For a full transcript of this episode, . The episode today is somewhat of a follow-on to the show with Lauren Vela, which was about employer inertia. If we’re talking about inertia, though, we’d be remiss not to get a little circumspect about the whole affair and subject some other stakeholders to our microscope. One of these stakeholders is EBCs (employee benefit consultants), practice leads, and brokers, which AJ Loiacono talked about in to some extent; so we can check that box at least for now. That leaves TPAs (third-party administrators), ASOs (administrative services onlys), and health plans. And this hotbed of inertia is what I talk about today with Elizabeth Mitchell from PBGH, the Purchaser Business Group on Health. Similar to earlier shows, one disclaimer is that I am using the TPA and ASO terms sort of interchangeably here. Again, TPA is third-party administrator, and ASO is administrative services only, which is generally the term used when an insurance carrier offers services to a plan sponsor, like a self-insured employer. And these services don’t include insurance, because … self-insured. So, the services are administrative only. One point to make clear before we dive in, this conversation is not about these carriers/payers/health plans in general and what they may or may not be doing. This conversation is very specifically focused on how well are those entities helping jumbo employers deploy their health benefits. And first we talk about the role of a TPA or ASO, both in terms of what a jumbo employer might want them to be doing versus what they are often actually doing. Spoiler alert: What they are often actually doing is acting like a full-on health plan and charging as such, even if the health plan part is not what the self-insured employer wants or needs, especially when somebody figures out exactly how much additional is getting charged for those ancillary health plan services. Listen to the show with Justin Leader () for a bead on just a piece of the how much additional that gets baked into the weekly claims wires many self-insured employers get. Bottom line, right now, there’s a gap in the market. What is needed are indie TPAs who are effective and efficient and not owned by a health plan because, if history is any predictor of the future, the second the TPA gets owned by a health plan, the TPA sort of ceases to be a TPA and becomes a health plan—with all the attendant bells and whistles that, a lot of times, an employer can’t opt out of. And also, the whole not sharing data becomes a thing, both cost data and also quality data. Now, just because there’s a gap in the market, does that mean all jumbo employers are paralyzed into inertia? Well, it makes it harder, for sure. But it’s also a reason to start figuring out how to solve for a problem when it has as many zeros at the end of it as this problem has. Have you seen these lawsuits popping up all over the place and just the numbers that are involved? Aramark’s lawsuit against Aetna is just one example. Not to single out just this one, but in the interest of time, let’s talk about this one. Aramark, a big employer, alleged that since 2018, Aetna has taken more than $200 million from it to pay for medical services that should not have been paid out and retains millions of dollars in undisclosed fees. Mark Flores about this one the other day. Also, there was that Cigna lawsuit where an electrician’s union health plan was surprised to learn that the fees charged by Cigna had risen from around $550,000 in 2016 to $2.6 million in 2019. That was from a New York Times . For more on stuff like this, follow Doug Aldeen and/or Chris Deacon on LinkedIn. They’re a great resource. I’d also listen to the “Who’s Suing Who?” episode with Chris Deacon, which was . Because of all of this, the conversation today with Elizabeth Mitchell pretty quickly gets into the shift toward direct contracting between employers and providers to improve access quality and outcomes. If you can’t beat them, get ruthlessly practical is my takeaway. I have to say, I truly admire some of these HR folks and their leadership willing to do what it takes on behalf of protecting the people that work for them. Now, important side note: There are certainly some health plans at least trying here, so I don’t want to imply otherwise. There are some interesting initiatives that are afoot at, I’m gonna say, usually regional health plans. Elizabeth Mitchell has talked about some of these and made this clear also elsewhere. Lastly, if you aren’t familiar with the CAA, which comes up in the episode today, there’s a show () on the Consolidated Appropriations Act, which is what CAA stands for. Elizabeth Mitchell, my guest today, currently serves as the president and CEO of the Purchaser Business Group on Health. PBGH members are really focused on innovating and implementing change. We talk about some of this innovation and implementation on the show today, and it is very inspiring. Stay tuned on this topic, given just the absolute need for TPA services like we discuss in the show that follows, and given the smart, innovative, action-oriented people who are affected—1 plus 1 equals … yeah. Stay tuned. Very, very lastly, I just want to give a shout-out and thanks to Brad Brockbank for posing some great questions, which I pretty much turned around and asked Elizabeth Mitchell in this healthcare podcast. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and . You can learn more at and by connecting with Elizabeth on . You can also watch a on success with direct contracting.   Elizabeth Mitchell, president and CEO of the Purchaser Business Group on Health (PBGH), supports the implementation of PBGH’s mission of high-quality, affordable, and equitable healthcare. She leads PBGH in mobilizing healthcare purchasers, elevating the role and impact of primary care, and creating functional healthcare markets to support high-quality affordable care, achieving measurable impacts. Elizabeth leverages her extensive experience in working with healthcare purchasers, providers, policymakers, and payers to improve healthcare quality and cost. She previously served as senior vice president for healthcare and community health transformation at Blue Shield of California, during which time she designed Blue Shield’s strategy for transforming practice, payment, and community health. Elizabeth also served as the president and CEO of the Network for Regional Healthcare Improvement (NRHI), a network of regional quality improvement and measurement organizations. She also served as CEO of Maine’s business coalition on health, worked within an integrated delivery system, and was elected to the Maine State Legislature, serving as a state representative and chair of the Health and Human Services Committee. Elizabeth served as vice chairperson of the US Department of Health and Human Services Physician-Focused Payment Model Technical Advisory Committee, board and executive committee member of the National Quality Forum (NQF), member of the National Academy of Medicine’s “Vital Signs” Study Committee on core metrics, and a Guiding Committee member for the Health Care Payment Learning & Action Network. She now serves as a board member of California’s Office of Healthcare Affordability. Elizabeth holds a degree in religion from Reed College and studied social policy at the London School of Economics.   06:48 What is the overarching context for health plans in healthcare purchasing? 09:00 with Olivia Webb. 11:44 Why is it important to reestablish a connection between the people paying for care and people providing care? 14:07 What are the needs of a self-insured employer when managing employee benefits? 19:41 Is it doable for employers to set their own contracts? 22:11 Is transparency presumed? 23:25 Will the new transparency upon us actually expose wasted expense? 27:45 “This is not about individual bad actors. … The systems … that is not aligned.” 29:32 Are there providers who want to work directly with employers? 32:46 Why is it important that incentives need to be aligned? 34:25 Why is the quality of care even more important than transparency? 36:29 with Rik Renard. 38:08 What’s missing from the conversation on changing health plans?   You can learn more at and by connecting with Elizabeth on . You can also watch a on success with direct contracting.   @lizzymitch2 of @PBGHealth discusses #TPA and #healthplan inertia on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . I’m gonna encore this episode with David Scheinker, PhD, for several reasons; but here’s a big one: Why are we as an industry not doing what David Scheinker suggests in this episode? Why are we not doing, I don’t know, kinds of logical things to reduce admin burden in this country when everyone agrees admin burden is a problem? But let me back up for a moment for context. Two things happened since this show originally aired. One is that I was invited to a fireside chat by the Advisory Board to talk with Abby Burns, one of the amazing hosts over at Radio Advisory; and we talked about value in the healthcare industry. And if you define value as benefit divided by costs, and you can cut costs—like cut admin burden costs in half—then you have created some really nice communal value, which we talked about at length during that aforementioned fireside chat. Here’s the other thing that happened since this show originally aired. I read the book by Mike Leavitt, mainly because Steve Schutzer, MD, kept talking about it. The title of the book is . Maybe I will do a book report about this at some point, but let me share a couple of key quotes just to get the party started here. Mike Leavitt wrote, “A diverse alliance, well led and well managed, can bring resources to bear on a problem that no organization can match—even the largest of organizations. The synergy of resources—from financial to intellectual—can deal effectively with a wide range of issues confounding organizations today.” I found that very interesting. Here’s the second quote, which deals with what the top reason is that such diverse alliances may wish to hook up. “[It’s] a common pain: A shared problem that motivates people and groups to work together in ways that could otherwise seem counterintuitive.” Hmm … so, back to administrative burden. Let’s review the facts that David Scheinker, PhD, shares in the interview that follows. He says any given transaction will cost provider organizations 14% of the total transaction costs to manage to get paid. Yes, it costs 14% of a transaction merely to get paid for the transaction. This is a big reason why both Peter Hayes, in the episode with him (), and also Marshall Allen () talk about for why cash prices can be a whole lot less than going through insurance prices because you can skip a lot of insurance burden. Now, on the payer side, add to that 14% an additional 5% to 15% to pay said transaction. That 30% of healthcare is waste stat that keeps getting tossed around. Listen to the show with Will Shrank, MD () for more on that. But, yeah … here’s 20% to 30% of every transaction that is waste. And we haven’t even gotten into redundant care or inappropriate back surgery yet. Our industry spends up to 30% of our money just trying to get paid and pay. Here’s a case study for you. You know who has already solved for this whole “it’s really hard to get paid and pay” dilemma? Derivative traders. It used to cost derivative traders $100,000 to do a contract, any given contract. And they worked together and got this down to $5000 by doing some of the stuff that David Scheinker talks about in the show. And, I don’t know, I feel like the healthcare industry could also do this, too, if they wanted to. But there are a whole bunch of reasons why our industry cannot seem to get together and be as ruthlessly practical as derivative traders—or banks, who have figured out how to work together to process credit cards to reduce their own common pain. Here are but a few of the reasons, potentially, why the healthcare industry doesn’t get together to reduce administrative burden in some of the ways that Dr. Scheinker talks about. 