Jake Sullivan has sat across from Xi Jinping more times than almost any American official—from Xi's rise in 2013 to their last face-off in Beijing. What's it like negotiating with the world's most powerful dictator? Sullivan reveals Xi's ego, tactics, and how a relationship that started with cautious optimism turned into open hostility.

Guest: Jake Sullivan, Former U.S. National Security Adviser for President Biden and the host of The Long Game, a new podcast from Vox Media.

Book Recommendations:

The Party’s Interests Come First: The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping by Joseph Torigian. 

Apple in China by Patrick McGee. 

Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with ⁠Rowhome Productions⁠.

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China is outbuilding America's navy and beating us in hypersonic missiles. Xi has purged corrupt generals to create a military machine loyal only to him. Can China's forces actually win a war? We break down the PLA's transformation from paper tiger to potential superpower.

Guest: Zhou Bo, Retired Senior Colonel in the People’s Liberation Army (https://ciss.tsinghua.edu.cn/info/CFExperts/1212)

Book Recommendations:

Should The World Fear China by Zhou Bo

China’s Quest for Military Supremacy by Joel Wuthnow and Phillip Saunders

Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions.

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China's youth were supposed to lead the nation to glory. Instead, they're lying flat, embracing "garbage time," and quietly rebelling against a system that promised everything and delivered economic stagnation. In this episode of Face-Off - our first of Season 3 (!) - we get inside the psychology of China's disillusioned generation.

Guest: Chang Che, Chinese-American Writer (https://changnche.com/) 

Book Recommendations: 

Sparks: China’s Underground Historians and their Battle for the Future by Ian Johnson

Other Rivers: A Chinese Education by Peter Hessler

Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions.

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In our third season of Face-Off: The US vs China, we’ll explore some of the biggest issues dividing these global powers today: Trump and Xi Jinping, AI, China’s growing military might, and also… robots.

Season 3 of Face-Off: US vs China begins Tuesday, November 18th. Join us.

Face-Off is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions.

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THE GREAT WAGER Episode 5. The break-up: Richard Nixon’s great wager reverberates from the '70s to today

While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War.

This is the series finale: Episode 5.

All of a sudden, it’s less clear if Nixon’s wager is paying off. After years of collaboration and mutual economic benefit, relations between China and the U.S. are at a low point. What does the start of this important relationship reveal about its next chapter?

The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network.

Book Recommendations:

Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing.

Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip

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THE GREAT WAGER Episode 4. Shared secrets: How The U.S. and China worked together to spy on the Soviet Union

While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War.

This is Episode 4.

The relationship between China and the U.S. is off and running — and now the two countries are collaborating on secret, sensitive intelligence. This installment of The Great Wager includes exclusive information about how Chinese and American intelligence officials agreed to work together against their common rival of many years.

The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network.

Book Recommendations:

Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing.

Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip

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THE GREAT WAGER Episode 3. Grip and grin: When Nixon met Mao

While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War.

This is Episode 3.

The news of Nixon’s trip to China is public, and he’s getting credit for pulling off such a historic event. Now, he and his advisers have to work with the Chinese to forge a relationship between two very different countries.

The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network.

Book Recommendations:

Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing.

Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip

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THE GREAT WAGER Episode 2: Plots and private planes: How Henry Kissinger pulled off a secret trip to China

While we’re preparing season 3 of Face Off, we’re excited to present an encore presentation of The Great Wager, a five-part series about Richard Nixon’s top-secret plan to go to China, befriend China, and change the balance of power in the Cold War.

This is Episode 2.

Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger make contact with China. But in the midst of the Cold War, they don’t want anyone to know. How will Kissinger get to Beijing without alerting anyone — and what’s Frank Sinatra got to do with it?

The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network.

Book Recommendations:

Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing.

Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip

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THE GREAT WAGER EPISODE 1: Richard Nixon's 'crazy' idea: Make befriending the Chinese Communist Party his legacy

With money, power and political standing at stake, America’s relationship with China is tenuous. But it wasn’t always that way.

The Great Wager is a five-part series that tells the story of the extraordinary encounter between Richard Nixon and Mao Zedong in 1972 that brought these two countries together, the secret collaborations born from that meeting — and the reverberations we’re still feeling today. We’re thrilled to be re-airing this series, while we’re busily preparing season 3 of Face Off behind the scenes. 

This is episode 1.

President Richard Nixon has a plan: He wants to go to China. The only problem? The U.S. and China have had zero contact since the Communist Party took over China more than two decades before. The Great Wager host Jane Perlez digs into the beginning of Nixon’s improbable diplomatic mission.

The Great Wager was produced in 2022 with Here & Now and WBUR Podcasts. This special presentation of The Great Wager is produced in partnership with  Rowhome Productions. Rowhome’s Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome’s Executive Producer. Face Off is a proud member of the Airwave podcast network.

Book Recommendations:

Nixon and Mao: The Week that Changed the World by Margaret MacMillan. An insider look at how Nixon and Kissinger operated in Beijing. 

Assignment China: An Oral History of American Journalists in the People's Republic by Mike Chinoy. Chapter 4: How American reporters, who knew little about China, covered the presidential trip

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In this bonus episode of Face-Off Jane speaks with former ambassador to China, Nicholas Burns. They discuss Ambassador Burns’ encounters with the Chinese leader Xi Jinping, his meetings with American CEOs, and his travels to remote places in China. 

BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS:

To Change China, by Jonathan D. Spence

The Private Life of Chairman Mao, by Zhi-Sui Li

Chip Wars, by Chris Miller

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In a special bonus episode recorded live at the Asia Society, host Jane Perlez speaks with journalist and scholar Orville Schell about his 50 years covering Chinese leaders and their American counterparts. They attempt to answer the question: how did we get here?

Recorded live at The Asia Society on April 8, 2025

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