Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion – Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay. She’s written two books – Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry.

In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track.

Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today.

Topics Covered:

• How Natalie discovered this concept of “Raised to Stay”
• Worship as a church growth tool
• How to approach a full time ministry role
• Why our emphasis on leadership is hurting our leadership
• The idol of green rooms
• The entitlement of worship leaders
• Why the conversation around “anointing” needs to change
• The tension and struggle of being a female worship pastor

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025)
• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Raised to Stay (website)
• Raised to Stay: Persevering in Ministry When You Have a Million Reasons to Walk Away by Natalie Runion
• The House That Jesus Built: Leading Our Churches Back to God’s Original Blueprint by Natalie Runion
• Instagram.com/raisedtostay

Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies

This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies. 

One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. 

I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough.

IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you.

Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.

Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #351: Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• Unlearning and deciphering mega church worship models
• Why it’s not our job to move the room
• Trusting the Holy Spirit as a worship leader
• How the Church Growth movement has effected the role of worship leaders
• Why we have elevated young leaders too soon
• An alternative to big, massive, mega church worship

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Level Up Coaching for Female Creatives w/ Becky Ykema
• Becky’s website
• How Firm a Foundation by Hymns of the People
• Pastors, Priests, & Guides – the retreat that Becky is a part of
• Slingshot Group – Staffing & Coaching for churches & nonprofits

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #350: Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• Why Gospel Music is fringe within the church
• Why we need diversity and how to encourage it
• Matters of race and racism in the church
• Finding your voice and being comfortable in your own skin
• Why we don’t understand the systemic nature of racism and can’t always see it
• Darwin’s upcoming new Setlist project

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Darwin Hobbs website (Heart Art Worship)
• Champion by Darwin Hobbs
• Darwin Hobbs Instagram

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #349: Darwin Hobbs on Finding Your Voice, Gospel Music in the Church, & Why We Can’t Stop Talking About Racism. appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• The story behind David’s new studio
• The importance of creating in community
• The challenges of being a Christian artist in 2025
• What is exciting about worship music today
• Challenges with worship music today

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Just Jesus by David Leonard
• David Leonard
• Gruhn Guitars
• Deliver Me From Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen’s Nebraska by Warren Zanes

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #348: David Leonard on Creating in Community, Corporate Worship, & The Challenges of Being an Artist appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today we welcome Jeff Cochran to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. Jeff is the founder of the Spiritual Abuse Institute and the host of the Church Disrupted podcast.  Jeff is a business owner, church consultant, and has spent many years in local church ministry. His insights into spiritual abuse, church systems, and creating healtheir churches is so insightful. These are TOUGH TOPICS but so necessary to talk about so that we not only create GROWING church but also SAFE churches, free of abusive practices.

Topics Covered:

• The definition of spiritual abuse and how to spot it
• Why pastors have a hard time admitting to their faults
• Spiritual abuse in small and mega churches
• What is especially challenging about mega church culture
• Mega church growth systems and what to be aware of
• How spiritual abuse finds its way into worship ministry

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Spiritual Abuse Institute
• The Safe Church Pledge
• Church Disrupted Podcast

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #347: Jeff Cochran on Spiritual Abuse, Mega Church Systems, & Fostering Healthier Worship Ministries appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• The Religious Exemption and what it means
• How we can use worship as a subtle form of manipulation
• The mega church structure and the dangers associated with it
• Integrity in church financials
• The upcoming Religious Business documentary
• Accountability in the church and a robust hope for the future

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• @thereligionbusiness

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #346: Nathan Apffel & Chris Ayoub on The Religion Business appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• How New Life Fellowship cultivates a multicultural community
• How to hold the contemplative and the charismatic together
• How to lead congregations with different political views
• Why church growth is unhealthy to obsess over
• Pastoring people through racial tension
• A biblical view of worship ministry

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Rich Villodas
• @richvillodas
• The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas
• Good and Beautiful and Kind by Rich Villodas
• The Narrow Path by Rich Villodas

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #345: Rich Villodas on Contemplative vs Charismatic Tensions, Church Growth, & The Narrow Path of Jesus appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

“We’ve made the list of everything that could go wrong. It’s time to make the list of everything that could go right.” – Nikki Lerner

Topics Covered:

• What it’s like to leave full time ministry after 20+ years
• The challenge of doing ministry when you’re paid to do it full time
• The importance of creative outlets outside of the church
• What to do when you’re bored with worship music
• Nikki’s philosophy of worship
• How to become a multicultural church
• The difference between multi colored and multicultural
• Mono-ethnocentricism and the worship industry

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Nikki Lerner

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #344: Nikki Lerner on Life After Full Time Ministry, Worship Culture Conundrums, & Fostering Multicultural Churches appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• Malcolm’s story of activism in South Africa
• Similarities of American culture today with South Africa in the 1970s and 80s.
• The spiritual underground and what that means
• What it means to be a Kingdom of Priests
• The problem with becoming comercially viable
• The story behind Common Hymnal’s new “Be Love” song

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Be Love by Common Hymnal
• Common Hymnal
• The King Center
• Common Hymnal Patreon

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #343: Malcolm DuPlessis on Racial Tension, Injustice, & The Commercialization of Worship appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• 5 of the biggest needs facing worship leaders right now
• The reality of worship ministry
• The difference between artist and worship leader
• The gift of obscurity
• The tensions of not earning worship artist fame
• To use tracks or not to use tracks?
• Practical tips for speaking from the stage

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Three Streams Worship – Mike’s Ministry

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #342: Mike O’Brien on Worship Artist/Leader Tensions, Local Church Ministry, & The Gift of Obscurity appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

• Why deconstruction is a prophetic warning to the church
• Tommy’s deconstruction journey and why he became a Pastor
• Why most evangelical churches today lack engagement
• The problem with the worship industry and local church worship
• Why people are leaving the church
• Why the modern mega church looks more like Babylon than Christ

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Invisible Jesus by Scot McKnight & Tommy Preson Phillips
• Tommy’s Substack
• Preson Phillips Music
• Watermark Church – where Tommy pastors

Show Sponsor:

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.

The post #341: Tommy Preson Phillips on Why People Are Leaving The Church To Look For Christ appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.