Future U Podcast
Jeff Selingo and Michael Horn
Jeff Selingo and Michael Horn discuss what’s next for higher ed and talk with the newsmakers you want to hear from most.
- 42 minutes 47 secondsWill a Flood of Credentials Threaten the Four-Year Degree?
Colleges and other providers have flooded the market with non-degree credentials in the past decade. But a recent analysis shows that only one in three credentials bring meaningful returns for graduates. Jeff and Michael talk with Matt Sigelman, president of the Burning Glass Institute, who is working to provide data to consumers and policymakers about the ROI of non-degree credentials. Given many of the returns of credentials come to those with traditional degrees already, the future of the degree and credentials are inextricably tied together. This episode is supported exclusively by Ascendium Education Group.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
1:21 - Creating a Way to Measure Real-Time Labor Market Data
3:15 - Charting an Explosion of Non-Degree Credentials
7:14 - Helping Consumers Find Which Credentials Have Value
11:36 - What is the ROI of Non-Degree Credentials?
12:51 - How Could the Data on These Credentials Be Improved?
14:20 - The Challenge of Getting Data to Consumers
18:38 - Will Better Data Push Providers to Improve Degree Offerings?
20:52 - How Will Non-Degree Credentials Impact the Four-Year Degree?
24:25 - Sponsor Break
25:38 - Why Creating Measurement Tools Takes So Long
27:49 - New Credentials Could Increase the Value of the Four-Year Degree
30:02 - Providing Data Doesn’t Mean Students Will Use It
35:06 - Addressing the ‘AI Paralysis' in Hiring
39:53 - Lightning Round With Matt Sigelman
Relevant Links
“Counting Credentials 2025 Report,” by the nonprofit Credential Engine.
Credential Value Index Navigator by The Burning Glass Institute.
Education Quality Outcome Standards (EQOS), a collaboration of Jobs for the Future and The Burning Glass Institute.
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17 February 2026, 5:00 am - 58 minutes 31 secondsInside the Role of College Trustees During Turbulent Times
College trustees consider more than just the monetary policies of universities. And former Brown University trustee Lauren Zalaznick is out with a new book that aims to humanize these often secretive roles with letters of reflection by Brown board members going back more than 100 years, some of them during other turbulent times in U.S. history. She brings the sensibility from her career as a television executive, when she led the Bravo network as it created The Real Housewives franchise and hits like Project Runway and Top Chef. Jeff and Michael talk to Zalaznick about her new book and her views on how colleges need to reassert their broader social value to meet this moment of crisis for higher ed. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
4:05 - What Led to the Book of Trustee Letters?
6:40 - The Value of Sharing Once-Secret Letters
9:01 - A Reality TV Pioneer’s Interest in University History
11:34 - What Is the Role of University Trustees?
15:40 - The Case for Large University Boards
20:14 - Hearing From a Diversity of Voices
23:52 - From Rabble-Rousers to Trustees
26:42 - How Do College Boards Navigate All Those Diverse Voices?
31:24 - Reflecting on Brown University’s Deal with the Trump Administration
36:58 - Should Every College Adopt the Tradition of Sharing Reflections From Board Members?
41:55 - Sponsor Break
42:43 - How Important Is It That College Board Members Be Alums?
46:45 - Making the Board Feel Like a Team
49:54 - More on Trustees Who As Students Criticized Leadership
52:37 - Getting the Right Mix on a Board
54:03 - How Large Should a Board Be?
Relevant Links
“Letters from the Corporation of Brown University,” edited by Lauren Zalaznick.
“The Affluencer,” profile of Lauren Zalaznick in The New York Times.
“Navigating a Merger as a College Trustee,” past Future U episode.
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4 February 2026, 5:00 am - 42 minutes 20 secondsIs Grade Inflation Deflating Trust in Schools?
To kick off 2026, Jeff and Michael weigh in on some key higher ed issues making headlines these days, starting with a deep dive into grade inflation at the nation’s colleges. A range of sources show that more students are getting A’s even as they are spending less time on schoolwork and deep reading. Meanwhile, AI is raising questions about the validity of college assessments when students can offload their work to chatbots. How can colleges respond? Other issues discussed include whether colleges should change what they teach as employers embrace AI, what types of colleges employers recruit from these days, and recent data on where online learning is most prevalent. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group.
Chapters
0:00 - Introduction
1:34 - Are Those 2026 Coming True?
2:26 - Why Grade Inflation Is a Big Story Now
4:55 - How the Grade Inflation Issue Has Changed Since Al Franken Joked About It in 2002
6:43 - Why Professors Shouldn’t Grade the Students They Teach
8:38 - What If Mastery-Based Learning Upends Grading?
