This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps

To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page

To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We’re Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Join us for an enriching conversation on Podcasting to Create Connection with Chrysa Sto. 

In this episode, we explore the main fears that hold people back, strategies for consistently discovering captivating guests, and how podcasts can seamlessly integrate into your broader business strategy. 

Discover an often overlooked yet powerful method for fostering direct engagement with your audience while exploring the future of this dynamic medium. 

Are you ready to harness the power of podcasting to cultivate genuine connections and drive positive change? 

Let’s dive in.

In this conversation we talked about:

• The main fear of people starting their own podcast
• How to continuously find new interesting guests
• How a podcast fits into an overall business strategy
• An overlooked yet simple strategy to directly interact and engage with your listeners
• The future of podcasts…
• and much more...

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Ep 189

[00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today’s conscious customers because it’s humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I’m Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. If after listening to the show for a while, you’re ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we’re doing.

Works and what doesn’t work in business, then we’d love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you’re picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn’t work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it’s for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I’d love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Ep 188 intro: Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today’s conversation fits under the piece of partnership, promotion, and even people and product. So kind of fits everywhere. I’m talking to Carissa Stowe about podcasting. If you’re a regular here, you know that I’m organizing these conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

And if this is your first time here, maybe you’re one of Krisa’s people, [00:03:00] big warm welcome. You probably don’t know what I’m talking about. What’s the seven P’s in Mandala? Well, you can go over to humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven P’s of humane marketing.

And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P’s. And I’m actually recording a mini. Muse episodes around these seven Ps that I will all upload to a blog post around them, and you’ll find the recordings in there. And that’s at humane. marketing. com forward slash seven Ps, the number seven.

Letters P and S. So today’s show, let me tell you a little bit more about CRISA. CRISA helps human centered, eco conscious businesses and change makers launch [00:04:00] and manage podcasts that feel authentic and sound good. She’s dedicated to helping you utilize podcasting to establish credibility and brand awareness, create connections with potential clients, and foster meaningful relationships that result in increased business opportunities.

In our conversation, we talked about the main fear of people starting their own podcast, how to continuously find new interesting guests, how a podcast fits into an overall business strategy. An overlooked yet simple strategy to directly interact and engage with your listeners, and you’ll hear on this episode how even I overlooked it, or I had it in place, but never used it.

So you’ll find that out later in the episode. And we also talk about the future of podcasts and Chris’s opinion on that and so much more. So [00:05:00] without further ado, let’s dive in.

video1496172371: Hey Chrysa, so good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about podcasting. And we just had like a stressful moment before getting on with the tech and my mic all of a sudden not working and we were just laughing because Right. That’s exactly what we’re talking about today. This show the technical issues and not just that, but that’s usually where people are like, Oh, my God, all this tech that’s involved, but anyways.

Thank you so much for being here on the show. Thank you for having Sarah. It’s really nice to connect and talk with you. Yeah. It’s been a long time in the making. We’ve connected so long ago. It seems like, even though probably for you, the time just flew by because you had a baby and time is just different when you have a baby, right?

It seems like it just flies by. Here we are. Yeah. So [00:06:00] almost probably a year after connecting for the first time. So, yeah. So today this today. Yeah. So glad to be here. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, let’s just get started with the tech because I think that’s you know, one of the things that a lot of entrepreneurs worry about when it comes to podcasting.

But it’s not the only thing we’re going to be talking about on today’s show, but I think it’s a good way to start. So how much do we really need to worry about the tech? Is that a big deal? Mm hmm. It’s always a question that comes up, especially for people who are either starting out or have some, you know issues with tech.

So In the question, how much tech do you need to get started? For example, the barrier to entry is low, so you don’t need much of a tech to get started. You need [00:07:00] a microphone, a decent web camera, if you don’t have like, for example, A mireless or a DSLR but definitely you don’t need to break the bank with a microphone and from the ease of your computer of your home you can record a podcast with of course you need a recording platform like zoom or Riverside or squad cast.

There are numerous Platforms out there that you can record a show and have a good quality audio. But to get started, I would say it’s pretty straightforward, easy to get started with a microphone, a camera and a recording software. Thank you. Yeah. I think that a lot of people are kind of like, oh, can relax their shoulders.

So what, let’s just explain what just happened when we logged on, right? So I do what I always do. I check the mic before I hit recording or before the guest even goes, gets on. And so [00:08:00] when you I let you in all of a sudden I noticed that my mic is not showing up in the, in the settings. And then I realized, well, it’s not even, like, usually there’s a small blue light mic that I use and I use a Rode desktop mic.

And so I’m like, well, trying to plug it in to different ways, unplug it, et cetera. Because I do feel like it helps to have a good mic to record a podcast. But then we decided, okay, well, let’s go ahead anyways to record it because actually I use some tools. That helped with the recording anyways after.

And so I shared with you that I use a site called a phonic where I didn’t upload and that kind of equalizes the sound and it usually is pretty good. So that’s what just happened before we hit record. So yeah, a good mic is [00:09:00] definitely a huge plus, but like you said, you don’t need to break the bank. So what do you feel like, and then you actually.

Mentioned lighting because we’re recording this also on YouTube. What would you say is more important, the light or the sound? Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. Thanks for asking. And what I would say about that is, It’s usually 50 percent of the, of the success depends on the audio. So even if you have the, like the best camera and your audio is, is, is bad, is poor things won’t be you know, presented as, as as, as they should, if you had poor audio.

a decent web camera or a decent camera and a decent microphone, if that makes sense. So it’s 50 50, it’s 50 50, but the audio part, I feel it’s more important because people can, [00:10:00] can view and watch and not show crystal clear, clear, you know, image, video on their, on their, on their phone or on their computer, but they don’t, they cannot hear a poor recorded audio, if that makes sense.

It’s really annoying to listen to something that you can’t. Barely here or there’s like background noise. It’s yeah, you get annoyed faster. I think with your ears than with your eyes. Exactly. Yeah. And because we’re talking about the podcast, which was mainly An audio experience now, certainly like the, the few years the last few years have become like video.

There are so many video first podcasts out there, but at first it was originally an audio experience. So if we consider that the audio experience and the people have you. Plugged in their [00:11:00] headphones and always on the go, they need to have like a great audio and listening experience. Right. Hmm. Yeah. So let’s expand a little bit further.

So, okay. We know that good sound is important. What else makes a successful podcast in your opinion? Yeah I mean, this is a question that the answer is it depends because success to me, for example, might be different from what you define success to be. So it depends on, on the podcasters goals, objectives.

And needs like how the podcast is contribute, contributes to, you know, for example, if those people are business owners it depends for every people is different. But I would say for. People like me or like, like for coaches, consultants, service providers, a successful podcast is [00:12:00] like the, the core of your content is, is, is a channel that you have.

build your network on. You can use this channel and this like to, to show up share what you have to, to say about the topic that you’re interested in or know more about. And also have this channel be, The core strategy of building your network creating relationships, connecting with people who you haven’t had the time like to connect with unless you had the podcast and It depends on many different factors, but I think for business owners, podcasting is, and the podcast is a door opener.

It gives you the opportunity to meet with people, connect with people that might also these people be Potential [00:13:00] clients business partners, collaborators, and all of this plays a huge role in networking and you know, growing a business through networking connections and organic ways of growing a business, if that makes sense.

Yeah. So, so you basically defined what success could look like. Right. And, and, and now let’s go to, well, what makes that successful podcast, however you define success. So by that, I mean, like, you know, content flow guests are a few of these ingredients, right? So you probably have listened to many, many podcasts and.

You can tell, okay, this podcast is gonna make it, or this past podcast, I don’t know how long it’s gonna survive. Right. There’s probably some indicators that tell you, yeah, [00:14:00] this is a good show or not so. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm. . So what are those? So, to that end, I mean I feel like a successful podcast is the, a podcast that can provide for the listeners, can, can share like valuable insights and actually be, Helpful resource, resource for people so that people are listeners and the audience is coming back every week or whatever frequency applies.

But for me, a successful podcast is the one that helps me, educates me on something on a topic. I can listen with ease, like without having any audio issues or things like that. And I can also connect and like the guests, like how not the guests, sorry, the host and the guests. I, a podcast, successful podcast to, to my eyes is one that I like the host, how they [00:15:00] present the content how they connect with people, how, you know, their manners and all of that.

So yeah, for me, it’s all about. becoming a valuable, helpful resource for people so that your show, you know, has an impact on people’s either lives, businesses. Yeah. There’s, there’s essentially, there’s To two different audiences or people that are involved in the podcasting experience. I guess there’s the guests, right?

And then there’s the listeners and as a podcast host. Well, you’re creating relationships with the guests. Your stream, well, basically looking for guests to bring on to your audience and then you’re also creating relationships with your [00:16:00] listeners, which I guess in a way, yes, you’re kind of wanting them to.

Further engage with you and maybe come into your world and then go on to your gentle sales path. That’s really also part of why we’re doing this. Yes, we’re educating, we’re inspiring, but we’re doing this in a business context. And so somehow it has to do with our gentle sales path, right? So let’s talk first about the guests because.

That is something that while you need to make sure that you have guests lined up and, and so how, what are ways that podcast hosts are finding new, interesting guests that, you know, you see with your clients, what are you helping them with? Yeah. Now so here’s the thing about finding guests, there are several podcasts, websites, matching websites out [00:17:00] there that you can go in, create an account and you know, So these podcast websites connect guests with hosts, right?

So an example of this would be podcastguest. com or podmods. And this is an easy way for people who don’t have another way to do it. This is an easy way to find guests. Although with my clients, when the, the last few years, I started to incorporate a more hybrid approach. What I mean by that is because of my client, because most of my clients are business owners or you know, coaches, service providers, and this kind of profession they want to somehow link the podcast into, you know, finding clients or collaborating with people in a way that is mutually beneficial.

So that, that’s, that’s why I figured out [00:18:00] like okay, I need to find a way to. help them find guests, but not just find guests for the sake of finding a guest, bringing them, recording an episode and that’s it, but in a more intentional way. Right. And so here’s what I recommend for people who want to somehow link the podcast with the business.

You can simply create a list of potential guests that you want to have in your show, but with in mind, you would have the people that you either admire or want to work with, the people you would love to work with. And so you are reaching out to those people. That for you feed the ideal client persona that you have and you’re reaching out to those people, you’re inviting them to the show.

Most people will, are likely to say yes, because [00:19:00] it’s a conversation, you know, it’s a natural way of no, or getting to knowing to know someone or learning from them. So then when you have them on the show, either before or after the interview, or even in a follow up email that you might be sending, you can just mention a simple, gentle, genuine question like you can let them be aware of your, of the offers that you have currently, currently running your services, your website, and you can just ask, is there a new one?

And That you think I should talk to, or do you know anyone that might be interested in the XYZ service that I have and is just like asking them if they know someone else, you’re not trying to sell something to them. So the approach is actually at least in my opinion, humane, you know, gentle So this [00:20:00] way there is a double benefit to this.

You are finding guests to fill up the list of your, of the guests of your show, but you’re not just bringing you know, anyone that’s might be interested. You’re bringing actually people who you admire and you would want to work with. So if this conversation ends up like, if those people are interested.

To in working with you, they might, this might be an opportunity for them to get to know you get to know to your, you know, to your personality approach. So either they might say yes, or they might refer you to someone else. And in fact, most of my clients. Use the podcast, utilize the podcast, the power of podcasting like this.

Like most of the guests they have on the show, they send them referrals because they had a great experience. Certainly you cannot have someone on your show and [00:21:00] just have them. And then be like forget them. You need to nurture their relationship and keep engaging with them. Keep, you know, interacting with them afterwards, because we’re talking about build, building real relationships, you know?

So this is the way I recommend people you know, who are interested in linking the podcast to the business. To go about this. Like it’s an idea worth considering because I’ve seen it working with many of my clients. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great idea. And I think I, I was trying to remember when I started podcasting and don’t remember, but it’s, it’s at least eight years.

I think that I’ve been podcasting various. Podcasts, and I made the mistake of just randomly interviewing people at least in the first podcast, the, the it was called the introvert best [00:22:00] growth podcast at the same time, maybe I wouldn’t call it a mistake because it was for me. Just the networking, just the relationship building, they didn’t turn out to be clients, but they helped me create this huge network.

Now that I do feel like I, I never need to look for a podcast guests. It’s, it’s like. As a podcast host, you get so many pitches from people to be on podcasts. And probably out of a hundred, I accept one because they just really did their homework really well. But the other 99, I just don’t even reply anymore.

Because I, I do have this big network network of people that I feel like, okay, these are aligned people. Right. But I guess what I’m not doing is I’m not like thinking, Oh, could they be clients as much [00:23:00] because I, what I was thinking when you were talking is like, well, the topic of the podcast also needs to be aligned with a topic that your, would be a fit for your clients.

Right. Because for me, well, I’m bringing in. Either experts at marketing. So they’re like, well, I don’t need Sarah’s help. Right. There are experts in their own field of marketing of some kind. Or or they are an inspiration for me. And so that’s why I bring them in. So there are change makers that I look up to and they, you know, they’re probably as few steps ahead of me.

And so that’s why I bring them. And, and that’s also my reason for podcasting is really all the things I learned over the years. So yeah, but the other thing it made me think of when you shared, it was like, well, the frequency of [00:24:00] podcasting, right? When you have to, Look for for client for podcast guests per month, or some people have even 2 shows per week.

And then it’s a podcast. That’s a lot of people. Right? And then really the relationship relationship building gets quite difficult. Difficult. And that’s what happened to me when I had four guests per month. And I’m like, I can’t, like, it doesn’t feel human or humane anymore. It feels like it’s just like this factory of people.

And so that’s why I really slowed it down. And now I just have two episodes per month. And one of them is also a CoLab workshop partner. So I kind of combined that. So what, what would you say about the frequency of. Of shows. So a little bit about what you shared before. First of all, I, I totally agree all of that, that I’ve shared in terms of the strategy.

Certainly the [00:25:00] people that you’re reaching out need to be aligned with, with the podcast topic that you have. But yeah, to answer your question about the frequency. I would say that everyone is doing what their best they what it’s best for their, you know, for the sanity for that is that fits their schedule.

And definitely there is no need to be a by, you know, there’s no need doesn’t mean that if you don’t have a weekly show, you cannot be successful or you cannot achieve your goals, your specific goals. The frequency depends on, in my opinion, on your bandwidth, schedule, purpose, and you know, It’s best, what you do, it’s best to do what feels right for you, for your specific situation and for your goals.

So for example, what you shared, [00:26:00] it didn’t feel a line anymore when you had feedback. For guests and like, if you like a factory, so this doesn’t feel right. So it’s good that you made the decision to go to buy a bi weekly schedule. So, yeah, I’m totally, I totally agree with that approach for everyone that is thinking that.

Maybe people will forget about me or a bi weekly show is definitely a consistent, you know, normal paced show and schedule. Hmm. That’s good to know. So we talked about the hosts. Now let’s talk about the listeners. What would you say there? How do we engage with listeners so that we do bring them into our world and, and maybe eventually onto our gentle sales path?

Yeah. That’s a, that’s a very general question, right? Engaging with listeners. It’s a bit hard for pod, for, [00:27:00] it was a bit hard for audio podcasters specifically because a podcast apps, at least most of them don’t allow you to interact directly as we interact on social media, for example, with comments and things like that.

But. Now, thanks to video podcasting and YouTube, things got easier, but I won’t go there to interact like with ways using YouTube and social media, because that’s, that’s the normal thing. And I like to talk, you know non traditional ways of doing things. So yes, you can prompt listeners to follow your social media.

Or watch on YouTube and interact with you this way. But what I would like to share with you is an overlooked strategy, an overlooked tactic that people often, you know don’t talk about, which is a simple [00:28:00] form, written form on your website that you can have. If you’re thinking, yeah, but the form of people you need people, I need from people to go to my website, fill out the form.

Too many steps. Yes. Too many steps. But I like to have different things for people to take action on. So you can have a dedicated page on your website, for example, that might be something like yourpodcast. com slash question or slash listener And you can have a written form there for those who are interested in filling out the form and asking a question.

And we can have also something like it’s a plugin, a web plugin called the software that you can install called, for example, Speakpipe. There are several others where, listen, you install this plugin in this page under or below or above [00:29:00] the form, doesn’t matter. And people can just press record from their phone or computer and record the voice note, which is It’s powerful because if you can get people to go to this, to this page and just click record and record the question, this means like direct interaction and engagement from your listeners.

And what you also are doing with this way is you are collecting real feedback data Having the chance to feature them and give back to your audience, feature them, feature the voice notes, the voice note that they recorded on your show. So yeah this is, this is really. A strategy that we, we’ve started implementing with some of my clients and we’ve seen that it’s a bit tough to get listeners to go to this page.

Yes. [00:30:00] But if you are, if you think of this page as your main call to action on the show and Also, if you have the chance to promote this page in other places that you might be speaking people who are interested, genuinely interested in, you know, interacting with you will definitely take the time to press one button and record a voice note.

I’m laughing because I actually do have that set up on my website. And I didn’t even know the link, so I had to go look it up and it’s like this long link. So yeah, I need to create a permalink, like a shortened link for it. And I need to actually mention it on the podcast, right. It’s not enough to just sit there on the website.

But yeah have it, have it as one of the call to actions is such a good reminder because I remember like when I first installed it, I love getting those messages. It’s like. [00:31:00] Oh my God, there’s people listening. , . And it was great. But yeah, I need to, I need to implement that. So if you’re listening, watch out.

I don’t have a now because the link is way too long, but I’ll mention it on the, on the next episode. Definitely. So yeah look out for that link and, and please leave me a voice message. They make my kids. So yeah, great, great tips. So that’s one of those ways that we can engage. One of those ways.

