Why did Western Europe and the US become the richest regions of the modern world? Was this powered by colonial violence, scientific ingenuity, or something else entirely? And what happened to the medieval might of China and India?

The term “great divergence” is increasingly used by historians who are bold enough to study this immense question, but who want to do it carefully, without falling into traditional East-West clichés. 

This episode marks the beginning of a five-episode series exploring the state of this research, produced by the University of Warwick’s CAGE Research Centre in collaboration with the On Humans Podcast.

In this opening episode, we meet Kenneth Pomeranz, the historian of China who coined the term "great divergence" in a field-defining book of the same name. We begin by discussing Pomeranz’s groundbreaking approach and the surprising answers that he arrived at. In the second half of the episode, we zoom out and place the rise of the West into the broader story about the history of humanity – a story Pomeranz divides into four parts, with the fifth one beginning right now.

Enjoy!

LINKS AND REFERENCES

Do you prefer reading to listening? You can find summary essays, bibliographies, and much more at our series page: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/

GREAT DIVERGENCE

The making of the modern world

This episode is part of a series, produced by Warwick University’s CAGE Research Centre in collaboration with On Humans. The series searches for explanations to why Western Europe and North America overtook China and India as the richest regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. 

1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (with Kenneth Pomeranz)

2 | Did science and the Enlightenment give Europe the edge? (Joel Mokyr)  

3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen)  

4 | What happened in the East? China, Japan, and the power of the state (Debin Ma)

5 | What about the rest of the world? Measuring the origins of the modern economy (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)

NAMES MENTIONED

Joel Mokyr | Brad DeLong | Arthur Wigley | Jan De Vries | Robert Allen | Simon Schama | Isaac Newton | Vasco da Gama | Jonathan Spence| Anthony Wrigley | Thomas Malthus | Nate Hagens | Charles Lockyer | Marshall Hodgson | Aristotle | Plato | Jared Diamond | Adam Smith | 

KEYWORDS 

Economics | History | Global Economic History | Malthusian Economics | Fossil Fuel Economics | Economics of Colonialism | Rise of the West | European Miracle | California School of Economics | Atlantic Trade | Industrial Revolution | Second Industrial Revolution | Historic living standards

INFO

Guest: Kenneth Pomeranz (University of Chicago)

Host: Ilari Mäkelä (On Humans Podcast)

Contact: [email protected]

Apologies for the slow start to 2026! Something big is coming soon. Stay tuned for the announcement next week.

Whilst waiting, you can enjoy one of my all-time favourites from the archives.

A lot of the recent episodes have mentioned the impact of bipedalism in the human story, but the remarks have hardly done justice to the depth of the matter.

Jeremy DeSilva did it justice.

Enjoy! 

ORIGINAL SHOW NOTES

Humans are odd in many ways. But perhaps the oddest of our features is our upright posture. We walk on two legs. And we are the only mammal to do so. 

So why do we walk upright? And why does it matter? 

Jeremy DeSilva is a fossil expert and a professor of paleoanthropology at Dartmouth College. He is also the author of a remarkable book, aptly titled First Steps: How Upright Walking Made Us Human

DeSilva’s treatment of the subject is sweeping: while tracing the journey of human posture, he draws remarkable links between bipedalism and many facets of the human condition, from difficult births to complex language and from lower back pains to the beauty of friendships.

In this episode, we talk about questions such as:

• What Darwin got right and wrong about the role of walking in human evolution
• When and why did we start walking upright?
• Why the common picture of human evolution is wrong - and what would be a better picture
• Why walking makes us fragile
• How our ancestors survived bone fractures - and why this is a big deal
• Why is human birth so difficult
• Why walking is so good for us: introducing the “myokines”
• What studying the human journey has taught DeSilva about our species

_________

Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program.

Visit: ⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠

_________

Names mentioned

Charles Darwin / Ian Tattersall / Donald Johanson / Mary Leakey / Sherwood Washburn / Richard Wrangham (ep 21) / Kristen Hawkes (ep 6) / Holly Dunsworth / Daniel Lieberman 

Mentioned hominin species

Sahelanthropus / Ardipithecus / Australopithecus (e.g. Lucy) / Homo habilis / Homo erectus / Homo sapiens

Imagine a group of ancient humans, crafting stone tools at the dawn of humankind. What did these creatures look like? 

