth. And so the vast majority of my growing up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I'm a high school English teacher by training.

Marcus R. Langford [00:03:19]: So my undergraduate degrees are in English Education and African American History. But how I got into the field was kind of typical or classic, and so much as I did not have the greatest transition to college. So much so that about midway through my 1st year, I vividly remember this like it happened yesterday, I called my mom and said, mom, I just don't know if this is for me. I think I want to drop out and come home. And in her infinite wisdom, my mom said, absolutely not. She said, dropping out is not an option. She said, you know, your your dad and I and other folks have invested too much time, energy, and effort into you, and you are more than capable enough to be successful in this endeavor. So she said, do one more thing, join one more club, one more organization.

Marcus R. Langford [00:04:05]: And if that doesn't work, at the end of the year, we can revisit this conversation, but we'll talk about where you will transfer to, not the fact that you're gonna drop out. And so like any good Southern boy, I I did what my mom told me to do. And that one thing that I elected to do was to actually apply to be an orientation leader. And part of the reason why I did that is because even though I had a difficult transition or a rough transition, the one person that I actually was able to make some semblance of a connection with throughout my first the midway through my 1st semester and through my 1st semester was my orientation leader. I still remember her name, Amy Mandler. And so in typical orientation fashion, at the end of my orientation experience, she gave her email, and her phone number and said, if something comes up during the year, give me a call, and I'll see what I can do to help. And so even though I had a, again, a difficult transition, that was the one person who was somewhat of a lifeline for me. And so that one more thing that my mom compelled me to do actually was being an orientation leader.

Marcus R. Langford [00:05:08]: But I still tell folks, even though Amy was a really, really great resource to me, I went into that experience with these nefarious purposes in my mind. Because in my mind, I was a black student at a predominantly white institution. And in my mind, I was gonna be the orientation leader that really kind of kept it real. But as you can imagine, for whatever reason, miraculously, I was selected. And as you can imagine, I had a fantastic experience. My experience as an fantastic experience. My experience as an orientation leader connected me to the institution, connected me to faculty, staff, and even other students in ways that I previously had not been connected. And so that really experience really was a pivotal point in my educational experience.

Marcus R. Langford [00:05:47]: Not only did it change the trajectory of my educational experience as a student, but it ultimately ended up changing the trajectory of my life. So long story short, I ended up graduating and I set up my high school English teacher. So I taught high school English for a little while, but elected to go back to graduate school to get a master's degree. And I went back to Miami University where I did my undergraduate work, I got a master's degree in higher ed. And at that point, transitioned to higher education where I got my first job in orientation and new student programs at Oregon State University. So I spent about 5, almost 6 years at Oregon State working with orientation and new student programs. So summer orientation visit programs, the 1st year experience class before ultimately, transitioning from there to Rhodes College, which is a small private liberal arts college in Memphis, Tennessee. I ended up going to Rhodes to help them build a traditional summer orientation program.

Marcus R. Langford [00:06:45]: So at the time, Rhodes was a small school, and they operated on the methodology that a lot of small schools did where they brought everyone to campus about a week or two before classes started. But what they found was that they were experiencing a high degree of summer melt because their students, all of their friends were going to orientation throughout the summer, coming home with schedules, coming home with IDs, coming home with shirts. And when you're a small institution that has a incoming class of a couple of 100, if you end up losing 5, 10, 20 students, that's a pretty big deal. So at Rose, I was hired to build a summer orientation program. So we backed up their fall orientation to a more traditional 2 day summer orientation program. So I spent some time doing that, but then at a small school, as many folks may know, you end up doing everything. And so that's where I started to get some more experience in academic intervention and crisis work and academic advising before ultimately leaving Rhodes to go back to Ohio where I grew up, to spend time working at the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash, which was a regional college of the University of Cincinnati. And for all intents and purposes, I was the chief student affairs for that regional campus.

Marcus R. Langford [00:07:57]: And so everything student affairs related at some point kind of rolled up to me, and so that was career services, student government, orientation, multicultural affairs, Hispanic and Latino affairs. And so that's really where the breadth of my experience, started to, expand, a little bit, and was there for about six and a half, maybe 7 years before being recruited to come back to Oregon, to work at the University of Oregon. So I spent 7 years at the University of Oregon as an assistant dean, an associate dean, and then ultimately the dean of student. And that's where we came that's where we came back together. So that's where our paths cross stuck in. Spent 7 years there. Had a really, really good and rich experience there before ultimately making the transition to OHSU, which is where I am right now as the associate vice provost for the Center For Learner Diversity and Inclusion. And so I've end this role in Portland for just about 3 months now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]: And when we think about your journey in student affairs, I think you have a rich diversity of geographical experience in the field. We see folks kind of do both. Right? Either that are very anchored to one particular region or folks that kind of you and I both have gone have gone all over the country in kind of service of the profession. So I'd love to hear from you on as you've evolved in the past, present, and future of your career, how has that geographical space made a difference or informed the way that you're practicing in the field?

Marcus R. Langford [00:09:24]: That's a very good question, and I'll actually add another layer to that. And so I think my geographical experience has had an effector, and I also would add a layer of institutional type. And so what I would say is when I look back over the balance of my career, I think the fact that I've worked in multiple states and locations and the fact that I've worked at multiple institution types, that has served to strengthen me as a professional. You know, when I think about, you know, my experience at Oregon State University, which was a large land, sea, sun, space, air grant institute spa space, institution. There are skills and things that I had to think about there relative to connecting with students and the mission of the institution that in some ways did, and in some ways did not transfer to my experience at Rhodes College, which was a private, liberal arts focused, 1200 student institution. And so they were yes, there are oftentimes some through lines that exist when we're talking about working with and supporting college students. But some of the things that my students at Rhodes were dealing with were qualitatively different than, you know, some of the things that my students at Oregon State were dealing with or some of my students who, were at a commuter school, like the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash College. And so again, for me, whether it be institution type or geographical in nature, there were just aspects of that that I had to think about differently.

Marcus R. Langford [00:10:53]: And for me, I think that served, to enhance me as a professional. Again, it it it forced me to think about what I did, how I did it, and why I did it in different contexts. And so I had to be adaptable and make adjustments, based on where I was. It wasn't necessarily the ability, again, to pick up how I do what I do and just drop it part for parcel from one place to another. So yeah. So both living in a variety of different places and working at a number of different institutional types, without a doubt, has served to strengthen me as a professional in my perspective.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:28]: You also went from being a specialist in orientation to moving into a more generalist perspective as your career grew and you kind of moved upward in the hierarchies of student affairs. How did you manage to kind of acquire those skills as you went along that really served you from going, okay, I am a person who is implementing this program to now I'm a person designing this program to now I'm a person who has this program plus a couple of others. And then all of a sudden, you're holding all of the cards for a dean of students area. And at the University of Oregon, it's probably one of the larger dean of students areas I've seen at an r one d one. I think a lot of times, modern deans of students offices are really in the core of conduct and care, and maybe there are some other functions. But the University of Oregon has about half of the entire student affairs portfolio in the office of the dean of students. So talk to us a little bit about how you made that transition from your past experiences to the present of holding 13 departments.

Marcus R. Langford [00:12:26]: You're spot on. The dean of students portfolio at Oregon at the University of Oregon was and is rather large, and it was a lift. I I think one of the things that made that doable is the fact that there were some very, very talented folks there doing some good work. And so I was able to lean into the expertise and the experience of folks that surrounded me. But I'll come back to that because I think that's one of the reasons that I can say that I think I was able to serve in that role relatively well. But going back to your original question, yeah, so, again, I started, you know, as a specialist with within the context of orientation and new student programs. And I actually tell folks that of all functional areas, I actually think orientation is a very, very good one that can prepare you to advance. And one of the reasons why I say that is there are actually a couple of reasons.

Marcus R. Langford [00:13:16]: One is orientation is one of those functional areas where and I know you can say this about others, but you have to know a little bit about everything. And so when you think about kind of understanding the ins and out of an institution, and when you think about being able to communicate and needing to communicate the variety of what an institution has to offer to an incoming student to ensure that they can cultivate a pretty solid foundation in order to be successful, that translated to me as a professional. And so, again, as someone who started as an orientation professional, it was incumbent upon me to know a little bit about pretty much every facet of the institution. And so I think that's actually one of the things that I tell folks all the time that was a huge benefit to me starting out in orientation. The other thing associated with the functional area of orientation that I actually think served me well over the course of my career is this notion of being responsible and in a way needing to manage people, places, and things that aren't necessarily yours. And so again, as an orientation professional, it's imperative that, again, you marshal the troops that you don't necessarily supervise. It's important that you kind of manage and coordinate space that you don't necessarily own. It's important that you manage people in terms of how much time they get or not.

Marcus R. Langford [00:14:42]: Because if everybody wants 5 minutes, if you give 5 minutes to 10 people, 15 people, those 5 minutes actually start to stack up. And so you need to be judicious about whether or not folks can get 5 minutes or not. And so I think those are all things that, although it was coming in a, specialist way, they actually prepared me to be a generalist and as I advanced my career. So those are just some of the things that I think in terms of skills that I got from orientation that actually were truly beneficial to me later. But in terms of transitioning from something that I know a lot about and have a lot of experience to starting to collect and be responsible for a widening portfolio. Yeah. That that was a transition. And I I think part of, for me, what allowed me to do that is that I place a priority on listening.

Marcus R. Langford [00:15:37]: And so as I started to accrue some of these areas that I did not have tangible or concrete experience with, I recognized that it was important for me to listen, to the folks who were doing this work. And then I also recognized, in addition to listening, that it was important for me to invest time, energy, and effort to learn as much as I could about these areas. Now I recognized again that I wasn't necessarily going to be a content area expert. That's what those staff were for, but it was imperative that I had a general sense and a general understanding of the work that they did. And so, again, listening and this notion of being willing and or able to be a lifelong learner are things that allowed me to transition, I think, rather seamlessly into this role of being a generalist as I, continue to advance in my career. And I think one of the last things that I'll say is how did I manage this, and this is the part where I'll come back to u of o. One of the best pieces of advice that I got from a former supervisor who's now a mentor of mine is that she often talked about how one of the things that benefited her was this recognition that she needed to divorce herself from this notion that she had to be the smartest person in the room at all times and that she had to have the answer every time right then. And so when I think about my experience at U of O in managing a rather large portfolio, with a lot of functional areas and quite frankly a lot of things that I didn't have a high level of personal knowledge with.

Marcus R. Langford [00:17:13]: Part of that was leaning into that I don't necessarily have to be the smartest person in the room all the time, and so that was really hiring and surrounding myself with smart and talented people and allowing them to do what they were hired to do. Now I will say, I think one of the things that, you know, again, that allowed me to be successful in that is what I mentioned earlier around learning and asking questions, and leaning into their expertise. But I also think I have the ability to see patterns. I have the ability to understand and navigate systems, and I think I also have the ability to work with people. And so for me, those were 3 of the things that allowed me to transition from a specialist to a generalist, and I think be relatively successful in that transition.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:12]: Listening systems and people, those are Marcus's magic 3 for achieving that AVP title. Now, Marcus, you're you're doing all of this while you also had decided to become a PhD student or doctoral student. And I remember sitting with you as you were starting your journey, and I I passed you a post it that said, hashtag doctor Langford 2025 or sooner. And I believe we are on track for that. And so I wanna say huge congratulations to you for getting that first full one through 5 submitted for review. That is an amazing step. I remember the feeling for myself, all of a sudden, a level of guilt just kind of lifted off my shoulders that all of a sudden the free time I would take for myself was not weighted that I wasn't writing or reading at the same time. But I'm I'm really excited to learn more about your research and your findings because I think it fits well with our past, present, and future theme.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:03]: And also really aligns with your journey and your story as a person who was seeking to find belonging in higher education at the start. So why don't you tell us the, at least, tentative title for your dissertation?

Marcus R. Langford [00:19:15]: Well, thank you. Again, I do remember that conversation, and I do remember that post that I just moved into believe it or not, I actually still have it. I just moved into a new office, but I have a bunch of things that folks have given me over the time. And so since I'm still in the new offices and I just moved from Eugene to Portland, it's in a box in my garage with the rest of my office stuff, but I actually do still have that posted in a couple of other things that folks have given me. Yeah. So my doctoral work. So I am in the process of getting a doctorate of education, so an EdD, and the title of my study is Making Their Own Way, A Qualitative Case Study of Black Male Engagement and Placemaking at the University of Oregon. And so I would say, generally speaking, I've always been intrigued by the experiences of Black male students at predominantly white institutions.

Marcus R. Langford [00:20:04]: And I'm very clear in a couple of places in my dissertation of practice that my interest in this is deeply rooted in my own experience as a Black male student at a predominantly white institution. And so my undergraduate and graduate institution, fantastic school in the Midwest when I was there, about 16,000 permanent students, but the institution exists in a town that had, at the time when I was there, about 9,000 permanent residents. When I was there, the number of black students so when you look at 16,000 students, the number of black students that we had never exceeded 500, and I think that's probably being even that is a little bit on the high side. And so, again, I had these material experiences around what it means to be a black male student at a predominantly white institution. And so first and foremost, again, I've always been interested in thinking about the experiences of those folks. And further, I would also say that while I've worked at a number of institutions, I've also worked for a number of predominantly white institutions. And part of my rationale in doing that is because I decided that it was really important for me over the course of my career to do what I can to be for other folks what someone was to me. And so it wasn't an accident when I was looking for jobs, you know, that I ended up settling at Oregon State for a little while.

Marcus R. Langford [00:21:28]: It wasn't an accident that I ended up back at the University of Oregon. It wasn't an accident that even when I went to a small school experience, it was Rose College, which is, even though it was only 1200 students, overwhelmingly white, even though it exists within Memphis, Tennessee, which is a relatively diverse city. And so for me, again, thinking about the experiences of those folks is something that has always been important to me. A little bit more about the the the study. So one of the things that I've, been much very much interested in is this notion of blackmail engagement at predominantly white institutions. And so I talk a little bit about this over the course of my study, but I've always been interested in engagement. So when we think about involvement and engagement within the context of institutions, we clearly know that being involved and being engaged makes a material difference. And so students who are involved, engaged, generally speaking, they tend to graduate at higher rates.

Marcus R. Langford [00:22:26]: They tend to have higher grades. They tend to have a higher level of satisfaction with their collegiate experience. So involvement and engagement matters. But one of the things that I talk about in my literature review is that there has been a fair amount of critique when we think about what involvement and engagement means and looks like. And so when we think about some of the foundational studies that we build our knowledge in higher education on, to put it plainly, that foundational knowledge, generally speaking, is built by white men who've studied younger white men. And while there's not inherently anything wrong with that, I think what these critiques have shown is that as we've built our knowledge on this, that has served to ensure that we don't necessarily recognize and understand the full range of what these things can and should be, and we don't recognize the full range of the experiences that some folks have. And so what even prompted this study was that I would have conversations with some of my colleagues and some executive level administrators, and questions would be asked, why aren't Black male students engaged on campus? Or why aren't Black male students taking advantage of some of these same opportunities that other folks are? Why aren't Black male students kind of involved in student government? Or why aren't Black male students, you know, kind of joining our historically white fraternities? Or things like that. And what I thought then, and what was born out of my study is that while well meaning, that type of perspective flattens the range of ways that black males choose to be involved and engaged on their campuses, and it also ultimately serves to release the institution from their inherent responsibility to be mindful of why folks are making some of the decisions that they're making about where they choose to invest their time, energy, and effort.

Marcus R. Langford [00:24:28]: And so actually what I found is that black male students were involved across, the landscape of the institution, but there are choices that they made about where to invest the majority of their time. And so things like culturally relevant experiences was very important. And so, you know, they talked a lot about things like the National Association For Black Journalists. They talked a lot about the Black Male Alliance. They talked a lot about the Multicultural Center. They talked a lot about the Black Cultural Center. But in addition to those things, we also did have students who did research. We had students who were in IFC fraternities.

