Ancient texts, traditional foods, and friends and family: the markers of many Passover tables across America. But what if you added something new–or rather, someone new?

Marnie Fienberg founded 2ForSeder, a program to combat antisemitism and honor her mother-in-law, Joyce Feinberg, who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. The initiative is simple: extend a Seder invite to two people of another faith, who have never been to a Seder before, to build bridges and spread Jewish joy.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Marnie Fienberg

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• 2ForSeder.org

Listen to AJC’s People of the Pod:

• What the Iranian Regime’s Massive Attack Means for Israel and the Region

• Meet Modi Rosenfeld – the Comedian Helping the Jewish Community Laugh Again

• A Look Back: AJC’s Award-Winning “Remembering Pittsburgh” Series

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

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Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

A few weeks ago, we re-aired excerpts from our award winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, which marked five years since the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue. One of our guests in that series has returned today. Marnie Feinberg founded 2ForSeder, an initiative to honor her mother in law, Joyce Feinberg, who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. As we approach Passover, Marnie is with us now to share why there's no time like the present to invite first timers to the Seder table, a superb way to introduce people to the beauty of Judaism, like Joyce often did. Marnie, thank you for joining us again. 

Marnie Fienberg:  

Thank you so much for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So we spoke a little about this project, when you joined us last fall. We have a little more time now to unpack why this initiative is such a meaningful way to preserve Joyce's legacy. Can you tell us about her Seders?

Marnie Fienberg:  

My mother in law as most mothers and mother in laws, she trained me on how to actually hold the Seder. So as you know, holding the Seder is almost like your second bat mitzvah, it's a rite of passage. And it's also a very important thing that, you know, not only are you trained to do it, but you have to incorporate things from, if you have a partner or from their family, you incorporate things from your own life to your family traditions. And all that kind of comes together in this wonderful magical night that is really grounded in the Haggadah. 

But Joyce was of course instrumental and teaching me my mother lives kind of far away. And Joyce and I actually did Seders together for more than a decade. And they started at her house and gradually kind of came over to my house. But she really she helped me every single step of the way, to the point where when she wasn't there anymore, I almost didn't know how to do it. And I'm every time I'm thinking about the Seder and making a Seder. It's it's with her in my head as it has to be. But I still, you know, all of the traditions that she taught me we still utilize those once again, combined with the ones that I learned from my own family and she is a vise still a vibrant part of our personal Seder.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So was Joyce in your head still when you found 2ForSeder? 

Marnie Fienberg:  

Oh, absolutely. Well, I am a Jewish woman. And I can't sit still. I need to do something. We have tikkun olam kind of almost in our DNA. Yes. So I really wanted to not only bring her back, which I think is a natural sort of a feeling. But I also wanted to push back on all of the antisemitism that had removed her from my life. 

And people were constantly coming up to me, I mean, the community in Pittsburgh and the community where I live in Northern Virginia, everybody was very supportive. But they were constantly asking me, What can we do? And it took me a little while to realize they didn't, they did mean, what can I do to help you? Of course, they did mean that. But what they really meant was, what can we do to stop this from ever happening again? I don't have the answer for that. 

But I thought that the seder kind of came into my mind because I was really inspired by what Joyce always did that she brought students or faculty, you know, because she was a campus researcher, and my father in law was actually at Carnegie Mellon. He was a professor there. And they always had people who weren’t Jewish at our at the table. And the discussions were always not only very interesting, but you always saw a very different perspective, when they participated in something in a ritual that you knew so well. And it really created bonds of friendship, even with people who I didn't know. Which was wonderful. 

So that's what I really wanted to encourage, you know, this was 2018 when she was murdered. So 2019 was the Seder and I just wanted to encourage every Jew in America and in Canada, because Joyce was Canadian, that they, if they if they were holding the Seder, invite to people who had never been to a Seder before, start that dialogue, invite them to the intimacy of your home, and make them part of your family for that one night. 

And that will really help them understand the joy of Judaism, the happiness and the reason that we are Jewish is, it's right there in the Seder. In every Seder I've ever been to, it's always there, and to share that with someone who is not Jewish, starts the dialogue to understanding about the differences between us, the similarities, all these great things, that this is a thing that combats the hate that took my mother in law.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

These are uncomfortable times, they were certainly uncomfortable back in 2018, when the Tree of Life happened, but they're uncomfortable times again for the Jewish community. For everyone really? Who's watching what's been going on in Israel since October seventh. What does the Seder offer? And how do you avoid some of the pitfalls that can arise? When you do bring people perhaps have different perspectives around a dinner table?

Marnie Fienberg:

I'm glad you asked that question. Because my family and Joyce, you know, we feel very strongly about what's happening in Israel, we have a lot of family over there. A lot of friends, like everyone else, we all know someone in Israel. And it's a part of what's going to happen in your Seder this year, I assume almost everybody's going to do something to remind them about, you know, that the hostages are still not freed, that there are people that are starving, but are being helped. This is a difficult situation, it's not a simple, straightforward thing. And the Seder Absolutely, is a reprieve from that for a moment. I think the idea of the Seder is about reaffirming your Judaism, because it takes you on that journey from when we were a tribe, to a nation. It's that little piece in the middle. But it's when you reaffirm your Judaism every year. So it's still important to do it. It's so important to do it your way. And if you want to have a reminder of the hostages, an empty seat at the table, something on the Seder plate, there's so many different ways that you could do something. I think that all of those things would be absolutely important right now, something that reminds you that we're doing this, not just for our family, but we're going to be doing this for those families that are missing those members right now. So I think that the the Seder in general will be healing to some extent for everybody who participates. So inviting someone who's never been to a Seder before. I think it's important, not only do you explain the Seder, which you really do need to do, you have to explain it before you start. And then they can participate and feel comfortable. But also explain to them that if you are going to be doing something to remember the hostages and all the people that were lost, let them know ahead of time that that's what you're going to be doing. You don't want to surprise your guests, your other guests will know exactly what you're doing by the guests who are not Jewish. Don't assume that they know, make sure there's great communication, and everything should go very smoothly.

Manya Brachear Pashman 

So I appreciate you kind of mentioning some of the rituals that we can do to honor the hostages and to remind the guests that the hostages are not free. But what about guests who come to the table who have been watching what's going on and disagree. They have really strong emotions and opinions about what's going on there between Israel and Hamas. And I asked this because I know Joyce worked at the University of Pittsburgh, as you said her husband Steven was a professor at Carnegie Mellon. And they often invited students to dinners and Seders. You might have seen the dean of Berkeley Law School has an annual custom of inviting students to his home for a dinner with students. And recently a group accepted that invitation showed up, but then got up from the table and pulled out their megaphones right there in his backyard. So it's hard to believe that that level of rudeness is possible. But it does appear to be a real risk. So can you offer some tools or tips on how to avoid that kind of a response? Or how to respond if you get that kind of behavior?

Marnie Fienberg:

Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting, I think that we feel a heightened sense of that this year. But it's interesting, that is one of the most asked questions that I always get: How do I ensure that my guests don't veer into politics or if they have disagreements or things along those lines? Probably not the first year so much. But the other years, we've always had questions along those lines. So my recommendation is that you lay some ground rules ahead of time. So as the leader of the Seder, you're not just the head mom or the head Dad, you are the facilitator of what's going on around your table. And while some of us will have five people around the table, some of us will have 30 people around the table, and some of us will be in the backyard with I don't know how many people that the Dean had. But regardless of any people you have, you still have to manage their expectations. It's very important. So when you lay ground rules, it's your choice. You may want to actually have a lively debate. Many Seders are a lot of fun when there's a lot of debate. And if you know the guest, and you know that that's what they're interested in talking about. And the rest of your guests would be okay with it. That is your choice and you should manage that but even with that You might want to say, look, we're going to venture into politics, we can't talk about X, Y, and Z. Or I'll let you know when we've gone too far. Or, hey, this now it's time to bring out the dessert, because that'll stop everybody from talking. I don't know, that's going to be your choice. There is the other side of the coin. And this is actually I live in Washington, DC, where politics is always quite a big deal. But other politics, right, all sorts of politics. So one of the ground rules we always have at our Passover Seder is to have no politics at all, this is a little island, we're not going to talk about the fact that you might be one party, I might be another party, he is going to be another party and y'all work for those parties. I mean, it's not like these are just opinions. So one of our ground rules is always this is a time to focus on once again, the joy of Judaism, the joy of reaffirming my beliefs, and being with my family. And really kind of feeling like this is a very, very special time. And I personally have never wanted politics at my table, because I want that joy to fall through. But when I've been to other tables, it's been very different. So my ground rules are always this is a politics free space. If you'd like to talk about politics, let's go out for drinks after Passover.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So it's a great point about being in Washington. But again, there's a chance that politics will be brought up at every table, whether it's California or Nebraska, or Texas or Maine. So if it does get tense if people ignore the ground rules, for example. Any suggestions on what to do? 

Marnie Fienberg:

Yes, actually, we do have a couple of tools in our toolkit. So two first Seder, if you go to our website to crusader.org, we actually have two kits, when you hit the signup button, it's two free kits for you. One is for your guests to kind of set expectations about the Seder, not about politics, it doesn't touch about that. But it's still important. But the host kit actually has 20 discussion cards in it. And I would actually recommend it if you've started out with a little bit of excitement with politics, and you don't like the way it's going, or if you want to say, look, I really want to avoid it. But I know, this is a lively crew, which I mean, you know your people, right? So I would actually print them out, put the discussion cards out on the table, and actually start picking up some of them and you know, send them around the table and start having discussions about them. So they are more about the Seder. And some of them are pretty surface level, like, what do you think about the taste of matzah, and you're having a discussion about how all these things are cooked with matzah and how crazy that is and how difficult it is and what a genius your chef must be, you know, so you get to compliment the host or hostess. But on the other side of it, there's some deep waters that it goes into, to really talk about the philosophy behind the Seder in some deeper things. So you can really choose what you want. There's 20 different discussion cards. And I think when people are having a very tense discussion, if you say, look, I like where this is going. But it's just not appropriate for today. We've got an alternative here. Let's keep talking. But let's talk about these topics. It won't always work. But it tends to work me most people really, you know, they have strong opinions about many things. And that is what the Seder is for, right? We're supposed to be learning, we're supposed to be growing from each other. So if you can change the topic, if you're uncomfortable with it, the discussion cards are a wonderful tool to help kind of guide that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And those can be downloaded at the 2ForSeder.org site. 

Marnie Fienberg:

Yes, yes, exactly. There's a host toolkit. And it's the last 20 pages of the host toolkit. You

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

know, I'm so glad Ramadan has passed so that in a Muslim guests are able to come and enjoy these saders Without the concern of breaking their fast. But I know that a little has been written about how Jewish Muslim relations have been on edge. And honestly, I have a few Jewish acquaintances who were nervous about attending if tars during Ramadan or weren't invited to as many if tars during Ramadan this year, just because of the potential for tension. Are you hearing any concerns about or from the Muslim community? Or are you hearing that people are sadly turning down invitations for similar reasons?

Marnie Fienberg:

Yeah, I think that as you said, this is a very challenging year. And if you don't feel comfortable, you're not going to a particular place. And I have Muslim friends and normally I am invited to if tours across the month, and I received very few invitations this year, which was interesting. We're still friends. The friendships haven't ceased or anything like that, but the invitations were not their part. To the reason what I did ask part of the reason they felt that they shouldn't be celebrating when people are starving and Palestine so they actually toned down their celebrations out of respect which that's a longer conversation, but I respect that and I appreciate that. Would they be coming to my table? I don't know. We have a community Seder a community to for Seder that we hold every year. So most of to First Aiders about home Seders, you know, so the idea of doing it in your home that is the primary core of twofer Seder. But we've started a nice little thing on the side, where we do a community to for Seder, where everybody we actually invite interfaith groups. The spirit of twofer Seder is about building a bridge. And I hope actually in the past, if you've done too, for Seder before, thank you, but be I hope that those bridges are holding during these troubled times. And if you can't build them during a difficult time like this, you know, I'm hoping I'm praying that next year, there won't be no war, and we'll be able to mend some of these fences and you will be able to invite and accept invitations to Iftar invitations to your Seder for your Muslim friends, I think it's important to keep trying. That's one thing that we are obligated to do as Jews, that may not work, but you'd have to keep trying.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

One thing I've noticed over the years, and the many Seders I've attended is the diversity of traditions and the customs some families put an orange on the table and have a glass for Miriam, other stick to Elijah. So make sure the Afikoman is chocolate, others play it straight. Some change the lyrics of the songs to fit Beyonce tunes, I won't lie I've done that. But does that present a challenge to the purpose or the goal of two for Seder? You know, the goal being to teach a newcomer about Passover? How do you do that? When it's you know, the traditions can be so different.

Marnie Fienberg:

This is also very–well not the Beyonce piece. But that's a very common question. First of all, I want to say I would really like a copy of that, please.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I'll dig it up for you. 

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you. But that's the whole point that the Seder is blue door for door right we are Lincoln a chain from generation to generation and the core of the Seder the Haggadah, regardless of if you do a traditional haggadah that is, you know, four hours long starts after sunset, maybe you eat by midnight, you know, if you're doing a modern Orthodox or an orthodox Seder, or if you're doing a very, very modern said Seder, which just has the basic four pieces in it. And Tiktok you're done. I'm starving. It's been 10 minutes. Welcome to my my dad. Actually, that's the way he does his. But I've been to all different types, because you know, almost all of our Jewish families, we have a variety in our family, we have Orthodox, we have reform, we have everything in between, right? That's what it's about. It's about the magic of what you bring to your Seder. The haggadah is going to ground you, you've got the grounding story about our journey to becoming a people. That's the core, but what you do a round it, that's you, you are bringing you and your family and all the things that bring you joy, into your Judaism, into your Seder. And these things are critical.

If you just read the Haggadah, and then you walked away, it wouldn't be joyous it would be yes, I was here. But the joy behind it is removed. So the idea that you know, you almost always have children at your Seder, and there's a rule for the children. Why is that? There's a role for the adults to teach the children. There's the food, there's thinking about the future when you sing Eliyahu with the door open so that your neighbors can hear you and wonder what is going on. I mean, all of these things. There's personal ways to put a stamp on those. But we're going to do those. And even if you do it to Beyonce, once again, very excited to hear that. It's really bringing that modern tinge to it. When we're going to hand the hat over to our children. When they do it. They're going to do something different and there'll be wondering who's Beyonce? That's okay, that's okay. But they're still going to do the for questions. They're still going to do the monkey, they're still going to do the Eliyahu all these pieces will still flow. I have proof of this. When I was working to create the community to for Seder. I wanted to create our own Haggadah, and I use of course haggadot.com To start off with, but I really wanted certain things that weren't in there and and I got stuck and I'm sitting here staring at the screen and my teenage daughter walks in and And she actually wanted to help me right there. I know you don't believe me, but she sat down. She said, How can I help? And I was walking through some of the more traditional lines. I don't know why they always took my heart, you know, where they say, you know, in God with an outstretched arm and outstretched hand and the old language, right? Should I keep it in the Haggadah, or should I not? And she looked at me like I was nuts. And she said, of course, you have to, you must, it won't be the Haggadah without it. And that really made me feel like this is going to pass down, at least in my family. These words are so intrinsic to who we are, somehow it gets passed down. It's amazing.

Manya Brachear Pashman 

My last question is, who will be coming to your site or table this year? 

Marnie Fienberg:

So I'm holding two Seders, although I'm going to three. The first one is the community Seder that is being held in Temple Emanu-El in South Hills right outside of Pittsburgh. And I'm gonna be sort of emceeing it. And we're going to be using the Haggadah that we talked about. And that will be I think there are three different churches that are joining and all sorts of different folks. And one of the tables is actually just teenagers. So I'm really excited because, you know, sometimes to first seders is of interest to adults, and not so much the younger set. Although at our last community Seder, we had a lot of college kids, we had a huge table of college kids, which was great. So I think that that's gonna be a wonderful Seder. The next Seder is going to be the second night we'll be at my house, my friend is holding it the first night at her house. Second night will be in my house, we're having 25 people's the current count, although, you know, it's Wednesday, so somebody's gonna have too late of a night or whatever, so they won't be able to come. But we're really excited because this is more even though there will be some family coming in. This is more of like, a friend Seders the second night for us. So it's going to be a wonderful night. Who's gonna be my two for Seder. This is once again through my daughter. She has a friend who is actually Korean, and her family is going to be joining us. I'm so excited her families, they're wonderful folks. And the one thing I'm nervous about is that they are amazing cooks, and I'm not sure if my cooking is going to stand up to their skills. So hopefully it'll all work out. But it's gonna be a lovely night as it always is.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

That sounds truly lovely. 25 people, Marnie, you are a brave woman, a brave hostess.

Marnie Fienberg:

I wish there was one more that was coming, but she will be there in spirit.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Yes, absolutely. And thank you because I know it's a lot of hard work to put together a Seder. But again, so important it is such an anchor, I think for families and preserving our traditions. So thank you for all that hard work that's going into that Seder.

Marnie Fienberg:

It is my pleasure and I think every single person who's putting together a Seder and participating in to for Seder, if you've done it before, thank you, if you're interested in doing it again, we've got little kids to help you but just be you and it's about inviting new people every year. And that's how we're going to help really make an awareness about what it really is to be Jewish, not what you hear, you know, the negative rumors, replace those with positive Jewish joy. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Well, thank you so much, Marnie. The website to download discussion cards and toolkits, all the instructions that you need to host a Seder with a guest is at two, the number two for seder.org Marnie, thanks again for joining us.

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you so much for having me. This was a great discussion.

AJC Jerusalem director Lt. Col. (res.) Avital Leibovich shares how the IDF — and its neighbors and allies — defended Israel with remarkable success. In the early hours of April 14, sirens and explosions were heard across the Jewish state. In an unprecedented, first-ever direct attack on the Israeli people, the Iranian regime launched a wave of more than 300 drones and missiles. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Avital Leibovich

Show Notes: Take Action: Join AJC in urging Congress to call on the EU to designate all of Hezbollah and the IRGC as terror organizations. Read AJC’s Explainers on Iran:

• Get the Facts About Iran’s Unprecedented Attack on Israel

• ‘Crimes Against Humanity:’ Another UN Report Finds Sexual Violence by IRGC and Other Authorities in Iran; Similar to Crimes by Hamas

• What is Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Why is it Designated a Terror Group by the United States?

Listen to AJC’s People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Meet Modi Rosenfeld – the Comedian Helping the Jewish Community Laugh Again

• A Look Back: AJC’s Award-Winning “Remembering Pittsburgh” Series

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Few of us slept well on Saturday night into Sunday knowing that Iran had launched a wave of more than 300 drones and missiles in its first ever direct attack on Israel. In the early hours of Sunday, sirens and explosions were heard across the Jewish state. Here to talk about how Israel definit itself from what many feared was inevitable, Director of AJC Jerusalem Avital Leibovich, who also serves in the Israel Defence Force Reserves. 

Avital Leibovich:

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So can you share with our listeners what it was like to hear that Iran had launched this wave of missiles and drones? Did Israelis immediately pack up and head for shelters?

Avital Leibovich:

I think that was one of the most dramatic nights in Israel's history. You know, we're living in an era in which everything is televised and broadcasted. And when those drones have been launched from Iran, that has been broadcasted. So you can imagine millions of Israelis sitting at home, counting the hours until those drones will hit the Israeli airspace. In addition to that there was a lot of uncertainty of which type of drones we're talking about, what kind of explosives will they carry? Will they make it or not? And also, will these drones be accompanied by other weapons? So yes, there was huge concern. It was a sleepless night, sometimes between 2am until seven in the morning, Israel has been paralyzed with this unprecedented attack. Now 200 drones that have been fired at the same time to Israel. This is something that the world have never, ever experienced, there was never a country in the world that has been attacked simultaneously by 200 drones. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, we also know that there were in addition to drones, there were ballistic missiles, there were cruise missiles. And we know that some of those ballistic missiles could have been fitted with nuclear warheads. And certainly, we know Iran's nuclear capability has been developing rapidly for more than a decade. Was that a concern?

