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The mortgage industry has a bad habit of taking new technology and forcing it to fit processes that should have been rebuilt years ago.

AI can make that mess move faster. It can also give us an opportunity to rethink how mortgage origination should work from the ground up.

In this episode of The Mortgage AI Podcast, I sit down with Oren Michaely, CEO and co-founder of Elio Mortgage.

Oren worked at Microsoft Research and helped with the Microsoft and OpenAI collaboration before ChatGPT was released to the public. He later worked at Motive Partners, where his job was to help financial services companies use AI to create measurable business value.

Then he left the comfortable corporate world and entered the beautifully complicated mortgage industry.

Why mortgage?

Oren saw an industry that has spent decades trying to scale by adding more people, more systems, and more layers. Loan officers work across lender portals, CRMs, LOS platforms, pricing engines, email, text messages, phone calls, and spreadsheets.

Every handoff creates another chance for information to disappear or a mistake to happen.

Elio is building an agentic mortgage company where AI operates as an invisible layer beneath the people. The loan officer becomes the air traffic controller of the transaction while the platform handles much of the repetitive work required to move the file forward.

That includes dynamic borrower applications, automatic document requests, document classification, income calculations, pre-filled applications, pricing, guideline searches, pre-approvals, and communication throughout the loan process.

A DSCR borrower, for example, should never waste time answering questions about personal income that have nothing to do with the loan. The application should understand the scenario and request only the information needed to move forward.

The same intelligence can help loan officers manage their entire book of business. Elio’s platform is being built to identify refinance opportunities, improve outreach to Clients and referral partners, and use data to help loan officers decide who to contact and why.

I called it portfolio intelligence during our conversation. Oren and his team are building a workspace that understands the loan officer’s business and helps them manage it without stitching together 14 different tools.

We also break down how to build an AI agent without creating a digital employee that has no idea what the hell it is doing.

Oren recommends breaking a process into small units of work.

Give the AI one specific task. Validate the result. Keep a human involved while you refine it. Then connect that task to the next step in the process.

Telling ChatGPT to “build me a transaction coordinator” skips every important detail the system needs to perform the job correctly.

In this episode, we cover:

• Oren’s work with Microsoft and OpenAI before ChatGPT
• Why he chose the mortgage industry
• What an agentic mortgage company looks like
• Why outdated processes limit the value of new technology
• How to break workflows into units of work
• The importance of keeping humans involved during development
• Why data remains the biggest obstacle to reliable mortgage AI
• How Elio is rebuilding the LOS around an AI-ready data structure
• Dynamic applications and automated document collection
• Using AI to pre-calculate income and prepare files for review
• Giving loan officers intelligence across their entire portfolio
• Why complex vibe-coded backends can create serious security risks
• What a headless mortgage platform could look like
• How loan officers can begin experimenting with AI this week

Oren’s advice for getting started is simple: spend two or three hours working with the technology.

Tell the model what you do. Explain your role. Ask it where you may be wasting time or creating unnecessary work. Choose one process and build something small enough to test.

You do not need an engineering team to begin understanding what is possible. You need curiosity, a clear goal, and enough time with the tool to move beyond the basic prompt window.

00:00 Podcast Welcome
01:19 Meet Oren
01:38 AI Career Journey
06:45 Why Mortgages
09:46 Building Agentic Workflows
16:06 Data Context Challenge
20:20 Elio Platform Vision
22:02 Automated Doc Intake
22:33 Instant Preapproval Workflow
23:07 Loan Officer Leverage
24:03 Refi Radar Integrations
24:46 Pricing Guidelines Engine
25:34 Portfolio Intelligence Platform
27:35 Stealth Launch Iteration
30:06 AI Hub Future UI
34:37 Security Compliance Focus
35:05 Rapid Fire AI Takes
37:17 Hands On AI Advice
38:42 Closing Thanks Outro

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Most mortgage professionals are using AI to write emails, create social posts, summarize documents, and complete a few isolated tasks faster.

Jonathon Haddad is building it into the operating system of his business and his life.