Marcus R. Langford [00:25:08]: And so they did do a range of these things. But, again, I think it was really being mindful of the fact that they were making some particular choices based on how they would experience something. And that's actually one of the things that I wanted to bring to the forefront through this study. So I conducted 3 focus groups and a couple of follow-up interviews. And, again, I found that students are engaged across the landscape of the institution. But what they also were looking for was the institution to recognize that through the application of policies, practices, and procedures, that there were ways that the institution could better support the engagement and placemaking, you know, of these students. And so some of the things, again, that institutions don't think about, we talk about policies, practices, and procedures. A very trite well, it sounds like a trite example, but it's really meaningful is if you go to any PWI, one of the things that you typically will find is this back and forth with cultural groups and campus catering.

Marcus R. Langford [00:26:08]: So what will happen and, again, it sounds trite, but walk with me. So what will happen is student groups, cultural groups, will often want to work with outside vendors around cultural food, but then you often have institutional catering and food services saying, well, we can do that. And students will say, well, yeah, you can, but, like, the food is not gonna be that great it's not gonna be that great or authentic or representative or correct or, you know, we wanna support this business in the community, and the waiver will be denied. Catering will do it. And in many instances, the food is not gonna be good because it's not prepared by someone of the culture, and the event will happen, but, like, students are like, well, this food really wasn't that great. And so, again, as an institution, those are the types of things that we don't think about. Typically, some of our institution folks within our institutions don't think about those as, quote, unquote, big deals, but those are the types of experiences that when taken in total really start to create issues where students, again, around have the ability to be engaged and and kind of make place for themselves. Another thing that came up was their decision making around how they would experience an organization or an opportunity.

Marcus R. Langford [00:27:23]: So going back to this notion of, well, why aren't students in student gov these students joining student government, or why aren't these students joining what we would define as these classical engagement opportunities? The students would then say, well, why do I wanna subject myself to an experience where I know I'm gonna have to deal with microaggressions on a daily basis? Like, why do I wanna join this organization where I know folks are gonna say off the wall things to me? Why do I wanna join this organization where when I joined the concert board and I say, we want to bring this person, I'm automatically gonna get shot down because that's not the type of concert or music, you know, that folks want to do. And so students, again, are making decisions about where to invest their time, energy, and effort about how they will experience things. And I think that's another piece that sometimes folks in institutions don't really think about. They don't think about how students will experience these opportunities. And in not thinking about that, it releases them from, again, their inherent obligation to ask some pretty difficult questions of themselves of how are we inhibiting, you know, our students from being their true and full selves through the application of our policies, but then also not addressing what students are telling us about some of the problematic things that they experience. So, yeah, so that's a little bit.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:44]: It's a good reminder that our institutions are always microcosms of the things that are happening in larger society, especially because institutions are designed originally with specific intent on who they were serving, and those vestiges have definitely carried through the present day in in student affairs. And one of the things I most appreciate about the research that you're doing now is I think our master's programs for a good couple of decades now have done a good job of acknowledging who student development theory was written by and for. But it stops there, and it doesn't go the next step of saying, okay, well, now where are we where are we conducting research? Who are the people that are participating in our research? And how are we making sure that those perspectives are more well rounded. And so I appreciate that your study is filling a gap in the literature, but how can we change our systems to be more inclusive of the traditionally aged black male experience? That's not out there as boldly as it should be, especially given where we are in time. And there's also then an opportunity, I think, I'm I'm hearing, like, future publication for you on on how this will get out there. And I appreciate the framing too of saying, you know, the institution is not absolved of its responsibility. And we both have a mentor who has said in the past, you know, institutions are just buildings and people. And so because of that, that means we are empowered to change those institutions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]: Given that and given your research, can you give us maybe 1 or 2 recommendations for practice?

Marcus R. Langford [00:30:08]: Great question. So one, I think I would say it's important that we adequately invest in these organizations and these structures that we design. And so, again, I'll lean into my study participants. And so one of the things that they talked about was, so there is a black cultural center, and there is a multicultural center. But oftentimes, what happens is institutions will have or build these things to say, look, we have this, but what the students talked about is, well, I appreciate that we have this thing, but can we have a conversation about how it's on the edge of campus? Like, what does that mean? Can we have a conversation about how you built this building and there's only one person, you know, who's assigned to manage this building? So can that person get some help? They talked about things like having cultural organizations, but the rules under which they have to follow through student government and all these other things are often very, very difficult because of their relative size. And so, again, I I think one recommendation is to really think about whether or not we as institutions are adequately investing, whether that be human capital or fiscal capital, in these organizations and entities that are designed to support these folks. So I think that's one thing. I think another, recommendation is that I think it's really important to have some sense of ongoing, you know, kind of education and or training for faculty and staff.

Marcus R. Langford [00:31:46]: One of the things that I spent a lot of time talking about in my role as the dean of students is trying to help faculty and staff and administrators, I'll just say administrators, helping administrators and the people who comprise institutions, helping them to understand and reconcile that who you were as a student and the student experience is qualitatively different than who students are right now and what the student experience is right now. So again, one recommendation is some, you know, training or development for these folks to help them understand, again, that who students are and what the student experience is right now is qualitatively different than who they were as students. And so it's really important that we think about whether or not the folks who run these institutions have a keen and clear understanding of what student needs are today. And so some of that can be accomplished through training and development. And then I think the last thing that I would say is so Sean Harper talks about culturally relevant engagement practices. And so, again, I think part of this is ensuring that the experiences and the opportunities that we offer to students are culturally relevant and accessible. And so, again, I think oftentimes we have a canon in terms of, like, what acceptable or good experiences and opportunities are, and so I'm an English major, and so I think it's part of what our responsibility is is to expand the canon of what we see as good and acceptable. And so again, there are many ways that, you know, black male students were and are engaged on campus.

Marcus R. Langford [00:33:30]: And so some of that is around spending time with folks playing Madden, or some of that is, you know, being connected to each other off campus. And so I think it's incumbent upon us as institutions to recognize the inherent value, those types of things as well, and say and not necessarily get to this point of saying that, well, those are automatically less than joining student government, or that's automatically less than joining a fraternity, or whatever it is that we do. So, yeah, so I I I think those are a couple of things that in my mind were good pieces to consider, in terms of future practice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]: Marcus, I'm gonna transition us to our theme questions for the season. So I have 3 questions for you, 1 each on the past, present, and future of student affairs. So we're gonna start in the past, and I'd like to know from you, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively something we should be letting go of?

Marcus R. Langford [00:34:25]: Well, I'll actually lean into what we were just talking about. I think one aspect of our past that I think would help us is loosening our overreliance on some of our classic student development theory. So I think student development theory is important. It can be instructive. But what I've also found, and I even remember my experience as a newer professional, I think sometimes unintentionally, what that allows us to do is to put students in boxes, or it creates a scenario where, yeah, we create kind of parameters that are too restrictive for how we think and why we do what we do. And so one of my things about the past is I think it would be helpful if we weren't necessarily so over reliant on some of our classic student affairs theory. That's probably a bit of, did he really say that? But that's what I think. I'm

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:17]: with you on that one, cosigning that opinion. On the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Marcus R. Langford [00:35:24]: I think one of the things that from my perspective is happening that some people might not see it as a net benefit, but I think we have some younger professionals who are leading the forcing, encouraging, challenging us as a profession to ask some hard yet necessary questions about who we are, why we do what we do, and how we do what we do. To be clear, I thoroughly enjoy the work that I do. I thoroughly enjoyed the work that I did as a dean of students, but I think one of the things that I often say it was, I just tend to be one of those folks who don't say that I love my job. I like it a lot. I have a great affinity for it, but I tend to be a person who I reserve my love for things that can love me back in a tangible and concrete way. So I like my job a lot. I have a high affinity for my job, but I love my wife and I love my kids. And so I think presently, there are younger professionals who are having that mentality, and I think that's really forcing us as an institution to reckon with our reliance on, I'll say it, trying to pay people with and through passion.

Marcus R. Langford [00:36:34]: Like, passion doesn't pay the bills, to be clear. And so I think presently, yeah, there are newer professionals who are asking some questions that are really, really forcing us as a field to contend with some of our historical practices that probably needed to be reconciled with a long time ago.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: I just wanna say for posterity, I quote you on that constantly. I actually said it yesterday to somebody who was really putting in like a 90 to a 100 hour work week. Actually, not even in student affairs. It was in a private industry field. And he said, hey, you know what? I have a friend who has told me a long time ago, I like your job a lot, but don't love your job because your job will never love you back. And that is something that I've taken from your wisdom years years ago, and I I keep that with me. So thank you for that one. And now it'll be out for the pod audience as well.

Marcus R. Langford [00:37:20]: Really quickly, to be clear, you know, I have leaned into that, but that's something that I got from a mentor of mine many, many years ago, Larry Roper.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:28]: Oh, I'm sorry. Of course. It's Larry Roper.

Marcus R. Langford [00:37:30]: Of of course. That's a Larry Roper thing. Again, I I think the the important thing is, again, is this is all about systems. And so that's not to say that a system or an institution doesn't necessarily appreciate you or value you, but I think it's important to understand that there's a reality that the way that Larry put it, we were sitting in the library, and he said, Marcus, what you need to realize is if you and I walk out of this library and fall off the face of the earth tomorrow, the lights will still come on and students will still show up. And part of that is because by nature, systems are designed to persist. And he said that's not to say that we don't do good work, because we do. That's not to say that we wouldn't be missed, because in many ways, we would. But systems by design recalibrate to this point of homeostasis.

Marcus R. Langford [00:38:17]: And so as a result, it's important that you are mindful and intentional to do what you can to take care of yourself because there's no guarantee that a system will. And so, you know, that's just something that I was very, very fortunate to get early on in my career, and it has been instructive for me over my 25 plus years career in this field. And that doesn't mean that I don't work hard. To be clear, you can ask my wife and she can cosign this. That doesn't mean that I haven't failed at that because in my mind, while I think I've done a very good job of maintaining balance in conversations with my wife and even with my kids, I know that there have been times that I've fallen short of that. That said, I think it's something that I've tried to consistently come back to, and I think that trying to get back to it has benefited me greatly over the course of my time in the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:08]: I don't know anyone who doesn't love a good Larry Roperism. And if you'd like to learn more from him directly, he was featured on season 1 of our podcast when Corliss was hosting the show. So if you wanna go back and take a listen, I just always appreciate hearing from him. And Marcus, our our final question here on the future is, in an ideal world, what does our field need to be doing to thrive towards our future?

Marcus R. Langford [00:39:30]: I think I would say that it's incumbent upon us to ensure that our policies, practices, and procedures are reflective of who students are now and the needs of students right now. You know, again, we do ourselves a disservice when we frame and operationalize things based on who we were as students and, you know, what brought us joy as students. Yes. I I I think those things can, to a certain extent, inform what you do. And I'll say something here, and it may not be popular. But if you came into the field to replicate your experience for other folks, I would challenge you to think about that. It's not about replicating your experience. It's about creating, supporting, and sustaining conditions so that people can have a rich and meaningful experience, whatever that may mean and look like for them.

Marcus R. Langford [00:40:27]: So for me, again, I think looking ahead into the future, it's important that our policies, practices, and procedures are reflective of who who our students are now and what their needs are now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:40]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:46]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. There's a lot of things happening in NASPA. The deadline for the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is coming up soon. The regular registration deadline closes on November 11, 2024. The Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11, 2024. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:23]: If you are an individual that wants to connect and learn with other higher education professionals to advance student leadership on your own campuses, then the Leadership Educators Institute is the perfect place for you to go. You'll have the opportunity to explore proven leadership theories and innovative curricula that will help you to develop outstanding leaders on your campus. Just a reminder, the regular registration closes on November 11th, and you can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is happening December 10th through December 13th in San Diego, California. The Women's Leadership Institute is the premier professional development program for women who aspire to be senior leaders in higher education. The Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Participants include women from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. At this conference, you'll have an opportunity to come together with a diverse group of professional women to drive collective development, drive collective development, home leadership skills, share experiences about how to continue to provide adequate support for all students in a turbulent national landscape and create new personal networks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:43]: Don't miss out on the learning and experiences offered at this special event. Find out more on the NASPO website. Also coming up on November 18th, there is a member briefing on translating data into practice, 20 24 NASPA top issues, findings and practical applications on campus. The NASPA 20 24 top issues results provide a snapshot of what senior leaders view as key priorities on campuses this year. This member briefing will provide you with an opportunity to get an overview of the top ranked issues, including centering the student voice, expanding access to mental health and well-being supports, facilitating cross campus collaboration, and more. This on top of examining how these trends shape student support services. A key portion of the presentation will highlight the prevalence of issues related to health, safety, and well-being and holistic student support efforts on campus and how institutions are leveraging NASPA's extensive resources and frameworks to strengthen their response to these issues. We hope you can join us for this session on translating NASPA's research findings into actionable strategies to support student success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:56]: This is a free briefing that you need to log in to the learning portal atnaspa.org or go to learning.naspa.org directly to find this member briefing. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:30]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:35]: Chris, we always appreciate you informing us on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you so much for another informative NASPA world. And, Marcus, we are now at our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to do this?

Marcus R. Langford [00:45:50]: Let's do

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:50]: it. Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Marcus R. Langford [00:45:56]: Let's get this party started.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:57]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:00]: A marine biologist.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:02]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:05]: Larry Roper.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:06]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:08]: I'll say the green book. I can't remember the title of it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:11]: We all know the green book. The student service Larry Roper helped write this one.

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:15]: Yes. Yes. Yes. Foundational information.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:18]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately.

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:21]: I just started watching Operation Lioness and Deceptively Good.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:25]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:28]: A Questlove Supreme.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:29]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Marcus R. Langford [00:46:33]: Personal, I always have to give a shout out to my family. My wife, Mercedes, who loves me in spite of myself. And I also will just wanna give a shout out to the fantastic people that I spent some time working with at Oregon State Oregon State, at the University of Oregon, one of which is Chris Winter. Chris Winter is the person who recruited me to come back to Oregon, and I just thank the world of her.

Marcus R. Langford [00:47:01]: And I'll second, cosign that shout out to Kris. She's somebody who I also have been very grateful to call a mentor in my career.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:01]: Alright, Marcus. We have reached the end of the road for our episode today, and it's been wonderful to hear about your research and your journey. If anyone would like to connect with you after the episode airs, how can they find you?

Marcus R. Langford [00:47:11]: LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram are all Marcus r Linkford.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:16]: Marcus, again, so lovely to reconnect with you, and thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Marcus R. Langford [00:47:21]: Thank you, Jill. It's been a pleasure. Good seeing you and catching up today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:30]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:08]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Exploring Institutional Intelligence and Student-Centric Approaches

In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton welcomed Dr. Michelle Boettcher, an associate professor at Clemson University, to discuss a range of pertinent topics in higher education. With a rich background spanning nearly 20 years in residence life, various administrative roles, and extensive academic experience, Boettcher brings a wealth of knowledge to the conversation. This episode, delves into the nuances of institutional intelligence, ethical considerations, and the essential focus on student-centric practices in higher education.

Bridging Law and Ethics: The Minimum Baseline

Dr. Boettcher emphasizes a crucial distinction between meeting legal standards and upholding higher ethical standards. In one illuminating example, she discusses an accessibility issue where a building at Clemson University housed both office space and an honors residential community on the first floor. Although the building was ADA-compliant, the arrangement limited accessibility accommodations to honors students only. Boettcher argues that this situation, while legally acceptable, raised significant ethical concerns. She underscores that legal frameworks should serve as a foundational baseline, and institutions should strive to go beyond mere compliance to embrace more inclusive and ethical practices.

Unpacking Institutional Intelligence: A Framework for Change

One of the key highlights of the episode is the exploration of "institutional intelligence," a framework co-developed by Boettcher and Salinas in their new book Law and Ethics in Academic and Student Affairs Developing an Institutional Intelligence Approach, and is designed to understand campus culture and decision-making comprehensively. This approach integrates three main components: law and ethics, the institutional environment, and decision-making processes. Boettcher elaborates on how this model assists practitioners in navigating institutional culture, underpinning decisions with historical context, and fostering positive institutional change. By employing reporter-like questions—who, what, where, when, why, and how—this method helps gather and analyze vital information, ensuring well-informed decision-making.

