The media landscape is in turmoil. It may not be exactly the turmoil we hear about, though, based on research release in a new Poynter Institute report. For example, it is taken as gospel that “people don’t trust the media,” but a survey finds that’s not necessarily accurate. Local news reporters, for example, are highly trusted, mainly because they have established relationships in the community. That supports a broader notion: These days, connection matters more than credentials, for better or for worse, leading to the rise of the “newsfluencer,” who can be anybody from an experienced journalist with a Substack newsletter to a citizen journalist with no training to a provocateur who is able to build an audience.

If your job involves getting coverage for your company’s news or brand, what was once a straightforward assignment is now a complex maze full of mines. Should you get your CEO onto a podcast? Elevate a frontline employee with a strong personal brand to help get the word out? Start sharing information in small social communities? Or any of dozens of other options?

Neville and Shel delve into this one aspect of the OnPoynt Report in this short midweek episode.

Links from this episode:

• OnPoynt Report – Poynter
• Christopher Penn on LinkedIn
• Mayra Báez on LinkedIn
• Journalism, media, and technology trends and predictions 2025

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, January 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw transcript:

Hi everyone, and welcome to for immediate release. This is episode 4, 4 5. I’m Neville Hobson. And I’m Shell Holtz. And we have been reporting here over the last several episodes about the changing media landscape since communicators rely on media to get the word out. , that’s the heart of media relations, right?

It’s an important topic to address the Pointer Institute. Is one of the organizations engaged in research into the massive changes that the media are experiencing. If you haven’t heard of them, the Pointer Institute for Media Studies is a nonprofit journalism school and research organization based in St.

Petersburg, Florida. They own the Tampa Bay Times newspaper and the International Fact Checking network. Where they operate PolitiFact, they just released their on point. That’s P-O-Y-N-T, of course, because that’s how you spell pointer. The on point report, which sheds light on the evolving landscape of media relations.[00:01:00]

The report offers a lot of useful insights. Into how technology and shifting public perceptions are reshaping the way organizations interact with the media. So we thought we would dive into that today, starting with a look at the changing media landscape On point highlights a significant transformation in the media environment.

Traditional news outlets are contending with declining. Circulation and viewership. While digital platforms and social media have surged as primary news sources, this includes things like substack newsletters, and of course journalists are writing these as a way to reach people, but. Other professionals are too without journalistic training, and so are activists and conspiracy theorists.

Anybody can start one. All you need is a credit card. I read a LinkedIn post by Myra Baez an audience strategist who pointed out that the Washington Post has laid off most of its PR team. They wrote that talent driven journalism is the future of media and personalities [00:02:00] and creators will lead the way.

Myra says that the post is creating a star talent unit and that Al Jazeera plus experimented with this, I guess she used to work there more than a decade ago, intertwining the organization’s brand with journalists’, personal brands for Al Jazeera plus’s, social media oriented journalism. And she said it worked.

We’ve entered the area. We’ve entered the era of news influencers and news creators. She wrote, it’s not just journalism. This trend spills over into other industries. Businesses are replacing traditional PR strategies with regular employees who bring strong personal brands. The era of faceless organizations is ending.

She wrote, and that’s a key point for business communicators, but she also notes. People aren’t differentiating between reporting and influencer content, and she says it doesn’t matter. It’s all about connection over credentials, she says. But , is it really, does the idea of a [00:03:00] professional journalist carry no weight anymore?

Do we really want a news influencer who’s only experience is on TikTok or Instagram to report a complex story? The same way somebody who studied journalism school in school and got experience working for professional editors can now maybe I’m old, but I don’t think so. But that doesn’t mean there’s no value out there with people telling stories in new.

In interesting ways in any case, this shift has led to a more fragmented media landscape where audiences access information from a multitude of channels, each with its own credibility and reach. So before we move on to the issue of trust in media, Neville any thoughts on the shift in the media landscape?

Yeah, I think it’s we quite a few actually, but I think just a couple. This is inevitable. It seems to me, given the state of things that we see all around us, the signals are, there have been for a while that this shift is coming and it’s su not sudden. It’s little by little. It’s gradually been [00:04:00] approaching.

I think it’s interesting that, the shift is it? It’s more a question, generationally based in terms of preferences of where people want to get their news and information from. If that’s not, I. Front and center of the strategies of media organizations. I think they’re gonna be in trouble because this is this is about gi giving people stuff that retains them and engages with them.

And that’s different generationally. Now, as we know you and I are in that that lovely group called the Boomers, right? And you and I actually are utterly not . Like the stereotypical boomer. I certainly am not in terms of the things that interest me, the tools that I use and how I behave online, all that kind of thing.

Yet most people are they’re true to form in that regard. And you’ll find that not just in journalism, but in politics and a ton of other things that will, we may touch on some of that. So I think. This trend is inevitable. It’s already underway. We’re seeing some interesting [00:05:00] things happening.

And indeed the point of report is rich with insights on where this is going. We need to as communicators. Be fully aware of this and not try and not understand it because you have to understand it if you wanna know who your audiences are and where they’re at and how you will reach them.

And the same with the journalists that you need to catch. I was thinking about TikTok reading about that today and what’s going on in the US about, are they gonna be banned from the America and all this kind of stuff, and yet. TikTok, those two words cropping up in news reports daily about a place where this or that is happening, and therefore, does it make sense to ban them?

That’s political drive. I get that. So though you are gonna alienate a lot of your audience if you do that in the United States. But that’s slightly separate topic. But it makes me think of these shifts that are happening and you have to be completely on top of . The developments and pay attention to them.[00:06:00]

So yeah, lot’s happening. Absolutely. And to your point with generations. Yeah, absolutely. I think that boomers are probably still reading print newspapers by and large. Yeah. There is a risk though, in assuming that I. Any cohort is a monolith. I think one of the characterizations we hear of boomers is not very tech savvy.

And yet it was boomers who invented the internet. Let’s not forget that, that people like Bennett surf boomers. And you look at somebody like. James Licklider, who was involved with darpa and the effort to create the packet switching that invented the, he preceded boomers. He was part of that greatest generation that came before, so I think there’s danger in assuming too much about any one cohort, but definitely look at those characteristics and what media they’re using.

I think it’s worth noting, just as sort an aside here to mention that those folks who we see as boomers, Vince s being one, wasn’t a boomer. Meaning he wasn’t gray hair [00:07:00] and white bearded when he did all this stuff. He was quite a young guy. Tim Burners Lee, another one. He was in his thirties when he invented the World Wide Web.

Yep, just a point. So keep in mind the, there are very tech savvy boomers. Yeah. Out there and older. Let’s talk about trust in media because that’s a pivotal focus of the report. Public confidence in media institutions has been waning influenced by factors such as perceived biases. A lot of that is politically driven misinformation and the rapid spread of fake news, which I think we’re at greater risk of because of.

This erosion of trust poses challenges for organizations striving to convey their messages effectively through any media channels. And yet, 83% of people say local news outlets are at least somewhat important to the wellbeing of their local community.

69% say local journalists in their area are mostly in touch with their community, and 71% say local journalists are reporting news accurately. Now, how does that square with the idea that . People don’t trust [00:08:00] the media. And the answer to that is the media is not a monolith. As the on point report notes, people are more likely to trust people they know journalists to news organizations are most trusted when they develop relationships with customers, donors, business partners, and sources.

And there’s a growing number of local news and topic oriented sites. On the us The On Point report says three new ones are launching every month on average. Are we targeting. These with solid content. Neville, your thoughts on trust in media. It’s shifted. The old definitions are changing. What do we mean by trust?

I think that’s a good thing as it evolves, but it’s very interesting the point you mentioned in the pointer report about the word media is too broad and as, as they say, and the word trust is too broad and inexact. And I think that’s absolutely right. Word of this phrase of distrust of media I agree with pointed that it tends to look at a [00:09:00] huge picture, not the local scene.

And you hear this anecdotally a lot, don’t you? And you’ve referenced it even that people may not trust that particular organization, but hey, where I live and how I relate to them, they’re wonderful. And that’s a, that’s. It sums it up really, doesn’t it? So it’s good to see this is, I believe something important to pay attention to and be part of that shift and understand it so that you are able to engage with people as this whole thing shifts.

In terms of trust, yeah I really was taken by this focus on local journalism. I have been, as I don’t know if everybody listening knows that my degree is in journalism way back when print was print, newspapers and radio were the only options available to you. But I have been very concerned about the closing of so many.

Local community newspapers because you need somebody to sit in the school board meeting and report on [00:10:00] that in the zoning commission meeting to report on that. If there’s no public oversight of these institutions, then they can just do whatever they want behind closed doors. So I’m heartened to see these local news sites opening.

I don’t know how rigorous their journalism is, but there’s an opportunity there. There’s that old expression that all politics is local. Maybe all media relations is local too. So I think we need to look at these as opportunities for getting our word out through journalists who are trusted.

By the local community and find the local angles to our stories. And by the way, AI should be able to help with that. If we need to crank out, our, pitches for 50 different geographic regions, that could take a lot of time if you’re trying to do that manually. Yeah I think I would add to that, maybe this is just in the uk, but I suspect not in that the media, local media and this is a very broad observation and [00:11:00] it is just that an opinion observation.

That, what I certainly note is that the online versions of newspapers here tend to be dominated by a handful of very big companies, won a lot of titles, and they are driven by . Ads popups it’s hard to see news stories. And when you go to a website that’s your local newspaper website, you are just overwhelmed with the advertising and the promotional stuff to actually see the story.

So you tend not to go. So I often wonder, when I do go and encounter all this stuff, how can they keep in business for God’s sake? Because surely circulation the really, the, what do you call it, the visitors must be declining, but I guess not. Print the actual print. It’s hard to find newspapers outside of the old traditional news agents.

In the supermarkets. Local ones tend to be free giveaways now, so I don’t think they have the credibility anymore. That’s my own perception. That said where I live in Somerset, in England, the local papers here are actually quite [00:12:00] enjoy, but they’re very good at reporting local news. The only trouble is, so the journalism’s good.

The only trouble is it’s in, is the medium in which that journalism is published with all the ads and the, and it’s not an, not a pleasant user experience, I find. Yeah. I took a look in the on point study. They listed a bunch of these. Relatively new local news sites. Yeah. And it was heartening to see that they weren’t riddled with ads.

These are I’m gathering efforts by people who are passionate Yeah. About getting local news out there and not looking, they’re not media moguls looking to sell a lot of advertising, probably just looking to cover their costs. And, there’s probably a lot of volunteer. Citizen journalists who are saying, yeah, I’ll go to that zoning commission meeting and sit in and write a report.

Again I worry about the quality of journalism people knowing what sources to reach out to how to do an investigation. [00:13:00] I remember when I was working for a daily newspaper I led an investigation. It was into, corruption, the county level. But I had to know how to go to the county office and get the right records and sit there with a ruler and go down every line and take the right notes and document all of this, which is something I learned in journalism school.

You wonder if somebody who says, yeah, I’ll go to the zoning commission meeting, even thinks to do something like that as opposed to just taking the notes and reporting what they heard. But something is better than nothing and it could evolve into something more I suppose. Let’s talk about the implications of all of this for media relations.

That’s the connection to the theme of this podcast. The report underscores a number of implications for media relations professionals. One you already referenced, Neville Diversified outreach. Relying solely on traditional media is no longer adequate. Organizations need to engage with a variety of platforms including digital outlets, blogs, podcasts.

Did I mention [00:14:00] podcasts? . And social media influencers and news influencers. In an. In order to reach their target audiences effectively. And I wonder how many PR agencies, not to mention in-house PR teams are thinking about the need to undergo this transformation. Then there’s authenticity and transparency in an era of skepticism.

Being genuine and transparent is crucial. Audiences are more likely to trust organizations that communicate openly and honestly, acknowledging both successes and challenges. And here again, is an opportunity . Employees who have strong personal brands representing the organization.

Rather than being a faceless organization, we need to build direct relationships. With the rise of social media organizations have the opportunity to establish direct connections with our audiences. This direct engagement can help build trust and foster a sense of. Community and of course embracing technology.

Leveraging technological tools such as data analytics and AI [00:15:00] can enhance the effectiveness of media relations strategies. They can help in understanding audience preferences, predicting trends, and crafting personalized messages. So in terms of media relations, devil thoughts. You’ve nailed it. I think she

I think pointer talks about a pointer which makes sense to me. Media organizations that can adeptly blend compelling narratives with captivating audio and visual elements will emerge as industry leaders shaping news consumption, generating new revenue, and refining the boundaries of journalism.

So they gotta expand their skill sets of their journalists to get there. So it’s not a single thing that needs to happen. There’s quite a bit that needs to happen there. And for communicators to understand this from a media relations point of view, there are changes there too, to be in step with what is happening as pointer mentions.

So it is quite interesting you mentioned podcasts earlier, and one of the trends they talk about is that what. [00:16:00] News publishers are planning to produce more of 47% of them more podcasts. Okay. That’s beaten by newsletters. It’s 52% and video by 64%. But guess what? They’re not planning to produce more of articles, traditional articles.

Yeah. 0%, 0% produce more articles. Yeah. Now, equally interesting just to me to mention this, that pointer sites the data for that, those metrics. It’s global. They talk to media leaders. They say 56 countries. This is for Reuters Institute of Journalism Report last year. The journalism media and technology trends and productions.

1. The 2025 version has just come out literally the other day. I was glancing through it the other day. It’s fascinating some of the stuff, so I need to read it properly. That’s probably gonna be a top one of my topics on a monthly episode, by the way. It’s interesting it’s mentioned here in that way, and I think that like all the things that they’re talking about here that you and I are discussing each of us as [00:17:00] communicators need to be paying very close attention to these shifts that are happening.

Even the ones that are just trends that might happen in six months or whatever it might be. This is a part of the evolution, if you will, of of what’s happening in the overall media landscape. I think there’s so much to. Grapple with this that you need to decide what you’re gonna pay attention on and you need some help with that probably.

So Pointers report is a good place to start I think. Yeah, it is. And in terms of podcasts, I think being able to pitch a media outlet for its podcast is something we’re going to need to start doing, but I. Certainly wouldn’t limit myself to media podcasts. I would look at the podcasts the media are quoting.

This is something we talked about last week, is you’re seeing people quoted from, Zuckerberg was quoted just the other day from his interview on Joe Rogan’s podcast. Yeah. There are podcasts that have large followings that. [00:18:00] People are appearing on and then being quoted by the Washington Post and the New York Times and the Chicago Tribune.

So podcasting like TikTok is now becoming a source of news. Used to be Twitter at one point a little less these days and more the podcasts and TikTok. Yeah. And in fact the the 2025 version of that Reuters report that I mentioned talks about that in the context of growth of social media platforms that are gonna get media attention, Twitter or XI should say, is at the bottom, literally blue sky.

TikTok forgotten the other one, the three one. That ones that caught my attention. But Blues scum in particular thread are right up there. No threads. Threads are off. The chart almost is down there with X. Not, they don’t see threads. They don’t see threads as I, I suspect I, my interpretation, they don’t see threads as mattering much in the future.

I was actually grappling to try and find the chart that I referenced, but I can’t lay [00:19:00] my hands on it in a second. But it’s interesting. We are seeing that. Prediction happening, and indeed you can get some indicator of that. The x the media attention on XI saw a story that two days ago that academia generally speaking broadly, 60 academic institutions across Germany and Austria are quit.

Twitter gone. They’re out. Yep. They’re talking about government agencies in Germany leaving XX, not Twitter x. And some media organizations are stepping up their moves elsewhere. So Blue Sky is not the only destination people are going to. We are seeing this. Gaining momentum, I think it seems to me and the influence to a lot of it, of course, is what’s happening in the United States, in the political landscape.

We have a new president taking office formally in a week’s time as we’re recording this on 20th January. So all of that, it’d actually be interesting she to see as a kind of a related side. What media did to pay attention to on the 20th of January. The u the usual suspects, [00:20:00] of course, ’cause they’re not going away the mainstream broadcast media, but you’re gonna see live broadcast coverage coming from all sorts of places that you might not even have thought of.

So you, you will be able to encounter that kinda thing wherever you are online. I’m pretty certain of that. That’s not much different to what’s already been happening, but maybe it’s intensifying. And it could be that . You’ll find influencers and people described that way in the United States certainly will be reposting, stuff like that.

And so you’ll have discussions going on and opinions being shaped and formed and published and quoted upon. So it’s gonna be pretty much a wild west landscape, I would say. It is, and everybody’s going to walk away with a different perception based on confused on what media they’ve consumed. Unlike the old days when everybody watched Walter Cronkite and got the same information.

Yeah. Which leads us to some strategic recommendations and, we’re talking about social media. One of these strategic recommendations is to prepare for the end of public. [00:21:00] Social media, it’s a caveat. This is not something that’s going to happen tomorrow, but Chris Penn mused on LinkedIn that AI slop and bots might take down public social media because as he wrote, the only ones left will be bots talking to each other.

He suggested that you make your plans now for a future where your social networking is out of the public eye in private places where people in your circle. Of trust, provide the support and connection you crave. And if you’re a marketer, prepare for a future where public social media is no longer a driver of any kind of business.

Interesting post from Chris and I don’t disagree with it, but again, I don’t think this is something that’s gonna happen imminently. This is going to happen gradually as those AI bots start yeah. Taking over. But I. A couple of other strategic recommendations. Invest in media literacy educating both internal teams and the public about media literacy can help in discerning credible information from misinformation, thereby fostering a more [00:22:00] informed audience.

1. Cultivate media relationships, right? Building and maintaining strong relationships with journalists and media outlets and news influencers is essential. Understanding their needs and providing valuable newsworthy content can enhance your media coverage. And then there’s crisis preparedness in this particular information environment.

Having a robust. Crisis plan is not an option. You have to be prepared to respond quickly and effectively to negative publicity that can come from just about anywhere now. That can, mitigate potential damage. There’s a ton of information and data in this report. There’s a whole section on AI that we didn’t even touch on.

Yeah. But Neville, any concluding thoughts? I was thinking you mentioned about building relationships with journalists. And one thing I started doing is paying attention to media organizations who are publishing a list of journalists active on Blue Sky as part of these new startup packs that Blue Sky enabled.

I’ve seen probably a dozen different media organizations across Europe. Started doing [00:23:00] this and some specialist trade publications, particularly in in the pharma, in healthcare those are available sources. You don’t have to go digging for this kind of stuff, listing all those folks. Now, it’s not to say that you get them and you start spamming them with messages on the social network.

You’ll soon know that’s absolutely not the way to do this. Some probably will though. But there’s a great. Place to gain that. And of course, no one else is doing this in other platforms. So that’s gonna give Bluesky advantage as people start building out their approach to connecting with with journalists and others of interest.

So it’s a useful tool, by the way, and there’s some other tools where you can convert them into actual lists even more valuable. So those are the things you need to take advantage of because it will give you an advantage in doing things that way. Absolutely. The link to the report and to the LinkedIn posts that I referenced, the one from Maya Baez and from Chris Penn are gonna be in the show notes and that will be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release.

The post FIR #445: Media Relations in a Turbulent Media Landscape appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle the challenges of staffing, particularly in response to landing a large contract.

They discuss a Reddit user’s question about managing a $2 million account and emphasize the importance of involving key team members throughout the business development process, rather than afterward.

The hosts advocate for a tiered approach to staffing, employing a mix of high, medium, and low experience levels, and leveraging contractors to manage workload peaks. They also highlight the risks of rapid, large-scale hiring and suggest regular networking and preemptive interviewing to maintain a robust pipeline of candidates. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 256: Mastering Client Staffing for Small Agency Success appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

Media outlets around the world — and in particular in the U.S. — are strategizing how to cover the incoming Trump Administration. Some are even planning to shift their focus to more soft news in order to retain readers and avoid drawing the president’s ire. We look at the implications for the media relations industry in this short midweek episode.

Links from this episode:

• How publishers are strategizing for a second Trump administration: softer news and more social media
• The Trump to-do list: How communicators are getting ready for the MAGA takeover
• Communicating Successfully Amid Political and Social Dissent

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, January 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw transcript:

Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 444 4 4 4 of four immediate release. I’m Shell Holtz. And I’m Neville Hobson As we record this episode on the 8th of January. It’s just under two weeks until Donald Trump prepare assumes the US presidency. That’s 20th of January is the inauguration day.
That’ll be a second term for him. We’ve got a story about news publishers that face the challenges of unpredictability and polarization. These realities necessitate strategic shifts to adapt to a fast-paced, erratic political environment for US-based news publishers. The challenges of covering Trump’s second term are particularly acute.
The fast-paced, unpredictable nature of his administration will require editorial agility as well as innovative strategies to sustain engagement in a politically charged environment. However, the implications of a second Trump [00:01:00] administration extend far beyond US borders capturing the attention of publishers and communicators worldwide.
We’ll explore this topic right after this message.
From Europe to Asia, global audiences are deeply invested in the ripple effects of American policies and political rhetoric on international markets, diplomacy and cultural trends. International publishers such as the BBC and the Independent, are recalibrating their strategies to engage North American audiences.
While communicators and multinational corporations are preparing for how Trump’s leadership might shape global narratives. Requiring alignment across diverse regions and stakeholders for publishers. According to a report by Digiday this week, the focus is twofold, balancing hard news coverage with softer lifestyle oriented content and engaging audiences more deeply through social media and interactive platforms.
Publishers like Newsweek and the Independent are prioritizing lifestyle content, not [00:02:00] only to attract diverse audiences, but also to create safer advertising spaces amidst a politically charged landscape. Enhanced social media monitoring and staffing changes reflect the need to keep pace with Trump’s activity patterns, particularly on platforms like Truth, social, and X tools like polls.
Ask me anything. Sessions and comment management are being deployed to foster community interaction while gathering valuable first party data. At the same time, publishers are grappling with the toll of covering a Trump led news cycle. The relentless nature of his previous term was described as a gushing river of news prompting concerns about staff burnout and long-term sustainability.
Despite these challenges, the potential for increased readership and revenue from a busy news cycle remains a motivating factor with publishers seeing opportunities in the heightened public attention that Trump presidency typically generates. On the other side of the communications fence, the emphasis for corporate communicators lies in preparing for Trump’s hallmark [00:03:00] unpredictability now amplified by the controversial team he’s assembling.
Notably, Elon Musk’s significant influence within this new administration has already introduced an unprecedented dynamic. Musk is known for his polarizing public persona and unfiltered approach to communication and his involvement as a layer of complexity that communicators have never faced in a government context.
This combination of leadership styles demands rapid response capabilities, and scenario planning At an unparalleled level, teams must ensure messaging, clarity, and internet. Sorry. An internal alignment to navigate sudden shifts in public discourse with misinformation, polarizing policies and unconventional decision making, likely to dominate the agenda, proactive communication strategies and robust risk mitigation plans.
Are essential to maintain credibility and public trust in this uncharted environment. The shared challenges of unpredictability and audience polarization highlight the importance of adaptability [00:04:00] across both sectors. For publishers, this means finding a balance between hard news and softer content to attract readers and advertisers alike.
For communicators, it involves crafting agile strategies that enable swift. Pivots while maintaining coherence and transparency. Both sectors must also address the human cost of this rapid pace, safeguarding the wellbeing of staff as they navigate the demands of a divisive and volatile political landscape.
To restate what I said earlier, this is the global picture. In essence, the coming months will test the resilience and creativity of publishers and communicators alike. Success will depend on their ability to stay nimble, engage their audiences meaningfully, and weather the unique pressures of covering and responding to a Trump presidency.
And let’s also mention the news this week about meta and its fact-checking overhaul on its social networks to replace content moderators with community notes similar to X. None of this is a stroll in the park shell for anybody. Absolutely not. And I think the move by [00:05:00] and Mark Zuckerberg is emblematic of what we’re seeing.
From a number of different types of media that are, let’s face it, running scared. On the newspaper side, you have the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post refusing to make presidential endorsements. Their editorial teams wanted to, the publishers, the owners, and that includes Jeff Bezos Amazon’s founder.
Chairman of the board, who’s the owner of the Washington Post said, we’re not going to make a presidential endorsement because clearly they were gonna invoice endorse Kamala Harris. And you also had the Washington Post recently experienced the departure of a very popular political cartoonist. When the editor in chief declined to run one of her cartoons, for the first time ever, the cartoon showed Jeff Bezos kneeling at the feet of.
Donald Trump and she said that kind of, I don’t remember her exact words, but the [00:06:00] spirit of it was that the cowardice displayed here is something she didn’t wanna be part of. Now the editor said, no, it wasn’t about that. It was the fact that we’ve done two reports on this and another one coming up and we just didn’t wanna overdo it.
But that’s suspicious. To me. So I think you have a lot of media that are proactively capitulating and abdicating their responsibility to report accurately or as they would with any other president in office. The other side of this is that you have Trump suing media. And this is a way to get around the First Amendment if somebody says something you don’t like.
The first real experience we had with that wasn’t Trump, it was Peter Thiel suing Gawker out of existence over, I remember that, their publication. But now you have Trump just got a $15 million settlement from A, B, CA, B. C can afford it. But now he has filed a lawsuit against the Des Moines Register [00:07:00] over the.
Poll that they ran. This is a highly lauded poll. In fact, when they talk about this particular presidential poll, they say it is one of the most highly regarded in the entire country. It was wrong. Most of the polls were wrong. Most of the polls were wrong four years ago. There are reasons that the polls are not as accurate as they used to be, that we could get into another time if we ever do an episode about polling and research.
But he’s suing over the fact that it. Reported that Harris was going to win in Iowa. She did not. So you have this ability to sue media out of existence and put an end to that kind of reporting. Now you consider the fact that what you’re seeing out of Trump and his followers in the Republican party.
Is an effort to rewrite history, and this gets to be very dangerous. When I talk about rewriting history, the most obvious example is recasting. What happened on January 6th, [00:08:00] 2020 as a Day of love, and. Shoving to the side and trying to eliminate from the public consciousness the fact that 20 police officers were, I think that number may be wrong, but a lot of the Capitol police were injured, five died.
Yeah. This was a violent assault that a lot of those people were carrying weapons and they’re rewriting that history. And if we don’t have the newspapers to report the facts and the other media. There’s going to be some serious issues that will follow. Yeah I think therein lies one of the big issues, frankly, which is the facts according to who.
The, you know the phrase, there’s never a single version of the truth. Whose version of the truth are you gonna listen to? There are now in light of these changes with this president coming in the social network he owns plus the one that Musk owns really causing interference with that.
But there’s some interesting aspects to this. According to Dig Day’s report in terms of how some of the mainstream [00:09:00] media are planning to report the news and engage with their audiences. And this I found most interesting. For instance, they give an analysis here from one of the publications that talks about.
The tension they give to Trump on social networks, they’re noting he’s typically active when the journalists are not. Night journalists are not there. The people who are monitoring according to Digiday tend to be the more junior, less experienced people. So they need to shift that around to, to be able to respond or plan for how to respond to Trump when he is up at 2:00 AM.
Ranting that is part of the landscape. The guy, this is what the guy does. And I would imagine others will be doing similar. Newsweek is quoted as saying that what they’re planning to do with Trump being elected is I. Have more interactivity with their readership on social networks and in the comments to their site.
They’ve been building that up a bit. They talk that they say they’ve expanded their social team. They hired a community manager in October to oversee onsite [00:10:00] engagement, to manage comments and to conduct reader polls. So that kind of thing is being ramped up quite significantly. They say Newsweek receives an average of eight to 10,000 comments.
Every single day across all its content. So they’re gonna leverage the engagement with those commenters more than they have done in the past. So that’s I guess to me that means that’s one way of building better connections with your audience and maybe they’ll listen to you more and repeat your side of the story rather than what the other guys are gonna be doing all the time.
So that’s interesting. I think also. Newsweek, the independent, the uk newspaper that has a strong focus on North America and the Huffington Post as well, told Digiday they’re gonna focus on softer, more lifestyle focused news content in 2025. And they say that this strategy can help boost traffic.
So many days. The discovery, the majority of their audience comes from Google Discover according to Newsweek. And that platform favors increasingly softer [00:11:00] lifestyle and consumer focused content. And Digiday notes. He’s not the only one coming to that conclusion. So rather than simply hard news reporting, they’re going to focus on stuff that I guess adds comfort to the readers in the face of all the disruption that’s likely to be the case.
That’s a really interesting approach. I wonder what. Communicators are gonna think of that in terms of what they’re planning in using the mainstream media and their engagement with journalists, et cetera. What do you think about that, Sean? Think that we as communicators need to seriously think about what’s going on.
In the media. Media in terms of our relationships with them, if they’re doing softer news in order to gin up subscriptions and make money as opposed to fulfill their obligations as journalists. And let’s say you are a PR person working representing an organization that. Attacked and the attack against you [00:12:00] a political one may not be justified.
It may not be based in fact it’s hard to. Disprove a negative though, right? Or to prove a negative that we didn’t do this, we’re not this and the relationships that we have built up with the media in the past I don’t know how well those serve us if these publications are shifting their emphasis away from this kind of reporting to fluff as I would call it.
So yeah, I, I think as we’re. Proactively and I’m hopeful that organizations are proactively developing their crisis plans for this. Even if you have differentiated. Clearly those things that you will engage in publicly and those things where you are going to remain silent. You should be considering your vulner vulnerabilities.
Where might we be attacked by somebody from the other side of the political spectrum and what crisis plans can we put in place in order to [00:13:00] address those? If the media is shifting its emphasis away from this kind of coverage. We need to find other ways to get those messages out, whether it’s getting onto podcasts or doing TikTok.
Clips or, flooding blue sky and threads and the like. I don’t know. This is something I’m going to be thinking seriously about. I don’t suspect the organization I work for is gonna be subject to much of this. It’s just not the nature of the organization. But on the other hand, I don’t wanna be blindsided either.
Yeah. So I am gonna put together a group from our legal and HR team to start thinking about these things and be ready if any of it, rolls down our way. Yeah I think there is a a clear and present risk of the environment changing so radically that it’s hard to plan for it when you’re not sure how it’s gonna change.
All you know is there are forces at play that will become official on the 20th of January, and my feeling [00:14:00] based on simply what I’m just observing others saying in the mainstream media in particular. It will be like a you know, a gushing river again. There’s a quote in Digiday piece about a large news publication not named the head of social there saying that the news cycle during the Biden administration compared to Trump’s administration in his first term was like a slow stream versus a gushing river.
So the tap is on. There’s this constant stream of stuff coming your way. How do you navigate that? And that’s where they then lead into. Another issue they need to be highly cognizant of is the risk of burnout by the journalists and other people who work for these publications. So you gotta take that into account as well.
I think it’s good for the business side of news according to this unnamed publication, but the people side, we are gonna have to watch that. They said, I think we’re all gonna have to take care of each other as journalists in this environment. And that’s actually a good, I think a good thing to recognize the reality of this is what’s coming.
Yeah. I was having this [00:15:00] conversation with somebody yesterday and I’ll, reveal if it’s not already clear. My, my personal political leanings here, which I try not to do, we, you wanna appeal to all communicators with FIR, not just those who agree with us politically. I. But I have been reading reports about people on the left who are checking out.
They are, they’re burned out, they’re distressed, and they’re not paying attention to the news and they’re not engaging politically. And it was Edmund Burke who said that all it takes for evil to succeed is for. Goodman to do nothing. And that’s what worries me. It worries me about burned out journalists.
It worries me about people who were politically active, who are throwing up their hands and giving up. So yeah, this is a source of concern for me. I was reading something interesting. This was in an article by Matt Purdue strategist at Magnitude Inc. This was in PR daily.
The Reagan [00:16:00] publication and he was writing about what corporations can do to prepare for this. This is something that we discussed briefly in our December monthly episode. Yeah. But he had some data here that I thought was really interesting. ’cause one of his first points was to lean on your employee resource groups.
These are groups representing, people within your organization who share commonalities. You could have a black employee resource group. You could have a queer employee resource group, a Hispanic, whatever it may be. He said 73% of companies use their ERGs to communicate internally on societal issues, but only 41% hold regular meetings between ERGs and leadership to talk about these issues.
And only 11% have ERG representation. On leadership groups that make decisions about these issues. These are not clubs for these folks to get together. They are called resource groups because they are supposed to be resources to the organization. And I absolutely think that the communicators [00:17:00] and organizations can help facilitate that.
And during these turbulent four years. That we’re looking at. I think we should be leaning on those ERGs and at least calling them in for consultation when issues arise that are related to what binds them. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think what all of this says to me certainly is whatever your role in an organization as a communicator or whatever, your role in a mainstream media company as a communicator you need to be utterly aware of the wave that’s coming.
Way collectively in terms of what we communicate, how we communicate indeed be being clear on who our audiences are and where they are now. It’s hard to define that better than that. All I know is simply is a wave of. Change coming and much of it depending on your outlook. I think for mine, certainly [00:18:00] it’s not good what I see developing and that’s coming our way and you need to be on the case particularly, but not, certainly not exclusively if you work in an organization or you’re in an industry sector or something.
That attracts controversy or is involved in an industry that doesn’t have great public support and is a target for people like Trump, for instance. So if you are in the I dunno, in the fossil fuel in, actually fossil fuels, they probably support that. But if you are in, wind farms or whatever it might be you better be ready for the kind of bad guys to be very active and using.
Methods of communication that are certainly beyond the norm that we’ve been used to. You can already see the trajectory of insults and bad language and just general reactions to people in a negative way that are commonplace across some social networks. Now, how long will it be before it’s.
Everywhere, particularly on Meta’s properties collectively, which a stat I read this morning said there are 3 billion [00:19:00] people in the world use meta social media properties every single day. So what happens if the the discourse on those just turns just awful, just like x Then everything is shifting and it seems that we might be headed down that road according to events here.
Unknown yet. So keep an eye on what’s going on. That’s what I see. Yeah. Without question. It’s important to monitor how the, this is all affecting the media that we rely on to communicate as well as to gather information. I’m gonna have to make a time code because I had something I wanted to Oh, I remember.
Okay. So where am I? 20, right around 20 minutes. Yep. We recorded our 20th anniversary show recently. We’ve been doing this for 20 years. 20 years. And I, one of these days there will be an AI tool where we can point it at FIR and it will say how many times in an episode we said we don’t talk politics here.
And [00:20:00] it’s, I think, telling how significant this challenge is that it has led us to talk exclusively in an episode about. Politics that this could have a significant impact on our businesses and our ability to engage with our stakeholders especially as our stakeholders. Reflecting society in the US in particular grow more po, more polarized?
No, it’s not a good forecast. She, but it’s it, looking at it PAs dispassionately. If I, if it’s possible to do that. This is probably one of the most interesting. Times we could be in as communicators. Set aside, this is about a curse. May you live an interesting times. Yeah, we got the curse of it, no question.
But we’re in it and we can help navigate it for others and be prepared. The boy counts. Be prepared. We need to be on the case. Absolutely. And before we go just a note to listeners on a completely different topic, Neville, you today posted our [00:21:00] interview with Martin Waxman. Yes. We spoke with Martin in just before Christmas, the week before Christmas.
Martin’s a digital communication strategist. He’s a teacher. He has LinkedIn training courses. He’s a speaker based in Toronto. And he was, as we mentioned in that conversation, a part of inside PR and, lots of stuff here on podcast with others, Joe Thornley, Jenny Dietrich, and David Jones.
We had a chance to talk to him about AI and public relations and there were revelations of that conversation, shall I thought. Martin, very articulate speaker. He certainly knows a lot and he’s able to talk through many of the topics related to public relations in a way that are very credible and really good to listen to.
So that was published today, as you noted. And it’s up there. If you’re not subscribed to the FIR interviews feed, it’s not on the FIR main feed, it’s the FIR interviews feed. We’ll do so you can easily find that on your favorite podcast app or on the [00:22:00] website. Yeah. Also, if you are listening to us on the Marketing Podcast Network, the FIR.
I interview Feed is not part of MPN, so you’ll have to head over to FIR podcast network.com or find FIR interviews on your podcast app and that will be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release.

The post FIR #444: Preparing for Trump 2.0 appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this FIR Interview, recorded on 19 December 2024, Shel and Neville chat with Martin Waxman about the transformative impact of artificial intelligence on public relations. From relational AI and synthetic personas to crisis management and ethics, the discussion highlights opportunities and challenges for PR professionals. Martin shares insights from his academic research and LinkedIn Learning courses, offering practical advice for integrating AI into communication strategies while maintaining trust and human relationships.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Relational AI and AI Agents: How they are reshaping communication and trust in PR.
• AI applications beyond content generation: Synthetic personas, focus groups, message testing, and predictive analytics.
• Ethical considerations: Transparency, bias, and data privacy in AI-driven workflows.
• AI in crisis management: Combining AI’s monitoring capabilities with human empathy and judgment.
• Upskilling for the future: The importance of AI literacy and experimenting with AI tools in PR.
• Educational resources: Martin’s LinkedIn Learning course on generative AI for PR professionals.

About our Conversation Partner

Martin Waxman, MCM, APR, writes a popular ‘Digital Marketing Trends’ newsletter, conducts AI research and leads digital and AI training workshops. He’s a LinkedIn Learning instructor, adjunct professor at the York Schulich School of Business and associate director of the Future of Marketing Institute. Martin is also president of a consultancy, an instructor in the McMaster Master of Communications Management program and a member of the Institute for Public Relations Digital Media Research Center. He regularly speaks at events across North America.

Martin received the Institute for Public Relations Best Master’s Thesis Award in 2019, for his paper, “My BFF is a Chatbot” and the 2024 Thought Leader award from the Canadian Public Relations Society. He has a Master of Communications Management from McMaster-Syracuse Universities.

Follow Martin on LinkedIn
Follow Martin on Bluesky

Links from this Interview:

• Martin’s LinkedIn Learning course on ‘Generative AI for PR Professionals‘
• Martin’s courses on LinkedIn
• Digital Marketing Trends newsletter

The post Exploring AI’s Future in PR with Martin Waxman appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

2025 is sure to present a new set of challenges for communication professionals. Solving them will require creativity, innovation, and new thinking (which is not something AI can do!). This team of Fellows from the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC) will delve into breakthrough thinking, sharing ideas on how the creative process works. Discover how to find sources of inspiration while setting boundaries and allowing time for breaks. They will share thoughts about tools to push your thinking in new and innovative directions without exhausting yourself. Now is the time to learn the tips and tricks to fueling creativity even in the toughest moments.

The livestream, moderated by Shel Holtz, SCMP, is scheduled for 4 p.m. EDT on Thursday, January 16. Participants are encouraged to share questions, observations, and comments during the session, using YouTube’s comment feature. If you are unable to join us for the livestream, watch the video replay or listen to the audio podcast, both of which will be available shortly after the livestream ends.

About the panel:

Although Zora Artis began her career outside the communications field, she has had an outsize impact on the profession since entering it more than 20 years ago to as an account director and then strategic planner with branding and integrated marcomms agencies. Since then, she has led her own brand and communications consultancy and served as CEO of a 20-person creative, digital, and strategic communication firm. In 2019, formed her current management consulting practice bringing together strategic alignment, brand, and communication expertise. She has received five Gold Quill awards. Her significant contributions to the profession and the body of knowledge include her original research with IABC colleague, Wayne Aspland, on strategic alignment, the role of communications and leadership – the first substantial research effort for the reconfigured IABC Foundation – and co-authoring a subsequent white paper, “The Road to Alignment,” supported by 27 senior communicators from five continents. Zora has also researched the correlation between strategic alignment and experiences and the impact on stakeholder value and brand. This has led her to develop her own proprietary Alignment Experience Framework. She has also examined gender equity, perceptions, and bias in organizations, and wrote a chapter on this topic for the Quadriga University e-reader, Women in PR. Since joining IABC a decade ago, she has impacted IABC as a volunteer, including roles as chair of the IABC Asia Pacific Region and IEB director; she currently serves as the chair of the 2022 World Conference Program Advisory Committee. A certified company director, as chair of the IABC Audit and Risk Committee she introduced proper risk oversight to the board’s processes. Zora has been honored with the 2021 and the 2015 IABC Chair’s Award for Leadership and was named IABC’s 2020 Regional Leader of the Year. She is also a Strategic Communication Management Professional, Fellow of the Australian Marketing Institute, and Certified Practicing Marketer.

Diane Gayeski is recognized as a thought leader in the practice and teaching of business communications.  She is Professor of Strategic Communications at the Roy H. Park School of Communications at Ithaca College and provides consulting in communications analysis and strategies through Gayeski Analytics.  Diane was recently inducted as an IABC Fellow; she’s been active in IABC for more than 30 years as a featured speaker and think-tank leader at the international conference, the author of 3 editions of the IABC-published book, Managing the Communications Function, and the advisor to Ithaca College’s student chapter.  She’s led more than 300 client engagements for clients, including the US Navy, Bank of Montreal, Fiat, Sony, Abbott Diagnostics, and Borg-Warner, focusing on assessing and building the capacities and new technologies for workplace communications and learning teams.

Andrea Greenhous’s life’s purpose is to improve the world of work. For over 30 years, she has helped organizations improve the employee experience and build workplaces where people thrive. As founder and president of Vision2Voice, an internal communications agency, Andrea and her dedicated team help organizations adopt a strategic approach to employee communications to achieve results. Andrea has led initiatives and transformation projects for Fortune 500 technology companies, large government departments, and organizations as diverse as construction, biotech, finance, and higher education. This has led to a signature approach emphasizing harnessing employee voices and amplifying their insights and ideas.

Andrea is a storyteller, a PROSCI-certified change leader, and Dare to Lead trained based on the work and research of Brené Brown. She is also a certified Fearless Organization Practitioner. She uses the tools and processes developed by Amy C. Edmondson, the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School, to build psychological safety in teams. Andrea has been named one of the top 10 influencers in internal communications and is a frequent guest blogger and speaker at industry events.

Martha Muzychka, ABC, MC, speaks, writes, listens, and helps others do the same to make change happen. Martha is a strategic, creative problem solver seeking challenging communications environments where we can make a difference. She helps her clients navigate competing priorities and embrace communication challenges. Martha offers strategic planning, facilitation, consultation services, writing and editing, qualitative research, and policy analysis. Her work has been recognized locally, nationally, and internationally with multiple awards.

The post Sparking Creativity: IABC Fellows to Share Ideas for Breakthrough Thinking appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

For Immediate Release launched on January 3, 2005. Episode #1 explained what podcasting is, then looked at the role blogs played in the tsunami tragedy in Asia. On our 20th anniversary, Neville and Shel recall FIR’s origins and the many changes the show has undergone in two decades, some significant milestones, memorable moments, some of the challenges we have faced over the years, and other recollections. We will return to our normal programming next week.

Links from this episode:

• FIR Episode #1
• First mention of podcasting for business (Rex Hammock) in September 2024
• FIR Interview: Michael Whiley at GM on the GM Blog (February 22, 2005)
• FIR Interview with Steve Rubel (March 26, 2005)
• FIR #100 (January 5, 2006)
• FIR #191: Two Decades in 2.5 Hours (January 20, 2020)
• Pivoting the FIR Podcast (January 10, 2022)
• FIR at 19: A Milestone in Podcasting
• FIR #377: Two Decades of Podcasting (January 5, 2024)
• Podcast Statistics and Data, Buzzsprout
• The Future of Podcasting: 9 Trends for Creators & Companies”, Riverside
• “The Power of Podcasts: Why Every Business Needs a Voice in 2025”, One Zero Creative

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, January 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Raw transcript:

Hi everyone, and welcome to for immediate release. This is episode 4, 4 3. I’m Neville Hobson in the uk. And I’m she Holtz in the us. And if you didn’t recognize the opening the usual opening was not played today to introduce FIR. That’s the opening that we used when we were brand new. And today the day we are dropping this episode, January 3rd, 2025 is the 20th anniversary.

FIR. We launched this podcast on January 3rd, 2005. Neville. At the beginning you mentioned that this is episode 442, and that’s correct. In terms of the renumbering that I started some time ago we did 824 episodes behind before that. So this is actually episode number 1000. [00:01:00] 266, and that does not take into account the FIR interviews, the FIR book reviews, the FIR lives, and some of the other things that we have done, were probably up around I would say 1400 episodes of podcasting altogether in the 20 years.

We’ve been at this, and today what we’re gonna do is take a look back. We wanna just have a chat about what it’s been like these last 20 years and tell you how all of this came about where we’re at and where we’re headed. This all started with a conversation. In November of 2004 you had heard of podcasting Neville.

I had heard of podcasting. And both of us had started blogs because we had heard of them. Assumed that this was going to be something that, would be important in the world of communications and that the best way to learn about it and be responsive to [00:02:00] our clients about it. We were both I was consulting at the time and you were working for an organization out of the Netherlands.

We thought the best way to learn about it would be to do it. And having listened to a lot of podcasts, we thought that we would break the mold and have. Co-hosts rather than one person just going on and on into a microphone. There was one co-hosted podcast at the time. It was the Dawn and Drew show, I think.

I believe they were a husband and wife, and it was meant to be humorous and rude. And we wanted to give something back to the communications industry. So we decided to start. This we posted an MP three test file to make sure the technology would work more on that coming up in December of 2004, and then launched our first episode, which listening to now just makes me cringe on the 3rd of January.

It was cringeworthy 2005. Yeah, it was cringeworthy the audio quality, not too brilliant as we hear it today, but [00:03:00] at the time, not too bad. Yeah. Among other things, I remember the audio artifacts that you would get over Skype, but we’ll talk more about the technology in a bit. Yeah. Over the years, we have changed the frequency.

This is, this has been a very inconsistent podcast as you’ll hear we started off weekly and the more we went along, the longer the episodes got because of the. The number of things there were to talk about and how much there was going on in the world of communication and technology. So then we went bi-weekly and at some point we went back to weekly.

Then when we reinvigorated this podcast not too long ago, we decided that it would be. Monthly. And then we started doing these midweek episodes because there were things we wanted to talk about and not wait for the monthly episode. So this, that’s one of the changes we went through.

There, there were a lot as you noted. I [00:04:00] agree. I think the frequency thing was something we, as you say too, and froze with a lot. We, but we were back in those days and hasn’t really changed a lot I think. Bursting at the seams to talk about topics that interested us quite a bit.

And as you said, when we started I was actually transitioning out of the company I worked for, I was based in Amsterdam at the time that had been acquired by someone else, and my job had gone, so I was looking for. Things to do. I’d picked up some interesting consulting work on blogs at that time, and I was thinking about podcasting quite a bit, but like you said I certainly wasn’t keen in doing a solo thing, much more interest to have someone to talk to.

And then lo and behold, you and I talked. The rest is history, as they say. That was good. That’s right. And I should point out that we knew each other through I-A-E-B-C and had collaborated before on at an IABC conference when online communication was taking place through CompuServe in the PR and marketing forum in the [00:05:00] IEBC hyperspace section of the PR sig.

We. Coordinated a and an effort among all of the IABC members in that space who were at the conference to essentially live log that conference that was a conference in Boston at that time. So that was, that’s right. That was quite, that was a precursor to what was to come that we now know is FIR.

But I think the yeah, that was the first instance I can remember of anybody live talking. Yeah. Yeah, the thinking about the word podcasting, there’s a lot of talk about this. Oh it was invented by so and so back in 1990, whatever. And the first person to use it was X and all that kind of stuff.

What resonated with me, the first reference to business podcasting was by a guy called Rex Hammock, who was a very prominent blogger at the time, A CEO blogger. As it happened, ran his own company. I remember in September of 20 of 2004, he wrote a blog post, and I’ll read the section that he mentioned.

He said talking a bit about executive communication using [00:06:00] social media or blogs. No one had the term social media at that time. He said, I can see a much quicker adoption timeline for CEO podcasting than CEO blogging. Stick a microphone in front of a CEO and say, what would you like to tell your employees today?

You get a much quicker buy-in than sitting a keyboard in front of ’em and saying, blog A messages for the world to read. A word of warning to corporate communicator, type says Rex. Don’t script it for the CEO With podcasting voices, not a metaphor for writing in a conversational, believable fashion, voice is actually voice.

That’s 20 years ago. I think that still resonates today, shall don’t it. It does, although it turns out to only be semi prescient because podcasting certainly has taken off to the point that it’s influential in presidential elections now. But I would say the number of companies doing internal podcasting is still relatively low.

There’s not a lot of CEOs talking into microphones to record a podcast and sharing with their employees what they wanna share that day. [00:07:00] A couple of other changes in format that we went through. One when we started, we were doing interviews within our episodes, and as they got longer and longer, one of our first thoughts was if we started an interview podcast, then our show could just be us and.

The interviews can be in the interview feed. So we split that out and as I mentioned before, that led to book reviews and a feed we used to call speakers and speeches when we were able to record our talks or get permission to share other people’s talks that we thought were relevant to our audience. We also changed the format.

We started off calling it four immediate release but as we started these other shows and calling them FIR book reviews. FIR this and FIR that we decided to change the name of this show to the Hobson and Holtz report which continued up through episode 8 24. But that’s when you took a hiatus.

Work got very busy and I changed the format of the show where I was putting together a panel of communicators. Yeah, every week which [00:08:00] was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun. And then you joined me on a couple of those panels and then had a hankering to return to the show. Yeah, we, the hiatus started in 2015 where as you said it was a pretty a pretty busy, extremely challenging time.

And that was not long before I, I packed it all in and joined IBM which is was in the kind of wings as it were. And, but I had a, I did have a hankering, I was a guest on a couple of episodes in early 2017, and then we decided to get back together again. That was a, 2017 was a year I took off my dad had died and there was a lot of stuff going on.

So the timing from this contextual point of view was just right. And so we did that. And here we are. Here we are eight years on, still doing it. Oh one. One other thing to mention before we move on to a another related topic is that we have had a number of correspondence over the year. We. We don’t do that anymore.

But this began because we were getting audio comments from Lee Hopkins out of [00:09:00] Australia. And one day I said, if he keeps sending in these audio comments, we might as well just make him a correspondent. And then we, the next comment we got from him was, this is Lee Hopkins, your correspondent from started doing what was called the Asia report. And then when he wasn’t able to continue doing that, Michael Nestley stepped in and did, yeah. The Asia report. We also had regular reports from folks like Mark Story and David Phillips and Eric Schwartzman. Yeah. From Hollywood. Yeah, Michael Nesty was based in Singapore.

Lee was in, in Adelaide, in, in Australia. David Phillips is based here in the uk. Eric Schwar, as you said. In Hollywood. Mark, I think, was in Washington at that time. He was Eric’s now I believe in New York. I forget to not forget to mention Dan York, who’s the longest. Correspondent in this context, and he’s still with us filing his tech report every month.

He’s in the US East Coast, I think Vermont at the moment. So yeah, pretty global reach with all these guys. And thinking about Lee funnily enough, I remember [00:10:00] the I ident we created for him and you found a guy on one of those services that would create. Jingles and intros and all that kind of stuff to introduce.

Yeah. Today I would just use Suno. Yeah, the one he one, the one this for Lee, that was well done by the guy who recorded it was, put another shrimp on the Barbie. It was so characteristically stereotypically Australian was the point we were trying to get across. And Lee was a really good sport.

He really played to that well. So that was a, that was an interesting branding perspective. It was fun while it lasted. Yep. We’re gonna talk about some of the milestones that we recall from over the years. And Neville, you’re gonna take the lead on that. There are just two I wanted to mention before you do.

One is our interview with Richard Edelman. He agreed to, to speak with us. I believe he was at the gym. And, my, my guess is he was using a payphone at that point and dialing in somewhere. But it was a great interview. It was almost an hour. We covered a lot of ground. And then when was that?

Do you have the [00:11:00] end, the date? I don’t, I can find that out. I’ll put a link to it in the show notes, but it was in, and I don’t have a date on, it was in the, it was in the early days. So roughly would’ve been around what, 2006, 2007. That kind of time. Probably, maybe a little later. Okay. I’ll look it up while you’re covering some of the highlights and see if I can put a date on that.

