Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders.  

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions

3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal

13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships?

22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair

32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders?

40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty

52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty

59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty

1:05:00 - Closing

Show Notes:

Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study)

The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book

Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast

Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book

Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly

Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States -  Albert Hirschman,1970, Book

The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory

The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book

I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast

Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book

A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research  

Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders

Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals 

The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book  

Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University

Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance

Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin

The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter

Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book

Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition

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What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning–Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we’re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how “I’ve got this” energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way.

You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube⁠ and Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

0:00 - Introductions

3:45 - Eileen Gu’s Metacognition  

12:22 - What is Metacognition? 

25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger?

38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy 

44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts 

58:17 - Wrap up

Shownotes:

I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book 

Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979

Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research

Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023,  Re:Thinking with Adam Grant 

The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018

The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018

Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University

The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book

Charlotte Harpur and Eileen Gu, Final Press Conference, 2026 Winter Olympics, Milano, Italy.

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This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

0:00 - Introduction

3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders

12:21 - Shame-Based Fear

18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong?

19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader

26:00 - Mission Over Ego

29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss

39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism

47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement

1:02:20 - Closing

Show Notes:

Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025.

O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021.

Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16)

Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame)

Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022

We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets

George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013

Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance)

How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25)

Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT

My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016

Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents)

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Brené and Adam have a bracingly honest conversation about what could go wrong in their collaboration, and how to set new teams, partnerships, and friendships up for success. They discuss the science of avoiding failure and building alignment, and practical strategies for navigating differences—including their own clashing instincts around minimalism vs. maximalism and sarcasm vs. trashtalk. The episode closes with what each of them is listening to, watching, and reading right now.

You can also find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

00:00 - How Brené Inadvertently Launched Adam into Podcasting

02:57 - Interpreting Sarcasm 

16:08 - How to Prevent Failure

28:57 - How Could This Partnership Could Go Wrong

38:42 - Learning From Differences

52:05 - How to Align Teams  

1:02:00 - Closing Questions

Show Notes:

Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On - The Curiosity Shop Episode 1

Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed

My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown 2016 LinkedIn

How to Love Criticism - Adam Grant 2018 WorkLife with Adam Grant

Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast

Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective

Hypervigilance in Mary Poppins (1964)

The art and science of trash talk with Rafi Kohan - Adam Grant 2024 Work Life With Adam Grant

Performing a Project Premortem - Gary Klein 2007 HBR

Evaluating the Effectiveness of the PreMortem Technique on Plan Confidence - Veinot, Klein, & Wiggins 2010 ISCRAM Conference

The Economics of Gender Differences in Employment Outcomes in Academia - Donna Ginther 2006 National Library of Medicine

Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System - Donnella Meadows 1999 The Donella Meadows Project Academy for Systems Change

Narcissists: Are We Surrounded? On Science Vs: - Wendy Zukerman 2024 Science VS Podcast

Human Raised: Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, & Lifelong Learning in the Age - Dana Suskind, MD 2026 Book

The Killing Stones A Detective Jimmy Perez Novel - Ann Cleeves 2025 Book

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Welcome to The Curiosity Shop! In the inaugural episode, Brené and Adam discuss how a public disagreement about authenticity almost ended their relationship before it began. For the first time, they discuss where they went wrong, why they changed their minds about each other, and what they learned about repair and trust. They also explore what healthy authenticity looks like, and dive into the many things they may still never fully see eye to eye on – from email vs. texting to remote work to faith.

Show Notes

Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed

The Fine Line Between Helpful and Harmful Authenticity - Adam Grant 2020 NYT

Authenticity Is a Double-Edged Sword -  Adam Grant 2020 WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast 

My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016

The Dangers of Being Authentic - Adam Grant LinkedIn 2016

In Tough Times, Psychological Safety Is a Requirement, Not a Luxury  - Michael Blanding 2025 HBR

Jecker & Landy: Liking a person as a function of doing him a favour  - Jecker & Landy 1969 APA PsycNet

Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know  - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast

Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective

A Whole New Mind (Right-Brainers will Rule the Future)  - Daniel H. Pink 2005 Book

The Neuroscience of You: How Every Brain Is Different and How to Understand Yours  - Chantel Prat 2022 Book

Dr. Harriet Lerner on I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2  - Brené Brown and Dr. Harriet Lerner 2020 Unlocking Us Podcast

Happy Gilmore Scene - I’m Stupid You’re Smart - Happy Gilmore 1996 Movie

Shame and Guilt - June Price Tangney 2002 Book

Daniel Kahneman: Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant and Daniel Kahneman 2021 Re:Thinking

But yes, Blue Jays are master mimics

Sponsor List

Thank you to SAS and Canva!

Chapters Titles + Timestamps

0:00 - Introduction

3:26 - Our First Disagreement

18:45 - Our Path Here

28:31 - Approach to Repair an Apology

51:02 - Closing Question

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Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop will see two of the world’s most influential thought leaders make the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities — she’s a qualitative researcher; he’s a quantitative researcher — they will explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. Tune in for the first episode on Thursday, March 19!

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In the second part of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené shares an excerpt from the Strong Ground audiobook that walks listeners through the one topic that elicited the most questions — the Above/Below the Line practice. This is one of the most profound self-awareness tools we discovered!

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In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the importance of pausing during big decisions where action is not always impact, breaks down how to be courageous when it’s not the popular choice, and emphasizes the role of curiosity and thoughtfulness when moving through uncertainty and overwhelm.

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In the final episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam discuss the problem with rewarding all effort as excellence. Instead, leaders should reward effort that is not leading to success or mastery with their time through coaching, mentoring, and sharing their own experiences of transformation and change. They also explore how to approach decisions based on how consequential and reversible they are and highlight the role that leaders play in setting up others for success by making sure their team has what they need.

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In the fifth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam break down the skillsets of empathy, empathy misses, and how empathy is trickier than walking in someone else’s shoes. They discuss the way empathy can show up as being curious and caring — irreducible prerequisites for good leadership. Brené shares a powerful sentence for leaders building an empathy skillset: “What does support from me look like right now?”

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In the fourth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam explore the attack on empathy, the difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and what separates empathy from enmeshment. Brené shares a personal story that led to a breakthrough around how to stay aligned with empathy and perspective taking instead of over-identifying and finding yourself in enmeshment — the feeling of not knowing where you end and someone else begins. They also discuss how living in an image-heavy world can affect the way we engage with empathy.

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