Avital Leibovich:

Look,unlike terror groups, you know, they rely on funding of different countries, proxies and so on. Iran is a country with its own budget with its own economic means, and has been investing in technologies and procurement and development of weapons of different kinds for decades. So we saw some of the outcome of the Iranian weapons in Ukraine. When Iran sold some types of drones to Russia to hit Ukrainian civilians. We understood the capacity, the capability. And of course, Israeli intelligence followed closely the Iranian capabilities. 

Now, when you have so many options, the warheads of ballistic missiles can vary. And therefore there was also uncertainty with regard to what would those ballistic missiles carry? Will they carry conventional weapons? Will they carry non conventional weapons? In addition to that, the attack came after more than six months of the war in Israel. So the level of stress and the level of uncertainty was high to begin with. 

We're talking about six months in which Israel paid the heavy price of more than 600 soldiers and officers who were killed, and more than 1200 civilians. So it wasn't an isolated evening. It really came in the course of a very long war. And now, Israel is facing the big question of retaliation, yes or no, when and how?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, we have long talked about Israel and Iran being in a proxy war, Hamas and Hezbollah being two of those terror proxies that want to destroy Israel and are already engaged in conflict, as you've said, as you pointed out, to do just that. Yet, it really was unthinkable that Iran would dare to directly launch missiles at Israel. How did this attack change the thinking and do Israelis think it is an indication of more to come?

Avital Leibovich:

Israel changed its thinking twice in the last six months. The first time was October 7. Israel never believed that Palestinians who entered Israel on a daily basis from Gaza as workers, would be collaborators of Hamas and would supply them with intelligence information about communities, about homes of people, about police stations in cities and so on. So we understood that we are, we need to change the concept, the operational concept, the strategic concept as well. 

And the second time was when Iran attacked Israel a few nights ago. And here for the first time, Iran shows to take a risk, and fire over 350 targets more than 60 tons of explosives at Israel from its own sovereign territory. So whether it's proportionate or not, whether it's a retaliation to something or not, this does not change the fact that this is a precedent and as a president, Israel, of course needs to change the way it reacts and it plans. I know that the cabinet has met a few times already, since the attack of Iran. And the cabinet is discussing different ways in which it could retaliate, prepare, better prepare the storages of munitions that we have. So they are different opportunities for Israel. 

And one of the questions I want to ask Manya is, how is the world looking at this? Because this is not an ordinary thing. And you know, one of the statements that came out yesterday, was from the G7 ministers meetings. And I was certain that the statement will primarily include practical steps against Iran, which is not only a problem for the Middle East and Israel, but for the entire world. And one of the leading statements said that, no, we have agreed to, to convince Israel not to retaliate. And I'm thinking to myself, haven't we learned anything? Do we want to wake up in a few months and discover that Iran has turned into a country with nuclear capabilities, with five bombs with six bombs? 

Now, October 7, have never would have happened if it wasn't for Iran. Hezbollah attacking Argentina, the Jewish Community Center, decades ago, and murdering a lot of Jews and diplomatic staff would not have happened if not of Iran, and a lot of terror attacks all over the world as well. So how many proofs more does the world need, in order to take concrete action concrete measures against this terror global inciter called Iran.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In addition to the United States, Israel's allies and neighbors really stepped up Saturday night, the United Kingdom, France, Jordan, they all helped down some of the drones that were headed Israel's way. But the attack undoubtedly depleted some of Israel's defenses. And so what does Israel need now from its allies, particularly, you know, in the way of action by governments in the United States and the EU? What does Israel need to make sure it can defend itself if God forbid, this happens again, or another October 7, happens again?

Avital Leibovich:

It's not a secret that the US and Israel are very strong strategic allies. And this has two main reasons for it. The first and maybe the most important one is the shared values that we hold between us. And the second is the mutual interests. The US needs a strong Israel in the region with strong capabilities, whether its intelligence or others. And Israel needs also a very close coordination with the US. So when we are maneuvering between these islands of terror in the region, we can work together to overcome those islands of terror. Now, in this situation, I think the coalition that work together, the countries which you mentioned, preformed an amazing, orchestrated, successful operation. 

And part of it comes because Israel is now a part of CENTCOM, the central command. This is the command that actually gathers all the countries from the region. So in addition to being a part of that command, we share knowledge, technology,intelligence, we exercise together with other militaries. And this is the basis for future cooperation, like we've seen a few days ago within that coalition. So I think those steps are very important. I would say that continued US support for Israel’s strength. And obviously, we did not plan to fight for so long. And such a long period of fighting demands a lot of ammunition. So the US support, both in budget, but in also resources, military resources, is critical for Israel to succeed and continue to defend its people and in the country.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

My last question, Avital, kind of references what you just said a moment ago about how the world just doesn't seem to realize the global threat that is posed by Iran. Does Israel's success matter not just to Israel, but to the world at large?

Avital Leibovich:

You know, Israel's success is based on the air defense system that was built for decades, with Israeli technology, Israeli know how. The ability to intercept different kinds of rockets and drones is something first of all technology we shared with the US, and we work in partnership, but also comes out of a lot of investment. 

Now, I believe that today in 2024, the world needs to aspire for a more stable Middle East. The Abraham Accords, was a part of that direction. And furthering and enhancing the Abraham Accords, expanding the Abraham Accords in the future, will just help the world to see a more stabilized area. 

Now, Iran has to be dealt with, there is no question about that. I do expect sanctions and putting on the terror list, the Revolutionary Guards and Hezbollah in its entirety, you know, Lebanon doesn't have a president for more than a year, because Hezbollah never approved the candidates, for example. So Hamas needs to be on the terror list. The Houthis need to be on the terror list, the Houthis are a problem for the world disrupting cargo movement in the Red Sea. 

So these are all terror groups, proxies, with different sizes with different intensities of weapons, all imminent in one troublemaker, and that is Iran. So my expectation after a few nights ago, is that the world, the Western world, the modern Western world will gather together and take concrete steps. So we do not wake up surprised in a few months and find a nuclear Iran ready to launch the rockets with nuclear warheads and we don't know exactly where–to Europe to Israel, elsewhere in the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Avital, I'm glad you're safe. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Avital Leibovich:

Thank you for the opportunity and am yisrael chai.

Israeli-American Comedian Modi Rosenfeld, who took part in the inaugural AJC’s Voices Against Antisemitism Campaign, just-released a stand-up comedy special, Know Your Audience, which reflects a principle he has always subscribed to. But what happens when you know your audience is suffering a trauma like no other? Listen to this conversation with Modi, who was in Israel on October 7, on how he jokes about antisemitism and what he sees as his mission in this difficult moment: helping the Jewish community laugh again.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Modi Rosenfeld

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• AJC's Voices Against Antisemitism: Meet the Celebrities Standing Up for the Jewish People and Israel

• modilive.com

Photo Credits:

• John Cafaro

Credits – Standup Clips:

• On Antisemitism

• Jewish Boyfriend

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• A Look Back: AJC’s Award-Winning “Remembering Pittsburgh” Series

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Episode with Modi:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Comedian Modi Rosenfeld, known by his fans as simply Modi, is nearing the end of a live national tour, co-hosts his own podcast, and he recently released his first televised stand-up comedy special titled Know Your Audience. It’s a principle the Israeli-American comedian has always subscribed to. But what happens when you know your audience is suffering a trauma like no other. Here with us to talk about how we can and why we should laugh again is Modi Rosenfeld. 

Modi, welcome to People of the Pod.

Modi:  

Hi, People of the Pod.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You were born in Tel Aviv and grew up on Long Island. Tell us how you found your way to comedy. 

Modi:  

I was actually just doing investment banking. And I used to imitate the secretaries. And my friends said this is really funny, you should do it on stage. And they set up an open mic night. And that was about 30 something years ago. And that's how the comedy began.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The special that I mentioned was filmed nearly a year ago. It was filmed before the Hamas terrorist attack and the war. You talk about COVID, you talk about marrying your millennial husband, you talk about Shabbat elevators. I'm curious if you do feel like the material still resonates in the current climate? 

Modi:  

Ever since October 7, I've been doing my shows and not mentioning the war itself. Until the very end where I sing Hatikva with the audience. I feel like the audience needs a moment to just laugh and not think about the war. And not think about what's happening in Israel and just have a laugh about being Jewish, being Jewish, about non-Jewish people. 

Sometimes I tell the story about how I was October 7, while I was in Israel. And then sing Hatikva with the audience, people seem to, they're very touched and moved by it. And it reminds them, now, let's just remember where our hearts and where our prayers and where our thoughts are.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's talk about where you were on October 7.

Modi:  

The war began at the end of the holiday of Sukkot and I was in Israel. I had six shows, sold out shows in Israel that were absolutely amazing. One of the highlights of my career. Thursday was the last show. Friday we were there for Shabbat and Saturday we were scheduled to fly out to Paris to do four shows there. And obviously Saturday morning, the alarms went off and the bombs went off. 

We were staying at the Setai Hotel, which is in Yafo, the Arab part of Tel Aviv. Bruno Mars was also staying at the hotel. He had three concerts in Israel and at 12 in the afternoon we saw them whisk him away to a private airplane to be taken out of Israel. 

And I said to Leo, my husband, I said Thank God they got put on Mars out of the hotel. He said why? I said because if a bomb hits this hotel and me and Bruno Mars die, I would get zero press coverage. 

And so that was you know, something light in the day, but it was a very, very stressful, scary day for everybody. We were on a scheduled flight to go to Paris. And it had a four hour delay. And we finally took off and got to Paris. And then we had to make a decision. Do we do these shows? Because the war was so fresh, people were just learning about what's happening and watching it on their phones. But the sold out shows were full. And that's when I began to do Hatikvah at the end of the shows, and I've been doing it ever since.

You know, we just had an hour and 20 minutes of laughter, they just had the best time. We were all laughing. And then you just focus again, you know, yeah, we're laughing. But in Israel, there's a whole different experience happening. And even though in Israel now, the comedians there are also performing and doing shows. You've got to find a respite from being in the war.

Because we are, you know, everybody's on their phones, you’re 24 hours in the war, receiving news and footage and all kinds of information. And then you finally get to just take a few minutes to laugh.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

When you said that you were actually an investment banker, that you found comedy kind of as a career later on, but what role did humor and comedy play in your upbringing, in your family life, your childhood?

Modi:  

Only later on in life that I realized that my father more than all is a very funny person, just by having no editing skills. I never was a class clown. I was always funny with friends, but you know, when you're a table comic, and you're a real comic it’s two different things. 

If you can be funny with your friends at a table, you know your audience, you know everybody at the table, you know what they've gone through, you know what we all know that they went through. And so it's easier to get a joke out. When you're on stage, you don't know everybody, and you don't know what they've all been through, or how they know each other. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how do you kind of unite your audience? How do you try to kind of find that common denominator?

Modi: 

People are kind of seeing the Jewish world through my eyes, through the eyes of a Jewish person. And they learn things, even though sometimes it gets a little specific, I always translate. My goal in comedy is to make people happy, is to bring laughter into the world, which I call Moshiach Energy.

When you're standing in front of an audience of 500 to 1500 to 2000 people and you see them all laughing together. For me, that's Moshiach Energy. 

How I pictured the world would be when Moshiach is here. You know, the Messianic era, just people just happy, united, laughing, not arguing. And even though you can create that for an hour and a half, you wish you could create it for 24/7.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how else have you adjusted your live shows to reflect the current situation in addition to adding the anthem? Do you talk about antisemitism? 

Modi:  

I was always talking about antisemitism, not as a lecture, not as a type of Noa Tishby, but more as a comedian. Here's what's happening, here's how it's funny. You're bringing light to it, but you’re bringing it with punch lines that are appropriate. And this was before the war, it's in my special, it’s before the war. 

I don't know if you remember there was a politician in Turkey that stood up and screamed that Allah was going to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. And then he drops, has a heart attack. I mean, the jokes sometimes just write themselves. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

A few weeks ago, we spoke with musician Matisyahu, who also has been on a national tour. He has encountered protests at most of his concerts, actually. And some concerts have even been canceled because of security concerns. Have you encountered any of that?

Modi:  

In general to answer that, I would say not in the form he's had. We've had a lot of security at our shows, especially the European shows. Since the war I’ve performed in Berlin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Vienna, Brussels, Amsterdam. I call it the Reparations Tour. 

And we've had an enormous amount of security both from hired security and local police and guards from the city. Our last show in Paris, we had four shows in Paris, the fourth one, the police asked us to cancel because there was a huge pro-Palestinian riot across the street. 

And the reason I stay riot and not protest is because it was unauthorized, and they were out of control. They had tear gas thrown in there. And that was one of the incidences.

In Brussels there was a mixup in people knowing that the security would be there. So we lost about 100 people that were going to come to the show. So the show went from 900 people to 800 people. That's the worst that's happened.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And did you indeed cancel that fourth Paris show because of the riot?

Modi:  

The Paris police were so wonderful with providing security for all the other three shows, when they asked us to cancel that show, we listened to them, and we did it. And we actually moved it to the following day to a matinee. 

But they said this is not going to be a good idea for this insane amount of, that kind of protest to be–it was catty corner across from where our theater was. 

It was the Republic Square, which our theater was at the Apollo, which was you can see it. And so they said it's not a good idea to have Jews walking into a theater at that moment.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Makes sense. Was it a coincidence that it was that it was located there? Or was it connected to your show in any way?

Modi:  

No, no, no–the Republic Square is, I guess, an iconic place to do something like that. My theater happened to have been across the street from it.

This was the Thursday after the Saturday, which was less than a week. Our first show in Paris was on Monday after the Saturday of the beginning of the war. So you couldn't understand how fresh this was. 

All the news was coming in. Everybody was finding out exactly what was going on. We didn't have all the information, we had no idea about people that were locked in bomb shelters and people that were missing, they had no idea if they were killed or kidnapped and then just doing comedy there you know, literally I'm in the back of the theater looking at people watching their phones, trying to get information on what's happening on the war and then the lights go down and the comedy starts.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How have you been affected by the war?

Modi:  

We have family in Israel that are affected by just being in Israel and the change in their lifestyles that happened. Directly, we have family that their their kids are in Gaza. Ellie Beer from United Hatzalah is a close friend of mine, his son is fighting in Gaza. So when I speak to Ellie, I'm like, how's your kid doing? 

When you're in Israel, you speak to people, it's like one degree of separation between you and anybody that's truly affected by the war. 

When we did the 100th episode of my podcast at the 92nd Street Y, my podcast, which is called And Here's Modi. I'm so used to performing at fundraisers and charities where they show a movie of something horrible, and then they bring me out, and they go, and here's Modi:. And here I am the Monday after the war, doing a show. 

We did a Q&A with the audiences, a pre Q&A, sent questions in, and everybody kept asking who would you want as a guest on the podcast and I said, Omer Shem Tov, which is one of the hostages. His photo for some reason I see it everywhere. And I wish he could be in front of me at the podcast and not in a tunnel somewhere being held hostage.

I truly go to bed every night thinking I'm gonna wake up. When I open my phone up, it's gonna say today, all hostages were released, ceasefire has begun. And there will be an end to this soon.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I think that that is what we all pray for, and hope to wake up to every morning. I’m curious if you've returned to Israel since October 7, I know you've been on tour, traveling a lot, but have you had a chance?

Modi:  

I have been in every Jewish community from California to Florida to New York to Chicago to everywhere, with the tour. And again, it's, I think, for me, that's more important than being in Israel, because I'm connecting with these communities who are not in Israel, and bringing them a little bit of unity. 

The community gets together, you see people –for some reason, all our shows are starting a little late, everybody just sees each other in the lobby and like, Hi, how are you? Good to see you. And then they come into the show. 

I think that's more important for me to be doing that than running around Israel, saying how ridiculous this war is. Everybody's doing what they can do. And I'll be in Israel in June, and I'll be doing a show in Yerushalayim, and then I'll be back there in September doing a larger show in Tel Aviv and doing whatever I can do to help there.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You often interact with audience members in your show. Have you had any interesting encounters with individuals in your audience? Especially since October 7?

Modi:  

I'm not one of those comics who does the where are you from, what do you do and make a whole hour about trying to get something funny out of that. That's totally not my style. I do ask if anybody's not Jewish and this way I know–if you see my comedy special you see there's an extra layer of the joke. Me translating it to the person who's not Jewish. 

I will tell you in that aspect, beautiful things have happened. People who are let's say in an intermarriage or even converted to Judaism come up to me afterwards and say, Wow, I never felt so welcomed and accepted and feel a part of the tribe and they tell me their story about how they ended up in the Jewish world.

Like my husband, who was born Catholic. And now he is coordinating with your organization, with every other UJA, JJJ, JJC, JJABC, JABC JJBC. You know, and he is on the phone speaking to people about a motzei shabbos show, a pre-shabbos show, after yuntif, before yuntif. 

He's coordinating with the Jewish world to make sure that they're laughing. And it's an amazing– that's one of the nicest things that I've been seeing. People who ended up in the Jewish community that weren't Jewish, feel so welcome from the show.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What makes you proud to be Jewish, Modi?

Modi:  

What makes me proud to be Jewish is, I just think that the contribution of Jews to the world is significantly larger than the size of the people that we are. And I talk about that now in the new part of my show, you know, how just everywhere you go, whether something to do with medicine, education, culture, there's always a Jewish name on the building. A part of being Jewish is not only helping the Jews in the community, it's helping the community. So not just creating something–the Lubavitcher Rebbe always spoke about that, whatever you are in the community, don't just help the Jews there, help the community in general. 

And you see that, you know. You go to any hospital, any museum, and you just see the Goldberg Pavilion, you see the Horowitz Wing, and they just give and help create all of that. In comparison to the size that we are in the world, we do a lot more. And something, that makes me proud.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I think that you're absolutely right. And I think that your contribution of comedy and humor, and laughter, especially at a time like this is really so appreciated.

Modi:  

You can bring humor into the world by, I always say: be the friend that brings their friends to the comedy show. If you see me coming to a theater near you, another comedian, coming to a theater, buy a few tickets. By the time the comic gets there, you'll see how all your friends are looking for tickets, and they're gonna want to have a good night of laughter. 

And now you can just make a night at your house, you can put my special on the TV and have a bunch of friends watching and make an evening of it, and make sure to send it and make sure that people who can't get to a show like the elderly and your parents, grandparents that don't have a way to get to a show or don't know how to set up Amazon or go to my website, help them, sit with them. Watch the comedy show with them. That's Moshiach energy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, thank you so much, Modi.

Modi:  

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Last week, we re-aired excerpts from our award-winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, which marked five years since the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue. 

Next week, one of the guests in that series returns. Marnie Fienberg founded 2ForSeder, an initiative to honor her mother-in-law Joyce who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. 

Ahead of Passover, Marnie will share how inviting newcomers to our Seder table can be a powerful way to push back against antisemitism.

 

Listen to this compilation of our award-winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, exploring how the horrific shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue affected the Jewish community in Pittsburgh, the U.S., and around the world. In the four-part series, we take listeners behind the scenes of how the Pittsburgh Jewish community continues to rebuild and honor the lives lost on October 27, 2018.

The anniversary came during the same month as the most lethal attack on Jews since the Holocaust: Hamas' October 7 massacre of Israelis. Rising antisemitism has led to the murder of Jews around the world, from Pittsburgh, to Paris, to Israel. All forms of antisemitism must be countered to ensure a safe and secure Jewish future.

Listen to the entire series at AJC.org/TreeofLife.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Eric Lidji, Carole Zawatsky, Howard Fienberg, Marnie Fienberg, Belle Yoeli, Anne Jolly, Ted Deutch

Show Notes:

Music Credits:

• Relent by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com),  Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

• Virtual Violin Virtuoso by techtheist is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License

• Tree of Life by Nefesh Mountain

• Shloime Balsam - Lo Lefached

• Hevenu Shalom - Violin Heart

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman: Last month, the Senate earmarked $1 million in federal funding to create a curriculum for students about antisemitism and other forms of discrimination and bigotry. The recipient of that money? An organization that knows the consequences of that hatred all too well: the newly imagined Tree of Life, an education center dedicated to ending antisemitism that emerged after 11 worshipers inside Tree of Life synagogue were murdered by a white supremacist on October 27, 2018. 

This week, we are presenting a compilation of our award-winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, which launched on October 5, 2023 -- right before the October 7th terrorist attacks in Israel. 

Listen to the series at AJC.org/TreeofLife.

