It’s business as usual in their 250th episode, as Chip and Gini continue to share their unvarnished opinions.

At the risk of this being their last episode, they have once again chosen to tell you what you’re doing wrong as an agency owner.

The hosts share specific examples of agency owners breaking or ignoring rules that they don’t like — or that clients may pressure them to bypass.

They talk about compliance, ethical practices, and risk management for agency owners. They discuss the ramifications of behaviors such as unauthorized account sharing, misclassification of contractors, and copyright violations.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “As owners, we think about using the agreements that we have and the rules that are in place to our advantage. We ought to be doing the same when those rules apply to us.”
• Gini Dietrich: “When clients ask you to do something that’s unethical or illegal, you have to be able to tell them no.”
• Chip Griffin: “When there’s gray area, you have to make judgments. But if it’s blatant, then I’ve got an issue with it. And I think you should too.”
• Gini Dietrich: “It’s not easy, but it’s ethical. It’s the right thing to do.”

Related

• How to think about HR risks in your agency
• How agencies can avoid common legal mistakes (featuring Sharon Toerek)

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, this is our 250th and, and perhaps final episode.

Gini Dietrich: It’s not our final episode, but it is our 250th. That’s amazing.

Chip Griffin: It is, it is. It is amazing that we have managed to accomplish that. I think that’s more episodes than any of my previous podcasts that I’ve done.

I can’t remember how many I ended up doing with Media Bullseye. Cause we stopped, we stopped numbering podcasts and this one, we don’t number it. It’s just our podcast producer, who is my wife, Jen, keeps them numbered behind the scenes.

Gini Dietrich: She emailed us both this morning and was like, by the way, today is 250. And we were both went, Oh,

Chip Griffin: and neither one of us pays enough attention to our own show to know that.

So. I don’t know what that says about us. Well, hopefully we will not scare away all of our listeners, but, but we are going to speak some hard truths, I think, on this episode about,

I guess compliance is probably the best word, most polite word to use here. But I think observationally, we have seen a lot of agency owners

certainly over a long period of time, but particularly recently who don’t necessarily think that all of the rules should apply to them. Correct. And there’s something to be said for breaking the rules in terms of strategy or things like that. But when those rules are laws and regulations, terms of service, contracts, I would suggest to you that these are things that we ought to have more respect for as business owners because we expect that our own clients adhere to the terms that we give them.

And so, when we do things that are outside the bounds of the agreements that we have for laws and regulations that exist, it sets a bad example for our teams. It’s certainly not a good thing just from an ethical standpoint. And so, I think we need to call some of these things out, because they are creating risks, it’s playing with fire to some degree.

For many agencies, but it’s just flat bad behavior and we shouldn’t be engaging in that and, and pushing that forward ourselves.

Gini Dietrich: Okay. So I’m going to ask our listeners or viewers a question. If let’s say that you have an online course that you have spent time and resources and money to build, and you’re selling it to small business owners, other PR people, whatever it happens to be, and industry or something Like that.

 And you find out that one of your students has shared their login with five other people on their team without paying for those other five courses. How does that make you feel? I’m going to guess pretty shitty.

And it doesn’t make you very happy that six people are going through your online course for the price of one. So with that in mind, I think that that sets the stage for the kinds of things that you have to think about from sharing seats, to 1099 employees, to copyrighted things, to taking things off the internet without, without attribution or credit.

It all goes into this big bucket of, to your point, the way that we should behaving as agency owners, as business owners, and as stewards to our clients, because in many cases, it’s illegal and in all cases, it’s unethical.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and look, I mean, there are plenty of cases where agency owners come to me and they say, Well, look, you know, I’ve got a client who wants me to send my media list to them.

I’m not giving them that list because, you know, we put a lot of effort into that. And our contract doesn’t say that we need to turn over the media list. And so we own it. Or they’ll come to me and they’ll say, you know, the client isn’t paying on time. My contract says they have to pay on time. I want to stop work or a charge a late fee or do something.

And so so we as owners think about using the agreements that we have and the rules that are in place to our advantage.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: We ought to be doing the same when those apply to us. And so let’s walk through some of the very specific examples that we see a lot in the agency community. And we’ll start with something that is near and dear to my heart because I used to run a media monitoring business.

And so one of the favorite requests that we always got from clients back in the day was that they wanted the full text of articles, particularly for paywalled sites to be delivered to them. So they didn’t have to click over. They didn’t have to buy an account on the Wall Street Journal or wherever. And we always said, no, no, we’re not going to do that.

because that is a violation of both the terms of service for those sites as well as copyright law. And yet, it is very frequently asked, how can we easily get full text to give to our clients? That’s a question that I get from agency owners. It’s a question that we’ve seen in some discussion groups of late.

And we need to be forceful and tell clients, that is a violation of copyright law. And look, it’s not just that we don’t, we don’t feel comfortable with it. It creates a material risk. I know of agencies who have had to pay incredibly substantial amounts because of sharing full text of articles by email.

Don’t do it.

Gini Dietrich: Don’t do it. Yeah, I mean, I’m, of course, extremely sensitive to this because there have been so many times, like multiple times every week where somebody presents the PESO model in a workshop or in a speaking engagement, they put it in a book. Well, the, the nice thing about most publishers is if it’s published by a publisher, they make you get credit for it.

So, but if they self publish a book, they put it a PESO model in there. They put it on their websites and claim that they do the PESO model, even though they don’t, or they aren’t certified in the process. Like there’s all of this. It’s theft of the PESO model where people pretend like they created it or they change the graphic to match their brand so that it looks like it’s their model and their framework and that’s against the law.

It is against copyright law. We’ve actually offered it for free. If you use it as long in commercial use, as long as you’re not making money from it. So that means you can talk about it in a blog post. You can promote it on social media. You can even say that you’re using it internally for the most part.

What you can’t do is have it in an ebook and put it behind a landing page where you’re collecting email addresses. You can’t do training on it and make money from that. You can’t do a speaking engagement and talk about the PESO model as if you created it without attribution, because you’re getting paid for that.

So there are rules and regulations around this. And so when people ask for things that violate copyright law, my head explodes. I’m just like, no, like, don’t be stupid because I think you’re right. Like, my attorney, because of the, the feedback and direction I’ve given them, they’re pretty nice about it, but they could charge people for using it incorrectly.

What we do right now is we ask for attribution and a link and all that kind of stuff. And if they don’t comply, then we ask them to take it down. We don’t charge them, but you, there are lots and lots and lots of law firms out there that their sole purpose is to protect their client’s IP and their copyrights and they’re I’m sure

at least a good percentage of people listening to this have had an attorney come to them or a law firm come to them and say, you use this photo without attribution or without paying for it on your website and now you owe me 10, 000.

Chip Griffin: And, and like you, I create a lot of things, including photos. So I’m very sensitive to copyright issues, right?

As are most photographers because every photographer has their images stolen. Absolutely. There are literally groups on Facebook where you can take a watermarked photo that says, you know, proof do not remove or whatever in the middle of a photo and, and you will post it to a Facebook group and people will just remove them for you.

Because the AI is such that you can pretty much remove any watermark from an image today.

Gini Dietrich: That’s terrible.

Chip Griffin: And just do what you want with it. That’s terrible. And that is wrong. Now, look, do I think that, that some photographers have some crazy rules around, you know, how they sell their photos and that sort of thing?

Yeah. But you know what? That’s their choice.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And, and It’s not the business decision that I would make in my photography business, but if that’s what their decision is, you don’t get to pick and choose.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And this feeds into my second area, which is sharing of accounts. And again, as the owner of, or former owner of, a media monitoring software as a service provider, we sold accounts to different clients, and we charged more for different clients, we charged additional for extra users, and this is extremely common.

And yet, if you go into most agency owner communities, or solo communities, you will see a regular stream of people saying, we would like to join a share on X service, typically media databases, media monitoring, those kinds of things are the typical targets for this. And there are all sorts of groups put together to share a four or five ways one account. That is not okay unless the terms of service allow it.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And, and it’s not up to you to decide if that’s, if that should be okay or not. You may believe, and you may be absolutely correct, that some of these services are overpriced. Not your call.

Gini Dietrich: Not your call. Right.

Chip Griffin: And so, I, I know that this is probably one of the least popular things that I’ve ever said on this show, but stop doing it.

I know a lot of you are. You shouldn’t be.

Gini Dietrich: You should not, definitely not be doing that.

Chip Griffin: If the terms of service prohibit sharing of accounts, which I pretty much can guarantee you all the providers do, then you need to have a conversation with them and say, Hey, can we set up a share? Some of the providers do have options.

Yes, that’s right.

Where they will either explicitly bless or quietly say it’s okay. And so if you’ve got that kind of arrangement with your provider, you’re not the ones I’m calling out. I’m calling out the ones who do it, you know, completely beneath the radar without getting an okay or winking a nod from the provider or something like that.

It is wrong. It is not for you to decide. Should you lobby the providers to make those options available? Maybe. Should you try to get them to offer lower cost options for small agencies or solos? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I will tell you at CustomScoop, we did detect people who were sharing accounts. We stopped them, but we did offer a lower priced option for solos and small agencies in order to be able to serve them.

I will tell you, candidly, that was probably not a good business decision because as always happens the lowest paying customers tend to be the squeakiest. We see it in our own agencies.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: I guarantee you, if you’re an agency owner listening to this, your lowest paying clients are probably some of your most difficult to service.

Yep. Because that’s just how it is.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And so you need to be thoughtful about that as well. Look, if you’re going to be using these services and it’s essential to your business, you need to either figure out how to pay for it, how to price correctly to be able to sustain it, or you need to find an alternative method that is permissible and not just you end running the terms of service to try to meet your budget. I know that’s unpopular.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I will tell you, you’re, you’re exactly right, because there are almost every service, not all of them, but almost everyone that we use in the PR industry will have what’s called shared accounts. So you buy a license for five seats, for instance, or three seats, and then they let you go out and quote unquote, resell it to other agency owners.

So they get, it’s a price of, let’s just say for argument’s sake, it’s 900 a year. You can go to, and you get three seats. You can go to two other agency owners and say, I have a seat for 300 bucks a year. I think that’s probably actually pretty low, but for argument’s sake, that’s right. So, but you have the opportunity to do that.

So go back to them and say. This is really expensive for just me. Do you have some sort of bundled program where I could resell it to some of my colleagues to be able to afford this? And almost all of them will do that with you.

Chip Griffin: I don’t know that I’d say almost all, but a lot of them will.

Gini Dietrich: I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t.

Chip Griffin: I can, but we’re not going to get into that.

Gini Dietrich: Well, in that case, I know who.

Chip Griffin: I know more than one, but yes, I’m sure you do know of at least one. In any case, before we get ourselves into any trouble here, we will move on to the next beating them out of the head and shoulders for our listeners. And so my next pet peeve is one we’ve talked about here before, but 1099 classifications here in the U S.

And so if you are an agency owner in the U S I would say there is a nearly 100 percent chance that you have at least one 1099 contractor on your roster. Many of you have a lot more than that. Some of you have only 1099s on your roster and you don’t have any W2 payroll employees. I can tell you that the vast majority of you are not classifying your contractors correctly.

And part of that is because the vast majority of you aren’t even thinking about the classification of contractors. You’re simply saying, I need to hire someone. I’m not hiring an employee. I’m just going to hire, I’m going to pay this person as a contractor. And you never, you never actually go through the steps to determine both at a federal IRS level, as well as a state taxing authority level, whether that is the appropriate classification of the individual.

And so, I would strongly encourage all of you to go through that exercise and determine if the 1099 contractors you have are properly classified. And I will tell you, if you have 100 percent contractors, odds are very good that they are not classified correctly.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And if you have a hundred percent contractors who only work for you, they’re definitely not classified correctly.

Chip Griffin: Right. Right. I mean, there are some, there are some easy things that, that are just glaring. Right. So, you know, if you’ve got someone who’s, who only has you as a client, that’s probably a bad thing. If you have someone who is working, you know, the majority of their time just for you. That’s probably not a good thing.

If you call them employees, which I’ve seen owners do,

Gini Dietrich: I have as well.

Chip Griffin: That’s not a good thing. Please do not call contractors employees, please don’t do that. And look, here’s the thing, as with most of what we’ve discussed, whether it’s copyright violations or terms of service violations or whatever, the vast majority of you are never going to get caught. That’s not a good reason.

Gini Dietrich: That’s not the point. Right.

Chip Griffin: And I will tell you that in this particular case. It is rare for an agency to get caught misclassifying 1099s. However, in those instances where an issue does arise, it’s insanely costly because what happens is whether, whether it’s state or federal that determines that you misclassified, they will then go back years and look at all of your contractors and reclassify them.

And that means you have to pay back taxes. Sometimes you have to pay back wages. Sometimes you have to pay back benefits. You have to pay penalties and interest and there’s so much that goes into it that it’s just not worth it.

Gini Dietrich: It’s not worth the risk at all.

Chip Griffin: So you should be doing the right thing. Classify your contractors correctly and you will be in better shape.

I know it’s going to be painful in the short term because some of you are going to have to set up payroll systems that you didn’t have before. Sure. And, and there is, I mean, frankly, one of the challenges is that there are a lot of people who don’t want to be employees. They want to be contractors in part because they are misinformed about the pros and cons of being a 1099 versus a W 2.

The reality is that people think that just because you’re 1099 you can write off all sorts of expenses. That’s not how it works.

Gini Dietrich: Nope. That’s not how it works.

Chip Griffin: Are there some theoretical benefits potentially, and there are certain cases, there are certain people who have special circumstances where being a 1099 actually is better.

But for the vast majority of people, it doesn’t make a material difference to them how they are paid. So some of it may be that you need to go through an education process. And I’m not saying you should never have a 1099, there are valid cases to have 1099s. You just need to make sure that you’re doing it correctly and not just

going that path because it’s the easy route. I think that’s the sort of the, the sum up of some of the messages here. Don’t do the things that are easy, figure out how to do things right, even if it’s hard.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would say as one last thing too, that when clients ask you to do something that’s unethical or illegal, you have to be able to tell them

no. I think that we tend to be people pleasers and we tend to not want to tell our clients no on things. But that for me is a line you just don’t cross. If you want my team to pull full text of articles of 50, a hundred, 150 articles every month and send it to your you and your team, I’m not going to do that because that’s not a risk I’m willing to take.

If I got caught because my team sent you a hundred full text articles that are behind a paywall every month, that that would take us down. So be, be willing to tell clients no and educate them on why, because unfortunately, not everybody understands that just because it’s on the internet doesn’t mean it’s free.

Chip Griffin: Well yeah, and look, I mean, I’m a realist. I do understand part of the problem is that if, if you say no, there’s probably someone out there who’s going to say yes. Okay. I mean, this is, and having come from the world of politics and public affairs where pretty much everybody from the top to the bottom believes that the rules are kind of elastic and, you know, you should, you should kind of just, you know, figure out how to do what you want to do and, and, you know, to heck with the consequences.

I came from that environment where it was really difficult to say no, because you knew as soon as you said no, there was another consultant or employee or vendor who would say yes. And I mean, honestly, it’s one of the reasons why I don’t do public affairs anymore.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: Because it, there was so much of that pressure constantly to just kind of bend the rules and do it, whether it was legal, ethical or not.

And it’s, it happens not just in public affairs. I mean, I, I know of specific instances, PR and marketing agencies get pushed on this all the time, whether it’s full text of articles or other things.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And, and it’s up to you to make that decision. But I would strongly encourage you to, to err on the side of the angels here, do the right thing, and if it costs you business, so be it.

So be it. I can sleep better at night knowing that I’m complying with the rules than I could if I, if I was just, you know, raking in extra bucks because I was willing to say yes to whoever came to me.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you completely.

Chip Griffin: And look, I’m also not saying, I mean, there are, in some cases there’s gray area and when there’s gray area, you have to make judgments.

What we’ve talked about here are primarily black and white. Yep. It’s just, it’s binary, right or wrong, legal, not legal, comply, not comply. There is gray area. 1099. Perfect example. There are certainly clear cut cases and then there’s the gray area ones. And gray area, you’ve got to make your best determination and I’m not going to fault you if you make a legitimate, honest assessment and you come to a different conclusion than I do.

But if it’s blatant, then I’ve got an issue with it. And I think you should too. So

Gini Dietrich: Yup, 100 per cent.

Chip Griffin: Bottom line, stop playing with fire, pay more attention to compliance, don’t take the risk, do the right thing. In the end, it will work out for you. It may be a little painful in the short term, particularly if you have to make changes to what you’re doing today,

but please take this message to heart and, and change your behavior.

If you, if you heard yourself in any of these things that we talked about.

Gini Dietrich: Yes, it’s, it’s to your point, it’s not easy, but it’s ethical. It’s the right thing to do. So, abide by it.

Chip Griffin: And we expect it of our clients and the people we work with. Right. So you can’t, you can’t have that kind of a double standard where you expect others.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: To abide by the agreements that you have with them, or the rules that are out there that favor you, and then you just flout the ones that you don’t like.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Totally.

Chip Griffin: So with that, that will draw to an end our 250th and final episode. Woohoo! And all the hate mail from everybody saying we don’t ever want to listen to you all again because you were mean to us.

Gini Dietrich: You were mean to us.

Chip Griffin: On that note, thank you all for joining us. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends. Except on these things.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss strategic planning for growing an agency in 2025. They stress the importance of planning during Q4 and consistently gathering ideas throughout the year, whether digitally or using methods like post-it notes. They highlight the common mistake of agencies relying solely on referrals or word-of-mouth without proactive strategies.

The hosts also emphasize the need for business owners to define their personal and business goals before crafting a detailed strategy to grow, warning against simply emulating others without considering personal business objectives. They touch on diversifying revenue streams and advise focusing on mastering one business development approach well before expanding to other approaches. The importance of involving team members and contractors in the planning process is highlighted to ensure a holistic and informed strategy.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “You need to make sure that you’re defining what you want from the business before you start putting together the plan for the agency. Because otherwise you’ll just be following some steps that work for someone else, but not for you..”
• Gini Dietrich: “I think a lot of agency owners say, well, I grow by referral and word of mouth, but they don’t actually do anything to help referrals and word of mouth come in.”
• Chip Griffin: “What you need to do is pick one business development strategy and do it well and do it consistently. Once you do that you can think about adding additional tactics to it.”
• Gini Dietrich: “If you hate speaking, if you don’t want to get up on stage, but you hear everybody’s doing it, don’t do it. Because if you don’t enjoy it, you won’t do it consistently.”

Related

• Agency owner growth expectations and business development insights revealed in Q3 SAGA survey
• How to accelerate your agency’s growth in the year ahead
• Smart use of content helps agency business development

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, I want to know how do we grow our businesses next year? I realize that’s not a fun, entertaining intro.

Gini Dietrich: I know, but you also, you also started this by flipping me off. So we’re, we’re in good spirits today.

Chip Griffin: Well, you know, you were picking on me and I was having trouble getting the Streamyard thing to record correctly. And so, yes, we were off to a great start, but our goal is to help you to get off to a better start in the year ahead. Cause it’s Q4, so people are starting to make their plans for the next year, or at least thinking about it.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: And it’s better to be planning now than, you know, starting to think about it during the holidays and saying, Oh, wow, it’s January 1. I probably ought to do something different.

Gini Dietrich: Or, or in like March of next year, when you realize you’re not growing the way you thought you would and you start planning.

Chip Griffin: Sure. No, that’s, that’s, that’s fair. But, but I will say that, you know, usually in the first couple of weeks of January, I get a flurry of emails from agency owners who are saying, Oh, you know, I was thinking about it and I need to do something different this year. Uh huh. Think about it now in Q4 so that you can hit the ground running on January 1, as opposed to, you know, not being ready to do something until March or April of next year.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, it’s just like you’re doing, you do for clients. You don’t start their planning in January. You start their planning now. So that’s a really good time. You’re already in the mood. You’re already in that mode. Like start thinking about it from your perspective. But one of the things I do is throughout the year, I keep post it notes, and so for those of you on video, you can see my post it notes, of ideas that we have. And then starting about now, I’ll start to put them up on big poster paper and moving things around to say, okay, this is what we want to do this quarter and this quarter and quarter.

So we have, I have a big piece of paper for each quarter. And then once we kind of figure that out, we craft the plan from there. So you. It’s something that I think about all year. It’s something that my team thinks about all year. I just keep it on post it notes on my desk. And then about now is when we’ll start crafting the plan.

Chip Griffin: Post it notes.

Okay.

I mean, you know, the rest of the world has gone digital and you, I mean, I…

Gini Dietrich: It’s one of those things that it’s like, First of all, it’s, it’s in front of me. And secondly, it’s like a quick note, like a quick thing. So I don’t want to have to open a document where I keep stuff. And you know, it’s just the, or my, I might be on a call or I might be doing a podcast recording and somebody says something, I’m like, Oh, that’s a good idea.

And I jot it down on a post it note.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, in all seriousness, it’s a good idea to be collecting ideas throughout the year on all sorts of stuff, your business, your clients, anything else. And so whether you do that digitally. Or whether you do it on paper doesn’t really matter, but it’s, it is a helpful exercise to go through and now is the time to start collating those, bring them together, talking with your teams, flipping through them yourself and just, and, and seeing, do they still resonate?

Sometimes you’ll make a note six months ago and you’ll be like, no, that’s, that was a fleeting thought, but that’s not.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah,

Chip Griffin: that one didn’t hold up too well. But then you see another one. You’re like, Oh, absolutely. I need to zero in on that because that is something that I need to address or that is a helpful idea or what have you, because it doesn’t necessarily have to be an idea of how to solve a problem.

Sometimes it’s just noting that there is a problem so that when you are doing your planning, you can try to figure out how to improve things.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So I think it’s really, it’d be really interesting for us to talk today about what that looks, what the plan looks like. Because I think a lot of agency owners say, well, I grow by referral and word of mouth, but they don’t actually do anything to help referrals and word of mouth come in.

They sort of just wait by the phone for it to ring. There are lots of agency owners who say, Oh, well, I’m not I want to start with strategy, but I don’t know how to get clients to pay for strategy or, Oh, you know, we tried that and it didn’t work. So we’re going to do this instead. So I think there’s a lot of like, we’ve done, we’ve kind of grasped at things to see what works and what doesn’t, but there isn’t anything that says, This is what we’re going to do in 2025, and this is how we’re going to achieve it.

Chip Griffin: Can I beat a dead horse first?

Gini Dietrich: Yes, please.

Chip Griffin: So, with all apologies to PETA. Look, you have to start with figuring out what you want from the business, because the, the problem that I see time and time again working with owners is that they come in and they start talking about how to get more clients or generate more revenue, but they haven’t even taken the step of trying to figure out what they want from their business in terms of financial benefit, the kind of work they want to be doing, the amount of work that, so you need to, and that’s something you need to refresh on an annual basis or as life events happen, because what you want this year may not be the same thing that you wanted a year or two ago.

Maybe your family circumstances have changed. Maybe your own personal interests have changed. Maybe, you know, whatever it is, you need to make sure that you’re defining that before you start putting together the plan for the agency. Because otherwise you’ll just be following some steps that, that work for someone else, but not for you. And your business needs to work for you fundamentally.

Otherwise you’ll be miserable. And there’s no point of being a business owner if your business isn’t giving you what you want.

Gini Dietrich: I have such a good point and I don’t think it’s beating a dead horse because it’s a good reminder for all of us. And one of the things that I said in 2019 is we’re going to do less agency work and we’re going to do more Spin Sucks professional development work.

