EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak to two visionary young practitioners about the role of Māori women in shaping our physical environments, and the issue of diversity within our professions.

GUESTS: Te Warihi Hetaraka, Elisapeta Heta, Haley Hooper

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Modern Māori Quartet (Māreikura): Mā te wāhine, mā te whenua, ka ora ai te tangata. Wāhine. Māreikura.

Te Warihi Hetaraka: At the root, at the core I think, of that understanding of it, is the understanding of mana wāhine. Mana wāhine under the korowai of Māreikura. Cause I think with colonisation, we've gone away from that understanding. And when our wāhine suffer, then we all suffer. and it's simply because we've gone away from that understanding, of the mana that our wāhine carry. We've gone completely away from that. And that's one of the tracks, that's one of the pathways that we need to establish first. Begin respecting the nurturers of our future. The first teachers, of our future, of our children. That has to be re-established, that understanding needs to be established, before we can even look at anything else. We come back again to the wahine. When the child is born, it's one of the most sacred moments of this planet. The birth of the child is the assurance of our future. Right here. And yet we've torn ourselves and our umbilical cord is sliced, is cut. The pito connects with Rangi and mother earth. So we've got to get back to that imagery. The moment you stop suckling from the breast of our mother, you suckle at the breast of Papatūānuku. So we've got to get back into that psychology.

JK v/o: That was tohunga whakairo Te Warihi Hetaraka, nō Ngāti Wai. As Māori, we hold clear beliefs about the status and sanctity of women.

Te Warihi’s whakaaro led me to reflect - how might our cultural attitudes towards women inform and direct the relationships that we have - with our environment? And what then, might be the role of wāhine Māori in shaping those environments?

Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 24.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we examine the role of Māori women in shaping our physical environments. We speak with two young wahine Māori practitioners - Elisapeta Heta, an architectural graduate from Ngāti Wai, and Haley Hooper, an urban designer from Ngāti Hau - about the thorny question of diversity within our professions. Both Elisapeta and Haley have featured on previous episodes on this season of Indigenous Urbanism, so do check those out.

My first guest for this episode is Elisapeta Heta. Elisapeta is previous Co-Chair of Architecture Women, and the current Ngā Aho representative to the NZIA board, a role that was established through the Kawenata. There are very few Māori women in architecture, and even fewer Māori women who are registered architects. I asked Elisapeta - Why are the numbers so low? Why is it important to increase diversity across our industry? and How do we get there?

Elisapeta Heta: From a representational point of view, which is something you touched on slightly, yeah, wow. I don't know that I have an easy answer around why there aren't many Māori in the profession. I can hazard a guess. And it's kind of partly based on, I suppose, anecdotal evidence, partly based on what I can see and observe myself, and partly through university as well, like the sorts of conversations I was having while I was a tuakana mentor at the University of Auckland. So, it seems like, and you can see this in some of the Pacific communities, the arts is, or hasn't necessarily historically been seen as a viable place to go. If you're going for higher education, you wanted to get thrown into law, and business, and medicine, and all the things that are seen as quite tangibly good careers. Architecture's a bit of an unknown. It's sort of seen as a little bit creative, some can see it as having links to engineering, but I think it's a little bit of an anomoly to our communities to some degree. But also I think it's something we just do inherently, all as humans, not just Māori and Pasifika, but all as humans, having housing housing is so fundamental to our ability to live. So, it baffles me as well. To some degree it's like, it's not necessarily seen as a career path, but it's so important to our sovereignty.

JK: So part of it might be just the way the profession is communicated, so that it can be understand and be seen as relevant, which it obviously is.

EH: Yes. And to not speak on behalf of anybody else but myself, it wasn't until I started university that I saw how much the profession looked nothing like me. And in no way represented my life, where I came from, and where I - quite naively at the time but probably ambitiously - thought I was heading. And that was always to be more helpful to my community. But, I suppose on first glance the profession has never presented itself as that. I realised it just took me having to carve that out for myself, so that's a little bit of blood, sweat and tears kind of thing. So we do have low numbers, and then the same, a lot of the similar issues around access, inclusivity, visibility, unconscious bias, all of those kinds of things, can be barriers towards long careers of Māori and Pasifika peoples in the industry. We already know when you look at stats around wāhine staying in the profession, for architecture we're really lucky, we have a good 50/50 kind of output of men and women, more or less. But we're still not necessarily retaining them in the ten years on position, and that's when the wage gap tends to appear. I haven't come across necessarily any good statistics that talk about the wage gap in relation to Māori within architecture. Partly because the numbers are probably so low that it would be fairly pointed I suppose, study, that would look at a very direct group of people. So you'd almost find out exactly what we were all earning, which may or may not be useful. It's looking at stats in different ways, and there's all sorts of ways you can slice it, but if you look at the general trajectory of average wage gaps or pay gaps amongst Māori and Pacific, and men and women, which are traditionally actually Pākehā men and Pākehā women in New Zealand as a whole, we already know that Māori women earn much less than Pākehā women, and Pasifika women earn less again. So, maybe we can extrapolate those numbers, I don't know.

JK: I think you touched on the fact that we maybe don't have a complete picture of the problem, but we do have a pretty reasonable idea. So, my question would be, what can we do about that, knowing how complex it is, but what are some ways we can move forward?

EH: Yeah. I think about that a lot. I think there a couple of potentially, deceptively - simple's not really fair - but, there are a couple of things we can do. As Māori, let's just think about Māori Pasifika, and I just talk about that I guess because for myself I am Māori and Pasifika. So, not trying to lump them all in as one, if anybody's listening to this and kind of going, what the? So, not lumping us into one, but this is my personal experience. I think we need to put our hands up more for being involved. What I mean by that, is getting on Boards, or speaking up in meetings, it can be that simple. Actually getting involved in your community. Kind of putting yourself out there to maybe be a judge on something, or to organise social events in your office, or speak on particular topics or issues. And I guess what I mean by that is, create visibility of yourself and of other Māori Pacific practitioners. And why that's important is that it helps maybe the practitioners that are standing beside them or around them to recognise the value of them, to recognise the value that Māori and Pacific points of views have, and also really critically important is for generations coming through. To actually be able to look to somebody and that is really crucial. And I suppose I have benefited from that through being involved in Architecture Women, where our entire sort of philosophy has been built on the idea of visibility and inclusivity. And the visibility part is literally just kind of social media, and newsletters and all those things that kind of go hey, these are people doing good things. But that could only really happen because those good people doing good things are putting their hands up to do stuff. Not saying be a chronic overachiever, cough cough, myself and yourself. But there are ways of speaking up slightly beyond what maybe comfortable, to just push a little bit. Because I think, in order for true change to happen we all need to pushing a little bit further. I think there needs to be a serious, very serious recognition of unconscious bias and what that does. Both from the wāhine tane perspective, so we get instances in which say, men don't realise that they have an unconscious bias to ask the male in the room a question over the female in the room. That's not necessarily something that they're doing out of malice, but it's actually something that they're doing unconsciously because it's a bias they have internally. That exists, that's one of those big barriers we see for women in a practice, that exists again as another layer for Māori Pacific. So everybody needs to get better at understanding what their unconscious biases are, pushing their practices - I think - to get more savvy around that. And I really think that people who are running businesses, who are directors, who are principals, actually need to just front up and be honest with themselves about what it is they are and are not doing as practices. And I'm seeing that with some practices, they are definitely making changes, and you can see the difference between those who are being truly honest and self-aware, and those who are not.

JK: Something I've been thinking about just personally, is that because the numbers of registered Māori architects are so low, and particularly Māori women, I'm like, I've always thought I didn't really have time to do this, there's so many things I need to do, and now I'm like, I don't think I can afford not to. And I'm kind of like, I mean, I think we find ways to be really active in these spaces without being registered architects, but I'm also aware that changing our profession, well, you do have to be in it. So, I don't know, do you have any thoughts on the registration thing?

EH: Yeah. The registration thing. Dun dun dun. At its base, getting registered is not, for me, about the 'congratulations you are an archi-ma-tect, you can architect things.' No. It's not necessarily about that sign off, so much as it is about me knowing for myself, that I have had the experience in architectural practice, to understand the breadth and depth needed to be registered. And what that means is, is that commitment from my employer, and the commitment from myself, to be on projects that allow me to see that whole process through. The reason why that's important, I think, from a Māori community point of view, from an, I suppose, having more architects who are Māori there, present, is that, you know what, it's a really important skillset, and it's a skillset our communities need. We're all, I've noticed a lot of us are all quite good at talking. Cough cough. Again. Me and you. But no, seriously, I don't know if it's just marae life training or something, but we're all quite used to having to talk things through, to narrate a story. I mean, that's the way we grew up. We grow up listening to stories, so we grow up thinking that the way we speak to each other is through stories. So, talking is like just Māori 101. Now, we can talk till we're blue in the face, but, the deeper you get into a project, which is what I'm finding as a, you know, I feel like a baby graduate architect, but never the less, deeper into a project I get, the more I realise that my talking up the front end just gets better, gets clearer. My understanding of how I can speak to our whānau, to our communities, to the Council, to the government, actually, about Māori ideas actually translating into real outcomes, gets better. Because I know that if I'm saying blah blah blah tukutuku panel needs to be cut, needs to show up in this precast panel, I actually now know what it takes to get it on site. Because I've said the words, then I've drawn the drawings, then I've detailed the drawings, then I've looked at how that details does or does not work. And then we've kind of maybe value managed some of that out. Or maybe we haven't. And then we're talking about how we get onsite, rada rada rada. It's literally for me, just seeing that process through, so that I know that when I come back to those stories again at the beginning, I'm not promising the sky and can't give it. And I also think we deserve much better design outcomes. And I think for a long time, due to all the things we know, aka colonisation, that we've just been in a survival mode, and survival mode doesn't look pretty, and I think we deserve better than that.

JK: And our communities deserve better.

EH: Yeah. Way better than that. Our marae can be amazing. Our papakāinga can be beautiful. We don't have to live in sub par housing. Architects are literally trained for that. We're trained for that design problem. We're trained for the pragmatics, for the logistical stuff. We're trained to be the creatives. We have the skillset. So, yeah, our communities need it.

JK: I've reached that point too, where I'm starting to see the boundaries of my current skillset, and my competencies, and I'm like, I just need to be better. My communities deserve better, I need to have that level of skill so that I can serve my communities better.

EH: All I would say is, our impatience, mine and yours, and many others, are legitimate. But also just there because we can see the urgency, is one thing. There is a bubble at the moment, it's this huge wave, that's coming from kind of all directions, and we're responding to it. And what I mean by that is, like, living in Auckland, we've got 19 iwi around the general Auckland region, and 13 in the Tāmaki Collective, who are all putting their foot down and saying, you know, public projects in the City are going to involve us. And so that means that the people on the other side of the table, which is the side of the table the architect sits on, need to know how to communicate that information. So there's another demand. The Council are putting it into their briefs, into their RFPs, into their things. The government are thinking about it. We have a kawenata. Pressures kind of coming from everywhere, and I think we're responding to that. And also, it's exciting. And also, we're ambitious. And we're ambitious because we've been given tools to be ambitious, and finally I think living through the potential that probably our parents had, but didn't necessarily have anybody there or any way, mechanisms in which to break those barriers down. So they just had us - the crazy ones.

JK: My mum, you know, she quit school when she was 15, cause she then had a baby. But when I was growing up, she always read to me when I was really young, she was always really big on education, and she always supported me on anything I wanted to pursue or was interested in.

EH: My mum is exactly the same. Mum did fifth form twice, and didn't quite make it to the end of that. And for many reasons in her life, left Aotearoa. So she hadn't technically finished high school. She went back to school as an adult, at 24. Because she really wanted to be a librarian. So she really saw the value in knowledge. But, Mum had a lot of barriers in life. Really, really big barriers. And education wasn't really seen as valuable in her house. She just needed to get a job. Just get a job and work. And that was fine, but Mum knew that for me, she read to me insistently, she made sure that, even if it meant, and often it literally meant working four to five jobs to make sure that there were opportunities to do, you know, singing lessons, and drama lessons. My brothers could get support with maths and english, or whatever. Education was important. And to the best of her damn ability, she fought really hard to make sure that I had what I needed. And she never had anybody fight for her like that. So, when I say I do these things for my whānau, I mean it very literally, and I know that for my nieces and nephews and hopefully one day for my own tamariki, every little interview, every little job we do, every person we've taught to say things correctly in te reo, makes a really big difference to their lives.

JK: I really loved that. Big mihi to our mums.

EH: Yeah. Massive mihi to our mums.

JK v/o: I also asked Haley Hooper, nō Ngāti Hau, for her whakaaro on this issue. Why does representation matter, from both a diversity and Treaty perspective?

Haley Hooper: I think it's a very important question to ask, and I think the fact that we don't have a lot of Māori women, or Māori in urban design, or even in architecture - like it's getting better but there's still limited numbers, we definitely have a need to grow our rangatahi into those spaces. So, I think, from my point of view when I think about being Māori in the design space, or myself in the design space, I think sometimes it has been an uncomfortable environment, and sometimes it's difficult, the processes that you go through, and it's an identity search as well, of like how are you fitting into these places, and how are these places representing themselves. And you're trying to establish what your ideas are in a kaupapa Māori way, sometimes, and in Pākehā way, and then in a development oriented way, and you're always negotiating the multiplicity of influences, and still trying to figure out where you stand in that, as a young designer. So I think as much as I love design, and the position of urban design, as a role, and as a Māori woman, I don't think it's always been a comfortable space to be in, specifically. And I'm not sure how I feel about that, or how to make that better. I think the thing is, it's all about education and awareness and things growing, and us getting stronger in that space as well. I think it's a very male-dominated industry as well all know, and it's male power heavy too. So, yes there are a lot more women in the industry, but as you get up to the top and the more important the projects seem to be, there is still a really strong lack of women in those places, and Māori women you very rarely see them, and when you do seem them you have huge admiration for them being there, and there are some very strong Māori women working in this space. But I'd love to see more coming through. There are certain norms and behaviours and cliques and types of things that exist in our industry that you're getting to know as a young designer, and then at the same time you're trying to figure out how you fit in to them, and they relate to things like, you know, what's the company's values, or what's the project's values, the priorities, the perceptions of people, the different hierarchies that you're working inside of, and those structures and establishments. And then I think, when you add the kaupapa Māori side to it, and then you try to figure out how that all works in together, you could say it's contrasting, and then sometimes it's in conflict with. And I think it's just how those things come together. Sometimes it works great, and other times it doesn't. And it's just a process of evolution, that you're trying to grow and understand yourself, and your identity in that space. Without conforming to the norm all the time. And then if you don't conform to the norm, where does that leave you, and what is your voice? And I think sometimes, on the inside, I'll be sitting in a room, and I could possibly be thinking a complete other thing to the way that it's been presented, and then it's like, what do you do then?

JK: Something I've really struggled with, was, I mean I think I have the strength in my convictions now, through experience, but I felt the same things quite strongly, you know, six years ago, ten years ago. But I didn't have the confidence to voice those, because I didn't have the experience. It just felt like an intuitive thing. And so you kind of go into these spaces, and you're like, that doesn't seem right, but I don't know enough to know that I'm correct in that. Which can be a really tricky place, because you feel like you're learning, but then somehow you still have to be, you have to be an advocate, and it's kind of a lot.

HH: Yes. Yeah, well I think you're really in the flux of learning, and you can sometimes be right in the front face of something, and you've got an idea, and you're like - should I say it? Do I say it? How do I say it? Is it appropriate? How's it going to recieved? Is this even the right space or place to say this thing? And how are these people going to take it on, and will it make a difference? But I think at the end of the day, if you've got an opinion that's strong and true you should always try to make it heard. I guess from my personal point of view, I'm probably still working on making that happen. But I hope that when it's very necessary that I do have the confidence to say it.

JK v/o: This episode of Indigenous Urbanism has been supported by The Diversity Agenda, an initiative aimed at driving change within New Zealand’s architecture and engineering industries. Dedicated to improving diversity and inclusion across the board, the Diversity Agenda’s overarching goal is getting 20 percent more women into engineering and architecture roles by 2021. The Diversity Agenda started as a collaboration between industry bodies Engineering New Zealand, the New Zealand Institute of Architects (NZIA) and the Association of Consulting Engineers (ACENZ) - and more than 75 firms have come on board since its launch. To find out more about the Diversity Agenda, please visit diversityagenda.org.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

That’s it. That’s a wrap. That was our last episode of the season. We’re on hiatus right now, but we look forward to you joining us for more great stories on Indigenous Urbanism in 2019.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Cheyenne Thomas, an architectural designer from Peguis First Nation, about her work with First Nations communities in Manitoba, and her role as a designer and advocate.

GUESTS: Cheyenne Thomas

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode twenty-three.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Cheyenne Thomas, an architectural designer from Peguis First Nation, about her work with First Nations communities in Manitoba, and her role as a designer and advocate.

Cheyenne Thomas: I am Anishanaabe, Ojibwe, that's my tribe. From Manitoba, Canada. I grew up in Winnipeg, my whole life, and my family is from Peguis First Nation and Saugeen First Nation, and I'm a designer in architecture, and I also do installations at a bigger scale with my father, who's also a designer. The focus is Indigenous design, and so that's who we try to work with.

JK: So we were really excited to meet you this time two years ago, when you and your dad came over, and you met all of us, this Ngā Aho crew, and we started this awesome journey together. But it was really exciting for me just to meet another young woman just smashing it. And then we went over to see you again last year. And so, I just wanted to maybe ask you a little bit about your practice and projects over back home, and what are some of things you're working on, and how have you kind of connected that with some of the exchange and experiences we've had?

CT: Okay, so, I did two buildings with my dad, we designed. They're 75,000 square foot buildings for two different First Nations in Manitoba. That was in the process when we met, two years ago. From that, we worked on the Assiniboine Park, revitalisation of the whole park, which is 1,000 acres in mass. They have a massive building, and a couple gardens. Part of it was to have an Indigenous garden, where they brought me and my dad on as lead designers. From when we did meet at the last hui, there was, it was more than just a conference, it was more people together, not so formal, where we could really connect without the labelling of architect, landscape architect, industrial designer. Where you actually have a collective of people just kind of supporting you, and from that there was different things we did during the conference, like sing songs, eat together, feast together, sleep together in the same marae. So for the Assiniboine Park I tried to architect the process, where we consulted with my community, our communities in Manitoba. So I got them to, I brought singers in, I brought food in as a component, to eat together, have discussions while you're nourishing your body. And those are all inspired by my experience at the last hui.

JK: I'm hearing that community-based process is really important, and the way we kind of bring in our own cultural lens and way of doing and being into that process with our communities. What was the process of engagement for that community project? How did that come about, actually?

CT: So that project, it actually, that park has been there for hundreds of years. And it's a European park. So they wanted to revitalise it, and they had the big building, designed by KPMP in Toronto, and they also had a couple gardens. The head of the park went to a community presentation, and this one Native girl said, I do not see myself in this park at all. So, she took, that was a pivotal moment for her, in the project. And for the Indigenous gardens, knew that was really important to have Indigenous designers. So, approached my dad and I, to start discussing and imagining this process of bringing our people into this consultation process.

JK: Now you talked about your dad a bit, and so it's pretty amazing the two of you work together quite closely on a lot of projects. Was your dad a big part of the reason why you got into architecture, or what kind of led you into architecture?

CT: I guess I was exposed to architecture, not just architecture, I was exposed to design, creativity, the whole creative process. Which at the time was not named the creative process. It was just exploring different ways of expressing building, and moving things around, creating or designing your own spaces to excite your childhood imagination, right? So I grew up with having that. Big pads of paper to draw on, this very loose way of moving around, and expressing yourself. So when I got older, went to University, all these courses I took. They weren't as exciting to me, they seemed very, not that there's anything wrong with those, I just grew up a totally different way, where I could freely express myself all the time. So, my dad exposed me to that, but I definitely chose architecture by myself.

JK: So you live in Winnipeg. How far is that from Peguis First Nation?

CT: Peguis First Nation is two hours away from Winnipeg. North.

JK: Have you been involved in much work in your community there?

CT: The first project outside of undergrad was the Multi-plex expansion on the existing hockey arena. Which we did the full construction drawings and everything for that, which took about a year. It still has yet to move forward, there was a change in Chiefs. So, politics.

JK: Yeah, we're familiar with that scenario. So is it quite rural there, on reservation?

CT: Yes, it is. We have a mall, but it's very small, it's basically a grocery store, bank, band office. And then we have a school, which is very nice. It was designed really nice, but not by native designers. Now we have a hockey rink, but we're one of the most, not progressive but biggest reserves in Manitoba. We have 10,000 people. So, I'm lucky to have that on my reserve. Other reserves don't have those things.

JK: Yeah, I think something that we experience here, there's a real tension between hau kāinga or home communities in rural areas, and the cities where a majority of our people are now living. So I guess, how have you kind of navigated that space, and how is your approach different when working on reserve as opposed to working in our urban environments.

CT: Okay, so, the one for Peguis, that project, I wouldn't say we successfully navigated that. Because, a lot of people, when you say architecture, they shut down. Because, for them, what does that mean. I am on the reserve, and never been exposed to anything like that. So we had a community presentations, and no-one would show up, really. No-one's excited about that. So, I think, that was the first project I was out of school. If I was to do that again, I would make it at schools, but not just present it on boards. I'd have interactive presentations, where you're one on one with kids, and you get them to see other than just that word. How these spaces are directly connected to how they, getting excited about things.

JK: It was great to hear you talking about rangatahi or young people, cause I think in the conventional architecture process, our young people are often kind of marginalised or not involved. And I think something that we're consistently finding with our community-based projects, is that you absolutely need to find new ways to make the overall engagement process accessible to young people, but also do specific things with them, to show that you're really, they're voice matters, what they think matters, and their experiences matter. And you don't have to do that from the role of up here, being the professional. You can actually be on the same level and have an exchange.

JK: In the last year I've had this idea, of how when you go into community you can't really get kids to get excited about architecture. They just shut down unless they've been exposed to it. I have this idea of this school, in the future, if I ever got to do this. This Indigenous design school that was not like the schools we have typically, the European schools, where you have the classroom, and you're very confined to each subject. But we have the schools where there's studios, and they're movable walls, and you can use the latest technology to interact with the wall with drawings, and it's like a big playground to learn. But how about we imagine these schools where it's just a big movable school, where we could adjust to what excites them, and we have the latest technology, projections, interactive walls where it's not just architecture, maybe it's architecture and pow-wow dancing, maybe it's singing, and poetry, and literature, where you get to explore things combined to what excites you. But you have these Indigenous teachers who are doing these really neat things that can like help you explore and expand your ideas as a young person. And it could be dance, it could be architecture and dance, it could be singing, and there's a performance stage where your community could come and watch. What is my child doing? And we have satellite schools to northern rural communities, where there's a transparency they can tune into, lectures, or studios in that home-based school. So they constantly have this access to our knowledge.

JK: And it keeps them in the community.

CT: But can stay in their community. And I have this idea of this big pow wow wall in the city, and it every week has a different pow wow. And, to be more specific, you walk into the school and it's this massive concrete wall or whatever, and you have a projection, cause in Manitoba every week we have pow wows in different communities, Saugeen, Peguis, Long Plains. And we have a live feed of the pow wow at a human scale, so when you walk in this school you immediately see your home, you have to acknowledge, okay, that's where I come from, don't forget that. You could tune in to an app and hear actually the announcer announce your family members at the pow wow, and when you miss home, you can come watch the pow wow. And it's constantly going through the summary. That's like a specific idea I have.

JK: That's a very clear vision. It's beautiful. That's how you work towards these things. Just got to have a clear vision.

JK: So the title of this podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, and the whakaaro behind that is, you know, our Indigenous communities are reaching this really critical point, politically, in the development of our disciplines, and we're increasingly able to actually have influence and lead the design of our physical environments. And I think they look very different to the colonial environments that we've become accustomed to. So, I just wanted to hear your whakaaro or your thoughts on that.

CT: I think, physically and also non physically, spiritually those aspects of our cultures and how deeply rooted they are in land, how deep we can connect to people with having those, people are starting to realise that, and missing that. So, through the cracks of society the lights kind of coming through. And, regardless, it will always be very strong. The more we move forward with this momentum. And physically, we're getting these opportunities, because I feel like it's meant to happen. For me, we get these projects, and now all of a sudden you're growing it even more, in like a more tangible way, I think, in Canada. For me and my dad. So I think it's very exciting.

