In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had a heartfelt and enlightening discussion with Kevin Lavelle, co-founder and CEO of Harbor. Kevin shared his experiences and reflections on raising two healthy children—an 8-year-old son and a 6-year-old daughter—while managing the demands of a thriving career.

Kevin emphasized the importance of being present for his children despite the time constraints of being an entrepreneur. He has found fulfillment in volunteering as a soccer coach for his son and accompanying his daughter to gymnastics. His philosophy of being "appropriately selfish" underscored the necessity of self-care to be effective in caring for one's family.

The Fleeting Nature of Childhood

Both Kevin and our host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, resonate on how quickly time passes with young children. Recounting poignant moments like the birth of his son and profound moments in his entrepreneurial journey, Kevin appreciated the urgency of cherishing every moment with family. He shared a personal anecdote about working on a term sheet in the delivery room, highlighting the blend of work and personal life that many modern parents experience.

This understanding deepened after a personal loss—his wife's mother—which reinforced the irreplaceable value of family time. Dr. Lewis echoed this sentiment, encouraging fathers to prioritize building strong relationships with their children over work commitments.

Challenges of Modern Parenting

Kevin tackled the complex challenge of raising respectful and capable children in today's world. He discussed the necessity of discipline, the influence of external factors such as peers and media, and the struggle of maintaining different parenting standards than others. Kevin and his wife take pride in their children's respectful behavior in public, yet they find themselves constantly correcting behaviors influenced by their environments.

Dr. Lewis and Kevin also explored the concept of "deprogramming," or correcting behaviors developed when children are outside the home. This underscores the dynamic landscape parents must navigate to maintain their values.

Promoting Healthier Families Through Better Sleep

A significant portion of the podcast focused on Kevin's venture, Harbor, which aims to improve parental well-being through better sleep. Inspired by his own experience with sleep deprivation, Kevin developed a product integrating professional guidance and innovative technology. The system offers a reliable baby monitoring solution, avoiding common issues with existing products, and introduces a concept of a remote night nanny service. This service is designed to be affordable and leverages professionally trained nurses to help parents manage nighttime challenges, ensuring better sleep for all family members.

Fatherhood's Essential Bonds

Kevin concluded by sharing his views on fatherhood—emphasizing a connection, love, and support as the bedrock of raising well-rounded children. He credited his own parents, his wife, and his children as his inspiration, and he offered advice to fellow fathers: Enjoy spending time with your children and cherish the fleeting nature of childhood.

Parents today face numerous challenges, but as Kevin's journey illustrates, with mindfulness, appropriate self-care, and innovative solutions, the joys of parenting can indeed be balanced with professional success. For those seeking additional support, the podcast encourages engagement with resources like the Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters community.

For Fathers, By Fathers: A Beacon of Support

Dads with Daughters remains committed to helping fathers navigate the beautiful complexities of raising daughters to be strong, independent women. Tune in for more inspiring stories and practical advice from fathers like Kevin Lavelle.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being on this journey with you. You and I are walking on this path to help our daughters to be those amazing women that we want them to be as they get into their adult years, and it's a process. It's definitely a process that we walk through to be able to be that dad that we wanna be and to be engaged and to be present and to be there for our daughters as they get older. And you don't have to walk that alone. That's why this podcast exists. It's here to help you to walk alongside other fathers that are either going through the process right now, have gone through the process, or other individuals that have resources that can help you again to be that dad that you wanna be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are fathering in different ways. And today, we got another great guest. Kevin Lovell is with us today, and Kevin is the cofounder and CEO of Harbour. It is a company that we're gonna learn more about today. But I love their tagline, we create happier parents and healthier families one restful night at a time. And how many of you remember, especially those young first few years when you felt like a zombie? I'm just going to put it plainly, and you felt like you were not getting any sleep, and probably you weren't getting a lot of sleep. But we're going to talk about this venture that he has been on for the last few years and what he's doing. But first 1st and foremost, we're gonna learn about him as a dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here.

Kevin Lavelle [00:02:01]: Thank you. A great opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, Kevin, it's my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. And I know you've got 2 kids. We're gonna focus on your daughter today, but I know you've got a son as well. You got an 8 year old son and a 6 year old daughter. So you had your son first. Now I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Kevin Lavelle [00:02:26]: Really fun memory. My my wife and I, our son was a little over I don't know. He was maybe 16 months old when we found out we were going to have another child, and we both did that thing. And and I think we meant it. Then we said, you know, whether it's a boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. We're just gonna be so happy that, you know, have another. And to each their own, I wasn't into a big gender reveal party, but I did think it would be fun to learn together. And so we had her doctor email the results to someone on my team at Mizzen and Maine, and I asked him to go get flowers, you know, pink for a girl, blue for a boy, and put them in our garage so that when I came home, I was traveling, I could bring the flowers covered in a trash bag into the house and we could look at them together because my wife loves flowers.

Kevin Lavelle [00:03:14]: That was the way that we were gonna learn together. And right as I was about to pull into the garage, I just had this overwhelming thought, god, I hope it's a girl. And, you know, I didn't I hadn't said anything. And right as I went to pick the flowers up in our garage, they basically kind of fell open, and I saw it was pink. And I was just overcome with joy, and I had to pretend that I didn't know. But I walked in and I opened it up, and my my wife was, absolutely overjoyed as well. And at the time, my my first company was an apparel company, so my my colleague had also put a pink shirt in there, one of our pink shirts as a company. So that was a fun way to tie that together.

Kevin Lavelle [00:03:54]: And shortly after she learned it was a girl, she said, I really wanted it to be a girl. And I was like, I did too. And by the way, I found out in the garage. And so, a very fond memory, not just learning that it was going to be a girl and and, you know, knowing that we now had a son and a daughter, but, a very memorable time in our lives. And it was a very rough pregnancy for my wife. And I don't know how true this is or an old wives tale that, you know, when it's a girl, they they suck all the pretty and all the life out of you because they're they're bringing it into themselves. And we were joking because it was a much rougher pregnancy with my daughter than my son. So we we we kind of felt it might have been a girl.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:30]: Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of the fathers talk about the fact that they are that there is fear going into being a father to a daughter. Whether found or unfound, it's there. So as you think about the years that you've had with your daughter thus far and you think about your own experiences, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Kevin Lavelle [00:04:53]: The most direct fear as she gets older, women are more vulnerable in society and all of history than men. That's just the nature of humanity and the nature of life. And so, higher fear that she could have something terrible happen to her than to my son. Although, as parents in an ever crazier and changing world, certainly, the fear exists, for both of them. But my focus, and my wife and I have the same belief, is help our kids there's a phrase, prepare the child for the road and not the road for the child. And I see it so often, especially in some of the schools that we have been in. Whether it's parents or teachers or both, they want to make sure that everything is perfect for their child rather than, how do I make my child resilient and capable of addressing whatever it is that life will bring to them. And so, everything that we can do to make them more resilient and just prepared and understand the risks that exist in the world while not being afraid of the world.

Kevin Lavelle [00:05:52]: You could hide out real easily and miss out on a lot of the wonderful things that life has to offer. And and we want them to face the world with head held high and and know what they're capable of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now you're a busy guy. You're a CEO, entrepreneur. You have been involved with a couple of ventures and a couple of companies in your time as a father. And it not only takes time, effort, but it takes balance. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to balance all that you're doing in starting and creating a new company, but also in trying to be that engaged father that you wanna be.

Kevin Lavelle [00:06:30]: There are lots of people much more smarter and accomplished than me than that probably have lots of specific tips and tricks. But I'll say the thing that has resonated or or stuck with me the most is accepting that I will never get it all done. And I could work round the clock and miss out on life in front of me. We lost my wife's mother now about a decade ago. And that was very young to lose her. And just understanding that life is very short and very precious. And so don't miss out on don't miss out on what's in front of you. And the age old adage, the nights are long, especially when it comes to sleeplessness in those early years, but the years are short.

Kevin Lavelle [00:07:10]: And I had quite a few people say that to me when my kids were, you know, 6, 9 months old. And you're not sleeping. And it is a level of exhaustion. Even if your kids are doing well sleeping through the night, it's just so all consuming and difficult and everything is new and stressful. Sometimes, when people tell that to you in that time of life, you're like, thanks. That's super helpful. I'm barely making it in a given day. But just continuing to come back to how fortunate we are.

Kevin Lavelle [00:07:35]: We have 2 healthy kids. That is in and of itself a miracle. And then, prioritizing as much as I can. I've been volunteer soccer coach for my son, taking my daughter to her gymnastics classes, and just trying to soak up the time with them because it's moving very quickly. And there's never going to be enough hours in the day to do all the things that I want to do. But making sure that when I'm with them, try to be as as present as possible. I could talk about this for hours, but those would be the biggest things that that really stand out to me. And then, I think I'd also just add, with that said, I heard a Naval Ravikant years ago podcast with somebody was saying that he does a good job of, I think in his own words, he said being appropriately selfish.

Kevin Lavelle [00:08:18]: And it comes down to this analogy of put your own oxygen mask on first. If you're not sleeping and eating and taking care of your body and your mind, then you can't take care of your family. You can't be there for them. You can't be a leader. And so, I think some people end up losing sight of that and forget that they still need to have some fun. They still need to take care of themselves. They need to get sleep. Then they need to be able to sit down and read a book or chat with friends.

Kevin Lavelle [00:08:44]: And and you it is very easy to lose sight of that, especially in the days of of of young kids. And ultimately, looking at some of my friends whose kids are a bit older, and they're starting to adjust to the fact that they don't spend much time with their kids anymore even though they still live at home. And so that window of time is is very short.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:02]: It is very short. And as your kids get older, you look back and say, dang it. Because, hopefully, you have taken the time to be able to build those really strong relationships, spent the time, and not focus on work or not focus on the things that you think are important at the time to be able to provide for your family, but what you come to find. And I see that even though I've been a very engaged father throughout my entire kids' lives. But as you get into the teenage years and they start pulling away, and you're not able to have as many opportunities to be able to connect and engage on a regular basis, you treasure the moments that you do have to be able to create those opportunities and have those opportunities. And they look and feel a little bit different, But you definitely want to grab them, hold them, and keep doing those things with them when they give you that opening to do it. Now I asked you about if there were any things that you were afraid of and fear in that regard. But being a parent is not always easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]: We just talked about and we'll talk more about the fact of sleep and the importance of sleep. But it's not always easy to be a father to a son, a father to a daughter. What would you say has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Lavelle [00:10:21]: If I had to sum it up, I think overall, I would pick up 2 different angles to this. And I can hone in on it being daughter specific and also being a father specific. It's not specifically daughter related, but it is very much a central struggle to being a parent. And it's something that I see, I don't say this on a high horse, but it's something I see a lot of other parents neglect. And I can see it coming back to bite them, which is raising good, capable kids who are respectful and that you want to spend time with is there's a pretty significant amount of time that is frustrating and you have to be, you have to be the parent. You have to be the adult. You have to be the rule enforcer. You have to constantly give feedback and it's frustrating and it's challenging.

Kevin Lavelle [00:11:03]: But when you don't do that, each passing day, week, month, and year, it's harder to raise good, respectful kids that are capable and, you know, you want to spend time with. Jordan Peterson, I think it was in his 12 Rules For Life, talked about you don't let your kids do things that make you like them less because you love them more than anyone else in the world. And if you let their bad behavior go, their obnoxious behavior, even annoying tendencies, if you don't help them correct those, well, guess what the rest of the world's gonna do? They're not really gonna like them either. They're not gonna want to engage with them. They're not gonna want to be friends with them. They're not gonna wanna help them, mentor them, etcetera. And so I think about this a lot, especially when I have those frustrating conversations or interactions that I have to work very hard to help them grow and flourish. And that means I'm bearing a lot of the brunt of that so that they, in the rest of the world, have people like them and want to be around them.

Kevin Lavelle [00:12:01]: And one of the things that my wife and I are most proud of on an ongoing basis is when people are around our kids, they are genuinely surprised at how wonderful they are to be around. They're very respectful. We can go to very nice restaurants with them without an iPad. And they do great. And that I don't know how many times we went to a restaurant where it wasn't awesome before it started to be good. And now, it's great. And so, you know, I think with that, that is not necessarily daughter specific. I'll go with now daughter specific.

Kevin Lavelle [00:12:33]: And the other key piece here is you don't raise your kids in a vacuum. And our kids go to school with other kids whose parents are fine with different approaches to language and respect and electronics and vanity and spending. And there's a when our kids spend time with certain kids, they come home with very annoying or inappropriate kind of phrases or responses. And it's getting a little bit better because they know what, they tend to understand more of what's right and wrong and what is and isn't acceptable. But when they are in school all day or they spend time with certain kids, they come home with things that we have to then work to correct. And it's not a huge problem. But, you know, when you send your kids out into the world, you have to remember they're out in the world without you. And that's why it's so important to build those innate characteristics.

Kevin Lavelle [00:13:25]: And especially on the little girl front, some parents have no problem with makeup and music and things that are just not appropriate for my daughter's age. And then she's struggling with this back and forth of, well, I see my friends do it and their parents are okay with it. And you have to say, while being respectful, you can't really say, well, those are not good parents in our view. Because there's a way to say that that inspires better decision making. And there's a way to say that that could make them look down upon or feel differently about folks. That's that's not not helpful. People can parent hard, but they want to parent. My job is to take care of my kids.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]: Well, and the other thing that I think that all of us have to understand is that each of us come into parenting without a rule book, without a guide book. And depending on the model that you saw in your own experience as a child yourself, the other parents that you surround yourself with, you start to identify and create ways in which you parent based on those. And sometimes parents don't realize what they're doing or are not doing, and unless someone points it out to them as well. But I completely understand what you're saying because sometimes you do have to do that deprogramming with your kids when they get back into your home or if they've spent time even when they go to grandparents and they come home, and the rules are different there. And then they come back and are like, well, grandma and grandpa said it was okay, so why not here? And you have to deal with that as well. So I completely understand what you're saying in that regard. Now we've been talking and kinda hinting about the importance of sleep. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you are the CEO and cofounder of Harbor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: It is a organization company that is working to create happier parents and healthier families, as I said, one restful night at a time. And I remember those days with both my kids feeling like a zombie when you're trying to go to work, and you're coming home, and, you know, you're getting a few hours of sleep. And, you know, those things are very challenging, and those those days and nights can be long. And that being said, I wanted to ask you about Harbor because, like you said, you spent quite a few years at Mizzen and Main, which is a clothing company. And you pivoted after this to open your own organization and create your own company in that regard and beyond what you did at Mizzen and Main to something completely different. So talk to me about that origin story of Arbor. And what made you decide to move away from clothing and move toward something that we're talking about in regards to helping parents to get better sleep, to be able to stay connected with their children, and be able to create this new product?

Kevin Lavelle [00:16:17]: So when my son was born, it was a very memorable time in my life. Also, similar to that very visceral memory of finding out my second was gonna be a girl. We were in the throes of fundraising for Mizzen and Maine. We were assigned the term sheet with our private equity firm in the delivery room for my son. And I remember pieces of that very vividly. And one of them was, I'm not the person who's going to decide the car seat or the stroller. I was helpful with my wife there where she wanted me to. But I'm more of the tech person, and I did a lot of research.

Kevin Lavelle [00:16:49]: And there was a company called Nanit that had a lot of recognition and press about their very innovative baby monitor. It's a Wi Fi camera with an app on your phone. And I thought, oh, that's really neat. I like apps on my phone. That's convenient. But while someone was a couple, I don't know, weeks or months old, I can't remember the exact date that it happened. And he was in his own room. And I woke up one morning and the app on my phone, because you have to sleep next to your phone, which I don't like doing to begin with, but you have to sleep next to your phone so the app audio runs in the background.

Kevin Lavelle [00:17:18]: The app had just crashed. And look, apps crash. They're not a 100% reliable. And I panicked and ran across the house. And, of course, he was fine. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. But it was a very alarming realization that this thing that I'm supposed to be able to rely on, you I can't. And so we went out that day and bought an old school Motorola camera and an old school Motorola monitor that was direct local only communication.

Kevin Lavelle [00:17:46]: It does not use the Internet in any way, shape, or form. But we kept a Wi Fi camera. I got rid of the Nanit and ended up just using a Google Home device, a Nest camera, because my wife and I worked together at Mizzen and Maine. And when she came back to work, we wanted to be able to check-in on the nanny with a babysitter. You just you wanna be able to know. And not that I wanna be monitoring 20 fourseven, but technology is supposed to make our lives better. And there have been a lot of promises that have largely failed to deliver for parents. So this idea of why do I have 2 separate systems to be able to just know that I'm monitoring my kid and record and rewind and check out from outside the house? I talked to a lot of parents over the last 8 years and just sort of getting feedback and wondering what they were using.

Kevin Lavelle [00:18:32]: And I found out that 20 to 30 plus percent of my friends did the same thing that I did, was have multiple systems. And in an industry and in a time of life when parents want the best for their kids, baby registries are between $3 and probably $15,000 worth of products as a first time parent. Cribs and strollers and car seats and multiple strollers and formula and and pumps and on and on and on and on. The best that parents have to offer or the best that parents have accessible to them is hacking together multiple systems that don't communicate with each other and blah blah blah. So I wanted to solve this problem since my son was born. And so what we've built is a camera and a 10 inch monitor that connect directly to each other without Internet. And both devices also connect to the Internet. So you get the best of both worlds.

Kevin Lavelle [00:19:29]: It's a dedicated device that alerts you if you lose connection. And everything connects to the Internet when it's available. So we have an app. You can record. You can rewind. You get all of those benefits and features as well. I've got one right over here. I should have had it right next to me.

Kevin Lavelle [00:19:44]: But it is a 10 inch monitor. So you can actually watch up to 4 different streams on one screen. You can control the zoom and the volume of each independently. There's nothing like that that exists today. And I can tell you, however bad the experience was with a Wi Fi camera with 1 child with 2, it's it's almost impossible on a tiny little iPhone screen. And we can watch up to 4. And then we put privacy first. So our camera and our tablet are both built outside of China.

Kevin Lavelle [00:20:10]: They're both built with non Chinese silicon. The chips inside the device is basically the thing that powers it from a processor perspective. And then the chip in the camera is able to do all of the advanced analytics and kind of signal to noise sorting that makes our product really unique on the device locally. Meaning, it does not go through our cloud to process your information. And the the best way to think about that is like on a self driving car on a Tesla, they have cameras that process everything locally. Because if you had to send to the Internet, is that a red light or a green light? Obviously, that's not very safe from a decision making time frame. And then we also put a memory chip in the camera. So all of your memories are stored locally on the device itself.

Kevin Lavelle [00:20:52]: If you wanna use our app, obviously, if you're outside the house, you will access it, and that will be remote. We're not storing it. We're not processing it. Unlike every other Wi Fi camera that exists, you are paying them to store your footage on their cloud. And in many cases, third party clouds that may not have the same level of security that you would expect. So very unique device, very unique monitor. We've really positioned ourselves as something that does not exist today for parents and started shipping mass production units to customers in September of 2024. And it's going great so far.

Kevin Lavelle [00:21:24]: We've shipped thousands of devices in just a few months. And then the other thing I'll touch on very briefly for framing is that's exciting and and we think a game changer for parents. And it's been very well received. But we are using it as the foundation for what we have called a remote night nanny. So if you can afford it, an in home night nanny or night nurse is one of life's greatest blessings. It's also unaffordable for almost everybody. And a lot of people who can afford it don't want someone else in their house, or they heard a horror story and they don't feel comfortable with it. Or even if they can afford it, they can't really find someone that they would trust to come in and help take care of their child.

Kevin Lavelle [00:21:57]: And the main purpose of an in home night nanny is they will listen to your baby monitor in another room, and they will go in when it is necessary and appropriate to go in. So if your child starts to fuss or cry a little bit, they'll look at the monitor. Okay. Nothing's wrong. And they basically start a timer and they wait 5, 10, 15 minutes depending on age and stage. Because if you hear a child cry and immediately run-in, you delay their ability to learn how to sleep because sleep is a skill. Just like talking and walking, you have to kind of fumble through it and you and you find your way and you develop the skill of sleeping. There's a lot of really bad information out there on the Internet about sleep.

Kevin Lavelle [00:22:36]: And sleep experts, legitimate ones, know you have to help the child learn how to sleep. And so, the challenges in home night nannies, if you can find 1, are $300 to $700 a night depending on where you live in the country. And it's very hard to find them as well. So, what we're doing is because we have built the hardware, after you onboard into our system, you can hire our professionally trained night nurses remotely. You press a button on the monitor, sort of like arming an alarm system, and that turns over the controls of your monitor to our professionally trained night nurses. We turn the volume on your monitor down to 0 all night long and only wake you up when a professionally trained night nurse says it's time to go in. So if something is wrong, like something falls in the crib or the baby's arm gets out of the swaddle and gets stuck in the crib slot, we're gonna wake you up immediately. Otherwise, we're gonna start the timer and we're going to wait until it is time for you to go in.

Kevin Lavelle [00:23:33]: And what we have found is the 1st night, parents are adjusting to, okay, this is a little different and a little a little new. But the 2nd night, parents are telling us they've things like, I haven't slept this well since my 1st trimester. And that's because it's not just that I'm not hearing something. Because you may not go in all night long, but your child is going to make noises all night long. Kids make a lot of noise. And if you don't remember it, good for you. That's fortunate. But kids can fuss and cry off and on for hours.

Kevin Lavelle [00:24:03]: Now, they're still getting sleep in between, but you're not as a parent. But what we're finding is parents are telling us, especially moms, to have a professional be the one that is helping me know when to go in rather than that anxiety and that guilt and that shame that comes with being a parent and not knowing what to do, It allowed me to really actually get deep, restful sleep for the first time in a long time. And because we have built the hardware, we have a lot of fail safes built in, the system just turns itself back on if it loses connection, And we're hiring professionally trained nurses so that we can have 1 nurse work with multiple families at the same time and bring the cost down to about 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny. So that's Harbor. A lot more to talk about there, but that's a good good roundup of what we've built here. No.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: It sounds like an amazing product, and I have not used it, and I don't need it now. And my kids would be really weirded out if I was using it at this point in their lives. But that being said, when they were very young, this sounds like a game changer. Now one question that I had when you were talking about the technology and, you know, how you had your app and that you were trying to keep it on a phone and and that it was running and then lose power and you you know, all of that story that you told. With your system, are you running off of your Wi Fi in your home, or are you running off of the Wi Fi off your phones? Because if the power goes out, then, you know, how does that all work?

Kevin Lavelle [00:25:31]: Yeah. So a couple of points on the technical side. The camera and the monitor or multiple cameras are going to run off your home Wi Fi when it is strong and available. If you don't have Wi Fi, so as a point of comparison, if you have one of these Wi Fi baby monitor systems and you travel to a hotel, you can't use it because hotels will not let you tap your devices onto their Wi Fi. You can put your phone on it, but you can't run your devices on their networks from a security perspective. So the message boards online are full of parents who said, you know, just got to our hotel and realized I can't use my Nanette. I can't use my Owlette. And I had to run to Walmart to get a baby monitor because, you know, get adjoining rooms.

Kevin Lavelle [00:26:11]: You gotta be able to look in. And so the camera and the monitor, one camera and one monitor, creates its own Wi Fi signal to communicate directly with each other while not requiring a separate Wi Fi network. So it has direct local communication that doesn't require the Internet. But when you're at home and your your routers are appropriately configured and and everything is running, it will just run through your home home Wi Fi. And one of the benefits there is home Wi Fi tends to be stronger. You've got it across the entire house. And our that feed does not leave your home. So if it's running on your home WiFi, it does not leave your home.

Kevin Lavelle [00:26:50]: Again, we are not swearing or processing anything. If your router goes down, if your Internet goes down, then your camera will fail over to direct local communication. So when it's running through your home WiFi, it's saying, okay. I'm running through home WiFi. I've got good signal strength. All of that's measured. When it can't find that home WiFi or it's not working, then it says connect directly to the monitor. Now with a power outage, at that point in time, if you were running an app on your phone, the camera is going to fail because no baby monitor cameras come with batteries.

Kevin Lavelle [00:27:23]: I'll say none. Virtually none do because batteries are a severe fire risk, especially if it's running 247. And that's why, generally, you will not see batteries in cameras in homes. And so if there's a power outage, you wouldn't necessarily be notified if you're just using a WiFi camera. But our monitor would know, hey, I've lost connection with that camera because the cameras no longer has power. I'm going to alert the parents that there's no longer a connection. Now, that doesn't mean you can do anything about it because you don't have power in your house. But now you know, and you can choose to maybe open the doors so that you can still hear, maybe bring the crib into your room.

Kevin Lavelle [00:28:02]: That's then a parental decision on what happens next. But the important thing is we empower parents to know what's actually happening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:09]: And about the night nurses, tell me about how do you identify these individuals? What type of background do they have? How are they trained to be able to provide that kind of service for families?

Kevin Lavelle [00:28:18]: So we're recruiting actual nurses who have worked in pediatrics, whether in offices or hospitals. And then in some cases, they have in home night nursing experience where they have worked with families and homes. And in other cases, they just have pediatrics medical experience. And then we are training them from our professionally trained night nursing staff. So, our director of nursing has worked for years in hospitals. She was a pediatric oncology nurse. She worked as an in home care manager and as an in home night nurse. She's a Hmong herself.

Kevin Lavelle [00:28:49]: And so she is working with one of our advisors and our team on training those nurses that we're bringing in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:56]: And as you said, those in home nannies or nurses that you might have inside your home can be very expensive. What's the price point on not only your system, but having this type of monitoring with night nurses to be able to assist parents?

Kevin Lavelle [00:29:09]: To buy our camera and our monitor and all of our features, we do not require subscriptions or additional payments. You buy a camera and a monitor, you get everything forever. It's $599, which puts us as roughly price comparable to all the other leading systems on the market today because they require annual subscriptions. And then the remote night nanny experience, right now, is about $30 a night. You have to buy kind of packages of nights, and it works out to about $30 a night. And our long term vision is to get the cost down to $20 a night. Once we have enough people in the system and we can hire the staff and have the systems capable of working with many more families at the same time, we will continue to pass those cost savings on to our customers. And it's kind of cool.

Kevin Lavelle [00:29:51]: At $20 a night, you could do 3 months of the remote night nanny for the same cost of about 1 week of an in home night nanny. And so we like to say 95% of the benefit and 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:06]: Well, it's a great value for families and definitely gives families peace of mind in regard to being able to be if you are sleeping and you get that good sleep, you're going to be able to be more present and be able to be much more attuned to what your child needs versus trying to struggle through with the lack of sleep that many parents get, especially for the 1st 6 months, 8 months, year, or more, depending on your child, that sometimes you run into.

Kevin Lavelle [00:30:37]: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different studies and research, but very significant percentage of couples who get divorced say sleeplessness in the early years of childhood was a major contributing factor. The reality is a lack of sleep contributes to or exacerbates postpartum depression. It has very significant immune system impacts, durability, even to be a safe driver. When you are sleep deprived, whether you have a child or not, sleep deprived drivers can be even more dangerous than drunk drivers. And so, there's a lot from the adult side. And then on the child side, we make a big difference for parents. But on the other side, our monitor system is the kind of help parents and kids get more sleep.

