Jennifer Garvey Berger: Changing on the Job

Jennifer Garvey Berger is cofounder and CEO of Cultivating Leadership, a consultancy that serves executives and teams in the private, non-profit, and government sectors. Her clients include Google, Microsoft, Novartis, Wikipedia, and Oxfam International. She is the author of four leadership books, including now in it’s second edition, Changing on the Job: How Leaders Become Courageous, Wise, and Steady in an Anxious World*.

We often think about feedback as something we give to someone else. What if, in addition to that, feedback is an opportunity for both parties to learn and grow. In this conversation, Jennifer and I explore how this can open a door to some of the best leadership work we do.

Key Points

• If we view feedback as only giving our truth to someone else, we’ve missed a huge opportunity for growth.
• Start by separating what happened from the interpretation of what happened.
• Get curious about your own response: what made you react so strongly?
• Talk it out. You have to welcome someone else into your thinking if you’re going to really learn.
• Invite in how the other person sees the situation. Consider saying, “I’m really interested in what this looked like from your perspective.”
• The process of unwinding what you hear is the good work of leadership and some the best work you can do.
• Build a solution together.

Resources Mentioned

• Changing on the Job: How Leaders Become Courageous, Wise, and Steady in an Anxious World* by Jennifer Garvey Berger

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• Essentials of Adult Development, with Mindy Danna (episode 273)
• How to Give Feedback, with Russ Laraway (episode 583)
• How to Lead Better Through Complexity, with Jennifer Garvey Berger (episode 613)

Production Credit

Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroeger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest.

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Anne Chow: Lead Bigger

Anne Chow was the CEO of AT&T Business and the first woman of color CEO in AT&T’s 140+ year history, responsible for leading a $35B global operating unit of over 35,000 people. She was named to Fortune’s Most Powerful Women in Business twice and today serves on a number of boards, including FranklinCovey, 3M, and CSX. She is the author of Lead Bigger: The Transformative Power of Inclusion.

We all know the importance of values, but it’s often hard to know where to begin when clarifying them with a team. In this conversation, Anne and I explore how to align on values that support a great culture and move towards a vision.

Key Points

• Values and ideologies are distinct. Leading bigger means honoring diverse ideologies while aligning on core values.
• Bigger leaders have the courage to admit and cite situations where they fall short.
• When asking people to craft values, invite them to start by individually considering their personal values.
• When discussing values as a group, highlight both the common agreements and also the outlying ideas.
• Leaders must ultimately decide which values best embody the culture and vision of their organization.
• Bring in different stakeholders to do a gut check on whether the values are legitimate.
• Measure behaviors against values and review and update values and metrics regularly.

Resources Mentioned

• Lead Bigger: The Transformative Power of Inclusion by Anne Chow

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)
• How to Discover What Others Value, with Joe Hart (episode 616)
• How to Prevent a Team From Repeating Mistakes, with Robert “Cujo” Teschner (episode 660)

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Karthik Ramanna: The Age of Outrage

Karthik Ramanna is a professor of business and public policy at the University of Oxford’s Blavatnik School of Government, where he has served as director of one of the world’s most diverse leadership programs. Previously a professor at Harvard Business School, he studies how organizations and leaders build trust with stakeholders. He is the author of The Age of Outrage: How to Lead in a Polarized World.

In a lot of ways, leadership is better than it was a generation ago. One way that it isn’t better? Figuring out how to lead effectively in an increasingly polarized world. In this conversation, Karthik and I explore what leaders can do to turn down the temperature on outrage.

Key Points

• We tend to frame effective leadership as heroic. In times of outrage, the virtue of temperance becomes essential.
• A leader will never fully address the demands made of them, regardless of how well they act.
• Even when a leader resolves problems, they will be viewed as part of the problem.
• Anticipate times of outrage and create spaces that calm people physically and help them connect with each other.
• Establish rules of engagement outside moments of outrage so that you have a starting point.
• Create pre-arranged workgroups that can help illuminate a path forward for the larger organization.

Resources Mentioned

• The Age of Outrage: How to Lead in a Polarized World by Karthik Ramanna

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)
• The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)
• Three Practices for Thriving in Negotiations, with William Ury (episode 669)

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David De Cremer: The AI-Savvy Leader

David De Cremer is the Dunton Family Dean of the D’Amore-McKim School of Business and professor of management and technology at Northeastern University. He’s also an affiliated faculty member at the Institute for Experiential AI at Northeastern University and an affiliated researcher at the Center for Collective Intelligence at MIT. His newest book is titled The AI-Savvy Leader: Nine Ways to Take Back Control and Make AI Work*.

We’ve all heard the warnings that AI is going to take our jobs. That’s certainly a possibility in the long term, but the story emerging, at least for now, is looking a little different. In this episode, David and I discuss how leaders can use AI to augment, not replace, human intelligence.

Key Points

• AI is substantially different than prior digital transformations, and adoption efforts are failing at alarming rates.
• Instead of leading, too often leaders are being too deferential to data and analytics teams.
• Your expertise is exactly what your organization needs to deploy AI successfully.
• Leaders who learn the fundamentals of AI will play an essential role in narrating dialogue between the technology experts and everyone else.
• Get just enough foundational knowledge with statistics and modeling to communicate with the data and analytics folks better.

Resources Mentioned

• The AI-Savvy Leader: Nine Ways to Take Back Control and Make AI Work* by David De Cremer

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Solve the Toughest Problems, with Wendy Smith (episode 612)
• How to Begin Leading Through Continuous Change, with David Rogers (episode 649)
• Principles for Using AI at Work, with Ethan Mollick (episode 674)

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Keith Ferrazzi: Never Lead Alone

Keith Ferrazzi is an entrepreneur and global thought leader in high-performing teams and Chairman of Ferrazzi Greenlight and its Research Institute. He is the author of the New York Times bestseller Who’s Got Your Back and bestsellers like Never Eat Alone, Leading Without Authority, and Competing in the New World of Work. His newest book with Paul Hill is titled Never Lead Alone: 10 Shifts from Leadership to Teamship*.

Whenever I’m having a conversation with someone about getting better at coaching, it’s almost always through the lens of, “How do I do it well?” In this conversation, Keith and I explore another perspective most of us miss: how does the team do coaching better for each other.

Key Points

• Good leaders give feedback and hold people accountable. Great leaders ensure the team gives feedback and holds people accountable.
• Teamship starts right at the start. Organizations like e.l.f. Beauty begin these practices during onboarding.
• We over-index on mindset. Starting with the right practices will shape the beliefs that help teamship emerge.
• Use an open 360 where people share one thing they appreciate/admire/respect and one thing they suggest.
• The 5/5/5 Learning Roadmap invites team members to share a struggle, respond to questions, and receive feedback.
• We’re used to feedback being directive. Feedback from peers is data. We can consider it without acting on it.

Resources Mentioned

• Never Lead Alone: 10 Shifts from Leadership to Teamship* by Keith Ferrazzi

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How Top Leaders Influence Great Teamwork, with Scott Keller (episode 585)
• Becoming More Coach-Like, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 680)
• Team Collaboration Supports Growth Mindset, with Mary Murphy (episode 695)

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Charles Feltman: The Thin Book of Trust

Charles Feltman is the founder of Insight Coaching. He has over 25 years of professional experience coaching, facilitating, consulting to, and training people who lead others. He is the author of The Thin Book of Trust: An Essential Primer for Building Trust at Work*.

It’s a reality of life that we need to interact with some people we’d rather not. And it’s absolutely a reality of leadership, that sometimes we need to have a conversation with someone we don’t quite trust. In this episode, Charles and I explore how to prepare so it goes better for both parties.

Key Points

• The four assessment domains of trust include care, sincerity, reliability, and competence.

Seven steps to prepare for a conversation:

1. Identify the assessment(s) you are concerned with: care, sincerity, reliability, and/or competence.
2. Define the standard you are using.
3. Identify the specific actions or behaviors that have led to your assessment of distrust.
4. Consider what you are doing that may be contributing to the situation.
5. Determine what you need from them in order for them to regain your trust.
6. Decide if you are willing to talk to the person about it.
7. Ask the other person if they would be willing to have a conversation with you.

Resources Mentioned

• The Thin Book of Trust: An Essential Primer for Building Trust at Work* by Charles Feltman

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Handle Pushback From Difficult Askers, with Vanessa Patrick (episode 637)
• How to Help Difficult Conversations Go Better, with Sheila Heen (episode 655)
• How to Change People’s Minds, with Michael McQueen (episode 676)

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Stephen M. R. Covey: Trust & Inspire

Stephen M. R. Covey is a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author and former CEO of Covey Leadership Center. He led the strategy that propelled his father’s book, Dr. Stephen R. Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, to become one of the two most influential business books of the 20th Century, according to CEO Magazine. He’s the author The Speed of Trust and more recently Trust & Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others*.

Despite everything we know about good leadership, a lot of places still operate in a command and control mindset. In this conversation, Stephen and I explore the key ways to shift from command and control to trust and inspire.

Key Points

• In spite of all progress, most leaders today are still operating from a command and control mindset.
• The carrot and stick approach still dominates most organizational cultures and tactics.
• The biggest barrier to becoming a Trust & Inspire leader is when we think we already are one.
• People are whole people. The best leaders care for the body, heart, mind, and spirit.
• There is enough for everyone. Trust & Inspire leaders elevate caring above competition.
• Enduring influence is created from the inside out. The job of the leader is to go first.
• All people have greatness inside them. Trust & Inspire leaders work to unleash potential, not control it.

Resources Mentioned

• Trust & Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others* by Stephen M. R. Covey

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)
• Leadership Means You Go First, with Keith Ferrazzi (episode 488)
• The Starting Point for Repairing Trust, with Henry Cloud (episode 626)

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Shandy Welch: Leadership Coach

Shandy Welch is an executive leadership coach. Her coaching focus is around humanizing leadership and re-engaging individuals and teams to inspire change and innovation. She is also a Coaching for Leaders Fellow.