Well then 2020 happened and the world fell apart and clients suddenly needed crisis work. They needed reputation. They needed help understanding how to communicate values. Like there was all this stuff that they needed. And so we jumped back into agency work and had a couple of really bad experiences in the last couple of years, where at the beginning of this year, I said again, so this is five years later again, We’re going to do less agency work.

I’m going to grandfather our current clients in, and we’re going to do more Spin Sucks professional development work. And for the most part, we’ve done a really good job of that. So going into 2025, one of the big goals for us is just to continue down that path. And so I have to constantly remind myself, no, I really appreciate that.

This just came over through email. It’s not the work that we want to be doing because It’s, it’s not the team that I’ve built. It’s not the expertise that we have anymore. It’s not what I want to be doing. So can we do agency work? Of course. Do we still do it? Yes, but I don’t want to be going full feet 100 percent into it.

I want to be focused more on the Spin Sucks side. So it’s a really good reminder. I think for all of us that it’s, this is the kind of business at this point in my life and at this point stage in my career that I want to build. And it doesn’t matter what other people think or say, like stay the course.

Chip Griffin: So now that we’ve beaten people about the head and shoulders and reminded them they need to, to make the business work for them and set their own objectives, you know, now I think it’s fair to talk about it because almost everybody is, is going to want to grow their business in some fashion.

Right. You know? Absolutely. And, and, and the the old saying is if you’re, if you’re not growing, you’re dying as a business that’s, you know, not exactly true, but pretty close. Yeah. And so even if you have a full slate of clients that you’re happy with today, you still need to be out there. Looking for new business because you will lose clients over time.

You will have clients that get out of scope and, and that you need to, you know, bring on better paying clients, more profitable clients, those kinds of things. So there’s always a reason to be out there hunting. And so if you are in that position as 99 percent of our listeners are, if not all of them, how do you think about going about and growing your business in 2025?

Gini Dietrich: Well, there’s a couple of things, right? I mean. We are really great at content and we’re really great at marketing the agency. We’re really good at it. And so a lot of the work that we do, just like anybody listening comes through referrals and word of mouth, but we’re really active in promoting that and in staying top of mind.

So we have the blog, we have a podcast, we have this podcast, we have a LinkedIn newsletter. We have a weekly email newsletter that people can subscribe to. There’s a whole bunch of different things that we’re doing for my business to be able to grow and to stay top of mind. And I’ll still, to this day, a lot of our referrals are a lot of our business comes from referrals. But they come from places that I wouldn’t expect.

Like we just got a gigantic piece of business that the referral came from the American Marketing Association. I don’t have a relationship with the AMA, but they know of us. and they know of the work that we’ve done and they know of the PESO model and they said, listen, if you want to do this, this is who you should talk to.

And, and because of that, so we got that referral from the AMA, but they knew about us because of all the content that we create. And that we have developed around the PESO model. So, you know, I’m big on passive income. I’m big on process. I’m big on all of these things because that’s, what’s going to keep you top of mind and bring those referrals and word of mouth in more actively than you just sitting and waiting for the phone to ring.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, ultimately you’ve got to do something, right? So, so I, I think the real problem is, is so many agencies do sit around just waiting for the phone to ring and, and, and that may not be intentional. It may be because they just feel like we’re too busy where it was too much client where we, or, you know, or, or we, we can’t make a decision about what kind of business development strategy to follow.

Ultimately, what you need to do is you need to pick one thing and do it well and do it consistently. Once you do that you can think about adding additional things to it. But the problem that I see is a lot of agencies, when they sit down and do this planning is they say, Oh, you know, Chip and Gini talk about podcasts being a great thing.

We should do that. And I was listening to these other folks who said, you know, you need to have some kind of an outbound strategy. So I’m going to be doing outreach and someone else said, it’s really important to have an email newsletter. So I’m going to start an email newsletter. You can’t do all of the things at once.

And so you need to pick something. And execute on it well, first, then you can think about adding other things. And I’ll tell you, it really doesn’t even matter what that tactic is.

Gini Dietrich: I agree with you.

Chip Griffin: It really doesn’t. I mean, it can be a podcast. It could be blogs. It could be newsletters. It could be LinkedIn strategy.

It could be outreach. I don’t even care what it is. Just pick one thing. And if you do it well and you do it consistently, it’s going to make a difference. Is it going to get you everything you need? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know, but you’ve got to start there because if you do all of the things at once, I guarantee you, it will not work.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you can’t, like, it’s too, this is what I say to people all the time when they’re implementing the PESO model. Don’t try to do it all at once because you become overwhelmed. You become overwhelmed by it. If you’re going to create an online course, for instance, because you have, you want to develop some passive income, people get all overwhelmed, completely overwhelmed by, I have to produce, I have to write the script and then I have to produce the videos and then I have to have it all

be made beautifully. And then I have to create the online course and then I have to do an LMS. And I like, you don’t have to do all of those things. Just start with a webinar and charge for it and, and build it from there. Like. We try really, really hard to say, this is the one thing I’m going to do. And this is how I’m going to use it to help me grow my business in 2025 and then break it down into easily manageable chunks. So that you’re not saying, Oh, you know, it’s June and I haven’t done anything because I’m so overwhelmed by this gigantic project.

It’s just like anything else that you’re producing for client. You produce those things for clients because you break them into small, manageable chunks. Not because you say, Oh my gosh, I have to have this done by the end of October. And it’s October 15th. That’s not how you do things. And it’s not, it’s the same thing with your own planning.

So to your point, Chip, figure out the one thing that you’re going to do and just do it really well. And then you can grow from there.

Chip Griffin: Well, and let’s, let’s talk about diversifying your revenue streams as well, because that is often part of the plan because they listen to us. And we talk about the value of diversifying your revenue streams, whether that’s simply having retainer and project revenue, or bringing in more passive income streams, as you talk about a lot.

That is often part of the plan, but just like the business development tactics themselves, you can’t go adding a whole bunch of things at once.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And, I would also tell you, you should not be looking to diversify until you’re executing well on what you’ve already got.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: So one of the challenges that I, I often see is that someone will try to introduce a passive revenue stream, but they haven’t even really nailed the their core model of retainer or project or a mix of those two.

And so you need to make sure that you are executing on that well, before you start adding in other things, because otherwise they will all suffer. Now, the one exception would be is if you’re pivoting your business and if you’re saying, okay, I’m moving away from retainer based revenue to projects or to passive or whatever.

Fine. But you need to accept that you’re doing that and it is going to, and you, and you’re going to put the emphasis on that new revenue stream, which you understand will likely harm the existing revenue stream. Because you’re, you’re not likely. I mean, it’s possible that both will work at the same time, but it is unlikely for most small organizations and so you need to be committed.

Gini Dietrich: Right. It’s two different businesses if you’re doing that, because one is service based, fee based, and one is for lack of a better term, product based. So it’s a completely different business. So if you haven’t figured out how to run your business on the agency side, it’s going to be really challenging to try to run it on the product side and to do both. And trust me coming from me, like it’s, it’s really challenging. It’s two different businesses.

Chip Griffin: And, and I would also say, as you’re thinking about business development tactics or revenue streams, you don’t necessarily have to love everything that you do, but you can’t hate it.

Yep. And, and so if you hate cold outreach, I don’t care how many gurus tell you that cold outreach is the answer. Don’t do it. If you hate LinkedIn, do not emphasize LinkedIn. Because if you hate it, you will not move forward with it. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to love it and say, just, I I’m really super passionate about this.

I want to do this. I mean, does it help? Sure. Absolutely. But I think the core thing is to make sure that you don’t hate it. Same thing with different lines of business. If you hate teaching, don’t, you know, create a course or a webinar. See, like if that’s not you don’t do it. You’ve got to get satisfaction from it and you can’t hate it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. If you hate speaking, if you don’t want to get up on stage, but you hear everybody’s like, don’t do it. It’s like, because you won’t, if you don’t enjoy it, you won’t do it. So I have one client who has a podcast. And the beginning of this year, we said, I, we, we started to work on it and we said, okay, if this is the one thing that you’re going to use to promote your business in 2024, let’s think about how to do that so that you can actually drive business from it.

And so what she did is created a dream list of clients that she wants to work with. And she started inviting their chief marketing officers or marketing directors on as guests. And they have a discovery call first. So, you know, just like, This is the podcast. Here’s what, you know, do a tech check, all those kinds of things.

Because a lot of these people have never been on podcasts before, or they’re on very few. And during that call, that first call before she has them on the podcast, she askd some questions to get to understand, like, do you have an agency who you’re working with? What works? What doesn’t? She gets, she understands that.

And then she does the podcast interview. And at the end of that, she says, you know, when we were talking before, something like this, when we were talking before you had mentioned that you were really wanting to do some more thought leadership kinds of things this year, I think we can help you with that.

I’ve really been thinking about it. Would you mind, would you like to have that conversation? And nine times out of 10, they say yes. So she’s been able to grow her business doing that with something that she’s already, that she was already doing. But you know, before she was inviting people like that she knew would help grow the audience.

So they were influencers in the space, but not necessarily anybody who was going to help her with her business. And now she only invites people that she wants to work with, you know. That she has like, they’re on her client list, her dream client list. So there are lots of things that you can do, but that the only thing she does is that podcast, that’s it.

And then she promotes it on LinkedIn with a nice video recap. And she promotes it in her email and that’s it. And she’s been able to grow her business this year because of it. So you don’t have to do all the things. Do one thing really well.

Chip Griffin: Right. And, I think what you’ve underscored there too, is that doing one thing doesn’t mean that you just do a podcast, launch it, throw it out there and walk away from it.

Right. It feeds other things, right? So. For me, the podcast that we do here is one of the things that I do, but it gets used in many different ways. There’s an audio version. There’s a video version. It goes in the newsletter. It goes on the website. It goes in our Slack community. I mean, it goes so many different places.

And so that one, that, you know, the 30 minutes that we take to record this. Plus another 30 minutes of just, you know, gossiping and chit chatting and whatever.

Gini Dietrich: Gossiping.

Chip Griffin: It gets reused in a much more useful way. Right. And so we are leveraging the time that we spend in order to get more results out of it.

So when we say focus on one thing, it doesn’t mean literally just one thing. It means that’s the nucleus of it. And you do other things to help build it up, but it’s, everything is oriented around that tactic in order to be successful. As opposed to, we’re going to do a podcast and separately, we’re going to do a whole different blog series and separately, we’re going to do a whole different webinar series and all those things.

Once you execute on one thing, fine. Start adding other things to the mix. There’s nothing wrong with that, but execute well what you’re doing first, before you even think about it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And it’s, I think it, I think it’s a lot less overwhelming when you think about it that way. Like. I’m going to promote the podcast episode this week.

So it’s going to go in the newsletter, it is going to go on LinkedIn. It’s going to go on social media and we’re going to, we’re onto the next, but it’s also helping you grow your business. So it’s helping you stay top of mind for those referrals and word of mouth. And you’re being proactive about inviting guests to be on the podcast, who you think you’d like to work with.

So it helps you in it from, from both sides. So pick one thing, you know, and if it’s content development and you want to invite guests to contribute a quote or things like that, then, you know, if it’s written, if it’s video, if it’s audio, whatever’s comfortable for you, do that first.

Chip Griffin: And the other thing I would say is that as you’re thinking about your growth plan for the next 12 months, get help, talk to your team.

Don’t, don’t do this in isolation where you’re just, you know, sitting there on the couch by yourself, trying to figure it out, involve your team, involve contractors that work for you and know your business well. Work with a coach, join a community. There are all sorts of things that can help you to do a, a better job with your planning so that you’re not just trying to do it all inside your own head, because it is so valuable to get additional perspectives.

Obviously listening to a podcast like this. That’s great, right? But there are other things that you can do that are more interactive, whether that’s joining the Spin Sucks community, the SAGA community, or talking with other agency owners, just saying, Hey, you know, I want to see what you’re seeing and, and, and, you know, how we might be able to collaborate in the new year or what, what lessons you’ve learned over the last 12 months that we can apply for each other, those kinds of things.

There are so many of those opportunities out there. Again, figure out what works for you. If you, if you like to talk with groups of people, join a group. If you’d like one on one help, get one on one help. If you, you know, but certainly use your team. Start there because if you keep your team in the dark, you’re, you’re wasting an incredibly valuable resource.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s really smart to involve your contractors because I’m sure they see things or have ideas. You know, and they’re working with your clients too. So there may be things that they’re like, Oh, you know, actually this, I had a conversation with so and so and they, so and so client and they suggested this and I forgot to mention it to you. So I think there’s a, I love that idea of, of working with your contractors too, because many of, most of us work with contractors and don’t usually involve them in the planning.

Chip Griffin: Right. And I think it’s, it’s key to understand that it needs to be a win win for them, right?

This can’t be, this can’t be, you’re just trying to, you know, suck free work out of your contractors. It needs to be in terms of, I want to talk about these things because it might create new opportunities for you as well. Yep. And so let’s put our heads together and see what we can come up with. And, and I think a lot of owners are hesitant to ask their contractors for help because they feel like they need to pay them for that.

But if you are brainstorming things that truly are mutually beneficial and that you’re not just, you know, sucking away their time, it, it makes sense for those contractors to work with you and brainstorm as well.

Gini Dietrich: 100%. I totally agree with that. Love that idea.

Chip Griffin: So put your heads together. You get as much advice as you can, put together a plan, focus on one thing and just commit to it.

And once you execute well, you’ll start seeing results.

Gini Dietrich: Do it, do it, do it.

Chip Griffin: So that’s the plan. We’re all done. And, you know, we’ve given you all the information you need and nothing else. You’re all set.

Gini Dietrich: Yep. Don’t tune in next week. Nothing there.

Chip Griffin: No, this is it. Just go back. No, of course you need to tune in next week because I’m sure we’ll be talking about something really intelligent and important next week.

We have no idea what it is because we choose our topic 30 seconds before I hit the record button or sometimes a minute and a half when it takes me a hard, a lot of time to try to figure out how to hit record now in StreamYard, but it is what it is. So, on that note, we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast.

I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the critical aspects of onboarding new clients in the agency world. They emphasize the importance of setting clear expectations, proactive communication, and understanding client processes.

The conversation includes tips for achieving quick wins without overburdening clients, integrating with client systems, and maintaining a sustainable pace. Both hosts highlight the significance of being adaptable and helpful, ensuring a successful long-term partnership with clients. They also share insights into balancing immediate results with strategic long-term goals.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “Setting clear expectations is fundamentally the absolute most important thing to do with any kind of relationship, but particularly the agency client relationship.”
• Gini Dietrich: “There are lots of things that you can do really quickly to provide some tangible results that help clients understand that you’re doing work leading up to the longer play stuff.”
• Chip Griffin: “It is a real balancing act to get this right in those early stages, because you need to show enough that it’s worth keeping you around, but not so much that you have nothing left to do.”
• Gini Dietrich: “Our job is to make their jobs easier, and if you’re accustomed to G Suite and Zoom, which I am, going into a Microsoft environment is challenging, but I think it’s important to be able to do those things for the client to make things as easy as possible.”

Related

• Setting expectations for agency clients
• How to onboard new agency clients

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m GIni Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And GIni, we have a new client of this podcast. We’re going to have to onboard them. I don’t know what a client of the podcast would do, actually, though.

Gini Dietrich: I don’t, yeah, maybe it’s a sponsor.

Chip Griffin: Could be. We get asked about sponsorships pretty regularly, but most of them are pretty sketchy, so.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Kind of like link backs.

Chip Griffin: Having a sponsor would be more trouble than it’s worth, I think, so.

Gini Dietrich: I think so too. Yeah.

Chip Griffin: I kind of like that we’re free to say whatever we want and we don’t have to suck up to sponsors.

Gini Dietrich: And we can be honest about vendors in the industry and stuff like that.

Chip Griffin: Yes. But we’re not going to talk about vendors in the industry today because that would probably get us into trouble with or without a sponsor. So, instead Why don’t we talk about onboarding clients because this is a topic that came up recently in the Spin Sucks community and of course if you are not a member of the Spin Sucks community you should absolutely join it over conversations in there and so where do you go to do that Gini?

Gini Dietrich: Oh, Spinsucks.com/Spinsuckscommunity.

Chip Griffin: Because after all these years, you still can’t get the URL Spinsucks.com/community to make it simple for everybody. No,

Gini Dietrich: it doesn’t work. I don’t know why.

Chip Griffin: In any case, go to her website and you’ll be able to sign up for it. And it’s a great place for conversations with people in house, in agencies, all that kind of stuff.

But one of the conversations recently was about how to effectively onboard new clients for your agency. And so since we are all, according to our research, optimistic about what business development holds for the future, we’re going to be onboarding a lot of clients in the agency world. So yeah, we got to figure out how to do it correctly.

Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, it was a really good question. You know, he said, there’s been a substantial amount of digital ink that’s been spilled about how to foster a successful relationship between an agency and a new client partner. But I am interested in the unique perspectives of the agency leaders here beyond the usual setting clear expectations for success in both directions, proactive communication, deep understanding of the client’s business and products.

What are your top battle proven tips for ensuring a successful agency client relationship in, say, the first six months?

Chip Griffin: I mean, the first thing I would do is not just gloss over the setting clear expectations part. Right. I mean, that is, that is fundamentally the absolute most important thing to do with any kind of relationship, but particularly the agency client relationship.

And so I, while it is table stakes, I suppose. And so therefore, you know, as, as part of the question in the community, looking beyond that for other things, I think at first you need to make sure you’re doing that. So if you, if you’re not getting clear expectations, don’t worry about any of the other things that you can do for effective onboarding, because you got to get the expectations right to begin with.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, One of the things that we’ve seen, and part of the reason I created the PESO model is because so much of the work that we do takes time, and a lot of the work that we do isn’t tangible. And so we have always looked for ways to have really quick wins and to provide tangible results very quickly.

So we can’t, if we’re doing media relations, we might not be able to get you stories placed in the first six months, but we can audit your content and create a content strategy. We can audit your social media networks and create a social media strategy. We can look at what you’re doing from a social media advertising or Google ads perspective and make some tweaks there.

There are lots of things that you can do really quickly to provide some tangible results that help clients understand that you’re doing work leading up to the longer play stuff. So that’s what we always look at is what can we, what’s sort of the, I mean, this is a terrible term, but what’s the low hanging fruit that we can grab onto and get those quick wins really fast while we’re working on the more strategic longer term things.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think the key is to find that low hanging fruit in a way where you can show the results, but also where you’re engaging the client team.

Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Chip Griffin: And I would say, but engaging just the right amount, right? I mean, it really is sort of the Goldilocks principle here. You don’t want to engage them so much that they’re like, Oh my God, they’re asking for so much for me, which I see a lot of agencies do.

They go in and they’re like, they, they asked for this laundry list of resources and giant questionnaires and all that kind of stuff, you know, you’ve got to make sure that what you’re asking for is what you really need in the moment. But you do need to do that because otherwise they’re not having that interaction.

You’re not learning how they work. They’re not seeing how you work. And so you need to do the right amount of that in order to be effective.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s really about you know, understanding how they work. I see a lot of agencies say, well, this is the process we use. This is the project management software we use.

This is, you know, we won’t use Teams or Outlook or Microsoft documents. I think that’s a mistake. Our job is to make their jobs easier, and if you’re accustomed to G Suite and Zoom, which I am, going into a Microsoft environment is challenging, but I think it’s important to be able to do those things for the client to make things as easy as possible.

So one of the first questions we ask is, usually you know, if they’re using teams or, or zoom, or if they’re using Microsoft or Google, but do you have a project management software that you prefer to use? Can we incorporate ourselves into that? I actually just had this conversation with somebody and they’re like, we still use spreadsheets.

And I was like, okay, well, maybe we could. evolve to software so that we’re not using spreadsheets anymore. But so there are some caveats to that, right? But it’s really about under trying to integrate yourself into their process. What, when are their meetings that you can glom onto without having to have more meetings. Those kinds of things without being able to do the, do your job without giving them more work to do.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and look, I mean, I do think that it’s, it’s reasonable for you to suggest your solutions, but you can’t force your solutions. So if you do have a preferred project management thing, I’m okay with you saying to the client, typically we use this, does that work for you?

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And, and that’s fine, but telling them this is what we use, period.

You need to adapt to us. That’s wrong. Your role as an agency is to serve the client. That doesn’t mean you need to just, you know, capitulate on absolutely everything. There are certainly, you know, bright lines that you don’t want to cross because it becomes unprofitable work or ineffective work.

But you need to figure out what those really are and not just because, well, we always use zoom and I’m, I’m never using Teams. I mean, I’ll be honest. I hate Teams. Teams hates me. Teams logs me out all the time. It doesn’t let me use my camera correctly. It’ll shut my camera off in the middle of the, it does awful things to me.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: So be it. If I have a client who uses Teams,

I suck it up and I use Teams. Right? You just learn to deal with it.

Gini Dietrich: Right. Right.

Chip Griffin: That doesn’t mean that if I’m setting up the meeting, I’m probably not going to default to setting it up as Zoom unless they tell me that their organization can’t use Zoom for some reason, which some IT departments do block certain programs just for the heck of it, really, because, you know, IT guys like to do those things.

Gini Dietrich: They do. It actually, as an aside, Scott Monty just posted on threads the other day, I have a meeting on Teams in two hours. So I’m going to log in now so I can be ready. It’s this big joke that it’s terrible. And yet people still use it as that was an aside, but

Chip Griffin: it is what it is. But, but part of that onboarding process is to understand.

You know, what are, what are their pain points? What are the things that they care about? And where do you need to adapt versus where you can simply work with the process that you prefer? And, and it is, there’s going to be give and take in this kind of relationship. It can’t just be, I mean, no side is going to quote unquote win everything, but you need to try to accommodate the client as much as possible and only push back if for some reason it’s going to cause a real problem, not just because it’s inconvenient or you don’t like it or that kind of thing.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think going back to your setting clear expectations earlier, it, that’s really important too, because there are going to be things that are non negotiables for you, and there are going to be certain things that are non negotiables for them as well.

And so understanding those at the beginning of the relationship helps to ensure that there’s smooth sailing going forward. So part of where we talk about our non-negotiables is in the very first meeting. You know, we don’t do this, this and this. We have to have access to your Google Analytics. We have to have access to your marketing automation software.

We have to have access to your website. We have to have access to your social media accounts. If you’re not willing to give us access to those things, we can’t help you. So, setting those expectations and being very clear about them up front is going to help you in the long run.

Chip Griffin: And by the way, if you’re asking for those things, you darn sure need be able to explain why you need that access and how you’re going to use it.

Because again, I’ve seen a lot of agencies who just have a laundry list of things that they request, even if the particular project may not require that particular kind of access or what have you. So you need to make sure that particularly larger organizations that have IT departments and complicated rules and that kind of stuff.

Don’t make the client go through the process. Don’t go through the process yourself if you’re not actually going to take advantage of what you’re getting access to. So make sure that you’re really targeting those requests appropriately and that you, whoever’s asking for it can explain why you need to have that particular access.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Don’t just listen to us and say, Oh, okay, I have to have access to all this stuff and then not know why.

Chip Griffin: Right, because it’s, and it may not be for every project that you need it. There may be some projects where you’re doing work with a client where you simply don’t need to have access to their website or their Google Analytics or whatever.

