In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant sit down with their first-ever guest, Simon Sinek. Together, they explore the state of organizations globally, including the chaos hitting C-suites, the human cost of misaligned incentives, AI-driven layoffs, and leaders playing defense when they should be playing offense. They dig into what makes teams high-performing, why caring deeply about the people you lead isn't soft but essential, and what the military's culture of love and loyalty teaches us about business. The conversation also moves through nervous system regulation, shame and guilt in parenting and leadership, and what AI can or cannot replace about human connection. This episode is a reminder that the things we've been told to leave out of business, such as love, care, and human connection, may be the most important things we can bring to it.

The Old Order Is Dead. Do Not Resuscitate — Sven Beckert, November 4, 2025, The New York Times

A Friedman Doctrine — Milton Friedman, September 13, 1970, The New York Times Magazine

The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America—and How to Undo His Legacy — David Gelles, 2022, Simon & Schuster

‘Take a simple idea and take it seriously’: Charlie Munger in his own words — Financial Times

Jack Dorsey Blamed AI for 4,000 Layoffs. A Former Block Exec Says That’s Not the Real Story — Leila Sheridan, 2026, Inc.

Brené Brown on values, vulnerability, and playing to win — Adam Grant, December 22, 2025, Knowledge at Wharton (Interview)

Threat-Rigidity Effects in Organizational Behavior: A Multilevel Analysis — Barry M. Staw, 1981, Administrative Science Quarterly

Finding our strong ground, part 1 of 6 [w guest Adam Grant] — Brené Brown, September 17, 2025, In Dare to Lead. Vox Media Podcast Network

Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action — Simon Sinek, 2009, Portfolio/Penguin

The mental game of tennis: A scoping review and the introduction of the Resilience Racket Model — Konstantinou, G et al., 2025, Sports

The Inner Game of Tennis — W. Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Random House

Suppose We Took Groups Seriously… — Harold J. Leavitt, 1975, in Man and Work in Society

Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t — Simon Sinek, 2014, Portfolio/Penguin

Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House

The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization — Peter M. Senge, 1990, Doubleday/Currency

Developing Brave Leaders and Courageous Cultures — Brené Brown, Dare to Lead hub

The Infinite Game — Simon Sinek, 2019, Portfolio/Penguin

Brené Brown: Focus on guilt instead of shame — 60 Minutes, March 29, 2020, YouTube

Children’s Proneness to Shame and Guilt Predict Risky and Illegal Behaviors in Young Adulthood — Jeffrey Stuewig (lead), 2015, Child Psychiatry and Human Development

The Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe — Samuel P. Oliner & Pearl M. Oliner, 1988, Free Press

The Toxic Handler: Organizational Hero—and Casualty — Frost & Robinson, 1999, Harvard Business Review

Jensen Huang Says an Incorrect Nine-Year-Old Prediction About AI Shows Why It Won’t Destroy Jobs — CNBC, 2025, CNBC

Relational Job Design and the Motivation to Make a Prosocial Difference — Adam M. Grant, 2007, Academy of Management Review

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In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant use this year’s booed commencement speeches as a launching pad to explore the role of AI in our lives. They dig into what some of those commencement addresses were missing: moral imagination, emotional honesty, and real empathy for the graduates. Brené introduces the concept of being “smitten with what’s written,” the trap of polished AI output that looks good but fails to move anything forward, and unpacks why writing is a tool for thinking, not just communicating. Adam proposes that signing your name on AI-generated content is an integrity violation, and together they work through how to give feedback, set expectations, and stay human in the middle of a technological transformation. 

