Think about a hot loaf of bread fresh out of the oven.

There's a lot going on with that loaf.

On one level, it's a literal food that's been created through chemical processes. A delicious — your mouth might be watering right now — form of sustenance.

But there's also more to it than that. There's something about bread, the so-called staff of life, that's different from other foods and resonates on a deeper level. There's a reason bread has been a rich symbol throughout times and cultures and figures prominently in religious scriptures.

Today on the show, Peter Reinhart will take us on an exploration of the many facets of bread, from the spiritual to the scientific. Peter is a baker, educator, and the author of numerous books, including The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread. In the first half of our conversation, Peter unpacks the deeper, mystical meanings of bread by walking us through the twelve steps of how it's made. We then get into why sourdough is the future and final frontier of bread, and the technical secrets to mixing, fermenting, and baking a killer loaf.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Peter's books
• Peter's recipes for overnight fermented lean dough and more
• Peter's TED talk
• AoM Article: Bread Baking 101 for Beginners

Connect With Peter Reinhart

• Peter's Pizza Quest website

It’s not uncommon for former law enforcement officers and intelligence agents to write self-help books where they share how the lessons they learned in their professional careers can apply to people in any walk of life.

What is rare is for one of these officers-turned-authors to publicly prove they know what they’re talking about and that their tips work, as Derrick Levasseur did by winning the reality show Big Brother.

Derrick is a former undercover detective, current private investigator, and the author of The Undercover Edge: Find Your Hidden Strengths, Learn to Adapt, and Build the Confidence to Win Life’s Game. Today on the show, Derrick shares how he became an undercover police officer, what he learned from that job, how he applied those lessons on Big Brother, and how you can use similar techniques to influence others, know when someone is lying, and bounce back from adversity.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Derrick’s season of Big Brother
• Derrick’s podcasts
  • Crime Weekly
  • Detective Perspective 
• The Johari Window
• AoM Podcast #830: How to Read Minds and Detect Deception

Connect With Derrick Levasseur

• Derrick’s website
• Derrick on IG
• Derrick on YouTube

When it comes to weight management and all-around good metabolic health, we most often think about what to eat. But my guest would say that it's also crucial to think about when to eat,

Emily Manoogian is a chronobiologist and clinical researcher at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies. Today on the show, Emily shares how to create an optimal schedule for a healthy metabolism by aligning your eating schedule with your circadian rhythm. She explains when to start eating after waking, when to stop eating before bed, the importance of sticking to a set schedule, and what happens to your metabolism when you don't follow these timing guidelines. We also talk about how to best distribute your calorie intake throughout the day and how to eat to mitigate the metabolic problems that come with being a shift worker.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• The Salk Institute
• My Circadian Clock app
• AoM Podcast #1,016: Unlock Better Sleep and Health by Harnessing Your Circadian Rhythm

Connect with Emily Manoogian

• Emily on LinkedIn
• Emily on X

In 18th century America, this book was second in popularity only to the Bible.

It was a favorite of many thinkers and leaders throughout history, including Emerson, Napoleon, Machiavelli, Nietzsche, and even President Truman.

Yet, you probably haven't read it.

It's Plutarch's Parallel Lives.

If you're not familiar with Plutarch's Lives, you're in for a treat, as today's episode offers a great intro. My guest, Alex Petkas, found that even though he's a former classicist and professor, Plutarch's Lives is still a tough read, which is why he started a podcast, The Cost of Glory, to make it more accessible to people. He does the same thing on today's episode, sharing the background on Plutarch's set of biographies and its major themes. Alex explains why Plutarch thought that biography was a powerful way to transmit morals and how the Homeric virtue he had in mind differed from that of just having good, upstanding character. Alex then gives us a taste of Plutarch as we discuss the lives of two obscure Greek and Roman figures. We end our conversation with how to get started studying Plutarch yourself.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Cost of Glory website
• Alex's resource on how to read Plutarch's Lives, with links to the mentioned Penguin editions
• Alex's recommended episodes of the Cost of Glory podcast:
  • Pompey I: Kid Butcher
  • Crassus I: Richest Man in Rome
• AoM Article: An Intro to Envy
• AoM Article: Envy, Ressentiment, and the Inversion of Values
• AoM Podcast #949: Unpacking The Emotion No One Likes to Talk About
• Sulla
• Eumenes
• Sertorius
• Blood and Thunder: The Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West by Hampton Sides + AoM podcast episode about the book

Connect with Alex Petkas

• Alex on LinkedIn
• Alex on X
• Alex on IG

This episode starts off a little differently than others — with a short quiz, something called the Brief Sensation-Seeking Scale, which will tell you whether you're what psychologists call a high sensation-seeker or a low sensation-seeker. Read the following eight statements, and then pick a number from 1 to 5 that corresponds to your level of agreement, where 1 is "Not at all like me," 2 is "Not like me," 3 is "Unsure or both like and not like me," 4 is "Like me," and 5 is "Very much like me."