And people, yeah, as you said, people forget, like you, you install something or you create a way and you don’t even mention it on the show. So how do, do listeners, you know, are aware of this method or of this thing that you are suggesting to, for them to do. So yeah either on the show as a call to action or.

You can even, you know, talk about it in interviews, workshops, whatever you have, because people will interact like trust [00:32:00] me, they do. They will do. Yeah, I love that. I was just thinking also and, and I don’t have that. or anything, but I’m playing with creating a chat bot for my community based on my books and my podcasts and everything.

So I train the chat bot and then becomes a resource for members of the community because they can ask questions and the bot will basically give them information, but all based on my. Right. And so I’m thinking that maybe there’s some way to use a public chat bot on the podcast as well, so that they could go back into older episodes and, you know, look up things like.

Who, you know, who talked about this in this topic, and then the bot would go back and give them the information on on that. I love [00:33:00] connecting AI in a very human serving way. You know, it’s like. Okay. Yes, it’s AI. Okay. It’s not a real human, but it helps us humans. Right. Because it, it brings us that information that we’re looking for.

So I was just, yeah, as you were talking, like, huh, I wonder if that’s a really interesting and amazing idea. I don’t know of a software that does that, like directly connected, connecting to to be connected to the podcast, but I can definitely look it up and let Yeah. But I will love that. Like it’s, it’s really helpful to know because now the burden is on the host.

For example, if you want to mention older episodes, you need to grab the link, put it in the description, mention it on, on the, on the, on that episode that you can find links or episodes mentioned in the description. Because you need to let people know, right? [00:34:00] Otherwise, how do they know? So, yeah, I love this idea because it literally, it’s, it’s really helpful.

Yeah. Two tools that I’m using or that I’m experimenting with are one is called right sonic, and it came out with the first. Chatbots and and the other one is called creator. io. So I’m looking at those and then what you mentioned to find the links, you know, to other episodes, I’m using chat GPT for that already, but you have to have the paid version for that because otherwise it doesn’t provide you with links and that’s the whole point, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the whole point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. What about, since we’re talking about, okay, we’re talking about AI, but we’re mainly talking about humans, so what about stats? Do I need to worry about stats? How often should I be looking at numbers or should I just forget about them?

People, people [00:35:00] love looking at numbers, right? We love looking at numbers. I don’t. Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s, that’s great because I don’t either, but most people some people, not most, but some people get a little bit, you know obsessed with numbers because they do want to download, they do want the listeners, but especially in the beginning, I recommend not looking at numbers at all, because they will create more stress and overwhelm than be helpful, you know?

So, certainly statistics and, and, you know, analytics are great for People who have been podcasting for a while have an established audience and they want to know where do they people, where do these people are tuning in? Like how off, how long do they listen to? Is there a point that they left off?

Should I [00:36:00] you know, do something for, to make the come back and come back and things like that. But this goes Once you have an established podcast, an established audience, and you know what you’re doing, you can definitely have a look, for example, once a month and either do it yourself, or if you have a manager or someone else that is helping you have a meeting and, or with yourself and, you know think of the numbers and things, think how you can refine things that you’re doing in the podcast.

To help increase those numbers and make them go up. But yeah, I yeah. This is my simple opinion on that. Yeah, thank you. I, yeah, I’m, I don’t remember when I last looked at them, but it’s, oh, I do remember. Actually, it was when I changed from four podcasts to two podcasts, because I, I did a [00:37:00] test and said, okay, I’m going to do, you know, six months of that and then see where the numbers are.

And the numbers didn’t change. Yeah. So I had, that’s amazing. I had less. And the numbers stayed the same. So I was like, well, okay. They didn’t increase obviously, but the people still. And you know, so yeah, to me it was like, okay. But then. Maybe the last point I want to address, because one of my favorite podcast hosts and a past business coach, Jenny Blake, she has two podcasts.

One is called Free Time and the other one is called Pivot. And she just announced that she’s going to stop both podcasts and take the pause and she’s been podcasting also for a very long time. And so, the question, I guess, is like, well, And I think she [00:38:00] was, like, really going all in. And she said it like that.

She was going all in and probably hoping to have sponsorship and make it the, you know, her business, basically. And so that’s a complete different strategy. Right? It is if we compare, podcasts with the, you know Rogan, what’s his name? Yeah. Sorry. I forgot it. Joe. Joe Rogan. No. Yeah. I think so.

Sorry. Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan. Yeah. Is it Joe Rogan? Yeah. So if you compare with those big guys, then obviously, You know, we, yeah, it’s not even worth getting started. Let’s just say, so it really depends. I guess we’re coming back to this definition of success. How, how do you define success? Do you want to make money on this podcast?

Well, that’s a different ball game, right? If the, the podcast itself, [00:39:00] and I’m not talking getting clients, but the podcast itself, if you want to hit sponsorship. Completely different ballgame, so that’s not what we’re talking about here but it’s important to be realistic about this goal. And that’s also one of the reasons why I reduced to two episodes, and then in a way I almost reduced it even further down because now One of the episodes is also a collab partnership that I do for the workshop.

So it’s kind of like two in one. And so I really just reduced the time commitment for my podcast because, you know, it’s like, that’s what you do. It’s like, well, you, you either invest time. Or money or money. Yeah. And then you see what comes back. So yeah, do you have those kind of conversations as well?

Clients to really make sure that their expectations [00:40:00] are aligned with what what it is. they can get out of this podcast. Definitely do. And those conversations usually come up from people who have been podcasting for a while, for a while that now they want to, you know, have sponsors and make a little money over all of the podcast, which is definitely but there are a lot of factors, like it’s a whole nother conversation, talk about sponsorships and how you can get sponsors or even getting on a network.

There are different ways that you can make money over the podcast, but I wouldn’t say that a podcast can like sustain you can bring you, you know, a sustainable amount of money each month to, you To be actually sustainable to become a business or at least I, I haven’t, like, I haven’t worked with those big guys who, who are making money, like even just with an episode, but yeah.

[00:41:00] So That is the reason I recommend going more and focusing more on the building relationships aspect and even getting clients rather than, you know, focusing on sponsorships, ads, and ads, yeah, definitely ads is, ads are helpful. I, I recommend. People to have like more of a self promoted ad self, you know ads about your offerings, promotions, or collaborations with someone.

But yeah, I wouldn’t recommend someone to start the podcast if the, the ultimate goal is to make money off of it or, or make it a business because it’s not impossible, but it’s, it’s really tough and it takes a lot of time to get there. Yeah, thanks for thanks for being real. I think that’s yeah, really important here.

As [00:42:00] we’re wrapping up 2 more questions. Where do you see the future of podcasting? And then I’ll ask you the last question, but let’s go there 1st. The future of podcasting. So that’s really interesting. I feel like podcasting is going all in, in the video aspect. So I feel like many audio podcasts and audio shows will be You know, we’ll switch to video first shows because of the recent changes of Google podcast shutting down and YouTube taking over.

And it makes sense like for audio shows to become video first shows. So I feel like the interaction part and the engagement part will become more. Will become easier if we’re thinking that more and more shows are becoming video shows. So, you know, [00:43:00] the, the, these difficulty that has been. So far to connect and interact with listeners will be easier, I guess.

And yeah I think that more and more shows will also be able to make money off of the podcast or to, you know, To achieve their objectives, whatever they are because the features and because of the expansion, you know, of, of podcasting features and YouTube is investing so much into podcasting.

So I think the industry will be will grow like, Has been growing rapidly, but the, the growth will continue to surprise us with the power of podcasting. Nice. I’m glad I’m I made that switch and I’m posting everything on YouTube as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:44:00] definitely. Well, this has been really, really great.

Thanks so much for, for being here and answering the questions that y’all had about podcasting. Podcasting. I always ask one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Krista? Oh, that’s a wonderful question. So I’m grateful for it’s not related to the business. I’m grateful for having my business and for all of my clients that I adore, but I’m most grateful for becoming a mom and, you know, getting to know baby that I just love so much and grateful for having a family, you know?

So yeah. Wonderful. This is what I’m grateful for. Yeah. Is he sleeping right now? Is the baby sleeping right now? No, no, no. The baby is, is out for a walk with his dad. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much [00:45:00] for, for being here, Krista. It’s been a pleasure. so much for having me. It’s been really great, great to talk to, talk with you and talk about a little about podcasting.

I hope listeners find it helpful. And yeah, it’s been great. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. And I, I will mention all the links where people can find you in the intro and the outro. Yeah. Thanks so much. Bye. Bye.

Ep 188 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and can apply it to your own business. Of course, especially if you’re thinking about starting a podcast. I don’t know if I really underlined it as much as I wanted to. Is that for me, my podcasts, because I did at least three really helped me not just with authority, but creating these deeper relationships with [00:46:00] people that before I just didn’t have any way to connect with.

So I’m super, super grateful for, for the podcast and still enjoy it. In order to find out more about Krissa and her work, you can go to krissastow. com. And if you’re looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle, which Krissa is also a member of. Right now, we’re starting to plan our next community event, the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, an event by members, for members, and the public.

And the topic this year is business with heart, putting humans first, we can’t wait to invite you to a week full of our members, events, workshops, roundtables, and lots of moments to discuss and connect. And if you’d like to be part of it from the inside as a member, well, Now is the right time to join us.

We’d love to have you. [00:47:00] Besides this event, we also meet at least twice per month. Once for a meetup around the business topic and once for a workshop with an aligned speaker. If you haven’t found your community yet. Well, consider joining us if it feels aligned. It’s much more than marketing. It’s really humane business altogether, business for humans. More details at humanemarketing. com forward slash community. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 8. And on this beautiful page, you’ll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course. As well as my two books, Marketing Like We’re Human and Selling Like We’re Human.

Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the [00:48:00] planet, because we are change makers before we are marketers.

So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps

To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page

To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We’re Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas.

We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality.

Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation.

What we addressed in this conversation:

• How Naully got interested and started with AI
• The ethical and legal considerations of AI
• How AI enables us to work smarter not harder
• Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end)
• How Naully sees the future of AI and work
• and much more...

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Ep 187 whole episode

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book.

I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome.

You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page.

And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T.

engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology.

So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations.

Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it.

Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va?

Naully: I'm fine, and you?

Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we?

Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful.

Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that.

But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st.

And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age?

Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet.

So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI.

And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now.

Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it?

I

Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right?

Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So,

Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go.

And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now.

In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing.

So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business?

Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never.

Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have.

And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow.

For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R.

Sarah: mm-hmm .

Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair.

Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there

Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools.

Sarah: It

Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools.

Or this is the user, [00:13:00]

Sarah: right?

Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer,

Sarah: right?

Naully: So,

Sarah: so the

Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction.

And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what?

Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework.

In the use of AI,

Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened

Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not.

In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still.

Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm.

So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well,

Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world.

It's the world of justice.

Sarah: I think

Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal.

So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So,

Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI.

But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle.

And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder?

Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because.

Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that.

AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months.

And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it.

And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas.

Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you.

And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell.

Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together?

But

Naully: tell us more

Sarah: about it.

Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly.

And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project.

So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say.

Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted.

Sarah: So,

Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted.

Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2.

For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI.

So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way.

So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information.

Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right?

To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now.

So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development?

Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology.

[00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year.

Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path.

It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides.

Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app.

So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings.

Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it.

And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast.

So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that.

Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang.

Sarah: Mm.

Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two.

Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia.

Sarah: Right.

Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so.

Sarah: A little mix. A little mix.

Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy.

Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So,

Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans.

Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there.

Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm.

Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different,

Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working.

Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane.

In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So,

Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or

Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't.

Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not.

So, yeah,

Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli.

I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27.

Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7.

And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Welcome to another episode of the Humane Marketing podcast. In this episode, we delve into the realm of humane video with Lou Bortone, exploring how video content can be a powerful tool for authentic connection and trust-building in today's business world. 

Join us as we uncover the core principles of creating videos that resonate on a deeply human level, discover the importance of authenticity in fostering a loyal audience, explore cutting-edge AI tools for video creation, and gain valuable insights into future trends and actionable tips tailored specifically for solopreneurs. 

Get ready to be inspired and equipped to use video as a means to stand out authentically and thrive in your business endeavors.

In this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points:

• How Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection
• The core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level
• How authenticity builds trust and a loyal audience
• Tools for video creation, including AI
• Future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs
• and much more...

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Transcript 186

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book.

I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years. business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

Hello friends, welcome back to another episode at the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And I'm talking to a long time online friend, Lou Bortone. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version [00:03:00] of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, the number one and the word page. And also just a reminder for my non native English speakers, humane is with an E at the end.

So it's not human, it's humane. So humane with an E dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. All right, let me tell you a little bit about Lou and from his bio, you will kind of immediately kind of grasp his sense of humor.

If Don Vito Corleone, Marty Scorsese and Jerry Seinfeld got together to make an AI baby, you might end up with Lou Bortone. Lu is known as the Video Godfather and is conciliare to some of the brightest names in digital marketing. [00:04:00] He's a video marketing expert, an author, speaker, and host of the Godfather podcast.

Prior to becoming a video printer, Lu spent more than 20 years in the television business before being run out of. Hollywood. Lou is also a father to twins, a rescuer of pugs, and an expert at Italian curses. I'll always remember meeting Lou in real life back in, I think it was 2017, when he picked me up in a Red Beetle or something.

Like that at this tiny train station in Camucho Cortona and, and that's in Tuscany and then drove us up the hill. And I could tell he had no experience with stick driving to our retreat house for the week. And these in person meetings are really just so special in this online world, aren't they? So that's why I went back to Lou for this episode [00:05:00] around video.

So in this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points, how Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection, the core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level, how authenticity builds trust. And a loyal audience, tools for video creation, including AI tools, future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs to get started or to get better with video and so much more.

So let's dive into this conversation with Lou Bortone. Hey Lou, so glad to see you again and get a chance to talk shop with you about video. And of course, in the off recording, we talked about Sicily because we have a common love for everything Italy, right?

Lou Bortone: Exactly. Yeah. And you're one of the [00:06:00] online folks that I've actually met in real life.

So that's right.

Sarah: Yeah. Which is always, you know, it's such an exception. And so it's yeah. Something special. I, I was part of your, what do you call it? Mastermind

Lou Bortone: or Tuscany and yeah, and we had the few years of the little interruption of the pandemic and all that, but hopefully that's all behind us.

Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. That was amazing. Loved it. Cool. So I have you today to talk about video and we were just, Discussing, well, maybe we're going to call it video like we're human or YouTube, like we're human or something like that. And then you share it that you just kind of focus a lot on the trust and authenticity.

And so we'll definitely get into that. So really looking forward to it. Why don't you start by sharing how you got. Into video how you you know, you're calling yourself the godfather of video, tell

Lou Bortone: us Yeah. [00:07:00] The long and circuitous route too. And you know, it's funny 'cause I think people call me that because they know of my love of Italy and Sicily and the Godfather, but all really, because I've been doing it for a really long time.

So I was in the television business for many years in Los Angeles and I think it was probably around. 2000 on 1998 that I really got online and started to do things online. And when our twins were born, we decided, well, let's leave, you know, Hollywood and La La Land and go some, go back to family and in Boston.

And that's kind of when I started doing the online video stuff which was fun because the way I discovered YouTube is that I was helping some people. Do a sketch comedy show for like a local cable access. And we started to put the videos on YouTube and really get a lot of attention there. We realized, Oh, this, you know, we were kind of onto something.

So I was on from a very early, you know, back in 2005 when YouTube started and I've been doing online video ever since. And I love it because [00:08:00] I'm an introvert and I don't have to be in person necessarily with people. And even though I don't love being on camera for me, it's a lot easier than in person networking.

And I just love the fact that we can do this and sort of have our own TV station, our own podcast. I mean, 10, 20 years ago, this would have been impossible. So

Sarah: yeah, that's how I got here. That's insane. It's like mind blowing that, you know, 2005, that it really seems like ages and ages, but that's

Lou Bortone: when it came out.

So I guess that's what, 18 years. Oh my gosh. I feel so old.

Sarah: It really is a long time ago and of course, you know, it went through phases of ups and downs and, and it seems like right now it really is kind of like coming back and, and I want to know from you, why do you think that it has this comeback now?

What,

Lou Bortone: what, what? It's interesting. And it's the same with, you know, remember podcasting sort of cooled off [00:09:00] for a while and now it's harder than ever. I think part of it is that You know, when, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, you know, there were just a few TV stations and a few options. And now with YouTube and podcasts and streaming, you know, we've got access to, to the, to basically a worldwide audience every time we turn on our computer or our PC.

Put our phone on. So I think that's part of it. It's just the accessibility and also the fact that folks who maybe are a little younger than us grew up with. They never didn't. You know, they always had Internet. They always had you do. They always had streaming and all this kind of stuff. So for them.

A screen is a screen is a screen, they don't care if it's TV, they don't care if it's you know, cable, they don't care if it's YouTube, you know, whatever they're watching, they can watch anything, anytime, and that's why, you know, another crazy statistic is that YouTube has more viewers than all the U. S.

TV networks, all the cable networks, all the streaming services, so when you think of TV, you don't usually think of YouTube, but [00:10:00] YouTube is TV, and TV is YouTube.

Sarah: I mean, if we think of our kids, right, that's, that's all they're watching. They're not watching TV. It's

Lou Bortone: definitely the YouTube. Multi screens.

You know, they're, they're watching YouTube on a, on a traditional television screen, but they're on Twitter or X at the same time with their friends. And I don't know how they do it. I can barely manage one screen. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. I also feel that. You know, we were also kind of part of the blogging era.

And, and so I feel like, you know, Google has changed their algorithm again. And people are like, well, people don't really read blogs anymore. And we can't get any traction with SEO. Now that the market is getting flooded with all the AI content. So maybe it's also, do you think it's also because of that?

