We often think of sacred texts like the Bible as being rigid, set in stone. But actually they’re really nuanced and complex, and crucially, they allow us to bring our own complexity. Dr. Janette H. Ok is a New Testament professor at Fuller Seminary. She empowers her students to embrace their unique perspectives and backgrounds, and use those as powerful tools in biblical reflection. In this conversation, Janette also explains how wisdom isn’t something you master, but a way of living you can cultivate. And she shares a practice for how we can go beyond quick Biblical memes, and dive deep into what might transform us.

Links and resources:

About Janette

About Saint Augustine of Hippo

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.

Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter

Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Pádraig Ó Tuama is an Irish poet, theologian and host of the On Being podcast, Poetry Unbound. Belonging, identity and reconciliation are at the heart of his work. Growing up bilingual, speaking both English and Irish, showed Pádraig that there are multiple ways to say things, and multiple ways to look at things.  As a young gay man, Pádraig was subjected to abusive conversion practices, and it was his yearning for a better language to understand God and himself that led him to poetry and conflict mediation.  Pádraig shows us both the brutality and the beauty of language, how words can destroy or nourish, and choosing which words to use is a power worth cultivating. 

You’ll learn how to balance fear and courage, and why you should approach conflicts in your life by admitting what you don’t know. Padraig also shares a journaling practice to draw out your own poetic voice. 

Links and resources

• About Pádraig 

• Poetry Unbound

• Pádraig’s memoir In the Shelter: Finding a Home in the World

• Pádraig also read The Exorcist and Oh What A Marvel it Appeared to Me from his 2023 collection Feed the Beast

• His latest collection is Kitchen Hymns

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Dr. Richard M. Lerner is a revolutionary force in the field of psychology, which had previously focused on what goes wrong with people. Richard’s relentlessly optimistic vision focuses on what can go right with people, how they can change and grow. 

In this special conversation, Pam sits down with her mentor – someone who’s had an influential impact on her career and research, to discuss thriving, relationships, spirituality and transcendence. 

Richard is the Bergstrom Chair in Applied Developmental Science, and the Director of the Institute for Applied Research in Youth Development at Tufts University. 

Links and resources:

About Richard’s work

Richard speaks at the Vatican

Richard’s books

What makes young people thrive

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For:

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Spiritual practices can improve your physical and emotional health – but that doesn’t mean spirituality is a wellness hack. David DeSteno’s groundbreaking work explores how religious rituals like prayer and chanting are so beneficial as powerful psychological tools. But what happens if you take these rituals outside of their community context? David can speak to both sides of the equation: the science behind faith, and the mystery of the sacred. 

 David DeSteno is a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, where he directs the Social Emotions Lab – exploring the effects of emotions like gratitude and compassion. His latest book is called How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion, and he hosts a podcast of the same name. 

About David’s work:

David’s website

How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion - 2021 book

How God Works podcast 

Social Emotions Lab

David referenced: 

Michael Pollen

Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research 

Rabbi Shira Stutman 

Rabbi Angela Buchdahl

Rev. Alex Leach’s Burning Man camp

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

Many of us reach our 40s and have a wake-up call: a major event that shifts our perspective on what matters in life. Chip Conley had the most dramatic wake-up call ever: a near-death experience. Chip was giving a speech on stage when he died – literally. The experience would set off a chain reaction of events that changed the course of his life.

Chip is a renowned entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker known for his pioneering approach to innovation, leadership, and hospitality. He founded the country’s second-largest operator of boutique hotels, then led a travel revolution at Airbnb. But it was his brush with death that spurred him to launch the Modern Elder Academy, a series of workshops and programs that help folks reframe their relationship with aging. 

In this episode, we talk about navigating transitions, cultivating purpose, and owning wisdom, and Chip shares a practice for tapping into your own wisdom. 

Links and resources:

The Modern Elder Academy

The Anatomy of a Transition - free ebook

MEA on Facebook

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

 Elizabeth Oldfield is a writer, coach and host of the podcast The Sacred, who has dedicated her work to exploring clarity, courage and most of all, connection. And yet – her latest book Fully Alive dives into the seven deadly sins. That’s because Elizabeth believes that sins like pride, greed and wrath, are what break our connection to others. So maybe understanding how these sins are so destructive to our lives might just be a key to becoming more fully alive.

 In this conversation, Pam and Elizabeth talk about why hard feelings – like anxiety, grief, and even tension with loved ones – are actually invitations. We have to let ourselves feel complicated, messy emotions in order to draw closer to others and to God.  Elizabeth also shares a reflective journaling practice to help you live out your values. 

Links and resources

About Elizabeth Oldfield

The Sacred podcast 

Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times book

Fully Alive, Elizabeth’s Substack 

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media & Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenSenior Producer: Clare WileyExecutive Producer: Jakob LewisProduced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

It’s not always easy to see how the four cardinal virtues connect to your everyday life. But prudence, justice, courage, and temperance are vital in helping us thrive. Lee C. Camp is a professor, speaker, writer, and theologian – as well as host of the hit podcast and public radio show No Small Endeavour. His work explores what it means to be flourishing humans - alone and together. 

