Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. The conversation opens on time scarcity, the devaluation of future time, and whether hope is actually a strategy. From there they discuss how great leaders don't need all the right answers (just the right questions) and the difference between executive presence and pocket presence. While digging into how the five C's of delegation build the situational awareness and critical thinking that pocket presence requires, Adam has a breakthrough realization that pocket presence isn't just an individual skill, it's a collective capability. Executive presence, they agree, is "party of one."

Resource Slack and Propensity to Discount Delayed Investments of Time Versus Money – Gal Zauberman, 2004, Journal of Experimental Psychology

Time for Happiness – Ashley Whillans, 2019, Harvard Business Review

Can We Afford to be Time Poor? The Hidden Tax of Time Poverty – Celestine Rosales, 2024, The Decision Lab

The Will and the Ways – C. R. Snyder, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Hope Theory: Rainbows in the Mind – C. R. Snyder, 2002, Psychological Inquiry

Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, The Quarterly Journal of Economics

Some Empirical Evidence on Dynamic Inconsistency – Richard Thaler, 1981, Economics Letters

Future Self-Continuity: How Conceptions of the Future Self Transform Intertemporal Choice – Hal Hershfield, 2011, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences

The stranger within: Connecting with our future selves – Cynthia Lee

April 9, 2015, UCLA Newsroom

We normally think of a weakness as a strength you lack, but it can also be a strength you overuse – Adam Grant, July 10, 2018, LinkedIn

Stop Overdoing Your Strengths – Robert Kaplan, 2009, Harvard Business Review

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

Research: Vague Feedback Is Holding Women Back – Shelley Correll, 2016, Harvard Business Review

The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, 2024, Harvard Business Review

Pocket Presence (Video) – Emmanuel Acho, n.d., TikTok

Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry – Flavell, 1979, American Psychologist

Essential social work theories & models – Syracuse University, n.d., OnlineGrad@Syracuse

The 5 Cs of strategic thinking, decision making, and delegating – Brené Brown, n.d., brenebrown.com

Atomic Habits – James Clear, 2018, Avery

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. They dig into the Buddhist concept of near and far enemies- and why the biggest threat to your values isn't the opposite of them, it's what masquerades as them. From there they move into discussion around the value of paradoxical thinking, why some tensions aren't meant to be resolved, and why sports are leadership theater. Plus a conversation about why future time is always undervalued.

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

The Near Enemies of the Heart – Jack Kornfield, n.d., jackkornfield.com

Almost Everything: Notes on Hope – Anne Lamott, 2018, Riverhead Books (Chapter 2: “Inside Job”)

12 truths I learned from life and writing – Anne Lamott, July 13, 2017, TED (Video)

Anne Lamott's thoughts on love, writing, and being judgy – Adam Grant (Host), April 16, 2024, ReThinking with Adam Grant, TED Audio Collective

Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., jimcollins.com

Exploration and Exploitation in Organizational Learning – James G. March, 1991, Organization Science

Putting Feelings Into Words – Lieberman et al., 2007, Psychological Science

How to Tame Reactive Emotions by Naming Them – Mitch Abblett, 2022, Psychology Today

Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule – Paul Graham, 2009, paulgraham.com

The Tush Push Explained – Kyle Brandt & Dr Neil DeGrasse Tyson, 2024, NFL (Video)

Togethxr’s ‘Everyone Watches Women’s Sports’ T-shirts go viral – Callie Holtermann, June 28, 2024. The New York Times

Dr. Linda Hill on leading with purpose in the digital age – Brené Brown (Host), April 18, 2022, In Dare to Lead, Vox Media

The Pre-Mortem Method – Gary Klein, 2021, Psychology Today

Golden Eggs and Hyperbolic Discounting – David Laibson, 1997, Quarterly Journal of Economics (PDF)

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Re:Thinking podcast episode recorded at Authors@Wharton, Brené joined Adam to dig into her book, Strong Ground. They explore why courage now has to mean being a learner instead of a knower, and why values aren't just what you care about-- they're what you sacrifice for. The conversation moves through the four skill sets of courage, why a value that isn't operationalized into behavior is just a poster with an eagle on it, and how to use the "story I'm making up" framework for hard conversations. They also get into executive presence, vulnerability, care, and why fake courage is easy to spot.

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

Research – Brené Brown (n.d.).

The discovery of grounded theory – Glaser & Strauss, 1967, Aldine

Awareness of dying – Glaser & Strauss, 1965, Aldine

De-tabooing dying control – Thulesius et al., 2013, BMC Palliative Care

Never Split The Difference – Chris Voss, May 24, 2016, TEDx University of Nevada

Expectancy Theory (Victor Vroom) – The Decision Lab, (n.d.)