To find out, we can stare at the skulls in museums or glance at reconstructions made by paleo-artists. Not a bad start. But what if we move the lens and zoom into their surroundings? What was the scientific “Garden of Eden” like? Was it a lush forest, a dry savanna, or an icy cave? And what can the answer tell us about human nature more broadly?

Denise Su is a world-leading expert on these questions. A paleoecologist at Arizona State University’s Institute of Human Origins, she uses ever-more imaginative ways to get a glimpse into the nature and the weather that set the stage for the human story.

In this episode, we focus on two kinds of “changes” in the ecology of human evolution: both the actual climate change that drummed the beat of human origins, and the theoretical changes in the views of scientists thinking about these topics. Indeed, this episode digs deep into one of the hotly contested questions about the reasons why humans evolved: "the savanna hypothesis".

According to the savanna hypothesis, our naked, upright species evolved because African forests were shrinking and dry savannas emerged instead. Other apes stayed in the shrinking forests, but our brave ancestors took the shot, conquering the vast flatlands. As they did so, they started standing upright to better walk on the savanna and lost their fur, to sweat away the heat of the scorching sun.

I have told versions of this story on the show, and so have many senior guests. Yet even a brief Google search will give you plenty of critics telling that the savanna hypothesis is nothing but a convenient myth.⁠ Articles by Denise Su⁠ are often included in the evidence. So what’s going on? Listen to the episode to find out!

TIMELINE 

• Last common ancestor with humans and chimpanzees: 6–7 million years ago 
• Ardipithecus ramidus: 4.5–4.2 million years ago 
• Australopithecus anamnesis: 4.2–3.8 million years ago 
• Austrolopithecus afarensis (e.g. Lucy): 3.9–2.9 million years ago 
• Australopithecus deyiremeda: 3.5–3.3 million years ago 
• Earliest Homo: about 2.8 million years ago 
• Homo erectus: 1.9 million–112,000 years ago 
• Homo sapiens: 300,000 years ago till present 

FACT-CHECKING

No factual errors have been detected so far. However, timing estimates and species names are still debated. Furthermore, the “hours” in the metaphorical clock can shift a fair amount based on the “midnight”: our last common ancestor with chimpanzees lived 6 to 7 million years ago, with some estimates pushing the date as far as 8 million. In the episode, our clock is tuned to 6 million years ago. 

If you see an error, you can get in touch using the form below.

LINKS

Support: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Articles & newsletter: OnHumans/Substack.com

Get in touch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠⁠⁠⁠

KEY WORDS

anthropology | archaeology | paleontology | human origins | human behavioural ecology | savanna hypothesis | paleolithic | paleoecology | hominid fossils | carbon isotopes C3/C4 | human evolution | human biology | climate change | human futures

What was life like before farming? Was it nasty, brutish, and short? Or did our hunter-gatherer ancestors live lives that were relatively free, affluent, and ecologically stable?

In the lack of a time machine, many anthropologists have sought answers from studying the few hunter-gatherer communities that still exist today. In 1966, several leading names in the field were invited to present their results at a symposium at the University of Chicago. This “Man the Hunter” conference became a landmark event, but what exactly were the results? And have they stood the test of time? 

To mark the 60th anniversary of the "Man the Hunter" symposium, On Humans is glad to share the first-ever long-form podcast with the legendary anthropologist and co-organiser of the symposium, Richard B. Lee. We discuss the legacy of the conference, Lee’s own experiences living with hunter-gatherers in the Kalahari, and his reflections on what we do and do not know about the ancient lifeways of hunter-gatherers. As we do so, we also discuss various controversies and mysteries, from women's roles to Native American farmers, and from archaeological black holes toThe Dawn of Everything.

Enjoy!

FACT-CHECKING

No factual errors have been detected so far. If you see an error, you can get in touch using the form below.

