In this live episode of Religion on the Mind, recorded at Theology Beer Camp in October 2025, I sit down with friend and philosopher Myron A. Penner to explore the naturalness of religion, discussing its philosophical implications, evolutionary origins, and the role of cognitive science in understanding religious behavior. Philip Clayton joins us for a follow-up conversation and audience questions about halfway through.

Myron's Website | Myronapenner.com

Philip's Website | Philipclayton.net

Highlights:

13:47 Evolutionary Origins of Religion

20:02 Cognitive Science of Religion

38:12 Practical Implications for Therapy

43:54 Audience Engagement and Q&A

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I sit down with returning guest Bonnie Kristian, deputy editor at Christianity Today, to examine tensions in contemporary evangelicalism in light of her upcoming book, In Defense of Evangelicalism.

First up, we look at James Dobson's complicated legacy and how his parenting advice represented both progress and problems for its time, and why his use of psychology credentials to bypass evidence-based research troubles me as a clinician in the field. 

We then tackle the media's panic over "spiritual warfare" language at Charlie Kirk's funeral, where Bonnie points out that Pope Francis uses the same Ephesians passage about wrestling "not against flesh and blood." We also get into Peter Thiel's bizarre Antichrist lectures, which turn out to be less apocalyptic theology and more libertarian fearmongering dressed in biblical metaphor. 

Throughout, we wrestle with a core question: how do we navigate religious language in public discourse when biblical literacy has collapsed, and when do passionate warnings cross the line into spiritual abuse?

Previous Episodes with Bonnie:

⁠Episode 306 | Dan is Getting Libertarian-Curious⁠

⁠Episode 21 | To Consider Inerrancy, Infallibility & Inspiration⁠

⁠Episode 6 | To Consider ALL the Atonement Theories⁠

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I reconnect with my friend Brian Hall to explore his family's move from Portland to rural Oregon—driven by their kids' special needs, exhaustion with sociopolitical polarization, and Brian's ongoing “reconstruction” of his spirituality. We discuss the tension between liberal values and individual family choices as Brian deliberately exposes himself to conservative religious spaces. I push back on his embrace of Trump-supporting communities while acknowledging my own growing interest in center-right perspectives, and we wrestle with questions about schooling, how to teach kids about systemic injustice and related issues, and whether spiritual practice requires suspending judgment. Brian describes finding unexpected vitality in charismatic worship with older Black Pentecostals and why Portland's progressive culture started feeling like a fundamentalist Bible study. We're both tired of performative resistance, yet neither wants to abandon genuine insights. This leaves us in the messy middle, trying to be present for our kids while staying intellectually honest.

In the Patron-only second half of the episode, we discuss the therapeutic wisdom of Brian's approach, his specific reasons for leaving Portland's school system, attempted nuanced takes on gender ideology and trans issues, and Brian’s experience with improvisational worship music services.

Brian's Album | Reconstruction in C Major Spotify Link

Previous Episode with Brian | Still Christian & Spiritual: Brian Hall (#244)

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These are the notes I just worked on: I sit down with our friend Kristen Tideman for one of those conversations that starts heavy and somehow leaves you feeling more alive.

Kristen recently received a complicated diagnosis just months after becoming a new mom—a gut-punching reminder of mortality. We talk about what I'm calling "dying fast and slow" and how we avoid thinking about death in Western culture, why that avoidance might actually rob us of meaning, and how limitations—whether from illness, mortality, or just being human—can paradoxically give us freedom.

Drawing on existential therapy, C.S. Lewis, Sufjan Stevens' darkest song, and even the psychology of Mormon communities, we wrestle with questions I keep coming back to, like: What does it mean to face our finitude honestly? Why does religious art sometimes feel less authentic than secular art? Can we find meaning in this life even when we're unsure what comes after?

This one goes to some vulnerable, uncomfortable places, but I promise it's worth the journey.

