This episode makes three earnest, possibly foolhardy, attempts to put a price on the priceless. We figure out the dollar value for an accidental death, another day of life, and the work of bats and bees as we try to keep our careful calculations from falling apart in the face of the realities of life, and love, and loss. 

In this story you’ll hear references to some of the issues that were on our minds when it first came out in 2014: wars in the middle east, drug costs and health care practices. Even as the exact shapes of these issues have evolved over the past dozen years, we feel the underlying questions are relevant and timeless: What is life worth? What about the earth?

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Molly Webster, Simon Adler, Tim Howard, and Matt Kielty
with help from - Shahib Al-Masawa 
Produced by - Matt Kielty, Tim Howard
Fact-checking by - Michelle Soraka

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Books - 

• Memoir of A Debulked Woman (https://zpr.io/WJz2Ybvq3HmT) by Susan Gubar
• Being Mortal (https://zpr.io/8J47trRcbjKh) by Atul Gawande

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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For most of human history, people went about their daily lives with a worm or two (or fifty) in their guts. Only in the past century, with pharmaceuticals and sanitation practices, have we made significant strides towards deworming the whole of humanity. And that’s typically been thought of as a good thing, because having too many worms in your body can–quite literally–suck the life out of you.

But is it possible to have… too few worms? Science wonders if deworming ourselves has actually led to an increase in certain chronic diseases. On this episode, we dive into Necator americanus, a.k.a. the American Hookworm, and its mysterious relationship with each of us.

We trace the hookworm’s 118-year journey from a demonized economic depressant, to its use as a desperate D.I.Y. immunosuppressant, to its potential as a medical treatment for a number of chronic diseases, everything from asthma to MS.

We’re bringing back two stories  from our 2009 episode Parasites plus new research on hookworms and autoimmune diseases, reported by Molly Webster

Special thanks to Ethan Hein for the use of his remix of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 21. Plus, Doris Pierce, and Dan and Alice Hadley.

EPISODE CREDITS: 

Reported by - Pat Walters and Molly Webster
with help from - {{wREPORTERS}}

Produced by - Matt Kielty

with help from - Rebecca Rand

Fact-checking by - Diane A. Kelly

and Edited by  - Arianne Wack

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Articles - 

Effect of experimental hookworm infection on insulin resistance in people at risk of type 2 diabetes (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37495576/) by Giacomin PR et al. Nat Commun. 2023 Jul 26

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With all of the black-and-white moralizing in our world today, we decided to bring back an old show from 2011 about the little bit of bad that's in all of us...and the little bit of really, really bad that's in some of us.  

Cruelty, violence, badness... in this episode we begin with a chilling statistic: 91% of men, and 84% of women, have fantasized about killing someone. We take a look at one particular fantasy lurking behind these numbers, and wonder what this shadow world might tell us about ourselves and our neighbors. Then, we reconsider what Stanley Milgram's famous experiment really revealed about human nature (it's both better and worse than we thought). Next, we meet a man who scrambles our notions of good and evil: chemist Fritz Haber, who won a Nobel Prize in 1918...around the same time officials in the US were calling him a war criminal. And we end with the story of a man who chased one of the most prolific serial killers in US history, then got a chance to ask him the question that had haunted him for years: why?

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Pat Walters and Latif Nasser
Produced by - Pat Watlers
with help from - Carter Hodge.

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In 2017, Wayne Hsiung and a crew of animal rights activists from Direct Action Everywhere broke into a Utah pig farm run by Smithfield Foods, one of the largest pork distributors in the world. They were there to capture video of what they say were thousands of mistreated and abused animals kept in tiny metal cages barely bigger than their bodies. As they were leaving, they took two sick piglets out with them.

Prosecutors in Utah charged Wayne with burglary and theft. What came next was the court battle that he wanted all along. During his trial, Wayne made a truly bizarre argument that forced the jury, and all of us, to stare straight at our complicated, sometimes uncomfortable relationship with animals. This week on the show, we grapple with the impossible question at the center of it: What is the value of a piglet? 

Special thanks to Kim Nederveen Pieterse, Nathan Peereboom, Jo Eidman, Sam Kozloff, Rachel Gross, Alex Allaux, and Joan Schaffner. 

