Can a Poetic Pause Help us Embrace the In-Between Moments of the Season?

On this special Christmas Day episode of the Good Faith Podcast, host Curtis Chang and singer-songwriter Sandra McCracken each explore the nativity, the "space between" Christ's first coming and second coming, and how Christian faith holds grief and joy together in a world that often "does not mesh with Jesus." Featuring Madeleine L'Engle's poem "First Coming" and music from McCracken's Christmas EP I Heard the Bells (including "The Space Between"), this episode invites listeners to slow down, notice the small things, and find God's nearness in waiting and quiet wonder.

(00:03:02) Christian Response to a Troubled World

(00:04:22) Madeleine L'Engle's "First Coming"

(00:08:35) Sandra McCracken's Christmas Reflections

(00:12:14) What Is Blessing the Space Between?

(00:12:47) Songwriting and the Sacred Space Between

(00:15:10) From Christmas to New Year's: Blessing the In-Between Times

(00:17:12) Nativity, Slowness, and the Nearness of God

(00:20:01) Curtis Chang's Closing Reflections

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Madeleine L'Engle's The Ordering of Love
• Madeleine L'Engle's "First Coming"
• Luci Shaw's Accompanied by Angels: Poems of the Incarnation
• Sandra McCracken's Christmas EP I Heard the Bells
• Sandra McCracken's "The Space Between"

More From Sandra McCracken:

• Sandra McCracken's website
• Sandra's first Christmas album Sandra McCracken Christmas (2020)

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.

From C.S. Lewis to Luka Dončić: Celebrating Joy in Unexpected Places

On this Christmas-season Good Faith episode, host Curtis Chang welcomes back "founding friend" David French to showcase how he can give thanks in all circumstances even amid a depressing news cycle. Through five surprising "gratitudes" (from Dune and Luka Dončić to family healing and C.S. Lewis), the conversation offers a timely guide to cultivating Christian joy, resilience, and hope in anxious times. French shares why his hope isn't rooted in a "five-point plan," but in the character of God and the "light and high beauty" that can break through dark moments—even illustrated by a powerful story of forgiveness after a Michigan church shooting.

(00:02:22) - Living with Tension: Blessings and Challenges

(00:05:11) - Practicing Cheerfulness and Gratitude

(00:08:52) - #5: Anticipating Dune Part Three & the importance of joy and fun.

(00:18:22) - #4: Luka Doncic & appreciating greatness

(00:26:50) - Transcendence, and the Need for Beauty in dark times.

(00:27:55) - #3: Michigan Mormons' Response to Tragedy

(00:29:22) - The Power of Redemptive Acts

(00:33:35) - #2: Gratitude for his wife & granddaughter's health after medical challenges.

(00:40:32) - #1: The Enduring Comfort of C.S. Lewis

(00:49:44) - The necessity of hope and joy, especially for young people.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Trailer: Dune Part Three
• Trailer: Dune Part One
• Trailer: Dune Part Two
• Highlights: Luka Doncic
• Read/Watch: Victims raise money for Michigan Church shooter's family

• Mere Christianity
• The Last Battle
• The Great Divorce
• The Screwtape Letters
• Space Trilogy
• Till We Have Faces

More From David French:

• David French's New York Times pieces HERE
• Follow David French on Threads

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.

What Do Henry Wadsworth Longfellow and Johnny Cash Have in Common?

Singer-songwriter Sandra McCracken joins Good Faith for a short bonus episode on the Christmas songs that can hold joy and sorrow at the same time. Sandra explores the story behind "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day"—from Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's grief to its enduring promise of peace in the midst of hardship. She also reflects on the influence of Johnny Cash's version and shares what it was like recording the song with Cindy Morgan. A warm, reflective listen for anyone heading into the season with hope and heaviness.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Sandra McCracken's Christmas EP I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
• Sandra McCracken's single I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
• Johnny Cash's The Christmas Spirit album
• Johnny Cash's single I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
• Leonard Cohen's Anthem

More From Sandra McCracken:

• Sandra McCracken's website
• Sandra's first Christmas album Sandra McCracken Christmas (2020)

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.

Can We Welcome the Stranger and Uphold the Law?

