The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice

Mary Chan

  • 37 minutes 6 seconds
    Get Serious About Being a Podcast Guest with Julie Fry - EP 93

    What’s the right way to go about being a guest on other podcasts? When’s the last time you went on another show as a guest? As a podcast host, it’s easy to get bogged down in the day-to-day requirements of running a podcast. After all, you’re expected to find guests, record episodes, edit episodes, post everything online, and find fresh ways to get the word out.

    Here’s the good news: being a guest on other podcasts is an excellent way to market your own show. Need more convincing? In this episode, we spell out the benefits with Julie Fry, the CEO of Your Expert Guest. Julie and her team are dedicated to finding their clients opportunities to be podcast guests. Turns out, there are plenty of reasons for podcast hosts to moonlight as guests, from positive impacts on your mission and messaging to growing your mailing list. Julie is brimming with tips for streamlining your pitch and plan, highlighting your call to action, and building lasting relationships with hosts and audiences alike.

    Guest better (or better yet, start guesting) with Julie’s practical, insightful suggestions:

    • Why you need to nail down your guest goals before you dive in
    • What really works to get your target host’s attention
    • Why you need to purge your pitch of “I” statements
    • Key steps for the post-interview follow-up.

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: How do you figure out what success looks like when you're a guest on another podcast? What is that return on investment of your time? You know, a lot of people might think, is it really worth it, or is it something I can really do? Is that possible? Spoiler alert. Yes.

    In this episode, we're going to talk all about that, but we're also going to focus on what's changing today in the podcast guesting landscape that can really affect you and your podcast. So in this episode, you're going to hear from Julie Frey, the Founder of Your Expert Guest, a podcast visibility agency for women making an impact who want to be heard by their ideal client without spending hours on social media. We're talking effortless visibility by using strategic podcast guesting to grow your own podcast. 

    This is episode number 93 with Julie Fry on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    >

    MARY: Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad we get to reconnect and have this time together.

    [MUSIC ENDS] 

    JULIE: Me too. Thank you so much, Mary. I'm really excited for this conversation.

    MARY: Yes. Because I think there's a lot of, like, myths and things that people have just been doing because it's stuff that is kind of, like, secondhand now. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm a guest, or, oh, if I want to be a guest, I just do XYZ and ta da done. [LAUGHTER] But I feel like it's more than just that. There's strategy involved. And so I was like, ooh, you're the person that needs to come on to talk about podcast guesting.

    JULIE: I love that. Yes. There is a lot more to just saying, okay, I'm in a guest on podcasts.

    MARY: Yeah. I'm just gonna ask and everything will be okay, but okay. In the work that I do, there's two sides of being a guest. That's just being a guest and not having your own show. And so you're just going on different shows and talking about your message and promoting your work and stuff like that. But there's also the other side of it when you are a host and you have guests. So there's like, the hosting side of it, but in your line of work, you kind of have to deal with both. You know, you're working with people who want to be guests and those that also have their own shows to host them. 

    So I want to first dip into why it's really important for hosts who have their own shows to also be a guest, because sometimes I feel like hosts are doing all this work, and then they're like, well, I don't have time to be a guest. So lay that out a little bit about that importance of why it is important to also be a guest when you have your own show.

    JULIE: I am often surprised at how frequently I talk to podcasters who tell me that, one, it never occurred to me to guest on other podcasts to grow my own audience, or two, that they have a lot of imposter syndrome around reaching out to other podcasters to be a guest on their show. I'd be curious to see what you find in talking to other podcasters, but those are two of the main things that I hear podcasters saying. 

    So I can definitely speak to both of those. We work with clients that have their own podcast and guests on other shows, and then we also have clients that do not have their own show. For the folks that have their own podcast, usually they come to work with us. And because they either don't have the time nor do they have the desire or the they feel like they're just not well equipped…

    MARY: Yeah.

    JULIE: …to pitch themselves to be a guest. It is fascinating, this peek behind the curtain into human psychology, [LAUGHTER] but in terms of why a host would want to guest on other podcasts, and I'm sure you talk to a lot of your clients about this, is it is a tremendous way to reach new audiences for your own podcast, which, again, if you're guesting, if you have a podcast because you have a business, can ultimately end up driving more referrals or relationships or revenue into your business. 

    If you have a passion project, and that's your podcast, it still helps you connect with new listeners, new potential listeners, potential guests for your show. There's just a multitude of reasons of why you would want to do it if you have a show. But those are really kind of the driving factors.

    MARY: I totally agree with that. Especially when you were saying how people have, like, maybe that imposter syndrome where they're like, I didn't know I could be a guest. I'm like, yes, you already have all your equipment. I mean, you might as well go and be a guest as well. And to showcase your own show, you can talk about your own podcast on other people's podcasts. And I feel like there's, yeah, that piece that's missing from host's mind, where they're like, oh, that is a way of promotion. And I never, ever thought about that.

    JULIE: Yeah, I mean, it's really because you're already doing your own podcast, which is an investment of time and or money to keep it going. So if you are committing to that marketing strategy, then this is a really great way to run alongside of it and really maximize what you're doing in the podcasting space.

    MARY: Okay, so let's say someone's decided, alright, I'm going to be a guest. But you know, it's nice to go out and have a conversation with someone like we're doing right now online. That's great. But also we're busy people. A lot of the people that you work with, and I work with too, they're impact driven leaders. You know, they're busy, they have their business, they have their messages to send out and all this stuff. So, what does success actually look like for them when they are guesting? What is that goal that they have in mind?

    JULIE: Yeah, I think it's very specific to each individual. That's how we always start a new relationship. Or even a discovery call with a client is what are you hoping to accomplish by guesting on podcasts? And so we have a client right now where she has a book coming out in May. She has her own podcast, but what she is trying to do is grow the awareness of her book. And so we've talked about what sort of metrics that looks like at the end of a certain period of time. And that would be her definition of success with podcast guesting. 

    We have another client who's had a show since 2019 and it's very, very niche. But what her success metrics are is the number of discovery calls that she is generating… 

    MARY: Mhmm.

    JULIE: …as a result of being a guest on podcasts. So it really varies. It is personal. Some people, I mean, we once had a podcaster who worked with us to get on other shows and it was truly a personal development exercise for him. Like he had no goals other than he just wanted to go meet people, talk on other people's shows. Granted, he was a very wealthy individual and not many of us have those resources to just do a personal development exercises. 

    But it truly kind of comes down to you asking yourself, what does success look like at the end of a certain time period? Is it a certain number of shows? Is it a certain number of increased downloads for my own podcast? Is it certain number of new leads? Is it revenue goals? So it could be any number of things.

    MARY: I really love that because people sometimes think, you know, when they do things like that, they're like, what's the return on investment?... 

    JULIE: Mhmm.

    MARY: …What are the numbers? What are these download numbers telling me? But I'm like, There's so much more intangible value to having a podcast, to being a guest on a podcast. Like you say, that personal development piece. I mean, that doesn't have to be the main goal, but I think that should be a lot of people's goals, especially when they have a podcast. Because you're just practicing how to say something maybe a little bit differently this time, and then you can hear it back and feel like, oh, I can slightly change the words this way or the meaning this way, and just get a clearer picture of what you're trying to say. When you get to practice as being a guest on other people's shows.

    JULIE: Absolutely. We have a client, and one of the first things she said to us after maybe her fourth guest appearance, and she does not have a podcast, but she said, you know what I'm loving about this process is I'm getting so much better at my messaging and hitting the points that I want to make sure I hit in each interview. So, like you said, I think it pushes you to get better at whatever it is that you're talking about. So. Absolutely.

    MARY: Yeah, it's that, it's the process of saying things again and again, and it's that piece of practice that I find a lot of people are like, well, yeah, but how do I practice? I don't want to just keep saying the same thing over and over again. I'm like, but that's why you go on shows, so that you get to try out a different flavour of something on a different show.

    JULIE: Yes, yes. And part of the fun of this is you get to speak to different audiences, so different segments of listeners, and so you can tweak what you're saying so that you're not saying exactly the same thing over and over again.

    MARY: Yeah, exactly. Okay. You know, there's a lot of things that you can Google on how to be a guest. Yet, like we were saying, each show is very different. Everyone sets up their workflow very, very differently. But like, the recommendation for quite a while there was like, everyone needs to have a one sheet. You need to pitch a show with an email, attach the one sheet. It's something, if you Google, you'll probably find it. 

    But is that actually something hosts are looking for? Because I know as a host myself, I get bombarded with guest requests, and most of them, I say 99% of them are done very poorly. And I just hit the delete button on that email. So what is actually working to get a host's attention?

    JULIE: I'm very curious to know what of the 1% that you say yes to, what is it?

    [LAUGHTER]

    MARY: Well, it's usually because they haven't said I, I, I, this, like this is an X…

    JULIE: Yes.

    MARY: …or so and so is an expert at this and they can talk about xyz. I'm like, that's great, but why would my listeners care?

    JULIE: Yes, yes, that is what. Uh, in fact I just shared this in our Team Slack channel because somebody pitched me. It was, you know, a cold pitch to have me book a call with someone and it was so eye focused. And as a host, when they're reading a pitch, they don't care about you, they care about their audience and themselves and how you are going to inform them, educate them, entertain them, whatever the case may be. 

    So going back to, what do you need to do when you're pitching a host, the first thing that we always suggest is to go to their website. If it's not readily available, do some googling, figure it out, look at the website, read about the host, learn about what they're doing, who are their listeners, do they have any services that they provide that maybe you're a complimentary service provider? So really familiarize yourself with the host. Listen to their episodes, get a sense of what their energy is. So whenever I go on a show, I always listen beforehand. And if the host is like a real fast talker, then I will try to up, I'm a west coast girl, I'm a little bit of a slower talker, [LAUGHTER] but I will try to amp up my speed so that our energies match. Similarly, if they're very slow and methodical, I will slow down so that we're in a similar energy pattern. 

    But backing up to that. So you're listening to the episode you're wanting to see. Hey, if I go on this show, is it a podcast that I would be proud to share that I was a guest on? That should always be your number one metric of would this be a good fit for me and am I a good fit for the host? And making sure that there is a reason for you to guest on the show that can benefit the host audience. 

    The one sheet, and for those of you that don't know what that is, it's basically a one pager, says who you are, what do you talk about? What other podcasts have you been on or whatever their media appearances have you been on? It's a nice to have. It's not a must have, so if you don't have one, you don't have to let that stop you from reaching out to hosts. So those are just a couple of things to think about. Definitely approach from the standpoint of service and how can I be of service to the host?

    MARY: And, you know, people are always busy. So then I start thinking about, well, how much time does this actually take?

    JULIE: Again, that kind of comes down to your goals. So if you have very aggressive goals of your marketing a book, or there's something tangible that you are hoping to have come from your podcast appearances, you may need to do more guesting over a shorter period of time. And you knowing that most hosts book about an hour of time for you to record the episode, we usually recommend about a half an hour of prep time beforehand. So you're looking at an hour and a half per guest appearance. So then you can think about how much time you have to budget for that. And then there's, of course, if you are pitching yourself to be a guest on the show versus if you're hiring it out. So, you need to take those things into consideration as well.

    MARY: Yeah, that's right. On the show, though, we talk a lot about, like, audio quality and things that support hosting a show. So like I said earlier, right? Like, as a host, you already have the equipment. It easily translates into being a guest. But beyond those basics, like you were saying, you know, it takes usually people book an hour of the time, but what else can podcasters do that they aren't doing right now in the industry enough to prepare for a show? So what are those prepare pieces that we need to do that you aren't seeing people talk about enough?

    JULIE: That is a really interesting question. So the approach that we take when we're working with clients is it's kind of a 3R. You're guesting on shows to grow your relationships, increase your referral partners, or drive revenue. Like, those are kind of the three pieces that really can be a great outcome from podcast guesting. So when you're thinking about what your strategy should be is, which of those tenants are most important to you? And so if you're looking to generate, say, more referrals from your podcast appearances, then you're looking at you're really spending more time on the person's website. You're understanding how your business might relate to their business. If you're looking for more downloads or more subscribers for your podcast, what are some really unique ways that you can position yourself when you're pitching and then guesting on the show and then also staying in touch with the host afterwards? 

    We're definitely seeing a trend towards being more relational rather than transactional. There were a lot of agencies a few years ago that were like, we're going to book you on four podcasts a month. And that's a lot, for a lot of people. And I think that it shifted the industry to being more transactional, which is guesting for the sake of guesting. Whereas by scaling back the number of podcast appearances that you have and actually making them more intentional to see what you can generate from that relationship, like, how can you two support each other? It really has a lot longer tail than just appearing on a certain number of podcasts per month. So that would definitely be something I would think about and recommend when you're exploring your guesting strategy.

    MARY: Yeah, And I think a lot of people forget about that after piece. You know, they're like, okay, how do I get on a show? I'm gonna get on a show, then I do the interview. Oh, I'm done. But you're not, right? Like, there is still the after piece. So what does that look like in terms of, like, aside from social media, because we're getting bombarded with, like, social media these days, and a lot of people are stepping back from that. So what are some other ways that we can promote those episodes that people really aren't talking about these days?

    JULIE: Yeah, so there is the obvious, which is social media, of course. However, there are blog posts. So, you know, you can take your interview and turn it into a blog post. That's a great way to show the podcaster that you've guested on there, show some love. By linking back to their website. You can add it to your own website. Perhaps you have an about section or press appearance page that you can add the episode to. 

    I'm a big fan of including it in your email, to your email list or your in your newsletter. And one of the coolest ways that I have seen people use their podcast guest episodes is in discovery calls. So especially if you have a business where it's very relationship driven, maybe you're a life coach or a money coach, that if you have an episode where you're talking about things, that it's really important for a potential client to hear this, learn about it, read about it, you can point them to your podcast episode where you're talking about that. So those are a few ways to just continue to promote the show, get it out there outside of just social media.

    MARY: Yeah, because it's part of that relational piece you were talking about too, right? It's not just a one and done. I'm on to the next one. But hey, you've actually said some very important points that shouldn't just go away in the Internet. It can be used in other forms, especially to, like, spread your messaging and things that you teach or really value.

    JULIE: Yeah. One of the ways that I love to share episodes when I've been a guest on a show is when I share, and mostly I'm. I'm active on LinkedIn, not really any other social media platforms, is I will call out who the podcast is for. So, for example, on this show, you know, I would, are you a podcaster? Like, here's a great show you might be interested in. Here's why. 

    So I talk more about the podcast itself and then, oh, by the way, here's my episode where we talked about podcast guesting. I don't really like to shine the light on myself. I like to shine it on other people. So that's a way that works for me to kind of showcase podcast appearances and highlight the show rather than myself, which I feel like is a bit more effective.

    MARY: Yeah. And I think it points back to that relationship piece too, because a lot of women, too, are very hard on themselves about promoting themselves, right? And I myself am included in that. So when you said, like, call out who the podcast is for and then sort of just say, okay, yeah, yeah, and here's my episode on it, so you can, you know, listen, I really resonate with that. That is doable for me.

    JULIE: Yes, right?

    MARY: That is something where I'm like, I'm happy to promote the other show because of XYZ vs I was on this episode. You will enjoy. Because I talk about this, that, and the other thing.

    JULIE: I kind of comes back to what you were saying about. What you don't like about podcast pitches is when people are saying, I, I, I. So when you're on social media and you see a post about, hey, are you a podcaster? So lead with a question, which if somebody is a podcaster, they just might be more likely to continue reading that post because you're asking a question and inviting them to with it. So you're kind of allowing people to opt in to the content.

    MARY: Yeah. And to start that conversation too, especially with that question off the top, right? Then you're creating that relationship versus. Oh, it's another task I have to do.

    JULIE: Just spewing at people. 

    MARY: Yeah. Oh, I was on a show. I have to talk about it. Right. Okay.

    JULIE: Yes, yes, yes.

    MARY: Okay. So we've talked a lot about, like, what to do, but I know there's also like, what not to do. What is one thing that you see everybody is still doing and you're like, this has got to stop.

    JULIE: I would say the big one is when you just send the same message to every podcaster, regardless of their show. I know the people listening to your show are not going to do that, but the whole like, spray and pray approach, this just does not work. So please don't do that. That's really key because then you're being authentic. You're showing the host that you've done your research, that you understand who their audience is. And then we touched on it before, is just using all of that “I” language. It is such a turn off. So I would really suggest kind of leading with who the audience is, what the host does, pulling out details from their website or from the podcast that you've listened to that you can speak to in the pitch that shows them you get them.

    MARY: Yeah. And what about, like, trends? What are some podcasting trends that people are like, should we be testing these trends out?

    JULIE: Yeah. So a big one that we have been seeing since the beginning of this year, there is a lot more pay to play. So that means you send a pitch to a host, they respond back. And this actually just happened yesterday to a team member of mine. So it's a show that we had previously booked a client on and it's a decent show. It's in like, the top half of a percent. And the host replied back and said, hey, your Susie Q client looks really great.we now charge $950 per…

    MARY: What?

    JULIE: …appearance to be on the show. So we are just seeing a lot more of that. And I think it's coming from. And this is another trend is that there is just a lot more competition to get on podcasts. So what I will say for podcasters and why you have a really big leg up is that you do have a podcast. And so, if you are open to having a podcast swap where you go on one person's show and then they also appear on your show, then you do have a higher likelihood of getting that interview. 

    We'll say that is something that if you're open to doing that it really can generate better results for you. So that's definitely one trend that we're seeing. I think that there are some coaches out there that are encouraging people to monetize their podcasts in that way. It's really tricky because it's not really on the up and up with FTC standards…

    MARY: Mhmm.

    JULIE: …and how they're supposed to be disclosure. If you're paying to be a guest, there's a whole article I could send you if you wanted to put it in the show notes… 

    MARY: Yes.

    JULIE: …That might be interesting for people to see. So the other thing that we are seeing that's trending is it used to be that if you were going on a podcast, you would come up with some sort of free resource that you would gift to people at the end of your interview and people would get a lot of email signups from that. I think that just because email marketing has been around for, gosh, what are we going on now? Like 20 years? Maybe longer… 

    MARY: Maybe longer.

    JULIE: …That those. We're in 2025 now. Yeah, time flies that those email signups are going down. So one of the trends that we are suggesting is just to be very clear about your call to action. So if it is you want to get more, more listeners for your podcast, make sure that you're seeding your podcast throughout the interview. You're talking about it throughout the interview, and then at the end you're reiterating, you know, go check out my podcast and share the name. It's great to share those links of the email resources when you're providing the links for the show notes, but we tend not to recommend that as like your number one call to action for people anymore. So those are a few of the things that we're seeing both on the guesting and kind of the ROI side of being a guest on podcasts.

    MARY: Is there like that again, the psychological piece of consumers? Is there that layer of friction or is it just because we're so bombarded with so many things… 

    JULIE: Yeah.

    MARY: …that we don't want to sign up for? Another thing.

    JULIE: Yeah, I think it's email fatigue. I know we all our inboxes are overflowing. There's so much that we have in there. So it has to be something super valuable if you're going to get somebody to click through. It cannot just be a one page PDF of something that they could easily Google or now ChatGPT to get the answer to.

    MARY: Yes. Exactly.

    JULIE: The one thing that we are seeing work pretty well is if you have a, like a video training series that you might actually charge for. Maybe it's a lower price point. Like, if you had something about, you know, starting your own podcast and maybe you charge $39 or $49 for it. If you turn that into a free offering for people to get at the end of the interview, we are seeing that those are working.

    MARY: Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I guess that comes down to, like, your. If it's really worth it and it's high value, they will go out of their way and do that. Yeah.

    JULIE: And there's the psychological piece of, ooh, I'm getting something that's worth $50 for free. Yes, I will sign up for that.

    MARY: Mmm. True, true. There's a lot to do with, like, money and the economy and revenue. Like, I was just thinking back to how you were saying,... 

    JULIE: Mhmm. 

    MARY: …you know, the guest is like, pay to play. And I actually saw that a lot in the. The earlier years of podcasting. People were doing that, and then they stopped because they were like, oh, yeah, there's rules and stuff. So it's interesting to hear that it's back.

    [LAUGHTER]

    JULIE: Yes, it is. And maybe it is, uh, you know, an economy situation where people are feeling anxious or maybe they are already starting to see impacts to their revenue, so they're trying to generate a new revenue source. Could be that too.

    MARY: Yeah, yeah. Because there are, like, a lot of people who, yes, they like hosting a podcast. Yes, they enjoy it, and it can be a passion project, but it still costs time and money, and they want to recoup some of that. And so this might be that. Yeah, economy at play. And they're like, how can I make more money or just make money, period?

    JULIE: Yeah. But what's interesting to me is the podcast that we are seeing this from primarily is the hosts have this podcast as a way to market their own business. So they do definitely have a business that is generating revenue anyway, so this is maybe just another additional revenue stream for them.

    MARY: Oh, I see. Yeah, and that's, I think, where you're mentioning, like, the business coaches, whoever those are, are probably. [LAUGHTER] It's like the new thing, right? The new business coach trend...

    JULIE: Yes. Yes. 

    MARY: …I can see that connection there. Okay, so we know that podcasting, the whole industry changes so much all the time. Like, we were just saying, these are things that are coming up. And. But as you know, things are changing so fast. But in this moment in time, as we're recording this, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

    JULIE: Yeah. So I still think it is the number one way, whether you have your own podcast or you decide to guest alongside having your own podcast, it is one of the best ways to network and grow your relationships and meet new people, which then leads to new opportunities. It is such a unique platform to be able to just go deep with one person for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and really share your story. 

    So if you have a business, like, why did you start your business? What's your mission? What are your values? What sort of transformations are you helping your clients with? So there just are not many places outside of public speaking where you have someone's attention for that period of time. So I'm still really excited about the opportunity that podcasting and guest podcasting represents from that standpoint. 

    I also, from a getting on podcasts, or finding aligned podcasts for you, there are more tools than ever to make it really easy for you to find those, outside of Google. There are paid tools, there are free tools, but it's a growing space, and so it will save you more time when you are doing the research to try to find the show. So that's something else that's really cool about the research piece, because I know it can take hours and hours to find good fit shows.

    MARY: Okay. Podcasters are usually very budget conscious because, as I was saying, people are always looking for ways to make money from their show or even just, you know, recuperate that cost. So you're talking about these tools. What kind of tools? Which ones are free and which ones work?

    JULIE: Yeah, yeah. So we use a database, and it is called Rephonic. So they have a free trial. I think it's seven days. But it's a good way to kind of dip in there. You can search by keywords. They will have great profiles for each show as far as what their audience is, what types of guests do they have. You can see stats on estimated listeners. And so from a demographics and audience perspective, it's a really great way to just see, ooh, would this be a good fit for me? You know, as I mentioned, it's a free trial for a certain period of time, and then it moves into paid tiers. But if you're really serious about guesting, that would be a great paid tool to explore. 

    There are other databases like Listen Notes, where you can type in a show, you can see where the podcast ranks in terms of global popularity, and then over on the right hand side, it shows you shows that other people listen to. So that's another great place just to kind of dip your toe in the water for free and enter your own show in and see what comes up as far as aligned audiences. You know, ChatGPT, it's not great, but it's getting better. [LAUGHTER] And it kind of all comes down to the prompts. It still really likes to give you the most popular large podcasts in whatever industry you ask it about. But if you get very specific with your prompts, like, I'm looking for podcasts that are active and have a certain number of listeners. And, you know, for people who are writing a book, it will give you some decent suggestions. It might take a little bit of tweaking, but that's another good tool to find podcast ideas.

    MARY: Yeah, it's great, but you still have to have a human being on the other side of it.

    JULIE: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like, you have to, you know, go in, double check, because sometimes it will tell you shows that aren't active anymore. It will give you shows that don't take guests. So you do need to do your research. Cross those T's, dot those I's, make sure that the podcasts that you are pitching yourself to actually do take guests.

    MARY: Yeah, exactly. Julie, it's been amazing to chat with you. I've got a lot of notes that I've taken down. So thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time with me today.

    [MUSIC IN]

    JULIE: Thank you so much, Mary. It was really fun talking to you.

    MARY: You know, in the intro, I talked about what success looks like for being a guest on other people's shows. And some of the things that Julie mentioned was very similar, actually, to what I call the intangible values of a podcast. It's something that I talked about in episode number 69. And it actually reminded me of a client of mine right now because. Because podcasts are worth so much more than just the download numbers or how much money you can make from it. And again, another spoiler alert. Not very much at all, actually. 

    So if you are tying your podcast to this monetization strategy, and advertising, and making money from your podcast, that goes into just looking at those download numbers a lot. But creating a podcast has so many more intangible values, and I love that one of her clients was saying that it's just a personal development piece. And you know what? It's great because I have another client who did that, too. She started a podcast because she was like, I just want to meet people, and I think this would be a cool place to do it. And, yes, it can be done with the podcast. 

    But from the industry side, too, as you heard, I. I was really blown away by shows adding a cost to a guest spot so you had to pay to play, which, like Julie said, has some challenges with those FTC rules. And we'll add that link to the show notes so you can make sure you can click on that and read up on it. That's the FTC in the United States. But of course, here in Canada, I am Canadian, we have our own version The Competition Act, which regulates advertising and marketing. And the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards was actually updated in 2023 to include influencer disclosure, which I believe when you are paying someone, this can look like a contract, right, for a promoted product or service because money is being exchanged. So there's that fine line here. In this digital age, things are being updated. There are codes and standards to follow. So we need that transparency if you ever decide to charge someone a fee or their appearance on your show. 