Probably in most cases you do, but make sure that there’s an actual reason for it and you can articulate that when someone says, Well, wait, why do you actually need that? What are you going to do with that information? And by the way, then you actually have to do what you say you’re going to do. So you don’t just say, well, we need it because it helps us to target effectively, and then six months later, you still haven’t accessed the Google analytics that you have access to.

Right? That’s irresponsible. You’ve caused pain for the client for no good reason. And you need to remember that again, your job is to make the client’s life easier, not more difficult. And in large organizations, having access to these things inevitably causes heartburn on their side because they’ve got to go through some kind of process.

They don’t because they don’t want to It’s not like dealing with a small business, like your own agency, where, oh sure, I’ll just go in, I’ll log in, I’ll give you access to Google Analytics. They probably have to fill out some form and go to some other department and get the access there, and then the IT department says, well, wait a minute, why do we get access to that?

Right, right, right. What is this email address that has access? I don’t understand this, this, that.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: Don’t do it.

Gini Dietrich: Yes. So, Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, I just wrote a blog post on growth hacking and granted it’s specific to PR firms. So keep, keep that in mind when we, when I talk about this, but I think it works across agencies overall, which is growth hacking or quick wins that you can get.

And from a PR perspective, it’s things like creating a database or a bank of statistics that are specific to your industry or your organization that you can use in media relations. It’s having, it’s creating a small group of subject matter experts who will quickly respond to things that you need, like a quote for a journalist request or a quote for a blog post or a quick 30 second video that you’ll post on social media.

Create that group, small group of people that are experts that you can use pretty consistently that will be that are willing to give you that time. Not everybody is. Build an employee advocacy program where you’re working with employees internally to not only understand what their wants, needs and desires are, but also how they will help you promote some of your work.

So there are some things that you can do really quickly. Like I said, as you’re starting out so that you, it gives you a more runway to be able to strategically plan and do the things that you need to do the right way.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And I do want to offer a cautionary note on these quick wins though, because you need to be careful that in your zeal to show the client, just how effective you are, that you don’t empty your quiver of arrows too quick, because I see a lot of agencies that come out of the gate really strong and they’re doing lots of great stuff and they’re telling their team, Hey, let’s, you know, let’s bend over backwards. Let’s get everything we can for them. Let’s, you know, we, we got to show them these quick wins in order to, to make the relationship sticky.

It needs to be a sustainable pace. Yeah. So if, if you exhaust every idea you have or every target outlet you get into in the first, you know, three to six months, now, what’s next. Right. So you need, you need to, yes, have those short term wins, but you need to have that longer term understanding of what your plan is.

And it reminds me of a number of years ago, I was running a half marathon in DC. And I had not looked at the course map. In advance, because DC was a place I ran in all the time. I’m like, Oh yeah, I got this. And, and I thought I knew what the route was.

Gini Dietrich: Oh no.

Chip Griffin: And so I came out very strong, not realizing that this course took a weird hook up into some hills in DC.

DC was largely flat. I thought this was going around the monuments, which I ran all the time. It was flat. And instead we all of a sudden made a turn and I’m like, Oh, Oh, there’s a hill here. I should have come out a lot more slowly. So I had a little more gas in the tank here to get up and through these hills in this part of DC.

And so you need to be thinking about those kinds of things and making sure that you’re not coming out so fast and so strong that you either you can’t meet the expectations you’ve now created. Right. Even if they weren’t originally agreed to, and you also need to make sure that you’re not over servicing so much that if you maintain that pace, you can never do the work profitably.

So it is a real balancing act to get this right in those early stages, because you need to show enough that it’s worth keeping you around, but not so much that you have nothing left to do.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So think about it like in phases, if you’re going to be doing a content marketing program for instance, then the first phase is doing a really strong content audit.

This is what they have. This is what they need. This is where some gaps are. This is what we can refresh. This is what we can repurpose. And then presenting that to them within the first 30 days. That’s a quick win, but you’re going to use that. And it’s tangible, right? You’re going to use that to propel your content marketing program forward for many months, if not years.

So doing it in phases and saying, okay, if we do this, it’s going to give us a quick win and something tangible to show them that we’re working, but it’s going to do this into the next phase. And then this phase we’ll do this into the next phase. So it allows you to do that without emptying your, all of your arrows.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think that’s just so vitally important because if you that we’ve talked about this before. If you start over servicing at any point, whether that’s during the onboarding phase or somewhere in the middle, it’s really difficult to walk that back.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And so you really need to know what you’re actually putting in in terms of inputs so that you can control that in such a way that you’re still showing results but it is being done profitably. And and if for some reason you know that your process just requires this much extra work up front then you need to figure out how to message that to the client, either by charging an onboarding fee or say, one of the things I used to do was say for this kind of work, because it requires so much upfront, we do have a minimum commitment of time that we don’t usually have. Because I think everybody knows my general view is all agreements ought to be month to month.

And they were generally speaking, but if I knew there was going to be a lot of front loaded work, I’d say, well, look, we need to have a minimum of three to six months or whatever the number was in order to make sure that we broke even. And so they understood that we would be doing more work in those early stages, but it would taper off.

And so you need to be really crystal clear about these things. If for some reason your process requires a lot more upfront work so that the client doesn’t expect that you will keep up that pace for a long period of time afterwards.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really, I mean, it’s smart to look at how can we demonstrate results fairly quickly. How can we ensure that it’s a pace that we can keep up? How can we create trust and accountability quickly? That’s another one. How do we do this in a way that’s beneficial to both parties so that we can, can continue to grow together?

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and the last thing I would add is communication, right?

I mean, we talk all the time about how we are communicators and yet we are often bad at communicating. And, and so we need to be thinking about how we’re communicating these things to the client. Again, it’s that balancing act, you know, not too much, not too little. We need to make sure that it’s sustainable.

We need to make sure that we understand how they prefer to be communicated with, because we’re not going to figure that out during the prospect phase. We’re going to figure that out during the on boarding. We may learn a little bit during the prospecting phase, but we’ve talked before about how prospecting is a really short actual level of interaction with the client.

Now you’re onboarding. Now you need to figure out, how do they prefer? Do they prefer meetings? Do they prefer emails? Do they prefer Slack? What, how do they take that information and it may be different for different levels within that organization that you’re communicating with and so you need to figure those things out.

How long does it take them to respond right? You can’t simply say, well, I’m going to communicate this to you and I expect a response within 24 hours,

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: If that’s not how they function,

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: A lot of large organizations, it takes a while for them to respond and no matter how much you say, well, who do you have to get approval from on it?

They may not either want to tell you, or they may not, they may not even fully understand their own process anyway. So you just need to sort of observe things. And if you know that it takes three or four days for them to get back to you on a particular request, leave that amount of time to get the response.

Don’t, don’t. Go to them and say, I need your response in 24 hours or this thing goes away, right? That can happen occasionally if the weird thing just pops up out of the blue, but you can’t be doing that every time.

All the time. Yeah.

You have to make sure that you’re understanding how they are communicating So that you are fitting in again to their system and their way of doing things not forcing them to do it your way

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

And I think you’ll find, you know, as you do that, there’ll be peaks and valleys and give and go, and sometimes it’ll work and sometimes you’ll have to readjust and, you know, but it’s really about setting the expectations, being clear about it and giving them enough time in their process to be able to respond to you.

Chip Griffin: Right.

Because the last thing that you want them to do is feel that you are burdening them in any way that you’re spamming them, that you’re asking too much of them, that you’re not doing enough for them, that you, you need to be helpful and you need to be viewed as helpful and anything that you do that goes outside of that is going to threaten your successful onboarding.

So keep that in mind that you are there to help, you are there to serve.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And the last thing I will say is that most companies hire agencies because they need the extra help and they need the extra thinking. And the bigger the company gets, the client gets. the more you find that their internal teams are really just project managers who understand the process internally and they’re not true comms or marketing professionals.

So you are truly the expert and inserting yourself and your expertise into their process is one of the best things that you can do.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. You are at the end of the day, arms and legs.

Gini Dietrich: That’s right.

Chip Griffin: Like it or not.

Gini Dietrich: It’s exactly right.

Chip Griffin: And so on that note, we’re done being your arms and legs for today.

Gini Dietrich: Oh boy. Sometimes you nail it and sometimes.

Chip Griffin: No, sometimes I don’t. Today is one of those days where clearly a failure.

Gini Dietrich: It’s because of your cold.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, that’s right. Yes, that’s what I’m blaming it on, you know, the cold has gotten to my brain and Something I don’t know. Anyway, on that note we’re gonna draw this episode to a close because as often what happens we are going way off the rails I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m GIni Dietrich

Chip Griffin: and it depends

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of having clear alcohol policies in agencies. They explore the evolving norms of alcohol consumption in professional settings, the necessity of having written rules, and the implications for office events, client meetings, and expenses.

Drawing on their experiences and insights from expert Patrick Rogan of Ignition HR, the hosts emphasize the need for leadership to set examples and consider the legal and liability aspects of alcohol use. They suggest practical guidelines for limiting alcohol use to ensure professionalism and reduce risks.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “My baseline is you should have rules about alcohol in place because it makes life easier for everybody. What those rules are… now that’s where it gets a little bit more complicated.”
• Gini Dietrich: “In today’s day and age, everybody expects to have some sort of policy around it and it’s a really easy way to protect yourself and avoid taking the risk. Get something in writing and enforce it as needed.”
• Chip Griffin: “Focus on leading by example here. The policies that you have need to be the same ones that you are adhering to because it makes it so much easier to enforce it.”
• Gini Dietrich: “Most clients expect the agency to pick up the bill. So having a no alcohol expensed policy doesn’t work from that perspective.”

Resources

• Agency policies on using and expensing alcoholic beverages

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: Gini, I need a drink.

Gini Dietrich: Awesome. Let’s do it.

Chip Griffin: You know, I, I have thought about how sometimes we should do like, you know, an Agency Leadership Podcast happy hour show where we are actually just drinking and we can start to give even more unvarnished opinions than what we usually do, but, but given how blunt we tend to be, I do get some criticism occasionally from folks about how blunt I can be.

That may not be the best idea.

Gini Dietrich: I think it’s a great idea. We should do it. We should definitely do it.

Chip Griffin: But if we do it, we probably ought to have some policies around it. Probably. It’s important to have rules for your business around alcohol.

Gini Dietrich: Yes. You actually did a little bit of digging and research on this to see how many agency owners have a policy on alcohol use and what it might be.

So let’s talk about that because I think it’s interesting and it’s definitely something that we should all be thinking about if we don’t already have a policy in place.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, it is certainly something that, that I hadn’t given a whole lot of thought to in recent years, but, over the last few months, I’ve been asked by a few different agency owners about alcohol policies in terms of, use in office environments, as well as, expensing, particularly when travel or they’re at events, that kind of thing.

And so, you know, most of the time when I get questions, I have my immediate answer, I’m like, this is, this is what you should do. And it’s, it’s built up over the years. But alcohol is one of those things that there’s been a real evolution over the course of my career. When I first started working in Washington in the early 1990s, it was incredibly common to have martinis at lunch.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: This was not the 1950s. It wasn’t multiple martinis, a martini, but it was very common.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And then by the mid 90s, it had transitioned from martinis to wine. And because it was wine, sometimes it was two glasses of wine. And then as we moved into the later 90s, it went down to one glass of wine. And then over time, it basically went to no alcohol at all at lunch.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And, and in general, I would say that, You know, in the last 10 or 15 years when I was on business travel, if you had alcohol at a business lunch, it was the exception rather than the rule.

Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yep.

Chip Griffin: But happy hours have been and continue to be very popular. Lots of agencies have had them in the office.

I know I have. Mm hmm. Sometimes at restaurants or bars.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: Certainly when traveling, it’s incredibly common if you’re out with clients or prospects to have alcohol. And to expense it. But those things have all shifted over time. And so it is, I think, worthwhile to look at. What should agencies be doing today?

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right.

I mean, we, you know, when we had an office, we always had wine, wine Fridays, wine 30 on Friday, 4 30 Fridays. And I provided the alcohol for my team. So everybody on Friday afternoon would have a little happy hour at the office and then go start their weekends. And like you, you know, we always, it wasn’t, wasn’t lunch every day, but Fridays, we definitely had drinks at lunch.

I could personally can’t do that anymore because I would fall asleep. I’d be sitting at my desk like, but I also think there’s something to be said for, you know, I think lots of people go to conferences, they go to sales meetings and they just put one, tie one on and there are lots of regrets the next day.

So I think there’s something to be said for limiting or putting a policy around limiting what your team can do, especially when clients are around. Because it’s not always appropriate to tie one on with the people that, that pay for your services.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I, and I think that, you know, , so some of this comes down to some good common sense and thought about.

Particularly you as an owner are doing things. Part of it does come down to actually having written policies for your team in part, because your employees want to know what the rules are. Sure. Absolutely. And it’s helpful for them to know what they are so that they don’t have to, you know, keep coming to you.

You know, hey mom and dad, can I have a drink at this event or that event? You know, can I expense it? Or worse, they do expense it. They come to you after the fact and you say, no, I’m not paying for that.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And that obviously is a very uncomfortable conversation, to have. So, you know, I, I think my, my baseline is you should have rules in place because it makes life easier for everybody. What those rules are…

now that’s where it gets a little bit more complicated. And I do think it’s important that you, as the owner live by these rules as well. Because it’s very, very difficult in any kind of policy where they see the owner doing something wildly different from what they do. And so if you want some exceptions, then you need to, to design your policy in such a way that the exceptions you want actually fit into an overall rules structure as opposed to, well, it’s whenever I feel like it, I can do it, because that, that doesn’t set a good example for your team.

Gini Dietrich: So, and I don’t know what the liability is either, like around having alcohol that you provide alcohol at work and then somebody gets in a car accident or something or gets a DUI, there’s probably some liability there too. So I think you have to be really thoughtful about how you approach this and what, what you allow and what you don’t allow, what you do.

Like it used to be that I could go get my hair cut and my hairdresser would provide a glass of wine. And because of the liability on that, they stopped doing that, which kind of sucks that you get punished for one person’s behavior. But, like they got sued because one person had too many drinks while they were getting their haircut and got a DUI.

So there, there is that piece of it that you have to be thoughtful about as well. So it’s not just thinking about it from the perspective of, you know, what kinds of things do I want to do? Do I want to be able to go out and order a bottle of wine with, the client and have an expense, or do we charge it back to them or whatever?

It’s more than that. It’s talking to your insurance company. It’s talking to your attorney. It’s ensuring that you’re protected as well, because there can be a lot that come back to get you without you even realizing it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I, I think, you know, obviously we’re not lawyers or, you know, insurance agents or any of that kind of stuff, but you know, ultimately you do need to make some decisions about how much risk you’re willing to take because there’s, I mean, certainly there’s, you can’t get to a, a no risk situation in anything that you do in life or in business. But, you know, one of the things that I did with my own businesses was I tended to move away from hosting anything within the office that involved alcohol, because then it made it too easy if someone were to get into an accident. And people, even if the alcohol wasn’t the actual cause, the reality is in today’s society that people will sue just about anybody and they’ll look for the deepest pockets they can find, which is rarely the individual who did something and it’s usually someone upstream from that. And so I felt more comfortable paying for happy hours in restaurants or bars, because then at least a, a bunch of the burden shifts to them to make judgments on over serving and those kinds of things. It doesn’t mean that you’ve eliminated your exposure, but in my view, at least I felt I had shifted enough of it.

To quote unquote professionals, right? Because they have to have some level of training in order to do that. Whereas in the office, it’s just alcohol sitting on a conference table. Usually everybody kind of pour their own, and then it’s on you as the owner to say, no, no, you look like you’ve had too much, which you don’t really want to be in that position with employees, right?

Generally speaking anyway. So, you know, but, but you need to decide as an owner, what you’re comfortable with from a risk standpoint, it’s also good if you’re going to be hosting these things or paying for happy hours for your team to talk to your insurance agent and make sure that your current coverages allow for some level of protection for you in the event that something were to happen. Because you always want to think through what, what are the worst case scenarios that could realistically happen.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And, and then decide, is that a risk you’re willing to take?

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think, you know, there you, I think we’ve all experienced this where you go to a conference and you’ve paid for the ticket and everything and the meal plan and they give you two tickets for drinks at the opening night event. The reason they do that is so that they don’t killed on expensive drinks, but also for the liability piece of it.

So there are opportunities where you can say, Hey, let’s all go out and the first round’s on me. You can do stuff like that. And then whatever happens after that, and after you leave, the liability and the risk to you is a lot less because you paid for the first drink, that was it on the company dime, you left. Then they can go on their weekend, do their weekends and whatever happens to be, so you’re less liable from that perspective.

Chip Griffin: Right, and I do think that You know, you need to, as you say, you, you know, you, you kind of limit it and then you go away. Right. So that you’re not part of it. I, you know, I, and I do think, I mean, in the olden days, that was very common, right? You had, you hosted the holiday party and all the senior management left so that the, the quote unquote kids could have their fun.

I think even today, we need to be careful about that though. Because there are other things that can happen during those times. I mean, you know, I can’t tell you the number of stories I’ve heard about holiday parties. Oh, sure. Even in very recent years, in the last three or four years, where things have gone wildly wrong from an HR standpoint.

And so, you need to think about whether, whether that, that old fashioned notion of senior management leaves and lets everybody have fun still works in 2024. I, honestly, I’m not sure it does. And I, I think if I had a larger business, I’m not sure that I would. I think that I would stick around for the entirety of it and, and perhaps curtail it sooner.

And if people want to go do an after party somewhere else or whatever, that’s fine. But I, I would be reluctant to allow some of the shenanigans that I know went on in, in olden days as it were.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think the difference is like, I had that experience too, when I worked at the large agency that senior, like we would have a holiday party or our annual meeting and senior leadership would leave, but the bar was still open and the party was still going, the company was still paying for it, even though senior leadership had left. Like from my perspective, I would say first rounds on me buy the first round of drinks.

And then I like, that’s it. That’s all the company’s doing. You’re at a restaurant. You guys can go to a different bar. You can stay here. Like, but you you’re on your own after this. And I think that taking down the liability from that perspective helps.

Chip Griffin: And so, you know, one of the things as we think about all of these questions, , I went to my friend Patrick Rogan from IgnitionHR, who is my go to on HR things because I recognize where I’ve hit the limits of my real knowledge and where I’m just kind of making stuff up, which sometimes it’s okay to make stuff up, but in the areas like this, probably better to get a little bit of guidance.

And so I asked him for his perspective on it. And so in the article that I wrote on the SAGA website, and we’ll link that in the show notes. He actually provided a paragraph of suggested text for your employee handbook on alcohol use, but I think that the key thing in there is it says that in no event may an employee consume alcoholic beverages to the point of intoxication.

And so I think that, you know, you want, it’s, sometimes you want to be able to say, well, you know, you can have one drink or two drinks, but the problem is that those all impact that people differently differently. Sure. , you know, there’s a, there’s a local restaurant, here, in New Hampshire that serves what I call bathtub martinis, because I think they have, literally the equivalent of two to three martinis in the glasses, these giant glasses, which frankly I hate. I love a good martini. I do not like them in those glasses because if you drink it at a reasonable pace, it is warm by the time you’re done.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: So I’m very much, I like the old school, very small martini glasses. Then I can have two or three and still be fine.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And it’s all cold and enjoyable throughout the whole time, because I’m not, I don’t generally, particularly at this point in my life, go out and just drink to get drunk.

Gini Dietrich: No. Right.

Chip Griffin: That is, that is not my idea of fun at my age. So, you know, so I think a standard like what Patrick suggests, which is that it’s, it’s you, you have to make the judgment as an employee that you are not intoxicated in a work environment, whether that work environment is in the office, because you’ve had a holiday party in the office, or whether it’s out to dinner with a client or whatever, if you’re on the job, then you need to be not intoxicated.

Gini Dietrich: I think that’s a good role. So what else did he say besides no time ever, can you be intoxicated?

Chip Griffin: So I, I, you know, his point was, was there. And then we also talked about the expense side of things, because this is, this actually is where a bunch of the questions that I’ve gotten have come up. Because it’s, part of it is the actual use of alcohol by the employees, but part of it is, I don’t really want to be paying for it.

Sure. Alcohol can be expensive.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

Chip Griffin: And so. You know, his, his view on that and his suggestion was that you should allow reasonable expensing of alcohol. So you should not have a, a zero alcohol policy. But this might be, you know, where you do say, you know, you, you have to limit yourself to one to two drinks that are at least that are expensed.

If you’re on a business travel, and that you would prohibit the, the expensing of like mini bar alcohol or things like that, you know? So it, if it’s, if it’s part of you going out particularly with clients or prospects or even team members, fine, have a drink or two it’s, it’s on the company. You know, you may also want to suggest that it has to be reasonable, you know, not like Louis the 13th or something like that, 250 a pour or whatever it costs these days.

And by the way, I’ve tasted Louis the 13th. It’s not worth it. So if you see it and want to do it.

Oh, it’s not?

No, it is not. There are, there are plenty of, of much better brandies at much lower prices.

Gini Dietrich: Interesting.

Chip Griffin: So, yeah. That you are paying for the crystal bottle in that particular case, because the bottle itself is worth more.

Gini Dietrich: Do You get to take the bottle home then?

Chip Griffin: I mean, if you bought the whole bottle, but if you buy a whole bottle at a restaurant, then you are not listening to this podcast.

You’re not listening to this show.

I pretty much guarantee that. That is big time money. But so, so I think the bottom line is that you do need to, you frankly need to allow your employees to be able to expense alcohol.

I think it’s, it’s a bad idea just to say no all the way, because then, you know, frankly, most of your employees these days probably aren’t doing a ton of travel and so you, you know, I do believe that it’s up to you to try to make it at least a little bit enjoyable for them and to feel like, yes, I’m away from home and it’s kind of a pain, but.

You know, there are little treats to it, and if that little treat is that you get to have a martini or two at dinner, so be it, right? That’s, you need to invest in that, in my view.

Gini Dietrich: And I think there’s, when you’re with clients, most clients expect the agency to pick up the bill. Whether or not it’s billed back to the, to the client is, it’s up to you and your policy, but most clients, when you’re out to dinner with them, they expect it and they expect to be able to drink as well.

So not having a no, no alcohol expensed policy doesn’t work from that perspective either. Because then all of a sudden you’re putting your employees in a position to be able to say, well, actually I can’t pay for this, which is super uncomfortable. And then they might end up doing it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, that would be awful.

Oh, I mean, I have, I have seen bosses who have tried to have it so that their team can’t expense alcohol, but they can expense client’s or prospect’s alcohol, which is awful too,

Gini Dietrich: No! yeah.

Chip Griffin: Because, because part of the issue is, you know, if, if it’s an environment where it, you know, quote unquote, makes sense for people to be consuming alcohol, a lot of times the client won’t order anything if you don’t, right.

And so. You know, I mean, obviously if you don’t drink alcohol, that’s fine. You don’t, you don’t order alcohol if for whatever reason you don’t drink. However, if in, I mean, I think a general good rule of thumb when you’re out as a guest of somebody is that you don’t order more than what they’re ordering. Right. So, you know, you don’t order caviar unless they’ve ordered caviar.

