David Yeager: 10 to 25

David Yeager is a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin and the cofounder of the Texas Behavioral Science and Policy Institute. He is best known for his research conducted with Carol Dweck, Angela Duckworth, and Greg Walton on short but powerful interventions that influence adolescent behaviors such as motivation, engagement, healthy eating, bullying, stress, mental health, and more. He is the author of 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

Older generations have been complaining about younger generations for all of recorded history. Today is no different, and I often hear how leaders are struggling with motivating their younger employees. In this conversation, David and I explore the most recent research and practice for what actually works.

Key Points

• Older generations have been complaining about younger generations for all of recorded history. Often, our complaints are the result of our own past experiences.
• Many leaders experience the mentor’s dilemma: being nice and putting up with poor performance, or being critical and demanding higher performance.
• Status and respect for a young person are as critical as food and sleep to a baby. When satisfied, they can open up much better motivation and behavior.
• The mentor mindset embraces both high standards and high support for the young person you wish to motivate. Because this is a mindset, you can absolutely get better at it.
• When giving feedback to a young person, acknowledge the high standard you are setting and also tell the young person that you believe they can meet that standard.
• Young people have often experienced a lot of “enforcing” behavior from parents, teachers, and coaches. They assume this in the workplace if you don’t make a point to say otherwise.

Resources Mentioned

• 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People by David Yeager (Amazon, Bookshop)*
• The Power of Mindset (Masterclass)

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Challenge Directly and Care Personally, with Kim Scott (episode 302)
• How to Reduce Drama With Kids, with Tina Payne Bryson (episode 310)
• How to Solve the Toughest Problems, with Wendy Smith (episode 612)

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In this episode, Dave shares the five things that he sees most commonly get in leaders’ ways:

1. Not asking for help.
2. Assuming knowledge drives behavior.
3. Setting the tactical bar too high.
4. Feeling worse before feeling better.
5. Not noticing any improvement.

Linda Hill: Genius at Scale

Linda Hill is the Wallace Brett Donham Professor of Business Administration and Faculty Chair of the Leadership Initiative at Harvard Business School. Globally recognized as a top leadership and innovation expert, Linda has been named by Thinkers50 as one of the world’s top five management thinkers. She is the co-author, along with Emily Tedards and Jason Wild, of Genius at Scale: How Great Leaders Drive Innovation (Amazon, Bookshop)*

We all want to think of ourselves as innovative, but it’s often not easy to know exactly what that means in practice. In this conversation, Linda and I explore what her research shows that leaders do to drive innovation successfully – and how each of us can get just a bit better.

Key Points

• Rather than coming up with a vision and asking people to follow it, innovation is about creating the culture and capabilities to create the future together.
• Innovation leadership shows up in three ways within organizations: the Architects, the Bridge Builders, and the Catalysts.
• Instead of setting the stage for themselves, innovative leaders set the stage for others.
• Often, we view horizontal relationships through the lens of organizational politics. The most effective innovation leaders view these relationships as leadership opportunities.
• Traditional team structures are a starting point, but not an ending point. Leaders at Mastercard, Pfizer, and Cleveland Clinic all brought in team members from both inside and outside the organization.
• Rather than thinking about a decision as final, it’s helpful for innovation leaders to frame it as a “working hypothesis.”

Resources Mentioned

• Genius at Scale: How Great Leaders Drive Innovation by Linda Hill, Emily Tedards, and Jason Wild (Amazon, Bookshop)*

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Build an Invincible Company, with Alex Osterwalder (episode 470)
• The Way Innovators Get Traction, with Tendayi Viki (episode 512)
• Doing Better Than Zero-Sum Thinking, with Renée Mauborgne (episode 641)

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Academy alum Marisol Bello of The Housing Narrative Lab joins Dave to share how she made the shift from command and control to serve and support.

Are you at an inflection point? Applications to the Coaching for Leaders Academy are open until Friday, March 20th. Visit the Coaching for Leaders Academy page to apply.