In this episode of The Mortgage AI Podcast, Jonathon shows me an AI-powered neural network that connects his text messages, emails, meetings, social media conversations, contacts, and tasks. It remembers conversations, updates his to-do list, and prepares him before meetings.

His goal is simple:

“How can I get my brain onto this document so I never have to think about that again?”

That is a much bigger conversation than prompting ChatGPT to write better marketing copy.

Jonathon is also building Bevri, a platform designed to combine the CRM, LOS, and POS into one experience for mortgage brokers. The goal is to let loan officers manage their files without bouncing between 30, 40, or 50 different lender portals and disconnected systems.

We also get candid about the part of mortgage AI that far too many people are ignoring: security.

Mortgage companies and loan officers are building tools through vibe coding without understanding databases, permissions, compliance, or how to protect personally identifiable information. Jonathon has already found mortgage websites exposing Client names and email addresses.

That mistake can lead to regulatory problems, expensive forensic audits, and serious damage to the entire broker channel.

Then there is the cost of building with AI.

Jonathon explains how companies can burn through tens of thousands of dollars in token usage because someone selected the most powerful AI model for work that never required it. His own automation platform once cost approximately $40 per day to operate. Through optimization, his team reduced that expense to around $40 every four days.

Knowing when to build, when to buy, and which model to use has become an operating decision. Guessing can get expensive fast.

We also look ahead to the mortgage company of 2030.

Jonathon believes technology will allow processors to handle twice as many transactions and underwriters to manage four times their current volume. Standard mortgage files could reach clear to close in seven days or less, with much of the process completed without a traditional conversation with a loan officer.

There will still be humans in the system. There will simply be fewer seats for people whose only value comes from completing mechanical tasks.

In this episode, we cover:

• The difference between using AI and creating real leverage
• Why the broker channel remains years behind retail technology
• Jonathon’s vision for Bevri
• How his AI system remembers conversations and manages tasks
• The danger of exposing Client information through vibe-coded tools
• Why SOC 2 compliance and database security matter
• The hidden cost of AI tokens
• How to decide whether to build or buy AI technology
• What the mortgage company of 2030 could look like
• Why cash-out refinances and HELOCs may surprise the industry
• Which AI tools Jonathon believes are overhyped
• The one childhood experience he believes you should bring back into your life

If you lead a mortgage company, pay close attention to the conversation about PII and AI governance.

If you originate loans, look at your current workflow. Where are you still relying on memory? Where are you repeatedly stopping to find information? Where are disconnected systems eating up your day?

Those are the places where AI can create meaningful leverage.

00:00 Welcome and Feedback
01:19 Introducing Jonathan Haddad
02:06 Why This AI Conversation
03:29 Building Bevri Platform
04:09 Broker Tech Pain Points
07:10 Industry Misreads AI
10:07 Underestimating Data Power
12:22 AI in Daily Life
14:34 Usage Versus Leverage
16:12 Neural Network Rolodex
19:12 Palantir and Big Picture
20:51 Thinking Space with AI
21:37 AI as Memory Boost
22:40 Mortgage Tech Mindset
24:18 Vibe Coding Risks
27:11 Build vs Buy Costs
28:14 Token Spend Control
30:52 Mortgage 2030 Vision
33:42 Humans Still Matter
35:08 Rapid Fire AI Takes
37:31 Protect PII Always
38:23 Closing Joy Challenge

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Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

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Friends of the Program: Empower LO

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Frazier welcomes Michael McAlister as a co-host on the Mortgage AI Podcast and explains the transition from The MLO Project to focus on AI. 

They discuss the difference between “AI agents” (a tool that automates specific tasks) and “agentic AI” (an approach where AI is embedded with autonomy across business functions). Miguel describes moving beyond prompt-based assistants to workflows where AI monitors stages, reviews files, drafts communications, and updates systems, which requires standardized inputs, documented rules, and oversight similar to managing employees. 

He shares using scheduled routines that run early daily and email HTML reports for ad management, pipeline signals, and weekly newsletter drafting with approval. They note tools change rapidly, urging focus on business outcomes over chasing tools. Rapid fire: underhyped tools Fathom and Aila; overhyped GPT Work; most annoying AI talk is “build your own” piecemeal tools.

