Religion on the News is back — (thanks to our patron Samantha for suggesting that series title!) Mason Mennenga joins me to round up the latest stories from faith, culture, and psychology.

After acknowledging the tragedy of the mass shooting in Australia, we segue into the absurdity of Skillet—yes, the massive Christian rock band—getting "criticized" for making their Christmas hymn cover sound too demonic (spoiler: the controversy seems manufactured by two Twitter/X accounts with tiny followings). But this leads us down a fascinating rabbit hole about evangelicalism's century-long panic over music itself, from jazz's "jungle rhythms" to today's active rock, and why conservative Christians keep mistaking their aesthetic preferences for theological truths. 

Speaking of music, AI-generated gospel music hit #1 on iTunes! We reckon with whether the "art vs. artist" divide holds up when there's no actual artist at all—just algorithms and Auto-Tune's logical endpoint. 

Finally, we discuss if declining alcohol consumption might actually be terrible news for the American community, drawing on Blue Zones research and my own recent reckoning with using substances to enhance rather than escape.

If you've ever wondered whether Process Theology can capitalize on increased cannabis use, why college students don't party anymore, or what it means that we're losing our shared vices without replacing the social functions they served, pour yourself a craft beer (or don't) and listen now.

Mason's Website | ⁠Masonmennenga.com

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In today’s episode, I’m joined by social psychologist Dr. James Pennebaker from UT Austin to explore an uncomfortable truth: we don't use language to tell the truth—we use it to justify ourselves and protect our egos, whether we're explaining to our spouse why we didn't do the dishes or electing presidents based on confidence rather than facts.

We dig into why we're suckers for confident, simple speakers (explaining the rise of figures like Trump and Obama), how wisdom traditions manage to preserve truth despite our constant self-deception, why we've all retreated into communities that confirm our existing beliefs, and whether the 90% of values we actually share can compete with the 10% that's tearing us apart.

James brings decades of psychological research to help explain several cultural movements, like how politicians have become less logical but more confident over the past century and how evangelical Christian institutions have trained millions of people to tune out challenging information. 

We end wrestling with whether AI represents humanity's next great cognitive leap forward or just gives us shinier tools to build more convincing echo chambers—and why the answer might depend entirely on how we choose to use them.

James's Faculty Page

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Welcome to a special episode of GenDERation Gap Culture Hour with Joy Vetterlein bringing a female perspective to the conversation with me, Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones.

We launch in with crystals and why religious nones don’t seem to engage in more spiritual practices before we each share our Spotify Wrapped ages (guess who is the oldest?). Tony shares why Hans Zimmer is at the top of his playlist.

In the Patron-only second half, Joy airs her grievances with how we’ve discussed Taylor Swift in the past, Dan shares his new nightly ritual of watching the American Revolution docuseries by Ken Burns, and we debate whether patriotism is a right-leaning tradition.

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In today’s episode, I’m joined by writer, rabbi, journalist and fellow “weird religious person” Jay Michaelson for a thought-provoking conversation that already has me scheming ways to have him back on the show!

We articulate the tension between liberal theology and ecstatic spiritual experience: why do people whose politics we agree with have boring prayer services while the charismatic communities offer genuine transcendence amidst their rigid theology? 

Jay opens up about overcoming his own "Christophobia" (yes, he wrote an article called "How I Finally Came to Accept Christ in My Heart"), and we dig into his concept of "small-r religion"—the intentional, piecemeal approach to meaning-making that liberal religious folks practice versus capital-R traditional religion. It gets juicy as we wrestle with whether this progressive, open-minded approach can actually compete with conservative religion's appeal in our current moment of nihilism and meaning crisis. Can pluralistic spirituality be effective at fighting back against the wide road of AI slop, economic despair, and rising authoritarianism??

I push back on Jay's darker assessments while he challenges my therapeutic optimism, and we land somewhere fascinating between acceptance, the narrow road, and what we can actually control.

This one covers everything from Buddhist meditation to Trump to whether my hypothetical gay Christian clients need liberal churches. I hope you enjoy.

Jay's Substack | Both/And with Jay Michaelson

Jay's Book "God vs. Gay? The Reli­gious Case for Equality"

Jay's Website | Jaymichaelson.net

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I sit down with Dr. Nathan Carlin, professor of medical humanities and author of The Secularization of Medicine, to explore his fascinating thesis that doctors have become the new priests of secular society.