Dare to lead: List of values – Brené Brown, 2018

Dare to Lead Hub – Brené Brown

Brené Brown brings Dare to Lead program to UT – University of Texas at Austin, 2020, UT News

Neural processing of narratives – Jääskeläinen et al., 2020, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience

The New Rules of Executive Presence – Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Jan-Feb 2024, Harvard Business Review

The Gifts of Imperfection - Your Guide to a Wholehearted Life: 10th Anniversary Collection – Brené Brown, 2010

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant sit down with their first-ever guest, Simon Sinek. Together, they explore the state of organizations globally, including the chaos hitting C-suites, the human cost of misaligned incentives, AI-driven layoffs, and leaders playing defense when they should be playing offense. They dig into what makes teams high-performing, why caring deeply about the people you lead isn't soft but essential, and what the military's culture of love and loyalty teaches us about business. The conversation also moves through nervous system regulation, shame and guilt in parenting and leadership, and what AI can or cannot replace about human connection. This episode is a reminder that the things we've been told to leave out of business, such as love, care, and human connection, may be the most important things we can bring to it.

The Old Order Is Dead. Do Not Resuscitate — Sven Beckert, November 4, 2025, The New York Times

A Friedman Doctrine — Milton Friedman, September 13, 1970, The New York Times Magazine

The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America—and How to Undo His Legacy — David Gelles, 2022, Simon & Schuster

‘Take a simple idea and take it seriously’: Charlie Munger in his own words — Financial Times

Jack Dorsey Blamed AI for 4,000 Layoffs. A Former Block Exec Says That’s Not the Real Story — Leila Sheridan, 2026, Inc.

Brené Brown on values, vulnerability, and playing to win — Adam Grant, December 22, 2025, Knowledge at Wharton (Interview)

Threat-Rigidity Effects in Organizational Behavior: A Multilevel Analysis — Barry M. Staw, 1981, Administrative Science Quarterly

Finding our strong ground, part 1 of 6 [w guest Adam Grant] — Brené Brown, September 17, 2025, In Dare to Lead. Vox Media Podcast Network

Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action — Simon Sinek, 2009, Portfolio/Penguin

The mental game of tennis: A scoping review and the introduction of the Resilience Racket Model — Konstantinou, G et al., 2025, Sports

The Inner Game of Tennis — W. Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Random House

Suppose We Took Groups Seriously… — Harold J. Leavitt, 1975, in Man and Work in Society

Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t — Simon Sinek, 2014, Portfolio/Penguin

Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House

The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization — Peter M. Senge, 1990, Doubleday/Currency

Developing Brave Leaders and Courageous Cultures — Brené Brown, Dare to Lead hub

The Infinite Game — Simon Sinek, 2019, Portfolio/Penguin

Brené Brown: Focus on guilt instead of shame — 60 Minutes, March 29, 2020, YouTube

Children’s Proneness to Shame and Guilt Predict Risky and Illegal Behaviors in Young Adulthood — Jeffrey Stuewig (lead), 2015, Child Psychiatry and Human Development

The Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe — Samuel P. Oliner & Pearl M. Oliner, 1988, Free Press

The Toxic Handler: Organizational Hero—and Casualty — Frost & Robinson, 1999, Harvard Business Review

Jensen Huang Says an Incorrect Nine-Year-Old Prediction About AI Shows Why It Won’t Destroy Jobs — CNBC, 2025, CNBC

Relational Job Design and the Motivation to Make a Prosocial Difference — Adam M. Grant, 2007, Academy of Management Review

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant use this year’s booed commencement speeches as a launching pad to explore the role of AI in our lives. They dig into what some of those commencement addresses were missing: moral imagination, emotional honesty, and real empathy for the graduates. Brené introduces the concept of being “smitten with what’s written,” the trap of polished AI output that looks good but fails to move anything forward, and unpacks why writing is a tool for thinking, not just communicating. Adam proposes that signing your name on AI-generated content is an integrity violation, and together they work through how to give feedback, set expectations, and stay human in the middle of a technological transformation. 

Show Notes:

George Saunders Reflects on his Famous Convocation Address at Syracuse University (2013) - George Saunders, 2023, Syracuse University College of Arts and Sciences

Values and Messages Conveyed in College Commencement Speeches - Jenifer Partch & Richard Kinnier, 2011, Current Psychology

Don’t Be Afraid to Fall - Brené Brown, 2020 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address)

Make Your Bed – Admiral William H. McRaven, 2014 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address)

Through Disappointment You Can Gain Clarity - Conan O'Brien, 2011, Dartmouth College (Commencement Address )

Be True to Yourself - Ellen DeGeneres, 2009 Tulane University (Commencement Address))

The Importance of Kindness - Steve Carell, 2025 Northwestern University (Commencement Address)

Make Failure Your Fuel - Abby Wambach, 2018 Barnard College (Commencement Address)