    So I'd be curious to actually see where this is headed and to see if it even is going to exist more in the coming years because of the economy and people trying to find more ways of generating revenue. Because podcasting is tied to a business usually. But I'd also be curious, just like for your own podcast, is this something that you even thought of doing? Is this something you were actually practicing? I'd love to know. And yet, though, you know, what doesn't change through this whole changing landscape of ours is that being a guest on someone else's podcast really is that human connection that we talked about. Yes, for you as being the guest, but also that connection for a listener. Podcast guesting is a great way outside of social media for you to talk about your messaging, your values and your podcast. So this way you get to connect to potential new listeners for your own show. 

    So, yeah, what have you seen in your guesting appearances? Have you been a guest before? And if not, what's stopping you from being a podcast guest? I'd love to hear about it. As always, leave a message on my website with a voice note with that send voicemail purple button. Or as usual, you can drop me an email as well at VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com. 

    On the next episode, we're going to talk strategies for interview podcasts and leaning more towards this guest theme for your own show when you are figuring out who will be a guest on your show, when you're being selective on who you want to showcase, this has a huge strategy behind it. So looking forward to chatting about that with you next time on the show. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    24 March 2025, 9:00 am
  • 19 minutes 35 seconds
    Add Video To Your Podcast with Intention - EP 92

    Video has taken podcasting by storm, but how do you know if it's right for your show? As a podcaster, how are you interacting with and utilizing video? More and more, we’re hearing about creators tacking on this visual element, and platforms like YouTube and Spotify are eagerly showcasing all the success stories of podcasters giving their audience a fresh way to consume content.

    Sure, it’s relatively easy and inexpensive to get your hands on video recording equipment these days, and it’s straightforward to drop the final video into platforms like YouTube. But what about editing, and lighting, and additional preparations like your hair, outfit, and background? Video requires a lot of moving parts, and you still have to generate high-quality audio on top of all that. 

    In this episode, Mary breaks down the meteoric rise of video podcasts and encourages you to really ponder how adding video would affect your workflow and your budget. How will video get you closer to your podcasting goals, or is it a timesuck you just don't need? 

    Dig into the pros and cons of tackling this extra format:

    • How easy is it really to “just” add a video component?
    • How do you figure out if your audience even wants to watch your podcast?
    • Just how helpful will AI be for editing and marketing?

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    ​​MARY: Video. It's one of the biggest things that people talk about these days for podcasting, because it feels like video is all the rage in the digital world. For podcasting you see clips of those interviews on social media. You hear of big names creating a studio and filming their podcast. You also see people talking with microphones. Like that visual aspect of a podcast is people with microphones. So the lines of audio first podcasting versus video podcasts are kind of blurring. But are they really? What's driving this need for video? And is it worth it for you as a podcaster to create a video for your podcast?

    I touched on this a little bit in episode 89, that's the episode on Your Podcasting Questions Answered as my last episode of 2024. But I wanted to bring this topic back up for an entire episode of its own because, like I said, there's so much talk about video these days that I wanted to address it. But like anything in tech, things change quickly. So know that this is recorded in March of 2025, and I may have a new episode in the future for more video talk, because I'm sure this isn't the end of it, and I'm sure that there's a lot more things I want to add, but there's only so much that can go into this short little solo episode. So as of today, I figure, let's talk video podcasts as of right now, and are they right for you and how you can potentially integrate video into your podcasting workflow if you choose to record visuals as well. 

    This is episode number 92 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    >

    Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks for listening. Yeah, we're going to talk about video. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    The appeal of video for podcasting is growing. It's making a huge shift. And you know what? It actually started a while ago, too. Spotify started to offer video podcasts in 2020. So that's five years ago now. Toward the end of last year, Spotify reported that more than 50% of their creators are actively publishing videos monthly on Spotify. But video for podcasting isn't new. There's been a version of that called vidcasts, or videocasts that have been around since the early 2000’s. So why the push now? Why video podcasts today? 

    And it all has to do with tech, right? With the rise of TikTok, YouTube focusing on podcasting, which they started in about 2023, so two years ago now. And of course, the integration of easily recording video, it's so accessible for everyone now. Cameras on laptops, your devices, your phones, right? Easily bought camera gear that is, you know, accessible. You can go to a store and just pick up some stuff and it's a pretty good price point for the pretty good quality. Video's point of entry has gotten easier and easier over the years. So that brings us to today. It is easy to record your podcast online with platforms like Riverside, Squadcast, Zencastr, you know, even straight into your phone, and then easily take that video and drop it into YouTube, video podcast done, right? Check. But in fact, many of those platforms come with AI as well, so they can cut your interviews into bite sized little clips. 

    And some of my clients seeing all this on those video platforms like Riverside, Squadcast, Zencastr, et cetera, they're asking me about video for their podcasts. Should I be recording video too? They used it mainly just to facilitate the conversation with that video portion, but they never published the video, but now they're asking about doing that. So with all these new tools, it sounds like a no brainer. I mean it's already there. You can easily just record it with a hit another button, right? But is it really that easy? Or maybe the question is, is video really that effective for your podcast? 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So I want to make my first argument here that making a video podcast is not as easy as it sounds. It's not like, okay, we're hitting record anyway, might as well just record video for it. Bang, you're done. Video podcast isn't easy, especially in terms of creating one that is engaging. Because today in our world of video zoom conferences, all that stuff, are we really excited to see talking heads talk back and forth, does that make for a good video? 

    So sure, anyone can record video, but to have video of a certain quality that also has good audio, because if video doesn't have good audio, people are going to turn that off. So a good video with good audio doesn't come easily. There's a lot of setup and different workflow flows to make sure that not only are you recording your audio, but you are also going to be recording your video now, it's an additional step or multiple steps as, uh, you'll hear. You have to think about camera. Are you going to use more than what that camera is already on your laptop? Do you have to get a separate webcam? The quality of that webcam, the tech aspects of it all. Better lighting, especially when we're getting into daylight savings and it's darker later in the day and you might be recording episodes later in the day as well. Lighting is great. You need that. 

    What's your background gonna look like? Some people are still recording their podcasts in their closet. Do they want to have their closet in the background? And then talking about closets, what are you gonna wear? You gotta wear something from like, waist up at least, right in your video. So you gotta put on some decent clothes and if you're inclined to also put on some makeup and even wash your hair, make sure it's a hair washing night the day before you do your podcast, right? That's a lot of extra effort. 

    You might not have thought about all that, but the little details and nuances that it takes, not just your time, but that mental capacity to get ready for a video. I mean, you don't have to wash your hair, but I bet most of you will think twice about how you look. If you know there's going to be a video portion to any recording, right? We're gonna put in that extra effort to look a certain way because it's just human nature in us to want to look presentable on a stage that is going to be recorded. 

    So although there are many tools to facilitate the video recording process, it makes things easier these days. You still have to think about what's going to happen after you record that video. What happens next? So we're talking about how you're going to edit it. Will you be creating a  thumbnail? YouTube likes to see thumbnails. Do you have to go the YouTube route? What are their rules? Back to the editing. What sort of edits will you make? Will it just be the two heads side by side, or will you have multiple camera angles that you can make those smooth edits and jump from one person to the next? 

    There's also the publishing side, after the edits. Many podcast hosting companies don't host the video. So you'll have to take an additional step or two to upload that video to YouTube or Spotify or wherever you want to host your video podcast versions. And then we get to those video clips too, because video clips are part of that promotion, that marketing of your episode. Are you using those types of video for your podcast? Since you recorded the interview, the episode, you might as well use that clip, right? We're talking about reusing content, so get some video clips out on social media. Another thing to add to the list. But again, we'll get into more of those video clips later. But just to say first that although recording video might sound easy, there's a lot of steps you need to consider before hitting that additional record button.

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    I think the next thing we need to also consider is your listener. Is your listener going to be the same as a podcast viewer for the video? Sounds Profitable, it's an organization that I follow. They had some great research on the comparisons of audio versus video podcast consumption. They were saying that and music to my ears. Of course, the majority of podcast consumers listen mainly to audio versus video. However, in that same report, they did say the two audiences are not that drastically different. But I still beg to differ because sure, I can see how an audio listener could also be a podcast viewer. I've done that. Sometimes I'll see a podcast on YouTube, but then I'll go back to my podcast player app and listen to it there. 

    And I do know of people who prefer YouTube versus listening to a podcast. They like that the video is also passive. They can look at it if they want to. It's in the background. But one of the main differences I think that a lot of researchers might be missing here is those habits. Why one listener would choose one format over the other. And it's not just a audio first, video only, video passive. Some people like to look at faces sort of a thing, but actually their habits and why they choose one over the other. You know, think about it yourself. How and when do you use YouTube versus using your podcast listening app? Or just why do you use YouTube? You know, for me, I use YouTube for two very different things. One, I might be looking for very specific information. I'll scan what I need and I'll watch for that one small thing. 

    An example could be like cooking, right? I want to see technique or doing home renovations. I want to see the technique for that as well. There's that whole visual aspect so that those videos are great. I can look for exactly what I want in that video, that specific part, and then close that video and get out. The number two reason for me to look at YouTube is entertainment. I don't actually want to turn on the TV or Disney Plus or Netflix or whatever streaming service you have and be bombarded by all the options. The nice thing about YouTube is that it's mind numbing. You can just go there. And their algorithm's pretty good for choosing what you want to watch next. So it's very passive. And I think that's why YouTube works so well. 

    On the other hand, listening to a podcast on YouTube prevents me from multitasking, which is what I love. And I am an audio first person. And I feel like that's why audio consumption is higher on an audio only platform because you have that convenience of listening to podcasts without the video. And I don't have YouTube Premium. So if I want to listen to a podcast without the video, I still have to keep my screen on even though like, I put it in my pocket or something, the video is still playing in the background. But the beautiful thing about that convenience of audio only podcasts is that you can go for a walk, work in the garden, be at the gym, walk your dog, commuting. It's all about multitasking while listening to a podcast. 

    And with video podcasts it's hard, because I'm either starting and stopping because I missed something either visually or the audio isn't as great when there is a video only podcast and I have to rewind, or maybe I'm doing dishes and my hands are wet and I can't rewind anyway because the touchscreen doesn't work with wet hands. So I can't even rewind the darn thing. It's got a level of annoyance for long term dedicated listening, or at least for me. Is it for you? I'd love to know. 

    But okay, back to listeners. Audio podcast listeners. Each show is going to be very, very different. So for your show you need to gauge and research what's your audience's preferred platform and habits? Are they even asking for a YouTube feed? Do they use YouTube a lot for this long term listening? Not like that mind numbing stuff that I was talking to you about and how I use YouTube? Would they prefer to read something that's digestible like a blog on your website? There's other ways to consume that podcast content that this whole repurposing thing is good for. And video might not be a great repurpose for you for your podcast, but we can talk more about that later. 

    Essentially, what is the end goal of the video in relation to the goal of your podcast? Meaning if your goal of the podcast is to reach more listeners, sure, maybe video is the way to go. You have that great reach now with YouTube's search algorithm. But if your goal is to be a thought leader in your industry or to nurture your customers and clients, YouTube might not be those listeners preferred platform. It's about figuring out your listeners habits, how they listen, where they listen, and how can you create a show for their needs. Back to that foundational piece of starting your own podcast. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    Another reason why you're seeing more and more big names in the industry use video is because YouTube and Spotify want you to. They are pushing for this platform and they have big pull. So they are changing the way their algorithm works and how they are curating the space to include video first. And when they've created a space where it feels like now, you could be missing out if you don't do video too. That can hurt sometimes, right? You're like, ooh, but am I missing something? I want to get into this. Should I get into it? But let's get real. Just because a large tech company says video is the way to go, it doesn't mean you have to follow suit. 

    There are other ways to market and grow your show without having to resort to high tech, multi-camera, 1080p video files and oh my gosh, okay, 1080p video files. I was just thinking too that those files are huge in comparison to an audio only file. I'm talking about storage here. When you are doing video, you'll also start noticing a large uptake in your usage of data storage. Audio files don't take up a lot of space, but when you include that video portion and depending on how it's encoded, meaning like 1080p, 720p, all that sort of stuff, the quality of your video, how long the episode is, the longer the episode, the bigger file it is, you can start getting into very, very large files. 

    And podcasting media hosting platforms are not going to start hosting these very large files. That will cost them a lot of money. So that means you have that extra step of uploading the video as well to YouTube and Spotify, et cetera. Not a big problem with that extra step. But with that storage component, if you are sharing that file out and you have a team member who works on your podcast, it really can add up for you on the storage side, your Google Drive, your Dropbox, or wherever you store your files in the cloud, videos take up a lot of storage real estate. And I don't think people really realize the kind of snowball effect of that. Unless you have like unlimited data storage somewhere. Just remember, videos will take up a lot more storage space. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    The last thing I'll say, and not to poo poo, on the whole video thing, because I can see the draw. I understand that visuals help. It's also a very inclusive piece for people who need those visual aids. And people do like to see faces. I do get that. But what I'm saying is you don't also have to produce a video podcast along with your audio podcast. Sure, you can record the video during the podcast recording and then use that to create the little teaser clips or the promotional clips to promote the episode and market your show. That's awesome. But that takes time too, making those clips. But again, I know there's also time shortened with the use of AI. So are those AI tools worth it as well? You might have to pay, pay something else. You got to pay out to use some of these tools. So are those AI clips any better than human selected clips too? 

    But again, if it's human selected, you're paying in time to make that happen as well. But in the short time that I've been doing a little bit of video testing for some of my clients to create those clips and market their show with it, the AI clips aren't as good as the human chosen clips. Sometimes the AI ones are choosing these weird clips. That wasn't actually the main thought of the podcast. They may have mentioned the word a few times, but it wasn't the main theme to really draw out what a listener is really honing in on. 

    And at the same time, even though you let the AI tools do the work, you still have to go in, adjust the captions for spelling. You know, everyone's names is spelled differently. You got that to look through too and make sure that those clips are still on brand to your podcast. So there needs to be a human element to review the work of AI. But again, I can see the draw of using AI too. There is the benefits of time saving or if you don't have the funds to hire a team, they can essentially be a small team member for your podcast. But yet you still have to do the research on how effective video is and using AI and video is for your podcast. Do video clips convert those viewers into podcast listeners? Is the time you put into it actually worth it? And I think that's a conversation for another day because I'm going to end this episode here. 

    So let me know. Are you using video for your podcasts? How do you watch video podcasts if you even do like? I'm not a video podcast watcher, so let me know if you are. And what's your draw behind that? Why do you like watching video podcasts? Drop me a voice note on my website VisibleVoicePodcast.com or email is always a great way too to get a hold of me, VisibleVoicePodcastmail.com I'd love to hear your thoughts on this whole video podcast. Are you a watcher? Are you not? Sort of debate.

    [MUSIC IN]

    Next time on the podcast, we’re talking visibility. how being a guest on someone else’s podcast can make a huge impact, especially for women podcasters. Julie Fry is joining me on the show. She’s the CEO of Your Expert Guest and you’ll learn about what’s currently working in the industry when you are a guest on a podcast and how integral it is if you host your own show to also be a guest on other people’s shows. So join Julie and me on the next episode as we talk more about what’s working in the industry today about podcast guesting. And what are some of those things that everybody’s still doing, but we can move on from. So let’s improve your guest experience with Julie Fry and me on the next episode. I’ll talk to you then!

    [MUSIC IN]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    10 March 2025, 9:00 am
  • 46 minutes 36 seconds
    Podcast Marketing Without Social Media with Amanda Laird - EP 91

    How do you know if social media is really worth it? Social media inundates almost every aspect of our lives these days, from communicating with friends to deciding what to listen to, watch, or buy—all the way down the line to actually listening to, watching, and buying it. So, of course, many podcast creators worry that leaving social media behind is an enormous marketing faux pas.

    But what if it isn’t? Amanda Laird is the marketing pro behind Slow and Steady Studio. She wields more than two decades of PR and management experience to help small businesses and non-profits do just enough marketing to reach their goals in ways that make sense for them. In this episode, Amanda shares plenty of tips for figuring out whether that social media slog is paying off.

    You’ll discover the link between podcasting and social media, as well as the first steps to determining exactly how social media marketing serves your podcast—and how your podcast serves you—so you can make strategic decisions that drive success rather than drive you crazy.

    Hear Amanda’s insights on how essential social media really is to podcast marketing:

    • What benefits are social media providing for your show?
    • Where does podcasting fit in your marketing sandwich?
    • What is your podcast’s consistent call to action?
    • Should you consider moving your podcast to Substack?

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: There's no shortage of distraction these days. We are digitally connected, and there's so much we can learn or be entertained by, especially from the world of social media. And today it's even more heightened because of all the research into how social media is playing a negative role in our mental health, and especially with kids growing up in this digital, like, hyper digital age. You know, recently, last year, there was Jonathan Haidt's wildly popular book called The Anxious Generation, how it connects social media to the epidemic of teen mental illness. 

    Yet, as podcasters, we use social media without thinking much about it sometimes. We use it to promote our show. And if you have a business or organization that's tied to the podcast, that you need to talk about your message too, and it's all done on our screens, and it feels as if social media is the number one way to market the show, or sometimes even, like, the only way to market your show. So as a podcaster, we might think without social media, your message might sink without it. However, there really are alternatives. We marketed way before social media even existed. And so I've always thought, why can't we still market today like we did back in the day before social media existed? 

    So on today's episode, we're talking about marketing without social media with Amanda Laird. Amanda is the Founder of Slow and Steady Studio and a marketing communications strategist. She has more than 20 years of experience in communications and PR and management, and now helps solopreneurs, small businesses, and nonprofit organizations do what she calls “just enough marketing to reach their goals their way”. 

    And I love the idea of just enough marketing because I worked with her on one of her Clarity Sessions about two years ago. You know, my side of the story, which I tell briefly on the episode, is basically realizing how social media actually plays a role in my business and podcast, or actually the lack of a role social media actually plays and what I can be doing instead of social media. But also knowing it might play a little part in what I do. So I am still on it. So it's about talking about how to best use my time and stop that doom scrolling. 

    Amanda and I also get into Substack. I really wanted to highlight this with her because it's the new shiny object for podcasters and the Internet. So Substack is heavily using podcasting and video on their platform. So if you're wondering about Substack, listen through to the whole episode and how that can or cannot integrate with your podcast. So, yeah, if you're curious or just wondering if you should be giving up on social media or even figuring out if you want to do less on these social platforms. Today's episode is for you. 

    This is episode number 91 with Amanda Laird on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    >

    MARY: Amanda thank you so much for coming on the show and rescheduling with me due to my sick brain fog. You know how it is.

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    AMANDA: Thank you for having me, Mary. I will always find the time to chat with you.

    MARY: Oh, thank you. I know, like, we were, I was thinking back before this, I was like, oh, when did we first, like, meet online? And it was like, when I first started my podcast production business, was it freelance? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I don't remember how we were connected, but we were connected. And I was like, oh, sparks are flying.

    AMANDA: That was many, many years ago, too.

    MARY: Yeah, that was like, 2018, I believe.

    AMANDA: I think it was.

    MARY: Anyway, things have shifted in more ways than one between, like, what we do and social media these days. And that's what we're going to talk about. So I always say podcasting is not social media because sometimes people are like, well, isn't it social media? So I just want you to give the lay of the land, first of all, and help us define, what is social media?

    AMANDA: Oh, is this not the question of our times Mary? Okay, so I went to Wikipedia. Wikipedia defines social media as, interactive technologies that facilitate the creation, sharing, and aggregation of content among virtual communities and networks. So in simple terms, that's your Facebook, your Twitter, your X, your Blue Sky threads, Instagram. These platforms that have become, like, the backbone of our communications personally and professionally. Where we are logging on and posting, there's text, videos. Oh, I can't believe I forgot TikTok on that list.

    MARY: Oh, yeah.

    AMANDA: Videos, images, whatever content we're posting on these platforms that's then distributed to our friends, followers, whatever the platform calls it.

    MARY: So then would podcasting be under that category?

    AMANDA: I don't think so. Okay. I'm taking a pause. 

    MARY: Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: I mean, okay, in some ways, I guess you could argue that perhaps it's social media, but at the same time, I don't think it is. Because podcasting is distributed to a lot of different channels, right?Like, when I upload my podcast to my podcast host, then it's going out to Apple podcasts. It's going to, you know, all the places where people listen to podcasts. And I think one of the defining differences, too, with social media, and I'm putting, like, my Old PR school hat on when I say this like also with social media or what the promise of social media was way back at the turn of the century was a two way conversation.

    MARY: Yeah, I think that too…

    AMANDA: Right?

    MARY: ...That's what I was thinking.

    AMANDA: Yeah. And so yes, I do think that podcasts do facilitate a two way conversation, but that conversation isn't happening on the podcast, right? Like we put the podcast out into the ether and then that two way conversation might actually happen on social media that the podcast instigates, but it's not happening like on the podcast… 

    MARY: Yeah.

    AMANDA: …if that makes sense.

    MARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so then, now that we can sort of have like, a good foundation of what that is. Like marketing existed before social media. You know, we were marketing snake oil back in the day, right? So like, how can we market today without social media? What foundations should we be looking at first? What should we be considering?

    AMANDA: These are great questions and definitely some of the most topical questions with my clients and in communities that I'm a part of, running a mostly online business. First, before I dive into some of the practical things, I just really cannot say enough that if you want to market your business without social media, or put it another way, if you don't want to use social media to market your business, then that is 100% possible. I really think, and I'm thinking about what I just said a couple minutes ago about how social media has become such a critical part of our professional and personal communications, but as social media has risen in popularity, we have all kind of forgotten that yeah, there is other ways to do this online and offline as well. 

    So if you are feeling like you're getting that little intuitive hit that you'd like to do less social media marketing or you would like to leave entirely for relying on social media, it's 100% possible. So that said, whenever I'm chatting with somebody about marketing with social media, without social media, or really any tactic for that matter, I think the first place to start is to get really, really clear about what role social media marketing is currently playing in your business. So when I'm talking about marketing communications in my framework, which I like to call the Just Enough Framework, we have layers of different marketing objectives that we want our marketing to achieve for us, right? We and this very similar to a classic marketing funnel. So this will likely feel familiar to anybody who's familiar with the funnel.

    MARY: The funnel, the funnel. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: I mean, we could do a whole other episode on the funnel, right?

    MARY: You'll have to come back for that. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: So we are never ever just marketing for the sake of marketing. Like marketing is this great big vague umbrella term. But when we think about, okay, what are we actually trying to do when we're marketing our business? Number one, we're trying to attract new clients and customers, build an audience, build awareness of our brand. Then once people know who we are, we want them to connect with us in some way, right? This is where your brand story comes into play. This is where content marketing or even just your website comes into play so people can understand your business, understand your service offerings, your products, your point of view, what makes you unique, differentiates you from your competitors. How do I work with you? All of those good things. 

    Some, you know, common term is like, this is the know, like, and trust type layer of your marketing. And then once people know who we are, once they have decided that we can solve their problem or meet their needs, right? Then it links in with our sales process. So we have marketing tactics that are designed to sell our products and services. 

    So when you're evaluating your social media, I like to go through all of the ways that we're using social media and kind of map them to those objectives, right? Like, are we using social media to find new clients? Are we just using it as a way to share our point of view or to talk about our approach or what makes us unique? And are we using some of those social selling tools that are available on these platforms? Or is there a call to action that's like a buy now kind of call to action in your social media content? 

    Now, I did a workshop about this recently and as I was talking about this, I could just hear that David Beckham meme from the Beckham's Netflix documentary where he was like, be honest, be honest. [LAUGHTER] Because what I see a lot is we think social media is doing one or more of those things that I just outlined, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's not actually moving the needle in our business. And so this is why it's so important to start at ah, this point. Because number one, if it is contributing to building awareness, connecting and converting clients, then you need to plan how you are going to fill those gaps. And if you take a look at your social media and you audit your social media and you realize, oh, wait a second, it's not really doing any of these things or it's not doing what I thought it was, then you want to maybe take another step back and look at the bigger picture and think, okay, well, how actually are my clients finding me?... 

    MARY: Yeah, exactly 

    AMANDA: …How am I marketing? Because what I have this. It's. I mean, I'm kind of laughing because it seems so simple, but I've had countless conversations with folks who are like, oh, well, social media doesn't do anything for my business, but I don't know what else to do. And then when I start to pull at those threads, oh, it turns out that actually they are doing a lot of marketing. Often it has to do with word of mouth, referrals, relationships, networking. But we have just come to equate marketing with social media. And even beyond that, I feel like we have come to equate it with Instagram in particular, especially for online businesses. And people are actually doing a lot of marketing outside of social media and then they don't even realize it because for some reason they think it doesn't count.

    MARY: Yeah, because they're like, oh, if you have a business or you have an organization or you want to market something, you have to be on social media. You have to have an Instagram account or you have to be on LinkedIn. And if you don't have that, you're not an established legitimate business. And so like, I think we get that fear of, oh, well, we, we want to look professional. So we, I guess we have to be in all the places, you know? So when you're talking about tactics, I think a lot of people are like, tactic, social media, check. 