LINKS

Support: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get in touch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠⁠⁠

MENTIONS

The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race (Jared Diamond) https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race-12157

The Original Affluent Society (Marshall Sahlins) https://www.uvm.edu/~jdericks/EE/Sahlins-Original_Affluent_Society.pdf

For my previous coverage on “woman the hunter” controversies, see “Is Man the Hunter Dead” and my interviews with Cara Ocobock and Katie Starkweather, all available here: ⁠https://onhumans.substack.com/p/is-man-the-hunter-dead⁠

For Richard Lee's own comments on the controversy, see his interview with Vivek Venkataraman ⁠https://osf.io/x7ar3_v1/

Names: Richard B. Lee | James Suzman | Marshall Sahlins | David Graeber | David Wengrow | Jared Diamond | Sarah Blaffer Hrdy | Jerome Lewis | Colin Turnbull | James Woodburn | Eleanor Leacock | Louis Henry Morgan | Karl Marx | George Armelagos | Irvin DeVore | Sherwood Washburn | Jay Desmond Clark | Harriet Rosenberg | Lawrence K. Marshall | Elizabeth Marshall | John Marshall | Greta Thunberg | Vivek Venkataraman

Ethnic groups: San | Ju/’hoansi | !Kung | Khoisan | Khoikhoi | “Bushmen” | “Hottentots” | First Nations | Tlingit | Haida | Inuit | Australian Aboriginal peoples | Bayaka| Batek | Huron-Wendat | Iroquois | Six Nations | Plains Indians | Hopi | Navajo | Cherokee

KEY WORDS

anthropology | archaeology | ethnography | human origins | human behavioural ecology | hunter-gatherers | paleolithic | neolithic transition | original affluent society | Kalahari Desert | Botswana | Namibia | paleogenetics | gathering vs hunting | gender roles | women hunting | egalitarianism | origins of hierarchy | surplus | food storage | salmon economies | Northwest Coast hunter-gatherers | archaeology of early farmers | bioarchaeology | stature/height decline | teeth health | disease burden | zoonoses | cross-species infection | Neolithic fertility increase | population pressure and “intensification” | chiefdoms | states | empires | ecology vs culture debate | materialist vs idealist | concentration–dispersion | colonialism | exploitation | land rights | climate change | human futures

The world is full of religions, but none as timeless as shamanism. And whilst many modern religions have shed their shamanic skins, the shaman is rarely as far away as we have been told.

Or so argues anthropologist Manvir Singh in his book, Shamanism: The Timeless Religion.  

Singh’s work is fascinating in its capacity to link the exocit with the familiar, showing how rainforest rituals are not so far removed from urban modernity as we might think.

Today, I will have the rare chance to enjoy Singh's insights together with you, as a listener. The hard work will be done by Kensy Cooperider, the host of the Many Minds Podcast.

Many Minds is one of my own go-to shows and has a lot to recommend for it. Just like On Humans, it breaks down complex scientific concepts about humanity into easy-to-follow yet in-depth conversations. Yet unlike On Humans, it has insanely well-referenced show notes! Just check this one out.

Kensy and I had a beachside chat this November and decided it would be good to introduce ourselves to each other's audiences. So here we go!

LINKS

Many Minds: https://disi.org/manyminds/

Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute: https://disi.org/

Episode page: https://disi.org/the-shaman-with-a-thousand-faces/

Manvir Singh: https://www.manvir.org/

KEYWORDS

Anthropology | Psychology | Religion | Cross-cultural study | Abrahamic religions | Neo-shamanism | Human universals |

Happy 2026! On Humans has typically marked the coming of January by revisiting the previous year’s most popular episode. This time, the New Year special packs the five-hour-long "Origins of Humankind" series into one fast-paced dive through deep time.

By mixing highlights from the original interviews with fresh narration, this episode offers a captivating journey through many of the great topics around human origins, such as:

• Who were the first primates
• The role of fruits, snakes, and predators
• The human solution to danger
• How to grow a human brain?
• What did our ancestors eat?
• Effects of our upright posture
• Origins of music & language
• How Homo sapiens took over the world

Enjoy!