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Sindhu Gnanasambandan and Jae Minard
Produced by - Sindhu Gnanasambandan
with help from - Pat Walters
with mixing help from - Jeremy Bloom
Fact-checking by - Diane A. Kelly
and Edited by  - Alex Neason and Pat Walters

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Articles - 

• A Rabbit, is a rabbit, is a rabbit… Not under the Law (https://zpr.io/ezUPRE36VZVk) by Schaffner, J. E. in The Global Journal of Animal Law
• Animal Rights Activists Are Acquitted in Smithfield Piglet Case (https://zpr.io/ayaV9gDneNsw) by Andrew Jacobs in The New York Times
• Meet the Activists Risking Prison to Film VR in Factory Farms (https://zpr.io/HEXdpf5Q7VAB)  by Andy Greenberg in Wired

Audio - 

• VR Puts Viewers Inside the Grisly Reality of Factory Farms (https://zpr.io/pMHq5RVkzUM3) a 2-part podcast by Wired

Our newsletter comes out every Wednesday. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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For much of history, tree canopies were pretty much completely ignored by science. It was as if researchers said collectively, "It's just going to be empty up there, and we've got our hands full studying the trees down here! So why bother?"

But then around the mid-1980s, a few ecologists around the world got curious and started making their way up into the treetops using any means necessary (ropes, cranes, hot air dirigibles) to document all they could find. It didn't take long for them to realize not only was the forest canopy not empty, it was absolutely filled to the brim with life. You've heard of treehouses? How about tree gardens?! 

This week, we bring you a story we first released in 2022. We journey up into the sky and discover forests above the forest. We learn about the secret powers of these sky gardens from ecologist Korena Mafune, and we follow Nalini Nadkarni as she makes a ground-breaking discovery that changes how we understand what trees are capable of. 

P.S. This episode is a layer cake of arboreal surprises (including the reappearance of a certain retired host. 

LATERAL CUTS:
From Tree to Shining Tree (https://zpr.io/4cHtDdYTuNxT): The episode that started this journey, where we look down instead of up.

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Annie McEwen
Produced by - Annie McEwen

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Videos - 

Inside the Fight to Save an Ancient Forest (and the Secrets it Holds) (https://zpr.io/XKipP2z4NFiM), by Michael Werner, Joe Hanson, and the PBS Overview team. We first learned about the magical world of the canopy from this beautiful video. It features Korena Mafune’s research up in the treetops, as well as the people who have dedicated their lives to saving what’s left of the old growth forests. We highly recommend checking it out! 

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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There’s something rotten in the cows of Denmark. And Minnesota. And Wisconsin. And Idaho. What could cause a previously thriving herd of majestic dairy cattle to stop drinking water and start drinking … urine? A Danish farmer calls a special investigator, who takes one look at his farm and nopes the heck out of there, refusing to return, citing “bad energy” coming from something nearby … a big building covered in Viking runes. 

It’s not magic. It’s an invisible force that’s far more common. And yet deeply mysterious.

This episode plunges producers Matt Kielty and Simon Adler knee-deep in a decades-old dairy farm controversy, rooted in a fundamental suspicion of the invisible streams of electrons that keep our world humming.

Special thanks to Dr. Liz Brock

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Matt Kielty and Simon Adler
with help from - Clara Grunnet and Rebecca Rand
Produced by - Matt Kielty
with help from - Maria Paz Gutierrez
Original music from - Jeremy Bloom and Matt Kielty
Sound design contributed by - Jeremy Bloom
Mixed by - Jeremy Bloom
Fact-checking by - Angely Mercado and Sophie Samiee
and Edited by  - Pat Walters

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Books -

• The Great Energy Transition: America from 1876 to 1929 (https://zpr.io/3PStsDgidpj5), by David Nye
• Powering American Farms: The Overlooked Origins of Rural Electrification (https://zpr.io/GdQ4pMCy4DAV), by Richard Hirsch
• Beyond the Barn – Dodging Cow Patties for 50 Years by a Country Vet (https://zpr.io/S8qS9HLEQBJe), by Don Sanders a memoir about his long career.

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Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [email protected].

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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In an episode first aired back in 2025 on our sister show, Terrestrials, we take you on a musical journey all about beavers. Few mammals have a bigger positive impact on the planet than the beaver. With its bright orange buck teeth, the creature is an expert engineer that brings life wherever it waddles and even fights fires. Our story begins in the Bronx river, once known as the  “open sewer” of New York City. After some humans decide to clean it up, we meet one of the river’s residents - José the beaver. We learn about the US government parachuting beavers out of planes into the mountains. And finally head to California where we discover how one beaver family saved acres of land from burning. 

Special thanks to author Ben Goldfarb, Christian Murphy from the Bronx River Alliance and Dr. Emily Fairfax. 

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana González and sound-designed by Mira Burt-Wintonick. Our team includes Alan Goffinski, Joe Plourde and Tanya Chawla. Fact checking was by Diane Kelly. 

Our advisors for this show were Ana Luz Porzecanski, Nicole Depalma, Liza Demby and Tovah Barocas.