How should Christians think about immigration, the border crisis, and refugees—without getting trapped in partisan talking points? In this Good Faith podcast episode, host Curtis Chang sits down with Jennie Murray, president of the National Immigration Forum, to explore a faith-informed approach to U.S. immigration policy. They explore why the U.S. immigration system is so broken and confusing, the tension between compassion and the rule of law, how immigration affects jobs, labor shortages, and the economy, all while debunking myths about crime, fentanyl, and "open borders." (02:34) - Christian first or American first? Identity and immigration (06:01) - Compassion vs rule of law? (10:36) - How the immigration system is failing (14:09) - What really drives migration (18:21) - Labor, talent, and the U.S. economy (22:12) - Who counts as "illegal" or "undocumented"? (31:27) - Law, grace, and the gospel (37:34) - Crime, fentanyl, and fear-based narratives (48:03) - What ordinary Christians can do

Episode Guide for Personal and Group Study

Download World Relief's: "Let's Talk About It" conversation cards

Partner with World Relief in walking alongside families displaced by war, disaster and persecution — give today: World Relief

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• TRAC: Immigration numbers and research
• Refugee resettlement ceilings and numbers caps: Migration Policy Institute
• A Turning Point for the Unauthorized Immigrant Population in the United States
• Gallup Polling: Surge in U.S. Concern About Immigration Has Abated
• Pew Research Research: Majority of Americans to say immigrants strengthen the U.S.
• Pew Research: U.S. Unauthorized Immigrant Total Dips to Lowest Level in a Decade
• Lifeway/World Relief Research Study: Evangelical Views on Immigration Study
• Pew Research: Support for Legal Status for Immigrants Illegally Ariving as Children
• Bill Summary: Dream Act of 2025
• CATO Institute: 72% Believe Immigrants Enter the U.S. for Jobs & to Improve Their Lives

Referenced Scripture:

• Leviticus 19:34 (ESV) - The foreigner residing among you
• Matthew 25:35-36 (ESV) - Treatment of the stranger

International Comparison Stories:

• Reuters, Nov 2022: Canada's immigration targets to fill workforce gaps/support economic growth
• DW News, June 2023: Germany aims to make it easier for non-nationals to work there
• The Guardian, April 2023): Australia targets skilled migrants to fill critical job vacancies
• BBC News, Dec 2023): "The UK government is responding to workforce shortages by expanding visa opportunities for foreign workers

More From Jennie Murray and National Immigration Forum:

• More about Jennie Murray
• Learn more about National Immigration Forum
• Engage with Resources from National Immigration Forum

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.

Christianity Isn't a Nation and The Church Isn't a National Movement

Host Curtis Chang sits down with N.T. Wright to explore the explosive themes of Ephesians, including what the Bible really says about the mission of the church—not as a lifeboat escaping to heaven, but a "small working model of new creation"—a multiethnic, multicultural community that stands against the powers and principalities of our age through truth, unity, and love. Wright discusses the church's mission in a divided world, and the rise of Christian nationalism. They address modern challenges such as misunderstandings of spiritual warfare, the communal nature of the armor of God, why the "belt of truth" matters today, and how Ephesians calls the church to resist counterfeit visions of power.

(06:12) - Has NT Wright changed his mind about the Biblical truths?

(12:15) - What is Wright's "small working model of new creation"?

(16:15) - The new community of Jesus Christ

(22:51) - The problem of Christian nationalism

(28:16) - The Challenge of Christian Multiculturalism

(29:39) - The Church's Role in Spiritual Warfare

(36:56) - Is the Armor of God a communal thing?

(43:05) - The biblical view of men and women is not antiquated

(49:19) - A final word of encouragement from Ephesians

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• N.T. Wright's The Vision of Ephesians: The Task of the Church and the Glory of God
• N.T. Wright's forthcoming God's Homecoming: The Forgotten Promise of Future Renewal
• Lecture: How Paul Invented Christian Theology (N.T. Wright lecture)
• What are the Five Elements of Christian Nationalism?
• Learn more: Desmond Tutu and the triumph against Apartheid
• Watch: How Artistotle and the Greek philosophers influenced the idea of a soul (video)
• Read: How a Man Named Lesslie Changed the Way I Think

Scriptural Thoughts on Rest:

• Genesis 1-2 (ESV) - Male & female relationships and creation theology
• Ephesians 1:1-14 (ESV) - Revealing who Jesus is to the world
• Ephesians 2:10 (ESV) - Humankind's purpose
• Ephesians 6:10-20 (ESV) - The full armor of God
• 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (ESV) -The guarantee of the resurrection
• Revelation 21-22 (ESV) - Vision of new creation

More From N.T. Wright:

• N.T. Wright Online
• N.T. Wright's Speaking engagements
• N.T. wright's books (Amazon)

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.