You don’t order, you know, the nice bottle of wine unless they’ve ordered a nice bottle of wine. I mean, that’s sort of typical. eating out etiquette, at least the way I was always taught. And so a lot of that shows up in the business environment as well. So, you know, if you have a rule that your team can’t drink, then, then now you’re inhibiting that social situation that, that clients, as you point out, frankly expect. Whether they should or not is a whole other question, but, but it is absolutely something that most prospects and clients would expect the agency to be doing.

Gini Dietrich: So what other advice do you have in your article from your research?

Chip Griffin: So, I mean, I, I think the, the other bit was just, you know, really focusing on leading by example here. So the policies that you have need to be the same ones that, that you are adhering to because it makes it so much easier to enforce it.

Now that said, I think you can make some clear exceptions that, you know, that the senior management can approve exceptions to this rule, for example, right, for things like holiday parties, right, you know, we’re paid where perhaps you can expense a little bit more for that. I would never want to have an exception to the intoxication rule.

I think you need to be in a position where you’re prepared to have tough conversations with people. If they’re not living up to these standards. And this is, this is one of those areas where it could very easily become uncomfortable. So you may want to talk with an HR advisor or something like that before you have the conversation.

But if you observe team members who are going past the point of intoxication, whether it’s just with team members or even out with clients, that’s something that you need to address. Because you’re not going to be there for all of those situations. And so you need to make sure that it’s something that’s, that they understand the expectations that you have as a business. Because it becomes really, it’s a really slippery slope in my view and my experience from observing.

That, that if people start to think it’s okay to do this, they just keep going further and further. And, and we all know that alcohol impairs judgment, right? I mean, this is not, this is not a major revelation. And so it is an area where you need to really, I think, set a strong standard for what those limits are.

It shouldn’t be none in most cases, but you know, it does need to be clear and you do need to enforce it.

Gini Dietrich: Is it a fireable offense?

Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, I think, look, I think any time you violate policy is potentially a fireable offense. I think typically I would look at it in terms of is it a, you know, a first offense or something like that, in which case, unless it’s accompanied by something else, right?

You’re intoxicated and you also harass somebody or something like that, OK, well, now, now we’ve got a twofer and now you’re probably gone. If it’s quote, unquote, simple intoxication, then to me, I would, I would probably just address that and say, Hey, this, this can’t happen again, but I think it, it is all very much on the specific circumstances involved, but people need to understand that you’re serious about these things.

And this is not, you’re not just putting this in the handbook as a CYA kind of thing. And it is something where you are clearly communicating what your expectations are.

Gini Dietrich: So go to Chip’s blog and get the statement that Patrick wrote as a good place to start and really think about what this might look like for you and your team.

 Both just for professionalism and, and also to, to make yourself less liable and risky.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, and your rules may not be the exact same things, right? It’s more to your point. You need to think about it and you need to figure out what is right for your business. And, you know, we can offer what our experiences have been, what, you know, what our view on it is, and Patrick obviously shares his, but you, this is an area where you need to think carefully about it and, and not just allow it to sort of develop by osmosis with your team. Because I think a lot of agencies are, are handling it that way today. And I’ve just, I’ve seen too many problems crop up even before, you know, today’s more restrictive environment for businesses on things like this. And you really don’t want to be caught in a situation where because you didn’t think about it,

Gini Dietrich: right.

Chip Griffin: Problems got bigger than they should have.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think this is an area that it’s really easy to, to protect yourself.

So it’s, you know, I think in, in today’s day and age, everybody expects to have some sort of policy around it and it’s a really easy way to protect yourself and just don’t take the risk. Get something in writing and enforce it as needed.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So with that, now that we’ve tackled that tough topic, I’m going to go have a drink. Because it’s, it’s only lunchtime.

It’s only noon.

It’s only, well, it’s almost one here, but still, it’s not five o’clock. And if it’s not five o’clock, I guess it’s five o’clock somewhere though. As the song says, but anyway, on that note, before we go off the rails, while I’m completely slow, so sober,

Gini Dietrich: sober, are you though?

Chip Griffin: Who knows?

Gini Dietrich: Who knows

Chip Griffin: That will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast.

I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini explore the challenges of ageism within the PR and marketing industries, with a focus on agencies. They discuss the stereotypes associated with older professionals, particularly concerning their perceived familiarity with platforms like TikTok.

They emphasize the value of experience and the misconceptions around the cost of hiring experienced talent. 

They advocate for creative solutions like flexible hiring and service delivery models including fractional roles to incorporate senior expertise while balancing the cost to clients and agencies alike.

Additionally, the conversation addresses the importance of continual professional development for current team members and offers advice to experienced job seekers on navigating ageism in their job search.

The co-hosts also offer insights for older, more experienced job-seekers on maintaining a positive presence in the job market and using one’s network effectively.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “Flexibility is absolutely key because the workforce overall, not just in our space, has changed so much in recent years that I think everybody needs to be thinking about more creative employment solutions.”
• Gini Dietrich: “Look for people that can help you reach your goals more effectively. And it doesn’t have to cost a whole ton of money.”
• Chip Griffin: “There’s no risk in conversations. No matter whether it’s with a prospective hire, a prospective client, a prospective partner. Just talk to people.”
• Gini Dietrich: “It’s going to take somebody with 30 years of experience significantly less time to do something than somebody with two years of experience. And so you actually may be saving money in the long run.”

Related

• Fractional C-level help for agencies
• Should your agency hire specialists, generalists, or fractional team members?

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: Gini, I’m old.

Actually, this week I do, I do feel very old.

Gini Dietrich: You’ve been working a ton, that’s why.

Chip Griffin: I’ve been doing too much, you know. Sometime I have to learn to say no to certain things, but I’m not, I’m not very good at it, so.

Gini Dietrich: 80 hour work weeks don’t work anymore.

Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, but, but half of that is my hobby job, so that’s different,

Gini Dietrich: Sure, but it’s still work. It does count.

Chip Griffin: It’s really more physically demanding, you know, my wife said to me the other day, she said, you did a lot of squats during that portrait session. I’m like, I was photographing a young lady who was about five feet tall. So.

What it takes.

Chip Griffin: Unless I just shoot down on her for the whole thing. That’s probably not going to work out too well, unless I get low.

It just reminds me of baseball umpiring, but I also felt old doing that. So, but, but we’re not talking so much about my age today, but age in general, and in particular ages of when it comes to PR and marketing, because this seems to be coming an increasingly prevalent problem is it’s certainly not limited to the world of PR and marketing, but I think that obviously that’s what we talk about here.

So that will be part of the focus. But I think that part of it is, is particular to this industry, because there’s this perception that the older you are, the less you understand things like TikTok and, you know, all the latest and greatest communications tools. And while that may be true amongst the general population, I don’t think that’s necessarily true of experienced communicators and marketers.

And this is a problem that’s only going to get worse as, as the population continues to get grayer and continues to work longer and puts off retirement. And so, I mean, we all know people who are either continuing to work well into their later years, you know, I saw a post from from a friend of mine who’s, you know, he’s 80 and still working and and enjoys it.

I don’t know if he has to do it or if he wants to do it. Doesn’t matter. He’s doing it. Yep. I also know a lot of people who are north of 50 who are having a hard time looking for work and and in part it’s because people are either skeptical of how much they’re going to have to pay someone like that or their ability to know…

you know, all of the new trends and technologies and be able to communicate, but I think it’s, it’s an increasing issue and it’s something that we all need to be thoughtful about as agency leaders in, in terms of our own employees and how we’re continuing to advance their careers in terms of how we’re hiring and thinking about hiring.

And so it’s something I think we need to have on everybody’s radar screen more than it is today.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think there’s, I think there are some things that as agency leaders, we can think about in terms of still being able to hire people with experience. Because they, like, I understand there’s the perception that we may not know about TikTok, or we may not know how to do the latest Deadpool dance or whatever it happens to be, right?

Like, there’s that perception, which I don’t think is necessarily true. I think there are some people that are that way, but it’s not necessarily age related. I keep telling my sister in law that she’s the oldest millennial on earth because she acts like an 80 year old woman. She’s 40. She just turned 40.

So like, I don’t think it has anything to do with age. I think it has more to do with your ability to be curious and innovative and understanding, and, you know, just take in the world around you. But I do think there are some things that as agency leaders, we can do to ensure that we still have senior level expertise on our teams, even if we can’t afford the

you know, mid to high six figure salaries. There are lots of collectives that have started popping up where agencies are built based on kind of like the consulting model where you bring in people and put them on the bench and then bring them in as you need it based on what new business is coming in.

That’s a good way to do it. There are lots of really senior level people who are doing the, what’s called fractional CMO, CCO, whatever happens to be title happens to be, and they’re working for three or four clients. So you can get them for a quarter of their time, which is significantly less. And I think if you start to, to detail it out financially, you understand that

it’s going to take somebody with, you know, 30 years of experience, significantly less time to do something than somebody with two years of experience. And so you actually may be saving money in the long run. So I think it’s a really good exercise for us as agency leaders to think about how do we bring in, you know, different levels of experience and not just say, Oh, my gosh, I can’t in my head. I know I can’t afford this person, so I’m not even going to talk to them.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think so much of it comes down to these preconceived notions. And as you point out, someone who is more experienced, they may end up being cheaper in the long run because they can do, you know, better, faster work.

And so, that actually has a real impact on the bottom line, even though their salary might be higher. But I think there’s also the preconceived belief that these folks are going to be really expensive. And before you even talk salary, people will often dismiss someone, well, they’ve got 15, 20, 30 years of experience that, you know, we’d never be able to afford that.

And, You know, I can tell you from experience that a lot of times when you guess, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s an experienced or less experienced, but you can often guess really wrong, both high and low, what people are looking for salary wise. I know when I’ve been evaluating businesses to do mergers and acquisitions with, I have done an awful job of figuring out from the outside, how much they actually make and how much revenue they have and all of those kinds of things.

So rather than going into it and allowing yourself to have those preconceived beliefs, you should talk about here’s what, here’s what my numbers are. Here’s what we’re paying for this position. And the person can then disqualify themselves or not. And so it does make sense to get those salary ranges out early, but if they don’t, then they may actually be a good fit because there are plenty of people with a lot of experience that for whatever reason, they’re Aren’t looking for a huge payday and maybe they’re more interested in in the work that they find fulfilling and maybe they’ve got a spouse who has also gotten an income stream, so it’s not as important or their kids are off in college, you know, they’re done, they’ve moved on.

So now they don’t have the same financial needs that they may have had previously. So you have to be really careful about these preconceived notions and and applying your own perspective to it because a lot of agency owners, you know, they may still be, you know, having kids who are coming up through school and they’re thinking about paying for college while they’re also saving for retirement while they’re doing all these other things, but the people you’re hiring may not be.

They may have different Interests and pressures that, that are, that you won’t know about until you actually talk with them.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s the same thing as I talk to a lot of my clients about this a lot is, you know, somebody will say, well, I don’t think the prospect can afford that. And I’m like, well, how do you know?

Why are you negotiating with yourself? Stop negotiating against yourself and actually put a price out there to see. And it’s the same thing here, I think, where it’s, you know, if you need somebody who can handle client meetings and be really strategic with and you be comfortable handing off day to day Clients service to somebody Then why wouldn’t you talk to somebody with several years many years of experience because they have the experience They know what to do all of those things, right?

Instead of saying well, I probably can’t afford them so I’m not even going to talk to them. And I think what you’ll find is if you’re flexible and nimble enough to find different services I guess hybrid arrangements, kind of like our hybrid work environment, same kind of thing here. Like maybe you bring them in for 10 hours a week, or maybe it’s 20 hours a week or, you know, whatever happens to be, but don’t negotiate against yourself.

 Ever. Don’t do it with prospects. Don’t do it with candidates. Don’t do it at all. Just like you have to figure out to your point. You, you don’t know, just based on your own preconceived notions, what it, what it is. So have the conversation.

Chip Griffin: I mean, there’s, I mean, I, I say this to clients all the time.

There’s no risk in conversations.

Gini Dietrich: That’s right. That’s right.

Chip Griffin: No matter what, whether it’s with a prospective hire, a prospective client, a prospective partner, I mean, whatever, just, just talk to people. You’d be shocked at what you might actually learn if you, if you go into conversations with an open mind and see what there is.

And you know, I, I do think that when you are hiring someone who has more experience you do need to ask good questions, right? Because I’m not saying that that everyone with experience is a good fit for you, even if you can afford them. There are, we’ve talked previously about how small agencies need to be careful about hiring people who’ve come from large agencies, for example.

And so if you’re, if you’re looking at someone who is more experienced, but their experience is largely with larger agencies. You need to explore that and really understand if they would fit in the environment that you have. And, and part of the challenge is because there is such prevalent ageism, a lot of folks who are north of 50 or even north of 40 in some cases are out there and they are applying for more than what they would typically apply for.

So you do need to make sure that is a proper fit for you. So I’m not saying that just because someone’s experienced, you should throw all your concerns out the window and go out and hire them if you can afford them. But you, but you do want to just think those things through because you do want the right fit still.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think somebody like when I was starting my agency, I was very young and I hired a managing, managing supervisor who was about 25 years older than me. And what she did was she came in and created processes. She did all the statements like our, our process, our procedures. She created teams.

She created a hierarchical organizational chart. Some of it worked and some of it didn’t, you know, and she and I would have, would kind of go around and around sometimes about things, but because she had that experience that I didn’t have, she was able to help me grow my agency a lot more quickly, in a shorter amount of time because of it.

So, you know, and I’m also very, I’m not a process person and I’m not a statement of work person. Like I say, I know how to do this and I can go do it. But like, for me to sit down and do and say, well, it was this and this and this and this and this, I’m not that type of person. So she was really great for the agency and she developed all of that stuff.

And it was her experience that allowed her to do that because she had worked in an agency of my size at the time. Previously, she’d also worked in a large agencies, so she was able to take it. Now in the long run to your point, she was not a culture fit and we ended up parting ways, but she did help me create the structure for the business that I was missing.

And it was because she had so much more experience than I did. So again, not, you know, look for people that can help you reach your goals more effectively. And it doesn’t have to cost, like, she didn’t cost me a whole ton of money.

Chip Griffin: Well, and I think the other thing to think about here is it’s not simply something you need to think about when it comes to recruiting.

You need to think about it with your current team as well. And so particularly if you’re, you know, an agency owner, who’s been around for a while, and you’ve got folks who have been with you for a period of time and, you know, they’re gaining experience and therefore also, by the way, growing older, you need to try to make sure that you’re providing them with the professional development opportunities so that they are keeping current with things, right?

And one of the risks that small agencies run is that you overload employees with so much day to day work that they don’t have time.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: To explore ChatGPT or TikTok or all of these other things that would benefit not just the agency, but also themselves because you want them to be as empowered as possible, both for the work they’re doing for you.

And I mean, frankly, you know, part of your obligation to all of your employees is to set them up for their own futures, even if that is not with you five years down the road. And so you’re doing them a disservice, whether you’ve got someone with two years of experience or 20, if you’re not helping them continue to grow while they work for you.

Gini Dietrich: And I think you’re doing your clients a disservice too, because if they’re not able to grow and learn new technologies and test it out and iterate and learn what works and what doesn’t, then same thing for your clients. Your clients get stale and then they’re, they’re disappointed because you’re not doing, you’re not moving their business forward or coming with new ideas.

And, and I think there’s a big, big thing for that too. So it’s, you know, it’s for their own careers, but it’s for your clients as well.

Chip Griffin: So now let’s, let’s flip the tables a little bit. And so if you are one of those folks in the workforce who is looking for employment after you’ve gained a lot of work experience, what advice do you give those folks as they’re, they’re out hunting, knowing that they’re, they’re facing this headwind of ageism in the workplace?

Gini Dietrich: I mean, thank heaven I own my own business and I don’t have to face it. But you know, that’s not to say that I wouldn’t face it with prospects too, where it’s like, Oh, you guys don’t, you guys seemed old and you know, whatever happens to be. But I would say for people, and I think you and I both have some friends who are facing this, that really it’s about, I would say, being flexible and helping an agency owner understand, or an agency leader understand what you can bring to the table.

And that maybe it’s not full time. So think about these other opportunities that have arisen since the pandemic, where you have these agency collectives that only bring in, now it’s, it’s not a salary and it’s not benefits, you know, but it does provide you a more stable, for lack of a better term, freelance, cadre of clients where they’re bringing that all to you and you’re doing the work, right?

So you still have to pay your own benefits. You still have to pay your own taxes. You still have to do those things as if you’re on your own because you don’t have to go after the new business and you don’t have to manage the backend side of things. So there are the collectives, you know, the fractional, Title that I mentioned earlier has made this huge uprising since 2020.

And, you know, you can be a fractional CEO or chief content officer or chief communications officer, chief marketing officer, and have three or four clients and probably make more money than you would anywhere else. So I think for, for those of you looking for roles, that it, that’s the kind of thing that you should be thinking about is be really flexible in what kind of working arrangement and I think so many people say well I have to have the stability and I have to have the paycheck and I have to have the benefits. And my question to that is why? Why do you have to have it? Because I think you’re going to make more money And be more stable in the long run, probably without those things.

Chip Griffin: Look, I mean, I think flexibility is absolutely key because I mean, honestly, the workforce overall, not just in, in our space is changing so much and has changed so much in recent years that, that I think everybody needs to be thinking about more creative employment solutions. I mean, we’re even seeing, you know, folks who are just out of school who are doing, you know, part time freelancing, contracting, that kind of thing, which I mean, when I got out of college, nobody ever thought about way back then.

Right. You went in and got a normal 40 hour week job and nobody started out as a contractor. Nobody started out being an entrepreneur. They all went off and, and, and had a regular job first. And so, you know, you need to be, if you are someone who, you know, that’s how you grew up and that’s, that’s your experience for the last 20 or 30 years, you need to be open to the idea.

that that may not be the solution, at least for now. And so, and frankly, it’s easier to make connections by doing that kind of work that might lead to a full time role at some point. I mean, yes, it’s, you know, it’s important to be out there if you’re job hunting and sending out resumes and all that kind of stuff.

But at the same time, the relationships that you build by doing contract work, freelance arrangements, working with collectives, all of these different things that you mentioned, that can help you to A put money in your pocket today, which in most cases is helpful and important, but also provide you that stepping stone for a future opportunity that you might not have gotten.

If you’re just sitting there and spraying and praying with, with resumes.

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I think there, that’s a really good point. And I think there are lots of different ways to, to do this today. You know, that we, the opportunities we didn’t have even four years ago. So really be flexible and think about

gosh, if I did this, this and this, and I understand it’s scary and I understand, you know, all of those things, but it’s, it’s not any more scary, I don’t think than not having a job and spraying and praying and trying to, to, to get interviews. So take control of your destiny, make sure that it works for you and be flexible in the way that you can do it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I would say, you know, be careful about allowing the frustration to consume you, because I’ve seen some folks I know where the frustration becomes almost overwhelming at what they’re facing. And I think that it’s important to be out there and, you know, certainly look at the flexible things that you can do and be more open to them than you might generally prefer to be. But I think part of it too is, is making sure that you are continuing to grow, right? I mean, if you’re in the middle of a job hunt, you’re not going to spend eight hours a day, every day at it, right? I mean, unless you’re really just bombarding people who aren’t really good fits. I mean, if you’re being thoughtful about where you’re applying and, and pushing forward with those things, you’re going to have time available.

With that time available, do things to brush up on your knowledge, increase your skill set. Get out there and be talking on LinkedIn and other places to show that you’re thinking about these things, you know, almost as if you were actually an agency owner, right, which obviously is most of our listeners, but I’m sure that some others will, will have this episode referred to them and they’ll, they’ll check it out.

But those are all powerful things that you can do. In order to combat the, the unfortunate ageism that is out there. And, I think going, you know, just being frustrated. And I see some folks who post regularly on, on social media about, you know, their concerns about this and the fact that they are facing ageism.

Yes, fine. You can say that from time to time, but at the same time, you’ve really got to be putting yourself out there because potential employers, potential, you know, agencies that might want to subcontract with you. They want to see your, your thoughtful thinking. They don’t want to hear, you know, the challenges that you’re facing.

And that’s not to minimize them, but that’s just reality. If you want to get out there, you know, you need to put your best foot forward.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I, I mean, I liken this to, I remember probably six or seven years ago, A pretty good friend of mine used social media to vent all of her frustrations about her employer, about her life, about, about everything, about friends, about everything.

And I remember sitting down with her at one point and saying, listen, I understand that you’re frustrated, but what you’re doing is you’re saying to people, don’t be friends with her. Don’t hire her like all of these things. And she poopooed me. And that was probably six years ago. And to this day, she still does not have a full time job.

And it’s because. She continues to say really negative things about everyone on social media and potential employers see that and you know, you see that and you think, gosh, I don’t know that I really want that person to be on my team. So I think you, to your point, you can, you know, vent your frustration from time to time, but you know, when I’m looking for somebody, I want to know how they think.

What kind of culture fits are going to be, do they have thought leadership? Do they do they think the same way that we do or do they have different ways of approaching things? I want to know those things before i’ll even talk to you. And and so I think and I’m not in the minority on that. I think just you know So a good balance is a good, is a good recommendation.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And then finally, the last thing I’d say is it’s important to make sure that the folks in your network are regularly reminded of what you’re looking for, whether that is in terms of full time employment, freelance opportunities, etc. Because, you know, we all have bad memories. And so, you know, you need to be prodded from time to time and reminded of things.

So that means that in addition to, you know, getting out there and applying with employers, you need to use your social media platforms. You need to use your email connections and remind people of what it is that you’re looking for so that you stay top of mind. I mean, it’s the same advice that we give.

And if you can listen to any of the episodes about growing your agency, you need to be right place, right time. You need to be on the top of that person’s mind when they say, Oh, I need to hire someone for this. And if they’re not, if you’re not out there and reminding people, you’re going to get lost. And so even though, even though it may feel a little smarmy, it may feel like you just, God, I, I hate, kind of keep reminding people of this, you need to do it and there are, there are ways you can absolutely do it that don’t come across as, you know, cheesy or whiny or those kinds of things.

You just need to make sure that people know, you know, this is what, this is what I’m looking for.

Gini Dietrich: And it’s just like anything else that we do. Stay top of mind. Which you have to do and not everybody’s gonna see it the first time or the second time or the third time. Like I saw last week That a former employee of mine who I would love to rehire is looking for a job.

I had no idea. I had no idea who was looking for a job And he’s like i’ve been talking about this for six months and i’m like, I just saw it like So I didn’t know. So, you know remember too that just because you’ve said it over and over again and you’re tired of yourself doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody else is.

Chip Griffin: But I suspect at this point people may be getting tired of us talking about this subject, so

we will use that to draw,

we will draw this episode, it’s one of my least bad closes, I mean, you know, it’s corny, but at least it didn’t feel like a crash landing, I don’t think.

In any case, that will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I am Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss results from the SAGA Q3 Agency Owner Survey. Despite a difficult year, the survey reveals widespread optimism among small agency owners regarding future revenue and profit growth. However, there is a noted contradiction, as not as many respondents plan to increase headcount.

The discussion highlights agency owners’ dissatisfaction with their business development efforts, scoring an average of 4.8 out of 10 in satisfaction. Effective tactics like podcast hosting and video content are underutilized, while traditional methods such as attending events and word-of-mouth continue to play significant roles.

The episode encourages owners to adopt more modern business development strategies and to be mindful of adequately resourcing their growing needs.

