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Hollywood icon Robert Wagner (known as “RJ”) joins host Kevin Goetz for an intimate, wide-ranging conversation about his life and career. From caddying alongside Clark Gable and Cary Grant to starring opposite Spencer Tracy. From the golden age of the studio system to reinventing himself as a television star, Wagner reflects on the journey that made him one of Hollywood's most enduring figures, later delighting a new generation of audiences as Number 2 in the Austin Powers films. He also reflects on his personal life, including his marriage to actress Natalie Wood, and the family and friendships that shaped him, including his wife of nearly four decades, Jill St. John.

Caddying for Legends (06:21): Wagner recounts his early days as a caddy, where he found himself watching Clark Gable, Cary Grant, Fred Astaire, and Randolph Scott walk down the fairway.

Marilyn Monroe and Screen Tests (09:22): As Fox's go-to "screen test guy," Wagner did Marilyn Monroe's first two tests. His own breakthrough came when Zanuck cast him as a shell-shocked soldier in With a Song in My Heart.

Spencer Tracy as Mentor (14:49): Working alongside Tracy in Broken Lance, Wagner earned the older actor's respect and friendship.

Advice from Cary Grant (18:07): When Wagner was preparing to play a thief for It Takes a Thief, he went to Grant for guidance. Years later he would become a television icon again opposite Stefanie Powers in Hart to Hart.

Lou Wasserman and the Move to Television 18:41): At a time when television was considered beneath film stars, Lew Wasserman called Wagner in and told him, "I think this is your medium."

Barbara Stanwyck and Bette Davis (22:43): Wagner speaks warmly about his three-year relationship with Barbara Stanwyck. He also recalls reaching out to Bette Davis after she publicly praised his work.

John Ford Knocks Him Down…Literally (26:39): On the set of a John Ford film, Wagner followed a script direction and glanced toward where music was playing. Ford stopped the scene, questioned him, and knocked him down.

Pink Panther (29:21): When the studio system collapsed, and Fox dropped its contract players, Wagner moved to Rome and worked on The Pink Panther, his all-time favorite film.

Jill St. John, Family, and Friends (36:16): In one of the episode's most moving moments, Wagner reflects on the profound role friends and family have played in his life.

Few careers in Hollywood history span as many eras, genres, or legends as Robert Wagner's, and fewer still have been lived with such grace. 

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Robert Wagner
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Robert Wagner:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wagner
IMDB: https://ww

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes Bob Cooper, the influential executive who helped transform HBO from a movie channel into a creative powerhouse, producing landmark films like The Josephine Baker Story and Barbarians at the Gate, and who later shaped the theatrical landscape as President of Tri-Star Pictures and head of development and production at Dreamworks, where he championed American Beauty. From prosecuting organized crime in Montreal to greenlighting American Beauty, Bob's career is a lesson in reinvention and risk-taking.

Finding Your "And" (00:28): Bob traces his winding path from studying acting at the Pasadena Playhouse to law school to founding Canada's first storefront legal aid office to prosecuting organized crime to hosting a national investigative news program.

The Birth of HBO Originals (14:47): When his early Canadian film production company collapsed, Bob flew to New York in desperation and pitched HBO on making original movies, starting with The Terry Fox Story.

No Vanilla Allowed (19:34): Bob developed a strategy of bold, true-story-based films that couldn't be seen in theaters or on network TV. The Josephine Baker Story became the blueprint.

The Projects Nobody Wanted (22:29): Bob consistently bet on the projects others passed on, championing films like And the Band Played On, Barbarians at the Gate, and The Positively True Adventures of the Alleged Texas Cheerleader-Murdering Mom.

Tristar and Jerry Maguire (28:26): Bob shares how he helped crack the marketing code on Jerry Maguire by identifying its core theme as "a comedy about not selling out.”

Dreamworks and American Beauty (37:22): At Dreamworks, Bob got Steven Spielberg to read a script that was almost impossible to pitch – American Beauty. Spielberg read it overnight, called a meeting the next morning, and immediately declared it "an Academy movie."