    AMANDA: Mhmm, Mhmm.

    MARY: So is that the approach for tactics? Like what, what is this?

    AMANDA: Well, you know, one thing I will also say too is like, I have a lot of empathy and you know, I'm a small business owner too, right? So I have been in this place myself. I have done all of these things before. But what I, I talk a lot about, like social media also feels like we have a lot of control over it in a way that maybe some other marketing tactics feel like we have to relinquish a little bit of control. Like if I'm relying on referrals from my past clients or my network, well, doesn't that just mean that I have to wait for Mary to recommend me to her clients…

    MARY: Right.

    AMANDA: …and there's nothing I can do? Oftentimes, especially with solo service provider, especially women entrepreneurs, although I don't think it's expensive, exclusive to women. We are like freaking out about our business in some way and committing random acts of marketing…

    MARY: Random acts of marketing, yes. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: …Which is just like the totally unstrategic, like posts that you just throw up on social, right? Or maybe you just throw it up there on social where you're like, my books are open. I've got two spots available. And now we can cross marketing off of our to do list check, right? We get that dopamine hit the likes. If we're lucky, people see it…

    MARY: Yes.

    AMANDA: …And then the likes and the shares and the comments start rolling in. And now we feel good, right?

    MARY: Right, right.

    AMANDA: Which is part of the reason why giving up social media maybe feels so scary, right?

    MARY: Yeah. I mean, I remember I booked a session with you. We worked together, I think, like, two years ago now, and you had asked me that same question, and I was like, well, I think I'm on social media, but I don't really like it, but I'm on there. And actually I was looking back, I was like, oh, actually I get, like, a lot of my work through referrals, or actually, Google right now is working for me. So then you were like, then why are you on social media? I was like, oh, yeah, right. Why am I? [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: It's true, because, half of the reason why I even started my business was because I was so tired of, like, just seeing social media at the top of every listicle for how to market your small business, right?

    MARY: No, it doesn't have to be that way.

    AMANDA: Exactly. And like, I don't want to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist here, but, like, think about it. Who is benefiting from our belief that we have to be on social media? It's not my business. My business isn't making money from that. But even if we're not investing dollars into ads on platforms like Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, if we're not doing any advertising, we're still paying with our time and our attention and our data…

    MARY: Information

    AMANDA: …Exactly. And when you're a small business owner, there's the time that you spend actually doing your social media marketing, and then there's the time that you spend fretting about doing your social media marketing, right? [LAUGHTER] So how much time and energy are we even like? It's. It's exponential how much we're paying for these platforms.

    MARY: So let's switch then to podcasting itself is also a form of marketing. So then I feel like there's this catch 22 of, well I also have to market the podcast, which is my marketing vehicle, so then…

    AMANDA: Mhmm.

    MARY: …what the heck should I be doing? [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: Yeah, that's such a great point. And this is something that I see lots of folks bumping up against, right? And I would say, yes, podcasting, but any type of content marketing, whether you're making videos or you're making YouTube videos, or you're writing blogs, or you've got freebies, or any type of content marketing, needs to have a distribution strategy. So it's that planning and that thinking through the tactics has to happen twice. Like, we need to understand, okay, if I'm going to start a podcast or I'm hosting a podcast, or I'm producing a podcast as part of my marketing strategy, where does that fit into my marketing sandwich, as I like to call it?

    MARY: Oh, I love your sandwich analogy. Makes me hungry all the time too. Do explain.

    AMANDA: Well, yeah, I mean, this is just my alternative to the funnel, right? Instead of thinking of it like a funnel, I think of it like a sandwich. Because we can put different layers. So that attraction, connection, conversion layers, and how much we put into each layer really depends on the resources that we have available to us. What are our goals, what is our energy like for marketing? You know, if you're running a small business, sometimes you run into a problem where your marketing was actually successful, successful, and now you're booked and busy and now you don't have time to market, right. So maybe you need to pull back a little bit on how much you're marketing, right. So that's why I like the sandwich, because it can change. It evolves quarter to quarter, year to year, however you kind of plan what the seasons in your business are. 

    So thinking about your podcast, where in your sandwich does the podcast fit? Is this how you are trying to actually go out there and find new clients? Or once your clients have found you through other channels, through that visibility layer, through that attraction layer, visibility tactics or attraction tactics. Now that I know who you are and your business sounds interesting and maybe this is somebody who I could learn from, maybe this is somebody who could help solve my problem, then I'm going to tune into the podcast and it's more of an it's more about connection, right? So you have to really understand what the big picture strategy of the podcast is first, right?

    MARY: Yes, totally.

    AMANDA: Number one. And so if you know, you're a solo podcaster and you're sharing your IP or sharing your point of view on your podcast, then chances are that's probably more just in the connection piece right?

    MARY: Yes, the relationship building podcast.

    AMANDA: Exactly. But maybe your podcast has guests, and so you have a strategy around who you're going to invite to talk on your podcast, because then they're going to share it with their community and it's going to share it with their clients and their networks, and then that will bring people into your ecosystem. So that's step one. And then once you understand the role that your podcast is going to play in your marketing and how it's going to serve your business. Okay, now we need to kind of go through and make your podcast its own little sandwich, right?

    MARY: Another sandwich. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: Yes, exactly. It's a sandwich in the sandwich. And you need to think through those same things. Like, okay, well, how. How are people gonna find out about this podcast?

    MARY: Yeah, I think people jump to that always first.

    AMANDA: 100%. Like, I have talked to a lot of people because I don't currently host a podcast, but I have in the past, right? So, people often ask me questions about podcasting. Although podcasting in 2018 was definitely different than podcasting in 2025. But all that to say, you know, people think, especially when people are like, well, I don't want to market on social media, so I'm going to start a podcast. And it's like, okay, great idea. So how are people going to find out about the podcast? You need to have that distribution strategy. 

    So what are some of the ways that people can find out about your podcast outside of social media? Number one, having an SEO strategy for your podcast, right? I that's the right fit, maybe making sure that you know all the places in your podcast descriptions and your episode titles that those things are optimized for what your potential clients might be searching for, right? Making sure that your website is also aligned. Like you had said that Google's and search traffic is bringing you a lot of clients these days. So making sure, like, if that's the right fit for your business, right? Making sure that people know that you have a podcast when they come to your website. Like, that seems so simple, but sometimes it is hidden, right?

    MARY: Yeah, it's hard to find.

    AMANDA: So putting it front and center, right? Being a guest on other people's podcasts, right? People who like podcasts listen to podcasts. So if you want people to listen to your podcast, then, you know, you could try being a guest. I mentioned earlier having a strategy around guests, a guesting strategy, and then working your network, working your referrals. Like, are there folks that you could do ad swaps with? Are there folks that you could do feature swaps with? There's so many options for low cost, like newsletter classified ads these days. And this is something that I've had a lot of success with in my business for building my audience. 

    And so some well placed ads that are aligned with your exact target audience is a way to kind of get the word out with your podcast. But this also goes back to really being clear on the role that your podcast plays in your business. And so if I find out about your business and your podcast is the place where I'm going to connect and I'm going to build that relationship with you as a potential service provider or as a customer, then you need to make sure that all roads lead to the podcast, right?

    MARY: All roads do, hopefully. Yep.

    AMANDA: And then once I get to the podcast, then what happens next? Because I love podcasting. I think it can be very effective for a serve, uh, for a business as a marketing channel. But you also don't want it to be like an escalator to nowhere. Once I listen to your podcast, now what happens? What do you want me to do? And so making sure that on your podcast that you have really clear next steps and a really clear call to action, telling people what to do now. Do you want people to sign up to your newsletter so that you can use email marketing to sell to them? Do you have, like, a strategic freebie that you use, like, download the template that you can, you know, fill out as you listen to this episode? That's like an old Amy Porterfield play from, like, way back in the day that I still think is very helpful, right? And you know somebody who I think is very good at this is my friend Amelia Hruby, who coincidentally hosts a podcast called Off The Grid, and it is all about marketing without social media…

    MARY: She's great. I was on an online conference with her, too. She's great.

    AMANDA: …Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, she's great. But what she's also really good at is having that consistent call to action, right. So as soon as you tune into her podcast, she's suggesting that you download her toolkit. Anytime she's a guest on a podcast, the call to action is download the toolkit, right. And then it puts you onto an email list so she can stay in touch with you, right? That's not to say that that's the strategy and the template that we should all be following, but my point is, is having that, like, clear next steps. Once they've listened to this podcast, what do you want people to do next?

    MARY: Yeah, and that leads me actually to. And I know you were saying this isn't like the thing that everybody should. Be doing, but we are talking newsletter, email list. And the big thing right now is Substack. People are thinking, okay, if I move my newsletter to Substack and they do podcasting, it's like an all in one thing, and I can just easily do it all in one place and have it done and have that communication with listeners on there. So what are your feelings about Substack for a streamlined approach for podcasting and newsletter?

    AMANDA: Mhmmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Well, I will caveat this by saying that I have a lot of opinions on a platform that I do not use myself, [LAUGHTER] at least not as a publisher. But I mean, you're right, like Substack does have the functionality that you can publish an email newsletter and host a podcast at the same time, right? And I think I'm correct when I say that also it's free.

    MARY: Yes, I looked it up. It is free.

    AMANDA: Mhmm. It is free. So very compelling. Yeah, it is very compelling. Value proposition from Substack, right? And so, you know, Substack has really been hailed in the last couple of years as kind of this alternative to social media. And we're going to get on Substack and then we're going to start making, you know, six-figures a year based on our content. And in my experience and with the folks that I work with, that, that is not actually what happens. In fact, you know, more and more these days, Substack itself is starting to look a lot like an all purpose social media as well, right?

    MARY: Yes. I was just thinking about that because you. We were talking about what is social media, and then we're like, okay, comments and stuff. So they have that in the platform where you can chat and have like, a forum and comments.

    AMANDA: Exactly. And you know, maybe that's something that is appealing, right? But I mean, I'm no fun, because it's always going to come back down to like, well, what are the objectives?... [LAUGHTER]

    MARY: Yeah.

    AMANDA: …What are you trying to do, right?...

    MARY: Yes. Yes.

    AMANDA: …And I'm not going to let you just jump into the shiny new thing until we have a really clear understanding of the business case, right?... 

    MARY: Yeah.

    AMANDA: …And how this is actually going to drive things forward. And what do you need? What types of functionality do you need, right? And like I listen to podcasts on the Substack app. I do actually, usually I listen to them on the Substack app because I'm too lazy to like set up the RSS feed and Castbox, right?

    MARY: Yeah. Because it's another form of like layer of friction that you got to do. So like you use the app.

    AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. Which I mean, I. That's what Substack likes, right. Because once again, just because we're not paying with our dollars on these types of apps, like they wanna. It's in Substack's best interest for us to spend more time on the app, right? And which, when you also start to unpack, like, all the ways that it has started to act like a social media form with notes, with, they've introduced videos, they've introduced, I don't know if that this is something that's, like, widely available on the platform or if it's just with certain creators or certain partnerships that they've been doing, like, live feeds and, like, live streams and things like that on Substack. 

    So Substack wants you on their platform and they want you to stay there for a long time. And so now they are implementing features for you to do that. Now, all of that to say, right? Like, yeah, maybe Substack is a good place for you to publish your podcast and a newsletter, and it's streamlined, and it's all in one. But I would also really just invite you to interrogate, like, what you want out of that too, because from my understanding, like, Substacks analytics is shit.

    MARY: Yeah. From what I understand, too, yeah.

    AMANDA: Yeah. And you know, I have clients who have had a really hard time trying to figure out, okay, like, who's actually, like, reading my newsletter, clicking my newsletter, and I have no idea what the podcast stats are like, right. Also, think about, okay, going back to what role does your podcast play in your business, right?

    Where I have seen Substack work is when the thing, the product, the offer, whether it's paid or free, is whatever is happening on Substack. Like, I'm going to create a newsletter, I'm going to host the podcast there, we're going to have comments, we're going to do notes, we're going to do whatever. And everything happens here on Substack. And you're not now trying to pull somebody away from Substack to, like, buy a service. 

    MARY: Yeah. 

    AMANDA: You know what I mean?

    MARY: Yeah.

    AMANDA: And this is where I think things start to get tricky. And I. I kid you not that. I have worked with multiple service providers who started their Substack, bought into the promise of Substack, that you can publish here and make money from your content. And as a service provider who's creating content to market my business, I mean, yummy. I want that. I'm working so hard, so if I could get, you know, a couple hundred people to pay me $5 a month, like, that sounds amazing, right?

    MARY: That's a great piece of income right there.

    AMANDA: Exactly. I would love that. However, I'm not a content creator. That's not my business model. I'm a service provider, right?

    MARY: Aha.

    AMANDA: And so once you start to then be like, okay, well, when do people buy the Substack? And then if they're paying members of my substack, how do I sell to them? How do I now use email marketing? Because we also conflate email marketing with newsletters. And like, newsletters is like, the content marketing, it's like the information update date. It's the know, like and trust piece or it's like the product, right? Like if you're publishing on Substack, whereas email marketing is a conversion driver. It's driving sales. It's the email that has the like, buy now button, right? 

    MARY: Mhmm.

    AMANDA: It's the 27 emails I get from Old Navy with my super cash codes in it, right?... 

    MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER]

    AMANDA: …Where it's driving me to make a purchase, right? So you have to have a really clear understanding of, okay, if you're especially if you’re a service provider, how is this going to fit into my strategy and into my sales strategy and into my business model, right? So I would caution, caution folks who are feeling or hearing the siren call of Substack, right, to really think deeply about the strategy and to try not to get caught up in Substack’s marketing, right?

    Because, you know, they're going to promise you the world. And Substack is. I mean, maybe has Substack reached a tipping point? Maybe? You know, maybe it's gotten to a point where, you know, we can't all get rich on Substack anymore potentially. But unless you're really willing to put the work into Substack, it's, it's not going to do what it says on the tin. And if you're a service provider or you're using this as a way to promote other revenue streams or other lines of business, you'll probably just end up frustrated. So just keep your ESP, whatever email service provider you're keeping, you don't have to jump ship.

    MARY: Yeah. The other thing too, I was looking into Substack just because I have two clients in the past month who were like, should I go on to Substack? So I, you know, did a little bit of research and tried to figure out, okay, how does this work for your podcast specifically? And the one thing that I couldn't find on their website is, okay, if I'm done with Substack, can I redirect and have a 301 redirect for my feed? And they have not given any option for that. So that tells me that you don't own your podcast after this. Substack owns that feed,... 

    AMANDA: Ooo.

    MARY: …and if you want to move off of it, you'd have to build the RSS feed all over again because it tells you how to import one, but it doesn't tell you how to export one.

    AMANDA: Very interesting.

    MARY: So that's usually my red flag of I don't think people should move their podcast there yet.

    AMANDA: Yeah. Yeah. You know, Amelia, I mentioned before, has an episode called Should I Publish My Podcast On Substack? So I'll send you that link so you can include that in the show notes.

    MARY: Yeah, and I listen to Amelia's podcast, too, so I haven't listened to that episode, but I can recommend her podcast, so I'm gonna go listen to that episode too. So thanks for sharing that one.

    AMANDA: Great.

    MARY: Okay. I mean, we could talk about this forever. We can gab and gab and gab, but we got things to do, so thank you so much for your time, Amanda. To close off, though, I always like to ask my guests, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

    AMANDA: Okay. So I listen to a lot of TV recap podcasts, actually.

    MARY: Ooo yeah!

    AMANDA: And when we're recording this, we're just in the middle of February, and, like, a lot of my favourite TV shows are coming back, after long hiatuses. And so I'm currently, I'm watching Severance and YellowJackets and White Lotus is coming back. The Last of Us is coming out, a little bit later in the spring. And so I'm actually really excited to have, like, different TV podcasts, in my feed again, because it's been a bit of a fallow time for us TV lovers over the last year or so. And I really love HBO, always does, like, a companion podcast or often does a companion podcast with the shows where they're actually talking to the creators of the show and kind of giving some behind the scenes. And especially with shows like the Last of Us, like, I just, I love that so much. So I'm listening, I love to watch TV, but even more, I love to listen to TV podcasts.

    [LAUGHTER]

    MARY: I love that because, you know, our world is so serious, and so, like, TV is giving us that window into, like, dreamland, and not have to focus on marketing and tactics, and all that stuff.

    AMANDA: Although, I mean, I don't know about you, but the zombie apocalypse, the mushroom zombie apocalypse… 

    MARY: Oh, gosh, 

    AMANDA: …does feel nigh.

    MARY: It's true. That is true. Although I'm excited for the Last of Us just because this upcoming season, they filmed it on the island here where I live in Vancouver Island in Nanaimo and Vancouver, where I grew up. So I was like, oh, how are they gonna transform this into the mushroom world.

    AMANDA: I can't wait.

    MARY: I can't wait to. Anyway, thank you so much Amanda, for your time and your expertise and your brilliance. And maybe you should come back and we'll do funnel and sandwiches and stuff anytime.

    MARY: Next time.

    AMANDA: Anytime.

    [MUSIC IN]

    MARY: Oh, yeah. How are you feeling now about social media after that discussion? Are you still in the camp of staying or are you planning on leaving cold turkey? It's okay also to just dip your toes back in every now and then, because as Amanda says, it really depends. What are your goals? It's the same for when I'm talking about, you know, launching a podcast or when people are trying to figure out what they're doing with their show. It is that same question, what are your goals? 

    I always ask my clients that. What is the reason for your podcast? What do you want to do with it? Is it that relationship building? Is it the thought leadership in your industry? Is it to grow your network? A podcast can be very specific for each of these things. Before you know what you can do with your show and how to do it, you need clarity on what your podcast is for. 

    So I love that Amanda reiterated this point for the marketing side as well. And Amanda mentioned Amelia's podcast episode about Substack. We highly recommend it. Listen to it. It is linked in the show. Notes for you. I listened to it. It's a quick episode. So she really asked some strong questions that I've asked some of my own clients as well in our strategy sessions. So if you want a quick rundown of what you should start thinking about about this whole Substack, should I be on it? Should I not, give that episode a listen? Like I said, it's a short solo. So if you want to get more specific onto the idea of Substack, and if you want to host your podcast there, Amelia's episode will be a good follow up to this one. 

    And like I was mentioning on the show, that clarity session with Amanda was amazing. It was a one off session where I needed my questions answered instead of, you know, googling it all, trying to figure out, okay, so now that I've googled everything, what will work best for me, it's having that second set of eyes and ears. You know, it's kind of like you're in that fishbowl and you're swimming around in circles all the time, but she's outside of that fishbowl and she really gives you some great clarity. So, highly recommend to if you're looking for some clarity in your marketing, go talk to Amanda. I will leave her website linked in the show notes of course. She'll give you a great roadmap for what will work for you and your show versus, like I said, that generic Google search of ideas that are out there and, uh, of course, what we see on social media too, right? So, slowandsteady.studio, I'll put that link in the show notes. 

    And finally, as Amanda was talking about newsletters and that clear call to action on podcasts, I wanted to bring up mine. How, of course I'm going to end my show with a clear call to action. And since we were talking about newsletters, I would love for you to sign up for mine. You can learn more about podcasting and your voice speaking with spirit. Because your voice is needed now more than ever. I know I've said it before, but, yeah, even more so now because of all the restrictions and silencing that's happening in the world that we've been seeing on social media. So I've said it in the past, but I feel like this moment in time, I mean it more than ever, that we do need your voice now more than ever. 

    So another way to keep in touch with me is through my newsletter, which I don't send out too often. So like she said, I'm not doing like, a buy now type of email marketing. It is a newsletter that I send out most of the time when a new episode is out. So keep in touch with me over there. I'll give you some extra tips as well in the newsletter about podcasting and your voice. So head on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com/newsletter to sign up. 

    And as always, I'd love to hear from you about your thoughts on social media and podcasting, or even your thoughts about Substack. Are you on it? Are you not? Are you contemplating it? I'd love to know. You can leave me a voice note on my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com look for the purple send voicemail button where you can email me or heck yeah, in direct message. Me on social media too. Yes, I'm there. Instagram or LinkedIn. I would love for you to just share your voice, right? Share your thoughts on this whole marketing without social media or I need social media, I'm too addicted to it. It doesn't matter. I would just love to hear your thoughts on this episode. 

    So I'm gonna have a social media post on it. You'll see it. Hopefully the algorithm will let you see it. And when you do, leave a comment there as well. Totally cool. One way or another. 

    On the next episode, we are going to be talking about video, oh yeah, it's that rise of video podcast and how video is so integrated into this podcasting space now. And this whole marketing piece too. People are using video on social media, right? So we are going to talk about pros and cons of integrating video and why you want or not want to add video into your podcasting workflow. So I'll catch you then.

    [MUSIC ENDS] 

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    24 February 2025, 10:00 am
  • 19 minutes 2 seconds
    Your Podcast As Your Own Media Platform - EP 90

    What shifts in podcasting have you noticed in the last few months? In the first episode of 2025, Mary dives right into the changes we’ve seen in podcasting just since last fall. More and more hosts are leaning into partisan politics and using their shows to share their thoughts and concerns with a huge audience. This has further legitimized the industry, similar to when celebrities started to don the mantle of podcast host several years back.

    This mainstream growth has a real impact on your show, even if you aren’t interviewing Canada’s Prime Minister or the Democratic presidential candidate. Mary explores how you, as a podcast creator, can seize this opportunity to transform or elevate your show—ultimately your own media platform—to refresh stagnant formulas and revisit the most essential question: how does your podcast align with your values?

    Whether you’re brand new or years into podcasting, let’s think about:

    • How podcasting becoming more mainstream affects you and your show
    • How you can lean into the shifts to bring a fresh perspective
    • Why you should use your podcast to control the message you want to spread

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: Although it's February, and this is my first episode back from my year end break. Welcome back. It feels like a lifetime ago because so much has changed in this short little bit of time from my last episode that I published in early December. It's amazing what a few months can do for you. And toward the end of last year, too, in episode 87, called Find Podcast Success While Doing Less, that episode is a good one to listen to before this one, because it's kind of a continuation or maybe like a little addendum to that episode. Where are you on your podcasting journey to make your podcast more integrated with what you do and your values, especially in today's world when, yeah, we're still trying to figure out what to do with less time, less money, less capacity, all of that sort of stuff. 

    So if you haven't listened to episode 87 yet, make sure you go find that one and then continue on to this one. Because, yeah, the world has changed. It doesn't matter which part of the world you live in. And I usually don't get very political. This podcast isn't political at all. And I don't slide into that realm. But I feel like with everything that I do, whether that is my personal life, my podcasting life, my business life, everything is all intertwined. So what does that political landscape actually mean for podcasting as a whole? And then more specifically, what does it mean for your show? A few things, actually. So listen in. 

    This is episode number 90 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    >

    Hey, welcome back to the show. Oh, my gosh. This is episode 90. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    And as I usually start my year, I like to go back on, okay, what did I do on my podcast? What do I want to talk about this year? And things like that? And I realized I'm going into my sixth year of this particular podcast. I've done podcasting before with a different show, but this one, this is my sixth year for this. And that also means I'm going into my eighth year in my podcast production company. Who would have thought when I started this adventure? 

    So thank you so much. Whether you are a longtime listener, whether you've known me from the beginning of my podcast production company or even before then, if I'm lucky enough to have a few listeners that are from before that time, or if you're relatively new here, or this is your first episode, you know, it also still feels, very much new to me, because every time I produce an episode, every time I come up with an idea, I take it from that curiosity and learning angle, what can I learn in this moment and how can I share that learning piece with you? So thank you so much for coming on this ride, listening to this specific episode, and we're going to talk a lot about what's shifted in the past few months since I last recorded an episode from December and what is going on right now in February and into the future of podcasting, of course, for your show. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So what is shifting in podcasting? Like I said at the top of the show, I don't usually go political, but podcasts as an industry have gone political. It really has taken that mainstream effect because of the U.S. election back in November and we're starting to see like how that all played out with the podcasting space. So the way I see things is in some ways this is all a good sign for the podcasting industry as a whole. Just like when celebrity podcasts were starting to be a big thing, that started to drive the industry even more. I'm thinking maybe like Dax Shepard has this podcast, Armchair Experts, that started in 2018 and then a few years after that you're starting to see like, podcasting mention in TV shows. 

    And in fact there are shows that are based on this idea of podcasting, like Only Murders in the Building, which I love, love, love. And what are they just finished their fourth season or they're going into their fourth season. Either way it's a hilarious show and there's all these goofs on like how the podcast is actually made and as an audio person I'm like, oh, you can't do that. But whatever, it's a TV show, it doesn't matter, right? And it's fun, but it's good to see it in mainstream. There's also Based On A True Story, which is about podcasting as well, and how do you make money and that celebrity status of a podcast and stuff like that. 

    So it's really good to see that the podcasting industry as a whole, because of these celebrity type podcasts, has made it more accessible for you, an independent podcaster. Like, why do you care that there are celebrity podcasts? Why do you care that there are politics in podcasting now? As an independent and someone who is not on a network show, how does this really impact you? And the whole bottom line is that it legitimizes the platform, meaning if your show is produced well and it stands out in your industry, you become the leader. 