Okay. As well as the other one. And this is one that I continue to reference today. In conversations with people, various contexts, and this was an interview we did with two gentlemen. One of them, I can’t recall his name but he had been an attorney in the trucking industry in the US and now was.

Crossing the United States meeting with hospitals to try to teach them that. Listening to your lawyers and sending doctors who have made a mistake during surgery into their rooms to hide and call their lawyers led to less favorable outcomes [00:12:00] than simply admitting to the family or the patient what had happened, why and how you’re gonna make it right.

The other was Helio Fred Garcia. From the Logos Institute, and I believe he’s at Columbia University. I’ve seen Fred speak oh, four or five times. We’ve had several conversations. I’ve read a couple of his books and that was a, just a spectacular conversation, just a real revelation in terms of the insights that are provided.

Into crisis communication despite everything we, we read and see and study and all the sessions we go to at conferences. You think you’ve heard it all, but this was just loaded with Revelations. It was a great interview. There’s a lot we could have picked to include in this episode to talk about milestones.

But if we’d done ’em all, we’ve been here to rival the two and a half hours episode that we did in 2020. So we haven’t done that. Good ones to mention. It was not easy. But there are quite a few that struck me [00:13:00] as memorable. Back in those very early days. In particular one that come, came to mind was the interview we did with Michael Wiley, who was the, his title at the time, director of New Media at general Motors, GM Communications.

And that was a milestone because General Motors was very active with a blog. Where the chief Blogger was a man called Bob Lutz, who’s big. Figure in the US auto industry. He was blogging about small block engines, the cars, the works, and the bog was called the GM Fast Lane Blog. And they were also experimenting with podcasting.

And so they were very early business adopters of. Blogs and podcasts long time long before we called it social media and indeed Michael’s, Michael Bo title directed New Media. That was a phrase that was in common use at the time. So we had a only a 20 minute conversation with Michael, but it was a kind of a scoop for us to get the huge interest at that [00:14:00] time in what a big corporation like General Motors is doing with new media.

So we had a conversation with Michael. That was a great chat and he told us what the primary goal’s worth for the Fast Lane blog, and that was a kind of a scoop to be able to share that fact publicly. Now, of course, looking back 20 years it was it doesn’t seem such a bigger deal. And indeed, I would say most people have gone through all that since then in, in what they’re trying to do from business point of view.

But he said, just to quote him. To get beyond our old ways of communication with a new direct line of communication to all stakeholders. That’s the primary objective. So unfiltered communication, that was a phrase Bob Lutz used quite a bit direct to the audience, bypassing the middleman, which is the PR firms, the ad agencies, the mainstream media, all that revolutionary notions at the time, not.

Unpopular, but contentious to many typical communications issuing press releases. Said [00:15:00] Michael, talking to the media who repurposed your messages for you, and there’s no way for customers to get their thoughts back to you. We’ve been wanting to create this direct line of communication so that our various stakeholders aren’t going to message boards to talk about us.

They have an opportunity to come and talk directly to us. We’re big into getting feedback from our customers, employees, and others. Taking their comments to become a better company and develop better products. We’re really getting some excellent feedback just about every discussion we have on the Fast Lean blog.

We’ve had an excellent dialogue. That may not sound a big deal, Dave. That was a huge deal back then. A big company like that. A public listed company talking about direct communication with customers and soliciting direct feedback, bypassing all the usual channels. That was revolutionary. So that was really great getting that opportunity to hear all those things.

And Michael told us at length other things too about how they were looking to expand that with other bloggers. But Bob Lutz was the star blogger without any question. He also told us a little bit [00:16:00] about their plans for podcasting. But it was the blog that was the big deal. And we had other things quite a bit too, actually.

We talked a bit about. How communicate, or rather this followed on a couple days later, actually, other communicators who listened to that interview went away and wrote up their opinions about it on their own blocks. Nowadays it’s just social medias. You gotta social networks and do all that kind of thing.

But they gave top marks to, to Michael and to our conversation. So a couple of quotes here. From people who are still around today. Lela Fever, common crafts, he said, I think it’s safe to say that GM is getting it Cluetrain style. This was great to hear from someone at gm. You should really check out the interview and for those listeners of you in the Gen Z arena, you might not have heard of C Cluetrain.

You should pay attention to what that was at the turn of the century. That was huge. The Clue Train Manifesto. Kevin O’Keefe at Lex Blob, he is definitely still around as Kevin, like large law firms. General Motors is learning from its first [00:17:00] blog. He said legal marketing professionals can learn much from GM and their PR blogging efforts.

Philippe Boreman, our friend Philippe in in Belgium and points further south in Northern Africa. He said GM has started to podcast and suddenly you see the topic being discussed everywhere. And Alan Moore Brett here in the uk. I haven’t seen Alan for quite a long time now, but he was pretty prominently active in those days.

He said Gmma being far more expansive in utilizing digital channels to build far more effective communications. With its stakeholders than just a blogging vice chairman. So you’ve got the sign of what others saw and how they felt. This was so important at the time, and I agree. It was pretty important.

So there was that one other one that I wanted to mention, even though it’s in passing, I think because we might have some updates on this, is we were really fortunate to secure, and this was quite a scoop, an interview with Steve Ruble when he was working at. Cooper Katz, a PR firm in New [00:18:00] York.

The prior, before his accelerated rise at Edelman, before he went there and he had a great blog, it was very influential called Microper Persuasion. And longtime listeners will remember that I’m sure I said in the blog posts at the time. These arguably Steve is arguably the most.

Prominent and influential blogger in the PR profession, either side of the Atlantic, and I think he really was Shell, so we had a great chat with him. You asked him and. No, that followed later. This was in March, 2005. The business week article was later than that. You asked him a question about how things are going with the blog and what developments are gonna be with that.

And he said, I’m gonna keep doing what I’m doing blogging like a madman. And what I’m trying to do is really, I wanna shake the tree. I think that PR professionals need to really, get what’s going on here and jump on board. And I think that the three of us and the other 97 of us who currently blog in the PR industry, we need to do a better job of talking to the everyday PR man or [00:19:00] woman and what it means to them.

I. ’cause I think a little bit of what we’re doing now is talking amongst ourselves and talking amongst the people who do get it in social media land, actually in mainstream media land as well as, with the different opportunities we get to talk the press. But I think we need to get everyone on board.

I think we’re still having that conversation, Cheryl, don’t you? Although it’s probably 9,700 PR bloggers now. A thousand even. Yeah, exactly. And there’s a lot more ways in which you can communicate. Now I noticed, by the way, just reminding myself he called it, he mentioned social media in that interview.

That was the first reference I remember hearing about what we now commonly call social media. It’s also worth remembering that Steve Ruble and Joe Jaffe started their podcast was it across the pond? Was that what it was called? Across the Sound? Across the sound shortly after we started ours.

And so did oh, it was Terry F and David Jones started inside PR after listening to FIR. Yep, it’s true. [00:20:00] And another milestone episode I felt was episode 100, a hundredth episode that suggested that we might have longevity with this thing that we started in 2005. The hundredth episode was actually on January the fifth, 2006.

So one year on from our first episode, we published a 100th episode. That’s an average. That works out about just under two a week. That’s about right, isn’t it? Yeah. ’cause we started, it wasn’t long before we went biweekly. You are right. And we, in that episode, we talked about a range of topics.

You using a CV as an RSS fees and a podcast. The World Economic Forum was podcasting and blogging, or had planned to at their upcoming event. What are the CEO’s biggest fears about these new media? Dan York’s report was in there and we had listeners, comments, discussion, upcoming interview with the music and all that.

But the comments. Lots of them. I think we’re gonna talk a bit more about comments in a while, aren’t we? That was the 100th episode. So we, we were quite well established then. We looking at the the show notes we [00:21:00] had a section we called from our US northeast correspondent.

That would be Dan, I would say. We had news briefs as we called them at the time, the snippets of information listener comments, discussion where people sent in audio or wrote text comments in the blog, and we discuss those comments and have a conversation about those comments that took up a big chunk of each episode in the show.

We don’t do that anymore. Things have evolved. Commenting is not a big thing, but we’ll talk about comments later on, I think. So that was the 100th episodes. A huge milestone for us in 2007 was the publication of the podcasting book that we collaborated on. And that was something that emerged from a conversation I had back in 2005.

So two years prior with Yvonne Devita, who was how would you describe Yvonne? A book agent doesn’t quite do it. She was more like an editorial publishing guide, had all the contacts in the publishing industry. [00:22:00] Yeah. She worked with people who were self-publishing and helped them get their book into shape.

We put together we planned this book. You and I had a conversation about it. You, at that time were already a well published author. I think you’d done four books at that time, and this is something you were quite well accustomed to. I wasn’t. I had the junior role in here as the, as.

It wasn’t a 50 50 venture. You did most of the writing, but the book was out. It was the second book. Of worth that focused on podcasting from a business perspective. The first was Todd Cochran’s book that he published in late 2005. I think I’m right. I bought it. I remember when it came out. But our book was modestly called How to Do Everything with Podcasting.

The bus, the focus was very much on business and it came out in June, 2007. That was when it was available in the us from Amazon and other online sellers, as well as normal books sellers, and it was made available on Amazon in the UK and July the first of that year. We had great reaction to it.

Shell, didn’t [00:23:00] we had warm reviews everywhere you looked. It was really heartening to see all of that. At least my point of view as the kind of junior author, if you will. Yeah, we got some good feedback on it. Not everybody agreed with everything that was in it. If you read the reviews on Amazon, there’s one person who thought it should have been better Fax checked.

But I couldn’t find any specifics that he was arguing about. No, I would urge you not to read it now. It is woefully out of date, especially in terms of most of the technology. I think the things that are still accurate have to do with types of microphones and the like, everything else. Yeah. Has changed.

Yeah. I think, I guess only thing I would add is about how to do a business podcast is still valid though. Yeah. A bit like Todd’s book, it’s outta date when you talk about the equipment. Yeah. And even the reasons why you’d want to podcast. And the tools available to you. The services are available to you and how you go about it.

Totally changed. I agree. So that is worth bearing in mind. I would say to anyone, yes, go and read it. If you wanna look back at what things were like back in [00:24:00] those days. I would argue though that nevertheless, in the business sector, there are still some valid insights. That still apply today?

Trouble is how do you separate it out from the stuff that doesn’t apply today? That’s the trick. Don’t rely on this, but it was a milestone for us in 2007, two years later, after that first conversation, we published a book. I think we got some more things to talk about that are a little bit later.

But let’s stay with with that period from 2007 up to about 2015. So seven, seven years or so. And some of the things that we were doing during that time, for instance we used to not. I wouldn’t say regularly, as in every year, two or three times. We did quite comprehensive listener surveys.

And remember at that time we had sponsors Reagan report Reagan Communications with the Prime sponsor. You’ll probably remember the others. Chip Griffin, I think, was was the one who started sponsor. Custom scoop chip, and they would do the media monitoring minute, which I think Jen zing pre what a lot of other podcasts ended up doing, which was having [00:25:00] substantive content from their sponsors rather than a pitch.

And Jen Zing enzyme ended up coming in and doing some of those too. She at the time was, she was great of chips. Yeah. We also had Igloo software and there were some others in there that I. I can’t remember that we had as sponsors, right? So that was the kind of the golden age of sponsors paying money to be associated with our podcast.

Not enough to retire on or even take that cruise we talked about back in those days. Shell, but it was nice and it signified. People had a belief that. This was worth supporting and they’re willing to put some money into it. Oh. Yeah. So of course that was another one. It’s worth before. It’s worth mentioning, again, a thanks to all the sponsors at that time because that was the pinnacle from that point of view.

It was good. And we were able to do some of the things that we were, we planned to do with knowing that we had people like Reagan and others who were supporting us in that regard. It’s probably worth now talking about the [00:26:00] technical challenges you mentioned at the beginning of this episode.

How and how we started and I’ll mention just briefly ’cause I know this is gonna come into Mix Miners, but that was a bit later on. But Skype was instrumental. It wasn’t a challenge. Skype was an enabler for us, wasn’t it? Skype was an enabler and a challenge. We would not have been able to do this if Skype had not been around in the early days.

No, because the cost of an international call and the technical requirements for recording to record and international call at the quality levels that were required even in the earliest days for podcasting. Even on the Daily Source code the first podcast, Adam Curry. That Adam Curry, yeah.

Started as he was developing the podcast catcher, which is more that we’ll talk about in terms of the technology was saying that if it’s not listenable, it doesn’t matter how good your content is, people won’t listen. So we knew that the audio quality had to be, it couldn’t be a phone call and Skype, no was the answer.

The problem was that [00:27:00] you couldn’t record both ends of a Skype call and the idea of a double. Which is where we each record locally. I don’t know why it hadn’t occurred to us, but it hadn’t. But so we came up with this thing involving virtual cables, which was a piece of software that you would install that would allow you to run two instances of Skype simultaneously.

So I would have one running and have that output going to one recording device and the other one running and going to another. Recording device. Initially we were recording on the computer, but that was unreliable at the time. Keep in mind, there was no cloud yet at this point. So we did that for a while and then I would mix them together in, audacity, which was the free audio editing tool that most podcasters were using at the time because nobody wanted to invest in the professional editing software. Podcasting [00:28:00] hadn’t gotten beyond the hobby level at that point. The research I did led me to the mix minus, which allowed me to do this through a single soundboard out to separate recording devices, which worked really well because that way I could use the same audio settings on everything and create a more consistent sounding show.

And now of course, we’re recording on Riverside. There were also times that we were using some other tools that were available out there for some of the stuff that we were doing FIR Live. And I promised I would let you know when the Edelman interview and. The Fred Garcia interview happened, and they both happened on FIR live, not FIR interviews FIR live number 11 15 years ago, 2009 was the one with Richard Edelman.

And the, the one with Helio, Fred Garcia and Jim Golden was the name of that [00:29:00] attorney was number 14 of FIR live on May 26th. And we used a tool for those that was called Blog Talk Radio. And what blog Talk Radio let you do was dial everybody dialed in and had a conversation, like it was a talk radio show.

And that, so they dialed in on, not via Skype or anything, but it was an interface on the web, could use their phone. There was a, an 800 number phone you could give them. I couldn’t remember. That’s cool. And it would show them as waiting and it gave you all the controls that you would have if you were a radio show host.

It was really revolutionary at the time. It’s interesting hearing that, it’s like the hybrid stage from the transition from the analog days of radio. To being digital and indeed now, of course is nothing, is way more advanced now than it ever was back then.

That was that bridge period Skype, as you mentioned. Absolutely. Was. A hu huge disruptor of telecommunications industry globally. I remember when Skype first came out of [00:30:00] 2003, I signed up for it straight away and was using the Skype out feature, which you paid for. It was about the 10th of the cost of doing normal phone calls, so the audio quality wasn’t.

Too bad, but for our point of view, it wasn’t brilliant, but it was better than the phone lines and it was easy. So that was another signal of of where, change was coming from a technological point of view. The challenges that it brought, and I wanna just mention briefly in this. At around that early period was something else that happened that was truly revolutionary, which was apple supporting podcasts in iTunes when they released iTunes 4.9 in June, 2005.

Not long after we started that drove. Immediate interest and awareness in podcasting. And I’m pretty sure we had a ben benefit from that in a very small way because that was aimed mainly at lit by differentiator, let’s call ’em consumer type podcasts that Dawn and Drew show you mentioned. And by the way, I always found them rude.

Not [00:31:00] funny, but that’s ’cause I’m a Brit, not American, I suspect. But I think the the the gates were opened with that, even though now. No, now it’s 15 years on, 20 years on, and it’s 20 years on. It’s taken the market in whole new areas where we hear stories about, the hundreds of thousands of podcast episodes created every week and the millions of podcasts that are out there.

The mind boggles with the numbers. The quality’s improved though, but getting back now to that it’s hard to imagine then what we’re able to do now. The cloud solved a lot of problems. We used Zencaster for a while, although I could never resolve the issue of drift. So our, yeah, two feeds didn’t align and I was having to do a lot of slicing and dicing of Yeah.

A nightmare audio feeds to make them align. And we. Then went to a double lender where we would record locally and you would use a service to send me your file. And that was pretty easy to sync up. I’ve been using Adobe audition for a long time now as opposed to the free audacity. And now we’re on [00:32:00] Riverside fm.

The number of podcast tools that have become available as the size of the podcasting space has grown is. Really impressive. This is everything from hardware, all in one podcasting, hardware tools to software like Riverside. It’s not the only option out there. There are several out there that are available that allow you to do this and factory in the video component.

Since we know that a lot of people listen to their podcast now on YouTube, it’s important to have that video component and we’re able to add that. Now, if you go to the FIR. Channel on YouTube you can watch. Not that there’s anything to see, it’s just two talking heads. But I suspect that most people who find it and listen on YouTube aren’t really watching.

It’s just in the background. Yeah. While they’re doing something else. But yeah, it is important to be there and Riverside is one of the tools that makes that possible. Yeah. Yeah. It is it’s taken the technological development in audio recording in the way we are doing [00:33:00] it right up into the realm of professional radio studios and so forth that do have done this kind of thing for a long time.

It, it had a big impact, I think, on people’s. Willingness to listen to podcasts, where now the expectation is they want the same listening experiences they get when they tune into to DAB radio, for instance, a pristine quality audio. It’s.

They’re accustomed to more and more professional podcasts. Precisely. You look at things like precisely serial, and that’s what they hear. So when they hear something like ours, if it doesn’t measure up in terms of the quality of the audio, yeah, but I’m talking mostly from the listen experience point of view more than anything where back then I.

It was outside the realm, even with kind of, okay, we’ve got tons of money, we could do this, which was never the case. It’s outside the realm of that. Back then, professional quality microphones, the kind of stuff in radio studios. They cost a lot of money. Now I. That cost barrier is gone and both you and I have got equipment and we have purchased equipment over that of recent [00:34:00] years in particular that we couldn’t have probably dreamed of doing back in 2005 or so.

So we’ve got the ability, so I’m in my new garden studio in Somerset, in England. That’s where we moved to in October and built this place. It’s soundproofed. I’ve noticed in recordings I’ve done recently, the quality is. Completely, a hundred percent better than it ever was before with the soundproofing panels.

So decent microphone. The pop filter you can probably see on the video. And other things, the software, Adobe addition that I use as you do. There’s a few other tools I use occasionally, but I always come back to Adobe because it’s so good. And we’re doing this on Riverside, as you say, and that uses a mix of.

Storing the recordings on your hard drive and uploading it in packets as we are going along. So it’s good to have a good internet connection. Most of the times people do have great internet connection, gigabit internet. I had that before we moved. That’s a work in progress still to get it like that in the new place.

It will maybe a [00:35:00] month or so away yet. All those things combine to to provide. A means by which we could pro produce and share content where the quality of the listing experience was really good. And if the content is good, then we’re onto a winner. Now, we don’t hear much from people these days on this.

Maybe we need to ask people directly, so perhaps the time comes into the survey to do. But I think. We are at a point where two decades in, we’ve done we’ve our own experience has been great. The journey’s been fantastic. The challenges and hurdles are all part of the excitements and experience of doing this.

It’s challenging, getting dates in and all that stuff. Sometimes given our time zone difference, which has always been the case. You are in California, I’m in the uk, which is eight hours ahead of you. It was worse when exam.

Yeah twice a year. We’re an hour closer. But but we’ve managed it and it’s, it works out. Okay. I’m just thinking back just a few years. In fact it’s to 20 I. 20. [00:36:00] So the, actually the beginning of 2020 in January, that was the formal start of the COVID-19 pandemic where we did an episode that you put this together.

She and we called it, or I did in my post describing it, maybe the longest single episode of a podcast ever. Two and a half hours this episode. To now that’s a typical episode of. Of this week in Google. And I did just listen to a five and a half hour episode of a podcast. No, that’s, that, that’s a whole different ballgame.

But this week in tech with God, what’s his name? The the John Devore, right? Neil Port. Leo LaPorte, right? This we Tech, yeah. Leo Laport. That’s right. The network. That was the benchmark for long form content. But this one you gathered 17, as we described it, the smartest communicational professionals in the business.

I. For their take on FIR effectively. And let me run off the names here. Christopher Barger contributed. Jeannie Dietrich, chip Griffin, Lee Hopkins. Marshall Kirkpatrick. Sharon McIntosh. Rachel [00:37:00] Miller. Scott Monty Christopher s Penn, Jen Phillips, Eric Schwartzman. Bill Spaniel, David Spark, mark Story, Andrea VAs, Brad Whitworth, and Dan York.

They were all in there. We had Donna Papa Costa, who was a podcaster back in those early days, created our identity, our voice identity, the podcast for communicators in her unique voice, and that was a terrific labeling for us. This is episode under the new naming episode one 1 91 that was published on the 21st of January.

It’s worth a listen to what all these guys have to say. That’s only I. Not long ago, five years ago. And it’s only got better since then, shall I would argue. ’cause we then talked about the we had another kind of note of where we were at back in January of this year. We talked about, two decades of podcasting that was a bit premature. It was in 19 years, but we had something similar. And so we’ve gone that route. That’s [00:38:00] why, one reason why we don’t have any of those testimonials in this episode. ’cause what more is there to say that these guys haven’t that episode though?

January, 2020 is really worth a listen. There’s some very smart comments from all those folks I’ve mentioned, so that was great. So that takes us to today. There’s other things we could talk about too, but there’s so much there. I think, one other thing to mention is we have done, when we have been able to is live recordings together.

When we’ve been at events typically, or. I’ve been over in California, or you’ve been over in the uk The last time we did this, actually face to face shell was when you and Michelle came over and stayed with us in 2022. And we did a, we did an episode in my dining room where we had some difficulties with microphones, but we actually managed it in the ed.

And there’s other examples. There’s a, an infamous one actually of a, when we were at a conference, I think it was in 2006. In in California and there’s some great photos, you and I sitting at a [00:39:00] table and people talking to us in the venue. And it was, we were with headphones on laptops, mixers as well.

The works was there too. You’ve done a couple at conferences and we’ve managed that. We’ve we’ve always been on the leading edge of doing this stuff, haven’t we? We did one where I was speaking, I can’t remember where it was or to whom, but I think it was in or near Boston. And I got everything set up at the conference and brought you in.

And we did an episode in front of everybody. Yeah. And one of the segments was them asking questions and being able to hear you in addition to me. And then that was published as an episode. I’d have to do a little digging to find. That particular episode, but that was that was a technical challenge in those days.

Yeah. And a lot of fun. We’ve also, over the years, had themes that have seeped into many episodes during a. 10, 12 month period. Second, [00:40:00] life was a big one of those. Certainly AI finds its way into every episode now. And by the way, speaking of the technology it should be no surprise to anybody that Riverside fm, that tool that we use for recording has added.

Many AI features that we take advantage of in editing. One of those that I just love is its ability to remove filler words, which is also, by the way, a feature of d script tool that I also use in producing this show. It can also fix the sound. It wasn’t that long ago. I. Neglected to confirm that my good microphone was the one being used to record.

It ended up being the webcam microphone and I, it sounded like I was in a tin can or on a. Landline telephone. And I ran it through magic Sound on Riverside fm and it sounded like I was in a studio talking into an expensive microphone. These technologies are remarkable. Yeah. And they are.

We’ll continue talking about ’em well into the future, I’m [00:41:00] sure. Yeah I agree. I’m sure. It’s funny you mentioned Second Life. That’s a, I’m glad you mentioned that because that was an experiment we did. That was a milestone where we established a presence in Second Life, and we experimented with things that were new at that time, such as being able to.

Pass audio to and fro second life, to outside the virtual world, into the real world. We did a number of episodes in Second Life. We even had a storefront in Second Life, like a place where you could hang out with your virtual avatar and build a community in Second Life. We tried that a bit.

That was a great experiment that we did. I think on that point about. Riverside fm. Yeah, you’re right. These tools are fantastic, what you can now do, and it is something that we’re gonna see a lot more of. So I’m thinking maybe I. Think of the time we’ve got left for this episode. It’s a quick tour over 20 years, and we are linking out to other stuff you might wanna listen to, like that episode with 17 smart professionals in there talking.

Might be worth saying. What’s [00:42:00] next? What’s coming up? Not so much for us, although we might touch on that, is in the industry as a whole everyone’s doing analytics. We’re seeing lots of very interesting. Data being produced and the interpretation of that data to suggest that podcasting, and I’ve been hearing this for years, shell, we have been hearing this for years, that it’s poised to take off.

It’s poised to break into the mainstream in the workplace. I arguably, it’s there, but it’s not mass, but that. That’s okay, because this is not about just getting big numbers. We hear enough about big numbers. We hear there are hundreds of thousands of podcast episodes produced every week. There are millions of podcasts.

Arguably the these are selective choices by people who with content that appeals to niche audiences. That’s one of the beauties. Nevertheless, you also then hear about. Some podcasts that are literally in the realm of broadcast radio in terms of audience reach, the likes of Joe Rogan in America, who’s in the Millions.

There are people making serious money outta [00:43:00] this. Spotify, notably, we’re a niche podcast. We set out the outset to reach professionals in organizational communication around the world with insights on tech developments in communication particularly, and that’s how we’ve continued doing this. Now we do this.

It’s for love, not for money. We don’t have sponsors right now, and we haven’t sought any really. EE even when we did have sponsors we weren’t getting rich. It was covering our costs. Oh, no absolutely. That, that, that was why we weren’t doing it for the kind of enrichment point of view.

It was the joy of doing it and being able to articulate things and engage with like-minded others, but in terms of what’s coming. But our sponsors all came to us too. We never, they did, went out and said, would you like to sponsor our show? You’re absolutely right. They, we’ll have links in the show notes of some of the reports about what’s next for podcasting.