Meet the Parents and the Spielberg Phone Call (41:25): Bob spotted an unmade script at Universal called Meet the Parents and brought it to Spielberg, who simply picked up the phone and called Edgar Bronfman on the spot to acquire it.

What Makes Stories Universal (47:15): Bob shares his deepest creative philosophy: that pain is the engine of every great story, including comedy. He closes with a moving account of his current stage project about Bobby Kennedy.

Bob Cooper's career is a reminder that unconventional paths often lead to the most enduring work. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Bob Cooper
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer & Editor: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don’t Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Academy Award-winning producer Charles "Chuck" Roven, the co-founder of Atlas Entertainment, one of Hollywood’s most enduring and successful production companies. Across four decades, Chuck has built a producing career defined by creative ambition and commercial scale — including five of the 100 top-grossing films of all time.  From his early struggles to winning the Academy Award for Oppenheimer, Chuck’s journey reveals how smart dealmaking, creative instinct, and relentless tenacity shaped one of the most impressive producing legacies in modern Hollywood.

From Czechoslovakia to Cinderella Homes (03:22): Chuck's father escaped post-war Europe and built a real estate empire in Los Angeles, teaching Chuck the principle of horizontal business.

Dawn Steel (08:16): Chuck recounts meeting his first wife, Dawn Steel, who revolutionized her way into Hollywood through merchandising hits like Gucci toilet paper before becoming Paramount's president of production.

The 90-Day Escrow Deal (20:48): Instead of optioning Dick Tracy, Chuck negotiated a 90-day escrow deal to "check the title," wrote a script, and sold it to Universal.

12 Monkeys and the Art of International Financing (30:34): Chuck explains how he assembled a consortium of international partners to co-finance Terry Gilliam's $32 million film.

The Phone Call That Led to Batman Begins (36:30): After producing the hit Scooby-Doo, Chuck received a call inviting him to partner with an up-and-coming director named Christopher Nolan on a little project called Batman Begins.

Bringing Oppenheimer to Nolan and Winning the Oscar (37:29): Chuck recounts how he brought the Oppenheimer project to Christopher Nolan. The film earned 11 Oscar nominations and Chuck's first Best Picture win.

Making Mercy (42:24): Chuck describes developing the "Screen Life" concept into the thriller Mercy, featuring an AI judge with access to every camera and computer.

The Value of Test Screenings (46:34): Despite working with directors like Christopher Nolan who prefer friends-and-family screenings, Chuck explains why recruited audience testing remains invaluable.

Chuck Roven's producing philosophy combines his father's business lessons with an unwavering respect for the audience, proving that hunger, passion, and smart dealmaking can result in four decades of Hollywood success.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Charles “Chuck” Roven
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Chuck Roven:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Roven
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0746273/

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes Gail Berman, one of Hollywood's most versatile executives. From producing Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat on Broadway at 22 to becoming the first woman to lead both a major TV network (Fox Entertainment) and a film studio (Paramount Pictures), she has consistently rewritten what creative leadership looks like in Hollywood.

From Brooklyn to Broadway: The Joseph Origin Story (04:03): At just 22 years old, Gail and her partner, Susan Rose, produced Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. They brought the show to Broadway, earning seven Tony nominations.

The Red Dress and the Palisades Fires (15:52): Gail's Tony Awards dress remains in storage due to insurance settlements following the recent Palisades fires that damaged her home.

Starting Over in Television (19:30): Gail shares how she received a message on her answering machine about a new venture at HBO. Despite knowing nothing about television, she took the job at the comedy channel that would become Comedy Central.

The Buffy Breakthrough at Sandollar (23:56): After reading the Buffy the Vampire Slayer film script, Gail saw it as a perfect TV show. While serving as President of Sandollar, she partnered with Sandy Gallin and Dolly Parton to develop and executive produce the show—launching a cultural phenomenon.

The Austin Butler Screen Test for Elvis (28:26): When Baz Luhrmann showed four screen tests, Austin Butler's was last. The film would earn Gail an Academy Award nomination for Best Picture.

From Regency Television to Running Fox (33:49): After producing Malcolm in the Middle, Roswell, and The Bernie Mac Show at Regency Television, Gail received a call from Peter Chernin asking her to run Fox Entertainment.