Nir Eyal: Beyond Belief

Nir Eyal writes, consults, and teaches about the intersection of psychology, technology, and business. He is the author of two bestselling books, Hooked and Indistractable, selling more than a million copies and translated in over 30 languages. He is the author of the new book, Beyond Belief: The Science-Backed Way to Stop Limiting Yourself and Achieve Breakthrough Results (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

Most of us recognize that a huge part of what motivates us – or not – is our own thinking. In this conversation, Nir and I explore where our beliefs get in the way and how we can align them just a bit to help us move forward.

Key Points

• A sentence starting with “I am…” can be among the most dangerous in any language. Often, our beliefs limit us.
• Belief is the foundation of the motivation triangle that includes benefit and behavior. Yet, we often overlook beliefs.
• Curt Richter’s study of rats in the 1950s shows how an animal’s belief system can massively influence its behavior.
• The real question isn’t “Is this belief true?” but rather, “Does this belief serve me?”
• You can choose beliefs based on usefulness, not certainty.
• Difficulty may mean we are not cut out for something, but it might also be evidence of growth. Too often, we quit too soon.
• Progress comes from consistent action, not perfect plans.

Resources Mentioned

• Beyond Belief: The Science-Backed Way to Stop Limiting Yourself and Achieve Breakthrough Results (Amazon, Bookshop)* by Nir Eyal.

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Win the Long Game When the Short-Term Seems Bleak, with Dorie Clark (episode 550)
• How to Quit Bad Stuff Faster, with Annie Duke (episode 607)
• How to Better Manage Your Emotions, with Ethan Kross (episode 719)

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Academy alum Bill Mayo joins Dave to share how he improved his listening skills — both at work and at home.

Applications to the Coaching for Leaders Academy are open until Friday, March 20th. Visit the Coaching for Leaders Academy page to apply.

Rebecca Hinds: Your Best Meeting Ever

Rebecca Hinds is a leading expert on organizational behavior and the future of work. She founded and led the Work Innovation Lab at Asana and the Work AI Institute at Glean, where she partners with leading experts to help organizations transform their work with AI. She is the author of Your Best Meeting Ever: 7 Principles for Designing Meetings That Get Things Done (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

Considering the amount of time we all spend in meetings, it’s odd that most organizations do so little to measure meeting results. If that’s sounding familiar, this conversation between Rebecca and me will show you exactly how to get started.

Key Points

• Metrics that only measure the costs of meetings (dollars and time) can be useful, but rarely capture the full picture.
• Use Return on Time Invested (ROTI) anonymously to survey attendees to determine if a meeting was a good use of time. Also ask, “What would it take for you to improve your rating by one point?”
• Survey sparingly to avoid survey fatigue. Bringing in a survey 10% of the time is a benchmark to start from.
• If the amount of time in meetings vastly exceeds 10 hours a week, there’s likely an opportunity to scale back or redefine the work before or after meetings to use time better.
• Equal speaking time in meetings is a key indicator of team performance. Be transparent with employees about any technology you use to capture data.
• Punctuality and attendance rate are indicators of how valued meetings are for people.

Resources Mentioned

• Your Best Meeting Ever: 7 Principles for Designing Meetings That Get Things Done by Rebecca Hinds (Amazon, Bookshop)*

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• How to Lead Meetings That Get Results, with Mamie Kanfer Stewart (episode 358)
• Moving Towards Meetings of Significance, with Seth Godin (episode 632)
• How to Lead Engaging Meetings, with Jess Britt (episode 721)

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Lily Zheng, Fixing Fairness

Lily Zheng is a sought-after speaker, strategist, and organizational consultant who specializes in hands-on systemic change to turn positive intentions into positive outcomes for workplaces and everyone in them. A dedicated changemaker and advocate, Lily has had their work published in the Harvard Business Review, New York Times, and NPR. They are the author of Fixing Fairness: 4 Tenets to Transform Diversity Backlash into Progress for All (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

When it comes to fairness in the workplace, our society is quick to zero in on what divides us. Yet, there is broad agreement across all demographics on many key principles. In this conversation, Lily and I explore how leaders can influence the system to better work for everyone.

