Notice That

Jen Savage and Melissa Sundwall

Notice That - An EMDR Podcast

  • Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle

    Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle

    Bridging EMDR and Somatic Experiencing: A Conversation with Amanda Johnson & Rachel Cagle

    Curious about how EMDR and Somatic Experiencing can work together? In this episode of Notice That, we explore the integration of these two modalities, the challenges and rewards of blending them, and how they can enhance trauma therapy. Tune in to hear Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle share their insights and experiences with Jen.

    Listen to the Full Episode: Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle 

    Why Blend EMDR and Somatic Experiencing?

    Many trauma therapists are trained in both EMDR and SE but struggle with how to integrate them effectively. EMDR provides a structured, protocol-driven approach to trauma reprocessing, while SE is a more fluid, intuitive method focused on tracking bodily sensations and releasing stored survival energy. Despite their differences, these modalities share a common goal: helping clients process trauma in a way that feels safe and regulated for their nervous system.

    Our guests, Amanda Johnson, LCSW, and Rachel Cagle, LPC, share their journeys into both EMDR and SE and how they’ve learned to blend them in practice.

    💬 Amanda: “I had a profound personal experience with a therapist who integrated EMDR and somatic work. That moment changed everything for me—I realized there was so much more happening in my body than I had been aware of.”

    💬 Rachel: “Talk therapy alone felt like it was missing something. When I started receiving somatic therapy as a client, it shifted something internally for me. I knew I wanted to bring that into my work with clients.”

    Where EMDR and SE Complement Each Other

    Throughout the episode, Amanda and Rachel highlight specific ways that SE can enhance EMDR, particularly for clients who struggle with embodiment.

    🔹 Pendulation and Titration: SE emphasizes moving between activation and regulation, mirroring EMDR’s use of dual attention and calm place resourcing. “In SE, we learn to gently introduce activation, pendulate back to safety, and slowly build the nervous system’s capacity for intensity,” Rachel explains.

    🔹 Tracking the Body’s Cues: EMDR often includes body scans, but SE provides a deeper framework for understanding bodily signals. Amanda describes how SE helps her notice micro-movements in clients—like subtle shifts in breath or posture—that offer valuable information for the healing process.

    🔹 Expanding Affect Tolerance Before Reprocessing: One of the biggest mistakes therapists make in EMDR is pushing into reprocessing before a client has the affect tolerance to stay with activation. SE teaches clinicians how to gradually increase that tolerance, making EMDR more effective. “If a system doesn’t yet know how to process and release activation, it’s too early for trauma processing,” Amanda explains.

    Challenges in Integration

    Despite their synergy, integrating these approaches can be tricky. Amanda shares a formative experience early in her training where she presented an EMDR case at a Peter Levine case consultation.

    💬 Amanda: “I had just finished my EMDR training and had worked with a client using a single-episode trauma approach. When I described this in the consultation, I felt like I had made a huge mistake—like EMDR wasn’t supposed to be used for this client’s complex trauma history. That moment really threw me. I actually put EMDR on the shelf for a while because I wasn’t sure how to reconcile the two approaches.”

    For Rachel, the challenge has been introducing SE concepts to long-term EMDR clients.

    💬 Rachel: “With newer clients, I can naturally integrate both approaches from the beginning, but with established clients, I sometimes have to introduce SE more explicitly. It can feel like I’m asking them to do something totally different, and that takes some adjusting.”

    Do Therapists Need Formal SE Training to Work Somatically?

    If you’re an EMDR therapist who wants to bring in more somatic awareness but isn’t sure if full SE training is the right path, Amanda and Rachel suggest exploring:

    ✅ Polyvagal Theory: Learning about nervous system states can significantly enhance your EMDR work.

    ✅ Shorter Somatic Trainings: Many organizations offer introductory somatic courses that are less intensive than full SE certification.

    ✅ Personal Somatic Work: One of the best ways to integrate somatics into your practice is to experience it yourself. “If we’re asking our clients to engage with their bodies in this way, we should be doing that work, too,” Amanda emphasizes.

    Final Thoughts: An Ongoing Integration

    Blending EMDR and SE isn’t about choosing one over the other—it’s about allowing both to influence the way we show up with clients. As Amanda puts it:

    💬 “EMDR gave me the coloring book—the structure and framework—but SE taught me how to color outside the lines in a way that makes sense for each client.”