EPISODE CITATIONS:
Books - 

• Eager: The Surprising, Secret Life of Beavers and Why They Matter (https://zpr.io/4QLuhrSMfurk), by Ben Goldfarb
• Beaverland: How One Weird Rodent Made America (https://zpr.io/3BbaViJK8Hk3), by Leila Philip’s

Videos - 

• Watch the US government drop beavers out of planes (https://zpr.io/y2JJPwwyr3Bp). 
• Watch Leave It to Beavers (https://zpr.io/JVGZYmNCTy6h), a documentary about beavers restoring rivers and wetlands.

Articles - 

• How reintroducing beavers can enhance ecological health (https://zpr.io/KNxz3MtKL9sV), by Madison Pobis, Stanford Report.
• Beaver Dams Help Wildfire-Ravaged Ecosystems Recover Long after Flames Subside (https://zpr.io/kAnjEUPvPUeJ), by Isobel Sandcomb, Scientific American 

HEY GROWN-UPS!

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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This week, in an episode we first aired in 2022, we flip the Disney story of life on its head thanks to a barrel of seawater, a 1970s era computer, and underwater geysers. It’s the chaos of life.

Latif, Lulu, and our Senior Producer Matt Kielty were all sitting on their own little stories until they got thrown into the studio, and had their cherished beliefs about the shape of life put on a collision course. From an accidental study of sea creatures, to the ambitions of Stephen J Gould, to an undercooked theory that captured the world’s imagination, we undo the seeming order of the living world and try to make some music out of the wreckage. (Bonus: Learn how Francis Crick really thought life got started on this planet).

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Latif Nasser, Matt Kielty, Heather Radke, Lulu Miller and Candice Wang
Produced by - Matt Kielty and Simon Adler
with help from - Arianne Wack
Original music and sound design contributed by - Matt Kilety, Simon Adler, Alan Goffinski, and Jeremy Bloom

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Articles - 

• Chaos in a long-term experiment with a plankton community (https://zpr.io/j6sYXKfDzPCG), by Benincà, E., Huisman, J., Heerkloss, R. et al. Nature 
• Chaos theory discloses triggers and drivers of plankton dynamics in stable environment (https://zpr.io/qHKENA3SJ8ML), by Telesh IV, Schubert H, Joehnk KD, Heerkloss R, Schumann R, Feike M, Schoor A, Skarlato SO. Sci Rep.

Books -

• Full House (https://zpr.io/pMQZfyPcRzD4), by Stephen Jay Gould
• Extinction: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? (https://zpr.io/pPVNugUKWpi4), by David M. Raup
• Rereading the Fossil Record: The Growth of Paleobiology as an Evolutionary Discipline (https://zpr.io/YBjJxuXjydPN), by David Sepkoski
• The Vital Question: Energy, Evolution, and the Origins of Complex Life (https://zpr.io/LzfueEqUWNHb), by Nick Lane
  Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature (https://zpr.io/KPZf57eEVMBX), by Francis Crick

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Doctor and special correspondent Avir Mitra takes Executive Editor Soren Wheeler, plus a live studio audience, on a journey from the operating room to inside the body to the farm to the sewers and back again—searching for answers to an alarming threat to humanity’s existence as we know it: antibiotic resistance in bacteria. 

This live show, performed in New York City and also in Little Rock, Arkansas, is part of a series we’re doing with Avir that we are calling “Viscera.” Each event is a conversation that takes the audience on a journey into a quirk or question or mystery inside of us, and gives them a visceral experience of the viscera within us. The previous installment of the series was called “The Elixir of Life.” (https://radiolab.org/podcast/the-elixir-of-life)

Special thanks to all of Little Rock Public Radio (especially Grace Zafasi and Jonathan Seaborn), Thomas Patterson, The Greene Space staff, CALS Ron Robinson Theater, Tom Philpott, Stephen Roach, Kate Shaw, Alex Wong, Maryn McKenna, and Kerri McClimen.

If you are a patients or a doctor, and you are interested in phage therapy, please contact [email protected] 

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Avir Mitra
Produced by - Jessica Yung
Sound design contributed by - Jeremy Bloom and Jessica Yung
Fact-checking by -Natalie Middleton

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Videos -

• Check out the video from the Viscera live show (and a bonus Q&A with Bruce Stewart-Brown and Steffanie Strathdee) on Radiolab’s YouTube (https://zpr.io/3BK9MqJYVKQA).
• A deep dive (https://zpr.io/WNQNfgiNvKeZ) on bacteriophages with Avir Mitra and Steffanie Strathdee, also on Radiolab’s Youtube..