We trace how this shift began—from medieval cathedrals as the highest points in European cities to modern hospital skylines dominating places like Houston's Texas Medical Center, where people now make pilgrimages seeking salvation of the body rather than the soul. Nathan walks me through the historical intertwining of religion and medicine, from the original Hippocratic Oath invoking Apollo to the 1850s when the American Medical Association's code explicitly grounded medical ethics in religion, and how the 1960s-70s brought radical secularization alongside movements for patient rights and autonomy.

We explore the moral complexities of medical decision-making through the haunting case of Dax, a burn victim who consistently demanded to die but was kept alive by doctors who believed they knew best, and examine Canada's controversial Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) program, which now accounts for one in twenty deaths. Our conversation explores the tension between patient autonomy and other moral values, the vulnerability inherent in the doctor-patient relationship that mirrors the confessional booth, and why psychedelic research needs the institutional prestige of places like Johns Hopkins to gain legitimacy—a perfect example of medicine functioning as the new church.

In the Patron-only second half, we discuss cases of medical fraud, vaccine skepticism and institutional trust, and why medicine needs practices of confession and forgiveness to repair the mistrust that plagues healthcare today.

Dr. Carlin's Book | The Secularization of Medicine: Ritual, Salvation, and Prophecy

Dr. Carlin's Faculty Page | Med.uth.edu/oep/nathan-carlin-ph-d

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We ease into today’s topic with a Top of Mind segment on two competing narratives: does having children make the future better? Or worse? From right-leaning fears of population collapse to left-leaning concerns about overpopulation and climate impact, both arguments rely on catastrophizing about opposing dystopian predictions, and I myself have not been immune to them.

For our main interview, I’m joined by Kevin Kelly, founding editor of Wired magazine and author of the "thousand true fans" theory (yes, that Kevin Kelly), to explore his concept of "protopia"—a vision of the future that's neither utopian nor dystopian, but rather a steady 1-2% improvement compounded over time. We get into the weeds on process theology, the cosmic Christ appearing on trillions of planets, why we'll need a "catechism for robots" within 100 years, and how AI might actually make us better humans by forcing us to codify what "better than us" even means. 

Kevin's technological optimism isn't naive—he fully acknowledges that more powerful technologies create more powerful problems—but he argues our capacity to solve problems consistently outpaces our ability to create them, and that technology itself carries something divine in how it expands the possibility space for human flourishing.

From personal anxiety about parenthood to cosmic theology to the future of consciousness itself—this is exactly the kind of conversation we love to have on this show.

Kevin Kelly's Website | Kk.org

Article Mentions:

https://skepticalscience.com/moving-away-high-end-emission-scenarios.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com

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In the continuation of this series examining how cognitive distortions impact our religious beliefs and experiences, I'm diving into one of the most pervasive distortions with returning guest Molly LaCroix: jumping to conclusions. 

This thinking error shows up everywhere: in our relationships (Molly shares a perfect personal example involving this very podcast), our therapy practices, and especially in religious contexts. I break down the difference between evidence-based thinking and filling voids with negative assumptions, examining everything from Job's misguided friends to prosperity gospel theology. 

We tackle some genuinely sticky questions: What's the difference between jumping to conclusions and taking a leap of faith? How do we hold beliefs provisionally while maintaining committed faith? And when does this cognitive distortion cross into spiritual abuse territory? 

Drawing from evolutionary psychology, Christian tradition, and wisdom from Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam, we land on something surprisingly hopeful—that both good therapy and ancient religious wisdom point us toward the same antidote: slow down, seek fuller information, and approach others with curiosity rather than suspicion. 

Whether you're a therapist, a person of faith navigating deconstruction, or just someone who wants to stop catastrophizing every time a sent text goes unanswered, this conversation offers practical tools wrapped in deeper existential questions about certainty, ambiguity, and what it means to truly have faith.

Molly's Website | ⁠Mollylacroix.com

Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves (#197)

Episode #123 with Heather Griffin | "Bible Truths," "Sanctified Common Sense," & "Evangelical Insta-Trust"

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We’re back with another Generation Gap Culture Hour featuring myself, Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert all representing our different generational viewpoints. As is our regular dynamic, this one kicks off with Tony disagreeing with something I say.