And you can read yourself, there’s a lot of of opinion out there. Some of it is very informed and highly credible. One of my, [00:44:00] what I think is one of the best looks at the future of podcasting is from Riverside itself, Riverside fm, where they talk about nine trends. Coming up in in during this year and well into next year they talk about podcast growth and they segregate or they segment their research into what’s the future look like for individual creators?

What’s it look like for businesses and companies FAQs on the future of podcasting? And I think it is something that our constants I would argue that people talk about. On what is coming next the change that’s coming, they talk about, you mentioned that AI is gonna have a big role. There’s a lot of it already in place and in our experience on Riverside, for instance making podcasts as lives easier, I.

By taking a lot of the heavy lifting out of the of the audio manipulation process. I don’t mean the editing so much, although you could do it for that too. But like you said, taking out the ums and the ahs, for instance optimizing the audio quality, things like that they could speed up [00:45:00] podcasting workflows and applies to.

Every industry. So things like that’s more accessible. Upping expectations through the quality that is good. We use a tool, I discovered this about a year ago, called Crumple Pop. It’s a lovely name, isn’t it? Based in Florida. They produce a suite of tools that do magical things to audio. For instance, you are talking in a room that’s got a lot of echo ’cause there’s no soundproofing or anything.

This tool will eliminate that. No one would. Ever know that you had done this in anything other than the studio. If you are out in the street and there’s a heavy wind blowing and you don’t have a pop filter, or even if you do a wind filter it’ll eliminate all of that and general other things that it could do, some of which are quite technical.

Adobe Audition has tools now in the latest versions that are AI driven. That do things like normalize different audio tracks with literally a couple of clicks before you had to drag little things on the audio waveform and do all that kind of stuff. It’s a lot easier now. And as I said, you are finding that AI is behind much of this.[00:46:00]

Other things that in in Riverside’s predictions they’re talking about content repurposing where AI takes audio and converts it into other formats, such as short form video. And that’s something that we are seeing more and more podcasters doing. We’ve, we are doing it, as you mentioned earlier, she two talking heads and audio as a pod, as a MP four file on YouTube.

Some people like the format. That way it’s not a too heavy lift to do that, to meet that desire. It does mean though that there is further change coming from a technical point of view. We’ve gotta keep on top of that, which we do video. So video’s a big deal for podcasting. I still. Talk about podcasting, meaning audio, although I don’t say audio, podcast.

I say podcasting. And then there’s video podcasting, but that’s just me. They’ll always just podcasting at some point. Voice search optimization is where voice controlled AI assistance, like I. Google, Alexa and Siri that we traditionally used [00:47:00] to will help put your podcast rank highly when a listener searches for yours via their AI assistant.

And we’re already seeing some of the signs of that. And of course the big disruptor in that area is tools like Perplexity, AI and chat, GPT and others who are also jockeying for position to be the preferred search tool. So there’s stuff like this there’s a lot more, and we’ll share the link to their predictions so you can read it.

Private podcasting meaning it’s offering loyal community paying subscribers. We don’t do paying, but I can see that being a big deal. For many short form content. We do some of that. We always struggle on keeping the episodes short and people still talk about, Hey, can’t you cut your 90 minutes down is too long, and you get a bit tired of saying, hit the pause button and listen to the other bit tomorrow, you.

Some people like the long form. I certainly do. So it’s great. So there’s lots of interesting things tips to stay ahead. They point these out, stay on top of the latest, pay [00:48:00] attention to what’s going on record high quality content. We aim to do that, and I think we deliver on that because our quality is quite good.

There’s a lot more to look at and I wonder. Here we are in the beginning of 20, 25, 20 years since our first episode, what the next five years will look like. And I’m not looking 10 years because I think it’s gonna be entirely different. Two indicators of where we’re headed with this, I think first of all, is that you’re now seeing news reports that quote people who said something in a podcast.

Yeah. This could be anything from a report in People magazine about a celebrity trashing a colleague to a. Politician making some revelation that gets reported because they were talking no names mentioned, right in the friendly confines of a podcast that was hosted by somebody who was on the same side of the political fence as them.

So podcasting is now where news is broken. Used to be Twitter now it seems to be podcasts. The other thing. [00:49:00] That I think it’s important to recognize, and I referenced it earlier, is that while in the 2024 presidential campaign here in the us Kamala Harris’ campaign spent over a billion dollars on traditional media.

They spent far less in the Trump campaign, but he appeared on podcasts that appealed to the bro community, Uhhuh, and they turned out. For him. So I think in the post-election analysis, a lot of people had said podcasting is one of those places where politicians are going to have to. Invest time and perhaps even some money down the road because that’s where influence is wielded.

So it’s taken a long time for podcasting to get there. It was a lot of years that people said this is always going to be a hobbyist thing. It’s never gonna go mainstream. And that’s gone mainstream. And partly that’s because of the shift. Technologically from needing pod catching software which Adam Curry developed.

And he had to be fairly [00:50:00] technical savvy to use these things to now just using an app on your phone to get the podcast you want, and listening in your car when it’s. Connected to your car’s entertainment system. Discoverability has changed. It used to be a nightmare. Apple changed some of that.

And now the podcast apps have discoverability features and even algorithms that recommend podcasts to you based on your current listening habits. I think this is all going to continue to accelerate. The momentum continues to build and I think the influence available in podcasting is going to continue to increase.

I also think it’s going to be a space that makes room for everybody. You could be the Joe Rogan with. 40 million listeners, you could be us with, a thousand or so reaching out to the PR community that’s actually interested in staying up on the intersection of communication and technology.

But I don’t [00:51:00] see an end in sight for podcasting. I just see more growth and expansion. Yeah. And influence. I’m with you on that. Indeed. I’m with you on that. Indeed, much of what I’m seeing, people reporting on what they think is coming next is aligned with that sentiment. So exciting times ahead if you’re a podcaster.

If you are not yet a podcaster, think about it. Exciting times ahead await you if you decide to go this route, but like you said, she. We started in the days where you needed a computer and that’s really the only way you could do this. If you are in a generation, a lot younger than we are, you are accustomed li most likely to a mobile device.

Talk, tap, publish. That’s it. No fancy time spent on, on editing and audio and all that kind of business. It’s all, instant. That said I see I listen to a number of podcasts on in the car that are produced that way, that are long form content, 45 minutes plus. And I listen with one ear on what am I hearing quality wise.

I’m wondering how they produce this. [00:52:00] It’s all really remarkable where things have come since those early days. For us, though, we’re available on any device no matter what. And hopefully your listening experience will be great. However you get your f. It has been a lot of fun looking back over the last 20 years.

The next episode will launch our next 20 years. No idea what we’ll be talking about, but it will undoubtedly be next week, and that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release. Happy anniversary, Neville. Thank you. She likewise.

 

The post FIR #443: From RSS to ChatGPT — FIR’s 20-Year Tech Communications Chronicle appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

Astroturfing, smear campaigns, social media manipulation, unauthorized release of private information, defamation, character assassination, whisper campaigns, media planting, and gaslighting.

These activities are undertaken by the seamiest, most ethically challenged public relations practitioners. While there are far more PR professionals who abide by ethical codes, the bad actors get all the attention, leading to a sordid reputation for the industry that some believe we will never be able to overcome.

The latest example comes from the agency representing actor/producer/director Justin Baldoni, who responded to accusations of inappropriate behavior by engaging an agency that employed all of the tactics listed above. Initially, the campaign had the desired effect but ultimately backfired as the campaign itself drew more attention than the original allegations.

In this short midweek episode, Neville and Shel examine the controversy and address the idea of requiring licensing or certification of all PR practitioners and whether it would weed out those who find codes of ethics to be mere inconveniences to be ignored.

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, January 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Links from this episode:

• Blake Lively’s claims against Justin Baldoni put spotlight on ‘hostile’ Hollywood tactics
• New York Times’s TikTok report
• Robert Pickard on LinkedIn: ‘We Can Bury Anyone’: Inside a Hollywood Smear Machine
• Blake Lively Accuses Justin Baldoni of Sexual Harassment
• Why Justin Baldoni’s War Against Blake Lively Worked So Well
• Justin Baldoni’s Crisis PR Has Links To Other Controversial Celebrities
• I’ve Seen Celebrity P.R. Tactics at Work. Blake Lively Is Not Alone. (New York Times)
• What Is Astroturfing? Experts Break Down the PR Tactic Used in Alleged Smear Campaign Against Blake Lively

Raw Transcript:

Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 442 of four immediate release. I’m Shel Holtz. And I’m Neville Hobson. And we are recording this the day after Christmas Day. And this topic is very timely news wise. It’s in the news, but it has depth of distinct interest to communicators. And this is the huge kerfuffle surrounding the actors, Blake Lively and Justin Bald, and the aftermath of the work they did on the film.

It ends with us. It’s become a flashpoint for ethical discussion in the PR and entertainment industries. The incident as covered by many, the B-B-C-C-E-O today, New York Times that I’ve seen today, in fact and many others, showcases a disturbing confluence of workplace misconduct allegations and aggressive reputation management strategies.

With continuing allegations over egregious behaviors by PR pros and agencies, what are the [00:01:00] impacts for practitioners and the profession? We’ll address this question right after this.

The conflict began during the production of It Ends with us where Blake Lively accused Baldon and producer Jamie Heath of boundary violations and inappropriate behavior, prompting the studio Wayfarer to implement safeguards such as hiring an intimacy coordinator. Despite these measures, tensions persisted particularly over creative control.

Lively ultimately won significant input into the film’s final cut and received a producer credit as the film approached its release. Private messages revealed a coordinated effort by Baldon and his crisis PR team, led by Melissa Nathan to damage Lively’s reputation. I. The campaign allegedly involved amplifying negative narratives about Lively online while suppressing stories of b’s.

Alleged misconduct techniques included fostering untraceable social media narratives, leveraging media connections to plant damaging stories, and utilizing [00:02:00] tactics reminiscent of campaigns seen in other high profile cases like that of Johnny Depp and Amber Hurt. Documents disclose that Baldon and his team sought to portray lively as difficult to work with and opportunistic, aiming to shift public focus from his actions to her perceived shortcomings.

This strategy significantly impacted Lively’s career and personal brand resulting in a decline in her haircare product, sales and public backlash against her. The PR tactics used in this case highlight the ethical quandaries surrounding the industry’s role in reputation management. The notion that PR professionals could systematically attempt to bury an individual raises questions about the need for stricter professional standards such as licensing or accreditation for PR practitioners.

Something Shel and I have discussed many times in this podcast. B’S public image has remained relatively intact despite the revelations. While Lively has suffered reputational damage. Critics argue this outcome [00:03:00] underscores the pervasive double standards in how society evaluates men and women in public controversies.

Allegations of harassment and subsequent retaliation illustrate persistent issues within Hollywood’s power dynamics. The case exemplifies how crisis management can ve into ethically dubious territory. Real world consequences for individuals and public discourse. It also strengthens the argument for introducing licensing requirements for PR practitioners to enforce ethical standards and accountability.

A number of PR practitioners have weighed in on this, especially on LinkedIn. Many are highly critical of the alleged egregious behavior and actions of some PR practitioners. But before we look at what others have to say, she, what’s your take on the PR issues arising from all of this? It leads me to re reiterate my belief that we do need licensing or a requirement for certification for people to work in this industry because there are no repercussions to the agency that [00:04:00] engaged in this behavior and this behavior is beyond the pale.

I mean if you look at the codes of ethics of any. Association out there that represents people in the communications industry. P-R-S-A-I-A-B-C-C-P-R-S-C-I-P-R, they have violated several of these truth and accuracy. Uh, is one. They engaged in defamation and they spread falsehoods.

The core of her lawsuit is the accusation. That his team spread these false and damaging stories about her, and that violates code of ethics, which does emphasize. Honesty and accuracy in communications. They misused influence his position. And I think this has come out more strongly since this story has gained the legs that it has.

He has been a prominent advocate for women’s rights. They he’s misusing his influence there to a attack. A woman potentially harm a colleague [00:05:00] is a. Breach of trust. There’s a lack of transparency involved here, which is another PR principle of, fostering open and honest communication.

The smear campaign was conducted covertly. She didn’t know about it. She didn’t have the opportunity to respond to any of these accusations. The harassment and the smear campaign. This is potential abuse of power dynamics in the entertainment industry where I’m really glad that I don’t work.

Uhhuh I should note that my father was in the entertainment industry and I I was exposed to it a lot growing up and determined early on that I really didn’t want anything to do with it. But PR professionals do have a responsibility to ensure that their actions don’t. Enable this kind of abuse.

And I think the thing that disturbs me the most is that there are ways that a PR agency could have taken on this account and handled it well. By prioritizing truth and accuracy, I. I [00:06:00] absolutely advise against defaming the person that is on the other side of this argument facilitating open communication, upholding professional standards, all could have been brought to bear in a strategy.

I. That would have worked. Th this is the easy way out for Balone. And, frankly I think that the people who did this should be ashamed of themselves. I’m sure they’re not, I’m sure they’re very proud of the results of this. Although, to be honest, the more this story grows, the worse it is for bald his reputation.

It was looking pretty good for a while, but the more discussion there is around this, the more it’s backfiring against him because he’s being seen as a guy who hired an agency that did these things. You also, because this has gotten so public, have a lot of people coming to Blake Lively’s defense, including Colleen Hoover.

Who wrote the book that the movie was based on, I don’t know if she wrote the screenplay or was heavily involved in the film, but when you have all of these [00:07:00] people publicly standing behind Lively it’s not going to stand well for Balone. So ultimately, I don’t think this worked out for ’em, but only because it got the amount of attention it did.

This PR agency takes on work like this all the time. I don’t know. If there have been previous instances where they have taken the same approaches and it just hasn’t, gotten the kind of exposure that this assignment did. But in, in a world in which they had to be certified in order to do this kind of work the certifying agency or the licensing agency would be able to revoke it because of the violation of ethics, and they wouldn’t be able to do this work anymore.

That doesn’t happen, as I’ve said a million times. Anyone can hang out a shingle that says public relations on it, and take on clients and behave any way they want. And that’s what happened here. Yeah, it looks that way, doesn’t it? And what’s, what I, what sort of takes me aback a bit too is the strong way in which the agency [00:08:00] defends what they’re doing is just doing their job.

I saw just before we started recording this, an article in. People magazine that was in my feed that I’m following for this, I thought, oh, someone’s mentioning astroturfing finally has it come back again? I don’t think it ever went away. No. In fact, there’s a, the text in the narrative, which I thought was absolutely to the point.

It says, at the core of live’s allegations is astroturfing a strategy designed to manipulate public opinion by creating the illusion of grassroots support. Or backlash. The complaint claims that Baldoni Crisis PR firm, the agency group, let’s tag. T-A-G-P-R coordinated social media efforts to portray her as controlling and difficult during the film’s production.

And it, it notes a paragraph later emphasizing that they were simply doing their job because everyone does this. I think there’s absolute bollocks to use a technical term we have over here in the uk. I can’t believe that for a second. But there are many who do though. And thing I, I wanna point, I wanna mention, just [00:09:00] share really some of the conversation that’s been going on LinkedIn in particular.

Bob Pickard, who’s the name I think you are familiar with Shel. Oh, sure. He wrote just for Christmas, I felt nauseous reading this article. We can bury anyone inside a Hollywood smear machine in the New York Times and that is a really good article I have to say on this kerfuffle, no proper professional communicator with even a similar crim of ethics could ever debase themselves using such gutter tactics of character assassination.

No genuine crisis, public relations expert, quote unquote, could conceive of writing down such slimy nonsense or so lacking in judgment. As we can bury anyone. All too often celebrity publicity does not equal communications professionalism. And there are quite a number of comments to to that post that he made.

There’s also some, another one I want to reference too, which is in the House of Marketing and PR communications group on Facebook. That was posted again just for Christmas Day by Helen Reynolds. And she has an [00:10:00] interesting take here. She starts by saying popular, unpopular possibly a popular unpopular opinion.

I work in comms, not pr, it’s an old debate, but this story about Melissa, Nathan, that’s the the PR person mentioned earlier, has made me embarrassed. I. The popular idea is and always has been, that smearing people and coverups are the job. I don’t want to be associated with pr. She says, ironically, PR as a profession has the worst reputation.

The term is permanently tainted. She says, and she had responses from a number of people who say hang on a minute. You’re tying the whole profession like this. The whole profession’s not like this. That’s I guess, a point of all of this because it is highlighting what negatives in the profession of which.

That’s what’s getting the attention, not the good the profession does. So this debate, no doubt on this angle in particular the professionalism or lack of certain people who work in the PR industry is highlighting this whole point about, wait a minute if this was some kind of. Like doctors, like lawyers and so [00:11:00] forth, where you are ju you are in a sense, judged by others before you get a license.

You have to apply and be verified and all that kind of stuff. You wouldn’t have this you, I think that’s probably a little naive saying you wouldn’t have this you would still, but you’d be able to do something about it if you do. We’ve talked about this lots of times before. Your view is strong on this.

I know. I don’t disagree with you either. I don’t believe this is gonna happen. I hate to say it like that. No this might get lots of debate going such as what we are having in this podcast. What I’m seeing people writing on social networks like LinkedIn, will anything actually happen. It, as Helen mentions, popular, unpopular, or possibly popular un god, a mouthful to get tongue twist, to get you word.

Popular. Popular, possibly unpopular opinion. Because it’s clearly isn’t something front of mind to many in our, in this profession. I, I don’t see a kind of groundswell of people demanding, something must be done about this. I don’t see any of that. I don’t see the professional bodies commenting on this publicly [00:12:00] at all.

So clearly this is not, embarrassing enough to force action. So what’s to be done, do you think? I don’t know what other PR agencies would do if their billings are fine. And as we reported recently talking about the Edelman layoffs and trauma at other agencies billings aren’t fine right now.

So maybe this is the time for some self-reflection in the industry. But I think. One, one of the challenges that you face with the reputation of PR as an industry is that because you have people like this and agencies like this engaging in behaviors like this and that’s what gets the attention and how much attention does it get in the public media when a PR agency has a successful engagement that.

Was done completely ethically that ticked all of the boxes on codes of ethics it never gets talked about. So what does that lead to? It leads to [00:13:00] portrayals of public relations, people in the movies and TV and novels as being more like this individual than the people that you, and I know Bob Picard for example.

Who, who do. Engage in their practice based on a solid foundation of ethics. I, as you mentioned, the problem is that there are no consequences. There’s nothing that’s gonna happen to her. I. She’s looking at all this bad press right now over this, but how many celebrities are looking at this and say, yeah, she’s the one I want in my corner.

Something bad happens. I imagine she’s gonna do rather well as a result of this, sadly. But, by the way I should note my view that licensing or a mandatory certification should be. A requirement is 180 degrees from where I used to be on this issue. When I heard people talk about it, my argument was no, because if you look at the professions that do require this, the [00:14:00] law, accounting, medicine.

Things like that, there’s one right way to do things and in public relations there’s a tremendous amount of creativity and a tremendous amount of flexibility. There’s dozens of ways, hundreds of ways that you could approach any assignment that, that you get in a PR agency. And how do regulate that?

And I have come around based purely on ethics. We’re not going to say there’s one way to do. Something, but there are clearly ethical and unethical ways of doing it, and that’s what the licensing or certification bodies would be looking at in a world where it was required when a complaint was filed that this violated ethics.

We’ll look at it, we’ll investigate and we will determine what the consequences should be. Should it be reprimand should it be. A revocation of the license or the certification. These bodies would have to come up with the committees or groups that would make these assessments.

But I [00:15:00] don’t see it happening anytime soon because I don’t see the motivation out there to do this. And of course it’s not the PR industry that would do this. It would be the business community. It’s not the lawyers who say you have to have. A-A-A-A-A-A license to practice law.

It’s the state in the United States, it’s California. You have to have pass the California bar. So at some level it would have to be a governmental body some kind of a public institution that would need to make the determination that this has gone far enough and we need to start licensing or certifying these people.

Yeah. It’s a, it is a tricky one. I can see that quite clearly. It’s. It’s sad. I think I was thinking when I was thinking about this today organizations many have codes of ethics that they publish. I’m talking about in the profession, not just general businesses, but although some do but mostly you’ll see this in advertising, in pr of course in marketing, where people publicly state, we follow this code of ethics [00:16:00] practice.

I wonder I’ve not none come to mind that I that they quite outstanding and all encompassing and embrace this kind of topic that this is not how we conduct ourselves here. The easy thing perhaps would be to say if you’re a member of a personal body, they have a code of ethics, it’s new, have a code of knew how to publicly support that and.

Many people do that wouldn’t be, none of that is enough. So you are right. It’s not the professional associations, it’s the clients, let’s say who, who might need. But there’s, there is no motivation. I. Yeah, and I think there’s an opportunity for education that you wanna look for an organization with individuals who have the certification from a credible organization like the Global Communication Certification Council.

But one, one other point just to make you brought it up with that people article talking about astroturfing. Yeah. I don’t know why anybody would think it had ever gone away. Astroturfing originally was really difficult to pull off. What you had to have was a network of people [00:17:00] that you could send.

A letter to, and then they would rewrite that letter and sign it and send it to their local newspaper to appear in the letters to the editor. So essentially, you had the same letter in hundreds of local newspapers showing a groundswell of public grassroots support for whatever the issue was in the digital world.

With influencers and social media, it has gotten a lot easier. So there’s more astroturfing, not less taking place today. We see it, although I don’t see people calling it astroturfing so much, but it is what it is. Yeah. I remember in, in, in the current climate IE digital since the turn of the century, I first came across that term in the, you’ll remember this Shel in the early days of blogging global PR week.

Version 1.0 of course that had a lot of people who we know who are still active discussing this whole thing. And I’ve seen others discussion since then, but nothing really, there’s no needless have been moved other than it gets into public [00:18:00] consciousness. Maybe someone might hear what we are talking about and think, okay, let me.

Amplifi this topic that I think would be a good idea if we said to people, look, if you hear this and you are broad agreement with the topic we’re discussing here, please talk about it. Please amplify it to others. Maybe that way someone’s gonna take notice. So don’t write to your member of Parliament and that kind of stuff.

Just talk about it on your networks and raise it with your communities and see what people have to say and will that make a difference. I put my cynicism aside, but only in the sense that, don’t have your expectations set too high, but if enough people start talking about this, it might get subtraction at some point.

Yeah. My expectations are not set very high and that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release.

The post FIR #442: Justin Baldoni’s Attack on Blake Lively Explains Why PR is a Dirty Word appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the findings from the SAGA quarterly survey of small agency owners. They cover insights on optimism in business outlook despite recent challenges, with a focus on talent-related issues such as compensation, retention, and recruiting.

They delve into some surprising statistics, such as one in five agency owners not paying themselves regularly and over 30% having reduced headcount in the past year.

The conversation highlights the importance of agency owners paying themselves a fair salary, balancing employee compensation, and maintaining efficient business practices without overworking staff.

They also discuss the significance of flexible work arrangements and employee benefits in improving retention. [read the transcript]

The post ALP 255: What the Q4 SAGA Survey tells us about agency talent appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

The world’s biggest PR agency laid off five percent of its global staff. It’s a sign of the headwinds facing the industry, including reduced opportunities for earned media, which is what PR agencies spend a lot of their time trying to achieve. We’ll explore what’s happening in the PR agency world in the long-form FIR episode for December 2024. Also in this episode, an update on the social media landscape, with Reddit surpassing X (formerly Twitter) in the U.K.; a look at some of the key findings in “AI Activated,” the latest relevance report from the USC Annenberg School; there’s a waiting list for an app that’s being called a feed reader for the fediverse; communicators are gearing up for challenges that face them as Donald Trump prepares to return to the U.S. presidency; and there’s new information about how businesses are adapting to Artificial Intelligence. In his Tech Report, Dan York, recounts his trip to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, for the United Nations’ internet governance body’s meeting; he also shares his thoughts on efforts to protect children from social media’s harms.

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, January 27.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

Links from this episode:

• Reddit launches AI-powered Reddit Answers to upgrade platform search
• Bluesky promises to shake up social media. It might finally succeed.
• From Fox News to NBC, Legacy Media Wants In on TikTok
• Bluesky Is Different From X. For Now.
• USC Annenberg Relevance Report
• Navigating AI’s Impact On Marketing: Lessons From USC’s 2025 Relevance Report
• USC’s Relevance Report 2025: What It Means For The PR Industry
• The 2025 Relevance Report: AI Activated
• Edelman Staff Cuts Reflect Industry at a Crossroads
• Edelman Lays Off 330 As It “Simplifies” Structure For Greater Integration
• Edelman layoffs: MD Lisa Kovitz and other long-time execs among those affected
• The 7 biggest PR challenges for 2024 and beyond
• Vox Media Announces Layoffs, Lifestyle Properties To Face Restructuring
• No More Stalled Promotions, RIFs: Be Your Own PR Firm
• Announcing Surf, The First Browser for The Open Social Web
• About Surf Social
• Flipboard’s new app is a discovery engine for the decentralized web
• Flipboard’s Surf app is a big new idea about the future of social
• Flipboard just launched Surf, which is sort of like an RSS feed for the open social web
• The Trump to-do list: How communicators are getting ready for the MAGA takeover
• PR Pros Remain Mostly Calm Amid Uncertainty Over Trump Agenda
• Rollbacks and Repeals: How a New Administration Effectuates Policy Changes
• “The bar for engagement has been raised:” Execs on their hopes and fears for a second Trump term

Raw transcript:

Hi everybody and welcome to episode number 441 of four immediate release. This is our long form episode for December, 2024. I’m Shell Holtz in Concord, California. And I’m Neville Hobson in Kru and Somerset in England. It’s the week before Christmas as we are recording this, and in a few days time, it will be Christmas for those of you who celebrate like me no snow here and no white Christmas expected here in the uk talking to friends in in Colorado the other day that they’ve not got snow where they are, but it should have some.

So if you’re celebrating Christmas and expecting a white one, the UK in the south certainly is not the place to be. Nevertheless don’t count on it in San Francisco either. No, don’t count on it there either. So today is actually as we’re recording this, which is on Saturday the 21st, December, it’s the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere, the shortest day of the year.