Kevin Lavelle [00:31:14]: That's the fundamental nature of our system relative to everything else. The single best thing that you can do for your child is obviously make sure they have appropriate nutrition in those early years, in early months weeks years. The second best thing that you can do for them is make sure that they are getting the appropriate amount of sleep on a consistent basis. And that is really hard to do for most parents for a whole host of very obvious reasons. And so, when you think about a well rested child, certainly, we can imagine they are more pleasant to be around. But from a mental development perspective, from a dysregulation perspective, from an immune system perspective, from a physical health development perspective, all of those, you have to have the right nutrition and you have to have the right sleep. And if you are not supporting your child's ability to sleep through the night, you are very much hampering their health and well-being and development. And I'll say one final note on sleep.

Kevin Lavelle [00:32:11]: There are some very bad influencers and sleep gurus that will tell you the minute your child is crying, you need to be in there holding their hands and they will feel abandoned. Science has disproven this again and again and again. And similar to this idea of put your own oxygen mask on first, when moms don't get sleep, the propensity for postpartum depression absolutely skyrockets for all the obvious reasons. And when a mom has postpartum depression, it has a very significant impact on her ability to feed her child, nurture her child, love her child. It's a very difficult thing to go through. Obviously, there's no way that I could go through it, but it is a very understandable position that moms find themselves in. And so, these influencers and sleep gurus who, you know, propagate very bad sleep ideas, they're really harming parents' ability to get the right information and support their their families. And so, our focus is how do we help parents who want help? I'm never going to tell a parent, you're doing it wrong.

Kevin Lavelle [00:33:15]: Every parent is responsible for raising their own child and we all have our own way. However, most parents are struggling and need some help. And we are here to provide very clear, unambiguous, science backed information. And we do that for free. At our website, harbor.co, we have a ton of free resources. And our mission is happier parents and healthier families. And so, we have a lot of free resources on our website. If you don't want to buy our baby monitor for any number of reasons, that's fine.

Kevin Lavelle [00:33:41]: There's still a lot of great resources that you can find. And we have opportunities for parents to sign up for text based sleep coaching. If they just want to text a nurse and get some help, it's a very affordable $30 a month. You don't have to sign up for big hour long sessions or sign up for our full system, although we offer those as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:58]: Well, Kevin, I wanna say thank you for sharing all of that. If people wanna find out more about your system, the night nanny services, or anything else, where should they go?

Kevin Lavelle [00:34:10]: Harbor.co. And you can find us on on the socials at harbor sleep. And we have so many great resources there. We have very robust sleep guides for infants and also toddlers. We have also formed a harbor council of pediatric sleep doctors, postpartum counselors, pediatricians, OB GYNs that have written many articles for us. And our goal is if you have a question as a parent, we don't have all the answers yet, but we have pushed a lot of great content for free online to be a great resource for parents as they need it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:45]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Yes. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Kevin Lavelle [00:34:55]: Joy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:55]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Lavelle [00:35:01]: I don't think I could point to, like, we were at a theme park or we were at a restaurant. To me, it's those moments where my daughter would look at me, come home from work, come home from traveling, I'm tucking her in at night. And I just see that look in her eye that says, you are my safety, you are my home. The level of connection and love there, that success is a dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:24]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Kevin Lavelle [00:35:28]: I believe they would say fun, strong, great. And those are the things that that I hope that they would say at their ages with their vocabulary. Some of the kind of underlying things would be that I'm supportive, that we have a lot of fun together. We laugh, chase them around the house, and that they still really want to spend time with me. They've got friends, but generally, they'd rather spend time with my wife and I than anyone else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]: Now let's go 10 years down the road. What do you want them to say then?

Kevin Lavelle [00:35:57]: As I think about this phase of life, we no longer have little kids. They're not toddlers, and they go to school full time. And my wife and I have talked about, like, we did it. We got out of the the infant and toddler and very young kid phase as best as we possibly could have. We have wonderful kids. They're respectful. They're resilient. They like to learn.

Kevin Lavelle [00:36:22]: They like to have fun. They're great kids. Now, we need to prepare them to be teenagers. And so, what would I hope to feel like at that point in time? That whatever it is that our kids want to do, whether they want to go to college, whether they want to pursue a sport, whatever it is. That they are ready to go face the world and they are as prepared as they possibly could be. As I said, prepare the child for the road. And that they truly understand, as best as a, you know, 18 year old can, what it means to be happy. That they will not chase the superficial.

Kevin Lavelle [00:36:54]: That they will chase the core, the meaningful, the spiritual in whatever way that is for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:00]: Now, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kevin Lavelle [00:37:03]: Certainly, I feel like I won the parent lottery. My parents raised me right. And I felt my whole life the appropriate balance of support and safety, but also go forth and conquer. My wife, she is an absolutely incredible mother, and I think a better mother than I am father. And, you know, as cliche as it is, my kids. When they show me that they want to spend time with me and that they want more of me and that they're truly grateful for the life that we have as best as young kids can, that, okay, keep going. I want to do more of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:34]: Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that people can think about and look at ways in which they can incorporate some of those pieces into their own experience as a father. If you are talking to a father, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every father out there?

Kevin Lavelle [00:37:50]: So for the dads that have kids older than me, I'm not sure how much advice I could give. But for those coming up behind me with with younger kids, I think it's a big part of what we talked about. Raise kids that you want to be around and that they love you. Like, that they are the kids that other people want to spend time with and that they want to spend time with you. That that kind of full circle. And if you do those two things, then you're doing all the other things right. And that's a good kind of metric or or baseline to seek. And as cliche as it is, it goes by really fast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:27]: It definitely does. Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And as Kevin said, if you wanna find out more about him or about his company, go to harbor.co to find out more information about this amazing new technology and resource for you as you are working to be the best dad that you wanna be. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today.

Kevin Lavelle [00:38:51]: Thanks for the opportunity and and for the inspiring work you do for dads.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:55]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:54]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Unlocking Emotional Strength Through Attunement and Support

In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we had the privilege of hosting Dr. Tovah Klein, an esteemed professor at Barnard and author of the insightful book Raising Resilience: How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. Our conversation centered on the vital role fathers play in nurturing resilience and emotional strength in their daughters during challenging times. By delving into the essence of resilience, Dr. Klein offers invaluable advice on how fathers can become pillars of support and emotional stability for their children.

The Essence of Resilience

Understanding Resilience

Dr. Klein defines resilience as the ability to adapt, adjust, and be flexible in the face of life's challenges. It is a critical aspect of a child's development, enabling them to navigate adversity with the emotional backing of their parents or caregivers. Rather than shielding children from every hardship, it's crucial for fathers to allow their daughters to face small adversities, helping them build coping skills and inner strength.

Attunement and Emotional Stability

Attuning to Emotional Needs

Dr. Klein emphasizes the importance of fathers being emotionally attuned to their children. Emotional attunement involves understanding and responding appropriately to a child's emotional cues and needs. For fathers, this means managing their personal stress and emotional states to maintain stability at home. Children require emotional availability and unconditional love to build confidence and mental health, and fathers play a pivotal role in providing this foundation.

Shifting Focus and Modeling Healthy Behaviors

From Work Stress to Home Serenity

A key recommendation from Dr. Klein is the necessity for fathers to shift their focus away from work-related stress before engaging with their children. Modeling healthy behaviors, such as limiting screen time and prioritizing family interactions, sets an example for children to follow. Fathers should strive to be present, listen, and engage in meaningful conversations during everyday moments like car rides or bedtime, turning these instances into opportunities for connection and support.

Embracing Vulnerability

Teaching Through Vulnerability

Dr. Klein underscores the importance of fathers displaying vulnerability. By expressing a range of emotions and acknowledging their struggles, fathers teach their daughters that it's normal to experience and cope with various feelings. This modeling helps children feel validated and understood, fostering emotional intelligence and resilience.

Practical Strategies for Coping

Handling Academic and Social Pressures

When addressing academic struggles or peer conflicts, Dr. Klein advises fathers to listen and validate their children's feelings rather than solve every issue for them. Encouraging daughters to learn from their experiences and take pride in their achievements, even during adversity, builds their problem-solving skills and resilience. Conflict with peers is natural and can lead to stronger friendships as children learn to navigate and resolve disputes on their own.

Empowering Fathers, Empowering Daughters

As fathers, the role you play in your daughters' lives is immensely significant. By being emotionally attuned, modeling healthy behaviors, and embracing vulnerability, you empower your daughters to develop resilience and emotional strength. These foundational skills enable them to face life's uncertainties with confidence and adaptability. For more resources on enhancing your parenting journey, visit Dr. Klein's website tovahklein.com, and consider joining support communities like The Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters Facebook group. Together, let's raise a generation of strong, resilient young women.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' wives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you, and walk on this path that you're on. And I call it a path. It's a journey. We're all on it together as we're raising our daughters to be that those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And it's not always going to be easy. There's gonna be bumps in the road.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And but in the end, each and every one of us is working to try to help our children to be able to be self reliant. And one of the topics we're gonna talk about today, resilient as they get older. And every week I love being able to bring you different guests that can help you to do just that. Sometimes we have dads on. Sometimes we have others that have amazing resources that can help you to do just that. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Tovah Klein is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: And Tovah is a professor at Barnard, as well as we're going as well as a author of a new book called raising resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. I'm really excited to have her on and to introduce her to you. Tovah, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:01:40]: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well. Because as you heard, this podcast is all about raising strong, independent women. And part of that is being able to give our kids the keys to, well, I'm gonna say the castle in regards to helping them to be resilient in the things that they're going to come up against. And there are definitely going to be things that they're going to come up against. And there's some of those are gonna be positive. Some may be negative and some may be somewhere in between. And I'm really excited to be able to delve a little bit deeper into this book that you've put out into the world. But I think I wanna step back in time just a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]: And first I wanna have you define resiliency because you know, this book is called raising resilience and every person that hears that word resilience may have a different thought in their mind of what that means. And then I'd love to hear your origin story. I wanna hear why this topic and why you wanted to put all the time, passion, effort into putting this out into the world?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:02:37]: So when I think of resilience, what I really think about is the whole person, the whole child. And resilience is not like a trait or a dose or something that you say, you know, I'm 1 or I'm a 6. It's actually a part of who we raise our children to be. It's about adaptability, adjustment, flexibility. You can think of it as opening up their thinking, but it's being able to move with whatever life gives them. And as you just said, life's gonna give them good and not so good. And so, really, when we think about preparing our children for life, we love them, We do all kinds of kind of things for them, but really what we want is for them to be able to handle the hardest parts of life, and that's what we call resilience. It's a process to help them develop it, but also that adjustment, adaptability, flexibility allows them to face hurdles and shift, face hurdles and shift, knowing that they're not alone in the world.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:03:38]: They're not doing this themselves, but with originally a parent or whoever is the main caregiver, and then in life, other people who can be there for them. So that's really how I think about resilience is this dynamic piece of self that gets developed over time. Actually, I've been in the field for almost 3 decades now working first with young children and parents, and my research was always centered around young children and that really important influence of parents on them. And then as careers change, I started working with, you know, older children and parents, and that just broadened my thinking. And one day came to this sudden realization that really what parents were doing is helping children prepare for uncertainty. Like, every single day is uncertain. And I have kind of 2, I would say, areas that I'm passionate about and I've spent my life in. One is kind of everyday, normal development challenges, stressful moments.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:04:41]: And then the other piece, which I always saw as related, was working with families in traumatic situations, so either individual trauma from, you know, abuse or hurts, or fleeing a fire or a flood, but also collective trauma. So children and families after 911, I've done work now in COVID, which when I started conceptualizing the book, I had not yet, but, you know, sort of large scale traumatic events. And when I put those 2 together, I realized that the piece that happens in trauma, whether that's a severe crisis and you've just fled a hurricane and those roads washed out, or you're getting through a normal day with 3 children of different ages and you're trying to get out the door, you're always dealing with uncertainty, and it's very destabilizing. And then that what I got to is, like, oh, then what we're doing every single day in our relationship with our child, whether we know it or not, is helping them prepare for life, which is gonna unfortunately have bad things happen in it, and we want them to be able to handle. We want them to be able to people to turn to. So the book started out really about uncertainty, wrote a proposal, kind of put it aside, you know, life gets in the way, work gets in the way. Then when COVID hit, it really became very clear to me that uncertainty was here to stay, or I thought it was here to stay, and I felt like I needed to get back to this book. But when I started writing, and my contract, you know, got a contract with HarperCollins, the editors kept saying to me, you know, everything you write about is about resilience.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:13]: And I pushed back saying, you know, that's really a buzzword. And I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in writing a book about how do we raise decent human in writing a book about how do we raise decent human beings? What does that mean for parents?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:19]: What does that mean for children? And what I meant by that was children who grow up with a strong voice and ability to take care of themselves and have confidence and, equally, an ability to look to others and be kind and compassionate and aware of their community. And they said, yes, but everything you're writing about is resilience. And so I said, okay. I'm gonna take it out of that buzzword, and I'm gonna really unpack what does resilience mean, and what does that parent relationship or caregiver relationship mean in terms of raising that child because so much of this is about us as parents, and that had been the life work I've been doing is really studying and working with everyday parents to understand what we bring to this as parents, because that then drives how we see our children, how we either do or don't accept them for who they are, and children have to be accepted for who they are. And so what's the work we we must do on ourselves to understand ourselves so that we become that buffer between the world and what the world gives us and children so that there's stress, but it's not overwhelming stress for children. And that's really how this book came to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: Now one of the things in the book that you talk about and that you emphasize is the role of parental attunement in building resilience. How would you say that fathers in particular can attune to their children's emotional needs during challenging times? And what specific strategies can they use to be more emotionally available?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:07:58]: Yeah. It's such an important question because, you know, as you know, as a father and a and a podcaster with fathers listening, for so long, the field of psychology didn't even know that fathers existed, or they were sort of like, oh, yeah. But we know now from experience and equally from the research that a loving parent matters and fathers matter. And so this idea of attunement, particularly when times are stressful, really means starting with self. And I think the the challenge for some dads, I think not always, but is that boys are raised into becoming men who aren't really taught or told, oh, you're supposed to feel feelings. Feelings are okay. This this is human. And so doing the work to say, oh, how am I doing? How am I feeling? Can I ground myself as a dad so that I can turn to my child and figure out what my child needs? Because often as parents, when we're upset, we go for control.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:09:00]: Right? If I'm feeling really rattled, if there's a lot of uncertainty, every parent, male, female, non binary, like, every parent who feels unsteady kind of we kind of go for, what can I control? And when you take a step back as a dad and you say, okay. I'm the one who's stressed here. How can I get a little steadier so I can turn to my child and then say, what does this child need for me to protect them right now? Not protect them by keeping everything out, but by saying, right now, we're not sure what's happening. People are getting sick and we're not sure why, but what I know is that by staying home, I'm gonna keep you safe, and we're gonna still have our meals together, and I'm gonna still put you to bed. It reassures a child that even when there's bad things going on, this parent is close to help them, and that's what children need. We always think of it in young children. Children need it across ages, for us to say I'm here for you even though this is scary or stressful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:59]: So some of what you were just talking about, those emotional barriers or the walls that sometimes some men put up, it's not always easy for some men to break those down. And to be, as we've talked about on the show before, is vulnerable with those around them. And from what you just said, really, to me, what I'm hearing is the importance of being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability with your kids. Because by showing that vulnerability, it equates to allowing and providing your kids a glimpse of resiliency in many different ways.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:10:36]: Yeah. You'd summarized that very well, actually, which is we have to be vulnerable in order to say, oh, what am I feeling? And, you know, I read something recently that said being vulnerable is the opposite of cool, you know, being cool. Because being cool is kinda putting on, like, armor of some kind. Like, you know, I got this. You know, I'm a cool person. Being vulnerable says, I'm gonna show you and myself all of me. And all of me is not always parts that we're proud of or that we feel good about, but they're part of us. So right now, you're a father and something's going on in your life or in the world, you have to say, look, I'm a little scared, you know, to yourself or to a partner or to a friend.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:18]: I'm a little scared, but I know I have to take care of these children. So I'm gonna figure out what that's about so I can turn to my child and say, yeah. This is unknown, and we're gonna figure it out together. And it's that vulnerability that allows us to be full people. What it shows to the child is it's okay to have this range of emotions, of, you know, reactions, and that that's life. Life is not about covering up how you're feeling. Life is not about pretending. Oh, no.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:49]: No. No. I'm not upset. It's just the opposite. It's saying, you know, I am upset. And even if I can't do what I wanna do, I know that daddy is gonna love me even though I'm upset right now. And so when fathers model that, children go, oh, it's okay to fall down, to fail, to feel really dumb. Whatever it is, it has to be modeled for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now also in the book, you talk a lot about how adversity can actually make children more resilient. Can you share some examples of how fathers can help their children to reframe difficult situations? And it could be something like it could be peer conflict, it could be academic struggles, it could be other aspects that they're going to run into.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:12:36]: So I think, you know, one of the biggies on the academic side is, you know, your child comes home, your daughter comes home from pick a grade and says, like, I'm just stupid. I can't do math. This is very stereotypical and yet happens all the time for girls, for adolescents and younger girls. I'm stupid. I can't do this. You know, and as a dad, you might think, oh, maybe maybe I shouldn't push her to take that harder math that she wanted to take. You know, maybe I should just say to her, oh, honey, you know, you don't have to take algebra, advanced, or whatever it is. Instead, you can say, like, yeah, that is hard, and learning is a hard process, and be there with them.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:15]: So some of it is listening. You know, we tend to want to problem solve. I know, there's all kinds of jokes about, you know, men and dads wanting to problem solve, but I always say, well, moms do that, too, you know, but, you know, that's sort of the stereotype of, of males. And what we don't do as parents well enough is listen. So it may be listening to your daughter really cry, scream, tear the paper up if they still have paper tests, and then say, yeah, this is there's no question this is hard. Maybe you recall a story from your own. Oh, yeah. I remember when I got to quadratic equations, and, woah, I thought I'm the dumbest person in the world, but I wasn't.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:54]: And it's holding them through that, allowing them to have all of those emotions, and then some sense of tomorrow might be better is what I call it. Right? So let's see how it goes tomorrow. Do you wanna talk to the teacher? Tomorrow, you're in the moment. It's like, no. You know? They just wanna vent, and you let them vent. But the next day when they go back to school, they may actually come back and say, hey. I got my test back, and I didn't do well, but I didn't do the worst. Or I got problems right.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:21]: I was sure I got wrong. You go, oh, really? What you learned from that? Oh, okay. And you have to have this, like, almost like a humorous distance. Right? You don't wanna say I told you so or I knew it, but you can say, yeah. You know? That's gotta feel great. So what are you thinking next time? Or if you wanna think through studying differently, let me know. And then the child builds on that. Oh, I actually didn't do as poorly on that test as I thought.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:48]: The dad wasn't there going, oh, it's only because you were tired. Like, we love to make excuses for our children. We either blame them, like I told you to go to bed earlier, or we make excuses. Oh, remember you weren't feeling so well. And all of that works against a child saying, I faced something. It was hard. I don't love my score in that test, but I'm actually proud of the things I did get right, and I'm gonna study a little differently next time. That's strength.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:15:14]: Fighting with friends, children do it all the time. And in fact, the data we have with younger children is that they fight more with the people they're closest to. So they don't really fight so much over, you know, building a block tower or how to organize the playground game if it's somebody they're not friends with because it's not worth their energy. But they can get into pretty heated fights with people that they're friends with or that they play with a lot, and then they come back together. Why? Because they want to. The motivation is I might have thrown you out and said I never wanna see you again or talk to you again yesterday, but today, you're my friend again. And it's even stronger because we've been through this conflict, and we've we've resolved it. And so I think as a father to know that it's not about the problem solving, but to to listen, to say, hey.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:09]: If you want my help, I'm here. But to recognize that you have to wait for the child to come in and say, I really do wanna play with her tomorrow. Oh, okay. Well, you know, do you want wanna think about what helped you last time with that friend and and to talk it through. And I see it all the time now with with social media and teenagers. You know, when I hear my kids or my college students, I teach at a women's college, so I have all these incredible young women. You know, that term ghosting, which was new to me in my generation probably shows, like, what? But with ghosting, it's almost like there's a brick wall. And so sometimes I say to a teenager, like, is there a way to take a step back and maybe try another day to reach that friend? Because it sounds like that really was a friend.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:55]: So it doesn't have to be the message is this doesn't have to be forever. And I think dads have to give that message when it's appropriate. Right? You're really heated now, but I'm wondering if in some time and initially, the the child goes, no way, but then they may come back to you and say, yeah, I was thinking about what you said.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: You know, one of the things I was thinking about, and it kinda goes into some of the things you wrote too, was the fact that more and more you hear today about the mental health concerns in young people and the rising concerns about mental health and the struggles that young people are having. What would you say to fathers about how they can contribute to create a supportive environment at home that fosters both emotional intelligence and emotional component. You know, I say it in my book, these 5 pillars, but the first is building trust, right? That's what every father is doing with their child. They're building trust in this relationship. Like, even when things go awry between us, I'm here for you. You know, putting your child to bed at night or going into check on your teenager really can be about, boy, we had some rough spots today, and you know, I'm sorry, and I still love you. All of those disconnections that get repaired, reconnecting are really core for our children and particularly, I'm gonna say, for our girls, because they need to know conflict is part of life. That's where you get this emotional attunement, which is, yeah, we were angry before, you were really mad at me, and now we're back together, and we're good. This is part of it. You're not, like, overlooking it.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:18:40]: But I think the other piece at home is that we tend to put a lot of pressure on our children, particularly firstborns. Not always, but particularly firstborns. Right? They're our first ones. They make us a parent. You know what I'm saying? Before that first one, there was no such thing as I'm a parent. Now I'm a daddy. You might have subsequent children, but the first ones are kind of our reflection. They go out in the world, we feel great when they're doing well, and we like smile.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:06]: And then when they're not doing well, we're like, we feel terrible, but also, we tend to blame them. Don't do it that way. So I think for dads to really think about, when am I too hard on my child or my children, and when am I putting too much pressure on them? Because we live in a very competitive world, you know, certainly academically and just there's all this messaging about mental health, which we should be concerned about. But there's equally messaging about, there's only one way to get to the top, or if you're not at the top, you won't succeed. And it's a total lie. It's just a lie. And I feel like if every per parent, every dad could say to their child, there's lots of ways to be okay in the world. You know, some people are really great at sports.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:50]: Some are really great at math. Some just enjoy it. Like, we've taken the joy out of learning or doing. So I think at home to really think about, can I bring the pressure down? Can I find moments of joy together? Like, you're much better off having a dance party, if that's what your children like to do, or have a backwards dinner. This is I grew up with backwards dinners occasionally, and they were just such a joy, or can we take a different path to get to where we're going today, and who wants to map it out? And even if you get lost on the way, that's funny. That's really funny, you know. So where can you have those moments of shared joy, and then I'm gonna get back to listening. We don't listen to children.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:29]: They're not busy people. Dads are busy. Maybe you have work or maybe home is work. You've got a couple of kids or you've got one who's got some special needs right now and you're trying to figure those out and you're taking them to different therapists. Whatever it is, we're busy. And what gets lost is what I call the space in between, which is like getting there. You know, maybe that's in the car or it's, you know, you walk to school or to a doctor's appointment or something. In those moments, there's a lot of time to connect and listen to your child.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:59]: And so putting more of that in or thinking, like, do I really wanna rush through bedtime with my 8 year old? Or can I slow it down and so they go to bed 10 minutes later? Anything at home that brings down the pressure and gets parents to exhale and the dads to say, just wanna connect with you. I don't really care what you eat for dinner. I'm gonna serve it. I'm not gonna take it personally if you don't need it, and I'm gonna listen to you today. So the lighter we are with children, the better. And it also opens them up to talk more. And we say, you know, we ask them questions, they shut down. They're like, I'm not answering you, daddy.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:21:32]: But when we sit down at dinner and say something funny that happened I I'm just thinking of my husband used to sit down and he'd go like, I'm gonna tell you the funniest thing that happened today. And it would just be this, like, beat fact of some kind. Then the children would start talking because nobody asked anything of them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:47]: Earlier, you talked about fathers trying to protect their kids. And I think that the word protect means different things for different men. But I guess one thing that I think that many men feel is that they need to protect their kids from hardships, from that they need to protect them from getting hurt. How can fathers reconcile that instinct with some of the approaches that you're talking about, about allowing kids to face adversity as a means of building resilience?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:22:20]: So much of this is about work on themselves. Right? Of course, we wanna protect our children. There's a part of any dad in particular because what's the function of a daddy to love a child and keep them safe? And to say, you're not gonna always be with them. You're not gonna always be there to protect them. So what can I do to help them deal with the little hurts and the smaller hurdles and the smaller adversities now is to back off and let the child deal with them? So, I'll give an example. You know, that term bully gets used a lot. Now, there are some children who really are victims to being bullied, but every child potentially is going to have meanness in their life from other children and from themselves, by the way. I think we do a disservice when we tell children that's mean, that's mean, that's mean because it scares the child.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:23:09]: Well, what if I don't like my friend today? And then am I a horrible person for telling them I don't like them? No. They're not horrible people. They may be standing up for themselves. So when we step back, and if a dad steps back and says, what's worrying me so much about my child getting hurt? Because every dad brings their full self to being a dad. And so it's really about saying, what's the really, what is the harm that I'm worried about? And usually, it's I remember how bad that was being left out, or I was terrible at athletics, which is takes in a whole other life for men than it does for women, right, because boys are supposed to be athletic. Right? So if you were that child who was left out or you were that kind of outsider peer who didn't really feel like you belonged, we then get more worried for our children, and we jump very quickly. So I think being aware of self, and that's what I call in my book, The You Factor, those are I have all these reflective questions there for dads, for moms, for anybody taking care of children. What is it that I bring? Because when we don't give children this opportunity to handle the smaller hurts, even when the child thinks they're big hurts you know, my friend wouldn't play with me today.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:24:22]: He starts young and goes all the way through adolescence and then becomes part of social media. But to say, yeah, that's really crummy. Sometimes that happens. And to have some empathic, but genuinely empathic, but also, I'm gonna sit by you, but I'm not gonna take this away. I'm not gonna march up to the school and speak to the teacher unless I hear it as a pattern and I'm really getting concerned. Or as I often say to to a parent, you know, to a dad, just check-in with the school and see what the school says, if it's a school that, you know, you're comfortable with or the counselor, you know, the the middle school or a high school counselor. But when we don't let children deal with these smaller stressors, hurts, you know, not doing as well as they wanted, not getting the teacher they wanted, but then they might actually find that teacher is not so bad. It actually strengthens children to say, hey.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:13]: I got through that. I figured that out, or I didn't like that teacher because she yelled more than I liked, but, actually, she was a really great teacher, and I learned to deal with the fact that she yelled a lot. That's where strength comes from, that children see people are complicated. And I think as dads, the role is to help them see, yeah, people are complicated. Maybe your friend had a bad day today. Doesn't mean she should've been like that with you, but maybe she had a bad day. Do you wanna see if tomorrow's better? Gives them a world view of, you could have a bad day, and I don't want people vilifying you, and other people also are sometimes hurtful. That doesn't mean they're hurtful all the time, and that strengthens children.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:53]: The other thing it does is it helps them use voice. If you never face adversity, you never have to say, hey. I don't agree with that, or you can't do that to me. And I actually think that this huge part of resilience, which is confidence and the ability to stand up for yourself, comes from learning to do it, and it starts off in smaller ways. I well, now I said I didn't wanna play basketball today, and then I basketball today, and then I finally walked away. I just said I'm not gonna play. It's a smaller way to use voice because when people are doing things to you that you don't like, we wanna be sure that our children, the daughters say, absolutely not. You can't do that to me, and not feel like I'm being a mean person.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:26:31]: We do give them double messages, particularly to girls. Be nice. Be nice. Now stand up for yourself. And I see girls getting confused with that. And it's like, well, actually, you can do both. You can be a kind, decent person, and that's not in opposition to saying no, or I don't like that, or can we talk about this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]: So what I'm hearing you say is that there really are a lot of tensions, a lot of things that can impact a child in many different ways, whether it be familial tensions, whether it could be tensions from outside the home, whether that that are impacting the child directly, or even world events that may be causing strife, and are impacting your child, whether you like it or not, as as you're thinking about that, or how can fathers take a proactive role in addressing those external those external stressors while still being able to maintain some sense of stability? Some some sense of some sense of stability at home?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:27:36]: Yeah. I mean, that's a big question, obviously. You know, what are those stressors? But I'll start with sort of the innermost or the most intimate, which is your personal stressors. And here's your first level of uncertainty. Like, we change. You know, dads change. You might be calm at some days and a little more frantic or a lot more frantic others. So part of that is being truly in tune with self as best you can and not being hard on yourself when you're not.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:06]: So, oh, I'm stressed. Why am I stressed? And then what can I change? Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. But I find that more often than not, a dad could change something. Yeah. You know what? I keep saying that I can't bring the work stress down, but I'm gonna have to, and I'm gonna find a way, or I am gonna help ask for help. If there's a group of people who probably don't ask for help enough, it's parents, and then dads on top of that. Right? They don't say, hey.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:33]: Can I ask my neighbor to take my child to the bus stop or pick my child up today or, you know, I'm gonna be late for my child's band concert? Could you let her know I'm still coming? Right? So any way to turn to others for help can help. But then there's the wider world, and that's a lot of self work. I mean, there's a lot going on in the world that is scary. There's no question. And with news being 247 in in our faces, I think it's up to us as the parents. So to the dads to say, okay. I'm a news junkie. I've gotta take some of these notifications off my phone.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:11]: I've gotta come up with a way that when I walk in the door and I've got children now to connect to, I've gotta find a place to put my phone. And by the way, that's modeling for when your children have their own phones. It's very hard to say to children, when we walk in, we put our phones here if the dad doesn't do it, because they just call they'll call you out right away. You don't do that. So it's becoming aware of what's stressing you, what's scaring you, and how can you shift in dealing with it. It's a very intentional process. How do I get my feet planted? How do I exhale? 1, I'm just thinking of a dad I worked with for years, and and the first time he called me, he said, you know, I manage this huge group of people. He's in construction, this huge group of people, and I tell them what to do.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:56]: And I'm, you know, in the car driving home telling, you know, putting out fires or whatever. And then I get home and no one listens to me, and I said, can you put the phone down, like, a mile away so that the last part of your drive, you're shifting focus? And then when you get to the door of your house, you exhale and say, I'm going in now, to 2 children who won't listen to me. So you're literally intentionally exhaling, switching modes, and getting some humor because that actually that calm or calmer it doesn't read perfect calm is felt by the children, and they feel they feel that dad walking in the door. They feel that dad who's stressed at the dinner table, and so it's really a very intentional process. And again, I think it's something that men in in particular are not raised with. Like, you are gonna be the emotional sustenance for your children, and you are. And so to take that in and say, wow, what a privilege, what a great thing, and wow, That means I have to be aware of myself because the more emotionally attuned a dad is, particularly for those daughters, the more they feel loved and respected. And in their worst moments, they really need to feel that.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:10]: Like, I really messed up. They wanna know that this is unconditional love. I still love you. Yeah. That was a mess up. We're in this together. I'm not gonna leave leave you or abandon you because you had a, you know, rotten day or set of events, And that's what bolsters mental health too. I'm loved even when I'm my worst self for the children.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:30]: Well, Tovah, there's a ton to unpack here, and I really appreciate you coming and talking about all of this. And I know that, this book can definitely help so many fathers and mothers and parents in general to better connect with their kids, but also help their kids in a lot of ways. If people wanna find out more about the book itself, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:56]: Yeah. Well, the easiest place is to go to my website, Tovahklein.com. That's Tovahklein.com. And the book is sold wherever books are sold. So you can get online at your local book store. And if you go to my website, you've bought the book, you just put in your receipt, whatever receipt it is, and there's a free download for something that I call the UFACTOR journal. And that's all the reflective questions from the book and a place to either write out answers or just have the questions there to reflect on. And I will say I got an email this week from a couple who wrote to me and said that a mom and a dad couple, were doing the reflective questions together and then coming together and discussing them, and it's been good for our marriage.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:32:42]: So I thought, oh, that's really great. Because reflecting on self makes you a stronger person, which makes you a better dad. No question. And shedding vulnerability, because sometimes reflecting on yourself does not feel so great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]: So true. Well, I truly want to say thank you. Thank you for writing this and helping parents to connect with their kids in this better way, but also for sharing this with us today for being here and for challenging us to think about resilience in a different way as well. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Tovah Klein [00:33:14]: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:15]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. Dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Reflections on Cherishing Childhood Moments