    I mean even before the U.S. election, being Canadian, myself, Justin Trudeau, our Prime Minister in June of 2024, he was on Adam Grant's podcast ReThinking. Love Adam Grant. And I'm not saying to, like, listen to this episode because, oh, my gosh, Justin Trudeau was on and politics and this stuff, but it was just that Adam is also using this podcast as a little bit of behind the scenes of how he even got the Prime Minister onto his show. Like, he's an American going to Ottawa to meet Justin Trudeau. Like, I don't think that would have normally happened in an everyday scenario. But now, 2024, 2025, into the future, podcasting is a legitimate media platform. 

    So taking this into consideration for your podcast, how are you using your podcast as a media platform? Meaning, what is it doing for you? Whether that is having a business behind it or you're marketing your personal brand, or maybe you're just getting awareness for an organization, or a brand, or something that you work with or work for. What is that point of that podcast? Because now you're creating your own media assets. That's what your podcast is. So in order to do that, we need to start thinking about what you want that podcast to do and to make your listeners feel, because that feeling then translates into action. So let's dig into that feelings bit first. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    When you're creating your podcast, what's feeling new? So if you're trying to figure out, okay, do I still want to do interviews, do I want to add solo episodes? What does the format of my show look like and feel like right now, and do I want to change anything? What's feeling stagnant, either for you or maybe for your listeners? And how do you want that refresh to happen? Because, again, you're going to look at this from a media platform lens. How does your podcast play into your overall work? If it's a passion project or, like I said before, part of a business or organization, what are these goals and how does your podcast align with that for this specific year? Because, like I said, everything's changing, everything's new. It's a great time to have that fresh eyes on something. 

    And it's never too late. If you're listening to this episode and it's way past February and not the week that it is published, then that's totally fine. It's never too late to think about your podcasting journey that you've been on so far, even if you haven't launched a show yet. Like, you were still on this podcasting journey, because it all started with that spark of an idea. Where are you on this journey? Have you created hundreds of episodes? Are you only on your 5th episode? Are you on your 100th episode? What has shifted for you since that spark of an idea until today? What's different? 

    [MUSIC IN]

    I mentioned earlier the episode Doing Less For Your Podcast. That's episode number 87 that I did at the latter half of 2024. This is still happening now in 2025, in the beginning stages of the year, I'm seeing people wanting to rest, uh, to shift away from that constant productivity and the daily grind. So listen to that one if you haven't yet. But part of that episode, too. I talk about finances and being Canadian, paying a lot more for things online because they're in U.S. dollars. And our dollar right now is what, 68 cents? 68 cents per U.S. dollar. It's not, not as great as it used to be. So it means that, as Canadians, we are even paying more and more and more for the same product or service from last year. 

    You know, for me, on the business side, that's great because I am getting a lot more Canadians who want to work with me, right? Working with a fellow Canadian, few and far between in the audio world and the podcasting space. So, love to support the Canadians where I can. But what that means is that everything at the start of the year is playing out with a lot of uncertainty. You know, people are trying to figure out, do you want to pay more for this, or should I streamline and not pay for a lot of things here and don't pay for this there? 

    And, you know, podcasting isn't cheap to run your own show, to host a show, at least it does take some money or time. It's not an easy thing to do if you want to put some intention behind it. So with all this uncertainty and all this back and forth, what do we do now in this climate that we're in? I want you to take a step back as well. What can we control to keep the fear of the unknown at bay? 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    Sometimes these tips can feel like very broad and very nebulous. But I think for one, this one is something I didn't want to mention at first because it feels kind of like cliche. But the more I thought about it, I didn't want to edit my own thoughts and kind of stay true to my speak with spirit ethics that I've got. It's gratitude. And you might see it online and be like, oh, yeah, I want to be grateful for this and thankful for that, but it really does help. And from a personal standpoint, I do journal every single night. It's quick bullet form. It's not a bullet journal, per se. I don't know if you've heard that type of journal before, but this is what I do. And I find it works simply for me because they're easy points and it's just to get things out of my head so I'm not constantly thinking about stuff before I go to bed. 

    So I do this every night. Again, whatever works for you. If you are a morning person, maybe you do this in the morning, but for me, five things that were a success could be as simple as tasks, you know, that you checked off. That still counts. Then the next section is three things I'm grateful for and my role in it. What did I do to actually make that happen? So usually I don't do, like, I thank the warm weather today. I thank the sunshine. Well, what did I do to make the warm weather happen? Or what did I do to make the sunshine happen, right? So, not just this nebulous gratitude, but how did this gratitude happen? Because of something that you did. 

    The last section is three actions I took to drive any big dreams or made my day really, really happy. What were those three things? And I've been writing down these points every night since 2019. I would probably say I may have only missed one or two nights because I was sick. Like, if I was traveling, I'd bring my journal with me, my notebook. It's not really like a formal journal. It's just a notebook of blank pages. And then I just put in these notes and headers every day so I can say that the gratitude changes the perspective. 

    And when you are grateful for others and yourself, your brain's chemistry changes, and it can shift your experiences. There's actually a lot of research about how gratitude changes mental health for the better. Even last September, there was research from Harvard Medical School saying how gratitude not only brings happiness, but also lengthens lives. So living longer. Woo! Who wouldn't like that, right? Living longer is amazing. So throw a little gratitude in your space. It's that creation of a habit can be easy as taking down those notes. Like I say that I do every night before bed. But this habit that I really enjoy too, because this way I have time to myself, I get to wind down for a better night's sleep. And I actually do this as the very last thing. Not to get too intimate here, but it is the last thing I do in the bathroom before I literally get into bed. 

    The house is really quiet. I'm usually the only one left awake, and then I do my journaling and I go straight to bed. And actually, you'd be pretty surprised how podcasting actually comes up in my nightly journal. Comes up more often than you might think. Whether that is, you know, something I've been listening to that I learned from a podcasting client that I'm working with. Actually, maybe something that I learned from one of my clients, right? Like, there's just so much that goes into podcasting that you can actually be grateful for. Even though this isn't a podcasting gratitude journal, it's not specific to podcasting, but it does help in your podcasting world. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    And another thing, during all of this uncertainty, a podcast as your media platform is a way for you to control the message, unlike all the bro culture that is there that I've been trying to stay away from. And we are seeing play out in the real world when we as a podcaster speak with spirit. And I mean it in a heartfelt, tactful way. Not like I'm gonna yell, and scream, and speak on what's on my mind. Like, that is a really unkind move, right? Like, we're not being mean spirited here. We are not just saying whatever we want on our mind when we're speaking with spirit, it is in a way that we say it with the intention of love, with an understanding that we are doing our best with the situation that we have and that we have this platform now, this podcasting platform to share that message. 

    So what do you want to say? It's your podcast. It's not social media, which can shut down, or change algorithms, or do all sorts of weird things that you can't control, but this idea that you can still be a leader in, in your industry with your podcast, because you have created your own media platform, your message never goes away until you want it to. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    So I hope you got a little bit of something out of this episode to start your year or to continue that fresh podcasting energy for the year. Keeping this one short, because trying to stay away from all the doom scrolling and all the news. I watch a lot of news, so trying to stay away from that right now. So food for thought, how do you feel in this climate, this political climate that is affecting your podcast, if any, because I'm sure you never even thought about that connection, right? But there is, because now podcasting, it's a legitimate media platform. People are coming to the space to share their message as well. So how are you going to promote other people's voices with intention? 

    We're going to dive deeper into a lot of nuance in this sort of realm this season. So I would love your hot take on what do you want to hear? What do you want to move towards this year? Leave me a voice note. I'd love to hear your voice, VisibleVoicePodcast.com There's a purple button that says send voicemail. Leave me a note there. Or email, as always VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com. 

    And on the next episode, like I said, we're going to continue a bit on this theme here. It's an extension where you're going to talk social media. No, no, it's not what you think. I'm not a big fan of social media either. I don't know if you've noticed or if you're even on. I'm not really on there too often. LinkedIn and Instagram are my places, but they're very restricting of my time. Or I am restricting its time, maybe, is a better phrase.

    So next episode, we're talking about social media because the idea is we're going to be marketing without social media. I'm going to talk to Amanda Laird, who is the Founder of Slow and Steady Studio and a marketing communication strategist. She has more than 20 years of experience in communications, PR, and management, and now helps solo-preneurs, small businesses and non-profit organizations do just enough marketing to reach their goals their way. I love her, just enough, because that's what we're talking about here, too. Doing less, right? 

    So you're going to want to take some notes with this because Amanda knows so much about marketing and I've worked with her in different ways, including her as my client, but also in her helping me with my marketing strategy. So you'll definitely want that notepad, physical or virtual notepad, and take some notes. So we'll talk to you then. 

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    10 February 2025, 10:00 am
  • 25 minutes 23 seconds
    Your Podcasting Questions Answered and a Year End Break - EP 89

    How are your values guiding your voice, schedule, and future plans for your show? The holiday season is upon us, and that makes this the final 2024 episode of The Podcaster’s Guide to the Visible Voice! Throughout the year, Mary fields tons of questions about all things recording, speaking, and producing. So, here’s a round-up of some of the impossible-to-Google questions most podcast creators ask at some point.

    From embracing the volume of your voice to easy-to-implement recording hacks for guest episodes, wrap up your year and feel empowered to launch or continue your show in 2025 with these practical tips from a seasoned podcast strategist and voice coach.

    Get inspired for your upcoming podcast season:

    • How to reframe the “professional” voice in podcasting
    • Consider capacity: taking breaks as a solo creator
    • The future expectations of adding video
    • Easy tips to take your recording process to the next level

    Listen to this year’s guest episodes:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: Over the course of the year, I get plenty of podcasting and audio or voice related questions, as you could guess from the work that I do. And like we've talked about on the podcast before, no question is a dumb question. Podcasting questions come up all the time. Whether they might be a bit more foundational, like, what mic do you buy? How do you record online, how do you get the best sound? Those are more technical questions, but for this episode I wanted to go beyond that, because if you can google it, does it really make for an interesting or exciting podcast episode? Probably not. So I wanted to get under those almost superficial layers. So as we wrap up the year, I'm going to answer three very common questions that I get a lot. And as always, touch upon your podcasting values as we close out this year. 

    This is episode number 89, the last episode for 2024, on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    >

    Hey, thanks for listening to the show, but before we get to the questions, a little Q&A. I wanted to share a voice note with you first, from someone's voice story. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    This is back in episode 85 about your voice health and treating your podcasting instrument with care. I asked you to say and complete the following sentence stems. The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel, dot, dot, dot, fill in the blanks, and then end with the second sentence stem, today, what I love about my voice is, dot, dot, dot, so this is one of the voice notes I got.

    [VOICE NOTE AUDIO]: I'm calling from New York City, New York. The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel very self conscious. Today, what I love about my voice is that I've learned to speak slower. My ideal voice is that of many hosts on NPR public radio, which I listen to all day. And I've often been reprimanded by friends and family for having a very loud voice when I become excitable. And I don't notice that I have such a loud voice. So I'm always really thrilled to listen to voice coaches and experts when it comes to voice. Thank you so much. [VOICE NOTE AUDIO ENDS]

    MARY: Thank you so much for sending the voice note. I love it. I wish more people would send voice notes. Honestly, I talk about them all the time and a lot of people don't have that bravery. And so the voice notes that do come into my inbox, I love them. So thank you so much for sharing. 

    Now, when I heard that voice note, I do have to say I heard the words loud voice, and I too was reminded about how when I was a kid or, you know, even when I was working in radio, when other people use their voices for a living, I was told I was too loud. My coworkers would do that, if you kind of squish your fingers trying to pinch together with your thumb that pinching together to tell me to be quiet, softer, I'm like, no. Because that's when, you know, I am passionate about something. [LAUGHTER] But what I have to say is that it's okay to be loud because it is that passion coming through. It can be. 

    When I get loud that way, I am passionate about something. But that doesn't mean you have to speak that way all the time, right? It's when we can play with our voice to be loud and passionate, but also soft and vulnerable when we need it. So thanks again for your note. Thank you so much for recording it and sending it. I'm glad you have a loud voice when you need it, as I do as well, because loud doesn't always equal bad. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So this leads to my first question for this little Q and A episode. How do I sound more professional? I get this one all the time because, yes, I worked in radio, as you know, and so when people hear my voice, they're like, oh, you've got a great radio voice. And I'm like, yeah, well, been in the business for like 20 years. Like, this isn't the way I started out. This is not how I sounded when I started. So, how do I sound more professional? My short answer is, you don't. Not exactly at least, for podcasting. Like, even in that voice note earlier, she mentioned NPR. For me, it's CBC in Canada or in Europe, it might be the BBC voice. Those are broadcast voices. And even those are slowly changing. 

    But when we podcast, listeners are looking for someone to connect with. So that means also sounding like them, not someone sitting behind a big desk with a microphone. I think the deeper question that someone is actually wanting to ask, when they ask about that professional sounding question, it's that confidence piece with their voice. Like, how do I know when to bring the emotion? Or when should I sound like that journalistic voice? But I think that's the key, though, in podcasting you're not reporting a story or being a journalist. That's a totally different kind of podcast. So unless you are creating a true crime podcast, we really need to reframe this. 

    The professional, quote unquote sound in podcasting is essentially that confidence in your voice. Because in the podcasting industry, most of the popular podcasters don't have a broadcast background. The podcasters, they sound like you, or your friends, or your family. It's when you have confidence to play with your voice, to bring out the anger when you need it, or that sadness when it comes to share your happiness, your excitement, and joy. We're along for that ride with you. 

    So as I said earlier, it's not a one note show. As humans we have many emotions and expressions to play with, and that can also be expressed through your voice. Your listeners are going to get it when you're loud and excited, like I said before, because they'll be there with you. How do you want them to feel? How do you want your listener to feel? Feel that way too. Because we're sharing the feelings. We're not just talking heads. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    The next question is a big question I get all the time. It's usually around taking breaks. Do I take a break from my podcast? Can I take a break on my podcast? The productivity aspect in us, in our society, that accountability part where we hear everyone saying, you need to create content, you need to have a weekly show, podcast once a week, post something once a week, or twice a week at this specific time, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you got to work ahead, so you never take a break. But you know, that doesn't work for everyone, especially if you don't have a team behind you. In all honesty, podcasting is a lot of work. 

    So producing a weekly show on top of if you have your own business, your work, your family life, personal life, taking time to have some fun, there's not a lot of time in one person's life to produce that much content, you know, to have that many episodes. So we have to look back at what our podcast means to us. Why are we building this show? Does your ideal listener expect this productivity from you? Or is this something that you've absorbed from, I don't know, reading something on the Internet that, you know, society is kind of saying to you, this is what you need to do. 

    But I truly believe any creative pursuit. Podcasting, yes, is included as a creative pursuit has their own cycles. So for me to create my best show, I need to include breaks or else burnout is going to set in. So these breaks include the year end break. This is the last episode before 2024 ends. As I told you, I always take a break roughly around the last two weeks of December, and then I come back sometime after Chinese New Year. And Chinese New Year moves, right? It's either in January or February, anywhere between mid-January to early mid-February, because I take that time to go over to Vancouver, see my family, celebrate with everybody. 

    In the summer as well. I take a break usually in July and August because it's the summer here. It's amazing where I live, I want to be outdoors. I'm an outdoorsy person. I want to go out there and really experience the environment that I am in. And so there's not a lot of time for podcasting. I mean, there could be, but honestly, I don't really want to, [LAUGH] right? Podcasting isn't the end all and be all. It is really fun to do though. And I get it too. Like some people might say, you need to keep podcasting or else you'll lose your listeners. But I also understand if your listeners know where you're coming from, they understand your values for your podcast. They will come back. 

    So take a look at those foundations for your podcast again, what was the point of your podcast? Why are you creating the show? And for me, it's not about making money. So my podcast goals are not to monetize and make money, but it is to establish my thought leadership, showcase my work so that down the line I can have clients and make money, right. People hear what I can do and they're like, oh yeah, you know what you're talking about. I'd love to hire you. So it's a long term marketing strategy. This podcast of mine is a marketing platform. But yes, I do love sharing my knowledge and that is fun for me. So that thought leadership aspect of the podcast really works. But that also means I don't have to produce a weekly podcast. That is not important. 

    So what is your plan to take a break as the year is winding down? I challenge you to think about what your production schedule is like and how does that fit into the capacity of your life? What do you need to tell your listeners so that they are kept in the loop and they'll come back, when you're back from your break? 

    [MUSIC IN]

    This next question is a recent one, because it's a recent discovery. It's what's with Spotify for Creators? If you haven't heard what Spotify for Creators is yet, maybe you don't read the industry news like me, or you don't check your email from Spotify. That might not be your main question actually. When I get that question asked, to me, it's really around the idea of videos in podcast. Because Spotify has been making huge investments into podcasting in recent years, buying up podcast shows with big names. But then also buying up podcast businesses to integrate those platforms and those solutions onto the Spotify platform. 

    So their latest is Spotify for Creators, which really is just a rebrand of Spotify for Podcasters, which you might be familiar with. That's where you go to upload your show, your RSS feed, to put onto Spotify for people to listen to. And originally, like most podcasting, it all starts as audio-only. But because the podcasting landscape is now blurring with video, this rebrand is to incorporate video content creators too. So it's not niching down to podcasts only and making sure that they're getting more than just podcasters, meaning they want to include video podcasts. 

    Last year, October, actually in 2023, I had the episode Organic Discovery For Podcasts. That was episode number 67. This one was about when YouTube made a huge shift in their podcasting landscape to announce that they were shutting down Google Podcasts and integrating podcasting into YouTube. So a whole year later, now we see Spotify going head to head with YouTube to try and compete in this space with Spotify for Creators. So really, the question that I also get is, do I have to do video now, too? You hear it in their voice. They're like, oh, not one more thing, [LAUGHS] right? Like I said, podcasting is a lot of work. Now we have to do video, too. Short answer, no, you don't. 

    So here's where that line gets blurred again. When listeners or viewers on the video side, see, there's already a distinction in the wording, at least viewers versus listeners, they understand that a podcast is a show where essentially there's a microphone and people talk to each other. So when you think of podcasting, you might think of the really big shows that have video. But you also have to remember that these big shows, they were also paid big bucks to be on Spotify. And some of them to, then when they got on Spotify, to include video in their strategy to compete all with YouTube. That was Spotify's whole grand plan. 

    So now people think that a successful podcast must have video because those big names have video. But again, you also have to remember, those quote, unquote, successful podcasts, they have a big team behind them, they understand video and how to integrate that video audience, the viewers, into the goals of their podcast. So you might want to ask yourself, do you have the resources to make a highly produced show? So, I mean, highly produced, because it's not just a basic video call like over Zoom, and then you put it out on the Internet, if you have those resources, then good on you. Go and make that podcast on video happen. You will use Spotify and YouTube to their fullest advantage. 

    But for most podcasts, consumption is still mostly done on a podcast listening or audio only app. And as I hinted earlier, audio only is a very different medium and listener type than a video watcher. You need to be mindful to cater to either one of those. So, if you're doing both, not just to cater to the video side or not just to cater to the audio side, because then the video side loses out or the audio side loses out, right? No one is a winner. So the other platform will always suffer. If you're only catering to one and thinking like, oh, we'll just do the video, because YouTube has so much algorithm that we'll just strip the audio from the YouTube and then we'll just post it for audio only, that's great but, your audio will suffer because you're not focusing on that. And the audio only listeners will probably not listen to the show as much as watching it on YouTube. 

    But for a lot of podcast listeners, they're like, I don't want to watch a podcast, I won't be able to take it with me. I haven't paid for a YouTube subscription, so why do I want to listen to a podcast there? There's a totally different medium, right? The listeners is doing something different than a video viewer. But what I'm also not saying is not to use video. There's a double negative there. Yeah, I'm saying not only to use video, right? Like, I think there is a place for video on the promotional side of an audio only podcast. You can create clips of the conversation or create audiograms, which is what I do. It can be still very effective in reminding your audience to listen to the show or give that discoverability piece on social media. But just because you don't create a video for your podcast doesn't mean you can't be on YouTube, right? Remember I was saying YouTube has now integrated podcasts so you can have a static image of your podcast and still post it onto YouTube and still get some views from there. 

    The other strategy could be making your audiograms a portrait vertical layout and posting it as a YouTube short to still get discoverability from YouTube. So, there's many ways to go about this video strategy and it doesn't mean you have to also create a video podcast now. So don't disregard video. But also don't think that you need to have video for your podcast either. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    The last question I have is, what's your recording process like for recording your guests for your episodes? This was something that was actually highlighted to me a few times now when I have a guest on a show or when I'm interviewing someone for, like, my networking groups and overall, just doing what I normally do on a podcast with a guest, and they're always like, wow, this is such a great idea. I'm stealing it. And now I'm like, wait a minute, have I not talked about it on my podcast yet? So, I'm going to share this little tidbit with you if you don't know yet. 

    Okay, so when you have a guest on your show and it doesn't matter, could be in person, could be online. When you are doing an interview, hit record as early as you can. And, of course, let them know that you've hit record so that they know that everything is recording. But this does two things. One, it gives your guests time to relax and get comfy before the conversation ever starts. Because most of the time, when you're like, okay, we're going to get ready to record now. I'm going to hit record. You hit record. And then they get all like that deer in the headlights, [GASP] like, oh, my god, we're recording now. Okay, I'm going to talk about myself, right, okay, here we go. [STRAINED VOICE AND SIGH] But, if you record a lot sooner, you can just get right into the conversation, and they're like, oh, right, we're just continuing what we had just chatted about. So this is fine. I find that really, really helps. 

    Two, this also gives you a chance to ask them to pronounce their full name, to just basically say their name of how they would like to be presented. So, whether or not you know how to pronounce their name, there's always different ways to pronounce names or regional pronunciations that you might not be aware of. So my main reason for making sure you record them saying it themselves is so that if you have trouble enunciating and pronouncing the name, you can practice along while listening to the playback. 

    So you can just have them say their name, it's recorded, and then when you play it back after the fact, when you're recording your intro, or if you need to re-record their name or something like that, you can hit play, listen to them say it, practice it yourself, hit, stop, rewind, hit play, listen to it again, and just make sure that you pronounce their name the way they would like it to be pronounced. This way your lips and your tongue gets comfortable with it. And you can say it because at this point, you know it, you're not just going to struggle with how to pronounce the person's name. So, I hope this little quick, amazing tip is helpful for you in the recording process for your guests. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So really, that's it as we wrap up the year. What are your podcast plans for 2025? What are you looking to improve with your show, whether you have launched one or not? Remember, this is all part of the values of your podcast. Think about your own needs and what you want out of your podcast. Let me know your plans, of course, by leaving a voice note. That would be awesome. You can do that on my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com and look for the purple Send Voicemail button. Essentially, if you ask me a question, I'll answer it for you too. So, like, you get a quick answer for a little podcasting question you might have. 

    And then normally, of course, at this time of the year, I always talk about values and celebrating. And if you're like me, I don't celebrate enough. That is still a practice that I am working on. Much better this year than last, but still working on it. So in terms of my own podcast, celebrating that, which sometimes could fall to the bottom of the list because I'm so focused on all the client work. So, I wanted to thank all my guests from this past year. I'm really grateful that they made time to share space with me and allowing me to be a part of their podcasting journey and sharing those views and messages and experiences with you. 

    So I'd like to thank Brigitte Bojkowszky, Shannon Kirk, Erin Moon, Joel McKinnon, Beth Cougler Blom, Craig Constantine, Nic Redman, and most recently Kellina Powell. If you haven't listened to their episodes yet, please, please do. We covered a lot this year, from accessibility to voice and writing techniques, the humanity of podcasting and AI, and of course, asked about their individual lessons from their own podcasting journey. So I hope you learn a lot from them as I have. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    Oh, and since we're on the point of celebrating in gratitude, I realize I've never done this on the audio side of the show, but they are always in the show notes. So if you don't always read down to the bottom of the show notes, my team that makes this podcast happen, I started this as a one woman show and eventually over the years, I added a person, added another person. And so, like I was talking about, podcasting is not easy work. I do have a team behind me.

    So, Shannon Kirk, thank you for all the writing that you do for the show notes. Kristalee Forre, who is behind the scenes with all the post-production, so that's creating the graphics and accurately cleaning up all the transcripts, that's always a tough job, but she loves the details. And Emily Johnston, who designed the podcast logo and the templates for all the graphics that Kristalee gets to make that's associated with the show. So thank you to you. You've made the podcast possible.

    And also thank you to you, you, the listener, thank you for listening to the show. Because if really I only got, what, two listeners, then it's not worth it. I'm thinking that's me, and maybe me again on a different podcast. [LAUGHTER] You know, like, I'm not looking for hundreds of listeners, but just that idea of what I teach for others, too, is that if you think about each podcast episode as being in front of the room with someone. You know, I've been on networking groups where they're like, oh, yeah, ooh, we've only got eight people today. I'm like, you know what? My podcast episodes reach more than eight people. And so you get to spread your message, you get to share your voice, and you get to speak with spirit, and people are here listening like you. 

    So thank you so much for being a podcast listener. And as I always say at the end of the show, if you love the show, if you got something from it, even if you don't love, love the show, but you're listening to this one episode and you got something from it, I'd appreciate it if you shared it with someone. And sharing could mean finding one of my social media posts and reposting it, or sending the link to a friend, or even from your phone, hit the share button and send it to a friend and say, hey, you might be interested in this. I really, really, really, really would appreciate that. So thank you. 