JK: There's been a real shift in recent years, and I think there's a movement building, and we're really, well, we're really seeing that, both from the outside, but also together on an international level.

CT: Definitely.

JK: So we've been talking a lot about being Indigenous women, working in the area of design, and it can be not only very white- or Pākehā-dominated, but also very male-dominated. And just thinking about how we might support one another, navigating these spaces. Do you want to talk a bit more about that?

CT: Yeah. Well, for example, the way we've supported each other across the ocean, in Canada and here in New Zealand, with our design family, I'd call it. We constantly feed each other information about what's going on, on each side, and at a smaller scale, for women, I think it's very important that we do something that's more articulated, to help us kind of elevate our ideas, and different problems we face in the professional work environment. We have the same problems. We can relate. How do we help each other to trouble shoot, or find a way to move past those ideas, or those problems? And even the discussion is helpful. So you know you're not alone on these things.

JK: Cause I think it's so easy if you're facing barriers or people kind of takahi your mana, it's easy to just kind of internalise it and start questioning, thinking, oh am I not good enough, what am I doing wrong? But if you kind of share these experiences and share the load together, you start to realise, actually, this is a kind of a common thing, that we're all facing, and it gives you more confidence, both in terms of emotional support, but also quite practical support. So if we know what's going on, we can actually come in and support one another, make opportunities available, and start to kind of break through some of those barriers.

CT: Yeah. Exactly what you just said. That's what I feel we need to do. Also, if we were to exchange, you come to Canada, I bring people from Canada to here, it starts this momentum where the conversation elevates above that, and we think at a bigger scale, how can we bring women across Canada and here, and let them know that, yeah, you're not the only ones going through these issues, let's all come together, maybe we hold a hui or conference, and really dwell on how we can support each other in a bigger scale.

JK: And something I've found, not just here but internationally, is that even in the Indigenous design space, a lot of our leadership is men. And there's not, there's a few, but there's not many women who are up in that next generation above us. But there's a lot in our generation coming through. And so as we're all rising together, how do we support one another and maintain positions of leadership? Because I think there is a real problem with women leaving the profession as well.

CT: Yeah, maybe more specifically, cause we have access to all this technology, video calling, database, websites, group internet chats where you can constantly have a conversation going. Maybe that in a more specific way could be something we start at. And then we have maybe a monthly meeting to start to figure out what this all means.

JK: And even just knowing that we're there. Cause I think one of the problems with, I guess when you look at the top of professions and they're all white men usually, there's like that implicit bias thing, right, where people identify people that are like them for progression, and I think, without going to affirmative action on it, I think, people might say, oh, we didn't invite any Indigenous women because we don't know any. And it's like, well, we're here. It's not too hard to find us.

CT: Exactly! So, also expanding our networks, so, say, someone on the west side of Canada, and east side, we can help each other with our resources, on either side.

JK: That's us then. Any concluding thoughts?

CT: No I think it's a good start.

JK: Keep this conversation going. Kia ora.

JK v/o: This episode was recorded on location at Nā Te Kore, the second international indigenous designers hui hosted by Ngā Aho in March 2018.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we examine the role of Māori women in shaping our physical environments, and speak with two young wahine Māori practitioners about the issue of diversity within our professions.

Haley Hooper: I think it's a very male-dominated industry as we all know, and it's male power heavy too. So, yes there are a lot more women in the industry, but as you get up to the top and the more important the projects seem to be, there is still a really strong lack of women in those places, and Māori women you very rarely see them, and when you do seem them you have huge admiration for them being there and there are some very strong Māori women working in this space. But I'd love to see more coming through.

Elisapeta Heta: I think there needs to be a serious, very serious recognition of unconscious bias and what that does. That exists, that's one of those big barriers we see for women in a practice, that exists again as another layer for Māori Pacific. And I'm seeing that with some practices, they are definitely making changes, and you can see the difference between those who are being truly honest and self-aware, and those who are not.

EPISODE SUMMARY: In part two of our story on the Ōtautahi rebuild, we look at the work of Ngāi Tahu and Regenerate Christchurch to develop alternative uses for the residential red zone area to the east of the City, including the re-establishment of biodiversity and food gathering areas.

GUESTS: Teoti Jardine, Hugh Nicholson, Debbie Tikao, Te Marino Lenihan, Evan Smith

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: On September 4th 2010, February 22nd 2011, and many occasions afterwards, major earthquakes shook the city of Christchurch, allowing the old wetlands to temporarily re-establish themselves, and leaving swathes of land, especially to the east of the city, uninhabitable.

After its century-old Treaty of Waitangi claim was settled in 1999, Ngāi Tahu made quick work of restoring its political, cultural, and economic influence. However, Christchurch remained visually and culturally dominated by English aesthetics and values.

What’s happening in Christchurch today may be a world first situation, and in the wake of a devastating natural disaster, the local indigenous people are involved in the redesign of a city from the highest governance level right through to the actual physical reconstruction.

Teoti Jardine: The empty places behind you, and the empty places where we were, they were filled with street after street of empty houses. The people had gone, their houses were there waiting to be demolished. And it was coming up to our Matariki celebration, that was over in our other little area which was a Council playground. Where for the first time after the earthquakes, people were coming to plant again, and to reconnect with the land. So, now, I'll shut up and tell you.

It's called Rezoned.

Empty breezes wander streets
Where the windows of silent houses
Gaze without any expectations
There was no time for farewells
Only the hurried leavings
Come quickly, don't turn back
Nothing is left here now
Yet, around abandoned playgrounds
Children's laughter lingers
Making the invitation, to come
Grow, plant, forage
Among the stories of those who stayed
Singing, swimming, roosting
Through sunshine, rains and mist
Filling the breezes with hope

Kia ora koutou.

JK v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode twenty-two.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, part two of our story on the Ōtautahi rebuild, we look at the work of Ngāi Tahu and Regenerate Christchurch to develop alternative uses for the residential red zone area to the east of the City, including the re-establishment of biodiversity and food gathering areas.

TJ: Tēnā koutou katoa, Ko Teoti Jardine ahau, Ko Waitahi, ko Kati Mamoe, ko Kai Tahu oku iwi.

JK v/o: That was Teoti Jardine. Teoti is a poet from Ōtautahi and a kaumātua for the Avon-Ōtākaro network.

TJ: It wasn’t long, that in my connection with the red zone, that I realised I'm walking through the memories and the stories of my Waitaha, Kati Mamoe, Kai Tahu tūpuna. Who came here for hundreds of years gathering food, and gathering resources and teaching their children how to do this mahi. And, when they did this, they came and they greeted the rivers, they greeted the land, and the land nourished them, and their greetings nourished the land. And for me, those memories, those stories of my tūpuna, are in this land. And whatever happens to the red zone, those memories and those stories need to be honoured in whatever way it's possible. We've just seen how some of these stories can be honoured in the city. The red zone is a clean slate. No-one knows quite what to do with it. But for me, it's a place that holds those memories from hundreds of years ago, and those stories from hundreds of years ago. And they feel, now with my connection to the red zone, they feel like they are my memories now. And they are my stories. And whatever happens in the red zone, I would like to see some honouring of what those stories are. My tūpuna, my ancestors, we were the first ones to be red zoned. When the settlers came we had to move, and now they came and they built in the place where, our old people said why are they building here? This was our food basket. But, oh no, we'll drain it and build houses. Well, you can see what happened. And, for me, Ruaumoko has returned the land to us, and given us the opportunity to allow the land to return to its original purpose, which was a mahika kai, a place where we gathered food. We’ve seen downtown how those reflections of our tūpuna are happening now. They weren't there before the earthquake. So, honestly, the earthquake has given us this opportunity to place our mark on the land once more, and tell the land's stories through it. There has been some kōrero around, can we designate this red zoned land to be its own personality? And under the kaitiaki, under the guardianship of Ngāi Tūāhuriri, so that’s still something that’s in the wind. This is an opportunity that very few people get. And that's thanks to Ruaumoko. I know a lot of damage was done, and a lot of heartache. But for me, he's been giving us this opportunity, and we need to take best advantage of that as we possibly can.

Hugh Nicholson: Residential areas, and of course folk planted fruit trees in the sections. And nobody told the fruit trees that there'd been earthquakes, and so the trees continued to fruit, even after the sections had been abandoned. So community groups have come around and taken the fruit from those trees, and redistributed them to social organisations that could use them. In the City we saw some great examples of artworks, physical manifestations and here we’re trying to incorporate underlying design principles that gives us strategic direction for the whole project. My name is Hugh Nicholson, I’m a Pākehā and I live over in the base of the hills here. I work for an organisation called Regenerate Christchurch, which is owned half by the government, or the Crown, and half by the local Council. We're a planning agency, so our job is to plan for the future of regeneration Christchurch.

JK v/o: Regenerate Christchurch was established in 2016 to lead the regeneration of Christchurch, and have been working closely with Ngāi Tahu on various projects, including the re-establishment of māra kai in the red zone.

HN: One of the specific tasks we’ve got is planning for the future of the red zone, that we're walking amongst. There's lots I could talk to you about, but I thought what I'd talk to you a little bit about is how we're going about it. So I'm a designer, I originally trained as a landscape architect, and I became an urban designer, and I've kind of worked in all sorts of places. And look, for years, you know, we've grappled with the Treaty of Waitangi, and how do we collaborate, how do we partner with local iwi and design in partnership? To be honest, you know, I've been through all sorts, we've tried all sorts of stuff, and I don't mean to run it down, but you know, we sent plans off, we consulted, and sometimes we get comments back and sometimes the council or whoever makes changes, and sometimes they don't, and to me it never felt like a, felt like a partnership really. I don't know how to describe it. What we've done, what we've managed to do, I think, is to setup a relationship with Ngāi Tūāhuriri and the Matapopore Trust. Whom you've heard a lot from. So their designers, we setup a design team for the red zone, or you know, I set it up, and their designers are working, we're working at the same table, with pens. Well, not with pencils and pens, but with computers. But you know what I mean - metaphorically we're drawing plans together, we're making the plans as we go. We're having the discussions about values, and about how things should be. And to me that's the first time it's felt like a genuine partnership, in terms of design. That actually, you know, we're speaking the same language, we're using the same tools, and we're writing things down. So that's been a real, it's an eye opener for me. For that happen, and I think it's, there are a number of things which are really important. One of which is the Matapopore Trust. Look, all of these things are about having relationships with the right people. And you know, and I think Te Maire alluded to some fairly, some disastrous attempts, in the early days after the earthquakes, to start designing things which went wrong, by talking to the wrong people. Matapopore Trust is set up by the rūnanga, you know, it's established, and it has their mandate and their confidence to actually make some decisions, to design on their behalf. And that's essential. We're not just dealing with any Māori designer, we're sitting design with the people whom the rūnanga has said, your responsibility is to design on our behalf. So that relationship is really important, and that's something we have to keep checking back. And I guess, you know, for us it’s been a great partnership. I joke in terms of the design that my plans are really just an excuse to sort out three important things - funding, ownership, and governance. They are the things. I have a project where I have no funding, I don't know who owns it, and I have no agreed governance. So that's really the important questions that are on the table about this red zone. That's what's going on behind the scenes, as the various players are sorting those things out. And the plans are something that give them a reason to sort them out, to figure out what’s going on. We’ve tried to setup kind of a philosophy of mahinga kai, and I realise I'm amongst a group of people who know much more about this than I do, largely, my iwi colleagues. But what we realised is that Pākehā culture, we have a kind of long history of setting up National parks and things. You know, where you have a bit of land, and you protect it. You make it green, and you kind of keep people out. It's protected, and people sort of, they work around it, and they go and visit it sometimes, and enjoy it. What we don't do very well, is we don't have a kind of philosophy that includes people in the space, that actually, where people are part of the whole kind of equation. And we felt that mahinga kai, in the broader sense, so including food gathering, but also harvesting materials for carving or for weaving, but even in a broader sense, sustaining the environment so that it can do this, and that people can live in it. So that it becomes a kind of a sustainable system. We felt that’s something that the whole of Christchurch could benefit from.

Debbie Tikao: Real quickly jump in.

JK v/o: That’s Debbie Tikao, General Manager of Matapopore Trust.

DT: When we developed the framework, the mahinga kai framework, I firstly just want to say that, if we had come up with the request to look at an area of land as vast as this, and basically apply an Indigenous framework to how we address it, it would have been quite unheard of a few years ago. But because we've been working with the likes of Hugh over many years, and we've built up a lot of trust and a lot of respect, and these guys have built up a lot of understanding about what these values mean. So we were able to, we had some good ears, and understanding to begin with, which was really fantastic. So the idea behind adopting an Indigenous values based framework, is that within an area of land like this, there are many things to consider. You know, you've got the social connection, economic, you've got the environmental, you've got the concept of kaitiakitanga. How are we going to actually create an ethic where people are themselves the custodians. So that brings in the concept of education, mātauranga. So an Indigenous framework allowed us as design team to consider all these things, and the interplay between them allowed us to think about things like whanaungatanga, how we actually engage socially. How do we create spaces that bring people together, collectively. So that they can talk, and be, and be whānau. Be community. And inspire community, grow the community. And really importantly, the concept of economic growth. So this area did have an aspiration. The community do have an aspiration. They actually do want to build themselves economically. The tribe has the aspiration, the rūnanga has the aspiration, to develop economically. So you know, we're thinking about all of these things and the interrelationship between all of it. So by applying that Indigenous framework of māhinga kai, you know, was really quite significant, and it makes sense, and we were then allowed to then spin off into those different actual areas, with the knowledge that everything has been thought of, and united through this concept. And the importance of education. So, you know, Hugh's talking about being able to use those resources. That's all very well and good, but to be able to use those resources, you need to understand those resources, you need to understand those cycles, you need to understand how to read the environment, you need to understand everything there is to know. So, you know, wrapping in the concept of mātauranga, the concept of education, into the way that we design environments is critical. Because, you know, actually, if our plan work, people are starting to learn and know, and they will know, by the time actually we've managed to clean up the river and creates those forests, so that people can actually harvest those resources in a way that’s respectful of the land.

JK v/o: Here’s Te Marino Lenihan explaining where exactly we were, and talking about the significance of community-led mahinga kai projects.

Te Marino Lenihan: Just over the back beyond the buses is the Travis Wetland, a big wetland system. Just up over there. And so connecting the river to the wetland, there's a waterway behind these cabbage trees on either side. In terms of, I was talking on the bus about the salt water wedge. When the tide comes in, and the salt water pushes up the river, and at the top of the tide is the salt water wedge, which is where some of our fish species, that's where they spawn and they breed. The salt water wedge is about this area of the river. And so, it's an important spawning ground for native fish. So, that's some context around where we are. And what we’ve done together, it wasn’t so many years ago that this was all grass. And so in a few years, our community leaders have bought the community back into the area they've been turfed out of, and we've planted this up, and in just bringing people together with their shovels and I know when Debbie came down with her family they were the first through the door and away, with the babies. They're just planting trees together, and having something to work together, listening to some music together, and just feed that idea of growing life around us that can then feed us. And it was really strategic in a way, is to say, get in there, bring the people back, and start socialising this idea of food, and environments that feed us, and hopefully that will filter itself up to the decision makers, and then it will embed itself into our future.

Evan Smith: I’d just like to perhaps put a few challenges out there, from our experiences over the last few years.

JK v/o: That was Evan Smith, a trustee for, and leading member of, the Avon-Ōtākaro network. Evan is a local resident who has dedicated himself to greening and beautifying the red zone and river of the lower Avon that was so badly affected by the earthquakes.

ES: Kia ora koutou, my name’s Evan, I’m Pākehā, a descendent from one of the original colonialists in the first four ships, so called, that came into Lyttelton Harbour almost 200 years ago. I used to live up the road, couple of suburbs up there, also decanted like this, it was red zoned. It was a really horrific time during the earthquakes, but it was also the best of times, in some ways, because it brought communities together, and we had an enormous amount of community cohesion immediately after the earthquakes, response to the earthquakes. That was tangata whenua and Pākehā together, responding. Then we ended up in a position where we were told we were redzoned. I was one of 6,000 households in this corridor that was told we had to move. And there was another 3,000 households around the rest of the North Canterbury area that were in the same position. And that was horrendous to deal with. It also was an opportunity, so it also had some positive things. I was one of the community leaders that emerged from the recovery process. The point of red zoning stepped out of the recovery phase, all the arguments within insurance companies, and started to look at what the future might look like here, from the point of view of people who used to live here. You would have heard today that it was an organisation called CERA for the first three or four years. Five years, wasn't it? Some of their functions for transferred to other organisations, including Regenerate Christchurch. For most of those initial five years, wider communities in Christchurch felt locked out of their own recovery, of their own regeneration. So we worked hard with the authorities, with the politicians, to ensure the voices from the communities, the wider communities, are starting to be heard now, and have some influence in what happens. And for the first time in Regenerate Christchurch we have an organisation, and agency, that is listening, and is consulting and engaging with communities, in the wider sense. And so I just want to be careful that you don't end up being iwi and agencies together, and community gets locked out again. And that includes mataawaka as well. It's important that all the communities are considered in the whole conversation, whilst not devaluing the value of the iwi connection. The other one, I think, is around capacity. Every community organisation and their dog wants to have a relationship with mana whenua, and that's incredibly difficult. There's got to be better ways of making that happen better, and if it needs resourcing, what we keep on telling all of those big organisations that we get funding from, is that they've got to fund that kind of advice and support and liaison. And that’s being heard now I think. This project is four or five years old. It's called the māhinga kai exemplar. It was a piece of Council land we could work on, because it wasn't restricted by the restrictions on the Crown land, where you can't plant or anything else at the moment. So this is what's grown in the last five years, there's over 7,000 plants in here and there's a few other thousand over this side as well. This is designed as an educational resource, with what Debbie was saying before, in a week's time over the road there, the first of 7 primary school classes will be coming down to study the īnanga, and there's īnanga spawning. And that's been woven into the stories of māhinga kai, and to me that's what the real value of these places, it's that young people, both Pākehā and tangata whenua, are beginning to learn the stories of the land again and understand the meaning behind that.

JK v/o: You can find out more about Regenerate Christchurch at regeneratechristchurch.nz.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Cheyenne Thomas, an architectural designer from Peguis First Nation, about her work with First Nations communities in Manitoba, and her role as a designer and advocate.

Cheyenne Thomas: I think physically and also non physically, spiritually those aspects of our cultures and how deeply rooted they are in the land, and how deep we can connect to people. People are starting to realise that. So, through the cracks of society the light's kind of coming through. And physically, we're getting these opportunities, and now all of a sudden, you're growing it even more, in a more tangible way.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we travel to Ōtautahi Christchurch to see how Ngāi Tahu and Ngāi Tūāhuriri are working with the City, designers and developers to reveal and rebuild a world leading, authentic, post-colonial city of the future.

GUESTS: Joseph Hullen, Te Marino Lenihan, Piri Cowie, Jo Petrie, Debbie Tikao, Te Aritaua Prendergast

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: Ru ana te whenua - the earth starts to tremble. Rūaumoko must be stirring. At the time that the sky father Ranginui was separated from the earth mother Papatūānuku, they had an unborn child, Rūaumoko, who was still inside his mother’s womb. Today he remains there, sometimes moving and turning. And when he moves, the earth shakes.

The earthquakes that shook Christchurch in 2010 and 2011 were a traumatic series of events causing death and extreme adversity. But out of the wreck of what was Christchurch, a new city is being planned, and local iwi Ngāi Tahu have had a prominent role in the process. It has been seen as a chance to build, more or less from scratch, a post-colonial city, inclusive of everyone; and with a strong recognition of the mana whenua of local hapū, Ngāi Tūāhuriri.

Joseph Hullen: Kia ora everybody. We’ve stopped here for a couple of reasons. From my perspective, across the river is the Pita Te Hori centre. Pita Te Hori was the first Ūpoko Rūnanga of Ngāi Tūāhuriri. The Pita Te Hori Centre is a Ngai Tahu properties development.

JK v/o: That was Joseph Hullen. Joseph Hullen works for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu, is involved in a range of environmental and ecological projects, and is a Trustee for Matapopore Trust. And today, Joseph was our tour guide on a walking tour around Christchurch City. As part of our tour, we paused at the terraces on the banks of the Avon Ōtākaro river, opposite the Pita Te Hori centre.

JH: I was talking a little bit earlier about stormwater treatment, and flowing into the river. So during the application for consents and stuff, in consultation with Ngāi Tūāhuriri, Ngāi Tahu properties understood that they needed to treat all of their stormwater onsite, before it goes into the plumbed stormwater network, and flows into the river. So it was a case of Ngāi Tūāhuriri and Ngāi Tahu walking the walk, and talking the talk. So, when the rōpū kaitiaki, when Ngāi Tūāhuriri representatives sit in on consent applications, give consultation to developments, one of the things we ask for is - wherever possible - stormwater is treated onsite, and then, in it's own way, that benefits the resource, the awa, improved water quality means improved values, and improved mahinga kai. The other part of it, we’re trying to normalise that whole kaitiakitanga aspect when it comes to development in the CBD. And so we’re trying to normalise that whole, be responsible for your own stuff onsite, and normalising that, in the same way we’re trying to normalise the language.

Te Marino Lenihan: You’re sitting on the terraces and part of the vision is greater engagement between people and our river.

That was Te Marino Lenihan, a Ngāi Tūāhuriri cultural landscape consultant who has worked extensively for his hapū and iwi in Ōtautahi.

TML: Part of the vision is to host things on that side of the river, have people over here enjoying the sunshine, the seating arrangement. And so, further to what I was saying before about language and the use of language, we've put a little message over there into the steps. It's taken from a Māori land court session in 1879, when Wiremu Te Uki, I think my great-great grandfather's brother, older brother, presented evidence, and we started to claim all our mahinga kai sites in the city. We we weren't so successful. But what he said was, "the name of this river is Ōtākaro," and it says "nōku te awa" - "it belongs to me." What we haven't said here is, the next thing he said was, "nō ōku tūpuna." So basically saying, "this is our spot." And this is the reason why we get it, it's because we get our fish out of here. Unfortunately they said, sorry Māori mā, it's already been sold. So we just remind ourselves of those stories by putting those messages back into the landscape.

Piri Cowie: Tēnā koutou, I just thought I might tautoko the kōrero.

JK v/o: That was Ngai Tahu artist Piri Cowie. Piri has been involved in bringing Ngāi Tahu narratives to life visually in many of the projects in post-earthquake Christchurch.

PC: One of our other projects that we worked on, in the Pita Te Kori Centre, which you can see across there, is a sculpture called Kirihao. Hao is a Ngāi Tahu word for eel. Kiri is your skin. But it talks about, somebody who's thick-skinned or tenacious, and who's resilient. The name of the sculpture if you see through there is called Kirihao, resilience. But it's a reminder of the connection to our awa here, to our tuna, to mahinga kai, but also just for us, that we belong here, and to be an tenacious as our tuna.

JK v/o: The walking tour that we went on takes participants on a journey through a number of locations throughout Christchurch City. This is a guided tour, led by Matapopore Trust, of everything from integrated artworks brought to life by Ngāi Tūāhuriri and Ngāi Tahu artists, to the influence on Ngāi Tūāhuriri on urban design.

Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode Twenty-One.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we travel to Ōtautahi Christchurch to see how Ngāi Tahu and Ngāi Tūāhuriri are working with the City, designers and developers to reveal and rebuild a world leading, authentic, post-colonial city of the future.

Now, let’s continue on with our tour. The next stop: Te Omeka Justice and Emergency Services Precinct.

TML: We’re just going to do a leg that way for a block to the Justice Precinct, to see a bit of stunning work from Lonnie Hutchinson and other beautiful artists, and then back around that side, back to where we started from.

JK v/o: That was Te Marino Lenihan again.

Jo Petrie: Kia ora koutou, tuatahi ki te whānau o Ngāi Tūāhuriri. He hoaka me he mahi kaihoaka he mahi kaitakata. Tēnā koutou. Ko Jo ahau. Ko Te Rarawa te iwi, ko Ngāi Tahu te iwi āku tamariki. Tēnā koutou.

JK v/o: That was Jo Petrie. Jo is a communications specialist, and a consultant on the Justice and Emergency Services Precinct project.