10:43 - Encouraging Students to Focus More on Feedback Than on Grades
12:16 - Has We Become an ‘Accomodations Nation’?
13:09 - Colleges Are Returning to Admissions Tests
15:01 - AI Could Help Admissions Officers Analyze Transcripts
19:17 - Are Elite Colleges Back at the Top of the List for Company Recruiters?
26:28 - Entry Into the Job Market Is Not Linear
27:55 - Sponsor Break
28:36 - What If AI Changes Nothing About What Students Need to Learn?
35:23 - New Data On Who Offers Online-Only Education
Relevant Links:
“Education Secretary Says She Wants to Shift Away From Higher Ed,” by Ryan Quinn in Inside Higher Ed.
“UC San Diego Sees Students’ Math Skills Plummet,” by Emma Whitford in Inside Higher Ed.
“High Grades are Presumably the Goal. So Why is Everyone Freaking Out?” by Michael Horn on Substack.
“Colleges Have Struggled To Curb Grade Inflation. Can Harvard Beat the Odds?” in the Harvard Crimson.
Sen. Al Franken’s 2002 Class Day speech at Harvard, from CSPAN.
“Accommodation Nation,” by Rose Horowitch in The Atlantic.
"Elite Colleges Are Back at the Top of the List for Company Recruiters.” by Lindsay Ellis in The Wall Street Journal.
“AI Changes Nothing About What Students Need to Learn,” by Rick Hess in Education Next.
“Fall 2024 IPEDS Data: Profile of US Higher Ed Online Education,” by Phil Hill In OnEdtech.
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20 January 2026, 5:00 am - 49 minutes 56 secondsWhy Don’t More Colleges Run Co-Op Programs?
Co-op programs are trending these days, with many colleges looking to offer students on-the-job experiences while taking classes. Jeff and Michael talk with Robert McMahan, president of Kettering University, which has a long-running co-op program for all students. He argues that more colleges could incorporate and scale the approach. But there are obstacles, both cultural and logistical. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
1:44 - An Unusual History of a Co-op Model
3:28 - Kettering Presidents’ Path to University Leadership
6:17 - Why Colleges Should Think of Employers as Their Customers
11:23 - Why Colleges Can’t Learn Everything They Need On Campuses
17:17 - How Kettering University’s Co-op Model Differs Than Others
20:44 - Why Isn’t Kettering More Popular?
24:44 - What Is Keeping More Universities From Doing Co-op Programs?
29:30 - Sponsor Break
31:05 - How More Colleges Can Move to a Co-op Model
35:36 - Companies Don’t Have Enough Internships to Meet Demand
39:08 - Could There Be ‘31 Flavors’ of Experiential Learning?
41:50 - Will We See a Return of the Corporate University?
45:52 - Lightning Round With Robert McMahan
Links
“Colleges Teach Learning, but They’re Not Learning How to Survive,” by Robert McMahan in Fortune.
“Former Governor Dishes on Connecting Work and College,” past Future U episode.
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6 January 2026, 5:00 am - 1 hour 40 secondsResist or Reform? Vanderbilt’s Chancellor Speaks Out
Should colleges actively resist the Trump administration or find ways to engage and compromise? Vanderbilt University’s chancellor, Daniel Diermeier, has emerged as a leading example of engagement — facing a mix of cheers and jeers in the academy. Jeff and Michael talked with Diermeier about why he thinks higher education needs to change, and his ambitions to grow his institution’s prestige and research impact. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group.
Relevant Links:
“Live from Milken: One-on-One with Bill Ackman,” preview Future U episode.
“Arizona State’s President Is Pulling Out All the Stops to Get on Trump’s Good Side,” in The New York Times.
“The Elite-University Presidents Who Despise One Another,” in The Atlantic.
“The (Not So) Quiet Schism Among Academic Leaders,” in The Chronicle of Higher Education.
“College-Age Jews Are Heading South,” in The Atlantic.
Chapters
0:00 - Introduction
2:07 - Why Vanderbilt’s Chancellor Stands Out in This Moment
4:46 - Is Vanderbilt Trying to Beat the Ivies?
7:23 - Why Vanderbilt Chose Dialogue With Trump Administration
10:06 - Did Higher Ed Get Too Comfortable?
11:12 - Are Higher Ed Institutions Up to the Challenge of Responding to Trump?
15:22 - What Daniel Diermeier Sees As Most Needed Reform for Higher Ed
17:40 - Will 'Resistance" by Colleges Hurt Federal Funding Broadly?
21:48 - Could the U.S. Lose the Lead In Higher Ed?