In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, guest Vincent Micelli and his daughters Matea and Luciana, delved into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood. This episode not only offered heartfelt reflections but also provided listeners with actionable advice on parenting and savoring the fleeting moments of childhood.

The Fleeting Nature of Childhood

Vincent Micelli poignantly reflected on the transient nature of childhood, emphasizing the profound importance of savoring each moment with your children. He discussed how rapidly these formative years fly by and stressed the significance of being present for your child's "firsts" – first steps, first words, and first days of school. For Vincent, these cherished moments form the core of fatherhood, creating a lifetime of memories that contribute to a deep bond between parent and child.

Understanding Individuality

Matea Micelli highlighted the critical role of recognizing and nurturing a child's unique personality and interests. Tailoring parenting approaches to suit each child's needs fosters a more profound connection and understanding. Matea's advocacy for individualized parenting rather than generalizing roles resonated strongly with the podcast's underlying message of active, engaged fatherhood.

Building Lasting Memories Through Small Moments

Luciana Micelli emphasized the importance of small, everyday moments and their role in building enduring memories. She shared how simple activities like playing games or indulging in familial bonding became the foundations of their strong relationships. These seemingly mundane experiences not only enriched.

The Last Triceracorn: A Family Project Reaches the World

The series, titled The Last Triceracorn Book 1 and Book 2, seamlessly integrates elements from the Micelli family's life, blending fantasy with real-life experiences and adventures. Characters like Zuko, the magical bear, and Esta Colo, inspired by Matea's childhood fascination with shadows, create a magical narrative imbued with personal significance.

After more than a decade away from writing these bedtime stories, Vincent and his daughters brought their world to life in a printed form. "It was a way to capture the magic of our family's daily life," he noted. The self-publishing experience, though originally a Plan B, turned into a remarkable family project and bonding opportunity.

Dads with Daughters doesn't just offer advice; it provides a community where fathers can share their stories and learn from each other. Vincent Micelli's journey with his daughters underscores the podcast's essential message—every moment counts, and with the right support, any father can leave a lasting legacy.

The tale of The Last Triceracorn is more than a series of books; it's a testament to the power of family, storytelling, and unwavering support. Vincent Micelli's story is an inspiring example for fathers everywhere, proving that with effort and love, you can turn dreams into reality and moments into lasting memories.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Prioritizing Presence Over Presents

As we approach the holiday season, the hustle and bustle of gift-giving can often overshadow what truly matters—being present. Just a reminder to cherish moments with our children, whether that's through family traditions, snowy escapades, or heartfelt conversations. These memories are the true treasures that shape our daughters' lives.

Taking a Meaningful Break

We will be taking a short hiatus for the podcast and I encourage you to immerse yourselvef fully in the season's magic. This is definitely not the end of the podcast, but a chance to recharge and return with renewed energy and insights in the new year.

Resources for Reflection and Growth

To continue your growth as a dad even during the break, I suggest youo explore the Fatherhood Insider resource. This platform offers an extensive course library, interactive forums, and actionable roadmaps tailored for fathers navigating the complexities of parenthood.

Join the Community

Don't forget to connect with fellow dads by joining the Dads with Daughters Facebook community. It's a space to share experiences, seek advice, and find inspiration from other fathers who are equally committed to raising empowered daughters. Check the podcast notes for a direct link.

Embrace the Joy of Fatherhood

This holiday season, let's focus on the laughter and love that fill our homes. Appreciate the simple moments and remember that being a dad is a gift that keeps on giving. Happy holidays from the Dads with Daughters family to yours.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Hey, Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Dads with Daughters, where we bring you stories, tips, and inspiration for raising strong, independent women and helping you to be the best dads that you can be along the way. I just wanted to take a moment to connect with you as we approach the holiday season. It's such a special time of year. And if you're like me, it's also a time to reflect on what really matters, family, friends, and those precious moments we get to spend together. This season, I'm making it a priority to be present with my loved ones, and I want to encourage you to do the same. Whether it's watching holiday movies with your daughters, building a snowman, or just sitting down for a quiet conversation. These are the memories our kids will carry with them forever.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: To give myself and all of us a chance to really soak in the magic of the season, Dads with Daughters will be taking a short break over the next few weeks. Don't worry, we'll be back in the new year for more amazing guests, stories and insights to empower you in your fatherhood journey. Until then, I want to wish you and your family a truly joyful holiday season. May it be filled with laughter, love, and those simple moments that remind us why being a dad is the greatest gift of all. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Your support, your stories and your dedication to being present with your daughters inspire me every single day. Take care, be safe, and from all of us here at Dads with Daughters, happy holidays. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcomed Katie Koestner, an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation, who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent, autonomy, and resilience. Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation.

Understanding Consent and Autonomy

Katie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy. Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted; it can be revoked at any moment. Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape, highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent. This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries.

Healing from Trauma: A Collective Journey

Healing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support. Katie reflects on her own experiences, noting that regaining power and control over one's life is a long-term commitment. It's essential for parents, especially fathers, to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency. Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively, emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes.

Mentorship and Community Involvement

Community involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women. Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity. Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support, which are critical for personal empowerment.

Fostering Equal and Respectful Relationships

To raise daughters who thrive in healthy, respectful relationships, fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be "taken care of." Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships. It's crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives, reflecting these values in everyday interactions. Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration, mutual respect, and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes.

Practical Tools for Empowerment

Katie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters. She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents, energy, and intellect, rather than appearance. Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently. Katie's conversation with Dr. Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter's self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently.

Take Back the Night and Advocacy

Katie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation, which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors. She encourages community involvement in various forms, such as bike races, walks, and vigils, to promote solidarity and resilience. Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters, fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence.

In conclusion, the episode with Katie Koestner on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered, resilient daughters. Through understanding consent, supporting the healing process, fostering respectful relationships, and active community involvement, fathers can profoundly impact their daughters' lives, guiding them toward independence and confidence.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And, you know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and work with you as you're walking through this journey that you're on to be the best dad that you want to be, and working with your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be as well. That's why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down, talk, and to be able to learn and grow from each other, but also from the people that come on to our show. And it is really important that we're open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in, internalize it, and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey. And today, we've got another great guest with us. Katie Kessler is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:22]: And Katie is a activist on sexual assault. She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation. She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation. She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships, but also to be safe in their lives as they get older. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we're moving forward in our own parenting journey. Katie, thanks so much for being here today.

Katie Koestner [00:02:07]: Absolutely. Chris, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to share your story because it's not an easy story. And definitely, it's not I'm sure it's not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you've become in sexual assault. And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story, but only you can tell that story in your way. Can you tell tell me a little bit more? Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault?

Katie Koestner [00:02:43]: Absolutely. I am delighted to do so. So I think for all the dads out there, importantly, I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom. I grew up outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in middle school, and I had a younger sister. I was pretty darn ambitious in every way, and, loved, I would say, everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT. I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school. I was adventurous in every sort of the word. I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry.

Katie Koestner [00:03:34]: And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience, and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages, wanted to be a brain surgeon, played a great game of soccer, incredible, potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly, you know, went out and hung out with him. And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest, most expensive French restaurant in town. And any of you who don't know my story, I'm not gonna share all of it here because it's on TED Talks, and I've only lectured at 5,000 schools, and I'm sure there's clips here and there. I've been on open Good Morning, American, CNN, NBC News, lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC, at the United Nations, at the Pentagon, just a few places along the way. But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy. He paid for a very expensive dinner, and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married. I wasn't drunk at dinner nor that night. And I simply told this guy no.

Katie Koestner [00:04:39]: And for historic purposes, I'm sure I am older than many of the dads, who are listening. I might be younger than a few, but I was 18, and this was 1990. And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18. So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now, when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent, whether this, perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad. But, unfortunately, back then, my dad said I shouldn't have had the boy to my room and it wouldn't have happened. And while I think he probably had mixed emotions, and I don't wanna oversimplify, I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative, which means in high school, if a boy came to get me, he would probably fingerprint the guy's the front doorknob. He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door. He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up.

Katie Koestner [00:05:59]: He was easily intimidating to most guys. So before I go on, I I would say that my dad's never heard me speak in all my life, which is hard, and it's one of my motivations for coming on your show, Chris, because I have two main themes that I would get across, and then we can delve into the details. But I'm gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me. My father told me what to do in regard to boys. He was very protective, and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school. Maybe that's because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times, But I will also say to all the dads, protecting your daughter does not serve her. She's gonna have to do it herself at some point. And if not in high school, then when? So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own, you are gonna have a much stronger, resilient, confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen.

Katie Koestner [00:07:11]: You want her to navigate the hard situation, to come home that night or next morning at breakfast, and to say, dad, I did it all by myself. Sensed this one comment he made. I was around his friends who were making fun of women, and I knew better that this was not what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. Do you want her to say that when what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. You want her to say that when she's 14, when she's 16, and then you'll know when she goes off into the world, she's gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to. But I would send her out on every date saying, you've got this. You deserve respect. It's not about your appearance.

Katie Koestner [00:07:58]: It's about your amazing talent, your energy, your grace, and your brilliance. If you compliment her just on her appearance, you're gonna teach a frail daughter. I don't care how pretty she is, but you've got to compliment her on something other than that. So I start with, dads, don't protect your daughters. Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves. And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times. Be mindful of what you watch, what screens you're on, how you do or don't comment on women in movies, women in television, women in the media, women in politics, women in your work workforce. What do you say about women that's the same or different from men? And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms, the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect.

Katie Koestner [00:08:57]: And then lastly, even if you're separated from the birth mother of your daughter, even if she is the worst person you've ever met, God forbid, always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they're wrongfully treating you, even if they're a train wreck of a human, it's really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong. So sorry that was a mouthful, Chris, but, like, I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be. And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own. I have 16 year old twins. They're not girls. They're boys. And so I I'm on the flip side of your your equation. I'm a mom of boys, not a dad of a daughter, but I think we could talk about that later on is, like, how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates, if they if they actually like boys, who knows? What does that look like? Because I'm raising my sons.

Katie Koestner [00:10:02]: I think they're both into girls, maybe not quite so much yet, but I I think that's the track they're on. I'm not too judgy. People are people, but I definitely want them to be somebody's best date and best memory even if they're not in men. I want them to be good, humble, respectful young men, and that's what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they're into men into boys. So and don't look me up if your daughter wants a date. Like, my boys are not once, like, ready for, like, full time studying and the other one's too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet. So don't look me up for dates for your daughter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: I love what you shared right there. And I think and I have to say, I'm sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways. And you talked about the fact that for you, one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself, to be able to navigate situations by herself. I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself? And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters?

Katie Koestner [00:11:29]: Yeah. Fantastic question, Chris. And this is called, I would say, one of those conversations of courage. And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation. And, I mean, I'm gonna be honest. A lot of people aren't comfortable with their own sexualities, their own relationships, and and men and women both. And I'll footnote it with this. If you're a dad and wants to have what I'm about to describe with your daughter, And you're like, oh, crap.

Katie Koestner [00:11:55]: I totally can't do that. I don't have that vocabulary. I couldn't come up with that sentence structure. This makes me feel awkward. I I could look I'd be, like, so nervous. Like, that's totally okay. Not everybody has to be you know, not everyone's a brain surgeon. Not everyone's a psychologist.

Katie Koestner [00:12:10]: Not everyone's into like, you everybody has different skill sets. What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say, if I don't think I can say this, I should at least tell my daughter. There's a few things I'm really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast. Push play, like, right here. Like, oh, I've listened to this woman, Katie, once, and she was trying to say it. I I can't do it the same way, but pretend it's my voice and I'm your dad. And, like, seriously, I don't I don't care. You it takes a team of, like, 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid, and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try.

Katie Koestner [00:12:54]: I intend to do this. I tried to do this. I might not be great at it. People will see your intent and that you tried. So here's kind of what I would say. You said, how could my dad have done it? And it's very simple. You'd you say, like, she's really interested in a guy or somebody, a date, a prospect. She's going out to a party.

Katie Koestner [00:13:11]: She's going to her first homecoming. She's going to the think of any number of potential social situations. The best thing you can say is, darling, sweetie, whatever you say. Jenny, Susie, you know, Aloysius, whatever her name is. You say, I know tonight's really important. I don't know how many of these kind of social things you've done, but what's really important to me is that you know you are that good. You know you deserve respect. You know what your morals, your values are.

Katie Koestner [00:13:40]: You know what you want to to have happen tonight. Keep that in mind throughout the whole time. You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive, respected. You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow's gonna be a great day. And if someone treats you at all with disrespect, you know that you don't have to take it. You don't have to stay in that environment. There's never an okay reason where someone should say anything that's degrading. No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and you can navigate a way out.

Katie Koestner [00:14:12]: If you want to, we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight. If you think you're all set, I'm here a phone call away, a text away if you need me. That's all. You just just remind her she's worth it. Put her eye on the prize, which is, like, at the end of the night, she wants to come home safe, respected, and tomorrow is gonna be a great day. And that's it. You don't have to go into the nitty gritty. You don't have to say, like, what if he tries to like, girls might feel awkward about that.

Katie Koestner [00:14:40]: That could be a different class. Like, if somebody tried to touch you, how are you gonna if she wants to go there. But if you're just on square one, that's all you have to say. It's like, you've got this. Not like go, oh, you look so pretty, sweetie. You don't need don't say her dress is great, her skirt's cute, her hair looks great. That's fine, But, really, more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day. Like, whatever the event is, focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected.

Katie Koestner [00:15:12]: Not like I mean, do logistics. How's she gonna get home? Who's driving? What happens? You could do some logistics. But if you just constantly say you deserve respect, you're amazing, you're talented, how do you want this night to end? Just focus on the the finish line all the time. I mean, what do athletes do? What it what's anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed. And succeed is, like, be safe and not be assaulted and have fun.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: Now one of the things you talked about in your story, you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college, kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways. And then you talked about the importance of really as you're parenting and as you're working, not in in our situation here, in my situation, working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship, whether it be with a man, with a woman, whatever it might be. I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you've spoken to on your podcast, Dear Katie, survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places. What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships.

Katie Koestner [00:16:41]: A healthy relationship, you're gonna hear a lot of working together, collaboration. It's not me, me, me, me. The partner or guy who's all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging, he's actually frail. Like, frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play. And anyone who simply talks about themselves, their achievements, it's fine to be a high achiever. That's great. It's fine to be talented and smart, but it's really important to find a partner who's also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented, also brilliant, also smart, and wants to, like, do things collaboratively, not for. You know, old school men are like, I'll do this for you.

Katie Koestner [00:17:30]: I'll take care of you. That language is dead. Nobody should be taken care of anymore. We're not in the dark ages. So I think the woman today needs to dad to say, you've got this on your own, and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator, not a take care of her because no one's gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you're being purchased, essentially. Being taken care of means you have less power, less equality, less confidence. No one needs to be taken care of. I think that this is not to say, and I wanna nuance this, you can have 2 totally different lanes.

Katie Koestner [00:18:08]: And I'll even go so far as to say it's fine if one is a full time stay at home parent, and all they want to be is a, maybe, full time mom. I wanna have 5 kids. I wanna bake cookies. I wanna clean the house. I wanna be the PTA. I wanna do all I wanna volunteer. That's all fine as long as it's a pure choice. So, I mean, the gender roles, who cares? But the idea is, is there respect and valuation that's equitable between the partners? And that's a lot that's thinking way ahead.

Katie Koestner [00:18:40]: But at the root of a relationship, when you start out, you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do? How does he or they see what I do? And if she's being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her, that's gonna only cripple her long term safety and success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: I appreciate that as well because I think you're right. I mean, I know in my own situation with my own daughters, I don't want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned. I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships. And

Katie Koestner [00:19:15]: Yeah. I think what I'd like to say, Chris, is it's gloriously amazing to be the power couple. Seriously, who wouldn't want that? You see you see a few that are still, like, kept wise and, you know, people kind of pity them now. Nobody's like, oh, what a glorious, fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll, hence the movie. But I think it's an age of glorious and we went through some individual like, you might go back. We're so old, Chris. Like, the eighties, you know, we had all the, like, me, me, me's. Then we had you know, the decades are interesting when we look back at them, but I think we're we're hopefully going into an age of this amazing it's the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful.

Katie Koestner [00:20:08]: And I do think, you know, partnerships and relationships can be that good. It's really there's no such thing as a renaissance person anymore. Like, it's impossible. We have micro slices of everything in the world. So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated, kind, amazing, committed people who say, like, things are gonna get hard. That's I actually, that brings me to a really good point. Fights are good. Disagreements because you know why? The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like, oh my god.

Katie Koestner [00:20:39]: He made me so mad. You that's good. That's like, okay. Well, how did how did you resolve it? Because if you can't work together and not that's the tell. That's like the next level tell. If you have to think about the first date tells, like, where he makes some random joke or he can't pay look you in the eye if he's checking his phone every second. If he's asking you who your follow these are warning signs. Is he gonna say, why are you following him? What do you see? Like, jealousy is a really bad one.

Katie Koestner [00:21:08]: Telling, like, why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends. That's a big red flag. Like, if a guy goes out with you and I mean, hello. It's it's 2024. Like, if you can't have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade, and I was, like, the only girl. So I only hung out with boys, and I was not dating the entire chess club. Let me just tell you. No.

Katie Koestner [00:21:34]: It was not like that. I was just like, these are the cool, smart guys. Like, I know. And luckily, back then, I had male friends, but I think you've gotta have a male partner who's good. You can talk to a guy and not be jealous. Like, even if he's cuter than you. Even if he's better at soccer than you. Like, who cares? Like, a secure guy is what you want.

Katie Koestner [00:21:56]: He's not constantly jealous because he's ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays. That I would say that's another one. I'm thinking small things. I don't care about, like, send you flowers and open the door. Who cares? Sometimes people get hung up on, like, oh my god. I can't see the guy who holds the door. I'm like, give it up. Like, he's just trying to be nice.

Katie Koestner [00:22:16]: Hold the door for him. If he sends you flowers, send him flowers. I think you break all the rules. And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can't get flowers, what's wrong with you? Again, it's 2024. I mean, maybe you don't wanna paint your nails blue as a guy, but that's fine. But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes, there's going to be a problem down the road. And I think building in that, like, wow, creativity is helpful because later in life, the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age, Chris, you bet they're gonna get really dry and boring if they don't have a creative open mind. You wanna see all of those awesome traits.

Katie Koestner [00:22:56]: I guess I last thing is do pay attention. I hate to say this, but many rapists, we didn't talk about this, many rapists themselves were also victimized. So do pay attention. No. It's a little bit let's say a few stats. Like, 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime. About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same. Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators.

Katie Koestner [00:23:22]: And the 1 in 4 women, a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you've had it happen once, there's such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman. Many women turn that against themselves, their shame and blame, and many men turn it outward as anger. So a young man's own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find. I mean, you don't wanna, like, quiz him on the first date and give him an interview, but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother, how do they treat their mother? If they have a father, how do they treat their father? How do they do they fight constantly? Is there a lot of tension? I hate to say it. It's not what they what do your parents look like? Because then I'll know how you look when you look old. Okay. That's fine. If the girl's like, I wanna see your dad.

Katie Koestner [00:24:10]: Is he bald to know if he'll be bald? No offense taken. But, like, I think that's so not important. I mean, it is more important to see how they interact, though, with their siblings and with their parents. That part's really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]: You know, those numbers are really staggering. And, you know, when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma, I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat, how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say, I've experienced this trauma?

Katie Koestner [00:24:46]: Okay. Two best sentences ever. Ready? 1 is well, 3. 1st is, I'm so glad you trusted me enough to tell me. 2nd is, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And thirdly is, what can I do to help you right now? That's it. And then everything else you're gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone's gonna be different. The situation might be urgent.

Katie Koestner [00:25:08]: It might be immediate danger. It might be and I'll just nutshell it this way. There's 3 things to think about all the time. First one and I'll do them in order of expiration date. If it's recent, medical attention is paramount. Medical attention also means collecting evidence. You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected. It's free.

Katie Koestner [00:25:29]: It's done at usually a hospital rape crisis center. It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years. There's no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney. But if you don't get the evidence, it can't be used later. And that's important because what many of the dads thinking about right now, it may not make sense. 84% of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows. Trust, likes, not a stranger off the street. So if you get your thinking evidence collected, well, we already know who it is.

Katie Koestner [00:25:57]: Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in, whether she was asleep, passed out, if she was up against a wall. Like, all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent. So medical, medical, medical. And then, of course, pregnancy, STIs, all potential and have them looked at immediately. And, obviously, we've got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies, including through rape across the country. So you'll have to think about what state you're in and what your okay. So that's first. And second after medical is reporting options.

Katie Koestner [00:26:39]: If it's within 8 years, most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution. If a girl is a minor when this happens, it might even be longer. But mindfully, let's nuance this a little bit. Let's say she's 14 and her boyfriend's 17. That could be statutory rape in most states, even if it's her boyfriend. So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend, that technically could be rape in most every state in the country. I'm not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him, if you find out they had sex, but I'm just letting you know. If indeed it was an adult, let's say it was her 30 year old soccer coach, that's definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor, and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer.

Katie Koestner [00:27:25]: It can be entirely a whole lifetime. So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute. Luckily, luckily, Take Back the Night, the foundation has started. The, the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot. It's over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors. But over 20 years ago, I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation. But we, about 4 years ago, also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline. So that is so important.

Katie Koestner [00:28:02]: It's 1567 shatter for any dad listening. That's free. It's confidential, and it puts you through to an attorney who's steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options. I just put that out there in case someone's all of a sudden interested. But that that's criminal. Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice. So I think of them as the 3 c's. We have the criminal system, then secondly, we have the civil system.