The full survey results are available for download on the SAGA website here.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “Agencies need to be careful about growing revenue without also growing the resources that they have to service the clients, because that can lead to morale problems for your team. It can lead to execution problems that result in poor client satisfaction.”
• Gini Dietrich: “I think we’re going to grow our revenue and grow our profit, but it’s not helping you put a plan into place that’s going to help you scale and grow a business.”
• Chip Griffin: “Look at the data and understand podcasts work as a tool for business development. You might want to think about doing them.”
• Gini Dietrich: “I think a quarter of your time on business development is good. I think 50 percent of your time is better.”

Resources

• Agency owner growth expectations and business development insights revealed in Q3 SAGA survey

Related

• Best practices for your agency’s podcast web presence
• How podcasting can help grow your agency
• How podcasts can help agencies and their clients (featuring Kelly Glover)
• Block time on your calendar for business development — and stick to it
• Should Chip stop blindly hating RFPs for agencies?

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we need to survey and see what we think about this show. You know? Okay.

Gini Dietrich: I wish I had one of those sound machines that I could be like, survey says

Chip Griffin: I wish I’d come up with a better opening than that. That was pretty sad and pathetic, but you know. Sometimes I hit the mark and more often than not, I don’t.

Gini Dietrich: Sometimes you do.

Chip Griffin: It is what it is.

Gini Dietrich: This time you did not.

Chip Griffin: My theory is people listen to us despite the opening, not because of it.

Gini Dietrich: I hope so.

Chip Griffin: Unless they’re listening just to the opening just to see how miserably I fall flat so they can have their chuckle for the day and then move on.

If you’re going to stick with us today, we are going to talk about surveys, but we’re not surveying ourselves and we’re not talking about the show. We’re talking about the SAGA small agency owner survey that was, completed in August and we released the results just after, the Labor Day break. And so as you’re listening to this, it’ll be a little bit after that, but, , the results are still relevant because we’re looking at both the outlook for owners for the future, where they see their agencies headed, as well as a deep dive onto some of the business development tactics and strategies that they’ve been trying, that have worked, that haven’t worked.

And so there’s a lot of things to chew on here as we get into it. So that’s what we’ll do. We’ll get into it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s pretty interesting, you know, it’s the first time you’ve done this and I think it’ll be interesting to see what the trends are over the next several quarters. But one of the things that struck me about it is that it’s very optimistic.

Especially based on conversations I’m having and you know, my own situation too, where this year has been rough and I think it’s been rough for everyone. So, so I was looking at the results and I’m like, wow, this is, optimistic.

Chip Griffin: Yes. And, and as you say, this is something that I plan to do every quarter so that we can track the outlook, that owners have and we can see trends over time.

So since this is the first in this, effort, we only have a snapshot. We can’t talk about the trend. So future ones of these, we’ll have a little bit more to chew on there and a little bit more to share as we see how the numbers move from quarter to quarter. But, but I think even as a snapshot, there’s some interesting things here, but then the other thing.

In addition to the outlook is each quarter will be a different topic that we dive into. And so this first one is on business development, because obviously that’s a popular thing that owners like to ask about. And so we thought that it would be helpful to see you know what, what their peers are up to and what they see working and what’s not working.

So, but on the optimism side, I mean, the survey clearly shows that small agency owners believe that their revenues are going to increase. I think 68 percent believe that over the next 12 months, their revenue will increase. 59 percent believe that their profits will also increase, but on the other side, only 35 percent think that they’re going to increase headcount over the next year.

Okay. There’s a little bit of a conflict there. I mean, in fairness, they could be saying that the revenue is only going to go up by a dollar or two, in which case, okay, technically you are saying you are predicting that your revenue is going up, but it wouldn’t make sense to hire. That said, I think most people who are predicting revenue growth would be anticipating more than just a dollar or two.

And so you ought to see those numbers tracking at least a little bit more closely than they are. So that’s, that’s a little bit of a warning sign again, as we get more data and we can look at trends over time, we may be able to learn more about it, but certainly agencies need to be careful about growing revenue without also growing the resources that they have to service the clients, because that can lead to morale problems for your team.

It can lead to execution problems that result in poor client satisfaction. So it’s something to be wary of. And just keep in mind, if you really are meaningfully growing your revenue, you probably need to devote more resources as well.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think you put in the executive summary of the survey, you, you put a couple of reasons why, and you’ve alluded to it for here, but one is that it could be that you’re, you’re not profitable right now.

And so adding profit is, is good. It could be that you’re going to, I think you, I can’t remember exactly how you put it, but essentially your employees are going to do more with less because. That’s that’s happening. Or I think there’s a third thing, which I see happen a lot, a lot, a lot, is that agency owners go, well, I’ll just do the extra work myself.

So I’ll just work 150, 000 hours a week instead of 120, 000 hours a week. So I think those, one of those three things is happening. And to your point, you really, if you’re going, if you really are looking at revenue and profit increasing, you really have to look at resources growing as well.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. I mean, I always talk about the agencies who balance their books on the backs of their employees.

And that’s something that the agency world as an industry has been known for for a long time. That is why you have so many people say, oh, agencies are an awful place to work. It’s because instead of pricing correctly or resourcing correctly, the team that you have is asked to do more and more all the time.

And we all certainly saw this as we grew up in the agency world. And it was just expected that you would work well over 40 hours a week. You wouldn’t complain about it. You wouldn’t get paid for it. It was just what you did. And the world has changed. And so people are pushing back reasonably, I think, against that notion.

And I think that, that for agencies to survive and even thrive, you need to be thinking about how do you price and resource correctly so that you don’t have to do that. And, and this survey, at least as a snapshot in time, suggests that there may still be work to be done in that area.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think I think the bigger challenge is, I mean, as you look at this is the things that we hear over and over again, and I just last just a few days ago, did a webinar for Counselors Academy where we talked about business development and you know, you have all these agency owners in there in the webinar and they’re saying the same things. Like we, I can take on more of myself.

We aren’t profitable. This year has been terrible. We’re not growing revenue. And to your point, like maybe everybody’s optimistic that, that revenue is going to increase because the election will be over and hopefully things will start to stabilize again. You know, the Fed has said that we’re going to have a soft landing so that hopefully interest rates are going to start to come down.

Inflation will start to be relieved a little bit. So all of these things happening, makes sense that revenue would, would increase, but also because this year and last have been so terrible. It’s hard to believe that revenue wouldn’t increase. So I think that there’s, there’s something to be said for that, but it’s, it’s really, I think the bigger overarching challenge is exactly what you said.

We don’t know how to price correctly. And because we’re not pricing correctly, we aren’t, we don’t know how to grow our businesses. And because we don’t know how to grow our businesses, we aren’t doing things from a new business perspective that allow us to build and to grow. And all of those things combined create great optimism.

Yeah, I think we’re going to grow our revenue and I think we’re going to grow our profit, but it’s not helping you put a plan into place that’s going to help you scale and grow a business.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, part of the optimism here may simply be, effectively what you were alluding to, which is it’s been so bad.

It can only get better, right? I mean, it can’t get, it can’t get worse, can it? So it will be interesting to see both what really happens as, as well as how those, scores evolve over time. The other thing that the, the survey asked for was for owners to rate their satisfaction with their businesses on a scale of, of 1 to 10.

And I, I would say it was sort of a middling result. It was about a 6.8, 6.9, average score for the, the respondents. So, I mean, obviously, not overwhelmingly satisfied, but also not, not as miserable as they are about business development, which we’ll talk next, but, , you know, I, so I, I think that despite the, the challenges, I think by and large, agency owners seem to be saying we’re going to get through this.

Yep. We’ll see what happens.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think they, I think, Oh, by and large, everybody’s pretty optimistic about the next 12 months.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I certainly, everybody agreed in reading the comments on the survey. Everybody agreed that it’s been bad. Yeah. There were very few people that said, Oh yeah, we, we went gangbusters, this year, so we’re, we’re expecting to do even better next year.

It’s, it was all in the, the tone of it’s been bad, but it’s going to get better. And, and I would say anecdotally in some of my conversations with agency owners over the last, you know, 60 days or so, there does seem to be at least some movement with prospects. I wouldn’t necessarily say a lot of new business is closing, but conversations that had been paused seem to be picking up, there seemed to be more inquiries coming in, so, so there’s, there’s at least some anecdotal evidence that, that this optimism is not completely misplaced.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. And I agree with you, you know, I think since. We see this every year, you know, the summer is always so slow and I stress every summer and then Labor Day hits and everybody comes back. And we’ve seen that’s exactly what we’ve seen as well. Like prospects that we heard from at the start of the year that went dark.

We’ve started to hear from again, you know, the week after the week of Labor Day was probably one of our busiest, all year. So we are seeing it start to pick up as well, which is good. That’s, you know, it represents the optimism I think we’re having.

Chip Griffin: Now where they were not optimistic and they were not satisfied was on the business development side of things, which kind of makes sense if it’s been a rough year, you’d be, you’d be dissatisfied generally, but the, on the 1 to 10 scale, the level of satisfaction with their own agencies, business development was 4.8. That’s not good. If 6.8 was middling for your overall business satisfaction score, 4.8, that’s, that’s pretty bad. We’re, we’re below five. So that means, and that’s the average. There were some who put in, you know, 1 as their, their score for their own agency and business development. So, and I don’t think there were any nines or tens, if I read that correctly.

So. This is, this is certainly an area that agencies know they need to focus on. And this is not a surprise, right? I mean, this is, I think we probably would have gotten this answer even two years ago when things were looking pretty good for many agencies. I think a lot of them would say, look, we’re doing well, but it’s, it’s more by accident than by design.

And so, so this does make sense. Interestingly, though, as we, as we dive into some of the details here, it looks like agencies may not be doing some of the things that their peers tell them are most effective at generating business. And we’ll get into that in a minute. So that’s a little bit of a tease for you to stick around for a little bit longer.

But the, one of the things I started with was, was taking a look at, you know, what is the owner doing? Because we all talk about small agencies and the owners are critical to business development. And I was frankly, a little bit surprised because I think 56 percent of the respondents were spending at least a quarter of their time on business development, which I can tell you in my general conversations with agency owners.

Doesn’t seem to be what I generally hear. Most owners I talk to are not really spending at least a quarter of their time. But this survey suggests that at least more broadly, and that may be self selection, right? The ones who are talking to me, maybe they’re talking to me because they don’t have the time.

And so they’re, they’re trying to fix that. But in general, owners are spending at least a quarter of their time on business development, which is frankly good. They ought to be spending at least a quarter of their time on it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree with you. And you know, we, we talk about gosh, business development from the perspective of sales, and we talk about it from relationships and we talk about the thing, and we talk about bringing somebody into help because not many of us enjoy it, but the thing about it is when you own an agency, especially when it’s not a large global conglomeration, the prospects are expecting to hear from the agency owner.

They’re expecting that your name is on the door. It may not like, may not literally be on the door, but your name is on the door. And they’re expecting that they’re going to get that senior level expert in the room for many of their strategic high level things, right? So sending someone else in like a salesperson to do that isn’t as effective.

And so I think from my perspective, I think a quarter of your time is good. I think 50 percent of your time is better. And if you can figure out how to switch that so that you’re spending half of your week on business development, you’re going to see, you’re going to be able to actually build something that, that makes you happy, you know, that you’re more satisfied with it than.

4.8, which is really terrible. Oh, 6.8 was the satisfaction. 4.8 was the new business, right?

Chip Griffin: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. 4. 8 was the satisfaction, but still like the business development component.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s pretty terrible.

Chip Griffin: It is. And, and to your point, you know, most, most of the respondents said that they didn’t have a substantial amount of help from their team.

Very few had anyone that was focused on business development, on their staff, which. Makes sense. And frankly, for most PR and marketing agencies with the traditional model, I don’t believe it makes sense to have someone other than an owner who is. Focused on business development. Now, most of them did say they were getting some assistance from their team and sometimes even from outside help, whether that was consultants or appointment centers or agency, other agencies to help them in their business development efforts.

And so that, that is encouraging that they are not shouldering the burden entirely on their own. But you know, I talked to a lot of owners who think that the silver bullet is to hire someone to do it. And I think that what we’re seeing in this data is consistent with the advice that you and I generally give, which is that’s, that’s not the solution that that’s needed.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, unfortunately, because I would love that solution as well, but that’s unfortunately not how it works for us.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. Unless you’re, unless you’re a high volume agency, which I think is really more of a service provider slash vendor. Yeah. Even though you may call yourself an agency, unless you’re high volume, it just doesn’t make any sense to have dedicated sales teams.

I mean, if you’re doing SEO, PPC, and you’ve got, you know, a roster of hundreds of clients and small businesses and that kind of stuff, that’s fine. You can have a sales team for that. But for the vast majority of PR and marketing agencies where you’re in that sweet spot of 10, 15 clients at any given time, someone dedicated to business development just doesn’t, doesn’t make a lot of sense.

It doesn’t tend to work, nor does it seem to make sense from a resource perspective. But now let’s look at some of the tactics. And so the, the survey looked at what tactics are you using and of the tactics you’re using, which ones are most effective. And so not surprisingly at the top of both lists was word of mouth.

So the vast majority of agencies, I think 95 percent were using word of mouth for business development. The 5 percent who weren’t, I don’t know what, what’s up with that. I mean, no, we don’t want anybody to refer business to us. No. We want to go hunt it all cold. So in any case, but, but that it got the highest score as far as effectiveness, which we asked, the review to be on a one through five scale for that.

And so word of mouth got 4.3 for effectiveness. So by far, then, I mean, the next closest to put it in perspective was 3.4. So it was far and away, which makes sense, right? I mean, if you’re referred by someone who says good things about you, it ought to be your most effective tactic. So we’ll set that aside now because that was fully expected.

Now that some of the more interesting and unexpected things. And so attending events was the second most effective again, kind of makes sense. I mean, I think if you talk to most agency owners, I say, when I get to go meet people in person, it helps. And so I think that makes sense. But now we get down to the third and fourth, most effective podcast hosting and video.

And so I, when I first sat there, I looked, I’m like, wow, those, I mean, look, they, they have very nice, impressive scores. I’m like, Do people not understand this or what? And then I looked at the percentage using them and then it made sense. It turns out that very few people are using hosting their own podcast or creating video, but they are the most effective.

So that suggests to me that those are things that more agencies ought to be doing. And that’s because I frequently recommend podcasts to agencies because I think it’s a great way to get out there. I mean, we know from what we do just for our own businesses today, Yep. This episode is a podcast and it’s also in video.

And I will tell you that 99 percent of the people who come to me have watched me on video. Listened to me on my podcasts. So yes, it seems to make sense. And this data backs that up. Unfortunately, only 28 percent of agencies have a podcast, which I think is high. So it’s probably some self selection cause we’ve got a lot of people who are interested in podcasts or, or, you know, on my lists and that sort of thing.

So I think it’s, that’s a high number, but still it’s, it’s small. It’s one of the least utilized business development tactics. And video is right around the same area. 34 percent are using video in some fashion for business development as agencies. So clearly not being utilized all that much. And so then we looked at, okay, well, what are people planning for the next 12 months?

Unfortunately, hosting a podcast is not on there. It is, it ranks only above cold calls, sponsorships, direct mail, and traditional ads, as far as things that people plan to add to the mix. I mean, exhibiting at events scores higher. Wow. That boggles my mind. I mean, clearly people need to be looking at this data and understanding podcasts work.

You might want to think about doing them.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you know, one of the things I really like about podcasts for agencies is you can create your list of dream clients and then invite them to be a guest on your podcast. And it works so incredibly well. It’s not sales. It’s not a used car salesman. It’s not, you know, all of these things that make us uncomfortable.

You’re simply inviting them to be a guest on your podcast and having a conversation with them. And all of a sudden you’re on their radar, your top of mind. And gosh, you know what? We’ve been thinking about hiring an agency. I’d love to have a conversation with you about that. Happens all the time.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it’s a win win. It’s building relationships and it’s creating content for other people to consume. So, to me, it, and people worry about, well, you know, not many people are going to listen. Who cares?

Gini Dietrich: Who cares? Right. Right.

Chip Griffin: You only need a handful of people, really, to listen to your podcast for it to be effective.

You don’t need large listenership in, in the world of what we do. Yeah. And so you shouldn’t focus on, well, I, you know, I need hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people to listen to my podcast. Nope. You probably need 20 or 30. And if you got 20 or 30 regular listeners and they’re the right ones because they will be the right ones.

Right. Nobody’s going to listen to your podcast if they’re not a good fit. Correct. Assuming that you’ve created a podcast that’s relevant to your target audience. So you clearly ought to be thinking about that. And I think as you dig into the survey, there may be other things that you see and you say, Oh, I didn’t realize that, that my peers are seeing the effectiveness of this tactic.

Maybe that’s something I should be looking at. But to me, I would really just put a huge spotlight on, on hosting a podcast and creating video, because I think both of those are so effective for the vast majority of agencies out there. And so most of you who are listening should be doing one or the other or both.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, 100%. And if you want some advice or just want to chit chat about best practices or anything like that, let either one of us know, because we obviously do this quite a bit.

Chip Griffin: We do. And I can’t stop talking about podcasts when asked about it. So I often do it for free. So some of the other things we asked about on the business development front were which platforms are you using to for business development from a social perspective.

Not all that surprisingly LinkedIn top of the list, a little bit surprisingly, it was a hundred percent reported that they were using LinkedIn for business development. That was, you don’t usually see a hundred percent on surveys for anything. After that, it then fell off to a hodgepodge of the others.

Instagram was at 40 percent. X slash Twitter was at 37 percent. Facebook, 33 percent.

Gini Dietrich: A hundred percent! I that makes my brain itch, I think that basically means they’ve got, they’ve got, they’re on LinkedIn. They’re on LinkedIn. Yeah. Right.

Chip Griffin: I suspect that’s, that’s effect, because I can tell you that that is not a measure of how, how many people are using it effectively.

Correct. Or even actively. Right. But they all have LinkedIn accounts, apparently. So that, I suspect that’s probably more of what was there. YouTube, not surprisingly, since video is not very well utilized, only 14%. So, again, look, YouTube shows up really high in search results for lots of things. So, you’re missing the boat if you’re not using video on YouTube in particular.

Also asked about pricing models, because this is a popular topic. And so when it comes to business development, How are you pricing your work? And it turns out that there is a very healthy mix at the top of the list between monthly retainers and fixed fee projects. Not all that surprising. More interesting, for all those people out there who say hourly billing is dead, 52 percent of respondents are doing at least some of their projects with hourly billing.

Which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing. Whether they’re being used correctly or not is a whole other question that we could dive into more deeply. But for those of you who think it’s gone, it ain’t gone.

Gini Dietrich: 52% are using the hourly rate. Interesting.

Chip Griffin: As, as one of the mix, right? I mean, obviously Sure, sure, sure.

80 80% are retainers, 78%, , fixed fee projects, 52% hourly billing. So Wow. Clearly a lot of agencies are, are using a mix and, and we see that the new work that’s coming in consistent with what we’ve been talking about on the show is that there is a, a pretty even mix between project and retainer based revenue that agencies are seeing today.

Yeah. And I know that there are a lot, a lot of the gurus out there will tell you, you need to focus just on recurring revenue. Reality is that’s not what’s closing. It’s about an even mix between them. And I think that’s healthy, frankly. So there’s a, there’s a lot to be learned even on that side of the equation as you dig into some of this data.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s healthy too. And I don’t think that we should be afraid of it, especially in down economies. You know, I talk about really. Yeah. Having multiple sources of, of income and having projects and retainers, that’s at least two different sources, you know, look at ways that you can develop other kinds of, of sources for passive income and scalable income as well.

 But I, I do think it’s healthy to have a good little mix.

Chip Griffin: And now the last thing that I want to raise here before, and there’s lots more in this survey that people can download and access, but the last thing I wanted to touch on was. You know, we frequently rant about RFPs on this show and how dumb they are.

Maybe we’re wrong because 64 percent of respondents are responding to RFPs.

Gini Dietrich: That doesn’t mean they’re winning.

Chip Griffin: It ranked number five as most effective tactics for their agency. I, I find it hard to truly believe that. And yet. I have to look at the data in front of me, and as someone who loves data, it does make me wonder.

Now, I think the piece that’s missing here, and so perhaps at some point in the future we’ll do some additional research on this, is what percentage of RFPs are you actually winning? Correct. So is your perception of effectiveness only because you’ve won some? Because my argument is, will you win some RFPs if you, if you respond to enough of them?

Gini Dietrich: Yes. Sure. Absolutely.

Chip Griffin: The problem is that the money that you invest to respond to all these RFPs is outweighed by the fact that you lose the vast majority of them. Yeah. So perhaps somewhere in the future, that scenario, we’ll dig in a little bit deeper to see if, if there’s more to that story. But I, I would be remiss if I didn’t point that out simply because that is contrary to what we usually say here and recommend.

But it is the number five most effective tactic, according to our survey, and 64 percent of agencies are using it.

Gini Dietrich: Crazy. That’s crazy. That’s crazy.

Chip Griffin: So with that, I will, I will draw to an end this episode. I will encourage you to download the full copy of the results. There’s lots more to chew on that we didn’t get to address here today.

You can just go to smallagencygrowth.com and get your copy for free. It’s right there on the website. And, I’d be interested to hear any, any additional feedback or thoughts that you have as you look through it or questions that perhaps we can address in future research. Or in an article or who knows what, maybe another podcast episode somewhere down the road.

But with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini dismantle the myth that agency management can rely on a one-size-fits-all approach. They emphasize the importance of understanding the diversity and unique needs of different types of agencies, such as PR, ad, and digital agencies.

Chip and Gini discuss their experiences in various agency environments and highlight the influence of agency size and specialization on management strategies. They caution against blindly following advice from other agency owners or consultants without considering the specific context and needs of one’s own agency. They also stress the importance of tailoring roles and titles to actual needs rather than fixed hierarchies, revealing the potential pitfalls of title inflation and focusing too narrowly on prescribed roles like account or project managers.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “The irony is that in most agencies, an account manager doesn’t manage and an account executive is not an executive.”
• Gini Dietrich: “If you’re listening to advice, or you have the mindset that you have to fill roles like an account manager, a traffic manager, a project manager…that is the fastest way to zero profit.”
• Chip Griffin: “You need to personalize your approach based on what you’re trying to accomplish and what your specific needs are, not what you’ve heard some other peer or expert tell you.”
• Gini Dietrich: “In a PR firm, it’s typically the people who are doing the work that are also doing the account management, the client service, and the project management, management, making sure the work gets done.”

Related

• Be smart about titles at your agency
• How small agencies can improve employee retention
• Setting expectations for raises and promotions at your agency
• Beware of the experts

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, today is a one size fits all day. We’re going to talk about how every agency is exactly the same. And all you have to do is go through a simple checklist and you’ll know how to manage your business successfully.

Gini Dietrich: Man, that’s going to make life so much easier. Awesome. Yes,

Chip Griffin: it is. I mean, you know, it’s, it is nice that it’s just all about a simple formula. No real thought involved.

Gini Dietrich: Okay. I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, yeah.

Chip Griffin: Well, I think in all seriousness, I think one of the challenges that agency leaders have these days is there are a lot of resources out there.

There’s this podcast. There are plenty of other podcasts like it. There are lots of articles. There are YouTube channels. There are books and a lot of it is framed as we do here in terms of agencies, right? The Agency Leadership Podcast. We don’t specify what kind of agency. As we talk, it becomes more clear, you know, where our general knowledge is.

And so therefore where our general slant is, but on the surface, we’re just talking about agencies and there are a lot of other really smart people out there who are talking about agencies and giving you advice. The problem is that not every agency is the same. There are small agencies, there are large agencies, there are PR agencies, there are ad agencies, there are digital agencies.

There are all these different permutations of it and understanding and trying to figure out how that all fits and how to understand the advice you’re being given is different. And so you need to appreciate that those differences exist and understand the advice you’re getting where it’s coming from.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I, I mean, yes, and, and you’re right. That it’s not a one size fits all, unfortunately, and having worked both in a large global PR firm where it was all PR and having worked in an ad agency where we were building a PR department. They, they work completely different. They have different structures of teams.

They have a production department. They have an account management client service department. They have creative, they have copywriting, they have art and graphic design. And, you know, we have pR. So that simplifies it, but that’s, that’s generally how it works. So I think you’re right, depending on the agency and depending on the expertise that you provide is going to help you craft sort of the organizational model or chart around the types of people that you hire.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And so when, when you’re out there and you’re consuming this advice, if you’re, if you’re listening to us, you know, that our background is primarily in PR, marketing communications, PESO model type agencies. Do we have other experience? Yes. I run a digital agency. I’ve got a lot of other experiences. We can talk about those things as well, but most of our advice is centered on those PR, marcoms, PESO agency types.

And so. There are others out there who you’ll go and they’ll say, well, you know, an account manager should do this or that, or you should have a project manager. Most PR agencies aren’t going to follow that same advice for what an account manager should do. Most PR agencies aren’t going to even have a project manager.

There are some smart people in the agency world who will talk about the, how important it is to have a traffic manager. Most PR agency owners don’t even know what a traffic manager is. So, so I will have them say, you know, I was listening to such and such a podcast and they were talking about how valuable a traffic manager is.

What’s a traffic manager? Do I need one? No, you don’t. No, because you’re running a different kind of business.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: And so it’s the same thing. You have a lot of the folks who run the high volume agencies, the SEO PPC type agencies, they’ll be out there talking about how, oh, you need a VA, you need a salesperson.

And for those kinds of agencies, those kinds of things can work. For most PR and Marcoms agencies, not so much.

Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. I think there are some exceptions to the rule for sure. You know, because we have, I’ve crafted my agency around the PESO model, we have core expertise in paid or in shared and owned media.

And because of that, we do have a project manager, but I think we got Gosh, 15 or maybe 18 employees before, before we hired him. So even still, you know, you still had everybody managing the client. There was one, there is one point of contact before we hired the project manager. There was one point of contact for each client account.

And then all the earned media or all the media types fell into that. But usually the point of contact was doing something like content owned media or earned media. Whatever was most important to the client, and then they were sort of the ones running it. So the point is, is that in a PR firm, it’s typically the people who are doing the work that are also doing the account management, the client service, and the project management, management, making sure the work gets done.

Chip Griffin: And the roles, even within, as you point out, the, a PR or Marcoms agency. Based on your size, things are going to change. So it’s, it’s not even just about the kind of agency you are. It’s the size, right? That at five or 10 people, a PR agency is going to be almost exclusively generalists. You’ll have people who have a little bit of extra ability on the writing side, maybe a little bit extra on the media relations side, but you’re not going to have the, the well defined structures.

I mean, when I worked in, in large agencies, we had an entire writing department, we had an entire creative department, right? And those, that made sense. At five or 10 employees, that doesn’t make sense for most of you out there. You don’t want to have two people who are nothing but writers. And, you know, cause they’re probably not going to have enough work to fill 40 hours a week each.

And so you need to be thoughtful about those. And as you, as you hear some of these things, and as you talk to other agency owners about how they’re set up, you need to appreciate how, how is what they’re doing the same or different from what you’re doing so that you can draw the right conclusions for the structure that you want to put in place with your team.

Gini Dietrich: The other mistake I see, especially PR firm agency owner, PR firm owners making is that there’s sort of a hierarchy traditionally, especially at the large firm. So you start as an account coordinator, you go to assistant AE, then to executive, account executive, senior AE. Account supervisor, managing supervisor, VP, SVP and on.

Like that’s typically the, the organizational chart. And what I see agency owners, the mistake I see them making is they say, okay, well I have to hire an account coordinator and I have to hire an AAE and I have to hire an AE and they, they, they sort of fit people into that and they try to fit people into that process or that organizational structure without looks, taking a step back and looking at what they really need.

Maybe you need somebody with like five to seven years of experience and they might need an account supervisor or management supervisor title, but you, because they only have five to seven years of experience, you want them in that AE or SAE level. And that’s just not the case. So I think you have to really step back and go, Okay, hang on a second.

What kind of work needs to be done? How many years of experience do I need for the person to have? And what kind of titles are they looking for? You know, for us, as I was building my agency, I looked for people who had the experience I need and I sort of let them dictate the title. And in some cases it bit them in the butt a little bit because I, I remember a couple of times people were like, Oh, I really want to be chief content officer.

I really want to be vice president. And they didn’t have enough experience, but titles didn’t matter to me. So I was like, okay, you can be chief content officer. I don’t care. And then they went to get another job. And from an ego perspective, got quote unquote demoted like two or three titles. They didn’t get demoted in terms of pay or anything like, core responsibilities, but from their perspective, they were demoted in terms of titles.

So I also think you have to think about those kinds of things and have those honest conversations. Like I’m totally cool making you a chief content officer. If that’s what you, if that’s the title you want, but know that when, if, and when you leave us, you’re probably not going to get that same title. So should we think about what that might look like for your career path in general, not just at this agency.

And some people are agreeable and some people are not, and that’s up to you. But I think the important thing is like figuring out what skillset you need and the years of experience that you need, and then work them into a title that way versus trying to follow that pattern.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, I mean, certainly thinking about, you know, we’ve talked about career progressions and title paths and, you know, and all that kind of thing in the past, but you know, one of the things to think about, it’s not just how it impacts their career going forward.

If you have title inflation, it’s also what, what your flexibility is in restructuring your own business because you want to be careful about giving someone a title that’s, that’s so large that it’s hard to layer them down the road, if you need to.

Gini Dietrich: That’s a great point. That’s a really great point.

Chip Griffin: So if you’ve got some of the chief content officer, I mean, about the only thing you can layer them with is a chief operating officer or CEO or president or something like that. There’s not much else that you have that you can logically at least, you know, make them subservient to in a way that doesn’t, you know, feel weird.

Right. I mean, you don’t have a chief content officer report to a vice president or something like that typically. And so you want to be thoughtful about those. But as we’re thinking about titles, you know, that’s another area. Even if you compare PR agencies and you look at their title structures, the most junior title for all of them is likely going to be different.

Yeah. Right. Some, I’m a junior person as an account coordinator. A lot, it’s account executive. A lot, it’s account manager. Yep. The irony is that in most agencies, an account manager doesn’t manage and an account executive is not an executive. Right?

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: Those are the common titles. Uh huh. But I’ve, I’ve been involved with agencies where an account executive was senior to an account manager.

And I’ve been ones where an account manager is senior to an account executive. So, you know, it’s one of the reasons why salary surveys are so problematic in this field, because if I’ve got an account manager, and particularly when you’re looking across different kinds of agencies, right, because in an ad agency, an account manager is actually a fairly senior experienced person who’s managing the relationship.

In most PR agencies, an account manager isn’t that senior, isn’t running the, the, the actual relationship. They may manage the day to day of the project, but it’s, it’s typically going to be someone senior to them who’s actually quote unquote, owns the relationship with the client and that, and that’s the person who’s responsible for growing the account and retaining the account.

It’s not the account manager themselves. Now that, but that can be different, right? Cause it depends on how you structure your own agency. And so you need to be careful as you’re hearing, even us talk, because we’ll use it based on our own experience and how we’ve structured things, but it may not be the same as what you’re doing.

And so you want to look at the big picture lessons you can take as opposed to, oh, well, I was told that I, you know, I should have an account manager who’s out, you know, and it’s their job to, to grow accounts. If it’s someone two years out of college, I’m not going to say it’s their responsibility to grow the account.

Gini Dietrich: No.

Chip Griffin: That doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not their job to come up with big picture strategy. I mean, should they be able to manage day to day stuff? Yes, absolutely. Bigger stuff? I mean, you can’t just hand that off to someone junior most of the time.

Gini Dietrich: Right. Totally agree with that. You know, it’s kind of like, I’ll say to a client, they’ll say, Oh yeah, I think that my 15 year old kid can handle social media.

And I’m like, do you want your 15 year old kid to go golfing with your number one client without you? No, no, you don’t. So why would you let them talk externally to your customers and prospects? Like same thing, right? You don’t, you’re, you’re not going to expect your junior level employee to do that. Those kinds of things.

Can they be in the meetings? For sure. Can they observe and listen? Absolutely. Should they be the one in charge of it? No freaking way. So the other thing I would advise is really you know, pay attention to what every, you know, all everybody advises, of course, but talk to other agency owners and understand like this is the world in which we live.

And the, this is the type of person I’m looking for. And these are the types of titles they may or may not have. So you can talk to other agency owners and say, Hey, listen, what do you call your, your person who handles media relations at like five to seven years of experience or three to five or eight to 10 or whatever happens to be.

And you’ll probably get, if you talk to five different agency owners, you’ll probably get five different answers, but it’ll at least give you an idea of, okay, If we’re thinking about this and I want to flip myself into that process, then where, where does it make me most comfortable? And so you start to look at it and really understand. You know, SAGA is a great place for that.

You have a Slack community. The Spin Sucks community is probably about half agency owners. You can do that. PRSA has Counselor’s Academy, which is all agency owners. You can, you know, join that. So there are lots of places where you can just ask that question, and understand what titles are being used for different levels and different types of experience so that you can start to figure out, okay.

And like I said, you may have get five different answers from five different agency owners, but it gives you enough basis and foundation to understand this is how I’m going to structure it and give you enough to be able to do that.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. I mean, you can learn so much from those things. And, you know, I would also say try to avoid fixating too much on titles.

Focus on what the actual role is, what they’re doing. So as you’re, as you’re asking people, about, you know, how they’re structured, what they have, you know, for things, understand what those people actually do. Because before, you know, if you hear someone say you should have a project manager, cool, sit down and actually ask them, what does that person do?

And then think about your own agency and put together a job description for what that person would do on a day to day basis. And then figure out, will it actually help to have this person? Can you get this in one individual? Or have you actually described a unicorn that’s actually three different specialist positions rolled into one and your odds of finding it are going to be tiny?

Is it something that you need, but you only need 10 hours a week. And so it’s going to have to be rolled into something else because you can’t, or you’re going to find someone to do it part time because you don’t have 40 hours a week to fill it.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And, and I think when you start doing those things and you start actually sitting down and asking yourself those tough questions about what is this person actually going to do?

How do they fit in with the rest of the mix? That’s where you start to figure out whether it fits or not. And, and I, I hate to harp on VAs, but VAs are one of those things that a lot of agency coaches out there will tell you, Oh, it’s a lifesaver to have a VA. For most of you, it isn’t. Because for most of you, you’re not doing that much actual admin stuff.

And so if you’re, if you’re not spending hours and hours a day doing admin stuff, then first of all, what you’re looking for is not truly a VA. You’re just looking for a contractor to do something else. And even then you need to figure out what can they actually take off of your plate. Because so often when I’ve talked with folks who are looking at hiring a VA, they tell me, here’s what they can do.

And it’s, it may, you know, it’s, it’s maybe two or three hours a day, but the amount of time it will take them is half of that to manage it. So if you’re spending an hour and a half to manage getting three hours off your plate, what’s the point?

Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Chip Griffin: So there is a time and place for all of these different roles.

It may not be at five people. It may not be at 10 people. It may not even be a 20 or 25. It may be further down the road. It may be if you add a different kind of services to your point, if you start doing the full PESO model, yes, you’re going to start to need some specialists because it’s hard to have someone who has all of the different specialties in the PESO model, you know, in their, under their own hat.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah,

Chip Griffin: they exist, but they are unicorns.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I found that out pretty quickly as we were building the agency around that, you know, 10 years ago, almost no one can do all four. So you, you do have to find specialists. And I will tell you that as we were doing it, you know, we didn’t have full time people that were focused on each.

We had contractors and, you know, we brought them in as needed. And eventually we got to the point where we needed full time people under each media type, but it took us, Gosh, six or seven years to get there. So you, the same goes for you. You know, if you’re looking for a specialist, doesn’t have to be a full time employee either.

Chip Griffin: Right, because you, it all comes back to understanding what your objectives are, what you need from a resource perspective, and then figuring out how you get there.

If you, if you approach it from the, well, I’m told that I need to have account managers doing this and I need to have project managers to do that. And I need a traffic manager and all these different things. You don’t, you shouldn’t be starting with those titles. You shouldn’t be starting with thinking the roles of the big picture.

You should start looking at the individual tasks that need to be accomplished and figure out who can do that on your current team, who has the bandwidth, who has the capability. If they don’t have either of those or one of those, then do you need to hire someone who has that ability? Do you need to find a contractor?

Do you need to find a partner agency to work with? Whatever it may, there’s a lot of different ways to solve it, but you need to understand what your actual need is, as opposed to latching onto the notion of, a project manager or an account manager or a sales rep or whatever.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I would say that if, if you’re listening to, or you have the mindset that you have to fit, find roles like that, we have to find an account manager.

We have to do this. We have to do that. That is the fastest way to zero profit. And I speak from experience. So don’t do that. Take, take Chip’s advice and really look at what it is. What is it that we need? Who is it that can fill that role? And if we have any gaps, can we fill in with contractors for five or 10 hours a week to, to do that?

Chip Griffin: Right. And, and understand the perspectives are going to be entirely different based on the experiences of the person sharing that, whether that’s a fellow agency owner or a coach or consultant like us or something else. We all have our own experiences. We’re all speaking about a specific kind of agency, which is a subset of all agencies.

And if you understand that those things are different and you understand that your agency, even if you’re a five person PR agency, you’re not the same as every other five person PR agency. And so you really need to personalize your approach based on what you’re trying to accomplish and what your specific needs are, not what you’ve heard some other peer or expert tell you.

Gini Dietrich: This is for sure. Yes, because your PR firm may be completely, you focus completely on media relations. So that’s completely different than my PR firm that doesn’t. So you also just have to, it’s a great point. You have to think about what the perspective of is of the person that’s giving you the advice.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And it’s not one size fits all, you know, we’ll, we’ll share our perspective, take our perspective, keep listening to us, digest it, figure out what’s useful to you and where we’re just full of hot air and feel free to stop listening at that point. But you’ve been listening all the way through to the way through,

Gini Dietrich: that’s right.

Chip Griffin: And we appreciate that. So that brings us to the end of this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of effective reporting for agencies.

Many agency leaders view reports as a necessary evil, but when done right they can actually become an important contributor to profits.

Chip and Gini recommend auditing existing reports to eliminate unnecessary ones and creating meaningful reports that directly influence business decisions. They also highlight the potential of leveraging AI to analyze and generate reports, ultimately transforming reporting from a mundane task into a profit center.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “I don’t think I’ve ever met an agency that’s not producing at least some useless reports. These are reports that either don’t really inform you in any way, shape, or form and/or are never even consumed by anybody, oftentimes not even within the agency itself, beyond the person who creates it.”
• Gini Dietrich: “You have all of this data available to you. Use it. Don’t be scared of it.”
• Chip Griffin: “Anytime you’re talking about a report, I always encourage you to think about what’s the business decision this is influencing? And the flip side, what is the business decision you’re trying to make? Now, what reports would help me to make that decision more effectively?”
• Gini Dietrich: “AI is getting pretty smart on this stuff where it can analyze the reports for you. There are tools that you can use to make it really easy and profitable for yourself.”

Related

• How PR agencies can turn measurement and evaluation into a profit center

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we need to produce a report.

Gini Dietrich: Okay,

Chip Griffin: we need to figure out what’s working and what’s not with this podcast. And then we’re gonna make some money off of that.

Even better.

Which would be the first money we’ve ever made off of this podcast.

That’s actually not true. I

Gini Dietrich: I guess we get I mean, anncilliarily we make money.

Chip Griffin: Sure. I have prospects tell me all the time that they listen to this show and that’s one of the reasons why they reached out. So, I mean, it, it has a positive impact, but we do not directly generate revenue

Gini Dietrich: We do not.

Chip Griffin: From this podcast and, and we never will because we get the occasional inquiry, but it’s way too much effort to try to sell sponsorships and that kind of stuff, not going to do it.

Gini Dietrich: Okay. All right.

Chip Griffin: Not going to do it. Plus, I mean, as we know, everybody who’s, you know, sponsors these podcasts and videos, not everybody, but a lot of the people who, they’re not really things you want to be associated with. They just are people who have big checkbooks.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree with that.

Chip Griffin: I mean, I watch a lot of YouTube videos,

Gini Dietrich: Sometimes you think, why would…yeah

Chip Griffin: awful stuff.

Gini Dietrich: I do agree with that.

Chip Griffin: Anyway, though, we are going to talk about how your agency can use reporting to your advantage, to improve your profitability, to generate more revenue and basically just make it an all around good thing, as opposed to just that painful checkbox that you currently have probably sitting in front of you.

Oh, we need to do a weekly report, a monthly report, a quarterly report, an annual report. Oh, it takes so much work. And, and it can actually be beneficial to you if you’re thinking strategically about all of the different kinds of reporting that you do to clients.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think that goes in, that delves nicely into measurement too, because I think to the same challenge, perhaps we think, Oh, gotta pull the report.

And then I have to look at the data and then I have to do a comparison and then I have to figure out, did this work or did it not? And you’re like, and so I think just as agency owners overall, it’s not our strong suit, so we tend to, to procrastinate and put it off. And, and I think, you know, you wrote an article about this.

 On your blog, but I think the idea that you have the opportunity to turn those, both of those things into a profit center and make some money off of it is one that you is compelling, compelling one. And one that you should go, okay, maybe I should learn to love this because I can make some money doing it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and frankly, part of it comes from stopping doing some of it. So you become more profitable if you stop the useless reports that you’re creating, because I guarantee you, I don’t think I’ve ever met an agency that’s not producing at least some useless reports. These are reports that either don’t really inform you in any way, shape or form and/or are never even consumed by anybody, oftentimes not even within the agency itself, beyond the person who actually creates it.

And so the first thing you probably ought to do is do an inventory of all of the reporting that you’re doing, whether it’s. human generated reports, automated reports that just get emailed on a regular basis. Inventory it, figure out what you’re actually producing for reports for both internal and external use so that you can then start going through it and start weeding out the stuff that no longer has value.

Right? So that’s, there are probably some new things you should create, but start by just pruning the tree and get rid of all those dead branches that I guarantee you are there.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And while you’re doing that, talk to your clients and figure out what’s working for them and what’s not because same thing. Like we have one client who at the beginning of the relationship said, we have to have media hits for the industry sent to us every day and so we got into TruScope and we packaged everything up and it’s automated now and like if their competitors are talked about or anything that’s pertinent from the industry that’s talked about it all gets packaged into a nice email and it goes to them. And so at the very beginning of the relationship, they’re like, we have to have this and you know, a year and a half into the relationship now they’re like, we hate those emails.

Can you stop them? So, you know, talk to your clients and figure out, is this something you want? Is it something that you need? Is it something you pay attention to? And if not, let’s figure out a way. Is it okay if we stop it or, or rejigger it or tweak it or do whatever it is that we have to do to it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah.

Because why waste your time creating a report that nobody is actually using? And, the problem is that we all accumulate new reports. We keep adding things, but we almost never go back and say, are you still using this? Do we, do we still need to keep sending this? And, and a lot of times when I would work with agencies or even internal teams over the years, I would be getting things months after it was still useful, years in some cases after it was still useful.

And, and that doesn’t make any sense at all. Even if they’re automated reports, you still need to prune them because part of the problem with automated reports is you forget to maintain them. So while, while it doesn’t take any staff time to create them. You know, let’s say it’s an automated report out of a media monitoring service.

You can have these things spitting out, but if you’re not updating it with new products and services, brand changes or messaging changes or things that have gone through, then people on the other end, they might be looking at it, but they might be getting the wrong impression.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chip Griffin: Because you forgot that this automated thing was going out.

And so you really need to have a strong inventory of these things to make sure that, that you’re maximizing the effort that you are putting in.

Gini Dietrich: Okay. So we prune everything and we say, we don’t need this anymore. We need to tweak this and we should continue this. Then what should we do?

Chip Griffin: I mean, anytime you’re talking about a report, I always encourage you to think about what’s the business decision this is influencing? Because it can be, you know, sort of easy to say, well, let’s just, let’s generate a report on all of the media hits that we’ve gotten or all of the calls we’ve made or whatever. But, but if you look at it and say, okay, well, what decision am I going to make based on this information?

And, and if there is no decision that is going to be influenced by whatever you’re getting in that report, that’s a good candidate for not doing. Flip side. You start with. What is the business decision we’re trying to make? Do we want to spend more on advertising? Do we want to change our messaging? Okay, cool.

Now, what reports would help me to make that decision more effectively? Because you need to lead with the business side, not with what’s easy to generate from the tool, or what have you done for other people in the past, or any of these things. It’s really got to be driven by the business decision that’s going to be helped with that report.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I would look at things like, okay, if we’re, if, if you’re responsible, if you’re on the B2B side and you’re responsible for helping to qualify sales leads then what’s the report that’s going to help you generate that. And if you’re on the consumer side and your sole job is to. build brand awareness.

What are the reports that are going to help you with that? And you know, there’s conversation. There was actually just a conversation about this in Counselor’s Academy about what are the right KPIs for those kinds of things. And so you have to figure out what the KPIs are and then figure out what reports are going to support those things.

And I will tell you the AI is getting pretty smart on this stuff where it can start to analyze the reports for you. So if you have the correct reports, you can throw those into your generative AI tool of choice and say, compare this to this or do this and that, and it will do it and it will pump out graphics and everything for you.

So it’s not as cumbersome or overwhelming, especially for right brain professionals that it used to be. So there are things that you can do to make it really easy and profitable for yourself.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think that’s the, it’s the most obvious use of reporting is to, to take a look at the KPIs that you have for the work that you’re doing, report on that.

It helps to prove the, the ROI to the client, right, which helps to improve retention, which helps to improve profitability. So that is probably the most glaringly obvious use of reporting. to help your profitability. But again, you need to understand what is your client actually trying to achieve so that you can have those KPIs that you can then fuel reporting around.

If you can do that, then it really has a benefit in helping the client to see the value of the work that you’re doing, and therefore typically want to continue to work with you.

Gini Dietrich: At the same time, I will say that this is the bane of our existence, especially for the work that I do as a communications professional, because much of the work that we do can’t be directly correlated to sales.

It’s great for building trust. It’s great for building authority. You’re building great brand awareness, but can you correlate that directly to sales? Usually not. What it does correlate to is the sales team saying, Oh my gosh, every time I make a cold call, the person on the other end knows who we are.

Great. But how does that correlate to sales? And so what you have to do is figure out how to meet your clients in the middle so that you can show the ROI in the middle part where if your sales team is making a cold call and it’s, it’s reducing the calls by three times because the person on the other end already knows what is that in a dollar value to you.

And so there’s, I think there’s a lot of like working through that. And, and to your point earlier about, you know, you may have automated a report and it was working six months ago, but isn’t anymore. Same thing. You have to have those consistent conversations with your clients to say, okay, we are able to, we were able to do X with brand awareness and it correlated or it helped sales do Y. Where’s that, where are we meeting that in the middle? And you have to continue to have those conversations.

Chip Griffin: And to your point, you may need to do reporting on intermediate steps, but you need to have the conversation so that people understand this is why it matters, right?

So it may not be directly reporting on what they’re trying to achieve, but you’ve educated them on why it helps them to achieve that. And so then you can report on those intermediate things. And, you know, I love being able to have sales reps provide feedback on how media is working, right? I mean, to what we were talking about earlier in this episode, this podcast is very helpful to me from a business development standpoint.

I don’t think there is, I don’t think I’ve ever had a client sign up who has not listened to at least an episode of this podcast, usually more than one and consumed videos and articles and all that kind of stuff. So I know that there is clear ROI on this beyond the enjoyment I have in doing it. And so, you know, obviously it’s easier for me because I am both the content creator and the sales rep.

So, but you can find similar ways. And if you need to find ways to survey clients or things like that, that, you know, there are opportunities to create reports that you actually get paid for, right? So that’s another way to turn it into a profit center is to say, look, you know, if you were to do a survey or some other kind of analysis, we can help you to figure out what’s working, even if it’s not even directly something we’re controlling.

So think about how you can pitch additional reports that might be of interest to your clients. Because there are a lot of agencies out there that do explicitly charge for certain kinds of reports. I mean, if you’re doing an in depth media analysis on a quarterly basis, most agencies explicitly charge for that.

You don’t have to give it away for free. For sure. It means you got to position it and explain the value, but you can do that. And that’s another way by actually selling the reports that you can turn it into a profit center.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we have one client who came to us at the beginning of this year and said, Hey, we want to start tracking our NPS score.

Can you help us with that? And so that’s one thing that we charge extra for. We were like, yeah, but you know, it’s going to cost this, but they were like, great, do it. And so we do every, we, what we did is we, built it, we created everything and then we send it out to current clients and then we built it into the system so that after six, after a customer of theirs is with them for six months, they automatically get the survey and so it keeps it ongoing and rolling.

So every month we get a little extra boost to our invoice for, for that, because we’ve, we’ve built it into the process and it’s an ongoing thing. So I think there are opportunities for you to do that, those kinds of things for sure to, to build some more. oomph into your budget.

Chip Griffin: And you can use the reporting to come up with other new opportunities.

Right? So the report itself doesn’t have to be up, but you can use it internally with your team, whether that’s coming up with ideas for content or members of the media to target. I mean, your databases are great, but what’s even better is figuring out what they’re writing about and they’ve written about something similar.

And so therefore maybe they’re interested. There’s a lot of things that we can do with reporting that will help our internal teams either come up with ideas for other initiatives that we can try to get a client to sign up for, or just to make ourselves more efficient in what we’re doing on a day to day basis.

And so we ought to be thinking about how can we leverage reports internally to grow the accounts.

Gini Dietrich: Love that. Yes, I love that. I love that. I love that. Really looking at you know, one of the things we do pretty consistently as we look at our google analytics Which is kind of a pain in the butt right now because if you want to go back past 2024 you have to download all the stupid stuff that is no longer available in google analytics But that’s neither here nor there, but we do

Chip Griffin: and what’s currently available in GA4 is rubbish.

Absolute rubbish.

Terrible! It’s so bad.

And that’s, that is not the subject of this episode, but God, I mean, GA4 is just the worst thing that’s happened to web analytics in the 30 plus years that I’ve been involved with the internet.

Gini Dietrich: But we do, we will go back and look like a year ago. What kind of content was resonating and what kind of long tail effect does it have?

And then that helps us start to look at new types of content. Or should we repurpose stuff that is, that already exists? So it gives us the opportunity to look at, Oh, wow, this topic really resonated. Let’s continue down that path and maybe build a guide or do some, a video series or something like that.

So you have all of this data available to you. Use it. Don’t be scared of it.

Chip Griffin: No, I mean, it’s, there’s a sea of information out there. You just need to figure out what it is that’s going to help you to do your job more efficiently, more effectively, or to prove your ROI better. Absolutely. And if you sit down and you’re actually thoughtful about reporting and you don’t view it as a mundane task that you’re assigning to an intern, right?

I mean, how many times do we see it? You know, you assign the reporting to the lowest person on the totem pole, you give them very little guidance and just say, replicate this thing we’ve already been doing. That’s silly. Reporting should be a much more important function within your agency business, because it has so much value when it’s done right.

And it can actually harm you when it’s done wrong. Correct. And worst case, it just, I mean, or sort of best worst case, it just sucks a lot of resources to, to create and nobody ever looks at them. Yeah. But why not leverage it for more? Why not do better things with it?

Gini Dietrich: It’s so funny you say that because I used to have somebody.

Do all the reporting for us. And I didn’t feel like I was getting the insights as well as when I did it myself. And so I stopped that practice and I said, let’s try this for six months and I’m going to do this. And yeah, is it a pain in the butt for sure? Is it something that I totally enjoy? No, but once I all have all the data in front of me, it’s easier for me to analyze it because A, I know.

How it was pulled and what kinds of information I prompted it to get what I needed and B, I have it all in front of me in one fell swoop. So I can say, okay, Based on this, I can see this, this, and this. And it was a lot harder for me to do that when somebody else was prompting it and pulling it. So I agree with you.

I think it’s a senior level job and it’s not something that you should have an administrative assistant or VA or an intern do.

Chip Griffin: Well, to be clear, I’m not saying that Gini Dietrich should be producing the reports herself, but Gini Dietrich should absolutely be involved with the process in an active way. I think, you know, the legwork can certainly be done by somebody else.

But if you’re not, if you’re not providing as a senior executive in the agency, if you’re not providing active guidance, and you’re actively using those reports. If you’re not doing those things, then you’re making a mistake. If it is all happening at that junior level, whether that’s a junior employee, intern, VA, whatever, if it all happens there, you’re blind to it.

It comes into your inbox. You don’t even read it. That’s right. Just goes off. That’s where the problem is. And, typically you want to be, even if a junior is producing it, someone like Gini Dietrich should be putting a cover message on it that says, here’s what it means, because so much reporting is done, just a, it’s a data dump.

Put it in context. I mean, anytime I had someone who was producing reports for me and they just sent me the data dump, I told him, you got to I mean, to go back to our episode from a few weeks ago. So what, tell me what it means. What do I need to pay attention to? What is different here? I don’t want to have to pull up every report you’ve done for me every month for the last six months to figure out.

You tell me. You’re looking, you’re in the weeds on this. You need to tell me what’s important and what I need to be paying attention to and why.

Gini Dietrich: And like I said earlier, AI can help you with that. And especially if you start to train it and you create your own custom GPT for a client, you say, okay, every month I’m going to dump the data into this GPT and I’m going to, I’m going to start training on, on the kinds of things that I’m looking for. Six months from now, you can say

do a comparison or do an analysis from this month to this month and show me what the differences are. Tell me what the strengths are. Tell me what the weaknesses are. Tell me what we’re missing. Tell me if there’s anything that could be a threat. And it does it all in seconds for you. Is it completely flawless?

No. But does it give you a really good starting point? For sure. And it makes things a lot, a lot easier for you to go, okay. Oh, you know what? I didn’t even think about that. Let me dig into that. And it starts to like, there’ve been a couple of times where I’ve missed a couple of things that the AI has said, this might be a threat and I’ve started to dig into it and it was, it was right.

And it gave us the opportunity to dig into something further. And. actually helped to mitigate an issue that could have come up for a client. So do not be afraid to use artificial intelligence for this either.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Leverage the AI, make sure that you’re still putting human eyes on it.

Don’t use it as a crutch to automatically generate anything. Cause now you’re right back where we started. You still need to be able to look at it. You still need to be able to understand what you’re saying to a client or what you’re saying internally, if you’re a junior speaking to a senior, but if you can figure those things out, you will be able to get so much more value out of the reports.

You’ll get rid of the ones that are useless or not doing something that you actually need. And you will turn reporting from a mundane, horrible task that we don’t want to do into something that’s actually a profit center for your agency.

Gini Dietrich: Love it. I love to make more money. It’s a great idea.

Chip Griffin: So with that, you can all now stop listening to this episode and go make money by improving your reporting.

Gini Dietrich: Go make money.

Chip Griffin: Go make money or just go make money some other way. I don’t care how you make money. I just want you to make money. What’d you make? Well, and legally. So with that, before we go completely off the rails, we’re going to draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the pros and cons of using LinkedIn for agency growth and professional engagement. They touch upon the challenges of spam and overautomation, and emphasize the importance of personalized, thoughtful interactions.

They also share strategies for repurposing content, such as tailoring blog posts to different audiences when posting on LinkedIn. They address the increased use of LinkedIn direct messages for networking and provide insights on effective commenting. Additionally, they briefly discuss the appropriateness of political posts on LinkedIn and recommend focusing on values rather than partisan views.

Key takeaways

• Gini Dietrich: “Writing LinkedIn comments that are thoughtful and interesting are going to be so much more effective than having AI summarize the content for you and write the comment. Please don’t do that.”
• Chip Griffin: “LinkedIn works best like most social platforms when you’re being genuine and and authentic.”
• Gini Dietrich: “If you’re going to produce new content on LinkedIn, I love the idea of testing out a topic or an idea. Or repurpose other content, and you really only have to do something once a week.”
• Chip Griffin: “LinkedIn direct messages should be from one human to another human. Period. Stop.”

Related

• How agencies can get the most out of LinkedIn (featuring Chuck Hester)
• How agencies can use LinkedIn ads to grow their businesses (featuring Anthony Blatner)
• The future of events and other agency biz dev tactics

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, you know, I think maybe I’ll just start sending you direct messages on LinkedIn from now on. That’s the only way I’ll communicate with you.

Gini Dietrich: Awesome. Well, that’s one way.

Chip Griffin: It’s one way.

Gini Dietrich: I might not get back to you immediately.

Chip Griffin: The problem is, I was going to say, if you respond to me, I probably will not see, cause I get so much spam in my LinkedIn direct messages that I very rarely actually look at them. And usually as soon as I do, I will tell whoever legitimate is reaching out to me that I do want to talk to. Here’s my email address.

Send me an email. We can, we can pick it up over there. Cause you’ll get a much more timely response.

Gini Dietrich: Do you accept all LinkedIn connection requests?

Chip Griffin: I do not.

Gini Dietrich: Okay.

Chip Griffin: I used years ago I used to do that, but then I got flooded with just a bunch of junk and, and nowadays so many spammers are, I mean, just obvious spammers are many are trying to connect many.

So at this point, I, I’m looser than I used to be in that I don’t only connect with people who I actually know. I will also connect with agency owners, for example, if they’re, they appear to be, you know, operating a legitimate agency and not one who’s trying to spam me. Sometimes I guess wrong. And then all of a sudden I’ve opened up my inbox to nonsensical pitches, but most of the time I’m pretty good at guessing.

 So yeah, it’s tough. LinkedIn is a great platform, and these days it’s one of the few where you can actually communicate professionally because X/Twitter has sort of, well, not sort of, it has deteriorated. It’s become sort of a little bit of business and lots of cesspool.

Gini Dietrich: Definitely a dumpster fire.

Chip Griffin: So, you know, as useful as it used to be, it is not useful today.

So I thought it’d be helpful if we talked about LinkedIn and, and thought about how are agencies using it? How can agencies use it? Not so much on behalf of their clients, but on behalf of themselves, growing their business, learning, all that kind of thing. And, and I think there are some do’s and don’ts. I think we can share some things from our experience that we’ve seen work and that we have seen not work so much and things that frankly irritate us.

We’ll, we’ll certainly mix those things in.

Gini Dietrich: Of course, because we’re not us without it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, if we didn’t complain about something, people, people would think that they were listening to a different podcast. So plenty of plenty of whine with this episode.

Gini Dietrich: Plenty of whine. We love to whine. You know, there was actually a Spin Sucks community discussion about this.

And somebody had posted, are you using LinkedIn in a way that’s different from your content on the blog or is it the same? And I think it started a really nice conversation because I think, you know, to our tagline, it depends, right? You know, for me, I do use the same content, but what I do is I, I write first for PR firm or PR professionals, communicators, because that’s our target audience on the Spin Sucks side.

And so that’s, that’s who I write for first. But then when I repost usually about two months later to LinkedIn. I rejigger the content to be focused on the business leader. So while I might talk about with a PR professional, I might talk about the things that you should do to prepare your CEO to speak out on politics or to take a stance on their values.

I’ll rejigger that content so that it’s to the business leader to talk about here are the things that you should be thinking about. So it’s, I don’t have to do a complete rewrite, but I do have to switch it up a little bit to be more focused on the audience there. I have seen some like Martin Waxman and Andy Crestodina.

They both create content for their blogs and then just do a complete repurpose on LinkedIn. Same day that it’s published to the blog, it’s publishes to LinkedIn and it’s the same content. Different audiences, maybe not the same subscribers. There might be some overlap, but I think that they’re just doing a complete, complete, like just copy and paste essentially.

So I think there are pros and cons and it depends on your audiences, right? If your audience for the blog is the same as the audience in LinkedIn, then that probably makes sense. But if it’s not, then you should think about who your audience is for both places.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think sometimes it can make sense to split them even if it is a similar audience because then you can have an opportunity to have another bite at the apple, right?

So if you post to your blog and someone is busy that week or on vacation or something like that, And then you post in on LinkedIn, you know, three, four weeks later or a month or two later. Well, now, now they’ve, they’ve got another opportunity to see it. So I, I think personally that there is some value in splitting out content.

The place where I don’t do that is with my newsletter. So with, with my email newsletter, I do match that with LinkedIn. Usually LinkedIn is a little bit delayed by half a day or so, from the, the email. Honestly, that’s more because I post manually to LinkedIn and we’ve, scheduled with email so so that timing really depends on what my day looks like on Fridays when I when I post it and occasionally I don’t get to it doesn’t go up till Saturday because it’s a manual post. But you know, I do think that repurposing content in some fashion is beneficial.

The other thing that I do is I will test things on LinkedIn. So I will, I will write a shorter version or something that I’m thinking about writing a longer piece on and just kind of throw it out there, see if it gets any reaction. If it doesn’t get any, that doesn’t, doesn’t mean necessarily I won’t pursue it, but if it gets a strong reaction lots of feedback, then it makes it much more likely I, I bubble it up higher in my queue to do a full article on.

Gini Dietrich: That’s a really good idea. That’s, that’s a good best practice. I think for agencies. There are some people who are doing a really nice job there. I think, you know, there it, There are some that I started out thinking they were doing a nice job, but then it got to be overwhelming because it was multiple times a day or at least daily, which I think is too much because the algorithm isn’t like the other places where it’s showing you people you don’t know.

The algorithm on LinkedIn is still showing you people, you know, which is great. Or people that you follow, which is great. That’s, that’s what it should do. But it also gives you content from those same people. Quite a lot. And you’re just the, every time you, every time I open LinkedIn, there’s one person there all the time.

Like you’re smart, but I don’t need to see you 25 times a day.

Chip Griffin: I think I know who that is, but I will, I will let that, I’ve, I’ve actually got a couple of those who are multiple times a day posters. And so my feed tends to be fairly inundated with them all, not necessarily always in a timely fashion. I think, you know, right now, the, as we record this, the, the LinkedIn algorithm seems to prefer not more than one post a day, as far as actually getting, broad distribution.

And I can tell you from looking at my own numbers, that it seems to be anecdotally backed up that that on days where I do more than one, they both suffer or all of them. Interesting. If I do more than than two. You know, that said, LinkedIn will keep posts around for a fairly long period of time.

Gini Dietrich: It does. Yep.

Chip Griffin: So, you know, I don’t necessarily think you even need to be certainly I don’t think you need to post multiple times a day. I think if you’ve got the urge to be creating that much content on LinkedIn, that’s fine. But but do the other things as comments, because those will also bubble up in feeds.

Gini Dietrich: They do bubble up.

Chip Griffin: Which which you have the added benefit that you’re engaging with someone else who’s got a different audience than you do.

So your folks will still see it because it will say Chip Griffin commented on. And so they’re still seeing your thoughts. They’re still seeing you being active. And so to me, my advice would be if you want to be that active on LinkedIn, that’s great. Just use it in the comment field as opposed to creating fresh posts, you know, every two hours.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I will say, though, on the comments that I have noticed this on my own content that there are a certain number of agencies, a handful of agencies who have maybe said to their team, somebody on their team, you’re in charge of LinkedIn and I got advice to be commenting on content. So I’d like you to read these people and then comment on their content as the agency.

Nothing wrong with that. However, there are some that are having AI analyze the content, provide a synopsis, and then write the comment. And as the person who is receiving the comment, I can tell that that’s what’s happening. I know every single time if that’s what’s happened. And quite honestly, it makes your agency look dumb.

Like it doesn’t, it doesn’t provide any value. It doesn’t provide any thought leadership. It doesn’t provide any value. And there’s no ability for us, for us to engage because it’s literally a robot who is, who has created it. So I will say that if you take the extra time to write a thoughtful comment that allows for engagement, especially on content where, you know, it’s, it’s an influencer that’s going to do business with you.

It’s a journalist. It’s, a prospect, somebody who you’d love to do work with. Writing comments that are thoughtful and interesting are going to be so much more effective than having the AI summarize the content for you and write the comment. Please don’t do that.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, look, LinkedIn works best like most of most social platforms when you’re being genuine and and authentic to overuse that that term that’s been around for as long as social media has been. And so you need to be directly engaging with people in a way that you’re able to demonstrate what you actually think and who you actually are.

Gini Dietrich: Right.

Chip Griffin: I mean, it’s okay to, to show a bit of your personality. So if you see my comments on LinkedIn, there’s probably going to be a little bit of snark, sarcasm, and humor in there because that’s generally what I do. And so if I don’t have that, you know, then I’m probably too tired that day to put that effort in who knows.

But, but it, it shouldn’t read like AI. It shouldn’t be something you have an intern do. It should be something that you ae doing personally. Even if that means you do a lot less of it, because it really is about the quality of it not the quantity of it. And speaking of quantity, these, these folks who like to spam tag people in their posts, right?

Where they, they put together a post and they, and there are two ways. There’s the really awful way, which is at the end, they, they post like three paragraphs and at the end, they just have a long list of people that they’re tagging.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: That I find to be utterly obnoxious. Yes. And, and it, and 100% agree, and, and I, 99.9% of the time will not take the bait.

If I get tagged, I will not comment. I will, I will ignore you. Just stop it. Other people will do it where they, they tag a bunch of people, but it’s in the, they do it in the text like, well, you know, Chip said this and Gini said that, and Yep, yep. Okay. If it, if it actually fits. Okay. But, but don’t, I don’t see the need to just chalk it full of it.

I mean, sometimes I will, I will share as I did actually over the weekend. I, I shared an article that Sharon Torek wrote on classification of independent contractors and I tagged her in that because that’s the right thing to do. She had a great resource. I was pointing the resource out and directing people to it.

That makes sense. Now, if I had done that and then tagged every other lawyer in the agency field or every other HR person in the agency field, I mean, to me, that would be silly and not productive. So be thoughtful about it. Absolutely tag people when it’s relevant, but don’t just tag people so that you, you know, hope to trick the algorithm or bait people into commenting or whatever.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I’m, I’m the same way where I’m just like, Oh, come on, really? And then you read the comment or the content and you’re like, I don’t know why you tagged me in this. Right. Ah! Yes. Right. Yeah, it’s playing on their audience, which I think is shady.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, and occasionally if you’re trying to be provocative, you know, you know that, I don’t know, you know that I’m opposed to RFPs, you post something, you know, pro RFP, and then you tag me, you know, so what do you think?

I don’t love that either, but at least it makes, it kind of makes sense in that context. And, and sometimes I will take the bait on that because I, you know, I can’t help that.

Gini Dietrich: Can’t help yourself?

Chip Griffin: No, I can’t help myself.

Gini Dietrich: Now everyone knows the secret. Just post that RFPs are great.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, there you go. Anyway, please don’t do that.

Gini Dietrich: I’ll give you a list of things you could post about and tag him.

Chip Griffin: It’s probably better to give them a list of things that won’t get me riled up because I am, I am easily provoked. In any case, so, so speaking of being provoked and, and, you know, not necessarily being thoughtful in what you post, let’s talk about politics.

And I don’t mean, let’s actually talk about politics, but should people be talking about politics on LinkedIn? Cause I, I mean, I have seen a lot more political posts in my LinkedIn feed in the past few months than probably my entire history of being on LinkedIn. I mean, political stuff used to be relegated to primarily to Twitter, maybe a little bit on Facebook, but LinkedIn was pretty much a, a politics and religion free zone.

And it, it seems like it is perhaps because Twitter has its issues, people have decided that, well, might as well share it here. Or maybe it’s the people are buying into this whole concept that people want to know what companies think, which I think is rubbish, by the way. I don’t think people want to know what companies think on issues.

Gini Dietrich: I think, I think that this is probably a topic for a different day. I think that people want to understand i if I am pro choice. I want to understand if you are donating money to anti abortion organizations. I think that people do want to know that. And I see this with the kids a lot where they’re like, I’m not gonna, they won’t go to Chick-fil-A.

They will not go to Chick-fil-A because they understand that it does not support their values. Doesn’t matter how good their french fries are. These kids will not go to Chick-fil-A. That’s neither here nor there. What I think the challenge is, is you can talk about things that are happening in the world without making it political.

So instead of like, Sticker Mule, who a couple of weeks ago sent an email saying, Oh, everybody’s mad because Trump’s a bad guy and I don’t think he’s a bad guy. I think that we should be able to support him and go Trump and here, buy a t shirt. That’s not the right way to do it. If you want to talk about the fact that there was an assassination attempt on him and that we should call for unity, and this is the way that our country is divided as ridiculous, that’s a different message, but saying that I support Trump and I’m scared to say that because I think people are going to come after me is not the right message. So when you think about, and this is, this goes for your clients too. Like when you think about how you’re going to position it, think about it less from a political standpoint and more from a, it’s a value or it’s a stance or it’s like the, the issue. Like I’m against climate change.

And I think we should do X, Y and Z. I’m against guns and I think that we should have gun control because of X, Y and Z. So it’s less about the politics and more about the issues. I think that some people do it well, and some people don’t. Sticker Mule’s a great example of not doing it well at all.

Chip Griffin: So, so I, I, I think we should add this to our list of topics for a future conversation, talking more about politics generally and, and what agencies should do, how they should advise clients, that kind of stuff.

Because I, even though our own politics here are somewhat meshed, I, I think that, my views of how you can talk about politics and whether you should talk about politics may be a bit different than most people. So I, I think that’s probably a worthwhile conversation and out of the corner of my eye I can see you already typing it into our, our shared Google Doc where we have topics.

So, but, but I think when it comes to LinkedIn, I, I think you do need to be careful about talking about politics, period, because it’s, it is not the conventional thing to discuss on politics or, to discuss on LinkedIn. So if you are going to do it, you need to be really thoughtful about it, because it is, it, it jumps out at you a lot more when you see it there.

Sure. And, and so the reactions are likely to be stronger as a result. If you see someone commenting on politics on Twitter, you’re like, of course, that’s that’s what they do. And maybe you kind of move on. You see it on LinkedIn. And if you disagree with it, in particular, you are likely to have an even stronger reaction, I think, than if you saw the exact same thing posted by the exact same person on another platform.

