CX Files will return on September 3, 2026.

Enjoy the summer!

Mark & Peter

LinkedIn Has Lost the Plot — Can the CX Community Fix It?

LinkedIn was once the essential networking platform for business professionals, but today it can feel overwhelmed by sponsored posts, algorithmic recommendations, automated sales messages and bland AI-generated content. Even genuine attempts to connect and start conversations are increasingly met with silence or suspicion.

Peter Ryan talks to Simma Kularatna, Head of New Business at Interact Contact Centres, about why LinkedIn has become so difficult to navigate and whether it can still deliver value for the CX community. Drawing on her experience of spending several hours each day using the platform, Simma explores how professionals can rebuild trust, create more authentic content and turn passive connections into meaningful business relationships.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/skularatna/

https://interactcc.com/

Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the relevance and challenges of LinkedIn for the CX community. They reflect on the platform's evolution, noting an increase in AI-generated content and sponsored posts, which dilutes the quality of engagement. Simma Kularatna, from Interact Contact Centres, joins to discuss the decline in genuine connections and relationships on LinkedIn. She emphasizes the need to rebuild trust and engage authentically, suggesting proactive commenting and creating a dedicated CX leaders page. They agree on the importance of LinkedIn for professional networking and advocate for a return to its original purpose of building meaningful business relationships.

Jim Farnsworth is Founder and CEO of HiOctayne. He is based in Denver, Colorado. Jim has a long history as a senior leader within and advisor to multiple BPOs and CX experts. He is therefore well placed to comment on why the publicly traded BPOs have seen their share price collapse - and what can these companies do to recover?

Publicly traded BPO and CX companies have faced a dramatic collapse in investor confidence over the past few years. Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan open this episode by exploring how AI disruption, falling valuations, short sellers, and weak industry storytelling have allowed analysts and investors to define the future of the sector.

Peter then speaks with Jim Farnsworth, founder and CEO of HiOctayne, about why the market increasingly views traditional BPO companies as vulnerable labor-arbitrage businesses rather than growth companies. Jim argues that BPOs need to stop positioning themselves as technology companies and instead demonstrate how they can deliver customer outcomes through a blend of AI, automation, analytics, and human expertise. The conversation also explores whether privately owned firms have an advantage over publicly traded businesses because they can plan beyond the pressure of quarterly results.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jifarnsworth/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/hioctayne/

Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the challenges faced by publicly traded BPOs, noting significant losses and declining share prices over the past few years. They highlight the impact of AI on the industry, with companies like Klarna announcing major workforce reductions, leading to a negative narrative. Jim Farnsworth, a BPO industry expert, emphasizes the need for BPOs to redefine themselves as hybrid entities combining human and AI capabilities. He suggests that private equity-owned BPOs may have an advantage due to less pressure from quarterly market expectations and more strategic flexibility. The conversation underscores the importance of storytelling and strategic positioning in the evolving CX landscape.

If AI Can't See You, Buyers Won't Either: The New Rules of B2B Sales

In this special bonus episode of CX Files, Peter Ryan turns the microphone on his co-host Mark Hillary to discuss Mark's latest book, If AI Can't See You, You Don't Exist: How B2B Sales Changed Forever. Mark explains how AI platforms such as ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude are transforming the earliest stages of the buying journey. Potential clients are now using AI to define their problems, compare solutions, investigate suppliers, and create shortlists—often before a salesperson knows that an opportunity exists.

The central message is that content can no longer be treated as a minor marketing activity. Original articles, interviews, podcasts, case studies, and executive insights have become part of a company's sales infrastructure: the public evidence AI systems use when deciding which businesses to recommend. Mark and Peter also explore why generic, automatically generated content is unlikely to build authority, why valuable material must be publicly accessible rather than hidden behind paywalls, and why podcasts and videos should be supported by transcripts that AI platforms can read.

Mark shares a striking example of ChatGPT recommending an earlier CX Files interview when asked about the impact of AI on contact centres—demonstrating how credible expert conversations can directly influence AI-generated answers. The episode offers a practical introduction to the book's central warning: companies that fail to make their genuine expertise visible may disappear from the buyer's consideration before the formal sales process has even begun.