    For therapists who feel torn between structured and fluid approaches, Rachel offers this encouragement:

    💬 “Everything doesn’t have to fit neatly into a model. The best therapy is relational, responsive, and flexible. Give yourself permission to integrate what works for you.”

    Connect with Amanda & Rachel

    If you’re interested in learning more about integrating EMDR and SE, Amanda and Rachel both offer consultation:

    🔹 Amanda Johnson, LCSW – amandajohnsonlcsw.com

    🔹 Rachel Cagle, LPC – Connect via Beyond Healing

    What are your thoughts on blending EMDR and SE? Have you tried integrating somatic approaches into your trauma work? Let us know in the comments below!

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle appeared first on Notice That.

    14 February 2025, 5:23 pm
  • EMDR with Kids: Interview with Christine Mark-Griffin

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger sit down with Kristine Mark-Griffin for a discussion on working with children using EMDR. Christine is the founder of EMDR for Kids. She is an EMDRIA approved Consultant & advanced trainer. She is the author of the award winning EMDR Workbook for Kids and is the lead trainer at EMDR for Kids. Christine’s professional experience has included working in non-profit, child welfare, juvenile justice, community mental health, school-based mental health and higher education settings. Working in these various settings over the years has deepened her knowledge and understanding of complex trauma but has also exposed her to some of the most beautiful stories of healing and resilience. Christine is also a perinatal mental health certified therapist and loves working with expecting and new mamas! She provides a variety of EMDR consultation services & training and welcomes EMDR clinicians to join her offerings below!

    If you are a therapist who is interested in working towards EMDR certification or becoming a Consultant-in-training (CIT) with Christine, please complete the

    All EMDR therapists are welcome to join monthly drop-in EMDR consultation groups.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post EMDR with Kids: Interview with Christine Mark-Griffin first appeared on Notice That.

    The post EMDR with Kids: Interview with Christine Mark-Griffin appeared first on Notice That.

    6 February 2025, 2:28 pm
  • Beyond is Evolving!: Shifts and Refocusing

    Listen in to hear Jen, Melissa, and Bridger talk about their relationship over the past five years in starting Beyond Healing and embracing authenticity and humanness through it all.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Beyond is Evolving!: Shifts and Refocusing first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Beyond is Evolving!: Shifts and Refocusing appeared first on Notice That.

    6 February 2025, 1:03 pm
  • Happy New Year!

    Happy New Year! Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger talk about some super exciting things coming in 2025 including a new podcast setup, conference presentations, a new EMDR Basic Training, and so much more!

    The post Happy New Year! first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Happy New Year! appeared first on Notice That.

    16 January 2025, 2:02 pm
  • Ketamine Assisted EMDR Therapy: Interview with Danielle Ciccone & Michele Topel

    In this exciting episode, we sit down with Danielle Ciccone and Michele Topel, the creators of Ketamine Assisted EMDR Therapy. Combining the transformative power of EMDR with the therapeutic benefits of ketamine, this innovative modality is expanding the possibilities for trauma healing and mental wellness.

    Danielle and Michele, co-founders of the Ketamine-Assisted EMDR Therapy Institute, share insights into the neurobiology behind this approach, the development of their EMDRIA-approved advanced training, and the results of their 2024 pilot study demonstrating significant reductions in PTSD symptoms.

    Tune in to explore:

    • How Ketamine-Assisted EMDR was developed.
    • The unique synergy between EMDR and ketamine therapy.
    • Key considerations for clinicians interested in integrating this modality into their practice.

    Whether you’re an EMDR therapist or someone passionate about cutting-edge trauma therapies, this episode is packed with valuable insights you won’t want to miss.

    Learn more about their work at ketamineassistedemdr.com.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Ketamine Assisted EMDR Therapy: Interview with Danielle Ciccone & Michele Topel first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Ketamine Assisted EMDR Therapy: Interview with Danielle Ciccone & Michele Topel appeared first on Notice That.

