On today’s episode, host Kate Lindsay is joined by culture writer Mikala Jamison to talk about the rise in online concern about celebrities’ bodies. Mikala writes the newsletter Body Type, and her forthcoming book The Forever Project details her recovery from an eating disorder. Following the premiere of movies like Wicked: For Good, fan concern and speculation about celebrity bodies has culminated in a larger discussion about the return of “this is in.” But did “thin” really ever go away? And what is the right way, if any, to talk about it?

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.

“Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg. 

“All Things New” is by Rory Cooney.

“Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby.

“Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn. 

“The Potter’s House” is by V. Michael McKay. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9.

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Production credits: 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.

Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups

Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth

The Ali Forney Center

The Trevor Project’s 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness

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On today’s episode host Kate Lindsay is joined by senior supervising producer Daisy Rosario to unpack the 25-part TikTok saga titled the “Danish Deception.” After a former Bachelor contestant came forward with a story about her scamming ex, TikTok turned on her instead. Why didn’t Onyeka get the Reesa Teesa treatment? And who is the real villain of this story?

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back?

“My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens’ Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858.

“The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin. 

The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s. 

And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV. 

Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors. 

Let’s Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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When the Metropolitan Community Church was founded in the late sixties, it was one of the first gay positive churches in America. When AIDS hit, it became a refuge for people who were sick and those who were mourning them. 

In this episode, Anna talks to researcher Lynne Gerber, about finding boxes of cassettes under the church floor in an MCC church in San Francisco, and how those recordings of sermons and songs became a podcast about finding community and comfort during a crisis. 

Lynne Gerber is the host of the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven.

Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus.

And if you’re new to the show, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna’s newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is [email protected].

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Between the drastic budget cuts and provisions in the Big Beautiful Bill, the Trump administration has found a way to drain Planned Parenthood and other reproductive health centers and cut off access to abortion services—as well as any other health care those clinics provided. 

Guests:  Shefali Luthra, reproductive health reporter at The 19th, author of Undue Burden: Life and Death Decisions in Post-Roe America.

George Hill, President and CEO of Maine Family Planning.

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Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.

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On today’s episode host Kate Lindsay is joined by porn historian Noelle Perdue, author of the Porn World newsletter. OpenAI announced that they’d allow adult users to have erotic conversations with ChatGPT, just one more way AI and porn are becoming intertwined. As sex becomes more online, not only does it become more solitary, but also more surveilled. Both of these things are intended to divide us, but Noelle is confident that AI’s attempted sex-takeover will fail. 

This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, and Kate Lindsay.

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Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you. 

You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He’s the one with the bandaids on his knees. 

Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here. 

Scott’s San Francisco hula school was Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. They celebrated their 40th anniversary in 2025. Scott’s teacher and friend, Kumu Patrick Makuakāne is in the 2023 cohort of MacArthur Fellows. His recent work includes Māhū, a work by and with trans hula performers.  

On the MCC in Hawai’i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai’i’s story here. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 . 

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

“Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson.

“In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It’s the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria’s mother 

“God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.  

Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode. 

• Frank DeLuca

• William Salit and Stan Stone

• Dr. Rachel Gross

• Dr. Christopher Cantwell

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

The Hawai’i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai’i. 

International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity. 

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

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The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We’re sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS’ bleak midwinter. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude.

In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC. 

“Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis. 

You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here. 

The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44.

Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. 

Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  

Some links to good groups:

AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it. 

The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement. 

San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV. 

POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).
Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.

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On today’s episode host Kate Lindsay is joined by writer and content creator Josh Lora, who also goes by TellTheBees. Josh’s Substack essay, Boyfriendland, was cited in the viral Vogue article written by Chanté Joseph, “Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing Now?” Many women are hiding their boyfriends online, or losing followers if they hard-launch. Some go as far as to say having a boyfriend “feels republican.” Is this heterofatalism gone too far, or a long-overdue correction to the patriarchy?

This podcast is produced by Daisy Rosario, Vic Whitley-Berry, and Kate Lindsay.

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It didn’t take long to go from Beyoncé holding for applause in front of the word “FEMINISM” to a headline in the New York Times asking “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?” How long is this backlash going to last?

Guest:  Danielle Kurtzleben, political correspondent at NPR. 

Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen.

Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther.

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