The Paramount Years (40:28): Hired to run Paramount Pictures, MTV Films, and Nickelodeon Films, Gail faced some resistance. She secured the Star Trek film rights back from CBS with just 18 months to put it into production, hiring J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof to work fast.

Black Swan: The Musical (50:43): After leaving Paramount, Gail launched The Jackal Group. She's now producing the musical adaptation of Black Swan with Darren Aronofsky, Kevin McCollum, and Scott Franklin.

Gail Berman's story shows how versatility and the willingness to start over can create a remarkable career. From Broadway to broadcast television to film, she's proven that embracing new challenges leads to extraordinary places.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Gail Berman
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Gail Berman:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Berman
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0075762/
LinkedIn:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes acclaimed writer Matthew Specktor and his father, legendary CAA agent Fred Specktor. Matthew's latest book, The Golden Hour: A Story of Family and Power in Hollywood, captures the underbelly of Los Angeles through the lens of three generations embedded in the motion picture industry. Together, Matthew and Fred explore the industry that shaped American culture.

The College Course with James Baldwin (9:47): Matthew describes being chosen by lottery to study with James Baldwin at Mount Holyoke. Baldwin taught Henry James and told his students, "For it to have happened or for it to be beautiful is not enough."

Lew Wasserman's Assistant at 19 (18:26): Fred recalls working for Lew Wasserman at MCA, the most powerful man in the industry.

The Birth of the Modern Motion Picture Industry (22:43): Matthew explains how his family lived through the entire transformation of Hollywood, recalling Lew Wasserman seeing the line of people waiting to see Jaws in a Texas rainstorm and pioneering the wide release.

"No More Middle-Class Movies" (30:14): Matthew recounts a Fox 2000 corporate retreat where Bill Mechanic announced the studio would only make films over $100 million or under $10 million – nothing in between.

The Gene Hackman Call That Won an Oscar (34:19): Fred describes how Gene Hackman passed on Unforgiven due to violence concerns. Fred gave Clint Eastwood Gene's phone number, and Clint convinced Gene to take the role that won Gene the Academy Award.

Letting the Artist See What Others Don't (37:37): Fred's philosophy: "I believe every one of my clients belongs at the top of the list." He shares thoughts on his clients, including Morgan Freeman, Helen Mirren, Taylor Hackford, and Danny DeVito.

This conversation reveals how great writers mine their personal history to illuminate an industry, and how great agents operate, not as cartoon hustlers but as believers in fairness and quality. Matthew and Fred Specktor show us that Hollywood's golden hour wasn't just about glamour; it was about families, power, and the American dream colliding in ways both beautiful and devastating.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Matthew and Fred Specktor
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Matthew and Fred Specktor:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Specktor
The Golden Hour: A Story of Family and Power in Hollywood: https://a.co/d/8Qy91qa
Website: https://matthewspecktor.com/

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes Jon M. Chu on the opening day of Wicked: For Good, a film that generated exciting audience reactions during test screenings. From his family's Chinese restaurant in Silicon Valley to directing one of the most anticipated musicals in Hollywood history, Jon's journey reveals how generosity, gratitude, and respect for storytelling shape extraordinary movies.

The Most Explosive Audience Reaction Ever (00:29): Kevin describes how Wicked test screenings produced reactions unlike anything he'd experienced. 

The Risk of Adapting a Broadway Phenomenon (03:57):After 20 years of failed attempts by other directors, Jon wasn't sure he should take on Wicked. But Elphaba's lyrics, "something has changed within me," convinced him to take on the project.

The House of Stories: A Silicon Valley Restaurant (18:40):Jon's family restaurant, Chef Chu's (now 56 years strong), became "a house of stories,” an intersection where customers shared beginnings and endings while Silicon Valley engineers dreamed of the future.

The Spielberg Meeting and the Costume Chest Pitch (29:52): After creating a musical short, Steven Spielberg saw it and invited Jon to Dreamworks. Jon describes the hilarious pitch meeting that included a trunk full of costumes.

