"I had a really interesting conversation with a publisher for my first book, and the publisher asked me, 'How are you going to get out of the story?' And I think that's the thing that people often go into it having a  great idea of two thirds of a really good story, how it goes up through the climactic action of your narrative. But then there can be this like long trail off where people can't bring themselves to wrap the story up, or not put as much thought into exactly how the story ends," says Catherine Grace Katz, author of Shadow Before the Flame.

It’s Catherine Grace Katz (@catherinegracekatz on IG)! Who first appeared on the show back on Ep. 222 for her acclaimed book Daughters of Yalta and she’s back in the saddle again for Shadow Before the Flame: The Hindenburg Disaster and the Prelude to War. It’s published by Viking.

Two things are ubiquitous about the Hindenburg: It blew up and the journalist painting the audio picture of the disaster said, “Oh, the humanity.” Beyond that, what else is there? Turns out, um, quite a f------ lot, man. I didn’t know there were survivors. I didn’t know it was a passenger vessel. Shadow will sit right beside the great historical yarns spun by the likes of Laura Hillenbrand, Erik Larson, and Hampton Sides. I’m always amazed how writers make work of this nature suspenseful when you know the outcome. Like, you know the Hindenburg blows up. You know Trudy Ederle swims the English Channel. And yet, when it happens, you’re rewarded more than you could have imagined.

What a fun time we had. Can’t believe it’s been six years since she was on the show. Oct. 2, 2020. Wild. Who’d have thought that she’s such a fiery New York Yankees fan? Hmmm … In this episode we talk about:

• The origin story of this book
• The post-book funk
• Step 1 of writing this book proposal
• Getting out of the story
• World building
• Capturing the little nuggets
• How she’s more rooted in feel
• The murder wall
• Cutting yourself off from the research
• The tech of zeppelins
• Why they couldn’t use helium
• The echoes of history
• Not writing the present into the book
• The one thing she’s totally inflexible about
• The biggest change between book one and book two
• And her hottest of hot takes

Pair this episode with Ep. 132 with Laura Hillenbrand, Ep. 473 with Hampton Sides, and Ep. 368 with Tyler Hooper.

"Writing is such a lonely job, and I feel bad for people who don't have a crew. I think you really have to have a crew. I had a college crew my first couple years at ESPN. There was a bunch of us who were young writers and very ambitious. That was a crew. And then we have our group now of people who are on various text threads, you need a band to always know where your head is at any given time, so they can help you tap into those things when you're doing your work," says Seth Wickersham, author of three books, including his anthology of his best ESPN work Be On That Hill.

Today we welcome back Seth Wickersham, his third trip to the podcast. He has achieved anthology status. His best work over 26 years at ESPN is in 480 tidy pages titled Be On That Hill: Stories from the Summits of Sport, with a forward by his buddy and colleague and master in his own right, Wright Thompson. It’s published by Hyperion Avenue.

I should add right off the top that I should have in the coming week or two a Nieman Storyboard annotation of Seth’s mammoth profile on Sean Payton. It’s a 15,000-word feature that is a stunning piece of work. In any case, pay attention to this space for news on that.

But, yes, Seth is the author It’s Better to Be Feared and American Kings and let me be the one to tell you that he is one of the good ones, just a great person on top of being a tremendous writer and reporter. I think that comes across in how he speaks, his generosity of spirit and willingness to share his vast experience with you. I mean, take these blurbs for instance: from Jonthan Eig: "Wickersham stands with Plimpton and Halberstam among the finest sports chroniclers." And Peter King: "Wickersham’s terrific prose and storytelling are buttressed by his tireless and insightful reporting.”

Damn.

What a treat, what a ride you’re in for. Seth’s work can be found at espn.com and you can visit his website sethwickersham.com and follow him on IG @seth.wickersham. In this episode, we talk about:

• Getting beyond access porn for his Payton profile
• Having an idea of where you want to end a story
• The messy creative process
• Each time you’re starting over
• Shades of grayness
• Not being dissuaded by lack of access
• Lucky that people were invested in his success
• Breaking through creative plateaus
• The benefit of being a young writer
• Everything in a story is a reflection of you
• Needing a crew
• How your writing voice can adapt
• And the notes he has taped to his computer

You might want to pair this episode with Pamela Colloff, Tony Rehagen and Justin Heckert.