The Core of Ethical Practice: Human-Centered Policies

Boettcher's commitment to student-centric approaches shines through as she emphasizes the importance of keeping students at the center of all institutional efforts. Drawing inspiration from Ruth Bader Ginsburg's dynamic view of law, she illustrates the need for adaptability and responsiveness in student affairs. Boettcher's approach is grounded in balancing control and care, aiming to build more collaborative and engaging environments for students. She also highlights the increasing recognition of student affairs professionals and their critical role in managing various campus scenarios, from everyday operations to crisis situations.

Practical Applications and Reflective Practices

Throughout the conversation, Boettcher stresses the significance of practical applications and reflective practices. Whether it’s onboarding new staff, managing crises, or implementing change, the institutional intelligence framework serves as a guiding tool. Boettcher also touches on the importance of taking time to pause and reflect, referencing mindfulness practices as a metaphor for the long-term benefits of reflection in professional settings.

Merging Law, Ethics, and Practicality

This episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field underscores the intricate balance between legal obligations and ethical responsibilities in higher education. Dr. Michelle Boettcher's insights remind us that effective student affairs work hinges on understanding and navigating institutional culture, centering student needs, and committing to continuous reflection and improvement. Her practical, human-centered approach offers valuable guidance for educators and institutions aiming to foster more inclusive and ethical academic environments.

Listeners are encouraged to provide feedback, suggest topics, and leave reviews to help SA Voices From the Field continue reaching a wider audience with such impactful discussions.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, we're welcoming doctor Michelle l Batcher, sheherhers. Doctor Batcher studies the overlap of student affairs and higher education practice with policy, law, and ethics. She examines how these areas intersect in the areas of career decisions, diversity, equity, inclusion, access, and belonging, popular culture, residence life, the scholarship of teaching and learning, and work environments. After working for nearly 20 years in residence life and student conduct, she's now an associate professor at Clemson University in the student affairs and higher education graduate program. She has a great job, enjoys life as well as work, and is the luckiest person she knows.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]: Michelle, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:02]: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here and have some conversation today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]: And while we are here primarily to talk about your new ish book, which is Law and Ethics in Academic and Student Affairs Developing an Institutional Intelligence Approach, which you coauthored with doctor Christabel Salinas junior, we always wanna start our shows by getting to know our guests. So can you tell us how you landed in your current seat at Clemson?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:25]: Absolutely. So I'll go back to undergrad. I was an RA. And when I graduated, I said I would never live in a residence hall again. Then I went to grad school, and I worked in housing for almost 20 years. So just don't say never. I did that, worked different places. My undergrad's Iowa State.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:47]: My master's was University of Arkansas. I was at the University of Cincinnati. I took a year and well, first after that I was at Ohio University and then I took a year. Because when you work in housing, you don't always have time to think about, do I wanna stay in this work because you're just busy all the time? And I worked at a public radio station for a year in California, which was very fun. And then decided, yeah, higher ed is my thing. I was at Dartmouth for a semester and then moved back to Iowa, which is where I'm from. Went back to Iowa State for a practice interview and was there for 12 years. So I was there for 5 more years in housing and then right before my current position, I was an assistant dean of students and director of student conduct.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:02:35]: And I love that job. It's not for everybody, but I really enjoyed it. While I was doing that, I finished my PhD and started to look at faculty positions. Got the interview at Clemson and came and just really enjoyed the people, both the faculty and the students. And that's what I do now. I just am finishing up 10 years at Clemson, which is mind boggling to me, but I love it. It's the right job for me. It's a good mix of working on my own and then getting to spend really great time with students.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:03:09]: So, yeah, that's a condensed version of my journey.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:11]: I love that you've gone from that practitioner perspective to that kind of researcher perspective and and scholar practitioner because it really, I think, informs your position in your research about how you're going to be approaching challenges and those intractable problems that we're looking at in higher ed. I know a lot of faculty members have gone straight through that faculty track, and a lot of practitioners have never been in that scholar track. So giving those two perspectives some voice, how does that change how you approach your work?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:03:39]: Oh, I love that question. So I think first and foremost, I'm always looking to partner with practitioners. I'm a faculty member. I will always be a practitioner at heart. And I worry sometimes that as faculty, we can get really excited about questions that may not be as pressing and relevant to practitioners as those questions that we can come up with when we're partnering with them. And I'll sort of reference the book in this too. When Chris and I were working on the book, it was really important to us to have practitioner voices in the text. And so almost every critical scenario, we coauthored with practitioners.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:04:22]: And then there are introductory quotes for the functional area chapters and the same thing. We did bring in some other faculty and academic and administrative leaders, but we really wanted this to be rooted in the day to day doing the work kind of thinking. So I love working with practitioners as co authors or supporting them because the people doing that face to face work with students and with incidents on campus, they're the ones who really know what the most important topics are. I very quickly, to my students, became just a faculty member, but at my core, I'm always, I think, gonna be a student affairs practitioner.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: Leading into the book, how did you decide this was the topic for now?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:05:06]: So I did not set out to write this book. I set out to find this book. I get to teach law and ethics every fall, and it is definitely one of my favorite courses to teach. And I don't know that it's the course every student looks forward to. And my coursework was very much studying case law and understanding how case law and policy inform what we do. And that's important, and that's part of the sort of context section of our textbook. But for me, I wanted, how do you think about it? How do you plan for things? And I also wanted an ethical component. Because while a lot of the decisions we make on a daily basis might have legal implications, it's the ethics.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:05:53]: That's, like, almost every decision we make. There's some sort of ethical piece informing that. So I looked and I just couldn't find the book that I wanted. And Chris and I had worked together on a different book related to hazing. And so I reached out to him and said, hey, I wanna put a proposal together. I know that we write well together. He also had practitioner experiences in areas that I have not worked in. And so I thought we make a pretty good team and he was really good.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:06:25]: But his first question was, are you sure I'm the person you wanna write this with? And because he said, I haven't done that work. I said, oh, but you have. You know, you you make those decisions. And he had the academic, like, advising and and mentoring experience, and I just haven't had that. And so that's where it came from. I was looking for a book for class, and I couldn't find the book that I wanted. And so then I was like, okay. I think at the time it was like, we'll just write it.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:06:56]: Yeah. So that just it's a bigger project than, just, but but that's how it came to be. And like I said, I love the topic, and I'm really interested in it. And I want it to be approachable for people. So that's where it came from.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:08]: I would also consider myself a bit of a case law nerd and definitely a policy nerd. One of the things that I've been doing with NASPA for many terms now is sitting on the public policy division and kind of looking at the lens of what are we doing in terms of policy information for practitioners, and there's the intersection of law and policy. And ethics is an interesting place to introduce that topic for aspiring student affairs practitioners. Why at Clemson and for your class in particular, do you choose to pair those 2 subjects together?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:07:37]: So that predates me. That's how the course was set up. But I once I got into it and was working with it, like, it's never even entered my mind to separate them. Mhmm. Because I think we it kinda comes down to just because it's legal doesn't always mean that that's the answer to the question. And I'll give an example. My last residence hall that I worked in as a hall director, I was in a a brand new building, which is an experience unto itself. And if you're listening and you've had that experience, you know, everybody thinks everything's gonna work on move in day and it doesn't really.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:08:18]: There are tweaks still to come. Well, one of the things in this particular building, the first floor, half of it was office and meeting space and half of it was a residential community. And it was an honors community, which meant if you had needs around accessibility, unless you were an honors student, you could not live on the 1st floor. The building was up to code in terms of ADA and all of that. There were lots of really good spaces, but not on the 1st floor, again, unless you were an honor student. So during that 1st year, we had conversations about, can we move the honors floor? And our honors community was one where students tend to tended to stay for a couple of years, and students were not excited about moving until we were able to work with the honors program and expand the community. So the upper floors were full floors, so it was twice as much space. So that was kind of how we were able to make that change.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:09:19]: And it didn't mean that every student with an accessibility issue chose to live on the 1st floor because we have one student who was living on the 3rd floor, and he liked his community there. He didn't wanna move down to 1st floor. But for me, ethically, to not even have that as an option in the newest building on campus was problematic. So I think our our ethics and our laws, like the legal standard is the lowest standard. It's not what we aspire to. And so for me, that's where ethics come as comes in is how do we do the legal thing as well as we possibly can do it? Does that answer the question?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:58]: Yeah. I think we say the similar thing with policy, which is the policy is the floor, not the ceiling, meaning that the policy is the baseline expectation of how we are fundamentally providing access for someone or how we are looking at equity in other learning opportunities or what we expect from our students from a behavioral perspective. I think you and I both grew up in the conduct perspective. That conduct code isn't telling us what we can do. It's telling us what we can't do, and we see that all over the place. And so thinking about the book that you wanted to create for your class, you and Chris invented a framework called the institutional intelligence approach. And when we think about this season of our podcast theme, the past, present, and future of student affairs, this institutional intelligence approach to me frames the questions we have been asking in the past, examines the challenges of the present, and gives us a framework to look towards institutional decision making in the future. So can you talk to us a little bit about what is institutional intelligence? Do you and Chris have framed it in your work?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:10:58]: And I love the way that you put that in terms of past, present, and future. I'm working with students right now on a project using it around the job search, which is future oriented. But absolutely, it's really, I think, a pretty simple model. And so institutional intelligence is at the center. And it's always in flux because there's change all the time on campuses. So it's never that you reach the now I know everything about my institution. It's a growing, evolving kind of thing. And the model, it's 3 pieces.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:11:35]: So on on one end, you have law and ethics. And I would put policy in there. I would put procedure can be part of that as well. But that's sort of the guide. Those are the guidelines. And then in terms of the law and policy piece, the ethics is how do we enact that. And so those help to set the stage for what's the culture on campus. The other side is the who, what, where, why, when, how questions.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:12:04]: And using those, the way that we talk about them in the book is as you navigate institutional culture, how can you build your awareness or your intelligence about a given campus? It could work for another organization. It could work in another context, but you can go through. So just thinking of who's your supervisor. Right? So who are they? What is your relationship with them? How long have they been on campus? How long have you been on campus? You just can go through the questions to kind of anticipate or reflect or again to your point in the moment when you're dealing with something, who needs to know about this? A student just shared something with me. Who else needs to be informed? What's our process for communicating that? When do I need to make sure other people are aware of this situation? And so it really is and it was not a starting point for the book. It came up as we were talking through other things, and it's like this could really be helpful. And again, coming from housing and conduct where there is a lot of crisis, you can get so overwhelmed with whoever is right in front of you in the moment that you can miss other things. And so this model is meant to sort of give you a moment to think about it.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:13:21]: And that moment may come it might come during the event, but it might come after the event. So you're using it to look back and reflect on what did we do? What would we wanna do differently? How did we communicate with the community about this? And it might be used to look forward in terms of changes that we might wanna make in case this situation comes up again. But I think a lot of people use at least parts of it intuitively. We want to understand the place where we are or the situations that we're in. And so we just put a little more detail to it and a little more formality and structure to what a lot of us do instinctively, I think.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:01]: Let's back up a minute. And can you define institutional intelligence as you and Chris use it in your book?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:14:06]: Yeah. So the idea of institutional intelligence is really being aware of the culture of the place and understanding how does it work. I would say at the core, institutional intelligence is knowing your place in the larger picture. And it's understanding, again, policy history is really important. When I teach law and ethics, I talk about the idea of the random campus policy. Every campus has this weird policy that you've never heard of anywhere else. It's almost always the result of a thing that happened, right? There's a story behind those and sometimes we can get to those stories and other times It's so far gone that the story is lost, but the policy remains So it's about awareness. It's about just understanding how things work in an effort to understand how to make things happen, how to create change, or how to sort of engage in ongoing improvement, things like that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:10]: And when we move into the framework that the 2 of you have developed, you mentioned that you're looking at what I would call the reporter questions. Maybe when we first learned in early schooling years how to interview someone or how to ask a question or how to write an article for something, we're looking at that who, what, where, when, why, how, the 5 w's plus how questions. Tell us about how you arrived at these questions, which are well known in American journalistic culture, but transitioning them into a higher ed context.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:15:39]: It's hard not to think of these questions because, like you said, they're just so embedded. We use them, like you said, in reporting. We use them in writing. We use them in understanding, and everybody kind of knows them. And so I think that was part of the appeal. You know, we weren't looking to make something that was unapproachable because the harder it is to understand, the less utility it has. And so using them in our context, it really is just a little bit of a reframe. In a way, a reporter uses them to gather information for the story, which is their work.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:16:16]: In our thinking, we use them to gather information for student affairs work. So asking who within the context of higher ed. We grouped why, when, and how together because those are a little bit more about action. Why is sort of the bridge. Right? It's the bridge between what's happening, what should happen, and how to make it happen, and when and how is putting it into it being whatever it might be. It could be a policy. It could be a crisis response. It could be a supervision strategy.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:16:53]: But those are more the task things and why bridges between the information gathering and the putting into action. And it's again, the comfort that I think a lot of people have with it just made it very appealing. We found ourselves asking those questions as we were building the book and especially as we were writing the critical scenarios. They just kept coming up and over and over again. And so that was sort of the seed that grew into the model.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:22]: You've already mentioned that you're using this model with your current students in the job search in terms of application. You've put some examples in the book around kind of deconstructing university responses to freedom of expression components. How would you envision a practitioner taking this model and applying it to their work? And when does that happen? And what do you hope the outcomes will be?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:17:42]: So I'm a big fan of the model. I think that there is utility for it in so many different ways. The first thing that comes to mind for me is onboarding. Helping someone understand and I would say this doesn't have to be a person new to an institution, but particularly in that case, it could be really helpful. But it could be I'm moving to a new functional area on the same campus. It could be I'm getting a new supervisor. There are lots of different ways, but it is a great tool for adaptation and acclimation. So navigating change or planning to navigate change for implementation as we're doing this and as we're going through whatever the process might be.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:18:28]: I tend toward crisis just because my work experience involve that a lot, but it could be rolling out a new mission statement. Who do we want involved? Who should have input? How do we wanna build the process to move forward? When do we wanna do this? When does it make sense? I also think a really valuable and I would say based on my own experience. So this is, anecdotal, not research driven. But where we miss the opportunity to learn the most is in that reflective stage. We're so busy and there are so many things happening all the time. We don't always carve out time to reflect after. And again, it could be after a crisis, but it could be after, say, you're moving to a cluster higher model in your area. Reflecting on what worked, what didn't, who's involved in that reflection, when do we do it? Do you do it right away? Do you wait 6 months? Do you do it more than once? So I think it works in really the big aspects.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:19:34]: So the creation, ideation, visualization stages of things. It works in supervision, group dynamics, team development sorts of things, and it works in looking ahead and planning, anticipating. It's just an easy model that has pieces that fit into all of the different sorts of activities and conversations and planning that we do and beyond higher ed. But I'm focused on higher ed because that's where I wanna be.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:07]: In the book, there is a table that I like called the ultimate cheat sheet for critical thinking using this model. And so we've talked about kind of the big buckets of the who, what, where, when, why, how. But what I like about the cheat sheet is that it breaks down into more specific subquestions that could be used. I'm just gonna share some of them with our listeners. So if you wanna go pick up the book, you can kind of understand a little bit more about what these buckets might represent in practice. So in the who or whom question, you might ask, who made a decision or decided about the situation, or has anyone else faced the situation? In the what bucket, we might have what are the strengths and weaknesses of those who were involved or effective, or what's another perspective or alternative to the situation in the way that it was managed. In the where, we're looking at things like where's the most need for a specific resource or support in the situation, or, where can we get more information is a is a great question we should always be asking. In the when we have, when did it occur, when's the best time to act? And That's a great reflection question for practitioners who are looking to implement change or even make a response to something that could have been a crisis on your campus.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:15]: In the why, we have why is this situation a problem or a challenge? And I don't think we stopped to ask that question a lot. The why is this happening, why now? Because as responders in student affairs, we're often looking at, okay, what should we be doing? And I think the impetus for the why question can help us actually solve the problem because we might be getting to the root a little differently. And then finally, in the how bucket, how will we approach this situation safely? How does this response or decision harm us or others? So I think it just gives us a nice framing of, hey, let's pause. And one thing we don't do in student affairs a lot is pause. Yeah. So thank you for giving us some of those questions that I think you're right. We're already doing, but we don't necessarily put in one place.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:21:58]: And the idea of the pause, I'm so glad that you brought that up. There's a story that I like about this man and he goes to a teacher and asks, I'm really busy, but I know I need to meditate. How long do I need to meditate? And the teacher says, about an hour every day. And the man says, I don't have that kind of time. I can't do it for an hour every day. And the teacher says, okay. Then 2 hours a day. And I think about that in terms of what you were just sharing because that pause, it does take away time in the moment, but the time that it saves down the road and the clarity that it can bring, it's an investment forward.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:22:37]: And, yeah, it takes some time in the moment. But if you don't reflect, you end up doing the same things over and over again that may or may not be in the best interest, not only of the students involved or the faculty or staff involved, but in terms of your own team and your own I don't wanna say productivity, but your own rootedness in the work. Because more committed and energized and understanding ways instead of that's just the way that it is.