Wolfpack: How to Come Together, Unleash Our Power, and Change the Game – Abby Wambach, 2019, Celadon Books 

2026 graduates boo commencement speeches on AI - Eric Schmidt (Former Google CEO) University of Arizona; Gloria Caulfield (Real estate executive) University of Central Florida: Scott Borchetta (Big Machine Records CEO) Middle Tennessee State University, May 2026, PBS NewsHour

Exploring the Paradoxes of Human Nature: The Stockdale Paradox Explained, Brené Brown and Adam Grant, May 28, 2026, The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

A Whole New Mind – Daniel Pink, 2005, Riverhead Books (source of 'Symphony')

AI-Generated “Workslop” Is Destroying Productivity – Kate Niederhoffer et al. (BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab), 2025, Harvard Business Review

The Biggest Tell That Something Was Written by AI – Eve Fairbanks, 2026, The Atlantic

Quote Origin: I Do Not Know What I Think Until I Read What I’m Writing - Quoteresearch, 2023, Quote Investigator 

Dare to lead glossary: Key language, skills, tools, and practices (including “Paint Done”) - Brené Brown, 

Pilots and Passengers – BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab 2025, BetterUp

The Ghost in the Machine’s Memory: A Teacher’s Lament - Hudson Mathew, 2026, AI & Society (A Socrates warning, voiced by Plato)

The Enhanced Games – inaugural event May 24, 2026, Las Vegas (founder Aron D'Souza; doping-permitted competition)

Atlas of AI – Kate Crawford, 2021, Yale University Press

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant explore what happens when trust, vulnerability, grief, and performance collide. Using insights from the San Antonio Spurs and Gregg Popovich's leadership philosophy, they examine why caring deeply is an act of courage, how shame quietly undermines teams, families, and organizations, and how psychological safety fuels excellence. The conversation moves through ambition and rejection, miscarriage and loss, community, emotional intelligence and empathy, and the ways people show up for one another through life's hardest moments. This episode explores how strength and kindness are not opposites and why building cultures of trust may be one of the most important things we do.

Victor Wembanyama on having Spurs legend David Robinson and Tim Duncan in the building - 2026, Yahoo Sports 

Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 1 of 2 -

Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)

Victor Wembanyama Emotional After Spurs Advance to the NBA Finals - 2026, Bleacher Report 

Goals research summary - Gail Matthews, 2015, Dominican University of California

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, Gotham Books

Ring Theory Helps Us Bring Comfort In

- Elena Sandler, 2025, Psychology Today 

Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book) 

U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy & Adam Grant on Loneliness - Murthy & Grant, Authors@Wharton, 2024, YouTube 

​Andrew Garfield on grief and the loss of his mother – CBS, 2021, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert​

National Survey of Gun Policy - Center for Gun Violence Solutions, 2025, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health 

Empathic Joy and the Empathy-Altruism Hypothesis - Batson et al, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1992-05357-001

Human empathy through the lens of social neuroscience - Decety & Lamm, 2006, The Scientific World Journal 

​The Making of an American​ – Jacob Riis, 1901, Macmillan 

​The Coach–Athlete Relationship Questionnaire (CART-Q)​ – Sophia Jowett, 2004, Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports 

​Bad Is Stronger Than Good​ – Roy Baumeister, 2001, Review of General Psychology 

​Scarred for the Rest of My Career?​ – Erica Carleton (with Julian Barling), 2016, Journal of Sport and Exercise Psychology 

The evolution of shame and its display -

Landers & Sznycer, 2022,

Evolutionary human sciences 

​Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior​ – June Tangney, 2007, Annual Review of Psychology

The Inside Story of the Ever-Changing Brain - Brené Brown and David Eagleman, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast

Unlocking the Mysteries of our Brain - Chris Anderson with David Eagleman, 2022, The TED Interview

Winning coaches’ locker room secret - Blanding on the research of Barry Staw, 2019, UC Berkeley Haas School of Business

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant unpack the paradoxes that shape our lives, relationships, leadership, and decision-making. They explore the Abilene Paradox, the Stockdale Paradox, why groups often make decisions nobody actually wants, and how people balance gritty facts with gritty faith. The conversation moves through spirituality, teamwork, family dynamics, optimism, creativity, and even unexpected debates about Twilight and Pitch Perfect. Funny, thoughtful, and deeply human, this episode examines why two opposite truths can exist at the same time and why learning to live inside that tension may be one of the most important skills we have. 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

00:00 Intro: Paradoxes, Dad Jokes & Big Questions

04:20 What Is a Paradox?