00:00 Welcome Back Maestro
01:31 Why This Podcast Exists
02:42 Agents Versus Agentic
05:29 From Tasks To Workflows
11:18 Managing AI Employees
13:39 Routines And Reports
18:54 Tool Overload Reality
21:14 Think Business Not Tools
27:54 GrokBot Setup And Cost
29:19 Rapid Fire AI Takes
32:21 Final Thoughts And Outro

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

Founding Sponsor: MortgageCon

Broker Sponsor: Summit Lending

Friends of the Program: Empower LO

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How Jason Kindler Uses AI to Create Real Leverage in Mortgage

In the first guest episode of the Mortgage AI Podcast, Frazier interviews mortgage broker owner and producing LO Jason Kindler of First Coast Mortgage Funding (400–500M annually) about what the mortgage industry misunderstands about AI and how to use it for real business leverage. Jason says most people still see AI as prompting for images, are distracted by shiny objects, or are afraid to dabble, and he emphasizes starting with a clear objective. He shares practical use cases: building value-first tools to attract realtors (like a headshot/thumbnail generator and marketing tools for new construction agents), creating operational efficiencies such as an email/notification digest, and developing an AI loan officer assistant to automate borrower communication and document work. They discuss how fast tools are evolving, why “Claude vs ChatGPT” debates are noise, and why communication and relationships become more valuable as AI advances.

00:00 Welcome and First Guest
01:14 Meet Jason Kindler
02:40 AI Misconceptions and Fear
04:20 From Prompts to Leverage
06:44 Using AI for Marketing
10:17 Start Date and Tool Hopping
11:42 Building Realtor Value Apps
14:48 Operational Wins and Cash Flow
16:07 AI Tools Evolving Fast
19:16 Vibe Coding and ROI Focus
21:58 Tool Overload Reality
24:25 Start Small With AI
25:48 Best ROI Automations
29:25 Record Everything Workflow
30:55 Rapid Fire AI Takes
35:03 Next Steps And Wrap

Connect with Jason Kindler

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

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Stop Paying $40 to Win $1: Avoid Rent-Seeking With AI in Mortgage

In the first episode of the Mortgage AI Podcast, Frazier introduces the transition from the MLO Project to the Mortgage AI Podcast and explains his goal of helping loan officers use AI to create real leverage, not just surface-level hype. 

He shares a game-theory example from economist Martin Shubik’s 1971 “$1 bill auction,” where rational bidding escalates until people pay far more than the prize a dynamic described as rent-seeking: spending time, money, energy, and effort to chase a reward that can’t justify the cost. 

Frazier warns that many loan officers are doing this with AI tools and subscriptions without clear ROI or customer demand, citing an example of a loan officer whose production declined despite heavy automation efforts. He urges a strategy-first approach, often starting simply with ChatGPT, and previews next episode guest Jason Kindler.

00:00 Welcome to Mortgage AI
00:40 Podcast Mission and Guests
01:23 The 40 Dollars for 1 Dollar Idea
02:26 The Dollar Auction Explained
05:04 Why We Refuse to Lose
06:24 Rent Seeking and AI Hype
08:09 ROI Over Shiny Tools
11:56 AI Moves Fast Stay Focused
13:02 Simple Stack Start with ChatGPT
14:42 Sponsors and Listener Feedback
15:46 Closing and Next Episode

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Episode Zero: Transitioning Growth Notes From The MLO Project to The Mortgage AI Podcast

Frazier announces the final episode of The MLO Project and introduces “episode zero” of The Mortgage AI Podcast, explaining that Growth Notes is pivoting to focus on where the mortgage industry is going and how to create the most impact with AI. Past episodes will remain available, and episode one of the new show launches September 1. Michael will still appear and also run some episodes, sharing firsthand experience from AI projects he’s building, while Frazier drives production and direction. The podcast will emphasize leveraging AI—not just using it—cutting through bad information, noise, and sales agendas, and exploring topics like build vs. buy with guests from mortgage and outside the industry. Frazier invites listener feedback and AI use cases, and thanks sponsors MortgageCon (founding), Summit Lending (broker), Different Coaching (presenter), and Empower LO.

