In this episode, Dan sits down with legal scholar and author Jeffrey Rosen to discuss his book The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America. Starting from Rosen's background as a secular Jew who studied Puritan theology at Harvard, the conversation weaves through classical virtues and their relevance today to the American founders' surprisingly ecumenical approach to religion and morality. They explore the tension between Christian concepts of perfect holiness and classical virtue ethics' focus on finding the golden mean, with Rosen even sharing a song he wrote to help remember Aristotle's virtue framework. The discussion reveals how the founders were more interested in finding common ground between different wisdom traditions than enforcing rigid doctrine, leading to insights about religious freedom and the First Amendment. Throughout, they examine how ancient ideas about self-mastery and virtue remain relevant for navigating our modern pluralistic world, with practical applications from Benjamin Franklin's virtue journaling as well as contemporary approaches to living well.

Highlights

19:56 The Power of the Mind and Self-Mastery

27:35 Exploring Classical Virtues

34:17 The Golden Mean and Emotional Moderation

47:04 Navigating Pluralism and Moral Flexibility

52:23 The Founders' Vision of Virtue and Freedom

Jeffery's New Book | The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined

Jeffery on X | @Rosenjeffrey

Books Mentioned:

My Voice Will Go With You

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, I talk with Stephen Keech, frontman of metalcore band Haste the Day, about maintaining Christian faith in a scene where many have moved away from religious identification. Stephen shares his journey from rigid evangelical beliefs to a more nuanced, "malleable" faith that has allowed him to adapt while keeping his core convictions. We explore why Christian bands thrived in heavy music (the natural synergy between spiritual warfare themes and metal's intensity), the market forces that initially pushed bands to identify as "Christian," and the judgmental culture that drove many artists away. Stephen discusses his transformative encounters that challenged his inherited viewpoints, his shift toward Eastern Orthodox theology, and how fatherhood redefined his purpose after leaving the "ministry platform" of being in a Christian band. Throughout, we examine what it means to be "Christ-like" in today's polarized world while acknowledging the complexity of maintaining faith in creative spaces increasingly skeptical of Christianity.

Stephen's Website | Stephenkeech.com

Stephen on Instagram | @stephenkeech

Episode Mentioned:

Episode #118 | I Don't Believe in that God: Joey Holman

Episode #139 | Christian Heavy Music: Theology, Attachment, Power

Highlights:

02:58 The Evolution of Christian Metalcore

11:52 The Tension Between Faith and Performance

23:57 The Malleability of Faith

51:00 Experiential Faith: Tent Poles vs. Picket Fences

01:09:48 The Moral Dilemma of Modern Christianity

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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Comedian Jenny Zigrino joins me to discuss comedy and mystical spirituality. Drawing from her background in Reform Judaism and early exposure to yoga, Jenny articulated how she combines traditional religious practices with what she calls "woo" elements like moon rituals and meditation. We discussed the relationship between scientific and spiritual frameworks, with Jenny making interesting arguments about celestial influences on human behavior and challenging my skepticism about astrology with observations about the moon's documented effects on Earth. The conversation took a more personal turn when she shared about her sister's passing, leading to thoughtful reflections on how people use spiritual frameworks to process loss and find meaning in tragedy.

The Patron-only second half of our conversation centered on a detailed exploration of tarot cards, including a live reading for my podcast's future, as well as a broader philosophical discussion about consciousness, death, and the limits of human knowledge.

Highlights:

08:48 Exploring Reform Judaism and Spiritual Practices

14:45 Understanding Tarot and Its Therapeutic Value

19:02 The Influence of Religion on Personal Beliefs

26:13 The Nature of God and Suffering

Jenny's Website | Jennyzigrino.com

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this third appearance on You Have Permission, Dr. Terry Shoemaker of Arizona State University joins me to discuss the parallels between religion and sports as described in his new book Religion and Sports: The Basics. We look at four key parallels between religious and athletic life: rituals, devotions, identities, and communities. From early morning Arsenal fan gatherings to how families connect through college football despite tense religious differences, we unpack how sports can serve many of the same social and psychological functions as traditional religion — often with lower stakes. With the similarities of how sports and religion both create calendrical rhythms, foster community bonds, create transcendent experiences, and require devotion, sports offer unique opportunities for connection across ideological divides.