People are like, well, at least that. That's what it was for me. I'm like, I got to pay attention to

Lou Bortone: YouTube. Absolutely. And then the other thing with business owners, I mean, you know, we always read video is the way to [00:11:00] get the most amount of information in the shortest amount of time. So if we're all multitasking, we're all really over scheduled, we're all really busy.

Oftentimes it's like, I can't sit down and read a newspaper. But what's that? You know, it's, I have to, you know, go to YouTube and find this quick answer. I have to go to see this thing on Tik TOK or, you know, so it's really just a great way to get access to any information anywhere in the world.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

It's, it's, it's, I love it, especially when it's timestamped. So it's like, Oh, I don't even have to watch the whole thing. It's just like, yeah, exactly. So, so yeah.

Lou Bortone: So I think now the thing is that. The, the consumer, the viewer, it has more control than ever. Cause like I said, when we were at least in the U S when we were growing up, it's like you had three TV networks and, and they controlled everything.

They controlled what you saw, what you heard. And now it's kind of like, well, the consumer can go anywhere they want and see anything they want. So they're completely in control now.

Sarah: So that kind [00:12:00] of probably if someone has never done any video kind of sounds also intimidating because it's like, wow, like there's this giant audience out there.

Okay. You already mentioned as an introvert, sometimes YouTube is actually probably easier than the networking thing, but maybe it also feels like, well. What am I going to share that hasn't already been said out there? Yeah. So what would you say to that

Lou Bortone: question? I think, you know, everybody has their unique spin and everybody has their own, you know Perspective.

So it's like you have something to offer. A lot of times if I'm working with my clients or students, they feel like, well, you know, like you said, well, you know, what can I say that hasn't already been said? And I tell them, look, you know, you have a message. You have a unique message. You have a unique way of doing things and your Passion to get that message out to the world has to be stronger than your fear of being on camera.

Because again, you know, the other thing too is now that we're all able to be on camera, we're not walking the red carpet at the Oscars. We're just putting on a podcast or a YouTube channel [00:13:00] and showing up and trying to be authentic.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about this trust building and authenticity, like what are some key points here that maybe a story I can tell is like, I remember when I put up my first video and I just seen them all because I cleaned up my YouTube channel and I'm like, Oh my God, this is terrible.

But I remember like really sweating it like, Oh my God, I have to prepare everything. Yeah. So. Like, do we really need to have this perfect video or how much of it can we just wing and really be just human and

Lou Bortone: authentic? I think you can wing 80 percent of it, probably. I mean, I often make the distinction between quick videos and keeper videos.

It's like, okay, a keeper video, your homepage video on your website, you know, you want to, you don't want to be in your pajamas, probably. If it's an important video that's going to have shelf life, like your homepage [00:14:00] video, or if you're selling, you know, a thousand dollar coaching program, you don't, you know, you want to look professional.

So those keeper videos, you probably want to spend more time and effort on, but if it's, you know, quick tips, I mean, oftentimes I just think of something and then just go to YouTube and share it. So quick tips or Facebook lives or any kind of live video, it's really more about, you know, just showing up.

And sharing your message and being authentic. And a lot of times people think video is about the technology. And what I try to sort of, you know, reshape that or respin it as, no, it's really about connection and relationships and engagement. It doesn't matter what technology we're using. It just matters that we're connecting and being authentic and sharing ourselves.

Hmm.

Sarah: I remember we, we did the workshop together or something about video for introverts back in the days. And, and I remember we did kind of have one module on, on on technology. And I'm thinking maybe that actually lost [00:15:00] a bit of importance now that. You know, we're so used to these shorts on YouTube and even famous people just kind of like filming themselves.

You think it has changed maybe also over time? Yeah. And

Lou Bortone: I think that the pandemics accelerated it really quickly because, you know, and basically in, you know, a day we all had to move to zoom and we had to move our events to zoom and we had to move everything online. So I think that just accelerated it.

And, you know, it was almost like. You know, well, I don't have a choice. I have to be on camera because that's the only way I can connect with my audience right now, right? Yeah. And I think the other thing was now people realize, Oh, this is, you know, this isn't that scary. And this isn't that difficult technically.

And we always hear about no like and trust. And I think people finally realized like, wow, this is a great way to build no like and trust.

Sarah: Yeah, it's so true. I'm always surprised that people are watching whole episodes, you know, that I put [00:16:00] on the podcast as well, but no, people actually watched the YouTube version of it as well.

And probably it's because that know, like, and trust, right?

Lou Bortone: Yeah, definitely. The connection, the ability to watch it on the go, cause people are watching on their phones. And I did, you know, I've, I've done podcasting. Off and on, but the reason that I finally committed to doing a podcast was I saw a statistic that YouTube was now the number one source for podcasts, more than Apple, more than Google, more than Amazon people are going to YouTube for podcasts and whether that's just.

Kind of listening to it when, you know, with a slide on the screen or having an actual interview or seeing the person on screen, either way there, it's become, you know, kind of the go to place to see and hear podcasts.

Sarah: Yeah, that's interesting. I did see a difference between just having that slide and the moving, you know, lines which I did before.

So I didn't have the video portion of [00:17:00] it. And now with, with the actual faces, like there is more engagement or there is more views because yeah, obviously it's more interesting to, to see two people talking than just a line. Yeah.

Lou Bortone: Yeah. And that's the other thing that's been interesting too is now with all the AI stuff.

It's like, I think there's going to be not really a backlash with AI, but more of a need for like, okay, I don't want to see a robotic, you know, synthesized video. I mean, yeah, I can create an AI version of myself. It's like, hi, I'm Lou, you know, and recreate my voice, but it's still not you, you know, it's still not the real person.

Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really feel like that's why I like the really human and authentic videos the best, where you see some people, you know, they have like this fancy background and their logo is up there and their book is up there. I'm like, I get that from a marketing perspective, but. [00:18:00] It doesn't feel real. It feels like if I would see you on the street, I probably wouldn't recognize you because you're wearing so much makeup and I don't, yeah, I don't really recognize you.

So for me, it's really that real humanness that comes across. Yeah,

Lou Bortone: and that's why I like, you know, I don't do as much live video as I should, but I kind of call it like, oh, a live video is to come as you are party, you know, just show up and, and, you know, be yourself and don't worry that the dogs are barking in the background because that's the way it works, you know, like it's, there's going to be distractions, there's going to be craziness going on in the background, but that just makes it more real.

Sarah: Talking about that. I just watched, remember that BBC interview where the walks in and then the baby rolls in and I just watched that

Lou Bortone: again. Sometimes those are viral moments. Like, you know, the wife's son doing, trying to do a professional interview and the guy walks by. [00:19:00] You know, husband walks behind her in his boxer shorts, you know, it's like, we're trying to do video here, people.

Sarah: And what, what I didn't remember is that that was in 2017. So way pre COVID. So that's why it was like super shocking. You know, back then we were all still like, Ooh, you know, has to be super professional. So I feel like a lot has changed since the pandemic. Yeah. And again,

Lou Bortone: You have to find that balance because like I kid like you don't want to look like a hostage video.

I mean, you don't want to have really terrible lighting and yeah, that it may be authentic, but it's still not easy to watch like if the lighting is really bad or if the audio is bad. So you have to find that balance between like, look, I have to, you know, look relatively professional, but I don't have to be so polished that I'm on doing an interview on CNN or something.

Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's true. It's that balance that you're still human and creating trust. But without looking [00:20:00] like, yeah, you're just going on CNN. So we talked a little bit about AI what I just recently started using is this Tool called Clip, Opus Clip or something. Oh yeah. Yes. Opus Clip.

And it lets you create these little shorts from longer videos. Right. And, and I love that because it's repurposing existing content. And so, yeah, do you know any other great AI tools

Lou Bortone: that people are using? I did a series on some AI tools and Opus Clip was one of them, which is great because if you're going to create content.

You might as well get as much mileage out of it as possible. So if you're doing a podcast and you wanted to do clips from the podcast, or you want to do 60 second segments, Opus clip is great for that. Pictory. ai is really good because you can, you know, make your videos more professional and edit them and add, you know, B roll and background footage.

And the one that I use probably every single day is descript. com. And the reason [00:21:00] I like that is because for people who are not You know, video editors, you can edit the text and all those changes are made, you know, you're basically editing a Word document and then the changes transfer the video. So I've been using that for pod, you know, to produce podcasts and really every kind of video because it's, it's really faster and you can look more professional and more quickly.

Yeah,

Sarah: and I love the fact that you just highlight all the ums and take them

Lou Bortone: all out. Yeah, I had no idea how many times I used the words and until I found a descriptor like, oh, I can take out all the filler words with one click. And suddenly I sound smarter than I am. And I don't think that damages any of the authenticity or makes it any less real.

It's just that like, oh, this is, it's going to be a little bit easier to look more professional without having to go through all kinds of crazy editing and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, that's true. It doesn't feel like all of a sudden you sound like a robot. You just. I feel like, yeah, you sound [00:22:00] smarter because you're not constantly looking for words or, or, yeah, saying

Lou Bortone: them that.

And some of it's getting like, it's a little bit weird because there's a feature in Descript where if I'm looking at the screen, it will put your eyes back up to where the camera is. Oh, I haven't

Sarah: seen that.

Lou Bortone: Ooh, that's kind of, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's a little creepy, but it works pretty well.

But again, it's about striking that balance. Like I could do videos where I say, you know, you sort of insert the name, like you do one video, hello. So, you know, it's like, well, obviously that's, you know automated. So you don't want to do so much automation that it's not, you know real anymore.

Sarah: Right.

Yeah. I guess that's a question that you get often is like, well, where should your eyes be when you're doing either self recorded videos or chats like this one? For example, me right now, I'm looking at the camera. I'm not looking at you, which I always feel like, oh, what a

Lou Bortone: shame. You got [00:23:00] to sort of train your eyes.

I'm like, Oh, you know, my mom said you have to look people in the eye. Exactly. Great, but the camera, the camera's eye is up here, so I cheat because I have like a little extra monitor up where the camera is, but if I was looking at the screen, it would be, it would feel like I wasn't connecting with you and I wasn't being as authentic because I'm not, you want to try to, the camera is the the other person's eyes.

So that's the tricky part.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. What I do is this, because I'm recording on zoom, so I just make the screen of zoom very small and just shove it right under the camera.

Lou Bortone: I know. So those kind of tricks of just, you know, try to look at the camera try to have, you know, adequate lighting But again, it's, you know, it doesn't take much.

I, I, I like to have a setup where I can just say, okay, my camera is set up, my background's okay, my lights work, and I want to just be able to go. I don't want to have to spend 20 minutes setting up a video every time I do a video.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It becomes kind of like a nuisance if you're, it feels like, Oh, [00:24:00] I have to do all this setting up.

What about what about in terms of the, the body placement? Because one thing I noticed is when I put the things on Tik TOK compared to everybody else, my face was like, Oh God, this is like, this is no

Lou Bortone: good. Consider where the person's watching from, and a lot of people are watching on their phone, especially if it's a vertical video.

So oftentimes if I'm doing a webinar and I'm sharing slides that are landscape, I realized, well, I can't put this on TikTok or Instagram Reels because it's going to squish it. But like, again, using software like Descript, we can take a video like this and put, you know, the people, Vertically so that it still works.

So what I do see a lot, and it's funny cause I did another video about this, is it just, people don't have a very good sense of the spatial awareness. Like there'll be way down here, like, hello. And the trick that I, I heard that works is that, you know, think in terms of like, you don't want any more headroom than you [00:25:00] could fit a golf ball on the top of your head.

So. You know, you don't want to be too close. You don't want to be too, too far away.

Sarah: So what about here? Like

Lou Bortone: it's kind of like, I think, you know, we were used to seeing that from news anchors and TV. It's usually like, you know, the, the typical shot is head and shoulders kind of shot, but again you know, if there are people doing videos who are yoga instructors or something like that, they got to go way back and be No, I think it's really just a matter of being aware of where you are in the camera.

Oftentimes we'll see on zoom maybe somebody's on a laptop and they're looking up and you're looking up their nose. It's like, that's no fun. You know, just try to. Have a straight on you know, and use the photography rule of thirds where your eyes should be on the top third of the line. And if you've got graphics, those should be on the lower third, which is why they call lower thirds.

So it's just having a sort of a spatial awareness of where you are, what's going on on screen.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. [00:26:00] Yeah. I think a lot of it also comes back to confidence and just doing it a few times and not caring if it doesn't look good and just keep doing

Lou Bortone: it, right? Yeah. So it's funny when we do, like we did the video for introverts thing a few years ago, but when we do when I do these challenges, I say, you know I do my first video in the car after I just came from the gym.

So it's like, okay, this is the worst I'm going to look. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to set the bar really low so it can only get better. And you know, I'm in the car, the lighting's bad, I'm sweaty, but okay, I'm going to start there and then work my way towards better videos as I go.

Sarah: Right. Yeah, that's a, that's a good way of putting it.

And I remember those videos after kickboxing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I would bear that, but yeah. .

Lou Bortone: Well, and I think, you know women have a harder time because of the expectations. Like, oh, you know, my hair has to look good and I have to be wearing. Right, whatever. But I think people are less concerned [00:27:00] about that now than they used to be.

Sarah: I think so too. And it's so refreshing.

Lou Bortone: Yeah. Cause we just show up on zoom and it's like, look, you know I just came back from the gym or I'm, you know, I've been doing this, that so it's really more about, you really have to. Focus on the message and not so much the quality is important, but it's, it's less important than, than your message and you, and what you're

Sarah: delivering.

You know what that makes me think of is it's funny that we haven't kind of changed our headshots yet to being more human because sometimes you go on somebody's website and it's this beautiful girl. Like. Once in a lifetime that they look like that. And then you see their YouTube videos and you're like, Oh, they're actually human,

Lou Bortone: right?

And I, I did have photos when we were in Italy. I'm like, Oh, I want to have my pictures with really old buildings in the background and things like that. And then when people show up, they're like, Oh, you don't look like you look on, on [00:28:00] screen. So I used to do a really silly trick. Okay. Back in the Photoshop days is I would make my image actually a little wider so that I'd look heavier.

And then when I showed up in person, people would say, Oh, you have you lost weight? So I was doing that reverse Photoshop, like, well, I want to look better in person. So I'm going to, but again, it's, it's, it is all about that authenticity and connection. And I talk about building loyalty through video, because again, it's really more about A relationship than about what camera you're using.

Sarah: Yeah, it really feels like it's. I explained it in levels of intimacy, right? And so people sign up to your newsletter that they get your emails. That's the kind of the low level or before that it's even social media. Right. And then there's a higher level is newsletter and even higher letter that level Dell will be YouTube or, you know, any kind of video.

And then probably [00:29:00] zoom calls where it's like in person zoom calls and then the actual in person meeting. But yeah. I do feel already, you know, we're seeing each other's facial expressions and that, yeah, that creates trust and loyalty. I

Lou Bortone: totally agree. Yeah. And again, you know, even though, thank goodness we're past the pandemic and live events are coming back and conferences are back, there's still going to be that hybrid events, people working from home much more than they used to.

I mean, my kids who are 25 they have never worked in an office. Everything they've done is, is on screen, on zoom, on Google meet, whatever it is. That's just the way they work now. Yeah,

Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, it's crazy. Yeah, it really is. So let us talk a little bit to wrap up around the future. So we mentioned AI, we mentioned that, you know, Google is not really easy anymore to have your [00:30:00] blog posts featured.

So what is, what do you see the future of video? How do you see it?

Lou Bortone: I think it's, you know, obviously there's going to be a lot more volume because people are going to continue to flock to YouTube and watch YouTube shorts. I think we're going to see, you know, shorter bursts of videos, like. TikTok and Instagram reels are going to continue and it's a little harder to make the connection there because you're on for a shorter amount of time.

But I think we're going to see the shorter videos, promoting podcasts and longer content where you really can connect because again, you're obviously going to make a better connection with somebody if you're seeing or hearing them for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, rather than. Forty five seconds and i think the other thing is that there may be a little bit of a not really a backlash but sort of an anti AI thing like okay i've seen the robotic you know synthetic version of blue but where's the real you know i'm gonna show up on facebook live and not be perfect but be real so i think you'll start [00:31:00] to see a little bit more of you know as much as we're going to be using AI that's still not going to you know literally replace the person and their message.

Sarah: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I'm, I'm all for AI, but exactly. It's still, in a way it makes the videos that we're doing even more special and more human. So, so maybe that's also a good.

Lou Bortone: Yeah. So, yeah, because that's the, you know, it's almost like if you send out an email blast, it's not very personal. If you send out an, an AI video, it's great, but it's not.

You know, it's personal or familiar or engaging. And even now that chat GPT is, is starting to put in I think it's called Sora where you can put in a prompt and chat GPT will create a video from nothing, which is great, but it's still not. You, I don't think so. What

Sarah: does it do? It creates an avatar of you or just,

Lou Bortone: you know, if you say create a video about a trip [00:32:00] to, to Boston mass, it's going to pull in footage from Boston and scenes and sites.

And I think, you know, eventually if you record yourself, it'll be able to do sort of a facsimile of you, but it's still not going to be the real you. So, yeah,

Sarah: some interesting, interesting things coming our way. That's for sure.

Lou Bortone: Yeah, it's crazy. So I think there's still gonna be a place, a really important place for those videos.

If I do a lot of video email, I just sort of, you know, rather than sending email, I do a video on loom and, and share something. And I think again, that's more personal. Yeah, it takes a little bit more time, but I think it also has a lot more impact because you feel like, oh, wow, this person's actually talking to me.