1. I would like to explore strange places.
2. I would like to take off on a trip with no pre-planned routes or timetables.
3. I get restless when I spend too much time alone.
4. I prefer friends who are excitingly unpredictable.
5. I like wild parties.
6. I would love to have new and exciting experiences, even if they are illegal.
7. I would like to try bungee jumping.
8. I would like to do frightening things.

Now add up all the numbers together. If you scored between 8 and 16, you are a low sensation-seeker. If you scored between 16 and 28, you're about average for sensation-seeking. If you scored over 28, you're a high sensation-seeker.

Today on the show, I unpack what these categories of personality mean with Dr. Kenneth Carter, a clinical psychologist, a professor, and the author of Buzz!: Inside the Minds of Thrill-Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. Ken explains how sensation-seeking exists on a spectrum between chill seekers, who like safety and calm routine, and thrill seekers, who enjoy chaos, risk, and novelty. He shares how there are actually four components to high sensation-seeking, and which two tend to get people in trouble. And we talk about whether being high or low sensation-seeking is a matter of nature or nurture, how high sensation-seekers fare in romantic relationships and what they should consider in choosing a career, and what the world's chill seekers can learn from its thrill seekers.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• 40-Question Sensation-Seeking Scale Test

Connect with Ken Carter

• Ken's website
• Ken on IG
• Ken on X
• Ken's faculty page

“Nothing takes the taste out of peanut butter quite like unrequited love,” Charlie Brown once said. Indeed, being spurned by one's crush, or, for that matter, by a friend or potential employer, not only ruins the taste of one's favorite sandwich spread, but causes great psychological distress and even physical pain.

Here to walk us through one of life's worst feelings is Mark Leary, a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Duke University, and the editor of Interpersonal Rejection. Today on the show, Mark unpacks the experience of social rejection, including why we're so sensitive to it and the emotions and behaviors it causes, which can be positive and prosocial or maladaptive and even violent. We discuss the role that is played by the sociometer, a concept Mark originated, in monitoring our social acceptance and rejection and what influences its sensitivity to fluctuations in your relational value. And Mark offers advice on how to remove some of the sting of rejection and civilly reject others.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Mark's previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #725 — The Curse of the Self
• Simpsons' episode where Lisa breaks Ralph's heart
• AoM Article: Honor in the American South

Connect With Mark Leary

• Mark's faculty page

Note: This is a rebroadcast.

Nietzsche's maxim, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger," isn't just a sound philosophical principle. It's also a certifiable physiological phenomenon; toxins and stressors that could be deadly in large doses, actually improve health and resilience in smaller, intermittent ones. The ironic thing, my guest points out, is that it's the fact that we're not getting enough of this sublethal stress these days that's really doing us in.

Paul Taylor is a former British Royal Navy Aircrew Officer, an exercise physiologist, nutritionist, and neuroscientist, and the author of Death by Comfort: How Modern Life is Killing Us and What We Can Do About It. Today on the show, Paul discusses the science of hormesis, how small doses of intermittent stress can make us more resistant to chronic stress, and why you need to embrace what Paul calls "discomfort harvesting." We talk about some now-familiar topics like fasting and cold and heat exposure with fresh inspiration as to how important they are to practice and how to do them effectively. We discuss how hot a sauna needs to be to get the benefits of heat exposure, Paul's suggestion for how to make an ice bath on the cheap, what may be the single best type of food to eat to improve your gut's microbiome, a form of fasting that's got anti-cancer benefits but is so accessible it won't even feel like fasting, what supplement to take to mitigate the effects of a bad night's sleep, and much more. We end our conversation with how to use what Paul calls a "ritual board" to stick with your healthy habits and resist the "soft underbelly" of modern life.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoMPodcast #708: Overcome the Comfort Crisis
• AoM article/video on the benefits of cold showers
• AoM Podcast #801: The Cold Water Swim Cure
• AoM Podcast #603: The Physical Keys to Human Resilience
• AoM Article: How Saunas Can Help Save Your Body, Mind, and Spirit
• AoM Article: How to Sauna — All the FAQs
• AoM Podcast #585: Inflammation, Saunas, and the New Science of Depression
• AoM Podcast #862: Heal the Body With Extended Fasting
• AoM Podcast #328: The Pros and Cons of Intermittent Fasting
• AoM Podcast #581: The Tiny Habits That Change Everything
• AoM Podcast #425: Action Over Feelings
• The NOVA Food Classification System
• Stanford study on the effect of fiber and fermented food on the microbiome
• Research on creatine as a neurotransmitter and creatine's effect on brain health (including impact when sleep deprived)

Connect With PaulTaylor

• Paul's website
• Paul on IG
• Paul on LinkedIn
• Paul's podcast
• Paul's mental fitness course for coaches and health professionals

In creating the Jack Reacher character, Lee Child launched a series of books that now boast 100 million copies in print and have been turned into movies and a popular Amazon streaming series.