Katie Koestner [00:28:30]: Civil is where let's say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school. She could potentially sue the school. You you know, you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things. A civil suit, you usually just have 2 years. Again, there's some exceptions. The third one, though, is the campus reporting system. If it's a college, you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college, you can report it and have some sort of adjudication. If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school, same deal.

Katie Koestner [00:29:05]: There's also a school campus system. So remember, criminal, civil, and campus are three areas where you can report. And that legal support hotline I just mentioned, 567 shatter, is a great option to learn about any and all. The third thing so we did first is medical attention. 2nd is reporting. The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing. There's no expiration date. Obviously, that can be done anytime.

Katie Koestner [00:29:33]: There's no one size fits all. It could be their rabbi. It could be their priest. It could be a professional rape crisis counselor. It could be online BetterHelp. It could be there's a million different ways to get emotional support, but it takes more than one person to heal. Meaning, the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to. And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling.

Katie Koestner [00:29:57]: You're a secondary trauma victim. You're trying to help your daughter, and it can feel exhausting. So don't hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children. You know, it can be so devastating and frustrating, and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, eating disorders, like metal, all kinds of depression, it can be really rough. Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:28]: One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important. And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children's bodies and helping them to understand that. What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world?

Katie Koestner [00:30:53]: Well, some schools do a really good job of consent education. Many do not. But essentially, that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case, when I was raped at William and Mary, the entire country and William and Mary's policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property. That's the history of it. You know, when you hear the phrase damaged goods, damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin. She'd be more expensive to marry off, and that's where that phrase came from. And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago, Chris, and said, I'm not damaged goods. And if a man doesn't wanna marry me, I don't wanna marry him.

Katie Koestner [00:31:37]: And why is rape the only crime where force is required? If I reached out and said, give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it, I wouldn't have to you wouldn't have to say, well, she punched me to take it. If I took your wallet, I stole from you. Like, whether or not you, like, had a very nice gold watch on, you could be, you know, wearing expensive clothes. No one could say, oh, you must give away lots of money and be rich. Why would you miss your wallet? You were asking for it. But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent, not the action of resistance. And dads, dads, dads, that's critical. Your daughter doesn't have to fight off her attacker, and she doesn't even have to say no even though that would be great, I'm sure, in your minds.

Katie Koestner [00:32:26]: But if she freezes up and doesn't feel like she can do anything and just lays there, that's still not consent. So it's really important for you to validate. Like, don't rank how she responded. Like, if only you had been, like, superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and, like, your steel belt, you know, and gotten the guy. Like, who cares? It's over. It was still wrong. It's not, like, more wrong or less wrong. It's just wrong wrong.

Katie Koestner [00:32:53]: So all rape is wrong wrong. There's not like, oh my gosh. I here's a fun story, Chris. In all the education I do, one time I was talking to some boys in high school, and one was like, but, you know, what if she leads me on? And I just get it's I'm I'm at the point in a return. And I said, oh my gosh. That's so that sounds so interesting. Like so let's just run this through. Like, imagine you're over at your girlfriend's house and you're making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town, like, for dinner or something.

Katie Koestner [00:33:22]: They're out out, and you 2 were just going at it, and you're at this point, you know, return. And then all of a sudden, at the back door, you hear the jingling of the keys. The parents are unexpectedly home. I said, young man, I know exactly what you would do. You'd holler out, like, mister and missus Smith, you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes? I'm almost done with your daughter, and it's the point of no return for me, and I just can't stop right now. You know, like, the absurdity. Right? Like, any there's no such thing. We're not animals.

Katie Koestner [00:33:50]: We can totally stop. Even if it's uncomfortable, awkward, embarrassing, horrible, there's no such thing as we're not out of our mind and body having sex. So I think it's really important to tell your daughter, like, if all of a sudden it's hurting, if it doesn't feel good, whatever her I don't know what the values of your dads are, but whatever they are, she should know. There's no point at which it's too late to say no. I say when someone said to me, Chris, once, they said, when is rape regret? And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards. Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don't stop. If you change your mind after after and say, I shouldn't have done that, that's regret. It's not rape.

Katie Koestner [00:34:31]: If you change your mind, 5 minutes in, if they keep going, it's still rape. So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear, but I think if they can talk to their daughter, and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads, but just put the podcast on again. This is sex ed consent ed 101.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]: You know, the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time, and it takes effort. And it's it's, something that's going to be a multi year entire life situation. So talk to me about the process that you had to go through, but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power, regaining your life, but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey?

Katie Koestner [00:35:21]: I'll start with the last part of your question first. Things dads should not do is take away agency. Meaning, here's the difference and nuance there. Taking away agency, it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do. Taking weight, that's taking away agency. Giving agency means let's make a list together and let's do the research. If you're up for it, help me do the research. If not, I'm the dad.

Katie Koestner [00:35:47]: I I'll take this on. I'll make the whole list of options that I can find. Then I'll review them. Let's think about them together. The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim. The more you here here's a good small point. If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail, let let's say the traditional dad reaction, we need to put him in jail. You know what? The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail.

Katie Koestner [00:36:19]: The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime. This is the tough reality. It's fine. So jail time is not likely. However, the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored. And so often, I think I hate to ever stereotype men, but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process. Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through. You know, that's a total stereotype.

Katie Koestner [00:36:52]: Women are like, I just wanna talk to you about this. I don't need an answer, and I wanna get men better at like, I'm very outcome driven, Chris. Like, seriously, like, I'm just one on the SAT. I'm a math girl. I'm a science girl. I like the data. I like to crunch the numbers. I like to win.

Katie Koestner [00:37:09]: I like to be successful. I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people. You know, I'm very, very driven. So but I also like the process because what I did helped. So I'll go back now to the other part of your question. So dads should sit with the process. Don't take away the agency. Don't provide the outcome.

Katie Koestner [00:37:27]: Don't get to the finish line. Let your daughter run the marathon herself. She's got to. However, what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me. So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet, go to the library, get some books, read law books at the law school at William and Mary. I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this. And I got there in high school and in middle school. Like, I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they're like, do everything.

Katie Koestner [00:38:04]: They always said you're never good enough, but they were they were also like, do everything. They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT. I wanted to go to MIT. Sorry. Well, they said we don't have enough money for MIT, and there's not enough girls there. That's what my mom said. Anyway, that aside, I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything. I changed laws.

Katie Koestner [00:38:27]: I tested on in Capitol Hill. If you read that Time Magazine, you'll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I'm only 18 years old. I made a movie with HBO about my story. No one helped me. I just did it. I went to New York City to get that picture taken. I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive. I stunk at it.

Katie Koestner [00:38:47]: I was a terrible debater. I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors. I became a rape crisis counselor. I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college. I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion, and I won't say I deleted everything else. I'm very lucky. I still was getting a's and still going to classes and still am doing everything else. But I think that by burying things, we hurt more.

Katie Koestner [00:39:17]: The wound does not heal with a patch. The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it. And who cares? Like, that's a great scar. You got through it. You survived, and you went on. For a while, I wanna go back one thing. Your daughter might go through a phase. Why in the blank did this have to happen to me? Is there something wrong with me? And you've simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people.

Katie Koestner [00:39:42]: It's not you. You're unfortunately, my dear, you're not special. It happens to 25% of women. So it's just you were one of those, but let's makes it had to happen for you. Let's why? Let's do something with this. Let's make it into something more. Let's make it part of who you are in a positive way. And and and I would and here's a way that I think about that.

Katie Koestner [00:40:02]: If someone you care a lot about in your life dies, like your grandmother, your auntie, you don't say when are you gonna get over it. That pain, that horrible gap in your heart, no one says, when are you gonna stop missing your grandma? That's wrong. Big losses in life, you're like, how do you honor her? Big losses, we honor them if we're on the right path. We figure out what's glorious about that, about her, about that experience, and what goes forward. That's the way to to spin anything. And and and and even for the dads who fortunately, hopefully, don't have daughters in distress, start teaching her how to spin everything that's bad into positive as fast as possible. Get over it. It's not you.

Katie Koestner [00:40:43]: It's them. How do I navigate a different path? If I don't like what I'm on, how do I change the lanes? That is resiliency. I'll say, like now I'll also say this for any dad who's still listening to me. Your daughter's I have a 14 year old intern on my team. She is magnificent. She helps with my podcast, and I mentor, if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world, join the Take Back the Night team. We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya. We have Benter who does our like, it's so cool and amazing.

Katie Koestner [00:41:15]: We empower every single woman, and and we teach them business skills. And if your daughter can't like, how about flourishing with fabulous, like, international global women, young women? Like, we have amazing women. I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer, but my gosh, we have a team of, like, 50. They're so we put them on teams. Like, your daughter should be around, like, if she's on into sports. Like, what team is she on? Don't let her isolate. Don't let her find her heart just in one boy. Like, put her around amazing people who are gonna push her, help her thrive.

Katie Koestner [00:41:57]: That's gonna make her really amazing. So I'm just plugging, like, I don't care if it's Take Back the Night. I do care if it's something. Just find some way to put around, not just singing. I know. Not pooh poohing singing. I can't sing at all. I can't do singing.

Katie Koestner [00:42:15]: I can't do car wheels. But I I think, you know, it's putting around people who will push her in a positive way. Honor her spirit, push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way. Like, all of the things you want. Right? Like, those are all great things. They're very idealistic. If you can't tell, I'm very positive that the glass is always almost full.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:40]: Well, Katie, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey, but sharing all of this amazing insight today. If people wanna find out more about you, your story, your organization, where should they go to find out more?

Katie Koestner [00:42:53]: Love, love that. First of all, believe it or not, I still go around the country and speak. I just got back from speaking in Nantucket. How fun was that? I took a ferry to my speech. That's the first time I could say that. But I think I love speaking, but I also have a team of speakers. So if you want more education in your community, that is either Google Katie Koestner, my name, or you can go right to campus outreach services, and that's education and awareness. There's tons of ideas there.

Katie Koestner [00:43:23]: 2nd idea, take back the night. We are always eager to have more volunteers, more financial support. Go read about the hotline and coolness. You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community. We have a whole team who will help you. It's just a one day event of awareness. You could do a bike race. You can do a walk.

Katie Koestner [00:43:42]: You can do a vigil. You can have it at your church. You can have it at your school. You can have it at your business, but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness. So I encourage everybody to do that as well. But thank you, Chris. This is fabulous. This is so much fun.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:58]: Well, I truly appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all the work that you're doing to support so many across the globe, and I wish you all the best.

Katie Koestner [00:44:06]: Absolutely. Take care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:08]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:57]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:06]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:59]: Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

An Educational Journey Turned Parenting Mission

Jen Lumanlan's shift from a sustainability consulting career to a focus on parenting wasn't incidental. After grappling with the challenges of raising her own daughter, she realized that academic research on child development could serve as a guiding light. This led her to pursue master's degrees in psychology and education, and subsequently, to the creation of her podcast and book. Her primary goal? To leverage her learnings to support other parents facing similar challenges.

Challenging Conventional Discipline

Understanding the Power Dynamics at Play

At the heart of Jen's approach is the critique of conventional discipline methods such as timeouts and consequences. According to Jen, these methods often perpetuate harmful power dynamics. They emphasize a power-over relationship, where the authority figure (the parent) uses their power to correct or control the child. These traditional methods can breed resentment and a lack of genuine understanding.

Exploring Alternative Strategies

The Shift From Control to Collaboration

So, what can parents do instead? Jen advocates for strategies that satisfy both the parent's and the child's needs, fostering a power-sharing relationship. For example, during conflict, she suggests addressing the situation outside of the moment of crisis. Proactive discussions about recurring issues like tooth brushing or bedtime can pave the way for more harmonious solutions. By understanding and meeting each other's needs, both parties can find agreeable strategies, reducing resistance and conflict.

Identifying and Meeting Needs

The Two-Way Street of Parenting Needs

Parents often neglect their own needs in the face of their child's demands, but Jen emphasizes that both parent and child have valid needs. Strategies should aim to fulfill both. She introduces the concept of "cherry needs" — the most critical needs that recur for both parents and children. For instance, a child's need for autonomy can be met with choices that do not compromise the parent's essential needs, such as brushing teeth in a different room.

Problem-Solving in Real-Time

Navigating Tantrums and Meltdowns

Tantrums and meltdowns are common challenges, and Jen offers peace and empathy as the best tools. Understanding the underlying needs that prompt such behaviors and addressing them proactively or with empathetic responses in the heat of the moment can defuse tension. Validating the child's feelings and needs even during a meltdown can lead to quicker resolutions and more trust.

Shifting Dynamics with Teens

It's Never Too Late to Transform Relationships

Parents of older children might assume it's too late for change, but Jen underscores that it's never too late. Even with tweens and teens, shifting from a power-over to a power-sharing dynamic can salvage and improve the relationship. She proposes using phrases like "I'm worried that…" to express needs and concerns, fostering mutual respect and understanding.

Healing From Our Own Childhood

Breaking Cycles Through Self-Reflection

Many of our parenting triggers stem from our own childhood experiences. By unpacking and healing these old traumas, parents can become more conscious and connected. This self-awareness prevents past negative patterns from repeating, helping parents respond more thoughtfully rather than reacting on impulse.

Broader Societal Change

Raising Children Who Challenge Injustice

Jen believes that by fostering power-sharing relationships at home, we can equip children to challenge systemic injustices. When children learn to view all individuals' needs as equally important, they carry this perspective into broader societal contexts, questioning and challenging systems of domination and inequality.

Jen Lumanlan's insights offer valuable guidance in our quest to raise empathetic, empowered children. By shifting from control to collaboration and addressing the deeper needs within our family dynamics, we not only nurture healthier relationships but also contribute to a more just world. Tune into this enlightening episode of Dads with Daughters for more practical wisdom on transformative parenting.

Connect with Jen and deepen your understanding of parenting dynamics at Your Parenting Mojo.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I love being on this journey with you where we have an opportunity to be able to learn together about what it takes to be that dad that we wanna be. And all of us wanna be that those engaged dads, those dads that are there for our kids. And it takes work. It takes time. It takes effort to be a quality parent, and it takes resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can bring different resources to you, different different opportunities for you to learn and grow. The the biggest thing is that you're open to learning. And that's what I hope for me for you every week when we're talking. This week, we got another great guest with us. Jen Loominlan is with us today. And Jen hosts the Your Parenting Mojo podcast, which was named the best research parenting podcast by Lifehacker. It's been downloaded over 3,000,000 times.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: After attending Berkeley and Yale and following a traditional career path in sustainability consulting, Jen found that parenting was her toughest challenge yet. She went back to school for a master's degree in psychology focused on child development and another in education and trained as a coactive coach to share what she learned with other parents. She's an author of the book Parenting Beyond Power, How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family and the world. And today, we're gonna be talking with her about her own experiences and these experiences with the book and some of the things that you can take out of this book to help you to be that parent that you wanna be. Jen, thanks so much for being here today.

Jen Lumanlan [00:02:16]: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]: It is my pleasure. I mentioned the fact that you've got this book that you've put out into the world. As an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion has to go into putting a book out into the world. And it is a lot of time and effort, and you have to have a passion for it to be able to get to that end point. So tell me the story. What what was it about? You know, I introduced you. You you had this career, but you said, you know what? I wanna go back and I want to do do more work on education, work with parents. But what made you decide that you wanted to put all this into a book that was gonna help others? What drew you to that final point?

Jen Lumanlan

I think I started the podcast because, you know, I had no idea how to parent. And I didn't have the most amazing parenting role models myself either, and so I realized I could look to academic research to help me understand how to go about raising my daughter. And so I kind of figured, you know, I I should get some education on this so that I can put some kind of guardrails around it and know I'm not missing anything huge, and that's what led to the master's degrees. And and then I was kinda thinking, well, it's kinda silly to do all this learning for myself and not share it. So I created the podcast to share that with other people. And then I over the course of of sort of exploring a lot of topics on the podcast that we have over 200 episodes now that are all research based. And I think, you know, it became really clear that I was hearing similar challenges from parents over and over again. And and they're kind of variations on the phrase, how do I get my child to Right? How do I get my kid to put their shoes on in the morning, to eat their breakfast, to stay at the dinner table, to get in the bath, to stay in bed at the end of the night? You know? And that's just the toddler set.

Jen Lumanlan [00:03:59]: The challenges expand from there. So, what I realized was the the tools that I had learned from others and kind of adapted with putting my own spin on them were really helping parents to kind of address those challenges, those daily challenges on a day to day basis. And at the same time, they also help us to address some of the big challenges that we face out in the world that are related to kind of being in power over relationships. And it turns out that our kids learn a lot about power from our relationships with them and when we're using our power to get them to because it seems like that's the only thing we can do. Right? We just wanna get through the day. It's not we want to use our our power over our kids. We're just trying to get through the day. And we use our power because it seems like that's the only option we have because that's what was modeled for us when we were kids.

Jen Lumanlan [00:04:50]: And if we can instead see how to be in a power sharing relationship with our kids, then our kids stop resisting us because you don't resist when your needs are met and when, you know, when you're not being sort of dominated by somebody else. And and also that will help us to address some of the social challenges we face that have their origins in these power based relationships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]: So let's talk a little bit about power because in your book, you do talk about the that that power dynamic, and you challenge conventional discipline methods like timeouts and consequences. And you suggest that they perpetuate harmful power dynamics like you just were mentioning. So what are some other alternative strategies that parents can use when they feel overwhelmed, or when they feel that their child's behavior is especially difficult?

Jen Lumanlan [00:05:38]: So the I mean, firstly, the challenge with those conventional discipline methods. I mean, if you ever put a child in time out, right, do they come out of time out kind of contrite and ready to apologize for the thing that they did wrong and they never do it again? Right? No. They usually kinda resent being in time out. They come out of it kinda pissed at you, and they do it again. Right? They do the same thing over again. Same with consequences. We can we can withdraw a privilege of some kind. We can punish a child in some way, and we can call it a, quote, unquote, logical consequence because it seems like the punishment is sort of related to the thing they did wrong.

Jen Lumanlan [00:06:12]: But, essentially, it is a punishment. It is us using our power to say your behavior is not acceptable to me. And until that changes, I'm going to withdraw this thing that you care about. Right? We are using our power to to make both of those things happen. And so what what I want to make sure that that your listeners understand is that I am not advocating that we parents suddenly say, okay. Whatever you want. Totally fine. Totally cool.

Jen Lumanlan [00:06:32]: Right? I'm just here to exist to enable you to live your best life. No. What I'm saying is that both parent and child have needs. And the way that we use the word need in our culture is a little bit odd. Right? Like, I might say, I can't play with you right now. I need to make dinner. And needing to make dinner is not actually a need. That's a strategy that I'm using to meet my need for food, for nourishment.

Jen Lumanlan [00:07:01]: Right? And there are a 100 other strategies we could use. I could toss a pizza in the oven. We could go out and get dinner. I could ask someone to bring us dinner. We could have cereal for dinner. So many different strategies we could use to meet that need. And so what I'm saying is that you, parents, are a whole person with needs, and you deserve to get those needs met. And your child is a whole person with needs, and your child deserves to get those needs met.

Jen Lumanlan [00:07:26]: And the vast majority of the time, preferably if we're not dealing with it in the moment. Right? We're not we're not waiting in for this thing that our kid does over and over and over again, and we're not waiting for that to happen. Then, okay, needs? What what am I supposed to do? Right? Instead, we can actually address that outside of that difficult moment. We can say, hey. I noticed we've been having a hard time with tooth brushing lately. Can we have a chat about that? Because I'd really like for that to be different. I'd like for our evenings to be different. Would you like for our evenings to be different? Chances are the kid probably does.

Jen Lumanlan [00:07:53]: Because if this is a big deal to you, then, you know, there have been time outs and all kinds of stress around toothbrushing. And then, okay, so we're we're trying to understand how each person is feeling. We're trying to understand what each person needs. And what the need is determines the strategy that we can use to help them meet the need. So I'm happy to dig further into that if you'd like, but I'm curious if you have any questions about that aspect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: No. I'd love to delve a little bit deeper into needs because I know that in the book, you do talk about the importance of meeting both the parents and the child's needs, like you were talking about to reduce that conflict. So how can parents begin to identify and prioritize their own needs without feeling guilty or neglecting their children's?

Jen Lumanlan [00:08:32]: So it's super common for the parents that I work with to say to me, before I started working with you, I didn't even know that I had needs. Because we didn't learn this when we were kids. Right? And so just to be clear on what I'm talking about related to needs, I'm talking about things like rest, like self care, like respect, which is not necessarily having everybody do everything you say. Right? It can be, like, holding someone in esteem and high regard. And we all want respect, and our kids want respect too. It's things like ease. And we just want parenting to be a little bit easier for collaboration, for harmony with our kids. Right? These are the kinds of things I'm talking about related to needs.

Jen Lumanlan [00:09:10]: And so if we take tooth brushing as an example, right, could imagine if tooth brushing has been stressful because my kid has been resisting it. Let's say my kid is a toddler. My kid's actually 10 by now. But let's say it's a toddler, and I might think, okay. What is my need in this? Right? I might I might have been saying to my child, I need you to brush your teeth. That's not actually my need. My need is for protection of her health and safety. It is for a little bit of ease and collaboration and harmony in the evenings at the end of a long day.

Jen Lumanlan [00:09:39]: And if you're wanting to, like, explore what needs are, there's a a list of needs in the back of of the book. And there's also a quiz that I offer at your parentingmojo.com, which allows you to go through it's your parentingmojo.comforward/ quiz, and you can answer some simple questions about your child's behavior and get to your child's most important needs that come up over and over and over again. And you may well find that some of those are coming up in tooth brushing. So if your child has what we call a cherry need, right, there's the cherry on top of the cupcake, which is the 3 to 5 needs that are coming up over and over and over again. For many toddlers, autonomy is right up there at the top. They want to be able to have some kind of say over something that feels important to them. Underneath that, we have the frosting needs, which is the next 3 to 5 most important. Underneath that is kind of all of the other needs.

Jen Lumanlan [00:10:26]: And so we're always firstly looking at what are those cherry needs, and that quiz is gonna help you to understand what your child's cherry needs are. And so even if your child isn't speaking yet, right, if your child is too young to speak, if your child doesn't speak, if you've done this quiz, you can say, okay. What is it an autonomy? Is it possible the child wants to have some kind of say over what's happening here? How can I make that happen? Right? You're not giving the child necessarily the choice, do you want to brush teeth or not? But what kind of toothpaste do you wanna use? What kind of toothbrush do you wanna use? For us, oh my goodness. It it turned out to be I my daughter wanted to decide where we brushed. For a solid 6 months, we brushed in the living room. And so I might initially think, no. She should have brushed her teeth in the in the bathroom. That's where teeth are brushed.

Jen Lumanlan [00:11:10]: Right? But if I can find the cognitive flexibility to say, alright. What are my needs? Her health and safety, peace, ease, harmony. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet my needs? Yes. It does. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet her need for autonomy? Yes. It does. Then is there a reason why we can't brush teeth in the living room? No. There is not.

Jen Lumanlan [00:11:28]: And so that's what we did. And so the critical, critical piece here is that when it's a need for autonomy, right, it's not it's not the brushing teeth in the living room. It's some magical solution that will work for every child. If your child has a need for comfort, right, if you've been holding them down and forcing the toothbrush in their mouth, saying, let's brush in the living room is not gonna address that. And so we have to know what is the child's need, and then we find strategies to meet their need. And it feels good to have our needs met, and everybody wants to have it happen. And so that's how it helps us to get both of our needs met.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]: So another thing that your books talk about, and really what you just kind of framed seems to fit in with it, is one of the key concepts you talk about is your problem solving approach, and it it basically what you just described. Are there other parts though of that approach that you could walk us through that would allow for someone to get a better sense of what the approach kind of how an adult would frame that approach, and also how a parent might then apply it to other challenges like tantrums or other situations like that.

Jen Lumanlan [00:12:34]: What I want to have parents see is that very, very often, these are not isolated instances. When your child is having tantrums, chances are it's kind of about the same thing over and over and over again. And so that represents a huge opportunity because you don't have to wait for the next tooth brushing session to address this. You can address this beforehand while everybody's calm, everybody's rested, everybody's fed, nobody's at the end of their rope. Right? That's the time ideally we want to address this. And that allows us to have more of a conversation. And even if your kid isn't talking yet, kids sense the difference between, you're gonna brush your teeth because I said so, because because I want what's good for you, and you have to brush your teeth so you don't get cavities, and all the reasons that we give them. And, oh my gosh, I really wish that this could be easier for both of us.

Jen Lumanlan [00:13:22]: I'm trying to figure out how do we meet both of our needs here. Right? Kids know the difference between those two things. And even if you can't fully understand the child's need, they are often willing to come towards you because you're trying. But I also wanna give you an example of, like, in the moment the kid is already melting down. And so I'm thinking of a parent that I coached a while ago whose child was having this meltdown, and it was coming up because the child and the parent were having 1 on 1 playtime in the afternoon, and it's coming time to go and pick the older child up from school. And so the kid has, like, a you know, the kid the the younger child who's at home with the parent is having a fallout on the floor, wailing, hitting, biting, all the rest of it meltdown that's happening. And the parent is trying to reason with the child. Right? Come on.

Jen Lumanlan [00:14:06]: It's time to go. We do this every day. Why is this so hard? We already had playtime. Let's go. And if you've ever had a meltdown yourself with your partner, with anyone else who's in your life, if you imagine your partner coming back and saying, but I told you a 100 times, this is how we do it. We can sort of get a sense for what it might be like to receive that from our parent. And what do we want instead? What we really want is someone to try to see it from our perspective. And so what I asked that parent to do and what she ended up doing was when the next time the child had the the the meltdown because they didn't have a chance to kinda talk about it beforehand, the parent kinda went in with, oh my goodness.

Jen Lumanlan [00:14:46]: I hear you. It's so hard to transition out of playtime with me. Right? Because it's so much fun, and you love it so much. And now we're going to pick up your sibling, and for the rest of the afternoon, you're gonna have to share me. You're gonna have to wait. You can't just have the thing that you want right at the moment that you want it. Is that what's going on for you? And the kid is like, yes. And we're done.

Jen Lumanlan [00:15:05]: And there's no more hitting, and there's no more biting, and there's no more flailing on the floor because the child was heard. And so I'm not saying this magically fixes every tantrum in your child's life, but I can tell you that when you see these things coming, when you see, okay. Yeah. Every day at this time, my kid has a tantrum. Why is that? What need are they trying to meet? Can I help them meet that need? That takes care of, like, a massive chunk of them up front, so you never even get into the tantrum in the first place. And then once you're in it, then the empathy the okay. What's really going on for you? Can I sit with you in this hard time that you're having? And that's where you find the real beauty of, yes. I just wanted to be heard.

Jen Lumanlan [00:15:45]: I just wanted somebody to acknowledge that it's hard for me to to stop playing with you and have to share you for the rest of the evening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]: So a lot of the examples you gave were of younger children. And in a perfect world, I would have loved to have had this book when my kids were really young. So if someone is hearing this and they're saying, I've got a tween, I've got a teen, and our relationship's not the best, we're in this fighting, we were fighting together, we're not seen eye to eye, you know, we're, you know, we're isolated, you know, we're we're not where we need to be. Are there things that they can do with this problem solving approach that they can start putting in place even though their children are not at that young age that they can start using right away?