Lora Phelps [00:23:13]: What are the other major takeaways that you're hoping readers of the book will keep with them?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:23:18]: So I will share that one of the things and Chris and I definitely wanna acknowledge doctors Mimi Benjamin and Jody Joseph Banger who worked with us and supported us through the development and the submission of the book. One of the things for me is I use humor a lot, and I use it in my teaching. And I wanted this to be as enjoyable as this kind of a book can be. So there is some humor in there. Chris came up with this great concept of the onion. And to understand what issues are, you have to get to the core of the onion and an onion is layered. And I think we even have in there sometimes it will make you cry a little bit. But we tried to use examples like that.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:24:05]: You know, we use real life examples. And again, the partnering with practitioners was really important to us. But there are ways to make scholarship approachable and enjoyable. And there are also scholars who write and use language that creates barriers and hierarchy. And we did not wanna do that. We really wanted this in the hands of practitioners, people using it in classes, and providing students a way of engaging with what can be really challenging. The issues that our students and our higher education communities are facing are heavy, and they're challenging. And there can be joy, and there can be laughter in the work as well.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:24:48]: So I think that's one of the things I'm most proud about. Again, thanks to Mimi and Jody. There were a few things in there that they're like, yeah. It's funny, but I don't think you really want this in the book. And I would then go to Chris and say, it is funny. And he would say, yeah, but I think they're right. So it's, I think, an appropriate amount of humor. But I do think that in the end, we're human beings, and we're navigating our lives and building our stories.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:25:15]: And for me, humor and love go hand in hand. And so that's part of what underscores the book is I hope that people receive it as a book of care, not as a directions or I don't want it to be rigid because policy is really not rigid. It can look that way on paper, but when it comes to implementation and meaning making, it is more malleable. And if we don't bring care, we can shape it in ways that do harm rather than in ways that ultimately it should be something that supports healthy communities and places where people can thrive and grow.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:56]: Michelle, we're gonna transition into our theme questions for the season. So first, I'm going to talk to you about the past, which is what's one component of the history of student affairs that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:26:11]: So I would say something that we should carry forward is centering students. And I say that because while I think for the most part we do that, where we are right now, and one of my go to people or one of the people I admire very, very much is justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And she talked about law as a pendulum. And it's not static. It's always in motion. And sometimes it's a little more where we want it to be, and sometimes it's a little more where we would rather it not be. And there are people at either ends of that. And so we're all comfortable at times, and we're all uncomfortable at times.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:26:55]: And so I say centering students moving forward because we are in, I feel like right now, a place where I worry that we are being pushed to center law, policy, and politics rather than centering students. And this is not the first time we've been here. I know it for me, it can feel very scary at times. But if you look back over the history of higher education, this is common and it's where the pendulum is in the moment. I want us to carry that forward and I don't really have a fear that we won't. I think the people who are drawn to this work are drawn to this work because of the experiences they had, the experiences they didn't have, and what they want to create for other people as they're going through their higher ed experiences. So we can get pressured or it can get easy to get caught up in other things. But in student affairs, if at some point in whatever our process is, we're asking, is this what's best for students? I think we're gonna be okay.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:28:01]: And sometimes we have to compromise on that a little bit because things we don't always get to be the boss of all the decisions. But that's something that I would say, while it originally probably started over controlling students, the way that this work has emerged has really been about caring for students more than controlling. But again, we go back and forth on this and but that's something I would really like for us to hold on to. And I'm happy and proud to say I know lots of people who are doing exactly that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:31]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:28:35]: I think that student affairs is I don't know if rising in prestige is the right way to say it, but I think because of different things that have happened and are happening, I think people understand we need student affairs because a lot of times college presidents, particularly at 4 year institutions, come from the faculty route or more and more they're coming from a business route. And while those leaders bring certain strengths, they don't bring the strengths of dealing with student behavior. And stop it is generally not gonna work with students. And so I think that the role of divisions of student affairs and the functional areas that are really student facing, I think people are understanding we need people with that kind of expertise to navigate not just when things go poorly, but when things go well. We need to understand and I'll use just because it just happened when the Vanderbilt football victory. They're walking the goalpost 3 miles to the river. Well, sure, there's law enforcement involved with that. There's policy and things like that.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:29:57]: But in terms of communicating to students and balancing the celebration with the responsibility, we're the ones who know how to do that. I worked for a vice president at one point and his philosophy was we do the things other people don't wanna do. Well, I think that's true to an extent. I think now people are understanding we do the things other people can't do. And so it's faculty matter, administrators and leaders matter, but student affairs people, they're the ones who really are dealing with some of those really big issues, whether it's the recent hurricanes on campus or celebrations or whatever it might be. So and I can be naive, and maybe that's not exactly true. But I see more examples of consultation rather than direction from the top down in terms of working with student affairs practitioners.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:51]: And looking towards the future in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:30:57]: We have got to tell the story of what we do And whether that's assessment, whether that is more practitioners in public media, there's the joke of you can't really explain what student affairs is. That's true. It's a weird kind of thing that most people don't understand, but you can tell the stories of specific things that we have done and the way that we make a difference. And we do that in partnership with students, but any chance that someone has to share information about what we're doing and the difference that we make, that's just gotta continue. And I'm I'm a storyteller at heart, so there are lots of different ways to do that. Could be being on a podcast. It could be writing for a publication. It's great to do things at conferences.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:31:46]: It's important to do that. And could you do something like that for your city council? Could you do something like that for maybe even local schools talking about transition. And we do that in the practice of the function of our work. But the more that we can get out and tell the stories of how we make a difference. And it's not just about preserving roles on campus, but it's really about letting families and students and communities know about the resources that we have. It always hurts to find out a student has been struggling for weeks or months when we have the people, the places and the things that could have helped them through whatever it is they're navigating. But that storytelling, I just can't stress it enough. It's really essential and we've all got the stories.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:32:36]: We don't have to come up with things. We all carry those with us every day.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:40]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]: Thanks so much, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. We all know that leadership is an integral competency for our profession. The leadership development of students is an important and ongoing process that requires commitment from both students and staff. Student affairs professionals and other university administrators play an essential role in coordinating, shaping and evaluating the leadership development of students by designing leadership courses and programs, creating co curricular opportunities and utilizing emerging technologies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]: The Leadership Educators Institute has a rich history of convening professionals committed to leadership development for nearly 17 years. This Institute creates a space for student affairs administrators, scholars, and practitioners to discuss and advance current leadership topics. As mentioned, the conference is from December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Registration is still open with regular registration deadline coming on November 11th. Get more information on the NASPA website. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is coming up also in December, December 10th through 13th in San Diego, California. The Women's Leadership Institute is the premier professional development program for women who aspire to be senior leaders in higher education. The Women's Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:35]: Participants include women from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation, and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. You can be a part of a special program for women seeking to become leaders in higher education administration and student affairs. This institute is co produced by several higher education associations and is a unique program that will bring together administrators from across campus functions to help you hone your leadership skills for working in a rapidly changing environment, develop a better understanding of the campus as a workplace and culture, share experiences with others about how campuses are adapting and adjusting to the new reality and create new personal networks and networking skills to better tap the higher education community. Registration is still open and you can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 Red Ribbon Week Campus Video PSA Contest is currently open. This annual contest aims to promote the importance of living a drug free lifestyle. Just recently, NASPA announced that through the campus drug prevention dot gov website, your campus can submit a campus video PSA to promote the importance of preventing illicit drug use and legal drug misuse among college students. If your campus wishes to do this, you would create a 30 to 60 second video PSA showcasing your campus' commitment to a healthy drug free lifestyle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:05]: You can submit your entries until November 4th and there's some great prizes for the winners, including a first prize of $5,000 to to support the winning campuses, the winning campuses efforts to prevent drug misuse among their students and a recognition plaque. Beyond this, it's a great opportunity to be able to bring your whole campus community together for a common goal. Find out more at campus drugprevention dot gov. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:27]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:55]: Chris, thank you again for all of the work that you do to keep us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Michelle, we have reached our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you. 90 seconds. Ready to rock?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:08]: I'm ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:08]: Okay. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:13]: It would be I don't know that this puts me in a positive light, but I love Apex Predator from the Mean Girls soundtrack. So I would go with that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:22]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:26]: A writer.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:26]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:29]: Frank Robinson.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:30]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:32]: Oh, well, my book.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:35]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:38]: I am watching right now the Gotham series, which I haven't decided if I like it or not, but I love Batman. So that's what I'm watching.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:47]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:51]: Criminal.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:51]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:55]: Yes. Absolutely. Shout out to Chris Salinas. Thank you for everything. And to my partner, Leslie, who endured the process of me writing the book as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:05]: Like a second dissertation all over again. Exactly. Well, Michelle, it's been wonderful to get to know you today and learn more about your and Chris's work on institutional intelligence. If anyone would like to follow-up with you after the show, how can they find you?

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:39:17]: Yeah. So the best way to reach me is through email. I my email is my to do list, and I'm very good at keeping up with that. That's m as in Michelle, and then the first part of my last name, [email protected]

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:35]: dotedu. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your voice and your institutional intelligence with us today.

Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:39:42]: Jill, thank you for the invitation. This has really been a pleasure, and you have a great demeanor. You made this very easy and very pleasant, and all the best moving forward. But thank you again for your time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:57]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:39]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan- Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Mike Segawa, an esteemed student affairs professional with over 40 years of experience, to delve into the evolving landscape of student affairs. Mike shares his invaluable insights on the importance of storytelling, professional development, and the challenges facing the profession today.

The Power of Storytelling in Higher Education

Storytelling holds a unique place in academia, especially within student affairs. Mike Segawa underscores the value of storytelling not just for engaging students but also for communicating effectively with cabinet members, board members, alumni, and presidents. Particularly in the Pacific Northwest and among indigenous populations, storytelling is a revered cultural tradition. It serves as an entertaining and less threatening way to convey significant impacts and digest information. Through stories, professionals can humanize data and present compelling narratives that illustrate the importance of their work.

Grad Prep Programs: A Traditional Path with Modern Challenges

Mike reflects on the traditional career trajectory in student affairs, from resident advisor (RA) to vice president. However, he acknowledges that this path is becoming less common, as many professionals now enter the field from diverse backgrounds. Mike's own graduate program was extensive, covering legal issues, counseling, diversity, and history. Today’s programs, constrained by shorter durations, struggle to fully prepare students for the complexities of modern student affairs roles. This gap necessitates enhanced and ongoing professional development.

Professional Development: Beyond Conferences

Practical training such as graduate assistantships (GAships), internships, and practicum experiences are crucial but vary greatly in quality. According to Mike, professional development should extend beyond national conferences. Local and regional opportunities, as well as diverse and structured activities, are vital for continuous growth. Mike stresses the need for purposeful professional development plans that are aligned with individual career aspirations and institutional goals.

Sustaining a Career in Student Affairs: Combatting Burnout

The discussion also touches on the increasing burnout among student affairs professionals, exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr. Jill Creighton notes that the complexity of roles has grown, encompassing more legal and regulatory challenges. Mike advises maintaining strong personal relationships and taking regular vacations as essential strategies for resilience. He emphasizes that supervisors must model this behavior to set the right expectations for work-life balance within their teams.

The Dual-Edged Sword of Technology

Technology has fundamentally changed how students interact with each other and with institutions. While beneficial, it also presents challenges, particularly through social media, which can sometimes cause harm. Mike highlights the importance of ensuring a balanced and positive experience for students, fostering both intellectual development and joy during their collegiate years.

Looking Ahead: Advocacy and Equity

Mike Segawa advocates for a proactive approach in engaging with public entities like legislators and civic leaders. By sharing data-driven stories, student affairs professionals can better demonstrate their contributions to education and gain support. He also discusses the ongoing challenge of promoting diversity and inclusion, noting the need to constantly justify these efforts in an increasingly scrutinized public and political environment.

The Enduring Impact of Student Affairs

Mike Segawa's insights highlight the critical role of storytelling, the necessity of comprehensive professional development, and the enduring challenges faced by student affairs professionals. His advice and reflections serve as a guiding light for current and future practitioners, emphasizing the importance of balancing work and life, leveraging technology wisely, and advocating for equity and inclusion in higher education.

For more insights and to hear the full conversation, tune into NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, where we explore the multifaceted world of student affairs and the voices shaping its future.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA voices, we are honored to welcome Mike Segawa. Mike served as an SSAO for over 16 years at the University of Puget Sound, Pitzer College, and the Evergreen State College. During those times, his staff was responsible for a variety of student services offices, including dean of students, counseling and health, housing and res life, career services, student activities, multicultural support services, Greek life, orientation, outdoor programs, student conduct, access services, and recreation and athletics. The majority of his 40 year career was spent in residence life at Evergreen, the University of Washington, and then Central Missouri State University. And while Warrensburg, Missouri was not his favorite place to live, he did meet his wife of 42 years there when both he and Mary were on the residence life staff there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]: Mike has served many of our professional associations, including NASPA, ACPA, and Akuhoai. While with NASPA, he served in a variety of roles, including president, regional vice president, conference chair for Chicago in 2001, and the Orlando joint conference with ACPA in 2007, and 10 years on the national board of directors. His most enjoyable role, though, was as the coordinator of the SERVE Academy. He's also been the host for the Small College and University Institute, a number of SSAO institutes, and the region 5 SSAO retreat. He proudly served for 12 years on the region 5 advisory board. Mike has been honored with the 2022 distinguished pillar of the profession award, the Henry g outstanding mentoring award from the APIKC, the 2007 pillar of the profession, the Doris Machi Coaching breaking the glass ceiling award, and the region 5 Turner award. Now fully engaged in active retirement life, he continues to enjoy his fanaticism for the Seattle Mariners baseball team, fantasy baseball, running, traveling with his wife, Mary, spending time with their 2 kids and their families who live in Seattle and Virginia, and reading The Chronicle of Higher Education for purely entertainment. Mike, we're so glad to have you on SA Voices.

Mike Segawa [00:02:21]: Jill, thank you. I'm looking forward to this.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:23]: And Mike, you and I have been connecting at annual conference for, I think, probably several years at this point. You're a pillar of that, the AAPI community for NASPA, but also a distinguished pillar of the profession. And you've just had just an illustrious and very complex career. So I'm looking forward to talking to you today about the longevity of being a student affairs professional and kinda what you've seen. And normally, we start our episodes off by asking our guests how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is retired life. So without kind of going too deep back into the bio a little bit, can you tell us about your journey through the profession?

Mike Segawa [00:03:02]: Oh, it was 40 years, Jill, and it never felt like it. I loved every step of the journey. And, actually, you know, a lot of folks, especially when I was a senior student affairs officer, asked what was your favorite job? And they assumed it was being a vice president. And instead, I went the opposite direction. I said, actually, my favorite job was being an RA. And yeah. Absolutely. I've said that in front of RAs.

Mike Segawa [00:03:24]: Every time I greeted them for training, I've said it in front of parents and students. Being an RA was the best job I ever had. So started there, but I loved every job that I had after that, whether it was as a hall director or director of housing or vice president or whatever. I loved every job, so it was a wonderful 40 year career. But I knew it was time to leave when, staff would come to me and said, we need a new strategic plan. And I said, yeah. You're right. I don't wanna do that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:54]: Sounds like a lot of work. Right?

Mike Segawa [00:03:55]: Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:56]: So it it sounds like what drove you into student affairs is that kind of semi traditional RA path. What sparked joy for you as an RA that made you wanna launch into the career?