JP: Kia ora everyone, I’m Jo, it's an honour and a privilege to do work for my friends at Ngāi Tūāhuriri. It's been a really good project, the Justice precinct. So this is one of the main artworks, there's about eight throughout the precinct, some are on the inside. This one was quite a hard sell out of all of them, there were quite a lot of opportunities. This one was one of the bigger ones. So it represents a korowai, a cloak, made out of metal feathers. The feathers have been anodised, each one individually in a drum, and suspended and sprayed. So there's a functional purpose as well, and that is to let the air circulate into the carpark behind it. It was sort of a difficult thing to get just the right amount of air flowing through. So that's the functional purpose as well. Down on the ground as a whāriki. So as this grows, the garden here will form those tāniko patterns. To complement the kākahu up top. And the last sort of stage of it, that will hopefully happen quite soon, is lighting. It will be lit at night. So there was a test done recently, and it's quite striking, like, probably more so at night, when it's lit, and if it's lit well, which it will be. So, yeah, this is piece number one. This project started probably about six years ago, and Te Marino can tell us more about that, so the opportunity was obviously created by the earthquake, and then there were some smart people, Tasha and Te Marino, who opened the door. I don't know what they did, but by the time the rest of us got in there, the door was well and truly open. So, the mission then, was there were a lot of possible places throughout the precinct that we could integrate art. So the mission really then was how much could we do, with the restraints that we had. So the restraints being budget, and team. There was two artists, Tūī, the arts advisor, and myself. So, we just went to work to try to maximise as much as we could get in, within those constraints.

JH: The Justice precinct was probably the worst one for us to work on because we came into the project so late. So the design had already started before mana whenua engagement.

JK v/o: That’s Joseph Hullen again.

JH: So as Jo said it was a hard sell getting some of our artworks embedded within the Justice Precinct itself. The concept of the kākahu, is the laying down of the kākahu over somebody to come under the authority of the owner. So, that whole thing about rangatiratanga, and also about the support of the iwi, or about the support of the law. So as you can see, I mean it's a stunning example, it was a case where the design once it had been agreed to, broke down the barriers about consultation with mana whenua - there can be some great outcomes out of it. This was one of them. And the tāniko patterns, the wefts and the feathers, combine stunningly in more than just the horizontal plane, or the vertical plane, but the the horizontal and around the corner. So, you know, a three dimensional artwork.

JK v/o: Matapopore Trust - our hosts for the walking tour - emerged during the Christchurch rebuild process as a vehicle to ensure Ngāi Tūāhuriri and Ngāi Tahu values, aspirations and narratives were appropriately realised within the recovery. We spoke with Debbie Tīkao, a landscape architect of Cherokee and Pākehā descent, and the General Manager of Matapopore Trust.

Debbie Tikao: Kia ora koutou, ko Debbie Tikao toku ingoa, I’m the General Manager of Matapopore Charitable Trust. I’m also a landscape architect, and mother of two beautiful little girls.

JK v/o: The reason it’s a bit noisy is because I spoke with Debbie during the break at the Urbanism NZ conference in Wellington, where Debbie was one of the presenters.

JK: Now the reason I’ve asked to speak with you today is because of the really exciting and visionary work you're doing with Matapopore Trust in Ōtautahi. And I'm wondering if you could tell me a little about what is Matapopore Trust, how did it come about, why does it exist?

DT: Okay, Ngai Tahu were identified a strategic partner within recovery, along with the Crown and Council, and also ECAN at that time. And they developed a list of objectives that they wanted to see within the future rebuild. One of those objectives really related to the building of identity for Ngāi Tahu and Ngāi Tūāhuriri. So, in order to do that, Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu went to Ngāi Tūāhuriri, who hold mana whenua over the central city, and asked for them to actually lead that process. And they developed, initially a steering group, Matapopore. They then set Matapopore, the steering group, up as actually a charitable trust. And we had the job of ensuring that that identity was realised in the city.

JK: Now, I was recently in Christchurch and I went on a wonderful tour through some of the projects you've been involved with, and particularly Te Omeka and Tākaro-ā-Poi. And I was just wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about those two projects.

DT: Probably the first point I want to make, is that all the projects we're involved in are all connected through narrative. So there's an overriding story that we're weaving throughout the city. So each project relates to the other projects.

JK: So none are in isolation.

DT: None are in isolation. And it's not really until you actually go on one of those tours that you, or go for a walk around, that you really experience and get a sense of what it is that we're doing. If you look at any one element, or any one piece, or any one project, it's beautiful and it's fantastic, but it's not until you get a sense of them all together as a collective, that you realise there's something quite incredible that's happening here. You know, and it all relates back to storytelling.

So Tākaro-ā-Poi is at the base of that narrative. We're telling two stories - one, based on mahinga kai and the other, really about our migration stories. So, we had an artist, Piri Cowie, involved in that project and she did a beautiful job, she worked on a number of projects. With Tākaro-ā-Poi, by embedding our stories into that playground through predominantly art elements, we're trying to, I suppose, educate our kids. And so our kids have got that strong connection to, or get to learn more about their stories, their migration stories, and also have that stronger connection to the natural environment, and familiarise themselves with concepts such as mahinga kai.

JK: And engage in a way that's meaningful and natural to them.

DT: And through play. So, you know. So there's a story arc, and within that story arc there's a lot of images that they'll be familiar with. A lot of images about, I suppose, species, some from Pacific islands, that connect Aotearoa to the Pacific islands. There are images of waka. There's also images of European vessels. So, it's all of our migration stories. And, there's also waiata. So the kids can actually, you know, there are songs that they can sing, that they'll be familiar with. It's also very much about the language. You know, having a language - te reo Māori - within our play environments, within the urban environment, by making that more accessible, it's really so that our kids, when they're out there playing, potentially are going to feel more comfortable using and speaking te reo. Cause often, they only really speak it on the marae, or at school where they're learning it. So, it's really encouraging them to speak it, when they see it out there, to know that they can speak it out there too.

JK v/o: We asked Debbie about Te Omeka Justice and Emergency Services Precinct.

DT: That project, we actually came into that project quite late. It was interesting listening to Rebecca Kiddle, she called Lonnie Hutchinson's beautiful kākahu, what did she call it? Brown -

JK: The sexy brown.

DT: Sexy brown.

JK: I saw that two of Lonnie's projects, and I was like, oh my god.

DT: Yeah yeah yeah. I don't think Lonnie's going to mind her work being called sexy brown. But, I don't know that I totally actually agreed with what she was saying, because we are storytellers, and a lot of the way that we tell stories is in fact through the visual arts. And even though we weren't involved in that project from the conception, and we weren't able to embed those core values into the, I suppose into the guts and the bones of that building, we were able to still provide that narrative on the outside. And that narrative within that, within those stories, there's layers and layers and layers of meaning. You know, so weren't not, you know, it's not just a sexy brown, it's actually also very much educational, it's also layers and layers of knowledge.

JK: And these narratives, as you said, are threaded throughout the city, so it's a part of the urban fabric. So it's not confined to a single site. So even if in some places it just seems like a surface treatment, it doesn’t stand there along, it’s threaded through.

DT: Yep that’s right.

JK: Now I heard a little bit today about the design principles that have been developed, and I thought that was really exciting because I've had a fair bit to do with Te Aranga. And it's quite cool because a lot of the outcome areas are very similar, but it's coming from absolutely that mana whenua perspective and basis, and what's right for the people there. So I'm just wondering if you could tell me a little bit about how they emerged and developed and that process.

DT: They came out of the, I suppose the grand narrative. I suppose one of the very first exercises was to develop the stories that we were going to thread through the city. Once we had those stories from those, we could see that there were a number of main, I suppose kaupapa, that would, that we really needed to explore some more. And so they became the basis of the urban design guidelines. So, we identified five kaupapa. We carried on with the storytelling way to communicate and describe and explain what those kaupapa meant. Because, we want these guidelines to be accessible to everybody, and sometimes we are talking about reasonably complex concepts. So, I suppose our approach to these five kaupapa was more that we would take people on a journey, explain them in a way, and provide a context so they could be grasped more easily, and therefore be more effective. We also provided examples of the types of traditions and concepts that may relate to particular kaupapa, plus also we gave examples of some types of outcomes might be. So they were a starting point for a conversation, for a creative process.

JK: I was there in 2012 when Craig held that symposium, Ōtautahi Revealed, and it was, you know, not too far after the earthquake, and there was all these aspirations of what might be possible. So I guess having come from that point to now, I'm just wondering how you feel about where things are, and the things that have happened since that time.

DT: Well it's been a ride. It's been definitely a journey, a lot of lessons have been learnt along the way. It wasn’t straightforward. From that point, to where we are now, where we actually are delivering on those objectives, you know that path has been an awful lot of work, that's occurred to get to this point. And it hasn't, we didn't have all the answers at the beginning. You know, we had to work through a number of different processes. We tried different things. We worked out that providing cultural advice, pretty much got us nothing. Because what was happening is that, you know, you were really leaving, you were providing information, you were handing over cultural narratives to Pākehā organisations to interpret, and that wasn't getting the results that we wanted to see. It was certainly, you would certainly go part way. What we realised is that we needed to be sitting at the table, working with them in a design capacity. The interpretation of narratives needs to be coming from ourselves. You know, you can't hand that over to others to do. You can work with them, you know, to develop some of those outcomes, but that interpretation needs to really come from ourselves. And we developed a process, and part of that process, particularly for the larger projects, included, I suppose, the preparation or writing of a cultural design strategy, that allowed us to consider what that narrative was, or what element of that narrative we were wanting to really explore through design in relation to the kaupapa, the values identified within the urban design guidelines. We brought two things together, and we applied them to a place or project. And, you know, we also would, part of that process is, we would also look at that cultural context. The cultural context of that land, that landscape, and look at all those connections and start to work through and develop a cultural framework, that we would then develop outcomes from. And so, when you apply a design language, it allows for design teams to understand these concepts, and we were then getting the results, by working with them. And you saw, in one of the presentations, when Tim was talking about the Metro Sports facility, that was probably our first project where we really explored the use of, and the development of, a cultural design strategy, and the outcome of that was really interesting. The designers really got it, they understood. And they were able then to integrate that framework into their design so much more easily, and the end results are so much better, it’s so much more embedded.

JK: Is there anything from your learnings that you do or are able to share with other mana whenua groups who are looking to do similar things in their rohe?

DT: You really need to, you need to develop an organisation, and in that you need to have design professionals as well. Your design professionals. You need to work, you need to team up with those that hold that cultural knowledge as well. The components of what you need may not be housed within the one person. And it's so critical that you've got a robust endorsement process in place. You need to make sure that what outcomes, you need to know that the stories that you're putting out there are the right stories, that you've interpreted those stories correctly.

JK: So the theme of the podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, which is of course extremely relevant to what you do. But basically, do you have any final thoughts on the theme? Or any other whakaaro you'd like to share?

DT: I suppose, I guess just visioning what an urban environment might look like that is a true expression of a Treaty partnership. You know, I think that is something that we all need to aspire to. I think we need to be pushing a lot harder, and I think we need to, I think we need to gear up and we need more Indigenous designers, we need more Indigenous planners, so that we can actually do justice. Because we are stretched. We don't have enough resources to be able to do what we need to be able to do, or capacity. We could be doing so much more, and the work that we do would benefit all. It's not just about Indigenous identity, it's about creating an environment where we are all more connected to the whenua, where we are all more respectful of the whenua, where we can have, where basically at the core, at the core of everything that we do, is the environment, is the natural resources. And if we're looking after those natural resources, then everything else will fall into place. And we would have rivers we can swim, rivers that are full of kai, and much healthier, we would be much healthier as humans, and much closer as whānau. Because we'd be doing more things with the environment, and for the environment. So I think that’s where we need to be heading, that must surely be the future.

JK v/o: We also spoke with Te Aritaua Prendergast nō Ngāi Tahu. Te Ari lives in Tāmaki Makaurau now, but was involved during the early days of the Christchurch rebuild, working alongside others – notably, Ngāi Tahu architect Perry Royal – to ensure iwi perspectives were appropriately considered in the rebuild plans.

Te Aritaua Prendergast: Kia ora. Ko Te Aritaua tōku ingoa, nō Ngāi Tahu me Te Whānau-ā-Apanui, tipu ake au ki Ōtautahi, kei Tāmaki au e mahi anei inaianei ki te kamapenenui o Toa.

JK: I think when I first met you you were working down in Christchurch with Perry Royal in the wake of the earthquake, and you got to be involved in some quite interesting and transformative work early on about how Ngāi Tahu might be involved in the rebuild. And so I just wanted to ask you what that was like at that pivotal point in time, and then maybe ask you to reflect on kind of where we're at now at this point.

TAP: I guess I graduated at a time when Christchurch was still feeling the impacts of the quake. There was still aftershocks, and as far as an industry, many projects had collapsed. So it wasn't a good time to be an architect, or be graduating and looking for work and stuff. So, I was lucky that I had a relationship with Perry Royal.

JK: Alright, so you've graduated, and it wasn't really a great time to be in architecture, and everyone's struggling to kind of recover from what's just happened.

TAP: But I was lucky enough that Perry Royal took me on, and for me it was like, a masterclass in Māori architecture. You know, we had Rewi Thompson popping into the office, and you know, Bill was still around then. So, you know, he was super proud of me graduating, and that meant a huge deal. You know, he like punched me on the shoulder or something like that. You know, just to have these tall tōtara trees to look up to, and work alongside was huge. And we started to kind of agitate that. So Ngāi Tahu had been made a partner in the rebuild, but there was no real vision of what city we actually wanted to rebuild, and there was a fear that if Christchurch gets rebuilt as Little England, it's just us getting colonised all over again. We kind of met with people up the supply chain, and eventually got in front of people like Mark Solomon, and said look, we're architects, we can create a vision that people can get behind. And at the same time, the Blueprint had come out, you know, the idea of probably the biggest urban design project in the history of New Zealand. So to redesign a city is pretty huge, and me and Perry were quite adamant that Ngāi Tahu needed to be involved. It wasn't about us being on any one team. Ngāi Tahu had a seat, and so we were able to fill that seat with, not just us but, you know, we had Ngāi Tahu planners, and lawyers, and environmentalists. So we could match anyone within Council and within CERA, you know, with the same expertise. So it was just the depth within our tribe alone was huge, that we could draw on. So I think that is one of the untold stories of the rebuild, is how we came together as a tribe. And it was more the youth - so we hadn't been involved in the traditional Claims that our parents and grandparents had been involved with. So this was kind of our chance to prove ourselves in battle, but also a worthy cause of rebuilding our city. So, yeah, and that's, I think it's sad that that isn't celebrated enough, the depth of our younger people in our tribe. But yeah, so we managed to get some pretty amazing things in the Blueprint. How that's eventuated, is, hasn't been realised to the level of our aspirations at the time. Obviously you've spoken with Debbie, and you know that some great artworks have been incorporated into buildings, and into landscapes, into spaces. But we had aspirations for buildings to be designed by Ngāi Tahu, not prettied up by Ngāi Tahu. So I think that that's probably where I stand on that.

JK: So you described that some of the, well a lot of the aspirations that were in the original Blueprint and those early plans have not been realised. What would be your future vision for Ōtautahi, and how would you see the city and Ngāi Tahu getting from where we are now, to that future vision?

TAP: Yeah. I think, Victoria Square was quite critical for me. And that started in the Blueprint. It was just a green patch on the plan, at the time, and I was like, well this is the gateway into the central city, and it's the focal point, the heart of the river. So if the river was the backbone of the city, then Victoria Square was like the heart, and the gateway. So, for me, that was critical to the Ngāi Tahu story, and the story of, I mean our ancestors sat on the banks. Not only pre-European times, fishing and catching eels, but also because the Court was there. So, it was where we kind of camped out during the Claim process. And it was also the marketplace where we traded with early settlers. So there's all these overlapping stories of why it's important, and I don't believe that story's really going to be told to the degree that it should be. And that was basically fear from government, fear from the Council, and Ngāi Tahu, to, like. We lacked a real design champion down in Christchurch, like, to push through. Like there was so much public outcry if anything changed, you know, like, so no-one was willing to stick their head out, and champion any good design. So, a lot of the design is just watered down, how can we offend the least people. And that's what's sad. Like, the opportunity to do something great was not politically ideal for most people. Yeah, so I think the river, lots of opportunity there, and there is stories being told. So it's not like there isn't anything there, it's just to the degree and things could have been done, I guess. And obviously there's the Ngāi Tahu cultural centre, which no-one was willing to put a dollar behind, so, that died quite quickly. But that could have been an amazing building and arrival to the cathedral, as an experience within Christchurch. Yeah, it could have been huge.

JK: How do you consider the experiences you've had working with mana whenua cultural narratives in Tāmaki, compared to your experiences in Christchurch?

TAP: I think it's always much harder when you're working with your own. And like, Nick will know. Cause when it cuts, it hurts that much more, and cuts that much deeper. Up here it's an interesting landscape, because the overlapping of the iwi and that, just getting your head around the different dynamics, and the politics. There's always this thing, with, you're not connected to the land cause you're not mana whenua, but, I think once you're connected to a place, you can draw strength from that, no matter where you are in the world. You tread lightly but you're still allowed to walk on that land. And make sure you know, building good relationships with people is probably the most important thing.

JK v/o: You can find out more about Matapopore Trust at matapopore.co.nz.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, In part two of our story on the Ōtautahi rebuild, we look at the work of Ngāi Tahu and Regenerate Christchurch to develop alternative uses for the residential red zone area to the east of the City, including the re-establishment of biodiversity and food gathering areas.

Te Oti Jardine: My tūpuna, my ancestors, we were the first ones to be red zoned. When the settlers came we had to move, and now they came and they built in the place where, our old people said why are they building here? This was our food basket. But, oh no, we'll drain it and build houses. Well, you can see what happened. And, for me, Ruaumoko has given us, has returned the land to us, and given us the opportunity to allow the land to return to its original purpose, which was a mahika kai, where we gathered food.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Dr Patrick Stewart, a citizen of the Nisga'a Nation in north-western British Columbia who has been operating his architectural practice in Sto:lo territory in Chilliwack B.C. since 1995.

GUESTS: Patrick Stewart

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 20.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we speak with Dr Patrick Stewart, a citizen of the Nisga'a Nation in northwestern B.C. from the community of Gingolx, and a member of the Killerwhale House of Daxaan. His Nisga’a name is Luugigyoo, which means calm waters.

Patrick is the founding principal of Patrick R. Stewart Architect, an architectural firm with a First Nations community development focus which has been operating in Sto:lo territory in Chilliwack B.C. since 1995.

JK: Kia ora Patrick, thank you for sitting down with me. So my first question is, who are you, where are you from, and what do you do?

Patrick Stewart: My name is Patrick Stewart. My Nisga'a name is Luugigyoo. I'm an architect, from Canada. I'm from North-Western British Columbia.

JK: I met you, actually, two years ago, when you came over with a group of other Canadian First Nations Indigenous architects, and that was really exciting, because that was definitely a first for me. And since then, we came to visit you last year, and that was really wonderful, you showed us around some of your projects, and we spent time together also in Ottawa at the symposium. And now here we are again. And there's been some really cool stuff that's come out of that. So I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about some of the collaboration that's emerged in this dialogue between Indigenous architects.

PS: Well it has started in the last maybe three years, four years, where us as practitioners have started to find others. I mean it's sort of an organic thing in a sense. It's like, hey, you see some project designed by somebody, and you think, well, I should talk to them. And it just sort of grows like that. You find out names of people who have had a ten year long collaboration with Australia, so I've known those guys, and Rewi Thompson has been collaborating there, had been collaborating there as well, and he was the first Māori architect I met. We were at conferences together, we were on a speaking tour together in Australia, and so, yeah, it was good. And Kevin O'Brien, and Dillon Kombumerri, the two of them were our sort of anchor point there. Michael Mossman has come on since, over there. And that country being closer to here, than I am, they knew more people. So they knew Rau. So that's how that sort of happened, and then finding out about Ngā Aho, and thought, well, that's really big. We don't have an organisation like Ngā Aho, in a sense. I chair the Indigenous Task Force for RAIC, but that's the national architectural organisation. But they do, or did, see their way to having something Indigenous, and that's been a good rallying point for all of us. But we're not our own organisation, and you know, just leaving Tammy's presentation, on the AICAE. I'm a member of that, and I was in Albuquerque last year when they had their meeting, and Michael Laverdure, who's the president, we were talking about, we need to do something. So, we were talking about - and I've got to talk to the RAIC about that - if we can have some kind of link between organisations. It would be good if we had something like Ngā Aho as well.

JK: Building our networks, we're getting strength in numbers.

PS: We are. And when I was, last time in 2011, in Australia, we formed a loose organisation, and it actually had funding. I don't know if the funding's still there. But it was called the International Network of Indigenous Architects. That was just something we put up, and the University of Sydney funded it, and we had some money and we did a few things though that. But, everybody has a busy life, and everybody goes back to their own country, and it's like, time flies.

JK: Especially for Indigenous architects, they're often wearing a million hats, and doing many projects, and network building. You feel like you have to carry the weight of a movement on your shoulders, but I think when you come somewhere like this, you kind of realise, actually, we are all really busy, but it's important to be able to come together and support one another.

PS: It's true, we are busy, and we're always, I think, very positive despite the context we all work in. But we have to be positive because we have to look to the future, and I think that's one aspect that we all have. Because we're all looking to change how the countries we live in accept our cultures.

JK: And having that very long range vision. I mean we're always thinking very far back but also very far forward.

PS: Right. But, far forward is out there, but we still have to get through tomorrow, so.

JK: It's a tension.

PS: It is.

JK: I heard you mention recently that a group of architects from Turtle Island are sending a delegation over to Venice and developing a pavilion for the Biennale. Could you talk a little bit more about how that came about?

PS: Our Indigenous Task Force has been working on projects. Our mandate is to assist First Nations communities in their built environment - whatever that means, whatever a First Nation needs. And, they will pose problems. And we've been doing that, and I think that's how the symposium came about, because it's like, everybody's bursting with ideas, and we just thought, we have enough knowledge here we can share. So, hence our symposium. We invited a contingent from over here, and you guys came, and that was great. I mean, people are still raving about the symposium. And want to know when the next one is going to be.

JK: It was life changing for us, that's for sure.

PS: It was great. It was very good. And I think that why we have such a good response of people coming here, again, right. So, this is the next sort of event. But after the symposium was done, we just looked at each other and thought, what do we do now?

JK: What next? We're ready.

PS: So, Canada Council issued a call for proposals for representing Canada in the 2018 architecture biennale in Venice. So we thought, well, what the heck. We don't expect to win, but let's put in a proposal. And we put in a proposal, and heck, we won. So -

JK: Oh hell, now we have to do it.

PS: And now we have to do it. That's a big problem. When we put in the proposal, it was a couple of us, three of us I think, that were really putting the ideas in, and I thought, well we should honour Douglas, cause Douglas Cardinal is our elder architect in the country. He's going to be 84 this year, and we thought, well, we should hold him up as our leader. We thought it was a great idea. But it's turned out to be a bit of a responsibility, because all of a sudden the government says, okay, you're the leader you've got to sign the contract, and you've got to be responsible fiscally.

JK: Oh no. So it's become the burden on him.

PS: Oh yeah. So we didn't realise that, but we've all told Douglas that we didn't want this to be a burden on him. So, anything we can do, then let us know and we'll do it. We just pitch in, and do that. But it has been a challenge, I mean this, we haven't done this before, it's the first Indigenous entry into the architecture biennale, and from Canada.

JK: Cause normally you come in under the colonial government's. I know that we have had involvement, Rau and Rewi had been involved in previous New Zealand pavilions. But, again, it wasn't entirely an Indigenous group, or entirely Indigenous concept.

PS: But we've been at this now, to say that, you know, that's not good enough, to do it for us anymore, you know. So, we thought well, we'll do it. We'll put an all-Indigenous team in, and we did. And then, compromises and complexities set in, and it turns out to be what it is, and it's a big challenge. Canada's a big country, and we have people very scattered across the country. And that always increases the cost. We have a film team that has to travel across the country to film everybody and their work, and all that stuff, and that's expensive.

JK: So how many architects involved, and what's the concept?

PS: We have about 18 members on our team, and the idea is to showcase each architect's work. So, I think we call ourselves exhibiting architects, as part of the team. I don't know if that's our title. But we have formed research teams. We have four research teams.