MAP is presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

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Google Ads are not dead.

But the cheap-lead fantasy needs to be.

Michael and Frazier dig into the real state of Google Ads, search intent, and mortgage lead generation in today’s market. This episode picks up right after the “Be the Answer” conversation and looks at the other side of the same coin: paid search, consumer-direct funnels, and what actually makes a lead worth chasing.

Michael breaks down what has changed since the low-cost lead days, why cost per lead is one of the most misleading numbers in mortgage marketing, and how personalization, landing page consistency, and follow-up strategy can make or break a campaign.

Because a $3 lead that never converts is not a deal.

It is a distraction.

And if your funnel does not match the promise that got someone to click in the first place, you are paying for attention you are not ready to convert.

What You’ll Learn

• Why Google Ads are still valuable, but harder than they used to be
• How lead costs have changed from the early consumer-direct days to now
• Why landing page conversion rate matters just as much as cost per click
• How personalization can lower cost per lead and improve response rates
• Why intent matters more than raw lead volume
• What questions LOs should ask before hiring a lead gen partner

Real Talk Quotes:

• “The timeless principle of consumer direct is making sure you’re giving the same experience from top to bottom of funnel.”
• “Cost per lead means diddly squat to me.”
• “Intent is everything in mortgage lead generation.”
• “I could get you 50 cent leads today. They’re all going to be shit.”
• “If they don’t communicate any expectations, that’s probably a red flag.”

Tactical Takeaways

✅ Make sure your ad, landing page, follow-up, and offer all match the same message

✅ Stop judging lead programs by cost per lead alone

✅ Focus on intent, quality, and cost per closed loan

✅ Improve landing page conversion before blaming the ad platform

✅ Use personalization in both the landing page and follow-up experience

✅ Ask any agency what they expect from you in order to make the campaign successful

The Big Idea

Cheap leads are not the goal.

Closed loans are the goal.

Too many loan officers get distracted by the headline number and ignore the things that actually matter:

• Intent
• Conversion
• Follow-up
• Funnel consistency
• Cost per customer

Google Ads still work.

But they only work when the entire system is built to convert the person who clicked.

The Reality Check

The market is already hard.

Why make it harder by:

• Buying low-intent leads because they look cheap
• Sending traffic to generic mortgage pages
• Ignoring the follow-up experience after the form fill

A lead is not just a name, email, and phone number.

It is a person who clicked for a reason.

Your job is to continue that conversation.

Match the message.

Respect the intent.

Track the real cost.

Find out more at Empower LO

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The old internet rewarded people who knew how to get found.

The new one is going to reward the people who become the answer.

Frazier and Michael are back on the MLO Project, and they are coming in direct, tactical, and very clear on where mortgage content is headed next. The conversation centers on Frazier’s shift toward helping loan officers become the answer in their local markets, not just another name trying to rank, post, or compete with the biggest players online.

For years, loan officers played in the search economy.

Google something.

Scroll through results.

Click around.

Hope the answer is somewhere in the mess.

But AI is changing that behavior. Consumers are not just searching anymore. They are asking better questions and expecting direct answers. And if your content is not structured to answer those questions, you are already playing the old game.

This episode breaks down what the “answer economy” means, why hyperlocal content matters, how AEO is different from traditional SEO, and why loan officers have a real land grab opportunity right now if they move before everyone else catches up.

Because you are not going to outspend Zillow, Rocket, Redfin, or the bigs.

But you can out-answer them.

What You’ll Learn

• Why the internet is shifting from the search economy to the answer economy
• Why loan officers need to answer real consumer questions, not just post generic mortgage content
• How hyperlocal blogs can create organic leads without being directly mortgage-related
• Why AEO and SEO are connected, but not the same thing
• How structured question-and-answer content helps both Google and AI understand your authority
• Why this is a “time machine moment” for LOs who want to build local authority early

Real Talk Quotes:

• “You need to be the answer.”
• “You are not going to outspend Zillow.”
• “You’re not going to outgeneralize them.”
• “This is a land grab opportunity.”
• “Don’t talk yourself out of this opportunity.”