Mike Segawa [00:04:08]: It was the basis of my happiness throughout my whole career, and that was the individual students. You know, as we get deeper into the career and you move up the ladder, the chance for contact with individual students gets harder to do, but I always manage to find ways to do it. And when I think back to my RA years, you know, when I needed a study break, all I had to do was walk outside my room and walk down the hallway, and there were always gonna be residents there that I could talk with and just find time to have fun with. Got harder when you became a vice president or dean of students. You know, this when you would walk up to a student, they go, did I do something wrong? But that was it. It was that individual student contact that, even to this day, is the joy of the work. Because every few months or even actually more than few months during a month, on a monthly basis, I'll have some former student reach out or some former staff member reach out, and we'll have a conversation whether by email or phone or text or whatever. And frankly, those are the highlights of the week, man.

Mike Segawa [00:05:11]: They still are, even now being retired for about 3 years.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:14]: MEWI recently won a mentorship award, the Henry G, mentorship award through the APIKC. And so I think that really speaks to your willingness to give to professionals even though you're no longer on a college campus day to day.

Mike Segawa [00:05:27]: Yeah. And, you know, the mentorship piece is a fascinating dynamic to me because stereotypically, people see that almost as a one way street that the mentor is providing support service to the mentee. But actually, especially when I was practicing, I got more out of that interaction than I felt the mentee was getting. Because I was still learning so much about what was going on in the lives of our students or our staff members or employees or whomever that, gave me an insight that when you're especially sitting in what I call the big chair, people don't necessarily volunteer that to you. And so having those opportunities to engage colleagues in that way was very much a two way street.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]: I'll give a shout out to another NASPA pillar, Doctor. Mary Jo Gonzales, who's a a mentor of mine as well. And she would talk often about, you know, needing to find truth tellers when you're sitting in the big chair, and being able to, have those around you who who you can trust to tell you the truth even if the truth is hard.

Mike Segawa [00:06:28]: Yeah. And, you know, and the truth can be hard, and it can be hard to hear it sometimes. You know, and some of us are better at that than others. And so that's something I think that requires usually practice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:39]: So let's pop back to that RA space for just a minute because you came into the student affairs profession at a time when the literature, especially around student development, was still pretty focused on a particular population. And so I'm just gonna name that. We know most of our original student development theory work was focused on white cisgendered men. And so we know that the literature has evolved since then. But knowing what you were getting into in the state of the field at the time, what do you see as things that were important for you as a as a learning space? And what did you see as things where you were still filling in the gaps of your own knowledge and how you were working with students?

Mike Segawa [00:07:17]: As folks could see from my bio, I did my undergraduate work at UC Irvine, and that was way back in 1975 to 79. One of my first supervisors as an RA was an Asian American woman. Little did I know how unique and rare that would be for me in my career to have an Asian American woman be a supervisor. However, it was so important. What I learned from her by watching her, by having her as a role model, conversations and all that, that was hugely important to me as I reflect, you know, on the whole arc of my career. And so it it was just reinforcement for the importance of having a diverse workforce, including in student affairs, and that we're still a ways away from it. So that was hugely important to me, who I was working with, who my supervisors were. And I had the advantage that throughout my career, I had folks from diverse backgrounds who were supervisors.

Mike Segawa [00:08:13]: But again, at the time, I didn't really appreciate it. They were just my supervisor. They were Rob. They were Charlene. They were Jim. They were the folks that yes. They're my supervisor. But their identities, in their own ways, they role modeled how to do that really well.

Mike Segawa [00:08:29]: And you know, I think the common denominator for those that I most enjoyed working with in that role was their own self of sense of self confidence and self worth. And so that's something that I didn't fully appreciate at the time. And I think as we're on the journey, you may not fully appreciate the presence of some of those folks in your career. They could be supervisors. They could be peers. They could be students that you're working with who are student leaders. But surrounding yourself with folks who are different from you in so many ways really enriches the career, makes it more fun, but also enhances your skill set in a way that the research can't do, the books can't do, the lectures can't do. It's only in that interaction personally, 1 on 1 especially over an extended period, that I think you get the most advantage of having diverse voices around you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:17]: And in thinking about how diversity has evolved and DEIB has changed from when you entered the field to now, can you help us understand how that evolution felt as you were moving through it? Because we can look at it from a retrospective and say, yes, we're in a different place now, but we also know that happens incrementally.

Mike Segawa [00:09:35]: Yeah. We are at a different place now. Maybe I'll start there because the place we are now, literally today, honestly, I think is so much harder than where we were 40 years ago when I first started the work. The challenges that we are facing in the way of social justice and equity, especially external to the academy, is not some place I anticipated us having to go. And I've talked with a lot of my colleagues who are still in the field, especially senior officers, and I shared with them that I never imagined 10 or 20 years ago that we would have to be engaged in these kinds of conversations, justifying what I would consider to be some of the pillars of our profession, some of the core tenants of our profession, the things that almost all of us grew up with, believing in strongly and still believe in, that we would have to justify it in the ways that I am seeing, especially at some of our flagship institutions that are just more visible to the public and to politicians and to other folks. So I'll start there. Like I said, that I think today's work in the way of social justice and equity inclusion is harder than it was 40 years ago. But the evolution of it on so many levels is gratifying.

Mike Segawa [00:10:43]: We're talking about things now that are so much further ahead of where we were 40 years ago. 40 years ago, it was very much a representation issue. It was a numbers issue that we saw or the lack thereof. Especially in student affairs, I'm proud of the job that we've done in terms of diversifying our own workforce, but we still have a ways to go with that. Whether it's with indigenous populations or Asian American, Asian populations, Southeast Asian populations, Hispanic, Latino, Latinx. We've got a ways to go still with that. But it's gratifying to see that we're beyond simply needing to get numbers in the door. And I think we've become, inside the the academy and especially student affairs, we've become better sophisticated about the students that we're dealing with and each other as peers and colleagues.

Mike Segawa [00:11:34]: So that's progress. But we're being challenged now in a way, like I said, I didn't see this coming. And it's really frustrating to me that that's now a critical part of the work. Because having to do that kind of work that many of you are doing in defending the work means that's a diversion from being able to deliver day to day service to students or to our institutions. Like I said, it's a frustrating dynamic for me to watch.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:56]: Do you have any advice for those of us that are in those weeds?

Mike Segawa [00:12:00]: Well, with student affairs and actually with higher education in general, we generally don't get to shape the agenda socially, even when it has to do with us in terms of higher education and our students. So we do have to be reactive to it. And in this case, I don't see this dynamic going away where having to justify the work around equity and inclusion. It's gonna be on our radar screen, and it's gonna be foisted upon us as an agenda item for a while. So it's not gonna do us any good to try and avoid it or to downplay it or to pooh pooh it or to just dismiss it as these are people who just don't know or understand or their motives are not pure in why they're challenging it. So having said that, I think that we in student affairs and especially some of our senior officers and our equity inclusion officers, we're gonna have to get more comfortable and more engaged in what I call the public square conversations. We're gonna have to be engaged in those conversations outside of the academy, outside of our ivy covered walls, and engage it and bring our perspective and data assessment to it to inform the conversation. And we're not always gonna be successful with that, and it's not always gonna be heard.

Mike Segawa [00:13:17]: But we need to have the opportunity to at least put it out there, like I said, in the public square. And we're not used to that. You know, our graduate programs don't teach us or train us for that. Our professional training doesn't do that. I don't know that we've seen very many, if any, programs at NASPA or ACP or anywhere else on this kind of thing. But we're gonna need to engage our publics in a way that we have not had to do historically around here. I think we can do it. I know we can do it.

Mike Segawa [00:13:43]: But this is a different direction that we're gonna have to go, because I think we need to be more assertive about sharing who we are, what we do, and what it accomplishes on behalf of our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:56]: I think that's true both in and outside of the academy. One of the things I've always talked about in senior leadership roles is how student affairs tells its story to the rest of the campus community and the stakeholders. Because I think a lot of student affairs professionals, and I've felt this way in my career as well, kind of always feel like the underdog a little bit that we're constantly scrapping to prove that we are deserving of resources or time, energy, what have you. And then we have on the other side, these beautiful student stories of students who would not have persisted without the student services that are coming out through student affairs, whether that be things like camp programs or student involvement or TRIO or I can go on and on and on about the list of whatever that might look like. But we also don't do a good job of telling that story even to our academic affairs partners sometimes. So it's wise advice that you're sharing.

Mike Segawa [00:14:46]: Joe, what you just said is another one of my hopes for us as a profession, and that is we do become better storytellers, which means we're not lecturing people. We're not preaching to people. We're sharing the stories, especially of our students. And a lot of times, we let the student voices sing that out. That's absolutely perfect and most effective. But we will be in places that our students will not be. And so being able to tell those stories of our students. And I remember many times saying to my staff, I need these stories in my hip pockets.

Mike Segawa [00:15:17]: Because as a senior officer, I wasn't always privy to those stories. But my director of student activities was, my director of orientation was, my resident directors were. So I was always searching for those stories that I could use, whether it was with cabinet members, board members, alumni. Because during most of my time, I was focused inwardly on those stories to within the academy. I didn't have to talk very much with legislators and folks outside the academy as I was just talking about, but I still needed those stories. And I needed those stories to pass on to my president because I wanted my president to have those stories in his or her hip pocket to be able to pull out. So storytelling has a proud tradition in so many of our cultures, you know. And especially for someone like me being in the Pacific Northwest, our indigenous populations have the most wonderful stories and develop the most wonderful art around those stories.

Mike Segawa [00:16:13]: So, yeah, it is hugely critical, but storytelling is a much more fun way to convey how we have impact and is an easier way for folks to digest what we are saying and what we're trying to convey. And I think it's less threatening, and it's more entertaining. So, yeah, I do think we need to become better storytellers inside the academy, as you said, Joe. But, you know, as I said earlier, it's becoming increasingly important outside the academy now to be able to tell those stories and to equip others to tell those stories.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:45]: You mentioned grad prep programs as a place where there's space for evolution and how we're preparing student affairs professionals. I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about what your grad prep was like when you were getting your master's degree in student affairs, what you're seeing now, and where you think we should be going.

Mike Segawa [00:17:02]: Wow. That's a long term memory recall for me. Although it doesn't seem like that long ago, it it really doesn't. And I think that's part of the joy of the journey has been. In student affairs, for probably the longest time, and certainly the last 25, 30 years, we have often talked about an arc of a career in student affairs starting with the grad prep program or even earlier than that as an undergraduate, you were a student leader. And usually that meant you were an RA, and then you went to graduate school and you got your master's degree, and then you got into the field. Usually, it was a residence life type position, and then you just moved up the chain. You moved up your career ladder.

Mike Segawa [00:17:42]: And that was the stereotypical arc that led you to a director position, an assistant dean, an associate dean, associate vice president, and then you got to sit in the big chair as the vice president. And that was a traditional career arc. You know, as I've gone through this, actually, very few of us did that traditional career arc from RA to vice president. And I say that as one of the few unicorns that did that. I started as an RA, and I ended up as a vice president. But, you know, most of my colleagues, most of my peers, that wasn't their career arc. We came from all different directions in terms of our journey to eventually becoming a senior officer. So when I think about my grad program and what we did, yes, it was really a very traditional program in that sense of how we would describe it.

Mike Segawa [00:18:31]: It included programs like legal issues. It had a counseling component. It did have a diversity component to it, history. So it very much was traditional, which was a great grounding for me 40, 45 years ago. But the conversations that I had I've had with my our faculty colleagues in these programs, especially over the last 5 to 7 years of my career, pointed out to me how hard it is on our grad prep programs today to prepare our colleagues for this work because there really isn't any way in a usual 2 year master's program to really prepare you for the day to day work that you're gonna now be entering because it's so much harder, so much more complicated, so much more complex than the world I entered over 40 years ago. And a 2 year grad program can't possibly touch on all of the topics that a supervisor would say we need you to get. And so that is the huge challenge to our grad prep programs and to our students coming through those programs now. There really needs to be acknowledgment.

Mike Segawa [00:19:35]: The 2 year master's program, if a person chooses to come that route into the field, can only be the first step in your professional development and preparation for this incredibly challenging but rewarding work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:47]: And it's interesting because one of the things I've been hearing about the grad prep spaces is that there's some practical elements that we expect that are taught through, GAships or internships, practicum experiences. And that's uneven training ground depending on where a grad student is placed, particularly in navigating sticky political situations on campuses. And those are things sometimes that we can only learn through experience and sometimes stepping right in it in that experience.

Mike Segawa [00:20:18]: Yeah. Stepping right in it is a great way to learn. You just hope you don't step into it too often. One of the things that, again, towards the end of my career, I was really paying more attention to both on my own campuses, but as a profession. We just have to get better at providing our staff with professional development options and opportunities. And to be more purposeful, have them be more purposeful about them, help them to be more purposeful about it, be more structured about it, and to look for the opportunities and to create the opportunities that aren't just going to NASPA, National. Some of our younger colleagues, I think, have this vision of, I need to go to the national conference. That is the professional development opportunity.

Mike Segawa [00:21:05]: That's the place to be seen. That's the place to get the jobs. And all of that, to some degree, has some truth to it. But for me, professional development over the course of your career should be a diversity of opportunities that can be delivered on your own campus, locally, within your community, regionally, nationally, and as you know better than I do, Joe, internationally. So we, as supervisors, just need to get our folks to be more purposeful and structured about their own career development arc because it's gonna it's even more important now than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The skills and preparation and experience that our folks need to be successful and to navigate these really challenging waters is so critical. You are not prepared for the work coming out of the master's program alone. And you're not prepared for the work just by going to conference programs over the course of a few years.

Mike Segawa [00:22:02]: You're gonna have to develop your skills and experiences in ways that are just very sophisticated, very purposeful, and very diverse.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:11]: And those skill sets may not actually be all that different than the ones that you needed when you started your career, but the the nuance around them might have changed for sure.

Mike Segawa [00:22:19]: Yeah. And what to me is even more critical now than it was to me 40 years ago, 45 years ago, is how to sustain yourself in the work. That was really never a question for me and most of my peers for most of our career. And when I say how do we sustain ourselves, it's can I do this work for another 5 years? Can I do this work for another 10 years? Can I do this work for another 25 years? That was never really crossing our minds. There would be bad days or bad weeks where we go, maybe I should go do something else. But those are more fleeting thoughts, and they never stuck. Today, I mean, especially over the last 5 to 7 years, I've had so many conversations with folks at all places in their professional journey that are asking themselves that question. They're not necessarily sharing that with others and especially not sharing it with supervisors.

Mike Segawa [00:23:09]: It was fascinating to me when I would be at NASPA having these kinds of coffee vine conversations or just sitting somewhere quietly on with these topics in mind. And I would ask folks, can you see yourself doing this work for another 15 years? Joe, I and I had dozens of those over the course of last few years. I didn't run into a single person who immediately said, yeah. Absolutely. No problem. I can easily do it. Every single one of them said paused and said, I haven't really told anybody that, but I've thought about it. Can I do this for another x amount of years? And usually it was more than 5.

Mike Segawa [00:23:43]: You know, those of us who are close to retirement, it's like, yeah, we can suck it up and do it. But those who are at mid level positions or entry level positions or whatever, asking them that question was really, on some level, heartbreaking to hear their response because they didn't know if they could do this work for a lifetime of work. And that's hard to hear, but it's also important to hear because supervisors, professional associations, we need to be paying attention to that in ways that I think need to be different than what we have been doing for the last 50 years. Just letting our folks go to national regional conferences saying, that's great, that's good, that's professional development, it's not enough anymore. And one other thing I'll add to it is budgets are tight on every campus no matter what kind you are. And almost always, the first things that we cut are professional development dollars. We have to rethink that because that's a short term fix that will have medium and long term negative consequences for our profession, for our institutions, and our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:49]: I appreciate you naming the burnout in the field. It's something that we've been talking about on the podcast since I've been working with it really, and COVID really did a number on a lot of us, I think. And that's not specific to the student affairs profession, but a lot of us were holding the space for unprecedented decisions and times and things that were really hard. And as you've mentioned throughout our conversation, the the nuance of the profession has gotten more complicated. The litigiousness has gotten more complicated, and the regulation has gotten more complicated. So as you kind of observe those you're mentoring, what advice do you like to give about how to find that resilience?