Kristen's Website | Kristentideman.com

Tatiana Schlossberg⁠'s Article | Battle with My Blood

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In today’s episode, I’m joined by licensed professional counselor Monica DiCristina to explore the question that haunts so many people leaving conservative religious environments: What can I trust about myself? 

Monica shares her thoughts on navigating the messy reality of learning to trust your own intuition, emotions, and body when you've been taught that authority figures and scripture are the only reliable sources of “knowing.” We swap stories about our own religious upbringings—hers navigating both Spanish Catholicism and 90s evangelicalism—and how anxiety disorders complicated our ability to discern what was "the Holy Spirit" versus our own mental health struggles. 

We explore how naming your pain is different from naming yourself, why wisdom feels expansive rather than anxious, and how Jesus's command to "love your neighbor as yourself" actually validates self-trust rather than self-abandonment. 

If you've ever wondered whether you can trust a gut feeling or found yourself paralyzed by the epistemological crisis of our current moment, this conversation offers a refreshingly non-anxious path forward. 

Monica's Website | Monicadicristina.com

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Religion on the News is back — (thanks to our patron Samantha for suggesting that series title!) Mason Mennenga joins me to round up the latest stories from faith, culture, and psychology.

After acknowledging the tragedy of the mass shooting in Australia, we segue into the absurdity of Skillet—yes, the massive Christian rock band—getting "criticized" for making their Christmas hymn cover sound too demonic (spoiler: the controversy seems manufactured by two Twitter/X accounts with tiny followings). But this leads us down a fascinating rabbit hole about evangelicalism's century-long panic over music itself, from jazz's "jungle rhythms" to today's active rock, and why conservative Christians keep mistaking their aesthetic preferences for theological truths. 

Speaking of music, AI-generated gospel music hit #1 on iTunes! We reckon with whether the "art vs. artist" divide holds up when there's no actual artist at all—just algorithms and Auto-Tune's logical endpoint. 

Finally, we discuss if declining alcohol consumption might actually be terrible news for the American community, drawing on Blue Zones research and my own recent reckoning with using substances to enhance rather than escape.

If you've ever wondered whether Process Theology can capitalize on increased cannabis use, why college students don't party anymore, or what it means that we're losing our shared vices without replacing the social functions they served, pour yourself a craft beer (or don't) and listen now.

Mason's Website | ⁠Masonmennenga.com

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In today’s episode, I’m joined by social psychologist Dr. James Pennebaker from UT Austin to explore an uncomfortable truth: we don't use language to tell the truth—we use it to justify ourselves and protect our egos, whether we're explaining to our spouse why we didn't do the dishes or electing presidents based on confidence rather than facts.

We dig into why we're suckers for confident, simple speakers (explaining the rise of figures like Trump and Obama), how wisdom traditions manage to preserve truth despite our constant self-deception, why we've all retreated into communities that confirm our existing beliefs, and whether the 90% of values we actually share can compete with the 10% that's tearing us apart.

James brings decades of psychological research to help explain several cultural movements, like how politicians have become less logical but more confident over the past century and how evangelical Christian institutions have trained millions of people to tune out challenging information. 

We end wrestling with whether AI represents humanity's next great cognitive leap forward or just gives us shinier tools to build more convincing echo chambers—and why the answer might depend entirely on how we choose to use them.

James's Faculty Page

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Welcome to a special episode of GenDERation Gap Culture Hour with Joy Vetterlein bringing a female perspective to the conversation with me, Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones.

We launch in with crystals and why religious nones don’t seem to engage in more spiritual practices before we each share our Spotify Wrapped ages (guess who is the oldest?). Tony shares why Hans Zimmer is at the top of his playlist.

In the Patron-only second half, Joy airs her grievances with how we’ve discussed Taylor Swift in the past, Dan shares his new nightly ritual of watching the American Revolution docuseries by Ken Burns, and we debate whether patriotism is a right-leaning tradition.

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In today’s episode, I’m joined by writer, rabbi, journalist and fellow “weird religious person” Jay Michaelson for a thought-provoking conversation that already has me scheming ways to have him back on the show!