It's not going to 1000 people. Yeah, I love

Sarah: that. Yeah. I love those videos. I remember them from, from the, the trip in Tuscany. One thing we didn't talk about so much, and maybe it's something that we don't need to worry about is the whole algorithm thing, because obviously we're replacing the [00:33:00] Google algorithm by a YouTube algorithm.

So how much are you paying attention and telling your clients to pay attention to the algorithm and making sure it gets, you know, right? Yeah,

Lou Bortone: I mean, as long as I've, I've been on YouTube since the very beginning, and it's constantly changing and it's hard to keep up with. And I actually work with a YouTube coach just to try to stay on top of it.

Can, and he keeps telling me the same thing and I've heard it over and over. And I think it's the best idea is make videos for humans, not algorithm. Don't try to game the system. Don't do keyword stuffing. I mean, I, I was talking to him about keywords and tags and he's like, just don't worry about it. It doesn't even matter anymore.

Just make, you know, know who your audience is and, and try to connect with them and give them what they expect from you, what they want from you. And don't say, oh, you know, I'm going to make a knitting video because knitting is really hot. This is like, well, that's not what I do. So, so don't try to gain the system because you're not going to figure it [00:34:00] out and just make videos for an audience and for a person rather than for an algorithm.

Man,

Sarah: that's really refreshing because it feels like we're trying to figure out the algorithm and by the time you figured it out, it changed again,

Lou Bortone: right? I know it's like I used to have coaches are like, okay, your title has to be 69 characters and your description has to be this and you know, it's still important to optimize your video the best you can, but at the end of the day, you know, spend more time making the video than trying to, you know, figure out just the exact keyword to include.

Yeah.

Sarah: Wow, I'm glad I asked you that early

Lou Bortone: relief. It's like save, save you a lot of trouble in, in SEO research. And it's not completely, you know, it's not that important anymore. It's still counts for something, but like my YouTube coach is like, don't worry about the keywords for the tags and keywords, just put in different spellings of your name.

So if somebody spells your name wrong, they'll still find you like, okay. [00:35:00] So so it's, you know, and, and the other thing is that with YouTube. It's shifted so much. I mean, maybe keywords were 80 percent of the people finding your video and now it's like 10%. So, and I even look at my analytics and I say, Oh, you know, only a few of these viewers came from search.

The vast majority of them came from suggested videos of people finding the video because they, you know, they're seeking you out and they know, Oh yeah, I need video advice or I need to know how to do such and such. Okay.

Sarah: Interesting. Yeah. So it just keeps, keeps on changing. So as long as you put your videos out there, you're,

Lou Bortone: you're doing something right.

Consistency is really, really important. I mean, YouTube likes consistency and YouTube likes watch time. So people always say, well, should I be doing video shorts or longer videos? And really a combination is best because you're sort of getting the best of both worlds. But YouTube, you know, the algorithm still does reward watch time.

So if people start a video with you and then stick with it, [00:36:00] YouTube loves that because you're on the channel longer. So that's why I think podcasts are doing so well on YouTube because tend to stick with the, you know, the whole podcast rather than just watch two minutes of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: That's good to know.

Well Last question. What would you say people who are just starting out and they're kind of, and maybe they're introverts, what's the first video that they should do?

Lou Bortone: I think that the lowest hanging fruit is live video, Facebook Live, YouTube Live. I mean, you can go on and do a video. Maybe you just do it into a Facebook group.

But I think live videos have a little bit less of an expectation of perfection. So you can show up, you can make a few mistakes. You can. Do your ums and ahs, whatever, and people are not going to be that concerned about it. So I think practicing with live video is a really good way to get your feet wet and sort of get, you know, ease your way into videos.

And then after you've done a bunch of those and you realize like, Oh my God, I didn't die on [00:37:00] video. Then you can say, now I'm going to go record a video for my homepage and maybe I'll make that more professional.

Sarah: That's, that's cool. And so in live video, does that mean that people can actually come on live?

Right?

Lou Bortone: Yeah. And you know, with like Facebook live, again, you can, you can say, I'm only going to go live to my private group. So maybe you feel a little bit safer starting there because you know, the folks in your group. Right. Oftentimes I'll do a video and then on the Facebook setting, I'll do only me.

So like, okay, it's, it's live, but it's not, nobody's seeing it. And then maybe later on, I'll say, okay, that, that wasn't so bad. I'm going to change that view to public. So even though you recorded it ahead of time, you didn't make it live until afterwards. Yeah.

Sarah: Love that. Very good. Well, thanks so much for sharing all your godfatherly knowledge.

Thank you. It's been great. Tell people please where they can find you and, and I know you have a, a free tool for us as well.

Lou Bortone: Everything's at [00:38:00] loubortone. com. And I also like people sometimes have trouble planning their video, what they're going to say. So I have a free video planner at loubortone. com forward slash.

And that'll just help you sort of map out your video and, and know what you're going to say. And you don't have to script it. You don't have to have it all, you know, word for word. Sometimes it just helps to know, okay, I'm going to do my intro and I'm going to do these three points. And then I have a call to action.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I do. I think it's really helpful because. By the time you're two thirds in, you don't remember how you wanted to end it. And so it's kind of good.

Lou Bortone: Yeah. A few bullet points. And then there's always, you know, editing. You can always go into Descript and use the AI to take out all your filler words and, and sound smarter.

Sarah: That's great. I always ask one last question to all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?

Lou Bortone: Wow. At my age, just waking up, but, but yeah, I mean, it's [00:39:00] here in the U. S. in February in New England, it's, it's chilly out, but you know, the sun's out and everybody's healthy and, you know, it's all good.

Nice.

Sarah: Wonderful. Well, let's hope it stays like that. It's really good to reconnect with you. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Lou Bortone: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Sarah: And that's a wrap for today. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Lou and his work at loubortone. com. Lou also has a free video planner for us that helps us plan the content of our video before we hit that recording button. So you'll find this at loubartone.

com forward slash planner. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about our community at [00:40:00] humane. marketing forward slash circle. And you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 6.

And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet.

We are changemakers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] soon.

In today’s episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth.

George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth.

Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices.

Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically.

In this real conversation, we talked about:

• Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes
• What an authentic business really is
• How to do market research and why
• George’s approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches)
• George’s shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business
• Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up)
• and much more...

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full Ep 185

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people.

Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me.

My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane.

marketing.

Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane.

George: marketing

Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people.

Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity,

George: and spiritual growth. In this

Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic

George: conversation may speak about

Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches.

He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business.

George: When do I

Sarah: my thoughts

George: as well on that topic. Authentic business

Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal

George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our

Sarah: business.

So for example

George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service.

Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do.

You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life.

And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment?

How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it.

I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner.

For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses.

And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business.

So

Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much.

And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life.

Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit.

Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is,

George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic.

Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them.

And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business.

Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life.

It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible.

And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be.

Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect?

It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say.

Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah.

Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is.

One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works.

And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept.

It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago.

George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert.

I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems.

It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me.

That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that.

I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority.

Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice.

That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah,

Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us

George: a little bit.

Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11.

Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided.

With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible.

So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic.

If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity.

Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls?

Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program.

You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own.

So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do.

And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents.

Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market.

Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it.

Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year.

Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement?

This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you.

I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20.

Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation.

What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer.

So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful.

So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right?

This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them.

Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection.

And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life.

No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay.

At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true.

T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse

Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that.

It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of

George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit.

Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list.

Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever.

And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates.

Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not.

All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it.

Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever.

It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic.

It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever.

So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too.

Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong.

So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two.

And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too.

But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches.

Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it.

We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still,

George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us.

And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time.

I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing

Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs.

So would you say maybe then three

George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle.

Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula.

Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated.

Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy.

For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most?

The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months.

So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist.

And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon.

It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up?

You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that.

I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important.

And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through.

This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on.

So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients.

And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I

Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing.

And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic.

George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out.

So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again.

Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send

Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I

George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment?

What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things.

So, yeah,

Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work.

George: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind

George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses.

It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I

Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely

George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that.

And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well.

And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love

George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it.

I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better.

So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right.

All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools.

Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us.

I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average.

I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this.

I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction.

I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this?

Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing.

I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me.

I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work.

We can do higher

Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more.

It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive,

George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI.

We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right?

Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural.

Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be

Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis.

It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And

George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine.

That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know,

Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop.

It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop.

George: Tell anything is you can.

Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway.

So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this.

Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought

George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books.

Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing.

Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with.

Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever,

George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that

Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on

George: April 2nd. Thank you.

Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Sarah: Take care.

I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao.

You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane.

marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15.

To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling

George: like a human.

so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself.

Sarah: We are changing history for America.

In today's episode, we delve into "Pivoting for Good". We discuss the impact of purpose-driven pivots, explore non-traditional success metrics, and offer practical steps for entrepreneurs considering meaningful changes.

This conversation aims to inspire and guide solopreneurs towards more humane, ethical, and sustainable business practices. Join us as we uncover how pivoting can be a powerful force for good.

In this conversation, we talked about:

• Her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from pivoters
• ‘Pivoting for Good’, a significant conversation among pivoters
• The trend to wanting to measure success using non-traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains
• Practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot
• and much more...

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Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client.

You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Caroline intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of pivoting. It's not an official P of the seven Ps of humane marketing. But that's the topic today. And I guess Pivoting is kind of a combination of all the seven P's of Humane Marketing. As always, if you're a regular here, you already know the seven P's of Humane Marketing.

But if you're new, this is your first time [00:03:00] here, a big warm welcome. You can download your one page marketing plan with the seven piece of humane marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business.

So it's not. Prescriptive, but it's reflective. So today I invited my colleague, Caroline Woods, to talk to us about pivots because she just recently hosted a summit slash event called the Pivot Narratives, where she featured many different pivotal stories from fellow entrepreneurs, including mine. So I thought I'd invite her for a conversation about pivoting for good.

Caroline is an introvert who supports other introverts to redesign their businesses so that their business allows them to thrive, [00:04:00] rather than just survive. Ditching the idea that they have to pretend to be an extrovert to get ahead. Caroline is a corporate escapee, having spent 20 years working as a chartered accountant, working for large businesses and not for profits.

She has wound her way around the world, working in Australia, her home country, the UK, Namibia, and Laos. In today's episode and conversation, we talked about her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from Pivoters. The concept of pivoting for good, a significant conversation among the pivoters that participated the trend to wanting to measure success using non traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains, practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot.

And much more before we dive in, allow me one last plug for the Marketing Like We're [00:05:00] Human program that starts on March 14th and is actually a great fit for pivoters. Okay, I realized I said one last time already on the last episode. So sorry about the super last plug. So Marketing Like We're Human, aka The Client Resonator is my flagship program that I've been running since 2019.

If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you already know the seven P's of humane marketing, and that's exactly what we're working through in the program. So, passion, personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion and partnership. That's the framework that we follow. And besides in depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics.

Even though I say it's about the Marketing Foundation, I often have participants who are in Not new to business. So they are ready for a pivot. They might have been in business [00:06:00] already for a while and just kind of going through the motions or not feeling happy with their business anymore or just realizing it's not what they're meant to do.

It's not their calling. And so oftentimes I have participants like that in the group. That want to create their life's work and from the ground up, do it right this time so that when they do go out and market, it comes from within. So that's what we do in the program. We go deep and we create the foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you.

It's part self development, part very pragmatic business best practices. It's part lift. Part right brain, part mind and heart. And if you go to humane. marketing forward slash program, there's a great number of testimonials and even whole case studies with videos from past participants. So go [00:07:00] and check out the details at humane.

marketing forward slash program. And yes, we are starting on March 14th. 2024, so quickly get in touch with me so we can book a chat. You can either book a call directly on the program page or connect with me via LinkedIn or send me an email at sarah at humane dot marketing. I can't wait to hear from you.

All right, let's dive into the conversation with Caroline about pivoting for good.

video1858641342: Hi, Caroline. So good to see you again. We haven't seen each other for a long time, so it's good to hang out on Zoom and obviously then put it on the podcast and on YouTube. But for us, it's just the two of us, right? Which is fun. Good to have you. I'm happy to have a conversation with you again. Yeah, exactly.

Wonderful. And it's always fun to see when talking to people on the other side, right? You're [00:08:00] in a t shirt and I'm in like my poncho. It's quite warm here tonight. Yeah. Good tell. Wonderful. So we, we decided to talk about pivoting for good because you just hosted a summit around pivoting where you were so kind to invite me and share my story of the pivot to humane marketing away from my LinkedIn consulting business and then to gentle marketing and then to humane marketing.

And so as I was kind of reading through the other stories of Pivoters I was thinking, Hey, that actually makes a really good subject for a conversation on the podcast. And, you know, you make the perfect guest for it. So you are we go way back. Yeah, we go way back. We have had prior exchanges.

Mainly related to being introverts and, and being [00:09:00] in business and, and marketing and all of that. So it's good to catch up with you. So let's go to that summit and maybe kind of lens of pivoting for good. What stands out to you now that the summit is over, do you feel like there was a bit of a theme related to.

Pivoting for good and maybe I can define to listeners. What I mean by that. Yeah, it's kind of like coming from the traditional business model of like, just making money, paying the bills individualistic to a more. Out there a model, meaning like, it's not just me for my business, but I'm actually wanting to contribute to change.

So that's what I think for this podcast we define as pivoting for good. So, did you notice kind of a theme in your summit from people's stories? It was definitely, I [00:10:00] think, a theme of pivoting for good.

And there's some people like yourself who haven't really defined how they're going to, how they want to make the world a better place. You know, that sort of idea of improving things for the communities they're in. So I think there are a couple of people like that, like Louise, who's from Leap32 Marketing, very much wants to work with companies who have a purpose led.

I think she's probably one of the most obvious ones. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is people pivoting, pivoting to pivot businesses that really reflected their values and so trying to show that their values coming through in their work and hopefully then influencing the world that they're sort of operating in to try and make, to try and ensure their values are actually being.

Reflected in those communities that they're working with, I guess is how I would [00:11:00] put it. So not always having a really clearly defined, this is how I help my community. But very, almost all of them had a very clear, I want my values to be reflected in my work. And so through values, hopefully I can make the place, you know, just a little bit better than what, what it was like when I, you know, when they started in business.

Yeah, that's interesting because that's kind of the, I did a video recently on the individual in the community, because that's kind of if you look at astrology, that's kind of the theme of the time of Aquarius where it's very, Much individualistic and saying, I want to do what I want to do and my values and all of that.

Then it's also a time of, well, how do I, given how, who I am fit into the community. And it feels like. Maybe that's the first step you know, really expressing our values and not just being kind of defined, but [00:12:00] by our clients, because let's say 10 years ago, it was all about, you know, adapting to the clients, right?

The client was the king and all that. And now it's like, well, what if, if I start with myself first and put my values first? So. It seems like there's a journey of saying, okay, I want to do a business how I want to do it. And then the next step will be like, well, how does that contribute to community at large to humanity at large?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that came through was sort of, it still ties into that individualistic idea, but then taking it further. is there are people who, you know, like myself, where I want to see introverts do well, but there are also quite a few people who took part who want to help other HSP people thrive.

So very much seeing community in that sort of sense, that they want people in that particular [00:13:00] community of HSP to thrive. Or for me, you know, I've said introverts, so there's also that It's sort of individualistic because it's who you are and wanting others who are like you to thrive. But in a way also building community in those similar people, right?

Yes. Yeah. And groups that don't do well or haven't, haven't been valued perhaps as much as society. Yeah. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of neurodivergent people as well, that's kind of, you know, a new thing in the business world that there is movements of neurodivergent people. And so I think that's another, yeah, you're right.

It's kind of like, okay, we finally can say how we're wired and who we are and let's find. Common who are, who are just like us and create communities with those people. Yeah. You're very right. Yeah. And I [00:14:00] think, I think helping them as well to be seen and valued by society. So thinking about those HSP people often have been HSP people, highly sensitive people have often been seen as too sensitive.

And now perhaps we're seeing, hopefully starting to see their sensitivity as. Something that really adds to the world that we're in and so how do we help them get, you know, get themselves out into the world and share their, their sensitivity better. I think it's. It's an interesting, interesting idea of community.

And I really believe that helps in this paradigm shift that kind of goes from a very, very masculine energy to a more feminine energy and HSPs kind of have this gift to bring out the feminine energy, right? So it belongs to that shift as well. Yeah. Maybe can you pick like one or two stories [00:15:00] that really.

Stood out to you and that you would love to share here. I think probably two. So one of the ones I thought was really interesting is Nadia Finas, who went from being a business coach and she now helps people who are shy like herself and have a really, you know, she has a, quite a, her voice is quite high pitched, I guess you'd say, and I think, you know, she's in the past, she's really struggled with her voice and she struggled with shyness.

And so I think that's been really interesting. It's a really interesting story for me of moving away from the online business world on business coaching, which I think she was getting very jaded about and then coming around this idea where she can help shy people instead and bringing a lot of her. You know, I can see with the work that she does online that she brings a lot of those skills that she got as a business coach [00:16:00] to then helping get her voice out about how shy people can be supported in the workplace.

So I really liked her story, particularly I think

you often see it going the other way of people moving from say a life coach to a business coach. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think, yeah, that scene is a much more natural path going perhaps sort of in the other direction, I think was really interesting. Yeah. And then I really like Ruth Pound White's story that, you know, she's actually, she had a really successful copywriting business.

And she gave that away to be a business coach and a soulful, you know, helping people with their, their sales and doing it in a soulful way. And I think that, again, is really interesting, I think, but for me, both of them, that whole giving up something that's earning you money, doing well, that society probably sees and values you doing, [00:17:00] moving into, you know, completely giving that up and doing something new.