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/markhillary/

https://www.carnabysp.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Cant-See-You-Dont-Exist-ebook/dp/B0H4M7F44P

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Send Mark Hillary a direct message on LinkedIn with your email address if you want to receive a free PDF copy of the book - or feel free to go and order a copy via Amazon if you prefer a "real" book.

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Summary:

Peter Ryan and Mark Hillary discuss Mark's new book, "If AI Can't See You, You Don't Exist," which explores the transformative impact of AI on sales and marketing, particularly in BPOs. Mark highlights how AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude are changing client behavior, emphasizing the need for high-quality content to engage AI systems. Peter shares examples of using AI for event planning and content accessibility. They stress the importance of visibility in AI-driven marketing and offer listeners a free PDF of Mark's book upon request. The conversation underscores the evolving landscape of sales and marketing strategies influenced by AI.

Jessica Pleffken is the founder and CEO of Pleffken & Marvulle Marketing. Ana Marvulle is co-founder and managing partner. Jessica and Ana both have a long history working inside CX and BPO companies and now their specialist marketing company advises companies working in the CX environment. Both Jessica and Ana are based in São Paulo, Brazil.

Jessica and Ana explain why the traditional separation between marketing and sales no longer works. BPO buyers now conduct extensive research before contacting a provider, using LinkedIn, client referrals and AI platforms such as ChatGPT, Claude and Perplexity to compare companies and build shortlists. Marketing must therefore do more than generate leads: it must establish trust, demonstrate operational capability and ensure that the company presents a clear, consistent and credible story across its website, content, sales materials and public reputation.

The conversation explores how sales, marketing and operations can work as a single growth system with shared priorities and metrics. Jessica and Ana also argue that BPO companies need stronger client advocacy, genuine case studies and evidence of results rather than generic claims. Their final advice is simple: write for customers rather than industry peers, avoid unnecessary jargon and explain clearly what the company actually does. In an AI-driven buying environment, the providers that communicate with the greatest clarity and credibility will be the easiest to discover - and the easiest to trust.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicapleffken/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-carvalhom/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/pleffken-marvulle-marketing-bpo

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/one-outsources-company-theyve-never-heard-jessica-pleffken-hosti-1na9f/

WhatsApp

Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the evolving landscape of customer experience (CX) and marketing in the business process outsourcing (BPO) industry. They highlight the importance of integrating marketing and sales due to changes in client behavior, particularly the increased use of AI for shortlisting BPOs. Jessica Pleffken and Anna Marvulle from P&M Marketing in São Paulo emphasize the need for a unified growth system, shared metrics, and simple, clear communication to build trust and credibility. They stress the importance of aligning marketing and sales strategies, understanding client needs, and maintaining consistent messaging to enhance brand reputation and client acquisition.

Peter Ryan speaks with Tugs Smith and Adrian Smith, co-founders of ATAC Global CX in Oshawa, Ontario, about the launch of the Certified Remote Service Agent certification. The discussion explores why remote contact center work now needs a trusted global standard, how agents can prove they are ready to handle real customer interactions from home, and why resumes and interviews are no longer enough.

Tugs and Adrian explain how the CRSA combines written assessment, live call simulation, and blockchain verification to create a portable credential for work-from-home CX professionals. They also discuss how certification can help agents stand out, reduce hiring risk for employers, and give BPOs a stronger signal of quality when competing for new business.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tugssmith/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriansmith-atac/

https://atacglobalcx.com/

Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the CRSA (Certified Remote Service Agent) program developed by Tugs and Adrian Smith of ATAC, a work-from-home company in Canada. The CRSA is a blockchain-verified accreditation for remote customer service agents, ensuring they can handle complex interactions effectively. The program includes a written assessment and a live voice call simulation, evaluating agents on professionalism, communication, CX operations, technology, health and safety, and compliance. The dynamic and randomized nature of the evaluation ensures agents are tested on their real-time problem-solving skills. The CRSA aims to improve service standards and reduce hiring risks, benefiting both businesses and agents.