We articulate the tension between liberal theology and ecstatic spiritual experience: why do people whose politics we agree with have boring prayer services while the charismatic communities offer genuine transcendence amidst their rigid theology? 

Jay opens up about overcoming his own "Christophobia" (yes, he wrote an article called "How I Finally Came to Accept Christ in My Heart"), and we dig into his concept of "small-r religion"—the intentional, piecemeal approach to meaning-making that liberal religious folks practice versus capital-R traditional religion. It gets juicy as we wrestle with whether this progressive, open-minded approach can actually compete with conservative religion's appeal in our current moment of nihilism and meaning crisis. Can pluralistic spirituality be effective at fighting back against the wide road of AI slop, economic despair, and rising authoritarianism??

I push back on Jay's darker assessments while he challenges my therapeutic optimism, and we land somewhere fascinating between acceptance, the narrow road, and what we can actually control.

This one covers everything from Buddhist meditation to Trump to whether my hypothetical gay Christian clients need liberal churches. I hope you enjoy.

Jay's Substack | Both/And with Jay Michaelson

Jay's Book "God vs. Gay? The Reli­gious Case for Equality"

Jay's Website | Jaymichaelson.net

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I sit down with Dr. Nathan Carlin, professor of medical humanities and author of The Secularization of Medicine, to explore his fascinating thesis that doctors have become the new priests of secular society.

We trace how this shift began—from medieval cathedrals as the highest points in European cities to modern hospital skylines dominating places like Houston's Texas Medical Center, where people now make pilgrimages seeking salvation of the body rather than the soul. Nathan walks me through the historical intertwining of religion and medicine, from the original Hippocratic Oath invoking Apollo to the 1850s when the American Medical Association's code explicitly grounded medical ethics in religion, and how the 1960s-70s brought radical secularization alongside movements for patient rights and autonomy.

We explore the moral complexities of medical decision-making through the haunting case of Dax, a burn victim who consistently demanded to die but was kept alive by doctors who believed they knew best, and examine Canada's controversial Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) program, which now accounts for one in twenty deaths. Our conversation explores the tension between patient autonomy and other moral values, the vulnerability inherent in the doctor-patient relationship that mirrors the confessional booth, and why psychedelic research needs the institutional prestige of places like Johns Hopkins to gain legitimacy—a perfect example of medicine functioning as the new church.

In the Patron-only second half, we discuss cases of medical fraud, vaccine skepticism and institutional trust, and why medicine needs practices of confession and forgiveness to repair the mistrust that plagues healthcare today.

Dr. Carlin's Book | The Secularization of Medicine: Ritual, Salvation, and Prophecy

Dr. Carlin's Faculty Page | Med.uth.edu/oep/nathan-carlin-ph-d

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We ease into today’s topic with a Top of Mind segment on two competing narratives: does having children make the future better? Or worse? From right-leaning fears of population collapse to left-leaning concerns about overpopulation and climate impact, both arguments rely on catastrophizing about opposing dystopian predictions, and I myself have not been immune to them.

For our main interview, I’m joined by Kevin Kelly, founding editor of Wired magazine and author of the "thousand true fans" theory (yes, that Kevin Kelly), to explore his concept of "protopia"—a vision of the future that's neither utopian nor dystopian, but rather a steady 1-2% improvement compounded over time. We get into the weeds on process theology, the cosmic Christ appearing on trillions of planets, why we'll need a "catechism for robots" within 100 years, and how AI might actually make us better humans by forcing us to codify what "better than us" even means. 

Kevin's technological optimism isn't naive—he fully acknowledges that more powerful technologies create more powerful problems—but he argues our capacity to solve problems consistently outpaces our ability to create them, and that technology itself carries something divine in how it expands the possibility space for human flourishing.

From personal anxiety about parenthood to cosmic theology to the future of consciousness itself—this is exactly the kind of conversation we love to have on this show.

Kevin Kelly's Website | Kk.org

Article Mentions:

https://skepticalscience.com/moving-away-high-end-emission-scenarios.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com

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