Finding Cynthia and Ariana: No Chemistry Read Required (41:15):When casting Wicked, Jon was guided by the saying, "It's about the girls, stupid." Cynthia Erivo brought vulnerability and dignity to Elphaba, while Ariana Grande proved to be the perfect choice.

The Fiyero Tree Nest: What Cinema Is All About (46:10): Jon breaks down every intentional choice in the intimate scene between Elphaba and Fiyero.

What's Next: From Dr. Seuss to Britney Spears (52:59): Jon's upcoming slate includes Oh, The Places You'll Go!,Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, the Britney Spears biopic based on The Woman in Me, and a live-action Hot Wheels movie.

The Sacred Space of Movie Theaters (56:11): Jon delivers a passionate defense of theatrical exhibition, "You have to put your phone down, sit in the dark with strangers and live through someone else's eyes for two hours.”

Jon Chu shows how great art can come from a foundation of gratitude, generosity received and given forward, and unwavering commitment to stories that challenge us to become who we want to be. 

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Jon Chu
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Jon M. Chu:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_M._Chu
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0160840/
Instagram:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with legendary producer and entertainment executive Suzanne de Passe. From championing the Jackson 5 early in their career to producing Emmy Award–winning miniseries like Lonesome Dove, Suzanne’s career is defined by vision, talent recognition, and breaking barriers in Hollywood.

An Eclectic, Wonderful Childhood (02:16) Suzanne describes growing up in Harlem, attending the progressive private school New Lincoln, and spending summers in Martha's Vineyard.

Suzanne’s Superpower (12:46) Suzanne talks about her greatest talent: recognizing the talent of others and knowing what to do with it.

The Meeting That Changed Everything (16:22) Through her friendship with Cindy Birdsong of The Supremes, Suzanne met Berry Gordy  in 1967, a moment that changed her life forever.

"One Day, That's Gonna Be Me" (21:19) Standing under the Essex House sign, watching Diana Ross depart in one limo, and the other Supremes in another, Suzanne had a realization: she wanted to be a part of that world.

Championing The Jackson 5 (31:39) When Bobby Taylor invited her to hear a young group of brothers sing four songs a cappella, “the hair on the back of my neck flew up,” Suzanne recalls. Despite Berry Gordy’s initial resistance to signing another kid act, her relentless advocacy is what finally got the Jackson 5 their Motown audition.

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction (38:04) In 2024, Suzanne was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with the Ahmet Ertegun Award, the fifth woman and the first solo living female recipient among male legends.

Lonesome Dove (40:28) After optioning Larry McMurtry's unpublished novel for $50,000, Swifty Lazar called with news: it had won the Pulitzer Prize. The resulting CBS miniseries was nominated for 19 Emmys, won 11, and received a Golden Globe and a Peabody Award.

Immortal Studio: The Next Chapter (51:17) Suzanne has launched the production company Immortal Studio with partners Madison Jones, Cory Martin, and investor Yang Ben Wang. Focused on premium television, the company already has full seasons scripted and is built to be nimble, artist-friendly, and protective of creative vision — avoiding the industry’s usual “fingerprinting process,” where too many people try to leave their mark.

Suzanne de Passe demonstrates that recognizing talent, whether in five kids singing a capella or an unpublished western novel, combined with persistence and vision, can build an entertainment legacy that spans decades.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Suzanne de Passe
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Suzanne de Passe:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_de_Passe
IMDB:https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0210867/
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Academy Award-nominated writer, actor, director, and producer Nia Vardalos. From her one-woman show in a tiny Los Angeles theater to creating one of the highest-grossing independent movies of all time, Nia's path shows what happens when you refuse to give up on your story.

The Topline She Carried for 24 Years (01:36) Kevin reveals that Nia has carried the original test screening results from My Big Fat Greek Wedding in her wallet for over 24 years. Kevin shares why the film isn’t allowed to be referenced at his company, not because it was bad, but because it was such an unprecedented outlier that had no business doing what it did, except that it was "so damn good."

Second City Training and Seizing the Moment (04:40) Nia traces her journey from Shakespearean training at Ryerson to discovering improv.