And here in the uk we were lucky to see eight hours of sunlight today. The good news in the [00:01:00] south of England, less the further north you go. The good news, though, is that from now on the daylight time grows more every day as we get closer to the summer. That was actually a crossword clue this morning in the New York Times, is that the days starting today will be what from now on and the answer was longer, right?

That’s correct, yes. So it’s great. So to our show today, we’ve got some great stuff to talk about. But first let’s do a quick rundown to remind you of what we have covered in between these monthlies. What have we talked about since the monthly episode for November, which was three episodes ago. Or four, counting that one.

And we’ve done three basically since then. Now we’re doing this monthly. So episode 4 38 which we published in early, the early beginning of December. That was about Google’s AI overviews, which many are saying are turning upside down. Search engine optimization or SEO. [00:02:00] So we looked at the data, we took a look at the data and the trends, and had a good chat about that.

And recommend, we recommended some actions communicators can take to ensure that web properties still get attention as the shift to AI search continues. And that’s really what’s behind all of this, the shift to AI search. There’s that AI again. Pay attention. You’re gonna hear that a lot in this episode.

We’ve got a handful of comments to this one. Didn’t we show? We did starting with Shashi Beam Kanda an old friend of ours and of the show, he’s currently the principal research director for the Infotech Research Group, and he said, thanks for sharing, speaking with our members and trends that are surfacing first a reduction in organic traffic with the same level of conversions, which to me indicates the traffic is highly targeted even though there may be zero clicks due to AI overviews.

And then LLM traffic has started appearing as referring [00:03:00] sources. Though not much, I think only desktop traffic from LLMs will show in the analytics for now. So that’s what Shashi had to say. Heidi Sullivan who I met when she was at Cision said, great FIR episode. Lots of great and practical suggestions to get into AI overviews as organic search result Traffics.

Traffic declines, but we’ve all got lots of work to do. And Amy Santoro communicator, I know through IABC said Agree. I always double check AI research. Smart Amy. Smart. Good. That’s great. Feedback there. Episode 4 39 we published in mid-December that was talking about the top digital trends or digital marketing trends for 2025, and we focused really on agent AI in that episode.

That was the top trend that the report we cited. Highlight it. So we took a stroll into agen ai, which just a couple weeks ago was a [00:04:00] relatively new term in the mainstream. Suddenly everyone’s talking about it. And indeed, I’ve seen reports at around that time saying, oh, this is gonna be the word for 2025.

I’m pretty sure it’s likely to be Italy hyped like crazy. You can be sure of it and everyone will use it, not knowing, it’s not a made up word. I’ve heard some people saying this is a manufactured word. No, it’s not. It’s been around a long time. Look it up. It’s the dictionary. Find something. Yeah, it is signifying there’s something that acts as an agent for something or someone else.

It’s pretty straightforward, so you get a sense of what it’s about. But we looked at it and considered some of the possibilities for communicators along with the five other digital marketing trends from that report. So that was a pretty interesting episode. And then episode four 40 which we published just a few days ago during the past week.

Where we talked about influence and indeed experimenting for influence what some organizations are doing to enable their ex experimentation and what many more aren’t that ought to be as we discussed in our conversation. So [00:05:00] we reviewed some research on the subject and discussed ways, communicate this can apply experimentation to their work.

And that’s a topic I have a feeling we’ll be talking more about during 2025. So that’s where we’re at since the last episode. We have also just published the most recent episode of Circle of Fellows. This is the monthly panel discussion among usually four fellows of the International Association of Business Communicators.

I usually moderate it and I moderated this one, which featured Neil Griffiths and Russell Grossman from the uk, Martha Mka from Canada, and Jennifer wa from Canada. Hey, I was the only yank in this episode. And the focus of this was how communications as a profession can lead you to bigger leadership roles.

It was a fascinating discussion. A lot of people who have already listened thought it was one of the better episodes that we have done. Really went by fast. So that is up on the FIR [00:06:00] Podcast Network now and available for you to listen to or watch as a YouTube video. The next one is also scheduled for Thursday, January 16th at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and we’ll be talking about how communicators can spark creativity.

We only have two panelists confirmed at this point, but they’re good ones. Zora Artis and Amy Greenhouse will be joining me for that one and two other August fellows. So should be a fun one to talk about sparking creativity. I suspect AI will come up in that conversation too, since a lot of people are using AI to spark creativity.

To get off that blank screen or ideate with images and the like. So looking forward to that. And we have, as you mentioned earlier, Neville some great stories to report today, and we will get to those on the other side of the break.

A lot of [00:07:00] FIR reports recently have looked at the evolution of the social media ecosystem. We are seeing significant transformations reshaping how individuals and organizations communicate with platforms like Reddit, blue Sky, and TikTok. At the forefront of these changes, they each is introducing unique features and experiencing shifts in user engagement.

And it’s worth noting that with the exception of Reddit, none of those platforms existed 10 years ago. And 10 years ago, nobody was really thinking about Reddit as a contender in the social network space. It was, but that’s not how it was perceived. For communication professionals to make informed decisions for their organizations or clients.

All of these shifts. In the social media landscape is something that we really need to get our minds wrapped around. And it starts with Reddit. Reddit recently surpassed x, formerly Twitter, of course, in popularity within the uk. It’s now the [00:08:00] fifth most visited social media platform on your side of the pond.

Neville. In May, 2024, Reddit attracted 22.9 million UK adults. That’s a 47% increase from the same period in 2023. That’s quite a surge, and it’s partly attributed to enhancements in Google search algorithms, which have improved Reddit’s visibility and accessibility. I’ve noticed this in Google searches.

I’m getting more and more content out of Reddit. But Reddit’s commitment to user-driven content and community engagement resonates with a growing audience. And of course, there are those people who are just looking for that alternative to X. And while many of them are headed to blue sky and some to threads, there’s some headed to Reddit.

To further enhance user experience, though Reddit has just introduced Reddit answers. This is an AI powered conversational interface. They designed it to streamline retrieval of information. The feature allows [00:09:00] users to ask questions and get curated summaries that leverage the platform’s ex extensive knowledge base by integrating advanced AI capabilities.

Reddit aims to simplify navigation and improve content Discovery. Reinforcing is position as a leading platform for community-driven discussions. This use of AI is getting fairly common. There are newspapers like the Washington Post that are introducing similar features. Then there’s Blue Sky, which we’ve covered.

I would have to say exhaustively here on FIR. We’ll have more on Blue Sky later in the show in fact. But for now, let’s just say that Blue Sky has amassed millions of users reflecting a growing interest in decentralized social networking models, which at least so far, Reddit is not after a long period of generally ho hum attitude toward blue Sky.

Now it’s fair to say something’s actually going on there. Even though it may be banned in the US by this time next month, TikTok is increasingly becoming a [00:10:00] primary news source for younger demographics, prompting legacy media organizations to set up a presence on the platform. Fox News, NBC, they’re all producing personality driven content tailored to tiktoks format.

In order to engage this segment of the audience. Notable journalists are creating these spontaneous, unscripted videos that align with the platform’s emphasis on authenticity and relatability. Although TikTok doesn’t yet generate substantial ad revenues for these companies, it is viewed as a strategic investment in cultivating future audiences if it’s still around.

Now, these developments underscore the dynamic nature of the social media landscape. Communication professionals need to consider some strategies in order to account for this continuing. Evolution of the space. First you have to diversify your platform engagement. Look at emerging platforms like Blue Sky and [00:11:00] legacy platforms that you may not have been active on, like Reddit to reach audiences seeking decentralized and user-centric experiences.

You can’t be concentrated in just one or two networks anymore. You need to leverage AI tools like Reddit answers to enhance content discovery and audience interaction and adapt content strategies. You develop authentic personality driven content. For platforms like TikTok or wherever people go after TikTok is banned to effectively engage younger audiences.

It’s also important to stay on top of these shifts if you’re gonna engage with diverse audiences and leverage the opportunities presented by emerging technologies and platforms because this evolution isn’t gonna slow down anytime soon. You are right there. I saw that guardian story too about the surge of Reddit in the uk and it’s it is pretty interesting, isn’t it?

Particularly that growth in just a year, 47% increase. And you [00:12:00] outlined I think some of the reasons perhaps that is driving that growth. We talked about Reddit. A few episodes ago. And my concern about Reddit to companies if one says to an organization, Hey, you should be on Reddit. No, you need to ask why is your audience on Reddit?

Are the people you want to connect with on Reddit? Do your research before you make that kind of choice. But it is true, and I agree with the sentiment of what you outlined she, that you, the days are gone really where you would, and this sounds weird, isn’t it? 20 years ago less actually that 17 or 18 years ago that Twitter appeared and started something that became significant, such as we saw it in the latter part of the 2010s.

So probably about 2015 to 2018 would’ve been the peak of the kind of presence of Twitter as it was then. And that. Drew, as we saw and still see. One of the reasons, perhaps why it’s still [00:13:00] going organizations across the globe using Twitter as a formal communication channel, announcements opinion influential comment in response to others.

You name it, by organizations and the people who are part of those organizations. That is still true today but certainly nowhere near the power it had in those days. So there are alternatives. As we’ve mentioned some of the research we’ve seen, some of the reporting showing generational behavioral differences very marked compared to what they were before.

And the fact that gen Z in particular is wielding quite a big influential role which has grown in the past couple of years, so that’s surged with credibility. The landscape is totally different to what it was in those golden days where you just had a one or two major places that you could use to, to reach the audiences.

So we’re seeing this landscape shifting radically. I think blue skies. The most [00:14:00] interesting one. I’m there as you are from the pre-launch days. I’m there more now than Threads, which was my favorite place. It’s still a good place to be, but it’s not from my point of view. And it reflects what I see others saying to.

It’s not the place for engagement. At all in my view, and I’m not like some who join every conversation and respond constantly to others. I don’t do that. I’m more listening. Yet I find some of the people I’m connected with on, on blue Sky definitely. I seek them out every time I go there now.

Which is a new behavior for me. So I find that great. Yet professionally, I’m all over the place looking and listening at what’s going on. And Reddit I’ve been on Reddit since it started in the early two thousands. But I’m spending more time on Reddit these days in places where I like to be a number of the subreddits to see what’s going on.

I’m in and out more frequently, so that, that’s my contribution to that. So I think blues Sky in particular I was reading one of the other articles you linked to Shall, New York Times Clay Shi piece on [00:15:00] that. So I think it’s quite good what he had to say. And he talks about red blue sky might fail.

Sure it might not. I go with the might not. But it’s still working through how it’s gonna make money. And is it gonna do advertising? I did see some talk last week that some folks had discovered some screenshots that were posted by somebody that showed a subscription model. And where you pay a certain amount of money and you don’t see ads.

That’s, I think that’s more attractive. Way than just doing advertising or across the board. But again, this is all speculation. They’ve not confirmed or denied anything. Still early days, there’s, they’re now 25 million north of that number in terms of users, considering it was four months ago, they’re only 7 million.

So if numbers are important to you, then 25 million from seven is actually interesting. Very interesting. But it is good and it is a mark of what is evolving in this space. Stay tuned. [00:16:00] Yeah. A few thoughts based on what you were saying. I hadn’t heard about the screenshot of a subscription model and.

It’s interesting because I think people would’ve rebelled against that some time ago, but it has become so common in the podcast space that people are now accustomed to hearing about that concept. How many podcasts are there where you can hear the ad free version by subscribing?

NPR has that, the New York Times has that I think Crooked Media, which does Pod Save America and Pod Save the uk. They have it. And, grim and mild, which does lore, they do that. It’s getting really routine. So now I think people are going to hear other platforms adopting that idea, and it’s not gonna seem so, no disruptive or inappropriate.

So that could work in, in, in terms of the use of Reddit. I agree. You have to see if your audience is there, but I’d be willing to bet your audience is there, or at least some of them. There are [00:17:00] so many subreddits that are highly specialized around niches and interests that a quick search is gonna reveal whether there’s anything there for you in terms of reaching the people that you wanna reach.

But the other thing is, they’re still doing Ask me Anythings AMAs on Reddit. And you don’t need to have your audience there to tell everybody if you have the means of getting the word out, that you’re gonna be doing an a MA on Reddit, because people will go they’ll sign up in order to be part of that a MA if they’re interested in what the the leader or thought leader or influencer, whoever it is that you’re putting out there has to say.

I think there’s a lot of opportunity on Reddit. And the other thing is, of course you could tell people that you’re gonna be there and that’s where you’re gonna be hosting real conversations and again, attract people to the platform. And in terms of Twitter.

Government leaders and business leaders in the [00:18:00] like posting. It was also the place, as we have talked about a lot lately, where news tended to break. Yeah. And it’s not that they had the billions of users that, that Facebook for example, does but there were enough journalists following it that when news broke if it was a citizen journalist reporting something, they were on top of it real fast.

And if the journalists were breaking it first of all, they could source information on Twitter and then break the story on Twitter. And then as news continued to unfold, they could embed those tweets. There was no longer the man on the street interview. They were just embedding tweets in the story.

I don’t see anybody embedding tweets from X in the media anymore. So this is another big shift away from X that we’re seeing. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not gained serious momentum yet, although I’m noticing more frequently people talking about this group of journalists in this country have stopped [00:19:00] posting on TWI on X and then now on Blue Sky, there are a number of startup hacks full of journalists for individual publications some geographically based, et cetera.

So you can find this, it’s not yet easily discoverable at all, and it’s not yet by any means gained any momentum in the sense of the ubiquity of X. Share buttons to X everywhere you go on the web, on the worldwide web, you see it everywhere. Everyone has got a website with an article, has got sharing buttons and includes x.

I don’t yet see blue sky anywhere. I started seeing threads here and there, so maybe it is one of those slow burns, but I suspect. Blue Sky’s likely to pick up on that faster. We are seeing things like a developer ecosystem developing with some interesting things going on. There’s one I’m very keen on that I’ve been experimenting with, which is called Auto Blue, which which is a plugin for WordPress that you can use when you publish a blog post.

You schedule it for instance, or publish it manually, whichever that it automatically [00:20:00] shares that to Blue Sky. Threads has had that capability for a while and with threads, by the way, it also then shares it out to the wider fed of us by Mastodon. But Bluesky does it through its. A way it accesses the fedi verse so that connectivity’s there.

So these are all embryonic steps. I’m not sure when we will suddenly see a groundswell, but I suspect we will. And it will require something that does signify a wholesale shift from mainstream media, journalism’s journalists to a platform like this, for it to suddenly become truly in the mainstream.

And that then requires everyone else to put the sharing buttons and all that stuff. So this is not something that’s gonna happen overnight. Maybe towards the end of 2025, we might see something, but during the year it’ll grow. I believe, I don’t think it’s gonna collapse anytime soon. And it is gonna be an interesting year from this point of view.

Sure. And we’re gonna see during this year more of that shift of the media from X over to TikTok. [00:21:00] If tiktoks still around, and I’ve read a number of pieces that are speculating where people will go if TikTok is banned. And we should be clear what’s gonna happen if it’s banned. Is that the the Play Store and the Android?

It’s the Us, yep. And what it’s going to mean is it’ll be banned from the app stores. If you have it on your phone, you’re still gonna be able to access it. Yeah. But then you upgrade your phone and you need to reinstall it. It won’t be there. So it’ll be through attrition that will, there will be fewer and fewer users.

So where do the people creating these videos go? Do they go to reels on Facebook or on Instagram? Does everything shift over to Snapchat? Do they benefit from this? We don’t know. It’s all speculation at this point, but that type of video as. A real place now with that younger generation to the point, as I mentioned that mainstream media outlets are producing content aimed at that.

So that’s another shift to, to keep an eye on. And this is why I [00:22:00] think, we have to be decentralized as communicators. We can’t focus on Yeah, one or two of these. I remember when you said, oh, I’m already on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. I can’t do, I can’t handle anymore. I don’t have the bandwidth.

You gotta have the bandwidth. You’ve gotta be on all of these now. You do, there are tools that will help you get a sense of what’s happening across all of these. One I’ve been playing with recently is called sil, SILL, that is offering one appealing feature right now, which I’m taking full advantage of, is a daily email telling me the top six stories across Blue Sky in particular that.

My community is paying, is sharing, and I find that actually extremely good service surface is stuff I missed or wouldn’t pay attention to. It needs that to be far more robust and large in, in scale. But it’s a startup. They’ll have a, it’ll be a paid service soon as I understand from their emails recently.

But things like that, we’ve had those sorts of tools for quite a while on the web generally. But [00:23:00] this is different than just having it on a website. This is focused on the new social landscape. And it’s it’s interesting what’s happening. We have some stories to talk about that in, in later on in this show.

Yeah, somebody to pay attention to. Communicators need to be ubiquitous themselves across the social landscape and just understand. Who’s doing what, where, and is this something you need to pay more attention to? You have help. AI can help you with some of these things. There are some generative AI tools that you could, should explore that would help you stay on top of this.

And there, that’s the beauty of AI for you. And keep your eyes on it because there will be more tools coming down the pi. That’s very true. Which is a nice little lead into to this story. I was gonna say, that’s what I call a segue. That’s a segue. Exactly. I mentioned at the beginning that we that you’ll hear AI mentioned a lot, and this is true on, on, on this story certainly and others coming that this is such, so front of mind with what’s going on, that [00:24:00] understanding all of it is almost impossible for anyone.

So we’re offering our little bits on some of these topics. It’s also the time of the year when everyone is doing predictions and trends, reports. There’s so many of them. And we’ve talked about a couple in recent episodes. This topic, this one I’m gonna mention today, I think is definitely worth your attention.

So in December, just a week or so ago the University of Southern California’s Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism published its relevance report for 2025. This is the organization’s annual deep dive into the key Trends impacting public Relations. Each edition focuses on a key theme with the 2025 report titled AI Activated dedicated entirely to the impact of AI and pr, showcasing practical applications, ethical considerations, and future opportunities.

First, though, let’s understand context and perspective with regard to this report. These relevance reports began in 2016 to explore emerging trends and challenges shaping the communication and PR [00:25:00] industry, drawing an insights from leading industry experts, researchers, and academics. The report serve as a guide for communicators, navigating and ever evolving landscape.

Helpful. In other words, Microsoft contributed significantly to the 2025 reports theme, including key essays from Microsoft executives that provide practical insights into AI’s transformative role in PR and communication. Microsoft’s involvement underscores its leadership and integrating AI into communication and its collaboration with academic and professional institutions to shape the future of the industry.

So this report takes a definitive, optimistic view of AI and pr, but doesn’t shrink from pointing out areas of concern. In the forward USA’s, Fred Cook questioned the PR Rdic entity’s appetite for early adoption of new tech, of a new technology. Something we’ve touched on in previous episodes, Cheryl, especially one that could threaten its own existence, happily, he notes his concerns were unfounded.

The report shows that AI adoption has [00:26:00] moved from fear and skepticism to widespread activation within the PR industry, with communicators increasingly using AI to streamline operations, enhance storytelling, and address complex challenges like misinformation and bias. It also emphasizes the need for ethical AI governance and the balance integration of AI and human creativity.

So I’ve pinpointed three significant findings in this report. It’s a big report that covers a huge amount of thinking and certainly not something we can dissect in this episode. So highlighting 16 pages. 116. Yeah, that’s the PDF. Yeah. So first, AI is revolutionizing PR workflows. Tools like generative AI are now integral to content creation, media monitoring and sentiment analysis, significantly improving speed and efficiency.

Custom AI applications such as tailored GPTs allow organizations to deliver precise, compliant, and inclusive communication at scale. Second, [00:27:00] leadership and culture drive AI adoption. AI’s successful integration is often led by senior leaders fostering a culture of experimentation, innovation, and trust employees using AI frequently report feeling more valued, engaged, and empowered.

To take creative risks. And third, ethical and responsible AI is essential. The risks of AI, including misinformation, bias, and polarization require a commitment to transparency, inclusivity, and governance. Organizations must invest in AI literacy, adopt diverse data sets, and develop frameworks for responsible implementation to ensure long-term trust and equity.

The report positions AI as a catalyst for transformation in pr, offering tools to navigate challenges and maximize opportunities in an evolving business landscape. There is much to absorb and learn in this 116 pages, as I mentioned earlier, including in credible calls to action for communicators and organizations, and I do recommend spending time on that.[00:28:00]

It is definitely worthwhile. Some final words from Grant tos, global Chief Digital and Intelligence Officer at PR firm Berson, who in his essay titled AI is an uprising, not an upgrade. Answers two critical questions. First, what would an AI transformed organization look like? It would have fluid adaptive structures.

He says it would offer continuous learning and experimentation. It would be a symbiosis of human creativity and AI capabilities. And his second question, what must we do? We do to stay ahead even as everything changes rapidly around us? Embrace experimentation and calculated risk taking. He says, foster a culture of lifelong learning.

Develop agile decision making processes, cultivate trust between leadership and workforce. Now, all of those things to my ears, sound like we’ve been talking about this sort of stuff for a long time. Pre ai. Fundamental [00:29:00] things don’t really change that much. The ways you go about them perhaps do, but these to my mind, are absolutely critical.

This is about transformation. This is about organizational willingness as a personified by those who lead the organization and the others, including those who make up the organization, which is people, let’s say. Let’s face it. So we’ll have a link in the show notes where you can download a copy of the report for free in exchange for your name and email address.

There’s lots of work to do here. It seems to me she, oh, there’s a ton of work to do here, and I don’t know if it’s just the gloomy weather, but I’ve been growing more and more skeptical about all of this lately. Not the power of AI and the potential of ai, but organizational ability to adapt it. I.

Look at what organizations do in terms of how they manage their business and how they manage their people. And the need for oversight and the need for [00:30:00] governance doesn’t seem to align well with the way a lot of organizations approach their business. So I am not optimistic that you’re going to see a lot of organizations employ that kind of thinking, that kind of analysis and strategizing.

I think you’re gonna see the very large organizations do it, but when you start to get down to mid-size business and small business, I think you’re gonna see people either ignore it, misuse it, underuse it you it’s I think it’s not gonna be pretty for quite a while. And I feel that way about, I.

PR agencies and the PR industry as well. Because as much as I see, Fred Cook saying that he was gratified to see that the early appetite for adoption of AI didn’t create the kind of downside that, that he had anticipated. And as I’m thrilled to see the early adoption of any technology in the PR industry, which tends to be very [00:31:00] late in, in adopting new digital technologies.

They miss boats a lot, don’t they? They’ve missed boats as long as I’ve been in this industry, and that’s been a long time. And it’s very gratifying to see them not miss this boat. But what I think they’ve latched onto the writing capabilities of ai and can’t see much beyond that when again, I think that’s one of the least interesting things.

That this tool can do. And the way that it can help in a public relations agency or a public relations practitioner beyond that are massive. But we as an industry tend not to look past the craft of what we do very often. And so we’re very focused on how can this help us with the craft as opposed to the backends and the analysis and the management of relationships and the other things where there’s potential, especially as a agentic, AI advances.[00:32:00]

Yeah I see tot I get totally where you’re coming from on that shell and until recently I would be with you on that. I remember two years ago reading surveys from my, the likes of PRCA that talked about 25% of people they surveyed would never ever go anywhere near AI at all.

It’s not the future. Guess what it is. I think though that I’m far more optimistic that Sure. I’m, I have skepticisms here and there on the level of how this will work. You are right. I’m sure this is not, so the landscape is exceptionally uneven. This is not like on mass, everyone’s gonna move to, this is not gonna happen at all.

What will happen though is those who are really. Clued into this, who have studied this, who have listed, who have read reports like uscs and all the other documentation out there. Listen to people like Grant Toes and Fred Cook. They are the ones who will benefit from this. And indeed, we have a, an upcoming report where I’m gonna be talking exactly about that with case studies.

[00:33:00] So there is a lot of going good going on broadly, not just in pr, but PR is catalyzing some of the things that are happening and the people are taking advantage of these tools that are there. I feel that reports like this like this USC report and and I’d just given a gloss top level assessment of it, if you will read those 116 pages definitely worthwhile.

It’s. Presented in this Roy Rose tinted, look at all that. There is a lot of, yes. But in there that does give some things worth paying attention to. So it is not even I see that therefore, as opportunities galore for communicators who are clued in to what’s going on, to advise their employers and their clients in, in not in everything, they can’t, they’re communicators.

So broad business strategy is not their their focus. It’s how you communicate that and how you do what tools you’re gonna use to do that. So all working together, and that does require leadership. So you are right in one area. The lethargy, the resistance. [00:34:00] The total skepticism of some will interfere with that.

There’ll be obstacles to, to organizations doing this. But yeah, I just, I see this as a tremendous opportunity for communicators to take a leading role. Yeah. And another reason to pay attention to this report in particular, I think is because it is from the Annenberg School, right? Unlike, there’s a really good report out now from Fleischman Hillard.

There’s been one out, and I think there’s a couple of others from McKinsey. I’m sure Boston Consulting and Accenture and others have released reports. The thing about the USC report is they’re not trying to sell anything. They’re not trying to use this as a, as a lead generation tool. I and I know that Microsoft was a heavy contributor, but they do this trends report every year.

They’ve got a lot of experience with collecting and analyzing this data. So it’s worth listening to what they have to say. From that perspective. I think one of the things that’s going to be needed. Is for organizations at the top to look at the bottom up [00:35:00] use of AI and start to synthesize that.

And I, I’ll tell you what I’m reporting on it where I work, when I find an employee using ai, I’ll interview them and do a short article saying, this person’s using it. Look what they’re doing with it. I just talked to our head of accounting who’s using it for Excel. They have a bunch of Excel spreadsheets that they inherited from an earlier.

Time that were custom done and can’t figure out what the formulas are. So they’re just giving it to AI and saying, what is this formula trying to do? And it deciphers it. Or I’m trying to create a formula that does X, Y, and Z and it’s not working. Take a look. What am I doing wrong? And it tells them, so it’s speeding up their use of Excel which by itself is gonna save a lot of time and be very beneficial to the organization.

So the more those stories get shared, I think the clearer the uses become and people can see beyond their biases [00:36:00] and the limitations they’ve placed on how they think they can take advantage of a chat bot. Yeah, ab totally. Those are the kind of uses that people go, oh, they’ll thinking about, oh, it’s gonna chat GPT, I’ll ask, oh, I prompt it and it tell, tells me the things I can use in a report.

They don’t realize that this is way beyond that. That kind of use. You gave examples of there are loads in this article in an upcoming report later in the show that talks about case studies that I mentioned that gives you a glimpse into this. This goes way beyond the kind of things that you think AI is all about.

Certainly at an enterprise level, a big organizational level, some of the things that are improving workflows are truly quite extraordinary. And you think when you hear about it, you think, of course that’s what AI’s for. That can help you do that. So that’s a great example. The Excel. I can give you a small example on my own account.

Something I do mostly as a hobby, as a personal interest is PHP coding. And [00:37:00] I write codes. I’ve got three books that tell me how to write PHP and it’s a bit like I, I found in my old bookshelf the other day, HTML written, it was published in 2002. Boy was that leading edge at the time. But the book’s this thick and it’s huge.

So anyway I write stuff myself based on my limited experience so far. For instance, things like WordPress plugins, I have a a kind of a a playground site, a sandbox site that I try out stuff with. Usually it crashes everything. But since I started asking my AI for help. Phenomenal. So it’s improved my ability to deliver on that.

It’s increased my learning on how to do it and increased my confidence on saying if I try this, maybe it’ll work. ’cause that’s what I did before and it worked. So these are things you don’t need a company policy to do. What you do need and this is key in my view, curiosity and the willing to experiment.

And that last word we talked about that topic in, I think the last short short form version. The experimentation. It was [00:38:00] either 4 39 or four 40. I can’t remember which one it was. Four 40. That’s yeah. Okay. So that’s key. This report goes big on experimentation. And indeed grant tube’s point about.

What we gotta do to stay ahead, embrace experimentation and calculated risk taking is a key thing there that isn’t, doesn’t come naturally to everyone. That sort of approach. So that’s a leadership thing to encourage that. There We’re talking about then potentially transformation, how you run your organization.

So this is, these are all elements that are connected and we gotta do this though, I think. Let’s temporarily leave the world of AI behind and enter the cold, cruel world of business. Earlier this month, Edelman, the world’s largest PR firm, announced the layoff of 330 employees representing over 5% of its global workforce.

This reduction is the largest in years for Edelman and was part of a strategic restructuring aimed at simplifying its [00:39:00] business model to better align with current client demands. Edelman’s restructuring reflects broader trends in the industry where firms are consolidating and adapting in order to stay relevant.

The recent $13 billion merger between Omnicom and Interpublic Group, creating the world’s largest advertising conglomerate is an example of this shift toward integrated services and technological investment. Edelman’s, CEO. Richard Edelman addressed the A os pretty candidly. He said, I don’t like to do this.

I’ve held off as long as I can. If I were running a public company, this would’ve happened months ago, but I need to run a business. And that’s the job I’m very sympathetic to that point of view. His layoff affected a number of very high level people in the organization, including our friend Steve Ruble.

Most of these folks took to LinkedIn to announce the fact that they were leaving. Now, Richard’s take underscores the financial [00:40:00] pressures even privately held firms face leading to difficult decisions to maintain fiscal health. There were a number of factors that influenced the decision, not the least of which was a revenue decline.

The firm anticipated an 8% decrease in US revenue and 3% globally for this year. If anything signals a need to make operational adjustments, that would do it. The question of course, is why are these revenues declining? We’re gonna get to that. There’s a growing demand for integrated services prompting Edelman to streamline its structure.

They had a bunch of specialty brands that were under Edelman Edel. There was Edible Revere, saludo Mustache, EGA, Delta. These were boutiques and every one of ’em had their own support staff. So Edelman was paying for accounting and it and the like for multiple companies. Now they’re all just gonna be hoovered up into Edelman and allow them to have that interdisciplinary.

Type of an approach to the work [00:41:00] that they do. There’s also been some significant shifts in the media landscape. The reduction in traditional media outlets and widespread newsroom layoffs have limited opportunities for PR professionals to secure earned media placements that challenges traditional PR strategies.

After all, how many people when they think of PR think that it’s media relations and there’s less and less media relations to be done these days. That media contraction is just one of the headwinds the industry is facing. There’s also, of course, the rise of AI and digital platforms that are forcing agencies to adapt by integrating new technologies into their service offerings.

Clients are more and more seeking comprehensive solutions to combine traditional PR with digital marketing, and this requires a more integrated approach. Now, despite these challenges, there are plenty of opportunities for agencies and their employees. Agencies can expand their offerings to include digital strategy, content creation, social [00:42:00] media management, data analytics, all to meet the evolving needs of clients.

They should embrace innovation, leverage AI and other technologies to enhance efficiency, open new avenues for client engagement, embracing technological advancements, particularly AI can streamline operations and provide deeper insights into audience behaviors. And. Improve your campaign effectiveness.

And then we need to focus on owned media. Because of the decline in earned media opportunities, agencies can help clients build and manage their own media channels. It could be blogs, social media platforms come up with some new stuff. If there’s a dearth of local media coverage, maybe that’s a vacuum that you could help fill, but this will maintain direct communication with target audiences.

Now, for PR professionals, this period of transformation offers a chance to develop new skills and expand your expertise [00:43:00] into areas like digital strategy and integrated communications. The client’s demanding versatile communicators. Who can navigate the complexities of mod modern media landscapes that’s rising.

That presents career growth opportunities for those who are willing to adapt. And if you’re an in-house communicator, like me thinking of working with an agency, I’m not, you should clearly define objectives and ensure that the agency’s capabilities align with the organization’s goals, particularly in digital and integrated communications.

Regular communication and setting measurable outcomes can enhance the. The effectiveness of your partnership with a PR agency and if you’re actually thinking of a career in a PR agency, then it’s important to recognize the industry’s dynamic nature. Challenges definitely exist. As I’ve outlined.

Agencies do offer diverse experiences and opportunities to develop a broad set of skills. Prospective professionals should seek agencies [00:44:00] that invest in employee development and embrace innovation. These are the agencies that are most likely to thrive as the industry continues to change. Yeah, that’s quite a picture you’ve painted there.

Shell, it is something I think that I see this in the UK as well. Not, there’re probably similar reasons. Basically you’ve gotta reinvigorate your business, you’ve gotta trim the fats and all the stuff that Richard DA was having to address as a leader of a business that IE is running a business for those affected by layoffs, redundancies as is the word used most frequently here in the uk.

It’s a challenging time without doubt where suddenly you are on the job market along with quite a large number of others with similar experiences and skills as you similar age typically. And therein is another issue, which is that of ageism. I hear people talking about that quite a bit.

That Hey, gray Lives matter. Yeah it’s challenging and some of the advice that common sense advice that you outlined is absolutely [00:45:00] spot on. You need to do this and even though you may not feel like doing it, use your time between now and the new year. You are on a break to update your profile on LinkedIn.

Friends, that’s gonna play a big role for you. Whether you believe that or not, it probably is going to. And all the things that you’ve been saying you haven’t had time to do, now’s the time. You should look at courses on LinkedIn learning. Get up to speed on ai. There’s some terrific content there.

And if you are an ai, if you’re a LinkedIn member on the premium lower, you’re paying for it. That’s part of the deal. Definitely worth it. I’ve been doing that. Not for the same reasons as the as we’re discussing here, though. So get up to speed with things. AI in particular. There’s a great article, one of the stories you shared in the show nutshell from o Dwyer.

This was good. No more stall promotions. RRIFs be your own PR firm. And written by Jane Genova, who’s a kind of a coach for seniors as describes the bio. Great tips here on on what to do. Some of things you can do, leverage your reputation when you’re talking to people. Approach everything as a grand [00:46:00] experiment.

There’s that word again, experiment. That’s what I tend to do anyway. Approach everything as an experiment and so that, that changes your outlook and okay, even in the face of the fact that you’re suddenly let go. And it may not be the financial aspects of that worry you ’cause you’re probably quite cozy if you’re a very senior role.

It’s the sudden lack of the environment that you’ve been accustomed to the kind of authority that it brings you by your role, by virtue of your role. There are still many people in organizations who see. Influence and worthiness as, as explained as, as basically explained by your job title.

And for me, a job title is the least significant thing I recognize others see it as one of the most significant things. So all that’s suddenly gone. So this is the time for that. And I think it’s the nature of things. So a word I hear a lot these days, she, you probably do fractional. I see people calling themselves a fractional CCO, chief Communication Officer.

In fact, Heidi Sullivan, who was one of our commenters who’s listed currently is a [00:47:00] fractional CMO. I find it a dreadful word to describe this, but I recognize that people like it. It also sounds those who say I’m fractional, 16 different roles, you are fractional. Wow. I’m trying to visualize the pie in imperial measure, not metric, how many eights of an inches.

That’s stuff like that. But that’s how it is. And we’re all this is how we use information online to explain our perception of people and where they’re at in their journey, let’s say. It’s a time for constant renewal. It seems to me that you’ve got to be on top of all of these things, particularly at a time when you know, coming up right behind you are those earlier generations who are younger more agile, physically, literally, than you are as you get older.

And you’ve got to be make yourself readily attractive to others from a work point of view. That, that’s an interesting challenge considering one of the things that I keep hearing about the younger generation is that they wanna show up when they wanna show up and they’re gonna sit at their desk on their phones and they just, those damn young whipper snappers [00:48:00] aren’t willing to do the work.

I tell you I’ve worked with people recently who are as clients who are a lot younger than me, and their attitudes, actually I’m more like the younger than them, even in my attitudes to behaviors in the workplace tools that I use. And they do. But it, this is a not a new thing.

This is how it’s always been. I, you’ll remember this. I know you will. Desktop publishing, when that came in, anyone could publish a newsletter, and they did. It’s, and they did exactly. You, I remember when employee communicator had to get their hands around all, every department distributing their own newsletter.

It’s incredible. Greeting Shell and Neville and FR listeners all around the world. It’s Danor coming at you on this last episode of 2024 on a very snowy and cold day in Vermont, having just returned this week from the desert Sands and warmer temperatures of Riyadh Saudi Arabia. I was there for the 19th Internet Governance Forum or IGF organized by the [00:49:00] United Nations and it was a remarkable event.

It brought together people from all across society, from government, from industry, from civil society, from the technical community, from just regular old users, from people of all walks of life and forms who are there to talk about how do we govern the internet in such a way that it can be, what are the future conventions, the norms, the things that we will do?

And it was a remarkable gathering, people talking, and of course, this being 20, 24, people could come in remotely. And so you had speakers from around the world who were there participating and talking about everything. Of course, AI had many sessions because it’s 2024 and we gotta talk about ai.

There were sessions, there were some sessions around the metaverse type of thing. There were lots of sessions around security, around safety, around cybersecurity, around resilience, around connecting the. The next, the remaining two and a half billion people, there [00:50:00] were sections on gender inclusion, on just, all of these things.

Closing a digital divide, the use of the internet, amazing conversations, talks, and everything else. And it was all of us talking about that. Which brings me to my two points this year as we close this time out. This next year, 2025 is gonna be a cha time of a lot of change around the world. Obviously here where I live in the United States, we have a new incoming administration with all the changes and challenges that may bring in different ways, but that’s happening elsewhere.

All across Europe, we’re seeing new governments coming into place and new elections happening just north of me and Canada. There are signs now that there will probably be a new election and new government next, early next year. It’s happening all over the place. Governments are changing, societies are changing in different ways, and one of the things that communicators should pay attention to some degree, [00:51:00] is what’s happening at the UN level.

Next year will be the 20th anniversary of something called the World Summit on the Information Society or WSIs. And that was an event that. Set up a lot of how we are talking about the internet, how we’re governing the internet, how we’re engaging, and what norms and conventions we’re doing. There’s gonna be a lot of work next year to look at review that where we’ve come in 20 years and where we’re going.

Part of that will be what is the future of this event? I just went to the IGF. Will it continue to be an event that goes on? And there are powerful forces that would like to end it. They would like the decisions about our future on the internet to be made only by governments and only by government representatives.

So you and I, the people who are out here in the industry or in the technical community or civil society, we would not get a voice in the future of where so many things go. So it’s important. [00:52:00] WSIs plus 20. You’ll see these acronyms. WSIS plus 20. You’ll see this being thrown around as it all happens, heading up toward meetings in June and July.

And it’s important because this will determine what voices will be part of the future of this at a government level anyway, and this can then cascade down into what we do. We, at the Internet Society where I work, we have a saying about the internet is for everyone. And we add to that now, of course, and everyone must have a voice in its future, so pay attention this year.

The second thing I’ll mention is that we are seeing all around the world a rise in wanting to protect the children, which has always been here. But what’s happening is this movement to impose legislation around age verification or age assurance. I think I mentioned in the last report maybe about Australia, was declaring that anyone under the age of 16 should not have access to social media sites.

Nevermind that they don’t know how they’re gonna do [00:53:00] that. But a number of these laws are happening here in the United States. Many individual states are saying that it’s also happening in other countries places. Everybody is trying to get on this game to say that, people under a certain age should not have access to content in some ways, and I’m a father of two daughters.

I get that. I understand it. I appreciate that. The challenge is how you do it. There aren’t easy ways, and what’s happening in many cases is that people are looking at solutions that will require all of us to provide some kind of id. You might get to the point where if you go to your local Starbucks and you want to get online, you might have to show some kind of ID that says what your age is.

It’s not a joke. There’s actually a law that would’ve created that. But the reason I say this for us as communicators is some of these laws could have extremely punishing fines. Extremely punishing, penalties. So you as a [00:54:00] communicator, you might have a forum for your members. You might have a forum for your community.

You might be engaged in something like that. But with some of these laws, you would have to be sure to gate and be able to know the ages of people being there, or else you might be fined incredibly. So you gotta pay attention. You’ll hear different names, age verification, age assurance, assuring the age.

They’re similar, but those are the words that we’re gonna hear as we go into 20, 25 and beyond, because a lot of the policy makers of the world want to solve this and are trying to put something in place even though the solutions aren’t that great. Let me just end it there and say thank you to all of our FIR listeners.

We are in a time of celebration, whether you celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah or Kwanza or the winter solstice or whatever, this is a time of [00:55:00] celebration, a time of recovery reflection, and a little bit of a pause before the chaos of what will be this next year and more best wishes to you all. Thanks for listening over this past year.

You can find more in my audio in [email protected] and back to you, Shea Neville. Bye for now.

Thanks for that report, Dan. Really good explainer you gave on what you experienced in Riyadh at that UN meeting and the whole situation with regard to how the internet is evolving. I’ve read reports recently one that strikes me a lot about the disappearance of content online as sites go dark or people change web pages or whatever it might be.

And the fact that we’ve also got others who want to control it, and this is not new. You will know that at the Internet Society, the splint internet, there’s things going on. So seeing this kind or hearing you describing these sort of policy areas is really helpful. [00:56:00] Good report. I also enjoyed the discussion around the availability of social media to kids.

I remember seeing a headline the Day Australia passed the Law that banned social media for kids under 16. And it said something like, Australia banned social media for kids under 16. Good luck with that. And I was just hearing, I think it may have been yesterday on the news that, the Australian government has alerted social networking companies to be on the lookout for a mandate to have an age verification method in place that is something more robust than simply clicking a box that says I’m over 16 which of course any 12-year-old can do.

So we’ll see how that goes. At some point it may be easier to just not offer your service in Australia but it’s a genuine concern. We’ve seen Instagram come out with their teen version of Instagram with more controls [00:57:00] and some very warm family oriented TV commercials to promote that.

I, I am impressed by the way, with how much they’re investing in raising awareness of this. Tool how much adoption it’s getting. I haven’t seen, but it’s definitely a concern and it’s nice to see that whether it’s being done well or not. It’s nice to see people trying to address it.

Agree. We got the same here in the UK with the online safety bill, which is chugging along. It’s getting attention in some areas. The regulator is flexing muscles in that area in terms of what it requires of the major social networking companies. So I think we’re gonna see in 2025, the early part, certainly more on these attempts to.

Safeguard children but also to control access. The down the flip side of this, according to all those conspiracy theorists on X anyway, is that this is how you control your citizen’s access to the internet. Yeah. If you were China or somewhere, I’d say that’s [00:58:00] likely to be what you’re doing.

I don’t believe that’s the kind of prime reason the Australian government’s doing this at all, or the UK government, the online safety wheel, but that’s part of the discussion landscape to be Sure. Yeah and I do hope. Governments that are looking at implementing these kinds of restrictions are thoughtful in the approach they take.

I, I, a flat out ban is not a good thing. As I’ve heard a number of people point out. If you’re part, if you’re a, if you’re a child and I’m talking about maybe adolescent aged and you’re part of a marginalized community, if you are L-G-B-T-Q for example having access to that community online can be a lifeline for you.

As opposed to a place where you’re made to feel ugly or inadequate or whatever it might be, that is causing some of the distress along among a lot of youth. In ensuring that the access to those communities is still available to these people is important. A flat out ban could be very harmful to some people.

Yeah. [00:59:00] So let’s talk about surf. Last week, Flipboard maybe you’re familiar to many of you, the online magazine creator aggregator, et cetera, that you can read content on an app very visually. It’s very good. It’s been around a while. We’ve talked about it before with publishers on, on, you can do publish as well as a consumer.

Now we have publishers there individually, but Flipboard has had some success since the advent of the Fedi verse emerged a couple of years back in being one of the leading players that bring this to the forefront in people’s minds and how they use this. Last week they up unveiled surf.

An app that many people are calling a feed reader for the Fedi verse and described by Flipboard itself as the first browser for the open social web designed for Android and iOS Surf seamlessly integrates decentralized platforms like Mastodon Threads and Blue Sky with RSS feeds, podcasts, and even YouTube offering an all in one way to [01:00:00] explore and curate content from across the open web.

Unlike traditional feed readers, surf combines discovery, integration, and personalization into one user-friendly experience making decentralized networks accessible to a broader audience. Fast Company highlights how surf leverages decentralized protocols and open standards to build connections that weren’t feasible before, reflecting a shift towards a more decentralized and open internet.

The Verge notes that surf blurs the lines between feed readers and Fed Verse clients making such distinctions increasingly irrelevant. Meanwhile, TechCrunch calls surf a bold reinvention for Flipboard, moving from curating mainstream media to championing exploration of the open social web. A standout feature of surf is its customization as Sarah per notes in her TechCrunch report.

Surf allows you to build personalized feeds on specific topics, whether it’s AI model development or mounted biking by combining [01:01:00] real-time searches, hashtags, blogs, YouTube channels, podcasts, and more. I’m on the beta wait list and can’t wait to see how surf might redefine how we engage with the decentralized web.

I’m on the wait list too, and I can’t wait to take advantage of this. I remember tools like this from long ago that would curate and aggregate for you and of course feed readers. There is a still a feed reader. Feedly is still functional. There’s quite a few and I still use it.

Yeah I use one, what’s it called? Innovator? I can’t remember now. I haven’t used it for a bit, but I’ve had been a member, I’ve been a user of it for about a decade. There are around, and of course we know much of the content we get. Football being one example is delivered via RSS. No one knows about that.

No one cares about, that’s right. R ss is still, it’s exactly what it is. It’s the plumbing of the internet. It just because Google did away with its Google news reader doesn’t mean that RSS went away. Podcasting wouldn’t be possible without [01:02:00] RSS. What’s what’ll be interesting for me with this will be to see how well it’s adopted because, feed readers.

I am, you and I lived on feed readers back in the salad days for blogging. Feed Demon. Feed Demon, that’s right. And there were others there, there was some early ones. Where you had to download and install them just software for any other application. But I don’t think that, if news readers were that popular, Google’s a news reader would still be around.

I think most people just went and found blogs to read and having this extra step for curating them that required an extra piece of software was too much. Just like starting a blog was too much for most people, which is why when Facebook came along, oh, I don’t have to start a blog. I’ll just post here.

And is it as, as Facebook, as good as blogging? I would argue it’s not for a number of [01:03:00] reasons. But. It accommodated all those people who weren’t interested. So yeah, I think this could be great. If it gets a lot of uptake, it could create a virtuous circle for the Fedi verse as more people adopt this tool, more clients open up for social networks that are part of the fedi verse that leads more people to adopt this and similar tools and round it goes.

We’ll have to see because again I question how many people out there in the, among the great unwashed are gonna be interested in using a tool like this. I will though. Yeah. Oh, me too. I could see a real advantage, but linking to what we talked about in one of our early topics today is for communicators to get a view across the landscape of what’s going on.

This would be helpful to do that where you are able to bring in content from all these different platforms into a single location. Now, I know I’ll hear some of you listening say, yeah, but we’ve been hearing about this kind of thing forever and there’s been apps that [01:04:00] you can do that with. True. This, though, the uniqueness of this is the social web, if you like, let’s call it the Fed averse for the time being.

This is what. Core of it. And it remains to be seen exactly how it’s gonna work, the features that it’s gonna offer other than what some have posted publicly with screenshots on the early alphas of this. The best reporting I have seen actually is Sarah Paris’s writing in Teran explains very clear very well done.

The features of this, but the customization one that’s one that appeals to me a lot because I’d like to have something that brought in content I’m interested in into a single location. And if it’s a mobile app, like this is, there’s a web version coming, they said, by the way, but the moment they just on the mobile app this would be great.

So for that reason, I’m looking forward to it. But communicators pay attention to this. If you are thinking, yes, I should be paying attention to more things, this could well be the thing that helps you most. Save you a lot of time. And Sarah Perez has been at TechCrunch forever. Her reporting has [01:05:00] always been top journalist.

Yep. Yeah. Yep. But we’re only about a month away from Donald Trump, assuming office for his second term. And communicators across various sectors are strategizing right now to navigate. What they’re anticipating is shifts in policy and public sentiment. The second Trump administration is expected to bring changes that are sig going to significantly impact communication strategies.

Communicators are gonna need a proactive and adaptable approach to deal with these changes. The administration is poised to implement substantial policy changes across multiple domains, and we’d be wise to be ready to have. Strategy in place proactively to deal with them. Let’s start with economic and regulatory policies.

A focus on deregulation is anticipated, particularly in energy and finance. And while this may reduce the cost of compliance for businesses, it could also introduce risks related to environmental concerns and [01:06:00] financial stability. If you work in financial services and there’s a lot of deregulation it was deregulation that led to the housing mortgage crisis in 2018.

So be on the lookout for those types of things. Look at the regulations that have been scrubbed away from your industry and do some risk analysis of what that could mean and start thinking in terms of your crisis preparation for those there’s technology and communication. There’s an expected emphasis on regulating online content moderation.

In the us that would mean reforms to Section two 30, which shields internet companies from liability for user-generated content. This could affect how organizations manage their digital communications and engagement strategies. That’s right in our wheelhouse. So we need to be ready to deal with that.

We’re looking at changes to environmental policies. The Trump administration is less concerned about climate [01:07:00] change than the Biden administration, and potential reversals of previous climate initiatives may alter the landscape for corporate sustainability efforts influencing how companies communicate their environmental commitments.

And of course, there’s DEI the Trump administration is wholly sympathetic to the war on DEI, and a lot of organizations are caving to that pressure. Others are just changing what they call it. In light of these anticipated changes, and probably lots of others, communicators should consider a number of strategies, and the first is proactive engagement.

You gotta remember the relations part of public relations. We need to develop a comprehensive understanding of the new administration’s policy agenda and then engage with policymakers and stakeholders early. That’s the only way we’re gonna be able to shape favorable outcomes and mitigate the challenges these things could create.

Adaptive messaging is another thing we should be looking at. Flexibility and communication [01:08:00] strategies are going to be just essential crafting messages that resonate with diverse audiences while aligning with shifting policies. That’s how you’re gonna maintain public trust and organizational credibility.

We also need to be crisis ready. Given the potential for increased scrutiny and politicization of having robust crisis communication plans in place is vital. This includes preparing for scenarios where company policies or statements may attract public or governmental attention, and think about how you’re going to communicate with your employees about all of these things.

Transparent and consistent communication with employees is critical, especially as policy changes may affect workforce dynamics. Keeping staff informed and engaged will foster a co a cohesive organizational response to external developments. Journalists are anticipating a renewed hostility toward their work under the incoming Trump administration.

We’ve already seen a, b, C agree to pay $15 [01:09:00] million to settle a suit with Trump, and he’s filed a new one against the Cleveland Plain dealer and the polling company that showed a poll just before the election with Trump winning in that state. He did not with Trump losing in that state, he actually won.

This could influence media relations strategies. Companies should be prepared for a potential potentially adversarial media environment. Consider building stronger media relationships than you have now. Establishing and maintaining those relationships with journalists can help facilitate more accurate and favorable coverage.

I think it’s more important than ever for your people to be trained as spokespersons. If they’re well prepared to handle challenging questions and convey key messages effectively, that’ll make life easier. And our need to monitor the media landscape is more important than it ever has been. We need to stay informed about changes in media dynamics and public sentiment so that we can adjust our communication messaging and strategies accordingly.[01:10:00]

But we need to be proactive, engaging with stakeholders, adapting our messaging strategies, preparing for crises, and navigating media relations thoughtfully. If we do that, we can guide our organizations through this period. It’s a complicated landscape without any doubt. And of course the major focus of everything you’re saying is in the United States.

Yet this is a global issue. Particularly if you just think of it purely from a business point of view that companies with business all over the world, many companies have operated in multiple countries, and therefore this is important to everyone. In that sense, I’m thinking of, how you would prepare for this when there is so much unknown still.

So you have to work on some assumptions, I would say, but there are some fundamentals you can do. Sure. This man is coming into the White House, that he’s said he’s gonna appoint this person, that person. And most of those appointees that he’s mentioned have attracted i, horror from normal people.