__

Episode 1, which originally aired on October 5,  takes you inside the Tree of Life building before it was demolished to make way for a new complex dedicated to Jewish life and combating antisemitism. 

Eric Lidji: Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting. It’s ever-present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who I'm sure have not fully reckoned with it yet.

Carole Zawatsky: It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Five years have gone by since the horrific Shabbat morning at Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life Synagogue, when eleven congregants were gunned down during prayer – volunteers, scholars, neighbors, doing what they always did: joining their Jewish community at shul. 

Today, we take you to the Tree of Life building that stands on the corner of Shady and Wilkins Avenues in Pittsburgh’s Squirrel Hill neighborhood to hear from two people in charge of preserving the artifacts and memories of the vibrant Jewish life that unfolded inside those walls until October 27, 2018. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: In early September, our producer Atara Lakritz and I visited the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh’s Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Squirrel Hill, where Jews have settled since the 1920s, is quite literally Mister Rogers’ neighborhood. We were there to interview those touched by the events of October 27. But it didn’t take us long to figure out that everyone there had been affected in some way. 

All along Murray Avenue, in 61C Cafe, at Pinsker’s Judaica Shoppe, at the Giant Eagle supermarket, when we told people why we were there, they all had a story, an acquaintance, a connection. 

Later, walking through the glass doors of the synagogue felt like we were stepping through a portal, traveling back five years, when life stopped, and the reality of the hatred and terror that unfolded there began to haunt every step. 

Atara and I were invited to accompany a final group tour of the building before it closed in order for preparations to begin for the building’s demolition. The tour was painful, but we felt it necessary to share with our listeners. 

As we left the lobby, we were told to take the stairs to the left. The stairs to the right were off limits. Someone had been shot there. 

We were led to a small, dark storage room where chairs had been stacked for guests. A handful of people had hidden there as the shooter continued his rampage, but one man walked out too soon, thinking it was safe. When first responders later came to get the others, they had to step over his body. 

In the kitchen, there were still marks on the wall where the bullets ricocheted when he shot two women hiding underneath a metal cabinet. The calendar on the wall there was still turned to October 2018 with a list of activities that were happening that week posted alongside it. 

And in the Pervin Chapel where seven people died, pews punctured with bullet holes and carpet squares stained with blood were no longer there. No ark either. 

But remarkably, the stained glass windows remained with images and symbols of Jewish contributions to America, the land to which the ancestors of so many worshipers once inside that synagogue had fled to and found safety. Those windows will be carefully removed by the son of the man who first installed them 70 years ago. And they will return, when the reimagined Tree of Life rises again.  

Carole Zawatsky: The tragedy is a Pittsburgh experience. But it's also every Jew’s experience. It shattered for so many of us our sense of security in America. This is our safe haven. This is where we came to.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole Zawatsky is the inaugural CEO of the reimagined Tree of Life. Since November 2022, she has overseen the development of a new complex on the hallowed ground: an education center dedicated to ending antisemitism, including a new home for the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh; a memorial to the lives lost that Shabbat morning; a dedicated synagogue space where the Tree of Life congregation can return.

Carole Zawatsky: What can we build to enrich Jewish life, to remember this tragedy, and to show the world that we as Jews should not be known only by our killers and our haters, we should be known by our joy, our celebrations, our rituals, our resilience.

__

Manya Brachear Pashman: Next, hear from the son and daughter in law of Joyce Fienberg, one of the 11 victims. In this second installment of our series, we sit down with Joyce's son, Howard Fienberg, and his wife, Marnie, as they share their journey of mourning and resilience.

After her husband and mother died in 2016, Joyce Fienberg started each day at Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, to recite Kaddish, the mourner's prayer. Even when she was no longer officially considered a mourner as Jewish tradition prescribes, 11 months, she continued to attend services each morning at the synagogue. 

That's why Howard Feinberg knew his mother Joyce was at Tree of Life when he heard there had been a shooting there on the morning of October 27, 2018. It would be more than 12 hours before he learned she was among the 11 killed that day. 

Howard and his wife Marnie are with us now from their home in Northern Virginia.

Howard, you followed your mother’s example and recited kaddish for 11 months. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? That experience of saying Kaddish and mourning for your mother, and also can you share with our listeners why it felt like the mourning period was extended?

Howard Fienberg: I felt a huge amount of support everywhere I went, in order to be able to say Kaddish every day. Which for someone who was not the most observant of Jews, it was a big lift to be able to do that every day. In fact, even when traveling in disparate places, that I could always find, somehow, be able to pull together 10 people to be able to say Kaddish was a big deal. And I wanted to make sure that no one would struggle in similar circumstances as well. 

Obviously, initially, in Pittsburgh putting together 10 people was not a particularly big lift. Because the community support in that first week of Shiva was phenomenal. But it's not an easy thing in many congregations, and I think we are fortunate in mine that we always seem to pull it out every day. But I want to make sure that it happens. So in practice wise, that's one of the biggest things, my involvement with the synagogue, and prayer. 

The broader extension of the mourning period, in a way, was a result of the constant delay of the trial for the monster that committed the massacre. And that was a result of both just the general usual procedural delays that you would expect, combined with COVID excuses that dragged things out during the trial. And once a new judge took over responsibility for this case, things suddenly snapped into gear and it moved forward. And we're particularly grateful for the judge in this case, just for his very no-nonsense approach moving forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Can you talk about whether the guilty verdict once it did take place, and a verdict was delivered, how that verdict changed anything for you and your family?

Howard Fienberg: It was a matter of relief, to a great extent. I sat through almost the entirety of the trial, heard and saw all of the evidence. A lot more than I expected to and ever wanted to, but I felt duty to do so. From an outside perspective, looking at it all, you would say this is a slam dunk case, lined up for all the federal hate crimes that were involved. And at the same time, I was in doubt until the jury came back and said, all said guilty. It's just the nature of things. I was on pins and needles. Massive relief afterwards and the same thing with the final verdict and sentencing. Massive relief for us and our families. 

And that did allow…nothing's ever closed. You don’t finish feeling the loss of somebody, especially when they're taken in, you know, horribly violent terrorist circumstances. But you move from segment to segment. So the same as we do in the year of mourning, you're moving from shiva, which is one kind of thing, to the 30 days, and then to the end of the mourning period. And this was moving to yet another period. And what exactly this is and how long it will be, I don't know. But we're figuring that out as we go. I certainly feel a lot more relaxed.

Marnie Fienberg: Feels a little lighter.

Howard Fienberg: Yes, definitely lighter.

Manya Brachear Pashman: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I am curious, you said you felt a duty to listen to those details, even though you didn't want to. Can you explain why you felt that sense of obligation?

Howard Fienberg: Part of it is, somebody in our family needed to. And it wasn't something that I wanted everybody to sit and hear and see. And I specifically told friends and family as much as I could, to stay far away and said, as much as you want to know, I'll let you know. But otherwise, it's horrific. And it wasn't anything that I would wish for anybody to see and hear. But at the same time, it's the reality of how my mom died. And what the circumstances were, what was going on with the antisemitic conspiracy theories that drove the monster that killed her. And what did he have in mind, and what was his intention, what did he plan, what did he do? These were important things. 

And the bigger picture, which I didn't even know going in, was the extent to which the police in Pittsburgh were so heroic. And while they were not able to save my mom, they saved other people, including friends of ours, and people who are now friends, who would not be alive if those cops had not tried to charge at the front door trying to charge the building and getting shot. 

And then the SWAT teams going into the building, and in a couple cases getting almost murdered themselves, trying to rescue the people that were inside. And they did rescue some people. And those people would most likely be dead if the SWAT had not rushed in. Equipment wise, they were not ready ordinarily for this sort of situation. But they went in anyways because they knew they needed to, and they didn't hesitate. And that's the kind of thing that you can only understand, having gone to the trial and learned what went on. 

___

Manya Brachear Pashman: In the third installment, we look back at how horror drew people to solidarity. We interviewed Belle Yoeli, AJC chief advocacy officer, as well as others who showed up for Shabbat. 

Belle Yoeli: We saw hundreds of thousands of people show up. And we saw pictures later, after the fact, and videos, and people making speeches, and just so much solidarity. This was captured on the news. I think it really stands out as one of the most amazing responses to antisemitism that we've seen in modern history.

Manya Brachear Pashman: On October 27, 2018, Americans witnessed the deadliest antisemitic attack in this nation’s history. The senseless slaughter inside a house of worship devastated and shocked American senses because it was simply unAmerican. But the aftermath of the atrocity became an American moment when so many people showed up – showed up with hugs, showed up with flowers, showed up with prayers for their Jewish neighbors. 

The most visible expression of this came a week after the massacre with the unprecedented turnout of people of all faiths at synagogues across the nation as part of AJC’s #ShowUpForShabbat campaign. Together, Americans sent a message that hate will not prevail.

Belle Yoeli: Everyone wanted to do something, and the entire Jewish community mobilized to make this happen with the understanding that as AJC has always said that antisemitism is not just about the Jewish community. It starts with the Jewish community, but it's a threat to democracy, and the murder of Jews in their religious institution is such a breaking, a fracturing of everything that the United States stands for, everything that democratic society stands for.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Today, Belle Yoeli is the chief advocacy officer for AJC. In 2018, she worked as the chief of staff for then AJC CEO David Harris. David had spent nearly 20 years counseling European leaders on the rise of antisemitism in their midst, calling their attention to violent crimes against Jews when conflict erupted between Israel and their Arab neighbors.

Belle was on her way to a nephew’s birthday party when she got the call on October 27 about what had happened in Pittsburgh. She remembers sobbing in the car on the phone with colleagues as they all grappled with the reality that whether they were regular shul-goers or had just happened to go to synagogue to celebrate a friend’s bar mitzvah that day – it just as easily could’ve been them. For many, what they needed now was to go to shul and not be afraid, and to see others, not just their own community, but others of all faiths in the pews alongside them. What they needed most now was to know they were not alone. So they drew up a plan.

Belle Yoeli: A couple members of our staff actually kind of simultaneously came up with a similar idea, which was that we need to, more than anything, rally non-Jews to come and support the Jewish community at this time, and what better time to do that than the following Shabbat.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Dubbed #ShowUpForShabbat, the social media-based campaign called on both Jews and those of other faiths to flock to synagogues that coming Shabbat on the weekend of November 2 in support of the Pittsburgh Jewish community and all of American Jewry. The response across 80 countries was astounding.

Manya Brachear Pashman: We connected with people who showed up that Shabbat five years ago, and ask them what the experience meant to them. 

Anne Jolly: An important part of what we proclaim is love God, love your neighbor, change the world. And so we believe that means, we show up for each other. We can't love each other without being present with each other. So we have to be together. You have to show up.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Episcopal Bishop of Ohio Anne Jolly was serving as the rector of St. Gregory Episcopal Church in Deerfield, Illinois in October 2018. A former hospital chaplain, she was sitting in her office when she heard the news break that Saturday morning. Her first call was to her friend and colleague Rabbi Karyn Kedar down the road at the Reform temple commonly known as Congregation BJBE. Rabbi Kedar had recently preached at St. Gregory and then-Pastor Jolly was scheduled to deliver the guest sermon at BJBE the following Friday night.

Anne Jolly: I called her and we talked and we prayed. And I said to Karyn, I think probably you need to preach on the Shabbat following the shooting at your temple and she said, ‘I want you to do it.’ She said ‘I think I think we need to hear your voice and that the congregation needs to hear you.

Rabbi Kedar I think thought that to hear a voice of someone who is not Jewish saying aloud, We love you, we care for you. We believe we are all created in God's image together. And that means we need to show up for each other. It means we need to be present with each other, that to hear that from someone who was not part of their community might be more powerful, more impactful, and more important for the community here at that time.

Manya Brachear Pashman: When Bishop Jolly arrived that following Friday she did not expect her sudden sense of fear when she encountered armed guards.

Anne Jolly: I didn't realize I was afraid until I walked in the door. And I stopped and had to take a deep breath and realize that I was afraid because I was entering into a space of people who have long been afraid. And that I had never had to experience that before in that way. And I wasn't really afraid for my congregation the same way I was for my beloveds in the synagogue, that they had more of a reason to be afraid than I did. And that was all the more reason for me to be there, and to be present with them.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Bishop Jolly credits that night at BJBE for the deep connection that formed with the congregation. In fact, she returned to BJBE many more times to celebrate Shabbat. Precisely a year later, the members of the Jewish congregation showed up at her door after a pumpkin patch at St. Gregory had been destroyed by vandals.

Anne Jolly: There were a bunch of them that came to our patch and we were talking about it and they said, ‘We just wanted to show you that we are supporting you. And they were worried that that vandalism had been an act of aggression against us. And I just thought it was kids. And that was a really clear distinction of how our worldviews are different. For them, a vandalism thing would, of course, of course, be something hateful against them. In this case, it was children, it was just teenagers being dumb. But it reinforced that understanding that for them, fear is always in the background because of the violence perpetrated to them – again and again and again.

___

Manya Brachear Pashman: For this closing episode of the series, I sat down with AJC CEO Ted Deutch, who served as a congressman at the time of the Tree of Life massacre. We discussed this anniversary and its parallels to the October 7 attack on Israel, when once again Jews were murdered just for being Jewish.

Ted, where were you on the morning of October 27, 2018 when you heard about the Tree of Life?   

Ted Deutch: I was a congressman who represented Parkland, where the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas took place. And the morning of Tree of Life, I spoke to a group of high school students from all around South Florida, who participated in a program about how they can become leaders in the community. I spoke with them about what had happened a few months before in Parkland, and what I had seen from high school students in Parkland and how they responded and how you stand up to violence and try to stop it and how you respond to evil and how important it is to use the power that you have as young people. That was literally what I was doing right before I walked out of the Florida Atlantic University auditorium and saw my phone start to buzz with news of Tree of Life.

Everything that I had said to the students in the discussion, that really difficult conversation we had with these students who shared with me their fears of violence, their fears of going to school–those fears hit home really hard for me and for the Jewish community. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: So in our first episode of this series, our producer Atara Lakritz and I went on the last tour of the Tree of Life building. You also walked through the building back in June, before many of the artifacts had been removed. Would you mind reflecting on that experience?

Ted Deutch: I couldn't help but think of my synagogue where I grew up on the other side of Pennsylvania in a lovely community, like Pittsburgh. I was struck that, forget that this was a synagogue, I really couldn't stop thinking that it was inconceivable that that kind of horrible tragedy could happen in a community like that. 

And walking through the synagogue and seeing the site where hatred, and antisemitism, and manifestations, the worst manifestations of antisemitism were brought to this lovely place, in this wonderful synagogue. It was overwhelming to think about what was happening that Shabbat and the fear and terror that people felt as that was happening. That was number one.

Secondly, I walked into the main auditorium where they were gathering all of the things that hadn't yet been taken away to be used in the museum and the memorial that's going to be constructed, that haven't been given back to families. 

There were lots of things that are just not identified, they don't have families to return them to. And to see tallaisim and tefillin and all kinds of items that are used for Jewish rituals and Jewish customs just sitting on this table where they didn't know what they were going to do with them because the synagogue that existed there, the life that existed there, that simple, wonderful community, that was gone. It was gone. 

That community will never be the same. And I think for our community, for the Jewish community, we're really never gonna be the same after what happened there.

Manya Brachear Pashman: You were telling me before we started this conversation that they gave you something during your visit.

Ted Deutch: As I walked through, and they saw how moved I was by this massive display. They came over and made such a kind gesture to me. And of all of the gifts that I've received in all of my travels, as a member of Congress, and now as CEO of AJC, I don't think there's anything that’s as meaningful as the tefillin that they gave me.

I don't know, obviously, I don't know whose it was. And it may well have been someone that was a synagogue member years and years ago. But the connection that I felt at that moment to that community at Tree of Life and the connection that I felt thinking about, not just Tree of Life, but tragedies that have befallen the Jewish people throughout our history. 

And knowing that I was going to return to New York, I was going to have the opportunity to join the Jewish community around the world in overcoming these tragedies, and making sure the world understands why these kinds of attacks will never, they'll never work, they'll never, they'll never defeat the Jewish community. As we endure this really challenging time now in Israel, I've been thinking the same thing.

We've gone through a lot in our history, and we've constantly, constantly overcome, and have grown and have learned and have continued to enrich the world. As Tree of Life rebuilds and will help shape a national and international conversation for years to come about fighting antisemitism. And as we continue to do our work and as Jews around the country and around the world go through whatever security measures they have to to go to synagogue and to drop their kids at day school and Hebrew school and for people to show up for programs at the JCC, there is a defiance that I felt at that moment that is perhaps the most important thing I took away from that day.

Because it was awful. But I'm not going to dwell on how terrible it was. We're going to think about every way we can to honor the memories of the lives that were taken, and to strengthen the Jewish people in their memory as we go forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman: We planned this series and invited you to speak before the October 7th terrorist attack in Israel and the war with Hamas that has unfolded since. At first we wondered whether we should even proceed with this series. How could we focus on anything other than Israel at this moment? Of course, the parallels between the Tree of Life and October 7th are all too stark– Jews are once again being targeted simply because they are Jewish. Can you share your thoughts on this difficult moment for the Jewish people?

Ted Deutch: That sense of unease that all of us felt when we heard that story, like how could that possibly happen in the United States, really, it's an unease and fear that we feel when we've watched what's happened in Israel and when a horrific and brutal and barbaric attack takes place against our family, our brothers and sisters in Israel, we feel that here, and especially when it was, it was unthinkable what happened with this Hamas attack. Just as somebody shooting up a synagogue was unthinkable in America, it again, it puts us on edge, and it makes us redouble our efforts. Not just to fight antisemitism, but to really bring the community together.

What I've really been proud of since this terrible time in Israel began is the way that AJC has responded, not just in putting out meaningful information to help people get the facts and get through this, and to fight back against lies. But the way that we've really worked to bring the community together. 

There are 16 million Jews in the world, out of eight and a half billion people we need to stick together. Moments like Tree of Life remind us of that, and what's been happening in Israel absolutely reminds us of that. That informs so much of what AJC does, and has done in response to Tree of Life and certainly is doing in response to the current situation.

Hear from two Jewish student leaders at Binghamton University, Seth Schlank and Eytan Saenger, on their experiences amidst rising antisemitism on college campuses in the aftermath of the October 7 massacre in Israel by Hamas. They discuss the strong sense of community among Jewish students on campus, the value of a supportive university administration, and the power of Jewish student-led movements to counter antisemitism. The students also touch on the Binghamton community’s show of solidarity with hostage Omer Neutra, a friend of many, who deferred acceptance to Binghamton before spending a gap year in Israel and enlisting in the IDF.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Seth Schlank, Eytan Saenger

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Seth Schlank and Eytan Saenger:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

According to a recent survey by Hillel, a majority of Jewish college students (56%) say their lives have been directly touched by antisemitism on campus since October 7. Likewise, AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that 20% of current and recent students reported feeling or being excluded from a group or event because they’re Jewish. That figure was only 12% in 2022. That’s one of the reasons AJC and HIllel expanded a partnership this week to improve that climate on college campuses and make sure university administrators know how to support their Jewish students. 

We wanted to know what a supportive campus environment looks like. Here to give a student perspective are Eytan Saenger and Seth Schlank, two Jewish student leaders at Binghamton University, the flagship State University of New York. 

Seth, Eytan: welcome to People of the Pod.

Seth Schlank:  

Thank you. 

Eytan Saenger:  

Thanks for having us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm hoping you can share with our listeners what it's been like to be Jewish on campus there in Binghamton. Can you kind of give us a picture of Jewish life on campus both before and after the October 7 attacks on Israel by Hamas?

Eytan Saenger:  

So the Jewish community at Binghamton is known to be one which is very strong. There's roughly over 4000 Jewish students overall. Many students are active in Jewish life. On Friday night, you can find over 500 students having dinner at Chabad, you can find hundreds of students involved in prayers, either on a daily basis or over Shabbat or different holidays and things like that. Events that you see on campus with the Jewish community are packed and bustling all the time. You walk to class, you see people with kippot, Israeli flags. Really, you know that you're a part of a college that is a place that is welcome for Jewish students.

