Jules Skotnes-Brown joins Claudia on the show to discuss how segregating logics were used to govern humans and animals in South Africa’s history. This includes everything from Addo’s elephants being driven, enclosed, and “tamed”, to Kalahari San people being policed inside a national park and managed through rations and confinement. 

Topics Covered:

•  The difference between environmental history and animal history  
•  Defining segregation as a ideological and material connections rather than direct comparisons
•  Addo elephants labelled vermin then reclassified as a rare “race” worth preserving
•  Kalahari San people policed through park rules, hunting bans, arrests, and rationing
•  The spectrum from pest to protected as a tool of governance and population control
•  Plague, sanitation, and health departments as engines for forced removal and spatial separation
•  How metaphors of infestation travel from animals to humans and back again
•  Animal highlight: pigs in Kingston, waste policy, hog cholera, and urban bylaw change

Date Recorded: 16 October 2025

Jules Skotnes-Brown is a historian of animals, disease, and knowledge production in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. He is the author of Segregated Species: Pests, Knowledge, and Boundaries in South Africa, 1910-1948, which won the Royal Historical Society’s First Book Prize in 2025. He is currently writing a second book on the global history of rats, plague, and capitalist infrastructure in the twentieth century. Jules completed his PhD at University of Cambridge History and Philosophy Science in 2020. Jules is a Wellcome Trust Research Fellow at University of Liverpool and PI of the Wellcome Trust funded research project 'Conserving Global Health: Biodiversity Protection and the Prehistory of Planetary Health' (2026-2031). The project will explore the historical engagements, collaborations and frictions between conservation theories and practices and international, global, and planetary health in the long twentieth century. In so doing, it will provide a prehistory of Planetary Health.

Featured: 

• Segregated Species: Pests, Knowledge, and Boundaries in South Africa, 1910–1948 by Jules Skotnes-Brown
• The Kruger National Park: A Social and Political Historyby Jane Carruthers
• What Was It Like to Be a Cow? History and Animal Studies by Erica Fudge 
• The History of Animals in the Present Moment by Erica Fudge
• Afro-Dog: Blackness and the Animal Question by Bénédicte Boisseron
• Venus in Two Acts by Saidiya Hartman
• Vermin Beings: On Pestiferous Animals and Human Game by Clapperton Chakanetsa Mavhunga
• Necropolitics by Achille Mbembe
• The Sanitation Syndrome by Maynard Swanson 
• Elephants in Africa by Frank Melland
• The Global War Against the Rat and the Epistemic Emergence of Zoonosis
• Scurrying seafarers: shipboard rats, plague, and the land/sea borderby Jules Skotnes-Brown
• Sulphuric Utopias: A History of Maritime Fumigationby Lukas Engelmann and Christos Lynetris
• Stones: Animal Histories of Kingston by Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Pigs Peace Sanctuary
• The Animal Turn Signal Group

Other episodes of The Animal Turn

• S5E4: Epidemiological Dividual with Christos Lynteris 
• Season 8: Animals and Media

Animal Highlight: “Eat Like a Pig”: Separating pigs from humans

Quote:  “The elephant problem, a term which I use as one uses the unsatisfactory phrase ‘the native problem,’ because it means to me much the same thing – the rectification of our past mistakes and the attempt to bring an old, indigenous and very different form of life into harmony with our own life and aims” from Frank Melland, Elephants in Africa (1938), p 145.

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

Credits:

• Sponsor: Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E)
• Guests: Jules Skotnes-Brown
• Host: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Editing and Production: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Episode Artwork: Rebecca Shen
• Content Creation and Support: Herre de Bondt and Carlo Salzani
• Animal Highlight: Stones Walking Tour
• Sound Effects: Epidemic Sound
• Bed Music: Gordon Clarke
• Logo: Jeremy John

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Harriet Ritvo discusses animals and taxonomy, unfurling the ways in which animals are categorised scientifically and in everyday vernacular.  She unfurls what this might mean for how we know animals and the ways in which we understand and write their histories. 