1. Some organizations actually make a lot of money off of that transactional waste. As but one example—and not to just pick on one, but we don’t have all day—how about some RCM (revenue cycle management) companies who may or may not be owned by the same vertically integrated stacks as the payers themselves? As I have said any number of times, one person’s—or potentially an entire country’s, as the case may be—one party’s waste, is somebody else’s honeypot; and I am not sure if this is any exception. 2. Legacy technology and data systems and all the sunk costs therein 3. As Kaye Davis and Katrina Hubbard reminded me about the other day, there are some serious regulations in healthcare due to everybody being a vendor of CMS that adds a layer of regulatory complication to many collaborations. Also, state laws sometimes have an unintended side effect of making it tough to collaborate. Now, are there any precedents for this type of collaboration in the healthcare industry? Yeah, actually Surescripts, which, don’t forget, was created by an alliance of PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) who worked together because they all wanted to enable e-prescribing and needed a joint platform to do it. Look, I could say a lot about this one, but nonetheless, so much of what gets talked about in the show today with Dr. David Scheinker is very, very actionable. Just want to note that since David Scheinker was on the show, he and his team have done some major research over the past few years into ways that contracts can be standardized. If enough of you reach out and say that you’re interested, we, for sure, can have David come back on the show and discuss. David Scheinker, PhD, is a clinical professor of pediatrics. He’s the executive director of systems design and collaborative research at Stanford Children’s Health. He also founded and directs SURF Stanford Medicine. And with that, here is your original episode. Administrative costs in the United States have a bad rap. You don’t have to look too far to find an article about how there’s now, like, 10 administrators for every 1 physician in this country. Or 3 to 4 billing people for every physician. Or consider what Dan O’Neill was talking about in . He was talking about IPAs (independent physician associations) and other managed care entities. As Dan mentions, contracting with some of these IPAs is like an “I love 1990” flashback. The contracting process transpires via mail. Not email, mind you. Mail. Like, stick-a-stamp-on-the-envelope mail. So, in sum, there’s a lot of pretty well-founded complaining about administrative costs in this country. A lot of this administrative stuff is truly inefficient and a fantastical waste of time. So, here we are freaking out about staffing shortages, overlooking that doctors at the heights of their careers are spending some percentage of their time not counseling, treating, or diagnosing patients but twiddling their thumbs on hold with one insurance company or another slowly burning out by the inefficiency of it all. Or doing pajama time, and we all know that too much pajama time means also burnout on a silver platter. So then, let’s get granular here. If we’re trying to quantify admin costs, how you do that is to quantify how much each transaction costs. How much does it cost to send a bill and get paid for it? How much does it cost to file an appeal and a denial of a prior auth? Add all those transactions together and you get the full cost of the administrative burden. In this healthcare podcast, we’re digging into a about admin costs written by David Scheinker, PhD (my guest today); Barak Richman, PhD, JD; Arnold Milstein, MD, MPH; and Kevin Schulman, MD, MBA. I have the pleasure of speaking with David Scheinker, PhD (as I mentioned), who is the lead author on this paper. Just to underline a major takeaway from this conversation with Dr. David Scheinker, he reiterates a recommendation to eliminate a big proportion of administrative costs. I guess I should say spoiler alert here, but the major takeaway/recommendation is this: Standardize healthcare contracts between payers and providers. Every payer and every provider finds one contract template and uses it. I don’t mean one template per payer or per provider, although that probably would be a revelation in and of itself. But I mean that all payers use one basic provider contract. A couple of specifics here: The template that I’m referring to (and that Dr. David Scheinker is referring to) consists of parameters. What do I mean when I say parameters? Consider what Airbnb does when you’re looking for a place to stay, as an example. How many bedrooms (that’s a parameter)? How many bathrooms (that’s a parameter)? How many amenities (that’s a parameter)? After everybody picks their standard set of parameters, at that point, all parties can negotiate and come up with whatever they want for what is the price of an extra bedroom or whatever value you’re gonna assign to that parameter. Go nuts there, but from a data collection and analytic perspective and a getting paid perspective, it is way easier to do it that way—meaning it’s way easier to execute and report when all of the contracts use the same parameters. Also, you can build tech to do a lot of that because you don’t have to write algorithms with exponential variables. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and . You can learn more by connecting with David on and following him on .   David Scheinker, PhD, started his career as a research mathematician and switched to healthcare operations to work on an interdisciplinary team and have a more immediate impact. He is a clinical professor of pediatrics, the executive director of systems design and collaborative research at Stanford Children’s Health, and a member of the Clinical Excellence Research Center (CERC) at Stanford University. He founded and directs SURF Stanford Medicine, which brings together students and faculty from the university with physicians, nurses, and administrators from the hospitals. He studies clinical care delivery, hospital operations, sensor-based and algorithm-enabled telemedicine, the socioeconomic factors that shape healthcare, and healthcare policy.   10:39 What’s the quantitative administrative cost in an average transaction? 11:05 What’s the quantitative administrative cost in a healthcare transaction? 11:58 What does the healthcare billing and administration cost add to the US’s overall healthcare spend? 12:53 Is it possible to cut billing and administrative costs in healthcare? 14:17 “In some ways, the problem for healthcare should be simpler.” 15:30 What does the complexity of the current system look like in a doctor’s office? 18:42 How did David go about studying healthcare administrative costs? 21:34 “It doesn’t have to be simple; it should be standardized.” 24:50 What would be the pushback on standardizing contracts in healthcare? 25:43 Why is it possible to gain more value by losing customization in contracts? 27:20 “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” 27:41 “It’s much easier in healthcare to build something new than to change something that exists.” 30:47 What benefits does telemedicine have to cutting administrative costs? 32:17 What is another significant benefit of using standardized contracts? 33:26 Why haven’t standardized contracts become a common thing in the current healthcare system?   You can learn more by connecting with David on and following him on .   @David_Scheinker of @SURFStanfordMed discusses administrative burden on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . This conversation I am having with Dan Mendelson, my guest today, all started with a that he had written on LinkedIn considering how pharmacy benefits can or should be optimized within the broader context of value-based care. Total cost of care, value-based medical care, and pharmacy benefits—these worlds have to collide. There is just so much intertwined into all of this, which is why I pretty much immediately invited him to come back on the pod to discuss in greater detail. A few years ago, I heard a doctor say that practicing medicine without considering pharmacy is like getting to the 90 yard line, putting down the ball, and walking off the field. And, yeah … when a patient gets to a certain point in a whole lot of disease progressions, optimal medical therapy includes pharmacy. It’s a thing. Adherence is a thing. In fact, I saw a stat the other day that patients not taking their meds costs an estimated $3874 PEPY (per employee per year). Also, half of all hospital admits are caused by nonadherence. Those two stats, by the way, are from a on LinkedIn by Brian Bellware, who was recapping a video from Eric Bricker, MD. But also, as Barbara Wachsman () said on the show, half, I think she said, of all ER visits are due to patients not taking their meds right. Olivia Webb () was on the pod, if you want to go back and listen to that one, talking about how she spends hours every month trying to figure out how to navigate access issues to manage to get her Crohn’s disease drug. So, yeah … one underlying reason why a lot of this stuff happens is that pharmacy benefits are purchased and siloed a lot of times. In fact, I have yet to see, really, any mainstream contract wherein a PBM (pharmacy benefit manager) is held accountable in any way for downstream medical costs, which may be incurred because of suboptimal pharmacy benefit design, right? And there are so many examples of bad downstream medical impacts. I really like how Mark Fendrick, MD, put it in . He said benefits, including pharmacy benefits, are like peanut butter and jelly relative to enabling high-quality care. You gotta have both working in concert, like CMS or a plan sponsor just paid a ton of money to get a patient an organ transplant, and then the patient can’t afford their transplant meds, which aren’t on formulary and are really expensive, and therefore there’s organ rejection. This happens. Or a patient with uncontrolled diabetes with a huge co-pay for insulin. Doctor says, “Hey, you gotta take your insulin.” Patient says, “Can’t afford it.” Right? This makes no sense, and it’s shockingly common. I’m thinking right now of that young man who died in the Midwest because he could not get his asthma inhaler. It wasn’t on formulary. So, here’s the game plan. I talk with Dan about the five kind of vital considerations he had brought up in that aforementioned LinkedIn post when considering how pharmacy benefits can or should be optimized within the broader context of value-based care. Dan’s advice for the pharma industry is woven in here as much as his advice for EBCs (employee benefit consultants) and employers. I am sure that most of our listeners are going to be very familiar with Dan Mendelson, my guest today, and his work; but the quick background here is that he runs Morgan Health. The mission over there at Morgan Health is to drive innovation in employer-sponsored healthcare, and they do that by investing and working with their portfolio companies in the context of the 300,000 or so employees over at JPMorgan Chase. At the same time, Morgan Health also engages in policy discussions because, as Dan says, no one employer is going to control public policy. As a footnote here, I just will say that I actively seek out opportunities to listen to Dan Mendelson’s thoughts. He has spoken a lot and really eloquently and with great insight about setting up the economic models for healthcare, not sick care. Recently, actually, he was on a panel at the along with Natalie Davis; Yele Aluko, MD, MBA; and Henry Ting, MD. There are definitely insights to be gleaned. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and . You can learn more at the and follow Dan on .   