Show Notes:

George Saunders Reflects on his Famous Convocation Address at Syracuse University (2013) - George Saunders, 2023, Syracuse University College of Arts and Sciences

Values and Messages Conveyed in College Commencement Speeches - Jenifer Partch & Richard Kinnier, 2011, Current Psychology

Don’t Be Afraid to Fall - Brené Brown, 2020 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address)

Make Your Bed – Admiral William H. McRaven, 2014 University of Texas at Austin (Commencement Address)

Through Disappointment You Can Gain Clarity - Conan O'Brien, 2011, Dartmouth College (Commencement Address )

Be True to Yourself - Ellen DeGeneres, 2009 Tulane University (Commencement Address))

The Importance of Kindness - Steve Carell, 2025 Northwestern University (Commencement Address)

Make Failure Your Fuel - Abby Wambach, 2018 Barnard College (Commencement Address)

Wolfpack: How to Come Together, Unleash Our Power, and Change the Game – Abby Wambach, 2019, Celadon Books 

2026 graduates boo commencement speeches on AI - Eric Schmidt (Former Google CEO) University of Arizona; Gloria Caulfield (Real estate executive) University of Central Florida: Scott Borchetta (Big Machine Records CEO) Middle Tennessee State University, May 2026, PBS NewsHour

Exploring the Paradoxes of Human Nature: The Stockdale Paradox Explained, Brené Brown and Adam Grant, May 28, 2026, The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

A Whole New Mind – Daniel Pink, 2005, Riverhead Books (source of 'Symphony')

AI-Generated “Workslop” Is Destroying Productivity – Kate Niederhoffer et al. (BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab), 2025, Harvard Business Review

The Biggest Tell That Something Was Written by AI – Eve Fairbanks, 2026, The Atlantic

Quote Origin: I Do Not Know What I Think Until I Read What I’m Writing - Quoteresearch, 2023, Quote Investigator 

Dare to lead glossary: Key language, skills, tools, and practices (including “Paint Done”) - Brené Brown, 

Pilots and Passengers – BetterUp Labs & Stanford Social Media Lab 2025, BetterUp

The Ghost in the Machine’s Memory: A Teacher’s Lament - Hudson Mathew, 2026, AI & Society (A Socrates warning, voiced by Plato)

The Enhanced Games – inaugural event May 24, 2026, Las Vegas (founder Aron D'Souza; doping-permitted competition)

Atlas of AI – Kate Crawford, 2021, Yale University Press

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In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant explore what happens when trust, vulnerability, grief, and performance collide. Using insights from the San Antonio Spurs and Gregg Popovich's leadership philosophy, they examine why caring deeply is an act of courage, how shame quietly undermines teams, families, and organizations, and how psychological safety fuels excellence. The conversation moves through ambition and rejection, miscarriage and loss, community, emotional intelligence and empathy, and the ways people show up for one another through life's hardest moments. This episode explores how strength and kindness are not opposites and why building cultures of trust may be one of the most important things we do.

Victor Wembanyama on having Spurs legend David Robinson and Tim Duncan in the building - 2026, Yahoo Sports 

Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 1 of 2 -

Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)

Victor Wembanyama Emotional After Spurs Advance to the NBA Finals - 2026, Bleacher Report 

Goals research summary - Gail Matthews, 2015, Dominican University of California

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, Gotham Books

Ring Theory Helps Us Bring Comfort In

- Elena Sandler, 2025, Psychology Today 

Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book) 

U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy & Adam Grant on Loneliness - Murthy & Grant, Authors@Wharton, 2024, YouTube 

​Andrew Garfield on grief and the loss of his mother – CBS, 2021, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert​

National Survey of Gun Policy - Center for Gun Violence Solutions, 2025, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health 

Empathic Joy and the Empathy-Altruism Hypothesis - Batson et al, 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1992-05357-001

Human empathy through the lens of social neuroscience - Decety & Lamm, 2006, The Scientific World Journal 

​The Making of an American​ – Jacob Riis, 1901, Macmillan 

​The Coach–Athlete Relationship Questionnaire (CART-Q)​ – Sophia Jowett, 2004, Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports 