So just be mindful of that, if you’re going to talk about politics on LinkedIn. So in general, I would encourage you not to. I don’t, I don’t think unless it is core to your business, like if you’re running an advocacy firm or something, advocacy agency, of course, sure. Talk about politics, right? I mean, that’s, that’s your key audience, but really think about whether your audience wants to be hearing you chatting about politics on, on LinkedIn.

So that would be my general advice there, but…

Gini Dietrich: I think generally I would agree with that.

Chip Griffin: But we can look at the topic more broadly as well in a future episode, because I think, particularly as we get deeper into political season here in the U. S., how we’re acting as agencies and leaders and how we’re advising our clients, you know, we need to be thoughtful about that, too, because there are a lot of things to take into consideration.

But back to LinkedIn. So, you know, the other area that we haven’t, we started the conversation here was on direct messaging on LinkedIn. And so, you know, how do you, how do you go about using direct messages properly on LinkedIn?

Gini Dietrich: So I’ve actually noticed a big increase in DMing with journalists on LinkedIn, which has never happened.

And probably in the last 30 or 45 days, I’ve gotten more requests there via DM from journalists than anywhere else. So I would say number one, pay attention to that, especially for PR firms, because that seems to be where people are going. I also read a Columbia Journal, Journalism Institute article that said they’re going to Reddit as well.

So that’s another thing, but that’s not the topic of today. But I’ve seen a big increase in that. I’ve seen, seen a big increase in, inviting like guests for podcasting and things like that., And I’ve seen a gigantic increase in, we can, and we’ve talked about this before, we can get you 10 to 12 new clients a month.

Can we set that up for you? Like, no, I don’t want 10 to 12 new clients a month. No, stop it. I mean, I probably get 10 of those a day. A day, which is crap.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, and my favorite is I haven’t heard back from you on this. And you get that more in email because LinkedIn, at least if it’s in mail, you can’t hit someone repeatedly. Email, I get it all the time where people will follow up a few days later. I haven’t heard back from you on this yet. You’re not gonna, cause it’s a

dumb ass request and I’m not paying any attention to it. You know, the same thing people want to be guests on this podcast on something that’s not even related to agencies.

A, we have never had a guest we’ve been doing this for six years now. We have never had a single guest. So don’t pitch me on get, and by the way, if you’re going to make it relevant to agencies, at least.

Gini Dietrich: I got one yes this morning that was, I, I stopped by your facility over the weekend and noticed you could use a cleaning crew.

Oh, did you now?

Chip Griffin: Cleaning services are all, it’s unbelievable. Who is out there that’s running these janitorial service campaigns that spam people? Because I get it on every email account for all of my businesses right now. I mean, do you need janitors? No, I don’t have an office For any of the businesses I don’t care what and the funny thing is I will get like three of them in a row because I have multiple websites for the different businesses and they all get spammed at the same time Come on guys, this is just stupid Please stop it, knock it off.

But if you’re going to do direct messaging, then make sure that you are also making it clear that it is actually a personalized message. So by the way, make sure it’s personalized message. Please, dear God, do not hire these agencies that do it for you. And I’m sorry to any of you agencies out there who may be listening.

Please do not run direct messaging campaigns on LinkedIn. LinkedIn direct messages should be from one human to another human. Period. Stop. Just knock it off. It is, LinkedIn is a very inconvenient platform for doing direct messaging on. In fact, if someone messaged me on LinkedIn, I always just say, email me.

Here you go. Here’s my email address. I’m happy. I’m like, publish my email address online. It’s not hard to find me. Let’s move it over there because I will be able to respond to you in a more timely fashion. I will not miss messages. If you send it on LinkedIn, I miss them because there’s so much spam in there.

I don’t look at them very often. Yeah. It’s hard to mark something for follow up. You know, if it comes into my inbox, I just flag it and say, okay, I can’t respond right now, but I’ll respond at the end of the day or tomorrow morning. Whenever I’m doing my next batch of responses. You can’t do that on LinkedIn. The same reason I don’t accept text messages from anybody.

I don’t even give anybody a real text number. Okay, you have the real text number. Fine. I, I, as soon as I started saying it, I could see the gears churning in your head. You were going to, you were going to brag about the fact that you were one of like five people who has my actual real text number.

Gini Dietrich: In fairness though, it did take six years to get it.

Chip Griffin: Would you like to share with listeners why you got it?

We’ll tell that story another day.

Gini Dietrich: I would like, I would, I will definitely tell that story another day. Yes.

Chip Griffin: In any case, so do we have other advice on LinkedIn while we’re at it or should we just?

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s don’t be, don’t be gross. Don’t use AI to write your comments. If you’re going to produce new content there, I love the idea of testing out, you know, a topic or an idea.

Just as a short post that you discussed in doing that. Repurpose other content, and you really only have to do something once a week. It doesn’t have to be every day.

Chip Griffin: Right. For fresh content. I mean, I think youshould be on there every day, commenting, liking, doing things like that. And from a networking perspective, a business development perspective, it’s fantastic because when you hit like on a post, what happens?

That person gets a notification. When you comment, what happens? That person gets a notification. When you tag them, they get a notification. You can write recommendations. They get a notification. They get a warm, fuzzy feeling. There are so many things that you can do with LinkedIn to just stay on someone’s radar.

And it doesn’t require a lot of, I mean, literally just hitting like. If you’ve got people who you would like to work with, just periodically hit like on one of their posts. I mean, it’s so simple and yet it will keep your name out there. So that they’re like, Oh, right.

Gini Dietrich: It’s a great idea.

Chip Griffin: Keep it simple. Keep it simple.

You don’t, it doesn’t need to be really complicated.

Gini Dietrich: Yep. I like it.

Chip Griffin: All right. Well, we’ll keep it really simple and draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the pivotal role of trust within agency teams. They explore common scenarios where agency owners struggle with trusting their employees, often due to micromanagement tendencies, ill-defined roles, or unrealistic expectations.

They emphasize the importance of clear communication, proper onboarding, and creating an environment where employees feel trusted and empowered. They also address the importance of identifying whether the lack of trust stems from the owner’s behavior or if the employee is possibly not the right fit for the role. Practical steps such as implementing standard operating procedures and incremental training are suggested to foster a trust-based work environment.

Key takeaways

• Gini Dietrich: “Not trusting your team is a symptom of a larger problem, and the larger problem is usually things like, I’m a perfectionist, I can’t give up control, I want things done exactly my way.”
• Chip Griffin: “We talk about it a lot, and I know we probably shouldn’t do that because our primary audience is owners, but owners are the root of most of the problems.”
• Gini Dietrich: “Just like any other relationship. You have trust with your partner, you have trust with your spouse, you have trust in your family, with your friends, you can’t have any relationship without trust. It’s the same thing with your team.”
• Chip Griffin: “The stronger the bond of trust is between the employee and the employer, the more performance you will get out of them, the better your retention of key employees will be.”

Related

• Micromanage your way to agency failure
• Building trust and letting your team shine
• Letting go as an agency owner

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: Gini, do you trust me?

Gini Dietrich: I do, actually.

Chip Griffin: Wow.

Gini Dietrich: Very much.

Chip Griffin: That’s probably your first mistake of many on this episode. So no, we’re going to talk about trust today. And we’re not-

Gini Dietrich: We are, but before we do that, I have an announcement to make.

Happy birthday.

Chip Griffin: Thank you.

Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome.

Chip Griffin: When people listen to this, that will be well in the past, but Yeah, for now. For now it’s a day in the future.

Gini Dietrich: When we’re recording it, it’s tomorrow, right?

Chip Griffin: Correct. very much. I appreciate it.

Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome.

Chip Griffin: I appreciate even more that you’re not going to sing to me, so.

Gini Dietrich: No, you don’t want me to sing.

Chip Griffin: No. Just as I do not sing to you, you will not sing to me. And all will be good. And we’ll continue to trust each other. Fair. All right. So, trust. I see a recurring theme with a lot of agency owners that either explicitly or implicitly, they do not trust some or all of their team.

And if you ask them that most of them will not say, well, it’s not that I don’t trust them. It’s that I just don’t know if they can do this or, you know, I need to keep an eye on this or all of these things. But I, I think trust is fundamental to any relationship. I think it is critically important to the relationship between an employer and an employee.

And, and the trust needs to go beyond, well, you know, I trust they’re not going to steal from me. I trust they’re not going to, you know, do something directly harmful. It means you need to trust them to do their job on a daily basis. And, and if you do not trust them, you need to do something to address that.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think, I think one of the. I think that trust, not trusting your team is a symptom of a larger problem, and the larger problem is usually things like, I’m a perfectionist, I’m a, I can’t give up control, I want things done exactly my way, it’s that. The trust piece is a symptom of those things. And as agency owners, and this is something we continue to talk about on the show, and I think we both talk to, advise with our clients, is, If you’re going to trust your team, you have to trust them to do the job that you hired them to do.

And one of the things I see is that somebody will start and the agency’s owner is really excited about their new hire and they are going to do this and this and this together and 30 days or 60 days or 90 days later, they’re completely disenchanted. And it’s because they haven’t been honest with themselves about what that role is and what those expectations are.

And I think that they expect. People to come in and work magic and, and work miracles. And that’s just not the, that’s just not the case. Like you, if you hire, let’s say you hire somebody with two years of experience and they come in and you’re all hot to trot and they’re really good at research. And they’re really good at drafting content and they’re really good at building media lists, but they don’t..

They’re not good at client communications yet, or they’re not good at strategy. And we expect them to be that even, and we forget that they only have two years of experience. And if they’re going to get that kind of experience and be good at those kinds of things, it’s up to us to coach them and mentor them to get them there.

And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges is we expect people, no matter what experience level they have, to be able to do more and to just sort of come in and go here, let me take all that crap off the plate and go up here and do it, and that’s just not how things work. Unfortunately.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely.

And so I think anytime that you are saying to yourself, I don’t trust this person or you even have that inkling, like, I’m not sure I trust that person. You really need to get to the root of what that is. Because it, it can be that your expectations are simply mismatched, as you say, right? So it, you may be expecting far more from them than what they are capable of, either at that point or even ever.

And so, you know, you may feel like you don’t trust them for that reason, in which case you need to reset what their responsibilities are. It might be that you are just a micromanager, and we’ve talked about this a lot, you need to let go of certain things. And so, that might be what you need to address.

But it also might be that that employee is actually not a good fit. And so if you, if you cannot resolve the trust issue, then you have to move on from that employee. You can’t just continue to work with someone that you don’t trust. You absolutely need to adjust the situation in some fashion. And if you cannot solve it, then you need to move on from that employee because it’s not fair to either of you to continue that kind of relationship.

It’s just doomed to fail.

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. And you’re, you’re right. There are going to be situations where they’re not going to fit, but I think if you, if it’s a year into the relationship and you don’t trust the person or the trust has eroded, then that’s probably, it’s probably not a benefit. But if you’re within the first 90 days or the first six months or even the first year, and you haven’t built that trust and you haven’t trusted that person to do their job, then I venture to guess the problem is usually you.

And for all the reasons we’ve just said, right, because as agency owners, we all, I’m, I’m the same way. We all tend to sort of hoard things ourselves. We think the clients want to only hear from us. We don’t trust other people to do things like pitch top tier media or write strategic plans or write long form content or whatever happens to be.

And, and we don’t give up the control. We, and we micromanage it. And so when I’m working with clients, one of the first things I look at as we start to investigate is. What’s happening right now? And I’m telling you, 99. 9 percent of the time it’s the agency owner.

Chip Griffin: No, I mean, we talk about it a lot, and I know we probably shouldn’t do that because our primary audience is owners, but owners are the root of most of the problems.

Gini Dietrich: Yes, absolutely, yes.

Chip Griffin: That we see, it’s not actually the employees. It’s that the, you know, to the extent that employees are involved, it’s that the expectations are wrong. The training is wrong. The management is wrong. Or you hired the wrong people. And I think a good test for you is if you have a lack of trust in more than one employee at any given time.

Right. If you’re questioning your level of trust in more than one employee, it probably is you. If it’s one, maybe it’s an outlier. Maybe there’s an issue with that employee. But if it’s multiple, then chances are you are either not setting expectations, you are not training, you are not managing, or not hiring correctly.

Because keep in mind, if you’ve got a, if you’ve got a bad employee, it usually means you made a bad hire. And that’s not, there’s no shame in that. We all make bad hires. I have not made 100 percent perfect good hires in my life. Absolutely not. I don’t know anybody who has. Even the best performing organizations have people that they let go because they didn’t make a good hiring decision.

So don’t blame yourself too badly if you have a bad hire. But you need to solve it. You don’t just keep sitting there and saying, You know, banging your head against the wall every day saying, I can’t, you know, I got to do this all myself. I got to redo all this work because I don’t trust them. I can’t, I can’t delegate stuff.

It’s just sitting on my plate. Deal with it.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re hoarding the work and you can’t delegate because you don’t trust them, that’s a big problem. So one of the things I always suggest is. I actually just had this conversation about two weeks ago where somebody was, was saying I’m having a really hard time with the person on my team getting the work done because everything that they submit isn’t right.

And so we dig into it and I say, okay, is it not because it’s not right or it’s because it’s not the way you would word it or phrase it or the way that you would do it. So we’ve discovered that it’s, it’s that, right. Okay. So what are you doing to train that person? Well, I think what I need to do is I need to go in and I need to tell them exactly how to do it.

Let’s, let’s not do that. Why don’t you go to your one to one with them and say, I’m having a challenge with this. How would you solve it and coach them through that? You know, we’ve talked about asking ourselves, so what? So what is the big problem with this? Why am I having such a big challenge with this?

Let’s let them tell you how they’re going to solve it. And then you can coach them through that. Okay. You know, I like that approach. Maybe we should try tweaking this or changing that, or, you know what? That’s a great approach. Let’s do that. So, Instead of saying, well, you need to do this, this, this, and this, which is not good for anybody because nobody likes to be told what to do.

Nobody likes to be micromanaged. You give them the opportunity to tell you what they’re going to do and you can coach them that way. Instead of saying this is the way it has to be done.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and that’s so empowering to the employee by, by saying to them, how would you solve it, right? So they’re more likely to buy into it.

More importantly, it’s a signal that you trust them. And believe me, employees know if they are trusted or not by you. Absolutely. And their performance will continue to degrade the longer they feel like you do not trust them, because they will just, they will phone it in, they will be frustrated. So you need to demonstrate, not just actually trust them, you need to demonstrate that trust and make sure that you’re not doing things that undercuts

that feeling of trust. Because the stronger the bond of trust is between the employee and the employer, the more performance you will get out of them, the better your retention of key employees will be. So trust is just glue that holds you together as a team.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you, I mean, just like any other relationship, right?

Like you have trust with your partner, you have trust with your spouse, you have trust with your, in your family, with your friends, you can’t have any relationship without trust. And it’s the same thing here. How do you, how do you build that mutual trust so that you can, their career thrives and your agency grows and scales and you meet all the goals that you want, you want to meet.

Like, that’s the basis to every relationship. It’s you have to have that trust.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And if you operate from that position of trust, then your, your default should be to assume. That your employees have done things the right way. And you should challenge yourself not to question them unless you really have to. Because it’s really demoralizing to team members when you nitpick every little thing.

And, and it’s, it’s a good idea to sit there and say, okay, what are the most, even if there are multiple things wrong with something that they’ve done, you know, a piece of writing or a project. Focus on the most important ones, the ones that make the biggest difference. Because if I sit down with a team member and I go through 30 things that they did wrong in the last month.

That’s an awful conversation. It’s not fun for either one of us. And even if you do actually trust them, that doesn’t come across as constructive. That comes across as you don’t trust them, and you’re going to tell them exactly how to do their job. And you do need to think of yourself as that coach or mentor to your team.

And I think we’ve talked about this before, but it’s a real challenge for folks, particularly if you’re relatively new to managing. Managers are not there to dictate what people do and how they do it and quote unquote, hold them accountable, which is, I hate that when I hear, I need to hold my team accountable.

No, you need to trust them to do their job. You need to tell them where to go. You need to give them the resources and training they need to get there, but you need to trust them to get there. And if they don’t, then you sit down and figure out why and you ask them what they would do differently. That’s not holding them accountable.

That’s helping them. You need to be helpful and supportive to your team because if you trust them, that’s what you do. You micromanage when you don’t trust.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and, and like I said earlier, nobody likes to be micromanaged. When you, you said something that I, I will repeat because I think this is really important.

When I, usually when I’m working with a client about once a year, I do phone calls with their direct reports just to like understand how things are going and sort of do a 360 review You know, it might be informal. But like understand how things are going and one of the things that I hear pretty consistently with the clients who can’t give up control and micromanage is that their team, even really senior level people who know what they’re doing, stop providing their best work because they know it’s just going to be redone.

So they’re like, yeah, I just get it off my plate. I just check it off my list and I get over there because I know that the I know that the agency owner is just going to redo it. And that’s a really shitty place to be in as an employee It doesn’t make you feel good. Your morale sucks the culture sucks and it’s a really shitty way for them to behave because of the way that you’ve created this problem for them not wanting to do their best work because you’re just going to redo it.

No one wants to work like that. No one.

Chip Griffin: No, I mean, it doesn’t make any sense for anybody to, I mean, it’s just, it’s a bad relationship overall and completely unproductive for everyone, including you as the owner.

Gini Dietrich: Yes. Especially for you as the owner because imagine like some of you are probably in this where you’re like, I hired all these people or I hired this person to help me and I’m doing double the work.

That’s not the point. If you’re doing double the work, you’re not doing something correctly because, and to your point, It could be that that person’s a bad hire, but I’m, I would venture to guess that 90 percent of that is not the reason.

Chip Griffin: Well, I agree. Yeah. I mean, most of the time it’s, it’s not a bad hire.

It may not be an ideal hire, right? You, I mean, the, the number of, of, you know, A plus hires that you do is, is certainly going to be relatively small over the course of a career, right? I mean, you know, but, but most of them should be at least B’s or C’s. If you’ve got a, you know, a D or an F. You know, that should be relatively few and far between.

And for most, it is relatively few and far between. But you need to sit there and ask yourself, you know, why are you feeling compelled to do this? And how can you solve it? And part of that’s working with them, but part of it’s also looking at yourself and what do you need to change? And to your point, as far as, you know, doubling your work, part of the problem is that, that a lot of owners or even your mid level managers, if you happen to have a mid level tier in your agency, you’re not spending enough time with those employees when they first get started.

You’re throwing them into the deep end of the pool and expecting them to be able to just do everything instantly, without any training, without bringing them up to speed on how you want to do things, without trying to do a knowledge transfer between you to them. So if you’re, if you’re not willing to invest that up front, yeah, you’re going to be doubling your work for a long time, because you haven’t set them up for success.

You need to assume when you bring someone in, and it’s tough because most small agencies are really slow to hire, which is good. You don’t want to overstaff and cause yourself financial problems, but because you’re slow to hire, it usually means when you bring someone in, you’re desperate for the extra bandwidth.

And so your, your inclination is just to throw them in and say, Eat as many hours as you can. Do as much as you can to get it off my plate. I need relief. But that, that relief needs to wait. You can’t get relief until they get up to speed. Until then, you’re going to have to invest extra time in them to set them up for that success.

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that we, we talk about, you know, I have this group of PESO model certified guides. It’s 10 agency owners that are in there that are going through the PESO model program so that they can then graduate and become a guide for the PESO model to other agency owners and businesses.

And one of the things that we talk about pretty consistently in that group is standard operating procedures, having your processes written down or video, whatever happens to be. And the biggest pushback I hear on that, which is understandable, is that I don’t have time because I’m running the business and I’m doing HR and, and, and, and, which is true, but to your point, without those SOPs, without the onboarding, without the time spent up front, you’re not going to get out of employees what you need, ever.

So, it does take time. But it’s one of the most important things that you can do to build into a company that’s willing to grow so that you can hire and onboard employees the correct way. And so, so we, what I’ve challenged this group to do is let’s take one thing at a time. So when you’re doing your work, do, Click zoom or click zoom or loom or whatever video platform you want and screen share and show the work as you’re doing it, right?

Like there are things that you can create tutorials for as you’re already because you’re already doing it. Just record yourself doing it. So create those tutorials and allow people that then you can share the videos and you can say, okay, as you’re doing this, this is how we do things. This is where you can find this.

This is where you can find that. Here’s the document for that. Like, and have it all so that they can easily find it and do it in a video tutorial, which is one of the easiest ways you can create your SOP. And that’s probably the best way to start, to build into something a library that you can then say to an employee as you’re onboarding them.

Great. What I’d like you to start with is this. And here’s everything you’re going to need to be able to get started. Go ahead and get started with that. Come to me with any questions. And then we’ll move on to the next. And that’s a really good way to onboard them in an efficient way that allows them to get up to speed really quickly so that they can relieve you from a lot of the stuff you’re doing.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I really want to underscore what you said about picking one thing at a time. It is, it is so much easier to make progress if you focus on one thing at a time. And it’s, it’s very, I think I’ve mentioned this before when I used to train new umpires for baseball, we would always tell them, pick one thing each game to work on, whether, and it can be something really simple.

It doesn’t have to be an elaborate detailed thing. I mean, it might be just make sure you take the mask off with your left hand, every single time, left hand, every single time. And until you nail that, don’t go working on the next thing. But if you do that and you focus on that one thing per game, you’ll make great progress very rapidly.

And your employees are the same way. If you give them, if you give them a focused thing to work on, they will improve. Or not, in which case that gives you feedback and information you need to know. As well, that they’re either not capable of that particular thing. And so you need to rethink what their assignments are, or again, perhaps they’re, they’re not a good fit overall.

But I think to me, the key thing is the, the very moment that you think to yourself, I don’t trust this person. I don’t have trust in this person or worse that once you say it, you’ve already been thinking it for a while. So as soon as you hear yourself telling that to someone else, whether that’s a friend, a spouse, a colleague, a coach, whatever, as soon as you verbalize it, you know, you have a serious problem and your, your focus needs to be, how do I address this?

Because if you don’t address it, if you’re not at least making progress on that trust issue, that relationship is doomed to failure. So don’t, don’t just brush it off and say, I can’t really trust them and, and then move on. You can’t. That needs to be, that needs to be a giant stop sign, a red light in front of you that says, you need to fix something right now.

Gini Dietrich: And, and you’re right, you like go through all the things. And it might very well be that the person is not the right fit, but go through all the things first.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and they might just not be a fit for the role that they’re currently sitting in. They might still be a good contributor to your team. You might just have have put them, you know, square peg in a round hole.

Yeah, and it might just be one aspect of what they do, right? You might be able to just shave it off and then they all of a sudden fit in in the right slot.

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think figuring out what we can do differently is one of the first steps and then move on to the next. And I’m just as guilty of it.

Chip Griffin: Oh, yeah. I mean, the thing is with this show, we talk from experience, right? And we’re pretty much just sharing the things we’ve screwed up over the years. So even though, even though you as listeners may feel like we’re beating up on you on a regular basis, we’re, we’re beating up on ourselves first for the mistakes we’ve made.

And now hoping that, that we can prevent some of you from making them

Gini Dietrich: from making the same ones

Chip Griffin: Either at all or whatever. If we made no mistakes, we’d have nothing to talk about here. That’s true. With that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of asking "So What?" and how it can lead to more effective decision-making for agency owners.