Today on the show, I talk to Lee about what makes Reacher so compelling and much more. We first discuss how Lee didn't get started with writing until he was almost forty, and what prompted him to change careers. We then unpack the Reacher character, discussing the ancient, archetypal roots of this vigilante, drifter detective, what he has in common with the knight errant, and the enduring appeal of the lone wolf. We also talk about Lee's writing process, why midlife is the best time to write, and why, after writing more than two dozen Reacher novels, he's chosen to hand off the series to his brother and fellow writer, Andrew.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• The latest Reacher novel: In Too Deep
• The Reacher streaming series 
• Jack Reacher website

Money can't buy happiness. It sounds good as a bumper sticker platitude.

But the truth is, money can buy happiness. At least sometimes. In certain circumstances. If we view it and use it in the right ways.

Here to unpack the conditions under which money can buy happiness and facilitate our flourishing is Dr. Daniel Crosby, a psychologist and behavioral finance expert and the author of The Soul of Wealth: 50 Reflections on Money and Meaning. Today on the show, Daniel shares the minimum income level at which money buys happiness, at least in the sense of avoiding pain. We talk about how to purchase material things in a way that increases happiness, while avoiding materialism, and the value of using your money to buy health and freedom. And we discuss the importance of finding an overarching why that guides the way you allocate your money and doing a values audit to see if your purpose and spending habits are aligned.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Daniel's previous appearances on the AoM podcast:
  • Episode #222: The Laws of Wealth
  • Episode #511: Mastering the Psychology of Investing
• AoM Podcast #659: Do You Want to Be Rich or Wealthy? (And Why the Difference Matters)
• AoM Podcast #321: How to Think About Money
• "Experiences Won’t Make You Happier Than Possessions"
• Die with Zero by Bill Perkins

Connect With Daniel Crosby

• Daniel on X
• Daniel's podcast, Standard Deviations
• Daniel on LinkedIn

Are leaders born or made? Judging by the 50 billion dollar leadership development industry, the answer is definitely the latter. From schools to workplaces, everyone is seen as a potential leader and expected to become one by undergoing leadership training.

My guest questions the assumptions underlying this phenomenon, which he calls "the leadership industrial complex," and says that the cult of leadership, and its idea that everyone can and should become a leader, can create burnout and unhappiness.

Elias Aboujaoude is a Stanford professor of psychiatry and the author of A Leader's Destiny: Why Psychology, Personality, and Character Make All the Difference. Today on the show, Elias describes the state of the leadership industrial complex, the mathematical impossibility it forwards that everyone can be a leader and no one is a follower, and the primary presumption it makes that leadership can be taught. Elias argues that, in fact, a lot of what makes for good leadership is innate and potentially unchangeable. We discuss the implications of this fact, and why it's actually okay not to want to be a leader.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• AoM Podcast #838: Can Virtue Be Taught?
• AoM Article: Don’t Just Lead Well, Follow Well
• AoM Article: Are You a Strategist or an Operator? 

Connect With Elias Aboujaoude

• Elias' website
• Elias' Stanford profile page

When people think about living more fully and making better use of their time, they typically think of finding some new organizational system they can structure their lives with.

Oliver Burkeman says that what you really need instead are perspective shifts — small, sustainable changes in how you view and approach your day-to-day life. He provides those mindset shifts in his new book, Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts. And we talk about some of them today on the show, including why you should view life's tasks and problems like a river instead of a bucket, stop feeling guilt over your "productivity debt," make peace with your decisions by embracing an unconventional reading of the poem "The Road Not Taken," aim to do your habits "dailyish," be more welcoming of interruptions, and practice "scruffy hospitality."

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Oliver's previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #748 — Time Management for Mortals
• AoM Article: Autofocus — The Productivity System That Treats Your To-Do List Like a River
• AoM Podcast #956: Feeling Depressed and Discombobulated? Social Acceleration May Be to Blame
• Sunday Firesides: To-Dos, the Rent We Pay For Living
• AoM Podcast #962: The Case for Minding Your Own Business
• AoM Podcast #821: Routines Are Overrated
• AoM Article: Routines Not Working For You? Try a Daily Checklist
• Sunday Firesides: Life Is for Living
• Resonance: A Sociology of Our Relationship to the World by Hartmut Rosa
• "The Road Not Taken" by Robert Frost
• The Road Not Taken: Finding America in the Poem Everyone Loves and Almost Everyone Gets Wrong by David Orr
• "The Road Less Traveled" — great, short podcast on the alternate interpretation of Frost's poem

Connect With Oliver Burkeman

• Oliver's website