I think they're the two that. I think for me, it's the courage of giving up something successful to start again is really powerful. Yeah, yeah, it makes me laugh because I remember when I first put out the Marketing Like We're Human book and then was on these typical marketing podcasts and they would always ask me about Conversion rates.

And, you know, does this actually work? Do we have proof that humane marketing works? And kind of my counter question is, was always like, well, the question is more like, does the traditional marketing still work for you? Can you still sleep at night? Right. Doing the things you're doing now. And so it's like, well, if you're, if it still works for you, then yeah.

Why give it up? Right. But if you just know deep inside, well, this is actually not working for me anymore, then, then you need the courage to leave it behind and, and pivot to [00:18:00] something else. Yeah. I think that's really the thing about a pivot. Like, okay. Sometimes it might be a forced pivot. Which kind of was, you know, the story for me with the trademark issue moving away from gentle marketing.

Okay. That was a forced pivot. I'm glad it happened now looking back. But then, yeah. So, so what would you say? Are, are, are there different reasons we just mentioned one or two, the forced one, and then the one where it's kind of like, well, something's not working for me. Is there another reason that you noticed why people are moving away from or pivoting to something else?

Louise, who I mentioned before from Leap 32, I think she was probably, I think she's probably the only person in the whole project who pivoted because she thought there was more. [00:19:00] So I thought that was, hers was really interesting in that regard, in that it wasn't that she was particularly unhappy with in the role she was in, but she could see that there was more.

And I think that's probably the other. The other reason is that they, you can see there are possibilities to get more out of your life and to get more out of your business. Yeah. And hopefully, and in her case, to give back more to community than what she was doing in her old job. Yeah. I think a lot of the others are forced.

I mean, I would even say in some ways, You know, both of our pivots were forced in terms of feeling so uncomfortable with what we were doing. It was also almost our you know, when you stop doing your traditional marketing and I stopped doing Facebook ads, it was very much, you're almost forced because it doesn't feel right.

Yeah. Because of ethical reasons, right? Yeah. Whereas some people are forced because, you know, [00:20:00] Celia, who shared her story, I mean, she probably could have kept going, but she had a co working space and obviously COVID hit and there was no co working. So it gave her an opportunity to really reassess what she was doing.

So, you know, different types of force, I think. Mm hmm. Yeah. You mentioned about the, is there more this question I think for me in the LinkedIn, when I transitioned out of the LinkedIn consulting, I think that's what, what it was for me, like, is this all I'm ever going to do is, is it more? So it wasn't like more in terms of, can I make more money somewhere else?

Yeah. It's like. In my life, is this my role or is there something else, something deeper? And I guess that's also what I'm hinting at towards, you know, the pivoting for good. I think a lot of people feel this calling right now for more. How can I [00:21:00] contribute to this shift right now? With my business, and isn't there a pivot that I should be making right now?

So, yeah, I, I'd agree that it's probably those three is like, is there more? Another one is a forced pivot and, and the third one is more like, well, what can I let go of in something else? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that, that really resonates in terms of what I just said, you know, is there more? So. It's not usually money did it was that a common theme as well that most of the people didn't pivot because.

You know, it's like, well, I want to make even more money. And that's the reason for the pivot. I guess the question is like, would people still measure success with just money or were people measuring success in another way? No, I don't think [00:22:00] anyone measured success through money or maybe one. Maybe Amber McHugh did.

And hers was a forced pivot. So she had, she had a photography, Boudoir photography company, and again, COVID shut them down. And so they used that first year of the COVID to actually decide to really, really invest in their company and grow it significantly. After cover, but I think she was probably the only person who even, you know, thought, you know, had a money as a measure of her success for everyone else.

It was much more about giving back to community or doing work that was more interesting to them. So that's all that individualistic side, but, you know, what. What work feels good to them to do. Right. And yeah, I think that would probably be the main two, actually, is that doing work [00:23:00] they enjoy and being able to give back were the two main measures of success that got mentioned in the project.

Yeah. Kind of does in their piece as well. Right. It's just being happy in your, in your work rather than feeling like you're doing something that is not aligned. That's kind of the, yeah, the sense I got from most of the stories as well. And I think working with people who they were aligned with was another one.

So having clients that are in alignment. Yeah, so I mean, I guess similar to you, finding people who do marketing, there's a few other people in the project that do marketing, and it was very much about finding ways of doing it ethically and working with people who want to do marketing in a way that Feels good, you know, isn't that that more aggressive masculine marketing that we see so often.

So that definitely came through quite a [00:24:00] few people. Yeah. Another topic that comes to mind is because it's, it's 1 of my kind of like. Yeah, it's really important to me is the collaboration instead of competition. So, yeah, did you feel like there was also a bit of a pivot towards more, let's see how we can collaborate?

As entrepreneurs, let's see how I can tap into, because most of these business owners, entrepreneurs already had existing experience. So was that a priority for people to pivot into kind of like, yeah, more community building or more collaboration with others? What, what did you see? No, I don't, I didn't actually see much of that, which was really interesting for me because.

You know, over the past year as I've [00:25:00] been, you know, sort of wending my way through my own messy pivot, I think community and collaboration has really come up as a theme for me. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I organized the Pivot Project, that I really, I like the, I love the idea of sharing a range of voices because I think we gain so much from hearing how different people are doing things and their thoughts on them, that it can help us to shape our own ideas.

Cheers. Cheers. Around how we want to do our businesses, how we want to interact with the world, how we want to make it bigger and bigger and better, you know, bigger, not necessarily in a money sense, but bigger in terms of maybe bigger hearted but I don't it's really interesting. I don't think community came through.

In the actual stories, you know, I certainly saw it as part of the pivot project that people really enjoyed that they, you know, I've had messages from people who took part that [00:26:00] one of the things that they've really got out of that is they've met some really fantastic new people who, you know, who that they were in the project with, and I, you know, that's been really exciting for me.

So, Yeah. Yeah. Not so much in their own stories, but definitely as part of being in the project. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I know that, I only know that Andy Mort who was also featured, he has his own community and, and it's important to him and I do, I don't know if anybody else, yeah. Has that or it's important to them, but, but I'm curious about your own pivot.

So, so tell us more about, you know, what's been going on for you, for you over the last year or so. I think for me,

I've done a number of different things. I started off doing sort of Facebook ads and then [00:27:00] some tech VA work. And now really settling on, well, I wouldn't say settled. So the business strategy is definitely uses the best, it's the best use of my skills. I think bringing together my accounting, my planning skills, my problem solving.

And then for me, I think over the past year, the real pivot has been around who I help. And I think for me, part of that has been, you know, I say I help introverts, but I've been realizing over the past year that that is. That's too big a group and that there are some other important things that fit into that group for me a big one.

And probably because I've been spending too much time reading your stuff is ethical marketing. And that, you know, it's really important to me that the introverts I work with share that ethical marketing, humane marketing perspective. I don't want to work with people [00:28:00] who are only there for the money. And we all need money.

I think money is wonderful, but there's something more to what they want to get from their business is part of that. And then certainly overthinking, I think, is another bit that I've struggled with. And I think that's where I also bring a set of skills into helping people who overthink with planning.

But definitely the big one has been that ethical because I've seen, I've seen people who are introverts. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're ethical. I think it's really easy to, to label yourself. So I label myself as an introvert, and then they are, because I, I, you know, I want ethical marketing that all introverts are going to be into ethical marketing as well, which of course is completely not true.

And I think it's getting that better sense of who I want to work with. And support that's been this really that last year, the pivot of the last year has been really trying to work out who that person is or who [00:29:00] those people are that I want to work with and support. Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm just thinking back to, yeah, my first podcast that was also, you know, interviewing introverts.

And I think that's where you and I met for the first time. And it's true back then that was like a big thing. Oh my God, you're saying out loud that you're an introvert, right? And we thought, okay, all introverts think alike, and then, you know, obviously we noticed, oh, that's not true at all. And it really kind of confirms this, this idea that I say that to make your worldview, your niche, rather than just have a niche of introverts.

Well, your worldview is, let's do things ethically. And then that. Becomes the niche within the introverts, right? So it's every introvert, but just the ones that align with your worldview. And I think it's an evolution, right? It's [00:30:00] just like, this is, this is becoming more and more important. And so it's, it's interesting to hear.

And I noticed the same thing for me. I'm like, well, yeah, it used to be introverts. Definitely not true anymore, because I know a lot of introverts where I'm like. No, it's not, no, no resonance. And the reason is because we don't have the same worldview. It's really, I think for me, it's still introverts because I'm probably ambiverts.

I think people who are really extroverted, I don't do as well with, you know, like my work style doesn't work as well with them. Sometimes I would never work with an extrovert, but yeah, I think my, my work, how I work. It's what attracts introverts, but it's the worldview that then drives the other bitch. So it's sort of bringing the, the, how I work with the, how I think together to make it a much more [00:31:00] aligned business for me.

Right. I started to call my ideal clients, deep thinkers, because I feel like It doesn't matter whether they're introverted or extroverted, that's just how they recharge their battery. But if, if they are deep thinkers, thinking about things deeply, thinking about, you know, our current challenges. So not just thinking about themselves.

That's to me is kind of the definition and, and oftentimes they are introverts, but not always. So, yeah, it's just, I've been thinking for me, the word I want to bring into my work. is that I really love is thoughtful because I really like the duality of the word that it's got that deep thinker part in it that they're thoughtful about their business and intentional.

And I also really like the idea of thoughtful in terms of kindness and thinking about clients. So that's sort of, I think where I'm heading. Yeah. And I think that combines that. Can be an extrovert and be a deep [00:32:00] thinker. So, you know, probably does, I would work with extroverts who fit into that category, but then also that I do want to see a kinder world.

And that's where the other part of that word comes from. I like that. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how, how much power and resonance words have. Right. And obviously that's, that's a big thing in marketing and communication.

Let's kind of wrap up and talk a little bit about, well, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, Oh my God. Yeah. That's exactly what has been happening over the last year or so. Where would you say, where do you start? Where did you start? Because again, it can take a lot of courage to, you know, move into another direction or let something go that has been working well, or maybe it hasn't been working well, but it's the only thing you have.

So [00:33:00] yeah. What were your first steps? And then a new direction. I think for me, I was, and I was the only one who talked about this on the project that for me, I just, I got so out of alignment with my business that I actually went back, went back to work and got a job. And so that I was financially secure.

And for me, that's one of the most, I think that's one of the really important things in making a, I don't want to call it a courageous pivot, but in making a pivot that perhaps doesn't feel as accepted by family or whoever it is. You need to have that money piece. Yeah, sorted to be creative, like if you can't pay your bills, I think it's really difficult.

You know, to tap, to be able to take that step, you know, if you're worried about money, then you're going to make unaligned decisions in the name of money. And I still do that today. I think I still take on clients that I, [00:34:00] I shouldn't because I think money still feeds into that. I'm getting better at saying no to people, but it's, yeah, so definitely for me it was money.

And then really, I think my best advice is just to start journaling about what you wanted to actually look like. That it's amazing what happens when you start to get things down on paper, and then start to look for other people in that world. So, you know, for me, it was starting to find people like you, like Ruth Poundwhite, other people who are doing, you know, who have that world, similar worldview to I do, that I do, and looking at how they do their business and what they're sharing about their thoughts on how, how you can do business in a way that feels much better for you.

And hopefully it's much better for your community. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the money piece. I think that is, I think it's actually a very courageous pivot because there is so much stigma around, you know, business owners going back to work. And I think that is the, [00:35:00] yeah, the best. I mean, most courageous thing you can do because you're right, you can't, you can't even think if you don't have that financial safety.

So, so don't start planning in that scarcity mode because it's not, it's not going to work. So yeah, I've actually seen quite, I've seen quite a few bigger business names sharing that they've gone and taken jobs. This.

So either they've, you know, they've become a fractional marketing officer for someone that that kind of role and I really, I really like that they're sharing that and hopefully taking what I hadn't seen that, but that's really, yeah, that's really nice to hear because it's true that and I think especially, you know, the big businesses, they, I think there has been a huge kind of shift in terms of, you know, You know, what works and what doesn't work and it's especially the big businesses with also with big [00:36:00] expenses, right?

Well, things are not working anymore. Like they used to before the pandemic. So yeah, so I'm really hoping that message gets out that actually. It's okay to take a job if that's what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah, in this season. And there'll be another season where you come up with a fabulous business that you love rather than trying to, trying to make something that doesn't support you succeed.

I think that's, I think you might as well have a job in that case. If you're doing a business that doesn't light you up, then you might as well have a job. It's probably a lot easier. You can shut off at the, you know, the end of the day, hopefully. Yeah. It's the same thing that people who are wanting to start their first business.

I always say, you know, build it while you still are on the job. So you have that financial security. Because otherwise it just, yeah, it really is scary. So, [00:37:00] and I think at the end of the marketing, like we're human book, I also mentioned that in terms of shifting to a different way of marketing. Because what happened for me, that was like a big drop, right?

When you shift from the, the kind of the pushy marketing stuff and the pushy launches and all of that into a more humane approach to marketing. And right now I'm, you know, onboarding for the Marketing Like We're Human program, and I'm having conversations with people, right? So yeah, it takes a lot more time.

And so there, there's going to be fewer people. So obviously there's a shift also in, in the income and you need to, you need to adjust for that. I mean, you can't just do it overnight. So, so kind of like. Yeah, maybe still keep doing what works well because of the money safety and then slowly shift out of it as you grow the other side.

Yeah, and you can definitely, I think, you know, [00:38:00] with marketing, there's always an option to even just change it slightly. So you start to, you know, if you get rid of the particularly masculine element of your marketing, that particular aggressive. You can still do reasonably well while you're moving it to become more how you want it to be.

Exactly, yeah, it's still a small shift, yeah. Yeah, but everything doesn't have to be a big, right, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm only doing this. There's definitely a gradual move that you can take if that's what's going to make you, going to be able to support you financially as you make the shift. Yeah, so good.

Any, any other, I think the question is in terms of the future, where do you see the future of business, humane business? Do you feel like there is going to be more and more a move [00:39:00] towards this more aligned and, and ethical business? Do you see that in Australia, for example? I think I was but I think with the change in economic condition conditions that it's meant that people have right people feel less like it's a you said before it's a whole scarcity so because people are struggling to find clients.

Your businesses are struggling. Things feel like they're scarce. That means that you, I think you tend to flip back into perhaps not so ethical marketing that has worked for you in the past. That, yeah, I think, I think the economic conditions might slow the movement down a little bit. That's for sure.

Unfortunately, people will be less, less willing to take risks. Which, you know, you can completely understand. Yeah. Yeah. And it's [00:40:00] unfortunately always like that when things are back, well, people are scared and we, we go back to the things that work and that create immediate income. Right. Yeah. I think my hope is though that it will be.

You know, we've taken two steps forward and we're only going one back. So, you know, we're always moving forward, even if it's at a much slower pace and perhaps we would ideally like, but it's still a move, you know, it's still better than it was. Yeah. Yeah. It's baby steps. Like you said. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's leave it on that positive tone.

Thanks so much for, for sharing your insights. Caroline, that's, this has been delightful. I always ask one question and that is, what are you grateful for today and this week? At the moment I'm just really, so my two dogs have been quite sick, so I'm just very grateful that they're healthy this week and I'm enjoying their [00:41:00] company and then I can hear them making crying noises in the background as we talk because they're showing the back room and they want to come out.

Yeah. I'll let you go back to them. I'm glad you, you saying that because I, I remember like, even like weeks back when we exchanged emails, you were saying that they were sick, so they must have been sick for a while now. Yeah. I mean, I've got terminal illnesses, but we hit a good, hit a good patch this week.

So you have to take those wins. Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful to hang out. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me, Sarah.

Caroline outro: Thanks so much for listening. I hope you got great value out of this episode, especially if you're considering your own pivot. You can find out more about Caroline and her work at quietlyextraordinary. com and Caroline has actually collated all the stories into an ebook, which you can now download at [00:42:00] quietlyextraordinary.

com forward slash the dash. Pivot dash narratives. So go there and get inspired by all these pivot stories. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. We'd love to have you there. you're actually in the midst of your own pivot.

Have a look at the Marketing Like We're Human program and see whether that might help you right now. Humane dot marketing forward slash program. You find the show notes of this episode at Humane dot marketing forward slash HM184. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a [00:43:00] generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon!

In today’s episode, we’re diving into the world of pitching, but not as you know it. Forget the dread and discomfort often associated with pitching; with our guest, Rachel Allen, we’re exploring how to turn it into a process of genuine connection and growth.

You’ll discover why pitching feels challenging, how to embrace it authentically, and strategies tailored for introverted solopreneurs. We’re also covering practical tips on tracking your pitching efforts in a simple, effective way. If you’ve ever wondered how to pitch in a way that feels true to you and builds lasting relationships, this is the conversation for you.

Join us as we learn to navigate the balance between effective pitching and maintaining our authenticity, all while growing our businesses in a humane way.

In this episode, Rachel shares:

• Why we hate pitching and how to change that
• How to pitch authentically
• That pitching is actually about creating relationships
• Pitching strategies for introverts
• How and what to track when pitching, the simple way
• and much more…

 

--

 

Ep 183

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Rachel. Good to see you, and welcome to the humane marketing podcast. It's a delight to have you here.

Rachel: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

I know we've wanted to talk about this for, what, over a year, I think. Um, so I'm excited that we're finally able to to make our schedules match.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. We've talked about different versions of this. And so, uh, in the end, we Decided to, um, talk about pitching, which I think is so relevant. And and in in a way, I think maybe it's because I kept Seeing was it you or someone else? You know, all kinds of people always post about the pitches that they get on LinkedIn and and how wrong they are and and all of that.