Mike Segawa [00:25:28]: It comes back to a lot of things that we know are important. It starts for me with, do not neglect your loved ones. There are going to be days weeks again where, okay, yes, I do have to spend a lot of time with work on campus. But if that happens too often, if you allow that to happen too often, and you don't pay attention to your families, to those who are closest to you, that's gonna be detrimental to them, to you, to your students. And we often let that slide and and sacrifice that. And so my first thing to my folks has always been take care of your families, take care of yourself in that regard. But we oftentimes sacrifice that. And so that that is number 1 for me.

Mike Segawa [00:26:12]: Number 2 is I paid attention a lot to vacation balances for my staff. And those who were accruing huge balances, for a long time, that was seen as a red badge of courage. You know, wow. Look at that. You know, what dedication they have to the work. And I came to believe, actually, no. That's a problem, actually. If we have staff members, colleagues who are actually returning vacation balances to the institution, that's not a good thing.

Mike Segawa [00:26:40]: And so as a supervisor, paying attention to those kinds of details and literally really pushing your folks to use those vacation balances, take the time, is hugely important. Most of our staff have often been at will employees or exempt employees, which means we also have the flexibility to give them some downtime that doesn't have to come off the books of vacation or sick. When they've come off those tough weeks, make sure they take the time to be away and fully away, which is hard with your cell phones and computers and iPads and everything else. But that's hugely important to be able to do. And as a supervisor, you need to role model that. There's a little longer story. But so many years ago, I was asked by NASPA to do a workshop on and I think it was at a new SSAO Institute. And they gave me the, work life balance workshop.

Mike Segawa [00:27:31]: I'm going, oh, okay. I had actually never put together one of those workshops, so I actually had to do some digging around and creating. So I sent an email to about a couple dozen of my colleagues, mostly vice presidents at that point, and said, what do you think of this work life balance thing? And the traditional answers came back, you know, you need to take the time, you need to be attentive to it and all that. But I had a couple colleagues who wrote back saying, you know, I really don't do it. I love my work. I get energy from the work. And so I just dive in. And I don't do a lot of vacation kinds of stuff.

Mike Segawa [00:28:02]: I don't take a lot of downtime. But they said, what I've learned though in that process is my staff is watching me. And so if I'm telling them to take time and I'm not doing it

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:12]: They're not doing it.

Mike Segawa [00:28:13]: They're not doing it. Actions speak louder than words. And so even the rare few for whom the work gave them the energy, so they just really dug in and did so much of it. Even they said, I needed to be more attentive to the message I was sending to my staff, and that's hugely important. Most of us need the downtime. Most of us need the time away. But even those of you who don't, others are watching you. And if you're telling them to go away for a while and regroup and refresh, they're not gonna believe it as much And they're gonna see, I guess what it means is I need to be here all the time to be successful because that's what I see my boss doing or my supervisors are doing.

Mike Segawa [00:28:49]: So being a supervisor and being a leader is really a complex and complicated job. You really need to think beyond your own needs and how you best operate and look at how is this being perceived by those around me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:02]: Absolutely. One of the best pieces of mentorship I received in that regard was being able not only to take leave, but being able to turn off my phone and my email and just be like, I'm not available during this period of time. And I did that for me and also for the team that I was leading, so they knew that they could also do that when they went out.

Mike Segawa [00:29:20]: Technology, on balance, I think, helps us, but not always. And so and I don't know if you were gonna go this direction, Jill, but real quickly, in the way of our work today on campus, I have seen technology be a real challenge for us, with our students especially, student behaviors, the way students now interact with each other, way they interact with us. And on balance, I think it's provided more challenge than we found the opportunity right now. Students on social media these days experience so much harm. And how do we deal with that? How do they deal with that? The conversations we have on campuses these days are oftentimes online and not necessarily mediated. And so we're seeing damage being done to our students especially that we were not prepared to deal with, especially 10, 15 years ago when this first started breaking on our campuses. And so I see the importance of not only us, but our students trying to find distance from social media and technology at times because it can be a really difficult place to try and communicate, develop relationships, exchange ideas. I worked on campuses in which I had too many students tell me I know the right thing to say online or in person.

Mike Segawa [00:30:33]: It's not what I necessarily believe, but I know this is what I need to say in order to stay out of the crosshairs. And I don't wanna be in the crosshairs social media wise or in person wise. So it's really made really genuine engagement for our students on campuses really hard to do nowadays and really hard for us as student affairs folks to facilitate those.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:55]: I think that leads us really nicely into our 3 themed questions for our season. So I'm going to start with our question on the past, which is what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively something we should be letting go of?

Mike Segawa [00:31:11]: Continuing forward to focus on the student and student learning and the student experience. Student learning has been terrific as far as an understanding of what skills our our students are developing. But one of the things that we're not measuring well enough is, are are students having fun? Are they enjoying themselves? Are they enjoying the experience? It's great to measure their intellectual development, their social development, and all those kinds of things, but this needs to be fun, and it needs to be enjoyable. And I don't think we've paid enough attention to that. So it is the focus on the student that we bring forward, but moving forward, these are supposed to be the best years of their lives. And for an increasing number of our students, I'm not sure that it is. And that's where we can help them in student affairs more than their faculty members can, perhaps more than their parents can. That's a role that we can well play for our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:05]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs right now that's going well for us?

Mike Segawa [00:32:10]: Wow. That's a really good question because I don't know that many of us think that way right now because of all the challenges that surround us. So what's going well for us right now is we are responding to the emergencies, if you will, the crises really, really well. Go back to the pandemic. You know, that was just 2020, so it wasn't that long ago. But the speed, the effectiveness that we approach that, I give us a lot of credit for that because that was something most of us, well, hardly any of us had ever dealt with something like that. So there wasn't any playbook for how to deal with this crisis on our campus. And earlier, we talked about, the lack of appreciation for student affairs folks within the academy.

Mike Segawa [00:32:51]: I think historically that's been true, but I do think one of the silver linings to this pandemic has been especially our faculty colleagues have come to appreciate even more what student affairs people bring to the student experience. Because it was us that we were leading the way on how do we respond in the pandemic, how do we take care of our students, and even to some degree, helping our faculty members understand how can they most effectively now teach our students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:17]: And our third question on the future. In an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future?

Mike Segawa [00:33:23]: Well, I have talked about it already, John. That is we need to be engaged in what I call the public square. We need to now step outside of our academy walls and engage the publics, whether those are legislators, other politicians, local leaders, civic leaders. We need to be more assertive about going out there and sharing our stories. And for most of us, that should be fun. Bragging about our students, bragging about our institutions, but doing it in a way that we bring the data to. We can't just say trust us. That's a huge difference from when I entered this work.

Mike Segawa [00:33:58]: 40 or 50 years ago, I was taught the public trusts us in the academy in higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]: That's definitely different than now.

Mike Segawa [00:34:05]: So if we say this is what we need to do when it comes to the work of teaching our students, they will defer to us. The courts defer to us. Parents defer to us. Politicians defer to us. As you said, that's no longer the case, and we have not yet adjusted to that reality. And that's not gonna change. We'll not go back to the days where we would say trust us, and they'd let us do what we want. Even those who are allies and supporters are now at a place where, okay, I wanna believe you, but you have to show me why this is true, or you have to show me why this is going to work.

Mike Segawa [00:34:37]: And we have not yet pivoted in a way, I think, that embraces that and then prepares us to be effective storytellers of the critical work that we're doing, you know, on campuses.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Mike, is there a particular student affairs story that you would love to make sure that our listeners hear from your career?

Mike Segawa [00:34:54]: So I spent, 1 year at the University of Nevada, Reno. I spent most of my career in the Pacific Northwest and especially at University of Puget Sound and 13 years as a senior officer at Puget Sound. But for a variety of reasons, felt like the right time to leave was then when I did. And the next year, I had some colleagues, some friends at UNR asked if I would come down and help them out for a year as an interim dean. So I did. And one of the last meetings I had was with a student at UNR in my office. And she was there because it was May. And she was a senior, and she thought she was in position to graduate.

Mike Segawa [00:35:32]: All she needed was another class in summer school, and she would graduate. And she had mapped this out to the penny for herself over her 4 years. What she didn't realize in having to attend one summer session was summer session was more expensive than the academic year. So she didn't have the money to complete the summer session. So a faculty member had referred her to me, to our office. She explained her story to me, and she was a bartender at a casino in Reno, which she said in her case, she says, I need to wear a bustier to work. She said, I need to get out of this job, but I need to graduate in order to do that. But I don't have the money to finish.

Mike Segawa [00:36:10]: She needed $300 is what she needed, I think. So I had funds to be able to do that as most deans and VPs do. We have some money. So I was able to provide her with $300, and she could finish the summer session. So she thanked me profusely, left my office, walked outside. And she was walking by my office on the outside, and she didn't realize I could see her. She was literally jumping up and down and wiping tears away from her eyes. $300 did that, but it was a huge reminder to me of why we do this work, what's important in the work, and the joy that we can get from it, no matter how complicated the jobs have become and no matter how stressful they are, there can always be these reminders of what's really important and what sustains us in the work when we have that kind of interaction with one student, in this case, for a few $100.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:02]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:08]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot happening in NASPA. The full registration for the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference is open. And that means housing is open as well. So if you are planning to attend the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference in New Orleans, This is the time to get in and get all squared away with your full registration with free conference workshops and housing and everything else. Take advantage of the early rate until December 18th. For those of you that are looking at attending, the conference programs will be held at the New Orleans Ernest and Morial, Ernest and Morial Convention Center, and the Hilton New Orleans Riverside. Sleeping rooms are available in a number of hotels close to the convention center and the Hilton.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:04]: There's also a large number of pre conference workshops that are available for attendees of the 2025 NASPA annual conference that includes half day, full day, and multiple day pre conference workshops. These learning sessions will take place on Saturday, March 15th, and Sunday, March 16th. You can register for a pre conference workshop to join colleagues and experts for an opportunity to discuss important and timely topics in-depth. Now do note that pre conference workshops do require an additional registration and fee and are not included in the main annual conference registration. Most pre conference workshops are an add on to the main conference registration, which means that you must register, you must be registered for the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference in order to register for a pre conference workshop. The exceptions to that include the International Symposium, the Community College Institute, and the Undergraduate Student Conference. The Public Policy Division just released a update on a number of different public policy issues that are impacting our campuses. Earlier this month, both the House and Senate approved the short term continuing resolution extending federal government funding at fiscal year 2024 levels until December 20th, 2024.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:14]: This move signed into law by president Biden prevents a government shutdown and pushes budget discussions beyond the 2024 presidential election. For higher education, the CR maintains funding for the Department of Education at current levels. Looking forward, the binding, the Biden administration FY 25 budget request includes eliminating origination fees on federal student loans and increasing the maximum Pell Grant by $750 As house appropriations chair, Tom Cole indicated, the outcome of the presidential election will significantly influence whether Congress finalizes a full year funding deal in December or opts for another temporary measure. On September 24, 2024, the house also passed HR 5646, the Stop Campus Hazing Act, a bipartisan bill aimed at enhancing student safety by mandating that universities report hazing incidents under the Clery Act and implementing hazing prevention programs. The bill also requires that institutions disclose which student organizations have a history of hazing incidents, increasing transparency and allowing students and parents to make informed decisions. The measure is now headed to the Senate for approval and if passed, it would become the 1st federal anti hazing law. The College Cost Reduction Act or CCRA introduced in January 2024 continues to gain traction with 153 House sponsors pushing it forward. However, while the bill aims to re aims to reduce college costs, it may increase student loan burdens and weaken institutional accountability by repealing the gainful employment and 90.10 rules and limiting debt relief for students impacted by institutional closures.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:54]: The outcome of the November elections will likely shape the future of this legislation. The education department also extended the deadline for colleges to report program level data for gainful employment and financial value transparency from October 1, 2024 to January 15, 2025 to accommodate challenges with the new FAFSA rollout. The reported data will be used to evaluate program value, including graduates ability to repay loans and earnings compared to non college graduates. While supportive of the delay, advocacy groups stress the importance of timely implementation to provide students with critical information for making informed decisions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:33]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:53]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:58]: Chris, thank you so much for always keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Mike, we have reached our lightning round portion of the show. I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds.

Mike Segawa [00:43:10]: Okay.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:11]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Mike Segawa [00:43:17]: Center Field by John Fogarty. It's a baseball song. And this is gonna sound weird, but I also told my wife, at my memorial service, this is what I want played. So it's not only my walk up song, but it's my walk off song too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:30]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Mike Segawa [00:43:33]: Astronaut.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:34]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Mike Segawa [00:43:37]: That's a great question. I would say Greg Roberts was one of them, Grant Sherwood at Colorado State, and most recently, president I served at Puget Sound for 13 years, Ron Thomas.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:48]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Mike Segawa [00:43:53]: Any book by George Kuh. And I say that now, and I will deny it to George because I always give George a hard time. I always say, people think you're really smart, George. You're not as smart as they think you are. And he goes, well, I know that, but they keep buying my stuff. So but, yeah, anything written by George, I always paid attention to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:13]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Mike Segawa [00:44:16]: Lessons in chemistry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:17]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Mike Segawa [00:44:21]: You know what? It is a local sports station in Seattle.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:25]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Mike Segawa [00:44:29]: Yeah. Well, Mary, my wife, and I, we have been married now for 42 years, and she is also a former student affairs person. So she put up with a lot over the course of our 42 years of marriage. So that's the biggest shout out. After that, the staffs that I worked with at what was then Central Missouri State University and then University of Washington and especially at University of Puget Sound and at Evergreen State College where I spent the most time, those folks were hugely important to me in my life and profession and totally enjoyable. And then at Pitzer College, where I spent most of the last 3 years, amazing places to work because of the amazing people there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:06]: Mike, I really appreciate you taking time out of retired life to come back and share your wisdom with the NASPA community. If anyone would appreciate your mentorship as well in the future, how can they find you?

Mike Segawa [00:45:16]: It's easy, Jill. It's a little old school. Email is great. My address, it's in, the NASPA directory if they wanna get there, but it's also it's just [email protected].

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:27]: Mike, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your voice with us today.

Mike Segawa [00:45:31]: You're welcome, Jill. Had great fun here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:37]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:15]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

 

In this episode of "SA Voices from the Field," Melissa Manuel, a seasoned student affairs professional with extensive international experience, offers valuable insights into creating more efficient, collaborative, and holistic systems within higher education. Here are some key takeaways from her conversation.

Bridging Gaps Through Service and Collaboration

Melissa Manuel emphasizes the importance of fostering community involvement among students who cannot afford traditional courses by offering them roles within the institution. This not only helps these students receive education but also instills a sense of service and dedication, aligning them closely with the institution’s vision and mission. The integration of such methods shows promise in creating a more inclusive and invested student community.

Leveraging Global Perspectives

Manuel advocates for a more holistic and international approach to research and collaboration within student affairs. By looking beyond local data and considering global perspectives, institutions can vastly improve their policies and initiatives. This approach also ensures that practices are culturally inclusive and innovative, benefiting from the diversity of thought from various parts of the world.

Technological Advancements and AI Integration

One of the compelling areas of discussion was the application of AI and digital tools to streamline administrative processes. Manuel highlights the potential of AI in automating tasks such as scanning transfer credits and reading transcripts, thereby saving valuable time and reducing human error. She also points out the slow adoption of such technologies in higher education and urges institutions to become more open to these advancements for greater efficiency and effectiveness.

Developing Holistic Student Systems

In her current role, Manuel is working towards creating holistic and interconnected systems that integrate student affairs with academic affairs. These systems aim to provide a seamless experience for students, similar to the comprehensive view offered by K-12 teachers. By breaking down silos between departments and encouraging collaboration, institutions can ensure that every student’s journey is well-supported and aligned with institutional goals.

Personalized Learning and Data-Driven Solutions

Melissa also touched on how AI and data analysis can create tailored learning experiences. By understanding students' interests and areas of difficulty, AI can recommend curriculum adjustments and additional resources, providing a more personalized education. Additionally, data analysis can uncover trends, such as geographical challenges faced by students, leading to solutions like increased online course offerings.