And certainly on October 7, was something that was needed for us as a community to know that we have people to turn to and, obviously, we're in the middle, we were in the midst of celebrating a holiday, which is supposed to be a joyous holiday, celebrating the beginning anew of the reading of the Torah, we were supposed to be dancing, singing, having food, having a good time. But instead that very quickly turned into a realization of the facts and things going on in Israel. 

Acknowledging that there was the most Jews killed in a single day since the Holocaust, which of course dampened the mood of, especially for people like myself, who had just spent a year in Israel, the previous year. And felt such a deep connection to the people of Israel, to the land, to the whole fabric of the society there, and have family there, and things like that, where it's like, really, there was a worry of everything that was going on and trouble and processing everything that was happening. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

What was the response on campus in the aftermath? 

Eytan Saenger:  

We saw the whole community come together. Within the first 24 hours after the holiday ended, we held a vigil in main campus with over 700 students gathered from the community, people from outside the community as well, who were there to stand united, together. Our Rabbi actually where Seth and I, where we go to a lot of the prayers on Shabbat and the community we’re part of, the OU-JLIC community, he actually went back to reserves to fight in Israel within 24 hours and was fighting there and was actually away from Binghamton, away from the students in the community, away from his wife, away from his family for almost eight weeks, in the immediate aftermath. And so that definitely had an impact on us and was something on our minds continuing throughout everything that was going on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I’m going to interrupt you here and note for listeners that You’re talking about Rabbi Ben Menora of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Learning Initiative on Campus, a father of 5, and a commander in an IDF infantry reserve unit. Go on please.

Eytan Saenger:  

But we were able to look towards the fellow people in our community, who you felt the responsibility for knowing that we were all going through a tough time together and knowing that we all had some connection one way or another to things that were going on. And so people were there for each other, people continue to be there for each other and people are still doing things to be there for each other as the war continues to progress. 

And I'm sure we'll go more into this later on, but also the fact that we had an administration who from day one showed up for the community, was at the vigil on day one was at Chabad, the first few weeks, and really went out of their way to show that we know what just happened, we acknowledge the severity of it. And we are here for the Jewish community, even when, and this has been explicitly said by the president himself, even when we know that other administrations at other universities are not there for you at the same time, but we know it's our responsibility to be there for you.

Seth Schlank:  

Yeah, I would say in all aspects of a community, whether you're walking down the Spine, the main part of campus, you see all these Jewish students, whether it's an organization who's tabeling for event that has a connection to Israel, or it's the administration showing up at Hillel for dinner, to spend some time and just talk with you about how you're doing, and how you how the administration is doing their part in making this tragedy and calamity in Israel. Um, for us being so far away, having a very large support system and be able to have someone who we know has our back is amazing.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As we’ve learned, no university is immune from antisemitism. I understand the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement has tried to make inroads there in Binghamton this year; some students have encountered antisemitism online or at protests and hostage posters have been ripped down. So it’s by no means peachy keen.

Eytan Saenger:  

So definitely, as Seth and I have both said, we are very proud of the strong Jewish community we have here. At the same time, of course, there are still things which are on the minds of students when going about their lives on campus. In terms of whether it's a rally held, chanting slogans, which obviously do not make use for students feel any more welcome on campus.

Whether it's an event that was being hosted with a pro-Israel speaker that was met with signs around a room, saying that you guys are complicit in genocide or things like that, which definitely make students think twice, sometimes about, Okay, do I want to be going to this event? Am I in a class with a professor who may judge me a certain way, because I share my stance or things like that? And so that's definitely, unfortunately, not something that we can say does not exist here at Binghamton. 

There have been circumstances of protests, of specific incidents that have occurred, where different students feel different ways about those incidents about those protests and things like that. And some are, let's say more nervous when they walk around and things like that. But I think what we both agree on here is the fact that the overall nature of the campus climate and with the administration support has been one comparatively more welcoming towards Jewish students.

I personally do not feel scared to walk around campus with my kippa on, I'm not hiding my Judaism when I'm walking around campus. Which doesn't doesn't overshadow the fact that there are incidents which cannot be ignored and cannot be understated, but it's definitely something that is presently being thought about.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Eytan, you mentioned that you spent time in Israel between high school and college. Is that common among the Jewish community at Binghamton?  

Eytan Saenger:  

Yeah, so, both Seth and I have spent gap years in Israel, there's a really significant population of Jewish students here who have spent gap years. Also because Binghamton gives credit for spending a gap year in Israel, which is a really helpful tool to a lot of students, who, let's say, are really interested in taking a gap year, but are worried about it delaying their college process more. 

My program alone, last year, I was at Orayta, which is a yeshiva in the Old City of Jerusalem. And there's eight students at Binghamton who were on my program alone last year, and there are plenty of others from different programs across the country, who are at Binghamton as freshmen and then, of course, later on as well. And so that connection to Israel, of course, is stronger for those who spent a full year there. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I do want to highlight that there is a personal connection between Binghamton and the horrors that unfolded on October 7. Seth, you are friends with the family of Omer Neutra, one of the eight remaining American hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza. He was accepted to Binghamton with plans to attend but joined the Israel Defense Forces during his Gap Year. Seth, what else can you tell us about Omer?

Seth Schlank:  

I've always looked up to Omer, as someone who really understood and knew what it meant to lead. I was a member of his USY chapter when he was the president, when he was on board there. And he moved up a level. And he came on the board of the division, the Long Island division. Then he eventually became the president of the entire [USY] New York region. 

And I think that for me, it was really always natural to see him at the forefront in the room, but also being able to have a conversation with everyone in the room and being able to make everyone there, laugh, smile, and really be proud of themselves and be proud of their Judaism. 

Omer also valued Israel of course, I mean, that was probably one of his, still is, one of his main connections, one of his driving forces. Both his parents are Israelis, he's the grandson of Holocaust survivors. He was always smiling. He really enjoyed, you know, friends, family, basketball, big sports guy overall. 

And we know that he had a connection to Binghamton, and we know that he was accepted here and we want to make sure that this was a place where we can acknowledge that and acknowledge that it's not 5000 miles away. This is something that has happened right in our own campus and someone that we know that we can bring to the forefront.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And that brings me to the event in the university's basketball arena last month, it was organized by the Zionist Organization there at Binghamton and Omer Neutra’s family. Can you tell us a little bit about how many people participated and who participated?

Seth Schlank:  

Yeah sure. So before the event, we had a gathering in the parking lot of the event center where the game was being played. We had about, say 150-200 people at the game itself. So we all gather in the parking lot. We heard from Shira Kohler, who is a family friend of Omer. And whose brother [Ira] is a lone soldier in Tzanchanim, he fought in Be’eri in the first days of the war. Ira’s fighting for Omer and all the hostages. Ira’s time in Gaza is very personal. 

And Hannah Slavsky, another one of Omer’s friends from Plainview, who grew up with us. As well as Bailey Kahn, whose brother was on the volleyball team, where Omer was a captain. 

And they all spoke about different parts of Omer and about who he was. And then we finally heard from Omer’s father Ronan made the trip out to Binghamton and was able to kind of bring us all together and share a bit about his son and was able to thank us for our tireless work. 

Obviously we want to thank him but we were definitely doing this really, all for all Omer. Every single part of this event was something that we wanted to make sure that like Omer was present at. So from there we went down to the basketball game. 

Throughout the game, we held up signs,with pictures of Omer from his time in high school, where he was wearing his Binghamton gear. And showcasing him and his connection to this university, really made it a special event. We had the tagline, the hashtag Bing Stands with Omer. 

And really, that was the whole main part of the event was that we are here with him with his father, with his family, and we're here for you, Omer. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The pictures I saw of the fans at the basketball game were so incredibly moving. The spectators holding up pictures of Omer as if they were watching the game with him, it was really quite sweet to see. Were most of the students who participated in the event Jewish? 

Seth Schlank:  

I think while we had a lot of Jewish students, there were definitely a couple non-Jewish friends who were able to join. A lot of students grew up in that New York area here. So a lot of them felt connected, Jewish students felt connected. Or they went to this camp, worked at Ramah Nyack, went to Solomon Schechter, and was part of USY. 

So a lot of people here know him through one facet of life or another. And so a lot of students that necessarily had that connection, and also kids who had never known him, as well as other Jewish students and non-Jewish students who joined us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How has the university’s connection to Omer affected the climate there on campus? 

Eytan Saenger:  

So, as I mentioned, from the first 24 hours of October 7, the community here was immediately getting together and putting together different rallies, different vigils, different events, and things like that. But there's something a lot more special, about an event where you have a personal connection too, right?  often at the rallies at the marches and things like that. You hear the phrase, right? These hostages are our brothers, sisters, friends, and things like that. 

And right when our peers and they're walking on campus and they see us, they see us holding signs like that as well. But for us, it's really not hyperbole to say that we have friends there we have family there, because there are people on this campus who are family friends with the Neutras, who know Omar personally, and really when they're saying they want to bring their friends home, they are talking about someone who is their friend, who is someone they've spent time with and they're talking about someone who they've played sports with and want to continue playing sports with. 

So it's really not an exaggeration, or just something that we're merely saying but really a reality of the situation here that there are people like Omer, who are still held hostage, who have personal connections to people across the country.

The reason this issue and the reason this conflict is making such an impact and is something that people are investing so much time and advocating for is because of that reality of who is still held hostage and the connection that they have. 

And that has certainly shifted and shaped the way that we have come together here at Binghamton and the way we have advocated. And in fact, after we had hosted the basketball game event for Omer, which had received coverage locally, Congressman Mark Molinero, who represents Binghamton actually went to the House floor and made a speech about Omer about his situation, and about the fact that he chose to come to Binghamton University. Based on the advocacy of the community here. And based on the things that we've been doing, to really put his name at the forefront of our efforts and in the forefront of why we care about what's going on.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm curious, and this question is for you, Seth, since you played such a key role in organizing that event in the basketball arena. And you spoke about Omer being such a leader. And I'm curious if these events of the last several months and missing Omer have propelled you into kind of an unexpected leadership role that you never saw yourself in?

Seth Schlank:  

So I think as a leader, I definitely would say, in the roles I’ve held since high school, whether it's been the chapter president of my USY, or the president of the Jewish student union chapter in Plainview, or now in my role on the JLIC executive board here in Binghamton. It's been something that I've always wanted to do and something I've always saw myself as someone who wants to approach people across the room and want to make sure that everyone feels like they could go up and speak.

I think since October 7th, all the leaders that I've been able to look up to in addition to Omer, being able to see that each one of them has brought me to where I am today. Brought me to a place where I feel comfortable being a leader, want to grow myself as a leader even more. And someone who really I think has been a part of that is Omer.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, I'm sure his family so appreciated what the community there in Binghamton did. The pictures I saw of the event in that arena, were just incredibly moving. And I'm sure that when he sees them, he will be incredibly moved as well, when he comes home. So thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us.

Eytan Saenger:  

Thanks for having us. 

Seth Schlank: 

Yes, thank you really for having us. It’s been a pleasure to share our story and Omer’s story.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to listen to my conversation with Grammy-nominated reggae singer, rapper, and beatboxer Matisyahu. We discussed what makes him Jewish and proud, the impact of October 7 on his musical and spiritual journey and how at almost every show on his current national tour, he has faced anti-Israel protests. The prospect of such protests led three venues to cancel his shows.

“The Jewish people don't really give up. They’re fighters. … a vision of peace, and a vision of hope, and of empathy. I really, truly believe that that is at the core of who we are. And that is what we are actually fighting for.”

Matisyahu’s recent show in Chicago was canceled due to the threat of anti-Israel protests.

The Jewish American singer’s music has evolved alongside his Jewish identity. But one thing has always been clear: He believes in Israel's right to exist. Because of that, he has faced protests at almost every show on his current national tour, and some have even been canceled.

Hear from Matisyahu on his musical and religious journey, especially since October 7, and what makes him Jewish and proud.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Matisyahu

Show Notes:

Song Credits, all by Matisyahu:

• One Day 

• Jerusalem

• Fireproof

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Matisyahu:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Matisyahu is a Jewish American reggae singer, rapper and beatboxer, whose musical style and genre have evolved alongside how he practices and expresses his Jewish identity. But one thing has always been clear. He believes in Israel's right to exist, and he has expressed that repeatedly since the October 7 Hamas terror attack on Israel. 

Since then, he has performed in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. He has performed for the families of hostages and for students at Columbia University as a show of solidarity for those who have faced a torrent of antisemitism there. But there are places where he has not performed, including Santa Fe, New Mexico, Tucson, Arizona and Chicago, but not for lack of trying. 

Those shows were canceled by the venue's because of the threat of protests. Matisyahu is with us now to discuss these cancellations and what's behind them. Matis, welcome to People of the Pod.

Matisyahu:  

Hello, People of the Pod.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So first of all, I want to introduce you to those in our audience who might not be familiar with your music. And we'll start with the anthem that I associate most with you. And that is One Day. Can you tell us a little bit about how that song came about–when and why?

Matisyahu:  

Well, that song was written in around 2010, I want to say or nine, maybe 2008 or nine. And I was working on my second studio album. It's called Light. And we had turned in the album and the new record executives didn't feel like we had any hits on the album. The album had been based on this story of Reb Nachman of Breslov called The Seven Beggars. And it was a bit of a concept album. 

So I went to LA and I worked with a couple of writers and tried to write a hit song. And that's what we came up with was One Day, and that song got used in the Olympics in 2010, Winter Olympics on the NBC commercials. So that's kind of what propelled that song into popularity.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Popular, yes. But what does One Day mean to you?

Matisyahu:  

A lot of my music is very positive and very much connected to this vision of a Messianic future of peace. You know, at the time, I was very religious. And in my particular group, Chabad Hasidism, the idea of a Messiah was very prevalent in the philosophy. 

I was living in a space of a vision of a future where the wolf lies down with the lamb and people turn their weapons into plowshares. And that was the thing that I was praying for and trying to envision daily. And so that was the main message of that song at the time. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It is certainly something we’ve always needed, especially now. 

You grew up in White Plains, NY, in the Reconstructionist tradition, I believe. You found your way to Chabad. Can you talk a little bit about where you are in your spiritual journey now, these days.

Matisyahu:  

I went through a very, very intense relationship with Orthodox Judaism, Chassidus. I started from a home, from a Reconstructionist background, so not Chassidus, for anyone who doesn't know these terms. More of a reform kind of background. And I went to Israel when I was 16, on a Conservative trip where I spent three months there, which had a profound effect on me. 

And then when I was in college, about 21, 20 years old or so, is when I started really exploring the more Orthodox side of Judaism, and started out with the Carlebach shul, on the Upper West Side, and his music and reading books about Shlomo Carlebach, and the type of person he was and what type of work he was doing. And then from there, I pretty much jumped into Chabad, and moved to Crown Heights and lived in the yeshiva there on Eastern Parkway for a couple of years. And all of that, sort of prior to Matisyahu the singer coming out. 

And then I spent many years, within 10 years or so, sort of exploring Chabad and then Breslov and different types of Hasidism. Different types of Chassidus within that realm. 

And I guess at some point, it started to feel a little bit, not constructive for me to be there and felt more claustrophobic. And I felt that I was not really connecting so much anymore with a lot of the ideas and a lot of the rules. And so I started to just kind of live more of like a normal life, I guess, or a non-religious life. 

And I'm still doing my music and making my music and writing from a place of deep Jewish yearning, empathy, and hope, you know, and using lots of the canon of the Old Testament still, to use as metaphors in my lyric, writing, and stuff like that. 

But more focused on more of a humanistic kind of approach to the world, less concerned with my religion, or God, or being Jewish and more concerned with, you know, writing about being a father or a husband, or dealing with addiction, or dealing with loneliness, or dealing with different ups and downs of life. So that for me was a process going through that over the last maybe 15 years or so. 

And then after October 7, you know, I mean, I've had some issues before, in 2015, with the BDS. I was thrown off of a festival. And so there again, I felt a very strong sense of Jewish pride when that happened. And especially like, when I went to Israel, after that had happened, I felt this sort of new connection with Israelis in the sense that a lot of them, writers, singers, actors, whoever, get shut down when they go overseas to try to perform. And so I felt like I had a strong connection with them and understanding of what some of them go through. And I guess that only reinforced my connection with Israel. 

Then after October 7 happened, it's been this very, very strong pull back towards feeling very Jewish and feeling like that is the center and the core of who I am, and especially right now, that's what feels the most powerful and authentic to me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you have been to Israel since October 7, performing for soldiers on bases, hospitals, visiting some of the kibbutzim targeted by Hamas, the Nova festival site. Did it scare you to walk those sites? Can you share how you felt or what you took away from that experience?

Matisyahu:  

I don't know that I was scared when I was there. I was obviously touched profoundly by the stories that I heard and what I saw firsthand, so it was more of a feeling of just destruction. And then just seeing these incredible human beings that had just survived and are just the most amazing people. 

And then there was this feeling of hope and this feeling of wow, look how these people come together and how I'm a part of that, and that became a really strong place for me in terms of finding hope for my tour and going out into America. And dealing with cancellations and protesters and stuff like that. 

So I really wanted to try to grab that feeling that I had when I was in Israel and sort of bottle it up and take it with me and sort of get drunk on it at my shows with everybody and make everyone feel like there's a place where they can feel comfortable to be Jewish, and they can feel okay with being a supporter of Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you feel that your colleagues in the music industry understand that and understand where you're coming from? 

Matisyahu:  

Well, some people seem to silently understand it, and I'll get some texts and stuff from some people here and there. But no, I don't think people do. I think there's really for the most part, as you see, the mainstream art world and music world either doesn't know where they sit, or they're not supporters of Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think if they went to Israel, they would have a different perspective on that, that it would shift that mindset?

Matisyahu:  

Absolutely. I mean, any person like, in my band, who's ever come to Israel, been with me, who's not Jewish, or is Jewish, but has had no connection, like didn't have parents or grandparents that taught them about Israel. Or didn't have that experience of going to Israel, like I did when I was 16. I think anyone who goes to Israel feels a connection to this, and especially, especially now, you know, there's no way to deny it. I don't think.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So, is it important for Jewish celebrities in particular, or influencers, to speak out about the violence on October 7?

Matisyahu:  

See, I think it's important, because it's important to me, you know. But what I've learned is, there's no point in getting angry at people thinking that it should be important to them, if it's not important to them. And if they're not speaking out, and it's because of fear, then the fear is larger than how important it is to them. 

And everyone has to deal with their own stuff, you know, but to me, it seems that the fact that there's such a lack of people speaking out is a symptom of a sickness that the Jewish people may have been carrying, that just seemed dormant for some time, which is that somehow that it wasn't important to to a lot of American Jews.

So for me, it was just like, tapping into what is the feeling after October 7, and it was immediate, and it was in my bones and in the depth of the core of my being. And I feel very blessed that, on my journey in life, I was able to connect that deeply, to being Jewish, and to Israel, and realizing how those things are connected. And I went on a journey, like I didn't come necessarily from a place where that was instilled into me, you know, to some extent, it was, you know, but I went on my own journey, and I spent a lot of time you know, sifting through all of that and figuring those things out for myself. And so I feel blessed to be in the position that I'm in where I know kind of who I am and what I believe, and people can take strength from that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I lived in Chicago for 15 years so I'm very familiar with the House of Blues as a venue. I loved going to see shows there and was heartbroken to hear that The House of Blues canceled your recently scheduled show. I understand that they paid the contractual penalty, you're going to donate that to an organization that advocates for the return of Israeli hostages held by Hamas. But can you tell us a little bit about the conversations you had with them, or with Chicago police or anyone else prior to the cancellation, and what explanations were given?

Matisyahu:  

Well, I'll go into it a little bit. I mean, there's still some confusion as to exactly what happened. But I essentially got a call from someone high up at Live Nation saying that the show needed to be canceled because of a lack of police force. And then with a friend of mine, David Draiman, who's the lead singer for a band Disturb also from Chicago with a lot of his close friends, we were able to explore that. And it seemed as though the police department was aware there was going to be a protest, but that they were not concerned. 

So then it became a mystery as to where's the concern coming from really, which then led us to this whole Alderman thing, and then we thought it might have been this one. But now then, you know, turns out maybe it was other Alderman that were putting pressure on the police force or on Live Nation. And so there's, there's some mystery and honestly, as much as it is important to find out where this is coming from. And so how we can try to stop it. It has not been my main focus in this past week.