Dan Mendelson is the chief executive officer of Morgan Health at JPMorgan Chase & Co. He oversees a business unit at JPMorgan Chase focused on accelerating the delivery of new care models that improve the quality, equity, and affordability of employer-sponsored healthcare. Mendelson was previously founder and CEO of Avalere Health, a healthcare advisory company based in Washington, DC. He also served as operating partner at Welsh Carson, a private equity firm. Before founding Avalere, Mendelson served as associate director for health at the Office of Management and Budget in the Clinton White House. Mendelson currently serves on the boards of Vera Whole Health and Champions Oncology (CSBR). He is also an adjunct professor at the Georgetown University McDonough School of Business. He previously served on the boards of Coventry Healthcare, HMS Holdings, Pharmerica, Partners in Primary Care, Centrexion, and Audacious Inquiry. Mendelson holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Oberlin College and a Master of Public Policy (MPP) from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.   04:50 How do we connect the dots between value-based care and pharmacy benefits? 07:43 Where do things need to go for employers in terms of drug spend integration? 08:42 How do we think about having a value-based component in the decision-making process? 09:44 How do we enable the necessary information to make proper decisions? 10:56 with Ashok Subramanian. 11:21 “Many payviders just haven’t gotten to pharmacy yet; they need to.” 14:14 Why do pharmaceutical companies need to be prepared to contract on the basis of value? 16:46 with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD. 17:36 with Kenny Cole, MD. 18:07 Why is it important to “let the market work”? 21:04 Why do we have cost sharing, and when does it not make sense to have that as a co-pay? 23:59 Why are evidence requirements good for everyone? 28:45 Why is pooling of risk important? 29:49 How do you pool risk without going to an insurance company? 32:03 What is Dan’s advice to hospitals? 33:30 “In a value-based world, buy and bill does not make sense.” 33:36 What is Dan’s advice to primary care doctors? 33:54 What is Dan’s advice to entrepreneurs and innovators?   You can learn more at the and follow Dan on .   @dnmendelson discusses #pharmacybenefits on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . I’ve been in a couple of meetings lately. In one case, a healthcare company came up with a strategy and deployed it; and the strategy didn’t go as planned. The other one, it did go as planned—it worked great. Of course, I’m coming in on the back end like a Monday morning quarterback here; but the plan that failed, I have to say, I wasn’t surprised. Had they asked me ahead of time, I would have told them to save their money because the plan was never gonna work, even though the strategy looked like kind of a straight line from here to there. Nor was I shocked by the success of the other plan, even though this one that triumphed had what looked like five extra steps and was slightly counterintuitive if you looked at it cold, without understanding the way the healthcare industry actually works. Here’s my point: It might feel like the healthcare industry is chaos monkey central and impossible to predict actions and reactions—and, for sure, there’s always unknowns and intersecting variables—but it’s not a complete black box. The trick is, as you know and I know, you gotta understand what other stakeholders are up to. You gotta get a bead on what they’re doing and what their incentives are because then you can better predict actions and potentially reactions. So, let me state the obvious (that’s why listeners tune in to this show as I just said, and it’s what we aim to shine a light on here at Relentless Health Value): the pushes and the pulls and the forces. What’s going on outside of the organizations or the silos that we work within day-to-day. Because if you’re looking to sell to, partner with, not be obstructed by [insert some stakeholder here], then it’s very vital to be keyed in on what they’re doing or what their customers are doing or what their customers’ vendors are doing. This show should feel like it gives you a measure of control (or at least that’s my hope) or a method to find the measure of control. And I hope you succeed. That’s why I continue to put out these shows. The RHV tribe members want the same thing I want—to fix the healthcare industry for patients and for members—so, thanks for being here and for making actionable the insights that you might find here. I have been so looking forward to doing a show with Ben Schwartz, MD, MBA, orthopedic surgeon and prolific writer of deeply thoughtful and insightful posts on LinkedIn. In this healthcare podcast, we are talking about bundled payments. And today’s your lucky day if you think you know a lot about bundles, because most people who listen to this show at least know enough to be dangerous. So, that’s our starting point, which is why I asked Dr. Schwartz to talk to me about what most people find surprising about bundles and bundled payments. There are four surprises that we go through in the show today. Listen to the show or read the transcript to find out exactly what they are. So, no spoiler alert alert. But relative to these surprises, we get into the four types of bundles that may or may not be available. And those four types of bundles are: 1. CMS bundles such as the (Bundled Payments for Care Improvement) and the CJR (Comprehensive Care for Joint Replacement) bundles, and we talk about the current state of said BPCI bundles, which are being sunsetted probably because so many efficient clinical teams are being penalized for getting too efficient. They become victims of their own success the way the program is currently designed, wherein the goalposts keep shifting. 2. Commercial bundles—ie, a bundle that is offered by a commercial carrier such as a BUCA (ie, Blue Cross Blue Shield/UnitedHealthcare/Cigna/Aetna/Anthem) carrier 3. Direct bundle—a bundle that is paid for directly by a plan sponsor such as a self-insured employer 4. Condition- or diagnosis-specific bundle. These types of bundles do not spiral around a surgical intervention at their core, which most of the current bundles do. This may describe CMS’s recently announced “Making Care Primary” initiative, but we’ll have to see about that. Speaking about the #3 kind of bundle, the employer-direct bundles, especially for musculoskeletal (MSK), let me share a by Moby Parsons, MD, that I thought captured the entrepreneurial spirit of some of these orthopedic surgeons who are seeking employers to direct contract with and cut out the middleman, etc (which, by the way, is the main topic of an entire show upcoming with Elizabeth Mitchell from the Purchaser Business Group on Health). But Dr. Parsons wrote: “When our bundle business has sufficient growth to ensure the absolute sustainability of our practice against declining reimbursements … in a fee-for-service system, I am getting this tattoo. Don’t tell my wife. [And the tattoo is ‘Free Yourself.’]” My guest today, aforementioned, is Dr. Ben Schwartz. He’s an orthopedic surgeon in the Boston area still in full-time clinical practice. He’s grown very interested in healthcare innovation, healthcare technology, and does some advising and investing. Dr. Schwartz also writes a great Substack called . After you listen to this show, please go back and listen to the one with Steve Schutzer, MD () talking about how to create a Center of Excellence and also the one with Rob Andrews () about how and why if you are a plan sponsor you might want to consider direct contracting with quantifiably amazing provider groups. Also, if you are an ortho or involved in MSK care, I might suggest following Karen Simonton on LinkedIn, as well as Moby Parsons, MD, and, for sure, of course, my guest today, Dr. Ben Schwartz. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and .   You can follow Dr. Schwartz on  and read his blog on .   Benjamin J. Schwartz, MD, MBA, is a fellowship-trained orthopedic surgeon with over 15 years of experience. He has served numerous healthcare leadership roles on both a local and national level with a focus on developing and implementing evidence-based, high-quality musculoskeletal care delivery pathways. Dr. Schwartz is vice chair of the Practice Management Committee for the American Association of Hip and Knee Surgeons and helps advance knowledge of musculoskeletal conditions as a member of the Hip and Knee Content Committee for the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons and editorial board member/elite reviewer for The Journal of Arthroplasty. Dr. Schwartz has extensive experience in value-based care, having personally achieved over $400,000 in savings during his first year in the CMS BPCI-A program. He has received awards for clinical care and professionalism and was named a Castle Connolly Top Doctor in 2022 and 2023. In addition to his clinical work, Dr. Schwartz maintains a strong presence in healthcare technology and innovation as advisor and investor to early-stage digital health companies. He is frequently sought after by clinicians, founders, and venture capitalists for his ability to bridge the gap between real-world medicine and start-ups/entrepreneurship. Dr. Schwartz’s passion is thoughtful implementation of technology and innovation to improve healthcare quality, accessibility, costs, and outcomes.   06:07 Where are we in the development of the bundled payments space? 08:09 What are the four types of bundled payments? 09:52 How can bundled payments create perverse incentives? 11:04 What are the positives in bundled payments, and how can they help push us toward value-based care? 13:02 What is surprising about bundled payments? 18:50 with Rob Andrews. 27:03 How do Centers of Excellence connect back to bundled payments? 29:00 with Peter Hayes. 30:29 with Steve Schutzer, MD. 33:38 with Al Lewis. 33:43 and with Cora Opsahl. 37:13 What does Dr. Schwartz think the future is for bundled payments?   You can follow Dr. Schwartz on and read his blog on .   @BenSchwartz_MD discusses #bundledpayments on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,  

For a full transcript of this episode, . On the show today, I am going to use the term TPA (third-party administrator) and ASO (administrative services only) vendor kind of interchangeably here. But these are the entities that a plan sponsor—for example, a self-insured employer is a plan sponsor—but these plan sponsors will use to administer their plan. And one of the things that TPAs and ASOs administer is this so-called weekly claims wire. Every week, self-funded employers get a weekly claims run charge so they can pay expenses related to their plan in weekly increments. The claims run usually comes with a register or an invoice. This invoice might be just kind of a total (“Hey, plan. Pay this amount.”). Or there might be a breakdown like, “Here’s your medical claims, and here’s your pharmacy claims.” Maybe there’s another level down from that of detail if the plan or their advisor is sophisticated enough and/or concerned enough about the fiduciary risk to dig in hard about what the charges are actually for. I was talking about this topic earlier with Dana Erdfarb, who happens to be executive director of HR at a large financial services organization. Dana I’m definitely gonna credit for inspiring this conversation that I’m having today with Justin Leader. Dana was the first one to really bring to my attention just the level of hidden fees that are buried (many times) in these claims wires … because when I say buried in the claims wire, I mean not charged for via an administrative invoice. These hidden fees are also not called out in the ASO finance exhibit in the contract, by the way. So, yeah … hidden. I don’t know … if you have to hide your charges, in my mind that’s a pretty big tell that your charges are worth hiding. Now the one thing I will point out is that just because the charges are worth hiding doesn’t necessarily mean that the services those charges are for are unwarranted. Some of these services are actually pretty worthwhile to do. There’s just a really big difference from a plan sponsor knowingly contracting at a known rate with a third party to do something versus paying for a service knowingly or unknowingly via fees hidden in a claims wire wherein the amount paid is not in the control of the one paying the bill. Anyway, I was talking about all of this earlier, as I mentioned, with Dana Erdfarb. That conversation was exactly the framework that I needed to snag Justin Leader, my guest today, to come on the pod and really dig into the detail level of what’s going on with this claims wire. So, in this healthcare podcast, we’re gonna talk about the five fees that tend to be tucked in to many claims wires. We also talk about one bonus—not sure if it’s a fee—one bonus way that plan sponsors give money to vendors in ways the plan sponsor might be unaware of. Here are the five hidden fees that we talk about at length in the show today, and then I’ll cover the bonus: 1. Shared Savings Fees. This is where a member of a plan goes out of network, and the TPA/ASO goes and negotiates a discount from the out-of-network provider and then shares the savings. Get it? Shared savings? This category also might include BlueCard Access fees, which we talk about in the show. But there also could be overpayment recoupment fees lumped in here. This is where the TPA messes up, overpays, and then charges the plan sponsor a percentage of the money they just got back when they corrected their own mistake. I’m just gonna pause here while everyone contemplates how we’ve all gone so wrong in life to not have figured out a way to charge others when we correct our own mistakes. Here’s a link to a great LinkedIn by Chris Deacon and a deep dive article on this topic. 