Empowering Students Through Experiential Learning

Drawing from her entrepreneurial experience, Manuel supports models of experiential learning where students are actively involved in managing projects and initiatives. This hands-on approach not only provides practical experience but also promotes a sense of ownership and adaptability among students, preparing them for real-world challenges.

To round off the episode, Melissa thanks everyone who has impacted her professional journey and emphasizes the critical role of collaboration within student affairs. Listeners are encouraged to engage with her on LinkedIn or via email for further discussions.

By incorporating these innovative practices and fostering a collaborative environment, higher education institutions can better support their students' holistic development and success.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. On today's episode of Essay Voices, we welcome Melissa Manuel. Melissa has over 17 years of experience in higher education across 5 countries and 7 institutions. Having worked for 4 startup institutions in the Arabian Gulf, Melissa is familiar with how internationalization, multicultural working environments, pedagogy, and student success comes together in a variety of combinations to support student and institutional success. Her experience has also bred familiarity with many student and academic affairs best practices, as well as practical considerations and implementation outside of our common practices. Melissa will be talking to us today about starting up a brand new institution, building systems from scratch.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:07]: So in our theme of the past, present, and future of student affairs, Melissa brings rich experience to this dialogue. Hope you enjoy it. Melissa, welcome to SA Voices.

Melissa Manuel [00:01:16]: Thank you very much, Jill. I am very excited to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:19]: It's always such a delight for me to get to talk to our international guests, and tell us where you are joining us from today.

Melissa Manuel [00:01:26]: Today, I am in Saudi Arabia.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:28]: And Melissa is at a not to be named at this point institution that is building and growing in the role of registrar. So, Melissa, can you tell us how you got to your current seat?

Melissa Manuel [00:01:39]: Well, that's a long story, but one full of lots of twists and turns. So I did begin working in higher education in Canada for quite a few years while I was doing my undergrad degree. And then I got an opportunity to work in Qatar where I worked for 2 institutions. And then I moseyed on over to Saudi about 6 years ago, and now I'm in Northern Saudi Arabia. So total, I've got about 17 years in higher education between 3 countries, but with the 2 extra degrees are outside the countries that I've worked in, probably a total of 5 countries.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: That's amazing. So what are the other two countries on the list?

Melissa Manuel [00:02:12]: So my master's degree was done in the United Kingdom, and I'm currently doing my PhD in the United States.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:18]: So like many of our international guests, especially expat international guests, you've had a journey that has taken you through multiple cultural contexts. And that's one of the reasons that I'm thrilled to be talking to you on our past, present, and future theme because you've kind of seen the way that higher ed is playing out in a variety of different contexts. So what can you tell us right now about the context for higher education and student affairs in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia?

Melissa Manuel [00:02:42]: That's a really great question. So student affairs, I would say specifically in Saudi, and I would extend that toward the Greater Arabian Gulf, doesn't exactly exist as a profession just yet. You do see more of a student affairs presence in a lot of branch campuses to international institutions, especially the American ones where student affairs really does have a strong preference. But for the most part, it is a growing area. But what you see in those areas is a lot more in in institutional collaboration because student affairs doesn't exist on its own, but it's really wrapped up in academic affairs or student services or student success, which is what you see, especially even in a lot of Asian institutions where student success will really encompass both the registrarials type of side where we're looking at registration and letters and support. And then also the student affairs type of side that we see where we have student clubs and activities, internships, career support counseling. So it's really more of a holistic feeling, I would say, in this region. But with that, it does have a lot of room to grow, which is really wonderful and to be part of that foundation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:45]: Having done this work in the Canadian context, which, from my limited knowledge looks a little closer to US based student affairs work. What can you say in the compare and contrast space about what you love about this holistic student success model you're working in, and what you wish might look a little closer to the system that you grew up in?

Melissa Manuel [00:04:04]: In Canada, I would agree that student affairs at least is a lot more similar to the United States student affairs type of systems. However, on the registrarial side, so I'm currently a university registrar. It is actually a lot more holistic in the Canadian context where you generally have a registrar's office that serves both admissions and enrollment and records. Whereas in the United States, you'll have admission because it's so tied to funding as a separate entity. And I think there can be a lot lost between those different groups, whereas in Canada, I do see that a lot more closer. In my current context, I see all of those mingling together a lot more, which is really wonderful. Because again, it provides, I think, a stronger and more holistic student experience because you're more familiar with the journey that those students have come from. You know where they were recruited from.

Melissa Manuel [00:04:52]: You maybe know what kind of cultural context they're coming from. You've seen them go through admissions. You've seen them go through registration and maybe some of the points that they had at the point of initial registration and orientation where maybe they had a lot of family support or parental guidance. And you can kinda watch that and see how that's affected their student journey and where they go through clubs, what interests them, what their career paths are because you've seen how those other factors have influenced their choices and their interests. So that's what I do really love here, and I would like to actually see more of that collaborative holistic student experience in other countries as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:27]: What does that look like structurally? I think when we look at US and Canadian higher ed student affairs structures, they're kind of established and matured now and a little bit solidified in a lot of ways in terms of the way that the work is pretty vertical, meaning that we've got people that are specialized in various functional areas. And those areas of specialization have really become their own mini professions at this point. We're seeing far less generalists in student affairs than we used to. And I think that is creating some unique pathways into mid and senior level leadership as well because some of those skill sets mean that we don't necessarily get exposed to other parts of the profession. So I'm hoping you can share more about what that means to truly be more integratively collaborative.

Melissa Manuel [00:06:12]: Well, definitely the background of what you see student affairs professionals coming in internationally, and I would say that not just for the Arabian Gulf, but in many different regions. Australia is a really good example of that because they don't have a strong student affairs type of system. A lot of their local students don't live on campus, so student affairs is actually really integrated with their curriculum development. So same as in Australia as you see here, and I would suggest a lot of Asian institutions as well as maybe European too, that you can see people coming into student affairs at fairly senior levels without any experience in higher education, but maybe they come from counseling backgrounds or career development services or maybe student clubs or recreation. You see a lot of that as well. And it is really interesting having worked for very young institutions to see how the individuals that are coming in with those very particular backgrounds outside of student affairs have influenced the structures internally and the way that the university goes, what kind of resources are given because they see those things as priority in many cases. And I really like to see that because I do think it provides a more individual, a different type of set of circumstances that students can kind of go towards, and there's more influence because maybe if you'd haven't worked in student affairs, then you're more keen to see what your stakeholders have to say because you haven't been exposed to that before. And so I think that's something that's really special here, and I think it provides an opportunity for innovation because we're not so tied to maybe the education and the history that we've gone through.

Melissa Manuel [00:07:40]: I do think that there can be some things that are lost obviously in translation in understanding what that student experience means and how it can really change a student's life. So I do think there again, there are going to be pros and cons. In terms of structures, generally, what I have seen, and it really depends on if an institution is a homegrown local institution or they are a branch campus. Homegrown local institution or they are a branch campus, particularly if they're US branch campus or even a Canadian branch campus. But what I have seen a lot of the times is you'll have a director of enrollment or a director of student services or student success. Sometimes this individual might be a manager or they might even be a VP. And then from there, you'll have people that are working on specific areas, but really they're all reporting to the same individual. And I think that's something that can be challenging in the US context is that generally, you'll have student affairs or a dean of students reporting up one side and then you'll have the academic side of the house, academic affairs that are dealing with policies.

Melissa Manuel [00:08:36]: So this is an administrative side of the academic house that's going up the academic side and they don't really talk to one another. So what I have seen in my own experience is a little bit of a mismatch sometimes when it comes to the institutional voice, how policies are put into practice, and how things work in general, and the type of support I think that students can get. I think this has been fixed a lot with a one stop shop that we see with a lot of institutions now. But I do still think that there's not as much communication as there does need to be because with the student experience, it's a holistic experience. And in particular, there's some really great research that has shown that students, and this is in the US, that American students feel a lot more comfortable asking for any type of career kind of support or academic support from their faculty versus the specialists that are working in, let's say academic advising. And there's a few different reasons I think for that. One is the passion, of course, that's gonna bring faculty to the table anyway. But also, I think that they have a greater understanding of that kind of holistic map of where a student can go, where somebody in it specifically in advising may be able to say, okay.

Melissa Manuel [00:09:40]: These are the courses that you can take, but can they tell you maybe this person's doing a startup over here and you should try that, or this institution is looking at some kind of commercial engagement that might be of interest to you. And so they have a more specialized map because they're specialists, and we're kind of losing that I think overall holistic vision, which we don't know what's most important to students. So I do think a holistic vision in my point of view, I think is preferable.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: There's 2 things I've always said to team members that I've worked with, which is, you know, the students don't care how we're organized. They don't care who reports to who. They don't care really what funding streams are going to x, y, and z sometimes. Sometimes they do. But the reality is the the anchor of the point of care for a student is what is their experience on the campus. And they don't differentiate between an in and outside of the classroom experience on a US campus. They look holistically, as you've mentioned, what is my experience as a student at this institution? And that whole picture is what paints their entire experience from, you know, entry to degree. So this is a an approach I think a lot of institutions are working towards in the US, trying to make more fluid some of those boundaries that have somehow become a little harder over time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:49]: And I'll give a shout out to Chris Lewis, our co producer and audio engineer on this show, because he is the NASPA, I believe, co chair of the SAPA knowledge community, which is student affairs partnering with academic affairs. And the goal there is kind of the same thing, to soften some of those boundaries. But I also know for a lot of the US based professionals, those boundaries we seek to soften them, and we're not necessarily met with that same idea from some of our partners on the academic affairs side. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how you've worked with your colleagues to soften some of those boundaries.

Melissa Manuel [00:11:22]: Absolutely. And I 100% agree with you, with what you just said. And also shout out to Chris too. So I actually did attend a Sapa meeting. I think it was last year because I did wanna become part of that team, but then I became a member at large on a finance committee for ACRO, the American Association For Collegiate Registrars. And so I couldn't really do both, but I absolutely agree with the work that Chris is doing and making sure that academic is partnering with student affairs and vice versa. So some of the things that I have done, and I will admit it has been a lot easier, I think, for me than you might see in other institutions because I tend to work for very small start up institutions and ones that are very young. So there's not a lot of history that suggests only this side of the house can deal with this and only that kind of side of the house can deal with that because we haven't faced a lot of those issues to be able to determine those pathways.

Melissa Manuel [00:12:12]: So again, I think it has been a little bit easier for me. Because they're small or because the institutions I've worked had have been small, I have made a very strong effort to meet individually with every single stakeholder that is in my institution. So, my previous institution, the registrar's office that I was working at didn't have the best reputation and just for servicing stakeholders and that especially came from faculty. So I really made it my mission to take every single faculty member 1 on 1 out for coffee just to understand their point of view. And it was really a kind of a two way street. So I was able to really write down a lot of the priorities that they had had and be able to clarify some of the reasons maybe why certain certain things weren't happening in a certain way because maybe their population or maybe of their students or what they wanted was only gonna service, let's say, 0.5% of our student demographic. So where are those resources going? And then also to be able to explain some of the reasons why we've done things and maybe where it is on the priority list of changing it in the future. And I have done that also with a lot of my colleagues on the student affairs side.

Melissa Manuel [00:13:14]: And then again, when it comes to any type of project, I really try and make sure that we're sharing that. And a really good example is between the academic catalog and the academic hand or the student handbook. So one of the things that I did in one of my previous institutions was I rewrote the entire academic catalog with the support of my office and our senior academic leadership. But because we were changing everything there, we really needed to have an understanding of how those policies affected other areas. So each department as well as the, let's say, student rule regulations. So for example, a student goes on a leave of absence, can they still be, let's say, a leader of their student club? So So things like that and where those pathways kind of go. And so what I would do is I went and showed all the changes to and circulated amongst my student affairs colleagues, and then they were able to go through it and provide feedback. And then we also responded to that feedback, and we had plenty of meetings to help understand kinda where we needed to work together.

Melissa Manuel [00:14:09]: And again, really trying to find that one institutional voice, making sure we're using language that really makes sense. And so they started doing the same thing for us when they were going through the student handbook. We would go through it as well and say, oh, you know what? We've actually changed this, or we're looking at this, and maybe you can change that here because we had this feedback from over there. And it really became a lot easier for students, I think, to find information that was consistent across both sides, and then we were both sides were aware of why certain things were the way that they were because that's nothing that a student wants to hear is to say, oh, this doesn't work, and then somebody say, well, that department is just terrible. And so it really provided a learning opportunity for both sides, and we would have regular meetings. So that's one of the things that I really do appreciate as well is regular touch points. Even if it's just something to say, you know, my department is totally loaded right now. We're super busy and then I can say, you know what? I've got some stuff.

Melissa Manuel [00:14:56]: Let me just back off a little bit. I'll give you a little bit of space. So being able to really read what your departments are going through and recognize that at the end of the day, especially when it comes to administrative functions, in my view, we are there to service our stakeholders who service the vision or mission of the institution. And that's our job is to work together. And if we're not working together, are we really doing our jobs in the best way possible? And that sometimes does mean taking a step back on putting budgets forward or putting initiatives forward to say, does this actually serve the best interest? And I think that can be hard for a lot of individuals across the board in any country, but really to take a step back and making sure that we understand what we're there to do at the end of the day. One of the

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:34]: most interesting things to me about your career is that you've gotten to build systems a lot from scratch. And taking what you know from your educational background, your domestic context in Canada, your educational context in the UK, now in the US as well, and your lived experiences in the Gulf Coast region. So knowing all of that and kind of looking at that very unique melange of all of these things, when you build a system, what are the parts that you're keeping that you are excited about and you know that work for you? And what are the parts that you're going, we need to jettison this for either cultural context reasons or because we don't need to replicate something that might not be working as well as it could be?

Melissa Manuel [00:16:12]: Are you meaning student systems in terms of more technology side or in practice or a little bit of both?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:18]: Could be any of those things, I think.

Melissa Manuel [00:16:20]: For systems, I think along the lines of where we're going with technology and digitalization is making sure things data entry is really easy. I really don't like having to put my own staff into roles where they're just taking something from one document and manually typing it into a system. So really trying to automate that, and then if that has to happen, is saying, okay, is this really worth the time for you to do this and what we're going to get out of that? And even if we can find maybe Band Aid solutions where we use AI tools to maybe auto scan, let's say, for transfer credit purposes, we auto scan all the transfer credit reports that have maybe manually been done. There's gonna be errors, but are those errors worth having manual entry versus allowing those errors to survive in the documentation and the reports, but making sure that now we've just changed what would be a 2 week process to an hour. So trying to balance that as much as possible, and then in moving forward, making sure that we are accounting for that, the best use of our time and the way that we're using things. When it comes to any kind of system, I am really wanting everybody involved or to at least have an opportunity to talk about whatever we're doing and put their opinions forward. So for example, I'm in the process of building an academic calendar for my new institution, which is a really fun process. Are we semester? Do we have terms? Do we have quarters? What What kind of credit value systems are we gonna have? What type of grading is gonna come out of that? And one of the things that I've seen at a lot of the institutions that I've worked for is a lack of history on how those decisions were made and who was able to put their opinions forward.

Melissa Manuel [00:17:52]: So what I have done or tried to do and continue to do is to put together all the benchmarking that I can find. Say within this cultural context and within the where we are today, this is a couple of opportunities for us and then this is my recommendation. And then I circulate that out and I collect all the feedback both in person and in writing, and I put all that together, collate that. And then I do respond to various things, and some individuals will have opinions that maybe that's great, and I have recorded them down even if I don't agree with them or other people don't agree with them because then there at least there's a history to know if we did look at that or not, and maybe why we chose not to go in that direction. And I think that really helps to build a better understanding of maybe the concerns or challenges that people have and the different stakeholders will have when it comes to building these types of of systems. When it comes to policies and processes, so actually for NASPA next year, I did put together a proposal to talk about these types of things when it comes to collaboration and how you go through that. And it is a lot of work to make sure that those systems are in line across the university, but it makes such a big difference when it works for all stakeholders and then all reporting opportunities. And so I'd love to actually go into detail.