Topics Covered:

•  how classification systems expose human values and power
•  why herd books matter for animal history and domestication
• scientific taxonomy versus vernacular categories 
•  naming rules, authority, and what counts as a “real” species boundary
•  how “native” and “invasive” change with politics and time
•  camels in Australia, wild horses, dingoes, and conservation trade-offs
•  Atlantic salmon in Kingston and the story of local extinction and restoration

Date Recorded: 20 April 2026

 Harriet Ritvo is the Arthur J. Conner Professor of History at MIT. She works in the fields of environmental history, the history of human-animal relations, British and British empire history, and the history of natural history. She is the author of numerous books , including The Platypus and the Mermaid, and Other Figments of the Classifying Imagination (Harvard UP, 1997), The Animal Estate: The English and Other Creatures in the Victorian Age (Harvard UP, 1987), and Noble Cows and Hybrid Zebras: Essays on Animals and History (Virginia, 2010). Her articles and reviews have appeared in a wide range of periodicals and she is an editor of the “Animals, History, Culture” series published by the Johns Hopkins University Press. She has a great deal of accolades and accomplishments, not least of which is being given the Distinguished Scholar Award from the American Society for Environmental History in 2020. Learn more about her here. 

 Featured: 

• The Platypus and the Mermaidby Harriet Ritvo
• The Animal Estate: The English and Other Creatures in the Victorian Age  by Harriet Ritvo
• Noble Cows and Hybrid Zebras: Essays on Animals and History by Harriet Ritvo
• Sex and the Single Animalby Harriet Ritvo
• Forty years of embryo transfer in cattle by John F. Hasler
• After the Ice Age: The Return of Life to Glaciated North America by E. C. Pielou
• Anthony Trollope
• A list in time: A story of how animals came to be categorized by Claudia Hirtenfelder
• The Violent Conservation of the European Wildcat by Virginia Thomas
• Compassionate Conservation with Daniel Ramp on The Animal Turn. 
• Kontihnawa:ra: Atlantic Salmon on Stones

 Animal Highlight: Taxonomies of Atlantic Salmon in Kingston

Quote: “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved” – Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species.

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

Credits:

• Sponsor: Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E)
• Guests: Harriet Ritvo
• Host: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Editing and Production: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Episode Artwork: Rebecca Shen
• Content Creation and Support: Herre de Bondt and Carlo Salzani
• Technical Support: Christiaan Mentz
• Animal Highlight: Stones Walking Tour
• Sound Effects: Epidemic Sound
• Bed Music: Gordon Clarke
• Logo: Jeremy John

Support via:

• Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/join/TheAnimalTurn 
• Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/theanimalturn 
• Buzzsprout: https://theanimalturn.buzzsprout.com/ 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Erica Hill and Susan Nance join Claudia on the show to discuss “modernity.” They discuss what this relatively messy shorthand means for history and for understanding human–animal relations. They try to unpack what is meant by modernity and touch on everything from industrialisation to concealment and consumption.  

Topics Covered:

•  Animal History, the journal that tries to understand animals as historical subjects
•  Using animal welfare science to interpret historical animals’ behaviour
• Zooarchaeology, domestication, and deep-time shifts that complicate ideas of modernity
•  Concealment and the contradictions of animal use
•  Intensification and standardisation
•  Celebrity animals and hidden populations 
•  Animal Highlight: Bears in Kingston, Ontario

Date Recorded: 27 April 2026

Erica Hill is President's Arctic Professor at the University of Alaska Southeast in Juneau, Alaska. She is an archaeologist with broad research interests in how humans and animals lived together in the past. She has published extensively on Indigenous human engagement with marine mammals in the North Pacific and has worked in Iceland, Peru, and the US Southwest. Her most recent edited volume is Reimagining Human–Animal Relations in the Circumpolar North (2024) with Peter Whitridge. 

Susan Nance is Professor of History and affiliated faculty with the Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare at the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada. She is the author of various books and articles, including Rodeo: An Animal History (University of Oklahoma Press, 2020) and Animals in Nineteenth Century America: A History in Documents (Broadview Press, 2026). Susan is also Co-Lead Editor at Animal History, the first scholarly journal dedicated to the histories of animal life and human-animal relationships. Her current research documents the nature and scope of the trade in biologically-wild animals in the 20th century United States through a study of Las Vegas. https://susannance.com/ 

Featured: 

• Animal History
• Rodeo: An Animal History by Susan Nance
• The Historical Animal by Susan Nance
• Reimagining Human-Animal Relations in the Circumpolar North edited by Peter Whitridge and Erica Hill
• Ordinary Cities: Between Modernity and Development by Jennifer Robinson 
• What Is Animal Prehistory? by Shumon T. Hussain
• Man and the Natural World by Kieth Thomas
• Hundreds trying to storm Wisconsin beagle research facility on the CNN