From Rejection to the Stage (19:15) When Nia couldn't get her screenplay read, she rented a small theater and performed her story for audiences who kept coming back. She shares how she placed a $500 ad in the Los Angeles Times that caught Rita Wilson's attention.

Rita Wilson, Tom Hanks, and Unwavering Loyalty (26:51) When Rita Wilson saw the show, her first words were "I love you." When she said, "this should be a movie," Nia instantly handed her the screenplay so fast that “her hair flew back." The result: $241.4 million domestic, $368.7 million worldwide.

14 Hours Notice to Motherhood (35:53) After years of fertility treatments, Nia received just 14 hours notice to adopt a daughter from foster care. She talks about the trials, and the joys of motherhood and adoption.

Academy Award Nomination (39:35) On the morning of her Best Original Screenplay nomination, Nia was driving through rain to a fertility clinic when her best friend called first with the news.

Returning to Theater (48:38) Nia returned to her theatrical roots with Tiny Beautiful Things, adapted from Cheryl Strayed's book and directed by Hamilton's Thomas Kail. The play became a New York Times Critics' Pick and was licensed in 250+ productions worldwide. She recently performed it in Greek in Athens at a 1,500-seat theater.

Nia Vardalos proves that Hollywood's greatest success stories don't always follow the expected path. Sometimes they start with a $300 theater rental and an unshakeable belief in your own voice. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Nia Vardalos
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Nia Vardalos:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Vardalos
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0889522/
Instagram:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this engaging episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews his business associate, Bob Levin, about his remarkable journey from Sears catalog copywriter to President of Worldwide Marketing at Disney, Sony Pictures, and MGM, before joining Kevin at Screen Engine in the role of President and COO. Listen in as these two industry veterans share marketing insights and discuss their upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood (Simon & Schuster, November 11th), which reveals the hidden formula behind a movie’s profitability — showing how audience understanding drives smarter decisions from greenlight to release.

Disney's Renaissance Era (09:00) Bob recounts joining Disney just as Eisner and Katzenberg were revitalizing the studio, leading marketing during 17 consecutive hits, including Down and Out in Beverly Hills, The Lion King, and Pretty Woman.

Marketing Philosophy (15:51) "Good marketing is both instinct and data," Bob explains, describing his pioneering approach of creating targeted messaging for different audience segments at Disney's animation division.

Pretty Woman & Marketing Triumphs (19:33) Bob reveals how he helped to transform Pretty Woman from a potentially dark R-rated film into a celebration of female empowerment, even suggesting the iconic title to replace the original "3000".

The Screen Engine Years (34:40) After leading marketing at three major studios, Bob joined Screen Engine, helping to build their research business, which started in Kevin's living room, into an industry powerhouse that expanded beyond film into other industries.

How to Score in Hollywood (42:48) Bob discusses their upcoming book, which examines how movies get greenlit, applying the principle that "every movie if made and marketed for the right price should make money.”

Understanding Audience Response (47:42) Levy notes that audiences aren't "wrong" when they dislike something; they're simply reacting honestly. Bob learned that viewers fundamentally seek characters with whom they can identify.

The Attention Economy (48:54) Rather than thinking in terms of being in "the movie business," Levin suggests viewing entertainment as part of "the attention economy" where respecting the audience and telling great stories remains paramount.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Levin
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Bob Levin:
Simon and Schuster:https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Bob-Levin/240343657
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-levin-843797125/
IMDB:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes film industry analyst Stephen Follows for a discussion about film profitability and its connection to data. Stephen's digital book Greenlight Signals analyzes over 10,000 films and 4 million audience responses using secondary data (existing reviews, ratings, and comments from across the internet) to discover what makes a film successful. Together, Kevin and Stephen explore the same mission from different angles: ensuring filmmakers can make money while making the movies they're passionate about.

From Film School to Data Research (2:32) Stephen shares his path from producing micro-budget features to becoming an entertainment data analyst, driven by his love of cinema and his passion for solving problems through logic and research.

The Numbers Don’t Lie (9:59) Stephen recounts the eye-opening experience of helping a producer friend with a business plan, only to discover that every similar film had lost money.

