We all take lots of different roles in our personal and professional lives, but one of the roles that I find most exciting (and aspire to myself) is being a convener and connector, bringing people together for generative purposes and in ways that don’t always happen in the silos of modern institutions. My guests this week, Professors Sheila L. Macrine and Jennifer M.B. Fugate have been doing just that in the emerging field of diverse intelligences. They are gathering some of the most leading-edge and brilliant researchers working today on the problems of how to understand agency, cognition and learning in the diverse ways that they are showing up in all kinds of bodyminds — natural, artificial, hybrid and everything in between! It’s an incredibly exciting area of research that is challenging us all, but particularly the legacy systems to loosen the grip on outdated and limiting ideas like IQ.

The two particular places where they have brought these researchers and ideas together are in their two co-edited volumes both with MIT press and both open access. 

Movement Matters: How Embodied Cognition Informs Teaching and Learning (https://direct.mit.edu/books/oa-edited-volume/5306/Movement-MattersHow-Embodied-Cognition-Informs ) (MIT Press, 2020), achieved considerable success, including award nominations and recognition as one of the top ten downloaded books through MIT Press’ Direct2Open. And in June this year they released their second volume entitled, Embodied Intelligence: Multidisciplinary Perspectives on Natural, Artificial, and Hybrid Systems (https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262053495/embodied-intelligence/ )

Professor Sheila Landers Macrine (https://www.umassd.edu/directory/smacrine/ ) is a cognitive psychologist and Professor at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, where she directs the Special Education Program. Holding two PhDs from Temple University, her research in embodied cognition, cognitive development, and alternative assessment has significantly influenced traditional educational paradigms. Dr. Macrine's innovative work includes developing culturally sensitive IQ assessments and pioneering methods for evaluating students with intellectual disabilities. Her recent publications on embodied cognition appear in the International Journal of School and Educational Psychology and the Oxford Research Encyclopedias-Education at Oxford University Press, among others. 

Dr. Jennifer M. B. Fugate (https://www.kansascity.edu/research/faculty-research/faculty-research-kc/jennifer-fugate) studies emotion perception and is trained in the cognitive underpinnings of how people construct emotion through their language (Ph.D., Emory University, 2008).  Dr. Fugate directs the ABLE (affective, behavior, learning and embodiment) lab for able mind and body: https://fugatejennifer.wordpress.com/.

She has three major lines of research: The Effect of Emotion Words on Varying Levels of Cognitive Processing; Increasing Emotion Word Knowledge and Granularity; Embodied Cognition in the Classroom and Teaching Research Skills: https://embodiedcognitionandlearning.com/ .

This is the last of 4 short episodes exploring Guy Claxton and Emily Poel's take on embodiment science that opens up to much-needed scrutiny our core concepts and deep grammars of schooling and education.

Following on from episodes on intelligence, learning and memory, this is a deeper dive into what embodiment science has to say about thinking and reasoning.

You can check out more of the background to this work in Chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8 in Guy and Emily's book 'Bodies of Learning' here: https://www.bodiesoflearning.org/

Most school reform efforts claim to be "research-based." But fewer are genuinely built with the people who have to live inside them every day. Building on some of the themes that I explored with Iwan Syahril on a recent episode, this week we're diving deeper into community-based design. Rather than starting with an expert’s blueprint, what happens when innovation starts with the community's own convictions about what its children deserve, and why that starting point often determines whether an idea actually takes root, or just gets installed and then quietly left to atrophy. As a fantastic example of that process working really well, we also discuss the Whole Child Model (https://www.wholechildmodel.org/), born exactly that way and now reaching thousands of students across the US and beyond.

Cynthia Robinson-Rivers is a managing partner at Transcend (⁠https://transcendeducation.org/⁠ ) where she supports schools as they adopt the Whole Child Model that she developed while serving as head of school at Van Ness Elementary (DC Public Schools).  Before her return to school leadership, Cynthia worked in the DCPS central office as the Director of Teacher Retention and Recognition.  In that role, she developed projects to improve retention of highly effective teachers, including LIFT: Leadership Initiative for Teachers, a career ladder system for teachers.  Prior to her work on teacher retention, Cynthia directed the DCPS master educator program during the inaugural year of IMPACT, the district’s teacher evaluation system.  She holds a B.A. in Communication and Art from Stanford University, M.A. in Education from George Washington University, and EML from the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. She is a fellow with the first class of the Aspen-Pahara Teacher Leaders Fellowship, a recipient of the Rubenstein Award for highly effective leadership, and a 2020 Boulder Fund grantee. Cynthia and her husband live in Washington, DC with their three children who all attend(ed) DC Public Schools.

Dr. Jeff Wetzler is co-founder of Transcend, former Chief Learning Officer of Teach For America, and a two-time author. Jeff’s career is dedicated to unlocking human potential by helping people learn more deeply and transform their mindsets to realize bold new possibilities for themselves, their organizations, and their communities.

In 2015 Jeff co-founded Transcend, a leading organization for driving innovation in the education sector. Since its founding, Transcend has been one of the fastest growing and most diverse organizations in the field of education innovation, working with hundreds of cutting-edge schools and districts in over thirty U.S. states and a vibrant network of 10,000+ innovators. Under Jeff’s leadership as co-CEO until 2024, Transcend raised over $80M of investment. Its resources have been translated in multiple languages and have reached communities worldwide, from Estonia to India to New Zealand. Jeff currently serves as Head of Transcend Labs and is a Board member at Transcend.

Prior to Transcend, Jeff served as Chief Learning Officer of Teach for America, one of the nation’s largest and most respected social impact organizations. Jeff is a Fellow in the Aspen Global Leadership Network and an Edmund Hillary Fellow.

Jeff is the co-author of Extraordinary Learning for All: How Communities Design Schools Where Everyone Thrives, with Aylon Samouha and Jenee Henry Wood, and author of Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs In Leadership and Life. It has been widely endorsed by experts and leaders such as Jim Collins, Adam Grant, Kim Scott, Seth Godin, Bill George, and Amy Edmondson, who wrote the book’s foreword.

More links:Transcend's conditions framework (last updated 2024)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0Ajp5f49M

https://vimeo.com/1171159869/fffdc226a8?fl=tl&fe=ec

https://vimeo.com/1157422544/2eb1dcf782?fl=pl&fe=sh

Welcome to this next episode in the series on the implications of Embodiment Science in education. After Episode 1 on intelligence and Episode 2 on learning, this is the third installment, where Guy Claxton and Emily Poel's take on what embodiment science has to say about how we understand memory and knowledge.

This is a hugely important call to those who have forgotten that the dominant way we talk about memory in education is actually a metaphor. And a bad one at that, that the science is now telling us needs to be replaced with something biologically plausible.

Rather than the narrow definition of schooling, if you think of education broadly, as raising children to become members of a community and as capable, functioning people contributing to the life and strength of that community, then the roles of schools and teachers in community can take on real significance. But from another perspective, becoming an "educated" person is often the thing that pulls people away from their community as they travel to nearby towns or cities to attend schools, and universities and pursue other careers. My guest this week, Sonia Bautista León is working in and with communities, across the Sierra Mixe in Oaxaca, Mexico co-creating educational responses to the challenges and opportunities being lived there. 

Sonia is Senior Coordinator at Radix Education (https://www.radixeducation.org/) and since 2020, she has been working on the Nuevo Maestro Project (https://www.proyectonuevomaestro.org/) in the state of Oaxaca, an organisation that trains teachers in primary and upper secondary education. She has worked as an educational consultant in various educational institutions and civil society organisations and has taught at university level at the National Pedagogical University 201, Oaxaca. She is a member of the Mexican Assembly of Former US Embassy Scholars and has also served as a mentor for the Indigenous Leaders Programme at the University of the Americas Puebla (UDLAP). 

Originally from the Sierra Juárez region of Oaxaca and a speaker of the Zapotec language, she firmly believes that education is the most powerful means of transforming the lives of children and young people, as well as their communities. Her professional development has focused primarily on the education of women and youth in indigenous and rural communities in the state of Oaxaca. She holds a Bachelor’s degree in Educational Intervention from the National Pedagogical University 201, a Master’s degree in Educational Administration from La Salle University in Oaxaca, and a Master’s degree in Teaching at the Benito Juárez Autonomous University of Oaxaca.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonia-bautista-le%C3%B3n-377a281a7/

After last week's inquiry into Guy Claxton and Emily Poel's theory of "real-world intelligence", this is the second of four short episodes exploring the fuller implications of embodiment science to our core concepts and deep grammars of schooling and education.

Today we are exploring the concept of how learning might be described differently from an embodiment science perspective, and how it is an integral part of the process of making our way in the world intelligently, balancing concerns, capabilities and circumstances as we explored last week.

There is a lot of talk about increasing agency in education and schooling, for young people and for teachers and we've done many episodes over the last 6 years that touch on it. But there is a tendency sometimes for discussions of agency to lack a bit of clarity in exactly what we mean by this slippery concept! My guests this week, Profs. Gert Biesta and Mark Priestley, published a seminal book with Sarah Robinson in 2015 on the subject of teacher agency, which moved the field forward hugely. 'Teacher Agency: An Ecological Approach' has just been republished in its second edition last month so I was very keen to talk about it with them. But, while I am fascinated by the concept of agency for many reasons, what particularly attracted me to Gert and Mark's work on this was their 'ecological approach'. Taking an ecological approach to understanding the conditions that give rise to agency, or any other outcome in education for that matter, feels like a really vital way to be approaching our central questions.

As a now 3 time guest, Gert is known well to listeners of the podcast, but his he has also recently been appointed as Professor of Education at the University of Melbourne, and since 2023 has served as ordinary member ('kroonlid') of the Education Council of the Netherlands (Onderwijsraad), the advisory body of the Dutch government and parliament on educational matters. 

He was previously Professor of Public Education in the Centre for Public Education and Pedagogy, Maynooth University, Ireland and Professor of Educational Theory and Pedagogy at the Moray House School of Education and Sport, University of Edinburgh. He is co-editor of the Asia-Pacific Journal of Teacher Education, and associate editor of Educational Theory, and previously co-editor of the British Educational Research Journal some time ago. 

Links:

https://www.gertbiesta.com/

https://www.goodimpactlabs.com/podcast/prof-gert-biesta

https://www.goodimpactlabs.com/podcast/gert-biesta

Mark Priestley is Professor of Education at the University of Stirling whose research interests lie in the school curriculum – theory, policy and practice – and especially the processes of curriculum making across different layers of education systems. He is the Director of the Stirling Centre for Research into Curriculum Making, a member of the Scottish Government’s key education advisory committees, the Scottish Education Council and the Curriculum and Assessment Board, and a Co-Convener of the EERA network 3, Curriculum. Alongside 'Teacher Agency: An Ecological Approach', his publications include 'Curriculum making in Europe: policy and practice within and across diverse contexts'.

Links:

https://www.stir.ac.uk/people/255862

https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/teacher-agency-9781350536333/

This is the first the 4 short episodes exploring the fuller implications of embodiment science to our core concepts and deep grammars of schooling and education.

As you will have heard on a previous episode I did with Prof. Guy Claxton and Emily Poel, their book 'Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education' is a really significant statement of some of the work we need to do to excavate these unhelpful myths that are holding us back in the decisions and designs that we make for new educational approaches.

In these four episodes, we're going to take a deeper look at the core concepts of intelligence, learning, memory & knowledge, and thinking & reasoning. And in this first episode, I ask guy and Emily, what does embodiment science have to say about the way that we think about intelligence.

A recent guest, Prof. Tony Chemero highlighted that anthropology is one of the more underestimated and often excluded of the ‘cognitive sciences’. I completely agree and since I discovered it in the early 2000s when I did my undergraduate degree at the University of Sussex, I have personally experienced anthropology not as a subject discipline, but rather as a way of approaching the world and cognition itself. That's why this week I was so happy to bring together four amazing anthropologists who care deeply about educational transformations to explore these questions.

Pascale Mompoint-Gaillard, PhD

Pascale is a social psychologist, trainer and facilitator, researcher and CEO of Learn to Change, Change to Learn, bridging theory and practice working in the area of collective intelligence, cooperative and transformative learning, with 30 years of professional practice. Pascale’s PhD (2021) focused on ‘Conversation as a learning ecology’ and how professionals develop through engaging in online professional learning communities. She has co-authored several handbooks of which the European Reference Framework of Competences for a Democratic Culture (RFCDC), (Council of Europe, 2018) and the TASKs for Democracy handbook, (Council of Europe, 2015) dedicated to student and teacher competence. 

https://pascalemompoint.com/

Conversation as an Ecology of Learning

Education for change: 

https://share.google/8K1PEdbaYIgbRuRqF

Developing intercultural education in schools: 

https://share.google/Of1MSlVTmedxoQ9Gm

A European framework for Democratic citizenship in education: https://share.google/8QSEiz5cAmg3HQjHz

Corina Enache 

Corina is the founder and system worker at Kotka (which means ‘eagle’ in Finnish and ‘female cat’ in Polish!) a consultancy helping living things grow well. She is also the host of The Human Show podcast. Corina’s work sits at the intersection of leadership development, organisational development, and anthropology, and unfolds through learning, dialogue, and real-time practice. She draws on experience across international corporate environments, consulting, academia and European projects, and work with different ways of knowing — thinking, sensing, and intuition — while staying close to what is actually happening in the system.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinaenache/ 

https://kotka.world/ 

https://worldpodcasts.com/the-human-show/ 

Patrick Alexander

Patrick is a social anthropologist specialising in education, childhood and youth studies. Patrick’s research and teaching interests include the sociology of schooling, youth and youth subcultures, gender, ethnography, and social theory. He is Reader in Education and Anthropology in the School of Education, Oxford Brookes University, as well as Research Lead for the School of Education, and Director of the Centre for Educational Consultancy and Development (CECD), where he leads consultancy and contract research activity in the field of education.

Patrick is a Fulbright Scholar, Fellow of the RSA, HEA, Royal Anthropological Institute (RAI), and a Fellow of International Union of Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences (IUAES). Patrick is also Research Fellow at the Institute of Social and Cultural Anthropology, University of Oxford and Editor of the journal Teaching Anthropology (https://teachinganthropology.org/ ).

https://www.brookes.ac.uk/profiles/staff/patrick-alexander 

https://patrickgalexander.org/about-3/  

Zineb Mouhyi

Zineb is a mother, daughter, writer, educator, scholar-activist, and PhD candidate in Anthropology and Social Change at the California Institute of Integral Studies. Zineb was also the co-founder of ⁠YouthXYouth⁠, a global organisation that she set up with Valentina Raman, to convene youth-led action around transforming education systems.

Young People are Reclaiming their Education and Making New Worlds Possible - A Conversation with Zineb Mouhyi (Ep185)

Sarah Pink (2025). ⁠Futures Anthropology for the Polycrisis⁠. Anthropological Forum, 1–18. 

There aren’t many people who can say that they have learned their hard-won leadership lessons through the experience of steering an educational transformation across a whole country, let alone a country made up of nearly 300 million people across 17,000 islands! My guest in this episode, Dr. Iwan Syahril, has taken the time and care to reflect on some of these lessons in his fantastic new book, ‘Students, Students, Students!: The Human Journey in Leadership and System Transformation’. But he was also kind enough to join me to reflect on it on the podcast this week. As Iwan argues, the only way to align a massive, complex educational system transformation is a clear, simple purpose and to move away from bureaucratic jargon and complex policies to focus relentlessly on the child. And then for that transformation to be sustainable, it must be rooted in a society’s own values rather than imported models. For Indonesia, that meant drawing on the philosophy of Ki Hajar Dewantara and the spirit of gotong royong (mutual cooperation). 

Iwan is a global leader shaping the future of human-centered education in the age of AI. An authority on leading change at scale, he advises global organizations and governments on building resilient, future- ready systems. His expertise is grounded in his tenure as Director General at Indonesia's Ministry of Education, where he architected the Merdeka Belajar reforms, digitally empowering 3.3 million teachers and improving outcomes for 53 million students. A former Chair of the G20 Education Working Group, his strategic vision is informed by frontline experience teaching in Indonesia, the US, and Canada, and his leadership as Dean of Education at Sampoerna University. He holds graduate degrees from Columbia University, a dual PhD and Honorary Doctorate from Michigan State University, and a fellowship from HP-Cambridge.

His work now sits at the frontier of policy, practice, and technology, helping education systems move faster, fairer, and with greater resilience. In his book, Students, Students, Students!: The Human Journey in Leadership and System Transformation, he outlines many of the powerful principles for leading complex change.Iwan’s wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwan_Syahril 

Iwan’s website: https://sites.google.com/view/studentsstudentsstudents/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iwan.syahril/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iwansyahril

Cognition is a strange word and not a very commonly used word by practicing educators.  It feels academic and detached from the act of a group of young people learning in the world. 

But when you look at the dictionary definition of cognition – the "mental action or process of acquiring, storing, retrieving, and processing knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses" – this seems pretty fundamental to what we do as educators. But what if our understanding of what it means has been heavily biased by the Western modern scientific paradigm? For example, in the difference between learning the world and learning about the world via the linguistic labels and symbols that we create to represent aspects of it. 

My guest this week Jinan KB is offering a radically different description of what natural cognition or the biological roots of cognition actually are.  I absolutely love these kinds of conversations as they challenge me right at the edge of my understanding given my own conditioning into particular ways of knowing about the world. It also feels like a really alive part of what we're being asked to do now more broadly, to explore more generously and expansively the space of what is possible in order to think differently about the educational and societal predicaments in which we find ourselves.

Jinan is a researcher of natural cognition, cognitive autonomy, and the biological foundations of knowing. His work began with a simple but unsettling question: How do human beings naturally create knowledge? In 1991, Jinan stopped reading in order to investigate this question directly. For over four decades, he has explored this question through lived engagement with children, non-literate artisans, indigenous communities, design education, and everyday life. He is the author of Awakening Beauty and works with parents, educators, designers, researchers, and communities interested in recovering the conditions that allow human intelligence to flourish naturally.

• Website: https://www.jinankb.in/ 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jinan-kb-5386676/ 

• Impact of literacy on consequence: https://youtu.be/WG9uJN-UoSc?si=0sMtaGuwLe4sn9Py 

• How do Children Create knowledge? How teaching is detrimental to a child's learning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3A-8iI4Py4 

• What is Knowledge? Implicit and explicit knowledge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IhVFs4b8wA 

• How schools and toys are damaging children? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z72rbcSpi7o 

• Storytelling and Reading are damaging for children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ZVLDpfzLI 

• Word and the World form two different Cognitive systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHZNIEwio8&t=1s