Highlights

05:49 Rituals in Sports and Religion

11:49 The Role of Identity in Sports Fandom

28:45 The Power of Community in Sports

42:12 Devotion: Sports as a Modern Religion

Terry's Book on Sports | Religions and Sports: The Basics

Terry's Faculty Page

Terry's Amazon Book Page

Dan's Substack Piece | In Defense of Sports

Past Episodes with Terry:

To Escape "Culture War Christianity" (#16)

Who Are the "Spiritual But Not Religious"? (#82)

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Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, philosopher Michelle Panchuk joins me to discuss the "just world hypothesis" — the belief that people get what they deserve in life, similar to karma. Michelle, whose early scholarly work on spiritual abuse helped inform my own research on measuring spiritual abuse, shares how the just world hypothesis can subtly infiltrate spiritual teachings with the belief that God will always offer a sense of His presence during difficult times — implying that those who don't feel God's presence must be spiritually deficient.

This creates what Michelle calls a "spiritual version" of the just world hypothesis, adding layers of shame and self-doubt to existing suffering. Particularly harmful for survivors of spiritual abuse, this belief contradicts historical accounts of devoted believers experiencing spiritual darkness. 

In the patron-only second half, we explore the neurobiology of spiritual experience and how spiritual abuse impacts both religious practice and critical thinking.

Michelle's Faculty Page

Highlights

02:53 The Just World Hypothesis Explained

08:57 God's Silence and Spiritual Relationship

17:46 The Uneven Distribution of Spiritual Experiences

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, I sat down with Chuck DeGroat, known for his work on narcissism in church contexts, for a wide-ranging conversation about the intersection of narcissistic patterns and religious communities. Chuck shared insights from his clinical experience about how narcissism often emerges as a trauma response and explained the crucial distinction between narcissistic tendencies and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We explored how narcissistic leadership patterns can manifest across the theological spectrum, from conservative to progressive spaces, and how congregations adopt collective defensive postures that both attract and reinforce narcissistic leadership styles. Using Mars Hill Church as a case study, we examined how an "at war with culture" mentality can drive church growth while simultaneously undermining empathy and authentic community engagement. The conversation concluded with a rich exploration of psychological and theological integration, drawing parallels between Internal Family Systems therapy and how different religious traditions handle internal contradictions. This discussion proved so fruitful that we've planned a follow-up episode focusing specifically on spiritual harm and abuse, which will be available to Patreon subscribers.

Chucks Website | Chuckdegroat.net

Episodes Mentioned:

Episode #187 with Molly Lacroix | Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves

Highlights:

11:20 Narcissism in Church Communities

24:33 Theological Connections Between Empathy and Narcissism

32:34 Narcissism and Church Dynamics

43:30 Spiritual Abuse and Community Dynamics

50:35 Integration and Multiplicity in Spirituality

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

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It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to talk about current culture from across our 20-year age perspectives.

In today’s episode we talk about:

• How bands I toured with on the Warped Tour are now featuring at venues reserved for “legacy acts.” 👀
• Band merchandise etiquette, including one very cringe story from Tony
• Current events including Trump’s presidency and the TikTok ban
• The absurdity of long URLs in podcast advertising
• Institutions and outdated social media practices
• Our favorite media of 2024: books about burnout culture, Korean War fighter pilots, and the fall of the Roman Empire

In the patron-only second half, we get more in-depth discussing Joe Rogan's recent interactions with Christian figures, and examining the intersection of apologetics, early Christian history, and religious experience.

Highlights:

05:45 Political Concerns and TikTok Ban Discussions

14:47 Dude Lit, Books, Movies & TV Shows of the Year

23:53 Joe Rogan's Cultural Impact and Christianity

Best of Book:

Byung-Chul Han: A Critical Introduction (Josh)

The Hunters by James Salter (Dan)

We Were Soldiers Once... and Young (Tony)

Best of Series/TV Show:

Ripley (Dan)

Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey (Tony)

Presumed Innocent (Josh)

Best of Movie:

A Complete Unknown (Dan)

Dune 2 (Tony)

We Live in Time (Josh)

Dan's Year End Mixes:

Rock - Spotify

Rock - Apple Music

Pop - Spotify

Pop- Apple Music

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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I sat down with Micha Boyett, author of Blessed Are the Rest of Us and host of The Slow Way podcast, to explore the tension between millennial evangelical dreams and the realities of modern parenthood. We dove into how our generation's almost cinematic vision of "changing the world" manifested through movements like Invisible Children, Shane Claiborne's work, and TOMS Shoes – a fascinating confluence of entrepreneurship and world-saving ambitions. Micha shared her journey from being a 13-year-old Southern Baptist girl with limited ministry options to navigating suburban motherhood and raising a child with both Down syndrome and autism. We discussed how her experience has transformed her understanding of meaning, purpose, and what it means to live a life of impact. 

In the Patron-only second half, our conversation deepens into questions of disability, human value, and finding new meaning in the Beatitudes.

Micha's Instagram | @michaboyett

Ace's Instagram | @acefaceismyfriend

Highlights:

04:54 Generational Expectations and Identity

20:13 The Complexity of Disability in Society

30:04 Anxiety and Parenting Challenges

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

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In this timely conversation with returning guest Bonnie Kristian, we explore libertarianism and its evolving role in today's political landscape. Moving beyond the dated "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" cliché, we discuss how true libertarianism centers on skepticism of government power, while distinguishing it from a newer "folk libertarianism" emerging among younger Americans. Bonnie helps clarify how traditional libertarians focus specifically on limiting state power and coercion, whereas this new wave represents more of a cultural backlash against elite institutions. Through our discussion of government intervention, institutional trust, and policy, we explore the challenge of maintaining necessary social structures while remaining appropriately skeptical of institutional overreach. This conversation illuminates why different forms of libertarian thinking are resonating with many Americans today, while helping me better understand my own evolving thoughts on these complex issues.

Highlights

03:28 Understanding Libertarian Identity

09:59 Election Results and Libertarian Impulses

18:43 Therapy, Psychology, and Libertarianism

25:18 Resource Distribution and the Veil of Ignorance

35:30 Trust in Institutions vs. Individual Thinkers

Bonnie's Substack | Bonniekristian.substack.com

Previous YHP Episodes with Bonnie:

Episode 21 | To Consider Inerrancy, Infallibility & Inspiration

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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Turn your brains on for a fascinating conversation with scholar and author Tara Isabella Burton (Self Made, Strange Rites, Social Creature) about one of the core tensions in modern spirituality: does it matter more if a religious or spiritual practice works, or if it's true? Drawing from my experience as a therapist and Tara's background in theology, we explore how this plays out in everything from manifesting culture to ancient religious practices. I share my more pragmatic perspective, focused on what actually helps people in therapeutic settings, while Tara makes a compelling case for why we can't separate spiritual practices from their truth claims. We dig into the placebo effect, positive thinking, the limits of pure pragmatism, and whether spiritual practices might "work" precisely because they align with deeper truths about reality. It's a nuanced discussion that challenges both pure pragmatism and rigid orthodoxy, suggesting these seemingly opposing views might actually complement each other in surprising ways.

Tara's New Book | Here in Avalon

Tara's Website | Taraisabellaburton.com

Highlights

12:10 Modern Spirituality and Individualism

21:05 The Intersection of Faith and Truth

30:12 Pragmatism in Therapy and Spirituality

45:03 The Pursuit of Happiness and Material Success

01:07:10 Exploring the Tension Between Ancient and Modern Wisdom

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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Spencer Bland joins me to discuss his journey through various Christian denominations as a southern-based comedian who now takes a more open-ended approach to spirituality. We explore how he uses his religious background as source material for his comedy, including a hilarious story about a demon named Kyle, while maintaining a thoughtful and nuanced perspective that honors personal experience rather than broad critique. Our discussion brings up the parallels between comedy and therapy as tools for processing religious experiences and how humor can help acknowledge both the absurdity and significance of our past. 

Spencer's Instagram | @spencerspicy

Highlights

08:57 The Role of Humor in Religion

17:49 The Intersection of Comedy and Religion

31:02 From Pastor to Comedian

54:54 Healing from Religious Trauma

01:10:07 Reflections on Mission Trips and Cultural Christianity

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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