23:25 - Why Jewish Students are Flocking to Vanderbilt -
26:58 - A Plan for Expansion to Other Cities
29:03 - Sponsor Break
29:43 - Is Trump the Symptom or Cause of Higher Ed’s Challenges?
34:37 - A Rift Over How to Respond to Skepticism of College
37:40 - How Could the Research Process Be Reformed?
39:41 - The Fallout from October 7 Protests
43:40 - The Challenge of Political Diversity on Campus
49:37 - Can a New Group of Campuses Unseat the Ivy League?
52:06 - The Role of College Athletics in Campus Prestige
53:06 - A Regional Shift in Prominence
57:55 - Lightning Round With Daniel Diermeier
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16 December 2025, 5:00 am - 45 minutes 2 secondsTakeaways from 2025 and Predictions for Next Year
As the year comes to a close, Jeff and Michael step back to review some themes from recent episodes. They home in on how to build innovative campus cultures, and how colleges can respond to AI. And they look ahead, offering predictions for higher ed for 2026. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group, Adobe, and Butler University.
Relevant Links
“A Looming Crisis: New Analysis Shows Dozens of Well-Known Colleges Are Near Financial Trouble,”
Michael Horn and Steven Shulman
"The Financially Sustainable University,"
Jeff Denneen and Tom Dretler
Chapters
0:00 - Introduction
4:22 - A Case for Massive Experimentation
6:30 - Making Shared Governance an Asset
10:00 - Building Innovation Into Campus Culture
11:41 - Lessons From Silicon Valley
13:17 - What Parents Are Asking About AI at Colleges
14:54 - Importance of Experiential Learning
18:40 - How Liberal Arts Can Be Taught Differently in the AI Age
21:11 - Being Creative v. Being a Creator
22:20 - Time for Colleges to Step Back and Strategize About AI
28:00 - New Research Reveals Mid-Size Colleges Could At Financial Risk
33:43 - Understanding the Details of New Student Loan Caps
37:37 - Breaking Down the Latest Enrollment Numbers
40:07 - Michael’s Predictions for 2026
41:56 - Jeff’s Predictions for 2026
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9 December 2025, 5:00 am - 48 minutes 42 secondsRerun: Visiting Bowie State University: HBCUs, Employer Partnerships, and Student Engagement
On the latest stop of Future U.'s campus tour, hosts Michael Horn and Jeff Selingo visit Bowie State University to speak with President Aminta Breaux, as well as faculty and administrators at the Maryland institution about increased enrollment at HBCUs, partnerships with employers, and student engagement. With support from Salesforce.org.
25 November 2025, 5:00 am - 52 minutes 40 secondsNavigating a Merger as a College Trustee
When Marymount Manhattan College’s board of trustees decided last year to merge with Northeastern University, becoming a part of that Boston-based university’s global system, the vote was unanimous. As Jeff and Michael continue their ongoing exploration (some might say obsession) with mergers and acquisitions in higher ed, they talk to one of Marymount Manhattan’s trustees, Abby Fiorella, on this episode to get a board member’s perspective on how mergers can be strategic wins for smaller institutions, as well as key to protecting their core missions. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group.
Relevant Links
“God and Man at Yale,” by William F. Buckley.
"The Abundant University: Remaking Higher Education for a Digital World," by Michael Smith,
Mission statement of Arizona State University
Mission statement of Southern New Hampshire University
“Why a University Proactively Sought a Merger," our other episode this season about M&A in higher ed.
Chapters
0:00 - Why Do We Keep Talking About Mergers?
3:50 - Introducing Our Guest, Abby Fiorella
5:17 - How to Prepare a Board for a Merger
9:19 - Deciding on Institutional Priorities
12:44 - What Is Marymount Manhattan College Doing to Preserve Its Identity?
17:17 - How Can a Board Come to Peace With a Merger?
21:40 - How Can Boards Make Mergers Less Taboo?
24:29 - Reframing Merging As an Opportunity
27:01 - Closing Thoughts From a Trustee
28:54 - Sponsor Break
29:38 - What It Means for a Board to Be Responsible to a Mission
36:21 - How Can Universities Put Mission Statements Into Practice?
38:52 - Why College Mergers Require ‘Courage’
39:21 - Making Time in Board Meetings for Strategic Planning
44:56 - The Role of Communication Between Presidents and Boards in Considering Mergers
47:59 - Why Most Boards Should Set Up Systems to Prepare for an Uncertain Future
48:37 - Lightning Round With Abby Fiorella
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18 November 2025, 5:00 am - 54 minutes 44 secondsPreparing Students for an AI-Infused Workforce
In this special episode recorded live at Adobe’s EduMAX conference, Jeff and Michael explore practical ways to harness AI in higher education to prepare students to be more effective creators. They were joined by a panel of industry and academic experts including Jennifer Sparrow, New York University’s chief academic technology officer; Simon Koh, who has led early career recruiting at Raymond James and KPMG, among other organizations; and Allison Salisbury, founder and CEO of Humanist Venture Studio.