This past week, I was out on tour, I played four shows, there were protesters at all of them, except one, Salisbury, Massachusetts. And all four shows went on, and they all sold out. And they were all really powerful. So what happened in Chicago was pretty devastating for us. Because, you know, it's scary to think that people are making choices and being able to shut down huge organizations, and creative expression and artistic freedom. So it was devastating. But, you know, we bounced right back and jumped right back into tour. I got another big week of shows this week. 

So that's basically all I know, to tell you the truth. And while I would love to point the finger and say it was this person or that person, what I'm learning is, as things start getting uncovered, you know, it's hard to know, I'm not an investigative reporter, but I'm sure that like, it's tricky finding out what the real story is a full time job probably.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Were there similarly mysterious circumstances surrounding Tucson and Santa Fe? 

Matisyahu:  

No, that was less mysterious. And in those cases, it was a little more clear as to what was going on. In Santa Fe, it was literally staff members that didn't want to come to the show. And for whatever reason, let the venue know at the last minute. There may have been someone at the venue behind that, we don't really know. And then in Arizona, it was, seemed like it was more from the promoter, or the buyer of the show where people were putting pressure on her to cancel the show. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I asked you a bit ago, if it was important for Jewish celebrities or influencers to speak out about October 7 violence? I'll ask you instead, is it important for them to speak out about this kind of cancellation or censorship or limitation on creative expression? 

Matisyahu:  

I think so. You know, because it's like that old story, they came for, they came from me and these people, and I didn't say anything, they came for these people. And then they came from me. I mean, that's what we see out here. You know, that's what that's what artistic expression, creativity is about, it's about being able to express your views and your ideas through music. It's peaceful, you know. So, it's unfortunate. It's what we have to deal with. 

There are people that realize how important it is. And those people like David are really  trying to help and trying to be outspoken and there are a lot of Jews out there that understand how important this is. I'm feeling support from most people, but not enough. For sure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Speaking of creative expression, I am curious whether October 7 has influenced any of your musical creation, songwriting, how has that influenced the creative process for you? 

Matisyahu:  

One way, I have a song that's coming out it’s called Ascent, and I wrote it before October 7, but after the Kanye antisemitic lash out and it's about antisemitism. So while I was in Israel, we shot the video at the site of the Nova festival and in some of the kibbutzim and with some of the survivors, so that is like one very obvious way in which I was influenced. And that video kind of takes footage from the Holocaust and World War Two and intermixes it with October 7 footage as well. 

And then in terms of my own music, last year, I recorded about 40 songs, and started releasing them with this EP. But I kind of like right when all this began, right as I was starting touring, so it's sort of, for me a different creative hat, like a bit of a different place than writing. So I'm not writing new material, but I'm performing the new songs along with old songs. 

And what I'm finding creatively is that a lot of the lyrics and a lot of the themes, even though over the years, some of them have been personal, they all kind of connect and tie into the greater story of the Jewish people, and the obstacles that we face. And our survival. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's one of the reasons why I brought up One Day, is I loved the song back when it came out. But it does take on a whole new meaning when you listen to it today. It's very powerful. 

This is not the first time that your shows had been canceled due to anti Israel sentiments, I believe it was in 2015, there was a music festival in Spain that canceled your appearance, when you wouldn't promise to bring up Israeli politics on stage. Instead, you toured a dozen American college campuses that year. And I'm curious what you learned from that experience that you're applying to now? And also what you've learned on some of these college tours?

Matisyahu:  

Well, that's a great question. Because for a lot of people all this is like the first time they're experiencing it. And I feel like part of the blessing of my journey that I've had is that I have gone through this to a lesser version. Like you said in 2015. What they wanted me to do was to sign some kind of document saying that I was against the atrocities of Israel.

So I wouldn't sign that and that was the same thing. It was like, No, I'm not going to do that. Like, that doesn't that doesn't line up with who I am. I mean, I don't care honestly, what this statement is, I'm not going to sign something, I'm not going to be singled out as the only artist out of hundreds. That's being forced to sign something, because I'm Jewish, or because of my belief system. So I just kind of played it cool. You know, I was just like, No, I won’t do it, and they threw me off the festival.

It was like this story of Purim, like, they were trying to hang Mordechai. But Haman got hung really. They were patting themselves on the back, like, we threw this guy off the festival. And then there was an uproar about it. There were backers that were pulling out of the festival. 

And so they ended up having to apologize. And asked me to come back and still play the festival, all this happened within three or four days. And so I did go back, and I did play the festival. And, and then I went to Israel, you know, and then I went on this college tour, with Palestinian artists. And we went and performed together because we felt that was an important thing to do. 

So I think from what I learned from that was sort of like this idea of sort of, like trying to just be like water. If I just sort of do what feels what the right thing is what I feel is the right thing, and just don't kind of lose my cool. And I'm able to just sort of move within it, then basically, it's going to come out in a way that hopefully, will be victorious. And that's been my strategy so far with this tour as well. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So my last, my last question to you is, we talked about your journey, your faith journey and your musical journey. What makes you Jewish and proud today?

Matisyahu:  

You know, you see, the Jewish people don't really give up. They’re fighters. And there's always, in my mind, I believe, a vision of peace, and a vision of hope, and of empathy. I really, truly believe that that is at the core of who we are. And that is what we are actually fighting for. 

Even when the rest of the world is trying to say that we're the monsters, we won't let that stop us. Nothing will stop us. It's just who we are. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Beautiful, thank you so much, Matis, for joining us. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Israeli filmmaker Shifra Soloveichik about her digital initiative Women of Valor: Women of War, portraits of individual Israeli women during this challenging moment in modern Jewish history.

 

In the days following October 7, Israeli filmmaker Shifra Soloveichik felt hopeless and hated, but not helpless. Inspired by women around her, she launched a digital initiative called Women of Valor: Women of War, to spotlight unheralded women with extraordinary stories during one of the most difficult moments in modern Jewish history. To mark Women’s History Month, hear from Shifra about how she is giving a voice to Israeli women whose stories have gone unheard.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Shifra Soloveichik

 

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• Women of Valor on Instagram

• Senai Geudalia’s Story on YouTube

• Sarah Lopez’s Story on Instagram

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Shifra Soloveichick:

Senai Geudalia:

So I'll start from the day before. It was Friday, October 6. That night was really fun. 

We were dancing in the street from place to place, like you know hakafot here, hakafot there. And he was like being so like himself, times 100. Hugging me and dancing with me and just, at the sea of Yosef, like that was Yosef in a bottle, like celebrating his people, celebrating the Torah and being with his family, like that was the peak of Yosef. 

You know, they say the neshamah [soul] knows 40 days before. So that to me, like he was like getting all of it in.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That’s Senai Geudalia, whose husband Yosef was killed on Oct 7.In the uncertain days following the outbreak of the war between Israel and Hamas, Israeli filmmaker Shifra Soloveichik felt hopeless and hated, but not helpless. She used her craft to launch a digital initiative called Women of Valor: Women of War, an opportunity to lift up the Jewish women of Israel and share their stories of courage and perseverance. 

To mark Women's History Month, Shifra is with us now to discuss Women of Valor: Women of War. Shifra, Welcome to People of the Pod.

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Hi, thanks for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have shared a little bit about the genesis of this project on your social media. You felt self conscious, scared, like a lot of us did after October 7. Can you share how you channeled that fear?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

So on October 7, myself, and like many Israelis, we woke up to sirens. My husband was immediately call for reserve duty that morning. And it was a very scary feeling. Because I had never experienced anything like that before. I grew up in the States. I moved to Israel when I was a young teenager, so my entire relationship, my husband, he was never in the army, so I never had that sort of experience within my relationship. 

The only word I can describe I could use to describe how I felt was scared. It was a very scary day. I remember being scared to walk to my in-laws house that they live very close by because there were sirens every other minute. And we lived in an area in Israel where there aren't usually a lot of sirens. So we knew things were going on. We also are observant Jews. So if we couldn't check our phones, we were keeping Sabbath. So we weren't able to understand what was going on. We were just hearing from people talking on the streets. 

We heard that maybe there was a terrorist infiltration, but we didn't quite understand the scope of what was going on. And my husband left. I didn't know what to do. I didn't realize that from that day, he would be in reserves for four months, and our entire lives completely changed. And just the first few days of the war was incredibly terrifying, because only after Shabbat did we realize what was going on. And over the next few days, did we realize what was going on. 

And there were two aspects that were very fearful. One was that physically what my entire life changed within a few minutes. And I was living, I wasn't living at home, I was scared to be myself. My husband wasn’t at home. There was a physical war going on. I didn't know where he was going. On October 7, we didn't know anything. So it was just a very logistic reason to be afraid.

And then on top of that, I would go on social media and I would scroll through Tiktok and Instagram and see, at the beginning level of support. But even then, there were a lot of people who were saying very hateful things calling what happened on October 7 a resistance. 

So there was just that aspect of fear. But there was also this very genuine fear of being scared of being a Jew and experiencing a level of hate that I didn't know was humanly possible. So I had all of these feelings of, of fear, and also hopelessness. And the only thing that got me through that time was being with other women whose husbands were also in reserve duty, being with family, being within a support network where we would sit around, and we would knit and we would talk, all of our schedules were all gone. We didn't have school, we didn't have work. We didn't have anything to do except wait around all day for our husbands to call us and just be scared. So that support system is what got me through. And it inspired me.

And throughout living in Israel and reading the news stories of the horrific tragic things that were happening, I was also finding so much strength and the connection between the Jewish women that I was experiencing in my community as well as stories of Jewish women who were so brave and powerful, and empowering in their own right, in different ways from the war and those women would inspire me as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I love how you describe the subjects of women of Valor, –ordinary women who do extraordinary things, because that's often how I define the religion stories that I pursue–ordinary people who do extraordinary things inspired by their faith. What are some of the other extraordinary stories you have collected so far?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Yes, absolutely. So, Iris Haim, the mother of Yotam Haim, who was abducted from his home in Kfar Aza, and was in Hamas captivity and ran away from his captors. He was killed by IDF friendly fire, a situation that is just so unbelievably awful and horrific. And we interviewed Iris Haim as part of the Women of Valor series, but I think she's an embodiment of looking at evil in the eyes and still saying that she doesn't blame the IDF. She doesn't blame her people. And that at this time, we need to come together and be one family, which I think is something so difficult to feel sometimes during such hard times of war. But even more so after such a horrific tragic loss, she was able to, and she continues to inspire people through her perspective and her power. 

And I think in general, the women that I've been bringing, that we've been wanting to show a light or showcase on the series are women who, who are not letting their pain define them. Rather, they are taking the next step to be empowered through their story. I think in general, with everything that's happened since October 7, there's been so many awful tragedies that have happened to our people, to the Jewish people. And it's very easy for us as a nation to connect through the pain and connect to each other and feel each other's pain and kind of sit in the pain. 

It's more so, these women are letting their power, they are choosing to let that define them. And I think that's a really beautiful part of this platform that we're creating, which is connecting other women to our strength and to the beauty that comes along with the pain but it's not letting the pain and the evil define who we are.

Sarah Lopez:

Two weeks after October 7, I found out I was pregnant. I was honestly shocked and the joy that I felt was such a juxtaposition to the pain that I was feeling that it almost felt kind of wrong. My husband was in miluim at the time and I surprised him when he got back. 

For us it was like this little flame of light and joy during such a dark time. Now I don't feel like this is just another baby or I'm just another mother. Now this feels like a mission, it feels like a shlichut, to continue our Jewish legacy and bring life after we lost so many. 

It’s kind of like a sign to our enemies, because us Jewish women, we're not gonna stop being strong and powerful. We're not going to stop living and giving life. Because we are women of valor.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How did you find the women for this project, like Sarah Lopez, who we just heard from?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

So we have two different parts of the project. We have documentaries, as well as a social media platform. They kind of  work together, but they are kind of different entities in the sense that and the documentaries, I have four interviews with women that I specifically wanted to show their narrative, and our social media is open to everyone, any Jewish woman can send in her submission of what her life has been like since October 7, or how she defines what a woman of valor is. So with the submissions, we have so many women just sending us stories and ideas and thoughts. And they send it through asocial media form, in a social media structure. So they'll send you their reels, or posts or written posts or captions, and so many different ways. And that was just very organic, we post on our stories that we would love for you to share your story. And it comes to us. And it's just a beautiful initiative and way for us all to connect and feel seen and heard. 

And for the documentaries that came more from a film background of just research and reaching out to specific women that I wanted to amplify their voices. And that was our production team working on that. And that was more from things I saw on the news as well as friends of friends that I was inspired by and I was like, you know what, I need to share her story. So it kind of happened in that organic route as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This project in many ways highlights how women are overcoming the unique challenges that face them in the aftermath of October 7. Could we talk a little bit about those unique challenges but also the added affront of doubt that Israeli women faced unspeakable crimes. The UN recently validated the claims of sexual violence against women by Hamas, for example. That seemed like an additional layer of trauma that Israeli women had to endure even if they weren't directly affected by it. How do you see Israeli women responding to those kinds of challenges as well?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

The lack of condemning the sexual violence on October 7 was very hurtful, but I wasn't. I would have seen it coming. I wasn't surprised. Because just from the general feeling that and especially that's something I experienced a lot on October 7 was that everyone is kind of out to get me, like why would anyone believe me? No one understands me. I think there's a general feeling of misunderstanding amongst Israelis in general amongst all Israelis, not women and men alike. I think it's just or it's not something I was surprised by, which is very painful to say. 

I think what Israeli women are experiencing, specifically is kind of an understanding of where our priorities are and what we need to focus on in order to be strong and be strong for our husbands, for our children, our parents. There are a lot of Israeli women who are, who are soldiers and are in reserve duty, but also a lot are kind of also undeserved duty from the other end of supporting the war from a more spiritual and emotional perspective. 

I think that is the biggest challenge of kind of just not letting anything faze you and being focused on how can we continue the conversation? How can we continue our lives in a healthy way? I think if I were to sit and think about all of the injustice since October 7, I don't think I would be able to have it within myself to create a platform like this necessarily, because it's just so disappointing.

But unfortunately, not something that I would have expected otherwise. I yeah, I think that there's a lot of immense trauma going on right now. Amongst all Israelis, I think I don't know the exact statistic. But most Israelis suffer from some form of PTSD. And I think when we let the outside voices kind of define our narrative,it just makes it harder. Like it's harder for us to kind of focus on how we continue, how we grow.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have described this war as not only one of physical violence, but as a spiritual battle against the essence of our existence, those are the words that you used. The existence of the Jewish people, is that what you mean by that? Can you explain it a bit?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

It can be defined as against the existence of the Jewish people, but I don't think you necessarily you don't have to be Jewish to be an Israeli and to be part of this narrative. I think there are so many Women of Valor, who are not necessarily Jewish, they can be Muslim, Christian, and they live in Israel, and they are also experiencing tragedy from this war. I don't think it is particularly only a Jewish concept. 

But I do think that the general narrative against the essence of existence as Israelis and Israeli Jews is kind of what's going on. The spiritual war is that, it’s part of the narrative that Israel should not exist.

And the battle that we're fighting is, why shouldn't I? I deserve to live too, I deserve to be part of this, I deserve to live freely, why is this part of the conversation? And I think that's more of the spiritual aspect of kind of standing up for our rights to exist as a Jew, wherever I want to live. If it's in America, if it's in Israel, if it's in Canada, I have a right to exist. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you see women in particular as fighting this spiritual war?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

I believe that women are the spiritual leaders. I think from history and from the Bible that's how I've always connected to the role of women in Judaism, is that we are spiritual warriors throughout all the generations.I see it on a on a general scale, but on a very, very personal level, just me being at home while my husband was at war. It did feel like something out of the Bible, like what people talk about. I was just at home and you think, what do you do at home, when your husband's at war, it's just such a odd concept. And it just feels so traditional in a sense. 

And that reality was just very eye opening, of what is my role in my home. And I think highlighting that aspect, that more traditional role as an empowering thing, because that in my personal journey, that's kind of where it brought me, has just been, I think, giving a voice to a lot of women and saying, you know, stuff like your role in whatever you choose to do, whether that's be a warrior, or be a wife, or be a mother, be a commander in the army, like these are not contradictory things. 

I interviewed someone named Shifra Buchris, who is a mother of 10, who's also commander in Magav, in the border police, and she's also religious, and she also,  saved tons of lives on October 7, she was driving back and forth from the Nova festival, just saving lives. 

I think people kind of can see it as a complex idea of like, what is a woman of valor? What is what makes someone a spiritual warrior? And I think it's just, it's, it's anything, it's anything if you're a woman, and you're, and you're fighting, in whatever way you're, you're a woman of valor. And she's a great embodiment of that, that kind of like, oh, is this? Are these identities complex? Are they contradictory? And it's, it's honestly, it's not. We are all living here trying to be there for our families, be there for our our friends and our nation.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Why focus on women?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

As an Israeli Jewish woman, I see a lot of emphasis on the men in our society. And I think also as a whole. Just growing up, I haven't seen so much representation of women voices that I connected with. I think it's specifically in Israeli society, there's a big emphasis on the military, it's more of a patriarchal society, I would say not necessarily in a bad way. I think it makes sense in the context of us having a lot of wars, and there's just a lot of emphasis and an honor placed on our male soldiers, because of what they do. And it's incredible, and they are protecting Israel. And it makes sense. 

That idea that I had with this project was to give voices to those who are not necessarily being honored or applauded, whether that's in the general society or even within our consciousness, I think, just giving a voice to people who have inspired me and inspire countless others, but you wouldn't look at them walking down the street and think, oh, yeah, they're super inspiring, and they're so strong, because I think it's more of a internal strength as opposed to like an external battle. And I think giving a voice to those women and those and that narrative has just been very empowering for me personally, and that's really what I hope to share through this platform.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Shifra, thank you so much for joining us. To learn more about Women of Valor, check out @ValorStories on Instagram and Youtube - links are in our Show Notes. 

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

“Listen to me, Edan. I'm here. I'm with you. I love you. Just protect yourself. Just be safe.” These were the last words Yael Alexander spoke to her then-19 year old son, Edan, on the morning of October 7, 2023. Edan, an IDF soldier stationed on the Gaza border, was later taken hostage by Hamas terrorists.

Yael joins us from her New Jersey home to tell her story of pain, uncertainty, and anguish over the past 152 days. This week, as President Joe Biden delivers his State of the Union address, she will be among the 17 American families of hostages taken by Hamas into Gaza on October 7 that will be in attendance at the U.S. Capitol. 

Visit AJC.org/BringThemHome to urge Congress to keep pressing for the release of the hostages.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Yael Alexander

Show Notes:

Music Credits: Dramatic Piano and Strings by UNIVERSFIELD is licensed under a Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.

More Analysis and Resources: Hostage Families Will Attend the State of the Union. Here’s What to Know.

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War: 

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Yael Alexander:

Yael Alexander: I told him at the end of the call: ‘Listen to me, Edan. I'm here. I'm with you. I love you. Just protect yourself. Just be safe.’ And that's it, we hang up. I didn't know I'm not gonna hear from him again.

Manya Brachear Pashman: That’s Yael Alexander, the mother of Edan Alexander, one of eight Americans still held hostage by Hamas inside Gaza. I recently visited the family’s home in Tenafly, New Jersey, a small suburban town often dubbed Little Tel Aviv for its relatively large Israeli population. 

Throughout the town, there are reminders of the deep connection between its residents, the Jewish state, and its ongoing war with Hamas. A billboard downtown featuring Edan’s picture. A weekly walk for the hostages not yet home. A moment of silence at the start of every school day. Signs of support staked in front lawns.

As of this recording on March 7, 2024, it has been 152 days since Yael spoke with her son Edan. Those days have been a constant whirlwind of meetings, trips, tours—all in an effort to bring him home. 

Most recently, the family went to Israel for a painful look at where Edan was at the time of that last call. At the State of the Union address in Washington D.C., Yael and her husband Adi will join 15 other relatives of Americans murdered or kidnapped by Hamas, as guests of a bipartisan group of members of Congress.