2. Prior Auth Fees. Lots to unpack with this one, which Justin does in the pod. 3. Prepayment Integrity Fees. This is evaluation of the claim before it’s being paid. Listen to the show for how this may (or may not) differ from what the TPA/ASO is supposed to be doing (ie, it’s the TPA that’s supposed to be [yeah, right] adjudicating and paying claims). 4. Pay and Chase Fees. This is where a bill was paid wrong, and it’s not immediately the TPA/ASO’s mistake. This is where something like a provider double billed or overcharged or something, and the TPA/ASO later figures this out and then chases the pay to get the money back. 5. TPA Claims Review Fees. Sort of self-explanatory but also not. Again, please listen to the show for more. When I’d been talking about all of this with Dana Erdfarb, as I mentioned earlier, just about this whole thing, she said something that Justin Leader echoes today: Many of these fees are structured as a percentage of savings. This is challenging for a plan sponsor because the savings is vendor reported and not validated. But it also means that if the savings increase annually with trend (as they, generally speaking, do), then the fees will increase with that trend as well—and that is something to keep in mind. Okay … so, here’s the bonus thing that didn’t get a number in the show today, but it is certainly a way that plan sponsors pay money to vendors. And this is medical claims spread pricing. This is buried in the claims wire and inside the dollar amounts the plan sponsor thinks they are paying a provider for a service. It turns out that it can turn out that the amount the plan sponsor is paying is more than the check that’s being written to the provider for the service being delivered. Or the amount the plan sponsor is paying the provider for a service is more than for simply that service that has been rendered, right? The plan sponsor is paying the provider for other stuff as well, as is alleged in the DOL v BCBS of Minnesota lawsuit, which Justin brings up in the show today. It drives me nuts, honestly, when there are people who tout their transparency. But then it turns out if the equation is A plus B equals C, only like one of the numbers is transparent. Sorry, functionally, that doesn’t count as transparency except in marketing copy. This is all to say—and here’s Dana Erdfarb’s actionable advice which sums up points Justin also made—when employers review their medical plan vendor contracts, they should make sure to identify, review, and document all fees being paid to their vendors and incorporate this knowledge into their renewal/RFP (request for proposal) discussions and negotiations. Jeff Hogan echoed this advice on the other day when he commented on this show: “Such a great opportunity for employers to have their administrative services agreements and other documents examined to discover these schemes. It’s not hard to do. Also, a great advertisement for the value of having retrospective audits performed. It is eye opening to see not only the amount of arbitrage but often how payers don’t even pay according to their contracts. Justin Leader is the perfect guest.” As mentioned a myriad of times already, my guest today is Justin Leader, who is president and CEO of BenefitsDNA. Justin works with plan sponsors, both commercial plans as well as Taft-Hartley plans, across the United States. Before we kick into the show today, I just want to thank By the 49ers for the really nice review on iTunes. By the 49ers calls Relentless Health Value a “leading voice in healthcare” and says he or she always leaves “with intrigue, a new idea or a new approach to problem solving.” Really appreciate that. That is certainly one of our goals around here. So, thank you so much. Oh, also, please subscribe to the weekly email that goes out. You can do that by going over to our Web site and signing up. There are a lot of advantages to doing so, which I’ve talked about before, so I’m not gonna do so again; but it is a great way to make sure that if you’re a member of the Relentless Health Value Tribe, you are aware of the current goings-on. Also mentioned in this episode are , , , , , , , , , , , , and . You can learn more at or . You can also follow Justin on .     Justin Leader began his career in the pharmaceutical and financial services industries. By 2011, Justin entered into the group benefits field consulting for many notable Fortune 500 clients. In 2014, he established BenefitsDNA, an objective, independent health and welfare benefit plan consulting firm providing compliance oversight, actuarial services, cost mitigation, and traditional broker services to Group Health Plan Sponsors. As a Certified Health Rosetta Chartered Advisor (eighth advisor to join), he’s acknowledged for contributing to healthcare solutions in the United States both in policy as well as practice and is an avid supporter of Patient Rights Advocate. Throughout his career, Justin has been instrumental in introducing successful healthcare benefit solutions to the market, which have been pivotal in solving critical issues and saving millions for employers and their employees. As a mission-driven leader, he and his team are passionate about fixing healthcare one client, one member, and one partnership at a time. Having trademarked We Fix Your Healthcare™, their mission is one that his team takes seriously. Justin, a native of Bedford, Pennsylvania, holds a pre-medicine degree and a master’s degree in exercise science from California University of Pennsylvania. His dedication extends to servant leadership, volunteering in the local community including serving on the PA State Council of SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) since 2016. Justin is a public speaker and owner of Leaders Never Quit, where he dedicates his time to inspiring others with a message of hope, humor, and resilience.   07:55 How is the claims wire typically explained to a plan sponsor? 11:18 What is the whole point of self-funding? 11:27 Why is it so vital to understand what you’re paying for? 12:38 What are the five “buried” items that wind up in these claims wires? 13:03 What is a shared savings fee? 17:10 “Rates are important, but so are your rights.” 21:01 What’s going on with prior auth fees? 23:35 What is prepayment integrity? 28:16 What is pay and chase? 31:54 What is a TPA claim review? 35:47 Is there medical claim spread pricing?   You can learn more at or . You can also follow Justin on .   @JustinDLeader discusses #plansponsor #payments on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,  

For a full transcript of this episode, . Here’s a great musing that I read on : How will alternative primary care models fare when growth mode gets balanced with profitability and VC-supported burn rate is transformed to Big Retail bottom-line expectations? Mission v. margin. I’m gonna add to this: How will alternative primary care models, or even just doing good primary care, fare when it encounters the current system rife with perverse incentives of all kinds, including, yeah, for sure, Big Retail bottom-line expectations but also Big Health System and Big Payer bottom-line expectations and current business models? This show from last year was wildly popular—maybe one of our most popular shows—and relisten to it in the current context of what’s going on right now in the primary care and MSO (Managed Services Only) space. Coming up, I’m gonna probably do a whole show on this if I can get my act together; but this encore is really relevant right now. One piece of podcast business before we get into the episode: Please sign up for our weekly email if you haven’t already, especially if you consider yourself part of the Relentless Health Tribe. I am mentioning this not only because it’s a great way to keep track of our shows because you can do an email search to remember where you heard something, since a good deal of the show intros are in the emails, but also, there’s a plan afoot to hold some Zoom meetings to talk about different topics etc—and you won’t be notified of such goings-on unless you’re subscribed. You can unsubscribe whenever you want, by the way; and I am way too busy to send more than one email a week or spam if that was a concern. On Relentless Health Value, I don’t often get into our guests’ personal histories. There are a bunch of reasons for this, which, if you buy me beer, we can talk podcast philosophy and I will tell you all about my personal, very arguable opinion here. Nevertheless, in this healthcare podcast, we are going rogue; and I am talking with Scott Conard, MD, who shares his personal story. You may ask why I decided to go this route for this particular episode, and I will tell you point-blank that Dr. Conard’s experience, his narrative, is like the perfect analogue (Is analogue the right word [allegory, composite example]?). His story just sums up in a nutshell what happens when a PCP (primary care provider) does the right thing, manages to improve patient care for real, and then at some point gets sucked into the intrigue and gambits and maneuvering that is, sadly, the business of healthcare in the United States today. Before we kick in, I just want to highlight a statement that Scott Conard makes toward the end of the show. He says: So, this isn’t about punishing or blaming aspects of care that are being overrewarded today. It’s really about what’s the path forward for corporations, for middle-class Americans, and for primary care doctors who don’t choose to be part of a big system. We have to figure out how to solve this problem. I hope people don’t hear this and think that there are horrible people at some not-for-profit hospital systems, for example. There are some great people at not-for-profit health systems, but they have some really screwed-up incentives. A few notable notes from Dr. Scott Conard’s journey and words of wisdom that I will just highlight up front here: He says that as a PCP, you actually can produce high-value care in a fee-for-service model … if you think differently and you change practice patterns. I have heard this from others as well, including most recently David Muhlestein, PhD, JD, who says this in an episode (). As Dr. Scott Conard says later in this episode, healthcare organizations must embrace the art of medical leadership. So, I guess that’s a spoiler alert there. Another point that Dr. Conard makes very crisply toward the end of the show is that doctors can kinda get pushed and pulled around in this mix. You have docs just trying to provide good care, and they work for one entity that gets bought and