Let’s say particularly when you have someone like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who’s gonna [01:11:00] be in charge of what vaccines, at least anyway. Everything health related. He is. If he’s confirmed, he’ll be the Secretary of Health, human Health and Human Services. Yeah, I was reading an article by Paul Holmes in Provoke Media talking about this in relation to healthcare generally, and big pharma in particular, that got me thinking about this very thing.

How do you prepare for this when you truly do not know what policies are gonna be in place and the direction of travel, if you will. So it makes it tricky. But you’ve got a plan no matter what, and it could well be, you can have this happens then we do this, or if we do this to make that happen, we will do it this way or whatever.

So it’s, it is in a sense, I suppose crisis, communication, planning in one sense, looking at it that way. But this affects everything and everybody, it seems to me we don’t know what’s gonna happen. We do know in some areas that we are not gonna what happened again, lot does depend on your political perspective, I think.

So if you are a maga you’re gonna love what’s coming, I suspect, hopefully, [01:12:00] hopefully reason will win the day. But what we’ve seen with this shutdown I suspect not. So the US is very unique. It seems to me, in the openness and transparency of its really dirty laundry politically that is laundered further whole world to see.

And that’s what’s been happening with this, and this is now happening with this as well. Very interesting. Yeah. I spent three years in the pharmaceutical industry and if I were in the pharmaceutical industry today I would be focused on the prospect of RFK Junior as the head of HHS. I’d be looking at his beliefs the people that he and Trump are planning on putting into other positions of leadership like the FDA and what their beliefs are and what policies they’ve talked about.

And start strategizing. Do we need a, I have seen a ton of communication now, unfortunately, I don’t, I haven’t seen this from the pharma industry, although I don’t know how much they’re, controlling from behind the scenes, but [01:13:00] talking about measles and talking about polio and how great these vaccines were, and denigrating the belief as I would myself that, rFK Jr. And some others have that. Oh, it wasn’t really the vaccines that did that. It was the change in the weather or, whatever it might have been. And building public opinion matters, right? And if you see a surge of public opinion and heated public opinion saying, no, these, I don’t want polio bad, I don’t want my kid in an iron lung.

It could influence policies. So this is what we need to be thinking about now. You can’t wait until the legislation’s introduced right? Or signed even worse. We need to be anticipating based on our industries and what we know about what Trump has said he is going to do, and what the people he’s appointing have written what their policy positions are.

We need to be paying close attention to this right now. Yeah. Good call to [01:14:00] action there, Cheryl. So let’s explore a topic. We’ve discussed a great deal during this year, and that’s reshaping the way we work, which is the rapid adoption of generative AI tools like Chat, GPT in the workplace.

Employees in nearly every industry are turning to these tools to code, right and research. As we’ve mentioned before, many workers are adopting AI faster than their employers can issue guidance or policies. Consider this according to a Financial Times report. Last week, nearly 25% of the US workforce and almost half of those in software and finance are using AI weekly.

In many cases, workers are experimenting in secret, wary of being labeled as lazy or incompetent. There’s also a fear that productivity gains could lead to job cuts or for those who stay heavier workloads. That said, not all organizations are lagging behind. Many companies were initially cautious, some even implementing blanket bans over privacy concerns, but others are already far ahead [01:15:00] rolling out detailed policies and infrastructure.

Businesses like McKinsey, Walmart, and JP Morgan Chase aren’t just catching up. They’re leading the charge says the FT building, secure in-house tools and moving full steam ahead into execution mode. For them, AI is no longer an experiment. It’s a strategic asset embedded into their processes. It’s clear there is a transformative trend reshaping industries worldwide, where employees across various sectors are leveraging AI technologies to enhance productivity, automate processes, and modernize customer experiences.

Notably, many organizations are not just keeping pace. Are leading the charge with comprehensive AI strategies and implementations. Also, last week, Google published an updated list of 321 real world generative AI use cases from the world’s leading organizations. We’ll have a link to Google’s report in the show notes, but let’s briefly review six industry specific examples.

Retail fast food chain. [01:16:00] Wendy’s is piloting generative AI at their drive-through windows in Ohio, streamlining order processing and allowing staff to focus more on customer service, beauty and cosmetics. The Estee Lauder companies are partnering with Google Cloud to transform the online consumer experience using generative AI enhancing personalization and engagement.

Automotive Volkswagen of America has developed a virtual assistant within their My VW app, enabling drivers to access information and receive assistance through AI driven interactions. Telecommunications Telecom implemented a Google powered voice agent to address customer calls increasing efficiency by 20%.

Healthcare, Qlik Therapeutics leverages AI to describe, to develop prescription digital therapeutics, enhancing patient engagement and treatment outcomes. Education Beyond 12, a tech enabled nonprofit has developed an AI powered college coach to offer [01:17:00] scalable coaching to first generation students providing support through text app and web platforms.

These examples illustrate that AI integration is not a distant future, but a present reality with companies actively deploying AI to gaining competitive edge. However, this rapid adoption also brings challenges including the need for clear governance, balancing innovation with risk, and navigating evolved legal frameworks.

AI’s rapid adoption is undeniably transforming the workplace, offering opportunities for greater efficiency, innovation, and customer engagement. However, as organizations navigate this new reality, the CRI critical question remains, how can they strike the right balance between empowering employees to use AI effectively and mitigating risks related to privacy, ethics, and workforce dynamics?

The examples we’ve highlighted show that companies across industries are proving it’s possible to integrate AI in ways that drive value while remaining thoughtful about its implications as we explore this [01:18:00] topic. In episodes of this podcast, we’ll focus on what leaders, teams and communicators can do to harness AI’s potential responsibly and ensure it’s a tool for progress, not disruption.

Michelle thoughts? I’m trying to open my VW so I can see the, yeah, I was gonna say, you have a vw do you have this in your My VW app? I haven’t used the, my VW app in quite some time I need to log in and see, and of course it’s doing two factor authentication, so I have to go check my inbox.

Oh yeah. But I have an ID four electric vw, which I love, with the exception of the fact that the range is only about 185 miles, so I’m charging it all the time. But I don’t take it on long trips. We take Michelle’s Lexus on long trips, but, I think this is absolutely right, is the need to look at what other organizations are doing and how they’re using it in order to spark the ideas about how you can use it.

I think two things that are going to drive this much faster. One is the the introduction of agents, which we talk about [01:19:00] ceaselessly. Because as soon as an organization says, oh, we can get this done that way, it’s not just, here’s a query and I’m gonna get a response, but we can actually have these tests routinely taken over by ai.

And, the thing to keep in mind about agents is it’s not one agent that’s gonna do everything. There’s gonna be an agent that does one thing and an agent that does another, and an agent that does another, and that you’re gonna end up with, dozens or hundreds of agents running in your organization.

So that’s one of the things that I think is gonna drive this. And the other is, as more and more software has the AI baked into it, and you’re using the software anyway I think this is what’s going to lead organizations to realize that this is just part of price of admission now for doing business.

And it’s gonna end up in, in every organization at some level. I think those that are strategic about it are going to get the edge. But you see all of these case studies and all of these different organizations and you can’t imagine it’s gonna take long before their [01:20:00] competitors go, Hey, wait a minute we can’t fall behind with this.

You’re right. I think it’s worth to, to your point, knowing what or looking at what others are doing. These six examples I gave are just six outta the 321 in that Google document. They’re definitely worth looking at. There’s a handful I read and I then researched them online to find out more information.

You can do the same Google it. Actually, you know what that’s a generic word. Now Google the lowercase. Okay. It means search. And it probably isn’t gonna be Google. It’s not Probably flex it. Yeah, flex, yeah. Flex it. Exactly. It’s good to to read this the FTS piece. Was in, I thought initially when I first read it, there’s an opinion piece really unduly negative about no one’s doing anything in organization.

It corrected itself or it added in. But there are some highlights and there are some highlights, and this really relates to what we were discussing earlier about the PR business missing the boats. And a couple of years ago, they were definitely way [01:21:00] out there in understanding and even willingness to get involved in all this.

They’ve come a long way in that there are some examples in the 321 of companies in, in that area. But the main thing is to look at this in retail, in automotive, in telecommunications, what people are doing in those areas. There are other case studies too. I’ve used many, I think we’ve talked about some of these, of what’s advertising agencies are doing, how they are employing generative ai.

And of course you are right to mention, the the rise of agents ’cause that was in my mind when I was talking, when we were in the conversation about the the report from USC that doesn’t mention agents. So this is all written before the sudden awareness of AI and agents that has really captured imaginations over the past, literally the past month or two.

And the way you described it exactly was gonna light up bulbs in people’s minds about, oh, this is how this is gonna give us value. And you mentioned an ai, an agent for this and an [01:22:00] agent for that. You’re gonna need super agents to manage all the agents. So this is, that presents some really interesting scenarios, I think.

But we are in another time of rapid change with tools around us. There’s, you and I talk about ai. I see many other people talking about this. I see content constantly about this kind of sifting through all of that. To find the stuff of value is something that communicators ought to do very clearly.

And tools like this or resources like Google’s a big help for that. Yeah, I joked about plexing it but I talked to more and more people who are using either perplexity or chat GPTs new search functionality instead of Google. And that led to an article that I just saw yesterday that Google said, watch for it.

At the top of Google searches, you’re now gonna have an AI search capability too. They see the writing on the wall, they see people shifting over to perplexity and chat GPT for search and yeah, they know they need to do something about [01:23:00] that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I’ve noticed, and I’m sure you have now on Google search, if you used Google search for things, and I still do typically at the top of the search is an AI generated answer to your question.

What I’ve noticed recently though is that they’ve now giving sources to that they weren’t doing that to start with. So I tend to think how can I trust what they, who’s saying this now? They’re providing the sources. So if they are literally shifting as the goalpost is shifting, they need to do that and they can still offer something that people might find a value, but they need to move faster than the current doing.

I, it seems to me, yeah. The AI overviews with the footnotes is a step in the right direction, but I think they’re planning something much more robust and more along the lines of what you’re seeing from perplexity and open ai. That’ll do it for this episode of four Immediate release.

But don’t go away just yet. We have a few things to let you know about not the least of which is when our next monthly episode will drop. We’re planning to record that on Saturday, January 25th. So it [01:24:00] will drop on Monday, January 27th. Note your calendars, folks. Also to let you know that January the third, 2025 is the 20th anniversary of this podcast for immediate release.

We are not gonna do what we discussed a decade ago that when we hit our 20th we’ll be on a cruise somewhere at the Pacific, maybe around Hawaii or damn, or yeah, we’re not gonna make it. But we’ll do it on our 25th. Yeah. The third is actually in our calendars for one of the short form midweek episodes.

So we will devote that or we’ll talk about that on the anniversary date when we publish that episode, which will be on January the third. I will have done the math and I’ll know exactly what number episode that actually is. Good. We’ll have lots of statistics for you. Also to let you know that we have another FIR interview coming.

Sean, I had a terrific conversation just a few days ago with Martin Waxman. Many of you will be familiar with Martin in Canada, and [01:25:00] we chatted with him at length. Great conversation That will be published week commencing January the sixth. That’s the plan, so look out for that. It was a wonderful conversation.

It was he’s one sharp guy. He is A lot of people who listen to FAR may remember Martin from inside pr the podcast that he did with Joe Thornley and Ginny Dietrich. Yeah. We suggested that it would be nice to hear those three voices together again, they would one of these days, and he seemed amenable to that idea.

Yeah. In the meantime, as you’re waiting for all of this great content from the FIR Podcast Network you can comment on anything that you’ve heard about in this episode or anything that you think we ought to be talking about or would like us to consider. There are a lot of ways to do that. You can send email to fir [email protected].

We love audio comments and haven’t had one in a while, so attach an audio file to that email up to three minutes. We’ll play it and you can be part of this [01:26:00] conversation. If you don’t have the wherewithal to record that, go to the FIR website, fir podcast network.com. You’ll see a send voicemail button on the right hand side.

Just click that and you can record up to 90 seconds. You can record as many of those as you want, and I will get those and look forward to playing those on the show. You can leave a comment on the show notes at FIR. Podcast network.com. You can leave comments where we let you know that we have posted new episodes on Facebook and LinkedIn and on Blue Sky and Threads and MAs it on.

We’re everywhere except X. We’re not on X anymore. And we also very much appreciate your ratings and reviews. Oh, and I forgot to mention that you can also leave comments where we share the latest episodes on the FIR podcast network page on Facebook and the FIR group on Facebook. [01:27:00] So also to quickly mention, and you mentioned Blue Sky.

We just opened an account in the name of FIL podcast until now. We’ve been sharing in our individual accounts on threats. Okay. We’ll continue to Oh sure. And, but now we have a dedicated account that replaces the X account. So look for a widget at some point appearing on the VIA website. But in the meantime it’s FIR podcast on Blue Sky.

So if you wanna look for us, follow us, that’s where you’ll see news and information about upcoming episodes. And you can there too, of course. And that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release.

The post FIR #441: PR, AI, and Social Media Are All Shook Up appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

The communication function offers practitioners a rare opportunity. It is one of the few roles in any organization involved in every aspect of the business. In this Circle of Fellows panel, you will hear international perspectives on how the role of communication extends beyond the exchange of knowledge and information. The panel shares thoughts on how communication fosters organizational collaboration and can be viewed as a cornerstone for professional success. Learn how the fundamental principles of strategic communication excellence can apply across different business sectors, underscoring its value in any professional context, and how effective communication enhances teamwork and innovation, drives organizational growth, builds trust, inspires change, and helps achieve results. A communication role can position the communications professional to influence, impact, and potentially lead other business areas. (Did you know that the late Intel CEO Paul Otellini was a marketer before ascending to the company’s top job?).

About the panel

Neil Griffiths, ABC, Chart.PR, IABC Fellow, is the Global Head of Diversity, Equality & Inclusion at ERM, the world’s largest sustainability consultancy, where he is responsible for the global DE&I strategy and engagement plan. Neil’s background is varied, having spent the better part of 20 years in a series of external, brand, strategy, and internal communication roles before moving into DE&I. Neil has held leadership roles in several public, private, and non-profit organizations. In the volunteer space, Neil has held multiple leadership positions within the IABC and the Company of Communicators (CoC), one of the City of London’s modern Livery Companies. Volunteer highlights include being an inaugural Global Communications Certification Council member, Career Roadmap Committee member, Chair of the 2018 IABC World Conference (Montreal), Past Chair of IABC’s EMENA region, and, as of November 2020, Junior Warden of the CoC. Neil is a recipient of the IABC Regional Leader of the Year, Rae Hamlin, and IABC Chair’s Awards. In 2019, Neil was named IABC Fellow, the highest honor bestowed on an IABC member. With co-author Deborah Hinton, Neil has published two studies on the current and future state of the communication profession and advocates for channeling your best communication self regardless of where and how you work.

Russell Grossman, DipPR, ABC, FRSA, FCIPR, FCIM, IABC Fellow, has been a communications practitioner for nearly 40 years and a UK Senior Civil Servant since 2006. He’s the Director of Communications at the UK Rail Regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, and head of the Government Communication Service (GCS) internal communications profession. He’s a non-exec director of the “ Engage for Success ” movement to advance employee engagement and sponsor for both the GCS Fast Stream and GCS Talent. Russell and his long-suffering wife of 38 years are blessed with four children (one of whom also works within GCS) and five grandchildren.

Martha Muzychka, ABC, MC, speaks, writes, listens, and helps others do the same to make change happen. Martha is a strategic, creative problem solver seeking challenging communications environments where we can make a difference. She helps her clients navigate competing priorities and embrace communication challenges. Martha offers strategic planning, facilitation, consultation services, writing and editing, qualitative research, and policy analysis. Her work has been recognized locally, nationally, and internationally with multiple awards.

Jennifer Wah, ABC, SCMP, MC, IABC Fellow, has worked with clients to deliver ideas, plans, words, and results since she founded her storytelling and communications firm, Forwords Communication Inc., in 1997. Her agency has won over two dozen awards for excellence in strategic communications, writing, and consulting; Jennifer is recognized as a storyteller and strategist. She has worked in industries from healthcare to financial services to academia and is passionate about the opportunity for stories to inspire actions and reactions within organizations. After serving as faculty with Royal Roads University, Jennifer was named an Adjunct Professor at the UBC Sauder School of Business, where she teaches business communication to future business leaders. A lifelong IABC volunteer at all levels, Jennifer most recently served as past chair of the Ethics Committee and is looking forward to welcoming all to the World Conference in Vancouver in 2025.

Raw Transcript:

Hi everybody and welcome to episode number 111 of Circle of Fellows. This is a monthly panel discussion of fellows of the International Association of Business Communicators on topics of interest to those of you working in organizational communications, PR, marketing, that type of thing. And I am Shell Holtz.

I am Senior director of Communications at Web Corp. We’re a commercial builder in California, headquartered in San Francisco, and I’m coming from home today in Concord, California. I have a great panel with me today to discuss an extension of last month’s topic. Last month we talked about executive communication.

Today we’re going to talk about communication and leadership, which is adjacent but not directly connected to last month’s theme. And I’d like there are our panel to introduce themselves. We’ll go clockwise as I see you on the screen that puts you first. Russell. Hi [00:01:00] there. I’m Russell Grossman.

I’m director of Communications at the UK Rail Regulator, the Office of Berlin Road. And I’m also the head of profession for internal communications for the UK government. In the context of today’s discussion I’ve been in my current role for nine years on my particular executive committee. And previous to that, have sat on various boards and executive committees of organizations.

Thank you, Russell and Neil. Hi everybody, this is Neil Griffiths. I’m coming to you from Saff from Walden in the uk, which is just outside Cambridge for anybody that has any ge geographical knowledge of the uk. I am global and Europe, DEI director for Kearney, which is a global management consulting firm.

I’ve been with them for the past 18 months prior to that. Spent a long time also in professional services, in the sustainability space, working in a variety of roles, not just in, in diversity, equity and inclusion but also a long background in [00:02:00] communication roles. Looking forward to the discussion.

Me too. Jennifer, you’re up. Hi everyone. I’m here in North Vancouver, Canada which is just across the water from Vancouver Proper, where the World Conference will welcome professional communicators from all over the world. Next June. I’m super excited to see you all here. My agency is called FORWARDS Communication, and through that agency I do work in strategic storytelling consultation with organizations.

I’m also an adjunct professor at the UBC Solder School of Business, where I teach business communications. Really looking forward to today’s conversation and Martha. Thank you. She, I’m Martha Zeka. I’m based in St. John’s, Newfoundland and Labrador, the east coast of Canada. I also like Jennifer sole proprietorship and independent consultant.

I do a lot of work coaching nonprofits as well as corporations working in the private sector [00:03:00] and a fair bit of board experience also at the not-for-profit level. So fair bit of engagement in terms of communications. I’m also a part-time instructor with the Gardner Institute School of Business at Memorial University, where we do ongoing professional development for people in business.

So it’s been a great opportunity to share the communications message and promote communications excellence. Thank you. And just a note to those of you who are watching live with us today. You do have the opportunity to participate in this conversation. You’re on YouTube there’s a place where you can enter your question, your comment, your observation and we’ll pop it up onto the screen and make it part of the discussion and really hope that you’ll take advantage of that because it makes these conversations more interesting when we’re able to talk about the things that you tell us you’re interested in.

Just to kick things off, I as a, as an avid fan of artificial intelligence asked [00:04:00] one of the AI models for examples of CEOs who got their start in communications. And it gave me an interesting first list. Chris Foster, who’s the CEO of Omnicom James Wright global, CEO of Red Haas Richard Edelman, of course, CEO of Edelman.

Chris Ruby Media Group and Julianne Richter head of Ogilvy. And I said, okay I can easily see how one might ascend to the leadership of a PR or advertising agency from within the ranks of that organization. Are there people who are running organizations that are not communication focused, that got their starts in communication and the model said, oh, sure.

Misha Dunna is CEO of Space Hive, a community fundraising platform, spent 20 years in communications. John Fallon is the former CEO of Pearson Global Publishing and Education Company. He had previously served as their Chief communication [00:05:00] officer and Sue Clark, former CEO of Sab Miller Europe transitioned from a background I.

In corporate communications to leading the European division of that beverage company. And where I work at Webco, our manager of outreach, a wonderful person I just love working with. She does all of our workforce development things like that. She’s new to this role. She had been in public relations and communications for about 15 years before that.

So making the transition seems to not be uncommon. What is it in your view about working in communication? And by the way, I should mention that the one that I knew before that and listed in the promotion for this episode was Paul Delini who was the CEO of Intel, who was the chief marketing officer there and came from a background in, in marketing.

So what is it about the communication field that lends itself to [00:06:00] moving into. Leadership roles that are outside the realm of communication?

I’ll start by saying everything. And I speak to my students about communications skill. These are business school students, and I speak to them about communication skills being the superpower foundation that they need to succeed in business because really the elements of understanding your audience linking it to the ability to link to the business objectives and communicate that with with through the right channel, with the right tone, et cetera, are all the hallmarks of, of great leaders and and frankly the leaders I’ve admired most shall to your set of examples or not most, but some leaders I’ve really enjoyed working with have been ones ones who’ve had a background in communications because they see the value of that of that superpower really. My experience is that leaders get to [00:07:00] be leaders either of one of two things.

They’ve either crawled on top of everybody else, shot others in the back and done dastardly things behind the scenes in order to crawl to the top of the leadership, or they are simply good communicators themselves. I myself often challenge the idea that we call ourselves communicators. Were, in my view, practitioners in communication, but the true communicators in a business actually are the leaders.

And as Jennifer says it’s something which is absolute the, these skills are absolutely fundamental to being a leader. And so perhaps it’s surprising that more people from the communication profession actually don’t end up in leadership. And I’m sure that’s something we can explore in the next few minutes.

And I definitely would like to explore that because it’s always struck me working in communications that we’re one of the few functions that has a good solid overview of pretty much every function in the organization. We have our fingers in everything. Neil, you had mentioned that there are [00:08:00] skills in communication that equip people with the tools that they need to become a business leader.

What kind of skills did you have in mind? Yeah, very much aligned with what Jennifer and Russell have already talked about. I think there’s, there are a few others in the organization that really understand how the organization works than the communication professionals in that organization in order to get our job done.

We, we need that collaboration and we need to understand how decisions are made. We need to understand, where the seats of power are. We need to really be connected to the organization in a way that other functions I just don’t think are. But then if you think about the fundamentals of what makes communication great, Jennifer referenced a number of them already, but that solid understanding of your stakeholders their needs their preferences how you’re gonna get to your outcomes.

I, I think that is just such a fundamental [00:09:00] capability that you can transfer beyond just the communication process, right? And you can extend that into decision making. You can extend that into operations. You can extend that into all sorts of things that, that leaders really need to grapple with.

But it’s that. If you think of the communication excellence model that IBC is so great at you can see how so many of those elements really apply across. And I think it’s that ability to have the vision because great leaders have a vision and can motivate and mobilize to create that positive response, that forward action.

But it’s not just about building the relationships, it’s also about seeing where those relationships are possible and in communications. When we look at storytelling and building those elements that tell a good story, it’s the same thing I find with communications, taking the different elements and highlighting who’s going to be, taking action, [00:10:00] who’s going to be leading, who’s going to be bringing up from behind to make sure that everything is heading in the right direction? And to me it’s about the relationships, it’s about the listening component and the collaboration. But it’s being able to translate that vision into action.

It’s also having a good judgment. Particularly being able to judge from a variety of diverse and apparently unconnected elements. So one of the things that we know about communications is that ultimately it’s an art. People will argue, I think, correctly, that it’s an art based on science, but it is an art because it involves humans who don’t always behave in the same way twice.

And that ability to bring these disparate elements together to form if you like, the patterns in the mess is something that we probably do most days and don’t think about naturally in communications. But it’s something that a lead, a good leader is able to practice and to put into and to put into action.

To, to good effect. And, Russell, sometimes I [00:11:00] think that communication professionals and those of us who have don’t know if it’s the way if our brains are wired this way to start, or and I guess it’s different for every person, but I sometimes find that we are the people in the room who can see that lay of the land, who can see that the connective tissue.

And I’ve experienced that as a volunteer around an IABC and other tables and around fundraising tables and executive leadership tables and tables of engineers where I have no idea what dialect they’re speaking. But but there is an ability, because of my communications, training and background to see where the river is going to run through the valleys and, and rise up rise up through mountains, et cetera. And I don’t really know where that comes from other than an ability to always be looking for that connectedness. I think there’s a level of curiosity in our profession that you don’t get in many other professions. I won’t mention HR or financeer specifically who tend to follow process rather than pragmatism [00:12:00] sometimes.

But it’s also true that when we apply ourselves in that kind of situation you just described, er, we also become the conscience of the organization. We see things that maybe others do see, but nobody else wants to point out. What I often call being the grit in the oyster without being in the pin in the balloon, but also the joker at the court of Klia.

And sometimes around the board table, my, my experience is sometimes it’s better not to be at the board, but around the board table if you’re part of the board, sometimes you are compromised in being able to call things out that you may not be if you are sat around the board table and not actually part of the board.

Neil, you were talking a few times about decision making as one of the outcomes that we get from our experiences as communicators. Certainly at the leadership level, it’s all about making key decisions about the future direction, the company, things like that. Where in communications does that decision making skill come from, do you think?

It does. It’s about the stakeholder analysis piece. Again, I think for me but [00:13:00] also when we’re developing really great communications, they’re grounded in research, I think there is a lot of instinct but we’re also great at really fully understanding the issues from a variety of perspectives.

And I think that skill and that capability. Sets us up to make really informed decisions and seeing different sides of it. So I think that’s probably where I’d come at this from. I think it’s also the ability to play a decision forward. Think about what’s gonna happen next, what are the consequences on our stakeholder groups.

And I think a lot of the time, in my experience and it speaks a little bit to what Russell just said about being the conscience. It’s helping the room that you are in, or the people around that table really understand what is the impact and are we really going to do we really fully understand from all perspectives what impact we’re gonna have?

It could be as simple as, okay, if we make [00:14:00] this set of promotion decisions right now, do we fully understand the impact of those who aren’t gonna be on, those who aren’t gonna be promoted? In the same way as are we about to acquire a company, what impact does that have on our operating environment, our diversity aspirations, whatever it is.