Your contact center may be one of the most valuable targets in the enterprise supply chain.

Peter Ryan speaks with Muhammad Yahya Patel, Cybersecurity Advisor at Huntress, about why cybersecurity has become a critical issue for CX leaders, contact centers, and BPO providers. He is based in Blackburn in the UK.

Muhammad Yahya Patel explains why CX operations are attractive targets for cybercriminals, how outsourcers can become vulnerable points in the enterprise supply chain, and why customer data makes these environments so valuable to attackers. The conversation explores identity as the new security perimeter, the risks of underinvestment, the difference between compliance and genuine cyber resilience, and why CX organizations need proactive partners rather than just more tools.

This episode is a timely reminder that cybersecurity is no longer just an IT concern. It is now central to customer trust, operational resilience, and the future of CX delivery.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mypi/

https://www.huntress.com/

Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the importance of cybersecurity in CX delivery, highlighting the vulnerabilities of CX operations within the supply chain. They reference a report by IBM, noting the average cost of a cyber attack cleanup is $5 million, which can be catastrophic for small and medium-sized businesses. Muhammad Yahya Patel from Huntress Labs emphasizes the need for proactive cybersecurity measures, advocating for partnerships that provide tailored solutions rather than just tool purchases. Patel also stresses the importance of continuous cyber resilience and compliance with evolving regulations. The conversation underscores the critical role of cybersecurity in maintaining business continuity and reputation.

Donald Berryman is the Founder & Managing Director at ProfectusCX. He is based in Florida, USA.

Don writes a LinkedIn newsletter called The CX Advisor Perspective. He recently published several newsletters focused on how the enterprise to BPO relationship needs to develop - to bridge new AI technology use and also to change how BPOs charge for their services.

Mark Hillary called Don to explore the issues he raised and how he sees the future of the bridge between the enterprise and BPO and the RFP supplier selection process.

ProfectusCX

https://profectuscx.com/

Don Berryman - LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-berryman/

The CX Advisor Perspective

https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/the-cx-advisor-perspective-7460298175136911361/

Summary

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the evolving CX landscape with Don Berryman, an advisor at Bain and founder of ProfectusCX. Berryman's LinkedIn newsletter, "The CX Advisor Perspective," highlights the need for both BPOs and enterprises to adapt to AI technology. He argues that enterprises must move beyond outdated procurement methods and focus on strategic AI investments to improve customer experience. Berryman emphasizes the shift from headcount-based pricing to outcome-based models, such as per resolved issue or CSAT. He also stresses the importance of co-managed contact centers and the need for BPOs to invest in strategic people and technology to stay competitive.

Lara Klick is the Founder and President of Klick Advisors LLC. She is based in Tampa Bay, Florida, USA.

Klick Advisors is a trust-centered consulting practice that helps healthcare leaders and teams navigate high-stakes moments with clarity, empathy, and courage.

Lara heard our episode from March where Melanie Disse explored why companies ask for feedback, but don't use it. She suggested that this subject could be explored futther with a focus on healtcare and the Patient Experience - so Mark Hillary called Lara to explore feedback, PX, and designing better healthcare experiences.

Lara has already recently published a new book titled 'Simple Doesn't Mean Easy' - entirely focused on improving patient experience.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lara-klick/

https://klickadvisors.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Doesnt-Mean-Easy-Improvement/dp/B0GY47KDF2

https://cxfiles.libsyn.com/cxfiles/melanie-disse-melanie-disse-consulting-acting-on-customer-feedback

Summary:

Lara Klick, founder of Klick Advisors, discusses the importance of acting on customer feedback, particularly in healthcare. She highlights that healthcare organizations often collect vast amounts of data but struggle to utilize it effectively. Klick emphasizes the need for specialized leaders, a supportive culture, and personalized data delivery. She shares an example where gamification increased nurse compliance from 25% to 75% in three weeks. Klick also stresses the significance of treating complaints as opportunities and co-designing improvements with patients. Her book, "Simple Doesn't Mean Easy," offers insights from her 30 years of experience in healthcare feedback.