now it’s some other entity … and what’s happening upstairs and the prices being charged or somebody somewhere deciding not to make prices transparent, or deciding to sue low-income patients for unpaid medical bills or what charity care to offer or not to offer. These are not doctors in clinics making these calls, and we need to be careful here not to homogenize what some of these health systems are choosing to do like some kind of democratic vote was taken by everybody who works there. Health systems, hospitals, are many-celled complex entities. And a third takeaway—there are a bunch of takeaways in this show, but a third one I’ll highlight here from Dr. Conard’s story—is the old fiduciary responsibility code word being used by health system administrators as a euphemism for strategies that might need a euphemistic code word because the strategy has questionable community benefit. In the case study that we talk about today, the local health system managed to raise healthcare spend in North Texas by $100 million year over year. Employers and employees in North Texas communities wound up paying $100 million more year over year in healthcare one particular year. This was prices going up. It also was removing a big systemic initiative to keep heads out of hospital beds. Reiterating here, we are not talking about doctors here particularly because, of course, the vast majority of doctors are trying to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. But suddenly in North Texas, physicians did not have the population health efforts and the team really standing behind them helping to prevent avoidable hospitalizations. That sucks for everybody trying to do the right thing, and, as has been said, burnout is moral injury in a cheap Halloween costume. Moral injury happens when you have good people, clinicians, doctors, and others who realize that what is going on, at best, is not helping the patient. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; and .   You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at .   Scott Conard, MD, DABFP, FAAFM, is board certified in family and integrative medicine and has been seeing patients for more than 35 years. He was an associate clinical professor at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Dallas for 21 years. He has been the principal investigator in more than 60 clinical trials, written many articles, and published five books on health, well-being, leadership, and empowerment. Starting as a solo practitioner, he grew his medical practice to more than 510 clinicians over the next 20 years. In its final form, the practice was a value-based integrated delivery network that reduced the cost of care dramatically through prevention and proactive engagement. When this was acquired by a hospital system, he became the chief medical officer for a brokerage/consulting firm and an innovation lab for effective health risk–reducing interventions. Today, he is co-founder of Converging Health, LLC, a technology-empowered consulting and services company working with at-risk entities like self-insured corporations, medical groups and accountable care organizations taking financial risk, and insurance captives to improve well-being, reduce costs, and improve the members’ experience. Through Dr. Conard’s work with a variety of organizations and companies, he understands that every organization has a unique culture and needs. It is his ability to find opportunities and customize solutions that delivers success through improved health and lower costs for his clients.   06:54 What triggered Scott’s career journey? 07:31 What caused Scott to rethink what is good primary care? 08:11 Why did Scott realize that he is actually a risk-management expert as a primary care doctor rather than someone who treats symptoms? 09:25 with Brian Klepper, PhD. 09:53 How did Scott’s practice change after this realization? 10:04 What is a “Whole-Person Risk Score”? 11:08 Scott’s book, . 13:05 “You start to move from a transactional model to a relationship model.” 15:31 Did Scott have any risk-based contracts? 16:08 Why is it so important to look at total cost of care and not just primary care cost? 21:08 Scott’s book, . 22:13 with Karen Root. 30:43 Why did Scott move over to help corporations? 33:10 with David Muhlestein, PhD, JD. 33:51 “Everybody thought they were honoring their fiduciary responsibility, and the incentives are completely misaligned.” 34:31 with Wendell Potter. 34:43 “It’s the system that’s broken; it’s not bad people.”   You can learn more by emailing Dr. Conard at .   @ScottConardMD discusses #primarycare #marginvsmission on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . This show has implications for provider organizations of all stripes, especially those looking to succeed in value-based care or those who need patient trust and relationships for any other reason, including just patient volume. This episode also is for provider organizations who are trying to prevent clinician burnout better. It’s also for practices trying to get themselves into narrow networks where patient satisfaction is surveyed at some point in the process, and this includes Centers of Excellence networks. You know what the rate critical is that I talk about on the show today with Jerry Durham that rarely, if ever, gets talked about in any of these contexts? It’s not some fancy data artificial intelligence thing or something else the doctor needs to be clicking on or nurses need to step up and handle. Nope. I’m talking about the front desk. What an overlooked secret to success or a clinician and clinical failure point! Consider that what goes on on or about the front desk is either gonna set up the doctor or other provider for success or make it really really hard for them. This is what I talk about today with Jerry Durham in this encore episode from a couple of years ago that is still so incredibly relevant because the insights that Jerry shares are so often overlooked and they impact both patients but also doctors and other clinicians in ways we don’t often think about but, in this era of staff shortages and burnout, I’d suggest maybe we should. Here’s something I never really understood: how physicians and nurses more often than not get to be responsible for the entire patient journey, including, start to finish, patient satisfaction. But if you just take one look at any random poorly rated physician’s reviews, they’re usually littered with complaints about the front desk in the practice. Negative reviews, of course, are not limited to front desk diatribes; but there’s often a lot of front desk commentary in them. It has always seemed to me to be a common and strange phenomenon in healthcare provider practices where the front desk is like a totally separate little fiefdom with a different mission statement and goals from the healthcare providers in the same exact office. Isn’t that odd when you think about it? I mean, first, the front desk is literally physically separated from everybody else. No matter which direction you approach from, there’s at a minimum a half-wall barrier surrounding them. Sometimes, in directions most likely to receive an attack, I suppose, there’s been added a big glass barrier. Liliana Petrova pointed this out in of the Relentless Health Value podcast, and it was really the first time that I had thought about it at all and also thought about the implicit message this sends not only to patients but also to clinicians. That whole physicality of the setup, it just screams, “We over here have nothing to do with the mission or vision of anyone else in this place. We have our own thing going on over here, and to do it, we need to be protected from you all and all of your chicanery and untoward goings-on, you doctors and nurses and patients!” So, I was really inspired the first time I heard Jerry Durham from The Client Experience Company talking. His message, as I understood it, was that a practice really on board with helping patients achieve the best patient outcomes and, nothing for nothing, erode clinician burnout includes the front desk in their thinking. Jerry has said that there’s four phases in the patient life cycle, as he calls it, which is sort of a synonym for the patient journey: 1. Marketing 2. The moment that a patient/person engages with the clinic or office 3. Provider interactions 4. The post course of care So, all of these phases—all four of them—are critical to both patient outcomes and experience but also, really, to business success. So, you kind of almost have to do well by doing good. The front desk is mostly responsible for that phase two: what happens when that person/patient engages with your office or clinic. In this healthcare podcast, as mentioned, I’m talking with Jerry Durham. He’s a former physical therapist and practice owner who has worked with a whole lot of PT (physical therapy) practices and also other MSK (musculoskeletal) specialties among other clients. His message transcends the specialty, however. In this healthcare podcast, we get into a lot of aspects in terms of how a front desk can work for or against patient experience and outcomes. One of them is how a front desk can help secure a patient’s relationship with a practice. Without a relationship and trust, patient outcomes are meh at best. But a lack of trust is a big hairy factor behind disparities in outcomes among different ethnic groups, for example, as one point to ponder. Also mentioned in this episode are and . You can learn more at or by emailing Jerry at .   Jerry Durham is a healthcare consultant and physiotherapist with a singular passion for leveraging the entire healthcare practice team toward improved patient outcomes while increasing the practice bottom line. Jerry has 30+ years’ experience as a physiotherapist, including 20+ years of business ownership, including practice ownership, business consulting, and a virtual front desk sales solutions for healthcare practices. Jerry has spent a lot of time on the front line of physio practices answering calls and learning why patients think and act the way they do when interacting with the front desk team. He has learned how to leverage the information at first contact carried all the way through to a completed plan of care, and these are the systems that lead to greater patient outcomes and greater practice success. Jerry defines these systems as “the rules of client engagement.”   05:49 What is the patient life cycle? 06:48 What are the milestones of the patient life cycle? When does it start? 10:05 “This isn’t a business solution; this is a patient-driven solution.” 10:21 “What is best for the patient is best for business.” 13:25 “The takeaway there is that your team members are all driving toward the same goal.” 14:34 How does the front desk impact health outcomes? 16:41 What is the objective of a front desk to reduce provider burden? 20:03 with Liliana Petrova. 21:18 “There’s actually three roles at the front desk.” 30:37 with Julie Rish, PhD.   You can learn more at or by emailing Jerry at .   @Jerry_DurhamPT discusses #patientengagement and #clinicianteam success on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . First of all, I just want to start out this pod and really thank everyone listening and for showing up for a show like this one. You do it and you are here because you care about patients/members. It’s just so easy to feel like we’ll never be able to do enough, and that’s a rough, rough feeling. Please take a moment to truly hear how grateful I am for you being here and for doing all that you do and that you try to do. I saw on the interwebs the other day a Marcus Aurelius quote. What he said was, “Be satisfied with even the smallest progress.” And I think this is really important to remember because nobody working in the healthcare industry, especially today, is ever probably gonna get anything close to a perfect solution. So instead, just aim for progress—even the smallest amount—and feel good about that, please. This show is an important one for anybody either in the business of healthcare delivery or buying healthcare delivery services. It’s an exploration of what works and what doesn’t work and how what works can easily become what doesn’t work in the face of the real world. This peril of cutting clinical “waste” perilousness all starts with the whole “Hey, let’s make some money, so we gotta scale and be efficient. We gotta do our thing at as low as possible a cost and maybe grow as fast as possible. We gotta keep our investors happy or pay off the debt we got saddled with or pay that giant management fee we’re being charged or compensate the C-suite at the level they’ve grown accustomed to.” So again, the “let’s be efficient and get everything repeatable” has entered the building. The first point my guest today, Kate Wolin, ScD, makes about all of this—and this is exactly the same point that Rik Renard made in —efficient to what endgame? Now, it turns out, surveys show, only a small, small percentage of healthcare delivery solution providers are measuring outcomes of pretty much any kind. So, how do we even know if cutting so-called waste is actually waste at all? I mean, in the absence of any actual measures—here’s a hypothetical for you—someone could look around: “Hey, I see these nurses. They’re all just sitting around chatting with patients and, I don’t know, talking about throw rugs? What is this? An episode of HGTV? Who cares if a patient with diabetic neuropathy has throw rugs in their hallway? Let’s tell these nurses chop-chop, get them on the computer using AI to be efficient, right? Let’s get rid of that clinical waste.” I just made a point in the most sarcastic way possible, but the bottom line is this: It’s actually really efficient to not engage patients in these ways, right? Patients, they talk slow, they ask questions that seem irrelevant, and they’re time-consuming. It’s very efficient to not build relationships or foster trust or, I don’t know, assess fall risks … but whatever is going on is also going to fail in that model—from a patient outcome standpoint at least. Here’s a quote from Sergei Polevikov, with some light edits. He wrote on : Primary care is not scalable in the same way as Scrub Daddy or Bombas Socks. That’s something not taught in MBA and CFA programs. Someone should have told Walgreens, CVS, Amazon, and Walmart. They also probably should tell a whole bunch of point solutions and payers. Also, some health system execs or pharmacy leaders might also want to get that memo. What I really liked about the conversation with Kate Wolin in this healthcare podcast is that she retains optimism in the face of all of this. She offers advice for how to navigate the balance between mission and margin in a way that’s better for patients and also sustainable financially. She talks about three points: 1. Founders and investors being in alignment and the essential nature of that 2. The importance of having clinical leadership and a team dynamic that enables innovation but in a clinically sound way 3. How you gotta measure what matters and do it in a way that inspires a mission-driven culture If we’re talking about relevant shows to listen to next after you listen to this one, please do not forget . This is where Al Lewis teaches us how to evaluate wellness vendors and health solutions, but it also teaches us how to be a good wellness vendor or health solution. Also, do come back and listen to the encore with Jerry Durham next week about front desks and the total care experience. Lots of really bad avoidable things happen if the front desk isn’t considered—and it isn’t often considered. For sure, also listen to the show with Kenny Cole, MD (); that’s a must-listen. Then again, the show with Rik Renard () came up several times in this episode. The show with Jodilyn Owen () also gets brought up; that’s a great cautionary tale there to keep in mind for mission-driven entrepreneurs and investors. And then, I also recommend J. Michael Connors, MD. He writes a lot of stuff in a along these lines. Last, last, last … Please go to our Web site and subscribe to the weekly email. I am planning on doing a few invite-only sessions for email subscribers. Plus, the weekly email is a really very convenient way to get the episode transcripts and stuff. And if you don’t get it, you’re making your life less efficient. So, go fix that. Kate Wolin, my guest today, trained as a behavioral epidemiologist and has done research in chronic disease prevention and management. She launched and led a digital health start-up and sold it to Anthem. She’s been in the digital health start-up space largely at the intersection of science and product strategy ever since. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and . You can learn more by following Dr. Wolin on .   Kate Wolin, ScD, is a behavioral epidemiologist who left academic medicine to launch and lead a digital health start-up, which she bootstrapped to profitability before selling to Anthem. She has since been a C-suite leader, investor, and advisor to digital health start-ups and enterprise organizations on bridging clinical and behavioral science with product strategy and execution. She has been named as a Forbes Healthcare Innovator That You Should Know and a Notable Woman in STEM by Crains. Dr. Wolin is a Fellow of the Society of Behavioral Medicine and the American College of Sports Medicine and teaches entrepreneurship at Kellogg.   06:24 Irrespective of money, what works in clinical care and population healthcare? 09:51 with Carly Eckert, MD, PhD(c), MPH. 10:26 Why is creating a gathering place and sense of community important in clinical care? 12:46 “Sometimes, we make this about the clinical provider. It always makes me think about the rest of the people in an ecosystem that create trust.” 13:49 with Jerry Durham. 14:11 Where can things go wrong when we start to think about the margin in respect to the clinical care that works? 16:47 with Rik Renard. 19:35 “We’re actually very unspecific in what we’re trying to achieve a lot of times in these digital health programs.” 24:00 “Are you aligned as a founder, as a business with your investors on the pace of growth and what is feasible … ?” 25:30 Why is Dr. Wolin optimistic about achieving growth and still providing value? 28:17 Why is it important to ask why something is being done? 30:39 with Jodilyn Owen. 34:35 How are people motivated, and how can you use that to reduce turnover? 35:21 Why measuring what matters and communicating that is important.   You can learn more by following Dr. Wolin on .   Kate Wolin, ScD, discusses #clinicalwaste on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,  

For a full transcript of this episode, . There’s this meme that’s going around on the interwebs with the caption, “Sometimes the shortest distance in between two places isn’t a straight line.” What? Yeah, because actually there’s in the real world. So, when we all consider the real world, understanding the contours of reality and aligning with them is the only way to devise a winning strategy—not only if you’re timing rubber balls getting dropped off straight or curved slopes. I’m saying this because I’ve seen (and you’ve seen) a whole lot of great ideas fail because someone draws a very elegant straight line on a whiteboard, calls it the fastest and most efficient way to get from here to a desired outcome … and then the plan ultimately fails. What contours am I talking about taking into account right now? Oh, pretty much the entirety of US healthcare. If you combine the complexities and perverse incentives of the industry itself plus the art and science of medicine plus epidemiology and social determinants and I’m probably forgetting other dimensions, you have contours that are mountain ranges. Not considering the reality of those elevations and just thinking there’s some kind of straight line here to be found is really a kind of delusion. Now, investors and C-suites may like these delusions, but let’s just get real: It’s not gonna actually work out as written. One case study that I am talking about is digital health solutions or pharma companies even or pretty much anyone who thinks that the fastest way to increase sales is to talk about the product, let’s just say as one example. That’s the straight line to growth: Talk about the product. Another one is stripping away things that feel like they’re a waste of time in the name of efficiency without actually checking if you’re cutting into essential stuff. I talk about this at length with Kate Wolin, ScD, in an episode coming up. Jodilyn Owen has a thing or two to say on this point in also. But let me be clear: I’m not talking about anyone listening to the show today making this mistake, at least wholesale. We all make it incrementally; it’s hard to avoid. But you get this. That’s why you’re here. You get that the fastest path anywhere is truly understanding the problems faced by customers. And then it’s showing how the product or whatever you’re doing helps solve those problems. No one cares how efficient or safe your thing is if it’s accomplishing something that no one cares about, no one gets paid for, and/or can figure out how to deploy or use. This is what the entire episode last week, with Barbara Wachsman, was about. Why is all of this relevant? It’s actually what makes Relentless Health Value relevant, frankly. Many listeners—and shout-outs to Nate Walker and MaryCarol Evans—say that this is why they listen to Relentless Health Value and what Relentless Health Value helps them with: finding those contours, understanding reality so that it can be aligned with. And on the show today, Kenny Cole, MD, I gotta say, could be really impactful in this regard as well as in others. Nate Walker wrote, “[Relentless Health Value] inspires me every day to stay true to my desire to make a difference in healthcare for patients by adding transparency and helping to connect the dots within this fragmented system.” MaryCarol Evans has alluded to the same thing multiple times as well and often highlights that Relentless Health Value helps her think through and identify the small things that are possible—she says there’s plenty of them—that have a huge impact on the lives of plan members. Dr. Kenny Cole is from Ochsner Health System, and I love this conversation today because it has lessons for anybody working in a clinic or managing a clinic who wants to learn from a master. But it also is really interesting for anyone who’s trying to work with, alongside of, or sell to a clinical practice or health system that is pulling away from the status quo, that is standardizing care and working as a team, one that is earning the trust of its patients, and also one that is figuring out how to reinvent the business model of healthcare such that clinical pathways and care flows are aligned with financial viability. That’s really, obviously, the holy grail here. We talk today about how to achieve clinical and financial success, even if the financial models are all over the map. We talk about how to create a practice model or a clinical model that might appeal to clinicians and keep them from being burnt out while, at the same time, ensure that patients are getting the kind of outcomes everyone can be proud of and the place doesn’t go bankrupt either. This episode reminded me a lot of the conversation with Scott Conard, MD ()—there’s lots of complementary points. The shows with David Carmouche, MD (, , ) from when he was at Ochsner are also pretty relevant here. Some of the points that Dr. Kenny Cole makes today also align very much with what Rik Renard () was talking about a few weeks ago. But regardless of where you sit or what you’re trying to do, this show is a great one to really get a bead on the lay of the land to find the actual shortest path between here and there, which is not gonna be (most likely) an obviously straight line. Dr. Kenny Cole makes, I’m gonna say, four main points by my counting; and they are as follows: 1. Clinical teams have to deliver care wherein outcomes are measurable, and it has to be done in such a way that those clinical teams are accountable for the outcomes that are generated. 