So I'm like, yeah. That's a that's a good topic because We wanted to talk about pitching, but not just about how it's bad, but how you can actually do it in a way that [00:01:00] feels Ethically good and humane. So I think the the title of the podcast, I called it Humane Pitching. Ching. So let's dive into that and and how that would look like.

Because I do think it's a it's a relevant business It's, um, tactic to understand, uh, how to work it. And and and so you specialize in that because you're really good with words. And and so you I approached you to come on to the come come on to the podcast, but then also come to the community and and, uh, do a collab workshop on the topic of humane pitching. So so why don't we start with kind of your experience with Pitching, but also with receiving pitches and how that changed, maybe how you approach them and how you teach them.

Rachel: Yeah.

Oh, I love that. So my experience with pitching is actually a little bit of a sandwich. Um, I before I [00:02:00] did Uh, online marketing. I was a journalist. And so my initial experience with pitching was actually writing and receiving press releases And, um, understanding how to pitch articles in that kind of environment.

I never really thought I would use that again until I started doing online marketing and started getting all of these really Bad pitches where I was it would be people who clearly had, you know, even gotten the basics wrong. Like, they'd misspelled my name, or, um, Um, you could tell that they just copy pasted the same thing to a thousand people. Or my favorites would be the ones who, um, they would try to sell me something like drop shipping. And I'm like, I'm a marketer. What am I gonna drop ship?

Like, I don't have merchandise. That's nice. So I would see these and be like, That's dumb. I should do something about it. And then, uh, last year, I finally was like, okay.

It's time. Because I kept I saw this big wave of ones coming up again because of our the shifts that we're having in our, uh, demographic online. And so I was like, okay. I'm [00:03:00] gonna just Fix this once and for all and teach a podcast teach a teach a workshop called pitching for people who hate pitching. And, um, in preparation for that, I worked out a methodology for myself where I pitch 10 ish or so podcasts a week.

It takes me about 30 minutes a day, the if that much. And most of all, it's just it feels like human to human conversations. Nobody walks out of this interaction feeling bad, Which was my priority for creating it.

Sarah: Yeah. That's great.

And I think pitching for podcasts is a great example. Right? That's As a podcast host, I probably receive sometimes, like, once 1 per day and and other, You know, other weeks is, like, at 2 per week. And and there's the occasional 1, like, once in a blue moon that I'm like, okay. Yeah.

This feels authentic. But most of them, um, just yeah. Not even not even replying anymore, I have to [00:04:00] admit. I'm like, I just don't have the energy to reply or or teach them something. Um, actually, it's funny because I'm I'm gonna grab my phone.

Just before We got on the on the call. I received 1. And that's kind of the new the new way, I think, of doing it, Uh, where they pretend that they're, like, your biggest fan, and they'll pick 1 episode that they really loved apparently, and they're They shared it with their team. So he's like, yeah. We shared it with it with my team.

And then it's like, I'm wondering if you'd be open to, uh, being introduced to someone in I know in the SaaS space. I'm like, SaaS space. Like, I I okay. I have nothing against technology and, you know, All that, but had it has nothing to do with the other episodes that I'm I'm usually posting. So, clearly, that kind of, like, warming up, Bo, I know you so well.

I'm your biggest fan. It just feels so fake. Right? And and [00:05:00] I have to admit that, like, for a mini Split of a second, I'm like, oh, that's nice because your ego goes it's like, oh, yeah. That that feels good.

But then you're like, Wait a minute. No. This is not real. Right? And and so there it feels like there's these waves of Kind of pitching advice that goes out.

Uh, I don't know who teaches them anymore. Like, it used to be the Neil Patel's, and Hopefully, they have evolved a little bit. So now it's other people who are teaching these strategies where it's just kinda like you can tell, oh, This is you know, this person has attended this program, and then it's all Mhmm. Feels the same. So I'm really curious what You are teaching how that is different, and you kind of hinted at is the relationship building.

So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well,

Rachel: like you said, the the main core focus when I teach this workshop, I tell people, here here's the way you [00:06:00] make this work for you. Your metric of success is not how many yeses you get. It's how many questions you ask.

And so we immediately take the, like, the need for the other person to do something off the table. The And this is only on you. Are you going to get more guesses the more you do this? Of course, you will. But I like doing I like teaching it this way because it takes the pressure off of Every ask should have to be, like, so perfect because it has to be a yes.

And it also takes the pressure off the other person because whatever they do, you've already won. You filled out another line on your spreadsheet. You've done a good job. So it makes it just psychologically easier on everybody involved. And then the way that we actually do this outreach Is we, um, reach out to people that are screened.

So I teach you how to prescreen for people that are actually a good fit. I have an absolute no for this, like, Carpet bombing approach where you're just like, let me invite all my Facebook friends. You know? That's terrible. Nobody likes that.

Right. And, uh, we have a structure Where we actually, um, we have the same pitching [00:07:00] templates that you sort of start from every time. So you don't have to, like, go through the blank page every single time. But you tweak it specifically for every single person that you reach out to. And, um, it includes, you know, like you said, some personal not like Creepy personal information, but it shows that you've actually, like, looked at their stuff.

And, um, it puts the focus on what you can bring to them. So it's not reaching out to somebody and saying, hey. Give me something. It's saying, hey. I have something to offer.

Do you think that might be a fit for us? Let's talk about that.

Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. Um, like, in in the marketing, like, we're human program, 1 1 of the bonuses is a podcast, Uh, 1 sheeter as a bonus. So so, um, I feel like when you come Paired. So the people who come to me with a pitch where I feel like, oh, they've they've actually listened to the or 1 specific episode. And then they propose something that is related [00:08:00] to that episode, and they give me bullet points Of what they could be speaking about, that to me is an easy yes.

You know? Obviously, yes. I'm gonna go look at their website and see if it's a good fit, But it makes it easy for me as the host to Mhmm. To say yes to it rather than, like, this guy, would you be open to Like, no. Like, that is too much work for me to then figure out, well, who's he gonna suggest?

Uh, all this research that I have to do, I'm like, no. Thank you. So, um, what what you're saying basically is, yes, come prepared. And so, obviously, if you have a 1 1, um, 1 sheeter for for for you as the as the guest or or I think even better, and and that's really what stands out, is is the Bullet points. Like, here's what I could be talking about.

Right? That makes it really easy. So in terms of podcasting, That makes a lot of [00:09:00] sense because you you actually do come and offer something. Right? You offer your expertise to be a guest on the podcast.

Let's talk about pitching in other, um, topics. Like, if I'm gonna come and pitch myself as as a provider of my services. How would you do it there? It becomes a bit more tricky. Right?

Rachel: Yeah. So it's you can use the same structure. It's just a little bit different in terms of the information that you put into it. So I love the way you were you were framing this. It's like, basically, every pitch is is generosity.

It's a gift. It's like, what can I give to you to start up this relationship? And it's the exact same thing with your services. So what I recommend people do is don't just reach out and say, like, hey. I'm a copywriter.

Do you have work? No. Leave me alone. Like, of course not. But if you say, hey.

I've been following your site. Like, I think your social media is amazing. I have noticed this 1 thing, And I'm curious if you do it, like, do you have a reason for it? [00:10:00] If not, like, here's what I might suggest, and I'm very careful to teach people. Like, you don't wanna, Like, bash on them.

It's not like, wow. You could be so great if only your social media wasn't garbage. Let me fix that. It's terrible. No.

Don't do that. Instead, it's like, hey. I think it became really cool if you tried this idea and just tell them. Like, let them tell them the strategy. Let them go try it if they want.

And you say, If you wanna talk about that, I'm happy to talk about it. I love to help out. That's something that I do. And then you give a couple of little bullet points of, like, here's what that could look like. And, again, not it's not like fresh and read.

It's not pushy. It's just like, hey. Here's what I do. Here's what that could look like. Do you wanna talk about that?

And that's that. It's not like buy my thing or watch your business go up in flames. No 1 likes those

Sarah: things. Yeah. Exactly.

The the kind of negative, You know, voice and and and then I'm like, oh, but I have the solution, and let me let me help you. It's like, well, thank you very much, but no.

Rachel: That's so condescending too. Right? Because you go [00:11:00] in assuming that they don't know what they're doing wrong or if they don't have a reason for doing it differently than what you might recommend.

So it's to this, like, just with this commitment to see the other person as just as human as you are and assuming that they know they probably do know what they're doing. And you can come to the table as equals and maybe find a way forward that's better or different or get some different results. But it's not about you coming in and fixing somebody's problem because, Like, what's the first thing anybody does? Even if you know you're doing something wrong and if somebody comes up and they're like, I can help you. You're like, leave me alone.

I'm

Sarah: fine. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. No.

It it's very human to be then self defensive and go, well, yeah, to who asked you for advice? Right? So so it really needs to be wrapped in this generosity, um, kind of package where it's like Yeah. Where where it doesn't feel like they they just wanna teach me something, um, and then charge me for it, but really, like, yeah. Hey.

Let's Let's have a [00:12:00] look at how how this could help you and and then not in a way where probably also it means, like, you need to be okay to not charge for Yeah. This first interaction. Right? It really should be generous and therefore free.

Rachel: Mhmm.

And I think that's something that I I encourage people to think about when they're in the workshop. I'm like, you need to think about your capacity for this as well. Yeah. So I encourage people to always lead with generosity, to think of it as a relationship building exercise that happens to have the side effect of you get more work And you get, you know, different work and you get more of what you want. But the main focus always has to be on the person and the relationship.

And it sounds counterintuitive, especially in the way that pitching is normally taught, which is, you know, hey, b, c, always be closing. Right. Yeah. But we're humans. You know?

We're not doing multinational corporation deals. We're talking to people, usually 1 on 1 or 1 to a small team. It's so much more effective to have a [00:13:00] relationship with someone and be open to where that might lead because the kind of cool thing is If you come in with a preconceived idea of how your relationship is gonna end up, that may actually be, like, way smaller than what it could become. I've definitely had interactions with people where I was like, oh, I think maybe they'll end up becoming, like, a monthly blog client. And then it's like, just kidding.

We're gonna do fractional CMO work. And if I had come in saying, like, I'm gonna do your blogs, k, then I would have never thought to expand this much more larger and rewarding work.

Sarah: Right. Another thing you just brought up is this idea of relationship. Right?

And what came up for me is, like, well, also Don't necessarily see this 1 on 1 relationship as kind of a 1 way road. And and, like, this is Gotta have to turn into a client. It could just stay at the relationship level and then bring clients through referral, for example. Right? Because [00:14:00] you have created something beautiful.

You've given your work for free. The person doesn't need You right now or maybe they don't have the budget. But having created this awe moment then leads this person to refer you to Well, her friends. Right? And so it's like, if you go in and it's just like, oh, it needs to be a yes from this person, Then you're basically closing on all your other avenues, uh, as well.

Rachel: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I'm so glad that you articulated that. I think Curiosity is such a big part of this as well. Just like, I don't know what's gonna happen when we sit down and talk.

You know, we're people. Humans are inherently unpredictable. Who knows? But let's find out. Yeah.

Sarah: Well, I happen to know that you are also an introvert. And so it feels like, uh, You know, that that pitching, I think, just a word pitching introverts probably go, oh, no. Thank you. Right? So how can This how can we [00:15:00] make this even better for introverts?

Like, that it doesn't feel So dreadful. Um, what do you

Rachel: suggest? So when I think, you know, Love the word pitching. I think of being at 1 of those horrible networking events where you have to go around and shake everybody's hand and be like, oh, we have not, you know, very high energy. Sounds terrible.

That's exhausting. I hate those. I don't do them. So what I recommend instead with this, um, is, First of all, to just remove attachment to the outcome, which I know we've talked about. But I I think as an introvert, that makes it easier for me because then it's not like, Oh, I have to put my extrovert face on.

It's more like, no. I'm here. This is how I talk. This is who I am. Let's see what happens.

Another thing I remind people always is that you don't have to respond at the very second somebody responds to you. These conversations take a long time. You know, they're time it takes time to build. So I see people get very anxious about their response time when they send out is like, oh, but if they email me that grand [00:16:00] way, I have to email them back or else we're gonna lose it. And no.

You know, don't if you don't want to. It's your business. No one's making you do anything. And another element of this is I always encourage people to write the way that they talk. A lot of times, Uh, as an introvert, it can be exhausting if I have to go and pretend to be more high energy or more whatever than I am.

But if I just write an email that sounds exactly like me, it doesn't have to sound sales y. It doesn't have to do anything except say, hey. This is who I am. Do you want to talk? That's a lot lower of a bar than having to feel like I'm doing the email equivalent of, like, getting my hair done and putting on a full face of makeup out of Fancy clothes and then going to talk to people.

So, um, oh, and the final thing is you don't have to do this all the time. Like, I do it, um, I do it usually daily because that's just easy for me, but there's also been times in my business where I've pitched very intensively for, like, 6 weeks and then ignored it for the rest of the year. So you can also gear it to [00:17:00] your own cycles of higher energy and when you have more resources to to be sort of more outward facing.

Sarah: Yeah. I love that.

Um, and I and I'll admit, I'm definitely not as regular as as you are. Um, I think I haven't Hitched any podcast in, like, probably more than a year. But I do know when the the third book comes out sometime down the road. That's what I'll do. Right?

And then I get very focused, and I can you know, I I get into this pitching mode. And, yeah, it feels good. It feels like, okay. I'm doing something very focused here. And it reminds me of a spreadsheet that that I then use.

So so I guess kind of the the wrapping up question is, like, well, Do you, yeah, do you suggest any kind of tracking method? How do you know whom you've already pitched? Worst Case is probably when you pitch [00:18:00] someone this the second time, and they're like, hey. You just sent me this 6 months ago. So what what kind of, uh, yeah, tools do you you recommend people use, if any?

Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely recommend a tracker. So we get to that's about, like, 2 thirds of the way through the workshop, and I'm like, okay. Everybody just gonna get real sad for a minute because we're having to talk about metrics. Yeah.

But Actually, it can be fun. It can be nice. I've, uh, I created a spreadsheet tracker that I share with everybody. I also have a Notion 1 that I use just I keep all my business stuff in Notion that I also share the template. And, um, what I always tell everyone is that, like, yes.

I know we don't like Spreadsheets, but this 1 is colored. It has pretty colors everywhere. It's nice. It's a friendly spreadsheet. I love that.

Um, we track as much information as we need 2, but no more. Because I also see people that either don't wanna track anything at all, and they're like, I'll just I'll just let the the ether of the Internet tell me what to do. Or They go the other 1. They're like, well, if I don't know their Social Security number, have I even kept [00:19:00] track? And I'm like, no.

You need their name. You need the last time they talk you talk to them, And you need, um, like, whether they're a yes or a no in their website. That's it. That's all you need. And so as long as you can keep up with those 4 things, like, that's all you need for the tracking.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. And and so maybe to come full circle, what you said at the beginning of the the episode is, like, It doesn't matter whether it's a yes or no. What matters is that you reached out. Right?

And so we're not really Tracking so much the yeses, but more we're more tracking that we've done it. Is is that

Rachel: correct? Yeah. So you track how you've done it. And then I always I also recommend people to take, after about 3 months, to, uh, track how you feel about it.

Like, does this feel good to you? Are you getting what you want out of this? If so, fantastic. Keep doing it. If not, then that's a really good sign that you can make a change Because there's no 1 right or wrong way to do this.

There's just the way that you make conversation and the way that [00:20:00] you reach out to people. So I always encourage people to Track those qualitative metrics over time as well.

Sarah: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense to feel into it because if it if it feels exhausting Sting and you're having all these 1 on 1 conversations. And at the same time, you need to give it some time.

Right? Yeah. So it's like, well, just by doing it 3 weeks is not gonna make your business explode. So it's kinda like use Common sense and and and maybe, yeah, do less of it, but keep consistency. So just, Yeah.

Adapt. Yeah. And readjust. Yeah. Exactly.

Wonderful. Well, tell us a A little bit about your structure of the workshop that you're gonna be doing for us on March sixth. Oh, I'm so excited.

Rachel: So we will come in, and we'll start by talking about, uh, why everyone hates pitching. And, um, I'll go through the 3 things that, Uh, not to do and 3 things to do.

So we'll keep it really simple. [00:21:00] Um, and then we will go into strategy for pitching. So, uh, how to how to create a strategy that actually makes sense for you and gets you what you want in your business, and that's where the beautiful little spreadsheet comes in because, of course, we have to track our metrics. Uh, we will then go into creating your, uh, pitching template. And so this is kind of a it's a foundational letter That you write.

And then you're gonna modify that slightly for each different person or podcast that you pitch to, but the general structure is always the same. So we'll talk through that, And then we'll wrap up with some, uh, information about vetting, you know, how to find where to find people, um, and what to do when you've actually got them. And, uh, I believe I'm trying to think. There's all sorts of resources attached to it at the end. So there's all kinds of gifts of, like, the the podcast trackers.

Uh, I have a 1 sheet, Uh, thing as well, but they can they can use too if they want to. And then, uh, we also have something for a press release, and I feel like I threw some oh, yeah. I have a template For asking for, uh, testimonials and referrals that [00:22:00] I also throw in there as well. So we end with gifts. Oh, and, of course, I forgot the most important part.

We do live feedback. So they will actually draft that letter while we're on the workshop together, and then they can get live feedback from me, uh, while they're on the workshop. Or if we're very introverted, and that sounds terrible, they can also email it to me afterwards, and we can just work on it via email. That's It's wonderful.

Sarah: Yeah.

Really, really looking forward to that. Thanks so much for for doing this. So, again, if you're listening to this and You're not yet part of the Humane Marketing Circle, you can still join us. And and so just go to humane dot marketing forward slash Workshop, and the page will be ready there. We're just asking for a donation, uh, between 15 and 27 dollars.