The BPO Industry Isn't Dying. But It May Need to Reinvent Itself Faster Than Anyone Expected. Yuma AI CEO Guillaume Luccisano argues that customer experience providers must evolve from labor arbitrage specialists into AI orchestrators and systems integrators—or risk becoming irrelevant.

For years, critics of the business process outsourcing industry have predicted its demise. First it was robotic process automation. Then conversational AI. Then Generative AI. Yet the industry survived every previous wave of disruption because technology changed the way work was delivered rather than eliminating the need for the service itself.

In episode 420 of the CX Files, Guillaume talks to Mark Hillary about these changes and how BPOs may need to adapt.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaumeluccisano/

https://yuma.ai/

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Summary:

Mark Hillary and Peter Ryan discuss the impact of AI on the BPO industry, featuring Guillaume Luccisano, CEO of Yuma AI. Luccisano argues that traditional BPO models are outdated, emphasizing AI's potential to automate 100% of customer service within 2-3 years. He highlights Yuma AI's success in deploying AI agents since 2023, achieving automation rates up to 89%. Luccisano predicts a significant shift in the job market due to AI, suggesting BPOs must evolve into systems integrators to survive. He also notes the cost efficiency of AI, with interactions costing under $1 compared to $4-$8 for human agents.

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The BPO Industry Isn't Dying. But It May Need to Reinvent Itself Faster Than Anyone Expected. Yuma AI CEO Guillaume Luccisano argues that customer experience providers must evolve from labor arbitrage specialists into AI orchestrators and systems integrators—or risk becoming irrelevant.

For years, critics of the business process outsourcing industry have predicted its demise.

First it was robotic process automation. Then conversational AI. Then Generative AI.

Yet the industry survived every previous wave of disruption because technology changed the way work was delivered rather than eliminating the need for the service itself.

But according to Guillaume Luccisano, founder and CEO of Yuma AI, this time may be different.

Speaking on Episode 420 of the CX Files podcast, Luccisano argued that the traditional BPO model—selling customer service through large pools of human agents—is facing a challenge unlike anything it has encountered before.

His view is stark: AI is no longer just helping agents do their jobs better. It is increasingly capable of doing the job itself.

And if that trend continues, the industry will need to redefine its purpose.

The End of the "Cost Per Interaction" Era

Luccisano's company specializes in AI-powered customer service automation for retail and e-commerce brands. He claims some clients are already automating the vast majority of customer interactions.

What has changed, he argues, is that AI is no longer limited to answering questions from a knowledge base.

Modern AI agents can access customer records, understand context, follow workflows, execute transactions, and complete tasks.

In other words, they are moving beyond information retrieval and into operational execution.

This matters because the traditional BPO business model has largely been built around charging for human effort—whether measured in agents, hours, seats, or interactions.

If AI can handle increasing volumes of customer contacts at a fraction of the cost, then the economics begin to shift dramatically.

A contact that once required several dollars of human labor may eventually be resolved for a few cents in computing costs.

Even if those figures are debated, the direction of travel is becoming difficult to ignore.

The Problem Isn't Technology. It's Incentives.

One of Luccisano's most interesting observations is that many outsourcing providers are already talking extensively about AI.

The question is whether they are deploying AI to genuinely transform operations or merely adding enough AI to satisfy customer demand while protecting existing revenue streams.

That creates an uncomfortable tension.

A provider whose business depends on thousands of agents has little incentive to aggressively deploy technology that could reduce the number of agents required.

As Luccisano noted, many providers find themselves caught between serving today's business model and preparing for tomorrow's.

The challenge is not technical.

It is organizational.

And perhaps even existential.

Why Investors Are Nervous

The sharp decline in the share prices of several publicly traded CX providers has fuelled speculation about the sector's future.

Luccisano believes investors are not simply reacting to hype.

They are attempting to price in a future where customer service becomes significantly more automated, more efficient, and therefore less dependent on large labor-intensive operations.