    So here's to your podcasting journey. May the rest of the year be restful. Yes, for your show and your voice and to have a safe, but also adventurous 2025. I'll be back after Chinese New Year because I'll be celebrating with my family at the end of January this year. And so I'll be back around February 10th, early to mid February this year for Chinese New Year we're welcoming the Year of the Snake. It will be a year of wisdom, transformation, and power to your voice, so looking forward to 2025. All right, thank you again and we'll talk to you soon. 

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    9 December 2024, 9:00 am
  • 32 minutes 17 seconds
    Accessibility in Podcasting for Hard-of-Hearing Listeners with Kellina Powell - EP 88

    How can you make your podcast more accessible to people who are deaf and hard of hearing? It goes without saying that we don’t know what we don’t know. When it comes to how people with auditory differences—such as those who are deaf and hard of hearing—interact with our podcasts, the only way to learn how to do better and make those episodes more accessible is to ask. And that’s exactly what this episode does.

    Kellina Powell is an author and speaker who helps deaf and hard-of-hearing women express themselves with confidence in a hearing world. Tuck in your earbuds and get ready to listen and learn as Mary and Kellina discuss the nuances of engaging with podcasts as a hard-of-hearing listener. How big a role does video play? Is all the effort we put into creating transcripts paying off? Kellina weighs in with helpful transparency from first-hand experience about the accessibility questions you’ve always wanted to ask.

    Learn from Kellina’s unique perspective of the audible world:

    • How your microphone affects sounds picked up during recording
    • The difference in how hearing and hard-of-hearing people filter ambient noise
    • How we can make our transcripts more accessible to those who need them
    • How to respectfully ask questions about accessibility

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Engage with Kellina:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    >

    MARY: You don't know what you don't know. And that goes for all sorts of things, not just any podcasting. But in the world of accessibility that is especially true. We can't create an environment to support accessibility features until we understand how someone actually interacts with it. Not what all the gurus and experts are telling us, but actual people. All the good and the bad things, what works, what doesn't. This usability aspect is really important to know. 

    But in podcasting, an audio medium, how accessible are they to people who are hard of hearing? How do you create podcasts that can be more accessible in an audio-focused world? For some insight, I reached out to Kellina Powell, the Deaf Queen Boss. Kellina empowers deaf and hard of hearing women to express themselves fully and be heard in the hearing world with confidence. We recorded this conversation at the height of 2024, in the summer heat. So it was really hot out where she lives in the Toronto area. And I took this opportunity to let her A, feel at ease with the tech that she wanted to use for our recording. So in this case an iPad, so she could have captions automatically since we were not using video for the recording. And then B, I also realized for you as the listener, since she's outside, you can actually hear how things are recorded and heard from her point of view. 

    So you'll hear it all and I want you to hear all of it. Not all podcasts are recorded in quiet rooms. So I wanted to use this episode as a great example of what it can be like when audio is used in a natural outdoors environment versus a closed environment. You'll hear the difference, because she'll be outside and I'll be in my quiet space. So what I've done differently with this episode is the editing. I slowly faded out her side of the recording when I'm speaking, so you can hear the difference. But there were also some spots that I left in while I was speaking. So you can hear her background too, because different mics record differently and the environment you're in plays a significant role in the outcome of your audio. 

    So there were spots where I was talking and her background was full of great noise. As in you could hear the wind, birds chirping, traffic in the background, and there was even a siren happening at one point. It all gets amplified when a microphone comes into play. A lot of people, for those who do have full hearing capabilities, they block out all of that stuff. Your brain knows that's background, and in that natural environment, your brain just filters it out. But with the microphone, it's recording all of that and playing it back into your headphones or your speakers. And I feel like that's how someone who is hearing impaired and uses a hearing device might actually hear the world. 

    So keep that in mind when you record your podcast or have a guest on, because even someone like Craig Constantine, who was my guest from episode 84, he talked about being hard of hearing, an invisible disability that I didn't even know about, until he mentioned it on the show. So you never know who is hearing or wants to hear your show, but has a really challenging time. So I want you to listen in not only for what Kellina is saying in this episode, which is so really important to elevate accessibility in podcasts, but also for the sound itself of the episode and what role sound plays into your own podcast recordings. 

    This is episode 88 with Kellina Powell on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

    > 

    MARY: Kellina, thank you so much for joining me on the show. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    I'm really excited to talk to you about your experience as a listener, as a guest, all the stuff for podcasting.

    KELLINA : Woohoo! I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

    MARY: Okay, let's talk first about your listening experience. As a listener of podcasts, Take me through some of your struggles that happens when you're listening to podcasts.

    KELLINA: So I guess I would start with is when, during COVID So during COVID it was not acceptable for people who had deaf or hard of hearing. And I think it was just because technology was very new to everybody. Not everybody knew how to be accessible at the time. And for me, when I started listening to a podcast through my cell phone, even though I had a hearing aid Bluetooth in my ears, it was really great and everything. But until I realized that it's very hard to find, like, a subtitle that can go along with or even just a description of the podcast alone and what's happening. It was very hard in the beginning because I couldn't follow through until I actually started listening to podcasts on YouTube. So that actually helped me to listen to podcasts.

    MARY: I didn't even think about that aspect of it because YouTube does have that captioning.

    KELLINA: Yes.

    MARY: Do you ever use Apple podcasts?

    KELLINA: I did a couple of times, but not often.

    MARY: Okay. Because since March of this year, in 2024, they've included transcripts that you can follow along with. So I was just also wondering, from a listener perspective, do transcripts actually help at all?

    KELLINA: Sometimes it does. And sometimes it doesn't, unfortunately. Sometimes it cuts off. So know when you're speaking or even when someone's speaking fast, sometimes it doesn't pick up everything that someone's talking, unfortunately. Or sometimes it's not active all the time, like consistent, right? Sometimes your iPhone may act up or, you know, maybe you need to upgrade a new software, because I know a lot of people have been complaining about they always have to be consistent with new iPhone software, which is annoying for some people, right? Like for me, I didn't know that there was a closed caption that was coming up in March until I tried in April and I couldn't find it on my phone. And it was so hard because I had to upgrade my phone. I'm like, are you kidding? So sometimes it gets annoying.

    MARY: Yeah, it's like the tech is helpful, but not always.

    KELLINA: Exactly.

    MARY: Yeah, and then there's also, I think as an industry as a whole, when we talk about transcripts, there is that difference between like a caption or subtitles, which is normally like a YouTube visual aspect, and then transcript, where it can be a separate document. And sometimes for myself, if I'm looking for a transcript just to like, figure out like the exact words somebody said or to do some research, or something like that. Transcripts are hard to find in terms of, is it on the website? Do I have to go into an app to find it? So that type of a transcript, when you're actually getting a document to read through, is something like that helpful at all?

    KELLINA: It gets annoying, right? There's some people that don't even bother looking. For me personally, I don't have the energy to do that. People always ask me like, do you ever look for them? And I said no, if I can't find where it's coming from and I have to do the extra work, unfortunately they're going to lose me as a listener, because you didn't have an easy way of getting access to subtitle or description.

    MARY: Yeah, it's that layer of friction, right?

    KELLINA: Mhm.

    MARY: So you gravitate towards YouTube because that currently it works for you?

    KELLINA: Exactly. 100%, yeah.

    MARY: Huh. What else works for you though?

    KELLINA: What else helped me, especially listening to a podcast, is the microphone. A lot of people don't realize this. A lot of times, when they're talking on the microphone. I can tell the difference when someone talking through the headset versus the microphone, the professional microphone. Some people did not realize that. 

    And I remember, I think it was a lady I did a podcast for and she was talking through her headset right before the bluetooth AirPod came out, the long wired one. So those long wired ones are not good. And I could tell, remember, I'm like, oh, are you using the long wired headset? And she's like, how do you know? I said, oh, because there's down with the microphone on it. So a lot of time people need to be mindful when they're using the microphone.

    MARY: Yeah. Because it does record and pick up, like all the nuance and the different frequencies. And is that one of the issues where you're missing a frequency that you can't hear?

    KELLINA: Yes, 100%.

    MARY: So then I also wonder, what about like, then on Zoom? Because a lot of interviews are done over Zoom, and I'm sure, like now in our digital post-pandemic world and stuff, like, zoom is a huge thing, but they have the noise cancellation algorithm, and so it actually cuts a lot of the higher end frequencies too. Like as an audio editor, that's what I see. So, how much of a struggle is it to listen to a podcast that you can probably tell has been recorded on Zoom?

    KELLINA: It's okay on Zoom. As long does the closed caption on it, I'm okay with it, but again, it really depends on someone's background noise or if they have a lot of like something that rubbing against the microphone, right? Because sometimes people. I remember one time I had to pause the sky and I said, hey, like, there's a lot of noise on your microphone. I don't know what's going on, but it's irritating my ears, because a lot of people don't know this. My hearing aid is bluetooth, so I actually hear it straight through my hearing aid instead of the speaker, so. Which is kind of cool. So, I could tell like so many different ways, especially through Zoom, it's kind of tricky because sometimes Zoom clash a little bit, especially with the microphone, and sometimes it's not always clear.

    MARY: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize how much a microphone can actually pick up sound. This is something that I learned when I worked in radio, right? Like, somebody would be like, jangling their keys in their pocket while they're talking and the microphone just picks that all up. So it amplifies that sound. 

    KELLINA: Yes. [LAUGHTER]

    MARY: Or like click, clicking a pen. That happens a lot too. And then you're like, all you can hear is the pen clicking and not the person talking.

    KELLINA: Yeah. Especially the pen that is clicking. And you know when people need something to play with on their hand. Oh, my god. Yes. It happened A couple of times. Even when I'm listening to a podcast, I hear a lot.

    MARY: Yeah, because like you said, it's like, right in your ear with the. With the bluetooth hearing aid.

    KELLINA: Yeah, exactly.

    MARY: I can only imagine it's like that pen is clicking right next to your head.

    KELLINA: Yes, it is. Yes, it's annoying. But I mean, hey, like, they always say they're superpowers, so.

    MARY: Oh, totally. Hearing is your superpower now. Let's get into, like, more of this side of being a guest on a show. You know, we can make as much of an educated guest, you know, me as a host, to try and be more accessible. But I'm sure it really varies person to person. But on an overall level, what do you want podcast hosts to think about when we are hosting our podcasts? From your perspective, when you are a guest on our show.

    KELLINA: I would say definitely prepare a script for people, right? You don't want to put people on the spot, especially someone who is deaf and hard of hearing. You don't want them to not follow the dialogue. How do you want the podcast to go? That's one. And number two, be prepared, right? What I mean by be prepared is just, you know, ask someone come on the call five or ten minutes before the actual podcast time to test out technology. Because technology has its own days, honestly. It really does. You just never know. 

    And so I always tell people, you know, prepare, right? It's very important so that way we can understand you just in case if there's some changes that needs to be addressed. Just making sure the closed caption is there. Just really prepare. Because I know like, a lot of time when I go on podcast, they don't prepare. And then until the time comes, and then we go through a little, you know, conflict. But that's number two. Number three, definitely, definitely, you know, let people know about your sound quality. A lot of time, podcasters don't think about it. Like you said, they just go on, the guests just go on there and just talk. But sometimes they don't understand and realize that sound quality is super important, especially if you need someone to hear you very well. 

    And lastly, I would say your speech. Be mindful how you're speaking to someone, because I noticed that sometimes when I go on podcasts, it's okay to be nervous, but some people need to talk a little bit slower. Some people need to talk more softer when they're interacting with someone who is hard of hearing, especially being a podcast, knowing that it's not face to face because we are lip readers and some of you may not know this, a lot of deaf and hard of hearing individuals rely on lip reading. So if you want to make sure that your guest can see your lips during the call, right? Don't be in the dark. Don't have anything covering your mouth. It's very important that you have the space bright and very clear. So that way we can read your lips during the conversation.

    MARY: Oh, that's such a good point too. Or like with me, I have this big microphone, so making sure like the microphone isn't blocking that angle so that you could see, if you needed it. Yeah, that's, that's some great points especially too, like my show, there is no video portion and we met first on Zoom. So like, as the listener can paint a picture of what was happening with me and you and the beforehand before we recorded, again yeah, I wasn't sure if you needed that video portion or not and I asked you ahead of time and then we moved on to clean feed. 

    So now that we're partway through this conversation and we're on cleanfeed.net recording this, there is no video portion. You said you have the captioning going on. How is this experience for you so far being a guest on my show, at least?

    KELLINA: [LAUGHS] It's pretty wild because your microphone very clear. For me is to follow through and your tone is very well. I'm not like struggling to hear because you're talking too fast or you have background noises or anything like that. So far it's okay, but I do love having the caption. Sometimes on my iPad it does have automatic caption, so sometimes I don't have to ask for a caption. So first of all, it's okay.

    MARY: Okay. Is your captioning working with this? Just curious.

    KELLINA: Yes, it is.

    MARY: Okay, awesome. Okay good to know for like future for myself [LAUGHS] or for anyone who is going to use this similar setup.

    KELLINA: Yeah.

    MARY: Okay. If you hosted your own show though, what would you incorporate that you find would be helpful, but many shows aren't doing.

    KELLINA: That's a really good question. I have been seeing a lot of improvements with a lot of podcaster hosts. I would say if I were to have my own show, it would have been a lot more like YouTube short, just talking, discussion. And obviously it's going to have closed caption and I'm not going to have a big microphone in front of my lips. I will have that small microphone attached to my clothes so that people can be able to see. Very bright, so that people can see my lip reading. That's how I would do something different.

    MARY: Because I come from radio and now this audio only podcast. The video stuff is also very new to the podcasting industry as a whole. Not new as in, it's brand new. It's been tried before, but now the, the features of it is really picking up and people are having their podcast on YouTube. So, then I was also curious, do you prefer a podcast that have that lip reading, visual person aspect, or do you ever listen to a podcast on YouTube that's just a static image?

    KELLINA: I personally wish they that, I prefer video.

    MARY: Yeah.

    KELLINA: And I guess it's because it's a lot easier and I don't have to rely on closed captions so heavily. And I know sometimes, you know, people pick up things different than others. For me, I pick up a lot faster when I'm reading your lips and when there's very clear background noises and even just a clear, brightness on the show. But I can't do audio just because I don't have to keep like rewinding it again to make sure I understand what's being said. 

    So a lot of time, like myself, I noticed that if I just listen to audio only, I keep rewinding it so many times because I'm missing so many words. I'm like, oh my God, what did she say again? And I'm trying to process what the person said as well, right? Especially when you're reading closed caption. You're multitasking. You're also listening at the same time. So that's why I prefer video.

    MARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking too about like, like I was saying before, transcripts are almost the quick and easy checklist of like oh, I've done my accessibility feature, I have a transcript for my podcast. But if we have that layer of friction and it, you know, makes you do the work to either find the transcript, listen to it on the website instead of your preferred platform, then what can we do with that transcript to make it more accessible, if any, as a podcast host?

    KELLINA: Oh, yeah, for sure, 100%. I just feel like using a transcript is a lot easier than anything else. And always hover at the bottom even if you cannot make a very long one. Just write a summary of what the podcast is about. At least do that for us so that way we understand. Okay, what's the comment conversation you want to be like, what's it about? To give us an idea and give us a heads up.

    MARY: Oh yeah, like, so what you're talking about Is like the description for that episode on your app or YouTube or what have you, right?

    KELLINA: Yeah, that's right.

    MARY: Yeah. So yeah, we call that your, the episode description or your show notes. And yes, I, I find too like some people don't actually put a description in and I'm like, well, but what am I listening to? What, what are we getting ourselves into here? 

    KELLINA: Exactly, it's like what's going on, you guys? Like you guys. Especially for those who've been doing podcasts for over two plus years and some of them still don't. And I question them all the time. And I'm like, has anybody ever spoken to you how important it is to have it? But yeah, I'd be surprised a lot of time too.

    MARY: What then also makes an effective transcript because you can just have the words of, you know, people talking. But what about like, all the other sound aspects?

    KELLINA: Like other sounds in terms of like, background noise or like microphone wise.

    MARY: So one of the things that I do with my transcript again is like, I don't know, is this actually useful, is when say for example in this conversation we have a spot, where you know, we're laughing a little bit or there's a bit of sarcasm and then just having in square brackets laughter or sound effect, whatever the sound effect is. You know, if I was talking about pen clicking and I was actually clicking a pen, would it be helpful to actually write in sound effect? Pen clicking?

    KELLINA: It would be helpful but it also depends how you are going around about it. It depends really, but it could be helpful.

    MARY: Okay, so then outside of podcasting specific apps you were talking about like closed captioning with your iPad, there's accessibility features on devices. My Android phone, I have Live Transcribe that I can use while listening to a podcast. But how accurate or usable are features like this? Or would you just prefer it to be like those YouTube subtitles?

    KELLINA: I would say YouTube. I don't know why, I'm sorry everybody, but YouTube is my thing. Okay… 

    MARY: Yeah, totally. 

    [LAUGHTER]

    KELLINA: …I don't know you guys. Like, I guess because YouTube was already there and they were already showing so much more and I feel like the energy was there. You can see the people energy versus just listening. You can't. Yes. You can tell about the energy through the voice. But I don't know. I prefer YouTube 100%

    MARY: Yeah, I feel like that visual aspect does help support the hearing part in your life.

    KELLINA: Oh yeah 100%.

    MARY:  So that's more of a preference. And everyone has their own preference. So you know…

    KELLINA: Exactly

    MARY: …like there's some people who are like, I don't do video at all. I can't stand video. I want to just like…

    KELLINA: [LAUGHS] I get it.

    MARY:  …take my headphones with me and go somewhere. So it's totally a preference.

    KELLINA: Exactly, I totally get it. And I told everybody, uh, like, your style is going to be super different. If you are not someone who don't like video, you don't have time for editing, that's okay. You can just upload it and just make sure that the closed caption is there for YouTube and that's it. You don't have to do much, especially if you are someone who prefer video.

    MARY: Okay, what about a podcasting industry or the individual podcast hosts? What can we do to improve the accessibility from its current state?

    KELLINA: I mean, like I said before, just really making sure that everybody feels welcome. Making sure that you are asking the right question. There's no such thing as a dumb question. I get that a lot. Kellina, I'm gonna ask you a dumb question. I don't know if there's no such thing as a dumb question. Because you don't know, right? You will never know unless you ask. So always ask the correct question that you are concerned, worried about, and don't be afraid to ask. And I would say that's the most important thing is always ask. Especially if you don't know. You don't want to just go through the podcast and you never ask them, and then your podcast results don't come out great.

    MARY: I also, though, feel like I don't want to offend. So, like, I don't. Maybe I just don't know what the right question to ask is. So how do you go about that?

    KELLINA: So usually I always tell people before you ask a question, my favourite line is, hey, I may ask you something, but it might be offensive or it might be stupid. But is it okay I can ask you something? And then ask your question.

    MARY: Mhm. Yeah. Because I feel like people, you know, they have a good heart. You know, they want to be informed, they want to learn and, but then they also, like, don't want to feel like they're making you do all the work, I suppose. Or offending you.

    KELLINA: Exactly. And I feel like some people need to understand that when you do so much work, you're giving yourself so much work, so much headache, where you should have just asked right.

    MARY: Mmm, mhm. So, yeah, going back to that point of I don't know what I don't know. So is there something from this conversation that we haven't touched on that you feel like you want to speak up on now?

    KELLINA: I just want people to understand that it's okay to ask dumb questions, everyone, it's okay. [LAUGHTER] It's okay. At the end of the day, you have to remember it's your show, right? But you also want to make sure it's comfortable for everybody else. That's pretty much it.

    MARY: Awesome. So then to round out the conversation, I ask everybody, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

    KELLINA: I just love impacting other people that I don't even know. And that's why I love continuing going on podcasts, you know, and because it's so fascinating to really see how people are curious to know what are the individuals like as a deaf person, right? 90% of the time, every time I talk to a host, they never had a deaf person, so they're very excited to ask me questions. And so I just love the lightness of seeing the whole space to understand what it is like. So, yeah, I love it.

    MARY: Yeah, I love it too, because then I can, like, research and meet people and have an excuse to meet people, right? Instead of just randomly finding someone saying, oh, you're kind of cool. Can we meet up and have a coffee date or something? [LAUGHTER] This like, hey, I have a podcast. Let's have a chat. [LAUGHS]

    KELLINA: Exactly 100%. It's very cool how you can meet so many people, especially people you did not think you could meet. So it's definitely a cool way to connect with people.

    MARY: Kellina, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and opinion with me.

    KELLINA: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Thank you.

    [MUSIC IN]

    MARY: I had such a great conversation with Kellina. I loved it. It was so fun. And going back through it, it really got me thinking more about transcripts. As Kellina said early on in the episode, it's a layer of friction for her to use the transcript if it's only housed on your website, and then people have to go searching for it. What seems to work better is if the transcript is already there within the podcast listening app. 

    But I know not everybody uses the same podcast listening app. Yes, there are some popular ones. So, I'm testing this out to put the transcript in the show notes. So ever since this episode was recorded in the summer, any of my episodes since the fall of 2024, I've included the transcript in the body of the show notes, so you'll have it in your podcast listening app. I was doing some tests because people also wonder if a large chunk of text like a transcript, would get cut off. But most apps so far have been displaying it, like Spotify. 

    An accurate transcript is actually a lot of work, and I might talk about this more in a future episode. But for now, I like having my transcripts at the bottom of the show notes, so at least it's guaranteed to be on whichever app the person is listening on. So for the most part, I do like this approach. There are some drawbacks. Like I said, some apps do not display all the words because like, Apple Podcasts, they have a character maximum limit on the text. But Apple Podcasts also is trying to improve accessibility and they have a specific field for transcripts, at least on the app itself. Not on the web version of Apple Podcasts, but the web version, much like the app, has a link to the website episode page, which I do utilize, so they can click on that. But again, it's a lot of work to get to a transcript. 

    So like I said, for now, it's great that the podcasting industry as a whole is trying more accessible features like what Apple Podcasts is doing with their transcripts and the app. But again, if podcasting listening apps are not really accessible, is it also worth the effort of creating an accurate transcript? Creating the transcript is one thing, but does displaying them is another beast altogether and how they're used. 

    So for research purposes and looking for quotes, yes, the transcript on your website might be better formatted and easier to read, but the accessible part, I believe that needs to live as plain text on your show notes, your episode description field. So that way, no matter what formatting the podcast app uses, whether they have a transcript field or not, there is still a spot to display it. That's my stance, at least for this moment in time as technology exists. But like I said, I think I'll get into more detail about this in a future episode next season. 

    This episode is also a great reminder for podcasters too. So in general, that reminder to use headphones and to be able to monitor, to listen in, to what is being recorded on your microphone. Yes, having headphones on means you don't have to use the echo cancellation or noise reduction algorithms on some of your online recording platforms, but also to actually get a sense of what is being recorded. If you are monitoring or listening in to what your microphone is picking up. 

    Sometimes there are settings where you don't hear what's being recorded, and that's going to be hard to get around, but if you have that option, definitely use it. This way you do hear everything that the microphone is being recorded. So even in your quiet room, if you're by a window, you can still hear the car driving by, a train in the background, that pen clicking that. I was mentioning earlier, it's all going right into your ears because you're wearing your headphones and your microphone is picking it up. And of course you can monitor it. You can hear it. So I think we can use this very simple scenario, too, to get a very small glimpse and experience of what it could mean for someone who's hard of hearing, who uses a hearing aid, either listening to your show or being a guest on your show. And I never thought of some of these aspects, and I'm so grateful for Kellina who brought up these aspects to my attention. And we can now sort of use this podcasting experience as an easy way to sort of put yourself in someone else's shoes. 

    So thank you so much, Kellina, for coming on the show to share your experiences and doing the work for us, who live so much more easily in this hearing world. I so appreciate the conversation. 

    On the next episode. It is the final episode of the season before we hunker down into the end of the year and I have my year end break. So far throughout the year, I've been compiling questions, so I'm going to be doing a Q&A. If you have any questions that you want me to answer about podcasting, I'm all ears. I want you to send me your questions, either leaving a voice note on my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com or drop me an email. Write me your questions at VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com. 

    And like Kellina said towards the end of the EP episode, no question is a stupid question. You just need to ask. So bring it on. I'd love to start your 2025 strong. Whether you plan on launching your first or next show, going into another season of your podcast, or even picking up your podcast after a hiatus, I've got answers to your podcasting thoughts. So ask away and your question could appear on the next episode. So until then, speak with spirit. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    >

    25 November 2024, 10:00 am
  • 23 minutes 50 seconds
    Find Podcast Success While Doing Less - EP 87

    What could doing less look like for your podcast? Life is chaos these days. The hours often seem to fill up instantly with all the things on your plate, so don’t feel bad if publishing podcast episodes start to slide to the bottom of your to-do list. Stumbling on the podcasting flow is totally normal—and totally fixable. The good news is that you can cut back on your workload and still release an impactful, exciting show.

    Curbing the number of hours you spend prepping, recording, editing, publishing, and promoting doesn’t have to result in lower-quality episodes. By circling back to your original goals and finding ways to trim, rearrange, and even cut tasks that don’t serve you, a process emerges that keeps you excited to create but not bogged down for hours and hours you just don’t have.