"There are a lot of stories that I come across that almost work or that don't quite work. And early in my career, I think I'd try and chase stories or force them to fit or force them to be a story when they don't actually work as a story," says Matthew Wolfe, author of the book Fires in the Night and the Atavist story "The Bleeding Hearts."

Today we welcome back Matthew Wolfe for the third time in about a year. Why, you ask? Well, his first appearance was Ep. 482 for his Atavist story “The Talented Mr. Bruseaux,” then, just a few weeks ago he was on for Ep. 536 to talk about his first book Fires in the Night. And now he’s got another Atavist story.

Wild, right? This is the way.

Matt’s story is titled The Bleeding Hearts: An ex-cop pulled off the largest armed robbery in Austria’s history, with his friend’s mistress as his accomplice. But he wasn’t trying to get rich. He wanted to be a real-life Robin Hood.

Now, we’ll be chatting with Jonah Ogles soon and I didn’t bring this up with him, and I will down the road, but listen to the deck again. If you want to sell a pitch to the Atavist, can you sum it up in one sentence like that? I will talk to them about that in the next one and how that distillation might help your pitches out either for the Atavist or any other publication.

Matthew has written for the Atavist on 3 separate occasions, and he’s also the author of Fires in the Night about the Earth Liberation Front. His work has appeared in the New York Times Magazine, Harper’s, The Atlantic, and National Geographic

In this conversation, we talk about:

• His love of The Baffler, Harper’s, and the New Yorker
• Where his path and ambitions lie
• Balancing fun, meaning, and value in a story
• The almost-working stories that don’t
• Stories that sit in the notebook for years
• Periods of spring cleaning
• Missing the sprawl of book writing
• And when a reporter can add commentary to a story

"Sometimes you swing and a miss on a story, or you get scooped by someone, and I think there's a constant feeling of like you're only as good as your last story, as the last thing you published, and it's hard to shake that," says Joshua Robinson, co-author of The Playbook: The Hidden Forces Shaping Winners and Losers in the Modern NFL (Mariner Books).

Joshua Robinson is here. Now, it was SUPPOSED to be a two-headed monster with Jonathan Clegg but SOMEBODY got pulled into an urgent news situation at the Wall Street Journal and had to conveniently skip thus putting ALL the pressure on Joshua Robinson to shoulder the burden that is a conversation with me. JR and JC are the co-authors of four books in nine years.

Four books in nine years.

Their latest is The Playbook: The Hidden Forces Shaping Winners and Losers in the Modern NFL. It’s published by Mariner Books and edited by Matt Harper, who made The Front Runner as good as it is.

Joshua heroically stepped in and did the work of two people. He’s the sports editor for the Wall Street Journal and has covered Formula 1, European football, the World Cup, the Tour de France, etc. He and Jonathan are the authors of The Club, The Formula, and Messi vs. Ronaldo. The Club and The Formula are rated 4.6 on the place that shall not be named out of more than 1,800 ratings. That’s amazing.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Translating super niche sports for a reader
• The co-author shared Google Doc
• Amusing themselves
• The Big Pages Stage
• How they only write two big drafts, what?
• Marrying the big idea to characters
• Drive the bus
• Understanding time value of money in the NFL
• And how you’re only as good as last story

This episode will pair well with Episode 199 with Keith Law, and Ep. 540 with Mitch Weiss and Holbrook Mohr.

Instagram: @creativenonfictionpodcast

Substack: welcometopitchclub.substack.com

"I think it's a great point with writing. You know early on you realize like putting pen to paper or starting to type early on was a massive achievement. There were huge gains, and now you're still grinding to figure out like 'I don't know how to end this chapter. How do I not know how to end a chapter? I've been writing for 20 years. What's wrong with me?' And you realize like this is the gig. This is part of the fun, though. It's also part of the grind, which is why if you asked a runner their their most fun runs, they're usually their hardest runs, and it's the same thing with any other passion," says Coach Chris Bennett, author of This is About Running. This is Not About Running.

It’s Coach Chris Bennett! He is the Nike Running Global Head Coach and now he’s the author of This is About Running. This is Not About Running.: Lessons for Between and Beyond the Start and Finish Line. It’s published by Dey St.

If you’re looking for workouts and training plans and pace charts and Zone 2 up the wazoo, this is NOT the book for you. But if you’re looking for a 220-page metaphor for being a better writer, a better person, and yes, maybe even a better runner, then you’re going to love this book. I read it twice. The chapters are, by and large, lean and range from confidence to doubt to hope and play and regrets. Maybe this podcast is about writing and not about writing.

A little more about Coach Bennett, who is something of a real-life Ted Lasso. Prior to working with Nike, he was a high school history teacher who helped coach one of the most successful running programs in the U.S. He attended the Univ. of North Carolina where he captained the XC and Track teams. After college, he spent five years on the Olympic Development Nike Farm Team out of Palo Alto, CA. He used to live in Oregon, but moved back to his native New Jersey.

In this episode, we cover a lot of ground including:

• Why longform content is not dead
• How he went from working in finance to Nike
• How he cultivated his coaching philosophy
• Confidence vs. Arrogance
• Vulnerability
• Reckoning with and the fear of success
• The power of just focusing on yourself
• Self-sabotage
• And how running helped his writing

I’d pair this episode Ep. 419 with Maggie Gigandet and her Atavist story about an ultrarunning couple and Ep. 525 with Mary Cain and her memoir of abuse at Nike called This is Not About Running.

"Our our first job, job one, for anybody writing a book, for anybody writing a story of any kind, any length, is to get the reader to that last word. If you don't do that, it doesn't matter what pretty words you drop in the middle of the story. Doesn't matter how brilliantly conceived it is. The story has failed because you have failed to get the reader to the end," says Earl Swift, author of Up on Cove Mountain.

It’s Earl Swift with his tenth book. He’s the New York Times bestselling author of Chesapeake Requiem, and he makes his fourth trip to the podcast to talk about Up on Cove Mountain: Adventure, Tragedy, and a Quest for Meaning on the Appalachian Trail. It’s published by Mariner Books, and what a book it is as it recounts Earl’s first hiking of the AT in 1990 and the happenstance, devoid-of-reason tragedy that befell two fellow southbound hikers in Molly LaRue and Geoff Hood. In that quest for meaning, Earl, now in his 60s, hikes the trail again to ponder the meaning of reason, luck, chance, and the enduring allure of the trail.

What a joy to welcome Earl back to the show. This was a toe-tappin’ good time. The toes were tapping. We start the conversation with:

• How to handle a book advance
• What drove Earl to return to the AT
• How Flip flopping the trail reflected the structure
• Making the AT chronicle feel fresh
• Trail angels
• Narrative wormholes
• The people he relies on for story help
• Luck
• How hiking the AT is like reading and writing
• Hiking your hike
• How he kept track of things on the trail
• Proportionality
• Getting the reader to the last word
• And how nonfiction is a construct

You can learn more about Earl at earlswift.com and follow him on IG @earl.swift. 

"I applaud anyone out there who's done the book circuit and trying to reach readers, because I'm not in this to make a lot of money, not at all. I just want people to read the story. I kind of felt like I owed it to the book to do my end of this effort. That's kind of fueled me to keep going too," says Shanda McManus, MD, author of Brother Epistles: A Sister's Memoir.

Today we have Shanda McManus. I’m sorry, Dr. Shanda McManus, whose debut book is a memoir titled Brother Epistles. It is a memoir written in letters to her brother Monir, who was murdered in 1992 in a drive-by shooting in Philadelphia. Monir was an Army veteran and when he was out of the army, he was involved in the drug trade and got caught up in a turf dispute. In Shanda’s telling, we learn so much about Monir and you feel the love and the grief nearly 25 years after his death. It’s a wonderful book and you’re going to hear quite a bit about it shortly.

So Shanda, this was nice, this was fun. You’re really going to dig it. She’s an assistant professor of family medicine at Hackensack Meridian School of Medicine. Brother Epistles, published by Split Lip Press is her first book and it received a starred notice from Kirkus Reviews. Shanda’s writing has appeared in Bellevue Literary Review, Intima: A Journal of Narrative Medicine, among other places. She’s got other myriad accomplishments that you can read about at shandamcmanus.com and follow her on Instagram @shandmdwrites.

In this episode we talk about:

• How she thinks about promotion
• What we owe the book
• The apprehension of working with an editor
• The lawn sign that changed her life
• Post-It notes
• Integrating grief
• Finding compassion for her younger self
• How the story you tell leads you to the form
• The guilt of getting out
• Food journeys
• How place informed her writing
• How she shaped the book
• Touching the work every day
• And the power of reading aloud

Parting shot on some major but minor changes to the podcast, but for now, it’s high time we queue Shanda

"You have to remember to slow things down. In this world where there's this fast-paced news cycle, and everybody wants to get it out first, this is a different genre, so to speak. You have to slow down. You have to build that trust. You can't expect to get these details on the first interview. More importantly, you have to show you care," says Mitch Weiss, a Pulitzer Prize-winner and co-author of Toxic Lies for The Atavist.

"When it comes to the writing, it helps that Mitch and I have similar worldviews and we have a similar voice to our writing, so it doesn't look choppy to readers. It's easy for him to take a chapter and I'll take another chapter, and we can make it flow together," says Holbrook Mohr, a Pulitzer finalist and co-author of Toxic Lies for The Atavist.

Mitch and Holbrook’s story is Toxic Lies: For Decades, workers at the nuclear facility in Kentucky were exposed to dangerous levels of radiation. Management assured them nothing was wrong. Then four friends risked everything to reveal the truth.

It’s a whistle-blower narrative and while the story dates back decades, you can feel the weight of the impact of industry encroaching on rural communities – i’m speaking specifically of data centers today – and what catastrophe and oversight will workers be subjected to next? How will they be exploited in the name of shareholders?

To Holbrook and Mitch’s credit, they have very little by way of an internet toehold, Holbrook is on Twitter @holbrookmohr and Mitch is @mitchsweiss on IG and Twitter, but I’ll give them a greater intro when we reach their part of the podcast: spoiler alert, there are Pulitzer Prizes involved.

Holbrook and Mitch are award-winning journalists with the Associated Press. They have reported together on a culture of abuse in the U.S. gymnastics program, the use of “less lethal” force by police, and the dangers of medical devices known as spinal-cord stimulators. They are the authors of the book Broken Faith: Inside of One of America’s Most Dangerous Cults. Mitch won the Pulitzer Prize and Holbrook is a Pulitzer finalist. They have been working together as a tandem since 2009, lots of work for the AP, and now independently as they navigate the choppy waters of freelance investigative journalism.

In this conversation we talk about:

• Collaboration and trust
• The death of the dad book
• Stress testing a story as a magazine story before a book
• Adapting and being nimble
• Keeping interviews short
• Developing trust with sources over time
• Slowing things down
• Hearing how sentences sound
• And how they decompress after reporting on intense material

So let’s waste no more time.

"We probably have some sense of what narrative is. So when your brain starts turning into the little movie camera because this is a juicy scene, then it's like, well, what would I want to show? What what would I want to know here?" says Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, author of Parks and Rec: The Underdog TV Show That Lit'rally Inspired a Vision for a Better America.

Dude, we have Jennifer Keishin Armstrong here today. What brings her to the CNF Pod-o-Verse is her latest book, her ninth, titled Parks and Rec: The Underdog TV Show That Lit-rally Inspired a Vision for a Better America. It’s published by Dutton with a forward by Nick Offerman. Jennifer also is the best selling author of Seinfeldia, and we talk about that as well, how timing is everything and there are so many things out of our control … She can be found @jmkarmstrong on IG and jenniferkamrstrong.com.

OK, so Jennifer’s Parks book came out earlier this year and it’s a wonderful, breezy read about one of my all-time favorite TV shows, a show that is deeply important to me. We watch it all the time. We own the DVDs so we actually OWN it, not beholden to the whims of streaming platforms who can deplatform shows at the click of a mouse, presumably. Jennifer’s book takes you behind the scenes with actors, writers, producers and shares never before told anecdotes and insights as to why this show has such staying power despite nearly being cancelled after every season. So, yes, we talk about Parks, but we mainly talk about:

• Dictionaries
• When your brain turns into a movie camera
• Jennifer’s “practice book” she never talks about
• Her guidelines for pursuing a book
• How the dialogue around TV has changed in the last 25 years
• The ruthlessness of story craft
• How Parks got out from under the shadow of The Office
• Serendipity and non-meritocracy
• Living on the long tail
• Lessons from the Parks run
• And all the things out of our control

Instagram: @creativenonfictionpodcast

Substack: welcometopitchclub.substack.com

"My career is not a straight path; it's a lot of happenstance where I just sort of somehow get a job and then figure out how to do it once I'm there," says Rachel Hartigan, author of Lost: Amelia Earhart's Three Mysterious Deaths and One Extraordinary Life.