Tactical Takeaways

✅ Stop creating generic mortgage content that tries to compete with everyone

✅ Build content around specific questions buyers and movers are already asking

✅ Use AI research tools to uncover hyperlocal questions in your market

✅ Structure your blogs around direct answers, FAQs, and internal linking

✅ Think beyond mortgage topics and become a trusted local authority

✅ Move now while most loan officers are still stuck in old-internet content strategy

The Big Idea

Search is not dead.

But search is changing.

Consumers do not want more results.

They want the answer.

And the loan officers who understand that shift early will have a massive advantage.

Not because they have the biggest budget.

Because they are creating the clearest, most useful answers in their market.

The Reality Check

The market is already hard.

Why make it harder by:

• Playing the same content game as everyone else
• Posting generic loan program content nobody is searching for
• Waiting until the big companies dominate this space too

The opportunity is not to become louder.

It is to become more useful.

Answer the questions.

Own the local market.

Build authority before everyone else realizes what is happening.

Find out more at Empower LO or BrokerFuel.

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

Founding Sponsor: MortgageCon

Broker Sponsor: Summit Lending

Friends of the Program: Empower LO

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AI is moving fast.

Most mortgage teams are still trying to figure out what actually matters.

Frazier and Michael sit down with Chris Nielson at the High Table Mastermind in Myrtle Beach to talk about the real role of AI inside a broker business.

Not the hype.

Not the buzzwords.

The actual use cases that buy back time, simplify operations, and help LOs focus on revenue-producing work.

Chris breaks down how his team is using technology to create an unfair advantage, from AI-assisted business plans to open house tools, better follow-up systems, and more consistent customer experiences.

Because the win is not replacing people with AI.

It is removing the busy work so your people can do the human work better.

What You’ll Learn

• Why AI should be used to buy back time, not replace relationships
• How Chris Nielson is using technology to give LOs an unfair advantage
• Why the human element still matters most in mortgage
• How AI can change operations without eliminating the need for great people
• Why leaders should build tools around proven business needs, not random ideas
• How Chris is using AI to create open house tools, business plans, and better customer experiences

Real Talk Quotes:

• “Don’t kill yourself learning technology. Just be ready for the technology that’s coming your way.”
• “I’m using AI in our business to basically buy back our time.”
• “You can’t lose the human element of it.”
• “If it’s something beneath my personal hourly wage, that’s not a money-making activity.”
• “We’re using AI to build tools to solve problems.”

Tactical Takeaways

✅ Use AI to remove busy work so your team can focus on higher-value conversations

✅ Do not automate the parts of the business that require trust, empathy, and human connection

✅ Look for tasks that drain time but do not need a human touch

✅ Build tools around real problems your team faces every day

✅ Give LOs simple technology they can actually use instead of forcing them to become developers

✅ Use AI to create consistency across the customer experience from lead to close

The Big Idea

• AI is not the strategy.
• Leverage is the strategy.
• The winning teams are not trying to turn every LO into a coder.
• They are using technology to remove friction, tighten the process, and give their people more time to do the work that actually creates revenue.
• Better tools only matter if they help your team execute better.

The Reality Check

The market is already hard.

Why make it harder by:

• Letting your team drown in busy work
• Chasing tools without a clear business problem
• Automating the human parts of the loan process

AI will not save a broken business model.

But it can make a strong one faster, cleaner, and more consistent.

Stop chasing every tool.

Start building real leverage.

Find out more at Empower LO or BrokerFuel.

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

Founding Sponsor: MortgageCon

Broker Sponsor: Summit Lending

Friends of the Program: Empower LO

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This one is for every broker owner who thinks compliance is something they can deal with later.

Frazier and Michael sit down with Jim Bell, the guy who helps brokers handle the stuff most people want to avoid:

👉 Licensing
👉 Compliance
👉 Call reports
👉 State exams
👉 Information security

And Jim makes one thing very clear.

Compliance does not have to be scary.

But ignoring it absolutely can be.

This episode breaks down what state regulators are looking at right now, why messy data can turn into a real problem, how security is becoming a bigger focus, and why broker owners need actual processes instead of random policies sitting in a folder somewhere.