LINKS

For the original five-hour experience, see: OnHumans.Substack.com/Origins

For a shorter series on ancient DNA: see OnHumans.Substack.com/DNA

Support: Patreon.com/OnHumans

The series was produced together with CARTA (UCSD & Salk Institute). For past recordings of CARTA symposia on human origins, see: Carta.Anthropogeny.org/Symposia

KEYWORDS

Human evolution | Human origins | Science | Biology | Paleoanthropology | Anthropology | Archaeology | Fossils | aDNA | History of life | Life history | Dinosaurs | Primates | Apes | Hominins | Homo sapiens | Evolution of language | Evolution of music | Brain evolution | Paleoneurology | Neanderthals | Denisovans | Neolithic Revolution | Spread of agriculture | Human destiny

“The podcast is great, but one thing hasn’t been covered yet: humour. It’s an essential part of our human condition, and would certainly be worth an episode.”

This listener feedback was easy to agree with.

From standup comedy to nervous laughter, our lives are filled with chuckles and giggles.

Why?

Why do adults laugh at witty jokes whilst children laugh at the simple pleasures of peek-a-boo? And why should any of us laugh in the first place?

My guest is Mira Magdalena Sickinger. a poet and a philosopher of humour from the University of Vienna.

We cover a lot in the discussion: from the social roles of humour, to the politics of joking, and the therapeutic effects of a humorous attitude. In the course of the conversation, we cover the views of many intellectual giants, from Sigmund Freud to Immanuel Kant — and while the conversation includes a handful of silly jokes (be warned), it ends with a deeper reflection on how humour can serve as a window into the human condition itself. 

FACT CHECKING

No errors have been found as of now. If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.

LINKS

Articles and essays: ⁠⁠⁠⁠OnHumans.Substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠

Support: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠⁠⁠

Contact Form: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠⁠⁠

MENTIONS

Simon Critchley | Ted Cohen | Robin Dunbar | Ágnes Heller | John Morreal | Immanuel Kant | Thomas Wilk & Steven Gimbel | V S Ramachandran | Sigmund Freud | Janet Bing⁠ &  ⁠Joanne Scheibman ⁠| Thomas Nagel | Aristotle | Thomas Aquinas | John Dewey | Robin Tyler

KEYWORDS

Philosophy | Psychology |Anthropology | Incongruence theory | Relief theory | Superiority theory | Play theory | Humor | Blended spaces | Stasi & communism jokes in East Germany | Feminist & queer humor | Jokes | Absurdity | Irony | Existentialism | Meaning of life |

We are a movable species. In less than 50 thousand years, Homo sapiens has penetrated practically all corners of the earth.

This is an episode about those epic migrations, with a focus on the two furthest edges of the human migratory map: the Americas in the West and the Polynesian islands in the East. In the end, we discuss emerging evidence that those branches met each other -- work coming directly out of the work of my guest, Andrés Moreno-Estrada.

Enjoy!

DECODING OUR STORY

This is episode 3 in the "⁠Decoding Our Story⁠" mini-series, recorded live at the Salk Institute's CARTA symposium on ancient DNA. The other episodes are:

"The Neanderthal Mirror: Latest Findings About the Lines Between Us" ~ David Gokhman

"Beyond Race: A New Outlook on the Shape of Humanity" ~ Diyendo Massilani

FACT CHECKING

No errors have been found as of now. If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.

LINKS

Articles and essays: ⁠⁠⁠OnHumans.Substack.com⁠⁠⁠

Support: ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠⁠

Contact Form: ⁠⁠⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠⁠

⁠⁠CARTA symposium⁠⁠

The Moreno lab⁠⁠

KEYWORDS

Human population history | Human origins | Anthropogeny | Anthropology | Ancient Migration | Out of Africa | Homo sapiens | Ancient DNA | Comparative genetics | Austronesian expansion | Taiwan | Admixture | Archaeogenetics | Archaeology | Polynesia | Easter Islands | Rapa Nui | Hawai'i | Aotearoa New Zealand | Tonga Fiji | Native American origins | Latino genetics | Latinx genetics | Hispanic genetics | Indegenous genetics |

European thinkers once divided humanity into distinct "races". The idea stuck, even if the science moved on. The shape of humanity, it turned out, is far messier than the old race theorists ever imagined.

This much is well known.

Still , genetics does study different human "populations". Biological differences between these populations are reported every day. So have we simply changed words? Has anything really changed?

Yes, everything has changed.

To explain why, I'm glad to have Diyendo Massilani on the show.