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

Credits:

• Sponsor: Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E)
• Guests: Susan Nance and Erica Hill
• Host: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Editing and Production: Claudia Hirtenfelder
• Episode Artwork: Rebecca Shen
• Content Creation and Support: Herre de Bondt and Carlo Salzani
• Technical Support: Christiaan Mentz
• Animal Highlight: Stones Walking Tour
• Sound Effects: BBC Sound Effects; Epidemic Sound
• Bed Music: Gordon Clarke
• Logo: Jeremy John

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Claudia speaks with historian Sandra Swart about the importance of recognising animals’ cultural histories. They discuss the maturation of animal history as a field and focus on the cultural histories of baboons and elephants in South Africa. 

Topics covered: 

• Working definition of animal culture 
• Fuffification and disnification of wildlife 
• The deep and urban history of baboons 
• A lone elephant in the Knysna Forest 
• ‘Rogue’ elephants in the Pilanesberg
• Animal Highlight: Elephant history in Kingston, Ontario

Sandra Swart is Professor and Chair of the Department of History at Stellenbosch University, South Africa. She is Director of the African Anthropocenes Research Centre, Guest Professor of Anthropocene History at KTH Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden, and co-Vice President of European Society for Environmental History. She received her DPhil in Modern History from in 2001, and simultaneously an MSc in Environmental Change and Management, both at Oxford University. She studies the more-than-human history of southern Africa. She is an editor of the Brill book series African and Asian Anthropocene: Studies in the Environmental Humanities. She is the co-author with Greg Bankoff, of , Breeds of Empire: The ‘invention’ of the horse in the Philippines and Southern Africa, 1500-1950 (Nordic Institute of Asian Studies Press 2007); co-editor, with Lance van Sittert, of Canis Africanis: a dog history of southern Africa (Brill, 2008), co-editor of Gender and Animals in History (Amsterdam University Press, 2024), and co-editor with Emily O’Gorman, Mark Carey and William San Martín, The Routledge Handbook of Environmental History (Routledge, 2023). She is sole author of Riding High – Horses, Humans and History in South Africa (Johannesburg: Witwatersrand University Press, 2010) Her most recent book is The Lion’s Historian – Africa’s Animal Past (Ohio University Press, 2025), winner of the Southern African Historical Prize 2025. Learn more. 

Date Recorded: 20 May 2026

Featured: 

• The Lion’s Historian by Sandra Swart 
• Riding High: Horses, Humans, and History in South Africa by Sandra Swart 
• The Dreaded Comparison by Majorie Spiegel 
• Cooperative Hunting: How Eels and Grouper Partner on Prey
• Animal rights/human rights: Entanglements of oppression and liberation by David Nibert
• Lions of Gir
• Stones Walking Tour: Colonial Elephant

Other Episodes of The Animal Turn Mentioned:

• S2E3: Animal Culture with Carl Safina 
• S6E8: Re-Animalization with Krithika Srinivasan

Quotes: 

“Until the lion has the opportunity to tell the story of the hunt it will aways be a story of the hunter” (West African Proverb).

“I would be proud to call myself ‘the lion’s historian.’ I hope I have many years ahead exploring social and environmental history in a way that takes the other animals seriously. But let us not concede that we historians are more like baboons than lions. Of course, I mean this in the nicest possible way. A good historian is baboonesque – a trickster figure, adept at shapeshifting and boundary-crossing, unconstrained and omnivorous in our intellectual pleasures. We diligently and delicately pick the lice from the archival armpit. We are not afraid to grasp the nettle or to pluck the prickly pear of public polemic. We are strangers on the rocks, the watchers on the krantzes, the sentinels on the wall. We see and remember” (Swart, The Lion’s Historian, 2023, 294).

“We need to write histories taking a broader view beyond that of the hunter. We need accounts that connect deep history to the present moment. We need stories in which gender and generational context are not forgotten. These new histories will allow us to understand our own past as more complete in a multi-species and more-than-human context. But I would go much further and suggest that the other animals have their own histories too, both entangled in and independent of our human histories. Our understanding that animals have their own ‘cultures’, their ‘having history’ becomes irrefutable. What, after all, is history if not cultures changing over time?” (Swart, The Lion’s Historian, 2023, 83).