Melissa Manuel [00:19:00]: I've got so many details on on how to do that, but a lot of it just really takes relationship building across institutions, and I think it takes when it comes to that relationship building piece, is really taking a step back to not defend your department or defend your position, but to say, okay, these are the current concerns they have, and my job is to try and see how I can compromise in a way that really supports the stakeholder, maybe educate a little bit to understand. So maybe some things are accredited related. I don't have control over that, but we need to meet accreditation requirements, so we have to do it a certain way. Or saying, you know what? They do it, and they have a really different ideas. Let's see if I can benchmark to see how it's worked in other institutions. And the other thing that I find is really helpful working for a lot of startup institutions, and I think the NASPA Student Affairs community is so good at this, is having relationships at other institutions to be able to benchmark, and not only benchmark, but to say, okay, I've benchmarked this, you do it like this, what is your opinion on it? Does it work for you? And really get a in-depth feel of how things are going to affect your student stakeholders. So I know that was a little bit of a roundabout, coming back to how those systems work, and I know that's a very general way of doing that. But when it comes to technology, at least, I think everybody's in line with that is we want things that make sense, that don't take a lot of time, that are easy to read, and that can configure across all different types of departments and areas in a way that people understand.

Melissa Manuel [00:20:21]: And I'll just give a quick example of what that means is defining certain things. So I think the word matriculation, for example, or even admitted student or registered student, that maybe sound, oh, yeah, I know what that means. Yes, maybe generally you do, but on a reporting level, that can have many different meanings. I think it's really important that the systems that you're putting together are predefined and making sure everybody is aware of what those things mean when those things come out because I think that's where a lot of issues do arise.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:48]: What is a student is a question I've wrestled through at a couple of different institutions in my career because we do mean something different if we're talking to our admissions team than if we're talking to our registrar team than if we're talking to our student conduct and behavioral intervention teams. How we define that student has many, many implications. And it's interesting that you get to wrestle with that question from the moment, one, before the student has even arrived. I wanted to ask you a little bit about because you mentioned technology, if you had begun to integrate any forms of artificial intelligence or AI into the work you're doing since you are building this system from the ground up?

Melissa Manuel [00:21:24]: Short answer is yes. Again, I think we're very lucky working for new institutions to be able to use that technology very early on, and there's been some really great research out there. So IASIS, the International Association of Student Affairs and Services, also did a really great work last year looking at how student affairs professionals felt with technology and what type of technology they were using and where they see that going. And I think that's really a fabulous way to start to kinda get the temperature of where student affairs is and where higher ed is. In general, and I I think even regardless of what research has shown, higher education in general can be really tricky when it comes to using these types of tools. And Brian Rosenberg came out with a really great article last year, entitled Higher Eds Ruinous Resistance to Change because realistically, we are really slow and that does mean that we have been a little bit slower in other areas as well. That doesn't mean that we're not gonna get there but I think just having to use that technology, we're a little bit more behind because we don't have enough experience using it and where we can use it and where it's beneficial to use it. So some of the areas that have been of interest to me and my team is using AI to look at transcripts, to be able to auto read transcripts and be able to maybe make admission decisions or at least preliminary decisions a little bit quicker.

Melissa Manuel [00:22:41]: Maybe looking at transfer credit. What I would love to be able to see is request for transfer credits or equivalencies, be able to have AI be able to actually say, okay, this is the course. I've looked online. I found this description. I have the syllabi. What are the equivalencies, maybe, globally that could be used and whether that course potentially could be used for transfer credit and then providing that maybe as a manual check afterward with our faculty to be able to say, okay, this is accurate or not. So we don't have a lot of those databases really full yet to be able to, I think, have a lot of confidence in those uses, but it is there. Personalized learning.

Melissa Manuel [00:23:14]: So if a student is interested in something, they maybe can provide goals or interests or activities they enjoy, and then have AI be able to create curriculum and opportunities for them where they can get involved and maybe expand on what they are already interested in. And I think that also can be used for weaknesses as well to say, okay, I've noticed maybe across all these courses that you're writing in statistics, let's say, is a little bit weak. Maybe let's focus on some statistics work so that you can increase in all your courses. So it's not just, oh, you've been struggling in this course, but maybe be able to see holistically across all courses. So things that are harder for people to do manually, to be able to just dump in data and be able to provide trends to say, oh, look, this demographic of student maybe is struggling because maybe they're commuting from a different way and this highway is actually really bad, and there's a lot of snowstorms or sandstorms there. We need to maybe provide a couple little bit more opportunity for those guys to take online courses or something during those periods. So I think it'd be really interesting to see it be used in ways that we haven't been able to use it in the past. The other thing that we wanted to make sure is that, again, any technology that we're using can speak across the board to other areas.

Melissa Manuel [00:24:27]: And so again, I am defining what it means for a student to be an applicant, what it means for a student to be admitted, what does it mean for a student to be matriculated. And with all those types of definitions, then the system can really put that together because I have seen a lot of different systems be able to provide that information separately, but it means different things. You can't put it together because those systems speak different languages. One speaking Greek where a student means x and another speaking something else where it means y. So really starting from scratch, we've been able to try and make sure that we're speaking the same institutional and reporting types of language. That's very administrative, but it can make a very big difference for ensuring that we are knowing the trends of our students, and then being able to react and change appropriately, and pivot a little more quickly, which again, I think has been a really big struggle for higher education to be able to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:14]: Melissa, I wanna move towards our theme questions for this season. Again, we're focused on the past, present, and future of student affairs. We've had a wonderful conversation about the present. So I'm gonna ask you about the past. What's one component of the history of our profession that you think we need to be able to carry forward or inversely something we need to let go of?

Melissa Manuel [00:25:32]: I think we've already talked a little bit about this, but that holistic sense and that one on one relationship as, I mean, and this is going to happen in any type of industry and you see this a lot in corporations, is that as industries and organizations grow, that individual connection potentially gets lost because students are now numbers, they're not people, and we're focused on our KPIs. We're focused on our outcomes rather than really maybe success just means that a student had a wonderful experience. Maybe they were a b student, and maybe they have done very ordinary things that an institution doesn't feel is really, wow, big KBI check. But having made a big difference in a student's life, I think that is just as important, and I know that makes it difficult when it comes to measuring an organization's success. But I think for anybody working in this field and passionate about this field that they understand that. So I would like to see a little bit more of maybe that jack of all trades come back where individuals and staff can actually follow students throughout their cycle and build that relationship. And you can see that with with teachers as well, and let's say k to 12 types of systems is that one teacher that really believed in that student and followed them through. Even though they're maybe no longer that student's teacher, they're still a part of that life, that student's life.

Melissa Manuel [00:26:40]: And when the student graduates, they come back to that teacher and say, wow, you made a really big difference. So I would like to see more of that. I think to do that, I think we need to try and break silos, which again I do think is happening. So when it comes to a trend of student affairs, I do see that. I think we might also be more forced to try and move in that direction for a few different reasons. One is budget. You'll see a lot of institutions, especially in the US, are struggling with budget cuts. And the first place that we tend to see that often is in, I think, in student activities and student affairs.

Melissa Manuel [00:27:09]: So if we're more collaborative and working with other units a little bit more holistically, then I think that becomes a little bit easier. I think that again, there's a lot of opportunity and learning between students and staff that we can have, and having again lifelong learners as well coming through and making sure that we are adhering to that type of model. And then the other trend that I would like to see and continue to see is the international student mobility piece. So there are a lot of increasing opportunities for students to travel abroad and register with a variety of institutions, and again, I think this provides an opportunity for that more holistic piece because we're bringing a lot of new flavors to student affairs because now we're catering to incoming international students, and we ourselves, like me, might not might be non native to the country that we're working in. And then we're also catering to the outgoing students who maybe need some cultural training for wherever they plan to go. And I think that's a natural progression with globalization as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:04]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs right now that is going well?

Melissa Manuel [00:28:09]: Something that I would absolutely love to bring into Saudi, and I do think that there will be an opportunity to do this, and we're starting to see some younger, more innovative institutions do this, and I think it's great, is making a more student driven student affairs. So for example, student affairs organizations, they want to set up clubs and they want spaces and provide resources and they really want to give students everything they possibly can, and I think that's great. But research does show that people are far more invested in programs when they have been part of developing them. So I'd like to see student affairs become more a facilitator for students to grow their own programs, and then also manage them, providing students with the opportunity for learning through maybe business management, procurement, budgeting, leadership, succession planning, and really handing over, putting that all together might be a little more messy. But it gives something that you just can't get through regular curriculum or if somebody has given you all those things to start with and you don't understand or maybe appreciate the value of what you have. Then I also think that that would allow organizations to pivot and change more easily as the student demographics change and maybe as society changes. When institutions, for example, they spend resources, let's say, on building a state of the art maker space, they've hired staff to run it, they've got managers, they have all the supplies, they're maybe more likely to keep that investment. But if students ask for that space, they staff it, they maybe do the fundraising to get those materials.

Melissa Manuel [00:29:31]: It is now their project. The students that are governing that space can then pivot and recognize change again a lot faster than I think institutions can. In Texas, there's been a new, I think actually it's a k twelve system, but it's affiliated with a college in Texas called Opportunity Central, where students run businesses that are used by all the community members like a mall, and they have everything on the 1st floor of the school within the traditional classrooms above. And there's a lot of non student based businesses there that also get reduced lease costs, lease costs if they mentor students. And that for me is the ideal example of collaboration at its finest because you're maximizing experiential opportunities for students in almost every way imaginable. And then you're also minimizing weaknesses like reliance on external vendors that may not care or cooperate with stakeholders, and then also reducing overall operational costs. And I will, as a side note, say I am an entrepreneur. I have owned my own businesses, and one of the things that I love to do is time for pay.

Melissa Manuel [00:30:23]: So if I have clients who want to become more involved and maybe limited in some way, whether that's time, money, opportunity, etcetera, I offer an exchange. So for example, if a student cannot pay for courses, they can help with some of the administrative burden like responding to emails and checking other students in. And in this way, they are becoming more a part of the community and are invested in the services they are providing because they're more familiar with the client base. While I, as the company fulfill a need that I would have to pay for anyway, but I'm far more likely to get a more dedicated employee because they have an understanding and empathy in a way that maybe an external individual would not. So I think there's a lot you can do to gain a lot of experience, but then also reduce those costs that are gonna come with those things. And so I think there's things that can happen on both sides. I'd love to see the future of student affairs move in that direction and the future of institutions really to move in that direction.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:15]: And as we're talking about the future, in an ideal world, what does our profession need to do to thrive towards the future?

Melissa Manuel [00:31:22]: I I'm gonna bring it back to, I think, a a word that I probably said too much, but collaboration. And I think that comes with more research into what we can do better, more research into our stakeholders, and more reading of research and ideas outside of our own regions. So for example, I am doing my PhD in the States right now, and I do recognize I am doing it in United States, and therefore, it is an American type of model that I'm looking at. But there's so much great research that's coming out from other regions and countries that are doing things differently. And what I have actually come back to my institution about is to say, we need to use that a little bit more. And really, I think a lot of the student affairs degrees that are coming out really should take more of a holistic look at the research that is in other areas. It may not be applicable, but it might just be that light bulb to say, wow, you know, we could do it like that or maybe that's an idea we could backpack it and change it in some way. So really again coming more into that globalization type of sphere because again we're gonna have international students from all over anyway and employees are moving all over.

Melissa Manuel [00:32:15]: And again just building that collaborative, I think, environment for wanting to do a better job and really learning to change maybe a little bit more quickly is what I think we need to be able to thrive as an industry and as a profession.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:27]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:33]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot of things happening in NASPA. The NASPA strategies conference provides student affairs professionals with the knowledge and skills to effectively address collegiate alcohol and drug misuse prevention, mental health, sexual violence prevention and response peer education and well-being through a variety of comprehensive and integrative approaches. Registration is now open for the 2025 NASPA Strategies Conference, which is happening January 16th through January 18th in Boston, Massachusetts. In Boston, Massachusetts. Early registration deadline is closing on October 29th. So you still have time to register for this amazing conference and save some money along the way. This will be an amazing conference for anyone that is interested in alcohol and other drugs, mental health, peer education, sexual violence prevention, and more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:27]: I highly encourage you to check it out on the NASPA website. The 2025 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students is the association premier event designed for student affairs practitioners supporting military connected students. The symposium is your exclusive opportunity to share evidence based practices from your campus or organization. You can learn from leading researchers in the field and engage with other professionals committed to supporting military connected students. This is a 3 day symposium which features keynote speakers, keynote sessions, research policy and best practice presentations and workshop style sessions to help campus professionals develop or enhance their programming and services for military connected students. This symposium is happening on February 18th to February 20th in Las Vegas, Nevada. Early registration closes on December 16, 2024. You can find out more on the NASPA website.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:23]: The fall 2024 issue of Leadership Exchange is available, and this issue is focused entirely on democracy

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:27]: on campus. Throughout the entire issue, you're going to find strategies to cultivate active and engaged citizens. There's a number of amazing articles from people all over the country that will open your eyes to ways in which you can engage students on your own campus as we enter into the final weeks of a very busy fall season, especially in regard to democracy on campus. I highly encourage you to check it out. You can go under publications on the NASPA website to find the Leadership Exchange and be able to read the articles for yourself or share it with another colleague. It is October and that means it is careers in student affairs month. And throughout this month, there have been a number of opportunities, events that are geared toward not only providing you with a good glimpse on our profession, but also to encourage others to consider our profession. We've got a number of great presentations still coming up this month.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:33]: These opportunities are free and you can register yourself or register some of your students for them. On October 16th, we have a presentation at 3 pm Eastern. We have a presentation called Pathways to Becoming an Assistant or Associate Vice President of student affairs. If you're eager to advance in leadership roles within student affairs, the panel will discuss the essential skills, experiences, and strategies necessary to transition successfully from a mid level position to an assistant or associate VP role. On October 22nd, navigating the challenges of being a new professional in student affairs. In this informative session, you can join the mid level administration and new professional and graduate student steering committee to talk about the challenges, opportunities, and strategies for navigating the challenges faced in navigating the field as a new professional or graduate student. On October 24th, tap in and turn me up. Learn more about careers and student affairs in this session.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:35]: It is, this session is designed exclusively for undergraduate students interested in the profession of student affairs. If you've got undergraduate students at your own campus that are interested in our profession, this is the session for your students to take advantage of. Also on October 24th, we'll be having a social. The NASPA CSAM social is an informal event space for participants that connect with other new professionals and graduate student members and explore connections that bring together the field of student affairs. And then finally, October 30th, 2024, state of student affairs, a conversation with NASPA president, Doctor. Amelia Pardell and NASPA board chair, Chair Doctor. Ana Gonzalez for a discussion on the current state of student affairs, as well as the future of the field from the perspective of association leadership. I hope you'll be able to take advantage of some of these different sessions and learn about our profession, learn about ways in which you can engage further in our profession and get other people engaged in our profession.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:36]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:01]: Chris, thank you so much for sharing with us what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Melissa, we are with our lightning round now. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Ready to go? Yes. Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Melissa Manuel [00:39:18]: Born to be wild.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:19]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Melissa Manuel [00:39:22]: Not just an actress, but a famous actress.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Melissa Manuel [00:39:28]: Oh, one of the deans at my previous institution.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:30]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Melissa Manuel [00:39:33]: JSARP, of course.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:34]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Melissa Manuel [00:39:37]: I actually don't watch TV, but if I did have to choose something to binge, I would probably go back to old and faithful Friends.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Melissa Manuel [00:39:48]: Absolutely. The Huberman Lab.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:49]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Melissa Manuel [00:39:53]: To all the individuals that I've worked with over the years, everybody has made an impact in my life and then therefore into student affairs in general. So thank you to my entire holistic experience. And, Melissa, if anyone would like to connect with you after the show,

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:03]: how can they find you? You can find me on LinkedIn if you

Melissa Manuel [00:40:09]: search Melissa Manuel. You'll see all the history of me working in the Arabian Gulf. I'm always open for a chat. I love connecting with colleagues, with peers, with mentors. Anybody really that wants to chat almost about anything, always there. And you can also contact me via email at melissa [email protected].

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:27]: Melissa, thank you so so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Melissa Manuel [00:40:30]: Thank you very much for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:36]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:14]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.