Jen Lumanlan [00:16:28]: Yes. It's never ever, ever too late to do this. I mentioned that my parenting role models were not the best, and I've thought about this a lot actually. And, you know, what would have happened I guess I do wanna be clear. You know, they were doing the best they could with the tools that they had. And if one of them had learned these tools and had tried to make some kind of shift, even in my late teenage years, would that have made a difference? Yes. It absolutely would have. And so where I would try to start with this kind of thing is to to try to kind of back off where you see that you're using power to get your child to change their behavior.

Jen Lumanlan [00:17:04]: Not back off completely, but try to use a simple phrase. And that phrase is, I'm worried that dot dot dot. So if your, you know, your your kid is asking to do something, they wanna go out with friends, they whatever whatever is the thing that you're thinking about saying no to. That previously would you would have used your power, you would have made sure that they didn't do the thing that you that they're asking to do, that they really want do, that you don't want them to do. And so instead of of doing that, we can say, I'm worried that you're not gonna be safe. Right? I'm worried that this specific thing is going to happen. How can we make sure this thing doesn't happen? Because what what what the I'm worried that does is it helps me to articulate my need. I am worried for your safety.

Jen Lumanlan [00:17:46]: If I can know that certain parameters are in place that mean that I think you're gonna be safe, then, yeah, I'm willing to say yes to this thing. Then I don't have to use my power over you to try and get you to change your behavior. I think that what what parents you're describing or seeing is I get actually reading for the first time doctor Thomas Gordon's book on, parent effectiveness training, and he talks about power and influence. And when we've used power over our children for a long time, we tend to find we have less influence as they get older because people don't like being influenced by people who have used power over them. And so if we want to have influence over our children as they get older and and they realize, you know what? You don't you actually don't have any power over me anymore. I'm getting bigger to the point where you can't physically intimidate me, and once I have the car keys, right, I'm done. I'm out of here. You can't control me anymore.

Jen Lumanlan [00:18:37]: And if we still want to be able to influence our children at that point, we have to be willing to give up some of that power, and I'm worried that is a great place to start with that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:47]: One of the other things that you talk about in the book is that many of the triggers, the triggers that all of us have internally, the things that set us off in our own parenting journey with our kids stem from how we were raised. How can parents begin to unpack and heal from their own childhood experiences to become more conscious, connected parents?

Jen Lumanlan [00:19:09]: Well, that could be another episode by itself. So, I mean, there's a lot there. And what parents that I work with tend to find is that they are most triggered by their child's behavior when they when their child gets to an age where they were having a hard time with their parents. So there's, you know, all the typical toddler stuff that is just hard when the toddler is resisting for the first time, and we used to resist as well. Right? We didn't like it either, being told what to do and that my way is the only way and that even if we try and kind of be nice about it, that ultimately, the kid's gonna do things the way that we want them to do. We didn't like that either. We pushed back against it. And, eventually, we learned there's no point in pushing back because the parent's gonna win eventually.

Jen Lumanlan [00:19:50]: And so you know, most people find that stage difficult for that reason. And then as we go through life, there was probably an age where we kinda butted up against our parents for for whatever reason. And then when our child gets to that age, then we remember all those struggles. It's like they're they're right here again. They're right here with us, and they remind us of the hard time that we had, the ways that we were dominated by our parents. And I think this, it's especially difficult actually for parents who have done a little bit of work, who are trying to do things differently with their child. Because when their child is doing something the parent finds difficult, there's this kind of tug of war happening in their heads. There's this, I know what my values are.

Jen Lumanlan [00:20:31]: I know how I want to raise you. I want to be in this power sharing relationship with you, but I would have been punished for doing the thing you just did. If I never spoken to my parent like that, right, they would have hit me. And so it's like there's this this massive, you know, you can imagine this tug of war literally happening inside of our heads. And and it's happening in this moment when our kid is doing something we told them not to do. And the amount of mental capacity it takes to be able to navigate that and also be calm for your child and show up for your child is is overwhelming, and so we snap. And so that's why I teach a whole 10 week workshop called taming your triggers on where does this stuff come from, really digging deep and to start healing those things so that we don't have to carry around the weight of that hurt every day. And, also, really digging deep into the the tools that I've been mentioning that are described in the book and, like, how do we actually use them when I'm feeling triggered? Right? How do I how do I create a pause? Because that's that's the critical phase for especially for people who are triggered, is creating that pause between the thing my child does and my reaction.

Jen Lumanlan [00:21:42]: And once you have that pause, then you have a moment to be able to say, okay. What are my values here? What's really important to me? What is my need? Okay. This is it. And so the thing that's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna be x rather than, you know, whatever it is that currently flies out in the moment that our child does this thing right now.

Jen Lumanlan [00:22:00]: And so many times, it is that latter aspect.

Jen Lumanlan [00:22:03]: And so often, it's your parents' voice that comes out. You're like, where did that come from? Yes. Because our parents raised us using these tools. They they dominated us. Even if they didn't mean to, even if they were doing the best that they could, they dominated us. And so when we're in these stressed moments, the thing that comes out is the thing that was modeled for us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]: You know, the final thing that I think that I'd mentioned is that in your book, you really talk about transforming the family dynamic and that you say that through transforming this dynamic within our own homes, we can contribute to what you call a broader societal change. So how do you envision parents using these parenting tools to raise children who are capable of challenging system systematic injustices in the world around them?

Jen Lumanlan [00:22:48]: Yeah. I mean, I see it happening already in the parents that I work with. And there's an example in the book of a parent who parent Maria and her her daughter, Isabelle. And, you know, Isabelle is one of those kids who, from the get go, knew exactly what she wanted and would scream if you held her the wrong way and would refuse to put her shoes on as a toddler. Right? Even even to go to a a nice outing. Right? The parents are like, okay. Put your shoes on. Well, no.

Jen Lumanlan [00:23:13]: You told me to do it. No. I'm not doing it. And they stand there and stand off for half an hour, and the kid's not doing anything, and and they never make it out. And so Maria very quickly realized that using these power over tools was just gonna result in endless repetitions of that situation and started using these power sharing tools. And the transformation in their own relationship has been really profound. I mean, this is a kid who, I think Maria actually sprained her ankle in the house one day, and Isabelle stepped over her and said, you know, what? What's for lunch? No empathy, no compassion, no nothing. And within a period of months, right, we see empathy, we see compassion start coming out.

Jen Lumanlan [00:23:57]: We see the kids all around the table, and some of the kids are teasing mom. And and Isabelle says, I'm looking at mom, and it seems like she's not up for being teased right now. Right? Reading mom's cues and being able to say, you know what? I'm not seeing that that mom's really into this. And so that's just within the family. And then we look outside the family, and Isabel sees that there's a kid in the school who has ADHD and is being bullied by the peer group that Isabelle is a part of, and Isabelle says, you know what? No. I'm not I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna be part of this group and goes over and makes friends with a kid with ADHD. So that's, you know, that's a super small example.

Jen Lumanlan [00:24:32]: And then we start to extrapolate that out to other systems in the world. Right? If we think about things like racism, it's ultimately a power over system. It's me saying, my right to exist as a white person, to be comfortable as a white person is more important than people of color's right to exist in their whole selves. And what if we were to say, you know what? Your needs are just as important as my needs. I don't believe that these systems of domination out in the world can exist when we all perceive each other's needs to be equally as important as our own. And so, yes, it's gonna take some time. Right? This can't be the only way we go about doing these things. Parents are not responsible in themselves by, you know, just alone for solving these societal challenges.

Jen Lumanlan [00:25:16]: We also need lots of other work as well. But I truly believe that seeing each other's needs as as important as our own is a critical piece of making the world a place where everybody can thrive.

Jen Lumanlan [00:25:30]: I really appreciate you sharing everything that you've been sharing today. And if people want to find out more about you, your podcast, your book, where's the best place for them to go?

Jen Lumanlan [00:25:40]: So everything I do flows through your parentingmojo.com. I would definitely advise parents to go check out the quiz at your parentingmojo.comforward/quiz. Because once you know your child's needs, everything just gets so much easier. Because as soon as you see resistance, you can say, okay. Where is this coming from? Is it a need? Oh, yes. It's autonomy. It's connection. It's, you know, whatever that cherry need is.

Jen Lumanlan [00:26:03]: And then you can very quickly find the strategies that meet their need instead of having to look through the list of 50 needs and say, oh, which one is it? So I would definitely recommend that. I am on Facebook and Instagram. I don't use them super much, but I am there as well. And so, yeah, subscribe to podcast episodes as well, through the through the website. And the book is at Parenting Beyond Power.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:25]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of this today for what you're putting out into the world and what you're doing to help parents be better parents, and I wish you all the best.

Jen Lumanlan [00:26:32]: Thanks so much, Chris. It was great to be with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong, empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:32]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a

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Exploring the Role of Fathers in Pregnancy and Beyond

In a heartwarming and insightful episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis chats with Matthew Morris, who shares his unique journey into fatherhood. Through experiences that span 15 countries, Morris does more than recount personal stories; he advocates for systemic changes in how fathers are supported during the pregnancy journey. Here's a deeper dive into the profound topics discussed in this enriching episode.

The Discovery of Parenthood

Matthew Morris and his wife Shannon found out they were expecting their first child in the most memorable way. Following an offhand Mother's Day comment, a series of pregnancy tests confirmed the joyous news. As fate would have it, the couple discovered they were having a girl at a family gathering through a creative, heartwarming gender reveal—Matthew dyed his hair pink to share the news.

A Journey Across Continents

Before settling into parenthood, the adventurous couple decided to travel to 15 countries, immersing themselves in different cultures and learning global perspectives on pregnancy and childbirth. They planned their destinations whimsically; Brazil if a boy, Thailand if a girl, turning every step into an adventure. Their travel decisions were also influenced by significant life changes, including job losses and leaving active military duty. These pivotal moments pushed them forward into the next chapter of their lives.

Navigating Healthcare and Birth

The Morris's initial plan was to have their baby in Denmark, attracted by the progressive and cost-effective healthcare system. However, visa issues forced them back to the U.S. at 35 weeks pregnant. Matthew expressed strong critiques of the U.S. healthcare system's support for childbirth, and particularly its lack of resources for fathers. Ultimately, Shannon opted for a home birth in their Chicago apartment, supported by a midwife and a doula. This experience emphasized the importance of having a birthing team that values the father's role—Matthew even got to "catch" his daughter when she was born on February 2nd, 2024.

Advocacy for Doulas and Progressive Paternity Leave

From their global travels, Matthew observed how other countries treat pregnancy as a natural life event rather than a medical condition. He strongly advocates for the inclusion of doulas and midwives in insurance coverage, given their essential role in supporting both parents. His experiences highlighted the stark differences in parental leave policies worldwide, with some countries offering up to 24 months of government-supported leave—a far cry from the limited options in the U.S.

The Birth of a Book

Inspired by their journey, Matthew authored "The Partner's Purpose During Pregnancy." This practical guide offers straightforward, actionable steps to help expectant fathers get involved early and remain supportive throughout the pregnancy. Matthew's insights are geared towards making the transition into fatherhood less daunting, emphasizing the importance of preparation and involvement.

Matthew Morris's journey into fatherhood is a testament to the importance of an involved and supportive parenting partner. His stories and insights underscore the need for systemic changes in how we support fatherhood and childbirth in the U.S. For fathers looking to connect and learn, resources like the "Dads with Daughters" podcast and the "Fatherhood Insider" offer invaluable support. For more from Matthew Morris, visit his website at www.thepartnerspurpose.com and follow him on Instagram at @thepartnerspurpose.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on this journey together. You know, I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters, and we are all rolling in the same direction. We're all working to raise those strong, independent women that we want for our daughters to become. And hopefully, by now, after 250 episodes that we've had of this podcast, you know that we cannot do this alone. You and I cannot do this alone. We have to be able to rely on others.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: We have to be able to rely on working with one another to be able to lift each other up, to be able to learn and grow from each other, to be able to be the dads that we want to be. None of us have all of the tools, have all of the understanding. None of us have the perfect manual to follow to be that great dad that you want to be. But this podcast is here to be able to give you some, some hints, some tips, some things that you can do to be able to be that father that you want to be. So every week I bring you different guests, different people, people with different experiences, fathers, mothers, other people with resources that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way, provide you some tools for your toolbox, and help you to be able to become that father that you want to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Matthew Morris is with us today. Really excited to have him here.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]: And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in becoming a father. And prior to becoming a father, he and his wife traveled to 15 countries to learn about parenthood and preparation for the birth of their daughter this past February. And, as he says, it's been a wild ride. And I think for every father, it's a wild ride when you lead up to to to fatherhood. And and once your daughter's here, it becomes an even greater ride, and it continues to go on throughout their lives. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk about fatherhood, talk about his own journey and a little bit more, and to introduce him to you. Matthew, thanks so much for being here today.

Matthew Morris [00:02:28]: Thank you, Christopher. Glad to be here.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Glad that you and I were able to connect and be able to have you talk about your own journey. And one of the first things that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Matthew Morris [00:02:46]: My wife was standing at the top of the staircase, and I had just walked in the door, and I heard her scream. And my wife is a hardcore former United States Navy veteran, and she just, like, even keel all the time. Things do not rile her. And when I heard, bat, yeah, from the top of the staircase, I thought one of 2 things has happened. I said, okay. The house is being breached, and we are about to go on the defense, or she's pregnant. And sure enough, I look up, and she has 3 pregnancy tests in her hands like Wolverine. And I am I book it up the stairs, and she looks at me, and she's like, can you see the pink line? Can you see it? And mind you, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

Matthew Morris [00:03:41]: I'm looking. I'm like, may maybe. I think so. And she goes, okay. You pee on 1, and then we'll know. And so shortly that was right after Mother's Day last year. And we were coming back from a wedding, and a woman had wished Shannon. She said happy Mother's Day.

Matthew Morris [00:04:02]: And Shannon was like, I'm not a mom, and and we were walking away. And she kinda elbowed me and was like, wouldn't it be funny if and so I found out initially that that she was pregnant and went in a few weeks later to to verify everything. And then then we knew she was pregnant. Obviously, didn't know it was gonna be a little girl until a few months later. And the way that we found out that it was gonna be a little girl was we were we were at a family reunion with Shannon's family. It was a birthday party. And she gets an email, and we're we're sitting all sitting around kinda talking, talking. And, again, Shannon Shannon does not get super excited or super emotional about anything.

Matthew Morris [00:04:50]: She's so just level headed. And and she puts her phone down. She looks at me and goes, we gotta go. And I said, why? What was going on? She goes, I know what we're gonna have. And I said, you mean for dinner? She goes, no. For the rest of our lives. And I said, okay. So we say goodbyes, and we go to the haircare store, and she buys a bottle of blue hair dye and a bottle of pink hair dye.

Matthew Morris [00:05:22]: And we go to her parents' house, and we said, here's Matthew what we're gonna do. I'm gonna blindfold you. I'm gonna dye your hair one color or the other, and that is how we are going to do the gender reveal. And I have a very proud mohawk. And so if you go on her Instagram, there's a hilarious video of me blindfolded and Shannon with bright pink hair dye, and I take the blindfold off. And as soon as she hands me in the mirror, well, the sun's behind me, so I look in the mirror, and it just blinds me. So I can't even say I can't even tell what I'm looking at myself. And finally, I look around and I see it's pink, and then that's that's how we found out.

Matthew Morris [00:06:04]: So that was kind of the the spark to our international journey. And now so we're in fast forward. That was a little over a year ago. We come back to now. Shannon and I made a bet. We have a little boy, we're going to Brazil. And if we have a little girl, we're gonna go to Thailand. And so right now, as we are wrapping up our adventure in Chicago, we are prepping to set sail for title.

Matthew Morris [00:06:31]: And so that in between everywhere that we went from the beginning of 2023 to now. And we had to work through our personal endeavors. So January, February of 2023, Shannon was the tech layoff, and then we found out Shannon was pregnant in April of 2023, and then my separation from the marine corps came in June of 2023. And so we went from dual income, no kids, to dual unemployed with a baby on the way. And there is nothing that is a better catalyst for it's time to grab life by the horns than realizing, hey. We gotta figure out somehow to eat. And with that, and this comes into the fatherhood aspect, in our study of how childbirth and the medical system of childbirth in the United States is so far behind the rest of the world, unfortunately, we actually made the decision that we didn't wanna have the baby in the States. And that was a big part of why we left the country.

Matthew Morris [00:07:45]: So our original plan was to have Maven in Denmark because Denmark, Sweden, that region has a extremely progressive and much safer approach to childbirth, and it's also significantly cheaper. Even with the cost of flying over there, living temporarily, and paying for the birth out of pocket, all of that would still have been cheaper than going through an uninsured birth in a US medical system. And the big challenge for us was coming off of active duty where almost all of your medical is paid for. When that came to an end, we didn't have health insurance for childbirth. And so what is normally nothing out of pocket with your insurance policy is between $3,025 total to have a baby in the United States. And in addition to that, the restrictions that are put on expecting moms when they are going through, the tests that are mandatory, the lack of education for dads and partners or birthing partners or whoever that person is that is supporting mom through her pregnancy. It's such an afterthought in the United States, which is what set us off on putting the information together for the partner's purpose during pregnancy. So fast forward a few months, our visas were not processed properly, and so we had to come back to the United States when Shannon was 35 weeks pregnant.

Matthew Morris [00:09:31]: Well, the FAA won't let you travel at 36 weeks. So it was either be considered an illegal immigrant in a foreign country where we were having a baby or hightail it back to the United States and try and get connected with a midwife and doula team here, which fortunately, we did. So Shannon made the decision that she wanted to have a midwife and doula guided home birth. And so in our apartment in Lincoln Park, Chicago on February 2nd, 2024 at about 1:45 AM. She gave birth with no meds, no anesthesia, just the raw power of being the woman that she is to our daughter. And our birth team coached me through, and I actually got to catch my daughter. I was the quarterback before the hike and had her in my arms and then passed her to the midwife to do all of the immediate post birth things. And baby is healthy and just a a little tornado right now.

Matthew Morris [00:12:56]: And that divide and conquer team, I stand beside and advocate for work on it. And part of what we're also trying to advocate for is the use of doulas and midwives to be covered by general insurance. Because that is a big reason why so many people don't use them is because it's not considered a necessary medical expense. Well, my advocation to that is it is. It is just as important for the birthing or the pregnancy for me to have someone that I can ask questions of, that I can go to, that has experience so that Shannon didn't have to in dealing with with pregnancy brain or brain fog or exhaustion or all of the stress that your body and mind undergo during pregnancy, I had a person that I could ask these questions of, get the answers for so that she could focus on her health and the health of the baby.

Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]: So I guess one of the questions that I would ask, with that whole journey is you took a number of months while she was going through that pregnancy, as you said, to be able to learn more about pregnancy, learn more about what happens in other countries to be able to create this book that you've created. And I know that you were out for, I think it was 41 weeks, you said you went to 15 countries. And I guess let's talk on the high level. What are some of the biggest things that you learned in going to those different countries, seeing what other countries do in comparison to what happens in the United States?

Matthew Morris [00:14:38]: So saying we were mostly in Sangin. And by and large, there is a different mindset in the way that pregnancy and pregnant people are viewed. My biggest lesson, my biggest learning point was that pregnancy is not a disease. In the United States, we treat pregnancy as a disease. A pregnant mom is looked at as having symptoms. Well, symptoms are the byproduct of illness as opposed to what I viewed there was pregnancy is just part of life. It's the natural progression of all things culminating in birth, and because it's treated so much differently, you have significantly lower rates of things like postpartum depression, you have a lower infant mortality rate, you have a lower maternal mortality rate. The other piece is the recovery time.

Matthew Morris [00:15:45]: So commonly referred to as maternity leave, paternity leave, and what's referred to as nesting leave. Now in the United States, all of your leave comes from the company. In these areas, the leave is partially compensated by a government organization. So if you take the longest that we saw was 24 months of total family leave, and that leave could be used by either parent, either during or after the pregnancy, and and there was no expiration date. So imagine in the states, you can't even fathom that. The longest publicly traded company that we have found in the United States is 18 weeks. And that's good. That's better for our area.

Matthew Morris [00:16:44]: But the question that we continue to ask is if you are trying to advocate for employees to come back and remain loyal, what are the things that you're doing to incentivize them? And what stands out more than anything is companies that that advocate for more family recovery time. And that's the biggest difference that we've seen from overseas to the states.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:08]: I appreciate you sharing that. And now that you I have transitioned into being a dad, a dad of a daughter, I talk to a lot of dads that step into fatherhood. And fatherhoods can be scary just in its own right in being able to step into that new persona and being able to be there for your child. I hear from a lot of dads with daughters that there's a particular fear of being a father to a daughter. And I guess for you, what's your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?

Matthew Morris [00:17:38]: That when she comes of age, she will come to me and say, father, I am not prepared to go out on my own. And that encompasses a lot. And when I say come of age, there's not a number that's associated with it. She might be ready to set out on her own at 13. She might not be ready to set out on her own until she's 20. Her development is going to happen on its own timeline. My responsibility as a dad is to hold her hand until it's time to let go. And when it's time to let go, I have to have given her every ounce of me so that she's ready.

Matthew Morris [00:18:20]: Does that mean that it's gonna be smooth sailing and she's gonna have no trials of her own, and she's never gonna be in a situation where she has to fight for herself or for the other people that she loves and believes in? Absolutely not. But when it's time for her to fight, she is ready.

Christopher Lewis [00:18:37]: That's fair. Now as I mentioned, you have put together this book, this book that you're putting out into the world to be able to help other dads, the partner's purpose during pregnancy. Talk to me about that and why you decided that you wanted to take the time to be able to put all of this learning into this, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take out of it?

Matthew Morris [00:18:57]: Joshua Sharfstein (zero zero four:fifty seven): I put the partner's purpose during pregnancy together. Number 1, it was my personal way of processing. So on the fortunate side of being unemployed for that period of time, it gave me the head space to sit down and start asking really hard questions, to start reading the books. Right? I read all of them. I read what to expect when you're expecting, the birth partner, bumpin', misconceptions, the Mayo Clinic's guide to pregnancy. Oh, boy. Let me tell you. If, if you're looking for a captivating read, sit down and and pop that 600 pager open.

Matthew Morris [00:19:35]: But the reason that I did was I treated Shannon's pregnancy and the birth of my daughter as my new mission. When we would fly in the marine corps, you would prep for sometimes weeks for one specific mission. And you would begin building that knowledge base of the operating area, the weapon systems that you were going to employ, the teammates that you were going to be fighting with and supporting, and the enemy that had a say in every action that you made, well, this was my new mission. And for me to process the intensity of watching Shannon's body change, watching her mindset on things change, I had to have an outlet. And my outlet was putting a pen to paper because when I was asking some of these questions from the point of view of an expecting dad, there were no answers. And fortunately, there is now a culture shift in the United States away from the way that our dads were were kinda forced into it. And what I mean by that is I have a very loving and supportive father. Shannon has a very loving and supporting father, but there was no such thing as dad being there after the baby was born.

Matthew Morris [00:21:00]: Took mom to the hospital, baby was born, and 2, 3 days later, dad's back at work. And that's just the way it was. Well, now one of the positives from COVID is the acknowledgment of remote work and the fact that so many jobs can be done from home, which allows you the opportunity to be in proximity to your kids for a longer period of time. And with Partner's Purpose, our mission is to show that you can have a faster postpartum recovery period. You can reduce postpartum depression and other maternal mental health situations if you start being involved and educated way before baby comes. And the other piece is the books that I listed, they have a place on my bookshelves, and I'm not saying that if you are in this phase of birth not to go study them. Go. Do it.

Matthew Morris [00:22:42]: And it's practical. It's not theoretical. It's not big universe things. It's tangible. It's make your birth plan together. It's read out loud to your baby before you go to sleep. It's make her a sandwich. It's let her cry.

Matthew Morris [00:23:00]: It's these things that when you're in a stressful situation or sorry. When you're in a a calm situation, it's like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But pregnancy is stressful for both parties involved. And so when we can lay out, do this, do this, do this, I am taking that thought out and replacing it with very basic, simple muscle memory. It's just like training. Marine Corps, you do rifle training. You learn every single in and out aspect of your weapon so that when you are in an extremely high stress environment, you don't have to stop and think, wait, hang on.

Matthew Morris [00:23:40]: How do I take it off safety? How do I aim? No. You can be running on 36 hours of no sleep and half a stale piece of bread, and you still know how to make your weapon function when you need it to function. Maybe not that extreme in the average American pregnancy, but the concepts are the same. If I can lay your steps out for you, if I can show you ways to be involved, then all you have to do is pick it up, open it to any page and say, I know how to filter your feed. It's one of the other notes. I know how to invest in our education so that we can develop informed opinions, so that we can build our birth team together. So that if the doctor or the midwife or the doula or the nurse practitioner tells us we have to do something, we know what that means, and we can ask questions on if we really do have to do that or, and this is my favorite, we've always done it that way, so that's why we do it. Well, just because something has always been done does not necessarily mean it's the right way.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Matthew Morris [00:24:56]: Yes, sir. Let's do it.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:57]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Matthew Morris [00:24:59]: Exciting.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:00]: Let's think down the road, 18, 20 years. If I was to talk to your daughter, how would you want her to describe you?

Matthew Morris [00:25:06]: Empowering and encouraging. I want her to, at no point, ever question if I have her back. I also acknowledge that probably is going to mean there are going to be moments where she is pissed at the decisions that I make. But if I've set her up for success to take on the world whatever way she chooses to take it on, then good. I have done my job.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Matthew Morris [00:25:33]: My wife holds me accountable for being a better dad. My daughter inspires me to be a better dad.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]: Now you've given a bunch of pieces of advice today, things that you've learned so far. You've got more to learn as well as your daughter gets older. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Matthew Morris [00:25:51]: Don't ever let your kindness be mistaken for weakness. You have now entered into a world where you have something that is precious, especially if you have a daughter. And my baby is only 6 months old and I see this with strangers. They will come up to her and she is beautiful, and cute, and bubbly, and engaging, and interacting. And the first thing they wanna do is reach out and squeeze her. That is not an acceptable course of action for anyone to attempt to physically touch my infant daughter without my express consent. Basically, if I don't give you permission to give her a hug, to grab her arm, to grab her cheek, you doing that is a violation of her personal space, and you might get smacked. If I don't get you, her mom will.

Matthew Morris [00:26:50]: And as a dad, it does not matter what your culture is. It does not matter what your background is. It does not matter what other people tell you. You protect what is yours the best way that you believe it to be. And don't ever doubt yourself for doing the thing that you believe is in the best interest of your daughter.

Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]: Now if people wanna find out more about you, your book, and more about what you're doing next, where's the best place for them to go?

Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

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In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the special guest Markus Wolf opened up about his experiences as a father to two daughters. Markus shared valuable insights into the multi-faceted journey of fatherhood, touching on themes ranging from emotional intelligence to the importance of male connections. Here, we delve deeper into the key topics from their enlightening conversation.

The Joy and Fear of Knowing You'll be a Dad The Initial Ecstasy

When Markus found out he was going to be a father, the joy was immediate. "I was ecstatic," he said, reflecting on that transformative moment. Unlike some men who may be taken by surprise or even ambivalence at the prospect of fatherhood, Markus had known from a young age that he wanted to be a dad. He even felt that having daughters was a form of karmic balance, avoiding the potential rebelliousness he feared from having a son.