And we just divided us all up into those teams. We put a woman architect as the head of each team. That was important to honour the women on the teams. So, they've been charged with bringing us together, and we've had teleconferences trying to figure out within that area what we want to present, how we want to present that. The idea is that each territory that we're researching will be presented. Each architect, registered architect, will be presented, and then their work will be presented. We want to talk about the history of Canada and colonisation, and that's one of the territories. And, what that's done, and territories of Indigeneity, we'll talk about how we're trying to get out from under that colonising regime and be our own.

JK: So it sounds like a really challenging project, but when you pull it off, which you will, what is that going to mean for Indigenous peoples in Canada, and for the architecture profession.

PS: Well, already, the architectural profession has had to sit up and notice. It's like, that we'd won the right to represent Canada. Never happened before, nobody expected it, but, here we are. So, one thing we've found - and this has sort of fallen back to on our Indigenous Task Force - that people are finding out about it, and they're phoning us, you know. We'll get Minister, government Ministers, both provincial and federal, phoning us and saying, we want to find out more about the Indigenous Task Force, how can you help us? Which is kind of bizarre.

JK: Word is travelling, they know you're here.

PS: So, it's kind of bizarre, because we're not sure of their sincerity, or, because it's a bureaucracy. Government. What impact are we going to be able to do, right? They have ideas, like creating a national Indigenous centre in Ottawa by giving us a former embassy. Right across the street from parliament hill. And, that happened last summer, and I came out against it in the media, and that was a bit of a challenge. And so now they're trying to get around me by going to other people, and saying, isn't this still a good idea? We want to give you this building. And we said, well, it's a historic building, for one thing, it was the former American Embassy, and, you know, some of us are feeling like you're just giving us your old handoffs. Because, the building's been vacant for 20 years, and they built a brand new American Embassy, and those guys moved out and went somewhere else. And so it sat empty. And they tried to turn it into other buildings and nobody really wanted it. So they said, well let's give it to the Indians.

JK: Surely they'll be grateful.

PS: Yeah. Yeah, of course. So, you know, I said well, we didn't want it, but if we had to take that site because that was all the game was, I said, let's demolish it and start again. That wasn't -

JK: That wasn't received well?

PS: No. I got in heck for that. Even the RAIC got after me, saying, it's a heritage building, you can't demolish it.

JK: Who's heritage?

PS: Yeah, really. That's what we said.

JK: And sometimes it's a funny tension when there's this real insistence on preserving heritage architecture that sometimes actually has a lot of pain associated with it for Indigenous peoples. And it's also something that nobody really loves or wants anymore, but because we're bound by legislation to celebrate anything that has that kind of colonial heritage, you're not allowed to do anything with it.

PS: Well, Canadian government has a, I don't know what you want to call it, it's more than a programme but it's some kind of mandate they have on reconciliation. So, which to me is just a bogus concept. It's like, we don't have anything to reconcile. We didn't do anything. We're the victims. It was our land that was stolen. We didn't steal anybody's, any settlers lands or anything like that. They came over here. We didn't ask them to come. But it, all the settlers are trying to reconcile, and they're pushing it on us and making it our responsibility. Saying, how would you handle reconciliation of such and such a topic? And it's like, I wouldn't. It's an issue. But then they tie dollars to it. If you want dollars, then you have to submit a proposal, and it has to include an element of reconciliation. And it's like, well -

JK: Held to ransom.

PS: They do. And it's a complex thing, it makes it difficult. And so, that's why I say, nothing is ever as it seems, right. A gift is a trojan horse. It's like, wow. Once you unpack that, there's so many issues you have to deal with. And if you start accepting those gifts, what does that make you, or what does that say, right? So, we'll have to see what happens.

JK: Challenging landscape that you're navigating.

PS: Totally.

JK: So another thing I did want to talk about is your work back at home. So, I understand you live a little way out of Vancouver, but your traditional territories are quite far from there. And you spoke a little bit about it yesterday, I guess the challenges of being somewhere very remote. So something I'm really interested in is that tension between working in remote haukāinga home communities, versus being in an urban environment where a lot of our Indigenous people now live. And also the experience of being a visitor in another Nation, and the way you kind of work with the home peoples there. So I'm just wondering if you could maybe reflect a little on your practice, in relation to your tribal affiliations and identity, and then working and being, like, out of place.

PS: I'll always acknowledge who I am, and my culture, so it is the lens through which I work. And that carries with me. It doesn't matter what community I live in, or work in sorry. And, it is a calling card, in a sense. It opens doors, because people understand where I'm from, and so, from one First Nations to another there are some commonalities. And it depends which community you're going to, or which Nation you're going to, they want to know who your grandparents are, who your parents are, and all that stuff. And, that's been valuable. Your question about remote versus urban, we have a growing issue in Canada where more and more people are moving to urban areas, and that probably isn't isolated to Canada. Australia, New Zealand, probably have similar issues. Where people are leaving their home communities and reasons of lack of housing, lack of education, lack of medical services, lots of reasons. Lack of work. So, people go where the work is or where the housing is, where the school opportunities are. Or people will move for the kids, for school. Like for example, in my community there's no high school. So, kids have to leave. Where do they go? Since our Treaty in 2000 there's been a road put through to our community, but the high school's a drive. It's 2 hours. So the kids have to get on the bus at like seven in the morning to get to school by nine, and then they get home at suppertime. That's a long day. For kids.

JK: That's a lot of time in transit.

PS: It is. Yeah. So it's either that or they move.

JK: And go to boarding school? Or the whole family moves?

PS: Sometimes the whole family moves. And sometimes they won't stay up north. Because they'll think, like a lot people think, go to a big city where there's more opportunity.

JK: And often this becomes intergenerational. So, one generation might go there thinking it's temporary for opportunity, but two generations, that family might still be in the city, and maybe they don't return to their home community, or they start to experience that disconnection.

PS: Well that's true. Once somebody leaves a home community, like my mother left our community and never went back. And, we've never moved there, so, any. Well, she's not alone, all her siblings moved, so there's none of my uncles or aunts are there. Because there's just no opportunities. But, having left, now there's no housing, right. So you can't go back. You can't go back. So it's just a compounding issue.

JK: Acknowledging that architecture is just one part of some of the solutions to these complex social and economic issues, notwithstanding, how do you as an architect respond to working in that context?

PS: Well, different ways, I suppose. Some communities will ask me to come in to fill a specific need. So I've done some elders housing for a couple of communities. So that's a specific housing type. But I've been getting involved lately with some more experimental housing. Both of a modular type and an alternative construction type, that is sort of low tech, very basic, off-the-grid kind of thinking. But it's exciting -

JK: Accessible to those communities.

PS: Yeah. So they're using resources in a different way. I don't know if you know cordwood construction. So, because B.C. has such forest resources, there's a lot of waste.

JK: From the timber industry?

PS: Mmm. So, in one community, well one area of the province in the South-East, when they chop the trees down and take it out, they will clear the land, but they just pile it up. They just make big mountains of all this timber waste, cause it's not the right grade or whatever, but it's got cut down, and they just leave it to rot. Or they'll burn it. But burning's a big issue in the province, ecologically and because we have big forest fire problems. So, what this one community is thinking, is, to go and access that timber that's left, the cuts, and use that in cordwood. And, it's handmade, hand built housing, and it's low tech, but people have been living in those kind of houses for hundreds of years.

JK: But we're really seeing the potential of going back to some of these self-build models, but utilising aspects of technology to allow that to happen.

PS: Yeah. Trying to fit the modern with historical building types.

JK: I think we need to be having those conversations too, and considering those options, because something we have the same problems here, where a lot of our families, particularly in rural areas, are on very low incomes. They haven't got the kind of mindset around having a thing like a mortgage, and probably it would be irresponsible to be given one, given the low employment and low economic opportunities in that area. And we've got a lot of whānau who, they don't have rent - because they live on their own land - but they live in very poor substandard housing. And I think for those families, we need to be thinking, well how can they be supported to respond to their own housing need.

PS: Right. And one idea I suppose is to have the owner, the home owner, participate in the construction. It's low tech, but if they want a house, then they have to put in the effort. The family has to put in the effort. And there's another community in B.C. that has done that, and they've got good results. And, they've taken the whole community off the grid. It's all solar powered.

JK: Wow. Is it a microgrid or individual dwellings?

PS: Individual dwellings. But, they make money, they sell back to the grid, and every homeowner participates. So, that seems to be another option.

JK: For self-sufficiency, but also some economic development.

PS: Yes. Well, and the non-Indigenous community that surrounds them, the city, the capital commission, has started to take notice. That here's a community that's off the grid, and they're making money by selling power back to the grid. And so they're employing the community, and other companies have tried to hire their workers away, cause they see the success, and the community's hanging on to them. And they're now selling services to the non-Indigenous communities, and providing them with solar power. It's great.

JK: Innovation in action.

PS: Yeah. It's good.

JK: Indigenous communities leading the way. This is what we like to hear.

PS: Yeah. And we have other technologies, like wind power is another one. Some communities are really embracing wind, and powering their communities. So, that's a thing on the coast of British Columbia, where we have the winds always constant, and I'm sure you've got winds constant here too. But they're starting to look at wind. And, you know, our Nation has developed a wind power company, I guess, and exploring how they can build these wind farms, provide energy and economic development for poor people.

JK: Something I really loved when we came to visit you and you took us to Seabird Island, and we visited the community centre there, and there was this kind of incredible / awful juxtaposition between your building and this very famous work of architecture next door, and just hearing that, actually, this much photographed many awards building, the community didn't really love it. And they had lots of problems with it.

PS: They did. And that was right from the get go, and again it's a government origination I guess, in terms of they had a budget to build a school, and they thought, wouldn't it be cool if we gave the community a nice looking school. And that's what they did. They said we've got a school for you, here it is. And, the school got built, and the community wasn't consulted. That was their first mistake. They had no input into it. So, when I came around to do the community centre, they took me through the school and said, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, and it was just like, holy cow. A whole long list of things that I shouldn't do, because they're not going to like it if I put them in the new building. And so, I quite often say that our building's, in a sense, in reaction to that, but I see that as a totally colonist kind of construction. Because, the community had no input. Well the process was all wrong. And I think so much of Indigenous architecture is about process. And you can create a really beautiful looking object - and yes it is a beautiful looking object - but if you don't actually work with the community, they're never going to, it's not going to be what they wanted, and they're not going to have ownership of it.

PS: Well they're not going to have a good positive sense about the building. So they have vandalism, they don't maintain the building well. It's 20-some-odd years old now and it doesn't look so nice anymore. And, I don't know what they're intent is, but, it's looking tired. So, I look at our building, where we had total community involvement, we used traditional form, it was a community built project. So, all the timber was sourced from their land, they milled it, they kiln dried it, they built it with their own teams, they stained it, they applied their own artwork or their own cultural symbols to the building, and the building's well taken care of. They maintain it, and they love it. So, to me that is a successful building. Because I can go back and, you know, it's 20-something-odd years old and it still looks very good.

JK: Now something I really enjoyed when we went there, I can't remember what colour it was originally, but you said, oh no, it was originally this colour, and they've painted it a different colour. But what I really liked is that you were very relaxed about it. You're like, oh well, it's their building, whatever they like is fine.

PS: Well.

JK: Instead of being very precious, which I think architects sometimes can be, 'that's not what I designed.'

PS: When it comes to colour, this is just something that I've always done, because I see colour as a transitory thing. It isn't permanent. So, it can be changed at any time. So, one thing I don't do, and this is just my own particular whatever, I don't usually pick the colours. Cause to me, again, this is a very visual object in their community. If they want it to be green, or red, then they should be able to have it green or red. And if I want it brown, I shouldn't be allowed to have it brown. So, if they change the colour, that's okay. The form's still there, building's still there, it still operates the way it's supposed to, they're still happy with it. They're probably happier with it now that they change the colour. But it still has a fresh face, and to me that shows that they're maintaining it, as opposed to if they left it that same colour 20 years later, it might look tired. I mean yes, they could have painted it the same colour, but they decided not. And it's like, that's okay. I don't have a problem with it. Yeah. I don't know if you remember Corbusier's project in France in Pessac, where he built these workers houses, back in the twenties I think. And, his idea was that he built the box, the frame. And yes it was a complete house, but he then allowed the inhabitants to change it. And they did. Over 20 years or 30 years, well, it still exists today. They've added on, they've changed the windows, they've just done all kinds of things. And, it's because that's the way they live and that makes them create the environment that they want. So, I don't really see that as an issue.

JK: Well I've got one last question. So, the title of the podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, and we're looking at how Indigenous communities are, in the current political environment, and increasing capacity and capability, how Indigenous communities are increasingly able to shape and influence their physical environments. So I just wanted to know if you had any concluding thoughts on that.

PS: Well it's a good question. And as more and more architects who are Indigenous are getting into practice, and working in urban areas, it's becoming a point of discussion. Different handle it differently. Yesterday, when we did the keynotes, our opening speaker Te Maire, I went up to him after and I just thanked him for his words, because he said, now's the time to end the subtlety. He says, we need to have it in their face, our visual representation.

JK: Smash them with it.

PS: Exactly. And that's been my modus operandi since I started. Because to me, our culture was ended, violently. Our visual representation of our culture ended violently. Our houses were burnt, or smashed down. On our North coast, our totem poles were cut down and floated away to museums, all our regalia, our musical instruments, our clothing, were all bundled up and taken away. And they didn't burn them or throw them away necessarily, because they thought, hey, this rattle could be valuable, and people put it in their private collections. And there are people in B.C. that have collections worth millions of dollars that are now their heirs from the old missionaries. Right. So, because of that violence I think it's only appropriate that we put it back, in a way, violently, by building it. So that we put, I put totem poles in the city in front of my buildings, and I use traditional form, and I put it in the city, and I use the colours, the traditional colours and I put it in the city. And city hall responds, like saying, that's exotic. We can't have that. And it's like, we come back at them and say, is Chinatown exotic? Cause you allow that. And, they say, well no, but that's just like an enclave kind of thing. And it's just like, okay well, we're not an enclave but we're building in the city, and we want to do this. As an architect, one of the things city hall expects, is that A you're a registered architect, you've sworn the oath, you know the laws, and the rules, and the regulations, and you're duty bound to respect them. So city hall says, when we say no we mean no. So, I just turn to my client and I say, they won't let us do this certain aspect of the building. And you need to go talk to the city. Because city hall's afraid of owners. They pay the taxes. They build the things. They're the ones that are sort of creating the built environment, from an ownership perspective, and my clients will go and talk to city hall. And they get their way. So, I don't have to be the bad guy, and I don't have to butt my head against the city.

JK: You don't have to fight them.

PS: No. Because it's a losing battle for me. But for the owner to go, it's a win for him. A win for me. And on we go.

JK: Kind of a really important thing about resisting that blending with the colonial landscape. Because I think only if you put things forward that are quite bold and reassert Indigenous identity, will that landscape start to change. I don't think you can really start from a gradual position, because it's so far away, currently.

PS: Well to me, subtlety is just, people miss it. It's just like, you know, and there are Indigenous architects who are very subtle, and they don't believe using things like traditional form, colours, is the way to go. They want to be modern, and they want to be subtle. And it's like, okay, be subtle, but nobody's going to understand what the heck it is. But, that's okay. That's they're perspective. And to me, that's not a strong position. That's watered down. To me, if we're serving the culture then we have to privilege that culture. And we have to represent that culture.

JK: Unapologetically

PS: Unapologetically, and the way that the culture wants to be represented. I don't do this just out of my brain and say, one day I'm going to just draw this and build it. It's like, no, I have a client who's of the culture, and they say, this is what we want. And this is what we agree to. And this is, you know -

JK: And you have that responsibility to facilitate that and bring it to life.

PS: Yes.

JK: Interpreting things, and putting them into the built environment.

PS: Right. And to me that's a successful partnership between a community and what we do, and that's one thing I've always said, is I do facilitate design. Thanks for bring that up. Because, you know, the building is their legacy, it's not mine. I will help them get it built, but then I'm gone.

JK: And they have to live with that building.

PS: They have to live with it. You just took the words right out of my mouth.

JK v/o: You can find out more about Patrick’s work at patrickstewartarchitect.com.

This episode was recorded on location at Nā Te Kore, the second international indigenous designers hui hosted by Ngā Aho in March 2018.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we travel to Ōtautahi Christchurch to see how Ngāi Tahu and Ngāi Tūāhuriri are working with the City, designers and developers to reveal and rebuild a world leading, authentic, post-colonial city of the future.

Debbie Tikao: At the core of everything that we do is the environment, is the natural resources. And if we're looking after those natural resources, then everything else will fall into place, you know. And we would have rivers we can swim in, rivers that are full of kai, and much healthier, we would be much healthier as human, and much closer as whānau. Because we'd be doing more things, with the environment and for the environment, so, I think that’s where we’re heading, that must surely be the future.

EPISODE SUMMARY: In part two of our story on the Imagining Decolonised Cities project, we talk to some of the practitioners who were involved in a day-long, free public hui held at Takapūwāhia Marae in Porirua which invited public dialogue on the question - "what is a decolonised city?"

GUESTS: Lena Henry, Rebecca Kiddle

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: Our urban landscapes in Aotearoa New Zealand have been arranged and disciplined according to colonial values which favour private over communal land ownership. For mana whenua living in what have become urban environments, the city rose up around them, their land base eroded rapidly, acre by acre. They were pushed out, often forcibly.
New Zealand has a long history of seeking to contain and erase indigeneity in urban places, swiftly quashing any assertions of Māori sovereignty in the urban environment. The occupation of Takaparawhau in 1977 and the 1995 occupation of Moutoa Gardens are both notable examples in New Zealand history.

So what is a decolonised city anyway? And why does it matter?

Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 19.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, part two of our story on the Imagining Decolonised Cities project, we talk to some of the practitioners who were involved in a day-long, free public hui held at Takapūwāhia Marae in Porirua which invited public dialogue on the question - "what is a decolonised city?"

The Imagining Decolonised Cities project was initiated by a team of academics from Victoria University of Wellington and members of Ngāti Toa Rangatira to stimulate discussion around what our cities might be like in the future if they were decolonised.

We spoke with Lena Henry, nō Ngāti Hine, a lecturer in planning at the University of Auckland, and one of the speakers at the symposium.

Lena Henry: I te taha o tōku pāpā, ko Otamaewa te maunga, ko Mahururoa te awa, ko Ngāti Toro te hapū, ko Ngāpuhi te iwi. Nō te kāinga Otaua. Ko Piki Te Aroha te marae. I te taha o tōku māmā, nō Ngāti Hine, ko Hineamaru te rangatira. Āe. Ko au tenei. Lena Henry.

JK: So as part of the Imagining Decolonised Cities project in Porirua, there was a one day symposium at Takapūwāhia Marae, that really just encouraged people to think about 'what is a decolonised city?' and what might it be like, and what is the process to get there? And there was a wide range of speakers talking about their mahi, and reflecting on that provocation. I just wondered if you could perhaps share some of your whakaaro around that topic? I think it was a really cool thing to provoke people to think and talk about this idea of a decolonised city.

LH: So first of all, I really appreciated the privilege of being able to present some ideas. And I like to use these opportunities as a way to reflect back what communities have said to me in the past. And so, the actual kaupapa of decolonisation has been one that has been talked about for a long time, and I guess the adding onto that, decolonising cities, has been the new addition to the kōrero about decolonisation. So it was really about understanding 'what is decolonisation'? Because I think what we've tried to do, primarily, is to indigenise. And then decolonise really fits well with planning, because it's about the structural dimensions, as well as talking about, how do we reconstruct or reclaim the processes of planning, and develop policies that will provide the types of outcomes that we're looking at. So, what I talked about then was really looking at, what are the aspirations, that I know of? That would represent a decolonised city. And I quickly started off with an interaction or discussion I had with our then five year old, Toa. Toa Slavomir. Where he was, we were down on Queen St, waiting for Helen to finish work, and he looked up at these, he was just looking around his environment, and I was looking at my phone, and he said, he just said to me, 'why don't they like us?' And I sort of stopped, and put my phone away, and I thought, what have I missed? And I go, 'who doesn't like us?' And he goes, 'why don't they like Māori?' and I thought, have I missed something, is someone looking at us? And then I said, why do you ask that? And he just pointed up to the signs. So he goes to a rūmaki reo class called Whānau Ata down at Freeman's Bay, and he was learning how to read Māori. And so, obviously he's waiting and he's trying to engage with his environment, his urban environment, Queen St, and he just said, 'why don't they like Māori?' And he pointed up at this signs. He goes, 'there's no Māori words. I don't know how to read that.' And, so it really is apparent to, you know, a five year old, that their environment doesn't represent who they are, or their aspirations for fitting into these environments. So, I really started off with that, with quite an innocent child's perspective. And if we can hear from children again, at his age, really looking and feeling like they're engaged with the environment, and that they can see themselves reflected in their urban environment, then we're doing well. So I started off with that story, and I think that's going to be one of the indicators that we've reached a decolonised city, the imagined decolonised city, that we might set today.

JK: Māori have been historically categorised as rural, but as we know the majority of our populations do live in cities, and I think there's starting to be a shift in thinking about what constitutes a Māori space. It's not just our marae and our papakāinga - which of course are important - but it's much wider than that, it extends into our landscape, it extends into our cities. And I suppose with these thoughts in mind, I wanted to ask, for those of us who are perhaps not mana whenua, who are built environment practitioners, what impact does that have on the way we approach our work, and the relationships we have with people and place.

LH: For me, there's now a formal category around 'what is mana whenua?' And, how I always approach it, I mean we go through reframing what this actually means, but, for me, it's always trying to find the connection. As opposed to differentiating and identifying what you're not, I think it's identifying how you connect. So for me, there's tātai that I have been taught, or I've listened to and just heard in discussion around the tātai, the connections between us to our cousins here in Tāmaki Makaurau. And so, what that says to me is that, yes I've got these connections, and wherever we are, we should support the tangata whenua, the hapū, the iwi, mana whenua of that particular rohe. And, in terms of being a resident, a Māori resident, a Ngāpuhi person living in Tāmaki Makaurau, it doesn't mean that we're second class citizens. And that's what I fear about those differentiations around those categories, is that the way in which it is interpreted by institutions, start creating a separation, as opposed to what whakapapa should do, is to make these connections. That's why we get up, and we talk about our pepeha. We're trying to seek connection, as well as identify where we're from and how proud we are to be of that whakapapa. So, I'm very much into, like, not buying into legal frameworks of who we are and who we're not. I think the needs, the rights of participation, the rights to decision making, are clear within tīkanga, about our role. So I don't know about the deep heritage, the cultural significance, of areas that mana whenua will talk about. I know things about, say, a particular site, or a place. I do know some things. But I don't know that, and it's not my connection. So what I've always taught our students is to approach it in an inclusionary, as opposed to exclusionary, way. So what I have to offer, or anyone else has to offer, is adding to the decisions. It's not saying, that's more valid than that. It's more like, what does this person have to offer, in terms of what planning decisions, or what decisions are being made, as opposed to how a non-Māori approach would be, in terms of trying to build hierarchies consistently. So we're okay with multiple names on one site, and that's just an example of how we should operate in terms of connections and valid contributions to information being gathered about a particular site. So, that's how I approach it anyway. Yes, mana whenua have, definitely have a significant contribution to how we plan our cities, but so do others, other Māori living in these areas. Especially in this Treaty settlement era, where whakapapa is used to distinguish what's yours and what's not. So pulling back from that is just to go back to tīkanga, and we know that, when we go to pōwhiri, and we hear a mihimihi, somebody will talk about the connections, that they have or their iwi have, or the group has to that place. And so, I think just going back to tīkanga and what we observe still, those very basic traditions, will keep us in good stead.

JK: The kaupapa of the podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, and I just wanted to invite you, if you had any final thoughts on that theme, or anything you wanted to talk about.