Trained in France and Gabon, Massilani runs a lab at the Yale School of Medicine, where he studies ancient DNA and human adaptations. This fall, his lab has produced one of the most interesting analysis of human biodiversity that I have ever seen. I'm proud to feature it on the podcast before publication.

Our conversation begins from the counter-intuitive implications of the Out of Africa theory, and its significance for ideas about race. We then discuss Massilani's own analysis about how the level of genetic differences between modern-day humans.

As always, we finish with my guest's reflections on humanity.

DECODING OUR STORY

This is episode 2 in the "Decoding Our Story" mini-series, recorded live at the Salk Institute's CARTA symposium on ancient DNA. The other episodes are:

"The Neanderthal Mirror: Latest Findings About the Lines Between Us" ~ David Gokhman (published)

"Restless Humanity: The Epic Migrations Into America, Polynesia, and... Beyond?" ~ Andrés Moreno-Estrada (5th of Dec)

FACT CHECKING

No errors have been found as of now. If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.

LINKS

Articles and essays: ⁠⁠OnHumans.Substack.com⁠⁠

Support: ⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠

Contact Form: ⁠⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠

⁠CARTA symposium⁠

The Massilani lab⁠

KEYWORDS

Human evolution | Human origins | Anthropogeny | Anthropology | Paleoanthropology | Genetics | Homo sapiens | Ancient DNA | Comparative genetics | Human biodiversity | Admixture | Archaeogenetics | Archaeology | Mbuti | Papuans | Neanderthals

Genetics is rewriting the human story. This week, On Humans takes you behind the scenes of this rapidly evolving frontier via three live-recordings, captured at the Salk Institute's CARTA symposium on ancient DNA.

The first episode explores the differences between us and the Neanderthals.

For centuries, we tried to understand Neanderthals through stones and bones alone. Now genetics is offering a new tool, allowing researchers to see how ancient bodies and brains developed. In this opening episode, David Gokhman explains what these new tools are revealing about us, Neanderthals, and the lines between us.

UP NEXT

"Beyond Race: New Surprises About the Shape of Humanity" ~ Monday Dec 1st with Diyendo Massilani

"Restless Humanity: The Epic Migrations Into America, Polynesia, and... Beyond?" ~ Friday Dec 5th with Andrés Moreno-Estrada

FACT CHECKING

No errors have been found as of now. If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.

LINKS

Articles and essays: ⁠OnHumans.Substack.com⁠

Support: ⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠

Contact Form: ⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8

CARTA symposium

Gokhman's lab

KEYWORDS

Human evolution | Human origins | Anthropogeny | Anthropology | Archaeogenetics | Archaeology | Paleoanthropology | Genus Homo | Neanderthals | Ancient DNA | Comparative genetics | Archaeogenetics | Language evolution | Origins of language | Symbolic culture | Extinction | Species concept

The science of human origins keeps producing new theories. But are we any closer to telling a true story of human origins? Or are we simply drowning in data? 

Earlier this November, the chair of UCSD’s Department of Anthropology invited me to explore this question in a campus talk. My optimistic claim was that underneath many of the field’s important debates, a powerful story has been emerging. At its core, this is a story about calories, cooperation, and climate change. And at the centre of it are not men hunting or women gathering.

At the centre of it are children playing and learning.

Here is the recording from the talk .

Check out also my Substack essay inspired by this talk, with many of the pictures and graphs from the slides!

PS. I was in San Diego to attend a CARTA symposium on the role of genetics in the study of human origins. I managed to record three episodes behind the scenes.

Live recordings coming soon!

FACT CHECKING

No major errors have been found yet. As a small correction, the mention about macaques vs giraffe's should have been about neurons in the cortex, not total neurons in the brain. The main idea doesn't change.

If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.

LINKS

Articles and essays: OnHumans.Substack.com

Support: Patreon.com/OnHumans

Contact Form: https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8

KEYWORDS

Human evolution | Human origins | Anthropogeny | Anthropology | Paleoanthropology | Genus Homo | Australopithecins | Human brain | Comparative neuroanatomy | Human tool cultures | Alloparenting | Cooking hypothesis | Expensive tissue hypothesis | Life history | r vs K strategies |