Why Experience Doesn't Equal Success (12:47) Stephen reveals his surprising research finding: there's little to no correlation between a producer's experience and their film's profitability, showing how passion can interfere with business sense.

Two Books, One Goal (22:01) Kevin and Stephen discuss their approaches to data: Kevin's How to Score in Hollywood focuses on pre-greenlight capability testing using audience data, while Stephen's Greenlight Signals uses secondary data to identify patterns across genres. Both emphasize that data guides decisions rather than dictating them.

Horror Films: Control and Atmosphere (33:50) Stephen and Kevin discuss what makes horror movies work, from declaring your genre early to shot-length and how controlling what audiences see and when they see it is essential to creating fear.

Every Movie Should Make Money (45:50) Kevin and Stephen discuss Kevin's theory that every film, if made and marketed for the right price, should be profitable.

Universal Rules Across All Genres (47:49) Stephen and Kevin identify critical commonalities of successful films: emotional authenticity, clear character wants, visible stakes, avoiding confusion, respecting established rules, and maintaining consistent tone throughout.

This episode offers invaluable insights for anyone interested in the intersection of art and commerce in Hollywood.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Stephen Follows
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Stephen Follows:
Website: https://stephenfollows.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stephenfollows/
IMDB: https://www.im

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com

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In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz explores the intersection of social media and film marketing with Troy and Mark Paul, the son and father duo behind SGG Media. Their innovative agency represents over 2,300 sports micro-influencers with a combined reach of 88 million followers, helping major studios navigate a sea change in content marketing. Once reliant on TV, radio, and outdoor advertising, studios and streamers now lean heavily into social media to connect with audiences, particularly the elusive 18-35 year old male demographic. SGG's network of passionate superfans creates authentic engagement in ways traditional advertising simply cannot.

What Makes Micro-Influencers Different (03:10) Troy explains that SGG represents everyday superfans, not celebrities. These creators have built loyal, engaged communities around their passion for sports.

The Origin Story: From NYU to Entrepreneurship (18:02) Troy shares how he identified an untapped opportunity during COVID-19: sports fans creating content with millions of impressions but no monetization strategy. His high school friend Joe Hayes, who had built a 150,000-follower account, became employee number one.

A Father's Investment and Guidance (12:38) Mark discusses putting his money where his belief was, investing $1 million of the company's total $3 million raised capital, and how he and Troy have deferred compensation for two consecutive years to reinvest in growth.

The Pizza Entrepreneur at Age 11 (25:55) Mark shares the story of Troy's first business venture: hiring runners to buy pizzas and reselling slices to lazy classmates.

Authenticity Over Celebrity (36:39) Troy contrasts traditional influencer marketing with SGG's approach: their creators have smaller but deeply loyal audiences, creating authentic engagement rather than paid celebrity endorsements that feel like "cash grabs."

Universal's Breakthrough Campaign (39:35) Troy details how Universal brilliantly marketed the Jordan Peele film Him by timing the trailer drop with the NFL Draft and having 400+ NFL accounts create organic debate and engagement.

Amplification: A New Marketing Strategy (42:32) Troy reveals SGG's most powerful tool: having hundreds of micro-influencers repost studio content simultaneously, building the studio's own social presence while reaching targeted audiences.

Troy and Mark demonstrate how understanding shifting media consumption, building authentic creator relationships, and targeting niche audiences can cut through today's marketing noise to reach a “holy grail” demographic.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Troy Paul, Mark Paul
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)

For more information about Troy and Mark Paul:

SGG Media: https://sggmedia.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troy-paul-26a06198
Instagram:

For more information about Kevin Goetz:
- Website: www.KevinGoetz360.com
- Audienceology Book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Audience-ology/Kevin-Goetz/9781982186678
- How to Score in Hollywood: https://www.amazon.com/How-Score-Hollywood-Secrets-Business/dp/198218986X/
- Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Substack: @KevinGoetz360
- LinkedIn @Kevin Goetz
- Screen Engine/ASI Website: www.ScreenEngineASI.com