    Yes, you have the potential to balance more rest and a meaningful show:

    • How to check in on your definition of success
    • Why you’re getting better with every show, even if you didn’t notice
    • How to go out with heart if you decide to take a break

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: What's possible if you can do less on your podcast, but still achieve your goals. This very specific moment in time. We're looking at the very end of 2024. We're in early November. As I record this, I feel like the collective Western world is at a standstill, kind of waiting in the wings, in limbo to see what's going to drop next. Whether that is interest rates for housing, local or federal elections, cost of living, like grocery prices rising. And you know, there's still like the day to day stuff like managing your work and your podcast is part of that. 

    So there's a lot happening in your world, and podcasting might not be at the top of your list of to do’s. I know. And you know what? I'm here to say that it's okay if that's what you're thinking. Like, I got other things to do than to work on my podcast right now. And yeah, it's okay. And this is coming from someone who makes a living editing, managing and strategizing other people's podcasts. Podcasts is mainly what I do. So that's a scary thought for me that if I'm telling people to podcast less, is that going to be less for me as well? How do I survive that? 

    But once you take a step back, less is more. As they say, doing less at this time in history can reap many benefits in the future. During your podcasting journey, just like any other parts of your life, it's always good to take a step back. Ask yourself, is there anything I can optimize or do less of, while still enjoying making my show? So let's get into how you can reassess your podcast, so you can still have fun creating a show that you love and have the work of making a podcast that meets your capacity. 

    This is episode 87 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

    > 

    In our fast paced, moving, technological world, many things are grabbing our attention. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    And as creators of content, how do you want to create content for this world? I would like to think that we're not creating content just for the sake of creating content, adding noise to what is already out there. But you know what? If you want to create content for the sake of creating content, that's your goal? All the power to you. But if you're here to nurture those relationships, get more clients, practice your messaging, and maybe experiment with your thought leadership, then you're in the right place. 

    But a podcast with those values is not easy to create. We're not just here plugging in a microphone, sitting around a table, and just shooting the breeze with your best friend. To create a podcast with intention, the effort is a long game. And some days, those days of creating the podcast can feel long as well, and very isolating. Especially with the digital world, we're always on screens and have a lot of technology in our faces and in our ears, but we're also busy with our real, quote, unquote, real life. You know, outside of work, friends, family, life in general, there's so much busyness that we are looking to slow right down, in our world. 

    In the last few months, I've been hearing this a lot. I've been hearing you say you want to do less, or pare down this chaotic life that we're in to be less, do, do, do, and just be for once, just be in your space. Everyone is also, you know, looking at your bank statements or, you know, if you don't go through it in a fine tooth comb like most average people, then at least you're looking at the bottom line, right? We're scrimping, saving, hoping for the same, or having more with spending less. 

    And that was the scary thing I was alluding to at the beginning. It's like, oh, man, if people aren't investing in a podcast, what am I doing? What am I here for, right? And there's been a lot of talk in the podcasting world, too, where people have put their shows on pause or they stopped it all together because of health reasons. Health is a big issue right now, too. So many of my clients either went through a huge health concern themselves that, impacted their capacity, or they became a family caregiver to someone, focusing their time on that. And, yeah, they still want a podcast, but figuring out, what does that look like now? 

    So in my world, it's less scary, because people still want to podcast. It is still something that's fun and that people see meaning from it. So podcasting isn't going away, but in this world that we're in, what does it look like to do less for your podcast? 

    [MUSIC IN]

    Let's switch over to the podcast listeners themselves. Today, listeners are listening less, in terms of how many shows they dedicate themselves to. So listening to an average of nine shows a week last year in 2023 to only eight shows this year in 2024. That's all from Edison Research's Infinite Dial Reports for those years. Links in the show notes if you want to go back and prove stats, if you're a big stats lover. But okay. Although listening time has gone up, so there's probably more shows now. There's more choice, and the episodes have gotten a little longer. But the thing here is that each listener is choosing to have fewer individual shows to listen to. They still want the content. Doesn't matter how long the content is, but they're being more choosy about which shows they're sticking around for. And overall, like I said, podcasting is still popular. It still grows year over year. 

    So I'm not saying to stop your podcast, you know, unless that really is your goal, and it hasn't been fun for you to produce podcasts, so I get that. But these listeners are being choosy. So let's be choosy, too, about how we create our shows. We want to keep them fun and interesting and engaging for your listeners. Because if your listeners are choosing quality over quantity, let's make sure your show is the best quality it can be, but also with the time and energy that you have to create it. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    You know, Nic Redman actually talks about this, too, in the latter half of our conversation on episode 86. That's just the episode before this one. How after a year of her podcast, she reconvened and wondered, you know, what is this all about? Who am I serving? How does this podcast serve, you know, that ecosystem of what you're doing? And I bet a lot of podcasters, and I bet you are thinking about this, too, you know, even though we are continuing to create, we also need to take a step back to wonder, okay, is this doing what I want it to do? And if not, how can I make a shift, but still keeping up a consistency and quality, that's integral to the values of the show, and, of course, your ideal listener. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So I'm going to break down a couple of ideas here. These are some ideas that my clients have actually taken on. And like I've always said, each podcast is going to be unique, and so everyone's going to have a different approach. And like anything else, there's no one right answer. Because we're here to redefine success. At the top of the show. I talked about your goals. Your goal is going to be different from everybody else's goal. So what is your goal? How do you want to redefine your success for your podcast? Because it's not going to come down to just the download numbers. What does that even mean? So what does success look like to you? And how can you do less and save your sanity, all while still having some fun podcasting? Sounds like a tall order, but like I said, we're going to break it down. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    One of my personal mantras is, if it's not fun, I'm not doing it. But like everything else in my life, that's not a hard or fast rule. There are many factors to consider, what fun is and what I can control and cannot control to make that experience more enjoyable. So when you take a look at everything you do on your podcast, and I mean everything, what stands out to you? So on a very general level, I'm just going to go through some very general things on creating your podcast. 

    So first I want you to actually write it all down. If you already have a checklist of items, awesome. Go through that too. If you don't, take a few minutes, let's write it all out right now and I'll help you brainstorm here. Start with the idea that you have for an episode. You know, how do you organize that? Do you have an organization system for that? And then from there, how do you draft your episode and your thoughts? If you have guests, what are those steps to make that guest happen to come on your show? Including, you know, asking them first, the follow up, the scheduling, the recording, collecting their information. I touched on the recording. So let's get into that. 

    Recording of the episode. What is that process? Like, what is that process? If you have guests, what is that process? If it's a solo episode, what is that process? If you do more of a narrative style and you're pulling clips from different things, how do you actually record and create your podcast episodes? And then of course after that, the podcast isn't finished. It still has to be polished up and get out into the world. 

    So the post production side, this can include editing, scheduling. Do you also have to publish it to a blog? Do you write transcripts, show notes, create graphics, images? These graphics and images, they could also be part of the promotion. What are you doing to share the episode and market your show? Do you email the guest and thank them? Do you make social media posts? What about a newsletter? All of that is a lot of work and I'll be the first to admit it, not all of it is that fun. My mantra, if it's not fun, I'm not doing it. But back to your values. Let's not have this whole overwhelming thing derail you and this list. 

    On a general overview from that list, what sticks out like a sore thumb or maybe even as you're writing, the one thing on the list, what made you go, ugh, or even make a really cringey face. What was that that made that emotion creep up? Or maybe another way to look at it could be asking yourself, why do you have that on your checklist in the first place? Does it actually align with your values for your podcast? Or did you add it because, well, everybody else seems like they're doing it. So if it's there, can you do it differently so it's more efficient, or can you take it out altogether? Would you be able to do that one thing alongside something else so that you can get two for the price of one under one task? 

    This reminds me a lot, actually, with episode 84 with Craig Constantine. He talks a bit about publishing schedules and quote, he says, if you're doing things all by yourself, weekly is insane. And I would even say if you have a little bit of support, that is still insane. I mean, just listen to that very general list I rattled off a few minutes ago. Podcasting is an insane amount of work. But like Craig says in the episode, he streamlines what he's not liking and constantly auditing his workflow so that it continues to stay fun for him in the capacity that he needs. 

    [MUSIC IN] Remember, too, that your podcast is a learning journey. What you did on episode 1 is not the same as what you'll do for episode 10, 20, or even 100. Yes, they still could sound the same. You might have, you know, same intro, you have the guest, and then you have an outro. The format could still be the same. But, how you create those episodes can differ. You learn with each and every episode you create, even if you're not, like, fully aware that's happening. Yeah, each time, you get to improve one small thing with each episode, whether that's the actual content of what people will hear, or the process in creating that episode. The podcast grows alongside you as a podcaster. 

    And since each podcast is unique, each host is unique, you are your own unique selling point, and your voice is a unique thumbprint, that nobody else has. You get to decide what works, what needs improvement, and what can stop. So, experiment, no one magic blueprint is going to solve all your problems. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    So say you want more capacity. You need more time. Like Craig was saying, it's insane, a weekly show. So maybe think about changing to every other week instead of weekly. You can always go back to weekly when your capacity is not as limited, in this current season, every other week gives you more time to incorporate breathing space and spacing out your workload. But that doesn't mean, if you're still recording, editing, and publishing right up to the deadline, even when this schedule is adjusted and you feel like it's still a lot to handle, you might need to actually take a look at your calendar as a whole and schedule in time to do specific tasks, so it doesn't feel so overwhelming at the last minute. 

    So what I mean is, if, for example, on your previous schedule you had one week to record, edit, and publish, you can now spread that out over two weeks. So maybe record on one day, take a break for a few days, do anything else you need to do, then come back, edit your show, then take a break, do what you need to do, and then come back again and do the post production, like the scheduling and the publishing and all that sort of stuff. 

    You can implement this by adding it to your calendar. So scheduling in those editing and publishing dates, so they are there and blocked out for you. For example, I know a lot of my clients, they like to double check on things and make sure that the scheduling is done like two days before the publishing date. That gives you some buffer time in case you get sick or you're like, I'm going to procrastinate and not do the podcast. But at least it's in your calendar to remind you that you've got to do this this week. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    Another option could be thinking about shorter episodes. For example, if you like editing but it still feels like a slog, think about shorter episodes. Nothing says you have to create an episode of a certain length. That's actually some old mindset from the old TV standards, when you had to create 22 minutes, there was eight minutes of commercial time to fill. On a podcast, whatever time the content needs is the time it will be. Shorter episodes on interview style shows can also look like doing a bit more on the show prep side of things. 

    So, what you could do is review your current interviews that you've done and think about, you know, are you hitting record and stop only because you scheduled a one hour recording time. You know, you're just chatting away and then you're like, okay, well the time's almost up, so I'm gonna ask you one last question. Well, maybe you don't need to schedule a one hour recording time. Maybe start changing that to a 45 minute recording time. So as the times get shorter, over time you're gonna get better at getting to the meat of the conversation and what you want to get out of the conversation so it doesn't just sort of like, drag out for that one hour timeframe. This way you're honing in on your interview skills and you're forced to kind of focus on the topic at hand and have less tangents. 

    Or perhaps just to make things shorter, skip the pleasantries, skip the big bios, skip the how did you get here History stuff, and just get straight to the meat of the episode. There are various ways to cut down on an episode time, and these were just some little examples. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    One last advice is, maybe not a popular one, but like I've said before, I'm not here to do what everyone else is doing, especially just for the sake of everything is content type of an idea. You know, in my radio days, that had a lot of impact on your mental health. When you're like, everything I do is going to be part of my show. That's a lot of pressure. So my last idea, which again, isn't say, you should do this, but I want to give you permission that it is an option, it's a possibility, to stop podcasting altogether. Shock, horror, I know, I know. 

    But as I said at the start of the show, if it's not fun right now, why are you doing it? Okay, so stopping can look like various forms. For one, a hiatus, just going to take a brief pause, or stopping and actually ending the show completely. But there's a gray zone here as well, right? It's not black or white. It's not one or the other. So to give you an idea of this hiatus, if you want to just pause for, say, a season, create your last episode, and then either explain in that last episode of it’s own or within the intro and outro that, the podcast is going on hiatus, let your listeners know why, and about approximately when you'll be back.

    It's only kind of fair when you think about it in terms of, like, a relationship. You've built up this relationship, and so you're just going to let them know, I'm going on a bit of a break. I need that break. Here are the reasons. I mean, you don't have to go in detail, obviously, but I think listeners really appreciate that. And they're going to wait for you to come back, essentially, because they're like, I get it. I'm in the same boat. I need a break, too. We'll come back together. 

    But on that train of thought, it's kind of the same, too. If you completely stop and cancel your show, don't ghost your listeners. It'd be really nice to give your show a proper farewell that it deserves. You've put a lot of effort into it. You know, whether you have only created a handful of episodes or you're on episode 100 or going into episode 500. You've put a lot of effort into this, so go out with the heart and values that you originally put into it. You've created a community here, and they would love to celebrate this goodbye along with you. 

    But of course, all of this is easier said than done. Ending your show by just, like, not doing anything anymore is also very legitimate. It's called podfading, where you just stop and ghost your listeners and you don't come back to it and you're like, I have some episodes recorded, but I got stuff. Life, it's a very real thing. And you don't have to come back to your podcast. Podfading is real, because, yeah, life. 

    You know, I personally went through that with my previous podcast about hosting international students. It's called the Homestay Kitchen. We had to stop because Covid, the world stopped. Students were not arriving, and I had a four year old to take care of while running my podcasting business during COVID So life right? Podcast gone cold turkey ghosted everyone? No, I think we did one episode about COVID and how we don't have any students right now and we might be back, and then we just never came back because life. But what I'm saying is there's no one right answer. Every podcast will go through its own journey and they will have their own path to take, too. 

    But starting with your podcast values to see what's jumping out at you right now that you want to stop doing in your podcast tasks, then you can look back and really evaluate to see what you can do to tweak that task to have it feel better or, yeah, just stop it altogether and not do that part. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So as we start to wrap up this episode and just like this very natural time in the Northern Hemisphere, we're all turning inwards. We're cozying up in the fall and hibernating for winter coming up. So let's do a bit of collective rest for you and your podcast because I know we all need it right now. So what does rest look like to you as a podcaster? I'd love to know. How are you doing less for your show? As always, send me a note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com or leave me an email to visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com. 

    On the next episode. I have a very special conversation because I wanted to make sure my guest was able to use what she needed to make sure that her side of the podcast was as effective as possible. For her. So it'll sound a little bit different because she'll be outside recording on her iPad. I'll take you along through the experience with the Deaf Queen Boss, Kellina Powell. Kellina empowers deaf and hard of hearing women to express themselves fully to be heard in the hearing world with confidence. So I had a lot of fun with Kalina on this episode. You'll want to hear what she does to be a podcast guest on my show and how you can also make your podcast more accessible and possible for anyone who's hard of hearing. 

    And speaking of that, of course, a full transcript of the episode is on my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com, you can also find it on some of your apps too, so make sure that if you need the transcript, it's there for you. So we'll catch you next time when we chat with Kellina Powell, the Deaf Queen Boss. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    11 November 2024, 10:00 am
  • 42 minutes 49 seconds
    Warm Up to a Healthier, More Confident Voice with Nic Redman - EP 86

    What can you do to keep your voice in tip-top shape? As podcasters, we use our voices a lot. Chances are, that essential instrument of yours has temporarily abandoned you in the past. Whether the symptom stems from getting sick or from overuse, waking up to croaks, rasps, or silence is an awful feeling, especially if deadlines or interviews are looming. In this timely episode, Mary returns to the mic on the heels of her own voice loss to talk swollen vocal folds and slug tongue with Nic Redman, a vocal coach and voiceover artist who has spent almost 20 years helping professional speakers hone their voices.

    Nic is a font of healthy voice inspiration, sharing everything from the importance of hydration (and the truth about which beverages count) to warmups that will get your tongue trilling, your lips flapping, and your vocal cords folding. Come to terms with what you can and can’t control about your listener’s reaction to your unique voice and be reminded about what a privilege it is, literally and figuratively, to have a voice. This episode is packed with light science and exaggerated facial expressions you can practically see, all in the interest of keeping you talking for years to come.

    Join Nic and Mary for interactive vocal warmups and other voice health tips:

    • Silly faces and weird noises that can help your voice even when you’re sick
    • Why you need to get out of your own head and stop self-editing your voice
    • How to sound just as energized at the top of your episode as you do at the end
    • The benefit of vocal warmups beyond just keeping your voice healthy

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Engage with Nic:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    >

    MARY: > That is a good lion roar. That's what I like to do. The trills and the lion roars. Ah, vocal warmups. They are really, really handy. Actually, you know, on my last episode, I did talk about losing my voice and how your voice is truly what makes or breaks your podcast. And, you know, it's been a month since that and I still feel a little dry in the throat. So, you know, these vocal warmups are really, really helping. 

    And luckily enough, if you can see a silver lining to losing my voice, I already had this interview scheduled with Nic Redman when I lost my voice. So kind of good timing because she gives us some really great tips. Nic has recorded and spoken for a living for nearly 20 years and coaches people to vocally free at home on the mic every day. She has been featured multiple times on BBC and Times Radio, as well as the Guardian, Irish Times and the Metro. So she really knows what she's talking about here. And some of these tips about podcasting while you're sick is so great because we're doing it real live in the moment with me, but also that preventative side that so many podcasters don't think about. And you know what, sometimes I skip over it myself. 

    So this episode is really great about learning that preventative side too. So it's all about before you ever even lose your voice from using it too much, you gotta listen to Nic and what she has to say. But aside from the vocal health, we also get into the depths of the problems of self monitoring your own voice. That leads to a lot of concern for how we sound and how we're perceived versus owning our voice. She gives a lot of great examples for this during this episode. So make sure you practice along, when we're doing our vocal warmups and start thinking about how you can also get out of your own head, because these vocal warmups are about more than just warming up those vocal cords. 

    So, yeah, get ready. Let's do some shoulder rolls while we are listening to the intro music of this episode. I always forget about the shoulders. Oh, you're gonna love these tips from Nic, it's just reminding me about all the things I need to do. 

    All right, this is episode 86 with Nic Redman on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

    > 

    MARY: Nic thank you so much for joining me here on my podcast. I love that we finally get to meet over this platform.

    >

    NIC: Me too. Thanks for having me.

    MARY: Okay, first off, let's just get right to the nitty gritty about the health of your voice, because one, podcasters never think about that until they get sick. And two, I lost my voice four days ago before this recording, so I'm still a little froggy. Excuse the frog in my throat.

    NIC: That's alright.

    MARY: And I remember too, actually, in my radio days when I used to work in radio, coaching voices, reading scripts, and getting the announcers behind the mic and stuff. Whenever the announcers got sick, they lost their voice, but they still needed to talk. And I feel like that is also the same as a podcaster. It's a podcaster's worst nightmare come to life. 

    So what can podcasters do? Aside from, oh, just stop using your voice, because we get that advice a lot.

    NIC: Yeah, not useful, is it? 

    MARY: No…

    NIC: We can't.

    MARY: …so what can we do?

    NIC: Okay, I love this conversation because, like you say, often with podcasters and professional speakers, it's they come to me when they need a cure, not for prevention. You know, it's always cure rather than prevention. So I love when we get to talk about prevention, how lucky all your listeners are to get a few wee tips before it happens. Because I have to say, I've been in your position as a, as a voiceover artist and as a podcaster, and I've lost my voice and, you know, lost money and lost work, and it's just so stressful. So I'm so sorry that you're going through it. 

    If we were going through this as a consultation, she says metaphorically pushing her glasses off her hose, the first thing I would ask you, of course, is what's happened. So it's always important for the, as the voice user to sort of clarify for yourself if the voice loss is because of illness, like a cold, or cold and flu season, or allergies, or whether it's overuse, that's the first thing. 

    Because if it's overused, it's often not as simple as, oh, this will pass in a few days. Rest, hydrate, extra vitamins, you know, a few little rehab exercises, they'll be fine. If you're losing your voice a lot or you feel tired towards the end of your batch recording days or big interviews or live episodes where the adrenaline's pumping, then it is worth having a little natter to someone like me just to work out what's going on with the technique. So, that's the first thing I would always ask, but I know that yours is illness. So we'll go from an illness perspective > for this particular consultation.

    MARY: Yes. Thank you.

    NIC: The first thing is definitely hydration. That's easy, right? Just drink loads. Loads, and loads, and loads of extra fluids. People get a bit hung up on what you can and can't drink. The truth about hydration is it's very, very simple. All fluids count except alcohol. I'm really sorry if that's your tipple. Just chase that whiskey with water. > You can drink tea. It will still help you hydrate systemically within the body, which will hopefully, at some point, help the vocal folds and the mucus and the vocal folds. Even coffee, shock, horror, it's still fluid, it still counts as systemic hydration in the body. There are some elements of diuretic, i.e. it makes you go to the toilet a little bit more. But the actual more recent research about coffee is that you would have to drink an absolute tonne of it for it to actually have any effect on your voice. 

    So people can relax about coffee, espresso, martinis, whatever you need before you hit record, it's fine. I mean, of course, the caffeine might exacerbate reflux or the dairy might have an impact on the thickness in your mouth, but you can still just have your coffee for hydration. So, look, just hydrate loads. Because if you're coughing or if you're ill and creating more mucus that's thick, you will need the extra fluids to help counterbalance that. The first thing is hydration. 

    Two easy things, hydrate and rest. But we all know that rest is not easy. Sometimes it's a privilege to say that rest is easy… 

    MARY: Mhmm. 

    NIC: …shout out to anybody with a job or caregiving responsibilities or small people in their lives… 

    MARY: Yes. 

    NIC: …but if you can rest, that can really help because your body needs time to process the illness. And the more you can rest, the quicker you'll get over it. If you have to, like, record straight away, like, there's no getting over it. There are some rehab exercises you can do, but I say this with caution because obviously, if you have no voice, sometimes there's nothing to do but rest. As in rest your voice as well. I always say to people, manage the expectations of the person who's expecting you to record. 

    So if you can at any, any possibility delay it, push it back, you know, give yourself an extra day, because you do want to be on point. And it's better waiting a day and be slightly after deadline and sounding great than, you know, showing up half-cocked, as it were. 

    So that aside, if you do need to record, there's a group of exercises called, um, well, shorthand. We call them SOVT or Semi Occluded Vocal Tract Exercises. And they're designed to help release tension in the body, in the vocal tracts, regulate the breath flow, the airflow, so that the vocal folds vibrate nice and easily. And when they're swollen a little bit, if you're ill, or covered in extra thick mucus, these exercises are really good at just waking them up, encouraging them to close in a more consistent and easy way, which makes speaking better. So those exercises, although they have a big fancy name, are very simple. It's just gliding up and down your range with a partially occluded mouth space. For example…

    MARY: Yeah, I need an example.

    NIC: …Yeah. Oh, it's fine. I've got loads. Uh, this one > gentle lip trill is a nice one.

    MARY: Oh, I love those. Yes.

    NIC: Those do elude some people, though, so please don't worry, they're not for everybody. And a couple of nice other examples are big puffy TH sounds. So if you stick your tongue out and let your cheeks get nice and puffy like a hamster or a chipmunk and just go as if you're. > You've got your tongue right, like you're doing a TH sound, you know, like this. > So imagine you're just saying this, but you never get past the TH. >

    MARY: That's a good one.

    NIC: Okay. These. > That creates exactly the same environment as the lip chill does in your sort of throat area. And then the other ones you can do are any puffy fricatives, really. So these sounds like a puffy V. > You want to be aiming for a lovely feeling. Like the sound is all vibrating at the front of the mouth, rather than stuck at the back. So you don't want, like, >... 

    MARY: Yeah, that would hurt.

    NIC: ...you just want to. > Or a Z > or because different accents and different languages have different sound inventories, a puffy worse sound, like you're, you know, you're doing a trumpet with your mouth. >

    MARY: I can totally picture you doing that. That's awesome.

    NIC: What a great job I have. I'm glad there's no video. > I've got my face on the Internet doing this far too much. So it's a real free treat to not have my face in. So those exercises, I won't go into the science of it, but basically they put your larynx in a really happy, easy, free place, and they make it really easy for the vocal folds to close. 

    So if you're ill, what you might find when you glide up and down. And you could try this if you want you might find a few gaps in that glide. So you might end up with something that sounds like M. > Right? Which is because there's swelling because you've been coughing a lot or there's a lot of mucus and mucus in the way. But the thing to do is just keep gently gliding and keep gently gliding because what you'll find is your body, your incredible brain and body go, oh, that's weird. We usually make a sign there what's going on, you know, and I mean, this is not obviously the science, like the, there's real proper neuron stuff happening here. But this is how my brain processes it. It like sends everybody to work fixing basically inside. 

    So if I'm used to going, > and my body goes, > then my brain's going to go, whoa, we need to fix that. There's something wrong. And it starts helping you. And basically it encourages the vocal folds to close nicely and that will help you sound a little bit more healthy, vocally healthy, and get the mucus moving as well.

    MARY: Oh, I like that because yeah, so I lost the voice on Sunday, didn't do anything without it. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, got a little bit of it back. And I was doing some of this stuff yesterday because I thought, oh, like, what's taking it so long? 

    So I like your idea of like, the brain needs to make this happen. And so I think that's why I was like, ooh, today, yay. I have this interview. My voice is actually working for once all week. So this is nice.