With his wit and wisdom in this episode, Lee will turn your preconceptions about the four virtues upside down. He shares what he learned about courage from having difficult conversations with his wife, what he learned about temperance from sharing a beer with good friends, and the ways that prudence can help us carry the heavy emotional weight of the world right now. 

In this conversation, we talk about how to guard ourselves against shame, how to cultivate gladness, and how to fight powerlessness. And crucially: Lee shows us how to turn virtue into a daily habit. 

Links and resources:

Lee C. Camp

No Small Endeavor 

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

One of Rabbi Shai Held’s first experiences of love was from his father, who loved him ferociously. Tragically, he died when Shai was 12 years old. The experience shook Shai’s belief and trust in God. 

But Rabbi Held is someone who can hold the messy contradictions of faith and love. He understands that one minute, we can feel intense love, and the next, we’re full of resentment and frustration. Rabbi Held is also the most generous of teachers: he shares his struggles and doubts, in order to hold space for our own.

Rabbi Held's latest book is called Judaism is About Love. It is a radical and provocative effort that points to love as the heart of the Jewish faith. 

 Rabbi Shai Held is president of the Hadar Institute, an educational center that builds egalitarian Jewish communities through learning, prayer, and acts of kindness. He has received the Covenant Award for excellence in Jewish education and was included multiple times in Newsweek’s list of most influential rabbis in America. 

You will walk away from this raw, emotional interview understanding that love is more than a sentiment - - and you'll learn that focusing on divine love is central to your everyday spiritual health. 

Links and resources: 

About Rabbi Shai Held 

About the Hadar Institute 

Answers WithHeld podcast

Abraham Joshua Heschel

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

Learn more at thethrivecenter.org. Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter. Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

Host: Pam King

Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook

Operations Manager: Lauren Kim

Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen

Senior Producer: Clare Wiley

Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis

Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

When Parker J. Palmer was a young man, he became aware of a growing unrest within him. Guided by his inner voice, he turned down prestigious university jobs and instead took a challenging, unstable job in community organizing. Parker then followed his north star again – and moved with his family to live in a radically equal Quaker community for over a decade. 

 Parker is an activist and author who has written 10 incredibly influential books – including Let Your Life Speak. He founded the Center for Courage & Renewal, which supports leadership, vocation, and community formation. And in 2021, the Freedom of Spirit Fund gave him their Lifetime Achievement Award in honor of work that promotes and protects spiritual freedom.

Parker believes that in this moment of instability, finding our internal grounding is more important than ever – and he shares a beautiful ‘circle of trust’ practice for listening deeply to others. You’ll learn how others are so crucial to tuning into your true inner voice - and how listening to ourselves can then move us out into the wider world.

Links and resources: 

• About Parker J. Palmer
• Parker’s 10 published books
• About the Center for Courage & Renewal
• Living the Questions - Parker J. Palmer’s Substack
• The Growing Edge, Parker’s project with Carrie Newcomer
• Parker’s collected On Being columns

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Senior Producer: Clare Wiley
• Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis
• Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

One of the most persistent myths about self-compassion is that it’s selfish. But in reality, self-compassion connects us to the rest of humanity – and it’s a critical pathway to thriving. 

Dr. Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the study of self-compassion. As Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas and founding director of the Self-Compassion Institute, Kristin has spent decades researching the mind-altering power of self-compassion.

Kristin's findings show that kindness is a better motivator than criticism, and she breaks down how self-compassion connects to healthy spirituality. Kristin also talks openly about how self-compassion helped her face challenges through her divorce and in parenting her son, who’s on the autism spectrum. 

 You will walk away from this episode with a three-step plan for self-compassion - and a simple practice if you don’t know where to get started.

Links and resources

• The Self-Compassion Institute
• Guided practices
• About Dr. Kristin Neff

With & For is a podcast of the Thrive Center, an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

• Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King hosts With & For, and is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Senior Producer: Clare Wiley
• Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis
• Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

With & For is back with a brand new season exploring spiritual health. 

What is healthy  spirituality exactly, and how does it help us thrive? How do spiritual practices connect us to others? And what does it mean to have a calling in life?

 We have some incredible guests this season – leading thinkers from across faith, art and psychology – like author activist Parker Palmer, self-compassion pioneer Kristin Neff, developmental scientist Richard Lerner and How God Works host David DeSteno.

Hosted by development psychologist, ordained minister and professor Dr. Pam King,  With & For bridges psychology and spiritual wisdom to help you thrive.

 Season three launches January 26th. 

The Thrive Center is an applied research center that exists to catalyze a movement of human thriving, with and for others through spiritual health.

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary. Follow her @drpamking.

About With and For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media & Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Senior Producer: Clare Wiley
• Executive Producer: Jakob Lewis
• Produced by Great Feeling Studios

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and Fuller Seminary’s School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. The podcast was made possible through the support from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.