​Bad Is Stronger Than Good​ – Roy Baumeister, 2001, Review of General Psychology 

​Scarred for the Rest of My Career?​ – Erica Carleton (with Julian Barling), 2016, Journal of Sport and Exercise Psychology 

The evolution of shame and its display -

Landers & Sznycer, 2022,

Evolutionary human sciences 

​Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior​ – June Tangney, 2007, Annual Review of Psychology

The Inside Story of the Ever-Changing Brain - Brené Brown and David Eagleman, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast

Unlocking the Mysteries of our Brain - Chris Anderson with David Eagleman, 2022, The TED Interview

Winning coaches’ locker room secret - Blanding on the research of Barry Staw, 2019, UC Berkeley Haas School of Business

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In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant unpack the paradoxes that shape our lives, relationships, leadership, and decision-making. They explore the Abilene Paradox, the Stockdale Paradox, why groups often make decisions nobody actually wants, and how people balance gritty facts with gritty faith. The conversation moves through spirituality, teamwork, family dynamics, optimism, creativity, and even unexpected debates about Twilight and Pitch Perfect. Funny, thoughtful, and deeply human, this episode examines why two opposite truths can exist at the same time and why learning to live inside that tension may be one of the most important skills we have. 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

00:00 Intro: Paradoxes, Dad Jokes & Big Questions

04:20 What Is a Paradox?

10:15 The Grace Paradox

19:02 The Abilene Paradox

27:04 How to Avoid the Abilene Paradox

30:45 Guilty Pleasures: Twilight, Pitch Perfect & Eurovision

38:38 Aesthetic Chills & The Big Five

43:08 The Stockdale Paradox Explained

46:48 Gritty Facts vs. Gritty Faith

49:47 Why Leaders Need Paradoxical Thinking

51:04 MLK’s “I Have a Dream” Speech

55:39 Candor Over Consensus

57:32 Comfort vs. Courage

1:02:06 Jim Collins & The Genius of the And

1:06:48 Harvard's Anti-Grade Inflation Policy

1:09:21 How Brené Grades Group Projects

1:13:19 Building the Muscle to Hold Paradox

1:14:54 Personal Paradoxes & The Grace of Getting It Wrong

Lump - Allison Sweet Grant, September 2026, Little, Brown and Co. (Forthcoming book)

Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems - Smith & Lewis, 2022, Harvard Business Review Press (Book)

Toward A Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing - Smith & Lewis, 2011, Academy of Management Review

Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World - Adam Grant, October 2026, Vking (Forthcoming book)

Holding the Tension, The Wisdom of Paradox - Adapted, 2024, from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, 2009, Center for Action and Contemplation,

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

SmartLess (Guest: Stephen Colbert) - Arnett, Bateman & Hayes, SiriusXM/Wondery (Podcast)

The Abilene Paradox: The Management of Agreement - Harvey, 1974, Organizational Dynamics

Eurovision Song-Along: Story of Fire Saga: "Song-Along" - Dobking, D. (Director), 2020, Netflix (Movie clip)

Grease: "You're The One That I Want" - Kleiser, R. (Director) 1978, Paramount Pictures (Movie clip)

Brain Connectivity Reflects Human Aesthetic Responses to Music - Sachs, Ellis, Schlaug & Loui, 2016, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience

Aesthetic Chills as a Universal Marker of Openness to Experience - McCrae, 2007, Motivation and Emotion

The Stockdale Paradox - Jim Collins, 2017, jimcollins.com

Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't - Jim Collins, 2001, HarperBusiness (Book)

Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts - Brené Brown, 2018, Random House (Book)

The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research - Barney Glaser and Anselm Strauss, 1967, Aldine (Book)

It's 2020, Stop Saying 'Negative Nancy' - Sexist colloquialisms to avoid - Eskreis-Winkler, 2020, An Injustice! (Magazine)

https://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2008/07/nervous-nellie-was-not-a-woman/

The Will and the Ways: Development and Validation of an Individual-Differences Measure of Hope - Snyder et al., 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

An analysis of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" public speech - Duarte, 2011

BE 2.0 (Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0): Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company - Collins and Lazier, 2020, Portfolio/Penguin (Book)

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Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can’t tolerate the cringe of The Office —and Adam’s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great! 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today?