Today we have Rachel Hartigan, who, yes, is dignified and reputable. She’s the author of Lost: Amelia Earhart’s Three Mysterious Deaths and One Extraordinary Life. It’s published by Nat Geo.

We share an agent, so that was how her book got on my radar. If you’re a relative newb to the Amelia Earhart story, Rachel’s book is a riveting take on the three main theories of Earhart’s tragic death either by castaway, captive, or having sunk at sea in her beautiful Lockheed Electra. Rachel weaves together all these theories with a lean, propulsive biography of a woman far ahead of her time.

She’s written about everything from the genetics of persimmon trees to the long road to women’s suffrage for National Geographic. She is the former editor of the Washington Post's Book World and she has also covered education and culture for U.S News & World Report. You can learn more about her at rachelhartiganauthor.com. Had a lot of fun with this as we talk about:

• Happenstance
• Hard-earned experience
• Breaking down David Grann’s The Lost City of Z
• Modeling a text
• Focusing on clarity
• Being in partnership with the reader
• Being a minimalist interviewer
• Saying yes to things
• Finding something new to say about Earhart
• Why Earhart is still appealing to this day
• Cave Day
• And learning how to sell your story as if you’re telling it at a cocktail party (this echoes Alex Ronan’s quip)

Pair this episode with David Grann's two appearances, Nick Davidson's appearances, as well Cassidy Randall's appearances.

"I feel like before I have the confidence to write in the way that I want to write, where I really own the material, I have to spend so much time with people. I will say at the outset, once I walk someone through what it's going to involve after they say yes to talking to me, I'll say I'm going to be around a lot and you're going to get sick of me," says Pamela Colloff, author of Catch the Devil.

Today’s guest, I mean, wow, from the bottom of the diaphragm up, wow. It’s Pamela Colloff. You know her from her National Magazine Award winning work for Texas Monthly and ProPublica/The New York Times Magazine. She’s THE premier investigative reporter in the country and she’s now the author of Catch the Devil: A True Story of Murder, Deception, and Injustice on the Gulf Coast. It’s published by Knopf.

This book upends what you think a true crime story is about where the true villain isn’t a person at all. It chronicles, among others, Paul Skalnik, a jailhouse snitch, whose non-credible testimony places numerous men on death row, Jim Dailey, in particular, and Pamela takes us through this riveting narrative and punishing commentary on capital punishment and why Florida seems hellbent on being No. 1 in executions.

Here’s just a slice of what Pam is about: She is a two-time National Magazine Award winner, once for reporting and once for feature writing. Her work has been adapted for narrative and documentary films including Tower, which was short-listed in 2016 for an Oscar. Her work has been anthologized in Best American Magazine Writing, Best American Crime Reporting, and Next Wave: America’s New Generation of Great Literary Journalists. She joined ProPublica/The New York Times Magazine in 2017 after many years at Texas Monthly. Listen, I could go on. You get the gist.

In this episode, we talk about:

• What drew her to Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson
• Speaking with Tom Junod
• The Boys Club of longform writing
• Her start at Texas Monthly
• Being a journalism dork
• The elation and despair
• How every story is a Rubix cube
• The Skip Hollandsworth Method
• Owning the material
• Knowing when to quote and when not to
• Idea generation
• Writing is hard
• How magazine writing and book writing are different animals
• Why Catch the Devil is her now-or-never moment
• Beginnings are the worst
• Being more disciplined with a book vs. magazine writing
• Writing in this attention economy

Pair this episode with Ep. 255 with Maddy Crowell and Ep. 414 with John Rosengren, and many other Atavist true crimey pods, too many to mention here. I’d also chuck in Ep. 224 with Patrick Radden Keefe. He’ll be back on the show for the paperback run of London Calling.