2. Clinical teams need to really see with their own two eyes and believe that a clinical goal that they’ve been given is possible. 3. Care flows are critical here, which means getting everyone on the same page about what best-practice care looks like and operationalizing how that clinical excellence will be achieved. 4. Building trust with patients and connecting with patients cannot be underestimated, and care flows need to not only standardize care so that it can be delivered quicker and easier but also facilitate patient relationships. Dr. Kenny Cole is a primary care internist. He sees patients one day a week. The other days, he serves as a system vice president for Ochsner Health, which is a large integrated delivery system. In this role, he designs and develops new care models. If I’m making recommendations for what to listen to next, I’d go with with Robert Pearl, MD—he talks about a model to lead healthcare transformation and clinical excellence. Then with Dr. Scott Conard gets into what happens in the real world when the financial model is misaligned with excellent care. Lastly, with Dr. David Carmouche. Oh, two last things and new topics: First, thanks to Santos-L-Halper, Nina Lathia, and KC64789 for some really nice this month. I read them. They make me happy. Thanks so much for leaving them. And lastly, heads up that Rule of Three (ro3) has an annual that is currently ongoing. It’s pretty cool what they do. They have a very august panel that debates which trends will reign supreme in their impact on healthcare in 2024. The committee includes: ·      Dr. David Carmouche, SVP Healthcare Delivery, Walmart Health ·      Eric Gallagher, CEO, Ochsner Health Network ·      Leah Binder, CEO, The Leapfrog Group ·      Anisha Sood, Chief Financial & Strategy Officer, First Choice Health Follow along with the experts through the ro3 March Healthcare Classic at . Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and . You can learn more at . You can also follow Dr. Cole on .   Kenny Cole, MD, began his role as System VP, Clinical Improvement, for Ochsner Health in New Orleans in September 2019. He is a practicing primary care internist with advanced degrees from LSU Health Sciences Center and Dartmouth, as well as executive training from Harvard Business School. Prior to joining Ochsner Health, Dr. Cole was the chief clinical transformation officer for Baton Rouge General Medical Center, where he designed, developed, and implemented a completely reimagined multidisciplinary team-based model of primary care that focused on aligning clinical with financial outcomes. His current work at Ochsner Health built on that prior foundation to design and help develop Ochsner 65 Plus, a group of redesigned primary care clinics focused on the needs of older adults.   07:38 Is there an optimal care pathway where there might be a lot of treatment variability? 11:01 Why doesn’t Dr. Cole like the terms “noncompliant” and “nonadherent”? 11:45 with Robert Pearl, MD. 13:50 Why is it important to start with the end in mind? 17:20 How do you scale clinical excellence? 20:21 with Bob Matthews. 21:15 with Marty Makary, MD. 23:49 Why is it important simply to demonstrate what’s possible for better health outcomes? 24:58 with Rik Renard. 26:10 How do we reinvent the business model of healthcare? 27:50 with Rob Andrews. 30:06 with Scott Conard, MD. 38:37 Dr. Cole is published in various healthcare journals; check out his .   You can learn more at . You can also follow Dr. Cole on .   Kenny Cole, MD, discusses #accountability for #healthoutcomes on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,  

For a full transcript of this episode, . We have been spending a bunch of time here on Relentless Health Value talking about PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers) lately and pharmacy benefits, but we are moving into a new topic area. It sort of kicked off three weeks ago with the pod with Rik Renard () on the importance of care flows if you are a digital health vendor trying to get consistent outcomes. But then I actually went back to the PBM/pharmacy benefits topic to talk with Luke Slindee, PharmD () and Julie Selesnick () because, you know, the J&J lawsuit. But now we’re back on the “let’s talk about digital health and point solutions” bus. I wanted to talk today about the trend to sell to employers and advice for digital health solutions who want to sell to employers, but there’s a little bit of advice here for employers themselves. At a minimum, this conversation affords a little bit of transparency to employers about what’s going on on the other side of the table. So, as I just said, in this healthcare podcast we talk about selling to employers. Why sell to employers is probably a first question. Well, one reason Barb offers is because that’s where the money is. It’s like that Willie Sutton quote. Someone asked him why he robbed banks, and he replied, “Because that’s where the money is.” I mean, hospitals know this. Have you seen their commercial rates and their multiples over Medicare? Payers know this, too. Payers who use their ability to raise commercial rates as leverage to get lower MA (Medicare Advantage) rates for themselves … they know this. So, yeah. Why wouldn’t a point solution entrepreneur take a page out of that business model? It’s saying the quiet part out loud, but … yeah, I guess it’s good to know when you’re the numero uno healthcare industry sugar daddy (or sugar mommy, as the case may be). Every employer listening right now has already opened up their phone and started an email to me. Barb gets into four pieces of advice for entrepreneurs looking to sell to employers: 1. There has to be a market that has a need for what you are selling, and there won’t be a market with a need unless the problem you’re solving for is big enough—and right now, I am recapping things that Barb says on the show—because when she talks about whether the problem is big enough, she means as per the employer and maybe because the fallout from that big problem accrues to the employer in a way that the employer fully appreciates. As I say in the pod that follows, the ground is littered with entrepreneurs, often really smart people who oftentimes I truly admire. These are individuals who found a problem for patients (or sometimes even clinicians) and solved for it and then discovered that no one will pay them for whatever they’ve done, because we can’t forget that, in the healthcare industry, one person’s waste is somebody else’s profit. There is show after show here at Relentless Health Value that showcases the sacred honeypots where these perverse incentives lie, so if you are an entrepreneur, please follow the dollar and see where it leads before getting too far. That would be my advice. I’d recommend the show with Rob Andrews () and the one with Jodilyn Owen () as a great place to start. One comment about the whole “it’s gotta be a need that employers appreciate” point that Barb makes which caught my ear, she rhetorically asks, “Should HR purchasers be buying solutions that improve health and well-being?” And the short answer is no. Barb says none of that should be the primary driver. The primary driver, Barb mentions, should be about optimization of human capital to drive business outcomes. She says every decision a business makes should be about maximizing business outcomes. Now, I could take this a bunch of different ways; and viscerally it has, again, kind of a “quiet part out loud” vibe. But in certain ways, it also means buying decisions should be bigger than just cutting costs. First of all, no one is arguing here that cutting wasteful spending isn’t always a good thing; but neither are cost-containment strategies that undermine employee health to the extent that they can’t complete their work role or their job. Listen to the show with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD () for more on this cost containment versus value-based purchasing, specifically in the pharmacy benefit space, but same rules apply pretty much everywhere. 2. Be truly differentiated in terms of what you’re trying to sell. Barb gives a bunch of examples of “secret sauces” she thinks are kind of compelling right now. 3. Navigate the internal politics of the employer. And this is kind of Selling 101, but find a champion and help them navigate their own organization. We talk at length about how long the sell process can take, especially in some of these jumbo employers. 4. Manage your investors as closely as you manage your possible clients. And this is an interesting point that also comes up in the conversation with Kate Wolin, ScD, that’s coming up in a few weeks. Also in this conversation, we have a sidebar about PMPM (per member per month) and performance guarantees and just some nuances about how to get paid. Oh, and one last point here: If you are an entrepreneur who is thinking about selling to brokers, employee benefit consultants, or practice leads, do listen to the show with AJ Loiacono (), which I encored a couple of weeks ago. My guest today, Barbara Wachsman, has had experience in every single element of the healthcare ecosystem. She has worked in public health. She’s worked for an HMO. She’s worked for a hospital system. She’s run benefit consulting practices and also spent the last dozen or so years at Disney running strategy and benefits. Today she is a limited partner in several private equity funds at Frazier Healthcare Partners. Oh, and hey, you might want to subscribe to our weekly email, which includes this introduction transcribed as well as links to the full episode transcribed. We also sometimes send out invitations to Zoom meetups and other ways to get involved or support us in our quest to get Americans better healthcare. So, go to and get yourself on that list Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and .   You can learn more at . You can also follow Barbara on .   Barbara E. Wachsman, MPH, is the former director of strategy and engagement for enterprise benefits for the Walt Disney Company. In this position, she led the strategic initiatives and designed the programs that addressed Disney’s long-term healthcare and goals and objectives, headed operations of large on-site clinics and full-risk physician partnerships, and was the creator of the Strategy Lab, the home for innovation in healthcare delivery. She is a speaker on the national stage regarding direct contracting and the value of primary care. Barbara currently serves as a senior advisor to an $8 billion growth-buyout private equity firm specializing in healthcare and as head of employer strategy for a virtual primary care company with a unique medical practice model. She sits on the Boards of the Duke-Margolis Center for Health Policy Institute and the QueensCare Foundation, serving the low-income and underserved population of Los Angeles. She remains a senior advisor and founding member of the Employer Healthcare Innovation Roundtable (EHIR) and is a faculty member of the EHIR Academy. Barbara serves on the Executive Committee of the American Board of Medical Specialties and on the Advisory Boards of several healthcare start-ups as well as the corporate board of a large metabolic health company. She is also an advisor to the Purchaser Business Group on Health and to the Silicon Valley Employers Forum. Barbara received her Master of Public Health and Master of City Planning/Architecture degrees from the University of California, Berkeley, and is a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Scripps College, where she received her bachelor of arts degree.   06:55 Why have people cottoned on to selling to employers, and is it a good direction to focus? 07:28 What are the three ways healthcare gets paid for in America? 07:46 Where is the profit in the healthcare system? 08:32 What does an entrepreneur really need to understand in order to sell to employers? 13:05 “It really is about producing a productive employee.” 17:49 Why it’s not enough to understand the market but you must also differentiate. 21:01 What’s the biggest misunderstanding entrepreneurs have about per member per month? 24:10 What companies are standing out right now as differentiators? 28:02 Why is it important to also show that you are improving quality? 28:51 with Al Lewis. 28:55 with Rik Renard. 29:33 with Cora Opsahl. 30:07 Why is it important to find a strong champion who will advocate for you as a partner? 35:05 Why is it important to manage your investors and set appropriate expectations around the timeline of a sale? 36:21 What’s the lesson to be learned behind Livongo?   You can learn more at . You can also follow Barbara on .   Barbara Wachsman discusses #digitalhealthvendors selling to #employers on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,