Key Points

• Many of us assume that fewer people support the value of diversity than actually do. When asked, 82% of people support pro-diversity statements.
• The most popular/traditional approaches to fixing fairness in the workplace tend to be the least effective.
• Our tendency is to focus on the behavior of individuals, when in fact organizational systems have the most significant impact on fairness.
• When considering a fairness initiative or intervention, begin with the practice of understanding and storytelling, just like many change initiatives.
• Resist the temptation to check boxes with “quick fixes” such as simply bringing in a speaker or hosting a one-time event. This rarely helps in any sustainable way and sometimes worsens existing dynamics.
• If you have a seat at the leadership table, make the case for thoughtful design and involvement of stakeholders at all points in the process, just as many effective organizations do on any strategic change initiative.

Resources Mentioned

• Fixing Fairness: 4 Tenets to Transform Diversity Backlash into Progress for All by Lily Zheng (Amazon, Bookshop)*

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• Supporting Return to Work After Maternity Leave, with Danna Greenberg (episode 639)
• The Power of Unlearning Silence, with Elaine Lin Hering (episode 678)
• How to Lead a Meaningful Cultural Shift, with David Hutchens (episode 755)

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Phil Gilbert: Irresistible Change

Phil Gilbert is best known for leading IBM’s 21st-century transformation as their General Manager of Design. The transformation became the subject of a Harvard Business School case study, the documentary film The Loop, and feature articles in the New York Times and Fortune Magazine. He is the author of Irresistible Change: A Blueprint for Earning Buy-In and Breakout Success (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

We’ve all been through mandated change initiatives more times than we can count. But what if change wasn’t a mandate, but an offer – or even an invitation? In this conversation, Phil and I explore how to make change irresistible.

Key Points

• Change should be regarded as a high-value-add product.
• Don’t mandate change. Offer change.
• Your goal is sustained cultural adoption, not improving immediate competency.
• Start small, but cover all your bases on a reduced scale. Make a great cupcake instead of a mediocre wedding cake.
• People buy brands, not products. Branding change allows you to define the values and message that goes with it.

Resources Mentioned

• Irresistible Change: A Blueprint for Earning Buy-In and Breakout Success by Phil Gilbert (Amazon, Bookshop)*

Interview Notes

Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).

Related Episodes

• Engaging People Through Change, with Cassandra Worthy (episode 571)
• Where Senior Leaders Can Better Support Middle Managers, with Emily Field (episode 650)
• How to Lead Organizational Change, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 740)

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Charles Duhigg: Supercommunicators

Charles Duhigg is a Pulitzer Prize–winning investigative journalist and the author of The Power of Habit and Smarter Faster Better. He is a winner of the National Academies of Sciences, National Journalism, and George Polk awards. He writes for The New Yorker and other publications and is the author of Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection (Amazon, Bookshop)*.

A lot of us grew up in a world where most of our relationships started in person. That means many of us are beautifully equipped for a world that no longer exists. In this conversation, Charles and I discuss how to get better at connecting in a remote-first world.

Key Points

• When the telephone first became popular, people had to learn how to communicate with it. We’re at a similar inflection point with digital communication.
• We all have three kinds of conversations: (1) What’s this really about? (practical/decision-making), (2) How do we feel? (emotional), and (3) Who are we? (identity).
• Many of us tend to default to practical/decision-making conversations online and miss conversations about emotion and identity.
• Ask questions that invite an emotional or identity response. Instead of, “Where do you live?” consider a shift like, “What do you love about where you live?”
• Notice when people bring elements into a conversation that aren’t related to the topic. These clues, especially online, can point to entry points for emotional connection.
• Supercommunicators pay just a bit more attention to how people communicate than the rest of us. A slight shift can make a big difference.

Resources Mentioned

• Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection by Charles Duhigg (Amazon, Bookshop)*

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

• The Way to Get People Talking, with Andrew Warner (episode 560)
• How to Lead Engaging Meetings, with Jess Britt (episode 721)
• How to Show Up Authentically in Tough Situations, with Andrew Brodsky (episode 727)

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