The Inherent Fears

Despite his enthusiasm, Markus admitted that the journey of fatherhood comes with its own set of anxieties. One of his biggest concerns has always been about maintaining open lines of communication. He emphasized that building a home where his daughters feel safe to express themselves emotionally is crucial, yet challenging. This desire for transparent communication stemmed from his own struggles with emotional intelligence, something he recognized needed constant work.

Crafting Unique Relationships with Each Child Individual Awareness

One of the critical parenting strategies Markus highlighted was the importance of recognizing the distinct personalities of each child. For example, his daughter Madison is a "fireball," prone to expressing herself loudly, while Sienna tends to close off and become quiet. Understanding these differences has allowed Markus to tailor his parenting approach, ensuring that he meets each daughter's emotional needs effectively.

Skill Development Through Coaching Techniques

Drawing from his career as a fitness coach, Markus has seamlessly integrated coaching principles into his parenting. He speaks of a "confidence model" where he gradually builds his daughters' skill sets in a manner that empowers them. Much like his clients who increasingly master fitness routines, his children too are slowly being endowed with various life skills. Whether it's making breakfast or picking up their toys, these seemingly mundane tasks are steps toward building a well-rounded individual.

Balancing Emotions and Strengthening Connections Managing Temperaments

Markus is candid about one of his personal challenges—being a bit of a "hothead." He regularly finds himself working on temper control to avoid alienating his daughters. For Markus, being in a better emotional state often involves engaging in physical activity and maintaining connections with other men. These practices help him manage stress better, creating a more harmonious home environment.

The Role of Male Connections

The COVID-19 pandemic brought to light an essential aspect of Markus's life—male interaction. Prior to the outbreak, he found much-needed camaraderie in his daily interactions with clients and friends. The pandemic made him realize how vital these connections were for his mental well-being. According to Markus, this communication acts as a stress-relief mechanism, enabling him to return home balanced and prepared for fatherhood duties.

The Mentor and Coach Pivot Incorporating Coaching into Parenting

Markus describes his approach as "Miyagi-ing" his kids, reminiscent of the lessons from "The Karate Kid." By embedding valuable life skills subtly into daily routines, he's preparing his daughters for the real world without them even realizing it. This stealth approach to skill-building enables Markus to parent effectively, ensuring his daughters are ready for life's challenges while maintaining a supportive relationship.

Role Models and Inspirations

He also spoke about the crucial need for every man to retain some level of selfishness, not in a negative sense, but in terms of self-care. By maintaining his own well-being, Markus not only becomes a better father but also a better role model. The "loneliness epidemic" among men is something Markus is keenly aware of, actively working to combat it through his practice of connecting with other fathers and men.

The Imperfect Yet Rewarding Journey of Fatherhood

Markus Wolf's journey through fatherhood is not about being perfect; it's about being present and continuously striving for improvement. He emphasizes that fatherhood is a blessing that requires a balanced approach—recognizing individual needs, maintaining personal well-being, and building strong, open relationships. Markus's story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its challenges, is an evolving adventure, filled with moments of joy, learning, and profound love.

For more insights and advice on fatherhood, join the "Dads with Daughters" community and explore resources that could make your parenting journey a little smoother.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have these conversations with you where we are walking on this path together, where you and I are working to raise our daughters in the best way that we know how. And the most important thing that everyone needs to understand, no matter if you have 1 daughter, 2 daughters, 7 daughters, doesn't matter, is that we don't have to do this alone. And every week I love being able to have a conversation with you, to walk with you as we are walking down this path together, as I said, But knowing that, we don't all know everything. There is not the there is not one right way to father, and there's not one playbook to follow. So it is important for us to be able to learn from others, find other resources, find more tools for our toolbox that we can pull from to be able to be the best dads that we want to be that will help our daughters to be the women that they want to be in the future. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences, that are walking this path alongside of you and are doing things maybe in a little bit different way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: But that's okay because we can learn and grow from all of their experiences as well. And this week, we have another great guest with us today. Markus Wolf is with us today. And Markus is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his experiences with us. Markus, thanks so much for being here today.

Markus Wolf [00:01:56]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]: It is my pleasure. Love having you here today. 1st and foremost, question I always start off with. I love being able to have the power to turn the clock back in time. I know you have 2 daughters. So So I wanna go back to that first moment. That first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Markus Wolf [00:02:13]: I was ecstatic. I really was. I knew I wanted to be a dad since I was very young, which some dads never expect to have a child. Some of them never even wanted to have a child and I knew it. I knew it since I was in grade school. I was like, it was part of the vision. I'm going to be a father. So when it happened, it was just kind of I knew I was with the right woman.

Markus Wolf [00:02:32]: I knew everything was just pieced together perfectly. So I was really, really excited, especially girl for some reason. I think, I was pretty tough as a son, and I just didn't want the payback that my father got. So it was kinda nice to just know that I was like, okay. Great. I only have to deal with a a daughter and then I got a second one. So that was like, okay. Never gonna deal with a son.

Markus Wolf [00:02:51]: Nothing wrong with having sons, of course.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]: So you said you always knew that you wanted to be a father. Talk to me about that. What was it about being a father that really, I'm gonna say intrigued you or made you want to be a father yourself? You know,

Markus Wolf [00:03:06]: Chris, it's kinda hard to explain. Right? It just some kids grow up and they wanna be firefighters. They wanna be doctors. And then some of them fulfill that that vision. And it was just part of the process of, like, what I pictured myself. I said to myself, I wanted the white picket fence house. I wanted kids. I wanted that lifestyle.

Markus Wolf [00:03:23]: So I'm not really sure how to even explain it. It was just something that I knew that I desired.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:27]: I talked to a lot of different dads. A lot of different dads tell me that walking into fatherhood is a bit scary. There's some fear that goes along with being a dad. A lot of it comes back to the fact that there's no playbook to really follow that outside of the mentoring or what you've seen in your life. As you look at the experiences that you've had thus far as a father, what's been your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Markus Wolf [00:03:50]: Communication is something you really want. It's one of the hardest things when it comes to parenting. And the the again, part of what I always pictured was my children were gonna always be able to come to me for support and to open up emotionally. And then I realized really quickly, and I think kids do this, relationships do this as well. They expose what you haven't been working on. And I wasn't working on my emotional intelligence. I mean, God bless my wife, Lindsay, for even, like, always just putting up with my, you know, I'm very like, you could call it passionate, but I usually just call it hot tempered. And when you have children again, they're not going to want to come to a human being who just doesn't know how to sit there and and, you know, understand where they're coming from and really be able to just not try to, you know, do the manly thing of just fixing their scenario.

Markus Wolf [00:04:38]: So that's the one thing I'm always afraid of. I just want them to not feel like they're ever afraid to come to me to be, I need support with X, Y, and Z. And then, because perhaps I'm not showing the greatest of light, they don't come to me. That'd be the, the, probably the worst thing because they, I don't know. I mean, I feel like I've always valued having mentors and I don't need to be their top mentor, but I would like to be someone that could come to.

Markus Wolf [00:04:59]: And I'm definitely gonna be following back up with that on the mentorship piece because I think that that's something that you are incorporating into your fatherhood and I wanna delve a little bit deeper into that. But before I do, I wanna ask you a little bit about when you raise children, it's not always easy. There are ups, downs, sideways, everything in between. And there are good days, there are bad days, there are you know what I mean. So, what has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?

Markus Wolf [00:05:29]: I mean, you kind of said it. I'm very regimented. It's just the way I can handle the toughness of life, if you want to say. And things have to be put in place so perfectly. And that's not parenting. And that's even different when you have 2 different children that have different requirements, different skill sets. I've tried with one of them will work on a Monday and then it won't work on a Tuesday and it's incredibly frustrating. And then again, yeah, it's a constant roller coaster.

Markus Wolf [00:05:53]: That's probably the toughest part because it would be so great if they just did exactly what I asked them to do all the time, but they don't. So it's probably that constant battle I have to have with myself to just slow it down and not desire so much. It's just, like, let it go type of thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]: Now you talk just talked about the fact that what works with one child may not work with the other. And every child is is different and the personalities are different. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters that may be different from each other. Oh, I

Markus Wolf [00:06:28]: mean, first, yeah, you have to almost understand what their qualities are, right? I mean, I have my oldest daughter Madison, who she's just a fireball. So she'll rather yell, she'll scream. So she'll still voice her and she'll still communicate with words. And then you obviously have to, you know, deal with that. You just have to try to, like, bring the person bring Madison down a little bit. With my other daughter, Sienna, she just closes off. Like, she doesn't use words. She gets really quiet.

Markus Wolf [00:06:52]: So then you're always just trying to figure out, well, now I know that this one is up and you gotta bring this one down to balance and the other one's a little bit down and you gotta bring it down. So that's been the first one. It's just being aware of how they respond to certain type of emotions. And then when you understand it, then you're like, okay, cool. Now what do I have in my tool belt to to bring one down and bring the other one up?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: Now you talked about that sometimes you can be a little bit of a hothead and you have to temper that. As you said, you don't want your children to be afraid to come to you because of that. How have you had to work on that to be able to get to a point where either you're in the right space or that you've had to had those conversations with your daughters, and you might not have had to have them yet with them so that they understand. But how have you been able to realign yourself in being a father and knowing that your emotions may be a little bit more heated and you have to be able to adjust for that.

Markus Wolf [00:07:50]: I'm in fitness. I'm in health. And for me, I believe it's always about putting yourself into like a better state. So if you're like energetic, the stress is relieved. So usually, I think most dads can agree that the milk spilled on the floor is not why you had this huge yelling outburst or the TV not being shut off when you asked for it to be shut off is not really why you're you're yelling. Because if you really put things into perspective, you're like, okay. Am I really gonna get mad at this at a child for not shutting off the TV? Or am I mad because there's a whole bunch of other things I'm incredibly stressed out about that I hadn't just, you know, worked through. So for me, I have to always put myself into a state.

Markus Wolf [00:08:26]: And one of them that I've really worked on for the last 2 years is I have to have a male connection at least once a week. That is like a mandatory and it's worked fabulously because once I do it, I come back and I'm I could recognize myself being like, oh, okay. So I think it was just because I needed a little bit of like stress relief. So I mean, obviously stress stress relief can look different for so many other men, but that has been the one that just brings me to the state that I need to be for parenting, if that makes sense.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:52]: It does. And now you talked about the fact that you are a mentor, but you're also a coach. You are and you're incorporating some of those things that you've been doing in your own business as a fitness coach, as a coach in general into your parenting. So talk to me about how you've been able to pivot that in being able to do what you're doing with clients and trying to incorporate that into the work that you're doing in trying to be the father that you want to be?

Markus Wolf [00:09:29]: I stumbled upon this. It must have been just almost like an epiphany. I was just obviously I was coaching a lot of men and parenting every single day. And then I started to realize there's something there where the ultimate goal, I believe this is my parent and style. I don't know if this is all fathers is my job is to set them up for the world, right? And the more skill sets I give them, the more, like, you know, let's say even like the emotional intelligence skills around the house. All these like little things are foundational tools that you do for clients. Like clients, they need to have foundational tools to get food prepared so they could eat healthier meals. They could go outside and prioritize themselves.

Markus Wolf [00:10:08]: So there's there's very much I tried to work in. What is the process number 1 for this child? I mean, where are we at? Like, you know, at 3 years old, they could barely pick up many things. But at 4 years old, they can empty the dishes. At 5 years old, they can make their own breakfast, things like that. So I started to realize that my coaching style was always like that. It's kind of like a, I call it the confidence model where you take someone and you just, what is the one thing that could boost their confidence? But it's a very easy thing that they can do. And then each time you have to recognize what is the next thing they need to do to again move towards those skill sets that you were speaking of. So I've been doing it with my children.

Markus Wolf [00:10:42]: They're excellent at things around the house now without realizing that it wasn't, I'm asking, like, you know, it's not doesn't feel like a chore, I guess, I suppose you're saying. Because, again, I'm gonna use this great reference because I've been watching Cobra Kai for those past couple weeks, which is I Miyagi then. You know, it's mean I just and I do that with my clients. I Miyagi them to just suddenly have these skill sets and now they're like, oh my goodness. Now I'm like equipped for the world and I'm like, yes. I did what I needed to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:05]: Now even in Cobra Kai and Karate Kid, Daniel san ends up figuring out that he's getting Miyagi ed. So your kids are going to figure it out sometime. And they're probably going to be like, what the heck, dad? Why are you doing this? How are you gonna react?

Markus Wolf [00:11:19]: I might even just do what I just did right now. I might smile a little and just said, you know, this is this is what I'm I'm trying my best. I'm like, I'm trying my best. I have good intentions and I think sometimes that's, like, at least gives you half the pass. But, yeah, if I get exposed, I will get back to you and I'll let you know how I handle it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:34]: So talk to me about you talked earlier about the fact that you found within your own life that you need to have those connections with other men, other fathers, other individuals, so important for you. I don't like referencing COVID too much, just because there's, so important for you.

Markus Wolf [00:11:55]: I don't like referencing covid too much just because this feels like something you just want to put behind you. But it made me recognize that what I had in the past was like a third home. I had a place to go out and when I would personal trained before covid, I was interacting with 5, 10 people a day. And then when you go from 5, 10 to 0, you start to realize that that was something that was a requirement for you. You like being heard, you like hearing other people's stories. And then when you eliminate that, I started to replace my wife for that. So really, it was just get back that same outlets. And then then again, I I can't explain why it feels so good, but it was it was exactly what I just needed.

Markus Wolf [00:12:32]: I just need to talk to others and hear others and just get out and about.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: You know, I've come to find that some men are for some men, that is not an easy thing to do, to reconnect, to make those connections, to make those friendships, especially once we become adults. Don't seem to have problems usually when we're growing up. We make those connections. We have friendships. But as we get into our adulthood and we start focusing on family, profession, other things, the push for maintaining friendships, building friendships goes away. As someone that mentors others, that coaches others, why do you think that happens? And what have you done to be able to try to help other men to reconnect like you are?

Markus Wolf [00:13:16]: That's a really great point. You made me remember what it was like being with my father or being raised with my father and he had 0 friends. So I think that was already a glaring sign. And the first things that I feel like I recognize was I talk about that a lot with clients, even sometimes the very first interaction. I say to them that when we were younger, when we were men, it was 95% of our time were with other men. Locker room banter, playing video games, going outside, and you're pretty much just hanging out with men your whole entire life up until the point when you're dating the person that you're eventually gonna have children with and then get married. So for me, I personally just started to use I'm a meathead at heart, Chris, to be honest. So I just work out with men because it just seems to be a 2 birds with 1 stone type of scenario.

Markus Wolf [00:14:05]: And I think a lot of men can can connect with that. Maybe it's not working out. Maybe it's, hey. I'm gonna go join a softball team, and that might even just be enough to do the thing.

Markus Wolf [00:14:14]: No, it does. And I think that it's important to understand that. That's one of the reasons why in fathering together, we develop the online communities that we have, but we also have in person opportunities for dads to connect with other dads and be able to open up opportunities for men to be able to connect, connect with their kids, connect with each other because connection is so important. But we, as I said, sometimes forget about that and focus so much on other aspects that leads to the prevalence of loneliness. And you'll see lots of studies that are out there right now that talk about the pervasiveness of loneliness in malehood right now. And most men don't wanna talk about it, and they just wanna kind of push it down and keep pushing forward because that's what we do. We push through, right? So it's not an easy thing to deal with, but it's also important to for us to deal with because if we don't, our kids are watching and our kids will also identify and see what's happening. So one of the questions that I have, I guess, is this because you work with a lot of dads and men in the coaching that you do through fitness, through life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]: What are some of the biggest challenges that some of these men that are coming to you, working with you right now are dealing with? And are you seeing commonalities amongst them?

Markus Wolf [00:15:41]: 100%. I feel like at this point, because I've worked with 100 and it's just patterns. And usually the one pattern that I'm noticing a lot is the values they have are outside of themselves. So it's never a bad thing to provide. That's one of a very important role you're supposed to do as a parent, as an adult. But I couldn't understand that because I'll admit it, I was quite selfish in my twenties, which kind of prepared me for how to, you know, be successful in fitness. But their line in what it does, it prioritizes self, it prioritizes if your energy is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it. If your stress management is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it.

Markus Wolf [00:16:21]: And most of the men I work with, and this is what I fear for my kids, is, like, they don't prioritize themselves. They prioritize appeasing work, their boss, wife. You gotta keep your wife happy, but she's in control of her own happiness. In my personal opinion, that if you're not in control of yours, that's probably a big, big issue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:40]: For those men that you're working with that have a hard time identifying those priorities, because sometimes men do. Sometimes they are floundering a bit and there are individuals that are listening right now that may be thinking, I just don't know where to start. Where should they start?

Markus Wolf [00:16:55]: Using that same model that I spoke about, it's usually the easiest route is the first route. So even if it's just going for a walk and listening to an audiobook you've been wanting to listen to forever, It's probably a larger sense of accomplishment to some men than you would even believe. To others, it would be that's just a typical Monday morning. I go for a walk on the beach and I listen to an audiobook or something. But for them, some of these men, they they they just keep saying that they're going to do something. And that's that action, I believe, is already enough for them to, put forward towards where they need to go. And if you're already doing that again, what is the the thing that you keep holding off at? Because that's likely the thing that's gonna push you forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:33]: I appreciate you sharing that as well. Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Ready. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Markus Wolf [00:17:43]: It's a blessing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Markus Wolf [00:17:47]: I take my girls on a on a monthly date. And usually, on days where they finish school, you have to drag them out of the playground just to leave to go home. But on our monthly dates, they will run and they cannot wait to to join me. And I feel like that's they're looking forward to it. That's already a good sign.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]: Now your kids are still young, so they might not have a lot of answers for this. But if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Markus Wolf [00:18:09]: I think they totally answer it with, I'm the fun guy who tends to yell a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:14]: Now let's go at this point maybe 15 years down the road. What do you want them to say then?

Markus Wolf [00:18:19]: As long as they could say something, that's the man I trust, That's the man I I look up to. That's the man that I am looking to get him a partner like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Markus Wolf [00:18:27]: Ben, 100%.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:28]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Markus Wolf [00:18:34]: Choose your battles. If you're like me, you want like, I just told you, I I wanna add skill sets to them. I want them to have things to be better in the world, but it's not gonna happen overnight. So just sometimes let it go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]: And that's definitely not always easy.

Markus Wolf [00:18:48]: No. It's probably the toughest thing I've ever done in my life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]: Now, if people wanna find out more about you and what you're up to, where should they go?

Markus Wolf [00:18:55]: They can find me on Instagram, coach Markus Wolf, m a r k u s, Wolf, and drop a whole bunch of knowledge bombs if they want anything. And also just, again, resonance. So if you're a father and you're just looking to resonate with someone who's been holding on to healthy habits even with 2 children, just give me a call.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:10]: Well, Markus, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing what you've learned thus far, and I wish you all the best.

Markus Wolf [00:19:17]: Appreciate you, Chris. This was a pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:19]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:17]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fatherhood is a journey laden with challenges, triumphs, and a multitude of rewarding experiences. For some, it means rewriting the scripts handed down by previous generations and breaking stereotypes. Kevin Riley, a father of three, a Bronx councilman, author, and one of the founding members of "The Dad Gang," epitomizes this transformative journey. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, Kevin Riley shared his unique story, shedding light on his mission to redefine Black fatherhood and support other fathers in similar pursuits.

The Crucial First Steps: Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt

Fear as a Driving Force

When Kevin Riley found out he was going to be a father to his first daughter, Brooke, fear struck him. Having grown up without a father, he was acutely aware of what he lacked in terms of role models and guidance. Reflecting on those initial fears, Riley shared, "I was scared but also excited because it was a journey I could pour so much value into."

His primary concern was whether he was parenting the right way. Riley's transparency about his fears dismantles the myth of the all-knowing father. It is okay to be scared, okay to doubt — what matters is the desire to overcome these fears and become the best dad possible.

Balancing Responsibilities: The Art of Time Management

Striking a Balance in a Busy Life

Being a councilman often pulls Kevin Riley in different directions, demanding a delicate balance between public responsibilities and family life. "I bring my children everywhere," Riley explains. From community events to City Hall hearings, his children are often by his side, learning the ropes of civic engagement early on.

This unique approach serves dual purposes: it provides valuable bonding time and exposes his children to the concept of public service. Riley's method underscores the importance of integrating children into various aspects of life, making them active participants in their father's world.

Empowering Daughters: The Challenge and the Reward

Breaking Gender Norms

Kevin Riley emphasized the importance of empowering his daughters to pursue any career they desire, irrespective of societal expectations. He makes it a point to connect his daughters with powerful female leaders to illustrate that they can achieve the same heights as their male counterparts. "In a male-dominated society, you have to find creative ways to empower your daughters," Riley says.

The lesson here is that fatherhood extends beyond basic caregiving; it's about paving the way for your children to see themselves as capable and equal contributors to society.

Sharing the Journey: "Hop Into Life"

From Personal Experience to Published Author

Riley's book, "Hopping Through Life," co-authored with his children, is a heartfelt narrative aimed at demystifying the complexities of fatherhood. The inspiration stemmed from his own experiences and his nightly ritual of reading to his kids. "Be proud of the journey you've been through because it created the person you are today," Riley advises.

The book serves as a beacon for other fathers, particularly those who may have grown up without a father figure. It's a testament to overcoming obstacles and embracing the messy, yet beautiful, journey of parenting.

Community Building: The Dad Gang

Changing Stereotypes, One Dad at a Time

One of the most impactful initiatives Kevin Riley has been involved with is "The Dad Gang." Founded by Sean Williams, this organization was borne out of a single comment that stereotyped Black fathers. "We created this community online, but we really wanted to go deeper," Riley explains.

The Dad Gang hosts events like the "March of Dads," which feature public walks and community activities aimed at showcasing the active involvement of Black fathers. The group also organizes healing circles and interactive forums that provide emotional support and amplify the narratives of Black fatherhood.

Final Words: The All-Important Advice

Make Time, Always

As Kevin Riley beautifully puts it, "There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the time you could spend with your children." For dads feeling overwhelmed or questioning their readiness due to financial constraints, Riley offers the essential advice to prioritize time with their children over everything else. His advocacy for this critical aspect of fatherhood is both inspiring and actionable.

Through his roles as a councilman, author, and community leader, Kevin Riley is not just rewriting his own narrative — he's providing a new script for Black fatherhood, challenging stereotypes, and inspiring fathers everywhere to be the best they can be. His story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, above all, is a journey of love, patience, and unwavering commitment.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads With Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I'm on this journey with you. You and I are going along this journey to be the best dads that we can be. And the thing that I love is that you show up every week to be able to learn, to grow, to hear from other fathers, hear from other people about the journeys that they've been on, and some of the resources that they've been able to either create, provide, or just the experiences that they've had that can give you some context, give you some ideas about things that you can do to be able to better engage with your daughters or just be there and just be able to be the best dad that you can be and help them in the journey that they're on as they're moving into womanhood. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that come to fatherhood just like you and I, without a lot of resources, without a lot of ideas, because there's no one right way to father. However, we can learn from each other. We can learn from so many others to be able to be that better father that we wanna be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: Today, we got another great guest with us today. Kevin Riley is a father of 3. He is a district 12 Bronx councilman and a soon to be published author and founding member of the dad gang. And we're gonna be talking to him about his own journey, about being a dad of 2 daughters and a son, but also some of the we'll talk about his new book. We'll talk about a little bit of a lot of things to be able to get some of his own perspectives. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today.

Kevin Riley [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis. How are you doing today?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: I really appreciate you being here. And I always love starting this these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 2 daughters. You got a 9 and a 5 year old. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 10 years. Maybe it's 9 years. Never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: But I wanna go back to the very beginning. I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you're going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Kevin Riley [00:02:36]: I was scared. I think I was truly scared finding out that my at that time, my fiance was pregnant. She's my wife now. Pregnant with our first daughter, Brooke. Really scared because at that time, you know, I didn't grow up with a father. So as you stated before, we're trying to learn fatherhood techniques, we're trying to learn different tips, we're trying to learn different situations that may, you know, come about within our children's lives from each other. It's so important that we create these communities because at that time I didn't know. I I was really truly scared, but I did know that I wanted to be the best father possible.

Kevin Riley [00:03:09]: I know that at minimal. I knew I wanted to be the best father possible. So I would say 10 years ago, man, when I find out or 9 years ago, when I found out that Brooke was gonna be more, I was scared, but I was really excited too because it was a journey that I felt that I can, give so much back and pour so much value

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]: back to school. You just said that you were scared. And I think a lot of dads are scared to step into fatherhood, let alone being a father to a daughter. And there's some fear that goes into that. As you've gone through these 9 years with your oldest daughter and your other kids as well, what's been your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Riley [00:03:46]: I think my biggest fear, and I'm a be totally transparent with you, making sure that I'm parented the right way. There's no manual into being a father. There's no manual into being a dad. There's no right way of doing things all the time, and I think really there are times when even I'm communicating with my daughter, my daughter's trying to communicate with me or even show affection. I mean, I may be busy as you stated, I'm a I'm a New York City council member, so my job is very, very busy a lot of the times, So I won't be as available to my daughter as much as I will possibly wanna be available to her. So you kinda get that fear of, hey. Am I doing this the right way? Is my daughter going to find love outside of her father because she felt like she didn't get that male love from her father, because he wasn't there for her as much as possible. And then once I was able to kind of fight those different thoughts within myself, I was able to apply, what I wanted to be, because I think it's the fear.

Kevin Riley [00:04:40]: The fear always puts doubt within yourself. Then if you really open your eyes, I was always available at her doctor's appointments, I was always going to her shows, I was always showing up for everything for my children. It puts that doubt aside because we have fear, especially when you grow up, and like I stated, I grew up without a father. So that fear of, hey. I didn't get the blueprint. I don't know how a father is supposed to deal with this with their child. I think after I got off that fear and that doubt, I was able to be the best father that I'm actually doing a really pretty good job.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]: That being a councilman, you have a busy life, and you're pulled in a lot of different directions. Being an elected person in an elected office definitely is something that puts you into the limelight in many aspects. People get to know you. And sometimes your kids don't get that in regard to being that public figure in that way. And they don't always understand that you have to be away to be able to build them the life that they are accustomed to. So talk to me about that in regards to balance because I think that so many fathers have to try to balance their work life, their or or professional life, their personal life, and trying to find what that perfect balance is to be able to show up and to be able to be in the lives of their kids the way that they wanna be. How have you been able to do that? Have you struggled with it? What have you done to be able to get better at it?

Kevin Riley [00:06:10]: Yeah. I think I touched, a little bit about that with the fear and the doubt, but then you you mentioned something balance and time management. I am a person that if you know me and the way I govern, I bring my children everywhere. So my children actually attend community events for me. My children actually attend meetings for me. I'll even bring my children to city hall at hearings sometimes because I think it's very important for them to see exactly what their father does and important for them to be civically engaged as well. I'm trying to teach civics to my children at a very, very early age. You do understand that within our country, you know, a lot of children don't get the accessibility or the access to learn about how government truly works.