5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety 

16:30 - Grieving for Joy

28:22 - Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office?

43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules

49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully

1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit

1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now

Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996)

The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston

Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon

The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books

I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS

The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC

Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science

Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast)

Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book)

Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute

The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) 

Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series)

The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica

Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes

Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics

Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology

Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book)

Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics

Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research

Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine

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Do you find yourself defaulting to “Preacher” mode when you’re under pressure, or starting to act like a “Prosecutor” when someone challenges your ideas? Brené and Adam unpack four mental modes – Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, and Scientist – to explore why we often cling to being right rather than getting it right. In this episode, they discuss how these defensive stances are shaping our response to AI, Brené’s “bounce” method for emotional hypothesis-testing, Adam’s go-to “strategy of small losses,” and ways to stay curious when the stakes are high.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Emoting

3:00 - Thinking Under Thread

11:00 - Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments

22:30 - The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast

27:15 - Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician

33:57 - When Opinions Become Beliefs

42:48 - The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds

51:30 - A Missing Mental Model: Teacher

59:30 - Wrap up

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Eric Ries on ‘The Lean Startup’ - Eric Ries, 2011, Knowledge at Wharton

Learning Through Failure: The Strategy of Small Losses - Sitkin, 1992, Research in Organizational Behavior

Affective Forecasting - Wilson & Gilbert, 2003, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology

Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book)

The Science of the Deal - Adam Grant, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2011, TED

The Surprising Habits of Original Thinkers - Adam Grant, 2016, TED

Beliefs Are Like Possessions - Abelson, 2007, Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour

We Need to Talk about Astrology - Adam Grant, 2024, Substack 

The Diplomat - Cahn et al., 2023-present, Let's Not Turn This Into a Whole Big Production & Well Red, Netflix (TV series)

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Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction

1:10 - The Invisible Army

15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus

21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability?

40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability

46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity 

1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode

Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)

Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology

Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series)

Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology

Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives

What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? -

Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review

The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter

The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes

How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly

Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

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In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?”

They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 

1:49 - Return to Office 

22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model

34:15 - Birth Order

40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance

https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas

https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401

https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research

https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000

https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866

https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112

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From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapter Titles + Timestamps:

• 0:00 - Introduction

• 2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame

• 8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation

• 14:04 - What Is Humiliation?

• 18:30 - Why Don’t People Outgrow Shame?

• 29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame?

• 38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame

• 42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome?

• 50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment

Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg) 

Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles

Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self‑conscious emotions: Theory and research 

Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & Development Shame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies

Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It’s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy 

Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review

How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik)

Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths) 

Listening to shame, Brené Brown, 2012, TED

The Power of Vulnerability, Brené Brown, 2011, TED

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Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders.  

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions

3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal

13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships?

22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair

32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders?

40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty

52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty

59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty

1:05:00 - Closing

Show Notes:

Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study)

The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book

Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast

Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book

Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly

Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States -  Albert Hirschman,1970, Book

The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory

The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book

I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast

Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book

A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research  

Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders

Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals 

The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book  

Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University

Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance

Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin

The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter

Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book

Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition

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What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning–Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we’re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how “I’ve got this” energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way.

You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube⁠ and Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

0:00 - Introductions

3:45 - Eileen Gu’s Metacognition  

12:22 - What is Metacognition? 

25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger?

38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy 

44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts 

58:17 - Wrap up

Shownotes:

I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book 

Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979

Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research

Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023,  Re:Thinking with Adam Grant 

The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018

The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018

Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University

The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book

Charlotte Harpur and Eileen Gu, Final Press Conference, 2026 Winter Olympics, Milano, Italy.

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