For a full transcript of this episode, . In this healthcare podcast we’re talking about pharmacy acronyms or terms like AWP and WAC, and, not really an acronym, but we’ll also talk pharmacy list prices, rebates, discounts. We also have NADAC, but that’s slightly off to the side for reasons we’ll get to in a sec. Most of these acronyms refer to a number with a dollar sign in front of it, and it’s hell on wheels to figure out if and/or to what extent that number reflects what is going on in the real world, especially if you are a patient or a plan sponsor and all you see is the list price that Pharma puts out on one side of the storyboard, and then what the patient pays or (if you’re lucky) what the plan pays for the drug on the way other side of the whole chain of events. What’s a black box a lot of times for patients and plan sponsors is what goes on in the middle, wherein many middle people get their mitts on the transaction. Real quick here, let’s run through the Mister Rogers’ neighborhood of all of these middle people right now; and we’re gonna do this really briefly. Most of you are already going to know most of this, but I just want to remind you so that when my guest today, Luke Slindee, and I kick into the conversation about the acronyms and the terms and we try to follow the dollar … yeah, you can put a name to a face. Alright, so first we have pharma manufacturers. The pharma manufacturer—and this is largely gonna be true whether it’s a branded drug or a generic pharma manufacturer—but the manufacturer sets a list price. This list price is gonna be called an AWP or a WAC price, and we’re gonna get into the differences and what those terms actually mean in the show that follows. But Pharma decides their price point. They go to wholesalers with that price. Wholesalers say they want a discount to purchase the product. Some kind of rebate or discount is negotiated. Now the wholesalers have the drug, and they get calls from pharmacies. Pharmacies have patients who have scripts for that, so the pharmacies need to buy the drug. What price does the pharmacy now pay the wholesaler for the drug? Short answer: It’s nuts. It’s nuts how the wholesalers decide what to charge the pharmacies for the drug. We talk about that in the interview that follows, but suffice to say that now we have the list price turning into whatever price the pharmacies wound up paying to get the drug from the wholesalers for. Any way you cut it, the wholesalers are making some money. Okay … now we get to the part where we’re figuring out how much the patient or the plan sponsor will pay to pick up that drug that started at the pharma manufacturers and went to the wholesalers and now is at the pharmacy. How much are the patients gonna pay? How much are the plan sponsors gonna pay? If you spend any time in the real world (not the drug supply chain world), what you’d expect to happen next is that the patient would go into the pharmacy and the pharmacist would charge a markup and/or a dispensing fee on the price that they bought the drug from the wholesaler for. That’d be normal. And this can be the case when patients pay cash. Listen to the show with Mark Cuban (, along with Ferrin Williams, PharmD, MBA), who started a pharmacy called Cost Plus Drugs. Get it? Their prices are cost plus. You have had other pharmacies for years doing similar things, like Blueberry in Pittsburgh. They get the drug. They buy it from a wholesaler or etc. But they buy the drug for some price, and then they sell it to their customers (ie, patients) at their cost plus. But most of the time in pharmacy supply chain world, things don’t work that way because many patients have insurance. When a patient walks into the pharmacy, someone has to figure out how much the patient owes and how much their insurance will cover, right? So, enter PBMs (pharmacy benefit managers). They originally started out doing this math (ie, adjudicating claims), figuring out what the out-of-pocket will be for the patient and then what the insurance will cover. Then drugs started to get really expensive and a few other developments, and then, all of a sudden, we have PBMs negotiating with Pharma for how much of a rebate the PBM is going to demand for the PBM to put the manufacturer drug on formulary. The PBM also is determining how much they will pay the pharmacy for said drug on behalf of plan sponsors, in addition to doing the math for how much the patient will pay. So, let me say that again because it kind of begs a “what now?” with eyebrows sky-high as the appropriate response to what I just said, especially if you think through the ramifications here, ramifications which I discuss at length with Vinay Patel (); Benjamin Jolley, PharmD (); Scott Haas (); Paul Holmes (); and others. So, again, the PBM is not just adjudicating claims. They are also negotiating rebates from Pharma so plan sponsors do not have to pay the full amount that the wholesalers paid Pharma and that the pharmacies paid the wholesalers, which maybe is a lot of money. The PBMs are like, “Hey, Pharma. You need to give me a piece of your action because we, the PBM, have big market power. I serve 100 million patients or something. So, if you want access to my 100 million lives, you gotta shell it out. You gotta shell me out some rebates.” So, fine, Pharma gives the PBM some amount of money in the form of a rebate. And it has to work that way, if you think about it, because the drug was originally sold to the wholesaler. You see what I’m saying? So, the pharma company has to give the PBMs a separate rebate amount. This is in addition to how much the PBM told the plan sponsor the plan sponsor owes for the drug, which is also paid to the PBM. But now, PBM is also still in charge of adjudicating the claim. So, they’re telling the pharmacy how much to charge the patient. Somehow or another also, the PBM also got itself in charge of deciding how much money the pharmacy itself would be reimbursed by that PBM. In the rest of the world, the pharmacy might tell the PBM, “Hey, this is the price.” But not in pharmacy supply chain world. In pharmacy supply chain world, the PBM tells the pharmacy how much it’s gonna pay. The end. And this, my friends, is how so often pharmacies get themselves in the pickle of having to pay the wholesaler one price to get the drug while they get reimbursed a totally different price to dispense the drug. And because independents have very little negotiating leverage on actually either side of that equation, they so very often buy high and sell low. Please listen to the shows with Benjamin Jolley () and Vinay Patel (), where we get into this in a lot of detail. But I just want to emphasize this point: All of that whole drug supply chain I just went through, where the manufacturer sells to the wholesaler who sells to the pharmacy and the PBM pays the pharmacy and the patient is paying something and the plan sponsor is paying something—many of the middleman transactions in there happen under the cover of darkness a lot of times. If I’m a plan sponsor, do I have any idea how much the PBM paid the pharmacy for any particular drug? Unless you’re good at looking at the NADAC numbers (more on this coming up), no. I do not have any idea what a fair price for that drug actually is and how much people are making on the back of that drug as it goes through the supply chain. And this, my friends, is how come spread pricing can exist. Because spread pricing is when the PBM charges the plan sponsor more than they are paying the pharmacy, pocketing the difference, and then calling what they pocket a trade secret—even if it’s the plan sponsor whose butt is on the line to make sure that what the PBM is pocketing is fair and reasonable compensation. I mean, if only J&J had listened to this show (). Here’s a link to the , which is about J&J paying ridiculous amounts in spread pricing. If what I just said is really confusing, I’m gonna validate that and say, “Yeah, it is really confusing.” And to a certain extent, that might be the main point. Where there’s mystery, there’s margin and all of that. Here’s what Dawn Cornelis said on in response to an article about the lawsuit: “Data accessibility lies at the heart of mitigating a fiduciary lawsuit. It all begins with gaining access to your data. But let’s be clear—it’s not an easy feat. The major hurdle? Procuring accurate data from your TPA [third-party administrator]. And that’s just the first step. The subsequent challenge involves analyzing this data, a task best handled by a skilled healthcare data analyst—yet another formidable undertaking.” The one acronym in this whole stew that is not questionable at all is the NADAC. So, let’s talk about the NADAC for a moment, the National Average Drug Acquisition Cost Price Benchmark. I was really thrilled to get Luke Slindee to be my guest today—or one reason I was so thrilled—is because Luke works for the accounting firm who, on behalf of CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) and the federal government, administers this NADAC, the National Average Drug Acquisition Cost. (Here’s a good if you’re interested.) In brief, NADAC was jointly developed by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, and it calculates the average price that pharmacies pay for prescription drugs. NADAC is based on a retail price survey. My guest today, as aforementioned, is Luke Slindee. He is a second-generation pharmacist. His family owned a pharmacy in Minnesota when he was growing up. Now he is a senior pharmacy consultant for Myers and Stauffer, which is the accounting firm that calculates the NADAC Price Benchmark on behalf of CMS and the federal government. Also mentioned in this episode are ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; and .   For additional information, go to . You can also follow Luke on .   Luke Slindee, PharmD, is a second-generation pharmacist with a background in independent pharmacy, chain pharmacy, data analytics, and prescription drug pricing. He currently supports public drug pricing transparency benchmarks and is an advocate for pharmacy reimbursement reform and antitrust enforcement in healthcare.   09:52 Why is it important for plan sponsors to understand the going rate for every point in the supply chain? 10:21 How do manufacturers come up with a list price? 10:40 What does AWP stand for? 10:59 What does WAC stand for? 11:06 How are AWP and WAC numbers chosen by the manufacturer? 13:22 What is the difference between AWP and WAC? 14:54 How much are wholesalers paying to manufacturers? 16:43 How much is the pharmacy paying for branded drugs from a wholesaler? 17:34 Why might pharmacies be buying drugs for less than what wholesalers are paying? 18:17 by Benjamin Jolley, PharmD, on this topic. 19:22 with Joey Dizenhouse. 20:33 Why do things get weird when a PBM gets involved? 21:58 How does all of this work for generic manufacturers? 25:20 with Steven Quimby, MD. 26:15 How did Civica Rx come about? 32:21 What’s the difference between the NADAC and the AWP value? 36:04 Luke discusses the downstream effects to pharmacies.   For additional information, go to . You can also follow Luke on .   Luke Slindee discusses #followingthedollar through #WAC, #AWP & #NADAC on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #healthcareleadership #healthcaretransformation #healthcareinnovation   Recent past interviews: Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode! , , , , , , , , ,