Kevin Riley [00:06:46]: So I get I think my children are seeing that on a day to day basis, and they understand what their father is or what their father contributes, to their community. I do a lot of work with giving back to my community and my children realize that and they really appreciate that. So I think, time management is really important. I have a luxury of bringing my children to work. A lot of fathers don't have the luxury of bringing their children to work. But even if you don't have the luxury of bringing your children to work, I think time management is very important. Even if you take a hour, 2 hours, that's why you go we came out with this book and we're writing this book and I know we're gonna touch on that a little bit later. But just doing activity with your child, reading to your children, going out and playing with your children.

Kevin Riley [00:07:26]: We can make time. There's 24 hours in the day. There's always time that you can make to engage with your children and I realized that with time management, I may not have the opportunity to sit down and watch cartoons all day with my children. But in the morning time, when I'm getting them ready for school, engaging, communicating with them, and conversing with them, in the evening time, making sure that I shut my phone calls off at a certain period of time, and I'm able to sit down with my children, you know, watch a TV show, catch up with them, have some dinner with them, things of that nature. I think time management is crucial

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:58]: It truly is. For your father. Now one of the things that I wanted to go back to, you were talking about fear and raising daughters. And raising kids is not always easy. There's ups. There's downs. There's every which way. And sometimes days are good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:11]: Sometimes they may not be. So it can be difficult at times as well. What's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Riley [00:08:18]: I think the hardest part of being a father to a daughter is being able to empower them to do whatever they wanna do within their life. Coming from a male and my wife does an amazing job with empowering our daughters. But coming from their father as a man, they see me doing a lot of amazing dope things, and I don't want them to feel like only men can do this. I try to empower them, and I try to be equalizers to them and let them know, like, hey. As I'm doing this, there's powerful leaders out there doing this as well, so I think it's very important, especially in my field. I always try to connect my daughters to very powerful women leaders alongside with them. Their mother has a very powerful position as well, but other powerful leaders out there who are women and who are doing a lot of dope amazing things, because I want them to feel like this is not male driven. You know, their father, they see the dope things their father is doing all the time.

Kevin Riley [00:09:07]: They see their father's always on television all the time, but they also see the Bronx borough president who's the 1st black woman to hold that position. She does amazing things, and when we go to events, they're able to connect with her on real time, and they're able to talk to her, ask her questions. So I think that has been the challenge as a dad with raising daughters because I think in a male dominant society, you really try to find creative ways to empower them and let them know that they could do the same thing that you could do even though it's a male dominant.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:36]: You mentioned that you've got a new book coming out called Popping Through Life. And I know that in that book, you are trying to really remind families that family is not just about blood relations or focusing on what it means to focusing on what we may lack in our lives. So I wanna go back to the beginning as you have created this story. As as an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion have to go into the creation of these pieces that are being put out into the world. What made you decide that you wanted to be an author, and what made you decide that this was the topic for kids that you wanted to talk about?

Kevin Riley [00:10:15]: I've always been passionate about expressing my story to individuals. Growing up, my father and my mother migrated to America from Jamaica, and unfortunately, my father, he was incarcerated when we were younger, and I used to always visit him when he was in the criminal justice system. And that's why I thought I was actually going. So that's why when my daughter was born in 2015 and now me being a council member, you can see that was a total different change, you know, in direction in life, and I believe my father did the best that he possibly could. We have a great relationship today. You know, we stay connected as much as possible, and I really strongly feel that the storyline came from me expressing where the challenges that I grew up with, where that came through, and it's really much just hopping through life, like, getting through getting by. I feel a lot of us feel like we're just getting by through life a lot of times, and once I have my daughter in 2015 and I'm learning, then I have my other daughter in 2019, and then my son came in 2022, it's like I learned different things at with each child, and I'm hopping through this thing we call parent look. It's something that I do with my children every single night as I read to my children.

Kevin Riley [00:11:22]: Something in New York City and and throughout the nation, we're trying to promote literacy to our children, so I think it's crucially and truly important as parents that you read to your children as much as possible and have your children read back to you as much as possible. But as we were reading these stories and every time I'm reading the story, I'm always reading the author and the illustration illustrator out to the story. And my daughter said one day, like, hey, dad would love if one day we could tell our story. And when she said that, I'm like, wow. That really struck me because as a council member, I'm always verbal. I'm always giving speeches about my story, but I've never written my story down, and I wanted to write it in a sense where a father who has experienced the same things that I've experienced growing up and their their journey of fatherhood and them kind of hopping, they can actually read the story to their children so their children could actually understand as well, like, hey, your father's not perfect. Your father there wasn't a machine that was created. It was just dad.

Kevin Riley [00:12:16]: Here's a dad. Here's a mom. Your father has been through stuff. Your father has trauma in their life. Your father is healing. Your father is learning different things, and they are just getting through life the same way that you're getting through life as a child. Our child learned to crawl, then walk, then then then read, then then go to school on their own. They learn different things, and you continue to learn.

Kevin Riley [00:12:36]: Learning doesn't stop when you graduate school. Learning continues throughout life, so I think that's where the journey of the book came from. It it's about me telling my story, but also about me giving a platform for fathers who experience things like me. There's a lot of tons of fathers out there who didn't have a father figure in their life, and they're going into this journey of fatherhood. They can actually read a story to their children that could kind of outline that. And we utilize character of a bunny because bunnies are really popular with children, Bugs Bunny. Bunnies are really, really popular with children as an animal, and they're energized. Bunnies are really energized, and that's what we feel like fathers should be in their children's lives.

Kevin Riley [00:13:13]: They should be their children's Energizer Bunny. They should energize their children to make sure that they're going out and being the best of their ability. So that's where the book and the journey of the book came from, and I'm really excited that we're releasing it on September 6th on National Reader Book Day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:27]: So you're telling your story, and you're sharing that with the masses. What are you hoping that people are going to take from reading this for themselves and reading to their children?

Kevin Riley [00:13:39]: Be proud of the journey that you've been through because the journey that you've been through created the person that you are today, and we shouldn't always shun away from it. I know sometimes people are kind of embarrassed of their upbringing. They're embarrassed of the trauma that they experience through their life, but I think they should kind of look at the good out of that because it made them into a very resilient person. It made them into a very strong person that's able to conquer any challenges that they may embark on, you know, moving forward. And hopping through life really engages and showcases that even though you may have had trauma throughout your life, you could still be a great dad. Even though you may not had a father when you were younger, you could still be a great dad. And also to be sympathetic, you don't know what your father went through. Your father had a father.

Kevin Riley [00:14:23]: Your father's father had a father. There has been lineage of fatherhood that's been happening throughout generations, and there's no manual. I think a lot of times when we think of parents, we always circle and and focus on mothers all the time, but fathers are as important as mothers as well. I think fathers don't know that. I know in New York City, I passed a resolution that made June in New York City fatherhood recognition month because we want to recognize fathers throughout the entire month of June. But not only do that, the whole goal is to create centers for fathers. We partner with organizations like the Real Dads Network. I have an organization that I know I'm gonna we're gonna talk about soon, the dad gang, but we really want to create these fatherhood centers that provide resources for fathers to really flourish, that will help fathers find jobs, help fathers connect with their children emotionally.

Kevin Riley [00:15:11]: I think fathers, even men, we've been taught to be really, really masculine at times and not really be really comprehensive, really understand our feelings, really be emotionally connected, to our emotional feelings, so we can emotionally connect with our children and understand that. So I think that's why I want people to get from this book. I want people to really understand that, hey, even though you did have a journey that brought you to this day, you should embrace it, and you should really know that it made you into the strong, resilient person that you are in today's society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:44]: Now you talked about the organization that you are a part of and that you founded called Dad Gang. Talk to me about Dad Gang, why you decided to start it, what its goals are, and what you're hoping that people are going to take away from being a part of it.

Kevin Riley [00:16:00]: So when you talk about fatherhood, one negative aspect and negative stereotype about fatherhood is black fathers aren't involved in their children's lives. So when we started the Dag Gang, the Dag Gang, Sean Williams, who's the founder of the Dag Gang, who's our fraternity brother, Kappa Alpha Paternity Incorporated. He started the Dag Gang, in 2015 when he had his second daughter, and he was in the supermarket with his child, and, a white woman had said to him, I'm glad you stuck around. It's good that you stuck around. And he was really offended by that comment, but he's like, I know tons of fathers out there that are involved in their children's lives. So we first, we got together and at that time, that's when social media really started picking up. You had Instagram, you had Twitter, you had all these different platforms that people are really looking at people lives on a device. So we want to put out as much positive imagery and visions of black fatherhood.

Kevin Riley [00:16:53]: We didn't realize we are creating a community of black fathers that were coming to this page, seeing all the dope black fathers out there, connecting with those fathers because we would add put their username there, connecting with them because they were from their city and towns, and really building this market that, hey. You might have a father like I have, at that time, my daughter, at the time between 2015 and 2018, she just turned 3 at that time. I could connect with a brother who has a 10 year old. So they have a 10 year old daughter. So I know between 3 10 year old what are certain things I should be doing, certain things I should be saying, certain things I should not be doing. It creates this kinda community, so we created this community online, but we really want to go a little bit deeper. So we started to do events where we organize and mobilize in different states, and we do something called the March of Dads. So it started off with calling strolling with the homies, but we changed the name to the March of Dads because we wanted to go to landmarks in different places.

Kevin Riley [00:17:46]: So for instance, we went to in New York City, we go to Prospect. In New York City, we just did the Bronx Children's Museum. In Atlanta, we did Ponce City Market. In DC, we marched by the White House, and we wanted to go to landmarks and showcase, and you just see a whole bunch of Black fathers, fathers of color, walking together with strollers, carry ons, older children, grandfathers, fathers. You just see that image and it showcases to you that black fathers are really engaged. But not only do we do that, we host a bunch of conversations and talks. So we do healing circles where we call it the dad house, where we have fathers, just fathers, just speaking. Because sometimes we feel like there's no place for us to just speak and just express how we feel.

Kevin Riley [00:18:28]: As men, I go back to the masculinity. We're always taught that we're not supposed to show emotions. We're supposed to figure things out, just kinda go through life and just figure things out. Be tough about things, and that continues to just break us down. And then we get to a point where we break down, and that healing process is so challenging. I read a book called Battle Cry by Jason Wilson. Amazing book, where he talked about that, that we focus so much on the masculinity part about manhood, which is important, but we need to also talk about emotions and the comprehensive part about being the man as well. So the dad game, we really formulated this organization to be a a nest, a safe haven for fathers of color out there to showcase that we are present.

Kevin Riley [00:19:10]: We do tons of different other activities. We hand out strollers, diapers, things of that nature in different parts of the city and the, the nation. We're in different parts. We do stuff in LA, DC, Atlanta, where we're branching out to different parts as well, but it's really organization. Tap in. It's the dadgang.com, or you can follow us on the dad gang on any platform.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:32]: I love the concept. I love the idea. As a global organization, it is definitely something that's needed to be able to as you kind of were talking about in the sense of redefining fatherhood and redefining black fatherhood or or the masses and to show that what the founder heard in the grocery store is not accurate and it is definitely not something that should be perpetuated. So I appreciate all the work that the organization's doing to engage dads in so many ways. There are so many opportunities for dads to be able to come together. This is one great way to be able to do that. And I encourage people to check out The Dad Gang at the dad gang.com to be able to learn more about their events, their activities, and how you can get involved as well. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: Are you ready? In one word, what is fatherhood?

Kevin Riley [00:20:30]: Love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: When was a time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Riley [00:20:36]: The completion of Hop Into LifeBook.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:38]: If I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Kevin Riley [00:20:41]: Mister Clean.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]: What about 10 years from now? What do you want them to say?

Kevin Riley [00:20:46]: My dad is my best friend.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kevin Riley [00:20:49]: My children.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Kevin Riley [00:20:58]: Make time to be with your children. There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the amount of time you could spend with your children. I talk to a ton of people out there who are interested in becoming a father and they and they always say to me like, 'hey, I just think I'm not financially ready yet.' Yes, having a child can be very expensive, but in the same sense it's more expensive when you're not spending time with your children. Because the time that you're missing with your children is something you can never make up. So I always give the advice to every dad out there, make time to be around your children, whether if it's an hour a day, whatever the time is, just make time so you could truly just connect with them and so you can just see how dope you are and just really showcase your love that you have for them. If the Hop Into LifeBook could order it on hopindolifebook.com. It's going to be an amazing amazing series because there's gonna be some more books that's gonna come out after and I'm really really proud of my children who are co authors of this book, Brook Kate and Caleb Riley. And I would just advise you just find that activity that you could do with your kids together.

Kevin Riley [00:22:03]: It will really really make you guys closer and really make them be able to express their creative juices to you as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: Well, Kevin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing to be able to be active in your own kids' lives, but also what you're doing to be able to engage with other dads, to be able to push them to be that engaged father that they want to be as well. And I wish you all the best.

Kevin Riley [00:22:27]: Thank you, doctor Lewis. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Kevin Baker, a certified life coach and father of three. Known affectionately as "Coach Kevin," he offers unique insights into parenting through his personal and professional experiences. This episode delved into various aspects of fatherhood, particularly focusing on raising resilient daughters amidst challenges. Whether you're a new dad or a seasoned parent, the lessons and strategies discussed provide valuable takeaways for all.

The Initial Joy and Unexpected Challenges The Joy of Fatherhood

Kevin Baker's journey into fatherhood was initially marked by joy and excitement—emotions that many of us can relate to. Upon learning that he would be having a daughter, his initial thoughts mirrored those of countless new dads: excitement quickly followed by planning. From due dates to potential weather conditions, Kevin and his wife wanted to be prepared for every scenario.

Navigating Health Challenges

However, their plans changed dramatically when their daughter was diagnosed with Tetralogy of Fallot, a congenital heart condition. This unexpected news threw Kevin and his wife into a whirlwind of medical appointments and surgeries. Through three open-heart surgeries, they learned an invaluable lesson about the unpredictability of life: planning is essential, but flexibility and emotional resilience are paramount.

Facing Parenthood Fears Head-On Common Fears

Like many fathers, Kevin faced immense fears, particularly concerning his daughter's future independence given her medical challenges. His fear extended into other areas, such as her social and emotional well-being. These fears initially overshadowed his joy but evolved over time. Kevin's story is a testament to the fact that all parents, regardless of their child's health, share common anxieties about their child's future.

Overcoming Fear

Kevin emphasized the importance of addressing these fears constructively. He learned to channel his anxiety into positive, actionable steps. "Letting go of expectations," he said, allowed him to focus on being present, loving, and patient. This mindset not only alleviated his fears but also enabled his daughter to thrive despite her challenges.

Reprogramming the Parental and Child Scripts Resetting as Parents

Resetting parental expectations begins with a broad perspective on life. Kevin and his wife realized that life's journey is long and unpredictable. They practiced zooming out to see the bigger picture, understanding that daily worries shouldn't overshadow long-term happiness and success. This perspective shift provided them with emotional stability and resilience, enabling them to navigate their daughter's health issues with greater ease.

Empowering Their Daughter

For their daughter, reprogramming her mindset involved instilling tools for self-empowerment. Kevin shared how they focused on open communication, consistent encouragement, and helping her develop critical life skills. A significant part of this was educating her about the reality of social media, debunking the myths of perfection that it often portrays. They reinforced her self-worth and capabilities, allowing her to combat negative thoughts effectively.

Coaching Tweens and Teens: A Broader Perspective Understanding Teen Angst

Working with teens and tweens, both professionally and as a father, has given Kevin unique insights into the adolescent mind. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the thoughts and feelings that teens experience daily. Many teens struggle with feelings of inadequacy, anxiety, and a lack of direction, often exacerbated by societal pressures.

Strategies for Parents

Kevin's primary advice for parents is to focus on connection and communication. Instead of pressing for immediate answers, he advises listening attentively—considering both words and body language—before responding thoughtfully. He acknowledges that parents might not always be the best confidants for their teens, suggesting the involvement of other trusted adults, like extended family members or professional coaches.

Resources and Final Thoughts

Kevin's experiences and advice emphasize the importance of patience, understanding, and clear communication in parenting. One resource he recommends is Tara Brach's book, "Radical Acceptance," which advises parents to pause and breathe before reacting. This practice empowers both parent and child to make better decisions.

Closing Insights

To summarize, Kevin Baker's journey offers invaluable lessons for all parents. His emphasis on patience, flexibility, and emotional resilience can guide us all in raising strong, independent children. Resources like "Radical Acceptance" and coaching can also provide valuable support as we navigate the challenges of parenthood.

For those looking to explore more about Kevin's perspectives or seek personalized guidance, he is available through his website, lifecoachkevin.com, and various social media channels.

Fatherhood is an ever-evolving role, and by embracing lessons from leaders like Kevin Baker, we can strive to be the best dads we can be.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as we are working to be the best dads that we can be and to be able to raise those strong independent women that we all want our daughters to become. And that being said, as I've said in the past, and I'll say it again, I know it is so important that you're here today because that means that you're willing to learn, you're willing to listen, and you're willing to do what it takes to be able to get to that endpoint that you want for yourself and for your family. And to do that, you have to be willing to be open to listening, to learning, and to take it all in, and to figure out what works, and to figure out what works best for you and your family. Everything that you're gonna be hearing today may not work exactly for your family. And that's okay. Because each of us is going to father in different ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: There's not one right way to father, and there's no one playbook to follow to be able to know how best to be a father to your kids. There are so many different ways that you can do that. And what's most important though, is that you're willing to know and you're willing to learn and find some of those other tools that you can add to your own toolbox to put into place and to be able to try some of those out. Because you know what? You might learn something new about yourself and something new that you can put into place to help you be that dad that you wanna be. And that's why in every episode, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences, different dads coming from different walks of life, and as well as other experts, other people that can help you to be that father that you wanna be. And this week, we have another great guest with us. This week, we have Kevin Baker joining us or otherwise known as coach Kevin. And coach Kevin's gonna be talking with us about his own experience as a father of 3, as well as Kevin is a certified life coach who works with families and teams and helps individuals to be able to build the best version of themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: We're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for joining us today.

Kevin Baker [00:02:32]: Oh, thanks for having me, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. And I look forward to getting some insights from you too. This is great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:37]: I really appreciate you being here today. And one of the things that I love to do, 1st and foremost, is turn the clock back in time. And I know you've got 3 kids, 1 daughter, and 2 sons. And I wanna turn the clock all the way back. I know you've got a 14 year old daughter, so let's go back. Maybe it's 13 years, maybe it's 14 years, you never know. But talk to me about that first moment, that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter?

Kevin Baker [00:03:02]: Oh, pure excitement and just so much joy. Overwhelming amount actually of excitement. And it quickly turned into, okay, what do I have to do next? What's the next step? What do we do? So a little bit of anxiety being a plan. We started to make arrangements, figure out this is the due date.

Kevin Baker [00:03:18]: What's it going to be like? What's the weather going to be like? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? How are we going to do it? And so we had this great plan. And then fast forward 8 months, final checkup at the doc, they said, We're seeing something with a heart and we want to get you guys over to the hospital to check it out. And 4 days later, our daughter was born and she was diagnosed in utero with a heart condition called Tetralogy of Fallot that would require intervention at some point, which was like a total shock to us. We did not expect this. We had these plans, but what about our plans? And so we very quickly learned that it's great to have plans, but you could pretty much throw those out the window. And that has been the MO for my daughter ever since for the last 14 years. And it's been great. What a great learning experience.

Kevin Baker [00:04:01]: What a great way to what a great introduction into parenting is that it's great to have expectations and it's great to have plans, but really it's all out of your control. So don't stress too much about it when things deviate from what your perfect plan was. But fast forward 14 years, she's had 3 open heart surgeries. She had 2, her 1st year of life where they corrected the ASD and the VSD in the heart and fixed one of her valves and also fixed the bundle of tissue that was sort of in the way of things. But she just recently on May 2nd, had her 3rd open heart surgery and is fully recovered from that. And she's been swimming in the lake all summer. So it's been fantastic. And we live right outside of Boston, which is probably one of the best places in the world to have that sort of thing happen.

Kevin Baker [00:04:38]: So we're grateful and we're blessed that we've been through it. And it's been a rollercoaster of feelings, ups and downs and but we know life is a long journey and we are giving her all the tools we possibly can for her toolbox to be strong and happy and successful whatever that means to her moving forward in life. So that is the short version of becoming a parent for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]: Now, every father that I've talked to talks about fear, and your fears may be very different than some other dads, especially with some of these surgeries that your daughter has had to have in her first 14 years of life. But I'm gonna ask you the question anyways. As you entered into fatherhood, and as you've gone through these 14 years, what's been the biggest fear that you've had in raising a daughter?

Kevin Baker [00:05:23]: You know, that's a great question. The biggest fear that I've had, just because my daughter has had so many challenges I would say that she's had to overcome and she still does. She's got some communication issues, you know, some social emotional stuff happening, you know, which a lot of kiddos do. But I think my biggest fear is that she wouldn't be prepared for life outside of the house when it's time for her to be independent. And that was a fear of mine. However, it's not a fear of mine anymore. And I have been able to take all those thoughts and all those fears that I've had and let them go and sort of let go of all my expectations about what she's going to do when she gets older, who she's going to be when she grows up and just know in my heart and in my soul that we're are doing the best job that we possibly can to help this kiddo figure out who she wants to be on her own. And she's learning and she's doing great.

Kevin Baker [00:06:12]: And that all gets reinforced to us through parent teacher conferences or speaking with other adults that help out along the way to raise our family and when I'm able to let go of the fears and let go of the expectations and just know that everything's going to be okay because we have the tools to deal with it, then we're all a lot happier for it. And so, I try to not be afraid of anything because that doesn't serve anyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]: You're not the only father that has had to have those fears and has not had a child that has had to have all of those challenges within her life and that they've had to deal with in their life. But not every father has had to also deal with those. And sometimes things can change. Things can get thrown through a loop, and you've definitely had to deal with that. I guess as I think about that and what you just said, I've got 2 questions. 1st, tell me about what you and your significant other had to do to be able to reset that mindset. I'm gonna say maybe programming. Reset the script that you had in your brain about how things were going to be versus how they were? And then, 2, how have you had to work to help your own daughter to reset her script about the way in which she had to see this for herself?

Kevin Baker [00:07:34]: The first an the answer to the first question is that, you know, we really in order to reset the script as parents, we had to zoom way out on life and realize that, you know, life is a long journey. And, you know, everybody goes through stuff day to day that gets you emotional. It gives you different thoughts that you have to work through and overcome. There's a lot of worry. The world is a busy, hectic and anxiety inducing place when you think about all the things that could happen in life. But being able to zoom out and know that, yeah, some days are really, really hard. But if you think about it the right way and you know that tomorrow's another day and it's all going to be fine and we have the tools and we have the for instance, the greatest medical professionals, some of the greatest medical professionals in the world here to help us deal with some of this stuff and know that we are smart and capable adults that can work through any problem that presents itself to us. All we have to do is breathe and reason and have the resources that we were taught to use growing up, that we're going to get through it and it's going to be okay.

Kevin Baker [00:08:33]: And yeah, there are a lot of nights where there's anxiety about what's going to happen. Is she going to be okay? Is she going to be able to play on the playground? Is she going to have restrictions? Is she going to be able to get a job one day? Is she going to be able to drive? All these things that us as parents we worry about. But really, if we just focus on being present and showing love and having patience, then we have everything we need to be the best parents we can be and taking the anxiety and the worry about the future out of it and just focus on the present and do the best we can. That's how we get by day to day. And yes, some days are hard, but we get through it. We keep our positive mindset and we get through it and you know it gets better. And once you know it the next day when you tell yourself it's all going to be fine, it actually is. And how has my daughter been able to reset? We've given her a lot of tools and she's developed a lot of tools to be able to keep up with her classmates and her peers and to be able to communicate as effectively as possible with her teachers and her other trusted adults.

Kevin Baker [00:09:32]: And we tell her that she's doing a great job and we congratulate her and we're her cheerleader and we keep an open and transparent relationship so we can communicate and try and figure out what thoughts are you having and how can we help you with whatever you're dealing with? And just to keep that open dialogue and communication and let her know that everything's going to be okay. And now that she's 14, a lot of the reset is trying to impress upon her that what some of the stuff she might see online or on social media isn't really the whole truth. And some of these folks may be just showing you the top 1%, all the good stuff that's happening in their life. And maybe you don't have the fear of missing out on that because that might not be a 100% real. So bringing that all back down to reality, is a really important aspect of keeping that reset in play.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:15]: It is such an important thing. I've seen it in my own daughters, and I know that so many parents do, especially in those tween and teen years. And I mentioned the fact that you had a lot of opportunity over your career to be able to work with teens and tweens, to be able to really look at who they want to be, but also how they want to get there, and helping people and helping teens in that way.

Kevin Baker [00:10:42]: You know, the number one thing that I hear from kiddos all the time, and one of the things that we work through, because I think it's the most important thing to work through with them, is what is going on in their mind, and what thoughts are they having when they're put in certain situations that are causing the feelings and emotions that they're having that are causing the actions or non action that they're taking, which is leading to results that are either what they're looking for or not what they're looking for. So digging into what issue are they having? Is it an issue about friends? Is it academic performance? Is it something happened to do with anxiety? Or is it a lack of motivation? All these things that the parents see as red flags for instance, when they are, you know, spending too much time on the computer or not getting good grades or not socializing with too many friends or not finding interest in things that are happening in and around their life. And so, what we talk about right off the bat is what are the thoughts that you're having? And a lot of them are having thoughts that they're not good enough or they're never going to make it or, you know, they'll never be, you know, rich and famous or they don't know what they want to do with their life or they're wasting time or, you know, all these negative, deconstructive, limiting beliefs that they've had through inputs from parents, teachers and you know, there's a saying, it's parents, teachers, and preachers that really influence the belief systems that we have and parents influence their kiddos with beliefs without even knowing that they're actually programming the mind of their child. So digging into really what are those beliefs? What are those thoughts you're having? And why are you having that thought that you're not good enough? And how did that come to be? And then dissecting it. And then giving them an opposite, more empowering, constructive thought like actually, you know, with practice, I will be good enough and I could actually be one of the best or I am going to make it. You know, with hard work and persistence, I am going to make it and I'm going to be one of the best. And give them that mindset that when they have one of those negative thoughts and they have a thought that they know is not a fact to analyze that, and they come up with a new thought that empowers them. And when they have the ability to change that, to recognize that they are not their thoughts and the thoughts are just an internal narrative that's happening, everybody has it.

Kevin Baker [00:12:53]: It's a voice in their head and everybody has it, but when you can control it so that it tells you so that it doesn't hold you back and it actually pushes you forward so you can get through whatever's holding you back without talking yourself out of it, that's where we want to be with the kiddos. You know, we want to give them the ability to empower themselves when a situation arises so that when they start to feel negative or they have an experience and, you know, they think they're not good enough, that they tell themselves like, hold up, you are good enough, you got this, Just do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: And one of the things that can get really challenging in those teen and tween years is that your your children are going to are going through this transition, are going through this transition that all of us went through as kids, where they begin to test the waters even more and test the values and the family mores that have been put into place and that they've been growing up with to try to identify who do they, who are they, who do they wanna be, who are they, to try to identify who they are and who they want to be. And that can be really challenging for parents in many different ways. So I guess I'd love to have you talk to me a little bit about the work that you've done with tweens and teens. And as you're working with them as individuals from their perspective, what are you hearing from them? What are some of the things that they're saying to you? And I know you're trying to work with the parents as well because sometimes parents just don't understand as they're trying to parent these kids through what they're going through. So are there things that they can do to be able to reconnect and be able to understand their kids in a different way?