LH: This idea around Indigenous Urbanism, you referred to it in the beginning about not separating rural to urban. Those categories really have derived from where our planning system has been imported from, and that's the British model, the UK system of planning, where they, you know, the whole Ebenezer Howard and all of those theorists around City planning. I believe what we can contribute to these environments, is maintaining a sense of kaitiakitanga, so the concrete jungle still has connections and, is still mindful of Papatūānuku, and the other flora, fauna, the environment that we share it with. The birds and all that, like making sure that we're still looking at our connections, our wider connections, as opposed to 'cities are for people.' And so, I think we bring that to how we plan cities in Aotearoa New Zealand. I believe that the value of whakaaro Māori or te ao Māori perspectives has yet really to be realised, because we're not at the table, we're not designing the policies, and the practices and processes to gather those roots. But, you know, we just want basic things, like go down to the harbour. That Ngāti Whātua and their children can go down and pick from their own harbour. Kai moana, that they can go eeling in their own backyard. We still get to do that up home, and we shouldn't take that for granted. But those are the same things, those are the same aspirations, the City grew up around them. And it's a real issue. But we have to be constantly, and vigilant, around maintaining those types of experiences. Because if we disconnect, if we don't allow our children to have those relationships, that's where the mātauranga comes from. It's in our whakataukī. For example, proverbs that I've heard, I wasn't able to connect with them immediately. So, went to this hui, a Ngāti Hine hui, and Percy Tipene actually talked about this issue as being one likened to how you cook tuna - in time it will become clear. And I thought - he said this all in Māori of course - and when I spoke to my mum, I was like, what does he mean by that? And she said, well when you cook tuna, it's all cloudy, then you keep cooking it, and the water turns clear. Now how would we be able to relate to that type of whakataukī, if we don't allow ourselves or children to have that experience of valuing kai, valuing how it's caught, and valuing how it's cooked that way. So, yeah, I mean it's a real challenge, but I think that's really the main agenda, is that we are able to really be Māori because we understand these whakataukī, we understand the importance of our connection with the manu, and the environment, etc. and how we ensure that that continues, in a concrete jungle.

JK v/o: At the end of the project, we asked Rebecca Kiddle if her thinking on decolonisation had changed as result of initiating and participating in this very public dialogue.

Rebecca Kiddle: So the definition that we put forward had two components to it. The first one was around identity, and that being mana whenua or the local iwi's identity, being important to be able to see in that landscape. So, often the phrase 'seeing our faces in these places' is thrown around. That kind of thing - how do we make sure that this looks like a Māori city, or a Ngāti Toa city in this case, given it was Porirua. So that's one part of the identity, one part of the definition for me. The second part was around justice, really. And that, for me that's not just about mana whenua, but that's about mana whenua and mataawaka, everyone who is Māori that lives in the city, that experiences some level of disadvantage, which tends to be because they are Māori and have had to suffer the impacts of colonisation. To put it very simply. But I think, what was highlighted to me in seeing some of the responses to this, is that I don't think we can just look to the past for answers. So I think that's of course a really important part of this, we do have to be grounded and rooted in the histories of this place, but we can't come up with something that just mimics what happened before, or looks exactly like that. We have to be thinking a bit more sophisticatedly about what decolonisation means. For now, and really start to think about, what are we really wanting? Is it about social and cultural justice? Well for me, it is. And so that is much more complex than building a pā site. And whilst I, you know, I'm not meaning to disparage those who propose that kind of thing, but merely to say that I think we need, we perhaps need to think about that, what was, and take principles from that, and work out what that means for now, and that could have a whole host of realisations.

JK: As built environment people, as architects and urban designers, and others who are working in that space, of course social justice should be at the core of what we do, but I think also with some pragmatism around the fact that design and architecture and planning alone won't result in reform of our social and economic systems, our political systems, but it has a kind of relationship to and a dialogue with. So there's a lot we can do, but we can’t do everything in that space.

RK: So, I think Māori have a lot of agency in cities. And I think whilst cities are sites of pain for many, they're also sites of opportunity, and I think that many Māori whānau have created their own spaces, despite the fact that colonial urban form hasn't necessarily supported the ways in which they wanted to live. And I think that's really important to recognise that agency that many Māori have shown and have. I also think that many Māori whānau influence Pākehā whānau, and Pākehā ways of doing things, and I think, if we recognise that, then we can go some way to influencing urban planning and design policy, because that's, in an urban design and planning policy that's rooted very much in this country. So yeah, I think those two things are a couple of things that I think it's important to recognise, which often aren't actually. We talk about the ways in which Māori have been colonised, which of course is important, but actually I think Māori have done a bit of influencing of their own, in terms of, in very subtle ways, in terms of influencing Pākehā ways of doing things. Yeah. So, I’m interested to explore that.

JK v/o: The Imagining Decolonised Cities project is a collaboration between Ngāti Toa Rangatira and Victoria University of Wellington. You can find out more about the project at idcities.co.nz.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Dr Patrick Stewart. Patrick is a citizen of the Nisga'a Nation in NorthWestern B.C., and has been operating his architectural practice in Sto:lo territory in Chilliwack BC since 1995.

Patrick Stewart: To me our culture was ended violently. Our visual representation of our culture ended violently. Our houses were burnt, or smashed down. On our North coast, our totem poles were cut down and floated away to museums, all our regalia, our musical instruments, our clothing, were all bundled up and taken away. Because of that violence I think it's only appropriate that we put it back, in a way, violently, by building it. So that we put, I put totem poles in the city in front of my buildings, and I use traditional form, and I put it in the city, and I use the colours, the traditional colours and I put it in the City.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we travel to Porirua, Wellington to learn about Imagining Decolonised Cities, a project designed to stimulate discussion around what our cities could look, feel, sound, taste and smell like if they were decolonised.

GUESTS: Rebecca Kiddle, Fiona Ting, Jessica Hulme

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: If we walk around our cities in Aotearoa, they feel like colonial spaces. This is changing, slowly, but on the whole they don’t feel very Māori. In general, they don’t reflect the hau kāinga or local people of that place.

Our cities in New Zealand have, for the most part, taken shape according to Eurocentric values. Pre- and early- European contact, Māori had kāinga and pā where all the major cities were founded, but were dispossessed of their land in order for these cities to be built.

Māori concerns have historically been understood as rural despite the fact that most Māori live in cities, and urban spaces are turangawaewae for a number of iwi and hapū.

So, what is a decolonised city anyway?

Rebecca Kiddle: We wanted to explore this idea of decolonisation, and that really started from not really understanding what that might mean, in relation, particularly to the build environment. New Zealand often understands itself to be a rural place. And maybe you've heard people talk about this before, but we're one of the most urbanised countries in the world, and yet we still understand ourselves to be, you know, people with sheep basically. The reasons for exploring that are, that it becomes pretty problematic if we conceptualise ourselves to be rural, in relation to Māori identity. So what I think happens, is people understand Māori-ness to be a rural thing. It's not an urban thing, it's not something that’s relevant to the City, and that’s problematic in two ways. First of all it kind of dismisses the mana of the iwi and hapū, for whom these places are theirs. So, Te Ātiawa, Ngāti Toa, Ngāti Whātua in Auckland, and so on. It means that their identities aren't represented well in the built environment. I think the second is really about a sort of general kind of erasure of indigeneity in the built environment.

JK v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 18.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we travel to Porirua to learn about Imagining Decolonised Cities, a project designed to stimulate discussion around what our cities could look, feel, sound, taste and smell like if they were decolonised.

The project did this through eliciting utopian ideas for a decolonised city through a public urban design competition, and a public symposium where speakers were invited to respond to the provocation ‘What is a decolonised city?’

We spoke with Dr. Rebecca Kiddle, nō Ngāti Porou raua ko Ngāpuhi, a senior lecturer at Victoria University of Wellington, and leader of the Imagining Decolonised Cities project.

RK: I te taha tōku kuia nō Ngāpuhi. I te taha tōku koroua, ko Hikurangi te maunga, ko Waiapu te awa, ko Ngāti Porou te iwi. I tipu ake au i Heretaunga, ko Becky Kiddle tōku ingoa. So I'm Ngāti Porou and Ngāpuhi, but I grew up in Kahungunu territory, and yeah, my name's Becky Kiddle and I'm a senior lecturer in environmental studies at Victoria University.

JK: Could you talk us through the project, and how it came about?

RK: That project came about cause I had spent a few years overseas. So I was overseas for about ten years, and I came back and sort of felt a little bit like our built environments hadn't moved on all that much, since I had left. There was obviously some real gains in some areas of the country, particularly around uptake of the Te Aranga principles in Auckland. But for the most part Māori were seen to be excluded from decision making processes around, just the form and function of our cities. In parallel with that, there was a real sense of pain, I guess, amongst Māori communities, around what cities were and meant to them. And that pain is for obvious reasons, all the government policies post-World War 2 that led Māori into the cities, and led to the demise of things like culture and language, and has caused a whole lot of pain amongst many Māori communities. Those are those coming from other rohe to be in the cities, but there's also pain amongst iwi for whom the city has always been their papakāinga or their tūrangawaewae or whatever. So, a sort of double-edged pain going on around cities and Māori. But I think the problem of conceptualising cities as all being about painful reminders of terrible government policy, is that we can miss out on the opportunities of cities, which I think there are many. And many of us younger Māori are quite keen to live in cities, because there's lots of opportunities to be who you want to be, and live in ways that you want to live. But there obviously could be more in terms of cities supporting Māori tīkanga, and just ways of being I guess. So, talking to some colleagues around the place here at Vic, we decided that we would really like to explore this idea of decolonisation. And it's kind of a lofty term decolonisation, it's used often in very highfalutin ways, and I was like, well what does that mean, exactly? What does it really, really mean. And, I think sometimes it's quite hard to make tangible the notion of decolonisation. So, the whole project was really about us trying to work out what decolonisation means for cities, and doing that in what we hoped was quite a democratic way actually. By opening up this competition to New Zealanders - all New Zealanders, not just Māori - and the reason it wasn't just for Māori is because we were very firmly of the opinion that decolonisation - whatever that might mean - is the work of everyone, not just Māori. Māori are so overcapitalised - is that the right word? They're drawn to be involved in a whole heap of things, and capacity is pretty low in terms of ability to be able to influence a whole host of things. So, decolonisation's got to be a shared effort, if we're actually ever going to achieve it. So, that was the impetus really, was about getting some tangible ideas about what it might mean for the built environment.

JK: Could you tell us about the competition?

RK: So the competition was funded by UNESCO, well the New Zealand arm of UNESCO, I think it's called the National Commission for UNESCO. And as I said, we opened it up to anyone, but we were particularly interested in three categories - so, under 18 year olds, we wanted a youth perspective, and the reason we wanted a youth perspective is because, our thinking was, that often young people are less muddied, I guess, by the impact of colonisation, and so we were hoping that they would have some really great ideas that perhaps are not rooted in a real strongly held sense of the impact of colonisation, which I think many of us older generation might have. And then we wanted to open it up to the general public, so we were really clear that we wanted anyone to be able to be involved in the competition, because those who live in cities are experts in living in cities, so therefore, why wouldn't they have good ideas in thinking about decolonisation for cities. And then finally, we were keen to involve professionals as well, because it's their bread and butter, and we wanted to see if they also had some interesting ideas for the city. With the young people, we were quite clear that we wanted to make sure that they felt able to participate. So we were concerned that if we just threw it open, young people might not necessarily take part. So we worked with secondary school aged children at Aotea and Mana colleges in Porirua, and we did a couple of two to three day wānanga with students to teach them and give them some urban design skills, and some communication skills that they might use to enter the competition. And a lot of them did enter. Not everyone entered, but many of them did enter, but in the meantime they got to experience the architecture school at Vic, and see what it might be like to come to university, and just give them some opportunities to understand what university life might be so they might be interested in coming.

JK v/o: The public urban design competition encouraged people to think about how we might ‘decolonise’ cities in Aotearoa New Zealand.

Two sites, at two different scales were offered on which to consider the question ‘What is a decolonised city?’ At the larger scale is the Onepoto arm of the Te Awarua o Porirua and shoreline.

RK: Partly we chose that because with a new roading system, transmission gully, the Eastern side of that harbour is going to change dramatically over the next few years, and the local Council were keen to get ideas about how they might redevelop the harbour. The harbour also was a key site for Ngāti Toa Rangatira, the local iwi. It was their food basket, and it was also the place where they went to heal over the years, and often due to government policy - like the Public Works Act - the harbour had been systematically polluted, and now is somewhere that they can no longer collect kai moana, or go to bathe.

JK v/o: At the smaller scale is a papakāinga site owned by the Parai whānau. One of the impacts of colonisation was the loss of what is now urban land from iwi and hapū ownership. In Porirua, Ngāti Toa Rangatira lost many acres of land, often via the Public Works Act.

RK: We had a papakāinga site, which was based on some land that a local whānau, the Parai whānau, had actually bought back from the government, despite it being taken from them. Under the Public Works Act, they fought for many years, and finally were able to purchase it back. And their vision is to develop a papakāinga for their whānau on this piece of land.

JK v/o: I teamed up with fellow architecture graduate Jessica Hulme, and landscape architecture graduates Fiona Ting and Tosh Graham, to create a competition entry for the papakāinga site.

Our team sat down to have a kōrero with Symon Palmer nō Ngāi Te Rangi, a researcher on the Imagining Decolonised Cities project.

Symon Palmer: Obviously a group that participated in the competition here. How did you guys all come together to work on this project?

Jessica Hulme: So we had mutual friends.

JK v/o: That’s Jessica Hulme.

JH: I think we all heard about this separately, and then we wanted to start up a group. And then Fi's friends with Tosh who's also part of the group, and I know Jade from studying with her at Unitec, and doing Māori studio. So we all grouped together.

SP: So, between you, how would you define decolonisation? Or how did you define it in the project as a team?

JK: A big part of the way we described it in the project was around reoccupying whenua Māori as a political and decolonising act, because I suppose one of the big kaupapa for me, well, possibly my life's work actually, is around rebuilding our kāinga, you know, both in terms of socially and economically, and how we can return to the best of a land-based and interconnected, inter-dependant approach, but also taking on the best of new technology. So for me that's kind of the heart of decolonisation, because I think that means that, you know, we're able to provide for ourselves, provide for our children, and resume our roles as kaitiaki, whilst also circumventing or having an alternative to free-market capitalism, which is the dominant system of the day. And I do think it has the opportunity to be both politically and economically transformative.

Fiona Ting: I suppose in the context of the particular site that we looked at.

JK v/o: That’s Fiona Ting.

FT: Decolonisation was really about how do we enable this whānau to setup their homes in a way that's going to best serve them, and obviously there was a tension, the fact that it was a competition and we didn't have any meaningful relationships with the whānau, but I guess it was about like, what does tino rangatiratanga look like, on their land, I guess, in designing the papakāinga.

JH: It was a cool opportunity to design something, like what these guys were saying, for self-determination.

JH: I think that’s a big thing that’s been missing in, maybe like all realms of society. And this could be a good platform for Porirua in including mana whenua, as well as the community. I think engaging them, although we weren't able to actually go to them, I think it was a real cool idea that it got this real big focus, universities and people looking at it, and it really highlighted what, even like what Jade's been working on for quite a while, but then all of a sudden people are like, oh aye, actually this is insane, this is good, this is better. Like, it's grassroots up, and it's everything that we want for our people, it’s our own ideas that are best for ourselves, and going back to that.

SP: I’m just wondering what Māori values you considered in your design process?

JK: I would say that we didn't necessarily consider Māori values, I think we considered the values that that whānau was saying, well they told the researchers team in the development of that brief. So they were quite clear about the fact that, you know, whānau was very important to them, caring for each other was important to them, they had large families with lots of kids, the importance of sports, relationship with their harbour, and the ability to collect kai, the stories about their grandparents. You know, I think they kind of, well we didn't, weren't involved with that brief development process, but I think it was quite thorough, and I'm sure we would have learnt new things if we'd been able to talk to them and work with them directly. So really just tried to respond to those things, rather than applying any kind of generic Māori values.

SP: In the area, in Porirua, there’s quite a mixture of people. Obviously the project was geared towards the tangata whenua. I’m wondering if you were considering any other identities in that region as well? Incorporated in your project I mean?

FT: I think the nature of the site that we looked at, probably didn't really feel like it was high on the priority list. But, yeah, I think it's interesting, it would have been interesting, and maybe we'll soon hear the answers of how the groups that tackled the wider Porirua site incorporated or didn’t incorporate those values.

JK: So we did talk about what if we built at a higher density, and what would be the implications of that? And as we talked about it as a group, we kind of rationalised that the only way that would make sense would be if you considered the wider context, and kind of masterplanned that wider area, and looked at how that density might increase over time. And it wouldn't have made sense to do it in isolation on that site without that explanation. And so I think if you undertook that exercise that would mean kind of looking at people's comfort with density, and how cultural values and demographics might have an impact on that, perhaps.

SP: How was mana whenua catered for in your design process?

JK: Well, not really at all because it wasn't allowed by the competition. But we did allude to the process that we would look to undertake if this was being done as a real project. So yeah, we outlined that briefly in the one page text document. But as it was we didn’t have access to the key people, and all we had was the written brief provided. And yeah, I don't know, is it worth talking about what the process might be like otherwise?

SP: Sure, yeah, yeah

JK: Well I'll just talk briefly about some of the processes I use, and I'm sure others will have similar or complementary kind of methods. So a lot of the stuff in my work will involve kind of, starting with hui and just starting to build consensus around the idea of the project, it might involve hīkoi over the land, it might involve sharing stories about the whenua and the experiences on it, which can be used to produce oral histories, and cultural maps that would go alongside more conventional site analysis and inventory, and it might involve going through participatory design wānanga to talk through options and test ideas and socialise ideas, I think is a big part of it. So I quite like using kit of parts type setups, but I'm interested in how new technology could be utilised in that process as well. Although sometimes simplest is best.

FT: I think Jade outlined a lot of the different processes that you might usually use in a project like that, in real life. And you kind of alluded to like how new technologies can be utilised for kind of accelerating or helping co-design with mana whenua. One of the, I just thought I'd mention one of the projects I've been working on recently, we're working with a mana whenua group in Auckland and yeah, just using things like, we've kind of been experimenting with, when we socialise ideas, like a 3d model that they can actually like play around and use a touch screen with, and like move different elements and that's just been for like a little project, we're designing a nursery that they run. [/22.22]

SP: You’ve kind of touched on it, but just a bit more on your motivation to participate in this project.

FT: Honestly, it was probably one of the first times I’d seen something, like a public competition, or a very public project, talking about both decolonisation and what that looks like in the built form or the urban form in particular. Obviously there's lots of good work that's already happening, but, yeah, I think often there's talk in non-indigenous spaces, or like, majority non-indigenous spaces, there's talk about indigenous design or working with mana whenua, but no explicitly talking about decolonisation and what that process might look like in design. So, I was really interested to enter and work with other people who either had experience in this or were also interested.

JH: This sort of thing has always kind of interested me, but I think it wasn’t until I was doing my thesis work that was actually based in the islands. So I'm part Samoan, part Māori. But I still felt like going over there and helping with reconstruction, and seeing who was involved and the stakeholders, I still felt like the other. And I could also see the power dynamics that were happening as well, and how it wasn't quite reaching the community, or different dynamics like that. And valuing more tīkanga practice that is right for their own communities, and where they're from, yeah. Just other people coming in with their own ideas, which is more like colonisation all over again, it was a real struggle seeing that happen on the islands. So, I think that coming back here and then seeing this competition happening, it felt right, this is something that should be happening on a broader scale.

JK v/o: We asked Rebecca about the kind of entries the urban design competition attracted.

RK: We got, I think, 42 entries in the end. The other thing that we did to make it accessible was we allowed people to submit in whatever medium or mode that they wished. So we got poems, and masterplans, and haka, and waiata. We got a board game, essays, all sorts of submissions, which allowed people to submit in a way that they felt most comfortable submitting. What we got back was some really, really interesting ideas - and some quite controversial, actually - about how to decolonise the place. We got back some quite traditional ideas about almost reinstating the land to what it was, sort of redeveloping pā sites with ponga fences and that kind of thing, right through to more temporary interventions in the landscape. So not exactly built form, but little interventions that might be temporary and used to test ideas, before moving onto something a bit more permanent. One of the most controversial ideas was from an American submitter, who had looked at the demography of, the demographics of Porirua, and found that there was a high Pacific population there, and so her proposal was a series of Pasifika villages that supported a whole range of different Pasifika people. So you would have the Tuvaluan village, and the Samoan village, or whatever. And that caused a lot of controversy within the judging team. This contentious one was really tricky, because for some it felt like the role of Ngāti Toa wasn't well-articulated, their role as kaitiaki and mana whenua of this place. Whereas for others this was a forward-thinking, how do we cope with a multi-cultural society, particularly given the impact of climate change on some of the Pacific islands, which will mean a whole lot of new migration to New Zealand.

JK v/o: Our guest reporter today was Symon Palmer. Thank you to the New Zealand Center for Sustainable Cities, who hosted and recorded the seminar which we featured at the beginning of the episode.

The Imagining Decolonised Cities project is a collaboration between Ngāti Toa Rangatira and Victoria University of Wellington. You can find out more about the project at idcities.co.nz.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism: In part two of our story on the Imagining Decolonised Cities project, we talk to some of the practitioners who were involved in a day-long, free public hui held at Takapūwāhia Marae in Porirua which invited public dialogue on the question - "what is a decolonised city?"

Lena Henry: And he just said, why don't they like Māori? And he pointed up at the signs. He goes, there's no Māori words, I don't know how to read that. So, it really is apparent to a five year old, that their environment doesn't represent who they are.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak to Daniel Glenn, an architect from the Crow tribe in Montana who leads a firm based in Seattle, Washington specializing in culturally and environmentally responsive architecture and planning.

GUESTS: Daniel Glenn

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 17.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we speak to Daniel Glenn, an architect from the Crow tribe of Montana who leads a firm based in Seattle, Washington specialising in culturally and environmentally responsive architecture and planning.

JK: Do you want to start off by just telling us who you are and what you do?

Daniel Glenn: Yeah, I'm Daniel Glenn, I'm an architect based in Seattle now, originally from Montana, the Crow Reservation. Crow, we call ourselves Apsáalooke, in our language. I've really been focussing on tribal work for most parts of my career. Starting very young. My current firm, it's called 7 Directions Architects and Planners. We're a small firm, and we're working with tribes around our region in Washington, but also we have projects in California, we have a new one in Alabama. So we work in many parts of what we call Indian Country in the United States, primarily.

JK: What brings you here to Aotearoa?

DG: Well, this is my second trip. I was invited here two years ago to be part of this first Indigenous design conference. I was quite surprise actually, the first time I got the invitation. I didn't know anything about this place. I thought, the only thing I knew about New Zealand was Whale Rider, and the Māori. Which was one of kids' favourite movies, and I remember when I first met you I thought wow, you look like the girl in Whale Rider. But I thought, well that would be great, and I wasn't quite sure how they found me, but I agreed to come, and came with my partner Valerie. I was just taken by the place, and by the people, and I guess the significant thing was, when I came here I thought it would be an exciting trip, I would meet some interesting people, I would see some things, but I honestly didn't see how it would resonate directly with what I do, because it's such a different culture, a different place. And I think that's been the biggest revelation, is that the Māori are a colonised people, just like my own tribe and North American Native Americans, and First Nations peoples, and we share so many similar challenges and experiences and also, I think, opportunities, with the power of these cultures that we work within and are part of. Because of that I want to keep that relationship going, and keep that connection, and was very delighted to come back for the second annual.

JK: Yeah, I felt similarly when I saw your work, as you were talking about your process of working with communities, and the kind of things that were important to them, and the kind of buildings and environments that we're developed as a result. There's a lot of similarities with what we're trying to do and what we are doing. And so that was kind of a surprise, because again, I mean, we have the same context of colonisation, but the cultures are quite different. But it's been really affirming, I think, as we've started developing this community, and seeing the ways that we can support one another, really cool. So it's great to see you here again.

DG: Well thank you. Yeah, I would say there's more affinity, I've seen, now that I work on a Pacific coast, there's more direct affinity culturally, in some respects, with Māori, in terms of, in comparison to where I'm from, we're a buffalo people and horse people. So we don't have this strong connection to the sea, and like the whole. The Salish we're working with, they have the canoe journey and the strong connection to the canoe culture, and even the longhouse has real similar relationships to the whare here, and the way the marae is set up resonates with the communities that I'm working with. I do see some cultural parallels, but certainly very distinct in so many other ways.

JK: So I was really fortunate to come and visit you at your place last year. So we had a small group go on a bit of a study tour around Seattle and then onward to Vancouver to see Patrick, and then over to Ottawa for the symposium where we all gathered. Now when we were with you in Seattle, we had an amazing whirlwind two days, I think it was, and we saw a great many things. But I wondered if we could talk about maybe some of those projects.