Yael Alexander: They told us it's gonna’ be a long process, but I didn't imagine you know, I thought after four weeks max, they're gonna bring everyone out. And now we’re four months, it’s, I don't have words.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Edan Alexander, a 2022 graduate of Tenafly High School, was one of two graduates that year who instead of going straight to college moved to a kibbutz in Israel and volunteered to serve two years defending the nation where his mother and father had been raised and his grandparents still live.

Yael Alexander: August 2023, Edan came to the U.S. for four weeks. He came to visit us, to spend time with his friends from college. Everyone was here in Tenafly. So, it was like the best opportunity for him and for them, like after their graduation to be again. And it was the best vacation ever. And when I drove him to JFK.

I told him: Listen, Edan, I really want to come and visit you during the holidays. And I told him: I'm gonna’ come by myself, Sukkot. So please ask your commander and tell him that mommy's coming and give you some free time to spend time with me. So, October 1, I came to Israel. He came to pick me up from the airport. And we spent the two days together.

Manya Brachear Pashman: After two days with his mom, 19-year-old Edan asked if he could return to the kibbutz a little early to squeeze in time with his girlfriend before returning to base. He texted with his mother throughout the rest of the week and Facetimed with her and his grandparents on Friday night, October 6th. He was stationed on the Gaza border.

Yael Alexander: Friday night after the kiddush, in our house. He called me and I told him: ‘Listen Edan, let's do a FaceTime. And he's like, OK, so I'm like, looking at him and he just looking so happy and great, telling me that he ate some chicken and rice and it was OK. It was fine. And now he's going to sleep because first thing in the morning on Saturday, he needs to get up to his watch.’ 

And I'm like, ‘OK, great. So say bye to Grandma and Grandpa and everyone’ because we were sitting around the table. And it was very cute of him to change to the FaceTime because sometimes he doesn't want to do it. But this time he was like ‘Yeah, cool. Of course. Let's do FaceTime.’ And, that's it.  

Saturday morning, October 7, I'm waking up because my dad is opening the bedroom door and he's telling me ‘Yael, you need to wake up. It's an alarm outside. It was 6:30-ish in the morning AM and we need to go to a safe place.’ And the first thing that I'm thinking about, ‘Oh my God, I need to check what's going on with Edan. So, I'm texting him, What's going on there? Are you OK? Are you safe? 

And then he’s calling me. It was a few minutes before 7 AM. And he's telling me: ‘Hey, Mom, we are getting a lot of bombs here. It's like a war. I'm seeing stuff. Terrible stuff. But don't worry, I'm safe. But it felt like all the conversation is start, also he spoke a little bit English. He was sound like he was screaming and full of adrenaline. And I didn't know what he's seeing or what is happening because no one knew. 

I told him at the end of the call, ‘Listen to me, Edan. I'm here. I'm with you. I love you. Just protect yourself. Just be safe.’ And that's it, we hang up. I didn't know I'm not gonna hear from him again.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Yael called her husband Adi back in the States. He and Edan’s younger brother Roy and sister Mika flew to Israel the next day. Still, for days, they remained in the dark, unable to get through to their son’s cell phone. Unable to get any information.

Yael Alexander: A lot of bad news, like you hearing, you know, all around. A lot of people murdered, horrible stories, like after a day or two you start hearing about these horrible stories from this morning of October 7, and still nothing from Edan. 

So we went to every forum that it was like, I don't know, it was like … one night, you don't know what's going on, the day after you’re working with people on the phone that you never met, and you just trust them they're gonna find your kid. They had some you know, I don't know. Everyone was trying to help you and telling you, go to hospitals. Go and look, because there is a lot of anonymous soldiers or people. Go and look for him. So we've been everywhere like every hospital in Israel, like we went there and tried to understand where is Edan. 

On Thursday someone is calling me from the army and he’s telling me that he's got a message for us. I didn't understand at first. What is this? What kind of message? I'm on the phone 24/7. We couldn't eat. We couldn't sleep, nothing, like in the loop. Like, try to find my son. 

And then I'm just catching myself like, Oh, my God, you have a message for us? Yes, yes. Where are you? So we are waiting for them. We wait for 40 minutes I think. I couldn't breathe. 

I remember my head like down, you know, between my knees and I'm just trying to breathe and breathe and breathe because I felt I'm going to faint. I didn't know what they want from me. We met them in this discreet room and then they told us that after they reviewed everything they know that Edan is took hostage by Hamas terrorists and they took him to Gaza.

He was guarding a kibbutz that a lot of people got murdered. Thank God, they didn't touch him. They just took him from there. He was by himself. So, it wasn't like a conflict or nothing. Thank God. He was surrendering and they took him. There's something that we know.

Manya Brachear Pashman: It was devastating news, but at that point in time, the best news that Yael and Adi could’ve received because it meant there was hope of seeing their son again.

Yael Alexander: So, it's good. And they're looking at me like I'm a crazy person. Because this is the worst message you can ever get as a parent. My son is my life. He is my air, he is everything for me. But to understand that they took him and he's OK. It was like the world. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Now we can work to speak with everyone because he’s OK. OK, he's a hostage. But still we have the hope that he will come back home.

A day after we had a Zoom with Biden and all the American families. He was really with us, you know, he understand our pain, he could connect to this. He told us, as Americans, we are going to do whatever we can to help you to get through it. Like whatever we can, we are here and we are going to do it. And it was really comforting. It was like we felt the hug. 

We stayed a total of an hour and a half with the President. It was unbelievable because we were so confused. We just got a day before the message. So, we knew what is the situation with Edan, but a lot of families didn't know what happened to their loved ones. Not everyone knew if they were murdered, if they took hostage. Still it was chaos.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  152 days later, eight American hostages remain missing: Edan, Itay Chen, Omer Neutra, Sagui Dekel-Chen, Keith Siegel, Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Gad Haggai, and Judith Weinstein. Both Judith and Gad are confirmed dead. Americans Liat Beinin Atzili and Avigail Idan have been released. 32 Americans lost their lives on October 7. Nearly two dozen more have lost their lives since.

Yael Alexander: A few days after, I left Israel with the kids, with Mika and Roy. I felt it was very tough to stay in Israel. I wanted to stay. I didn't want to leave because I felt that I'm leaving my son behind. You know, it's the worst, really, it's the worst feeling ever. But I said to my husband: Listen, it's not healthy here. The alarms, the panic, the worry, it's too much. And they're like in jail, in their house, in my parents’ house. So, it's not healthy. 

I'm gonna go back home to Jersey, and I'm gonna try to have a routine, you know, again, with the schools, with the friends, with the community, like I'm trying to, you know, for them, because it's not healthy. 

So, my husband spent I think two weeks over there without us. I came back. My sister came with me with her kids and all our friends just was here, like, you know, I'm still getting food, everyone is taking care of us and so caring and loving and you feel the hug.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Though Edan’s absence is palpable every day, the rhythms of life have not stopped in the Alexander home, though they are frequently interrupted. Mika is waiting to hear from colleges and shopping for shoes to wear to prom. But she’s also writing columns about her brother, speaking at rallies, and holding down the fort when her parents are away advocating.

Yael Alexander: It’s hard. To be 17 and to handle this, and she's doing a lot. After we came back from Israel, there was a big rally in Times Square, New York. And they asked me to speak, and I couldn't. I was like, numb. I couldn't say anything. So, I asked Mika at the same day. And she did it. And it was a great speech, from the heart. And it was in front of thousands of people. And since then, I am amazed by her. 

It seems like this situation because I'm keeping her also busy. I know that she can handle it, she's feeling like she's helping with the fight to bring Edan home. And this is super important to her.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Meanwhile, in addition to traveling with his mother and marching for his brother, Roy is attending middle school, playing basketball, and preparing for his upcoming bar mitzvah, right before Passover. Edan was supposed to come in to New Jersey for that milestone.

Yael Alexander: The first time that I saw Roy put the tefillin on and I just start crying because he's not a boy. He's looking more and more like Edan. And he's like, grown up now. I’m very emotional now when I’m seeing Roy. When I'm seeing Roy, he's not my little baby anymore … and I'm remembering everything that we've been through with Edan with his bar mitzvah and how little he was and it's very emotional for me now this time because we are such in pain, but still we are preparing for this, Roy’s celebration. You know, bar mitzvah boy. So, it's a lot. It's sad and happy and you still trying to be OK for the kids to see you OK every day. But it's very hard.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Yael, who baked cakes out of the family’s home, and Adi, a diamond wholesaler, are juggling work obligations, meetings with senators and congressmen, travels to Washington and Israel, and media interviews, all focused on bringing their son home.

Yael Alexander: I don't know what's next. Every day everything is so dynamic. I don't know what's going on. Like a day we here, a day we need to go to DC, like this is the thing now. My husband is going to work maybe two days a week now because he can't. We have the zoom. We have the meetings. Suddenly this come and this came. I'm not working obviously. I'm around it all day. All day and all night. You don't want to miss anything.

I feel that everyone is really working. Also with the Qataris, also America, also Egyptians like everyone is doing whatever they can to make it happen. I'm really hoping, I’m going to be in Israel next week, I’m really hoping that some kind of miracle. 

Now I'm praying a lot. A lot. I'm talking to Edan nonstop the whole day but I'm also praying like actual praying and I'm just asking for a miracle. And just to see him, to hug him, to just to feel his perfect face. Just to be with him because, yeah.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The Alexander family no longer lives in the house where Edan spent his childhood. They moved a mile away during his sophomore year in high school. Edan never spent much time in his bedroom. He preferred to be in the center of the action, camped out on the sofa downstairs so he could greet anyone who walked through the room. 

But Yael took me to the room where he slept as a teen. Beside the bed there now is a giant Torah scroll delivered by the local Chabad rabbi, dressed in silver plating and finials that jingle when the scroll is lifted. A prayer shawl is draped over the top.

Yael Alexander: So you can see we have a Torah here. It's a beautiful Torah and this is something guarding Edan and is giving him bless to his return. Every morning, I'm coming in here and I'm doing my prayer. And I'm just talking to Edan every morning and I'm sending him a lot of strength in his heart and his soul. And I'm just here with him. And every night I'm saying ‘Good night, Edan. I love you. You know, can't wait to hold you.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Edan spent most of his young life in Tenafly. A happy-go-lucky guy, champion swimmer for the high school team, and a big fan of the New York Knicks. But he was born in Israel, spoke Hebrew at home, and visited Israel often to see both sets of grandparents. He even celebrated his bar mitzvah there. Yael showed me the photographs in an album she keeps in his room.

Yael Alexander: Oy yoy yoy. Yes, Edan. You see? What a celebration. Yeah it’s everyone.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Still, Yael was surprised when Edan announced his senior year in high school that he wanted to postpone college and try Garin Tzabar, a program founded in 1991 for young Jewish adults who want to explore serving as lone soldiers in Israel’s Defense Forces. 

Edan and 16 other high school graduates, including a classmate in Tenafly, moved to a kibbutz and did four months of training before committing to serve in the IDF.

Yael Alexander: He told us that he wants to do the Garin Tzabar. I don't know, I felt proud. You know, because I've done my army. And Adi was in the Army, everyone doing the army in Israel. So, this is something that you do for your country, you know. For me, it was a great experience. It was great for me. And I thought also for Edan because he's doing this for two years and eight months. He's coming back, doing his college. So, Edan chose to do this. I was proud. I was proud. Yeah. I am proud. Not was.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Edan’s 20th birthday was on December 29, 2023. To call attention to his continued captivity, Yael and his brother Roy traveled to Israel and hosted a blowout celebration with live bands and balloons and media coverage. 

Yael Alexander: It was really important for me to do a celebration for him, to mark this day, I wanted to everyone in the news in the radio, everyone will speak just about one thing about Edan’s celebration, because if he's going to hear something or someone is going to hear it inside, it's going to be the world for me. Because for him to understand that his mom is in Israel and also his brother and we are celebrating his birthday and everyone loves him and miss him so much. It's going to be major.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Yael knows she’s not getting all the answers about her son’s whereabouts and well-being. Still, she continues to meet with whomever will see her and listen to her pleas to bring Edan home.

Yael Alexander: I don't think they can give me the answers. But it's important, because every meeting that you are opening your family, your trauma, your kid, like it's connecting them to you, and they understand it and you're still relevant. And this is something that they're gonna think about it and maybe you're hoping that they will work on it, you know, to make the stand, to connect to us. And to do this.

Manya Brachear Pashman: During the pandemic, Yael started baking cakes. She loved being in the kitchen and Edan loved it too. But since he disappeared, she has not baked a single pastry. She has replaced dough with clay, sculpting in a quiet corner of the basement where she can disconnect for just a little while and think about Edan. She showed me one sculpture that started as a balloon, but collapsed in the middle.

Yael Alexander: Now it looks like a heart and there is like a crack in the middle. And I think this is my perfect piece. It's so imperfect and look like it's not done but I think it's done and I can't wait to take it to do bisque and to paint it because this is how I feel right now. Like with the crack in my heart.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Yael has adopted other coping mechanisms too. A chair and a coffee mug full of cigarette ash now occupy a corner of the front porch as she has resumed smoking, which she hasn’t done since she herself served in the IDF. She also has tried to create the reality she wants to see.

Yael Alexander: We bought a new dining table last week. It's a huge one also because I'm waiting to the celebration for Edan return home. So, I'm telling my husband: ‘Listen, don't say a word. I'm doing that because I'm creating something, and this is something good. So, we need to continue and praying that this is something that's gonna happen.

We just holding and hoping and praying that he's OK. That he's still strong there, in heart and in mind, in everything. I'm all the time I’m praying ‘Please, Edan. Please stay strong. Don't let it break you. Even if you hear the bombing you know people are coming to save you. You're not alone. We are coming.

 

 

 

 

What’s it like being a Jewish student at Harvard today? With us to tell their firsthand accounts are Nitsan Machlis, Co-Chair of the Harvard Kennedy School Jewish Caucus, and Shabbos Kestenbaum, a Harvard Divinity school student who is part of a group that sued the university–alleging that they failed to address “severe and pervasive” campus antisemitism. 

AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that 24% of current or recent college students say they felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they're Jewish. Listen in to hear from Machlis and Kestenbaum on how Harvard’s administration has made Jewish students feel unwelcome and unsupported – and what they’re doing to fix it.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Nitsan Machlis, Shabbos Kestenbaum

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• The Fallout from the University Presidents Congressional Hearing: What Does it Mean for Jewish Students?

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

More Analysis and Resources:  

• What is Students for Justice in Palestine, the Hamas-supporting Anti-Israel Group Being Banned on College Campuses?

• Confronting Campus Antisemitism: An Action Plan for University Students

• AJC Campus Library

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Nitsan Machlis and Shabbos Kestenbaum:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Since the October 7 terror attack on Israel by Hamas, it has become increasingly difficult for Jewish students to feel safe on American college campuses. AJC's state of antisemitism and America 2023 report found that 24% of current or recent college students say they felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they're Jewish. This is even true at one of the world's top Ivy League schools. Some might even say, especially true at Harvard University. 

This week, the co-chair of a task force set up by Harvard to combat anti semitism resigned. The second such departure after Rabbi David Wolpe resigned from an anti semitism Advisory Committee. He cited former Harvard President Claudine Gay’s congressional testimony and events on campus, which reinforced the idea that he could not make the sort of difference he had hoped. The latest event on campus: a blatantly antisemitic cartoon circulated on Instagram by pro Palestinian student groups. 

Here to give us some perspective on the ground are Harvard Divinity student Shabbos Kestenbaum  and head of the Harvard Kennedy School Jewish Caucus, Nitsan Machlis. 

Shabbos, Nitsan, welcome to People of the Pod.

Nitsan Machlis:  

Thank you.

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Thank you. Good to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So as I mentioned on Sunday, Professor Raphaela Sadoon resigned from her role on the University Task Force to Combat Antisemitism. Any idea why? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Sure. So when President Garber put out that announcement, it was definitely a surprise to many of us. The official reason was she wanted to focus on her administrative and academic responsibilities as a professor at the business school. But we know that that's not true. The very next day, The Harvard Crimson wrote an article detailing from members on the antisemitism Task Force, that she was incredibly frustrated with the slow pace, with the bureaucracy. And more fundamentally, she had asked Harvard to commit themselves to actually applying the recommendations that the taskforce would issue. And Harvard was not willing to do that. And I think that speaks volumes, again, about their priorities and how serious they are about combating antisemitism, that they wouldn't even commit themselves to listening to the advice of people that they themselves appointed. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what are some of those basic obvious objectives that you think the task force–what are your expectations for this task force?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Well, my expectations for the task force is nothing. I mean, the first one was so remarkably useless. It was disbanded after, what 40 days. And this one, I'll give it, let's say 100 days tops. But in terms of what I would want to see, and what Jewish students have been asking for for years, is I'll give you an example. When all incoming students come into Harvard, they take mandatory Title Nine training, and it tells them that things like fat phobia, like sizeism, like the wrong gender pronouns are forms of abuse, and they can be disciplinary, if someone were to engage in them. 

Why is antisemitism not included in that type of mandatory training? And why is it that we need the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust for Harvard to wake up to that reality? So that's number one. 

Number two, we need to see the fair enforcement of the school code of conduct and the fair enforcement of school policies. If you're a student engaged in antisemitism, the way that many of them are at the moment, you will be disciplined in the same way you would be and you have been, because Harvard has a track record of doing this, if you were engaged in racism, or sexism, or homophobia. But why the double standard when it comes to Jews?

And then more fundamentally, we need to really restructure and reconsider DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives on campus that have never included Jewish people. Not once. These are just three basic recommendations off the top of my head that we've been saying for so, so long. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It seems like students and faculty are simply oblivious to just how vulnerable Jewish students are feeling. Case in point the cartoon last week showing a hand marked with a star of David and $1 sign holding nooses around the necks of a black man and an Arab. Can you share with our listeners, what kinds of explanations, apologies or consequences that you've heard about associated with that cartoon? 

Nitsan Machlis:  

That cartoon was really upsetting on a personal level. I'll share maybe attuned with the general theme here that I personally have never felt threatened on campus. I have friends who have had very bad experiences. I think antisemitism at an institutional level definitely exists. 

But I think that cartoon for me was the first time that I really felt like, wow, this is very upsetting. And this is something that could hurt me. I haven't had conversations with students about the cartoon. And I was actually surprised how many students were unaware that that cartoon had, in fact, been circulating. 

And many times I found that in conversations I'll have with friends, they will be very upset, but they didn't even know it was happening. So I will hear about this first from my Israeli circles or from my Jewish circles. But many students are really unaware the extent these images are circulating on campus. So I don't know if that directly answers the question of reactions. 

But for me, there's been this big question of how do people not know this is happening? And how can I be so upset for several days over this and my classmates are not even aware.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Shabbos you, as you were saying, you're one of six students who has sued the university for not adequately protecting Jewish students. In fact, you personally encountered antisemitism. Can you share that experience with our listeners?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Sure. So unfortunately, I haven't just encountered it on a one off, but it's been pervasive and it's been consistent. But one particular example that stands out was the very first day of the spring semester here at Harvard. I was walking through Harvard Yard and I noticed that every single poster that called attention to kidnapped Jewish babies was vandalized and not just vandalized, but with horrific horrific antisemitism, saying that Jews are best friends with Jeffrey Epstein, that they're responsible for 9/11. 

And in fact, on Kfir Bibas, who's the one year old Jewish child, someone had written his head is still on, where's the evidence? So I, of course, reported that immediately, no action was taken. It was only after CNN and Fox News had covered the story that Harvard retroactively issue a statement. 

But anyways, the next morning, I get a unprompted unsolicited email from a current Harvard employee who asked me to meet him in a secluded underpass to debate whether Jews were involved in 9/11. I, of course, reported that. 

And then later that night, he posted a video on his social media waving a machete with a picture of my face, saying that he wants to fight and he has some master plan. And as I said, I recorded all of this, I went through all the proper channels, whether it was DEI, whether it was the police, whether it was the Office of Student Life.

To this day, February 27, he is still employed at Harvard. In fact, a friend of mine told me he saw him walking through Harvard Yard just a couple of days ago.

It is inconceivable that any other minority group would be treated the way that Harvard treats its Jewish student body. And that's what makes this lawsuit, unfortunately, so necessary.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That sounds absolutely horrifying and terrifying for you. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with that. And that's on social media. Have you also encountered people on campus? Have you had personal encounters as well?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I'll just tell you the most recent incident that happened. There is a forum for Harvard students, specifically Harvard Divinity School students, and it's really just become a forum in the last couple of months to bash the Jewish state—It's genocidal, it’s apartheid. And someone had posted a couple of days ago that they were going to organize an event demanding lawmakers pass a ceasefire resolution. 