Books -

• The Perfect Predator (https://theperfectpredator.com/) by Dr. Steffanie Strathdee’s telling of her battle against a killer superbug.
• Plucked (https://zpr.io/PudGMEuzgU9X) by Maryn Mckenna a detailed accounting of chicken farming’s practice of using antibiotics.

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A strange brew that's hard to resist, even for a modern day microbe.

In the war on devilish microbes, our weapons are starting to fail us. The antibiotics we once wielded like miraculous flaming swords seem more like lukewarm butter knives. But in this episode, originally released in 2015, we follow an odd couple, of a sort, to a storied land of elves and dragons. There, they uncover a 1,000-year-old secret that makes us reconsider our most basic assumptions about human progress and wonder: what if the only way forward is backward?

Special thanks to Steve Diggle, Professor Roberta Frank, Alexandra Reider and Justin Park (our Old English readers), Gene Murrow from Gotham Early Music Scene, Marcia Young for her performance on the medieval harp and Collin Monro of Tadcaster and the rest of the Barony of Iron Bog.

Can’t get enough of that sweet, sweet antibiotic resistance content? Then you’ll be over the moon about next week’s release. It’s the podcast cut of our most recent installment of our live show series called Viscera. This one features executive editor Soren Wheeler and Avir Mitra, and it’s all about how our millenia's-long war against bacteria came to a tipping point in this modern age.

Subscribe or follow our show on your favorite streaming platform and you’ll be the first to know when it drops.

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Latif Nasser
Produced by - Matt Kielty and Soren Wheeler

EPISODE CITATIONS:
Articles - 
Uncovering the multifaceted mechanism of action of a historical antimicrobial (https://zpr.io/mucw6Td6LBxT) by Harrison, F et al, 2026 bioRxv (PREPRINT). In this article Freya and her team describe the mechanisms under which Bald’s Remedy actually works.

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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If a species is horrible enough, do we have the right to kill it forever?

Seventy years ago, a nightmare parasite feasted on the live flesh of warm-blooded creatures in North America: the screwworm. That is, until a young scientist named Edward F. Knipling discovered a crucial screwworm weakness and hatched a sweeping project to wipe them out. Knipling’s seemingly zany plan to spray screwworms out of planes all over the continent— with US taxpayer money— succeeded, becoming one of humanity’s biggest environmental interventions ever. 

Today, screwworms have been gone so long that none of us in North America even remember them. But now, they’re coming back. And they’re forcing us to ask: in an era of climate change and rapid mass extinction— should we kill off a species on purpose? 

Special thanks to James P. Collins, Max Scott, Amy Murillo, Daniel Griffin, Phil Kaufman, Katie Barnhill, Arthur Caplan, Ron Sandler, Yasha Rohwer, Aaron Keefe, Gwendolyn Bogard, Maria Sabate, Meredith Asbury, and Joanne Padrón Carney

EPISODE CREDITS: 
Reported by - Sarah Qari
with help from - Latif Nasser
Produced by - Sarah Qari
Sound design contributed by - Sarah Qari
Fact-checking by - Emily Krieger

EPISODE CITATIONS:

**The latest information on screwworm outbreaks and precautions: 
screwworm.gov

Videos:

• Oral history interviews of Edward F. Knipling: here (https://zpr.io/njhMedFN5jsZ) and here (https://zpr.io/VQReQbfznCrq) 

Podcasts:

• Here’s a Spotify playlist (https://zpr.io/PNMEM274G7vh)  of all of our Golden Goose-inspired episodes!
• Sam Kean’s podcast The Disappearing Spoon – his episode about screwworms is called The Screwiest and Perhaps Most Original Idea of the 20th Century (https://zpr.io/UYf6dR2yG3eN) 
• Our episode on CRISPR & gene drives (https://zpr.io/UYf6dR2yG3eN) 
• New to Radiolab? Check out our Radiolab Starter Kit (https://zpr.io/QpPnrHAZVQLR)  playlist of all-time favorite episodes!

Articles:

• Sarah Zhang’s latest piece in The Atlantic: American Milk Has Changed (https://zpr.io/xebbdq2MWV4L) 
• Her most recent piece on screwworms: The ‘Man-Eater’ Screwworm Is Coming (https://zpr.io/ECmjCs7ScbS4) 
• Her initial reporting on screwworms: America’s Never-Ending Battle Against Flesh-Eating Worms (https://zpr.io/PNMEM274G7vh) 
• Gregory Kaebnick’s paper (https://zpr.io/yqNC3q5FbCcq)  about screwworm eradication in Science

Archival materials: 

• The USDA’s Screwworm Eradication Records (https://zpr.io/dY7zuVdGYKjf) contain lots of cool images and letters

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Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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