    NIC: Oh, that's good. The other things I would add to complement the sort of comfort whenever you're getting through this is, people often love steaming. So taking a, well I have this peculiar looking sort of ceramic inhaler with a tube that looks a little bit dodgy to be honest, but you fill it with hot water and you suck on it gently and it's a really nice soothing in the vocal tract. 

    And then the other thing you can do as well is the sort of. The newest modern day version of steaming is using a nebulizer, like a personal nebulizer. So a little handheld device. There's one internationally you can get that's called VocalMist. They use a 0.9% saline solution and you use that for 10 minutes. And what it does is it helps the mucus on the vocal folds and it reduces, here comes the science, it reduces phonation threshold pressure for up to one hour, i.e. and makes your vocal folds vibrate more easily for a period of time. So they're really good for supporting your health, your vocal wellness, if you're under the weather.

    MARY: Wait, how does a nebulizer work? When you were describing it, I was thinking of those neti pots for your nasal sinuses. But is that similar?

    NIC: Yeah. So it's like an electrical device. If you Google, like, handheld, handheld nebulizer, you'll see it's like a little white sort of rectangular cube, like box, > I suppose, with a little spout on it. And you screw off the top, and you put a little vial of saline, note 0.9%. Very important. That's the same makeup as the saline in your body, as your mucus and stuff. And then you turn it on, and it mists, turns it into a mist. 

    MARY: Oh.

    NIC: And the mist actually reaches your vocal folds, which, with steaming, they're not sure. The droplets of steam actually hit the vocal folds. These days, the droplets of steam are bigger than the drops of mist, so it soothes your throat when you steam, and it helps thin out the mucus in your mouth. It feels nice. It's like an internal hug. But they're not actually sure if it gets to the vocal folds anymore. Whereas the nebulizer, the science and the research today, it currently shows that the mist does reach your vocal folds and hydrates them from the outside in. So the mist is absorbed at a cellular level because it matches the chemical makeup of the mucus in there, and therefore it creates a friendlier environment for the vocal folds. 

    So they're really good if you can get your hands on one. In the interest of disclosure, if I've been out to a party and had a few too many whiskeys, sometimes the next morning, a little hit on the nebulizer really helps bring my voice back to life. > I've been on the karaoke, doing a bit of a Bon Jovi.

    MARY: Yeah, those are the hacks that most people are, like, looking for. What's the hack?

    NIC: But, like, not pretend. We're all perfect. I have an episode of my podcast, actually, called how to keep your voice healthy during a festive party season. Nice. Because that's when I lost my voice, was when I went to, so I used to do a podcast called the Voiceover Social Podcast. And we have meetups, and I went to the Christmas do. I was already a bit under the weather because I host that party. It was like chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, like a wedding. And then my husband to stand up, and he was doing a gig in the evening, and me and a load of the people from that went to the standup gig. And were chat, chat, chat, laugh, laugh, laugh, chat, chat, chat. And I woke up the next day and I had no voice. I had no voice for 10 days and I lost almost a five figure amount of money in that week anyway. > So that's why I have that podcast episode and that's why I have all the hacks.

    MARY: Yes. Things we learn from our mistakes.

    NIC: Exactly. Win, learn, never lose. 

    MARY: Yep. Okay, so let's get out of the sickness mindset, but into the, when we're just doing our regular thing. We're going to be recording a podcast episode. Vocal warmups, 

    NIC: my favourite. 

    MARY: Okay. Honesty on my end. Now, even as a professional myself, you know, I do voiceover stuff too. I worked in radio, I know all the things. But there are many days that I don't even do proper warmups and I feel like it has to do more with the podcasting side. Like if I do the voiceover work, I'm doing the warmups. But when it comes to podcasting, it's more slack, I think today we're, we're trying to record so many different things for our show that we're like, we're going to do one task and the next task and the next task and we don't do the warmups. 

    So not necessarily looking for that hack or shortcut, but what can we be doing to quickly warm up before we go and set up our microphone for our recordings?

    NIC: Yes, I'm a big fan of, I suppose what, you know, they would call it the personal training world, compound exercises. So, you know, doing things that, that work multiple areas or doing a couple of things at once. So the very least I do, and I'm, I'm with you, Mary, because sometimes I drop the ball, or sometimes as a voiceover, something comes in and they need it back now, you know, and you have to jump in the booth. There's always time. There's always time to do something if I'm really honest with myself. But sometimes I take it for granted. 

    So what I love is, for example, a really, really simple one is some nice big, gentle kind of luxurious shoulder rolls and what I call a chewy hum. So you get a hum on the go that gets your lips nice and buzzy, but then you chew your lips roaring like you're eating something. So, again this is audio related, so I'll describe it as much as I can, but big shoulder rolls and then >.

    MARY: Like you're.

    NIC: And again with the hum, you're aiming to feel a really nice buzz at the front of the face, not > at the back, it really helps to kind of close your eyes and imagine you're eating something dead yummy. > I find if we're going to put an intention behind this, so you're. And then you can glide up and down your range. > It's a really good one. Oh, that felt really nice, actually.

    MARY: Yeah, that was great.

    NIC: So what you're getting there is you're releasing the shoulders, which is great for nervous tension, great for when you're on a microphone, because we often. The shoulders do a lot of our communicative talking for us as well. They're up, they're down, you know, so given the shoulders, release is really nice for the voice. The humming gets the lips released. It also encourages the voice forward a little bit, if we're thinking a bit like, sort of image based with resonance. And it also gets the airflow regulated. And, um, it gets the vocal folds vibrating and woken up as well. 

    And then, of course, when you glide light up and down, you're increasing the variety. You're showing your voice the high notes and the low notes that it can reach. Because a lot of the time with podcasting things, sometimes people feel they don't sound as vocally varied as they thought they did when they listen back. So, they listen back and they go, oh god, I sound really monotone or dull or. I thought I sounded more excited about that or something. So a very easy glide like that just shows your body the range that it's capable of, so it gives you more options. So that's one really good exercise. 

    And then I'm also a big fan of exercises that help you go straight into either, you know, practising your intro or practising a few questions. So there's an exercise again, grateful there's no video right now. But if you stick your tongue out on your lower lip like this was called, slug tongue. That's what it was called when it was taught to me, as in my book. I think if you want a picture, stick your tongue out on your lower lip and you're letting your mouth kind of relax down. If you imagine your best sort of Macaulay Culkin shocked face.

    MARY: Ah, yes.

    NIC: And that your tongue out and then you're going to speak through days of the week. Well, the first thing you can do is speak days of the week, months of the year and count one to ten with your tongue out like this. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, like that. But what you can do with that one is take the intro of your podcast and say it with that slug tongue hanging out. So you're like, hi, thank you so much for joining me, welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name's Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups. Then you can take your tongue in and go, Hi, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name is Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups. 

    So you're taught you're sort of practicing your intro to get your vocal energy going. You're sticking your tongue out, which sort of makes it harder. So that kind of wakes up the energy of the voice a little bit. You know, it wakes up those other articulators because when you put your tongue back in and you speak, it's like, oh, my god, this is so easy now. So that's a really good one for practicing with your intro or your questions. And, this is the final one. I mean, you'll have to just stop me at some point, Mary, because I could go on forever. > Like, I literally wrote the book on this.

    MARY: Yes.

    NIC: If you put your finger, pointy finger, horizontally across your lips, as if you were doing a moustache mime, you know, in a sketch show,...

    MARY: Yes

    NIC: …but down, lower, in front, like between your lips, and then you're gonna go. > And then you're going to glide up and down your range. > 

    MARY: Yes.

    NIC: Really nice for loosening the lips, getting the breath going, getting the vocal folds and the range going. But you can also do that one with your intro. So. > Hi, thanks for joining me today, my name is Nic Redman and this is the Voice Coach Podcast > 

    And then you can go straight into it with a really big vocal energy. Because some of my podcast clients say by the end of it, I'm really warmed up, but the start always feels a bit low energy and I always end up going back to re-record my intro because I feel like it doesn't match. Do you know how relaxed I was at the end? So this is a really good one because the last thing you want to be doing as a podcast is having to re-record and edit stuff. I mean, who can be bothered? > So doing this, > oh thank you so much, > gets the energy going so you can go in with a bang.

    MARY: I love this. And also because when, when I do this work too, with people that they're, like, really stuck on this, I need to sound professional thing. And I'm like, warm ups is not about professional, it's about being fun. It is about going outside of your comfort zone. And so we need to act silly. This is a silly thing…

    NIC: Yeah. 

    MARY: …And I feel like a lot of podcasters don't realize that even when they are behind the mic, they don't have to put on that professional hat. You know, this isn't a broadcast radio, BBC, NPR, CBC-type show. This is something that is about you and your message and your voice. 

    And so when we connected over Instagram earlier this year, it was really about how as speakers, we're not able to control how someone reacts to our voice. So there's two parts of this, right? It's the, listeners has their own work to do to figure out what's bothering them, but also, you yourself as the speaker, you've got some work to do too. So, tell me more about this. Expand on it.

    NIC: Yeah. So one of the things that I come across most with podcast host clients who come to me for help, both independent and in corporate space, is this idea that they're constantly focused on how they sound. 

    MARY: Mhm. 

    NIC: You know, podcasting comes through the filter of the edit, the production, the sound effects, the intro, how it looks, how I'm presenting it, what is my logo, what is my image, what is my tile for, like for Spotify and everything. And the same happens with the voice. And people are like, how should I sound? What do I sound like? I need to sound professional, I need to sound engaging. And they come to me and they go, I think I sound to X or I don't think I sound Y enough. And that's the problem for me is this self monitoring and editing of the voice when you're using it, rather than focusing on that connection with the listener and going, doesn't matter how I sound, it matters how they feel. And it's about sort of changing that focus, you know, so we did connect about that whole, I cannot control how someone hears my voice. 

    Your audience may or may not be aware of the intricacies of Irish politics, right? But I'm a Northern Irish person of a particular religion, right? Technically, people may hear my voice and get really angry because I sound how I sound. Right? If they're from a particular part of Northern Ireland, for example. Now, I cannot do anything about that, in the same way that you might have a listener who has a teacher that they didn't like that sounded like you once. So in their head they carry this vocal baggage with them, this auditory baggage that they kind of listen through a lens with. 

    So I always say to people, listen, who cares? Because you literally have no idea who's listening to you and you cannot do anything about it. All you can do is be as yourself on the microphone as possible. Or as whoever you need to be on the microphone as possible. And your listeners will find you. And the ones who you annoy will not stick around. And they're not your people anyway.

    MARY: Yes, Exactly.

    NIC: Because when we're worrying too much about how we sign, we forget about what we're saying. And that's the point. And funny enough, this links to warm ups. Mary. Because the reason I think warm ups are important is, yes, it's about saving time in the edit and in the record. So, A, you save money, B, you save sanity and your relationship with your editor. > But also, if you warm up, then your voice is ready and you don't have to think about it. And you could focus more on the words. You can focus more on the impact that you're having and the connection you're trying to make with the listener. 

    So warming up is incredibly generous for your listener and also really good for your voice. Because you are saying, this is important to me. It's not about being professional. It's about caring about what you do and caring that the information that you're going to say is getting to the people in the way that it needs to, to make them feel in the way that you want them to.

    MARY: I love that tie back into the vocal warmups because that was one of my thoughts. And I'm sure, like, a lot of people too, is like, when you said, who cares? Because I say that too. I'm like, who cares what other people think? It's about how you want and want to feel in this moment. But them who cares? Is easier said than done. So tying it back into that vocal warmup piece is so key. So thank you so much for making that connection and for sharing that.

    NIC: Yeah. Because it's, warm ups help you get to know your voice and enjoy it. And you said fun. You said warm ups are about having fun. And I completely agree with that. And you know, if you've got a guest, do them with the guest, because you're darn right that guest is going to be nervous or excited. Like, do a few with them. Break the ice, record it, don't record it, doesn't matter. Sure, it's all content, let's be honest. But, like, it's really, really generous, important to do your warm up. 

    And I have to say, you're right, loving your voice and appreciating how you sound and not caring how other people think you sound is a big piece. And I don't say that lightly because I have done a lot of work with people on that. But remember that if you're. If you're making the step to do a podcast and put your voice out there, you clearly believe you have something to say that is bigger than your ego around your voice.

    MARY: Actually, this new client of mine said the exact same thing where she's like, this is the biggest fear I have is sharing my voice. Because she used to be a journalist, it was more about writing, and she, now that she's got her podcast out there, she's just like, oh, oh, I'm so embarrassed with my voice. So, what would you say to someone like that who's still embarrassed about their voice?

    NIC: I would say to them, remember what a privilege it is to have a voice, both literally and figuratively. I have worked with many people who have a big voice baggage for very legitimate reasons. You know, whether it's bosses, or family members, or social circles who have told them their voice is not valid or that they are not worthy of being heard. But we have to take responsibility for the fact that we have a voice in the first place. 

    So we have to step up to that fear and go, it's incredible that I have a platform, and it's incredible and a privilege that I have a voice to start with. So you just have to kind of give yourself a shake, do the silly warm ups, listen to yourself over, and over, and over again. And the more you listen, the more you'll get used to yourself and your sound and the more you'll hear the beauty in it. 

    And just remember how amazing is it the only thing we have in podcasting that is unique. The only thing. I'm sorry if you think your idea for podcasts is the most unique thing in the world…

    MARY: No.

    NIC: …It is not. It will have been done before. The only unique USP you have in podcasting is your voice. And that's the truth.

    MARY: Yeah, that's right. I say that a lot because your voice is like a thumbprint. Everyone's is unique. Like, I sound similar to my older sister, sure, but it is still me. The way I say something, the tone, the words I use, it is still you. And I love that you bring that to the table as well. 

    So you've been working in the podcasting space. You have your own show too. What have you seen that's changed or shifted at all in regards to voice in the podcasting scene?

    NIC: Thankfully, we're seeing a lot more diversity than we were. 

    MARY: Yeah.

    NIC: There's still a lot of work to be done with giving the underrepresented shows more space and more possibility to grow, I think. But there's definitely more diversity out there, which is really exciting. And luckily, a lot more women…

    MARY: Mhmm.

    NIC: …which is exciting. As someone who identifies very much as female, this is a really hard thing to be objective about. I say that slowly because I always get subjective and objective confused. And I have to really say it really slowly for my brain to. So, because I am such a podcast nerd, I obviously listen to loads of podcasts, but I also have my preferences. So, I feel like what I think is exciting in podcasting is probably because of the podcasts that I listen to.

    >

    MARY: That's right.

    NIC: But I just love that it's still an open forum. If you have a phone and access to the Internet, you can do a podcast in theory. So I just love the fact that it's still. I know there's a bit more, you know, chitter chatter about things becoming more commercial and it losing some of its grassroots charm, but the truth of it is, anybody can still do it, which is pretty cool.

    MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying, you have your own show, you have your own podcasting journey. And I've learned quite a lot from your over 80 episodes of your, the Voice Coach Podcast. They're great because they're. They're short and to the point. But what is your. What's been your biggest challenge of making the show for yourself?

    NIC: Oh, I mean, for me, it was starting as a weekly show and having to keep it up. So when I started that, the person who was producing, I had a team helping me with it. I was like, I'm going all in. And she was like, do weekly for a year and then see how you feel. So I did weekly for, yeah, a year, which was intense.

    MARY: Oh, yeah.

    NIC: I mean, even with somebody, you know, a decade's worth of experience and entire degrees in my subject, like, I, it was still like, okay, come on, I. Stay focused, stay strategized. Plan the next 10 episodes. Where are we going with this? What's happening? What's it linking to? What am I launching next? What are my people getting out of this? You know? 

    So it was keeping it focused and within, like, in line with the strategy and not just going, oh, god, I need an episode this week. I'll talk about hydration. Okay, so definitely keeping the consistency and the quality up, I think, was hard. And for me, when I first started, this was interesting, but I, and I think I reflected more on this when I wrote my book. When I first started the podcast, I think if I'm honest, I was doing it, it might, this is a bit weird, but I don't know if it's deep or whatever, but I felt like I was trying to prove things to my peers rather than serve my audience in a way. In the sense that I felt like I had to show all my academic research, all the links, all the facts, you know, make sure everyone knows I've got a master's degree in Vocal Pedagogy. I'm very well read, da da da. I'm very good. And I know this because of this book, and I know this because of this recent article. And I know this because of. I was like, my listeners don't care about that. They just want the fucking exercise, I feel like. 

    So as the show progresses towards, you know, the end of the year of weekly, I suddenly realise, obviously some of my peers listen and that's incredible and they're very complimentary about it. I love that. But it's for my clients. The podcast is for my clients. So I think keeping myself on track and remembering that I don't have to prove myself and my academic standing within this world was an interesting journey and I could just be myself and just do the work that I love doing for the people that I love doing it for was an interesting one. 

    And when I listened to the first one versus, you know, episode 80, whatever, I think you can really tell the difference in that, both my delivery and you know, at the start I was like, word for word scripting it and then reading it. I'm very good at reading something… 

    MARY: Right, exactly, yes.

    NIC: …as if I'm not reading something because that's being a voiceover,... 

    MARY: That’s right.

    NIC: …so nobody could tell. But towards the end it was much more bullet points. > I wasn't scripting it anymore. So that was an interesting challenge.

    MARY: I love that mindset shift. I went through that too, where when I started the show and even my business in podcasting, because I worked in radio for 20 years, was downsized in 2018. And then I thought, maybe I'll try this podcasting thing. Is this a thing? And I went into it thinking, oh, I need to show that I have the experience. I know what I'm doing. I've, you know, I did this, I did that, and I didn't have the academics behind it. 

    And it feels like that societal hierarchy of if you have a university degree, you are better, you know, people will like you more or whatnot. And I didn't. I went to a two year radio program 20 years ago, like, that, that all gets into your head. And I did the same thing. I scripted a Lot. And sometimes I still do, depending on how busy I am and stuff. Because I am a voiceover artist, I can do that. But yeah, I think when you get to that point of, I'm serving my listeners for my clients, for my people. Yeah, they don't care. It's back to that. Who cares, part. 

    NIC: Yeah. And it's funny, you know, one of the things that people talk most about with my podcast is at the time I had a water bottle that was really squeaky when you took the lid off. And people still come up to me and go, and every time I listen to your podcast, when you take a drink, I take a drink, > you know, like, because I was like, you know, um, I can't be bothered editing this squeak. So every time I need to take a drink of water, I'm going to take a drink of water. We do it together. It's collective, you know, it's like a collective hydration experience. And people always come up to me and go, I've got a squeaky bottle. Or like, you know, it's like Pavlov's dog. Every time they hear a squeak noise, they have to take a drink. > So it's those imperfections that I think can also become the charm.

    MARY: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because it's, it's an audio medium, so those squeaks work so well. So in that spirit and me still losing my voice, we're going to take a drink, everybody.

    NIC: Let's do it. Cheers. Or as we say in Ireland, sláinte. 

    >

    MARY: Yeah, so helpful. So, so helpful. I, I cannot wait for your show to come back because you're right, I do want just the little tips and the little tricks. So what, what are your podcasting plans?

    NIC: Oh, god, I have been mulling it over for far too long. I'm still mulling. I'm trying to decide whether I want to start a brand new show or whether I want to start, you know, do a limited series under the same banner as the Voice Coach Podcast. I'm not sure. I need to talk to some friends, some podcast friends and see what they think is the best thing to do. > But I have an idea because I'm working a lot more in corporate at the moment.

    MARY: Mhm.

    NIC: So, helping the people who host corporate podcasts to, um, be their best selves on the microphone and show up vocally as the experts and thought leaders that they want to be within their industry. So that's a really empowering, exciting side of the business that I'm moving into. So I'm wondering whether it might be themed or in that I'm not sure.

    MARY: Yes.

    NIC: Still mulling it over. Yeah.

    MARY: It's always going to be like what we were saying, who your listener is. What is that person wanting? Yeah.

    NIC: Yeah. Maybe they just want more tips. Mary, Mary, this is good market research for me. > Just need to get off my arse and onto the microphone and get the voice coach podcast going again.

    MARY: Well, like you said, you wrote the book on it, so you can talk about this endlessly. And I'm sure that it will be so, uh, valuable because I know the podcast as it is right now, now, it has been so valuable for me, so.

    NIC: Oh, thank you. That's so good to know.

    MARY: Yeah. Nic thank you so much for your time and your unofficial medical glasses off diagnosis with my voice. >

    NIC: Yes. Please see a medical professional and, uh, if not responsible for any pathologies, that maybe. There's my disclaimer.

    MARY: Exactly.

    NIC: Do seek professional help.

    MARY: Yes.

    NIC: If your voice changes for more than two weeks.

    >

    MARY: This has been so lovely. Thank you so much.

    NIC: Thank you.

    MARY: Oh, weren't those tips great? Yeah, the slug tongue she mentioned earlier, > like, those tongue twisters get easier after the slug tongue. > It’s a great one to go hand in hand with the lion's roar that I tend to do. I do the trills and the lion's roar. And this is how you do a lion's roar. It has to do with the tongue and all the muscles in your mouth and your jaw. And so you stick the tip of your tongue behind the bottom front teeth. Okay, so the tip of the tongue is at the bottom of your front teeth. You're going to try and stick your tongue out as far as you can and open up your mouth wide like a lion. But that tip of your tongue is still stuck to the back of your lower teeth. Okay. And then you're just going to exhale with a wide mouth and you go. > You're going to make like a lion's roar face, like my eyes, close, my cheeks, wrinkle all of it. Because you're really stretching out the back of your throat as well when you do that. And I find it goes really hand in hand with that slug tongue. 

    Because then you're also working your tongue or trying to relax your tongue, and then the trills is trying to relax your lips. > That is a tough one. But if you can relax your lips, that's what that does. 

    So many great tips from Nic. And I'll be sure to also link her book in the show notes because she says it's got some good pictures if you're a visual aspect person so you can go that way and read her book and look at her pictures. But also in the show notes, I will link to her podcast because like I said, I do listen to her show. She's got some great short episodes with vocal tricks and tips. So get more vocal warm ups through Nic and her podcast. You'll love it. 

    All right, and also just a quick reminder, if you are still listening to this episode before November 1st, or at least the end of the day on November 1st, I still have my giveaway going for a ticket for you to join me at the Podcasting For Business Conference that's happening November 13th through 15th. But on the 14th, right in the middle of it, I'll be on a panel all about using your voice. It's called Your Voice, Using It, Shaping It And Protecting It. And I would love for you to join me at that conference. I'm giving away a free ticket to it. And this is how you enter. 

    What you need to do between now when this episode is published to, uh, the end of the day on November 1st, all you need to do is leave me a voice note from my website because I want you to share your voice. So go to VisibleVoicePodcast.com There's a purple button there that says send voice mail. Click on that and I want you to leave a 90 second voice note from your device. Quickly state your name, where you're calling from, Hello, Mary Chan, long time listener, first time caller. And two, say and complete the following sentence stems, The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel, dot, dot, dot, and then end with today, what I love about my voice is, dot, dot, dot. Okay? I say leave a 90 second voice note, but if it cuts you off, feel free to continue on the next one. It's fine, it's fine because I just want you to share your voice. I would love to hear what someone said to you the first time. You were like, oh, my voice. Okay, maybe I won't do that anymore. It's happened to a lot of people, so I just want to hear it. And I would love to hear how you transitioned, through that to today. 

    And then I will draw from all the entries for that free ticket to the podcasting for business conference. Again, it's happening on November 13th through 15th, and it is hosted by Megan Dougherty of One Stone Creative. She was a guest on this podcast. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, that one's just fun because she talks all about research and reports, it's episode number 70. Make sure you get on that because, ooh, actually the 2024 report because I interviewed her, for that episode last year, 2023. But the new 2024 report is coming out this same week. If you are listening to when this podcast first came out at the end of October. So, lots of podcasting reports and information that I'm gonna be delving into. So if you're not into the stats and all that stuff, don't worry, leave it with me. > So, yeah, good luck with winning those tickets with me. Just send me your voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com. 

    On the next episode. I want to explore what it means to do less. There's so much overwhelm in the world these days. We're really, really busy in the world of podcasting in your own work, and then there's also your personal life and everything in between. And I've noticed when just talking to podcasters, to other people, just within my networking, creating a business and my friends and family, there is a lot happening and we are all trying to streamline and just do less. What does it mean if we did less and this specifically for a podcast? How do you do less around your show, yet still create episodes that you love? We're going to explore this, the next time, so join me then. 

    >

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    >

    28 October 2024, 9:00 am
  • 15 minutes 39 seconds
    Voice Health: Treat Your Podcasting Instrument With Care - EP 85

    How much do you prioritize your vocal health? Most of us, even if we work in the voice acting, podcasting, or broadcast industries, don’t think too much about our voices. But remember: if you don’t have a voice, you don’t have a podcast!

    In this episode, Mary breaks down what we can all do to take better care of our most important business asset. The solution can’t be to never speak or raise your voice except while you work, but preemptive planning, some mind-body connection, and a little (or a lot of) self-love go a long way to keeping those chords healthy for when you need them.