    9 January 2025, 3:22 pm
  • EMDR, Ego-States, and Neurobiology – Interview with Sandra Paulsen

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger’s conversation with Sandra Paulsen. Yes, THE Sandra Paulsen. The author of some of your favorite books for trauma related dissociation treatment and several popular EMDR texts. Some of her work includes When There Are no Words, Looking Through the Eyes of Trauma and Dissociation, Neurobiology and Treatment of Traumatic Dissociation, and her most recent works, We’re Listening Body, and Indigenous Trauma and Dissociation. — For those of you who don’t know Sandra, she is a clinical and consulting psychologist who has used EMDR and ego state therapy to help many trauma survivors heal for over thirty years. She uses the early trauma approach of EMDR in combination with somatic methods, an intuitive understanding of traumatic reenactment experience, and ego state work to transform and repair trauma held in implicit memory. In this conversation, Sandra shares about her experience in developing NEST, N – E – S – T – an integrated and systematic means to identify and address obstacles to the therapeutic repair of the effects of trauma. “N” represents the neuroaffective foundations of our understanding and treatment of trauma, including the Early Trauma approach of EMDR. These foundations are inspired by the seminal contributions of Panksepp, Porges, Schore, and many more. Additionally, Sandra uses technologies such as LENS Neurofeedback, TouchPoints, and AlphaStim where indicated to assist in healing work. “E” stands for the emphasis on Embodiment that emerges from utilizing somatic therapeutic interventions to repair somatic dissociation and other bodily and energetic holdings that result from trauma in infancy and beyond. “S” represents the system of ego states, which she addresses with Ego State Therapy, seeking to mitigate the protective functions of those states that interfere with working with other hurt child aspects of the self that were disowned for survival. Subsequently, we mediate internal conflicts and orient forsaken aspects of self to present circumstances and more. “T” signifies that the approach is a therapy consistent with the core reparative process of Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy. Sandra is known for her integration of the above therapies in a systematic way tailored to the needs of the individual. Sandra has many resources available for therapists as well as some workshops on NEST so if you’re interested, head over to paulsenpsychology.com to find out more. Before we dive into the episode, we just wanted to share a few of the upcoming training opportunities happening in the institute. Relevant to this episode actually, Jen and I will be doing another SIP II training in Healing the Fragmented self where we connect the basic principles of SIP including the venn diagram and intersubjectivity into how the self is formed throughout development and how it can become fragmented into self states. We also have a couple more workshops that we’re doing in January which includes Offering Healing Intensives, where Jen and I will share our approach to setting up and facilitating EMDR retreats as well as intensives in EMDR therapy. Then Melissa will be doing a workshop on nature based resourcing where she will introduce you to a way of using nature-based resources during Phase 2 of EMDR therapy, focusing on fostering a secure attachment to the natural world. Participants will explore how the four elements—earth, water, fire, and air—can be integrated into therapeutic practice to provide grounding, safety, and connection for clients. If you’re interested in any or all of these things, head over to our website at connectbeyondhealing.com and click on the for therapists tab.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post EMDR, Ego-States, and Neurobiology – Interview with Sandra Paulsen first appeared on Notice That.

    The post EMDR, Ego-States, and Neurobiology – Interview with Sandra Paulsen appeared first on Notice That.

    22 November 2024, 8:32 pm
  • Ending Therapy: How do You Know?

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger’s discussion on ending therapy. This conversation is a part of Notice That’s Back to Basics series where the hosts work through Francine Shapiro’s Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures, now in its third edition.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Ending Therapy: How do You Know? first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Ending Therapy: How do You Know? appeared first on Notice That.

    7 November 2024, 1:55 pm
  • Reevaluation and the Three Pronged Protocol

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger discuss Reevaluation in the standard 8-phase protocol of EMDR, as well as the three pronged protocol embedded in the adaptive information processing (AIP) model. This conversation is a part of the Back to Basics series where the hosts of Notice That are reading through Francine Shapiro’s eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (3rd ed.).

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Reevaluation and the Three Pronged Protocol first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Reevaluation and the Three Pronged Protocol appeared first on Notice That.

    24 October 2024, 12:25 pm
  • The EMDR Continuum: Interview with Roy Kiessling

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger’s conversation with Roy Kiessling about the EMDR processing continuum.