I think we’re just great at really considering all aspects of of the decision. Because we’re good at stakeholders, we’re good at research and we’ve got our foundation in that. And just to build on that, Neil when you talk about stakeholders, I think that’s not just external stakeholders, but internal stakeholders as well.

Absolutely. The way that we are communications is able to again, see those partnerships internally and see the op and see the opportunities. I don’t go into any client organization without asking my client. Okay, where are the change people? Who are the HR people? Who are, because those are the people who are [00:15:00] the DEI people.

Those are the people who also I know are going to see a clear path through a different lens. But whose work is going to elevate mine and vice versa. When I even think about, a few years ago I got to work with a really brilliant change enablement professional who really embedded me.

And I haven’t done pro sci training, but really embedded me in the whole ad car model around change management. And when you think about those elements awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and reinforcement, all of those, and I think the change management people would agree, really rely ultimately on, on communication skills to move audiences and partners toward those various states to take people through change and transition.

Arguably again, communication communicators and and our partners are the ones moving organizations and communities of various sorts through those, through all sorts of [00:16:00] transitions. I think it’s really important to recognize that communicators also operate with various lenses. And it can be the DEI lenses, as Neil has highlighted.

It can be the stakeholder lens. It can be the research lens. If you look at policy development, program development, evidence-based decision making, where you take in data you also have to factor in the human data that you collect. And that’s why I think in terms of applying those lenses so that we can make good decisions and support good decisions, being able to have access to, what Russell highlighted that sort of innate curiosity of how does this work and why are we doing this and who else should be involved? Is there a different way that we could be doing that allows us to be effective communicators because you’re just not standing on a street corner and broadcasting a message over and over again.

There’s a whole process of engagement and understanding that [00:17:00] has to be in place in order for action to result. Yeah. I also think it, it’s important that we come to this without an agenda beyond supporting the organization and its goals. And people have biases when they make proposals or wanna make decisions.

And with that big picture to be able to say, but wait a minute, have you considered the impact on this group of this decision? And in terms of that big picture, I am reminded of a story Charlene Lee tells of a company. This was in the early days of blogging where they had started a couple of blogs and one of them was having a significant impact on their customer support.

People were getting answers by going to the blog rather than calling the customer support center. But in one of their blogs, they inadvertently violated a securities and exchange commission rule and were fined in the millions of dollars. And the lawyers. Immediately jerked [00:18:00] their knees and said, we need to shut this down.

That cost us X million dollars. And it was Charlene who stepped in and said, how much money do you suspect you have saved with the blog in terms of people getting answers and not having to call the company? And they said as we put pencil to paper, we estimate that’s in the $20 million range. And she said, okay, so you’re $15 million in the black.

You’re gonna shut this down. Why? Now, I think leaders, when they’re in the throes of the emotions around a decision, stop thinking about things like cost benefit analysis. And that objectivity in that big picture helps us bring that back to the table. I think you’ve just mentioned ahead, just, and I agree with that.

I think you’ve just mentioned shell, one of the factors and skills that we haven’t mentioned yet that you do need if you’re gonna become a leader, and that is the ability to work and manipulate data. Because ultimately as somebody said it, I think it was Liam [00:19:00] Fitzpatrick. If you come with data you leave with respect.

And I think as communications practitioners sometimes we tend to waffle and talk about words and commas and grammar and stuff like that. But ultimately at the board table, it is the data that the finance person, and the CEO is really interested in and have. If you’re able to do that effectively, that’s when I think you become a true leader of the organization.

Completely agree with that. And I think we can probably unpack that a little bit more actually. But I just going back to the point that you were making, shell, I think, when you spend years and years being the person who has to communicate and find ways of engaging people with the decisions and the, the like it or love it that, the way that the organization is going, I think you do develop a skill of saying, okay, hang on.

So you are deciding this. How are we gonna explain that? How are we gonna rationalize that? And I think just that process of going, [00:20:00] doing that for years and years does impact how you then in the moment very quickly can see whether or not something is a good or a bad decision. And I, I think that there’s a lot to that.

It’s something that develops over a long time. But I think we’re really good at it. And, sorry, just to quickly build on what you were saying not just how are we gonna explain it or rationalize it, but how are the people hearing it going to feel? And here’s the data about what we know about, the generalized data about what we know to anticipate they’re going to feel, and therefore, how should we adjust our message accordingly so that we can move people through this change or this transition, or this impact of some kind or another?

We do have a comment. Brian Kilgore shares a good PR person will spend much more time with customers and clients than will other executives at similar levels in hr, it, manufacturing, or even r and d. And I think that’s an excellent point. I remember I, I worked for a pharmaceutical company for a few [00:21:00] years and once a quarter.

I went out with a sales rep as he made calls on doctor’s offices. And I, you have no idea how valuable it was to hear directly from the doctors about how their relationship with the company was. Any thoughts on this?

Oh, I agree. I, when I worked in a large organization and I was probably one of the few senior managers who ate lunch every day in the lunchroom, and it was just a really good way to get a read on what people were thinking because, you could sit there and participate and contribute, but most importantly you could listen and get a sense of, what were the things that people liked?

What were the things that were perhaps not going the way they thought they would, or where there might be some misunderstandings. And it gave a sense you could, get a pulse on the organization. And I think if we can create those channels and those opportunities to talk to people about what’s [00:22:00] happening, you get a sense of that reality of how the organization is operating right at the ground level.

Yeah, I think that applies to internal communications as well. I did work when I was consulting with a big NGO in Washington, and they had a leadership board that ate lunch in a private dining room and never mingled with the employees except one. One of them came down into the cafeteria, grabbed a tray, knew all the cashiers by name and picked a different table to sit at every day.

The research showed that there was one leader in this organization that employees trusted not a big stretch to guess who that might have been among that leadership team. He really built those relationships. Leads to another good question is, for both internal and external relationships, how does a communicator go about building those in order to facilitate good communication, good collaboration.

For me, I think it’s [00:23:00] understanding what it is that they need, right? It’s that whole point of understanding the business or the organization, how it works how things get done ultimately. And that way you also find out the, where the win-win really sits. So when you are in a particular situation as a communicator or as a leader the what’s in it for them as part of whatever it is that you’re working on.

I’ve got change in mind, but what, I guess whatever it is that that it is that you’re working on. Yeah very true. And I think of the, the kind of little bit overused, but still still meaningful Mr. Rogers line, look for the helpers. And I think communication professionals are often seen that way.

And again, to my point, when I go into a client’s organization, I look for those allied professionals those folks who work in in similar fields to communications where where their goal is to both understand the impact on a group [00:24:00] and and. Take people through whatever they need to, whether that’s a process, a change, a towards something different, et cetera.

And generally when, when you find people in an organization who are like-minded in that way, working toward similar goals in similar ways you start to create community and alliances that amplify what we do. It’s also about being curious about people. I think it’s something that, again, as communications practitioners, we probably do more naturally, but to be curious about people, their backgrounds, what was their, what were their previous employments?

Possibly what’s their family background? What’s their cultural background? What do you know about them that you can relate to in a way that you can strike up a conversation, that you can remember things about them, et cetera. And I think, we all go around with kind of virtual rolodexes on what we know about certain people in a good way in order to both strike up and or, and then cement relationships sometimes over, over many years.

We work in a [00:25:00] profession where often you come across people that you may have come first across, years ago, and then you meet them again, perhaps in a different guise but you still remember things about them. I think that’s quite important. It is about being seen. I remember I once worked had this amazing supervisor who’s a leader of an organization and who kept a stack of note cards by her telephone.

And whenever she saw something that somebody had done or that she noticed, something that they had said or contributed to, she would write them a note. And acknowledge that contribution and the power of being seen was tremendous. And people would say, wow, I, I didn’t think that she would notice that I had done that.

Or, I’ve been doing this for years and nobody has said boo and now this person comes along and says, thank you. Or That was a great piece of work or whatever. So being seen and creating those spaces where people can be [00:26:00] acknowledged for their contributions, I think is part of how you build those relationships and build a community where people feel supported.

And that then when they are being given information that then they have the tools to start, putting that vision into action. So to me, I think it’s a combination of that big picture, but also those little things that add to the operations, the smooth functioning of an organization, both internally as, as well as externally.

Okay, so it’s the time of year when we’re all going to holiday parties and getting together with friends. That kind of rush where people say oh, we have to get together before the holidays, before the end of the year. And I’m sure that you all have been in a situation where you come back, you leave a gathering like that, and you think the, you think about all the things you learned about the people that you were speaking with [00:27:00] about a challenge they might have about their kids, about what they might want for Christmas about their pet, an upcoming travel adventure and the, and personal things as well as professional things Again.

Challenges there, something that’s stressing them at work. And often I come, also come away from those gatherings thinking, huh, isn’t it interesting that not that many people asked me that about me? Not that I care to be asked. I’m, I, like Russell says I’m a curious person, so I want to know those other people’s stories.

But I think part of it, Martha, to what you’re talking about is that kind of idea of holding space, of giving people room to tell and share their story in ways that, that we then can perhaps see a more meaningful thread or moment. Whether that’s recognizing someone for a little. Tidbit of something that they didn’t you know, they, that they didn’t think anyone noticed, or whether it’s just remembering a little detail of of, again, a person’s [00:28:00] life or their a conversation that you’ve had.

Holding space for that in our own brains and our own professional practice has a profound impact on the people and the communities around us. There was some fascinating research that was reported by a number of outlets back in August. This was from an organization called the Observatory on Corporate Reputation, which was a new one on me.

But what they did was, they examined the fortune thousand companies and found that roles of chief communication officers that had an additional role tacked onto it. So it was chief communication and blank officer had risen 88% since 2019. And outnumbered the total number of chief communication officers who only did communication.

And they’ve ranked the additional roles that these officers have. [00:29:00] Chief Communication and Marketing officer chief Communication and HR Officer, chief Communication and Sustainability, ESG impact chief Communication and Corporate Affairs Officer, chief Communication and Brand Officer investor relations, public affairs, and DEI all being added onto the CCO title.

Is this a way that organizations are saving money by not having additional people sitting around the table? Or do they see communicators as uniquely positioned to take accountability for these additional roles? I. I think this works in both directions. It’s interesting in terms of what you said, that all those titles began chief communications, and and that does suggest that the chief communi the communications element was the principle, although most of the ones you listed actually were also, and another communications discipline with the exception of hr.

But what I’m seeing is that you’re seeing communications and strategy put [00:30:00] together, for example or communications and corporate operations, for example, or in one or two cases communications and one or two operations of the business. And to your question, I think it I think it, it, when I say it goes both ways, I think either you can see that the communications partner’s been squeezed out and someone else has done it, or the opposite.

And in the opposite case, that’s often been down to the quality and the assertiveness of the person that was in the communications role to say. And to demonstrate that they can do more than simply communications, because communications is a more generic business function than the organization expected.

But this is where I think it’s also important that communications practitioners who are capable don’t just sit in their box to be communications practitioners. And demonstrating that either at executive level, around the board table or elsewhere in the organization is a space that we should be operating if we feel we’ve got the capability.

I’ll stick with you there for a minute. Russell, at what point then [00:31:00] would a communicator stop thinking of themselves as a communication practitioner and sort of transition into perceiving themselves as a business leader? I think it’s when they’re sat round, the board table, executive committee, whatever you want to say, and they’re thinking, hang on a second I could do that job as well.

Or, there’s nothing particularly special about that particular role that doesn’t include a lot of generic elements of my skillset that I could apply that. And I think I’ll suggest to the CEO that next time, for example, there’s a vacancy in that particular area. Maybe he or she wants to combine the two roles together.

And I think that’s probably the point. It’s a, I think it’s also a point in a person’s career which is about their confidence as well as competence in the organization.

Other thoughts on that? Anyone? If you work in the not-for-profit sector, you often get roles that are. Layered upon each other. And the one I [00:32:00] see most frequently is communications and fundraising. You also have, communications and community relations. So there’s part of that is driven by budget considerations because they recognize the need for that role, but they may not necessarily have the budget for a separate person.

So the communications function absorbs that as a better fit than perhaps other areas. But I think where you see the transition from a communications officer to a communications director or director of communications and strategy comes with that strategic higher level analysis that allows you to start applying the things that you have seen and gathered in your initial years in the role within the communications function to apply to other components of the business operation.

Think shell, to your question about is it which came first with regards to the el the the use of that title [00:33:00] and what it means for organizations. I observed during Covid, as did many of us, that that organizations, there was a reckoning among organization, amongst organizations, a realization that communications was perhaps more essential than they even realized.

And I said at the time that kind of, it was this spotlight on communication professionals. Professionals. It was our time to shine, to show up to really profoundly make a difference within organizations. And I would sus my own hunch would be that what you’re describing or what that research showed is a bit of organizations needing to perhaps performatively indicate to their audiences that communications is a foundational element of their organizational structure.

Now, I think that was an earned bit of performative titling perhaps. But I think that could be part of it.

I think another. Discipline where communications [00:34:00] has developed some expertise recently I would say over the last maybe 35 years or so, is technology. To some extent we’ve always been engaged with technology at some level. I remember doing press checks with blue lines, so I understood printing technology.

I carried a little book from International Paper called Pocket Pal wherever I went. But digital technology has really become the foundation of most of the communication work that we do. So we’ve had to become expert in that. I was recently invited to speak at a gathering of all of the IT people who work for companies that are owned by my company’s parent company.

Flew to Long Island and talked to a room of about 60 people about how we’re doing AI at Web Corps. Seems that. This is something that we end up doing quite a bit, which is branching out of communication into other areas of expertise. How do we leverage [00:35:00] that? And also how do we make the case for the kind of investment in that will, serve the goals of the organization and the needs of the communication function.

I think knowing the history behind communications in some respects. I remember being at one of the IBC conferences in London and we were asked to put when we used different things or acquired different things and how we applied them and just seeing how technology influenced the work that we did.

Previously when I first started communications, we used to hand deliver our news releases and then we adopted the fax, and then we had fax lists, and then we adopted email and listservs. And in terms of how technology functions in the organization, communications professionals are among the early adopters who, because.

We can see the efficiencies that result, but also because we’re curious, could this make our work better? Could it be faster? How do we make our presentations [00:36:00] more engaging? How do we share information visually to reach people in a different way other than the printed word? How can we share information across multicultural communities and so on?

So I think for me, the role in communic technology in communications is really how we can do things that will allow us to have greater impact. And to me, that’s fundamentally the question of why we will do something is what will be the impact? Can we make it better? Can we make work easier? Can we have a greater reach?

Can we foster understanding and uptake so that we get the results that we want in terms of the vision and the action for our employees and for our customers and for our clients? I think that’s where I was gonna go as well. Martha, I impact was the word that, that came up for me. And shell, I think you were asking, how do we somewhat make the case, right?

For either adopting something or pursuing a certain path from a [00:37:00] tech perspective. Again, comes back to what Russell said earlier about data, right? If you can bring the data in the room, I think you make a much more compelling case. But that has to be focused on the kind of impact that you are gonna have for the organization, for the communication process that you are, that this technology is looking to facilitate.

Neil, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pick on you for a minute because of everybody on the panel right now, you’re the one who’s not working in a communication role. You work for the DEI function. How did you make that transition because you were in. A communication role. I was so I was at my last firm at the time.

And it was a setup where really diversity, equity, inclusion wasn’t anyone’s primary focus in the organization. We I don’t think we were alone in that. There are many organizations that were quite progressive on this, but certainly more I would say that we’re in the sit, same situation that we were.

So it was a little bit side of desk for [00:38:00] me. But we knew it mattered and we knew it was important. And there were a group of us, it was led initially by one of the partners and HR directors. But she assembled a small team really of people who were willing to support.

And essentially I was really the communication business partner, if you will, to really get DEI off the ground when that partner left the firm. I was asked to just keep things going and progressively took on more and more. It, I do think going into DEI from a communication background is a really it’s an easier transition, I think than for many for a number of reasons.

I think a lot of the things that we’ve talked about before I was able to advocate for the people in the organization, the groups that, that needed to be visible. And that, I was able to use the communication skills to, to really keep the story central to all of the work.

But I was also very used to. Asking for the [00:39:00] organization to pay attention to this. I’d spent years and years trying to make the case for great communication in an organization for whether that was internal or external. And really the, it feels a little bit distant now ’cause it feels like we, we have this seat at the table as communication professionals, but for a long time we didn’t.

And we were used to making that case. And so going into DEI, which was then also making its own case, I was very at ease with that. And I wasn’t discouraged by the fact that we were trying to push on the door. That wasn’t all the way open yet. And so that really stood me in good stead, I think to drive this work.

And as I said before, just really understanding where this fits in, fit into the business, how it advanced the the aims of the business and how it improved life overall for not just the underrepresented groups, but for everybody. ’cause ultimately, DEI work is about improving the whole organization.

I think coming from a comms background really set me up for that. I would imagine that moving to DEI from [00:40:00] communications is easier than, say, moving to accounts payable. I would argue the same. But that does lead to a question. Leaders need an overview of the entire organization, and there are parts where we probably dip our fingers a little less.

How important is it for us to understand the functions of those departments as we pursue more leadership roles? I think this goes back to what we were saying earlier about, I think it was Neil that said it, that you when you’re in communications, you have the role, you have the run of the whole organization.

And I think that means that you can use that to your advantage to go out and understand what all those different roles are. If you’re in an organization that’s a manufacturing organization, so what does the manufacturing pipeline look like? What do this, what do the customers look like? What do the suppliers look like?

If you if you’re in a different type of organization, say an accountancy firm or one of the one of the major consulting organizations. How does their business work? And in order to do that, go through every function, one of the things that we have a [00:41:00] license to do is basically to, to ask questions on the guise of it’s in communications, therefore I need to know about it.

But in doing so, of course, but yeah and showing an interest and also gaining, gaining the knowledge of that you are gaining the respect of the organization and therefore the credibility in order to achieve what you then want to achieve either in communications or in a wider leadership role.

If through the work that we do, we build. A great bank of trust with our stakeholders, both internal and external. It also builds trust in the communication function that, that produced that result. One of the challenges I’m dealing with this right now in my organization, is leadership visibility.

Trust is an important issue in the organization. It’s addressed very overtly at the leadership levels, and yet the leaders are not [00:42:00] ridiculously visible to the employee population. So I guess I’ll expand my question beyond my own challenge, both internal and external. How do we support visibility to build trust in leadership knowing that eventually that trust is gonna come back to us?

I think we lead by example there, right? And I certainly did this when, with the DEI role. I think because I guess naturally I felt the urge and also the the need to be very prominent and communicate on this topic. Therefore the whole organization then became very comfortable about having the necessary conversation.

It’s very specific to my example, but I guess just trying to illustrate that, if the communication function can set the tone and show what happens when you create the kind of communication that the organization is looking for and certainly needs from its leaders.

Then I think that just lays the ground for that. I guess the [00:43:00] challenge is when you’ve got a leader or a leadership team that either doesn’t see the value in communication or is scared of communication or for some reason is not engaging on that level because that’s a really hard, that’s a really hard sell.

But I think again you need to go back to the data. You need to show how this is going to transform the organization for the better. And I’m sure that my colleagues on the panel have got great examples of how they’ve worked with leaders in, in that way. I think this is one which brings together a lot of the things that we’ve spoken about in terms of understanding the business, in terms of having credibility yourself in terms of the ability to create relationships and the degree of counsel that you are able to affect with your senior leadership.

You don’t have to sit on the board for that, but you do need to have the trust and be a confident, principally to the CEO, but also, or the managing director or whatever, but also to others and to understand what their barrier is, what their blocker is in [00:44:00] becoming more visible. In some cases it may be that they are desperately shy.

In other cases it may be that they just don’t understand the value of visibility particularly if they’ve grown up in a different culture as the culture of the organization. But understanding where people’s confidence and competence. Come together in a way that you can make a difference as a coach and as a confidant and working on one by one.

So if you worked you wouldn’t take your most difficult case to start with. You take a case that was moderately difficult but one that you could overcome and then use that as an example to show, if Bogans over there is able to do it, maybe you’d be able to do it as well. But not to underestimate these things take a lot of time and a lot of resource and effort, but it is effort that we should be prepared to put in order to achieve that result.

And, Russell, I was thinking about that and Neil, when you mentioned about your trajectory and your career path, that this is a [00:45:00] long game in many cases, right? This is an investment both from a career perspective, but then also but then also in terms of our the trust that we build within organizations and within our communities that we can say help, let me help you understand your audience and and reach them better and have a better impact.

But when we show that as the IBC model calls us to do with evidence and with data as an outcome, not just an output when we show that over short, medium, and long term are the most. Have the most profound impact. Then we really begin to earn trust. Trust as professionals. I think it’s also true, Jennifer, that when we talk about that trust and earning it there’s an accessibility question.

And by accessibility I mean in terms of who has access to senior leadership and then who has access in terms [00:46:00] of the information that’s available at the front line. And I was struck at an IBC conference. There was a presenter who said, every time they would hear a leader say, people can come to me, my door’s always open.

He, said the flip side to that is that they have a door that can be closed and how that can send a signal that who controls the access. And clearly there are decisions that need to be made and things that need to happen and conversations and so on at different levels. But when we look at visibility and accessibility to share concerns or to share ideas and potential innovations how we build trust comes to the accessibility.

Do we make it possible for people to share what they know and also for them to listen to what people have to say? So I, when I think about the questions of trust, I do often think about that simple image of who has a door and who [00:47:00] doesn’t change. Communication is easier when you have, I. Trust as a foundation.

Change is also a discipline that thrusts a lot of communicators into leadership roles who may not have had one before. I think Covid was an example of that, particularly with internal communicators suddenly being relied on much more heavily by leadership than previously in a lot of instances.

How can we leverage change communication to build our own leadership chops and grease the wheels toward leading bigger parts of the organization?

I see us as two halves of a whole in many ways or parts to the circle. Change communication has just so many principles that are similar to what we practice in, in, in communications per se. And again, really change comes into into our measurable outcomes, right? What are, what [00:48:00] Im, what action or reaction are we looking for from any audience on any topic at any time?

And how do we know that we got there? And those are really the elements of change, communication, albeit phrased in different ways with many of the professionals I’ve worked with. But it’s a profound partnership and opportunity. And as you said, shell many I have many colleagues who’ve moved from communications into related fields, hr, coaching and change Included in that.

This is good. Although sometimes I’ve lost counter the number of times that somebody who didn’t have a job at the right time that wasn’t a communications practitioner ended up leading change and not really knowing what on earth they were doing. And it came apart across it. It was the necessity for me or somebody in my team or whatever to then step in and say, actually that’s not what you do.

And too many times I’ve just seen an assumption that anybody that doesn’t really [00:49:00] understand change can actually do change. And we have to be able to step in there when necessary and act. We have a couple of comments. Brian Kilgore says, get out of your cubicle and visit. Departments, stores, factories and suppliers could not agree more.

I get some of my best insights when I get out of the office and out onto a construction project site where the actual work is being done. But Miko has a question specifically for you, Russell. How might a Mid-Career Communicator Act is their communic their corporation’s conscience without harming their career progress?

They’re vulnerable, less secure, financially less able to rock the boat. I think you have to have the courage of your convictions, really. And I think this is just so important generally in communications. I think if you think that something needs doing, or something needs pointing out or is wrong, if you’re a mid-career communications practitioner and you’ve been doing what you should be doing for, for good, you should have a level of credibility that allows you to challenge.

I think if you are [00:50:00] not in a position where you feel at that stage in your career that you can challenge the organization to some degree, there’s probably something gone wrong. I think I, I feel quite strongly about this as you can see. And I think it’s something that we as practitioners have a a duty which we owe to our organizations.

Often when the organizations itself, the organization itself cannot see the need that we can see looking, if you like, from a more a more global perspective on the organization rather than those people who have got their head down in the organization all the time. Vocabulary that I’ve used before is that I wouldn’t be doing my job properly if I said yes to this or no to this.

It and I think Russell’s absolutely right it, it’s in the description of one’s contribution to the organization and reminding people that actually, yeah, this is part of what I do. I completely relate to the comment shared because I imagine that there are a number of people doing the work that we do [00:51:00] who have had to pause because of, they’ve weighed up the potential impact on them personally.

But I, as I, I’ve done it, I’ve, I was mid-career and I said no to something or doing something because it was not the right ethical thing to be doing. And I said, look I cannot be part of this. And ultimately the organization I was with at the time went in a different direction.

And it’s on all of us in our profession to do that. Otherwise we, I think we can all understand the impact of that collectively. One, one of the thing I would say is that at the time I mean I’ve been an IBC member a very long time. But there I was able to also lean on the code of ethics and say, actually, I’ve made a commitment to a code of professional practice.

Not necessarily everybody’s gonna need that to lean on, but I found that very helpful to be able to say, look I’m a professional. I have a code. This does, this is not consistent with that code. I’m glad you mentioned that Neil, because [00:52:00] it also comes back to organizational values.

And so interestingly in that list of job descriptions, shell that you provided communications and ethics officer didn’t seem to be part of the job title in top ranking. If it exists. Another way for organizations, I think, because you can have multiple people with multiple codes of practice, hospital health based organizations as an example.

But if you can go to your code of ethics and you can go to the organization values and say, if we do this, how are we living up to our values as an organization? How are we maintaining or keeping or upholding our promise to our stakeholders, customers, clients, our employees? To me that’s a fundamental question that we need to look at.

And that is all the time we have. We are at the top of the hour. I just have a couple seconds to let everyone know. That episode one 12 of Circle of Fellows is scheduled for 4:00 PM Eastern on Thursday, January 16th. We’ll be [00:53:00] talking about sparking creativity. Our coordinator of these events Anna Willie is working on assembling that panel, but so far Zoa Artis and Andrea Greenhouse will be joining me for that one.

So I hope to see everybody there. Thank you so much to the panel today. This has been great, and we’ll see you all next month.

The post Circle of Fellows #111: Professional Communication as a Leadership Foundation appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.