Can Sabbath Rest Be a Circuit Breaker for Idolatry?

Host Curtis Chang and Good Faith podcast regular Andy Crouch explore how practicing true Sabbath rest can help Christians break free from burnout, technology overload, and the constant pressure to produce. Andy explains the biblical vision of Sabbath, the difference between rest and leisure, and why so many people feel enslaved to email, phones, and digital noise. They offer practical tools for burnout recovery, Sabbath rest practices, and Christian digital detox, helping listeners rediscover rhythms of rest, contemplation, and spiritual formation. If you're searching for guidance on how to practice Sabbath, how to disconnect from technology, or how to recover from burnout as a Christian, this conversation with Andy Crouch provides a hopeful path to real rest.

(02:24) - The Value of Rest Modeled in Creation

(13:04) - The Cycle of Rest, Contemplation, & Creation in Modern Work

(21:31) - Is Ceasing Labor Different Than Resting From It?

(28:49) - Breaking Free from the Labor Involved in Leisure

(32:18) - True Rest Requires Spiritual Practices

(37:44) - How Can We Rediscovering Sabbath Rest Together?

Drawing from a previous conversation with Andy Crouch, this episode examines how Sabbath rest revitalizes the inner life.

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Abraham Joshua Heschel's The Sabbath: It's Meaning for Modern Man
• Andy Crouch's The Tech-Wise Family: Everyday Steps for Putting Technology in Its Proper Place
• David Foster Wallace's A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again

Scriptural Thoughts on Rest:

• Genesis 1–3 (ESV) - Genesis and the Creation Story
• Exodus 20:8-11 (ESV) - The Sabbath commandment
• Deuteronomy 5:12-15 (ESV) - Observance of the Sabbath Day

More From Andy Crouch:

• Interact with Andy's website
• Check out Andy's work at Praxis
• Read Andy's book: The Life We're Looking For
• Read Andy's book: The Tech-Wise Family

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

How Does Kathleen Norris Show Disability Shaping Love, Lament, and Christian Faith?

Bestselling writer Kathleen Norris joins host Curtis Chang on the Good Faith Podcast to talk about her new book, Rebecca Sue: A Sister's Reflections on Disability, Faith and Love. They share the story of Kathleen's disabled sister, Rebecca, and how her journey through perinatal hypoxia, bipolar disorder, anger, and finally gratitude reshaped their family's faith. This episode offers honest wisdom on caregiving, grief, and aging parents and siblings, plus ideas for making sense of a loved one's disability through letters and reflection. Curtis and Kathleen also explore how churches can better include people with disabilities who are "hidden in plain sight," and why love, lament, and telling the truth about our flaws are central to a life of faith.

(01:49) - What did disability mean in the Norris family?

(04:00) - Discovering Disability

(08:52) - The Connection Between Love and Lament

(16:24) - Lessons Learned Caring For a Dying Husband

(20:09) - The Complicated Journey Caregiving and Dying

(29:00) - Admiring a Father's Determination

(31:36) - Championing Disability Rights

(37:27) - Tackling Disability Awareness in Community

(41:56) - Are There Connections Between This Story and Norris' Other Books?

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• Kathleen Norris' Rebecca Sue: A Sister's Reflection on Disability, Faith, and Love
• Listen to Amy Julia Becker (Good Faith episode 145)
• A Brief History of the Benedictine Order
• Understanding the Holy Fool

More From Kathleen Norris:

• Kathleen Norris' The Cloister Walk
• Kathleen Norris' Dakota: A Spiritual Geography
• Kathleen Norris' Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

A Christian Case For Why Refugees Matter

Host Curtis Chang sits down with Myal Greene, President & CEO of World Relief, to discuss the global refugee crisis, U.S. immigration policy, and how the church can lead the way in offering hope, welcome, and advocacy. Greene explains what defines a refugee, why record numbers are displaced worldwide, and how faith communities—from the Vietnamese boatlift era to modern Good Neighbor Teams—have transformed lives through radical hospitality. Together, they unpack the biblical call to "welcome the stranger", explore how refugees strengthen churches, and share practical ways to get involved through initiatives like World Relief's Churches of Welcome.

(02:11) - What Is a Refugee?

(08:31) - The U.S. Churches' Historical Role in Resettlement

(14:22) - The Christian Case For Helping Refugees

(23:26) - Christians Are Immigrants

(29:20) - The Ramifications of Policy Changes

(43:15) - A Final Word from Myal Greene

Episode Guide for Personal and Group Study

Download World Relief's: "Let's Talk About It" conversation cards

Partner with World Relief in walking alongside families displaced by war, disaster and persecution — give today: World Relief

Donate to Redeeming Babel

Mentioned In This Episode:

• 2025 Evangelical Views on Immigration Study (Lifeway Research)
• Notre Dame Study on the Economic Benefits of Refugees in America
• Learn about Vietnamese Boat Crisis & Boat People
• What is the Refugee Act of 1980
• Facts about Afghan Special Immigrant Visas (SIVs)
• Learn More about Evelyn Mangham
• Learn more about National Association of Evangelicals (NAE)

Scripture Mentioned:

• Matthew 25:35-36 (ESV)
• Leviticus 23:22 (ESV)
• Luke 10:25–37; Matthew 25:34–40; James 1:27 (ESV) - The Good Samaritan

More From Myal Greene and World Relief:

• Learn more about World Relief
• Become a World Relief Volunteer
• Join World Relief's ​​Good Neighbor Teams
• Give to Open Doors (Organization collaborating with World Relief)

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

Wrestling with Shakespeare, Faith, and the Limits of Technology

Host Curtis Chang and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson—Fletcher Jones Chair of Great Books at Pepperdine University—explore The Tempest by William Shakespeare and its timeless wisdom for our technology-driven world. Through Prospero's struggle with power, control, and love, they draw parallels between Shakespeare's "magic" and our modern dependence on digital tools. Wilson explains how the play invites us to surrender our illusions of control, embrace humility, and rediscover relationships grounded in grace. Curtis and Jessica's discussion touches on C.S. Lewis, Andy Crouch, and the spiritual discipline of wrestling with hard texts and ideas in an age of easy answers from ChatGPT.

(02:30) - Dependence Upon Technology as Magic

(05:40) - What Do We Forget in Our Obsessions?

(11:03) - The Change in Prospero

(13:41) - Engaging With Challenging Texts

(18:53) - The Temptation of AI

(21:40) - Celebrating Good Faith Podcast Production

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• William Shakespeare's The Tempest (entire play)
• Andy Crouch's The Tech-Wise Family: Everyday Steps for Putting Technology in Its Proper Place
• Genesis 32:22-32 (ESV) - Jacob Wrestling with God or "the Angel"
• C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man (pdf)
• The Tempest Act V, Scene 1: "Prospero's Speech"
• John 1:1-14 (ESV) - Jesus as the Word or "logos"
• Hebrews 5:11-6:12 (ESV) - the metaphor of milk and solid food

More From Jessica Hooten Wilson:

• Jessica Hooten Wilson's website
• Explore Jessica's books HERE
• Read articles and Essay by Jessica HERE

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Redeeming Babel Newsletter

The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

How Are Cultural Shifts Making Evangelical Trends Look Like Revival?

Good Faith "founding friend" David French joins Curtis Chang for a powerful conversation on revival, revolution, and the future of American Christianity. Together they explore whether today's supposed spiritual movements signal a genuine renewal of faith or a political realignment within evangelical culture. From Gen Z's shifting beliefs to the rise of MAGA Christianity, they unpack the tension between true repentance and political identity. David and Curtis offer fresh insight into how Christians can pursue authentic spiritual growth while navigating a deeply divided cultural landscape.