Relevant Links:
“AI Is Not Just Ending Entry-Level Jobs. It’s the End of the Career Ladder as We Know It,” CNBC“
The Rise of AI Will Make Liberal Arts Degrees Popular Again. Here’s Why,” in Inc magazine.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
3:49 - What Is an AI-Ready Graduate?
7:52 - How AI is Changing Early-Career Jobs
11:00 - What Skills and Mindsets Do Students Need?
14:31 - How Colleges Can Increase Experiential Education With Employers
22:19 - What Colleges Do As Employers Pull Back on Internships
28:37 - What is the Purpose of College in an AI World?
34:14 - How the Signaling Power of College Could Change in the AI Era
37:38 - How Students Are Using AI to Create
41:25 - Will AI Bring Resurgence of Liberal Arts?
45:50 - How Creativity is Important Even in the Finance Sector
49:31 - Why AI is More Creative Than Humans
51:40 - What Colleges Can Do in the Next 12 Months
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11 November 2025, 11:45 am - 54 minutes 53 secondsHow States Can Meet the Moment In Higher Ed
In this time of uncertainty and pullback of federal support for higher education, is it time for states to step up and play a greater leadership role in helping colleges better serve students? And if so, how? Jeff and Michael debate those questions on this episode. To set the stage, they talk with Ruth Watkins, president of postsecondary education for Strada Education Foundation and a former college president, about Strada’s new State Opportunity Index. A key theme: the state level may be the ideal one to match educational offerings with available jobs, especially as AI reshapes so many industries. This episode is made with support from Strada Education Foundation.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
3:40 - How a New Report Measures State Higher Ed Efforts
5:53 - Is This a Time for States to Lead?
8:17 - How to Encourage Competition Among States
10:12 - Which States Lead In Higher Ed ROI
12:52 - Low Tuition Doesn’t Guarantee Good ROI
15:39 - What Can Colleges Do If Job Prospects Are Low in a State?
19:00 - Who Is the Audience for the State Opportunity Index?
21:09 - How Can State Measure Return on Investing in Higher Ed?
23:52 - What Can States Do in Higher Ed to Respond to AI?
26:45 - Sponsor Break
27:55 - Some Context for How States Interact With Federal Higher Ed Support
29:40 - Why Jeff Thinks States and the Feds Aren’t ‘Rowing in the Same Direction’
32:00 - Why Michael Sees More Alignment in State and Federal Efforts
34:15 - Will States Step In to Support Research?
37:07 - Are Some States Doing Better on Work-Based Learning?
40:54 - Colleges Still Aren’t Comfortable in Their Role of Getting Students Jobs
46:29 - New Leadership Opportunity In Human Capital in the AI Era
48:18 - A Better Way to Measure State Investment
51:56 - Lightning Round With Ruth Watkins
Relevant Links:
2025 Strada State Opportunity Index
Strada Education Foundation
State Higher Education Executive Officers Association
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4 November 2025, 5:00 am - 55 minutes 53 secondsVisiting Butler: Sparking a Culture of Innovation
On the latest stop of Future U.'s campus tour, Michael and Jeff visit Butler University to talk with Butler president Jim Danko and other campus leaders. They explore how, out of a mix of excitement about serving students and fear of potential competitive threats on the horizon, the university built a culture and infrastructure to encourage innovation.
Relevant Links
Butler University’s Transformation Lab website.
Chapters
0:00 - Why We Wanted to Visit Butler University
3:46 - What Butler’s President Said He Would Do When He First Started
7:22 - Some Early Wins In Sparking Innovation
9:16 - The Importance of Time and Patience in College Leadership
13:25 - How Presidents Can Best Work With Trustees to Encourage Innovation
15:46 - How a Business Background Influenced Leading a University
19:37 - Why Did Butler Push for Innovation?
21:11 - Putting a Vision Into Practice
22:50 - The Importance of Wanting to Win
28:01 - A Chief Strategy Officer’s Viewpoint
35:35 - A Faculty Perspective on Innovation
37:04 - The 50-50 Rule of Running the Board of Trustees
38:53 - What Butler Ventures Looks Like Today
47:43 - What Grade Would Butler Give Its Innovation Efforts?
52:00 - Closing Observations
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30 October 2025, 11:28 am - More Episodes? Get the App