But, yeah, we'd love to have you and, uh, workshop. You're pitching with us. I'm really looking forward to to that. Thanks so much, um, for doing this. And something just just came to mind, and it left me again.[00:23:00]

What did it have to do with? Something that you said in the bonuses. 1

Rachel: sheet, press

Sarah: releases. Yeah. Press releases.

Exactly. Because we talked a lot about podcast pitching today, um, and then we talked about Service pitching. But you're right. There's the there's the testimonials. That's the other 1 you mentioned.

In a way, that's a pitch too. Right? It's a pitch. It has this kind of sales connotation, but essentially, it's just an ask. It's Yeah.

Asking for something, And that can be a testimonial. It can be for for, uh, yeah, an article that you want to have published. Um, any anything I'm forgetting?

Rachel: Yeah. Like, referral asks.

I do that a lot as well, um, and I encourage my clients to do it. Gosh. Anything. Uh, pitching to be to to teach a workshop in someone's space. I've done that a lot.

I also teach, uh, like, continuing legal education. Uh, so I do legal marketing stuff [00:24:00] as well. So, uh, I'll pitch to law societies or bar associations and say, hey. I'd love to do a CLE for you. So There's I mean, it's really I love that you reframed it as an ask because that's really what it is.

It's just, hey. Can we do this? Yeah. And that's so much easier to get behind than Give me something, which I think is most people approach pitching.

Sarah: Yeah.

Exactly. Can't wait. So Really? Yeah. Go Go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop and join us on March sixth because we're gonna have lots of fun and, uh, doing some serious work as well.

So thanks so much, Rachel.

Rachel: Uh, I love it. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Allow me a moment to share a bit of context and details about the Marketing Like We’re Human aka The Client Resonator program that's starting again on March 14th. This is my flagship 3month program that is tightly linked to this podcast, because it follows the same framework: the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It’s a deep dive into these 7Ps to help you discover who you are, what your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak.

But this is more than just marketing. This is building the foundation for your life’s work! We start with the inner: the Passion, the Personal Power and then go to the Outer: the People, the Product, the Pricing, the Promotion and the Partnership with others. We go deep, in an intimate group, and come out transformed, with a business that we’re truly aligned with.

It’s a hybrid program with a 30 minute video to watch each week, a beautiful workbook with deep reflection and journal prompts and then a live group call to go deeper!

Who is it for? Whether you have 1 year, 5 years or 10 years business experience, it’s never to late to go back to create the foundation and instead of just a business, create your life’s works, so you can truly market from who you are.

The best is always to hear it from other participants. Have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials and a handful of in depth case studies.

Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.

In today's episode I’m welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.'

Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity.

This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship.

In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics:

• How Melissa’s own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc.
• How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk'
• How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity
• and much more...

 

Ep 182

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human.

If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle.

And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome.

But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program.

And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers.

I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing.

So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes.

It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions.

They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that.

There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do.

We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay.

Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk.

So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa.

So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast.

Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here.

I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're

Sarah: doing. Thank you.

And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story?

I'm trying to remember the story.

Melissa: Did I reach I reached out

Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah.

Melissa: That's right.

Changing work collective. Changing work

Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc.

I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah.

Yeah. And so we

Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it.

You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect.

Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later.

Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions.

Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my

Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values.

So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right?

So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast.

I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values.

And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to.

Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further.

And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work.

Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well.

So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this.

I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations.

Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business.

Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that?

So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither.

You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know.

There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing.

I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing.

And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift.

I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that.

And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that.

Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc.

Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with.

Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it

Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity

Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah.

So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these

Melissa: things.

And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe.

Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that?

And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values.

Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm.

Yeah. And then you may have to figure

Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes.

We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So

Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like.

Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values.

At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us.

And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right?

So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves.

We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways.

Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values.

And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values.

Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity.

Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it.

I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion.

And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your

Sarah: post.

Yeah.

Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa?

Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation.

You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm.

Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before.

So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted

Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it.

Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches.

So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah.

That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things.

Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right.

That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't

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Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege.

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Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah.

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Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation.

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Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with.

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Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible.

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Sarah: Exactly.

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Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges.

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So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now.

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Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means.

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What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even.

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You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations.

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Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah.

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Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me.

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And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know

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Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay.

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Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or

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Melissa: 2 maximum.

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I would argue.

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Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership.

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And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in

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Melissa: every That's a how though. It

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Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity

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Melissa: and all of that.

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So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So

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Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them.

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Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement.

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Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah.

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Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case.

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Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should.

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You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand.

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I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is.

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It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm.

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Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media?

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How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right?

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Those are the roles. Mhmm.

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Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right?

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I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change?

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Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them.

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Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values.

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And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong.

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And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives.

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So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right.

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So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens.

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But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents.

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It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective.

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Well, general You and I

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Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had.

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Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are,

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Melissa: you know, similar.

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So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true.

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Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have.

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And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that.

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[00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right?

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However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it.

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And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it.

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Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change.

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And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than

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Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like.

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It

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Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this

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Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course.

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No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no.

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That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know

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Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right?

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Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact.

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Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right?

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Right.

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Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here.

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2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last

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Melissa: question. Okay.

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Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out.

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Sarah: Yeah.

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And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the

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Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm.

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And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift.

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I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay.

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Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right?

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It's kinda like Exactly.

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Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too.

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Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing.

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Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work.

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In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

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We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

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In today's episode I’m excited to welcome Louise Taylor, a heart-centered marketing expert and a member of our Humane Marketing Circle. Louise brings a wealth of experience from her transformative journey in both corporate and creative realms.

In this enlightening conversation, we explore how truly understanding yourself is key to standing out authentically in business. We discuss the profound impact of authenticity in resonating with your clients, and delve into how tools like the Fascinate assessment can illuminate your unique wiring.

Join us for this insightful episode filled with practical tips for bringing your true self into your marketing and connecting deeply with those you serve.

In this value-packed episode, Louise and I addressed:

• How Louise left her 20 year Corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself
• How taking the time to really figuring out who you are and how you’re wired is the key to stand out authentically (and it’s what we do so well in the MLWH program, which Louise participated in as well)
• How authenticity gives you deep inner peace and confidence to show up and stand out and resonate with your clients
• How Fascinate, an assessment created by Sally Hogshead truly helps you understand how the world sees you - and how you’re fascinating
• How to bring this knowledge into your marketing (bring more of you to your marketing, as I always say)
• and much more...

[00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded.

Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing circle And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15 years. Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.

Hi there friends, thank you for being here. Today's conversation fits under the P of I'd say personal power and passion. So if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is the first time you hear about this, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane Marketing at humane.

marketing forward [00:03:00] slash one. Page. The number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's not a, a seven step list on how to do humane marketing, but it's a reflective so that you get to actually be in charge and be this responsible, uh, business owner and human being to, um, put the thoughts into that kind of.

groundwork for humane marketing. All right. So today I sit down with Louise Taylor, a fellow marketer, HSP, and member of the humane marketing circle, and we're getting ready to co host another collab workshop, and this time the topic is standing out. Authentically. So Louise Taylor is a heart centered brand and marketing leader with 20 plus years of experience in corporate, [00:04:00] B2B, B2C financial services, and purpose driven businesses.

Add to that a decade of expertise in creative services, including design and photography, as an entrepreneur and creative soul early in her career. A high sensory coach, fascinate. So, certified advisor, high sensitive person and mentor. She naturally focuses on creating sincere and meaningful connections with all she engages with.

As the founder of Firefly Effect, she brings a discerning and analytical approach and leverages her breadth of experience to help purpose driven and mission led organizations achieve their business goals and create a positive impact on those they serve. So in this value packed episode with Louise, we addressed how she left her 20 year corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself, how taking the time during COVID to [00:05:00] really figuring out how Who she was and how she's wired and how that really is the key to stand out authentically.

And it's what we do so well in the Marketing Like We're Human program, which Louise also participated in, in those COVID years. We also talked about how authenticity gives you deep inner peace and it gives you the confidence to show up. and stand out and resonate with your clients. We then talked about how fascinate, uh, which is this assessment created by Sally Hogshead, truly helps you understand how the world sees you and how you're fascinating.

So it's one of these assessments dad, um, looks from the outside in where most of the other assessments, Myers Briggs, Enneagram, et cetera, uh, look from The inside out. So how you see the world, how to then bring this knowledge into your marketing, as I [00:06:00] say, always bring more of you to your marketing. Um, but we need to actually figure out what is more of me.

And so that's what this assessment and, and the work with fascinate helps us understand, well, this is more of me. So now let me bring more of that into our marketing. Both Louise and I share our assessment results. And so that kind of gives you some information about how, uh, the world sees me and the world sees Louise and how we actually live that in our businesses and much, much more.

So have a listen, and if you crave more and want to learn more about these seven fascinate languages and have heartfelt conversations in a safe haven, then join us on February 7th, uh, have a look at humane. marketing, uh, forward slash workshop. So let's dive in right now. Hi, Louise. [00:07:00] So good to hang out with you.

Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. I'm so excited to be able to connect with you again. As always. It's always a great conversation. Yeah. And we, we did some prepping for this one because we're also collaborating on another collab workshop. And I'm really, really excited to have you on February 7th for the workshop that we do together around February 7th.

You know, standing out authentically, but this is kind of like a teaser, uh, of this, uh, one on an hour and a half workshop. Um, but we're not just teasing. We're always giving great value as well. Right. For people who, who are, um, valued listeners, they, they know this about us and me. So I look forward to dig in.

I was thinking maybe you can start with, um, you know, how you. Your story and how you moved [00:08:00] out of corporate, I was gonna say America, but corporate Canada. . How you moved corporate Canada, outta corporate Canada and then as, as a marketer, and then started your own business and, and then realized. Oh, okay.

This is a different ball game. I have to now, you know, put myself out there and I have to sell myself and I still want to do it authentically. So, yeah, take us there. Tell us that story. How that evolved. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I spent. 20 years in corporate marketing and, you know, my last role as a, as a marketing leader, building marketing teams and functions and strategic, you know, making them a strategic function.

And so it was very demanding. Um, I loved the work that I did. I loved, um, the learning that I got from all of those 20 years in, um, you know, developing myself as a marketer. And then in 2019, um, I [00:09:00] was, my, my role was eliminated and I was packaged and as part of a reorg, um, and then COVID hit and, you know, my initial thoughts were jump right back in and, you know, and, and get on that hamster wheel again.

And when COVID hit, I had an opportunity to really sit back and kind of go, what do I really love? What would I love and instead of. Thinking that I need to do this. I mean, it was a single mom. I, you know, when my kids are older at the time, they're still, you know, what I call on my payroll because we're always supporting our kids.

But, you know, I also had an opportunity at that time to stop and really reflect. And for me. Being authentic was something that I really struggled with. I'm an HSP, and in a fast moving corporate environment, there isn't always room, uh, for us. It's not always understood. Um, and so I, you know, I I tended to kind of push all of [00:10:00] that aside.

Um, and when I had that opportunity to stop, I realized, you know, I really want to take everything I've learned over the last 20 years and bring back. I should mention before I spent 20 years in corporate. I had my own business. I was an entrepreneur for 15 years. Prior to jumping into corporate. And so there was a part of my heart that was like, I can help people, but I want to do it in a way that feels authentic to me.

I need to honor that part of myself. And so I embarked on this journey to say, well, where do I go from here? I know a lot of things I've built brands. I've built, you know, marketing teams and, um, and I love so many different aspects of it, but how do I distill that down? To me, you know, going from a team of 15 people to one.

And so there was a part of me that was like, how do I even talk about who I am and how I'm different because as a marketer, you know, you do a lot for other people and you're [00:11:00] building on this communication. But I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so that felt like, you know, the cobbler's got no shoes scenario where I, you know, I didn't know how to talk about how I was different.

And so I embarked on this self, you know, this journey to try to self discovery. And then I stumbled upon, uh, fascinate. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm a junkie of all of the Myers Briggs and StrengthsFinders and Enneagram, like I've done them all and I love them because they've helped me understand who I am from the inside out.

But what I loved about Fascinate when I took the test was that it's an outside in perspective. It's how the world sees me when I'm at my best. And when I took it, it I had an aha moment because it helps you understand the languages that you speak when you're in that flow state and you're excited and you're energized like you and I are doing right now.

Um, I [00:12:00] am a passion person. So I speak the language of communication and connection. Um, but I'm also. A very, you know, 1 minute, I can be very in tune with somebody in the next minute. I can be a hermit. I can be this very quiet person who's always analyzing a situation. And I always felt that there was something wrong with me.

Maybe there's something broken about me that I'm these opposite ends of the spectrum. And as it turns out, it's actually just who I am. And so when I learned that this is who I am, and it's actually my superpower. I was able to kind of start leaning into that a little bit more, not a little bit, a lot more.

And I embraced it to the fact, to the point where, you know, the anthem that I created for myself is my guiding, is my guidepost. I, it helps me now distinguish myself and, and lean in and just embrace that I'm different and I'm okay with that now. You know, it was, it helped me understand and [00:13:00] embrace that, that difference.

And so now I've incorporated that and it's part of what I do because I, I believe so strongly in, um, giving me the language, giving me the words that I could confidently feel like, yeah, this is really me. And here's how it's me. This is how it really is me. So it's going to be, I feel, yeah, I feel so obviously, you know, with marketing, like we're human and this is very aligned with, with what we're doing here.

And And was it also in, in the COVID years that you, uh, came across the Marketing Like a Human program? I remember you reached out to me. I'm like, Oh, a fellow marketer. That is so great that other marketers are interested in, in that work. Was it during that time as well? 100 percent because as I was trying to discover, you know, there has to be a better way.

I mean, I was in financial services and I still work in financial services in what I do now on my own, but I get to choose and I [00:14:00] work very purpose driven mission centered businesses. Um, that became really important to me and I didn't really know anybody else. Who felt that way about marketing. It's like, we do really good things and there's, there's a need for what we do.

And there's a love of. Building strong brands that are authentic, but I was really searching for a community and a group that felt the same way that I did. And so my research led me to you, um, and you know, I bought your first book and I did your program and I was like, okay, I want to embrace and learn everything there is to know about what's been in my heart, but I haven't really, I've felt like this lone wolf in a sea of, you know, marketers who are all about the bottom line and let's.

You know, what are the sales targets and everything? And to me, it didn't feel, that's not me. That doesn't feel like who I am. I care about, you know, doing good work. And I care [00:15:00] about making, you know, achieving results, but it's not what's driving me. What's driving me is how do we do good in the world? And how do we make it?

A better place through what we know as marketers. Yeah. I feel like you're a really good poster child for marketing. Like we're human because I mean, really like, you know, 2019 we're now in 2024. That is a. A very short framework for launching a business. And so it just shows me that you gave yourself that deep reflection.

And yes, probably the first or two first two years were a bit slow. Right. It's like, okay, who am I? How am I different? How can I be authentic and yet stand out? But. You gave yourself that time and invested in finding out who you are, and now you're bringing that to the table and look at you now, you have a thriving business.

I mean, it really shows that [00:16:00] slow and deep really, really works. And I think that's what we want to talk about here a little bit. Like, what, what, you know, why would we even have. Pay attention to, uh, a workshop that's called, um, stand out authentically, right? Most people would just want to stand out, you know, bottom line.

It's like, okay, I want to stand out, but we're talking here about standing out and being authentic and being different. So why does that matter to us? And I guess, and also to our clients, why does that matter so much? Yeah, that's a, it's such a great, it's such a great reflection, you know, because for, for most of my career, I did what I thought people wanted from me, you know, and I ignored and pushed down what I was actually thinking or feeling, um, because my value, I thought my value.

Was in [00:17:00] what I do for others and the results that I give, but what I had the opportunity to reflect through covid was and do that deeper dive on myself is to understand that that that that was based and coming from a place of fear, not love. And when I've learned to love myself and take that time to sort of say, like, what matters to me, I feel there's this multiplication where I've lived this life that was divided between who I am and what I do.

And when I was, when I embraced. Bringing all of that together and authentically being who I am in what I do and what I do. Um, I'm, I'm multiplying. I've gone from being divided to multiply where one plus one now equals three for me and the value that I feel like I add. And I'm attracting people who are more like me or who appreciate what I bring to the table.

So [00:18:00] yes, we can all have the same skills. But the satisfaction and the, and the joy that I get from working with somebody who appreciates that authenticity that I bring to the table and sometimes a bit of woo, and sometimes it's a lot of logic and information, and my ability to see a light at the end of the tunnel and get us across the finish line, but I'm doing it with a deeper connection.

And so there's just this, I don't know this inner calmness that I have of, of. Feeling like I, by bringing all of who I am to the table, I'm detracting those that don't care about that, which is great. You know, there is somebody out there who is in alignment with that person, but for the person who cares about.

That authenticity and the purpose and the why we do what we do, I feel a greater amount of joy. And so my work doesn't feel like work. It's just [00:19:00] making an impact and doing it in a way that just is in alignment with who I am in my soul. Yeah. I think you just described the definition of a humane business that, that it really.

That's what it is for me. It's like, yes, it's a business, but it's a business that is aligned with who you are. And so it doesn't feel like work. And at the same time, it feels very joyful to work with clients and, and, you know, do create change. And you, you mentioned that inner calm or inner peace. I think that is such a big part of it.

Um, And it's, it's underestimated, like it's undervalued. I feel like, you know, we, we go out there and, and I, I know that a lot of people are like, well, what I need is tactics. What I need is, you know, learn how to be on LinkedIn and publish on LinkedIn. Yes, you need that. As well, what you need first is this, you know, [00:20:00] understand who you are, uh, your values, how you're wired so that you can then come to whatever place you choose to be with this inner, inner peace.