Whether investors have overreacted remains open to debate.

But the market is clearly asking a difficult question:

What happens to a company built around managing tens of thousands of customer service agents when customers increasingly expect AI-driven efficiency?

The answer remains uncertain.

But it is a question every provider now has to confront.

The Hidden Complexity Most Critics Ignore

To his credit, Luccisano does not dismiss the value that BPOs create today.

Customer interactions are only one piece of a much larger operational puzzle.

Large CX providers manage compliance requirements, regulatory obligations, security controls, multilingual operations, workforce management, governance frameworks, quality assurance, and complex integrations across dozens of markets.

Replacing an individual customer service interaction with AI is one thing.

Replacing the entire operational framework surrounding customer service is something else entirely.

This is where many simplistic predictions about the "death of BPO" fall apart.

The institutional knowledge accumulated by major outsourcing firms still has value.

The question is whether that value can be repackaged.

From Outsourcer to Systems Integrator

Perhaps the most important idea from the conversation was Luccisano's belief that the future role of the BPO may look less like a labor provider and more like a systems integrator.

Rather than selling headcount, providers could sell expertise.

Rather than managing agents, they could manage AI agents.

Rather than staffing operations, they could design, orchestrate, govern, optimize, and continuously improve AI-enabled customer experience ecosystems.

This is a subtle but profound shift.

It moves the provider higher up the value chain.

The emphasis shifts from execution to orchestration.

From labor to outcomes.

From workforce management to intelligent systems management.

Ironically, this would bring some BPOs closer to the role that companies like IBM, Accenture, and other major technology integrators evolved into years ago.

A Difficult Transition

The challenge, of course, is that transformation is easier to describe than to execute.

Reinventing a startup is one thing.

Reinventing a global organization employing hundreds of thousands of people is another.

Many of today's largest CX providers are highly successful businesses with established customer relationships and predictable revenue streams.

That success can become a barrier to change.

The dilemma is obvious.

How aggressively should a company invest in technologies that could cannibalize its own business?

History suggests that incumbents often struggle with precisely this problem.

The Bigger Question

Perhaps the most controversial part of Luccisano's argument extends beyond outsourcing entirely.

He believes AI is creating a broader economic transformation that will affect many knowledge-based professions, not just customer service.

Software engineering, consulting, administration, legal services, and customer experience are all beginning to feel the effects.

If he is right, then the debate is no longer about whether AI will change customer service.

The debate is about how quickly institutions can adapt to a world where intelligence itself becomes abundant and inexpensive.

The Future May Belong to the Adaptable

The most important takeaway from this discussion is not that BPOs are doomed.

In fact, Luccisano repeatedly acknowledged that some providers will survive and potentially thrive.

But survival may depend on abandoning the assumption that customer service is primarily a labor business.

The providers that succeed could be those that become trusted advisors, AI operators, governance experts, and systems integrators.

The providers that fail may be those that continue selling people when customers increasingly want outcomes.

The outsourcing industry has reinvented itself before.

The question now is whether it can do so again—at the speed AI demands.

David Rickard is a partner at Everest Group. He is based in the UK.

David recently visited Ethiopia for the Elevate Africa event. In this conversation with Peter Ryan David gives his take on Ethiopia and Africa more generally for CX and BPO.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwrickard/

https://www.everestgrp.com/

https://www.weelevateafrica.org/

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Africa has been talked about as "the next big thing" in outsourcing for at least two decades. South Africa became a serious global CX delivery location. Egypt built a powerful multilingual BPO proposition. Kenya, Ghana, Rwanda, and several other markets are now attracting attention as buyers look beyond the traditional offshore giants.

But Ethiopia is starting to enter the conversation in a more serious way.

In Episode 419 of CX Files, Peter Ryan interviewed David Rickard, a partner at Everest Group, shortly after David returned from the Elevate Africa conference in Ethiopia. The conversation was valuable because David was not offering a promotional pitch. As an analyst, his job is to look at both sides of the equation: the opportunity and the obstacles.