Kevin Baker [00:14:28]: Well, that's a great question, and and it's it's almost a trick question because when you're a parent asking those questions and trying to understand your kiddo, they don't always respond, and it doesn't work. Parents, it doesn't work when you're trying to do that with your kiddo. That's why it takes a village, and you need to have other trusted people in your circle that can work with you and your kiddo to get to the bottom of it because they're not gonna be as open with you no matter what. You could be the you could have the closest relationship. Like this kind of stuff doesn't work with my kids. It works great with everybody else's but, you know, there's a thing. We have a limit on what we can do. So and it's just because they see us 20 hours a day or whatever it is.

Kevin Baker [00:15:07]: You know, it's because we're there. We have all these other roles and responsibilities that sometimes prevents us from cracking the code with our own kiddos. But I would say that letting your kiddo know that, Hey, I'm here for you if you need anything, like if you want to talk. And really the first thing to do is connect. Like find the one thing that you can do to really connect with your child because it might be sitting down and watching them play a video game and asking them questions about it and then see what conversation comes from that. But showing them that you're there and you care, and then making that judgment as a parent, it's like, Is there something going on? And what can we do to help you get through some of this stuff? And they might have an aunt or uncle that they respect that's not the parent that can come in and open them up a little bit and get into that conversation. Or before you go to therapy, I always say triage with coaching because, you know, a lot of the stuff can be talked through. And when we focus on the positive with coaching, sometimes people don't need to go to therapy.

Kevin Baker [00:16:08]: Sometimes they do need to go to therapy. But parents start with connection and communicating and letting them know that you're there and you care is the number one thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:15]: So listening to what you just said, one question that still comes to my mind is if your child is having those thoughts, if you're noticing it, where's the best place to start in having these conversations with them, to engage with them, and to try to help them understanding that we may not understand completely what's going on as well? Doctor. Robert Whitfield

Kevin Baker [00:16:33]: (zero forty five:fifty four): And people change along the way. Parents change along the way. I've had 3 kids, and I think that they each have sort of had a different version of me as their father, as I've become a better dad or not, depending on which kid you ask. But we learn, and we get new tools, And I have become a better father. Over the 14 years, you know, you learn as you go, and the kiddos change drastically.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:53]: I love that concept because I think that sometimes parents get themselves into a situation where they're racking their brains, and they're trying to figure out how can I connect with them better? How can I do something to be able to reconnect? And it doesn't always happen. Now, I am making a generalization because every child is different. And as you inevitably probably either have heard or will hear, older people are always saying to newer parents, oh, you know, just wait until those teenage years. Well, the teenage years are not always going to be challenging. They may be, but they're not always going to be. So you have to realize that every child is different. And when you have multiple kids, each of your children may be different when it comes to how they go through their tween and teenage year experiences for themselves. So as you're going through this with your kids and you're realizing that each of your children are going to be different, sometimes you have kids that are going through this at the same time, and you have to have a different approach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:53]: And you have to have a different approach to working with your children. It's not always a rinse, wash, and repeat. What do you say to parents when it comes to parenting multiple tween or teens during the same period? Because we know that each of them are not going to be able to go through the same process together.

Kevin Baker [00:18:12]: Yeah. I think it's important to know that all kids are different. And, yes, they all come from you, but they are all very, very much different. And they all have their own vision. They all have their own vision, their own subconscious, and, and they all need to be treated similarly, but they're all gonna have different needs. And so trying to identify, I guess, what each kiddo needs that's different from one another is something you have to really be aware of. And that comes from listening. And when your child's talking to you, not racking your brain, thinking about what you're gonna say back to them, but to actually just listen, like to all the words and how they're saying it and what their body language is telling you while they say it.

Kevin Baker [00:18:52]: And then take all that information in and determine what your response is going to be. And to not react right away, but to give it time and pause and let everything they're saying go through the emotional part of processing and give it a minute and then reply with a reasoned response is the best way to try and figure out who each one of your kiddos is individually. And then let them know that they have such special characteristics and, you know, they have this unique identifier that is them and their personality and what you love about it to help foster that sense of individuality and to build up their self confidence and their self esteem and their self-concept because they all need to have, they all need to know their important qualities and their characteristics and their values. Like you might have a kiddo who's very sensitive and empathetic and caring and loving and really cherishes family and friendships. And you might have another kiddo who is a little bit, I don't know, more outgoing. Maybe they're a jokester. You know, maybe they are the life of the party. You know, maybe they were always the ones doing magic tricks growing up, trying to be the center of attention.

Kevin Baker [00:20:00]: You know, so all kids are different, and they all have their different qualities in trying to foster that so that your kiddos grow up with their own sense of self-concept which will carry them through life. And that's the thing that on the hard days when they get faced with an issue with friends or something academically that they can say like, You know what? I'm really smart and I can do this. Or, I am super friendly and no matter what that person says, like, I know I'm me and I am a great person and I can do this and I can make these friends or whatever the case may be, but giving them that sense of self.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]: Now, I know that you've worked with a lot of not only tweens and teens but also parents. And as you work with these individuals, are there any resources that you encourage parents or fathers to refer to as they're going through this period of time with their teen and tweens?

Kevin Baker [00:20:45]: I mean, there are some great podcasts out there, this being one of them. There's so many different resources for parents to dig in and to really spend time paying attention to. I think one of the authors that I think is really hitting the nail on the head is her name is Tara Brach. Tara Brach wrote and really the essence of it is to when you are faced with a situation with your kiddo and you don't know what to do, and maybe you're having an argument, maybe you want them to do some chores that they are procrastinating on. Maybe there's something you need them to do that they're not doing it and you're about to get really with them, but to pause and breathe. The book is called Radical Acceptance. And in essence, it is, you know, accept that your kiddo is their own person and they know the right answers in their subconscious. They know what to do and they want to please their parents.

Kevin Baker [00:21:36]: And if we pause and we breathe and we give them a chance to do that without intervening, kids will make the right decisions. And to be able to practice that and then actually see it happen, like right before you knock on your kiddo's door, after you've asked them to come down for dinner half a dozen times and they're still up there playing Fortnite or whatever it is, just walk away and don't nag them anymore and let them make the decision and let them make the choice and have the consequence because it's all a learning experience. And reading that book, Radical Acceptance, was a game changer for me in parenting and I'm happy to share that resource with whoever's interested.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:10]: Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Kevin Baker [00:22:18]: Yep. Ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]: In one word, what is fatherhood?

Kevin Baker [00:22:20]: Patience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:21]: When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Kevin Baker [00:22:25]: When she made the honor roll.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]: Now, if I was to talk to your 3 kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Kevin Baker [00:22:30]: Maybe cringey. A little bit cringe. It's a new term that when I tell my dad jokes, they don't sometimes they don't find them funny, they find them cringey. But I'd say fun, most of the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:38]: Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kevin Baker [00:22:40]: Let's say my father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]: Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that every dad can think about. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Kevin Baker [00:22:47]: I would say breathe. Breathe. When it gets tough, just breathe and let the emotion pass because emotions change. You might have an emotion of anger or being overwhelmed or being anxious about a certain situation your kid may or may not be faced with. But I think breathing is the most important thing we can do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:03]: Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you for helping teens and tweens, and thank you for being here today for sharing your wisdom on working with those teens and tweens, and for telling us more about your experience as a father. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Kevin Baker [00:23:17]: Sure. They can go to life coach Kevin.com. So on Instagram at life coach Kevin and on Facebook at teen life coach. Happy to have consultation calls with anyone that's seen some red flags. If you're frustrated or confused with what's going on with your kiddo, feel free to sign up for a call, and we can chat through it and see if working together might be the right fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]: I really appreciate you being here today, and I wish you all the best.

Kevin Baker [00:23:37]: Same here, Chris. Thanks a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Efrem Martin, a dedicated father of four daughters and a passionate advocate for intentional fatherhood. In this engaging discussion, Efrem shared his personal journey, the unique challenges he faced, and his inspiration behind writing his book, "Daddy's Girl's: A Father's How-to in Building Lifelong Relationships with our Daughter's," and starting the Girl Dad YouTube channel. Here are some profound insights from their conversation.

The Beginning of Efrem Martin's Fatherhood Journey

One of the key moments in Efrem's life was discovering that he would become a father to a daughter for the first time. Reflecting on that time, Efrem admitted to feeling a mix of nervousness and excitement. As a young man of 23 and a Marine transitioning into civilian life, he was embarking on a monumental chapter in his life.

Despite some initial fears, Efrem expressed a unique perspective: he always wanted daughters because he believed they would make him a better man. He credited his upbringing, particularly being raised by a nurturing mother in a single-parent household after the tragic loss of his father, with preparing him for this role. He drew strength and inspiration from his mother's unwavering support and the exemplary male figures—his uncles, cousins, and coaches—who stepped in to mentor him.

Overcoming Adversity and Becoming a Role Model

Efrem's father was murdered when Efrem was only two years old, fundamentally shaping his upbringing. Though he grew up without a father, Efrem found guidance in other male role models, like his coaches, who treated him like their own son. These experiences instilled in him the importance of having strong, positive male influences and reinforced his commitment to being an involved and supportive dad.

Having worked for 20 years in the criminal justice system and 10 years in K-12 education, Efrem witnessed firsthand the detrimental effects of the criminal justice system on children and families. This professional backdrop fueled his determination to ensure his daughters stayed out of the system and thrived in a safe, nurturing environment.

Efrem Martin's Philosophy: Raising Free Thinkers

Efrem's approach to fatherhood extends beyond mere presence; it is about fostering independence and critical thinking in his daughters. He emphasized the importance of raising his girls to be free thinkers rather than focusing solely on independence. By encouraging them to challenge the world around them and question everything, Efrem prepared his daughters to navigate life with self-awareness and confidence.

This philosophy is encapsulated in his self-published book, "Daddy's Girls," where he outlines the stages of development from birth to adulthood. Additionally, his Grow Dat YouTube channel serves as a platform to further elaborate on these concepts, providing fathers with data-driven insights, visual aids, and practical guidance on raising daughters.

The Grow Dat YouTube Channel: Fostering a Community of Learning

Launched in July 2023, Efrem's Grow Dat YouTube channel is a treasure trove of wisdom and support for fathers. With over 55 livestreams covering diverse topics, Efrem draws from his extensive experience and professional background to offer valuable content. His goal is not to amass a large following but to attract the right audience—fathers genuinely seeking to improve their parenting skills.

Unlike other platforms, Efrem's channel delves into deeper, more complex issues of fatherhood, leveraging his knowledge in criminal justice and education to provide context and solutions. His dedication to building this community organically reflects his commitment to authenticity and meaningful engagement.

Looking Ahead: A Vision for Greater Engagement

Efrem has ambitious plans for the future of Grow Dat. Starting in 2025, he aims to transform the channel into a more interactive space, featuring one-on-one engagements with fathers. He believes that real-time conversations and shared experiences can enrich the learning process for everyone involved. By fostering a supportive network of dads, Efrem hopes to create a space where fathers can share their struggles, triumphs, and insights in raising daughters.

Conclusion: Consistency as the Cornerstone

Towards the end of the podcast, Efrem shared his core advice for fathers: be consistent. Consistency, he believes, is the foundation of effective parenting. It provides daughters with a sense of security, allowing them to grow into confident, independent, and thoughtful individuals.

Efrem Martin's journey and insights remind us that fatherhood is a profound and ongoing adventure. Through his book, his YouTube channel, and his unwavering dedication, Efrem continues to inspire fathers to embrace their roles with commitment, compassion, and a desire for continuous growth.

For more about Efrem Martin, his book "Daddy's Girls," and the Grow Dat YouTube channel, visit his channels and social media as outlined in the podcast episode. Remember, as fathers, we have the power to shape the next generation, one loving, consistent day at a time.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC_

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to help you be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to work through what it means to be a dad to a daughter. And the biggest thing that I keep telling you over and over again is that being a father to a daughter is not always going to be the easiest, but you don't have to do this alone. And that's the thing that is most important is that you show up every week. You show up not only for your daughters, but show up for this. And you and you can hear from other dads, other people that have resources and things that you can do day in, day out to be that engaged dad that you wanna be. That's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]: It exists to help you to be able to be the dad you wanna be and help you raise those strong, independent women that you want your daughters to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Efrem Martin is with us today, and Efrem is a father of 4 girls and owner of the Girl Dad YouTube Channel. And we're going to talk about his own journey in being a dad, but also some things that he's doing to be able to help dads just like you to be those girl dads that they want to be as well. So I'm really excited to have him with us today. Efrem, thanks so much for being here today.

Efrem Martin [00:01:41]: Thank you for having me, sir. Appreciate you. Appreciate you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]: Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And the first and and and first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. I wanna go all the way back. I know your oldest is 36, so I wanna go all the way back. It might be 36 years, might be 35 years, but we're gonna go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Efrem Martin [00:02:05]: It was crazy. Nervous, excited, just all the above. And baby girls, they change your world. They change your life. So it was, I was young, 23. So very excited, though. Very excited.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of dads step into fatherhood and they're a little scared. Not only being scared of being a father, but when you put on that extra layer of being a father to a daughter, there's some additional fear. What would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Efrem Martin [00:02:35]: I think for me, just getting out of the marine corps, I was, you know, I was in the United States Marine Corps and, transitioning out and just being young, just getting my life in order, just planning and trying to understand exactly the direction I was gonna go, getting into school, making sure I got my bachelor's degree, and just planning out my life more than anything else. So that in itself was nervous for me, but I knew I was gonna be a good dad. I wasn't so much worried about that. It was just, it was exciting more than anything else. And, just looking forward to the, challenge because I actually if you believe me or not, I actually wanted daughters because I knew that they would make me a better man.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]: So when you say that you knew that being a father to a daughter would make you a better man, talk to me about that. What was it about being a father to a daughter that made you feel that way?

Efrem Martin [00:03:27]: Being raised, I came from a single parent household because my father was murdered when I was 2. Okay? So being raised without a father myself and having this incredible mother, My mother was the most nurturing, incredible woman. So getting everything from her, she couldn't teach me how to be a man, but she was just such a nurturer, and she was very attentive. So I got a lot of great qualities from her. And like I said, I didn't have my my father, but I always had my uncles. I had my first cousins. I had my brothers. So I always had good men in my life.

Efrem Martin [00:04:00]: I've never been taken advantage of as I was never taken advantage of as a child, as a kid, and my community embraced me as a as a child. So I always had good men in my life. And all the men in my life, even though I didn't have a father, they were all married. So they had their own children. And that was my experience. I wasn't exposed to a lot of single parents in my life. So not having a father, I didn't really know what to expect because I didn't have a man to guide me, but I knew that I had it in me to be this good father to a baby girl. And like I said, having my mother, I've been around my aunts my whole life, my sisters.

Efrem Martin [00:04:37]: I I'm the youngest of of of 5. So being the baby, my sisters will tell you I got over, but I don't think so. I just think I was smarter because my mom was tired by the time she got to me. But I was a good kid, so I never gave my mom any any problems. I was an athlete my entire life. And so I don't think you're ever ready, but coming out of the marine corps, I had a lot more focus. I was very well disciplined, and I wasn't really, really concerned. I was I was looking forward to the journey more than anything else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]: So talk to me about the fact that you just mentioned with your father getting murdered at such an young age for you and not having a father in that way in your life. You had other male role models, other people in your life. How did that impact you as you grew up and moved into fatherhood to be able to be the dad that you wanted to be even though you didn't have that father figure per se in your life?

Efrem Martin [00:05:32]: Okay. So for me, because I was an athlete, I played sports year round. So all my coaches, they were married, and they had their own children. So I had good men in my life that I was able to watch how they interacted with their children. And that was major for me. It was, it impacted my life because I was just one of very few boys that didn't have a father. Everyone else around me had their dads. People ask me, do you think you lost out on anything? Absolutely.

Efrem Martin [00:05:58]: I think I lost out on a lot, but I never focused on that because I was so busy. And like I said, the men that I had access to, a Latino man in my life, a white man in my life, and I had these men in my life. I didn't have a lot of well, the black men I had in my life, they were my uncles. I grew up in a community back in the seventies. It was the Chicano community, so they were all Latin men, Latinos. So all my coaches, they were either Latino or white men, but they were good men. So as a kid, that's what I focused on, and they were just good to me. And they treated me like their own.

Efrem Martin [00:06:31]: So I think what I came to understand as I got older was that you need good men in your life. And as long as you have good men in your life, you're pretty much capable of everything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:42]: Now raising kids is not always easy. There are definite positive times and hard times as well. As you look back at the years of raising your daughters into the women that they've become today, what was the hardest part in being a father to a daughter?

Efrem Martin [00:06:59]: You know, I have a totally different skill set because I worked in the criminal justice system for 20 years, and then I worked in k 12 education for 10 years. So I worked with children for 30 years. So my difficulty was making sure that they didn't end up in the criminal justice system, and I had examples on what not to do. So I was able to maneuver a lot differently. I didn't have a lot of the challenges, I believe, that a lot of fathers were going to experience because being a state juvenile probation officer and working with these these children that were adjudicated and just seeing families get messed over by the criminal justice system, I just knew this was not gonna be my children. So I learned early in my career that I have to have hope and I have to believe that if something was to happen to me, that there's going to be good adults out there that would step in and make sure that my daughters were taken care of like I was taking care of these children. So I wasn't really I just had a different sense of urgency, and the criminal justice system just it's not good for kids. So that kept me that kept me focused because what I was dealing with every day as a state juvenile probation officer and just seeing how kids got messed over, not my daughters.

Efrem Martin [00:08:14]: There's no way. And I wasn't going to invite the government into my life. I was not ever going to allow the government to have a say in the rearing of my children because when you do that, the more the government gets involved, the more say they have, the more adults that are involved. Your voice isn't heard as a parent. So my YouTube channel, Grow Dat YouTube channel, what I do is with my live streams and my videos is is I go a lot deeper, and I'm able to explain, I believe, all the stages of development. My book Daddy's Girls, I cover 3 stages of development, birth to 10 years of age, 11 to 13, and 14 to 18. And I explain in my book the sense of urgency that fathers need to have in order to build long term sustainable relationships with their daughters, with their baby girls. So this is my way of giving back.

Efrem Martin [00:09:04]: All my daughters are adults. They're out of the house, and I just wanna see all fathers do well with their children regardless of their ethnic group background and or culture. So this is why I decided to launch my YouTube channel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: So let's talk about what you are creating, what you have created, the book that you've put out there. As an author myself, I know there's a lot of passion that has to go into being able to get through the writing of a book. And you mentioned the self published book that you put out there, Daddy's Girls, that's now available on Amazon that that you've written. Talk to me about the inception of that and what made you decide that you wanted to put the time, the effort, the passion into writing it, but also trying to get it out into the world for others to read and to learn from and grow from.

Efrem Martin [00:09:50]: So I already knew when when my youngest daughter, Cheyenne, got to high school in 2014, it was just her I had her and my daughter, Zuri. They were the last 2. And Zuri was gonna be graduating in 2016. Cheyenne was going to be graduating in 2018. I decided in 2014, once Cheyenne graduates, I was going to write my book. I wanted to get them through all the stages so I could have a little bit more substance in my explanation. Having the background that I have working in the criminal justice system in K-twelve education, I was a teacher, restorative justice coordinator, and dean of students. So having the background of working on the back end of the criminal justice system and the front end of k 12 education, I just believe I could I would be able to explain to fathers what's coming.

Efrem Martin [00:10:35]: I don't tell fathers how to raise their children, their baby girls. What I explain to fathers is this is what's coming. And I believe that I could lay a framework of understanding so they have a better understanding of what's coming with their daughters. Daughters are very, very complex, as you know. You have a daughter. You have daughters. Daughters are very complex because they're going to have emotional highs and emotional lows. And understanding the different stages of development, I wish I had somebody like me when I was raising my daughters because it would have helped explain a lot of different things.

Efrem Martin [00:11:08]: YouTube was it came to the forefront around 2,005. So by 2010, my girls were pretty much they were not grown girls, but they were well on their way. The book itself is very complimentary of my YouTube channel, of my live streams, and my videos. And like I said, I just believe that I'm able to go a lot deeper. There are other YouTube channels that are out there that are that are dealing with fathers of daughters. Most of them are normally dealing with daughters under 10 years of age, and they're amazing. I get to go a lot deeper, I believe, because of my professional experience as well as my experience as a father and living it every day. And all my girls are grown, and they're amazing women.

Efrem Martin [00:11:55]: So I'm able to explain, I believe, a lot of things for fathers and save them a lot of steps. And I just look forward to the engagement because I'm very interested where fathers are at at the different stages and how I can help them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:07]: So you went from having this book to, as you were talking about, creating this YouTube page to, again, try to get some of your messaging out. What kind of response have you been getting to not only the book, but the YouTube channel and trying to and what are you trying to mostly share, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take away from reading the book or watching your videos that you're putting out into the world?

Efrem Martin [00:12:29]: Well, I'm big on engagement, and the purpose of my YouTube channel is to get engagement because I know fathers are busy. I believe that my engagement has been well. I the book is doing well, and the YouTube channel, I'm building it organically. Now I could go a whole different direction with my YouTube channel and have 10,000 subscribers or 20,000 subscribers. I'm not interested in having a lot of subscribers. I'm interested in having the right subscribers. And YouTube is very YouTube I'm learning a lot from YouTube. It's very interesting, the dynamics of YouTube, the space of YouTube.

Efrem Martin [00:13:05]: So I'm learning a lot from YouTube. And my overall goal, like I said, is to help fathers understand our sense of urgency. So I believe the engagement has been amazing. I don't get a lot of comments because I think fathers there's a lot of fathers. I just think they're nervous. And we're men. Right? And a lot of men, we're just not sure. And so this great content I'm putting out, it's in the hands of fathers.

Efrem Martin [00:13:28]: I'm going to eventually get my audience. It's coming. And I just I'm ready. To date, I've done 55 livestreams since, July of 2023, so I'm I'm consistent. And in 2025, I'm gonna change things up a little bit. I wanna have more of an engagement type channel. So it's going in stages, but I'm happy that I'm able to do a livestream every week, use data statistics, use visual aids videos, and share. So the fathers that come across my YouTube channel, I can help them, and they'll eventually we're we're gonna eventually connect.

Efrem Martin [00:14:02]: Right now, I have about 802 subscribers. So like I said, building organically, I won't do it any other way. Oh, so as a author, self published. I self published my book in February of 2020, and then the pandemic happened in March. So for 2 years, there wasn't anything I could do. And I I really even though my book was out there, I really just wanted to take this opportunity and just wait until the pandemic was over because the pandemic just it changed the world. And although my book was brand new, I didn't really wanna bother fathers because the world was just dealing with too much. So I figured, you know what? Let me wait.

Efrem Martin [00:14:43]: It took a couple years, so I figured, hey, July of 2023, let me start this YouTube channel. My book's already self published. It's out there. It's time. So I was excited about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]: So you said that you're changing things up in 2025 and or 2024, 2025. Talk to me about what's next. What's changing? You know, where are you going from here?

Efrem Martin [00:15:04]: So when you look at my videos now, what I typically do is I give commentary on my experience, and I connect videos with the topics. I have 55 livestreams, 55 different topics, which is very difficult to do, very difficult to do. So I rely a lot on my experience as a as a state juvenile probation officer and working in k twelve education. That's where I draw a lot of my topics as far as being able to go deeper. And visual aids, I know fathers, they have a lot of questions. They have a lot of concerns. But I believe that the visual aids will help them. And YouTube has everything.

Efrem Martin [00:15:40]: If you can't find it on YouTube, you can't find it. So that's where I'm currently at. And and what I wanna transition into in 2025 is having more of a 1 on 1 like you and I are having right now. That's what I'm interested in. I want more engagement from from different fathers. I I wanna I wanna hear their feedback. I wanna I wanna hear their how they're thinking, how they're feeling. Because there's a lot of fathers out there that have a lot of great ideas, and and I think that they could bring a lot to the table as as far as their own personal experiences of of fathers because we're all at different stages in our lives.

Efrem Martin [00:16:11]: Like I said, all my daughters are adults, so I no longer have them at home. So I'm at a totally different stage, and I just believe that that type of engagement on screen, I just think that it it it'll take it to a whole different level. And that's what I'm excited about that. But like I said, I've been building my capacity, and I think I'm doing well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Sure. Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood? Consistency. When was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Efrem Martin [00:16:44]: Once they all graduated from high school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:46]: Now if I were to talk to your girls, how would they describe you as a dad?

Efrem Martin [00:16:50]: My girls, what how would they describe me? Totally laid back. They'll tell you I'm the best father in the world. Great listener, consistent, understanding, passionate, attentive, just a great human being.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Efrem Martin [00:17:04]: My inspiration comes from other fathers, actually, and just seeing how they're doing things with their baby girls. Because like I said, my experience is my experience. So I'm always looking at other fathers and how how they're moving and how they're maneuvering in the world and getting it done. That that excites me because it I'm gen x. Right? So millennials and and Gen z, they do things totally different. So that excites me. I'm interested in that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:29]: Now you've given a number of pieces of advice today. You've talked about some of the experiences that you had in raising your daughters. As you think about all dads that are out there and as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Efrem Martin [00:17:43]: One piece of advice I would give to fathers, this is my first statement that you ask me, consistency. As long as you're consistent, your baby girls are gonna be fine. It's the consistency that I believe that allows us to provide that protection and safety and allows our daughters to grow. When we talk about the independence of our daughters, I didn't raise my daughters to be independent. I raised my daughters to be free thinkers. And the reason I did that was because I wanted them to challenge the world and have an open enough mind to be able to question everything. So I took a different path. I raised them to be free thinkers.

Efrem Martin [00:18:20]: They are definitely free thinkers, just like their father, which I believe allows them to embrace all of humanity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]: Now, if people want to find out more about you, your book, your where's the best place for them to go to be able to find out more?

Efrem Martin [00:18:33]: Definitely. You can find my YouTube channel at Girl Dad YouTube channel. It's on YouTube. I'm also on rubo.rumbo.com.martineframb, that's myrumbo.com. My book is available at amazon.com. You can get that directly through Amazon dotcom. Also, it's, available through my YouTube channel. It's always in it's in the description on of each of my, live streams and my videos.

Efrem Martin [00:19:00]: So that's the best way to get a hold of me. I'm on Facebook. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. So I use technology to my advantage. I've always been on the forefront of technology. I love technology.

Efrem Martin [00:19:14]: I love young people and and seeing how they move with technology. So I'm on the forefront of technology. So that's how you can find me. But my YouTube channel, I'm very proud of it. Grow Dad YouTube channel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:27]: Well, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your story, for work that you're doing to help other dads, and I truly wish you all the best.

Efrem Martin [00:19:36]: No. I appreciate you. And eventually, I'm going to bring you on to my YouTube channel because I think it would be good. And like I said, I appreciate connecting with you. So thank you for your time, sir. Appreciate you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Blast calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.