(02:58) - What is happening in American Christianity?

(06:36) - It's Complicated: Mistaking Revolution For Revival

(09:35) - What Does Revival Look Like?

(12:11) - Revival vs. Revolutionary Christianity

(20:09) - Empathy and Struggling With Sin Together

(29:11) - Religious and Political Realignment in America

(39:45) - Religious Realignment in American Churches

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Mentioned In This Episode:

• David French's article Something Is Stirring in Christian America, and It's Making Me Nervous
• Barna Research: Young Adults Lead a Resurgence in Church Attendance
• Tim Keller's article 'Lord, Do It Again': Tim Keller on Revival (The Gospel Coalition)
• Tim Keller's message A Biblical Theology of Revival
• Read Acts 2:14-47 (ESV) - Peter preaches from Joel and repentance breaks out
• Read Isaiah 6 (ESV) - Isaiah's call and commission
• George Whitefield and the 1727 The Great Awakening
• What was the Azusa Street Revival? (Christian Union America)
• Kevin Brown's article What the Asbury Revival Taught Me About Gen Z (Christianity Today)
• What is Seven Mountain Dominionism?
• What is Catholic Integralism?
• Differing Opinions: Is Empathy A Sin? Some Conservative Christians Argue It Can Be (PBS)
• Rodney Stark The Rise of Christianity: A Sociologist Reconsiders History (PBS)
• Read Romans 5:1-11 (ESV) - Peace with God through faith
• Listen: Good Faith episode 30 Russell Moore discusses why "crazy as a church growth strategy" is not the way of Jesus
• Ryan Burge: What About White Evangelicals Who Aren't Conservative?

More From David French:

• David French's New York Times pieces HERE
• Follow David French on Threads

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The Good Faith Podcast is a production of Redeeming Babel, a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Redeeming Babel.

Can We Move From Fear to a Holy Indifference That Teaches Peace and Presence?

Seattle-based writer Sara Billups joins host Curtis Chang to explore how faith, mental health, and spiritual practices can help calm anxiety in our bodies, families, churches, and politics. Drawing from her book Nervous Systems (available November 4, 2025), Sara shares practical ways to find peace, emotional balance, and spiritual resilience amid today's chaos. Together, Curtis and Sara discuss how understanding our stories and grounding in faith can help us live with calm and clarity in an anxious culture.

(02:23) - Navigating Anxiety in Uncertain Times

(04:35) - Understanding Anxiety Across Generations

(18:58) - Navigating Anxiety With Holy Indifference

(26:00) - Anxiety in Churches, Politics, and Systems

(28:15) - Churches Cultivating Non-Anxious Presence

(33:43) - Finding a Spiritual Home in Crisis

(41:20) - Sara's Message a Generation of Anxious Young Adults

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Mentioned in this episode:

• Sara Billups' Nervous Systems: Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics
• What is Epigenetics? (Cleveland Clinic)
• Curt Thompson discusses generational trauma and epigenetics (episode of Curt's podcast)
• Ignatius' Spiritual Exercises
• St. Teresa of Lisieux's Divine Office
• The story behind the hymn It Is Well With My Soul
• Frederick Buechner describes his daughter's anorexia and praying Psalm 131 (video)
• Frederick Buechner's Telling Secrets
• Matthew 26:36-46 (ESV) Jesus prays in Gethsemane
• Edwin Friedman's A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix
• Edwin Friedman's Six Measures of Effective Leadership (Jack Shitima's Non-Anxious Leader blog)
• Mark Sayers's A Non-Anxious Presence: How a Changing and Complex World will Create a Remnant of Renewed Christian Leaders
• The ignatian concept of Indifference
• Thomas McKenzie's The Anglican Way: A Guidebook
• Tim Keller's The Church in the City (Series of audio messages)
• Christianity Today's The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill (podcast) 22
• Explore Grace Church Seattle
• Good Faith episode featuring Paco Amador of Little Village in Chicago

More from Sara Billups:

• Sara Billups' Orphaned Believers: How a Generation of Christian Exiles Can Find the Way Home
• Sara Billups' Bitter Scroll (substack)
• Sara Billups' That's the Spirit podcast (with Morgan Page)

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