DG: Yeah. Let's see, I think we started with the Puyallup, The Place of Hidden Waters. Yeah. So, it was exciting for me to be able to have visitors come all the way from New Zealand, and to bring them to that community. And when I told, talked to the tribe and said that you might be coming, they were excited about it too. And if you recall Annette Bryant, whose now a Council member of the Puyallup tribe, she was our client when we designed the building as the head of the housing authority. So she welcomed your delegation in a beautiful ceremony, which I was very happy to have that happen while you were there. Cause I always feel like we can't ever match ourselves the welcome that we receive here. But they welcomed you with song, and drums, so I'm glad that happened. And I'm glad you got to see in person, cause I'd shown the film, that certainly your viewers are welcome to see, there's this short clip of the Place of Hidden Waters, so you can actually see where we were. So I'm curious to hear your impressions in person, cause you saw it on film and then you saw it in person, what did you take away from that?

JK: Yeah so I think the way it was designed really resonated with us around how we plan our papakāinga, which usually involves housing alongside other communal facilities integrated with the landscape as well. There's the community centre at the middle, which I believe was a basketball gymnasium or something that's been extended?

DG: It was an old gymnasium that was just almost defunct, it was a concrete block structure and had been built there to serve a youth home that was on the site, for troubled youth that had been there. And then that was adjacent to 27 townhomes that were also sort of, they were still occupied and everything, but there's a lot of issues in the community with crime and with drugs, and challenges that they were facing, when we started the project. So yeah, the community's, we went through a process and one of the key questions at the beginning was, what do we do with that old gym? Do we keep it, do we take it down? And then actually what we came to, is we realised wait a minute, this is, the gym is, first of all it's a solid structure, it's large. We analysed it economically, it made sense to keep it, but also we realised that traditionally in the Salish culture, when they would expand a longhouse they just extend it longer, and make an additional space for additional families. Sometimes up to like fifth of a mile or more of longhouse. So we took that idea and expanded by extending it out and creating that, whole sort of living room, as we thought of it for the eventually 47 units that we created there.

JK: And those units, they're a mixture of different sizes?

DG: Yeah, so, the original development has two- and three- bedroom town homes, and some fours. So when we designed this, one of the needs that they had was housing for elders, seniors in the community, and so in our process that there was not a desire on the part of the elders to be isolated, like to have just elders community and then families. So, we developed this typology that kind of came about from the program, but also studying the archetype, which is what we often like to begin with, studying the tradition of the tribe, and that case the longhouse or plank house structure, which in that region was a shed, single slope roof. And when we were analysing that we realised that there was many ways that we could manipulate that structure, that form, but in section it worked to sort of get at that form, we found that if we had one side one storey, and the other side two-storey, we could create that overall concept of the longhouse. And so that gave us the opportunity on the one side to have flats that are for elders, fully accessible. And then on the other side, two storey town homes for families. So it's a mix. And then they share this long gathering space in the middle that's akin to the longhouse itself. So, historically, those structures had shared central long spaces that had fires along them, and each family had a fire in the middle, and then they had their sleeping spaces on platforms that were elevated, and they used woven mats to create privacy. So we took that idea of those sleeping spaces, and in a modern context made those into homes. So, townhouses, with the central common semi-covered open space. So, yeah, it was a mix of inter- multi-generational housing, which is something that we like to do, and it's reflecting the needs of these communities that we work with. So we ended up building, each building has ten units in it. Five elders, five families. We built two of these structures, so there's twenty altogether, and then the 27 we renovated and improved. So it's a 47 unit community, with the community centre at the heart, which includes now a refurbished gymnasium, and a gathering space. And then the other key part of it was that it's adjacent to a forest that is a slope down to the Puget Sound, because they're Salmon people and their very protective of the water. That was a big challenge of how to make this place in a way that would not disrupt the, or hurt harm the waters that were there. So, we went through a, we worked very closely with our landscape architect, and our civil engineers, to create a landscape that, all the water is dealt with through rain gardens that you saw. We walked around and took a walk through the forest. So we preserved two thirds of the site as forested land.

JK: That project, that reservation land it's in a kind of an urban area. Were there any kind of unique challenges or opportunities with being in more of an urban setting?

DG: Well, what's interesting is that the Puyallup peoples were, their homeland was essentially built on top of, by the City of Tacoma. Which is based on the word Tahoma, which the Puyallup refer to the Mount Tahoma, which is called Mt Ranier. And Mt Ranier as Tahoma is considered sort of the mother of the Puyallup people and the people of that region. So that community is, even though it's a forested setting near the water, it's actually in the suburbs of the City of Tacoma, and all the land around them is non-Native land. So what the tribe, the tribe has been buying or holding parcels, kind of scattered all over the city, and that was one of these smaller parcels. So initially when, it was interesting when we went back there, Annette Bryant was talking about how the homes, the lots across the street were empty when we built. And there was a lot of concern among the neighbourhood about that development, and they didn't. They considered it bringing down the property values for all the white families. But when we rebuilt this, and created this community, it transformed the place in many different ways. Apparently property values went way up, and so, right across the street they built new homes, and they're like half million dollar houses.

JK: Self-gentrifying by accident. Just cause the quality was too good.

DG: Well but yeah. But what's unfortunate was that the tribe, had they had the opportunity, I'm sure they would have done it, would have bought those vacant parcels, prior to the development, so that. So it's true, I mean there was some level. But the irony is, that you would never imagine that a low income Native community would be a gentrifier in any way. But it is considered beautiful by the people around it, and you know, so I guess it's had that impact.

JK: Well the next place I think we went was it Skokomish reservation?

DG: Yeah.

JK: And we went to see the new community centre that was under construction, which I hear has opened late last year.

DG: Yeah.

JK: Did you want to tell us a bit more about that project?

DG: Yeah, so another tribe in the region, this one's further South of Puget Sound, it's on the very end of, it's called the Hood Canal, it's West of Olympia in Washington. The Skokomish reservation. It's a relatively isolated community. It's a small fishing community, fishing and shellfish gathering community. And they've been doing that for thousands of years, and they're still doing it, it's still the primary income of the tribe. And it was quite a challenge initially, coming from the outside into this little community. They're very reserved, and a little understandably nervous about outsiders in general. And I'm sure you're familiar with the process of the early engagement, and getting to know everyone, and relationship building is fundamental to what we do, and having that strong connection. But it was a process we had to go through. What we initially were asked to do a masterplan, because the rivers, the Skokomish River that flows into the Sound, has been disrupted by all the development, and the way it's been affected by that, it's actually started to have quite a flooding issue. So, even though they've been in this area for a millenia, they're particular area where their homes are, and their facilities, are getting flooded on a regular basis. So a key part of the project was to move from that low land up to higher ground, and we designed a masterplan that includes a new tribal administration building, and a new clinic, and a forestry department, and their police station, and all of this. As well, at the heart of it they wanted a community centre. And so, the community centre was phase one. And as you saw, a key part of the project at the end was a strong integration of the artists. We were very excited and impressed to learn that there's so many significant and talented artists among the Skokomish people. Similar to the Māori here.

JK: It was interesting for our group, because after we went to see the building, we went and visited the carver at his whare, and in his garage which is his carving studio, there's a tino flag hanging up, and we were like, ohh, who gave you that? So, yeah, I forget who it was, but he obviously -

DG: Rangi. Rangi Kipa.

JK: Yeah! Who's here, okay.

DG: Yeah, this world is extraordinarily small. So Rangi has been, when I first came here two years ago, I realised that I met Rangi when we were on our tour around the North Island, and we went to his studio. In fact he made this for me, I forget the hook, how we say it in Māori. I got this at his studio, and we connected because he knew John Edward Smith, who we were working with already on some early concepts around the carvings that would go in that building. And so, Rangi had been there, now been there twice, as an artist in resident, working with John Smith and several other Skokomish and Salish carvers in the region, on a project. It's called the Basket House, or the Fabric Arts Studio, for Evergreen College. And we're not the architects for that, one of my Indigenous colleagues, John Paul Jones, designed that. And we visited as well, the longhouse there that he designed. And so he, it's amazing that the Basket House, it's a Māori and Salish collaboration, and it includes carvings from both traditions, and John was talking about how Rangi was teaching them all these techniques, and it's affecting his carving, and his approach.

JK: It was so amazing to hear actually, and we were like, wow, the carvers are about 8 years ahead of us. But that's alright, we'll get there.

DG: You mean in terms of collaboration?

JK: Yeah.

DG: Yeah! No, exactly. Yeah, I was astounded. And I mean that keeps happening, like we have Squaxin Island tribal member here, and it seems so far away, and yet there's all these strong connections. And I know that, what I've learned is that the Salish communities and other tribes I've worked with, the Tolowa in Northern California have been here, there's a real strong admiration and desire to learn from the Māori in our communities. Because we feel you're way ahead of the game in terms of your political power in community, and also your very strong focus on the language, and keeping the culture strong. So, for us, we come here to learn from you, and try to understand how you're doing all this. And so many tribes are doing that, not just our community.

JK: Yeah. I think it's been a really nice reciprocal process too. Because I think often there's the assumption that Māori are further ahead in a lot of things, just cause of our political status. But actually there's a lot of things where we're way behind. And so I've done a lot of work in housing, so it was really fantastic to go and see housing projects over in Canada and the US, and see that, actually, there's some really innovative models and things that are a lot better than anything we've been able to achieve yet. So, a lot to learn from each other.

DG: Well I'm really curious, I know you went out in the middle of, what I consider the middle of nowhere, in New Mexico, to see the Nageezi House, which we designed when I was at Arizona State University. I was a faculty running a centre there, a design centre. Back in 2005 we designed and built that home, as a model house. I'm really curious to hear what you thought, to go, it was quite a journey. I was impressed that you went all the way there.

JK: So we went on a wild journey, where we drove, we saw Joseph and Nathaniel and so on in Phoenix, and visited some projects, and we drove through the desert, through to Farmington. Spent the night. So I was the driver.

DG: And you went in the night?

JK: Ah no, it was all through the day.

DG: Oh wow. It's beautiful.

JK: Yeah, and we stopped in the Painted Desert, it was a beautiful road trip. And the landscape was so amazing because each time you would go a little further, and it would change quite drastically. It's nothing like what we have here. Anyway, so it was a phenomenal experience, and then we drove from Farmington to Nageezi. And went to see the whānau there, and visit them at their home. Yeah, it was amazing to be able to visit someone on Navajo Nation, and actually kind of see how they live, and spend time with the family. And so they just showed us around their house, and talked about it, and it's funny because I feel like, you get a different perspective when you just spend time with the residents of places, rather than the architects. So, they were kind of funny because they were, first they just raved about all the things they loved, and then they were quite honest about the things that didn't quite work.

DG: Oh that's so cool.

JK: Yeah, so it was really cool when, you know how there's the sort of, the courtyard.

DG: The courtyard, yeah.

JK: And he's like, oh do you want to see something cool? And he opened up all of the doors and things. Cause the cross -

DG: Yeah. Ventilation, and the light as well, we designed it that way.

JK: And then the structure, I'm sorry I'm a bit ignorant of the name, but the structure that's over the courtyard, that sort of -

DG: It's based on the hogan, which is the traditional home of the Navajo. And Mary, who you met, grew up in a Hogan right near there. It's actually her husband Kee Augustine, who sadly passed away just a few years ago, but we designed it for those two elders and their family. But they both grew up in Hogans. In fact, Kee did not speak English at all. When we were designing that project, fortunately we had Navajo students of architecture on our team. So, and I speak Spanish, and Kee speaks Spanish and Diné, but not English. So we would interact with him that way. Mary, who taught school, she speaks English as you know, talking with her. And it's delightful to me that she's still living there. I mean, that was 13 years ago now, and you know, it's heartening for us when we do this kind of work. And she's had visitors from literally all over the world, I mean you weren't the first to arrive from -

JK: No, we got that sense.

DG: Did she say that?

JK: Oh, but we were welcomed very warmly into their home.

DG: Oh, that's wonderful.

JK: Her and her son Jimmy, who's right next door.

DG. Yeah. The funniest story about that project was we designed it to be as low energy as possible, with the orientation, and passive solar, and all of that. And then we used a material called Navajo flexcrete, which was just being developed by the Navajo Nation. And I'm actually on the Board now of Navajo flexcrete, a volunteer member to help them. And that particular project was the very first Navajo flexcrete house built by the tribe.

JK: Have there been many others since then?

DG: Yeah, since then they're built hundreds of other homes. Not, unfortunately, as culturally responsive. A lot of them have been more conventional, there's been some that have had other aspects to them. But energy wise they have similar performance, quite extraordinary. It's a challenge. We've found dealing with any institution of transitioning, cause they'd always built out of stick frame, which in the desert is crazy, to build out of stick frame. It's terrible environmentally, in terms of it, it doesn't have any mass, so you can't use it for passive solar.

JK: What did they do before that?

DG: Well the home that Mary and Kee lived in was a wood frame structure. It was built in the 1960s, and it was, it had black mold in the house, it was heated by a single wood stove.

JK: Are these HUD homes?

DG: That particular one was built in the sixties with dollars from HUD and through the tribal housing authority, so we call the HUD homes.

JK: So we were saying that the homes built in the 50s and 60s.

DG: Yeah, so those were typically built in wood frame. Actually, the 60s, 70s, 80s, all the way up till now. You know, that was kind of the standard thing. And I sort of grew up in an office, we were doing work, through my father's office. And we even did work in Arizona, and so the homes at that time were, the plans and everything were essentially dictated by Washington DC, so.

JK: Standard.

DG: Yeah, the tribes had no say, and even as architects we had very little say, we had to just sort of locate them in different locations. And they were not climactically responsive, they weren't culturally responsive. That particular house by this point was in great decay. They had done a lot of additions, and there was kind of pieced together. And when the students, Navajo students of architecture, approached us, they had talked about the idea of renovating that house. We were working with a student named Christopher Billy, whose now a photographer. But he was an architecture student at that time, from that area. So he approached us, our centre, and said he was interested in us helping them out some way, and that he had a waiting list of people that needed homes. So we went and visited that site. You know, they had talked about renovating it, but we said, this is not a renovatable project. So we had to discuss the idea of tearing it down and rebuilding it on the old slab that was there. And it was interesting, the elders, the family agreed to the whole thing, but then we had to run it by the Council. Which was in the Chapter House nearby there in Nageezi, I don't know if you went to their Chapter House?

JK: We drove past it.

DG: Yeah. We presented what were were going to do, and it was really interesting because there was this sort of murmur and stuff in the crowd, and it was all in Diné, so I had no idea what they were talking about. But they seemed kind of upset, and we didn't know what was going on. And then we, you know I'm like, what's happening here? It turned out that a few years earlier, there'd been a Christian missionary group that had been working in that area, and they had volunteered to help somebody with their house, and they basically tore out a whole bunch of stuff, the kitchen and everything, and then they were going to make it all better, and improve it. They got only like half way done, and then they had to leave. Like, their time was up. And they just left. And so, this poor family was left with this kind of -

JK: Ruins of a house.

DG: Ruins of a house. So there was a lot of skepticism, and sadly in Indian Country, in our communities, that kind of thing isn't uncommon. So people are very justifiably skeptical. So I had to get up and make this whole speech about, we're with Arizona State University, and we have the backing of the University, and we would never. You know, if we tear this house down we're building you a new house, and all this stuff.

JK: Building that trust takes a little while.

DG: Yeah. It was a challenge. And so, they believed us, fortunately, and it was largely I think due, not to us but to the students that we had working with us. Because they were, had that trust, they had that connection. And so, we proceeded, and we built the home. And it was part of this larger effort to promote the use of this new material, is aerated concreted. In Europe it's very common, but very uncommon in the United States. Wood in the desert there, it gets eaten by termites, it has no benefit from a, to help the houses keep cool. So they're overheating, or your using huge amounts of air conditioning or heating. As you recall, you're at 6,000 feet on a mesa, so it snows and is very cold in the winter, and in the summer it's like hot desert, hundred degrees. So for us, when we design there, we did an energy model of the home. I was working with Ernesto Fonseca, who's a Mexican architect who at the time was a graduate student there, working for us. So his thesis was actually on that house, and he did a whole monitoring of, and analysed it, and wrote a paper on it. He's put all these sensors throughout the home for a year, and then as we built it we'd put these sensors in. And then we monitored it remotely from Phoenix. That was, oh that was what I was going to mention, was that at some point we had this big spike in energy, and we were like, what is going on there?

JK: Did you give them a call?

DG: No we actually went out there, we were like what's going on, we thought there was some problem. And it was so funny, because we get to the site, there literally was a very long extension cord, going from Mary's house to the other son, on the other side. So there's Jimmy and Kenny on either side, and they live on either side of the home, because it's their allotted land. So the family lives there. And they had, somebody hadn't paid the bill or whatever for the power, so they were using the power from that house to keep their house going.

JK: That would have thrown out your data.

DG: Yeah. But it also showed, I think, something fundamental that we learned there. I mean, first of all this beautiful, it's like a family compound. Her adult sons live on either side of her, and they have this land. And that's why I think this idea of permanence is critical, and that we design for the very long term. But also, they support each other, like you saw, they're helping Mary now as she's getting quite old. And you know, there's a very strong spiritual aspect. When we initially designed the home, talked about the hogan, and do they want just sort of a modern version of the hogan, does it make sense? They wanted a connection to the hogan, but they didn't want to go back to living in a hogan. They'd been living in a more conventional house with bedrooms, and privacy, and a different sense of. A hogan is a single circular space. It's very much like a yurt, and there's apparently some potential links to that. Cause the Navajo are actually Athabaskan. They speak the same language as the Athabaskans up in Northern Alaska. And so they have a very direct connection over the land bridge and all of that, historically. And so that language has migrated all the way down. And what's ironic is now we're working with the Tolowa in Northern California, and they also speak, they call themselves the Dee-ni', and they speak the Diné language as well, which is Athabaskan. So these connections we're constantly finding as we work with different tribes. One thing I would love to hear your thoughts on was that, part of our goal is that when we design for different tribes, is that we're designing for that tribe, for that place. And so, I'd like to hear your thoughts of how you felt comparing the two, like going among the Navajo to the Puyallup, and the different buildings and how they're designed to each. I mean, did you see that intent?

JK: Yeah, I really enjoyed getting to understand some of these more traditional typologies, and how that thinking has carried through to create contemporary models. Cause that's a real focus of my approach too, is thinking about, what is the best of how we used to live in the past, what are we hearing from the way our elders lived, what is our land telling us, and then, how can we take the best of new technology and knowledge and information to adapt to our current context to create new ways of living. And I think that those concepts are really exemplified in those projects that you've shown us.

DG: Great. I mean that's really a key thing for us, is this notion of tribal specificity, and regional specificity responding to each climate, each culture, each place, in a very distinct way. And building off of those traditions, but not being afraid at all to embrace modern technologies, like this aerated concrete, or the SIPS panels that we build the Puyallup home out of. I mean, the town homes there. Which is also part of the indigenous tradition of embracing things as they come, like the canvas, I mean from Buffalo hide, to canvas, for our tipi lodges. It's a transition that we make as we gain new access to different materials. Or going from quill work to beadwork. Cause we had quill, all the beadwork we see in North America was not traditional, it was quill work with guide quills that were woven. But when the Europeans came, we started utilising beads that we were able to get from -

JK: And acknowledging that our cultures have always been adaptive, and embracing of technology, and able to evolve, and knowing that we don't want to live in a museum piece.

DG: Exactly. That's right.

JK: Our people don't want that.

DG: Yeah. And that was very important for us to learn. We were talking to these elders, cause you know, they might have grown up in a hogan, and they love the hogan and they use the hogan now as a spiritual place. That particular family. And/or in their sheep camps. Like many Navajo have sheep camps, even the students we were working with, the Navajo students, spent their summers in the sheep camps with their grandparents. In hogans. So they're still living in them, which is beautiful, that tradition. We don't, like our tipi lodges, we only camp in them, like pow wows and gatherings, but it's not like a, it's primarily ceremonial, and it's not somewhere where you actually live. But the hogan is a living home still. But, there's also this desire to have wifi, and have all of the other things that modern living affords. But still embracing and celebrating and being strongly connected to our cultures.

JK: One final question - the theme of the podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, and the way our Indigenous communities are shaping their physical environments. So did you have any final thoughts?

DG: Well, we're actually in the process of trying to learn again from your communities, like the experience in Auckland with the Māori design principles that are being put in place there, and we're very interested in trying to bring similar approaches to decolonising our cities. In the United States, the majority now of the Native community lives in cities. Part of that was by design, in the 50s and 60s there was a whole effort to get people off the reservation and move them to cities, and so there was this big internal migration. Myself now as an urban Indian living in Seattle Washington, far from my traditional land, connecting with all these, there's many different tribes living in Seattle and places like that. So there's two things there. It's the challenge of creating places that feel like home for urban Indians, and dealing with the challenges, like homelessness which is significant, the Native community is the highest representative population of homeless in Seattle. But, also having an impact on the City as a whole, and saying, how do we demonstrate and celebrate, make a strong presence, of that Salish culture that's been there for thousands of years, and has largely been erased by the settlement process. So I think that that's something, it's a part of our job, in our own communities, is bringing that voice back to our cities, and having that presence. When I've met with the City of Seattle, and planning leadership and talked about this, it's a challenge, because planners think in numbers. Like, whoever shouts the loudest. So if you have a majority of people, that's who tends to get listened to. And we don't have those numbers. We don't have those numbers, so there's very small numbers in urban, comparatively to the larger, majority population. So what I try to talk about, is that we don't have numbers but we have centuries, and millenias of time. So, this notion of the weight of time, that presence sort of supercedes the small numbers that we currently have. And say, how can we bring the power of that ten thousand years, or 15 thousand years of presence, to the forefront in our cities. And I think it will profoundly affect not only the Indigenous communities, but for the Pākehā people in our communities. The idea that it's a wonderful thing, that they'll know that they're in a special unique place, and that's part of what gives it uniqueness, and moves beyond the sort of sameness, this kind of overriding sameness of consumer culture and colonial spaces.

JK v/o: You can find out more about Daniel’s work at 7directionsarchitects.com.

This episode was recorded on location at Nā Te Kore, the second international indigenous designers hui hosted by Ngā Aho in March 2018.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we travel to Porirua to learn about Imagining Decolonised Cities, a project designed to stimulate discussion around what our cities could look, feel, sound, taste and smell like if they were decolonised.

Rebecca Kiddle: People understand Māoriness to be a rural thing, it's not an urban thing,

it’s not something that’s relevant to the city. And that’s problematic in two ways. First of all it kind of dismisses the mana of the iwi and hapū for whom these places are theirs, so Te Atiawa, Ngāti Toa, Ngāti Whātua in Auckland, and so on. It mean that their identity aren't represented well in the built environment. And I think the second thing is really about a sort of general kind of erasure of indigeneity in the built environment.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we visit Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga to learn more about their emergency housing programmes, delivered through an innovative partnership with Emerge Aotearoa.

GUESTS: James Lyver, Jo Hoera, Chris Paku

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake: In the Hawke’s Bay, homelessness has dramatically increased over the past few years and there are large waiting lists for social housing. Like many areas throughout Aotearoa, there is simply not enough affordable housing to meet demand, and reports of overcrowding, and families living in cars have increased.

The kaupapa of Te Whare Huakina, funded by the Ministry of Social Development, is to provide emergency housing in the Hawke’s Bay area.

Jo Hoera: This is one of our typical transitional homes provided for whānau. So, we're just walking into the front of the property. It's got a wee space in the front, a grass area. And then we're going to go into the front door, and straight into the Kitchen area.

JH: Of course we have an oven, we have a pantry, a fridge, and we’ve got all the amenities that you need in the kitchen itself, so, we've got all the crockery that you need, whānau need. We've got all the utensils whānau need, we've got oven trays, we've got a toaster, we've got the jug, we've got pots, we've got pans. So when whānau come into the transitional home, the kitchen is all set to go for them. And so you’ve got a back door entrance as well, and in our back door entrance we've also got safety, so we've got a fence right round the property, this particular property, so that we can safely have children here. We've got some fruit trees, and of course the line outside. Then we have the amenities, got the toilet. We have a bathroom, so we have a shower. Most of the properties have a shower and a bath, because we allow for children, of course, and sometimes they're under one, or where they need a bath to be used. And in this particular house we've got two bedrooms, so the bedrooms are already set up with the beds. So we’ve got pretty much all the amenities that a whānau would need moving into a home. It's all set up with everything, including the washing machine, and we have everything that you would need, like mops and brooms. So, our tenancy manager would go through and make sure that all that's ticked off, the list that they need when they come into a home, including all your blankets, your linen, your towels, it’s all here. So the whānau are in here for 90 days, and they sign their tenancy for 30 days at a time, and so within that period our tenancy manager comes in and does inspections with the property, and renews the tenancy over that 90 day period.