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

 Thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E) for sponsoring this podcast; Gordon Clarke (Instagram: @_con_sol_) for the bed music, Jeremy John for the logo. Thank you Rebecca Shen, Christiaan Menz, Herre de Bondt, and Carlo Salzani for back of house and content support. This episode was edited and produced by the host Claudia Towne Hirtenfelder. 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Charlotte Blattner discusses how international law, specifically Extraterritorial Jurisdiction, might provide a useful and productive way in which to build legal protections for animals. 

Date recorded: 10 April 2020

Guest: Charlotte E. Blattner is a senior researcher and lecturer at the Institute for Public Law, University of Bern. She earned her PhD in international law and animal law from the University of Basel, Switzerland, as part of the doctoral program Law and Animals. From 2017-2018, she completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the Department of Philosophy at Queen’s University, Canada, working on animal labour as part of Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law, and Ethics (APPLE). From 2018-2020, Blattner was a  postdoctoral fellow at Harvard Law School’s Animal Law & Policy Program, funded by the Swiss National Science Foundation, to explore critical intersections of animal and environmental law. She is the author of Protecting Animals Within and Across Borders (2019, available open access here) and Animal Labour: A New Frontier of Interspecies Justice? (2020, coedited with Will Kymlicka and Kendra Coulter), both published by Oxford University Press. Blattner has argued several cases in court, including the “Primate Rights Case” currently pending at the Swiss Federal Supreme Court. Find out more about Charlotte here. 

Featured:  

• Protecting Animals Within and Across Borders: Extraterritorial Jurisdiction and the Challenges of Globalization by Charlotte E. Blattner
• Critical Terms for Animal Studies edited by Lori Gruen featuring Kristen Stilt

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

[From the Archive - Enjoy!]

Claudia talks to Jonathan Balcombe about fishes and their varied and incredible experiences. Using the concept of ‘shoalmates’ as a launch pad, they discuss some of the intra- and inter-species relations fishes engage in from work to cuddle and play. 

 

Date recorded: 30 November 2020

 

Jonathan Balcombe is a biologist with a PhD in ethology, the study of animal behavior. His books include Pleasurable Kingdom, Second Nature, The Exultant Ark, and What a Fish Knows—a New York Times best-seller now available in fifteen languages. His next book for grown-ups, Super Fly, will be published May 2021 by Penguin Books. A children’s story book about a boy and a fish is also scheduled for publication in 2021. He has taught courses in animal behavior and sentience for the Viridis Graduate Institute, and Humane Society University. He lives in Belleville, Ontario where in his spare time he enjoys biking, baking, birding, Bach, and trying to understand the neighborhood squirrels. Learn more about Jonathan and his work here. 

  

Featured:  

• A foray into the worlds of animals and humans by Jakob von Uexküll; 
• Sterling murmuration by canoeists; 
• The Ocean Sunfishes by Tierney Thys et al; 
• The Dark Hobby by Paradise Filmworks

 

Thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E) for sponsoring this podcast, Gordon Clarke (Instagram: @_con_sol_) for the bed music, and Jeremy John (Website) for the logo. 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Vivisection is an old word for a practice that still shapes modern medicine: using living bodies as tools for knowledge. Claudia talks with Lauren Stein and Richard Miller from the National Anti-Vivisection Society to unpack some of vivisection’s history, how scientists understand it and think through the ethics of it, as well as the emergence of alternatives to its use. 

Date Recorded: 22 June 2026

 Lauren Stein, Ph.D., is the Director of Science and Research Programs at the National Anti-Vivisection Society (NAVS). She joined NAVS in 2024 after spending more than a decade in academic biomedical research focused on the interactions between the brain and body and their effects on human health. Lauren holds a Ph.D. in Pharmacology and Physiology and is dedicated to advancing humane, human-relevant research technologies that replace animal use while improving scientific outcomes. Through her work at NAVS, she helps educate the public about emerging alternatives to animal testing and the future of biomedical research. Learn more at https://navs.org.

 Richard Miller, Ph.D., is Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine and a science adviser to the National Anti-Vivisection Society. After decades conducting biomedical research, he became a leading voice for replacing animal experimentation with modern, human-relevant research methods. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Animal Experimentation: Empathy, Science, and the Future of Research, which examines the history, ethics, and scientific limitations of animal-based research while exploring emerging alternatives. Dr. Miller has published more than 500 scientific papers and brings both firsthand laboratory experience and historical perspective to discussions about the future of science. Learn more at https://richardjmillerscientist.com.

 

Featured: 

• National Anti-Vivisection Society (NAVS)
• The Rise and Fall of Animal Experimentation by Richard Miller
• On The Revolutions Of The Celestial Spheres by Nicholas Copernicus 
• De humani corporis fabrica libri septem by Andreae Vesalii Bruxellensis
• A Discourse on Method by Rene Descartes. 
• The Vacanti Mouse (The Ear Mouse) 
• Ontario halts invasive medical testing on dogs and cats 

Other Episodes of The Animal Turn

• S5E5: Animal Testing and its Alternatives with Thomas Hartung
• S5E6: Brown Dog - The Forgotten Terrier Who Sparked a Movement

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Claudia talks with Kathryn Gillespie about “haunting” as a way to notice how harm and care shape everyday human–animal relationships. They discuss everything, from feeding urban crows to grieving orcas and lab beagles learning what grass feels like. They consider the role of attentiveness in relations with animals and ask what becomes visible when we stop treating violence as background noise.

Date Recorded: 1 April 2026

Kathryn Gillespie, PhD, is a writer, researcher, and educator dedicated to understanding the relationships of harm and care humans have with other animals. Her work invites readers to reflect on their own connections and disconnections with animals and the natural work and imagine a path to gentler futures. She is the author of The Sound of Feathers: Attentive Living in a World Beyond Ourselves and The Cow with Ear Tag #1389. She lives at the end of the world with a wonderful human, three senior rescue horses, and a donkey with a big personality.  Learn more about Kathryn via her website. 

 

Featured: 

• The Sound of Feathers by Kathryn Gillespie 
• The Cow with Ear Tag #1389 by Kathryn Gillespie
• The afterlives of the lively commodity by Kathryn Gillespie 
• Playing Possum by Susana Monsó
• Animals and the Right to Politics by Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka 
• Ghostly Matters by Avery F. Gordon
• The Spectralities Reader edited by Maria del Pilar Blanco  and Esther Peeren 
• How to do nothing by Jenny Odell

 

Other Episodes of The Animal Turn

• S2E5 - Intimate Geography with Kathryn Gillespie

 

Quote: 

“Haunting is one way in which abusive systems of power make themselves known and their impacts felt in everyday life, especially when they are supposedly over and done with (slavery, for instance) or when their oppressive nature is denied (as in free labor or national security). Haunting is not the same as being exploited, traumatized, or oppressed, although it usually involves these experiences or is produced by them. What's distinctive about haunting is that it is an animated state in which a repressed or unresolved social violence is making itself known, sometimes very directly, sometimes more obliquely. I used the term haunting to describe those singular yet repetitive instances when home becomes unfamiliar, when your bearings on the world lose direction, when the over-and-done-with comes alive, when what's been in your blind spot comes into view. Haunting raises specters, and it alters the experience of being in time, the way we separate the past, the present, and the future. These specters or ghosts appear when the trouble they represent and symptomize is no longer being contained or repressed or blocked from view. The ghost, as I understand it, is not the invisible or some ineffable excess. The whole essence, if you can use that word, of a ghost is that it has a real presence and demands its due, your attention. Haunting and the appearance of specters or ghosts is one way, I tried to suggest, we are notified that what's been concealed is very much alive and present, interfering precisely with those always incomplete forms of containment and repression ceaselessly directed toward us. From Ghostly Matters (page xvi).

 

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

 

Thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E) for sponsoring this podcast; Gordon Clarke (Instagram: @_con_sol_) for the bed music, Jeremy John for the logo, Rebecca Shen for her design work. This episode was edited and produced by the host Claudia Towne Hirtenfelder. 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

John Sanbonmatsu joins Claudia on the show to discuss ‘deception,’ a concept in the title of his recently published book “The Omnivore’s Deception.” We explore how deception operates in understandings of meat and human relations with animals, including how industries actively deceive the public but also how individuals engage in practices of bad faith and self-deception.  