    Give your voice the TLC it deserves! Listen in to find out:

    • Why glugging water right before you speak doesn’t cut it
    • How to balance those fun, loud nights out with your podcast-related voice work
    • The mental component of taking care of your voice

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: Your voice is your number one instrument. This is something I talk about a lot. I mean, it's also one of the first things you see on my website, because without your voice, and take it from me, I lost my voice in the middle of September for almost a whole week. Without your voice, you don't have a podcast. So why is it, as podcasters, we don't think about our voice as much as, say, the person we want to interview, or the titles, the artwork, those aspects always get a lot of focus. But your voice, not so much. 

    So in this episode, we’re talking voice. Why it's not exactly what you hear in your head and how we can move forward to record more episodes with more love for your vocal cords and your heart. 

    This is episode 85 of the Podcasters Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    > 

    Welcome back to the show. And like I said at the start, I did lose my voice in the middle of September, 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    and I still feel like it's a little dry and scratchy. So bear with me. But I do sound so much better even my daughter was like, you sound like a grumbly bear. Before I was kind of talking like this, and I actually didn't do any talking because I couldn't talk. So when you're a podcaster, it's like, your worst nightmare, losing your voice.

    [MUSIC IN]

    You know, it's funny how most people, even those who work in the industry, like voiceover artists or broadcast media, they don't always think about their voice until they lose it, like I did. I remember one of my coworkers back in the radio days. She hosted a four hour Monday through Friday show, but she lost her voice because she was screaming and having fun at a concert the night before. Long haul voice usage, so talking to people is one thing, but when you're a podcaster, you're actually performing with your voice. That's a totally different thing. That's like presenting, or teaching, or voicing audiobooks, and, yeah, like I said, when we're podcasting, this is when we are being intentional with our voice. 

    Whether you are actually thinking about that on purpose or not, it isn't just about having a conversation. In the back of your mind, you want to make an impact with your podcast episode. So before you get to the, oh, my God, I've lost my voice like I did. 

    Let's talk about prevention. I know, my version of getting sick and losing my voice, that's harder to prevent. You know, you can't prevent the fact that my daughter brought home a cold and then she passed it on to me. That's just part of the September back to school blues. But what I'm talking about is maybe that concert that my coworker was screaming at or talking all night at a loud dinner party, that part, we can do more to nurture our voice. And just whenever we use our voice on a day to day process, we can nurture our voice at any point in time. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    I think more and more people these days are more aware of hydrating. So drinking water, you know, those Stanley tumblers that have been out on social media, huge water bottles that people are drinking out of, because they want to stay hydrated. But what podcasters might not realize is that you're just not hydrating your body. That also means you're hydrating your voice. But when you drink, the interesting thing that most people often think is that drinking water will immediately hydrate your vocal cords. But really, your vocal cords live in the same world as where you breathe air makes them work, not your digestive system. 

    So when you drink fluids, the water actually isn't coating or washing out your vocal cords. You actually need to hydrate, meaning drink well before you speak in order for that hydration to reach your vocal cords, because what we drink or eat, those fluids need to be transported through the body system in order to be absorbed by cells for it to work, and that could take 24 hours. If you're more of a science nerd, you can read more about it in an article called The Effects Of Hydration On Voice Acoustics from the American Speech Language Hearing association. I'll put that link in the show notes. But, yeah, when we're breathing, we're using our vocal cords, but when we hydrate, we need to drink well in advance. Stay hydrated is what that means. You gotta drink well in advance to make sure that your vocal cords are hydrated. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So the Internet myth of lemon and honey or gargling salt water won't actually fix your voice. Oh, the Internet. We love busting myths. Rest is also key, and I know you can't just not talk. You know, we still have to do our day to day work. But with some advanced planning, rest could help. 

    For example, you know, you're heading out to a loud restaurant for dinner one night. When you plan your podcast recordings, make sure you give your voice a break. So don't schedule any recordings the day after or even first thing the next morning. Give your voice time to get back to normal. You have to think of your voice like other muscles in your body. You just did a huge workout with it the night before. Talking loudly at that dinner party. So are you going to be doing a marathon the day after? Probably not. 

    So when we have the luxury of time and planning, think about what you've got planned around any big vocal events. And I know vocal events might be hard to grasp, like, okay, concerts, dinner parties, but what else? Sometimes you just never know when you need to speak loudly for long periods of time. And one of those things too is like a networking event. You know, I go to those, but I make sure because they're once a month or what have you. I'm not scheduling anything after that networking event, I'll make sure my voice has time to rest. It's like having a little vocal nap. Naps are lovely, so why not one for your voice? 

    Another vocal event could be like recording a podcast episode. Yeah, you might think, okay, I'm gonna record back to back, to back, to back, so I can just batch record everything and get things out of the way. But are you scheduling time in between to rest? Those vocal cords need a little bit of a rest before you take it out for another workout. So, make sure little voice snaps are scheduled in for you when you're even batch recording podcast episodes. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    And using your voice goes beyond the physical aspects we've been talking about. Your voice is really multi-layered, and there's always going to be a mental component as well. We worry about every word and how we sound, but imagine being able to strip away all of that. But I know it's easier said than done. When we use our voice all that muck from our past, the subconscious stuff. It all gets kinda in the way. When I use my voice too. I think about all the times my family told me not to say anything because it's quote unquote private. Which in my mind equals to. Should I share this one story on a podcast? Can I talk about this with a friend? When should I hold back? How much do I share? There's some mental gymnastics going on there. Or I might also be thinking about my experiences in grade six. My teacher giving me the nickname motormouth Mary all year. 

    So today I still wonder at times, am I talking too fast? I'm just going on and on and on and on. All that history with your voice comes back every time you do some vocal work, the little nuances creep up. But what I found is that, as you heard, I've made those little connections with my voice story. That grade six moment, my family moments. I've realized how past experiences affect my voice today.

    I can acknowledge it and be quicker at moving past it so that mental gymnastics doesn't take as long and realize things like, nope, not talking too fast. This is just my energy. It's my speed. It's just the way I'm passionate about expressing something. When you know your voice story, you get to rewrite that ending. So we're rewiring our brain at the same time we're doing this. And I've got a great step by step for figuring out your voice story. I talked about that in episode 55, How To Find Your Podcasting Voice. So make sure you listen to that one if you haven't yet. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    Recently, I also had a chat with Andrea Klunder of the Creative Impostor Podcast, all about voice. You can hear the whole conversation on her podcast link in the show notes, of course. But one of the main things I got to was that need to love our voice as much as we love other parts of ourselves, or as much as we love our loved ones in our life. When you're listening back to your episodes, and I recommend that you do want to check out episode 50, Stop Thinking About Yourself, or episode 54, The Process Of What's Working, What's Not Working, And What To Celebrate For Your Podcast. Those are some good ones. If you're not so great about listening back to your episodes anyway. 

    The point is, when you listen back to your episodes, I want you to listen like a friend. What would you say to your voice? Write down those notes as you listen, and write down those examples when it made you go, ooh, that's nice? We don't love our voice enough. So when you're writing down your notes, they're like little love notes to your voice, because your voice is doing a big job every single day, and it's really been underappreciated up until this point. So now that you've got that awareness, what are some little love notes that you're gonna leave for your voice? 

    And if you wanna learn more about how to use your voice, Andrea and I, along with Brienne Hennessy, will be on a panel all about voice, called your voice, using it, shaping it, and protecting it. I would love for you to join us. We'll be at the podcasting for business conference. It's happening November 13 to 15th. It is all online, so this conference is going to be great for you. It was created by Megan Dougherty of One Stone Creative. She was actually a guest on  this very podcast, episode 70, How To Use Research And Reporting To Guide Your Podcast. So make sure you listen to that one. If you haven't listened to Megan yet she is a fount of information. She is the one that's creating the conference. So make sure you head to the link to attend the conference and I'll see you there on my panel about using your voice. Of course, as always, as I've already said, link will be in the show notes.

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    Ooh, also, thank you for listening this far along. I'd also love to give you a free ticket to join us. I have a ticket for the conference for you, so if you would like to enter to win between now, so now, meaning when this episode is published on October the 14th until the end of the day on November 1st, if you want to win a ticket to the conference, all you need to do is leave me a voice note from my website because I want you to share your voice. Head to VisibleVoicePodcast.com, there's a purple send voicemail button to the right of your screen. 

    From there, I want you to leave a 90 second voice note from your device. One, state your name where you're calling from. Two, say and complete the following sentence stems I want you to say, the first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel dot, dot, dot fill in the blanks and then end with, today, what I love about my voice is dot, dot, dot. This is part of the voice story that I mentioned early on in the episode. So, this is part of the inner work, the mental work that we're doing with our voice, and I would love for you to share that with me, please. So yes, state your name, where you're calling from and then complete the following sentence stems. The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel and then end with, today what I love about my voice is. 

    So thank you so much in advance for sending in ah, your voice note, your little love note for yourself, and I'll do a random draw for a free ticket to the podcasting for business conference. So good luck. And again, thank you in advance. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So I hope this was a good little reminder or love note to you and your voice. Don't forget, stay hydrated, give your voice a nap when it needs it, and I'll see you at the Podcasting For Business Conference online in November. 

    On the next episode, we're going to talk more vocal health and warm ups with Nic Redmond. She shares some really great short exercises to love your voice before you settle in behind the mic. She also gives some really solid tips for when you need to podcast while you're sick. And yeah, it was more personal for me because when I recorded the episode, I was just recovering from losing my voice, and I was still a little scratchy. So you're not gonna want to miss this, it's cold and flu season. We all need these tips, and, uh, they're such great reminders for your voice. So join me next time with Nic Redmond. We're gonna talk vocal health and voice warm ups. We'll talk to you then.

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    14 October 2024, 9:00 am
  • 41 minutes 20 seconds
    Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive with Craig Constantine - EP 84

    How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we’re lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don’t like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication.

    A consummate conversationalist, Craig’s overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting.

    Let Craig’s passion inspire you to:

    • Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation

    • Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation

    • Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant

    • Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Engage with Craig:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    >

    MARY: Every podcast is unique, not only in its content, but also how you produce and create it. That workflow that I've talked about before, no one way is the right way or wrong way to create a podcast. And that's actually what I love about today's guest Craig Constantine. 

    He's all about his passion project, podcasts of having conversations. His goal of having a podcast will be different from yours, but what I really resonated with him is his desire to audit his own workflow. What's working for him before, during, and after the recording. 

    Craig Constantine, who's on a mission to create better conversations, to spread understanding and compassion, is a passionate podcaster. He does a lot of things that I know podcasters want to do, but never make the time to do it. So he's here to share how he's got multiple shows to his name with hundreds and hundreds of conversations published to share his podcasting journey. You can hear the passion in his voice for the work and the dialogue that he wants to have. So take a listen to this episode on how he analyzes his podcast to make things simpler for his world and how you can make similar reflections on yours. 

    This is episode number 84 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

    > 

    MARY: Craig, thank you so much for coming on the show. We've had a great little preamble so far, so I know this is going to be a good one.

    >

    CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that.

    >

    MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff.

    CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show.

    MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you?

    CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too. 

    So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way? 

    And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird.

    MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation?

    CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta. 

    But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something? 

    So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different.

    MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda.

    CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can. 

    So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing. 

    MARY: Yeah, 

    CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head. 

    So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people.

    MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either.

    CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared.

    MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,... 

    CRIAG: Oh yeah.

    MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that? 

    CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are.

    MARY: Yeah.

    CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone. 

    So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having. 

    So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool. 

    So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand.

    MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion.

    CRAIG: Yes.

    MARY: So how do you differentiate that?

    CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I’m like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally. 

    So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know. 

    But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course.

    MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree?

    CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic. 

    So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so. 

    MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect.

    CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in. 

    So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's. 

    Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X.

    MARY: Yes.

    CRAIG: Just a little harder.

    MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview.

    CRAIG: Whew, good.

    MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question?

    CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden?

    MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud.

    CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know.

    MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world.

    CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical.

    MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure. 

    Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this?

    CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows. 

    MARY: You have five active, oh geeze. 

    >

    CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them. 

    So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking. 

    And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me. 

    So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out.

    MARY: Yeah.

    CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course. 

    And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show. 

    And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting. 

    So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters.

    MARY: Yes.

    CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it.

    MARY: Yeah, how do you do it?

    CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share. 

    And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I’m, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that. 

    And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish.

    MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean?

    CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT.

    MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down.

    CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document. 

    So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it’s work. And it gets me going every time. 

    So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT. 

    I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for.

    MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days.

    CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio. 

    Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up. 

    So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation. 

    So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner. 

    And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation.

    There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough.

    MARY: Done. Yes.

    CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out.

    MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast?

    CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is. 

    Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show. 

    So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that. 

    Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope.

    >

    MARY: Yeah.

    CRAIG: That nobody listens.

    MARY: That's always the podcaster problem. 

    CRAIG: Yeah.

    MARY: Nobody's listening.

    CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems.

    MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting?

    CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing? 

    People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like. 

    I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this? 

    So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something. 

    If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control.

    MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge.

    >

    CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that’s very special.

    MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it.

    CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out?

    MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know.

    CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word. 

    So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane.

    MARY: Oh, yeah.

    CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this.

    >

    MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time.

    CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content.

    MARY: That is a lot!

    CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy.

    MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule?

    CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now. 

    It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details. 

    So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get.

    MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end.

    CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out. 

    Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work. 

    So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever. 

    I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation.

    MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah.

    CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >. 

    So that’s another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven’t got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That’s hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop. 

    Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome.

    MARY: That was awesome, Craig.

    CRAIG: But I did it on purpose. 

    MARY: I know.

    CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape.

    MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

    CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic. 

    So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking.

    MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know?

    CRAIG: Oh, yeah.

    MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation.

    >

    CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

    MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes. 

    So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you? 

    Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com. 

    On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time.

    >

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

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    30 September 2024, 9:00 am
  • 16 minutes 34 seconds
    Podcast Manners Matter: Setting Guest Expectations - EP 83

    How do you create clear and open communication with your podcast guest? Every podcast—and every episode, for that matter—has a lot of moving parts. As podcast hosts, we know that in order to stay organized, we need systems in place. But those systems should extend to more than your recording and editing tools, and how you publish your episode. You need systems in place for your guest interactions, too.

    An unfortunate experience shared by a fellow podcast host prompts Mary to explore podcast etiquette and guest/host interactions. She outlines how to approach this important relationship before, during, and after the interview to make sure you’re setting the clearest possible expectations.

    Consider how you could fine-tune your own podcast guest etiquette:

    • Ace the early interaction that will set you up for that “easy yes”
    • Keep your guest in the know as the interview begins
    • Make sure you’re both set up for success once the episode airs
    • Red flags to watch out for when you’re the guest!

    Links worth mentioning from the episode:

    Connect with Mary!

    Show Credits:

    Transcript with Audio Description:

    [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

    MARY: Having a podcast means you've got to have your systems in place. What do you do before you record an episode? How do you manage the actual recording? Then finally, what do you do after you record that episode and have that file? What's next? 

    There are so many things and variables involved when creating each episode that this also extends to being on a guest on podcasts as well. What are your routines to get on a show? And then when you're on that show, what are you doing? And then after the show, then what do you do with your guest appearance? There are a lot of similarities here when it comes to having your own show or being a guest on one. So when you do have your own show, how do you treat your show and your potential guests? That all matters. 

    Today, let's get into some podcast etiquette. What happens with your guests before, during, and after the interview? How you respond will set the success for your show and your guests. 

    This is episode number 83 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. 

    > 

    Hey, welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining me today. It's my first episode back from my little summer break. 

    [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

    And if you had a summer break as well, I hope you got to do at least one thing on your list that made you happy, because we all have, like, a list of things to do, right? Like, you're away from work and you got all these other things to do on the to do list. For me, it was honing in on my family value of adventure. So we hopped on a ferry and visited family on the mainland in Vancouver, stayed for a little staycation and did some camping and just got to explore our beautiful part of the world with our friends and family and meeting some clients, too, who came for their summer vacation. So it's been a really joyful, adventurous, and relaxing summer for me. And so I hope you had the same of, ticking off a couple things on your list for you as well. 

    And then, of course, now that I'm doing the back to school thing with my daughter, it’s time to also do the back to podcasting thing with you. And just before I went on my little break there, I was chatting with my previous guest, Christian Klepp. He was episode number 66. We were talking about the continuous improvement as a podcaster. So we're hooked up on LinkedIn, and he was asking me about my opinion, and he wanted to run something past me. It's one of those, quote, unquote, if you were in my shoes or my show, what would you do? 

    [MUSIC IN]

    So let's first just lay out the situation. Okay? He said that this guy reached out and asked him to be a guest on his podcast, which was really nice because it is focused on B2B marketing, which is what he does, business to business marketing. So Christian reciprocated by interviewing this guy on his podcast as well. 

    So here's the thing he says. One, he never told me when my interview was going live. He just published it and shared the link.

    Two, I was completely transparent with him and told him when I'd publish his interview.

    Three, I sent him an email with the links, no reply.

    Four, I added him on LinkedIn and tagged him when I published the episode, no reply. And he didn't share it. He even removed me as a connection.

    Five, I introduced two guests to him based on his request, no reply.

    A few weeks ago, he adds me back as a connection and asks me to refer leads to him. I said, nobody comes to mind, but I'll keep my eyes open.

    Today he sent me another email to follow up and ask if I have any leads for him. So back to that main question. If you were me, how would you respond?

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    I had a lot of feelings percolating. It just like, escalated, right? All through those numbers. We got five points there. Okay. My response was this, like that initial, oh my god, that's the worst. But two parts of this really come to mind. Initially, I was all, this guy is all, take, take, take. If he ever disconnects from you, I would disconnect from him as well and remove those connections and never reconnect again. Cut it, cut it all off, cold turkey. [LAUGHTER] 

    But then the more logical side of my brain was thinking of what were the parameters around being a guest? Did he mention beforehand if he was going to tell you when it would go live? I know not everybody does. No one's as prepared to know ahead of time. But did he mention that or what did he say he was going to do to prep you for this episode being published? 

    So as I kept saying to Christian, my initial response would be no response. I'm too busy to deal with this type of relationship that is clearly not mutually beneficial. Emails get lost, buried, and forgotten. So, no response. I mean, he had no response. I'm gonna have no response. It's my quick, petty little response to that. 

    However, Christian and I had a good back and forth about this because I think it's a lot to do with those expectations. Christian was very, as he said in point number two, completely transparent with him and told him when I'd publish his interview. But he was getting no replies on those other points that he was making. Right? There was, 3, sent him an email with links, no reply. Added him on LinkedIn and tagged him, no reply. Introduced two guests to him, no reply. And I think at that point, with all the no replies, those are the red flags they are signalling to me, this is not a reciprocal relationship. 

    And then the more and more we chatted, he came to his own conclusion on what he wanted to do. But I realized this really is about the care. You, as a host, care a lot about your show. So, like Christian, you are doing all, you know, all the things that you would like to do and show that you care about this person as your guest. And when the two expectations don't line up, because it doesn't seem like that guest had the same care, there will be the feelings. 

    So how do we make sure this doesn't happen again? How do we make sure that for you as a podcaster, for your show, that you've got a framework in place so that you are laying down all your expectations? And as I always say, you are the host of your show. You're driving that bus. So are you going to be driving this bus left and right, through the lanes, over the curves, past the yellow line, or are you following a direct route? And what is that route? You can share it with everybody. Let them know where you're going.

    [MUSIC IN]

    So let's lay down some of these tracks for this framework as a host. When contacting your guests, give them some of that framework right off the bat, they haven't even said yes to your show yet, but when you give them this framework, they're going to think, whoa, you're really professional. You know exactly what you want. You sound like you know what you're doing. I want to be on your show. That's also one of the first things that they'll see. And they haven't even talked or met with you yet, right? Sometimes this can just be a cold email to someone or a message. What do you expect from them at this point in time? What should they expect from you? You laid this all out now, so there's no disappointment. We'll know exactly what each person gets. 

    So, for me and this show, I let them know what days I have available for publishing or spots I'm hoping to fill. This way, they could start thinking about, oh, um, at that time of year, I might want to talk about this or that, and they can already start thinking about certain topics that they want to talk about. Then I let them know that they have to fill out my form first. After filling out the form and giving me all the information I need, that will then automatically send them to my calendar to pick a time to record the episode. All of that is in my initial email to them. 

    So it makes for an easy yes. You know, this might be an initial email to them, but you've already done your homework. Or you may have already chatted with them a little bit about, oh, yeah, I'd like to have you on my show. But this initial email is the how to. They want that blueprint. And if you want more details on this process, I talk about exactly this on episode 62. So go through the back catalog number 62 almost 20 episodes ago, How To Land Someone From Your Dream Guest List. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    Okay, so that's all pre-interview stuff. Now we're going to talk about during the interview. Like, you've got the person on the line, you may or may not have hit record yet, but you're going to set some expectations here, too. Remind them of when you plan on publishing this. You might not have an exact date, but you could always say, oh, this will be released sometime in November. So that way you could also be in the moment. If you know that you'll be publishing this months later than you recorded it, then you don't mention timely things, such as, I had a client who recorded something in the new year, and so she was talking about New Year's resolutions and all the stuff, yet it was being published in the summer when it is hot out. They're thinking about vacations. Maybe they're on vacation, and all of those things. 

    So you might want to talk about something that's more important to the publishing date. And your guest might also want to talk about something that's more relevant. Such as, maybe if you're publishing in the new year, they can then talk about all the new year's resolutions. Or you're publishing in the summer, and they want to talk about some fall retreats that they're hosting. This would give them permission to talk about those things. 

    And since we're on the topic of permission, this also gives them the permission to make mistakes, because we all do. Whether that is going to be something we're saying and we stumble and fumble on, or that our tech isn't working and everyone is feeling a little awkward, like, I'm so sorry this is happening. This normally doesn't happen or what have you. But that permission allows everyone, you and your guest, to be more human. And when you're more human, you care. And when you care. That interview is going to sound so much better. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    Okay, after the interview. Now, this is actually the important part and what Christian was actually alluding to in his question to me. And I wonder, now that I'm putting this episode together, was some of these steps implemented either on Christian's show, which it sounded like he did because he said, I sent him the link and da da da da da. But also on the other show that Christian was a guest on. So when you are a guest on another show, what is their framework like? And maybe if you're getting some red flags, then you don't want to be a guest on that show. 

    But, okay, let's go back to after the interview. What do you do when the episode is published? What are those expectations? And how, if you want to, how do you share that message? So I have a client. She shares this message with an email to the guest the day before. This email has all the details about the episode and all the shareable audiograms all linked or attached to the email as part of the promotional campaign. She also makes a suggestion that you don't have to, but you would be really honoured to if you did share the episode and also provided, uh, the graphics so the episode artwork and the links to the episode so that the guests can share it. 

    But also, what she's doing is making a reminder for this guest. It's doing two things, reminding them that their episode, that they probably recorded months ago, is being published tomorrow. It's giving them a heads up. The second thing is that it's reminding them what they talked about. When guests come on shows, they usually have more than one topic that they're talking about. And this email is a great reminder. 

    And for you as the host, it's easy to remind them what you talked about because you're just basically copying pasting parts of the show notes here. Usually I'll have bullet points of the major points of the episode, and that's what I will paste into the email. And I guess another thing of this reminder is that you're gonna let them know that you're gonna start tagging them on their social media accounts tomorrow. 

    So my client will give them this expectation, hey, this is what's coming up. And this gives your guest an expectation that it will happen tomorrow. They can be prepared for that. They can be excited for it and relive the conversation through your email and then be excited to share it. And this, of course, might sound like a lot of work as you, as a host, you're like, I have to send out this email with how many things? But it's all a format and templated. It's essentially the same email that goes out to each and every guest. You just need to update the relevant details for each guest and ta da, done. 

    But it doesn't sound like from Christian's original question, the host did not do that for him when he was a guest on that show. And that is where some of the expectations that he thought was supposed to happen wasn't happening. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    So yes, all podcasters are going to podcast their own way. I mean, this industry really still is the wild, wild west, although we'd like to think there's similar things. And sometimes people go their own way, and that's not necessarily a good or bad thing. In this circumstance, though, it's getting to know what your red flags are. Your value of integrity for your podcast, and the care you are receiving from that person to determine if their etiquette is what you want to follow. 

    So thanks for Christian for asking that question to me over on LinkedIn and allowing me to share it on this episode. And if you have a podcasting question that you want to share, feel free. Hit me up on LinkedIn like Christian did. And that's where I usually hang out. Or I would love it if you left a voicemail on my website, visiblevoicepodcast.com. 

    And hey, when you leave that feedback, let me know. How would you respond to Christian's scenario and what's your podcast etiquette that you follow? And if you need some support on some of those templates I'm talking about, I'd love to have a chat with you. We can set you up with your own system so that you can do the copy and pasting and send this out really easily so you can create your own template and your own workflow that aligns with your values and sort of some of this podcast, unofficial podcast etiquette that is in the industry about guesting on a show. 

    [MUSIC IN]

    And diving into the next episode. We're going to talk about the art of conversation and what intentional conversation means for your podcasting journey. We chat with a podcaster who's defying certain rules about editing and how his experience with multiple shows that he's created can support you on assessing your needs for your own show. We'll chat with Chris Constantine next time. We'll see you then. 

    [MUSIC ENDS]

    >

    MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

    >

    [MUSIC ENDS]

     

    16 September 2024, 9:00 am
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