    In this conversation, Roy shares about the differences between EMD, EMDr, and EMDR processing where unrestricted and full network processing is the goal. Many clinicians struggle in working with clients who are quick to dysregulate or experience various forms of dissociation and abreaction to the EMDR process; the EMDR continuum can be such a faithful guide in working to support clients where they are and where they want to be.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post The EMDR Continuum: Interview with Roy Kiessling first appeared on Notice That.

    The post The EMDR Continuum: Interview with Roy Kiessling appeared first on Notice That.

    10 October 2024, 1:14 pm
  • EMDR Now, Then, and Tomorrow: Interview with Roy Kiessling

    Listen in to hear Jen and Melissa’s conversation with Roy Kiessling. Roy is an EMDRIA-certified trainer and the founder of EMDR Consulting. Trained in EMDR in 1995, Roy grew professionally as one of Francine Shapiro’s training facilitators (1997-2001), then as a senior trainer for her humanitarian organization (2001-2013), and finally as a senior trainer for Francine’s EMDR Institute (2006-2013).

    Through EMDR Consulting, Roy Kiessling and his team of trainers and coaches have conducted hundreds of EMDRIA-Approved basic EMDR trainings, educated over 10,000 clinicians in the Belief Focused Neurological Approach to EMDR, and taught innovative approaches including extended resourcing and neurological target planning and processing, using his EMDR Processing Continuum: EMD^, EMDr, EMDR.

    Jen and Melissa got to have this first conversation with Roy to learn a bit about Roy’s journey as well as what he sees as the issues of our time in the EMDR world. In our second conversation, Jen and I got to sit down with Roy to dive a bit deeper into the EMDR Processing Continuum that fluidly attunes the EMDR process to the individuals we’re working with through EMD, EMDr, and EMDR so look for that in forthcoming releases if you’re interested.

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post EMDR Now, Then, and Tomorrow: Interview with Roy Kiessling first appeared on Notice That.

    The post EMDR Now, Then, and Tomorrow: Interview with Roy Kiessling appeared first on Notice That.

    26 September 2024, 1:45 pm
  • Unlocking EMDR’s Potential: A Deep Dive with EMDRIA’s Michael Bowers on Building Community, Advocacy, and Excellence

    Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger’s conversation with Michael Bowers, the Executive Director of EMDRIA. We got to meet Michael at the EMDRIA summit this last spring in Seattle and were so delighted when he agreed to come on the podcast and share a bit about himself as well as what he sees as the present and future of EMDR. In this conversation, we got to talk with Michael about a wide range of EMDR’s history, the tension and gifts of EMDR’s growth over the years, and the present and future vision for EMDR as advocated for and led by EMDRIA. Michael shared a wealth of insight and perspective into the world of EMDRIA as well as how to stay connected beyond attending trainings and conferences by joining the EMDRIA Online Community, privately hosted on EMDRIA’s website. I’ve spent a couple hours already exploring this page with nearly 17,000 EMDR clinician members, and there are a ton of resources available and free to use. If you’re interested to learn more about joining the community, head over to EMDRIA’s website and search “community”, or in your favorite browser, just type in “EMDRIA Community” and it’ll take you right to it.

    Also, don’t forget to check out the EMDRIA Library for access to EMDR related research articles, blog posts, resources, trainings, continuing education opportunities, and so much more!

    Did you know?  After full completion of Beyond Healing Institute’s Somatic Integration and Processing training, each participant can receive 21 NBCC hours.

    Contact BHC

    Think Beyond Podcasts:

    Support a Child with a Donation Today!

    • Donate here!
    • 100% of the proceeds donated to the Burntout Educator will provide high quality therapy for a child in the public school system.

    Connect with us on social media: Facebook & Instagram 

    Credits

    Executive Directors: Jennifer and Ryan Savage, Melissa Bentinnedi, Bridger Falkenstien

    Hosts: Jennifer Savage, Melissa Benintendi, and Bridger Falkenstien

    Podcast Producer: Bridger Falkenstien

    Original Music Composers: Bridger Falkenstein and Caleb Boston

    The post Unlocking EMDR’s Potential: A Deep Dive with EMDRIA’s Michael Bowers on Building Community, Advocacy, and Excellence first appeared on Notice That.

    The post Unlocking EMDR’s Potential: A Deep Dive with EMDRIA’s Michael Bowers on Building Community, Advocacy, and Excellence appeared first on Notice That.

    12 September 2024, 1:24 pm
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