We quickly get into discussing whether genetic analysis of historical figures like Hitler (yes, they sequenced his DNA from blood on a couch) actually tells us anything meaningful. Tony is skeptical, but I think the connection between genetics and legacy is fascinating in how it informs our understanding of nature versus nurture.

We debate about whether or not the word "pedophile" is being misused in coverage of the Epstein files, and why precision in language matters even when discussing despicable people. We cleanse our palates with meditative bushcraft videos served up by my five-year-old’s YouTube algorithm.

In the Patreon-only second half we finish our discussion on the re-emergence of "pedophile" into public discourse, debate whether modern guys are too self-conscious about nudity in locker rooms (with Tony lamenting his gym now requires swimsuits in the hot tub), and I somehow end up moderating while Tony and Josh argue about whether co-ed locker rooms would have more or fewer social norms.

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Definitely don’t play this one with kids around! I’m sitting down with journalist Ellen Huet to explore the rise and fall of OneTaste, a San Francisco wellness startup that built an empire around "orgasmic meditation"—a 15-minute sexual practice wrapped in spiritual language and trademark Silicon Valley business savvy. 

Ellen, who wrote the exposé that helped trigger an FBI investigation and whose book Empire of Orgasm releases tomorrow, walks me through how founder Nicole Dadone created a company that promised enlightenment through sexuality, borrowed heavily from Buddhist and tantric traditions (while naming their practice "OM"), and attracted a devoted following among tech workers and entrepreneurs. We get deep into the “ick” of how spirituality, commerce, and exploitation all worked together, discussing how implicit manipulation can be more powerful than explicit demands, why people stayed despite red flags, and how OneTaste's playbook mirrors both traditional cult dynamics and the modern wellness influencer industrial complex. 

From "unconditional sex" experiments to forced labor convictions, this conversation reveals how spiritual abuse operates in startup culture and why the future of cult-like control might look less like rural communes and more like your Instagram feed. 

Fair warning: this episode includes frank discussion of sexual practices and exploitation.

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Matthew Burdette—Episcopal priest, theologian, and editor—joins me for a wide-ranging conversation about theology and culture. We cover a little bit of everything in this one!

Matthew begins by telling me about his theology of culture, and how his approach allows God to remain distinct from culture while still being relevant to everything. We look at how both liberal and conservative Christianity can fail when they focus too much on either human goodness or human sinfulness. 

Matthew also challenges common assumptions about power and privilege, arguing that gestures like land acknowledgments or other virtue signals can often mask—rather than address—real authority, and we wrestle with thorny questions about immigration, marriage, and what it means to bear the "cross" of Christian ethics in a world of undeniable trade-offs. 

In the Patron-only second half, we discuss how paternalism—from COVID policies to climate change messaging to my own admitted tendency to peoples tendency to manage others anxiety for them—undermining both personal relationships and democratic governance.

Matt's Substack | Matthewburdette.substack.com

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I'm sitting down with my friend of 12 years, Sara Billups, to talk about her brand new book Nervous Systems—and all the many meanings implied in its title. 

We start with how anxiety gets passed down through generations. Sara shares about her wonderfully neurotic Jewish father and frequent medical “scares” that shaped her nervous system before she could even articulate a worry. 

But this isn't just another Seinfeld episode or therapy session about family patterns—Sara takes us into how anxiety operates at three interconnected levels: our individual bodies, the church body that's absorbed America's cultural panic instead of offering an alternative, and our body politic that's turned every election into an apocalypse. 

Sara introduces me to a counterintuitive Jesuit practice called "holy indifference" that she discovered through nine months of Ignatian spiritual exercises, which maps perfectly onto OCD treatment principles. 

We wrestle with impossible questions like whether progressive Christians should keep reaching across the aisle to conservatives when the stakes feel existential and whether learning to lose—politically, personally, physically—might be the only way to stay sane in a world that's convinced every loss is the end of democracy.

Sarah's Book | Nervous Systems: Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics

Sarah's Substack | BITTER SCROLL

Sarah's Podcast | That's The Spirit

Previous Episode with Sara | Orphaned by Evangelicalism (#175)

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