And yeah, so let's go back to the, the, this, um, work with fascinate, right? Because that's what we're going to be talking about in the, in the workshop. Um, so tell us a little bit about. You mentioned it's kind of one of the assessments that, um, tells you how the world sees you rather than some of the other assessments like Myers Briggs Enneagram, um, where it comes from how you see the world.

Right. So how is this one different and how maybe you can also, uh, share a little bit about Sally, uh, Hogshead who created this whole work and how did you go about finding all of this out? Like, I'm curious about that. Yeah, you know what? It's, it's, um, it's really quite brilliant. So as a marketer, you [00:21:00] know, finding the words and the nuances of how you communicate became a fascination with me, especially because as a child, you know, I was really Um, I was very introverted and, and, um, you know, as an HSP, I didn't, I learned to wall off how I felt and how I communicated, but it also became a fascination for me in my career, you know, going into marketing, um, was something for me that I needed to do for others, what I really struggled to do for myself and.

The outside in perspective, when you're with Sally, what I learned, um, as I did my research, um, once I did the test and I was so fascinated by my, by my own results, I dug a little bit deeper and understood that, you know, so Sally was a marketer is a marketer and at heart, she was a very, very successful advertising writer.

By the time she was 27, she had, you know, [00:22:00] she, she was one of the most decorated. Advertising writers working with some of the largest corporate brands, and she became really interested in understanding what makes brands so fascinating. It's not the amount of money that they spend. So she undertook to do this research, hired a research company, and they studied hundreds of thousands of brands globally to understand what makes them fascinating.

What one brand more fascinating than another. And she Still that together through all this research, they distilled this down to seven languages. And I think it was in a conversation with her husband at the time who said, you know, what if we were able to do this for individuals? What if we were helped?

We were able to help people understand leveraging what makes brands fascinating. What if we were able to make them understand what makes them fascinating? And when you fascinate somebody in a world that's filled with, you know, distractions, if you think about. How much time you have to capture someone's [00:23:00] attention.

It used to be nine seconds. I think it might be down to three, you know, or two and a half. Yeah. And so if you're going, but when you fascinate somebody, you know, between. Competition. If you're in a business and you've got to get someone's attention, you're trying to get a prospect's attention in a world where commoditization, which is, you know, everything is the same.

Think of toilet paper. You go for the cheap. It's a race to the bottom from a price perspective. It's not about value. And then you've got the distractions, how do you get someone's attention? Well, you get their attention by fascinating them. And when they're fascinated, if you think about the times when you're fascinated by something, everything else falls off the planet, you know, and you're totally zoned in and you're focused.

And that's what the art of fascination is. But when you can't fake it, This is something you can't fake till you make it right it's, it's innate in you and everybody has one of these. [00:24:00] You know, we all speak these seven languages of the fascinate, um, system or the languages. We all speak them all, but there's two languages and one in particular that when you're speaking that language, you're like in this zone of, I could riff on this all day.

I'm in my zone of genius for some people, that's the language of power. And confidence and they come in a room and they just command the room and they, they are the decision makers. And for someone else, it might be about trust and loyalty. They might speak the language of trust, which is that loyal person that, you know, you can always count on others.

It's the language of listening and you're that quiet person in the room who's paying attention and people might not think that you're that Even there, like, you know, you're not paying attention and then you drop this bomb of, well, what about this? Because you're analyzing and paying attention to the whole room.

And so whatever language you speak, when you're able to speak [00:25:00] that language, you will fascinate those who connect with you on that level. So it creates this deeper connection with people. And by virtue of understanding how you fascinate somebody, Bye. It allows you to be more of who you are, because, you know, you're not trying to be somebody else.

You can have the same skills and have gone to the same school, um, and come out, you know, two writers who are equally skilled, but one is going to have a language that is. Is going to connect more deeply with somebody and don't we all want to have a world where we're connecting deeply with people that we get to engage with on a daily basis.

So fascinating allows us to do that. Um, and I was so fascinated by it that I actually got certified. Um, because I said, this is part of my toolbox at the time. I was already working on brands and helping businesses build their, their [00:26:00] brands. And for me, being able to bring that to the individual that I work with in a, in a company, it's like, let's understand your language and the language of the people in your team, because.

It also helps you create this balance on your team of, you know, you might have somebody who's a really, really good person, really skilled, but if they're in a role where they're not able to speak their language, they might feel like they're in quicksand. You know, alert is the language of details. And for some people that lights them up, the ability to.

Cross T's and dot I's and think about the future and think about risk mitigation. For others, it makes them want to gouge their eyeballs out, right? And if you're someone who is in a role that you're passion driven and you need those connections and relationships, but your role requires you to be doing this work that is what we call your, your dormant advantage, your least Engaging and natural language, [00:27:00] you're going to feel like you're, you're in quicksand and you're going to, it's, it's a drains your energy.

So why not understand and learn the language that you speak that resonates with other people at the same time. It's going to attract those people to you and you're going to just, you know, you're going to be living a life that feels like you're in a well spring rather than in quicksand. Yeah, totally.

Well, as we were preparing for, for the workshop and the podcast, I went back to the, to my tests and I, uh, found out that I first took it in 2014 and back then I was the maverick and I think it was innovation and power. And so, so that was kind of like my first experience with Fascinate and I, and I remember being completely surprised and really realizing.

How people see you differently sometimes than you see yourself, [00:28:00] um, because if you look at all the other, um, kind of assessments, the Enneagram and the Myers Briggs, um, so I'm very introverted and very calm and, you know, quiet and, and then I got this word that says power, the maverick. I'm like, what, what is this?

Right? This is completely different. And. And yet when I was talking to people, they're like, yeah, that's, that's how we see you. We see you as someone who creates new things and leads a new way. And I'm like, I guess, yeah, I like doing that. Right. I just, I needed to kind of make peace with this idea of power and understanding it as something that I can do quietly.

Right. Power doesn't need to be loud. It just needs to be kind of like to me, it's a quiet presence, but that somehow still has the ability to lead. [00:29:00] So I remember that for me, that was life changing and just really accepting that role and saying, okay, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, then I'll step into that role and, and kind of come out of the.

The shadow, uh, maybe a little bit as well. So, um, it's funny that you mentioned power because I have almost the opposite. So power is my dormant advantage, but the story about how I named my company, when I started the company, I worked with this brilliant person, um, who I had worked with. For years in my corporate role to help me come up with a name for my business.

Together we came up because I wanted my whole premise was I want to be able to empower my. clients to be better marketers and to do it their way, you know, to find a path that is right for you. You don't have to follow the trends. And so we came up with wheeled marketing, put the power [00:30:00] of marketing in your hands.

It's not a bad name, but I didn't do anything. I sat on it for a year and this was all before I knew fascinated, didn't know anything about fascinating, but I sat on it for a year. It didn't design a logo. Didn't didn't build a website. Didn't do anything with the name because there was something in my heart that was like, it doesn't feel right.

It doesn't feel right. And I did my fascinate. Test. And in my fascinate test, you know, my number one language is passion, which is the language of relationships and connection and intuitiveness and my, and I'll bet, you know, then you've got this waiting of all of seven languages will my dormant, which is my least powerful, um, or effective communication is power.

And. I, and I really struggled with this because power, I was a leader in my, in my role for eight and a half years in my last role. I'm like, but I am a leader. [00:31:00] And then I realized power is about that natural ability to come in and dominate a room. And whether you do it quietly or loudly and, you know, making decisions quickly and, and I realized the reason I had been struggling with wield wield is a word that.

Is all about power and it didn't sit well in my heart, but I didn't understand why until I did fascinate and as a result of that, I'm like, that's not the name of my company. Then that can't be the name of my business. And so I really did some soul searching and digging and wanted to really bring that that as an HSP and an introvert myself, I wanted to bring that light that shines inside of us and allow people to bring that out.

And so I changed the name of my company to the firefly. Effect because the firefly is that is that beautiful little glow that sits inside everybody and the firefly effect because I wanted. To simulate the [00:32:00] butterfly effect where, you know, one little firefly can't maybe doesn't make a big difference, but imagine a whole field of fireflies and how beautiful is that?

And so it's, it's about the culmination of bringing, bringing joy and bringing a voice. To everybody and doing it in their own authentic way. So that's where the firefly came from. And I have fascinated to some degree to thank for that. Yeah, but that's what it does for for 1, right? It really helps us with, uh, these words that we can then bring into our marketing.

Because like I say in marketing, like we're human because we want to bring more of us to our marketing. So when people ask me, well, how do we learn to be authentic in marketing? Well, there's not like a seven step list, uh, where you can learn that it's, it's going into that deeper inner work. And probably part of it is, is, um, yeah, learning more about these seven languages and then bringing.

More of that language [00:33:00] into your messaging. And, um, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about in this workshop on February 7th. So if you're listening to this and this resonates, we'd love for you to join us. Then you can go to the link humane. marketing forward slash workshop and sign up there. Um, I want to wrap up with a question that I feel like is really timely.

Because we're talking about authenticity, right? In a time where AI has just developed like crazy over the last, let's say, 9 months. And we know as a fact, it's not going anywhere. Like, well, it's not leaving anytime soon. It's definitely going to develop. So how does something like, Oh, Knowing deeply who we are and, uh, having this language that helps us stand out.

How does that help us in a time, um, where, you know, everyone else is using AI and chat GPT. [00:34:00] How can we tap into that system more to, um, yeah, feel like we're being authentic and standing up. That's such a great question. And, you know, building authentic brands is such a big part of what I do. And, um, and, and I'll be honest, I have leveraged AI.

I've wanted to learn. I'm like, I need to understand. What everything, you know, all the hype, I need to understand, you know, so that we're not left behind, but I don't use AI to do my writing. I don't use AI to, um, put words in my mouth. What I use AI for, frankly, is to. Um, is to help me do what I don't do as well.

So for instance, dice, you know, distilling when I have a great conversation with a client, I can record it on my otter, put it into AI. And help have AI help distill that [00:35:00] down to what are those key points so I can be more present and not feel like I have to take a million notes in a conversation because I'm capturing it and I'm going to leverage AI to help me create, you know, what are these talking points that I need to make sure that I'm including in our, you know, in the brand work or, or.

Whatever work I'm I'm working on for that client. So I think there is a way to find out, you know, to leverage the tools that are at our disposal. And I is another tool. The challenges when you're looking at somebody. At somebody's work, it's going to become more evident. In time, and I, you know, that. It's a generate like that.

It doesn't feel authentic. It's going to A. I is only pulling from what's already out in the Internet, right? It's not creating something that's from your heart. And so it comes down, I think, to trusting yourself and feeling confident that you're not. It's [00:36:00] not about FOMO. It's not about, um. Looking at, looking around the room and seeing, you know, what am I missing out on?

I need to jump on this trend. I need to jump on this trend. I need to be on social media and posting six times a week or five times a week. I don't, I, that I've realized that that for me is, you know, is leveraging what I feel confident and know in my heart based on my languages that I speak, how I'm going to fascinate someone.

And trusting that process, I'm still going to leverage and look at it as a tool in my toolbox for myself. And then you have to be discerning when you're looking at other people and trust that the right people are going to find you because authenticity. It's an untapped or an unnamed or a, you know, it's a language that we speak.

And when you're being authentic, people [00:37:00] feel that they feel the vulnerability. They feel, they feel the connection. Um, and I think you just have to trust that, that, that that's going to. You know, leverage the tools where they make sense, be, be discerning. And, um, because AI, you're right. AI is not going anywhere.

So yeah, I'm finding a way to make it, to bring it into what I need in a way that feels in alignment with my own values, right? I'm not going to use it to do all my writing because it doesn't feel authentic. And, and it would feel disingenuous for me to leverage AI and have it write everything I need to write for myself.

Yeah, there's, there's. Something to be said about written text. That's what we use it for or what it's used for right now. But, um, what I feel like this work with Fascinate and knowing your languages also helps us become more [00:38:00] authentic, right? Because we then really tap into who we truly are and embrace that.

Side of us where before we're just kind of pulled into every direction. Oh, I should, you know, kind of do whatever selling like they're doing it. And then I'm doing a little bit of this and and it's, it's helping us understand. Oh. No, there, you know, I can really truly be by, be myself, um, when you show up with clients and when you kind of step into that, uh, true version of yourself, I feel like the writing, okay, that's part of it, but it also just helps with the human and how you're going to show up with your clients, right?

There are so many of my clients that at the beginning of. A workshop that I would have done with them and they get their assessment and they're like, well, it says that I'm, you know, I'm this, but I'm not this, you know, my one person's [00:39:00] passion was her dormant. And she's like, the name of my company is literally passion, you know, consulting or something.

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And I said, we went through the process and what I, what she understood was it doesn't mean you're not passionate. And it doesn't, you know, we have a preconceived notion of what these words mean, but when we unpack it, which we do, we unpack it all in, in the, in the workshops that we do, you learn that and you, and we dive into the stories of your life where you start to see that pattern.

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Of where this has been true. So it's not just words on a page. It actually are. We go back and we look and validate. And at the same time, it helps to provide this beacon for you. We create an anthem. Um, you know, that helps guide you and helps explain to people what you do in a really short like two words.

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My anthem. After going through this process is illuminating visions and it, and for me, [00:40:00] it's what it's in my e signature. It's everywhere, but it, it has become. When I looked at my past, what lights me up and what excites me are these moments when I've been able to bring somebody else. You know, we have an idea.

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We bring it to life. We launch a brand. We've, we launch a new product. We, so those are the things like that. Innovation is my why. The passion is, is the, is the, what I, you know, what I do and how I do that is by listening. It's my mystique. It's the listening. So when I understood that about myself, now it helps me to choose and to be selective about what I do going forward.

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I call it. A bit of a, it's a warm hug and a kick in the gut all at the same time, because it's like, yeah, this is who I am. And it becomes my guide to make sure that I stay on my path and I don't get distracted by these shiny objects along the way. So yeah. And the, and the moments in that I've seen people's, like the lights go on and kind of go.[00:41:00]

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Oh, you mean this is already who I am. And for some people saying those words feels very egotistical at first, because it's like, well, I can't say that about myself that. And then when we dive in deeper, it's like, but it's already how the world sees you. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the power.

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Right. It's like. Oh, but I'm very humble. You know, I grew up very in, in this humble environment. I'm like, ha, I can't say that . But, um, it's like, well, yeah. You know, it's like not me. It's to other people who are seeing it that way. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and that's why I feel like truly yes, ai, you know, is, is part of our path and the direction we're going.

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And I, I actually feel. There's a very positive side to AI and I'll be writing about that in the, in the business like we're human book, because I do feel like creates more spaciousness for actually [00:42:00] being human and that's part of this. Right? It's like, well, because we have AI for the mundane things, we can then focus on.

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Actually spending time on figuring out. Well, what is my fascinate language? How can I tap into that and be real? Because that's what we care about is having real conversations with real humans and taking the time to to be human. So I feel like there's a world possible with both being very authentic. And having AI, uh, as, as the, as a tool, like you said, I agree.

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I think when we have the confidence that, you know, who you are, the tools and all of these other distractions become just that it's a tool that you can add to your toolbox, learn how to use it in a way that feels. Authentic to you that helps you in your business that, um, you know, [00:43:00] saves time, saves energies, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm definitely in that camp where it is a tool and it's a tool that when we use it well, to your point, you end up with this freedom of time.

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Because something that might've taken me, you know, an hour and a half to distill and go through, I can get it done in 10 minutes now. Right. I can get to that point where I needed to get to in 10 minutes. And then I still apply who I am as an individual, my authentic self to bring that spin or the, you know, the, the, the necessary kind of finishing touches or whatever you want to call it so that it isn't just a cut and paste.

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You know, it's helping me think of it. I'm thinking of it as another virtual assistant. I actually think it will help a lot of small businesses, especially because, you know, you can do the roles of a number of different people. [00:44:00] So, yeah, I'm so excited. I, uh, um, I really am also excited about this workshop that we have coming up.

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And what I also feel like we always do well in these collab workshops is that there's part teaching, you know, you're going to share all of your wisdom about the fascinate system. And we also always create space for being human and having these. Exchanges in the breakout rooms. And I think that's really also a big part of the learning, right?

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It's like, well, actually apply this now and have a conversation about how you are different or how do you feel you're different. So really, really looking forward to that, um, February 7th. Embodiment of of it and that collaboration that that you foster in the humane marketing circle is, is really brilliant because it allows people to take their take your guard down.[00:45:00]

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This is a, you know, this is a real humane group of people who are all gathered because we have a very, um, similar approach. To life, you know, not just work, but life. And this is one aspect of it that, um, it's freeing. It's, um, you know, it is, it is really like giving yourself permission to be more of who you are.

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And Sally has this theme that runs throughout that I absolutely love, which is different is better than better, you know, when you think about it. You already, you know, be more of who you already are, because that's what's going to make you feel good. And it's what's going to attract the people who appreciate that beauty that you bring to the world and that uniqueness.

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Um, and, you know, it's like, give yourself permission to be that person. So. Can't wait. Thank you so much for sharing here on the podcast. And again, if you're listening to this before February 7th, [00:46:00] definitely sign up and we look forward to seeing you there and we'll look forward to it. Thank you for having me.

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I appreciate it. Thank you, Louise. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you got some great value from this episode. Make sure to find out more about Louise and her work at FireflyEffect. ca. And of course, for even more value, join us for the workshop on February 7th at humane. marketing forward slash workshop.

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The suggested price is 27. But you can also just make a donation and if you like the people and style of this gathering, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? That's how we roll. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane.

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marketing forward slash H M 1 8 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free [00:47:00] offers, the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books. Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

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We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]

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