Because when the examiner shows up, “I thought we had that handled” is not a strategy.

What You’ll Learn

• Why compliance should have a process just like your loan files
• What state exams are focusing on right now
• Why call report errors are creating problems for brokers
• How advertising, rate posts, and social media can trigger compliance issues
• Why information security is becoming a bigger deal in mortgage
• What broker owners need to know about offshore VAs and data access

Real Talk Quotes:

• “Compliance does not have to be super scary.”
• “You need to do the same thing for compliance that you do for the perfect loan process.”
• “It’s not enough to have a policy. You have to prove you are following it.”
• “If a state does not say no, that does not automatically mean they are saying yes.”
• “Hopefully today is the worst I’ll ever be.”

Tactical Takeaways

✅ Build a repeatable compliance process for every file, not just your loan process

✅ Keep your call report data clean, organized, and easy to verify

✅ Review your advertising before posting rates, products, or fee-related claims

✅ Put real information security policies in place, then test and document them

✅ If you use offshore VAs, make sure data access, security, and monitoring are covered

✅ Align with your CPA, attorney, and compliance team before making risky compensation decisions

The Big Idea

• Compliance is not the enemy.
• Disorganization is.
• Most broker owners do not get into trouble because they are trying to do the wrong thing.
• They get into trouble because they never built the process to prove they are doing the right thing.
• And when the state asks for proof...
• Your intentions do not matter nearly as much as your documentation.

The Reality Check

The market is already hard.

Why make it harder by:

• Ignoring compliance until exam season
• Posting ads without proper disclosures
• Letting sensitive borrower data move without controls

A written policy does not protect you if no one follows it.

A clean process does.

Better systems.

Cleaner documentation.

Fewer surprises.

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

Founding Sponsor: MortgageCon

Broker Sponsor: Summit Lending

Friends of the Program: Empower LO

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This one is going to make a few LOs uncomfortable.

Frazier and Michael are calling out one of the quietest money leaks in the mortgage business:

👉 Buying tools you don’t fully use
👉 Switching platforms before building a process
👉 Confusing activity with progress
👉 Building “solutions” that don’t actually create revenue

Because here’s the truth:

A new CRM will not fix a lack of discipline.

A custom-built AI tool will not fix weak follow-up.

And spending your weekend vibe coding a calculator does not matter if your pipeline is starving.

This episode breaks down the real cost of tool hopping, half-learning platforms, and chasing every new tech trend before you have built roots in the system already sitting in front of you.

What You’ll Learn

Why switching tools usually exposes a process problem, not a platform problem
 How top producers build roots inside the systems they already use
 Why “I only use 40% of it” is not a reason to jump to something new
 How to measure whether a tech project is actually worth your time
 Why vibe coding can become a distraction for producing loan officers
 How AI is getting easier without requiring every LO to become a developer

Real Talk Quotes:

“If it’s easy for you to switch tools, you probably never put roots down.”
 “You’re probably paying for something right now that you don’t use.”
 “What makes you think the next CRM is going to change your behavior?”
 “The math does not freaking math.”
 “If you are a producing originator trying to get more business in the door, vibe coding is a waste of time.”

Tactical Takeaways

✅ Audit what you are already paying for before buying another platform
 ✅ Commit to one system long enough to actually build a process around it
 ✅ Spend focused time learning the tool before blaming the tool
 ✅ Calculate the real hourly cost before building something just to save a few dollars
 ✅ Use AI to create leverage, not another excuse to avoid prospecting
 ✅ Protect your revenue-generating time: calls, follow-up, referrals, and conversion

The Big Idea

The next tool is not the breakthrough.

The breakthrough is using one tool well enough to build a real system.

Most LOs are not stuck because the software is broken.

They are stuck because they keep starting over.

The Reality Check

The market is already hard.

Why make it harder by:

Buying tools without using them
 Switching platforms every few months
 Calling distraction “innovation”

You do not need another login.

Presented by: DIFRNT Coaching

Founding Sponsor: MortgageCon

Broker Sponsor: Summit Lending

Friends of the Program: Empower LO