Have you ever had a friend not text you back, and you’re certain that they’re mad at you? This is often a disruption in the process of mentalization: the ability to recognize that our thoughts and feelings might not be facts. Mentalization is a process we can all struggle with, but it’s particularly important for people who have Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).

In this episode, Forrest is joined by psychotherapist and author Robert Drozek to discuss mentalization-based treatment (MBT) and the tools that can help us develop more flexibility and curiosity around our assumptions. Bob outlines the three common modes of mentalizing, explains how childhood experiences shape mentalization, and offers a map for building healthier ways of relating to our thoughts and feelings. 

About our Guest: Robert Drozak is a clinical social worker, the clinical director of the Mentalization-Based Treatment Clinic at McLean Hospital, and a teaching associate in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. His new book, Mentalization: Utilizing Reflection to Heal from Borderline Personality Disorder, is the first book about Mentalization-Based Treatment aimed at a general audience. 

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: what is mentalization?

5:12: Ways mentalization can go wrong

13:25: Borderline Personality Disorder as a deficit in mentalization

22:13: How mentalization is shaped in childhood

28:54: The alien self

32:23: Developing an MBT formulation

42:03: MBT in the therapy room

54:40: Challenging your beliefs and assumptions

1:11:21: How to get out of pretend mode

1:21:37: Addressing problems with interoception

1:30:00: Recap

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Why does knowing we overthink not help us stop? Dr. Rick and Forrest discuss why rumination becomes a self-reinforcing habit,  and why insight alone rarely helps. They distinguish between rumination and reflection, and talk about how balancing acceptance and agency can help us go from one to the other. Forrest talks about the relationship between overthinking and feelings of disappointment and failure, and Rick shares practical ways to interrupt the cycle, shift into more concrete forms of problem-solving, and finally stop ruminating.

Rick's Rumination Course: If rumination is a persistent issue for you, check out Rick’s five-week online course focused on practical tools for letting go of these negative thought loops. Learn more at RickHanson.com/ruminating, and use coupon code BeingWell25 to receive a 25% discount.

Previous episodes on rumination and overthinking:

• Breaking the Self-Awareness Trap: How to Stop Overthinking | Being Well
  
• 
  Rumination: How to Disrupt Obsessive Thoughts

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: what is rumination

5:35: Why we ruminate

21:06: Why rumination doesn't help us

25:24: Moving from rumination to reflection

31:35: Rumination as a habit

38:40: Interrupting the rumination habit

46:44: Radical helplessness and radical resourcefulness

53:43: More ways to move from abstract to concrete thinking 

1:07:23: The role of mindfulness

1:13:32: Recap

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In this very special episode, Dr. Jacob Ham and associate therapist Elizabeth Ferreira join me to discuss their work as trauma therapists. They talk openly about the messy, unglamorous reality of struggle, mistakes, and repair that characterizes trauma work, its nature as both art and science, how their work has changed over time, and what they’ve learned along the way. Topics include self-disclosure, working with shame and grief, dealing with situations where the client wants an apology, the difference between trauma work and more manualized approaches, therapist training and supervision, and “polishing the mirror.” 

I loved listening to Dr. Ham and Elizabeth talk during this episode. It’s a truly unique one, and I hope you enjoy it. 

About our Guest: Dr. Jacob Ham is a clinical psychologist, Associate Clinical Professor at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and the Director of the Center for Complex Trauma there. He's the clinician featured in Stephanie Foo’s wonderful book What My Bones Know.

Key Topics : 

0:00: Introduction and nervousness

6:21: The role of disclosure

11:34: Mistakes, rupture, and repair

23:20: Sharing grief

33:04: Supervision and parallel process 

36:29: Therapy as an art form

47:52: Structure, flexibility, and 'opening the hand'

52:50: A listener question: how to let it all go

1:02:40: How trauma work changes you

1:07:46: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest explore the lessons we can learn from two of Humanistic psychology’s more challenging branches: existential psychology and transpersonal psychology. Existential psychology asks what it means to build a meaningful life in the face of death, while Transpersonal psychology wonders if the individual self is what we should be so focused on. Forrest and Rick focus on the work of Rollo May, Irvin Yalom, Abraham Maslow, and Stanislav Grof, and major themes include freedom, agency, anxiety, the limits of the “self,” and how confronting these can lead to a fuller and more meaningful life. 

Rick’s Self-Worth Course: Starts this week! In this 6-week online course, Rick will guide you in practical, research-backed ways to release old patterns and grow a lasting sense of confidence, kindness toward yourself, and genuine self-worth. Learn more at RickHanson.com/worthy and use coupon code BeingWell25 to receive a 25% discount.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and recap of humanistic psychology

6:12: History and context of existential psychology

12:04: Three important lessons from existentialism

26:03: Agency and meaning making within existential psychology

38:38: Overview of transpersonal psychology

1:00:43: Three important lessons from transpersonal psychology

1:11:14: Closing reflections, and a one word summary

1:14:07: Recap

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Why don’t we choose the things we know are good for us? It’s usually because we’re struggling with self-regulation, one of the most important (and most misunderstood) skills out there. In today’s episode, Forrest talks with Eric Zimmer about what healthy self-regulation actually looks like,  the gap between insight and action, how shame can derail us, and why most change comes down to small steps taken consistently. They discuss how to figure out what actually matters to you vs. what you want right now, the tension between acceptance and change, and how to get back on track after a slip without making it worse.

About our Guest: Eric Zimmer is the creator of The One You Feed, an award-winning podcast with over 50 million downloads. He’s also the author of the new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: Why is self-regulation so important?

4:32: Moving from insight to action

8:14: Values versus desires

14:25: Eric’s sobriety journey

20:57: Changing our relationship to shame

32:05: When to accept things as they are, and when to move from acceptance to change 

38:17: Choosing the more useful meaning

42:51: How to get over self-doubt

46:41: Having a backup plan for when things go sideways

53:54: Balancing striving with non-craving

1:06:16: Recap

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Why is it so hard for us to do what we actually want to do? In this episode, Forrest explains the hidden structure of self-abandonment: how shame drives the loop, how the loop produces more shame, and how the inner critic uses a “can’t win” situation to keep us stuck. Then he and Dr. Rick explore what actually breaks the cycle, including the role of anger, the difference between shame and grief, self-compassion, and what it really means to get on your own side.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and overview of self-abandonment

4:38: What are we abandoning?

8:30: The self-abandonment loop

21:55: How a parts model can help us understand the shame

26:20: The double-bind of self-criticism

32:56: How to get out of the double-bind

41:34: Anger and resentment

49:47: Moving from shame to grief

56:15: Breaking the self-abandonment loop

1:10:22: Recap

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Forrest is joined by associate therapist and his fiancée Elizabeth Ferreira for an honest, personal conversation about what it's actually like to be in a relationship when one partner is living with trauma, complex PTSD, or another ongoing mental health challenge. Drawing on their experience together, they discuss supporting without enabling, avoiding power imbalances, managing resentment, dealing with moments of frustration, and the importance of reciprocity. Elizabeth has some thoughts about the DSM. Forrest shares about how Elizabeth has supported him. It’s a good one.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and Elizabeth’s overview

5:50: How trauma shapes you

9:05: How Elizabeth found safety in her relationship with Forrest

11:12: How the relationship helped Forrest grow

15:44: Self-discovery through relationship

21:19: How to effectively support a partner with mental illness

33:42: Being ‘sturdy’

39:18: Navigating criticism

43:30: Communicating without resentment or shame

54:57: Avoiding stigma, and why Elizabeth wants to throw the DSM out the window

59:52: Not buying in to the smallest version of your partner

1:04:27: Recap

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Have you ever walked back into your parents' house and suddenly felt like you'd downloaded an old version of yourself? In today’s episode, Dr. Rick and Forrest explain why through one of the most influential frameworks in psychology: Family Systems Theory (FST). 

FST argues that hidden rules govern the behavior of the groups we’re a part of, and when you know the rules it’s easier to see them in action. Rick and Forrest explore how systems replicate patterns of behavior, place people into specific roles, and manage anxiety through shifting alliances. They close with how we can become differentiated by building a stronger sense of self. Topics include balancing closeness and distance, triangulation, specific roles like the “golden child,” FST’s non-pathologizing stance, the intergenerational transmission of patterns, and building strong relationships outside the system.

This episode includes references to self-harm.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro

2:19: What’s Family Systems Theory?

12:01: Overview of big concepts in FST

18:50: Family roles

25:19: How anxiety moves through a family system

36:42: The “identified patient”

46:51: Balancing compassion, agency, and responsibility

51:11: How healthy differentiation can disrupt a system

57:48: How to become more differentiated

1:11:33: Recap 

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Forrest is joined by journalist and author Michael Easter to discuss how we can make our lives better by making them (the right kind of) harder. They start with one of modern life’s paradoxes: things have gotten much easier, but this hasn’t led to more happiness or fulfillment. Michael talks about how our biological wiring backfires in today’s world of abundance, why humans need a mission, and the vital experiences we’ve lost. Other topics include problem creep, how everything has become a slot machine, rucking, and the “super medium” body.

About our Guest: Michael Easter is a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, journalist, and best-selling author of The Comfort Crisis, Scarcity Brain, and Walk with Weight. Michael is also the author of the #1 Substack in the Health & Wellness category, Two Percent.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro

2:10: How our world became engineered for comfort

7:39: Problem creep

10:49: Michael’s experience with sobriety

15:00: Abundance in today’s world: the industrial revolution, social media, and slot machines

21:17: Why we need a mission

25:31: Building resilience in a world of comfort and abundance

29:30: Personal agency vs systemic forces

38:09: The lost experience of boredom

48:19: Walking with weight

1:00:46: Getting back into nature

1:10:41: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest answer listener questions about the freeze state, ADHD, and power imbalances in relationships. First, they talk about how to deal with feelings of shame associated with the freeze state, emphasizing how we can “be with” in order to “work with.” Then they tackle a tricky question about how psychoeducation can complicate relationships. Next up, they discuss whether rates of ADHD have actually increased, and the differences between “real” ADHD vs. symptoms of screen addiction. Finally, they talk about how to think about the right fit with a therapist. 

Key Topics: 

0:00: Introduction

1:17: Question 1: Shame and the freeze state

19:12: Question 2: “My partner’s lack of psychoeducation is frustrating me!”

33:56: Question 3: “Why does everyone have ADHD?”

46:21: Question 4: “What’s the right amount of directness in therapy?”

56:01: Recap

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Protect your peace, set boundaries, don't let people drain your energy…there’s a lot of advice like that, and it’s easy to take it a little too far. Therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab joins Forrest to discuss the unintended consequences of the boundaries movement. 

They talk about how the helpful concept of boundaries led some toward isolation and rigid standards, and focus on healthy dependency: the reality that we all need other people. Nedra explains the spectrum from codependency to hyper-independence, why your attachment style is more flexible than you think, and how the stories we tell about ourselves become self-fulfilling. Throughout, they focus on developing key aspects of healthy dependency: being able to ask for help, receive support, tolerate distance, feel comfortable in closeness, and repair after conflict. 

About our Guest: Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist, relationship expert, and best-selling author with over 2 million followers on social media. Her new book is The Balancing Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: Misconceptions around boundaries

7:14: What we get wrong about codependency

11:13: The consequences of individualism

15:00: How this all relates to attachment styles

20:03: Personal narratives and self-concept

24:50: Opposite action vs. trusting your gut

27:46: Developing self-awareness around your tendencies

34:42: Navigating distance and boundaries in relationships

44:30: Showing up for friends in difficult relationships

52:50: How to be in imperfect relationships 

55:51: How to move out of the shallow zone in relationships 

1:07:20: Recap

Support the Podcast: We're on Patreon! If you'd like to support the podcast, follow this link.

Sponsors

Grab Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code BEINGWELL at huel.com/beingwell. New customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show!

Go to Zocdoc.com/BEING to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.

Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at shopify.com/beingwell.

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