JK: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 16.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we visit Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga to learn more about their emergency housing programmes, delivered through an innovative partnership with Emerge Aotearoa.

We met up with Jo Hoera and Chris Paku from Emerge Aotearoa, at one of Te Whare Huakina’s emergency houses in Napier. Jo is the Team Leader for the Emergency Housing Team within Emerge Aotearoa, and Chris is one of the the Navigators in her team.

JH: Ko Jo Hoera taku ingoa, ko Rangitane me Te Atihaunui-a-paparangi ōku iwi. I'm the Team Leader for Emerge Aotearoa, for the Emergency Housing team. Based in Hastings, and we work collaboratively with Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga.

Chris Paku: Ko Chris Paku tōku ingoa. I work for Emerge Aotearoa as well, as a Navigator, and part of my role is to help our whānau in our area to find sustainable housing.

JH: Te Whare Huakina came about through, I guess looking at the strength that both organisations have, and coming to an understanding that we both offer different strengths, and that's how we pretty much based ourselves together, but it works. It works really, really well. The team themselves, from Emerge Aotearoa's side, and our team, I can speak for our team, it's pretty awesome to be working inside of a kaupapa Māori service, and supporting whānau in our community to find long-term sustainable housing. We are one team, so we provide the emergency housing service together. So, it's pretty awesome actually. We're unique in the whole of the country, I believe we're the only service that runs that way, with two NGOs working side-by-side. My main role, I guess, is to make sure the service is running okay. The other thing is to, more importantly, is to support my Navigators that are out working out in the field. That might be in terms of making sure they've got the resources they need, training, whether they need upskilling or sending them away to our training, or running the mechanics at the base, really. So, yeah. But, I must say, I have an awesome team, that are out there working in the Hawke's Bay, they work fairly independently, and they are passionate for the kaupapa. And so am I. I've worked quite a while, a few years working with clients, and so I love to see them doing well, especially whānau.

CP: And as a Navigator for Emerge Aotearoa, that's a role that I take really seriously, and using a lot of my background and the experience that I've had over the last 10-15 years, to see how I can help our people that are in the motels, or in the transitional homes that we have, to help them to look for sustainable homes, a sustainable home. And part of that service that we have is, also helping them to identify other wrap-around services that we can introduce them to, if they haven't been introduced to in the past. For example, we have a ready-to-rent programme that runs at the taiwhenua and also in Napier, and we also have Money Mates, which is part of the Hawke's Bay budgeting service. So all these little factors really play an important part to our families lives. So, that's what I do as a Navigator here in Hawke's Bay, along with the other two Navigators, Kate and Manuel.

JK: Can you tell me what kind of difference it makes for these whānau to have somewhere stable to live for that period of twelve weeks, and to have a bit of awhi and a bit of support around them?

CP: It makes a huge difference, because there's a huge difference especially when they have to come into the motels, they don't have to go and get their weekly quotes to stay in this motel that they're in, if they're with us. It means that they don't have to that side of things. However, there is the other side, their obligations that they have to adhere to. To continue to search themselves to look for a home, and if they do find something, then we're there to either take them along to have a look at a home viewing, in the private rental sector, or we're there to help them or awhi them considering their Housing New Zealand applications, the assessment that they may have already done with MSD housing line, on the 0800 line there, or the interviews that may take place there. But, in saying that, just knowing that they've got support in place, really helps our families. They feel encouraged, I think they do, yeah.

JK: Need to stabilise their living circumstances, and then empower them so they can make positive choices.

CP: Very much so, and that’s what it’s all about, is that empowerment, and the services that we have to embrace them with.

JH: We’re a mainstream organisation on the whole, but we have a strong connection to kaupapa Māori practice. So there's a component of our services, that adhere to kaupapa Māori. So it's part and parcel of some of our principles, the organisation itself. So we have a cultural arm, and a training that's provided for practicing with kaupapa Māori values. So, that's our takarangi programme, that all our staff get to go on, yeah, and train with. So, yeah, in terms of that, but our housing team of course, is, we're right in the midst of it with Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga.

JK: It must be awesome working with whānau and just seeing their journey that they're on, particularly when you get to the point where they're seeing better outcomes for their family.

CP: Oh, it's awesome. I love it. You know, especially when you've seen families stuck in the motels for certain periods of time, and as one of our kaumātua mentioned from the Heretaunga Te Taiwhenua, says that the person was very happy just to cook a meal on an oven. So I mean, they've been trapped in these places for that time, and now they've found a home for them to stay in, and just to cook a meal for the family, the basic necessities of life, meant a lot to him. So, even that, and just hearing those things is really cool. At the end of the day, we’ve still got to be positive, this is the roles that we're in and the job that we have, to have that positive attitude so that they can see that in us, and so that, you know, we don’t want to give up on them.

JK: James Lyver, nō Kauhngungu, is the Contracts and Business Development Manager at Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga. We met James outside a new 10-unit development in Maraenui, a neighbourhood in Napier that has traditionally been characterised by its high concentration of State housing.

James Lyver: This particular project here was a Housing New Zealand initiative, and what's really exciting about this is they really looked at the waiting list, and knowing that we had some of the hardest people to house, are your individuals or your solo parents with one child. Because they're such a low ranking with Housing New Zealand, and there's just no one beddies in Hawke's Bay. So this was a really good initiative to show, and we've got demand already, and we're moving whānau on. So what's exciting about this is that we looked at the research, we were able to build to it, and then we were able to provide our wrap-around Te Whare Huakina services to this area to a vulnerable community, or a segment of our community. And that's pretty exciting, about what they are. And they look beautiful. They're a beautiful place. So there's ten, ten one beddies, 54-56 square metres. And that's cool. Because they're a large space, and in a communal environment where they're starting to kōrero together. So we're starting to do some clever things, so we're going to put a barbeque table out here, a bit of a gazebo, and maybe a kids playground, but we're still yet to sort that one out. Yeah, really cool community, high vulnerable needs, looked at the numbers and it made sense.

JK: The 10-unit development is the latest project to be delivered by Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga in partnership with Emerge Aotearoa.

JL: So the name Te Whare Huakina came from our pou tikanga, and it's around that kupu mātua huakina, and that whakataukī, huakina te tatou o te whare, open the door to the house. And for us, it wasn't really about te whare huakina being a physical, one physical location or a house, it's around a philosophy of working, and it's really about huakina te tatou o te whare, opening the door of the house, opening the door to a warm, dry and safe home, but really about opening the door to a better opportunity for whānau, and helping them forward. And that’s the exciting part, is that we've been given the chance to help whānau at a really vulnerable time in their life, to get ahead, and that's the exciting part I think. And the warm dry home, and having a beautiful whare, and those things, it's fantastic and it's absolutely essential, but I think it's secondary to a navigator, and having a social support, and seeing the difference that they can make, and help whānau articulate. Quite a hard world to go into, to WINZ and MSD, Housing New Zealand, health providers and other sort of agencies, it's a hard world to work in, and our whānau, having someone to go along with them to support them side-by-side, we're noticing that's, that's the major play. The whare really is just the vehicle for us to be able to engage, and that's exciting for us. Building a house is cool, and without whakaiti-ng it, it's easy. It's really simple to build a house. These were built in six week, at a fairly significant money, but not insurmountable. But it'd be hopeless without the navigators, and the social support. I reckon the social support's crucial, cause then let's move them on to their own houses. And we just haven't seen that social support like we've done, and I think that's what's exciting about emergency housing, which is quite different to social housing settings, is that we're finally being recognised for the social support. That we've all been doing for years and years, but finally we've been actually picked up for something. Sure, it could always be more, but at least it's something and it's a nod towards it, and a nod for tenancy management. Some really good examples, I think of three right off the bat. We had three different whānau coming into Te Whare Huakina, one dad come in, a dad and a 16 year old boy, and they come into a house and his boy had respiratory diseases, and he'd been really suffering with asthma. And he came into this whare, and what he saw, is he saw the HRV, the air filter, he saw the heat pump and stuff like that, and for him he was like really excited to get through winter and have his boy not presenting as much at A&E. And what was really cool, was that after being in the house a month, he was able to attend rugby practice. He was in the second 15 and he managed to sit on the bench for the first 15, and then that's when they won the nationals last year. So this boy was able to attend practice, go along, have the opportunity to then play for the firsts, and just have a better outlook. So for that dad it was about the HRV and having a warm dry home. And the other example I think of, which is similar, it's another dad and he had five kids under five. Five kids under five, he lived in a motel, and it didn't have a kitchen. Five kids under five, he was living in this motel three months, no kitchen. He moved into a house, and it's a beautiful house, like a really beautiful house. It's our best home, a very, very large three-bedroom home, big backyard, in a really, really nice part of Napier. And what got us for him, is he walked into the house, and the first thing he looked for, was he looked for the stove. And he looked in, and he saw the pots and pans, and for him, all he wanted to do was cook his family a Sunday meal. And he was actually a chef, a cook, when he was a young fella. So for him, kai was important, and sitting around the table. So for him, the room, the neighbourhood was really fancy, but he wanted the kai. And think that's, they're the sort of stories that we're hearing and coming out. And then the third one is straight out of a motel. This one's exciting, cause a mummy was living in a motel for around a year, waiting for a house to come up, and she was on the waitlist. And sure enough, but what she didn't realise, was that she had some unfulfilled obligations with housing. So we got with her, whanaungatanga, catched up with her, really built some trust, and then we supported her with getting her housing application re-assessed. We pretty quickly realised that she had some obligations that she needed to do, and she had to present some evidence. So, and we went away, it took about a week to get that stuff. We called back, re-submitted it. Her housing criteria went from a low A to a high A, like A-15, A-16, and then she got a call like three days later and got a home. So, she'd been living in a motel, unfulfilled obligations, we met with her and within three weeks we'd supported her to just find a home. And that's not any magic bullet, or we're not pulling any fantastic things out, it's just a very normal process. Housing application, Housing New Zealand home, but just her walking along. And we’re having those stories often, and frequent, so.

JK: And taking the time to get to know these whānau and understand their needs and priorities.

JL: For sure, and I think that's where Te Whare Huakina works in a whānau ora way, where we're trying to get together, and first things first is to know your name, sit down with you, understand your whānau, have a cup of tea, relax and settle. Mihi whakatau, if they want it, and sometimes it's not appropriate. I mean just settle in, and then after a couple of weeks, then go and write a plan, then go and figure out what we need to do, go and do the steps that you need to do to get yourself along, with still aspirations. So in your whānau ora plan, it might be about getting a house, but really it's about moving on to getting something better. Because soon as they've got their home, what's next, what's next, what's next? So our housing navigators, our social workers, are just fantastic in the way they work with our whānau in emergency housing.

JK: Awesome. Now I'm wondering, like you said earlier that, you know, the emergency housing is important, but it's not the end game. So where do you see this kind of fitting in to the bigger picture?

JL: For Taiwhenua o Heretaunga and Emerge Aotearoa, it's a great first step. For Taiwhenua we're wanting to build our presence in social housing, and it's one of the pou of the Board, for us to move forward. And I think this is the first, a really really good step for us, to learn some internal capacity, and get some skills, and build our infrastructure so that we're able to progress on and do things at a larger scale. Going from a couple of social homes, or a couple of social places, to much larger in the hundreds is a, could be a step too far. So this is a really good chance for us to build internal capacity internally. So that's us, internally, looking in. So if we look out the window, I think there's probably a chance for us to use our networking internally in Hawke's Bay, to look at understanding whether the housing stock is better, and more intimately on a more street by street nature. So we can understand where whānau fit in best, who those whānau are, who those whānau are. And we’ve got aspirations for building as well, that’s further along the continuum I guess.

JK: How did this partnership with Emerge come about?

JL: So Te Whare Huakina is fantastic. So we applied through the normal ITP that MSD put out for emergency housing. And we were really focussed on vulnerable teenage mums. So we have the second highest Māori pregnancy rate in the country, and then we have really high homelessness rate with our young parents and in our NEET, in our rangatahi space. So we really identified that as being a high priority. Concurrently, while that's happening, like all good relationships our CE met up with a Board member of Emerge, in the Koru Lounge, where all good relationships start, and as they got going and they got talking, we saw their was some real alignments there. So we stepped down a level, and then I started talking with their team, and we said actually, there's some real benefits and strengths that we can each bring. We identified some areas that we need to improve on at Taiwhenua, and I think Emerge identified some areas that they perhaps needed some help. So it was a really good synergy for us to both leverage each other's strength, and then come together in quite a unique arrangement, where Taiwhenua are the lead contract holders, and then we subcontract off Napier Properties for Emerge. And it's worked, and it's working really, really well, and we're able to work together as a team, so look at the bigger picture.

JK: When I was speaking to Jo earlier, I asked you know, is Emerge a kaupapa Māori organisation, and she's like, well, no it's not, but a lot of, you know, we bring a lot of that with us into the organisation as staff, and also just the way of working is informed by that a lot. But she said it's a bit different working with Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga, because they rely more heavily on the Taiwhenua's way of doing things. So, can you talk a little bit more about how that works.

JL: Yeah, so Taiwhenua is definitely a kaupapa Māori organisation, instilled and ingrained from right back, 32 years ago. And we've adopted all of those moteatea, whakataukī, to bring it in. But really, it's driven from our core values, so whanaungatanga, kaitiakitanga, kotahitanga, and whakamana. Is used as, not only values but sort of guiding pou. So, when we're getting together, is that going to align with it? And that's almost a decision-making tool.

JK: Bringing yourself back.

JL: Bringing yourself back, and if it can hit one, that's okay. If you can hit two values, that's good. But really you should be trying to hit all four, all the time, and that keeps you authentic and keeps you in check really. So it's a really a traffic light, a guiding pou for us in the way we work. And in that, kaupapa Māori is lived in an authentic way. And sure, we need to keep progressing and upgrading and upskilling ourselves, and I think perhaps that's where we're, we provide a uniqueness to the housing crisis here in Hawke's Bay, is through our kaupapa Māori values.

JK: Now the other thing I wanted to ask about, before you were saying, you know, how are we pre-empting some changes that are coming, how are we looking towards the future, what could we be doing differently?

JL: What a fascinating discussion today, the day that Minister Twyford released the report, in and around about how we look at future proofing. Because let's be honest, emergency housing's fantastic, it's happening right now, but perhaps it's not the full-time solution, and I think we can all agree with that. But what it's really surprising - not surprising, but what's fascinating for me, is that, are we having those higher level discussions around, are we ready for a changing demographic. Are we ready to start looking at an ageing, healthier, wealthier population than we've ever seen. Hawke's Bay has got the third oldest population in the country, with a median Māori population. How are we having those conversations? By 2030 we're going to have ethnic Asian population outnumbering our Pasifika population. We're going to have Māori with a new identity. How's the new kiwi going to look, and are we positioning ourselves as taiwhenua, and are we positioning ourselves as whānau ora providers, to a new looking rangatahi, to a new looking environment. And not only in how the whānau look, because those rangatahi in 13 years aren't going to be migrants, they're going to be children of migrants who are marrying into kaupapa Māori whānau, and they're children are going to have whakapapa lines. So are we set, are we ready, are we mature enough to have those conversations. And that's fascinating, but it's also the vehicle to talk about other things. Are we thinking, even in design, so that's around whānau, but are we talking in design. Meth's a good one, are we positioned to handle meth, rather than a stick mentality, are we using carrots to be proactive before meth. So we, five years ago, warm, dry and condensation free was the be all and catch all of everything. But that's normal now, and should be normal, it should be absolutely normal. About insulation discussions and smoke alarms. And we're beyond that, we're way beyond that. We should be having pro-meth discussions, and pro-domestic violence discussions, and employment discussions at a high level, and I don't know, I'm optimistic we are, but let's have this discussion more and more, and let's keep thrashing it out, by using kaupapa Māori philosophies in a current mechanisms, like emergency housing, which is already here for everyone to take now and build on it to grow your capacity I reckon.

JK: What would you do different in the design?

JL: So in physical design, there's some clever things you can do with high affinity areas, easier areas that you can clean, more open planning and fence design. Quite quickly we're always looking at gated communities with cameras, are there other ways that we can use and instil more mixed tenure, so that we're getting more community building. That's probably something in some design stuff that we’re noticing.

JK: Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we speak with Daniel Glenn, an architect from the Crow tribe of Montana who leads a firm based in Seattle, Washington specialising in culturally and environmentally responsive architecture and planning.

Daniel Glenn: We don't have those numbers, so there's very small numbers in urban, comparatively to the larger, majority population. So what I try to talk about, is that we don't have numbers but we have centuries, and millenias of time. So, this notion of the weight of time, and that presence sort of supercedes the small numbers that we currently have. And say how can we bring the power of that ten thousand years, or 15 thousand years of presence, to the forefront in our cities.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we continue our haerenga across the Hawke’s Bay to visit a new five house papakāinga development, on the hills of beautiful Waimārama, which for the Renata whānau has been an opportunity to get back to their tūrangawaewae, and to reconnect with their marae and each other.

GUESTS: Paora Sheeran, Eru Smith, Brenda Tatere

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake: Picturesque Waimārama. A beautiful seaside community, a place of halcyon summer days, hot chips and ice cream. But it’s not just a lovely holiday destination, it’s also the home of the Ngāti Hikatoa, Ngāti Kurukuru, Ngāti Urakiterangi, and Ngāti Whakaiti hapū of Kahungungu.

In the 1860s the original Waimārama Block, some 35,000 acres, was leased to two European farmers. The promotion and development of Waimārama as a beach lifestyle area started in the early 1900s, when the large farming stations were broken up to create a beach settlement area. Today, the parts of the original Waimārama block that have been retained in Māori ownership are mostly leased out to Pākehā farmers.

For the Renata whānau, the development of papakāinga on their ancestral land is an opportunity to get back to their tūrangawaewae, and to connect with their marae and wider whānau.

Paora Sheeran: If we look over to the right over here, we’ve got a homeowner who moved over from Dannevirke - and I don't know if you remember on the opening day here back in March 2017, and our kaumātua got up and spoke and said that we've been able to return home, you know, so after about I think it was three generations ago, it might have even been four, they had to move away for farming reasons, and now one of the great-great-mokopuna has come back to Waimārama. And not only for her, with that brings back the other whānau.

JK: That's huge.

PS: Yeah, and that's what can happen in papakāinga. There's the hard items, like the houses, the infrastructure, and then there's also the add-on cultural, social benefits.

JK: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 15.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism: We travel to Heretaunga to visit a new five house papakāinga development, on the hills of beautiful Waimārama. We spoke with Paora Sheeran, a key driver of papakāinga activity in the Hawke’s Bay.

PS: He mihi poto tenei kia a koutou, ko taimai ki Kahungungu nei, otira nō ki Waimārama te whenua nei, tenei whenua o te papakāinga o te whānau Renata, koira te tino tīpuna Renata. Nā reira nau mai. Nau mai haere mai, nau mai hoki mai. Ko wai tenei? Ko Takitimu te waka, ko Ngāti Kahungunu me Ngāti Pahauwera ngā iwi. Ko Rakau Tatahi me Te Rongo a Tahu ngā marae. Ko Ruahine te pai maunga. Ko Te Rangi Tapu Owhata te taumata. Ko Whatumā te waiu. Nā reira, titahi whakatau ki o tou matou nei rohe. Ko Puara kei runga, ko Whatumā kei raro. Tihei, mauri ora. Ko Paul Sheeran tōku ingoa. So we’re in Waimārama, which is in Hawke's Bay, Kahungunu. As you can see it's coastal, we're right on the beach there. This is the Waimārama 3A1C2 Incorporation, and this is their papakāinga.

JK: So we’re up on the hill, overlooking the Ocean. Is that their marae down there?

PS: Yes, we've got the marae in the background there. So that was part of the reason why this was such a great site, because the incorporation actually owns a number of lands. And so with the marae just across the road, papakāinga, I think there's a kohanga reo over at the marae as well. So it just, you know, the infrastructure works.

JK: And how many acres or hectares?

PS: Probably looking at 7 hectares for this block.

JK: So the incorporation owns this block as well?

PS: Correct. And then they have a number of other blocks they lease out as well.

JK: Awesome. What are the kind of business things they've got?

PS: Mainly leasing for grazing. As with a lot of Māori freehold land, quite often they’re uneconomic parcels. So, unless you can pull together whānau land around you, or work it a bit more intensely, then you're really just leasing out to the local farmer.

But they chose this site because of the location with the marae, with the Waimārama township as well. Cause of the contours as well. You know, it's got a lot of character, this whenua. When the houses were designed, every kitchen window looks out at Motu-o-kura, which is their maunga, you know, their motu. So that was one of the design features that was sort of incorporated in the house design. So then when all the tamariki are doing the dishes they can talk about their motu. It was a good site. They’ve actually got resource consent to build 20 homes up here, and down on the flats, down below. So this is stage one, and stage one included five houses, so infrastructure for five houses, of which it's a mixed model, ownership. So we've got two home ownership here, and three affordable rentals under the incorporation. And the reason why they started off with five is because when they go back through their whakapapa, there's really five whānau lines. So although they've got a resource consent for 20, they started off with the five so then they could offer each line a house back on their whenua Māori.

PS: So Eru, Eru Smith is the chairperson of the incorporation, he's a kaumātua, well respected kaumātua out here, a man who is well known for getting things done. It's that generation, you know. The phone goes on a Sunday evening, very few words. Kia ora - is this Paul Sheeran? Yes, kia ora. Eru Smith, I hear you do papakāinga. Yes. Good - we want you to help us.

JK: Māori Television’s Te Kaea interviewed Eru Smith at the opening of the papakāinga in March 2017

Eru Smith: It feels great, I feel very proud I suppose. But ah, yeah I'm lucky that I live here too, and my family's from here. But yeah I do, I feel real proud. Out here you could pay anywhere up to $350 a week. So, you know, it's pretty reasonable for living here. And the if you go into the holiday makers they pay up to $1500 a night.

Being back home and being back where you belong I think is one of the main things, but, also that we can support our marae. By being here, so you know, it’s easier to go down and help when help is needed.

JK: And now back to Paora

PS: And so that was in early 2016, we were able to secure feasibility study funding from TPK. As most Māori land is, rural, off-the grid, the only bit of infrastructure that is out here is the water pipe that runs from the reservoir up on the hill out to the beachfront community, the million dollar houses. Not a lot of whānau Māori in those houses. So, we have on site sewerage, we upgraded the power, telecom, a lot of earthworks had to happen here. But yeah, through the TPK grant, it was all possible.

So you’ll notice on the rental properties, so there's two home ownership, three rentals. So we were able to secure some funding to instal the solar panels on the rental properties. It is tied to the grid, so i.e. when you're producing and you're using, that's one for one, that's the savings. But if you're not, if you're producing more than you're using then the excess gets exported back to the grid.

JK: Is it a microgrid at a papakāinga scale, or is it just on the individual?

PS: Individual. So, individual, because each whānau have different levels of power consciousness, if you know what I mean. And so, one whānau might be, they might set all their appliances to go during the day, so that when the sun's at its best and its producing then they're really making the savings. That's something that we try and do on handover, when the whānau takeover, is that we get the solar guy in, and just sort of talk about ways of maximising the savings.

JK: But changing behaviours can be challenging if whānau have never lived in a solar powered home before, for example.

PS: Exactly. And even with living off the grid, like on a water supply, you know, so, you've got to really be conscious of, it's not like in town where you can just turn the tap on and there's water, you know we've got three 25,000 litre tanks here. Goes through a UV filtration system pumped into the houses. But you've still got to be conscious of, in saving water. But you know, you live rural, you just got to be aware of all that.

JK: Yeah actually where I grew up, it was, we were totally off-grid, so we had solar power, and composting toilet, and drew our own rainwater. But it's amazing how those behaviours can be so ingrained, but then the moment you move into town, your behaviour changes a lot.