Date Recorded: 25 February 2026

John Sanbonmatsu is Professor of Philosophy at Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Massachusetts, where he teaches courses in ethics, politics, and existentialism, philosophy of technology, and other topics. He is the author of The Omnivore's Deception: What We Get Wrong about Meat, Animals, and Ourselves (NYU Press) and of The Postmodern Prince: Critical Theory, Left Strategy, and the Making of a New Political Subject (Monthly Review Press). He is also editor of the book Critical Theory and Animal Liberation (Bloomsbury). His opinion essays have appeared in Christian Science Monitor, CounterPunch, Huffington Post, and St. Louis Post-Dispatch, among other places. Learn more about him on his website. 

 

Featured: 

• The Omnivore’s Deception by John Sanbonmatsu
• The Postmodern Prince by John Sanbonmatsu
• Animal Liberation by Peter Singer
• The Omnivores Dilemma by Michael Pollan
• The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith 
• The Women’s Room by Marilyn French 
• The Heart is a Lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers
• Moby Dick by Herman Melville
• Bad Faith by Jean-Paul Sartre 
• The Animals versus man the king of the jinn by Ikhwān al-Ṣafāʼ
• The Jungle by Upton Sinclair
• The Lives of Animals by J.M. Coetzee
• Anti-Semite and Jew by Jean-Paul Satre
• Population Balance
• Half-Earth Socialism by Troy Vettese and Drew Pendergrass

The Animal Turn is part of the  iROAR, an Animals Podcasting Network and can also be found on A.P.P.L.E, LinkedIn,Blue Sky, and Instagram

 Thank you to Animals in Philosophy, Politics, Law and Ethics (A.P.P.L.E) for sponsoring this podcast; Gordon Clarke (Instagram: @_con_sol_) for the bed music, Jeremy John for the logo, Rebecca Shen, Christiaan Menz, Herre de Bondt, and Carlo Salzani for their content creation and support. This episode was edited and produced by the host Claudia Towne Hirtenfelder. 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

Claudia talks to political philosophers Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka about their latest book Animals and the Right to Politics. They discuss the differences between societal and placed based politics, unpacking why both are necessary to enable animals’ political engagement. 

Date Recorded: 30 January 2026

Featured: 

• Animals and The Right to Politics by Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka 
• Animal agora: Animal citizens and the democratic challenge by Sue Donaldson
• Environmental Ethics as Environmental Etiquette by Jim Cheney and Anthony Weston
• What Comes After Entanglement by Eva Giraud
• Public Things by Bonnie Honig
• The Frontenac Axis
• VINE Sanctuary

Other Episodes of The Animal Turn

• S1E1: Animal Rights with Will Kymlicka
• S2E7: Political Multispecies Communities with Sue Donaldson
• S6E1: Politics with Will Kymlicka
• Bonus: Koalas with Danielle Clode 

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website. 

In this episode Claudia talks Teddy Duncan Jr. who departs from the Marxian consideration of the meat-commodity to think about how psychoanalysis, especially Lacanian psychoanalysis, might be useful in understanding human relations with meat. They discuss the interconnections of language, disavowal, symbolism, jouissance, and ‘the Real’ in this discussion. 

Date Recorded: 12 November 2025

Teddy Duncan Jr is a professor at Valencia College in Orlando, Florida. Teddy’s academic writing on subjects such as animality, psychoanalysis, pedagogy, and philosophy has been published in Between the Species, Journal on Excellence in College Teaching, the International Journal of Zizek Studies, The Latin American Literary Review, and The Midwest Quarterly. His freelance writing on art, politics, and literature has appeared in publications such as The Observer, Compact Magazine, Document Journal, and Washington Independent Review of Books, among others. His first academic book, Interpreting Meat, was released in late 2024.  Get in touch with Teddy Duncan via [email protected]

Featured: 

• Zoological Lacan: A Lacanian Framework for Animality and Humanness by Teddy Duncan
• For They Know Not What They Do: Enjoyment as a Political Factorby Slavoj Žižek
• The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol Adams 
• Mythologiesby Roland Barthes 
• Powers of Horror by Julia Kristeva
• Animal to Edible by Noilie Vialles
• Ecrits: A Selection by Jacques Lacan
• Human, All Too Human: "Animal Studies" and the Humanities by Cary Wolfe 
• “Eat More Chicken” – Chick-Fil-A-Cows Ad Campaign

A.P.P.L.E
Animals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.

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The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of the  iROAR Network. Learn more on our website.