So I responded and this is the first time I was really involved in this forum for months, I responded saying wouldn't it make more sense to ask Hamas to release all the Jewish babies that they kidnapped and to surrender and end the war and I was kicked out of the forum. 

So there was not space for mainstream Jewish viewpoints unless that Jewish viewpoint is anti-Zionist. Harvard does not value freedom of speech, the free exchange of ideas or intellectual discourse. what it values is a one narrative, one ideology, and the moment you are counter to that you are ostracized, you are bullied and you're isolated.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Nitsan, have you encountered the same resistance to your point of view? Have you been reluctant to share that you’re Jewish or Israeli?

Nitsan Machlis:

I have felt for the first time, uncomfortable with how I share my identity. And whenever I speak in class, either on Israel or my Jewish identity, I think twice about it. And I have friends who have had very difficult experiences in classrooms and have really been caught off guard, that constant feeling that you have to be on guard because you don't know what will be said and how he will reply to it. It's very exhausting. 

But again, what I want to emphasize here is that this isn't the case for everyone. On a personal level, I haven't felt unsafe on a day to day basis, and I have had overwhelmingly positive experiences with my peers in the classroom. At the same time, there's a lot of very upsetting behavior that's happening, like the cartoon we just discussed. But the reason I think it's important to also discuss these stories is because I think that that feeling of isolation can be very dangerous. 

So we need to separate fighting against all the awful things that are happening, but also listening to students who have had positive experiences with their peers who have stepped forward and supported them in this time. I think both from an Israeli and a Jewish perspective, the worst thing that can happen is for us to feel completely isolated from our surroundings.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Nitsan, you are not part of this lawsuit. You have not been targeted in the same way. How are you trying to make a difference and change the climate there?  

Nitsan Machlis:

I will say that my approach has been to first of all work with the administration. And I very much believe in this. I think there is value to challenging the institution from the outside, especially when they have disappointed us on so many levels. But as the chair of the Jewish caucus in the Harvard Kennedy School, we have tried with the other co chairs, to work together with administration and specifically with DEI offices. For me this is one of the most important asks to have DEI offices in Harvard and another campuses understand that religious identities and national identities are part of any policy of inclusivity. 

And personally, I've seen results here, I think there is a greater understanding that these offices should cater to the needs of Jewish students. And I think this is institutionally one of the most important places that we can make things better for students in the long term, and shift the mindset of how administration deals with different identities within the school. 

But this really requires an approach of being willing to work together with administration, even when they have disappointed us. To make the meetings, to speak to the deans, and to come with lists of of demands from our students.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned working with University officials and leaders who run the DEI programs, there on campus. And I know that there has also been a task force formed to address anti Muslim and anti Arab bias. And both that group and the antisemitism Task Force are being advised by the university's chief diversity and inclusion officer. Until now, have the DEI efforts adequately included Jewish students, or let me just say, have they addressed Jewish students' needs at all?

Nitsan Machlis:  

So pre October 7, not at all, at all. And I found that really shocking, even from having orientation presentations, where we speak about all the different identities in school, and no religious identities would be there. And I think that we had a similar issue with Muslim students in the school who also felt like their religious identity is not something they felt comfortable talking about, or expressing or asking for accommodations. 

And in that sense, I think we should be building bridges with these kinds of student groups and working together because this is a dual issue. So we definitely did not see any of that pre-October 7. And a lot of our work with the DEI Deans has been making them aware that this is part of their toolkit and part of what they should be working on on campus. 

And some of it is really basic stuff like celebrating Jewish holidays when we're celebrating different holidays. So giving that a space on campus, having people know that a lot of the student population are celebrating a holiday right now, building courses around antisemitism, talking about antisemitism in racism classes, clarifying who we can report antisemitism to on campus. 

So these are small milestones. But I think what's important here is the mindset change. And understanding that if we want to talk about being inclusive, then we should be talking about religious identities, too.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Shabbos, there's the strategy of working from within, and there's this strategy of putting pressure from the outside. Do you feel like you kind of maximized used up any energy you had to try to work from within? Or is that in your experience, just not a successful strategy? And how did you decide to put the pressure on from the outside in the form of this lawsuit? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

My mindset from day one was let's work with the administration, let's work from the inside. And in fact, when I was working with my legal team to draft this lawsuit, which took about three months, I was quite emphatic, and quite clear that should things change, I would be willing to drop the lawsuit in a heartbeat. 

You know, I don't want to do this. And I don't want to go to DC. And I don't want to appear on different conferences, telling strangers how bad antisemitism is at Harvard. I want to learn. that's why I came to Harvard. But much like they say about Palestinian leadership, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. 

The Harvard faculty, the Harvard administration are the exact same way. They failed time and time again, not only did they fail, but they made the situation untenable, they made the situation so much worse. 

So my attitude in the past month or so has been these things are not amenable, we cannot change it. We have to dismantle it, we have to put pressure, outside pressure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What are some of the mistakes that you're seeing in this battle to confront antisemitism?

Nitsan Machlis: 

The whole conversation on anti-Zionism being critical of Israel and antisemitism is a very, very, very complicated conversation. There are no easy answers. I wish I had easy answers. And we shouldn't be having a complicated conversation about it, we should not be having an easy answer to every single case of criticizing Israel is necessarily antisemitic. And when we do that, unfortunately, people take us less seriously. 

Again, it's very complicated conversation. And I think very much of anti semitism is tied to anti-Zionism. And these things are not separate at all. I think we need to be very careful with how we fight antisemitism on campuses. And I think the listeners of this podcast will hopefully be willing to understand that climate is very, very, very complicated. 

I'm very critical of Israel's policies, I was involved in a lot of political activism work, I'm also a Zionist, and I'm a proud Israeli and I will return to Israel to work within the Israeli political system. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you taken precautions to stay safe? Have you changed any of your behavior? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Yeah. So you know, going back to this example of the current Harvard employee who taunted me with a machete, I had private armed security outside my house for three days, I had armed security follow me to synagogue on Friday night, you know, my parents are always calling and checking in on me, they very much want me to leave Cambridge and to come back home. 

And in the lawsuit, we also talked about how there was one instance at Widener library, which is really the heart and soul of Harvard University, where during finals week of the fall semester, there were hundreds of students chanting, globalize the Intifada, Palestine will be Arab, from the river to the sea. And Widener library’s where I like to go. It's where I'm entitled to go as a Harvard student. 

And I, of course, made sure not to, not even go into Widener library, but to change my regular route. So I wouldn't even have to walk across these people. 

Because we already know as we saw in the week after October 7, these protests can get violent, they do get violent, you know, there was an incident of a physical altercation at the business school. So what has Harvard done about it? The answer is nothing. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm just curious if your sense is that this climate already existed on campus, and October 7, that just intensified it, or are we just now paying attention to something that has long been there? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

That’s a great question. Well, before October 7, just as one anecdote, my first semester as a Harvard student, actually my first month, with the Palestine Solidarity committee invited Mohamed El Kurd to speak, this was his second time coming to campus. This is someone who said that Jews eat the organs of Palestinians. This is someone who says that the Israeli occupying forces have adopted the ways of Nazi Germany. 

And this is also someone that literally last night lamented on Twitter, that it's such a shame that we can't hijack planes to pursue our cause. I mean, calling him a terrorist sympathizer puts it mildly. 

Harvard has a strong track record, rightly or wrongly, but a strong track record of regulating speech that they find to be harmful to students. And they have a track record of rescinding invitations and even acceptances to students and to speakers in the name of promoting peace and safety for its students. The obvious and only exception is when it comes to Jews. 

We went to the administration, we said this is someone who supports violence against Jewish people in the name of Palestinian resistance. And the answers we got were shrugs on the shoulder, and well, there's nothing we can do about it. The hypocrisy and the double standard is so breathtaking, is so hurtful, is so demeaning. This was my first month at Harvard. 

So to say that this suddenly appeared out of nowhere, really does not encapsulate the pervasive problem of antisemitism at Harvard. And it also encapsulates how Harvard has enabled and in some cases, promoted this type of discourse and behavior amongst students and faculty. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Nitsan, you are a graduate student at Harvard’s Kennedy School of public policy and government. Your classmates are learning how to navigate the complexities of policy negotiations and international diplomacy.  Do the conversations there tend to be elevated compared to the general campus discourse? 

Nitsan Machlis:  

I think this is exactly the vacuum that I've been feeling on campus. It took a very long time to be having serious policy conversations about this topic. And this is at the top policy school in the world. So if we're not having policy conversations on a foreign policy issue, the war in Israel and Gaza, then the people who are going to enter that vacuum are going to be bad actors and are going to be extremist activists sometimes, and their voices will be heard to a disproportional extent. 

Now, I'm not saying these conversations aren't happening at all, because eventually people stepped up and some of my more impressive professors were brave enough to step up into that space. But they've been lone actors in a system that as a whole has not led discourse of this kind.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, they're lone actors. There's not a community, there's not a mass, critical mass that is following in their footsteps. There really are just lone voices.

Nitsan Machlis:  

As students, we've had to push for this. And I think it isn't my role as a student to be asking a policy school to teach me policy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You're not just Jewish, you're also Israeli. Does that help or hinder your role and your ability to carry on these conversations? I mean, you just said you're very critical of Israeli policies. To me I think that would help right in, in fostering conversations and teaching people that, you know, here are, these are policy conversations.

Nitsan Machlis:  

It's a very difficult point. And I think many times, my Israeli identity goes before me and colors anything I say, no matter what my thoughts are on the government, no matter what my thoughts are on Israeli politics. And that's very upsetting. And that's something that many Israeli students have felt on campus. I also think that we're learning how to have these conversations. And we're learning how to be strategic about the people we speak to, and the way we raise awareness. 

I do my best not to give attention to the extreme people, but to work with moderates. And I think most students at the end of the day are a silent majority, who either are unaware of antisemitism happening on campus or are scared to speak up. 

And working with them can be much more effective, in my opinion, than working with people who are shouting the loudest on the edges of the spectrum. And I can speak for the Israeli community at the Harvard Kennedy School, but that's something we've worked on together as a community, how do we target the majority, and not the people who are making us most upset and who gets the headlines, who are speaking on the margins of the campus discourse? 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Being from Israel I imagine it was incredibly difficult to watch abroad, what was happening in your home country? Do you have family or friends who were directly affected on October 7?

Nitsan Machlis:  

My brother had just finished his military service. He's an officer, he had actually come to the States for a visit and to travel after his service a week before October 7. And he got on a plane on October 8, and had been in Gaza for around three months since. 

And this is actually a crazy story. But in one of the only times that he left Gaza during that time, he called me up and he said Nitsan, what's happening in Harvard. And I found that shocking, that someone who was actually at the frontlines and actually in a war and actually endangering their own life, was asking me what's happening on a campus on the other side of the world. And it's crazy, it really is. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It speaks to the effect, the emotional impact on the Jewish community at large around the world, what's happening at such a major college campus. I'm also curious what the reaction on campus has been to you having a brother who's serving on the front lines?

Nitsan Machlis:  

That's a good question. And to be honest, that's something I don't feel comfortable sharing with most people in school. And that's a problem. There are people who know and there are people who have been very supportive. But there are many people who I've been concerned, what will they think of me? What will they think of my family? And it's a very difficult environment to navigate.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I’m sure it is. That would be taxing for any college student whose family is fighting in a war anywhere in the world. Not just with this added element. Nitsan, I certainly will keep your family in my prayers. 

Nitsan, Shabbos: thank you both for sharing your difficult but different experiences on Harvard’s campus.

Nitsan Machlis:  

Thank you. 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Thank you for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's, managing director of policy and political affairs on the efforts in Congress to stand in solidarity with Israeli victims of Hamas’ sexual violence and what you can do to make sure the plight of Israeli women is heard.

During their murderous rampage across Southern Israel on October 7th, Hamas weaponized sexual violence. Over 138 days later, denial of these crimes runs rampant despite verified evidence and testimony from survivors of the NOVA festival, the attacked kibbutzim, and freed hostages. 

Hear from Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, on the efforts in Congress to stand in solidarity with Israeli victims of Hamas’ sexual violence, and what you can do to make sure the plight of Israeli women is heard. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Julie Fishman Rayman

Show Notes:

Act:

• Urge Congress: Condemn Rape and Sexual Violence by Hamas Terrorists

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

• How to Mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day in a Post-October 7th World

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Julie Fishman Rayman:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week, the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel delivered a report to the United Nations detailing the systemic sexual violence committed by the Hamas terror group during and after the October 7 attack on Israel. The horrific report follows a bipartisan resolution adopted by the US House of Representatives last week, condemning the use of rape and sexual violence. Here to discuss that resolution is AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs Julie Fishman Rayman. Julie, welcome.

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Thank you so much, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So anything bipartisan on Capitol Hill is rare and worth discussing. Can you walk our listeners through the details of the resolution and explain why there was such unity around it?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Absolutely. So the resolution was introduced in January. And it really came out of a concerted effort on the part of mostly female members of Congress, who were hearing about what had gone on on October 7, and what was continuing to go on in Israel as it related to gender based violence and sexual assault. 

And they read the tea leaves of the deafening silence on behalf of the global community and said, if people aren't believing Israeli women, we are going to show that Congress, the American Congress, is united in believing Israeli women. So there are two resolutions, in the House and in the Senate, the resolution in the House passed. 

And they're pretty straightforward, expressing this sense, both of outrage and outlining some next steps. So in addition to condemning rape, and all forms of sexual violence as a weapon of war by Hamas, calling on nations to criminalize rape and sexual assault and hold perpetrators accountable, including by armed groups, which is somewhat of a different take on this. 

Calling on international bodies to really condemn these atrocities in a way that we have seen too many of them pause or hesitate or simply remain silent. Reaffirming the US government support for an independent, impartial investigation —this is very important— into what happened on October 7th and afterwards, and reaffirming this commitment to supporting survivors, which is, I think, so critical in this moment.

It’s one of those things you could say, Oh, of course, we support the survivors. But recognizing the reality of what's going on in Israel today, and how this trauma continues to play for those victims, is really critical, right. In this moment, Israel is not focused on supporting the survivors of rape and sexual assault, not because it's not important, but because they're still fighting a war and focusing on you know, rebuilding and what to do with the hundreds of thousands of people who have been displaced from their homes, to elsewhere. 

So in the hierarchy of need, addressing all sorts of trauma, is it has to be sort of lower on the totem pole and hopefully will be addressed. But that's a piece of what the international community can do and what Congress is trying to do. Just express that support and solidarity.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Calling on international bodies to condemn sexual violence, international bodies such as the UN, correct?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Yes. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

All right. Can you tell us a little bit about the report that the Association of Rape Crisis Centers released this week?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

It's a really important report. Not least of which because in some ways it's the first sort of fully fleshed out credible report about the atrocities of the seven. And in a lot of ways it's important also because it pushes us to be uncomfortable, right? 

I think a lot of why this issue has been sidelined or pushed aside is not just because Israel continues to be fighting a war. And their myriad other issues, the release of the hostages, etc, that are really, there's all these competing needs, both in our minds, as people who are sympathetic to these causes, but also in the world, and in terms of advocacy. 

But it really pushes a lot of these deeply uncomfortable themes to the forefront. So for example, there's a whole section in this report about the sadistic practices of Hamas, binding and tying, mutilation or destruction of genitalia, insertion of weapons into intimate areas, destruction and mutilation of the body. It's grotesque. It is hard to read about, it's hard to say. But in some ways, I think that's sort of our responsibility, right?

We who have not thank God lived through this trauma can be the voices for those who have and may not feel comfortable coming forward to tell their stories, may not have the emotional capacity or stamina, to tell their story and relive the horrific trauma that they suffered. So every time I sort of talk about this issue, I try to make whoever I'm speaking to, especially women, say the really uncomfortable things that we're taught as young children not to say in polite society, talk about vaginas, talk about rape, talk about fondling of breasts and mutilation and all of these things. 

Because if we're not comfortable saying it out loud, we're not going to be comfortable doing that advocacy that's so important.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Has sexual violence been used or highlighted as a weapon of war elsewhere, Julie, that we know of?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

It’s enough of an instrument of war, that it's been deemed a war crime. I think that this, like so many things that took place on October 7, it was used to such a degree that the global community at some point will have to reckon with how we treat or how we consider sexual assault as an instrument of war. 

But certainly in lots of other places this is the sad reality. And I would say the sad reality of sort of the treatment of women. But of course, we know from October 7, that it wasn't just women. It was women, children, accounts of men being sexually abused. Even men who are still hostage in the tunnels in Gaza, there are reports of sexual abuse against them. 

So we sort of think about it in terms of gender based and focused specifically and solely on females. But the sad reality is, that's also not the case. And for men, especially, I think the stigma can be that much more heightened. So knowing that it could take years or even decades for us to fully understand the full gravity of the situation of what happened on October 7th against women. When it comes to men and other victims, we may never understand the full scope of what happened and what continues to happen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What is the progress of the resolution in the Senate?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

It's moving. It’s been introduced, it has about a quarter of the Senate as co-sponsors, which is significant. There’s a need for swift movement, I would say and greater advocacy so for listeners, they can go to AJC.org and find our action alert, calling on senators to co-sponsor and support this really important resolution when it's up for a vote. 

This is one where again, our advocacy is critical and sometimes we shy away. But it's much easier to send an email to your Senators than it is to actually have to talk about these really awful issues. 

So for anyone who is looking for a 30 second way to sort of comfortably take action on this important issue, the action alert is a really good and meaningful way to do so.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you kind of walk us through the advocacy efforts that push this through the House of Representatives, but also are pushing it through the Senate? In other words, are there victims participating in this, families of victims? What kinds of stories, and again, this could be a very uncomfortable portion of our conversation, what kinds of stories are being shared with people to convince them to put their name on this resolution?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

A lot of the stories are coming from the family members and loved ones of current hostages. So there's there's an amazing piece of advocacy going on, in the halls of Congress nearly every week that that touches on this, but isn't entirely about the sexual assault. But it's about those families coming whether they're Americans, Israelis, or some other nationality. And they have family members who are still hostage. They are coming week after week, day after day, to speak to members of Congress to keep that issue at the forefront. And of course, for a lot of them the hostage issue is part and parcel integrally connected to the issue of gender based violence. 

So for example, there's a woman who has been to DC several times already. And who is coming back next week to talk specifically about gender based violence. Her name is Yarden Gonen. And she is an amazing advocate for her sister, her sister Romi, who is young, she's in her 20s. She was at the Nova festival. 

And she had this horrific experience of being shot, calling her mother saying I've been shot, I've been bleeding. And while she was on the phone, her mother relays that they heard screaming, screaming in Arabic, screaming in Hebrew. And then the sounds got louder and louder, the voices got louder. And then Romi shut the phone and was taken into Gaza and is still held hostage. She is one of the few women still held hostage. 

And so her sister tirelessly comes to tell her story. With this sort of recognition, this sad recognition that probably all of our worst fears. You know, hopefully not God forbid, but our worst fears about sexual assault are possibly happening to her sister with frequency or regularity. And she's one example you know.

There’s another woman who comes also to advocate in Washington, but elsewhere as well, who actually works on this issue. She works in rape centers and working on sexual assault in Israel for many years. So she comes to talk about her cousins and her family members who experienced a raid on a kibbutz but specifically through this lens and says, I know, the type of trauma that women experience. I know why they don't speak out, why it can take years, even not in war time. And this impossible situation that Israeli women are now being faced with right where they have to before they're ready before they have the emotional capacity, tell their stories because the world is not believing them.

Because there needs to be this public cry, believe Israeli women. Me too unless you're a Jew, all of this you know, horrific silencing, that now they're they're forced into telling these stories and the long standing trauma that will certainly continue. not just because of what they experienced. not because of the sexual assault and rape but then also because of the the repeated trauma of sharing that with others.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Of course, this advocacy is also happening in other countries as well. AJC's Berlin director Remko Leemhuis told us about Shani Louk, another Supernova festival goer, who was actually filmed by terrorists and that film was released. She was experiencing horrible treatment. Unfortunately, she did not survive her captivity. But certainly her story lives on in Germany, and her family has spoken out about some of the crimes committed against her. And there's certainly evidence of that, as well. 