PS: We're doing another project, on a coastal block of land, and that's been a big part of the conversation throughout the process, is that the whānau coming out, because there are beach units there already, and they always run out of water. So, you imagine taking a whānau from in town out there, used to the constant water flow. So there's got to be a mind change. First home ownership, this house behind us, just gives people the opportunity to move back onto their whenua, close to their marae, in a whanau environment. You'll see down here the communal area that they're sort of slowly developing, which is sort of like the epicentre of most papakāinga, you know, where everyone congregates. But I'd imagine that a lot happens up on these types of levels too.

JK: And are there many kids in this papakāinga?

PS: Yeah. Yeah, there are actually, yeah. So down here, this whānau here moved back from Auckland. You know, house costs up there, rental and the ownership, so they've moved back home. So they've got three lovely little children over here. We've got two boys, young boys probably sort of 12, 13, that live over here. So, Brenda provide an at-home childcare service. So that's great, so she’s able to live on her papakāinga and also get an income from it.

JK: We spoke with Brenda Tatere, a whānau member who has moved home to her papakāinga.

JK: How how long have you been living here on the papakāinga?

Brenda Tatere: I moved here in May 2017. I'm a single mum with two boys. I don't know how many years ago my koro was whangai-ed out. My koro's from here. And he was whangai-ed out of the whānau down to the Wairarapa, and I'm probably the first one to move back since then.

JK: Oh wow, in all that time.

BT: Yeah, so I was raised in Dannevirke. We were fortunate enough that our koro's siblings or whoever took care of his shares in the lands kept them in his name. Yeah that's how we got to be here. And this idea of the papakāinga came up, and I put up my hand to build our family one. So, the five houses here represent the five whānau, under the Renata name. My koro was Richard Renata. Yeah, and that's why I'm back here, is to find out who I am. I know my whangai-ed side, but I don't know our blood line. And I brought my two sons back here for them to learn who they are.

JK: What's it been like, getting to know your family?

BT: It's been awesome. Funnily enough with these two brothers here, in that house and that house, I actually met their father, many years ago. I worked for Māori Affairs in Hastings, and I had no idea that we were related.

JK: Oh, you didn't know that was your whānau?

BT: No, I met their father, he suddenly passed. I went to his tangi, I still had no idea.

JK: Even though you are very closely related? You just didn't know?

BT: Like I said, no-one had come back since our koro had been taken away, no-one had ever been back. So, my dad slowly started coming back, being on different committees. Yeah, and then I joined the committee that's connected with this papakāinga, and yeah, that's how I came to be, really.

JK: So the five whānau lines, are they at your grandfather's level? Or the next one up?

BT: No, grandfather. So it's my grandfather and his four siblings.

JK: Ah, okay. And was he the only one that was whangai?

BT: Yes.

JK: Oh, right. Oh wow.

BT: He was whangai-ed out, yeah.

JK: And so amongst your aunties and uncles and siblings, did you go through a process of saying, well, this is coming up, who wants to, or, how did you decide who was going to be in this home?

BT: Yeah we had our meeting, and we decided we were going to build the five homes, related to the five siblings, and my koro, his offspring was only my dad, and his sister. He only had the two children, cause he died quite early. And no-one else sort of showed an interest. My first idea was for us, both families, to build a beach bach, that we could come and go. And then nobody wanted to do that.

JK: So here you are resuming the ahi kā

BT: Yeah, so I sold my house I had down home, and I got a mortgage on this.

JK: Actually, I had a similar story with my own self, because my grandfather is from Whangarei, but he was the one that moved away. And I'm the first one in my line to move home. And actually, I'm the only one in the country. The rest are in Australia. BT: Oh wow. JK: But I hope that, because I'm there, more of them might be able to come and connect. Because I was fortunate that my grandfather took me home. So his older sister, and the matriarch of our family. So thankfully, he made it that I had that connection with her too. But not all my cousin's and things have that. So It’s a big thing to be the one person who's holding that space.

BT: In all honesty, between the two families, I'm the baby.

JK: Oh wow

BT: In house number 5, my cousin, Doc Emery, which is my dad's sister's son, he's only just moved back from Singapore.

JK: Wow, so it's bringing everyone in from the four winds, back home to Waimārama.

BT: Yeah, so we're the same line, so yeah from our koro back, yeah. I mean, he was born here, and then automatically, or pretty much straight away, given to the whānau that needed him.

JK: Was the youngest or is he somewhere in the middle?

BT: I don't know.

JK: Cause a lot of families it'll be the youngest, but sometimes it's just one at a random point and for whatever reason.

BT: It used the be the eldest too.

JK: Well that too. Give it up to the nannies or something.

BT: I think, I've actually got a funny feeling koro was two. Number two. So the first one could have been a girl. Yeah, so he was the first born boy, given to a family down in, like I said, in the Wairarapa, at Hamoa.

JK: And your marae just down there, isn't that great?

BT: It is. Apparently I've been informed we have the first Monday of the month is kapa haka.

JK: If you live too close to the marae, they just tell you when you're coming.

BT: Nobody told me last Monday. No and it's good, it's going to be even better, like doing things like that, because there's still a lot more whānau that I don't know about.

JK: So for those bigger gatherings, or bigger things, each time you just get to know more, and figure out how you fit in. Beautiful. Now Paora was saying before that you run daycare or childcare at home?

BT: I do home-based childcare, and I also am a caregiver for Oranga Tamariki. So yeah, I get kept busy.

JK: And the cool thing is that you can do all this and stay on your papakāinga. And good environment for kids.

BT: It is, yeah. I believe so. Fresh air.

JK: Now, you’ve got two boys. How old are they?

BT: 14, and 11.

JK: Wow, and so how was the move for them?

BT: It was good, because they were still young enough to be excited. So, yeah, like my youngest spent last year at Waimārama School, and thought it was great. Absolutely loved it, and he's just started at Havelock Intermediate this year. Another new lot of children to meet sort of thing, and he's really excited.

JK: He gets to grow up around his cousins.

BT: Yeah, it's quite funny, because they like calling different ones uncle, and now he goes, but is he my real uncle? I'll go, yes.

JK: How are we related?

BT: Yes honey. Well how are we related? Well he's my cousin, so yeah he's like your uncle. And yeah, it's quite good that he's, being 11, is interested in wanting to know who he is. Is that one a real Uncle or not, or cousin or yeah, and how?

JK: Maybe at the age where you start to become really aware of yourself and where you fit in and wanting to understand. Oh beautiful, it's so wonderful that you're able to provide that for them.

BT: Yeah, it's really fortunate that I'm able to. And I’m grateful that we can do this, that I could do this, real grateful.

Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we visit Te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga to learn more about their emergency housing programmes, and their innovative partnership with Emerge Aotearoa.

James Lyver: It’s really about Huakina te tatou o te whare, opening the door to the house, opening the door to a warm, dry and safe home, but really about opening the door to a better opportunity for whānau. And we’ve been given a chance to help whānau at a really vulnerable time in their life, to get ahead, and that's the exciting part I think.

EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we visit the site of a whānau papakāinga in Waiohiki, south of Taradale in the Hawke’s Bay, where the Hawaikirangi whānau of Ngāti Pārau are in the process of erecting a 5-dwelling development on their ancestral land.

GUESTS: Paora Sheeran, Hinewai Hawaikirangi

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Jade Kake: It’s a clear day in Waiohiki, just south of Taradale in the Hawke’s Bay. Otatara Pā looms in the distance, holding a commanding position on a nearby hill. Waiohiki Marae is just down the road, and Tutaekuri the awa meanders between the pā and the marae.

Paora Sheeran: Kia ora, kia ora koutou, nau mai hoki mai ki Kahungungu, nau mai haere mai. O te rā ngā ki Waiohiki nei, ki tenei papakāinga o te whānau Rapihana Hawaikirangi. He whenua Māori tenei, he whenua mai mai. Nā reira, ko i riro ai te whānau nei te whenua, i te wā o rātou tīpuna. Ko mau rātou i te whenua nei. Nā reira, he taonga. He taonga te whenua nei mō te whānau. Nā reira, harikoa te ngākau, harikoa rātou ngākau. I hunga ai i tenei papakāinga, i runga anō i tenei whenua, tuku nei iho, i o rātou nā tīpuna. Nā reira ko te ingoa te whenua nei, ko Waiohiki. Nō reira tenei te mihi ki a koutou, puti puti huri noa i te motu. Nau mai, nau mai, nau mai. So Otatara is the Pā, so that was part of why they wanted to move here, so that they could be close to their maunga, their awa. Tutaekuri te awa, and of course the marae just over the road about 50 metres is their marae, Waiohiki Marae.

JK: Tēnā koutou katoa

Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 14.

I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.

On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we visit the site of a whānau papakāinga in Waiohiki, south of Tarradale in the Hawke’s Bay, where the Hawaikirangi whānau of Ngāti Pārau are in the process of erecting a 5-dwelling development on their ancestral land.

We spoke with Paora Sheeran, nō Kahungungu, a key driver of papakāinga activity in the Hawke’s Bay, and the project manager for this papakāinga.

PS: We met with the whānau, probably in February 2017, here, on the side of Hatas lane over there. This was obviously just grass, at the time. And they had aspirations to build a papakāinga on their ancestral land. And so we met, we talked about the process, and very quickly we ran a feasibility study process to get from aspiration to a fully costed out project which includes five houses, all of the infrastructure, sewerage, water, upgrade the power, telecom, stormwater, new access way, landscaping, and all of that. So as you can see today, there's three of the houses are standing, closed in, and at a point of the building stage. Stage one's going to be around putting the infrastructure for the five houses in, but building three homes. So TPK approved funding for infrastructure for five homes, and a percentage to assist towards building three rental, affordable rental properties. The other two properties are, they're going to be home ownership. So whether that's home ownership under the trust, or whether that's home ownership in individual whānau. The houses consist of, so we've got two three-bedroom homes, and that's for Hinewai and her whānau. Her brother TK and his whānau, and then the middle house is for their mum, Karen. And so the houses are, the land is put into a whānau trust, and the whānau trust is the one who applied for the funding, and will own and administer the housing on behalf of the whānau. Cause they've got two sisters who are doing university degrees in Wellington, and that was the idea, was when they eventually come back, they will move to the papakāinga as well. So they don't know if it's going to be individual home ownership, or whether the trust will take on that as well.

JK: Oh okay, so Hinewai and her brother both have young families, and they've got two sisters who are studying. And they're mum's going to be here in the middle house.

PS: Yeah, real tight family. And I think that's been the key, to the speed of this whole process is that the whānau are tight, they are united, and just get things done.

JK: We also spoke with Hinewai Hawaikirangi nō Ngāti Parau. Hinewai is a Trustee for the Rapihana Hawaikirangi Whānau Trust and the whānau driver for this project.

Kia ora Hinewai, thank you so much for meeting with me.

Hinewai Hawaikirangi: Tēnā koe, ngā mihi nui kia a koe. Ko Hinewai Hawaikirangi tōku ingoa, ko Ngāti Parau te hapū, ko Otatara te maunga me Hikurangi, ko Tutaehuri te awa, ko Te Whanganui a Rotu te moana. Āe. I'm Hinewai Hawaikirangi, and I'm a trustee of the Rapihana Hawaikirangi Ahu Whenua Trust. Our journey started for us as a family probably three years ago where we succeeded to Māori freehold land from our dad when he passed. Like a lot of Māori whānau do. We were lucky that it was only us four siblings who succeeded to one block of land. But that block of land wasn't big enough to be able to build the number of houses for us four siblings. But we all wanted to live there, because we understood that it's important that we occupy our whenua, that we're close to our marae, we're close to out maunga, we're close to our awa, and we're engaged in our whānau activities. So, what we looked at was, next to my father's block were two other vacant blocks. They were owned by whānau, they were left derelict because they had no connection to the whenua anymore. They either moved away from the region, or they weren't interested in building there, or using the land in any way. Our goal as a whānau was to look into these two land blocks next to our father's. We didn't really know who to go to, to find out how to get a hold of the blocks. But, through asking other whānau members around who the owners were, we eventually got to them. We were lucky that one block owner was just a koro, and the other block owner was a small trust of three siblings. So, in terms of being able to negotiate with the owners, we were lucky in that respect. But, before we did that we had to look at the Te Ture Whenua Māori Act. In order to see if this actually applicable, to buy Māori freehold land, and how we had to go about it. We had a vision as a whānau to all live there, so to realise that we needed the other two blocks, to have three blocks together, to have a big enough land block to put four to five houses.

JK: And you were telling me that none of them were large enough to develop?

HH: Yeah. So that was also advantageous for us as a trust was that, these two blocks were undevelopable, per the district council planning. In the Waiohiki area, we're classed as plains zone, which means you have to have at least 2500 square metres to be able to put one dwelling and a secondary. So, these two blocks that we were looking to buy were smaller than that. So for the owners, they weren't big enough to develop on anyway. But, with the three blocks combined, we could. What I did first was have that conversation with the owners. And say, look, we are whānau, and I talked about how we connected as whānau, where our common tīpuna had come from. So, we approached the land owners, and we started that initial discussion of, would the whānau like to sell? For the purpose of building a papakāinga for our whānau. And, initially they were on board with the idea, but then it was up to me to go away and put a proposal to them around the amount, who our lawyer would be, and some of the conditions we were thinking of in terms of a sale and purchase agreement. So, that's when I approached the Māori land court. Initially I spoke to the general manager, who has now left, at the Takitimu Māori Land Court. And she said, yes, yes there is a way to do it, and have a look at this part of the Act, and this section of the Act. So I went away and did that. And I felt that we met the criteria to be able to buy Māori freehold land, as first class alienee. So, I prepared all the evidence needed to show that we're a first class alienee, and at the same time started negotiating with the two block owners. I then started to prepare the documentation to firstly, send to the whānau, to the owners, the block owners, as well as preparing what the Māori land court would require. I then drew up a valuation assessment of the land that showed that the rateable value that the Hastings District Council put on those land blocks was inaccurate. And the way I found that out was, firstly asking Council how they calculate the rates. What equation do you use, and what specific things go into that equation, to get you to a rateable value. Particularly in the Waiohiki area. What that showed me was that they calculated the rates based on these town services, and that it's a block of land that can be developed on. So, I soon discovered that, in fact those two things aren't applicable to the blocks we wanted to buy. There are no town services to the two blocks, the two land blocks individually weren't big enough to develop on, so those two parts of the equation actually don't fit into how they calculated the rates. So that's when I could argue, well actually, we are going to take out those components of the equation, and look at a new equation, to actually look at the true value. Not incorporating the cultural or historical value - cause you can't put a value on that - but more the value in dollars. So I came up with a new equation, and explained that to the owners. But there's also real risks with buying those two pieces of land, because there was an easement that would take up 500 square metres, that we have to share with the nearby users. So, that was a risk, and then there was a power pole on one of the two blocks as well, that wasn't registered, but it's there and we weren't sure, at that stage we weren't sure whether or not we could use that land incorporated in the blocks. So, again, that was another risk factor that I put into the case to the judge, and explained to the owners. So we came to an agreeable amount in the end, and that's when I included my lawyer to draw up a sale and purchase agreement for the two blocks owners, for their lawyers to see. We'd come to an agreeable price and that was in the lawyers hands now, so I went back to the Māori land court and I was ready. I said, look, we've come to, almost agreed upon a sale and purchase agreement, I'm just coming in, I was given a case worker, I said I'm coming in to start the paperwork with the Māori land court as first class alienee, and under that section of the Act. And I went in there with my one year old, at the time, you know, ready to discuss how our case was going to go, and she came back and just said no, no you can't buy Māori freehold land. I said, what do you mean you can't buy Māori freehold land? It doesn't happen. And I said, uh, I think you need to go and talk to your general manager, cause I've had an initial discussion with her and under this section of the Act, we're first class alienees, and we have all the evidence, and the sale and purchase agreements are coming together, so, under that section and that criteria we do satisfy, that section of the Act. She had to go away to her Manager and ask, and when she came back she said, oh, yeah, actually yeah you can. I said, well, what if I came in here with the idea and you've just said no, but actually I can. And I said, you've been recommended as one of the better case workers, and you're not even, you're not equipped to help answer these questions I have through the Act, and denying something that I've worked really hard for the last two months, because you've made a judgement that I've come in here on this off the whim idea, and just because you've never heard of it being done before, you're not willing to actually investigate to see if it's doable. By the end of that meeting, I said look, I'd really like a case worker who will work with me, because I don't necessarily need someone to be an obstacle. I can do the research myself, I need someone who will just help me process what the Māori land court's here to do. And so, at that stage I did get another case worker, who was willing to work with what I had already done.

JK: But that wasn’t the final Māori land issue encountered on this project - they also ran into difficulties when it came to the title and access. Here’s Paora Sheeran again.

PS: We had a small delay here, learning lesson. Māori freehold land, not all of it was surveyed, back in the day. Because I used to work at the Māori land court, and we did a project where we registered all Māori freehold land with LINZ, land information New Zealand. So all we did was, we got them a title to register the names of the owners, if there was a survey completed, then they got what's called a computer freehold register. If it wasn't surveyed, they got what's called a computer interest register. So really all it is, it's a title, where you register the interests on there, but the actual boundaries aren't defined. And so, what we found out is you can't register a building consent on a computer interest register. To add to that, the roadway, the original Māori roadway used to come straight through here, on to the site, and that's what both, that's what all the land blocks around here used, for access. So obviously we had to shift the access over there. Then we got into some Māori land court difficulties, because part of the roadway on one of the blocks had been cancelled, but not on the other blocks. And so, Māori land court had to do a whole process of identifying why that happened, when it happened, and how is this going to be fixed. So, we actually had a, probably a 90 day delay, of just sorting that out.

JK: Back to Hinewai.

HH: Probably the next stage was looking at how do we finance this loan to buy the two blocks. Now as we all know, when we have Māori freehold land and we want to loan to either buy land, using Māori freehold land as security, or if we want to get a loan to build on Māori freehold land, all banks policies are just an umbrella no, we don't loan for that. Because in the past, it's probably been too difficult with Māori land having, usually, too many shareholders. In our case, that's not, and there's only the four of us as shareholders, and we're under a trust. But they just blanket, the policy, and say it's just an automatic no. And there's no special considerations around that. So, okay, so now Māori land court are on board, and we can do it, with the decision of the judge. We have sale and purchase agreements in place, with lawyers involved. Now how are we going to get a loan to buy the two blocks, which we now know the value of, and the price that we're willing to settle for. So ANZ is our bank, and they had this blanket policy as well. But, we found a way through my mother's house, that she had enough equity to borrow this amount, and it just sit with her house. The difficulty there is, my mum doesn't whakapapa to the land, and the Māori land court, when you purchase other Māori land, which is, you know, extremely difficult, as you've heard through just my case, that the land needs to sit or be owned by those who whakapapa to the land, which my mum doesn't. So, what I did to get around that, and I saw it as an obstacle, and actually a couple of managers first said no, no, no. But then I went to my business banking manager, and she found a way, because she is the type of person who will try and find a solution if I put it in front of her. But what I did was, okay, I drew up a legal document to say that mum relinquishes any power of ownership, she's purely just the financer. Almost like donating, but she's just financing the buying of the blocks, but the blocks, she has no interest, in the blocks. So, the bank was okay with that, the judge was okay with that, and that was another piece of evidence, in terms of having the ownership go through the Māori land court. I think they were the main obstacles, to put to the case, into a case for the judge to be able to allow the share transfer, therefore the ownership, into our trust, our family trust. So now we have, you know, we have three blocks of land to build our papakāinga that we've all envisaged, and spoke about, and wanted. Now we actually have the land, sufficient amount of land to make that realisation come to life. All of that was probably about three months of work. From initially getting in contact with the landowners, through going through lawyers, through going through the bank, through going through the Māori land court process, and there being multiple noes along the way, to going to the judge, to the hearing, and him within two minutes saying, you've got all the evidence you need, are there any objections, and it happened. It was done, we had the land. So, this three month process, running parallel with that, was applying for the Te Puni Kōkiri papakāinga grant. So, we're running them in conjunction with each other, hoping that they both are successful, because say if we got the land, great, and we didn't get the grant, we've got three blocks of land that we can't utilise within that year of funding, that we're servicing a mortgage for two of the blocks on. Then, in our proposal for the papakāinga, it says we have three blocks, so, if we go to the Māori land court and the judge says the evidence is not sufficient, or I don't see this as a fair sale, then we get the grant, we don't get the land, and that falls over. It was a huge risk. I think at the time in my mind I was positive, and I knew it was going to happen, but it was a lot of hard work, and it was a lot of persistence to hear no, constantly, but find another way, or find a back door. Because sometimes you have to think that there are multiple ways to get to the same outcome, and the traditional ways of banks, of the Māori land court workers that I had to come up against, the systems like the Councils way of rating land, especially Māori freehold land, any one of those obstacles could have meant that we failed. But, finding other ways to solve the problems, that was the fun and the challenge of this whole project.

JK: When I first heard Hinewai's story, I was blown away by the innovation that she was able to achieve and the tenacity of her whānau to just keep pushing - because there are still so many barriers. The thing that was really exciting to me was the fact that she was able to create new ways of thinking about whenua Māori, and to creatively interpret the Act to realise the aspirations of her whānau. Hinewai's story is significant, because it highlights the sheer tenacity required by Māori landowners to develop their whenua. I believe if we're able to tell these kinds of stories, it might help other whānau who maybe want to give up, or don't know that they can do these kind of things, or hope they can and get told no. By telling these stories, we might actually be able to influence systems change within Māori land administration, legislation, and financing. The project has also provided the foundation for economic development opportunities. Hinewai is a trained teacher of science and te reo Māori, and along with her husband Cameron Ormsby, Hinewai runs Napier Māori Tours, a local Māori tourism business.

HH: My background is a secondary school teacher, and that's what I've done for a while, and a mum. But, I think being involved in this project, and having to manage so many relationships, but also reconnecting with my whenua, and that started with when we had to look at our whakapapa back to the land. If we're going to build and live on it, we really, really need to know intimately our whakapapa and who our tīpuna were that lived here. And then that brought me into connections with other whānau, which then brought me into, oh okay, I want to know more about our pā. You know, and that was a process, this has been a process ever since I've moved home maybe five, six years. But, being involved with the papakāinga really strengthened it and honed in that knowing exactly, exactly what our history is. So Napier Māori tours started a year ago. Me and my partner, we own it, and we are the lead guides. And we tell our story about our tīpuna from the pā site. So, the papakāinga project has been integral to wanting to know more about our history, and then having the confidence to deliver all that, and that's a part of being a lead guide. Also being proud of where we're from, and what our history is, that's been a big part of moving back to our ancestral land. And wanting to share our knowledge with the rest of the community, and our visitors internationally. In a way the papakāinga project has reconnected me very strongly to our ancestral land, including our pā site, which is one of two tour sites that we used for Napier Māori tours. We've been enticed back to our land, and our stories and our history, and the papakāinga, the touring on our original pā site, Otatara pā, having the marae there, having the awa there, which we, as a whānau we plant native trees along there to restore riparian margins and bring back the ecosystem, with the native trees. You know, that's all together, I don't see them separately, they all work together, and they strengthen each other, those aspects of our life are now strengthened by being at the papakāinga, close to the marae, close to the pā site, which is now our work place, next to the awa which we grow plants, grow native trees for, that we beautify the rivers edge. It's all encompassing. Seeing our houses on our whānau land, right next to our marae, and all our children, my siblings children playing together, and growing up together. It's almost winding back time, like at the Pā site, at Otatara Pā, just across the road from us, how our tīpuna used to live, with their own whare yet all these communal areas. It's like, reversing the colonisation process or the urbanisation process.

JK: Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.

For more information about today’s show and other episodes of Indigenous Urbanism go to indigenousurbanism.net. You can drop us a line at [email protected]. And if you like what you’re hearing, please give us a review or rating on iTunes.

Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we continue our haerenga across the Hawke’s Bay to visit a new five house papakāinga development, on the hills of beautiful Waimārama.

PS: So we’re in Waimārama, which is in the Hawke's Bay, Kahungunu, as you can see it's coastal. We're right on the beach there. This is the Waimārama 3A1C2 Incorporation, and this is their papakāinga.

JK: For the Renata whānau, the development of papakāinga on their ancestral land is an opportunity to get back to their tūrangawaewae, and to connect with their marae and wider whānau.

Eru Smith: It feels great, feel very proud.

Brenda Tatere: I’m grateful that we can do this, that I can do this, real grateful.