Most leaders find themselves — at least occasionally — in conversations with people who intimidate them. In this SaturdayCast, Shandy and I share what’s worked for us and how it might help you have better conversations.

Key Points

• Nervousness is your friend. If you feel it, that means you care. Try to get the butterflies flying in formation.
• You are there because you are the best person to be there. Full stop.
• People with visibility will expect you’ve done your homework. If they’ve put something out into the world, they want you to find it.
• Preparation helps you improvise. “You’ve got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail.” -Charlie Parker
• Always assume there is something you can do to help out someone else. Consider their perspective and what they gain from the meeting with you.
• Everybody has doubts and struggles. Remember the humanity that’s present in every interaction.

What was helpful to you from our conversation? We’d love to know. Share it with Shandy at [email protected]

Related Episodes

• How to Talk to People Who Have Power, with Jordan Harbinger (episode 343)
• How to Help People Speak Truth to Power, with Megan Reitz (episode 597)
• Set the Tone for Speaking Up, with Mike Massimino (episode 672)

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Steve Dennis: Leaders Leap

Steve Dennis is a strategy consultant, advisor, speaker, and author focused on transformational leadership and the impact of digital disruption. He is the president of SageBerry Consulting and host of the Remarkable Retail podcast. He’s the author of the book Remarkable Retail and his newest book Leaders Leap: Transforming Your Company at the Speed of Disruption*.

Every leader needs to stay relevant in order to serve well. In this conversation, Steve and I explore the mindset and tactics that will help us lead in the context of an ever-changing world.

Key Points

• Self-sufficiency is a virtue, until it’s not. Learning to ask for help is a key practice for leaders.
• Be cautious about a deserving attitude. High expectations may be correlated with low resilience.
• Seek insight everywhere. It’s no longer sufficient just to gain ideas from direct competitors.
• Turning pro means showing up and doing the work, especially when we don’t feel like it.
• We must go through discomfort, not around it. Radical acceptance of truth will help you stay relevant in changing times.

Resources Mentioned

• Leaders Leap: Transforming Your Company at the Speed of Disruption* by Steve Dennis

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Win the Long Game When the Short-Term Seems Bleak, with Dorie Clark (episode 550)
• How to Help People Engage in Growth, with Whitney Johnson (episode 576)
• How to Keep Improving, with Maurice Ashley (episode 697)

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Seth Godin: This is Strategy

Seth Godin has published 21 bestselling books that have changed the way people think about work. He writes one of the most popular blogs in the world, and two of his TED talks are among the most popular of all time. His blog is at seths.blog and his newest book is titled This is Strategy*.

Seth writes this: “It’s not clear to me why business plans are the way they are, but they’re often misused to obfuscate, bore, and show an ability to comply with expectations.” In this conversation, Seth and I explore the key components of a modern business plan.

Key Points

• Big problems require small solutions.
• We often skip strategy because most of us have trained our whole lives for tactics.
• A modern business is clear about systems and the status quo. Use the system if you intend to change the system.
• Assertions are the heart of a business plan. Leaders need to have empathy for someone else’s “better.”
• Articulating alternatives helps you stay resilient when some of your assertions are inevitably wrong.
• Find people to support you who have a track record of shipping.
• A useful business plan gets easier over time and persists (and maybe even thrives) when the world changes.

The six sections of a modern business plan:

1. Truth
2. Assertions
3. Alternatives
4. People
5. Money
6. Time

Resources Mentioned

• This is Strategy* by Seth Godin

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How Leaders Build, with Guy Raz (episode 491)
• How to Grow Your Business, with Donald Miller (episode 629)
• Doing Better Than Zero Sum-Thinking, with Renée Mauborgne (episode 641)

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Maha Abouelenein: 7 Rules of Self-Reliance Maha Abouelenein is an American Egyptian with more than 30 years of global communications experience advising global corporate giants, startups, governments, CEOs and high-net-worth individuals. She is the CEO of Digital and Savvy, a strategic communications consulting firm with offices in the States and Dubai. Maha is the author of 7 Rules of Self-Reliance: How to Stay Low, Keep Moving, Invest in Yourself and Own Your Future*. One of the definitions of the word currency in Merriam-Webster’s dictionary is, “General use, acceptance, or prevalence.” All of us want to be both accepted and prevalent in the work we get to do. In this conversation, Maha and I discuss how your reputation is perhaps the most important currency of all. Key Points Personal brand isn't about self promotion, it's about leadership. Rather than promoting yourself, promote the ideas that you stand for. Reputation is currency. It’s the only thing you truly own and its value comes from how other people perceive it. Sometimes it’s the right move to take a job to earn. It’s also important to take jobs to learn. Knowing what you stand for is key, but this doesn’t come overnight. We all make missteps. What’s often more remembered is how you respond. Apologize and have empathy when things go wrong. Resources Mentioned 7 Rules of Self-Reliance: How to Stay Low, Keep Moving, Invest in Yourself and Own Your Future* by Maha Abouelenein Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes Making the Case for Your Promotion, with May Busch (episode 526) How to Tell a Story About Yourself, with David Hutchens (episode 661) An Invitation for Kindness in Leadership, with James Rhee (episode 693) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.