Julie, who were the champions of this resolution on Capitol Hill, who really supported it, lobbied for it. And I'm talking about the US House of Representatives, but also which senators are indeed putting their name on it?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

So in the house, it was really the brainchild of Kathy Manning, Lois Frankel, Mario Díaz-Balart, and Jen Kiggans. And some of those names will probably be familiar to listeners. Kathy Manning is one of the co chairs of the bipartisan Task Force for Combating Antisemitism. Lois Frankel, another very outspoken Jewish female representative, who leads a lot of the sort of women's groups and women's caucuses on Capitol Hill. 

In the Senate, it's an all female cast, which I think is beautiful. In both the House and the Senate, you have two Democrats and two Republicans. But in the Senate, it's all women, Jeanne Shaheen, Kirsten Gillibrand, Doug Fisher and [Katie] Britt from Alabama. They've really emerged as champions on this issue. 

Especially, you know, Kirsten Gillibrand is the senator from New York. She's going to the floor nearly every week to tell the stories of hostage families, about what happened in Israel on the seventh, the sexual assault, etc. And she's not alone. There are true champions that have been kind of tapped into because of this unspeakable trauma. And their voices, I'm sure will outlive this war, certainly, the hostage crisis, I say, hopefully, and with a lot of prayers. That kind of advocacy continues. 

Of course, there are others. Everyone, I'm sure by this point has seen the images of Senator John Fetterman’s office, where he has every single hostage poster, sort of wallpapered in his office. And his staff are tracking who's released, who's still being held, who do we know is already deceased? They're tracking it as closely as the Hostages and Missing Family Forum is in Tel Aviv. They're so on top of it. They're great friends. 

In Congress and the administration around the world. What you said about the work of our Berlin office is absolutely true. These issues are being raised by AJC at the EU in Brussels, in Paris, at the Vatican, really throughout the country and throughout the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The only abstention in Congress was Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, a woman. Has she explained why she saw problems supporting such a resolution, but also why she didn't outright object to it?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Her response was really a case of classic Whataboutism. You know, how can you speak about the Israeli victims while not speaking about Palestinian victims? And that's something that we've heard increasingly on social media. Oh, there are there Palestinian victims as well of sexual abuse. It's a really twisted distortion of reality. While horrible things happen in wartime, there's there's no comparison to Hamas’ systematic, targeted, brutal, sadistic, planned assault on Israeli women and anything that could be happening elsewhere. 

Hamas has really sort of set the benchmark and I say that with some irony for what sexual assault as a weapon of war can look like. So I'm not surprised by Congresswoman Tlaib's vote. It tracks with other votes that she's taken and other statements that she's making. And I think for her, it's very personal. You know, she has Palestinian roots, she has Palestinian family members. So I imagine for her, all of this is very, very personal, very sensitive. And she probably comes to this issue with a great degree of defensiveness as well. That said, the sheer fact that she was standing alone as the only voice not affirming this condemnation, says a great deal.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Did she explain why she didn't outright object to it?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

I don't believe that she did.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What else is AJC trying to accomplish in Washington right now? What more is needed?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Certainly, we need the Senate to pass this resolution. There's this continued fight over foreign aid for Israel. How do we get Israel the support that it needs in terms of material and munitions, etc? And a lot of that is tied up in a political battle over, do we fund Israel alone? Do we find Israel and Ukraine and Taiwan and other allies who are sort of collectively fighting against forces of authoritarianism or anti democratic forces? And then, of course, then there's additional layers, do we also then fund efforts to secure our border in different ways? And the more you sort of add into this pot of money, the more additional avenues or or recipients the more opportunities there are for poisoned pills. 

So AJC is working really hard to try to continue the fight for Israel to get the support they need, for Ukraine to get the support that they need, as they continue to fight Russian aggression. It's an uphill battle. And so, so, so political. But those are the really the key advocacy items. 

And of course, we continue, as I said before, to support a number of family members and loved ones of hostages as they come week after week to tell their stories on Capitol Hill. Next week, actually, we have a delegation specifically to talk about gender based violence. And it's going to include the sister of one of the hostages who I mentioned before, a part of the Zaka search and rescue team who went and saw bodies as they were being prepared for burial and witnessed the clear and really atrocious evidence of sexual assault. 

A reservist for the IDF, who he was off duty, but the minute that he heard the news about the Nova festival and what had happened there, he went to help and try to try to rescue people and saw bodies that had clearly undergone sexual assault. Naked bodies, a male body with cut genitalia, talking about how it's not just women, who are victims here. A woman's body with her breast cut off a young woman with massive bleeding in and around her genitalia. 

And then also a survivor of the Nova festival, who saved himself by hiding in bushes, but heard repeatedly over and over again, the sounds of rapes happening. So we're bringing these people to Washington to tell their stories to members of Congress, to diplomats, to State Department officials and other members of the administration. To continue the momentum. 

We're really lucky that most of the audiences that we'll be reaching, do believe. They've already reached that first hurdle of believing Israeli women, but now need to be urged continuously to take those stories on as as their own to continue that advocacy and to make sure that those stories don't stand on their own, but they have echoes throughout throughout the halls of Congress, throughout Washington throughout you know, the EU, the UN, other multilaterals until this attention really gets this issue really gets the attention that it deserves.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Why aren't women being believed?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

For all, for all conflicts like this, for any other case, massive or individual, where a woman has experienced sexual assault, our first response is supposed to be belief. We're supposed to believe, we're supposed to hear. It is the opposite of innocent until proven guilty, you are a victim until or unless it can be proven otherwise. We start with belief. So the fact that that hasn't been the case here, it defies explanation.

It defies our understanding, and unfortunately, really heightens the need for the victims to tell their stories, the witnesses to tell their stories. It is horrific that these people are being put in this place where they have to continue to tell this story because people aren't believing them. I wish I had a better explanation for why they're why they're not being believed.

That being said, there are reasons voiced as to why Israeli women aren't being believed. There are reasons given that to some may hold sway. And they're worth acknowledging, because that's part of the narrative that is incumbent on all of us to address and rebut.

Part of it we hear is because there's not always that clear cut evidence. This was war time. The worst attack against Jews since the Holocaust. A truly traumatic moment for Israel. They were not doing the job that maybe in retrospect, they should have done in terms of rape kits, and documenting all of that evidence.

For Zaka, the search and rescue team, they traditionally don't take photos, that's not a part of their mandate. And in some ways they feel it's a violation. You know, it's not a part of the holy work that they're doing in terms of collecting body parts and trying to keep victims, victims of terror of the seventh and preceding, trying to keep those victims as whole as possible. So there's this sort of dearth of evidence. But there's plenty of credible accounts. So I say that, but it doesn't explain why people aren't being believed. There's no explanation for that.

ya Brachear Pashman:  

Well thank you so much Julie for joining us. And for those listeners out there who would like to do more and push the senate to adopt that resolution, you can go to AJC.org/BelieveIsraelis.

Julie, thank you.

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Thank you for having me and Manya, I can't thank you enough and People of the Pod enough for shining some light on this really horrific story that needs to be at the forefront of all of our attention. 

One in five U.S. Jews reported that local businesses where they live have been the target of antisemitism in the past five years, revealed AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report, published this week.

To dive deeper into this concerning trend, we spoke with Adam Deutsch who, since October 8, has displayed a “We Stand With Israel Sign” in the window of his Scarsdale, NY ice cream shop. In January, his storefront was spray painted with the words “genocide supporters.” Hear from Deutsch on how his local community rallied against this hateful action and why he’s been even more vocal about his support for the Jewish state and prouder to be Jewish.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Adam Deutsch

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

• How to Mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day in a Post-October 7th World

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: [email protected]

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Adam Deutsch:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The contrast was stark. The words “genocide supporters” scrawled in black spray paint across the windows. On the other side of the glass, giant stuffed animals and pillows embroidered with the abbreviation for I love you so much. This was the scene one morning in January at The Scoop Shop, an ice cream and gift store at a shopping plaza in Scarsdale, New York. The vandals also left their mark on a nearby boutique. Both stores had one thing in common: Jewish owners. 

This week, AJC released The State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report, which for the first time found that one in five American Jews reported local businesses where they live had been the target of antisemitism in the past five years. 

With us to talk about the incident in January is the owner of the Scoop Shop, Adam Deutsch. 

Adam, welcome to People of the Pod.

Adam Deutsch:  

Thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, if you wouldn't mind walking us through that morning when you discovered the graffiti on your storefront.

Adam Deutsch:  

Sure. So my brother actually got a call, we're partners, got a call around 7am rrom the people who do the maintenance in the shopping center. They were with the police who actually noticed the graffiti. So we got a call from them saying that something was written on the store window. 

My brother was in the middle of getting ready to drop his kids off at school so he was planning on coming right after that. He called me. And we met over there and they were already starting to clean it off. But at first I couldn't really read what it said. The handwriting was very mishy mashy. 

But once we actually saw it, we realized that it was not good. Not like it would have been good anyway, graffiti on the store. But we realized it had something to do with the fact that we supported Israel or that we were Jewish or something along those lines. We weren't positive at first.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did the vandals know to target your business? 

Adam Deutsch:  

So we have a sign that says We Support Israel with the Israeli flag in our storefront window. I think it was October 8, someone came to the shopping center and asked if we would put it up. We said absolutely. So we've had it up for a few months. A few shops in the shopping center do as well, the other store that was vandalized did also. 

So I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that I'm Jewish, necessarily. Because how would they know that? However, the fact of what they wrote, that they believe what's going on in Israel is genocide made them write what they wrote.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did law enforcement respond? And I'm also curious if the shopping plaza’s staff contacted law enforcement when they contacted you and your brother?

Adam Deutsch:  

The police were actually, they do rounds in the shopping center. They do like a drive by all the time. So the police actually are the ones that saw what happened, the New Rochelle police department. They, the guys who do the maintenance of the shopping center were changing the garbages at the time. So it was like they told them, they called us. But there was a lot of police presence. And you know, the district attorney's office and there was FBI. I thought it was handled very well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So it sounds like they did report it as a hate crime.

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, so it was originally being reported as a possible hate crime. So I know that they have not caught the person. But I was also told that since it was written on glass, as opposed to brick, which is not permanent. And the fact that it wasn't really derogatory towards Jews or towards any group, that it wouldn't have been a hate crime. If they got caught, they wouldn't have been arrested for a hate crime.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I should add that the AJC survey found that a vast majority of American Jews and American adults, 93% of Jews, 91% of the American public, believe it's important that law enforcement report hate crimes, or even be required to report hate crimes to a federal government database. 

So I wonder if your incident is going to be reported and recorded since it was on glass. So bizarre. 

So and neighbors, how did the neighbors respond?

Adam Deutsch:  

First of all within the first–this was at eight o'clock in the morning, by the time we got there, within the first half hour of us being there, my phone received probably 20-30 text messages. Someone created this flyer that they were planning on doing an ice cream social get together and a pro-Israel rally at four o'clock. 

I was planning on working by myself because it's January in an ice cream store, it's pretty quiet. I right away started texting all my employees, who are in high school. So I knew they couldn't get there until after three o'clock. But I said you got to come. I need everyone here. 

Not knowing exactly what it was gonna be like. But, you know, I was getting texts from everyone, people who belong to all different temples saying that their temple sent this out or, this group on Facebook sent this out. It was building a lot of steam. I was like, something’s gonna be crazy today. 

It was already crazy what we woke up too, but I wasn't expecting it to really inflate business. But I mean, literally from 8:15 in the morning when I walked into the store until 10:30 at night, I didn't sit down once. 

It's still hard for me to grasp what has happened in these last few weeks. But the support from the community and the words that we're getting from everyone, and I mean, I shook hands with more rabbis in the last couple of weeks than I have since my bar mitzvah for sure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I am curious, though, if you changed anything that you did – I've been asking you, how did law enforcement respond? How did neighbors respond? How did you respond? 

Adam Deutsch:  

Aside from being an ice cream shop, we're also a custom gift store. So we do custom shirts, water bottles. We print and we do stuff for teams and schools and everything like that. 

So that morning, my brother had to go to our office, and he was doing an order for a bat mitzvah that weekend. So he literally went to the office, the first thing he did was, he printed five or six more signs, t-shirts that said we stand with Israel and the Scoop Shop logo and the Israeli flag. 

We now have five signs in the front window. He made a few thousand stickers that we were handing out to everyone. We were wearing t-shirts that said, you know that we stand with Israel. And I mean, we've doubled down and we I mean we're standing pretty strong. So that's the biggest thing that changed is that we have more support for Israel signage than we did before.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Had you ever been targeted personally before by antisemitism? 

Adam Deutsch:  

Personally, no. However, in December, my daughter, there was an incident at her school where her and a couple of her friends were just sitting in class, she's in sixth grade. And a kid went up to them and started making some antisemitic comments to them. Not even knowing that they were Jewish, but like, he then asked them if they were Jewish. So the fact that this all happened, and I didn't really put two and two together at first, and I still don't think there's any connection at all. The school handled that. 

But I grew up in New Rochelle, and it's a very large city, and there's a lot of Jewish people in one part of town, and non-Jewish in another part of town and not like it's like, segregated like that. But like, there was always people who just didn't know or didn't understand. And, you know, just thought of us Jews as different, which is the same as it is in the world today. I knew it growing up, but I didn't think twice about it. I mean, I've never seen it as bad as it is now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What sets AJC's survey apart from others is that it measures perceptions of antisemitism, both among American Jews and the American public. And I'm curious what your perception was, before this happened or before October 7 did you sense that antisemitism was already on the rise or not so much?

Adam Deutsch:  

I mean, it's been in the news a lot for the past few months. So like, since October 7, I mean, that's really what put it in my head more like, I always knew it was out there, but I never really thought it was more than usual or that it was more than other races or religion. 

You know, I didn't think it was different than other groups of people. But just seeing on the news since October 7, and everything like that, you see, I mean, literally every, every day on the news, there's something that says the word antisemitism, every day on Facebook, on Instagram, on anything I see online, it's, you hear the word antisemitism.

But I never really saw it in my hometown. I didn't really think it was going to affect me personally, like, at work, or anything like that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Were you afraid? 

Adam Deutsch:  

No. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Or are you afraid? 

Adam Deutsch:  

No. From what happened at the store, I mean, the person was honestly the worst vandal I've ever seen. They wrote a little spray paint on the glass that was literally taken down in five minutes, they wore masks, they were scared. During the rally, there was a rally, and someone came, a pro-Palestine person came wearing a mask, it's like, you're gonna come and talk smack, show who you are. Don't be, you know, don't hide behind something. If you have something to say, say it. 

I mean, I'm not a tough guy by any means. And I'm all for fun, and, you know, not controversy. But if you have a point to make, make it. These people literally came, spray painted in the morning. It's like, if you got something to say, say it to my face.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how do you talk to your children about this, especially since they've encountered some difficulty themselves? Or at least your daughter has?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah. So I mean, look, I watch the news every morning. My kids are getting ready for school. And like, we have like our morning routine, where I'm sitting on the couch at one spot, drinking my coffee, my son's in one other area, getting ready for school, on his iPad, my daughter's doing her thing, my wife's doing her thing. But the news is always on in the background. And it just, you hear it. So like they ask me, you know, what does that mean when they hear the word antisemitism, and you know, we tell them, there are hateful people out there. And a lot of people don't like Jews. I mean, we tell them this has happened for a long, long time, and it's going to continue to happen, but we have to just be strong and be proud of who we are. And they get it, I think, but they're not scared. They're not worried. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think you would have been so brave as to increase your show of support for Israel if the community hadn't rallied around you?

Adam Deutsch:  

Look, to be honest with you, we have the sign in our window, but I haven't really thought much. I mean, I see it every day when I walk in and out of the door. But other than that, it hasn't really crossed my mind too much to be honest with you. I'm not proud of that. Because obviously what's going on over there…I mean, I hear it on the news and I know what's going on, but I'm wrapped up in what's going on in my world here. 

But now that this happened, and the showing of support and the amount of people coming in and thanking us, we're doubling down and putting more signs up, and just telling us how proud they are, and how much they appreciate it.

I mean, all I did was put a sign in the window. I mean, I didn't do anything heroic. I had someone come up to me and said, You're a hero. I mean, that was like, what? You know, that was a little odd, I'm not gonna lie. But, you know, I understand what they're saying. Because we have a way to show to the community that we stand with Israel, because I have a big storefront window that gets a lot of eyeballs on it. But all I did was put a sign in the window and opened my store for business. I don't feel like I did anything really special.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you been kind of part of the Jewish community? Are you part of a congregation, or not really?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, my kids go to Hebrew school. We're raising our kids in the town that we grew up in, New Rochelle. My kids went to nursery school at Kehila, which is at Temple Israel in New Rochelle. That's where we belong as congregants. My daughter is going to be Bat Mitzvahed there in two years, we just got her date a month and a half ago. I mean, we're in it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm just curious if you've had conversations within that community. I mean, you said it was odd to be called a hero for putting a sign in your window. But I'm curious if other people have expressed reticence about showing their support for Israel, because of what's happening?

Adam Deutsch:  

I see a lot of people in the store, from my temple and from all the different temples around just because we're right in the middle of everything. So people have come up to me and told me that they're glad that we did what we did. 

So I got a lot of calls at the store from different rabbis or different clergy from all different religions. When it first happened, but I got a call on my cell phone from my rabbi. So that was, a nice feeling, to get a call from your rabbi. He brought his kids to the, to the rally. I mean, it was knowing that even though I'm not really doing anything, I'm representing either my temple or my people. That's the least I can do.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you been to Israel?

Adam Deutsch:  

I have not. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what prompted you to show such support for a place where you've never been?

Adam Deutsch:  

I mean, I've wanted to go for forever. I do have family that is from there. Plenty of my family members have been there. I just have never had the opportunity. When I was growing up. I mean, birthright wasn't really like a thing. It happened, like a few years after, like, I just like it started really becoming a popular thing after I was, you know, already working full time, and I didn't have time to go travel or do anything like that. But that would have been an amazing thing to do. 

We’cr talked about maybe doing my daughter's Bat Mitzvah in Israel. Now we're not really keen on going there at this moment, you know, but we'd love to, at some point, get there for sure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that a majority of American Jews, 8 in 10, said that when thinking about what being Jewish means to them, caring about Israel is important. Do you agree?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, I mean, it's our place, it's our land. I'm not gonna say our country because it's like, it's not my country. I'm not Israeli. But I feel like it's the land of the Jewish people. It's our homeland. It's where we could all go, we should be able to all go and feel like we belong here. We are here as one.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, the survey’s findings that we've been talking about here certainly show that I'm not alone in occasionally feeling alone as a Jew. Isolated. Once in a while, not all the time. But not always fully free to express my Jewish identity, my anxiety and concern about what's going on. And I host a podcast in the Jewish space. So I can only imagine how others who aren't regularly in this space must feel. What do you say, especially based on what has happened, what do you say to people who have felt that way? 

Adam Deutsch:  

I just think that it's important to know that people are gonna disagree with your beliefs and your feelings and who you are. And it happens all over the world, it happens everywhere. But don't let that change how you feel or how you act because whether you don't see it or feel it on an everyday basis, you have so many people in your corner and that have your back. 

It's like, I can't even put into words the appreciation I have for all the people in the community that have come out and continue to come out. And my brother and I looked at each other and we knew it was going to be busy that day, because there were rumblings. 

We never could have imagined in a million years. That would have been what it was and continued to be what it's been. It's incredible. It's incredible. And we're so grateful for it. 

A terrible thing happened. Not even though they did a good job on it, because like I said, they wrote a little spray paint, they wore a mask. 

But the stupid thing they did turn into an amazing coming together of the community and I'm glad that I can be a part of it because it made me, it made me really just sit back and think for a second how proud I am to be Jewish and to know that my people have gone through stuff like this and a million times worse than this. And we're still here and we're not going anywhere.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience. 

Adam Deutsch:  

Thank you. I do appreciate it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Israeli filmmaker Yoni Diller who escaped the Supernova Music Festival on foot, walking for hours through southern Israel’s desert to safety.