10:15 The Grace Paradox

19:02 The Abilene Paradox

27:04 How to Avoid the Abilene Paradox

30:45 Guilty Pleasures: Twilight, Pitch Perfect & Eurovision

38:38 Aesthetic Chills & The Big Five

43:08 The Stockdale Paradox Explained

46:48 Gritty Facts vs. Gritty Faith

49:47 Why Leaders Need Paradoxical Thinking

51:04 MLK’s “I Have a Dream” Speech

55:39 Candor Over Consensus

57:32 Comfort vs. Courage

1:02:06 Jim Collins & The Genius of the And

1:06:48 Harvard's Anti-Grade Inflation Policy

1:09:21 How Brené Grades Group Projects

1:13:19 Building the Muscle to Hold Paradox

1:14:54 Personal Paradoxes & The Grace of Getting It Wrong

Lump - Allison Sweet Grant, September 2026, Little, Brown and Co. (Forthcoming book)

Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems - Smith & Lewis, 2022, Harvard Business Review Press (Book)

Toward A Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing - Smith & Lewis, 2011, Academy of Management Review

Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World - Adam Grant, October 2026, Vking (Forthcoming book)

Holding the Tension, The Wisdom of Paradox - Adapted, 2024, from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, 2009, Center for Action and Contemplation,

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

SmartLess (Guest: Stephen Colbert) - Arnett, Bateman & Hayes, SiriusXM/Wondery (Podcast)

The Abilene Paradox: The Management of Agreement - Harvey, 1974, Organizational Dynamics

Eurovision Song-Along: Story of Fire Saga: "Song-Along" - Dobking, D. (Director), 2020, Netflix (Movie clip)

Grease: "You're The One That I Want" - Kleiser, R. (Director) 1978, Paramount Pictures (Movie clip)

Brain Connectivity Reflects Human Aesthetic Responses to Music - Sachs, Ellis, Schlaug & Loui, 2016, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience

Aesthetic Chills as a Universal Marker of Openness to Experience - McCrae, 2007, Motivation and Emotion

The Stockdale Paradox - Jim Collins, 2017, jimcollins.com

Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't - Jim Collins, 2001, HarperBusiness (Book)

Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts - Brené Brown, 2018, Random House (Book)

The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research - Barney Glaser and Anselm Strauss, 1967, Aldine (Book)

It's 2020, Stop Saying 'Negative Nancy' - Sexist colloquialisms to avoid - Eskreis-Winkler, 2020, An Injustice! (Magazine)

https://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2008/07/nervous-nellie-was-not-a-woman/

The Will and the Ways: Development and Validation of an Individual-Differences Measure of Hope - Snyder et al., 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

An analysis of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" public speech - Duarte, 2011

BE 2.0 (Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0): Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company - Collins and Lazier, 2020, Portfolio/Penguin (Book)

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can’t tolerate the cringe of The Office —and Adam’s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great! 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today?

5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety 

16:30 - Grieving for Joy

28:22 - Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office?

43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules

49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully

1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit

1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now

Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996)

The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston

Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon

The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books

I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS

The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC

Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science

Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast)

Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book)

Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute

The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) 

Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series)

The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica

Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes

Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics

Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology

Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book)

Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics

Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research

Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do you find yourself defaulting to “Preacher” mode when you’re under pressure, or starting to act like a “Prosecutor” when someone challenges your ideas? Brené and Adam unpack four mental modes – Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, and Scientist – to explore why we often cling to being right rather than getting it right. In this episode, they discuss how these defensive stances are shaping our response to AI, Brené’s “bounce” method for emotional hypothesis-testing, Adam’s go-to “strategy of small losses,” and ways to stay curious when the stakes are high.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Emoting

3:00 - Thinking Under Thread

11:00 - Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments

22:30 - The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast

27:15 - Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician

33:57 - When Opinions Become Beliefs

42:48 - The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds

51:30 - A Missing Mental Model: Teacher

59:30 - Wrap up

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Eric Ries on ‘The Lean Startup’ - Eric Ries, 2011, Knowledge at Wharton

Learning Through Failure: The Strategy of Small Losses - Sitkin, 1992, Research in Organizational Behavior

Affective Forecasting - Wilson & Gilbert, 2003, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology

Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book)

The Science of the Deal - Adam Grant, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2011, TED

The Surprising Habits of Original Thinkers - Adam Grant, 2016, TED

Beliefs Are Like Possessions - Abelson, 2007, Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour

We Need to Talk about Astrology - Adam Grant, 2024, Substack 

The Diplomat - Cahn et al., 2023-present, Let's Not Turn This Into a Whole Big Production & Well Red, Netflix (TV series)

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction

1:10 - The Invisible Army

15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus

21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability?

40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability

46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity 

1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode

Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)

Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology

Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series)

Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology

Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives

What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? -

Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review

The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter

The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes

How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly

Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?”

They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 

1:49 - Return to Office 

22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model

34:15 - Birth Order

40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance

https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas

https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401

https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research

https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000

https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866

https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices