Brand Journalist & Marketing Consultant, Phoebe Chongchua, shares three tips to increase insurance sales by becoming an online authority in your industry. Learn how new media marketing builds trust with consumers and helps close deals. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com.   Guest: Phoebe Chongchua Phoebe Chongchua is a multimedia Brand Journalist, Consultant & Marketing Strategist who makes brands Remarkable. Using her skills as TV News Journalist, she connects brands and consumers through powerful storytelling. Companies gain a competitive advantage when they learn to "Be the Media." Phoebe is a "Top 50 Podcaster to Follow.” Listen to "The Brand Journalism Advantage" podcast in iTunes or at ThinkLikeAJournalist.com     Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT   Mark Miletello: Welcome back to the show. I'm excited; we have a special show lined up today. We have one of the world's greatest minds in marketing and media and journalism. Our guest is a brand journalist and consultant who teaches businesses how to think like a journalist and be the media. I'm going to dive into that because I want to know what does that mean to us, how to think like a journalist, and how do we be the media. It's awesome. She launched the brand Journalism Advantage Podcast in the fall of 2014, and within nine months she was named a top 50 podcaster by Cision for shows on public relations, marketing, and social media. She also made the list of 35 outstanding podcast picks by entrepreneurs on Inc.com. She's an award-winning former TV news journalist from right here in San Diego who loves the pursuit of a good story. Welcome our special guest Phoebe Chongchua to the show. Phoebe Chongchua: Hey Mark, how are you? Mark Miletello: I have to step up my game. I'm doing great, but I don't even know, how many shows do you have live out there that you produced? Phoebe Chongchua: For the brand Journalism Advantage we have about 400+ episodes to date. You know that is no easy feat, right? Mark Miletello: It's not an easy feat. For the listeners, Phoebe is the inspiration behind and really my mentor in launching one of the first and greatest, I believe, platforms for our industry. What's so unique about you, Phoebe is that you've been around our industry now for at least nine to ten years. With your background, and now you know a lot of our background, it's just going to be an unbelievable show too, so thank you for joining us. It's an honor and a privilege. Phoebe Chongchua: You know what, Mark? I think that what you are doing truly is an inspiration and should be listened to by many agents because this is what it's all about, getting your voice out there, being heard and giving valuable information to the agents so that they can thrive in the industry. There aren't a lot of people out there doing this. Mark Miletello: We're jumping right into this, and I love it, but you know our industry. I feel like our industry is way behind on a lot of the social, maybe it's a lot of industries Phoebe. You work with very, very large corporations, some of the world's largest corporations. You've worked with Mom & Pop shops, you've worked with anyone in between. Is it me or is our industry way behind online marketing, social media, things like that, or is it really everyone struggles in that area? Phoebe Chongchua: I think a lot of brands and large corporations are definitely excelling in this space, but then there are a lot of brands that just don't get it, and they're really creating these streams of broadcasts where they get on a platform, and they think, "I've just got to hit it with marketing," and that's where they're going wrong. They're really not telling a story; they're not sharing their real reason for why they are doing what they're doing in the industry and how it's going to help people. That's what's most important, and that's kind of where this whole think like a journalist mentality comes in. When you think like a journalist, your number one rule is to find the story and make it a value to the end user. Who's the end user? When it's media, it's your viewing audience, or radio, it's your listener-ship. In the cases of brands, if they can think like a journalist and craft stories that are valuable to their end users, their core audience, their future customers, their current customers, they're really engaging them and bringing that story to them to help them through the buyer journey and that cycle of making decisions to choose their company, their product, their service. Mark Miletello: We're going to dive into this because I'm going to extract everything I can in this short amount of time we have together because you have so much to offer any industry, especially where the insurance pros meet the insurance industry. I definitely want to just pause and say thank you for inspiring me to launch this, coaching me. I don't want to use the phrase that I'd like to use, but you've polished me, and there's a lot of work to go, but I'm getting better. I've got to tell you, I've interviewed some of the greatest in our industry, and you're one of the greatest in your industry, but also knowing that you're one of the television's and online and podcast, you're one of the great interviewers out there, I'm a little bit intimidated. Phoebe Chongchua: Oh no. You know what I like about the podcasting platform? You take up space on someone's prized possession, their smartphone, their iPhone. You own space on that, and you're plugged into their ears, and they're listening while they're walking or running. You can be as real as ever. You don't have to be that broadcast journalist to get into this. What you have to do is have a message, care about it, Mark, as you do, and then drill down. Get the information out of each guest, make it valuable to your listener-ship and they'll keep coming back. Mark Miletello: Well, thanks for the confidence. I needed that right off the bat. Phoebe, let's jump into this. Let's talk about what you do and how you have become one of the greatest in your industry and how you can help our industry. This is where the insurance professionals meet; you are a professional in the media space, give us a professional tip right off the bat, something, a piece of technology, something, a tip that can transform our business. Phoebe Chongchua: This is probably one your industry, at least the agents, haven't heard of, and they might do a, "Huh," scratch their head and might have to hit the 30 second back button when I say it, but trust me. If you do any blogging, if you do any writing for the web, I'm going to give you a tool that is incredibly valuable. I actually got this from a guest on one of my podcast shows because I ask a similar question about a resource or tool that they can use, but I'll tell you what, it's really worth its weight in gold. This is called a headline analyzer. I'm sure in your show notes, Mark, you'll put a link to it, but it's basically from the Advanced Marketing Institute. What's a headline analyzer? This is a little bit crazy, when I got into TV, we wrote headlines, that bait that draws you in to watch those, what we call, teases so that you'll watch the 5 o'clock news or the 6:30 newscast. A headline analyzer takes your headline that you think it's so awesome and then tells you whether it really is awesome or not. It tells you if it's awesome not just for people, meaning the actual humans, on the web we write for the robots too. We write for the algorithms and all the bots that are searching the web, so you have to make your headline work for two things. When I first started writing on the web a long, long time ago, I thought it was really cool to be clever, that clever journalist like I was on TV. I realized clever doesn't pay, you have to be straightforward, you've got to be hard-hitting, and you've got to make your point, and that's what's going to make a good headline. Why am I telling you this? As an insurance agent, you may or may not have a blog, you may or may not write on LinkedIn. If you are not, you're making a huge, huge mistake and I'm sure we're going to get into that as we go through this episode. The headline analyzer will tell you things like is this hitting emotionally at the level you want? Is it hitting intellectually? Guess what, in the insurance industry, there's a lot of space for writing about things that are both going to hit intellectually and emotionally. I'm sure when you guys go on sales calls you guys are hitting on both levels, the intellectual and emotional. What's going to happen if you don't have life insurance, for instance, and your husband passes away? How will your wife be taken care of? That's emotional. If you're writing about stuff like that, but your headline doesn't match the content of your writing and doesn't work for the search engines and doesn't work at an impactful level for humans, then your writing isn't going to go anywhere and isn't going to be seen. That's why I recommend this. It's very easy to use, you just type in the headline, and it'll tell you whether you're writing it at the level of a complete novice or whether you're writing at the level of an expert copywriter. Mark Miletello: Thank you and we will definitely share the link. I'm going to get your commitment right now that maybe five or ten or twenty shows down the road I want you back because you've given me since I've known you, Phoebe, you've given me like ten sites of just things I would have never known or found. Recently you said, "Mark, you need to use Grammarly. Your writing needs help." Yup, you're right, I drag a document over, it proofs it, sends it back to me and then it needs more proofing, but the point is you have your finger on the pulse and anyone out there, whether you're an insurance agency, a management team or a Fortune 500 company, you need to look into this lady because she is something special, so thank you, your professional strategy. Phoebe, let's talk a little bit about you. Let's give the listener a little bit of background about maybe your rise to success. Can you share that with us? Phoebe Chongchua: My background is a television journalist, and I wanted to be a television newscaster since the age of 12. I really had this mantra, I don't even know where it came from, but I think in your industry it's sales meetings. You guys are heavily into creating what you want in your life and making that a reality. I lived by the mantra imagine it, and you can achieve it, similar to Walt Disney. This was something that really drove me. When I wanted to become that newscaster since the age of 12, I just bee-lined, like laser-focused, and doubled down on it. You're going to hear me say that about a couple of things as we go through the tips section, but that's what got me into broadcasting. My first job was literally delivering radios for KPBS. I look back, and I think, "This is crazy," but they were radios for the radio reading service for the visually impaired. I believe that still exists today. I would go into homes, and this taught me a lot about the psychology of humans because I would go into homes where there were people who were completely blind or mostly blind, and I would deliver a radio to them so that they could listen to this station that read the newspaper over the air. Quite an interesting thing, not anywhere along the lines of what I wanted to be doing, but I took it to get my foot in the door. From there, I worked hard, long hours and innovated and iterated into whatever I needed to be to make it to that next step. Over the course of about four years I ended up landing a job in TV news after doing many internships for all the television stations and three networks at that time, so you can see times have changed. There are a lot more networks in one local market today. I ended up becoming a TV news reporter for the ABC affiliate here in San Diego called 10 News. Within just a short period, maybe two year's time, I was promoted to an anchor. Really made all the mistakes you could imagine because I was green as ever, Mark, so believe me, sitting in your place, I know exactly what it's like except I was on TV very young, very green. I really do thank the San Diego audience for hanging in there and believing in me because I made lots of mistakes. From there, I really began to see my entrepreneurial skills develop, which I didn't even know that I had in me, but I started to innovate. I created fitness programs that became very popular on TV, and I created one of the things that I'm most proud of in my career, which is a resource festival that became know, at that time in California, as one of the largest resource festivals of its kind. We attracted 20 thousand people to it in just four year's time. I remember one of the funny stories is it was held out at Qualcomm Stadium, it was meant to differentiate the brand, so differentiate 10 News from watching any other network news, why we cared about the people, because again we were trying to answer and solve questions for our viewership so that we would stand out. You could watch a drive-by shooting on any network, right, so what makes the network different? If you care about the community, which is the same message that I teach today. The real highlight was it was held out at Qualcomm stadium, took up this very large area of the parking lot. I had the, then San Diego Chargers involved, the Padres, I had major businesses, about 500 businesses and non-profits coming together for this one day where we gave the community all the answers we could pack into a day to help them, and fun entertainment. There's a thing called a sig alert. A sig alert is when they dispatch over the air by the law enforcement that there are big problems, traffic problems in a certain area and it could mean that there's big breaking news going down. What happened was Channel 8 heard this sig alert. This is the competition, and we were in fierce competition at the time with Channel 8. Mark Miletello: You know there's a movie about this, right? Phoebe Chongchua: Right, so Channel 8- Mark Miletello: San Diego newscasters, right? Phoebe Chongchua: Yes, exactly. Mark Miletello: I won't go there. Phoebe Chongchua: Yeah, Anchorman. Anyway, Channel 8 shows up to cover the story thinking that it was breaking news and I'm telling you, I go, "You know you've arrived when the competition is coming to your event that you're trying to brand yourself about in the community." You've got 20 thousand plus people, you've got it all backed up, it looked like it was a football game or something. They came to cover it and then they're like, "Oh, it's only Channel 10's event." Mark Miletello: I love it. Phoebe Chongchua: What was so cool about that, Mark, and where this ties into branding for companies, is that we were creating something that our viewership needed. Our viewership is what drives the business of media. A lot of people forget that media is a business, and it is just like any other business. It has to bring in its profit, so we have to answer to them. We did this by connecting with them and engaging with them. This was long before the days of Twitter and YouTube and Facebook and LinkedIn and all the platforms that you can now, or podcasting, that you can now go live on and create your own stories and tell your messages. When we did this, it was so different and so unique that it drove a lot of attention. I still remember the customers, the viewers, coming in and saying to me things like, "This has changed my life. I didn't know that this business existed." We did a job fair and got 340 people hired in a single day. It was a pretty cool event. Mark Miletello: You said so much in there. I find when I work and talk with you Phoebe, I take notes, so that's awesome. I'm always learning from you. First of all, you said a quote that when you said it, it just reminded me, this is the number one quote I heard from my father growing up. It was a William Arthur Ward quote that says, "If you can imagine it, you can achieve it. If you can dream it, you can become it." Thanks for sharing that because I hadn't even thought of that and that's kind of a staple quote in the insurance industry. That's where that came from, and actually, my father repeated that often throughout my life. One thing that you did, and I don't know if you have or have not, but I just recently read Blue Ocean Strategy. What you were doing and the idea is that we all compete in this red, bloody ocean of fierce competition. What you did was clearly before it was even coined that, you performed what was a "Blue Ocean Strategy." You've become the competition, so now I get to be the media, I see where that comes from. That's just a Blue Ocean Strategy that you, just like Amazon, just like Uber, just like, you broke out of an industry to create a whole new platform where you brought in connections. The last thing I'd want to say is, wow, what a great concept where you were able to build a community event, I bet you got some pretty good business relationships throughout that. Phoebe Chongchua: Oh, absolutely. One of the things I recommend when businesses come to me, and they say, "We're struggling with this concept of being the media. How do we be that voice? How do we tell our own stories?" I look at them, and I think for years, maybe even decades, a business has been using, what's called a press release. We heard several years ago; I can't remember how many now, but Coca-Cola said, "We're killing the press release." You've seen large companies like GE now, instead of using press releases, they tell stories. GE is a brand and a big, big brand. A lot of times a brand like that would not need to engage with its consumers. You're going to go out, you're going to buy washing machines and other things that they make, but the fact is when they tell stories about how certain things are made, or they tell stories that are along the lines of what the consumer wants to know about, they're engaging with that consumer in a way like the media does. That's the point, when you build these partnerships and you be the media, you have an opportunity to carry that story to your consumers and bypass traditional media, bypass that press release, that by the way, most of the time, quite frankly, when I was a news reporter, newscaster, it ended up in that circular file. You know, the one on the floor, right next to your desk? Mark Miletello: Yup. Phoebe Chongchua: Sadly, because it wasn't stories. Businesses were pitching advertisements and saying, "Hey, television station, do you want to cover our press release that's an advertisement?" No, that's not a story. You have to really dig deep and differentiate between what is a brand journalism story, which literally means just taking the journalistic skills and writing a story on behalf of a brand using those journalistic skills. Remember, we started off the show by saying journalists look for stories that matter to their end users. Brands need to do the same, what matters to the end user. As an insurance agent, what matters to that audience? What do you want to tell them? I know I've sat down with financial advisors, I've sat down with insurance agents, I've sat down with lawyers, they're all trying to help make the lives of the people they serve better. The problem is, sometimes they market to them instead of really answering the questions that that consumer might have. If they did answer the questions in an intellectual and emotional way, then they'd be able to close the sale a whole lot easier. Mark Miletello: That's kind of the show with Richard Weylman, that's exactly the point that he put. Let's talk now about the insurance agent, the insurance industry. Let's use all of your experience and knowledge in media and let's pinpoint some professional advice that you would give us so that we can ... I know sometimes I take your notes because you're so far ahead of where I'm at in social media and where I'm at in branding myself or my team. I have to take notes and go back and think and study on that and ask you more follow-up questions. What I want to do is kind of slow it down and really pinpoint a couple of areas, Phoebe, that you would advise with your knowledge of our industry you've had over the past decade and the knowledge that you have blending those to teach us how we can utilize your advice and skills to help us. Can you give us some advice? Phoebe Chongchua: Sure, so there are three things. I want to keep it really simple because what tends to happen is I have all these great thoughts, and I'm really an innovator. People hire me to strategically think for the brand and the business regarding marketing and content creation. Sometimes I get a little too far ahead of myself, so I want to break it down and make it very simple for anyone listening. Whether you are the leader of a very large company or you're a solopreneur or an independent contractor, wherever you fall in this, and the industry actually doesn't matter, but in this case, we're talking about insurance, you need to do three things. If you do these three things and you do them well, I can guarantee you success because you will be found on the web, you will be found in the offline and the online world, and really that's what's most important at this point. The tips are that you have to build authority, you have to be the media, and you've got to double down on distribution and promotion. Let me go into this a little bit deeper. What I mean by being the authority is you have to be recognized and seen as that expert in your industry. That's the big kahuna of it all. That's like, "Awesome." If you're seen as that, you open doors. When I launched all of this years ago, and I talked about be the media, a lot of people didn't understand. They thought, "Why do I have to be the media?" Today we're seeing everything from fake news sites to real news sites, to brands that are popping up that are literally dominating and getting more views than traditional media. Imagine that, Mark, more views than traditional media. That's crazy to think that's happening. I'll give you an example of a bank in Denmark called Jyske Bank. They're a bank, but guess what they are today? They're really the media. They wanted to get their news and information about their financial service products to the marketplace, but here's what was going on. The media just wouldn't have it. They didn't see stories; they saw marketing. They saw a press release. They saw, "You're in it for yourself." They said, "Huh, what can we do?" Someone had the ingenious idea to turn themselves into the media and to literally set up broadcasts, so today they broadcast both locally and nationally by the worldwide web. They tell stores about their products and service, and they give financial information, and now, you know what? They're quoted by people in traditional media jobs, by journalists, by producers, and they're actually turned to as a resource. This can literally pave the way, and you think, "I'm just an insurance agent. I've got to do my job, and now you want me to run a media company?" I want you to build your authority. It would be like saying, "I'm an insurance agent, but I don't have time to keep my resume up. I don't have time to do my business card." This is part of living, part of building a successful career. There's no room for can't; there's only room to get it done. You start by building your authority, building your expertise. If you have a website, you can put your content there. The second part would be the media; you do this by telling the stories that matter to your end users. Look at who you're trying to attract. If you're working on, let's say maybe you're going after the agriculture industry, then tell stories that matter to farmers and make them understand what they're missing if they're not using your product, but don't be so focused on your product. Be more focused on what they need and through that you'll build a relationship with them. They'll come to know, like and trust you because of the content you're putting out. Third, you double down on distribution and promotion, and I have to admit this is where sometimes even I've failed. I've created a lot of content and I've done what a journalist does, which is sometimes just broadcast, get it out there, but I've long wanted to create courses and to make myself more valuable to my clients by offering something that I don't have to teach in coaching sessions one on one. Had I doubled down on the distribution and promotion, that would have helped me get to where I was going faster. This is an area, we all can find the areas where we're stronger and weaker. Someone likes to podcast, so they like to get on the radio and talk, and that comes easier than maybe writing. You've got to force yourself to work at these things and really bring to light all three. Be that expert, be the media by having a story. Another great thing is analyzing other people's work. For instance, you can take something that's happening in the insurance world; you can pull that piece of content into your blog or your podcast and then analyze it. This is what the media does; they have a, "And that's my perspective," type thing. People will listen to that for your analysis of it. The third, spend probably the most amount of time on doubling down on what's working, whichever social media platform you're growing the fastest and promote it like crazy. Mark Miletello: Yeah, and sometimes we need to hire that done, sometimes we need to be part of that, right? Phoebe Chongchua: I'd say both. You can hire for it, but you need to be part of it. You need to take the time to go out- Mark Miletello: At least understand it, learn it, launch it and then lay the groundwork. Phoebe Chongchua: Yeah, because here's the thing, and this is a really important point. When you say, "Hire for it," you can hire people to do your social media, but they better know your brand inside and outside. Even still, a do a lot of that for brands, but I've still got to have that person who is the brand weigh in and make comments and talk and engage. That's important Facebook Live came about in the last couple of years, that can't be done hired out. That's got to be you; you've got to jump on, you as that person who's trying to be the guru, the expert, the authority has to jump in front of the camera and talk to your audience. If you do it all the time, if you do this formula, authority, be the media, double down, you will find success and you'll look back and you'll say, "Wow," in whatever year it was that you started, say it's 2018 at the time of this recording, you'll go, "I'm so glad I did that because I'm making my mark in the online world," which translates to business in the offline world. Mark Miletello: Right. You said, "To go out and gather their information and analyze it." I think since doing this I've been really doing that by following your podcast, the brand Journalist Advantage, listening to different CEOs or different marketing or all the guests and the talent that you bring on your show. Of course, I listen to it to learn from you as well, but you pick up something from all these industries, and you can rebrand that or rework it to either, number one, content for you, but also not just talking about the same thing all the time. There are different aspects and different angles to look at marketing and sales and all those different aspects of an entrepreneur, the business they build and things like that. Thank you for sharing that advice. You mentioned where maybe you lack and I definitely lack on the distribution and promotion. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes, and that's why I like to have this question that I'm going to throw at you. We all have fumbles, we all now and then drop the ball. Can you tell me, Phoebe, of a time that you've learned from a mistake that you may have made? Phoebe Chongchua: Like my guests say on my show when I ask my, "When it didn't work moment," there are so many, but one pops into my head. This was many years ago. I started out when I moved from TV to the web doing video production, and we still do that today where we create stories for brands and businesses. I had this one agency come to me, wanted me to do a shoot with a small business owner. We had to travel for that, so of course, the expenses were paid. I worked directly with the PR firm to set this whole deal up. I never spoke with the client until I actually go there. Once I got there, I realized she was deathly afraid to be on camera. She was super uncomfortable. What she probably needed first was coaching sessions from me on-camera interviews before she would ever be comfortable, but we were set to shoot. We had a limited amount of time, so we went ahead, and we shot, and it became painfully obvious that this was not going to work. I've done thousands and thousands of interviews, interviewed people like Walter Cronkite, interviewed Mother Theresa and interviewed people on the streets who are homeless, even rapists in jail cells, so I have a lot of experience in this, but I can't make somebody in the time we're there with the pressure we were under work at the level that they're going to be comfortable with that's going to present their brand in the way they wanted. We ended up shooting with, actually, the PR person, which wasn't bad, but the lesson in all this that I learned is I made a big mistake in not doing some of the homework upfront, in relying on the agency to have set everything up. Sometimes we take a shortcut because it's like, "Oh, okay, it just dropped into my lap, and it's a good deal for me. Let's go." That ended up costing me in the end because it took more time, the shoot took longer because we had to scrap a lot of it. I learned that you've really got to focus on getting to know everyone involved, making sure that they really understand what's going to happen and making sure that they're comfortable with it because very often, CEOs especially, and this isn't a jab at anyone who's a leader, myself included at times, jump in front of a camera or behind a microphone thinking, "We've got it all made. It's all under control." That's just not the way it is. Everyone can benefit from some coaching, no matter if you're a professional or not. If you need that first, that should come before you're actually setting up to do a shoot. I learned to look at that and do my homework beforehand to make sure that the person is really camera-ready. Otherwise, the segments aren't going to go the way they want. It's not going to be a success. The PR person, fortunately, was there and could jump in front and he did a great job, so all was well. Mark Miletello: Thank you for not bringing up the time I enlisted your help to shoot my first video. That was a little harder than I thought because I had some brighter lights than I've ever had pointed at me. Phoebe Chongchua: I hear you. Mark Miletello: Thanks for being patient. Anyway, we'll move on. Phoebe Chongchua: It's all good, right? That's the key, right, Mark- Mark Miletello: You made me look as good as someone can. Phoebe Chongchua: Yeah. Mark Miletello: You polished me again in that aspect, and wow, did you do ... I've seen that video of training on the Value Sells presentation. I watched it last night because I just did some enhancements to the site. Phoebe, I watched that last night, and I'm thinking, of course, that's me, and you want to criticize yourself so much, but the way you filmed that, it took just a lot ... I don't know if that comes as second nature or you really put the amount of time into building me performing at two different, one on, anyway you just did a great job, and I was just thinking that last night. I guess it's been a few years since then and I forgot how awesome of a job you tried to make me look. Phoebe Chongchua: Well, thank you. It's good stuff; the content really is what counts too. It's very important and can help people. Mark Miletello: That's what I hope about this show is that they realize I'm just a doer in the industry. I'm a manager, leader, an agent, a producer and I'm just having fun. Again, you've interviewed Walter Cronkite and many others, I'm going to make it through this show, and I'm going to have fun. I do have my mentor on the other side of this call, so thank you for that, and I really hope you inspire others the way that you've inspired me, but let me ask you this. If you're starting and understanding the social media the way you do, how do you start? What do you do first? How do you grow, Phoebe, in this day and time? Phoebe Chongchua: This goes back to the three tips that I was giving, and I see one way to success, and that's to develop that niche and become that authority in it. You must do that. Out of everything that we've said in this podcast, that's the important thing. Develop your niche, become the authority in it, then stick with one main platform. If you're going to write on LinkedIn, write on LinkedIn and double down on it. Mark Miletello: Be the best at it. Phoebe Chongchua: Yes, do the information and get it out there on that platform so that your audience knows where to follow you. Then introduce it on other social media platforms after you grow the first platform. A lot of times I come into brands, and they go, "We want to be on Twitter and Instagram and all these different things," and I go, "Let's just go one and work that one platform first." Seek to be on other people's shows because you can gain a lot by being published. I've been published in books like Donald Trump's The Best Real Estate Advice I've Ever Received, I've been published in other books on financial services. I have a lot of work out there on the web in platforms like realtytimes.com, so a lot around the lifestyle, home improvement, financial services, industry so that my work can be seen through their audiences as well. Again, double down on what you're doing, on the distribution and the promotion, and don't give up. Keep going, going, going. Mark Miletello: Wonderful advice. What I want to do, Phoebe is, and especially this is a perfect question for someone with your expertise. What is your professional prediction in ten years? The year is 2028, what do you predict, if you had to wave your wand and tell us, what does the industry, the media, the branding, social media, what does the industry look like? How do we as business people fit in? Phoebe Chongchua: If you do something now and you take that action now, you'll set yourself up for better success down the road. If you become known as that expert, building that niche, and maybe you're catching on to the theme here that you have to be an expert in your industry, but more importantly you have to be known for something. Here's the thing, if you're in insurance and you decide later to change into something else, you've got to be known for your skillset. Why does LinkedIn offer what are your skillsets and how people endorse you in those areas? Because that's going to translate to other jobs down the road whichever direction you go. A lot of times people start off into one area, and they migrate like I was a TV journalist, and I'm now a brand journalist and a consultant helping build other people's brands. I think the number one thing that you have to think about is in 2028, don't get focused on will YouTube be around, will Facebook still exist in the way it is. The internet will be here and what will you be known as on the internet? What is your virtual resume? How does it look there, but more important, you don't want just your resume. You want to be known as that person who has deep thought and analysis. You want to be known as that thought leader, and you only build that by writing, by talking, by speaking, by getting in front of people. If you want to be known to your customers, your homeowners, people that you are working with as the expert, you better be found on the web because it's basically like this. In the 70's and 80's, if you had a business, Mark, would you say no to the yellow pages? Mark Miletello: Absolutely not, in fact, I changed my name to AAA, Assurant Insurance Agency so that I would show up first. Phoebe Chongchua: Right? Exactly. Remember the tool I talked about, the headline analyzer? That's where things like this come in. It's all the same, but it's different at the same time. What I mean by that is you're still playing the game. Mark was doing AAA insurance, and on the web, you've got to use a web headline analyzer to make your content seen and to try to rank above the competition. The bottom line is you don't say, "I'm not going to be part of it." You don't say, "I'm not going to be in the yellow pages," in the 70's and 80's when you're a business and, "I'm not going to do social media because I think it might go away." You're only hurting yourself, so take action now, start writing, make it a habit or start podcasting. Do something so that you're getting your thought leadership out there to become that authority. Mark Miletello: The cheese always moves, the puck, the idea is to skate to where the puck is going and not to where it is. You are doing that and have done that. Who inspires you? Give us a professional recommendation of a book or a person, or article, someone that you would recommend. Phoebe Chongchua: There are so many great people, but I'm going to say this one just because I've listened to it recently and because anybody who does follow me knows that I'm a huge fan of Apple. It's Steve Jobs, The Man Who Thought Different. That might seem like, "Really? Another Steve Jobs reference?" Listen to this book; it's well done. If you want to, you can listen to it on Audible. You can get a free link from me over at my site thinklikeajournalist.com, but I recommend this book because what he does is so incredibly amazing. You learn a lot more about his younger years and how he thought, even when he was a kid. He, from the very beginning, he just thought differently. I love the way he brings attention to the product. What you're going to get out of this is you're going to recognize that it requires a lot of developing yourself and going deep into yourself to do what I'm talking about with this authority branding and authority marketing. I think Steve is an inspiration to anyone who wants to build a very successful business. If you follow some of his principles about his deep care for products, services and the way they're presented and the story that's told, you'll be on the right track. One of the things that Steve Jobs did is he rehearsed like crazy before those Apple presentations, which, by the way, the world watches. People line up all over the place to get into these conferences. He rehearsed those. He didn't leave things to chance. For anyone who's a platform speaker, that's so important because a lot of times you just try to wing it. You think, "I've got this, I've seen these slides. I'm just going to roll with it." He didn't do that. Mark Miletello: Exactly, and it's not just platform speakers. In our industry, it's the first time you meet with a client. It's very time you meet with a client. It's rehearsed, it's learned, it's practiced. If I had to say, and I'm not going to make it number one, but I'm going to say it's in the top three to five mistakes I find new agents, new reps making in this industry, is they don't rehearse, they don't practice enough and they go out and make mistakes. This is learned skills, so that sounds like a really good read. As I promised, it was a special show. I cannot believe, I'm just honored to have one of the greatest minds in the world in the media space, one of the most sought-after coaches and all those great things. I just want to say thank you for being a guest on the show and thank you for all you've done to mentor and coach me. I'm honored and privileged to know you and to be coached by you and to have you in my corner. Phoebe Chongchua: Mark, it's been so much fun, and I'm just thrilled with your success. You're doing great. Mark Miletello: And now you're in the corner of the entire industry with this show, so thank you for that as well. If you like what you hear on the show, you can definitely connect. All you have to do is Google Phoebe Chongchua. She's easy to find. If you want others to find me and this show, please go to iTunes, rate, and review, and you can follow me on markmiletello.com. Thank you for listening.

Today's episode is on new marketing and training platforms for multiple line agents. Lance Johnson is the co-founder of IA Trainers, (Insurance Agent Trainers). Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1 Where the Insurance Pros Meet, episode one. Lance Johnson If you could help someone get what they want, you're going to get what you want. Speaker 1 Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top one percent producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello Welcome. I'm Mark Miletello. Today we're going to discuss new marketing and training platforms for multiple line agents. We have on the show with us co-founder of IA Trainers, that stands for Insurance Agent Trainers, and my partner in the development of the new dynamic training platform MarkMiletello.com. Welcome, Lance Johnson to the show. How are you? Lance Johnson Well, I'm doing great, Mark. Thanks a lot for having me. I appreciate you having me on board today. Mark Miletello Well, I'm excited to have you on board, and some of the things that I know you're going to share with us is really revolutionizing the industry. Lance, you know I'm a golfer, right? Lance Johnson That's correct. Mark Miletello There's nothing better than to walk up to the first t-box and right off the bat crush a drive down the middle of the fairway while everyone is looking and waiting. The rest of the game may not go so well, so while everyone is listening and waiting, I'd like to start the show the same way with valuable information that will just crush it. Lance, for our insurance and financial services listeners, can you give us a quick tip right off the first box? Lance Johnson Yeah, you know my first tip to anybody in business is it's all about getting people what they want, providing things to help people get what they want. The first rule of thumb I go by is if you can help someone get what they want, you're going to get what you want if that makes sense. Mark Miletello It absolutely does, and I totally agree with that. I'm excited to dive into this today to find out more about that. But first Lance, let's go to some industry news. Right now, the insurance industry is going through some crazy times. Training in the industry right now is news that auto insurance losses are climbing at an alarming rate. Many insurance companies have been caught off guard by this trend, some in a major way like I said, and consumers, of course, want to know why? For some time, auto insurance rates were trending consistently down, believe it or not, competition among other things. Since the great recession, since '08, '09 this trend has reversed. Rates again are on the rise; the reasons are there are more and more cars on the road. Those cars are driving much more annual mileage than before. There are higher medical costs, which always seems to be a factor, but also higher repair costs have been a major trend as well. Lance, I know you. You drive all over the state, and I know your commute. You drive a lot of miles, annually right? Lance Johnson Yeah, I do. I put the miles on because I love being on the field working with clients. Mark Miletello I know, and I think most of us if we look at the mileage we drive, and maybe you and I are just from a larger city, but I think people are driving more as the economy picks up. Also with the age of smart cars, the technology is supposed to be there to help with wrecks, right? Self-driving cars, things like that. What's going on here? It's really Lance, it's the other technologies that are causing more wrecks. Everything I guess cell phone related, navigation apps, texting, calls, et cetera. All this including those higher miles that are driven seems to be causing more wrecks, and guess what, the more wrecks that are happening from cars that are now much more expensive. Either way, as it stands, the industry right now cannot raise rates fast enough, and consumers, of course, are not too happy of this trend. They want to know why. It's difficult times not only for the companies but also for agents. That's what I'm excited to have you on board to help us hear some professional tips and strategies and things that the agents can control. We can't control the claims, and the trends, and the rates, but it does make things more difficult for us in the field of course. Before we jump into that, I want to hear some professional strategies from you. This is where the pros meet, and you have shown that you're a pro in the age of technology and things like that. Lance, can you tell me a little bit about how you became successful? Lance Johnson I've become successful by really analyzing what successful people do, and trying not to reinvent the wheel. My dad, he was a successful doctor, and he told me, "You know what, you've got to find what you like to do, get up every day and just do that same thing every day." For example, as you know me, I rode motorcycles professionally. I got up, I trained, and I became successful. I got into real estate. I got up every day, I did real estate. People knew that Lance Johnson did real estate loans. When the crash happened, I went back into technology. As you know, we revolutionized the car industry with some nifty technology, but if you talk to anybody, Lance Johnson was the automotive technology guru. Now my biggest tip is just get up, find what you like to do, and just get up every day and do it. Mark Miletello That kind of brings us to today, and again, I know you from the automotive technology, which was really the leading, one of the leading minds out there in that and you had some tremendous success in that arena. Of course, you and I got into dirt bike riding. I know that you were on all the magazine covers back in the day, but that kind of led us to grow together in this new venture called insurance agent trainers or IA Trainers. Tell us how your technology background led to that discovery. Lance Johnson Well, you know I'll just get a little personal. My wife is an agent, she works for one of the top agencies, one of your agents. About a year ago, she came back from an appointment, and the loan officer, which you know, when it comes to agents selling P&C, the best referrals she can get are from loan officers. She was asked to go to lunch, the loan officer was 15 minutes late, was on the phone for 30 minutes and then he hangs the phone up and says, "What are you going to do for me? I already get coffee and donuts." I just tried to put my head together, how do I give an insurance agent something of value to where they can have an answer to, "What are you going to do for me?" With the technology out there, I came up with the concept of using our agent marketing software to give, it goes back to that tip of the day. If I can give a realtor what they want, they're going to give a loan officer what they want, and now that we can help the realtor and the loan officer get what they want, we as insurance agents are going to get what we want, which is referrals on home and auto. Mark Miletello Lance, I've had the luxury of really being with you from the beginning of this process as a partner in growing this concept, and watching you have the success. Some of those struggles that you have I think is when you say that, yes, I agree, and anyone would agree that if you help others get what they want, you get what you want. I think one of the challenges that you've had is relaying exactly. Can you pinpoint as exactly as you can the technology, how the technology helps others get what they want, and in fact benefit the insurance agent? Lance Johnson Yeah, so for example, in the insurance, real estate, loan officer world, the loan officer real estate relationship is a fruitful relationship, it's a proven relationship, it's working now. A realtor’s best referrals are loan officers, and a loan officers referrals, his best ones are from the real estate agents. The insurance agent, it may maybe have a great relationship, they may get referrals, but a lot of times as you know are last minute. By providing a real estate agent with the most advanced and automated system to market their properties, you're helping them sell their properties sooner, giving them technology like text codes and websites that automatically make themselves, you're not only helping them sell their property sooner, you're giving them things to make their job easier. Then for those realtors, when you sponsor it through a loan officer, that loan officer is looking, the realtor is looking to that loan officer as that loan officer gave him something to make his life easier. To cap it off, if you can sponsor the loan officer and the realtor through an insurance agent, it connects the insurance agent like has never been done before. Mark Miletello Well, I've been obviously part of that process, and I guess to add more to that, what I saw, and again it took you kind of pounding it into me, it from an insurance agent standpoint, typically we're not known as the most tech-savvy people in the world, our industry, and I think you'll laugh and agree at that. You've had that challenge of the first 70, 80 people that have signed up for your program, I think you've had the challenge of really kind of helping us grasp that concept. What I'm excited about is, and I've told you my story before, I had a card mailing system that I offered real estate agents for sending me their referrals, and loan officers as well. The rest of the story is that I ended up becoming the top agent with one of the largest companies in the nation with a card mailing system. This is a full suite marketing platform that gives a real estate agent everything they want to market. Social media, print advertising, everything they want to market that home, right? Lance Johnson That's correct. Mark Miletello It's a full suite of everything that they would want, so if a card mailing system worked on my behalf, I guess how much greater do you feel this program works? Lance Johnson Like I said, a card mailing system, it's something that may work, but it goes back to how often do we open our snail mail anymore. If we don't get a bill electronically, we don't open the snail mail, so we're just taking a card mailing system and turning into the 21st century by turning it digital, turning it into something that's automatic and very advanced. Mark Miletello Again, the first thing you start off with is helping others get what they want. I think a lot of us missed the link as for how are we going to benefit from giving a real estate agent marketing software? Lance Johnson Well think about it. What does it start with a P&C agent? It's the home insurance, correct? Mark Miletello Correct. Lance Johnson The captive people looking for homes, their first point of contact is going to be a realtor, and realtors have a lot going on. They must show homes, they have to do open houses, they have to go try to get new clients. If you can create a technology package that works automatically for them so when they input their properties into whatever system they're using, and a product can create a website, a mobile site, a YouTube video, a virtual tour, a text code, other social media posts, give them all the print materials they need so they can print them, and do that automatically, you're going to make their life easier. That's the starting point is starting with the realtor, and once again, if you can have a loan officer work with that realtor, it goes back to helping everyone get what they want. A realtor gets to sell their home quicker, they're going to have more clients to give to the loan officer, the loan officer's going to get loans, and now your best referral as a PNC agent is a loan that needs insurance from that loan officer. Each level, the realtor's getting what they want, they're selling their homes. The loan officers are helping those realtors, so now they're getting referrals, and now you get a chance, and you're very clear. You want to quote everything that comes across that loan officers desk, so you have referrals. Each level, they're intertwined where you guys are all working together and it's the same goal. You're all getting what you want, which is building your networks and building more business. Mark Miletello Then we finally have circled back around to that first tip I believe that point blank, you've developed a concept and a software platform behind that concept to make the insurance agent part of that food chain. I guess we were part of that food chain, but not in the referral stages. We were a necessary part of that home being sold, and then having a loan, and then, of course, you need insurance, but what you're saying is the insurance agent is now a vital part of that process from a networking standpoint right off the bat, right? Lance Johnson That's correct. Basically, we've taken the insurance agent and made him, probably because the insurance agent can sponsor loan officers and/or realtors, you become the most important part of the relationship. Mark Miletello Well and I have obviously invested interest in this concept because you and I have developed it out together, but I've got to tell you Lance, and I've told you this before, 27 years of being licensed and being one of the leaders in this industry, I've never seen a marketing concept that has opened, and you know me. I must go out and prove something personally before I, number one; endorse it, and number two; recommend it to my own agents. You and I went out for several months marketing this concept just to see is it as good as we thought it was, and so tell us a little bit maybe about some of the mistakes that one might make in developing this, but also, I want to just say that it is one of the most dynamic concepts that I've seen in my career. Lance Johnson As you know, this is something that even took you, who's been in the insurance industry for your whole life a couple weeks to get, and what we've been trying to do is really, in the beginning I thought we sold all the features and all the benefits to it, which kind of glazed the eyes of the insurance agents over. Really what we're doing now is we're just, this system allows a seasoned insurance agent like yourself, or somebody brand new to go out and talk to any real estate or loan professional and try to network with them. They can set an appointment, I think Mark you can tell a story about one of your counterparts that he was trying to get in front of a bank for a year, with the software he got the appointment and you had to remind him to be selling himself. Do you want to tell them that story? Mark Miletello Yeah, I mean I could tell tons of stories just like that, and so can you where this software opened the door. First, you're giving a full suite platform marketing, you're giving it away to become a networking partner, so if you can't sell free, then I can't really help you. You're giving away a program that they need, want, or are already paying for. Once that door is open then the lead flow, and the connections and the relationships are built. I want to tell you, but you mentioned loan officers and real estate agents have a lot going on, but Lance, you have a lot going on. Tell us in addition to the IA Trainers technology, and training, and webinars, you help people connect with loan officers and real estate agents. The software connects them with real estate agents in their community and a lot of other things that they can get by following you after this show. Tell us some of the other things that you're working on that we're working on together, but I want to hear it from your perspective what your thoughts on the full platform, the training platform that you're developing and about to launch? Lance Johnson The agent marketing IA Trainers is the first piece of this, and as you know, I do a lot of research. When my wife became an agent, I kind of, I started looking and typing insurance agent training. I saw Geico, I saw Progressive, I even saw dog trainers. I even saw a dog trainer show up for insurance agent training because it was insurance and training for a dog. That was a keyword. I really looked at there was nothing new. There's so much technology, so together with industry experts like yourself, we're developing presentation tools so you could overcome objections, so the price isn't an issue. Groundbreaking, revolutionary ways to sell life insurance where it's not even a sale, it's a discussion where we have agents coming that used to get $100, or $200 a month in premium, they're getting $900 to $5,000 a month in premium now using technology. Tools with webinars and videos that are easy to use and to practice. You don't really train, you practice these techniques. I'm excited in the next coming months along with these podcasts, we're going to have some revolutionary, life-changing technology and just common-sense pieces to bring to agents. Mark Miletello Yes, and of course your host Mark Miletello, that's what the full suite is being launched under. MarkMiletello.com. You've talked about the life insurance discussion, the life insurance trainers, LIT, and you've also maybe touched quickly on the value sales presentation because really when I think of training agents, there are three areas that agents need the most help. First is marketing. I believe anyone can do this business if you can get in front of enough people, right? I mean that's really any business. I think that's the first challenge that I think you and I've tackled with your vision and your concept of how do you get in front of more people, and how do you get leads today, and how can you afford that? Because we know what the cost is for the old platforms of generating leads. If we can handle the marketing, that's I believe the first big hurdle. Number two is our pricing is all on the board. We talked a little bit about the industry news auto rates going up. Our rates are going up. There are some companies that don't take increases, or we take increases, and so your neighbor may in the old days your kind of new where you fit. Now, you could have one client insured and then the very next neighbor is double the rates. There's no rhyme or reason. It's all the thousands and maybe millions of factors in rate sophistication of these days. Number two Lance I think, and that's kind of where I'm leading is helping agents deliver a presentation and maybe win that client regardless of price. Can you kind of tell us a little bit about the value sales presentation, and what your thoughts on how professional that makes an agent look? Lance Johnson Here's the thing. A lot of agents can have their own Excel spreadsheets or their little four squares that they compare. What the value sales presentation does is it illustrate value. it's very easy to use, it's updated, the software is very, very intuitive. It puts in a nice comparison in a professional presentation of apples to apple comparison of what they have coverage wise, and what you are recommending. When this software's used correctly which is, as you know it's been developed so anybody can use it, it really overcomes any objections that anybody may have if it comes to any type of price, so- Mark Miletello Well said, and that's the goal is for it to help you win at any price. Number one is marketing, number two is closing the sale, and with pricing being all over the board you must have the psychology, and the training, and the tools behind the value sales presentation to win almost, hopefully, win every time. Number three you discussed is a life insurance transition, which is where us multiple-line agents struggle the most.  I'm excited to see the early results, and you're right, we're seeing agents go from $200 to $300 a month to thousands of monthly premiums in permanent life. The term is dropping the bucket in this new life discussion training. It's a full platform suite, and I've never seen anything that has been out there like this. Lance, I want to tell you to thank you for your vision and helping me put together I believe a state of the art, you and I went to an industry meeting together, and I think you were kind of shocked that there really hasn't been anything new in the last decade or two, right? Lance Johnson Yeah, and I mean when we went to that industry meeting and we found that we were the first new thing in what, seven or eight years with a new booth at this meeting, it blew me away. Mark Miletello Yeah, so I just want to say that I appreciate what you're doing for our industry, that the agents live that are changing either young, in the business, or veteran alike has reported back tremendous success in marketing. Two of my own agents including your wife, in general, has doubled, if not tripled their production with the IA Trainers piece. The value sales presentation has continued to help them succeed where pricing is difficult, and now the early success over the last two months of launching life insurance trainers is just unbelievable. Thank you for those tangible, those three tangible products, and technologies, and tips that you've given our industry. Lance Johnson Let me just say a couple things here. As you know, with technology, we have built this company to be very agile. As we get input from our members, our subscribers, we make changes. We don't know it all. That's what makes I think me, our partnership is great because you know what, we learn something new every day. Anytime we see something new, or anytime we hear about something that's effective, we'll be able to incorporate it into our platforms, so we'll always be something that's ... We want to make sure something's number one effective. We want to make sure something's affordable, and most of all, we want to make sure that something is actionable where you can go out and get things done and get leads today. Mark Miletello I love that because you have researched. You and I both have researched other training sites, right? How's yours differ? Lance Johnson Well honestly, we have it in such a way, a flow that it is ... Like I said we don't train people, we help people practice techniques to be successful. Everything is a very easy flow. Our training and practice videos are written and done in a way where you can understand it in real language, so it makes sense. When you're practicing presenting in front of everyday people, they're not insurance professionals, right? Mark Miletello That's right. Lance Johnson You need to talk in their language. We're always fine-tuning these, so- Mark Miletello What I love about the things that you put together is first, it's state of the art, it's easy to use like you said, but also the people that have really been initial users of your concepts and the things that I've helped add to that have really produced immediate results, like the same day an agent. One of my agents got into seeing 75 realtors. The other one got in to see 500 realtors the day they signed up for this program. It's immediate results of connections and referred leads, relationships that are built right off the bat. I think that to me is the most exciting thing about it because when I work on something and this collaboration you have had, I really want the listener or the user to be able to implement something immediately. I'm excited that you've built it in such a way that it can immediately help agents with their agencies change and change lives. Lance Johnson Like I said, I have a really quick story before we wrap it up. I spent a couple weeks in St. Louis, signed up some district, a pretty large insurance company and the next day, I signed up three loan officers, 50 realtors under one insurance agent's software. It's something that most insurance agents already have the connections, now we're putting those connections to work where everyone wants to give each other referrals. Mark Miletello Great point, Lance. How can someone find you? What's the best way to get in touch? Lance Johnson: We're very easy to find. We're at IATrainers.com. So InsuranceAgentTrainers.com. All the information's there. Also, MarkMiletello.com is kind of the group site where we're building this up because Mark you know, my vision is to make you an industry leader, a spokesperson for the new way to connect people and connect agents. It's either IATrainers.com or MarkMiletello.com would be great. Mark Miletello Very good. I want to thank the listeners, and I hope you picked up something in this podcast with Lance Johnson. If you'd like to hear more on this show, please go to iTunes and review, and rate us so that others can find us. I just want to say continue driving on. Lance Johnson Okay thank you. Like I said, to all our listeners, don't hesitate. If you hear something you think effective or neat, or something you think we could benefit from, reach out to us and let us know. Mark Miletello Well, you've listened to Mark Miletello podcast Where the Insurance Pros Meet. See you next time.  

General Agent, Matt Harness, shares how he recruits agents and launches a successful insurance agency. Learn what Matt says holds agents back. View more information at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, episode 10. Matt Hartness: We are our own worst enemy in what gets in the way of future production. Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome back to the show. We'd like to thank the listeners for tuning in. We have an exciting show as we always do. We have guests on this show that already with under 10 episodes launched, we have industry gurus. We've had outside talent, and marketing, and speaking, and coaching. We've had new agents. We've had leaders in the industry. I'm just crazy excited here to have a person that I have watched grow in this business from a producer to an assistant, associate general agent, and now has become the leading general agent in one of the top insurance companies in America. One of the oldest, and largest, and most dynamic companies in America. Welcome. Today, we're going to discuss with him recruiting and launching a successful agency. Welcome to the show, Matt Hartness. Matt Hartness: Thanks, Mark. I appreciate you having me today. I look forward to the conversation. Mark Miletello: Man, we got so much to learn from you. I just can't wait to extract it. Matt, I guess in the past, maybe I've mentored you a little bit. Would you admit to that, or no? Matt Hartness: Absolutely, man. I was early in my career, I was calling you or seeing you at various events out and about, picking your brain and asking questions. All along, I would have counted you as one of my mentors through my career, and still, I'd count you as a mentor. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you for that. I don't say that brag or to steal any of your thunder. What I say that too is a great mentor of mine, Garry Kinder, said "Hey, in the first three months, a new person does what you tell them to do. They don't know how to speak, so they speak like you speak. They walk like you walk. Then after that, you start to let them fly a little bit. Then before long, two to three years later typically, they become mentors of yours." That's what I'd like to say about you, Matt, is that you have now arrived at a place where I feel like we mentor each other. You are a mentor of mine, so congratulations on the hard work I know every step of the way, the hard work you've put to become based on the standards that they calculate. Now, I know there are rules here and there. You've become the leading general agent with one of the greatest companies in America, so congratulations on that. Thank you for mentoring me back now, which you have all along. Matt Hartness: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's been an excellent ride. As we're talking mentors, I could not have done it with many of people and even current teammates that I have now to make it happen. It's been a collaborative of a lot of people to help with the success that I am currently having today. Thank you very much for that. Mark Miletello: Well, I know you're right in the middle of it, and you're a busy person, so thank you for taking the time because I think your perspective is just what I love about this show, that people all across our industry will be able to hear from someone, and really like myself, there was a producer and worked all the way through those different levels to now you're in a management and a leadership role. And so, I think it's going to be very interesting to talk and hear some of the things that you're doing. I'm anxious to hear and learn from it. But, you mentioned some mentors along the way. Would you like to pause for a minute and maybe give some of your mentors' credit? Matt Hartness: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely want to give credit where credit's due. Mark, right off the bat early in my career, even actually before I started, I was handed a cassette, a CD cassette of books basically with Jack and Garry Kinder, had the Earl Nightingale information in there. And so, I literally took that information and started to just dissect it, take notes on it. And then years later, I got a chance to sit under Garry Kinder in an academy that lasted over the course of a year. So, got to personally interact with him some. And then just here in the last couple years as I was getting into the management, full-time management scene, I went out, and hired, and it was a long story how it came together, but an old, very old 43 years with one of the largest insurance companies in North America, and he had left that company being ranked the number three manager. And so, we struck a deal, and I just said, "Man, I'm ready to learn." For over a year, right after I got into management, I just learned from him and his name is Ron Strombon. He's just been a phenomenal coach. We were even running a meeting today, and he was there right by my side. There are many other people, but I would say that Jack and Garry Kinder, Ron Strombon, and another good friend of mine, who became a good friend is Steve Bramlett. He'd been a mentor of mine for many years. So, a number of people. The list goes on, but those would be three people, along with yourself and Dan Mueller, and a few other guys that just really have ... I just take information and run with it. So, thank you. Mark Miletello: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. I just want to see what's been there to mold someone that rises into a position that you. But I've got to tell you this, the calls I get from you, maybe one or two others have really called me consistently asking the questions. What I love about spending time and investing with you, that time is that I know when I ... you're like, Carl, one of my agents. I just know when I spend that time with you, by the questions you ask, you're doing something really special and you take it and you run with it, and you build upon it, and you give that feedback that, "Hey, here's how I made it work." Absolutely. As far as your career though, this shows about industry pros, and you are definitely a professional in this industry now. You've arrived, I can promise you that. Tell me in your own words maybe a little bit about your rise to success, your struggles. Tell us about your history of working up from scratch in this industry. Matt Hartness: Absolutely. Well, I'd have to give my background to pave the way for where I'm at today. I grew up, I was one of six kids, and we didn't have a lot when I was young. So, work ethic was something that I was taught early. Growing up, the idea of running my own little small businesses whether it was mowing yards or just making a buck somewhere, here, there, was important. And so, I quickly ... In high school, sitting down or when I was working, and I'm working with somebody, we're getting paid an hourly rate, and I know that I'm busting my rear. The guy next to me was sitting on the cooler all day. At the end of the day, we make the same amount of money, but we've put in two different levels of effort, I found frustrating. I quickly knew younger in my life that I wanted to be in an industry or in a position that I could get rewarded for my effort. Going to college, one of my dreams, even from a young boy was to live and work on a horse ranch someday. I got to do that. As soon as I got into college during the summer terms, I'd spend time out in Colorado on a horse ranch and would do that in the summers. Then after I ended up graduating from college, I moved out there full-time, was a wrangler. Did that for about a year, realized I couldn't make any money as a ranch hand, loved it, it was my passion, but I decided to move back to my hometown and get into the business world where I could hopefully come back, make some money and then go buy a ranch out the West someday. That's really where my background, and I quickly discovered the insurance business. What attracted me to the insurance business was that it didn't have a cap on my income, it had flexibility. If I wanted to work hard and then play hard, it gave me all that. And so, I started my career and I was an agent for about six years before the company, that I still work with at this time, approached me on becoming an assistant manager. They approached me there just because of some of the success that I was having as an agent. I got a chance to be in the assistant role along with keeping my personal agency. Then as time went on, the company saw that I was doing well there, and then they ended up coming along and asked them if I wanted to step into the full-time management route, of which I ended up taking, and the rest is history. Along that way though, we had a lot of success and hit some various awards, and financially was very rewarded for that as well. It's just been a great ride and something that I truly am grateful for because I know that there are so many other people in a lot of other industries that don't get near the satisfaction that I get out of my own job. Mark Miletello: And I've known you for quite some time, and I've watched your career, and I see that one thing that you do is you reinvest along the way. You invested in yourself as a producer, you reinvested, you took yourself to the next level, and even in management. You've looked around, and you've said, "I don't ..." You've humbled yourself in a way and said, "I don't know enough to be the greatest of my accord," and you've invested heavily in surrounding yourself. That's the mark of a true leader, is to surround yourself with those that complement you to get you to that level. I've seen that in you. Matt Hartness: Thank you very much. Yeah, I've read and heard various people talk about, "You'll become very similar or alike the five people that are closest to you in your life. Whether that's professional, personally, financially, that's who you become." So, one of my goals has been, at least in the business arena, to really try and stay in the game and surround myself with people that are doing the types of things that I want to be doing in my career so that I can get there. That's been one of my models and thankfully it's paying off. Mark Miletello: We're going to get into some of your professional advice. Thanks for sharing that. But before we do, I want to share with the listeners some of the things that you've been able to accomplish in a short amount of time you've been in a leadership role. As I had mentioned starting out the show, there's a lot of awards, there's a lot of rules and all that, but if you look the across the board statistics, you are ranked across the board as the number one leader with one of the largest and oldest companies in America. You also have a retention that's pretty much perfect. You have a retention of agents, which I cannot even begin to say that. You've been able to retain the agents that you've brought aboard, which is unbelievable. Just so the listener knows, you are in the multiple line industry. You do P&C and life. One of the pinnacles of property and casualty sales and life insurance sales as a multiple-line goes, you could be over a 20% as an agency, that's pretty much leading the industry. You are over 40%, right at 43% of your clients, your agent's clients have an auto, home, and life insurance. There's maybe a handful of agents with any multiple line company that can say that, yet your entire team is at close to 43%. You have 100% of your agents that were with you a full year last year. 100% of your agency is club qualifiers. Your life activity is ranking among the highest. One thing that impresses me that I must learn today to take back with my own team is how do you have such fast starts? Your agents are coming out ... Some of your agents held the record for a long time for a couple years now. The amount of production your team starts with, your agents start with, we've got to get to the bottom of. Let me shut up and get into this. Let's hear some of your professional advice. This podcast is about recruiting and launching a successful agency. Not just recruiting, not just launching, making sure that you're having success. Those indicators I just mentioned are the top indicators in the multiple line industry. First, let's break it down. How do you recruit that talent? Tell me that. Teach me that. Matt Hartness: Yeah. Absolutely, Mark. It's not easy. We go through a lot of actual interviews. Various companies, each company has different metrics that they will test on. Even when we get a lot of recruits or interviews that pass the various company standards, that's just one indicator for us of whether we should move forward or not with the candidate. What I've seen is that various companies ... If that candidate passes that test, that's a green light for that candidate to be hired. If you were to look at the amount, the volume of interviews or the people that have taken those types of tests with my agency, you'd go, "Man, there's a lot of people that passed that test that wasn't offered an agency, didn't have the requirements to hit the agency standards of what we're looking at when we're hiring." I would say that one, just a lot of ... We're weeding through a lot of interviews to really find the kind of talent that we're going after. Mark Miletello: Well, let's back up from there. Matt Hartness: The second- Mark Miletello: Where are you getting those ... I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've got to know. What platform are you using to have that number of interviews? Matt Hartness: ... Honestly, it goes back to just the good old referrals and agent referrals. I've asked my agents and I did, to be fair, I had, as I mentioned earlier, probably I guess it would've been eight years before I got into full-time management. I had eight years of networking and growing a local market, building a personal book of business that I could go out and meet people, and- Mark Miletello: A lot of people saw that success and so you had a warm market of referrals, that's for sure. Matt Hartness: ... Absolutely, yeah. That was something that has helped, but I know not everybody has a warm market and it still works. Agent referral has been the biggest area for me of where we're really ... And that doesn't necessarily mean my own agents, and that doesn't necessarily mean my own companies agents. That could be building relationships with other companies and with other agents outside of my own company, and maybe in a different market than the local market than I'm in here, and just building those relationships. "Hey, I know that you guys are recruiting a lot of people too, but you also might not have an opportunity that's available for a person. If you see somebody that comes across the grid that you would put your stamp of approval on, then would you potentially consider giving them to me if you saw somebody that you can't take on where you're currently at?" Mark Miletello: I look back at my own team- Matt Hartness: So, that's... Mark Miletello: ... I look back at my own team, and 90 plus percent of my agents came from referrals. Yet, I spent many, many years doing. I think having all type of fishing lines in the water in building a team is important, but that's overwhelming that I would say, and probably the same for you, 90% are referred. Matt Hartness: Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. I was actually thinking too that the other night and was like, "Yeah, I'm pretty much ... I have had a little bit of luck with getting online leads, but for the most part, we've gotten all of ours through some type of a referral system." And that's what's worked the best. Mark Miletello: I interrupted you. You were on point one of recruiting, and I think point two, you were going to go into how you filtered through that talent. I'd like to try to get back on track because it's something I should not have interrupted. Matt Hartness: No, not a problem. Not a problem. The other piece, is I believe everything ... not everything. A large part of management is casting the right kind of expectations. Where you see a mediocre performance, in my opinion, it's a reflection of management. Whether it's paying attention to, as they say, "The checker gets what the checker checks," or it's allowing lower performance to happen, or it's casting just a lower expectation to recruit, is eventually what you get as a manager. We really work very hard in our recruiting to weed out through our large expectations of what we're looking for, those that aren't willing to put in the effort that I believe it's going to take to be successful in our business. That can be various ways, but really, "Here's what the day-to-day's going to look like. Here's what I'm going to require as a manager as far as your onboarding. Here's capital that it's going to require." Right there when you start talking about, "Here's what our expectations are," I shouldn't say requirements, but, "Here's what our expectations are as me as your coach and mentor. You need to make this many calls, and you need to have this many people that you've gotten permission from to give them a free look at their insurance needs. Here is that capital requirement." That alone, when those expectations are high, really raises the bar for entry level. I really believe with all my heart that's what has given us such strong, fast starts, and then has also continued to help maintain the production level that we're getting with each individual agency. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Okay. You have a great system of referring and interviewing. I would assume the mentor that you brought on board helps you select the right talent, maybe several in your organization. You have a culture now. Of course, in the beginning, you had expectations, but now you built a culture of high performance, high expectation, right? Matt Hartness: Yeah, absolutely. You bring up a good point. The expectations on the front end when you're recruiting are all going into the type of culture that we're trying to create and then maintain or even strengthen. One of my fundamental goals as a brand-new manager, when I was getting, started was I literally I called ... I had to go back and shatter my old reality. My old reality. Even with the success that I have as an agent, I realized, man, this thing could go to a whole another level of production. We're just giving agents a roadmap to success. By shattering the old reality, that was going back and really trying to knock out old bad habits that I might've had. Then also begin to lay a foundation for new habits that we're trying to implement. Whether it's the number of households we're trying to talk to daily, whether it's the number of phone calls or the number of policies we're trying to write. All of that had to be reconstructed and so we had to work hard to get a new model set. Really the first year that I was in the business was going back and really doing away with a lot of the old and then with my hires, it was critical that they were really what I call my foundational pieces to build upon. I did find some, what I call heavy hitter workhorses, and those two agents have become really what we look for and what I attract talent too. Now, I say, "Go talk to these guys. Go look at their operations. Here are their productions." They have now, because of what they're doing, that's just the norm in our agency. I'm still actually waiting for the day that those guys become the norm and we get a heavier hitting workhorse that comes through because the new expectations for people coming in- Mark Miletello: Takes it up even another level. Matt Hartness: ... Takes it up. Mark Miletello: Yeah. You've talked to us a little bit. When I looked back at some of your great accomplishments, activity, I think drives all of that, all of that. We're going to probably specifically in a minute talk about how your team has such a high three-line percentage of auto, home, and life. But, before we do that, talking about having 100% club qualifiers, the tremendous fast starts that your agents have, and the high ... This is all driven by high activity. I'm having several challenges. Now, you and I talked about, before this call, we were talking about me launching a new life insurance discussion. As we talked about, I had led the company to life insurance sales. So, what did I need to fix? I told you that I had to throw it all out. I had to throw it all out and revamp it. I think that's what I hear you saying in the management leadership role that ... You were telling me right in the beginning. I remember this as you said that. You were saying some of the expectations you were setting when interviewing your first few interviewees, and I said, "Wow. The bar to come on your team is really high." I got to tell you, I didn't doubt you because I know your ability, but part of me says, "Man, that's a high bar to set." I was concerned that maybe that bar was too high, but obviously you've shown and proved that if you set the expectation, they will rise to that expectation, and I need to consider, and that's why I have you on this call, and that's why you're now my mentor as well. I need to consider raising that expectation and that bar. I definitely agree that sometimes we have to throw away and redo it. To evolve as leaders, just like producers, you must evolve. Part of that evolution is to throw away some of those bad habits. You know what, Matt? It's hard to do. A lot of people cannot do it. I commend you for the fact that to evolve, you've got to recognize that, but you also have to throw away a lot of things that come naturally or you've learned along the way to develop that. Getting back to the two points that I want to dive into, which is high activity, which has produced those club qualifiers and those fast starts. You and I have talked. I think we talked an hour a few months ago regarding the activity. How do you have your new reps coming in? How do they have the activity that you've been able to expect out of them? That to me is one of the most important things you're doing right now. Matt Hartness: There's a couple pieces to it. It's more a concept. What I learned through Ron, who I mentioned earlier, he came in, he said, "First what we've got to do when we're trying to drive, and this can go for various categories, but one in the activity category is we've got to establish the what. What are we trying to accomplish here? What kind of production do we want to have? That becomes the static piece to the equation. The what doesn't change. What does change in the equation is who's going to help us do it, and how's it going to get done? The what always remains the same. The who is the team that's going to make it happen. Then the how is the strategy behind it." What we've done when I'm onboarding recruits and we're talking about high expectations and driving activity is we said, "Here is the activity that's got to get done. Here, before I ever start you as an agent, here are the numbers that you're going to have to reach, the number of households that you're going to have to have permissions to quote before I'll ever start you. Whether that's you going out and knocking doors, making phone calls, going through your own pipeline of people that you know. Whether that's you by yourself, that could help get to the what, or maybe we need to go to the who, and say, "Is that who going to be you and a couple other people?" Part of the expectation is that they're bringing on staff before they ever start. It's a big leap of faith for them because some of these agents or new agents are coming in without experience. But I really believe with all my heart, and as the industry would indicate, that those that have key members have much more success right off the bat versus trying to build your agency as a standalone one person show, and then as you have income investing in that person later. I say invest in the business up front, which goes into why we require the capital. We establish the what upfront, and so we have the what, and then we also say, "Okay. You as the agent, before you become an agent, and then potentially those that you're going to be hiring on as your team members are going to help. Here's how it's going to happen. They're going to help you get that what, which is the number." That's really been one of our sole ways of driving activity right off the bat. Then, it goes back to the old motto, "You give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. You teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." The onboarding piece for us is huge because if my agents before they become agents don't have enough time in a day to get the amount of ... I mean, their days are packed full of trying to squeeze out the number of households they're required to have before we start them. But what that's doing is it's giving them rep after rep, after rep of teaching them how to fish, teaching them how to go out and talk to people, build their confidence, get turned down a bunch. But man, when they're ready to go live, they've got a whole pot of names of people that have given them permission to give them a free look at their insurance. Mark Miletello: That comes through a warm market, that comes through referrals, that comes through cold calls, that comes through networking. So, that comes through everything that they can do, right, to get those permissions to quote if you will? Matt Hartness: That's right. Absolutely. The what, you establish your number. I've got my first agent, and I am so proud of him. His name's Anthony. He was coming from previous experience, and he was my first agent to bring on as a manager. I had some nervous butterflies, and of course, he did too. He was coming. He was making great money with his previous company, but it got real for me. I talked about, man, the multiple line opportunity is so much better because he was counting how many people you're having to turn down because you can't write their home and auto insurance, and those are all people that ... That's additional revenue income you can pick up. I ended up telling him, "You've got to have ..." I said, for him, I said, "You have to have, to accomplish what you need to accomplish, you're going to need to have 1,000 PTQ's." That's what we call permissions to quote. He goes out. We took on, and there was obviously a lot of time and energy that went into the business planning behind it. But as time's going on, I see that he's getting behind in the amount of PTQ's. He had a three-month window to get it done. You can do the math on how many that is per day, it's a lot of people. As time's getting closer, he calls me one night and he says, "Hey, what's going to happen if I don't have all my PTQ's?" I literally, I just said, "Man, let's not have to answer that question. If you get it done, we don't have to find out the result." It was playing hardball, but I didn't want to set him up for failure, and I knew it'd took for his success. It came down to the night before he was supposed to start his agency. He had put in three months, sacrificed a lot, moved career from one company to another. It was like nine o'clock the night before he was supposed to go live, and I text him. I said, "How many PTQ's do you have?" He said, "I'm 17 short." My heart literally sunk to the ground. So, now I'm a guy of my word, and he's short. I don't think I'm going to be able to start him tomorrow. He's a jokester, and I'm just kind of letting the time ... I'm sitting there, how do I respond to this text message? About 15 minutes later, he responds, "But I'm headed to the bar." I kid you not, he heads out. It was around 10 o'clock at night, and I had a hard time sleeping that night because I had no idea what he was going to have next morning. It was a Thursday morning, September 1, 2016. I called him first thing. I said, "Are you going to be able to start today, you and your team?" And he said, "I didn't get my 17 ..." He said, "I didn't my 1,000th." I said, "Oh, great." He said, "I got 1,005." He said, "I went to the bar. I only found three people last night at the bar that would give me an opportunity to quote," but he's like, "Where else could I go late on a Wednesday night that I could find a bunch of people?" He said, "Softball fields, man. Late night softball." He went out and he worked multiple dugouts and got a total of 1,005 PTQ's. Mark Miletello: Wow. Wow. Matt Hartness: That was a moment for me that I realized that when you believe in somebody, and they believe in a concept, and you increase the expectations, that we are our own worst enemy in what gets in the way of future production. Now, I've learned that through you, I've learned that through Dan Mueller, I've learned that through the Kinders. Anthony was a great example. To this day, he is still my highest producer. He just does an excellent job. But that's the type of expectations that we had on him. That's what I mean by establishing the what, and then figuring out who's going to get it done, and how's it going to get done? Mark Miletello: Yeah, wow. I don't even want to recap that because you put it simply. But, I think it's so valuable what you've said, it deserves a recap of you set the production, you called it static, it's set for that period, the "what", the who... Is it going to be you? Is it going to be staff? Is it going to be producers? But who's going to help you get to that what, and how are you going to get there? Let's talk strategy and your permissions to quotes and calls. You tell me that story, and it just reminds me of me, Garry Kinder was on the show. The great Garry Kinder. His mentorship for me as well for you, but we talked about a story where if I held a gun to your head, and you told me you were going to hit MDRT this year, could you do it? Of course, you would say yes, but you couldn't promise it because you can't control the outcome. But what you can control is if it requires you to talk to 10 people a day to have this many to filter it down to the Garry funnel, and he and I talked about that, you can. That story is a perfect example, and I love the fact that you paused before you responded, like I probably would've. "Hey, man. You did well. Come on." You paused, and you let him make that decision, and he controlled the activity by, hey, if there's a deadline, and basically there was a proverbial gun to his head that the next day if he wanted that bad enough, he would make it happen. By golly, he made a way to make it happen. So, you're right, he controlled that activity. Matt, we've all had mistakes, and I know some of yours. We've talked, we've shared both of ours. Tell me something that maybe if you were to do all over again you would do differently. Is there anything that you could think back on that you would change to help us not make that same mistake? Matt Hartness: One of the mistakes I think I would avoid early on if I'm talking to an agent is not believing or believing that I can't do more and limiting myself. What I mean by that is not investing in my business, such as with the right kind of people or with enough people early on, and trying to be more of a one-person show versus could I do more early on with more people? And learning how to invest in the business wisely without just frivolously throwing money away. That would be one of my areas of mistake is that I did have success by myself, but I absolutely believe that bird in one. If I can be equipped, and trained, and know how to go out and hire somebody, or a couple two or three people right off the bat, train them well, that our efforts collaboratively can catapult an agency early versus waiting to do that down the road. Obviously, there are different measures that go into that. But that would be one of my biggest regrets looking back is that, while I had success, and I knew I was having success, it could've been a lot more with just a couple tweaks to what I was doing. Mark Miletello: Right, right. Normally, where I go from here is I say, "You get a do-over, you get a mulligan." Really what you've told us in the beginning and throughout this show is about how to have a successful practice in today's climate if you've shared with us anything. So, I'm going to skip that, and I'm going to move right onto the years 2028. It's 10 years down the road, Matt. What are our agents going to have to do? What are we going to have to do to be relevant in 10 years? Again, I think you've kind of answered that question too, in that you must set it up with high expectations, high activity. But, where do you see our industry in 10 years, and how do we fit in? Matt Hartness: Yeah. I really believe that our industry's headed towards there's going to be a lot fewer agencies, but a lot larger agencies. I think that the number of agents that are out there is going to be less. I believe that the quality of the agencies and the size of the agencies are going to be more. My play is that if I can recruit well, cast clear, high expectations, invest in my team members the way that I believe they need to be invested in, that they can get off to a fast start in their career, have success, catch the vision of the success that they can have. They can build a team early and as competition only increases in the market space that we'll have, we'll be able to pull around. I do believe, like I said, that insurance will be around for a long time, but the quality of the agent and the size of the agent is what I'm focusing on. And so a lot of- Mark Miletello: We like to throw out the term mega agencies, right? Mega agencies. I think what you're building, and you've already laid the groundwork for in your expectations, and your strategies, and the how, and the who, all those are building this platform to become if you want to call it that, mega-agencies. Larger agencies, more quality agencies that are here to handle whatever challenges our future brains. But, I think you're positioning yourself to be here 10 years from now, and you will be the competition. You are the competition right now, but I think that's what you're trying to say is that you will have these qualities, bigger agents that are highly staffed, high producing, right? Matt Hartness: Absolutely. What I mean by a bigger agency, obviously profitable, they've got producers. But, I saw a visual of this years ago that another mentor of mine, Gary Luckovich showed me. I didn't believe it at the time, because once again, back to my regret, I just didn't believe in what I thought was the impossible. It's called the agent of the tomorrow, and it's just the idea that inside of a single agency, you're going to have a future agent that I'm developing now will have. The agent will run the agency and still be in the day-to-day operations. But then they're going to have a specialist in all different categories. They're going to have potential ... They're going to have a call center that's driving leads. They're going to have a potential marker that's also outside driving leads from other areas in the local market. They're going to have a life insurance specialist. That life specialist could potentially [inaudible 00:41:38] over into a financial service, an investment specialist as well possibly. That might be a two-person department. Second would be a commercial specialist who might have a home, an auto specialist, a health insurance specialist, et cetera. Then obviously there are people to support the servicing side of each of those categories. It's a very systemic, long-term approach to how to really run a well-organized agency through those different departments. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you, Matt. Winding down here, just like to always find something new, direction. That's what I wanted this platform to be as people like yourself from all walks of life, all expertise levels, but also to show us where to go to find the best. If you feel that this person, or this article, or this book, or this technology is something that we should investigate. Do you have anything that you would maybe drive us to that you're reading or that it would influence us right now? Matt Hartness: Couple of my favorites lately. I've just finished the John Maxwell's 21 Indispensable Laws of Leadership. Phenomenal book on just the principles that you can take to develop a leadership. Then also, to try and re-coach those into your agents, and then the agents can try, and work instill those into their team members. Never Eat Alone, I'm drawing a blank on the author there. But Never Eat Alone is just the concept of continual growth and the ability to network with people, and not just to be a taker, a consumer, but also to invest in the lives of others, to find out what other people are interested in. As you are trying to network and grow, it would also be that you're trying to help others grow and get to where they want to be. So, there's a very mutual type of interest there. Never Eat Alone was another phenomenal book that my consultant gave to me, Ron, before I even started in my management position. Both have been great pieces of information for me as I continue to grow in my own learning. Mark Miletello: You're not in front of a computer, I am. Never Eat Alone is Keith Ferrazzi, right? And I've read- Matt Hartness: That's correct. Mark Miletello: ... I've read the John Maxwell book, so I will now order that one. Thanks for that recommendation, and Matt, I got to tell you once again, thank you for your time. Hey, you're giving information to your competition that's across the country or right next door, because you're like me. You want to share. That's how you got there. I know when I invited you to come to the show, I hoped that you would do it because of our relationship, but I also know you were okay doing it because you want to help others succeed. In this industry, we can lift each other up. So, I see you as that person. I feel partly like me, that I want to give and help others so that they don't have the challenges that I have, and they can have the success that I have because this industry has that great success. I want to tell you, thank you for the time you've taken out of your very busy schedule. Thank you for the gold nuggets. I just think this industry, it's like the field of diamonds. But since I said gold nuggets, let's stick with that. It's like there are gold nuggets sitting under our feet, and all we must do is to know how to reach down and pick up that gold nugget. Why does one agent make six big, six figures or seven figures, and one agent's struggling 10 years down the road? They just don't know how to pick up the same gold nuggets that's by their feet. And you as a leader, you're reaching down and picking up all these gold nuggets that we're walking right over as leaders. Thank you for sharing with us how you're picking up these nuggets. Thanks for throwing those gold nuggets our way. Now, we must learn to reach down. We don't know what we don't know, so we're going to try to walk that path, mentor under this, listen to this. Thanks for the time for sharing with this, Matt. I very much appreciate it and honored to have you on the show. Matt Hartness: Hey, Mark, truly has been my pleasure, and once again I reiterate it takes a tribe to make it happen, and I've had an unbelievable group of mentors, and friends, and colleagues that have helped make that happen. So, it's not just me, it's a lot of people that have gone into the success that we're having. Thanks for having me on your show today. Mark Miletello: Absolutely. God, Will and I can't wait to watch some of the success you're going to have over the years to come and the decades to come. I'll see you on the trips. So, see you at the top of the charts. Matt, thank you. And hey, if you like what you hear on this show, go to iTunes, rate, review our show, and we'll see you next time on Where the Insurance Pros Meet.

Guest Morris Sims shares why you have to know your "why". Recognizing how purpose drives us can help you finally get to the bottom of your "why" and cause you to excel in business. Thinking on purpose is a must for success. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode 9. Morris Sims: Figure out what you're real why is. You're going to find out that it is absolutely wrapped in passion, that why drives me to get myself up and out of bed at five o'clock in the morning. Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together, managers, coaches and producers, the very best experts that insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to Where the Insurance Pros Meet. I'm your host Mark Miletello. Today, we're going to discuss thinking on purpose, recognizing how purpose drives us. Now, our guest has been on Where the Insurance Pros Meet before discussing his book Practical Influence and how influence affects us. But today, we're excited to having back and share and influence us again regarding another important topic in a salesperson's mindset purpose. Again, he's trained over 80,000 agents, managers. I can't even wrap my brain around the work that he's done in this field. One of our industry's thought leaders and coach, Morris Sims, welcome back to the show. Morris Sims: Mark, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me again. Mark Miletello: Wow. I'm excited to have you again and thanks for coming back. Such a great topic we had last time, so I'm tremendously excited to jump right in this. But before I do, Morris, do you golf at all or no? Do you try? Morris Sims: I tried. At one point in my life, I tried and figured out that every time I hit that little white ball, it would go about 75 yards straight down the fairway and then turn 90 degrees to the right and I had never been able to get past that. My golfing now is at the range with my son having a nice adult beverage while he hits the golf balls. Mark Miletello: Well, that way you can enjoy it, right? You and I the last conversation we had was about my late father. And I remember every time I went with him in course, he was my mentor in the business. He was one of the greats in the industry. He was one of the ... Well I’ll tell you he was the number one agent under Combined Insurance with W. Clement Stone. I want to have maybe an entire other show about him one day, but I remember being on the course with him and every time I would swing, he would have like five tips so by the time the end of my game, I would have a terrible swing that we tried ... We didn't practice at all. We just went out on the field and by the end of the game, I was swinging this awkward swing and was mentally ... I couldn't even handle pulling that club back and striking the ball because he had so many tips. Finally, after a while, I'd say, "Look, just quit coaching me," and I think about that and how it relates to insurance and especially new reps that go out there without practicing, without refining their skill and I think they're going to have a par round in the world of sales and that's just not the case, is it, Morris? Morris Sims: No, it's not. It takes a lot of focus and a lot of hard work to get there. The key in my mind is that, well, it does take work. Anything that's worthwhile takes work and this is worthwhile, and it takes some effort, but you can do it. You can do it. It is certainly achievable and has been achieved by thousands and thousands of men and women across the ages. Don't ever give up. It may be difficult to get started but every minute of work that you put into it, I could promise you that. Mark Miletello: Well, and I've read in one of your writings that you said what I've said on the show, "If I can do it, anyone can." And of course, you're being very humble, but I think you're right in the fact that professional insurance agents and related financial services, we come from all walks of life and there are people that I have recruited and trained. And I would look at this individual and say, "Man, that is one ... You're going to be the best agent I've ever brought on board." Then, I've had some that you just sometimes, you cannot tell who wants it bad enough. I think one thing that I've learned is it is a learnable skill. It's those who have maybe this burning desire that we've heard many times, this something driving them, but the information is there. We just must learn it and practice it. At golf, there's no shortage of tips and advice out there to tell us how to be better. Can you start off the show with ...? Our show is about purpose but, Morris, can you start off our show with a tip or an advice that we can maybe improve our game with? Morris Sims: I'll be happy to try, Mark. I think it really has to do with just what we're talking about today, thinking on purpose. That's a line that hit my mind about a year ago and I realized that very few of us sit down and think on purpose. Our thoughts are the result of stimulus and Lord knows there's a lot of stimuli out there today from the telephones that we have in our pocket to the computers, to the books, to the people. You see, or you hear something, and you think about it. When was the last time you sat down to think on purpose about what it is you really want in life? I think that's the key to the whole thing is becoming clear, really crystal clear about what you want and here's the key, Mark. Be clear about what you want and why you want it. As you were saying earlier, you think it's that burning desire that people have that make them successful in this business and I would propose that it's in any business. That really comes back to that "why". Why do you want to do this? Why are you in this business? What's important to you? We'll talk more about this as we go along, but I think that's the best tip I could give you is to stop, sit down, have a piece of paper and pen, think on purpose what is it you want and why you want it. Mark Miletello: Yeah, I guess I can relate to that. We get so busy sometimes that we don't put our purpose out there, why and our focus and maybe in the short term it's to pay our bills. But it needs to be much more than that is what you're saying? Morris Sims: It does. It needs to be a whole lot more than that, and it is a whole lot more than that. But we rarely stop to take the time to figure it out. The other thing that I love to tell folks is that when you get down to the real bottom line when you figure out what you're real why is, you're going to find out that it is absolutely wrapped in passion and fueled with emotion. Wrapped in passion and fueled by emotion. To pay my bills doesn't sound very passionate or emotional, but to provide for my family, a house or a home, a house ... Let's take that one for a moment. To provide for my family a house that they can live in that has a nice backyard for the kids to play in can be very emotional when you stop and add the rest of it to that "why" which is I never had a house to live in. We always lived with my Aunt Sarah and Uncle Jim because dad died early, and mom couldn't afford a house. We lived in apartments after we lived with Aunt Mary and Uncle Jim, and I'm going to get a home and a house for my kids. Now, it's wrapped in passion and fueled with emotion. When I can remember that, it's going to change my behavior. Mark Miletello: Well, I get it. I get it. That's why I wanted to have you back, Morris, is I think you're right on is that rather than focusing on paying our bills or making a sale or this, the why behind it is the purpose. It's what's the purpose of us being a success ... Or just going out there and going into that grind or the trenches as you call it. Yeah, I totally get that and thanks for sharing that. Morris, we had you once before but for a listener that did not catch that series, you maybe share with us your professional history of where you've been and thanks for sharing that personal story and maybe how that shaped your purpose along the way. But I'd love to hear more about your career as well. Morris Sims: I'll be happy to, Mark. It's kind of interesting. I started my career as a chemical engineer after graduating from Auburn University and did that for five years, and I was mediocre. I was okay. I was getting promoted and good things were happening, but it just wasn't any fun. I know some really great engineers, and the guys I was working with were really great people, but we weren't having a whole lot of fun all day long, and you realize that you spend more time with the people you work with than you do with your family sometimes. I wanted to do something that was fun and about that time, my insurance agent came to the house because we had a brand new baby, and I thought, "Gee, you know what? He does look like it could be fun." Sure enough, the recruiter called me, and we went through a six-month recruiting process and eventually, long story short, I became a New York Life agent and was successful doing that for three years, and they said, "Hey, why don't you come over here and train other people to do what you do." I went into management and- Mark Miletello: You rose as one of the top trainers not only in that company but in the nation. That's a pretty big rise to success. Do you feel like just that schooling of accomplishments or did that mindset of having that engineer and scientific mindset helped you in any way in what we do in the world of sales or training or mentoring? Morris Sims: It did, Mark. I always had a penchant and a desire to try and help other people. That is what enticed me about training if I could help other people become successful. Folks always say in our business at least, "What do you want to do? Do you want to be a coach or be a player?" If you want to be a player, then stay an agent and go out there on the field every day and play the game and play as hard as you can and help as many people as you can. If you want to be a coach, go into management and then you can help coach those players to be even better at that what they do. I apologize for this sports analogy but that's the deal. For me, helping other people get better at what they do all day long became one of my why's, one of my purposes for what I wanted to get up and do every day. Mark Miletello: Well, no, don't apologize for the sports analogy. I do it all the time and in fact, I like the salaries that professional athletes have, and I see some of the greats in our industry do the same. That's why I want to help our listeners become a professional in this business, so they can experience that upper-level income that this business can reward you with. Last show that I had you and I made a commitment to myself that I was going to try to dig out some of that history in your illustrious career and those relationships that you made. I'm going to say it this time, and can you think of a couple of meetings that you've had or relationships that you've met along the way in a 30-year wonderful career of leading one of the nation's largest and most prominent life insurance companies? I want to know a little bit of maybe some of those people that you've met along the way. Morris Sims: As I began to move into management, the managers that I had at the general offices, the local agencies that I worked in Monroe, Louisiana and Little Rock, Arkansas were some absolutely great individuals and about as opposite of two people as you might ever want to know. The first gentleman, [Markie Jones 00:12:38] was an absolute expert at recruiting and managing and being ... I learned more from him about how to do that job of coaching agents than probably anyone else in the world. Then, I went up to Arkansas and I had a gentleman there, Tom Gilder, who was just a wonderful relationship person. He had never met anybody he didn't know and love and care about, and the people around him and his agents were ... They would follow him into whatever battle he wanted to lead them into or jump off whatever cliff he wanted them to jump off, and I was usually out there in front saying, "I'll do whatever Tom tells me to do." He was just that kind of an individual.I learned a lot about building relationships with him. The other guys, I've had the privilege of knowing, three CEOs at my company at New York Life. I've known a whole bunch of executive and senior vice presidents and these are people who some of them began as agents and became head of distribution for huge billions, several billions of dollars' worth of insurance company. These guys all had one thing in common, I believe, they all cared about what they were doing, and they cared about the people they were doing it for more than they cared about themselves. I think that is always going to be the bottom line with truly long-term success. Now, you may have some short-term success out there with people that are ahead, just for them that are greedy and all they want is them and they're all that's important. I think when you find a long-term success, you're going to find someone who does genuinely care about other people. Let's look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, they're talking about giving away what, half or three-quarters of everything they own? Because they care about helping other people. I think that's probably the bottom line for the whole thing, Mark. Mark Miletello: Well, thanks for sharing that and it just reminds me that most of the greats in this industry stand on the shoulder of others. I think it's kind of nice to give a shout out to those whether they hear it or not or whether anyone connects or not, at least you are able to share the influence that they've had on you. Getting back to really your professional advice and when you say thinking on purpose, you explained that in the opener a little bit about what you mean on thinking on purpose. I think back to the conversation we had about focusing on what you want and more of the "why", more of the purpose. But don't we really all have an idea of what we want in life but how does that relate to our business? Morris Sims: Another great question, Mark. The key I think is this: We all think we know what we want. We all believe that we have our purpose and it's probably pretty well lined out. Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of our listeners out there who are saying, "Hell, no, not me. I really don't. I'm just going through the motions." That's okay too but at some point, in time, you have to stop and realize I need to make sure that what I think is my why, why I do this every day, I need to make sure really is what resonates them deep in my soul. I need to make sure that it really is much more than going to work every day and doing what I'm told to do for eight or six or 10 hours or whatever the case may be. Thinking on purpose means you take that time, as I mentioned earlier, to sit down and actually think about what it is you want in this world, in life, what it is you want and why. I think the why is probably again the most important part of the whole deal. Mark Miletello: Yeah. I've heard you say that and Richard Weylman used that. We talked about that considerably. Why is why that important in just the words that you use? Morris Sims: I think it's the most important thing there is out there. We can forget about a lot of things but if we ever forget our "why", then we're in deep trouble. Why is the reason that I set the alarm clock for 5:00 a.m. and get up every day. I'm loving what I'm doing right now, Mark, so much. Thirty-two years with a great company was fantastic but I wasn't as excited about getting up in the morning as I am today. That alarm clock goes off at five o'clock and I'm up and excited about what I'm going to get to do today and how this day is going to go because I know why I'm doing it. I'm doing it in order to accomplish what I want for my family. I'm going to be able to provide for them the things that the choices ... I want to give them the choices that they'd never been able to have before because either I was working all the time or traveling but I want to give them those choices to be able to do things they've never been able to do before and I want to fund our charities. We have charities that were involved with that feed hungry people. I want to fund those charities and that means, I've got to go out and help people and help them well enough and help them enough that they're willing to provide some revenue for my company. In doing so then, I can fund my charities and help my family. That why drives me to get myself up and out of bed at five o'clock in the morning and start on the journey of that day to figure out what I can do to be of service to the folks out there in the world that are trying to find their own purpose and get up and get going every day. Mark Miletello: Well, exactly. I believe in my career, I just don't think sometimes we coin it. We realized we put it down on paper that while we're doing things, we set goals and we have benchmarks, but really, you've said it perfectly that really the purpose that we're going for if we can really write down and focus on the purpose. I remember as a brand-new agent, I wanted a Harley so bad and I guess, in the South, you mentioned Monroe, Louisiana. I don't know if you know that that's where I'm from, so I love you already. Morris Sims: Fantastic, yeah! Mark Miletello: I had this picture of ... Every time I would open my desk drawer, I would see the picture of Harley. Then, I ended up owning a Harley and wrecking it, almost killing myself so therefore, that purpose, that why kind of faded away. But I think especially a younger agent that did not have really a family and all those charities to support maybe, that has to be a motivator. You're why, the purpose you're getting up must be something other than, like I said earlier, just paying your bills. You need a big ... Like Gary Kinder, I guess, would say, "Audacious [Harry 00:20:04] Dream." How do you think on purpose to get to your why? How does purpose drive you to get to what drives you? Morris Sims: The real deal is what I mentioned before. It must be wrapped in passion and fueled with emotion. If we can get it back down to something that really motivates us to move, then it's going to be easier to pick up the phone and make those calls. It's going to be easier to go walk into that business that you've never walked in before and try and meet the guy that owns the business or the lady that runs the show. You got to have that "why" to make that last call and then make one more call before you go home in the evenings. Mark Miletello: That might be the difference, I think. Morris Sims: That's right. Mark Miletello: That might be the difference in why some get through and give it that extra effort. Morris Sims: I think so entirely. I absolutely believe that. For me, personally, it was always about building the family and getting the family to the places that I wanted them to get to. Quick story, Mark, it might wind up on the editing floor and that's okay. My dad died when I was three weeks old. He decided that he didn't need to be around anymore. He took his own life. From that point forward, mom had two kids to bring up in this old world. We literally did live with my aunt for a while and then live in apartments until I bought the first house that I ever lived in with my lovely bride, Carla, in New Orleans. I wanted my kids to have those things that I never got to have. I wanted my kids to be able to do those things that I never got to do. That's what fueled me every day and let me tell you, buddy, that's wrapped in passion and fueled with emotion even today. It still is and that's what gets you up and gets you moving is when you can find that thing that you really are passionate about, that thing that really does touch your heart. And that's why I'm getting up, and that's why I'm making that phone call, and that's why I'm going to make one more call before I go home. That's what you're looking for, for sure, I believe. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you for sharing that. I'm very, very sorry, but I am very warmed to hear the story when you bought your first house. I bet that was a defining moment in your career. I know I have some of the same types of goals that I had said, and I think back to those moments that really were special, those benchmarks that your purpose and your why came together and provided you with really what this business can provide you, the great lifestyle that this business can provide you with. So, thank you for sharing that. Morris Sims: Well, you're very welcome. I think the other piece that really has to be there, and the heart of any good insurance agent today is what you're doing for others. If you can get in your head and in your mind the fact, it's not just the thing, it's the fact that what you do helps people, what you do makes a difference in their lives and it changes their lives for the better. When you can get that focus to realize that, "I'm going out tonight to help these folks plan for their retirement. And you know what? And the possibility that if I don't go out there and if I don't do that with them and do it well, they may not have the same kind of retirement they could have as if I were to go out there and do that work." You got to believe in what you do, Mark. One of the old objections that I used to hear from is, "Well, that guy just told me he doesn't believe in life insurance." You know what? You don't have to believe in life insurance to own it, but you certainly must believe in it if you're going to sell it. Mark Miletello: Exactly. Well said, and I think back of how I worked with agents and I think one of the most important things that I've tried to instill in my team and those I work with is taking care of the client, helping them find their "why". Like you've said before, you help others get what they want, and you get what you want, and I think that that's one of the most important things is that we help clients figure what their "why" and protect their "why". Why are they buying that life ... They may not believe in that life insurance, but they may believe in what happens if disaster strikes or when disaster strikes because at some point, it's going to happen. Normally, in this part of the show, I talked about professional predictions 10 years down the road. But I'm going to change it up a little bit because you've been on the show before. As a coach and leader, what I'd really like to know is thinking on purpose, how purpose affects me? How it affects my clients? How it affects my agents? How is my purpose going to drive me in the future? How can I best use it because I think, especially as a veteran in the business, we get so busy that we don't stop and set goals and do things a lot of the things that we did when ... The basics of building a business. I think as a veteran, sometimes I tell my agents to set goals and think about their purpose and their "why", but I don't ... In the future, how can we do a better job of focusing on purpose, thinking on purpose to help drive us to be where we want to be in our life and our career? Morris Sims: I think, Mark, many times, we are thinking as I mentioned earlier, we're thinking in response to some stimulation. And for our veterans out there, I know for me at least when I had been doing the job I was doing in New York for 20 years, it kind of got to be old hat. I knew what I was supposed to do. I didn't really have to think about it a whole lot because it was what I do. But every now and again, there would be something that would come along that would cause me to have to stop and really sit down and think through again what it is I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and how I can do it better because until I know why I'm doing it and what it is I want and why I want it, I can't necessarily work at getting better at doing what I do. Example, if I don't know where I'm going, if I'm going to take a trip and I don't know what the destination is, where do I want to go, then geez, it's going to be pretty hard to get there and it's going to be even more difficult to line it out on the map as to how I want to go from here to there. The same thing is true with our work. If we don't know what it is we're trying to achieve and why we're trying to achieve that, then you don't know what to work on to get better. You don't know where those things are that you need to hone, the skills you need to hone, the things you need to practice getting better at, the things that you could be doing but you just hadn't thought of because you've never done it before. You won't go to that level of thinking unless you do it on purpose unless you sit down and take the time. Study groups are so vitally important, I believe, in our industry where three or four or five top producers come together and help each other and guide each other and ask questions of each other. Some of the best business coaches in the world who ask those difficult questions about what is your strategy, how are you improving yourself to be able to carry out that strategy that is, every time you go out in the field to implement it and what do you need to do differently today? And finally, what are you not doing that you ought to be doing? And what are you doing that you ought to stop doing? There are many things that especially after we've been in a business for a long period of time that chances are we probably shouldn't be doing anymore, or if it should be done, it should be done by somebody else. And there are probably things that we need to do more of or things that we don't even know we need to do yet until we say, "I had to really think about it," and spend some time away from the rat race, away from the noise. And in fact, physically even getting away for a day or a weekend and maybe you and your spouse go out for a weekend, and you spend some of that time just talking with each other about what it is that you want for your family and for your life and how can you get there? What can you do differently to accelerate that operation? I still believe that that's some of the most important time that we can spend with our family and with ourselves and our business. Mark Miletello: Well, great advice, and I needed that. I don't know, I just needed that. I need to do a better job of that, and I need to do that from a family standpoint as well. Thank you for that advice. You may not be a professional golfer, Morris, I'm sorry to hear that, but one thing you are is a consummate professional in our industry. And we respect your tips and your recommendations. I'm going to put you on the spot because on the last show, you kind of gave us a couple of places to go and I appreciate that. I've got several books coming in from Amazon, mainly yours a while back but others as well turning me on to some great people to follow. Give us your professional recommendation on who we should maybe think about, read about when it comes to purpose. Morris Sims: There are several authors out there that still mean the most to me on a regular basis. I posted something on LinkedIn not too long ago, and one of the wonderful people who took the time to comment said ... Just two words, he said, "Old school." And I saw that and I laughed and I thought, "Yeah, it is." It's been around for a long time. But I also believed that every generation must learn some of these basics about sales and success all by themselves. They have to learn it on their own because it just doesn't resonate until they discover it until it's an "aha" in their own minds. I can talk until I'm blue in the face but until they have some experience that lights up their brain and lights it up for them and lets them see that, "Oh, yeah. That is important." Knowing exactly what your purpose is and why is important. They've got to have that aha experience. And some of the folks that did that or helped me with that when I was growing up in the business- Mark Miletello: Yeah, give us some old school recommendations. Morris Sims: Folks like Og Mandino. He's got a great story. Read about his life. It's amazing, and then read his books, The Greatest Salesman in the World part 1 and part 2. And Mark, I've got a hard copy of part 1 that he signed. Mark Miletello: Oh, wow. Morris Sims: I'm very proud of that one. But he's got a whole series of books, The Greatest Miracle, The Greatest Salesman, The Greatest ... Everything you can think of, and they all will touch your heart and give you very practical things that you can do to help you in your business. Mark Miletello: I agree. Morris Sims: And the other one is another old school that you and I talked about and chatted about before, Napoleon Hill. Think and Grow Rich, you talk to any business person out there that's been around for a while and then say, "Have you ever read Think and Grow Rich?" They'll say, "Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I read it 10 years ago, five years ago, 20 years ago." But nobody ever asks, "Have you implemented what Napoleon Hill taught you in the book Think and Grow Rich?" Because what we find is that most of us will read a book like that and say, "Yeah, man. That's great. I'm going to do this. I'm going to start my own mastermind group," which is one of the recommendations that he makes. And then we'll think about it. We'll talk to a couple of people about it, and then we get all locked up in the rat race of doing what we do every day and we never implement what we learned. Think and Grow Rich is a great book, a great reference book as well. But I would challenge you to actually take a piece out of there and commit yourself to implementing it in your life and in your business and see that commitment through to the end. Get some support. Get some help, but carry it all the way out, and that's what's going to change your life. Mark Miletello: You said rereading something when it triggers a different time or a different meaning to you and of course, I had a podcast with Tom Hegna, one of the greatest out there, and I mentioned to him that I read this book twice in the past. But after a recent read, it meant something totally and I finally got it. I think sometimes, yes, definitely the Og Mandino, Napoleon Hill books I hope is on every insurance agent's shelf. But I recently reread and unfortunately, a year and a half ago, my father passed away and I wanted his book library. And he's got some old pictures and books with his writing in it. And so, it kind of motivated me to go back and read those very two books again, and they just meant something totally different to me in my career. I appreciate you saying that. I totally agree. Morris Sims: Yeah. I think it is the most important thing that we can do is continue to work on our own development and so many times, our own development means remembering something that we may have thought of long time ago or looking at it with a different point of view. You're absolutely right. Mark Miletello: It may not be old school, right? Morris Sims: It may have been created a long time ago, but it certainly is relevant for today. Mark Miletello: Right. Well, I can't tell you Morris Sims how much I appreciate you being a returning guest on the show Where the Insurance Pros Meet. I want to thank you for your time and your expertise, and how if there are some leaders out there listening to this or agents, I know that we can bring you in to speak and do classes. Are there events? How do we do workshops? How do we get to tutor under you? Where do we follow you? Morris Sims: I say it's probably the website. And again, it's one of the most creative names I could come up with. It's www.morrissims.com. That's Sims with one M, so it's morrissims.com. Mark Miletello: Well, you're one of the greats. We'll definitely find you, but I guess my question I wasn't too specific, what do you offer in terms of maybe teams trying to focus in on what we've discussed? Morris Sims: Oh, thanks. Several workshops that we do, the Three Steps to Accelerate Your Success Now having to do with being real clear on your purpose, creating an action plan and creating a support system that will be there for you and that will never fail. That's a half day workshop that can be made to accommodate whatever venue and need an agency might have, or a company might have. That is, for sure, one. I have another workshop on influence, of course, that we do as well that's backed up by the book, Practical Influence. And then we do some customized work for folks who say, "Gee, Morris, in my agency we're really having a problem with X, Y, Z." And together then, we can craft some training opportunities that will help those agents get better at X, Y, Z, whatever that may happen to be. And, I think the hallmark of any of the training that I'm fortunate and blessed enough to be able to do has two things going on with it, Mark. One is it doesn't happen unless there are practical things that the agent walks away with that can help them change their behavior in their business that day. I believe very strongly that we don't do training for training's sake. We do training to change our behavior and help us get better at what we do all day long. It's got to be practical. That's the most important thing that comes to it as far as I'm concerned. And the second thing that is there is the follow-up. How many times, Mark, have you been to a seminar or workshop, and you get this really nice binder and all sorts of stuff in it. You brought it back to your office, you put it on the shelf and it's still sitting there today and hadn't moved. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Morris Sims: I know I have a thousand times. Follow-up is so very important for us as human beings because we do get back in that rat race. With the workshops that we do, there's always an opportunity for follow-up webinars or phone calls or individual coaching that can be done to help agents and managers improve and implement the things that they need to implement in order to get better. Mark Miletello: Well, wonderful, Morris. I appreciate it, and I love the fact that you and I are alike in the fact that I want people changed. I want something changed today. I don't want to pump you up and get you motivated and send you out the door. I want something positive to happen. And that's the type of professional you are and that everything you do. Even in your book, I noticed at the end of each chapter, there's an action plan. Thank you again for being a guest on the show. And hopefully, we'll have you again in the future, and I look forward to getting to know you and following you as well. If you like what you hear on the show, go to iTunes. Rate and review it. It will help others find us, and you can follow me, Mark Miletello at, of course, markmiletello.com. Thank you for being a guest on Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Morris, and we'll see you soon. Morris Sims: Thanks, Mark. I really appreciate the opportunity. Have a great week.

Garry Kinder is back on the show to talk about the common denominator of success. He shares his key industry insights and talks about why you must set and measure goals. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where The Insurance Pros Meet, episode eight. Mark Miletello: Goals are set to be met. Speaker 1: Where The Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where The Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to the show. We're glad you joined us. I'm your host, Mark Miletello. Today we have a repeat guest on the show, one of the industry's greatest mentors, coaches, producers. I guess you've been in this industry for six decades now, five to six decades, but a true icon. Mark Miletello: How long has it been? Garry Kinder: Well, I came into this business in 1953 when I was a junior in college. I was at a university where you could get a degree in insurance, and I did that. My bother encouraged me to start selling life insurance when I a junior in college, so that's '53 to 2017. Mark Miletello: Well, that qualifies for six decades, 64 years. Congratulations and welcome back to the show, my mentor and one of my just ... personal friends Garry Kinder, welcome. Garry Kinder: Glad to be back. Mark Miletello: Well Garry, thanks for taking the time to join us. Last show, it was just one of the most exciting times for me to have someone that means so much to me... share. And really what I wanted to do on the last show was dive in and get to know you, and get to know you as a person. It was more about, I think, learning and walking through your life. But one thing that we did touch on a whole lot that I'm glad that you decided to come back, and I hoped that you would, is I really wanted to get in and talk about the things that you do so well, which is mentoring, coaching and teaching. And let's talk about the success and how to be successful of agents. Is that okay with you? Garry Kinder: Sure, sure. Mark Miletello: Garry Garry Kinder: You can ask the questions. Mark Miletello: Go ahead. Garry Kinder: No, you can ask the questions. Mark Miletello: Well, I think one of the first messages that I've read coming into this industry, and I believe maybe even you shared it with me. There's an old speech by Albert E. N. Gray, it's called, The Common Denominator or Success. I think anyone in this business should have, or maybe even knows about that, and really you can probably research it, find it. I think everyone should read it when they enter this business. But the crux of that speech he gave back, I guess ... I think it was, what, 50, 60, 70 years ago? It was a long time. Garry Kinder: Sure. Mark Miletello: The idea was that successful people form the habits of doing things that failures won't do, right? Garry Kinder: That's right. Successful people form the habits ... I'm giving you the exact words that he used. Successful people form the habits of doing the things that failing people don't like to do. This could've been given to students in college. It could've been given to athletes. For an example, students in college, what is a failing student in college, what is it they don't like to do? Mark Miletello: Study, go to class. Garry Kinder: They don't like to study. Go to class and study, that's right. And the ones that are going to class and studying, they don't like it either. But they do it because they have the discipline to do what they ought to do. Now you take athletes ... I've played athletics in high school and college and I've played with some pretty dad gone good people, but they never made it. They never got past the first practice because they were not willing to do the things that failing people don't like to do. And failing athletes don't like to practice. Who in the world would like to practice? They want to play. They just want to go play, but you got to practice. So, the common denominator of success is doing things that failing people don't like to do. Mark Miletello: Well, you've been in this- Garry Kinder: That's true in our business. Mark Miletello: Yeah. I mean you've been in this industry now for six decades, which congratulations. And can't tell you what you mean to this industry and you mean to us out here in the field. And obviously, you've been around a lot of people that have been both successes and failures. So, what is your interpretation of that? In your opinion, what are some of the things in our industry that successful people form the habits of doing? Garry Kinder: Okay, so in our industry the things that the people. First, most people do not like what I'm going to say, I mean that people do. Most people do not like to make phone calls after phone calls after phone calls to referred leads, to friends, to people they're associated with in religion or studying, or whatever. But they don't like to do the things that failing people don't like to do either, and that is they don't like to make phone calls. But the great ones discipline themselves to make calls every week, every day. Now some people turn it over to one or two days a week, and that okay, but the successful ones make the phone calls. They don't like it, but they do it. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Same thing to do with the loser. The loser doesn't like doing it, so it doesn't do it. Mark Miletello: Yeah, I'll tell you ... Well, number one is just making the calls because we know this is a numbers game. It always has been, and it always will be, getting in front of enough people. I think there's a lot of things that go into that but when you're coaching ... and I look back at the times where you've coached me. When you're coaching, what are some of the first things that you focus on in trying to launch an agent to have a successful career in the very beginning? Garry Kinder: Number one, you must memorize scripts, and there again, a lot of people don't want to memorize scripts. I've had people come to me, Mark, and I can' tell you the number of people that have come to me over the years and said, "I don't like ... the script doesn't sound like me." And I said to them, "Well, that's good." And they said, "What do you mean." I said, "What I mean is, if it sounded like you, it wouldn't work." You got to memorize these scripts. Then, the second thing in my opinion, most important ... these are the two most important things that people in our industry need to do, is have good scripts memorized. They sound like you. They're natural as can be, that's number one. Number two is keeping good records. And I'm telling you there's a lot of people in our industry that don't like to keep records. We're watching the World Series right now, do those people keep track of their batting average? Why they calculate it when they hit first ... If they get a single to the right field, when they hit first base, they recalculate what their batting average is up to. Mark Miletello: What their worth is? Garry Kinder: That's right. Mark Miletello: I mean the difference in the worth of a professional athlete can be one minor percentage of their ... Yeah, especially major league baseball, it's once a week the stats come out, all the stats. Yet we start a business and we don't even write down our simple goals, so I think you're right. I knew you were going to say that because that's one of the things you had me do when you mentored me back in the year 2000. You had me keep the stats and you said, "You can't monitor what you don't measure." And so, I started measuring and monitoring those numbers, and those numbers just kept increasing and increasing, and my stats grew better and better. Especially, in professional athletes, that's what they're paid for those stats, right? Garry Kinder: Sure. And that's what we must do. You've used our planning procedure, where you put down what you're going to do every year and then break it down into months and then break it down into weeks and then break it down into days. You want to keep good records. You want to have good scripts. You want to have good records. You want to study. A lot of things you must just discipline yourself to do that the unsuccessful people don't want to do. Mark Miletello: Well, I'll tell you, I'm coming from now, Garry, the management side of things. As you know, most of my career I was an agent. I find it hard when ... and you say when you're recruiting as a manager, you either hired them wrong or trained them wrong, it's all your fault. I agree with that, but sometimes it's hard. I find when it comes to measuring and monitoring, I there's a fine line between an agent wanting to do that for themselves, and a manager demanding those type of activities. Do you find that you being in a management position that ... Is it the agent's job, or is it the manager's job, is the question? Garry Kinder: Well, it's a little bit of both. But Mike, I've had people come to me ... I remember one when I was starting my management career in Bloomington, Illinois. I started in the business in '53, and I started in the management in '57, '58. And I'll never forget it, a young man in Bloomington, he came to me and said, "I don't like to keep records." This was in the recruiting process, "I don't like to keep records and I don't like to memorize scripts." I said, "Well then you don't need to join this organization." At the time I was representing Equitable, which is now a different company, but I still have a license with them. But this young man, he said, "Well, I went down, and interviewed Prudential and they said that I didn't have to do that." I said, "Well then, you need to go down there. If that's what you want, go ahead. Because here you are going to memorize the scripts. You are going to keep score." Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: But if the manager in the first place in the has to tell these people, "These are the things that you're going to need to do the first few years. You're just going to have to follow some of the things that I tell you to do. We'll write them out and we'll have to do because I cannot take any part of your success if you won't follow exactly what I'm telling you to do." So, I believe that it's more of the management than it is the agent. Because if you get the right agents and you don't train them right, you're still going to have a problem. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: So, you got to recruit the right people, you know that, in the first place. But then once you recruit them you must keep ... have them memorize the scripts, keep the records, make the phone calls, get the referred leads. They got to do all that stuff and if they aren't willing, we need to part company. But hopefully, you part company in the interviewing process. But it's the manager, in my opinion, Mark, whether you [inaudible 00:13:13]. You hire some people, and you've heard me say this before, and that is that 10% of the people that you recruit, you really don't have to tell them a whole lot. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Because they follow everything you say, 10%. 30%, you picked the wrong person, you've got to get rid of them within 30 days, or hopefully in today's world, in pre-contract. You don't want them getting started with you just because you need an agent. So, 10%, they'll run away from you. But then you will make, we say, usually about 20% of the people you recruit over a 5, 10-year period, you're going to make a mistake. You just plain made a mistake, and you need to take care of that quickly. The ones that stick and stay ... So that's 10%, they'll run away from you. 20% 30%, you picked the wrong person, so the rest of those people you'd have to give them scripts. You'd have to meet with them regularly and go over their past seven days. And then, what do you got going for the next seven days? And I believe in people can work ... in the beginning, I don't want them working seven days a week, but I'd like to have them work six days a week. And I'm certainly going to have them work five days a week and put in a lot of hours. So, their leader's the key. Mark Miletello: Well, I think I agree, and I guess it did bring me back to the training that you gave that you'd said in the beginning, "It's really the manager that ... " And if look back over the agents who had success under me, those agents actually did do the things that I asked, and they did right away. And little by little they began to fly, so to speak. Then, I would say, three to four of my best agents are now mentors of mine. That's how it works, right? You become mentors to each other and that's the goal. But I think you're right that looking back, it was the agents that said, "Okay Mark, I'm going to trust you until I find a reason not to. I'm going to listen. I'm going to say the things that you say I'm going to do." In fact, the two of my best agents did that to a tee. They followed everything that I said until they slowly started finding their own voice and all that. Garry Kinder: Well, early in the ballgame in management I met a college graduate that was engaged to marry my youngest daughter, Carol, and his name is Kurt Ladd, and he wanted to come into this business. I said, "I'll bring you into this business if you will do everything I tell you for the first two years if you'll do everything I tell you." And brother, he did it. If I told him to memorize these scripts, he memorized them. If I told him to keep records, he kept the records. His early years, he moved to MDRT, he was a young kid, 23, 24 years old, and his qualifying for the million-dollar roundtable. He's a money motivated guy. He's really good, servicing clients. But he also, he keeps a lot of good business rolling and having good clients. He keeps his business rolling. He was in here early, in my office this morning, it was 11:00 in Dallas now, and he was here about 8:30, 9:00, he came in and asked me two or three questions. Here's a guy that's been in the business now getting close to 30 years. Mark Miletello: Right. I go back to that Albert E. N. Gray, The Common Denominator of Success, I mean a couple of things pop out to me in addition to memorizing scripts and keeping good records. But one is work ethic, and I think there's no substitution for that. Too many times in this business it'd be easy to say, "It's 3:00 or 4:00, I'm done. I'll just put it off." It's easy to put off tomorrow, what we can do today. So, I think that's one that I'll add to the number there is work ethic. I remember when I started was my goal is ... first, I didn't know a thing. I didn't know a thing. I was new to the industry, new to the business, and one thing that I could control, Garry, was my work ethic. That's the only thing that I could control. I said, "I'm going to beat my manager to the office every day. In fact, I'm going to be the first ... " I don't think I knew what that meant back then, so it was strange that I decided to do that. But later, looking back, I realized that, that put me in a position for things to happen when I ... First, a CPA that passed away, one of my favorite and best friends, and was CPA, he passed away. He said, "Mark, very few people do this. First, you've got to show up, number one, and then you got to do what you say you're going to do." That meant a lot to me because when you show up things happen, right? So, I think work ethic is the thing that failures don't like to do. Garry Kinder: That's right. There was a fellow that I spent a lot of time with. He was a doctorate in college, teaching in college with a doctorate degree and it was in Atlanta. He was on the insurance side of the college where he was teaching, and I got to know him very well. He always said what you just said. He said, "Show up. Show up on time. Show up ready to play. Show up. Show up on time. Shop up dressed, ready to play, and show up ready to go." He said, "And you'll beat 90% of the people if you show up. Show up on time. Show up dressed, ready to play." So that's what you said. That's pretty much what you- Mark Miletello: That's right. I think like you said, it goes both ways. It's the manager's job to set the path, to set the scripts, to set the training, so help keep a good record. And to some degree, you can hold them accountable. I mean most of this business, we're looking for entrepreneurs, right? We're looking for the contracted entrepreneurial-minded individuals. So, I think really, that goes back to us as agents, is we must show up. We must show up ready to play. And to me, like I said, is that I could control my work ethic ... You and I talked about it on the last show, activity. That's the only thing I felt that I could control, and that came from the work ethic, right? I mean the activity didn't come from the thin air, it came from the work ethic put behind that. I remember my manager, first, I beat him in the office at least for the first year, and then I probably got lazy after that, I'm sure of that. But also, I would turn in a weekly report and you had me do this. My manager said that I built my own weekly report and I turned it in every week. I told him what I did wrong that week. I told him what I did right that week. And I told him next week what I was going to accomplish, and he told me I didn't have to do that. I said, "Well, I need to be accountable to someone and I will let myself down, but if I say and tell you, Garry, I'll do something I'll do everything I can to make sure that happens. I don't want to let you down, right?" So that really helped me in my work ethic, is to be accountable to someone. Garry Kinder: That's true, it's true. My brother and I, we had the first person ever inducted into the Gamma Hall of Fame, was our manager. He was the first person inducted. His name was Fred Holderman. Jack was in Mount Vernon, Illinois. I was in Bloomington, Illinois. He had an actual page that we went sent him every week, and it better be there Monday morning on what we did last week and what we got going next week. We had to do that, and he was dead on it. I mean if you missed a week he would call you up and let you know, "If you're going to do that, get out of here." He was tough. Mark Miletello: Well, I think we need to get back to that in leadership roles. And as agents, we should want to do that. Out of all the agents that I've mentored and coached, there's one agent out of all of them that I told this story too. And I told him what I did, and I told him how it helped me. And how you mentored me to great success. Still to this day, Garry, and I don't require that. As after this call, I'll probably go back to requiring that, but I asked that if you want to achieve greatness, here's what you do. And I've only had one agent in the last nine years, for the first year of this career, send me a weekly report. And as you're a dynamic growing team it's easy for someone to fly under the radar. And most people want to fly under the radar, but he didn't. Garry Kinder: Sure. Mark Miletello: If I get a report every week that says, here's ... What I was able to do in that weekly report, Garry is I was able to ... He wasn't flying under the radar. I looked at just those comments that he made, and I said, "I can help this guy." And I'd pick up the phone and we would talk about those things. I remember one , he said, "A client said not because of this, this, and this." And I said, "Would you mind getting that client on the phone?" He goes, "Yeah, but he said no." It was literally over $7 a month, this client, and I don't remember the whole story. But at the end of the conversation, the clients go, "I didn't know all that. I didn't realize that. I'd love to do business with this particular agent." So those weekly reports, that's on the agent as well. I think the agent must want to, or need to, be accountable to someone. And you helped me do that more than anyone in my career. I guess I was so very fortunate early on to have someone like you coaching me to do those things. That now I realize are the principle of The Common Denominator of Success. Garry Kinder: That really is true. I sent you a copy of this, right? Mark Miletello: Yes sir. Garry Kinder: Common Denominator, and anybody that's listening to us, did you sent them a copy of this, or are you going to? Mark Miletello: Well, this show is going to be on MarkMiletello.com. It's going to be on the new Vanmark.life, Van Mueller, and myself partnership. Garry Kinder: Oh good. Mark Miletello: And it will be linking everyone back to Kinder Brothers website where they can follow you, purchase your books. I just did not know if this article that you sent me was copyrighted or not, or how it could be used. Garry Kinder: It can be used because nobody owns this anymore. The guy that wrote it, as you know was, Albert E. N. Gray, who was a Vice President of Prudential, but now it's available to anybody. The company that does a lot of training in our industry, they have- Mark Miletello: NAFA? Garry Kinder: Yeah, NAFA. They have this available. Of course, Kinder Brothers has it available, so it's lived out its time. Mark Miletello: Okay, good. Garry Kinder: Yeah, there's a word for it, I can't come up with it right now. But there is a word that's. Mark Miletello: Statute of limitations. Garry Kinder: Yeah, there you go. Mark Miletello: Something like that. But no, if I have you’re okay, then I'm sure that's good enough, and we will make it available. I've kept that in my file, probably one of the oldest and longest running articles, that no matter how many computers I've had over 20 years, I've kept this article, and I've gone back and read it from time to time. So, we will share that. Garry Kinder: That's good, because of people like you, and I have three or four or five others, that are throughout the industry and they read this every year. Every year they start the year by reading this Commons Denominators to Success. It won't go away. I won't change. It's just something that people ought to pay attention to, like some books that you want to read repeatedly. It only takes about 15, 20 minutes to read this. Mark Miletello: Well, you had mentioned making phone calls and memorizing scripts, keeping good records, of course. And I had mentioned work ethic. I think the last thing that pops out to me as one of the things that successful people do, no doubt, and I think now being on the management side of things I see it more than I did previously on the production side of the business, is continuing education, evolving our knowledge, acquiring designations. What do you say to those out there that have been in this business for 3, 5, 10 years, and how does it affect them not moving toward, let's say designations and things like that? And do you agree with me that, that is one of those things that successful people do? Garry Kinder: Oh yeah. Successful people, there you go again, do the things failing people don't like to do. And one of the things that successful people do in our industry is to read good materials. And to read things like The Common Denominators of Success. Reading a good book. At Kinder Brothers, we have 11 books and five or six of them are for management, and five or six of them are for agents. But everybody needs to read books. Everybody needs to study, and they need to read good books. Mark Miletello: Well, I think I would, over the last few years, I've been working on building a training platform at Vanmark.life. I've been working on building duplicated ... Say's, duplicatable systems of training video's, things like that. I myself have been so busy building that I have backed away from furthering my own education and growth. And since this podcast has started and I've been interviewing the greatest A-list talent that our industry has to offer, people like yourself, and Van Miller, and Tom Hegna, and on and on and on. I've kind of been forced to read their book before I have them on the show. And I've got a lot of great talent lined up that I'm in the process of reading four books at one time. I don't know, it's like re-energizing me, Garry. It's reshaping the way I think and feel. I don't know, I think sometimes we forget that we forget what you just said. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Well, it's an old cliché, but readers are leaders, and leaders are readers. There's no question about it. I have met very, very few people in my career that are outstanding that don't come back and say, "I read this book. Have you read this book? Have you read this book?" They're people that are reading books all the time. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: And then there are books marked that should be read every year. And this little Common Denominator of Success should be read by everybody at least once a year. And when you do that, like I read this, this week ... When you read this you say to yourself, "You know what? I forgot that and I'm glad I'm reading that. I forgot that." So, there are certain things, like the book, Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, should be read every year, by everybody that's listening to us. Mark Miletello: Well, let's talk about your books, Garry. I mean you've written 11 books. Last show we talked about The Professional Sales Process. We talked about for managers, Building the Master Agency. I think you've probably written more books in this industry than anyone that I know of, and, the most popular and most read books. What do you suggest ... obviously Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, Albert E. N. Gray's, The Common Denominator to Success? What I've given our listeners on our website is, I list a, My Library, which is about 30 to 40 books. I think a lot of agents out there, Garry, especially agents that aren't plugged into maybe a company that promotes or they're not connected to an industry organization, there's a lot of those out there. So, I think sometimes they don't know where to go. They don't know where to start. They just read a book here and there because they come across it. One of my missions has been, Garry, is to provide a list of some of the greatest books. So, everyone that I have on this show, either on the air or off the air, I try to get a list of their three to five greatest books that they've read. And so, it's growing my library, but when Tom Hegna or Garry Kinder tells me that I should read this book, I think it's important that I should read it. So Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, your books, The Professional Sales, are there any other designations, if you will, or books that we should definitely shoot to acquire? Garry Kinder: Well, let me be a little bit in giving you information about one of our last books that I wrote, and I dedicated it to my brother, Jack, when he had his stroke, but it's, 50 Lessons in 50 Years. I got people in there that I've known over the years, but it's 50 lessons and where did I get my lessons? Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: 50 Lessons in 50 Years. So that's a book that I would recommend to people. Now there are other books, like Hegna, I like his books. I like people that are making the million-dollar roundtable. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: People that are producing at a high level and they've written some good books for us to read. Mark Miletello: Yeah, they're not just talking about it, they're doing it. Garry Kinder: That's right. That's right. Mark Miletello: Well Garry, thank you for the time on this show. We'll wrap up here. I want to ask you this, do you ever plan on retiring? Garry Kinder: No, I don't, if I'm healthy. It seems like I talk to somebody about that, what seems like every day, but I know it's not every day. But I've talked to two people about ... they've asked me if I want to retire? I'm like, "I'm not retiring." If I have good health and as long as I'm excited about what I'm doing I'm just going to keep on working. That's one of the great things about our business, and that is some people get out to 45, 50, 55, and retire, and that's okay. I'm okay with that. I say God bless them, they've had a good career. But then there are others that I ... and you named a couple of them here today, but there are some other people ... The great thing about our industry is you can continue to produce and continue to be part of the industry and never bother anybody in the industry. But work with clients that love to have you work with them. Mark Miletello: Well, I think whenever we go back to talking about The Common Denominator of Success, I think one thing that I've gained from associating with our industries greats, is that when you have a career that is rewarding as yours has been, I think it's no longer work. It's work for those that are struggling, that are not doing the things that successful people do, it's work. And you can't wait to retire. You can't wait for something bigger and better. But it seems to me, and I knew what your answer was before I ask, and I just wanted to hear it from you. You love this business, it shows. You love this career. And its just part of who you are, Garry, and we know that, the people that know you, and the people that have followed you. It's part of who you are, isn't it? Garry Kinder: Yeah, it really is. I would say one last thing in this regard because many times I've said to people ... As you know I'm a bible student, and I read the bible. I teach the bible. But I tell people, "I can't find any place in that bible that talks about retirement, not one place." It talks about doing this. It talks about doing that, talks about this. So, I'm for people that want to retire. Mark, a lot of people in our industry that retire, they go do something else. Charity, I could name you the name of the people that have retired and have taken on charity. Do work for a charity they can contribute to. Mark Miletello: It's just highly active people in this industry, right? It takes that ... maybe nervous energy in the beginning, but high energy throughout your career, right? Garry Kinder: Yeah, it's true. It's true. I hit my office virtually every day somewhere between 7:30 and 8:00. Mark Miletello: And that's after working out and running. So, Garry, you are amazing. If there's something, and I know because I know the fellow you are and the friendship that we have, that we're going to have you back on the show in the future as this show gets up and running and the following starts. But if in fact, this was your last interview with me, your last show with me, is there something that you would like to tell the agents out there, the agents that are listening to this? Garry Kinder: Well, I would say that no matter what your position is, whether it's management, whether it's an agent, whatever you're producing, you ought to have goals. And you need to have goals for the year, and then you have goals for the week. Now, you can do it your way, I'm talking to the people that are listening. But you can do it your way, but you ought to have a goal for the year, January through December, a goal. And then have a goal for every week. This is my goal for next week. This is what I got to get done. Then you measure that, and you keep track of that every week. But then you put it into some type of notebook so that at the end of the year you can look at it and see ... Now, let's see, here's what I did every week. Here's where I took a vacation. Here's where I didn't do very well. But here's what I did get done, and I did reach my annual goal. Goals are set to be met. Goals are set to be met. So, you want to have goals that can make you stretch but you can reach them. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Because you want to make them right. Mark Miletello: Well, once again, you've come back to accountability. So, I agree to the importance of accountability, whether it be goal setting, tracking, measuring, monitoring, I think that's the basis. That's the foundation of a successful agent. That's the foundation of everything that you've taught me. So, Garry, I want to tell you again, thank you for being a return guest on the show. Thank you for the information that you've shared and allowing us to get some insight from you. I would encourage everyone that's listening to this to go to the Kinder Brother ... you can Google Garry, G-A-R-R-Y Kinder. You can come to my site MarkMiletello.com or Vanmark.life, V-A-N-M-A-R-K.life. And of course, you will be able to find the link. You'll find out how to reach ... I will make it available how to access everything that Garry Kinder has out there. So, I just got to tell you how much you mean to me and my career. And it's an honor and a privilege to have you on the show yet again, Garry. Thank you. Garry Kinder: It's my pleasure, and trust this is helpful to the people. If they'll call me, write me, I'll tell them the kind of books they ought to get that is from Kinder Brothers and what other kinds we have that we recommend from other sources. Mark Miletello: You have a great organization there and I've spoken to many people in your organization. So, hey, if you like what you hear on this show, please go to iTunes and rate us. Rate and review, so that others can find it. Once again, thank you Garry, and thank you for the followers and listeners out there. Garry Kinder: Glad to do it.

How to give yourself a competitive edge, build your brand and bring in business through speaking. Deirdre Van Nest shares top speaking tips to win customers. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, episode seven. Deirdre Van Nest: Every time you speak you have the opportunity to attract people to you, to build up your brand, to bring in business, or the opposite. Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now here's Mark Miletello, a top one percent producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome back to the show. Today is an exciting day, I promised myself and the listeners that when I started this show, in my opinion the best, the greatest platform for really investment reps or insurance agents of Where the Insurance Pros Meet anyone that's in the financial services industry that I would search out and even have brand new agents, veteran agents, top speakers, top thinkers and minds in the industry, so today we have a very, very special guest. We have someone and let me give you a little background before I give you all the goods. As you may or may not know I'm speaking in Lamp in 2018 for Gamma as a multiple line speaker and I fly in to Chicago and right before I'm going into my rehearsal where they do provide a professional speech coach I'm fortunate enough to sit next to the next speaker that arrived a little bit early and just so happens she is a professional speech coach. To me that was very lucky to build a quick friendship the few minutes we had together I knew this individual was special, I knew that she was on it and I invited her to critique and to come in and watch me, which they didn't really allow but I forced it. I want to welcome a very special guest to the show that in a few short minutes I just really felt could really help our industry in a way, welcome Deirdre Van Nest to the show. Deirdre Van Nest: Aw thank you, Mark. Mark Miletello: Deirdre you're the creator of Crazy Good Talks the Blueprint, a system that teaches financial and insurance professionals how to become crazy good speakers so that they can bring in business and build their brands using speaking. I mean I didn't really know what all that meant until I met you and within a few short minutes, you're molding me into something that's doing a lot better job at what I'm attempting to do. Welcome to the show, I'm excited to have you and what you do for our listeners here. Deirdre Van Nest: I'm excited to be here and it's been a pleasure to help you. You are a quick student. Mark Miletello: What does that mean? Are there some that are not? Deirdre Van Nest: Some are not, yeah. Yes, you are. Mark Miletello: Well thank you and like I said I just realized you're very special. Can you tell me a little bit about ... tell the listener a little bit about your background and maybe they'll get a sense for maybe what I've found in you? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah you know what I first loved to do is talk for a moment about why I care about helping the industry, particularly when it comes to speaking. I firmly believe that every person, and then this is regardless of what you do for a living, but every person unless we develop a skill set of becoming a compelling speaker, the type of speaker Mark who can get other people to sit up and listen and act we will never truly reach our full potential. I'll never forget, I used to be in a networking group where ... you know those networking groups where you have to a 60 or 30 second commercial every week? Mark Miletello: Yep. Deirdre Van Nest: Ever been a part? Okay. I was in this networking group and every week I was with the same people and people would get up and they'd speak for 60 seconds and there were certain people where as soon as that person stood up everybody tuned out and it really hurt my heart, it really bothered me, because as I got to know these people I thought, well you know that person's really good at what they do and that person really cares about the people in room, but they're not conveying who they are and what they do in a way that gets other people to sit up and listen and want to take action. It didn't matter if they were an A-plus attorney or an A-plus financial adviser or A plus this or that if they're a B minus or C plus speakers it was hurting their career. Does that make sense? Mark Miletello: No absolutely and I think I'm learning more about you every time we meet and talk, but I guess what you do helps ... I mean you even said attorneys, I guess attorneys do a lot of public speaking in the courtroom and things like that. How do you help ... I mean what industries do you find yourself helping most and how did you end up really relating and now that you're a speaker at Lamp of course in front of every general manager, general agent across all boards of financial services and insurance. I mean how did you really connect with our industry? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah that's a great question so there's a couple of touch points. When I first hung my shingle out in 2008 I just started speaking everywhere I could and the professionals that raised their hands the most saying, "Hey, we're interested in you. We want what you're doing, we want you're helping. We're financial and insurance professionals." In one sense I fell into these industries, these professions, but it's interesting Mark as I've dug deeper I've really developed a love for this industry, for these professions, and for the people in it. As I sat back, and I started thinking okay I know I feel like I've sort of fell into this, but why do I stay here and why do I love it, and why do I feel a passion around it and why is that pretty much the sole focus of anything I do from an outbound perspective? It circled back to this, and you know this you heard my story about when I was 10 years old my mom was killed in a car accident and Mark I literally was kissing her goodbye one moment for what I thought was the night and within four minutes she was gone. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: My dad was in the car too, we were really blessed that he didn't die, it was touch and go with him and he was out of work for several months and it took him about a year to recover from all his injuries. What that did for me was I lost my innocence in the sense that I realized from that experience and I realized early in that life can change in a snap. As I got older I became a very strong advocate for proper financial planning. Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: I was the person at 30 who got pregnant with my first child and instead of running off to the fun little store to pick out outfits and furniture I'm dragging my husband to our adviser and making sure we have enough life insurance, I'm dragging him to our attorney making sure all the guardianship and beneficiary stuff is taken care of. Most people don't think like that and I didn't realize that until I started talking to my friends about it. They're like, "That wouldn't have crossed my mind." Mark Miletello: Yeah. Well, thank you for- Deirdre Van Nest: And I was like, "It doesn't?" Mark Miletello: Thank you for sharing your personal story with the listeners and I know that's tough, but I see now that you have a passion for what our products do and with your expertise- Deirdre Van Nest: Yes, I do. Mark Miletello: With you being the guru, you are the foremost thinker of how to speak and a teacher in that realm I mean I do see that passion come out and so I'm excited that you're connected. I'm sorry that that happened of course, but I'm excited that you're connected with our industry and it kind of leads me to another question that kind of left me thinking after meeting you is if I'm not giving a speech, a public speech on stage, would I really need someone like Deirdre Van Nest to coach me and help me and I think the answer yes and I think you've kind of ... I was able to listen, I wanted to sit through your whole rehearsal and I wasn't able to do that because of my flight, but I did catch one little, and I'm going to try to squeeze that out of you for our listeners, one little tip that you were giving maybe a couple tips, but I do think that there's some validity to increasing your ability speak, finding your voice can help you even if you're not giving a stage public speaking event. Correct? Deirdre Van Nest: Absolutely. This is where I feel like I'm hoping the profession will veer towards and start changing is that you speak at seminars, right? That's kind of what everyone thinks right now in the industry is, "Oh speaking is seminars," and I would like to broaden the perspective and offer that speaking is anytime you're in public. That means outside of your own home opening your mouth and talking to let's say two, three, or more people. Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: Because every time you speak you have the opportunity to attract people to you, to build up your brand, to bring in business or the opposite, to push people away or just have them be neutral to you. We are in what I believe the communication age, there are so many people vying to be heard and so to have a skill set where you can cut through that and you can be compelling and inspire I don't think that skill to have, I believe it's a critical practice development tool. Mark Miletello: Well that's exactly where I was going with it, is that's what I left feeling is that ... and you just hit the nail on the head as you would and should. Every time you're speaking to two or more or even to one person, but two or more people especially that's a speaking engagement that you should be on your game. I'm excited to kind of dive more into this. As you may or may not know Deidre this show I kind of connect it to the professional athlete and if you recall in the rehearsal one fellow said, "People in our industry earn professional athlete type incomes." Deirdre Van Nest: Yes. Mark Miletello: But my concern in a leadership role is that we don't practice like professional athletes, you know. We go out and do our hobbies, we golf and fish and whatever, play sports and we have our hobbies but we don't look at our own profession. That's a lot of the drive behind Where the Insurance Pros Meet is to have something where you can ride down the road and you can listen to, but it reminds you from the greats as well as you telling us is how you become better is practice, it's learning, it's continually developing and so to me what was kind of neat about meeting you is it reminded me I've never really put any work ... I've never been involved in Dale Carnegie courses or another speaking so it's kind of neat to connect our listeners to someone like you that I think could really help them because you had a lot of good tips before I left early to catch my flight, you had a lot of good tips and one of them that I thought was very interesting is how you can plug yourself into speaking gigs or arrangements or connections or networks. Would it be too much to ask you how or to tell us how to do that if maybe we don't have anything on the agenda for a speaking? Deirdre Van Nest: No, I think that's great. I think what you're alluding to is I made this comment that speaking is not just for seminars. Right? The broad vision is that anytime you're speaking, like we just said, to two, three, or more people you're speaking, you're public speaking. Then the other strategy I offered up as if you're having seminars and they're successful great, keep doing that, but I would also invite you to recognize that there are places in your community where you could get booked at other people’s events in front other people's audiences, and what's beautiful about that Mark is that most people in this profession complain about seminars and rightly so because they're expensive to put on in terms of all the mailing and the postage that goes into it. Then there's the meal, maybe the chicken lit dinner, the steak dinner, whatever it is, and then there's the whole stress about getting people there. It's not an easy thing to pull off and what if you could eliminate that by speaking to a ready-made audience? Mark Miletello: Coattails. Deirdre Van Nest: That's something that professional speakers like me, right professional speakers like me we know, we do this all day long, but that's something the more I bring this up to different financial advisers and insurance agents they're like, "I never really thought I could play in that arena," and you can. Mark Miletello: Okay. Deirdre Van Nest: I just want to even put that idea out there is that you can play in that arena. Mark Miletello: Okay give us one idea. Deirdre Van Nest: Let me give you an example. Mark Miletello: Thank you. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah so one client, and I think I might have mentioned this to you, I was thinking of client of mine who is an insurance agent, he and his family own their own independent company and he has the specialization of working with daycare providers. We're like okay, well let's just build a presentation for that group and then let's pitch it and market it to them. We have this presentation, now quite frankly that presentation isn't largely different than it would be for any other business owner, but you put the word daycare provider in there when he tells stories he talks about his other clients that are daycare providers. Right? So that you're customizing the words and the language and then you start to think about where do the daycare providers hang out? Let's check out their association. Right? Then you would go, and you would apply to speak at one of their association events. If there are local chapters that they belong to you would talk about having them bring you in. I know that he got brought into a daycare center not necessarily to talk to the owners because there's only one owner, but the different staff that works there. Right? Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: If you pick a couple of niche markets, maybe you work with chiropractors, maybe you like vets, maybe you like dentists. Mark Miletello: Whatever your niche is. I get it. Deirdre Van Nest: Exactly. Whatever your niche is. Mark Miletello: I tell you coming home and on the flight, that's probably what stuck with me the most of what a great concept that was and I had to have it on our show because in a leadership role I've gone with my agents and we've spoken at realtor meetings and we do certain break out speeches that are kind of impromptu but I kind of thought what about looking at what our niche is. Let's just say our niche is farmers or chiropractors. Let's just say it's farmers, then I never thought of taking and going to their organization ... I've thought about going to their organization and trying to connect and relate and be in the backroom and shake hands but I never thought about trying to get on their agenda because I know when you put on a meeting number one you have people coming in that throw a little money at you to take up 10 to 15 minutes of a sponsored lunch, things like that, and also sometimes you just want good information for the speech and I just never thought of that and I think that listeners hopefully could have a light bulb go off like I did and say there's so many niches that you could go after based on whatever company or organization you represent and you don't have to ... because I've thought about doing seminars and at one time did them, but thought about them over the last few years but when I start putting together the time, the effort, the pieces, the invitations, the mail outs, whatever all those things I find a lot of times that was a fleeting thought that fades away very quickly. Deirdre Van Nest: Yes, I understand that. Mark Miletello: When someone else is doing all that and you're plugging yourself into that I thought that was just a brilliant concept, Deirdre. Deirdre Van Nest: Good, good. Go after it. Here's the thing if you decide to go after it, with the putting together of your own seminar the easy thing is deciding you're going to do it and then all the work comes into doing it. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: With going after other ones your job is going to be reaching out to enough people. Right? And staying after them and following up with that. That's where the work will be is in staying persistent. Mark Miletello: Well you know- Deirdre Van Nest: And following up with them. Mark Miletello: We took off a fast start, we gave the listeners I think what I really, I walked away after just a few minutes of knowing you with that valuable thought. We kind of jumped right forward without really asking you, how did you get involved in coaching with Crazy Good Talks which is a name I love, crazygoodtalks.com. Deirdre Van Nest: Thank you, I love it too. Mark Miletello: I've been to your website, it's awesome. I kind of skipped over you right at the first so I apologize, I'm gonna back up which I don't normally do. Deirdre Van Nest: Oh, that's okay. Mark Miletello: How did you kind of get into this and when did you find out you're really good at helping people learn to speak and maybe you speaking yourself? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, I'll tell you what, this is by accident as well. I was terrified to speak. In 2008 I was certified as a fearless living coach, okay? My specialty was helping other business owners get past the fears and excuses that were holding them back in their business. I would work with financial advisers, insurance agents, chiropractors, attorneys, pretty much anyone who had a service-based business. I was out there marketing myself one by one, going to the networking groups like what we were talking about earlier and meeting people that way. Then I just kept hearing, "Deirdre, you really should go out and speak because that's the best way to grow your businesses." I thought no way, no way no how, I had a really bad experience in my ninth grade acting class where my acting teacher told me I stunk. Mark Miletello : Me too. Deirdre VanNest: It broke my heart, Mark. From that moment, I was 14 years old, I left the stage. When I say left the stage I didn't act any longer and I didn't speak in public for 24 years. I never wanted to hear those words, "You stink," again. When someone said, "You should speak," I was like, "Not happening," then what happened was it was kind of like the lesser of two evils. I became more afraid of not growing my business and not helping people with this message that I had than I became of speaking and, so I just forced myself to get out there and do it. Okay? Fast forward a couple of years later and I've actually gotten good at it and I'm actually helping people and I'm actually getting paid for it, but what's not happening is I'm not bringing in clients from the back of the room and at the time that was a really big part of my model was bringing in clients from the back of the room, so I didn't have to run around to all these one on one coffee meetings all the time. Right? So, I thought I got to crack this code so someone knows how to do this, it's just not me. Who knows how to do this? I started studying with some industry gurus and became certified by Craig Valentine as a certified, world-class speaking coach, I worked with another woman Lisa Sakovich who was just a guru upselling from the stage, started using some of what they taught me, then started tweaking it for my own style and trying my own things, and then my clients at the time were asking me if I could share what I was learning about speaking with them. Just kind of like casually and I was like, "All right, yeah. I'll give you some tips on what I'm trying." I was doing that and then I had one client, I'm going to tell you this is the results not typical. One client, it was a husband and wife team, they went and gave a presentation, and this was in I think this was 2011, it might have been early 12, it was 11 or 12. They gave a presentation and within an hour they had signed up 103 new people, prospects to come into their office from one 60 minute presentation. She and I, we were all blow away, we were all blown away. The wife Becky was like, "Deirdre, you have to do this. I don't care what you're doing, but you need to formalize this and start teaching other people," and I was like, "Yes, I do. You are right, this is amazing." I was so excited by their results it actually saved their business. Then that's what happened, I started systematizing things and I started creating a process, I started getting out there and I was out there a lot myself too. I'm out there in the trenches doing the same thing that I'm teaching which is what I still do Mark to this day. Then the brand Crazy Good Talks we came up with that branding a couple of years ago and that was an evolution of time. Right? Of working with different people and helping me figure out the branding, but I do love it because it's fun and that's what it does, it helps people become crazy good so it's just sort of progressed to this point. Mark Miletello: Well you are great and you're a great person and we're glad that you overcame that class. I kind of had a similar story where I could not say two words in front of a group and I said, "I've got to fix this," so yeah thank you. I'll tell you, in our industry especially professional athletes they fumble every now and then. Sometimes they get mulligans sometimes they don't. Well in our industry because you don't make mistakes. When you're on stage you're flawless, so tell me maybe what you think the biggest mistake that most advisers, agents make when speaking. Let's get into some meat that really, we can bite down onto that could help somebody. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, that's great. I'm sure I make mistakes too, I am not perfect. The last thing I ever want to paint is that picture. Mark Miletello: You're right, I shouldn't do that. That's extra pressure. Deirdre Van Nest: It's extra pressure, exactly. Let me give you a couple of quick wins that you can go and use. The biggest mistake is that most financial insurance professional rely too heavily on their technical expertise alone to deliver their message, Mark. That type of message or language tends to be boring for the consumer and it tends to not be sticky, it tends to be just a lot of facts and figures thrown at people and not have the elements of a presentation that help make it memorable and emotional. The key to really fixing that problem is to be sure to weave stories and analogies and activities throughout your content. Mark Miletello: You watched my rehearsal. I think I tried to do that, I tried to make it more about the storytelling than the facts and figures. I think that's exactly what you're saying is to ... you even kind of helped me understand, which I knew it as well as the others that were watching me, I knew that I was turning my head and looking too much at my own information. The less information that you plaster on the wall the less you're going to be tempted to turn around and look at it more than you're connecting with the audience. I agree I think we must have more stories. We talked about a mistake that they make, what about ... can you give us like a quick win like a strategy that listeners can use right away to make the best that they can with what they have? You know, make their next speech better. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, this is my favorite tip to teach because it's one of those small things that makes a big difference and it's something your listeners could use the moment they stop listening to the podcast. Here it is, the most important part of the presentation is the opening. The reason for that is that's the time frame that people are going to decide if they're going to tune you in or tune you out. Okay? You only have about five to 30 seconds to capture their attention and if what you're saying isn't anything more interesting than what they can find on their phone your talk is toast. What's interesting Mark is that if you can grab people right away they are likely to stay with you for the entire presentation, but if you lose them, in the beginning, you're going to work doubly hard to get them back. You've probably been to presentations where's that happened, where like they start snoozing you in the beginning and you're like, "Oh man," right? And then you're off to the races. Mark Miletello: You can tell from right off the bat, I agree. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I went to your website and I watched all the free tips that I could grab off of their which I think we’re really informative, but that's one of the few things you said to me when we met for just a few minutes before my rehearsal and its really kind of gotten me to thinking about is my beginning powerful enough? I've gone back to the drawing board and thinking how can I make that really connect in a way? I think you're right, it's real helpful but maybe you can give us an example of how we can do that. Deirdre Van Nest: Absolutely, absolutely. There are two strategies that I love for grabbing your audience's attention from the first words out of your mouth. The first strategy is to open by immediately asking them a question. Okay? The question should do three things, it should be related to your content in some way, it shouldn't just be some random question, it should be related to what's coming and the topic. It ideally would get them nodding their heads yes in agreement with you and then the third is it should get them thinking about themselves, the audience thinking about themselves. For an example, tell me what are the benefits that the listener will receive from taking your advice? Mark Miletello: What are the benefits ... in the meeting they're more informed of what their coverages are so personally maybe they should consider doing business with us but to be able... they're not a licensed insurance agent but they can say, I do know this, and I know a person that you should talk to because looking at your current policy or moving to this new home you might need to talk to a professional that I know. The benefit is educating them to make them think that you are the go-to person regardless of price. A real estate in town do we shop around and find out who has the lowest fees, or do we go to the most well-known person that we feel will do the best job? That's I think the ultimate reason we would speak to a group of realtors is to become the expert in the field and I need your help to be a better speaker so that I can look better in front of them. Deirdre Van Nest: Got it, got it. You could do something like your point is, hey we want to educate you so that you have the best information and you're not going out and price shopping people. Right? Mark Miletello: That's right. Deirdre Van Nest: Your question could be to them; your opening question could be something like how do you feel if your own clients' price shop you or how would you feel if a client- Mark Miletello: Chose their realtor based on commission rate. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, exactly. Yes, if you lost a listing based on the commission or if you lost a listing because your competitor was willing to list for one percent less or half a percent less. Mark Miletello: Right, that'll get their attention. Deirdre Van Nest: Right and they're gonna be like, "I wouldn't like that, I don't like that." That's how you should be looking at this, in this industry. Maybe you're going in there because you're educating them, and you want to equip them so that they're the trusted adviser to their clients who have all the answers about their home buying experience. Maybe your angle is would you rather your clients see you as their real estate agent or a part of their trusted advisory team? Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: "Oh trusted advisory team." Mark Miletello: I guess my feeble attempts at funny jokes is not the way to open a meeting, huh? Deirdre Van Nest: I guess it depends on how funny the joke is. Mark Miletello: Yeah, I guess so. Deirdre Van Nest: I was going to give you the second strategy. Mark Miletello: I'll take it. Deirdre Van Nest: That's the first strategy is to open with a question. The second strategy is to just jump right into a story. You could open with a story and so let's say you're talking to those same realtors, maybe the story is about a realtor who used to work with another agent and now they're working with you and what their experience has been. Maybe it's what I call your Why Story, why you're even in this business and why you care about the realtor relationship. Kind of like I told you my Why Story earlier. Mark Miletello: Yeah, things are going through my mind right now of how I could have spoken in front of the realtor group and maybe had other realtor’s endorsements and talk about how those relationships have evolved. Yeah, it's good stuff. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Then if you're going to jump right into a story my recommendation isn't just say, "Oh I'm gonna tell you a story," you could just start by saying, "It was May 24, 1980, beautiful spring night in Chappaqua, New York," or you could say something like, "I want to take you back to the fall of 1992," or "I want to introduce you to my client Mark. Mark was a blah, blah, blah," right? Those are story starters if you will. Mark Miletello: No one’s getting up and leaving when you start like that. Deirdre Van Nest: No, they're not. Mark Miletello: I want to hear. Deirdre Van Nest: And you've got their attention, exactly, you've got their attention. Mark Miletello: Well I love the nugget that you gave us about how to interject, implant ourselves in someone else's efforts of either networks or events or seminars. I love the advice, the professional advice that you've given us. I felt so privileged that I had a few minutes to meet you and know you and to have you watch me rehearse. To me just really the things that you've said have given me more confidence, I'm going in a better direction than I was without you. If other people ... and I don't want it to stop there, I do want to continue getting better and there are several ways to do that, but one is to connect with you in a better way. As we kind of wind down this show how would I work with you more, how do I reach you, what do I need to do to take the next step into learning the things that you've already taught me to build off that? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah great question. There's a couple of different options. I think the best step is to subscribe to Crazy Good Talks TV. That's something that was just launched and it's a weekly video episode specifically for financial advisers and insurance agents. Mark Miletello: Nice. Deirdre Van Nest: Each episode, yeah yeah, each episode has a strategy on how to either be a better speaker or how to grow your business for speaking, how to market yourself, get books for speaking, all things building your business and your brand through speaking. Then each episode also comes with a downloadable template, worksheet, cheat sheet to help you implement that week's lesson. That's a great first step and that's great for readers or advisers and agents and to get that you just got to crazygoodtalks.com/tv. Then the other option is one of the things that I do a lot of is keynoting at conferences and individual companies will hire me to come in and do training for their advisers and agents. If you're a leader listening, and you're interested in something like that just shooting me an email, likewise if you're an individual producer and you're interested in learning this skill set for yourself I do have a 12-month Crazy Good Talks training program where I will teach you step-by-step the ins and outs of how to become a crazy good speaker and how to really build your brand and bring in business through speaking. If either one of those things interests, you I think just sending me an email Mark to D-V-N so Deirdre Victor Nancy@crazygoodtalks with an S .com. Mark Miletello: Well that's crazy exciting, I think that of course you're gonna be on a platform speaking at Lamp in front of all the industry greats and as well as the show will reach a very broad audience including managers and anyone that wants to host a meeting I think you would be a valuable addition like I said in the short amount of time I've known you I feel like I've learned a lot and I feel like I owe you something. I guess you need to invoice me, but- Deirdre Van Nest: No, you are very kind. I'm thrilled to be here. Mark Miletello: It really is, just those few little things when someone is trying to get better at something that is not their forte and yeah, you're saying, "Well Mark you're hosting a radio show so ..." well you know I'm just having fun, I know I can be better at even doing this and every show I get better. But more importantly than that Deirdre is I want to be able to go to my next meeting, I want to go into that and now I can teach my agents how to connect with niche markets that we have, and I can assist them and maybe be the guy that stands up until they feel the confidence and find their voice or help them find their voice. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I see a lot of application in what you do and if I wouldn't have sat next to you or if I wouldn't hear you speak I probably wouldn't realize the value of how much we need that to be better at that type of talent. I just want to thank you for agreeing to come on the show Where the Insurance Pros Meet and thank you for your time. Deirdre Van Nest: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure. Mark Miletello: Absolutely and if you like what you hear go to iTunes, rate and review the show so that others can find it. You can follow me of course on MarkMiletello.com and you will be able to connect via the show on my website on the podcast link, you'll be able to connect to Deirdre Van Nest. Thank you again and we will see you at the next show.

Author, Morris Sims shares how to create understanding with clients. Learn the power of influence in sales. View more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode 6. Morris Sims: What we do, Mark, as insurance agents, we change people's lives. We change people's lives for the better every day. Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers, the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to Where the Insurance Pros Meet. I'm your host, Mark Miletello. Today we're going to discuss influence, understanding influence, increasing your influence, and principles of influence. Of course, in sales, we use our influence on either leading a team to increase production or as an individual just to increase sales. Influence is in everything we do. Our guest is an expert on the subject. He has trained over 80,000 agents and managers. He's written a book called Practical Influence. Highly sought-after leader and coach. I love welcoming Morris Sims to the show. Welcome, Morris. Morris Sims: Well, thanks, Mark. I really appreciate it. Mark Miletello: Glad having you and I'm excited to jump into this. You know, Morris, I kind of designed this show to run alongside a format of, and I gravitate toward, professional athletes. Many times, I was watching Major League Baseball this weekend and I was thinking the practice, from an early childhood they are practicing their skill. Even when they're late in their career, they still practice almost year around and honing their skills. They must have a coach. They have coaches throughout their entire career. I think there's a lot of similarities. What my goal in going into management was to bring that same understanding that we need, our clients really need us to be professionals out in the field. As we're recording this show, Major League Baseball is in the heat of the season. Teams are jockeying for the positions. But, Morris, professionals, they're in the spotlight, right? I would say they have a huge influence over others. Correct? Morris Sims: Oh, I think so, Mark. I think there are a lot of different principles of influence academically that are not necessarily the same principles that I have in the book, but rather maybe a little more academic principle that they've studied over the years in universities. The kind of influence that we're talking about there is the charisma and the collegial, if you will maybe, type of influence. It has to do with seeing someone and wanting to be like them. "I want to be as good as Dak Prescott. I want to be as good as," et cetera. Mark Miletello: Right. That's what drives me sometimes is watching others win awards. You know? Influence affects us. Aren't those major league athletes, aren't they influenced by others as well? Morris Sims: Oh, I think we all are. We all allow ourselves to be influenced by others around us all the time. I guess it's what you would call more of kind of influence: "I want to be like Mike. I want to be able to achieve the same things that Mark has achieved. I want to make MDRT." All those kinds of things are the kind of influence that comes along with other people. We're influenced by their lives, by what they've made of their lives, and we want to be able to be as good as they are. Mark Miletello: You hit it perfect. I want to be like Mike. That type of influence really still today, we know what that means, and they did a good job marketing that. Right off the bat, we're jumping into this, but, Morris, we're going to put you up to bat at first. We want you to step up there and hit us a home run on the first pitch and give us a professional tip right off the bat that can help us. Do you have a professional tip for us? Morris Sims: A professional tip. I'll come up with one for sure, Mark. You know, something I've been working on lately, let me just put it this way, folks. Social media is not dead. It's like what Mark Twain said, "The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated." Well, social media is far from dead. In fact, it is something that I believe we all should be very, very involved in because there are a lot of people out there and there are a lot of people going through that all the time.But here's the deal. You and I are experts in our own business in what we do. You all are experts in the insurance and financial services arena. You know more about insurance and financial services than a guy on the street knows, for sure. Now today, certainly with a Google search, you can learn a whole lot, but you still are much more expert in that than the average guy on the street. Work within your expertise, on your area of expertise, and hire a marketing professional to do your social media for you, or at least set you up to do your social media.The professional tip is one that I've worked on a lot, and I hope we get to talk about it some more, is focusing on what you do best and getting other people to do the things that are not in your area of expertise. You're an insurance expert and chances are you're not a marketing expert. Let's get a marketing expert involved. Mark Miletello: Perfectly said. We will have more time to talk about it. We're excited to dive more into it. Before we jump right into that, I want to know a little bit more about you, Morris. I've read up on you. I've read your book. I've found some articles. I see all the coaching that you've done and the great career that you've had, but I'm just having a hard time understanding how a chemical engineer with a master's degree in science, those aren't usually the prerequisites for having a successful 30-year career in this business. What were you going to be at first and how did you transition into this wonderful industry? Morris Sims: It's like I thought, "What were you thinking?" Yeah, I know. It makes for a really good story, though. I'll tell you that. After five years of being an engineer, I was okay. I was not a walk-on-water engineer. I was good, but I wasn't excellent. I didn't see myself becoming excellent. Frankly, I wasn't having any fun. I wanted to do something that was fun. I wanted to be recognized for the work that I was doing. I wanted to be able to have some control over my life. About that time, my agent came over and we looked at buying some more life insurance because we just had a child. I looked at what he was doing and how he did it and I thought, "You know, that might be fun." I went through the interview process and became an agent with New York Life. My life changed overnight. It really, really did. I've had more fun over the last 30 years than I ever did as an engineer. I've had the opportunity to work with some of the best in the business. I've had the opportunity to meet people, and go places, and do things that I would never have had as an engineer working in a chemical plant or sitting behind a desk designing pumping systems. It would not have happened. It turned out well in the long haul, but at the time I wanted to do something that was fun, Mark. This looked like it was going to be a lot more fun. Again, as I said, I have a lot more control over what I do and what I make than I was as an engineer, as an employee. Mark Miletello: We're sure glad that you did. Thinking about influence, and freshly reading your book, I guess, everything I'm thinking now, and one thing is that agent that came out to work with you on life insurance must have done a pretty good job or had some pretty good influence on you. Morris Sims: He did. It was interesting. He did what I guess we always trained our agents to do. If someone expresses an interest, you immediately defer to your manager because the recruiters are the guys that really know what they're doing when it comes to that kind of thing. That's what this gentleman did. He referred me to his manager. His name, just as an aside, is kind of cute, or funny at least. His name was Ernest Gordon, but everybody called him Flash. He was Flash Gordon. He did a great job of sharing with me how I could be in control of my life, how could I be in business for myself, but not by myself. With the backup provided in his team and the team at the company, we were able to find a way to get out there and go sell some insurance, which we did. That was fun. I enjoyed it. To this day, my son chides me that I didn't stay in the world of being an agent, and why in the world did I ever go into management? But the management turned out well for me, too, I guess. It worked out in the long haul all three ways. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Yeah, just I've been there. You and I spoke last week. There's a lot of similarities we have together. I really looked forward to having you on the show because of that. I was an agent as well. I don't know. I just think sometimes individuals are led to help and work with others. My gosh, you must be one of the leaders in this country of working with agents. Looking back over your career with literally tens of thousands, almost 100,000 or more, of mentees and the positions that you held with really one of the world's top life insurance carriers, and you must have met all the greats in the industry, but what are you most proud of looking back over your career? Morris Sims: Oh, great question. It must be the people, Mark. It must be the people that I had the opportunity to be involved with and hopefully have a little bit of practical, positive influence on their lives. That's the most important thing that I had the opportunity to do. I wish I had been able to do it better and still constantly, you mentioned practice earlier, I'm still constantly practicing how I can relate with people better and how I can have more of a positive influence on others. Because it is what we do with other people that makes all the difference in the world. I think that's the other reason why I am so passionate about what we do and what agents do for a living every day. Because what we do, Mark, as insurance agents, we change people's lives. We change people's lives for the better every day. That's really where the rubber meets the road is when you can change someone's life. As the head of the training area, I was able to institute some new programs and do some things that I hope provided some training that changed people's lives for the better. A lot of agents become successful in this business of ours that maybe might not have been as successful if they hadn't had the training that we provide. I guess that's it, man. It's having that positive influence on other people. Mark Miletello: Right. You're being very humble because everyone I talked to said that you had great influence over their lives. This show is about influence. Let me ask you, Morris, let's talk about influence. What brought you to studying and really writing a book about influence? Morris Sims: Well, it was really my own need. I felt like I needed to have more influence with others and that I need to do a better job of doing whatever it is you do to gain more influence. I wasn't sure what that was. I started doing what I guess most of us would do. I started reading everything I could get my hands on about influence in the popular books and media that were out there. I couldn't find a book, or a podcast, or anything that really answered the two questions that were most important to me, one being what is this whole thing about influence and what do I need to know? What do I need to know to be able to have more influence on other people? Then the second, I think the more important question was what do I need to do differently to have more influence on others? What do I need to do differently? What skills do I need? Finally, how in the world do you go about doing it? How do you improve your skill of having influence with other people? With that in mind, I sat down and started looking at it and started trying to answer those two questions. Suddenly, a book appeared. Mark Miletello: One of the books, I guess, that pop into my mind when I think of influence is Dale Carnegie's book. Morris Sims: Oh, absolutely. Mark Miletello: Did that inspire you or did you- Morris Sims: 100%. 100%. That changed my life back 40 years ago when I was an engineer doing those things that I was doing to read more about sales, and how you go about doing that, and how much fun it was, and where you go. Dale's book made all the difference in the world to me in making the decision to go into the world of selling life insurance. Yeah, that book has been important to me my whole career.It certainly was on my mind as we went through this because he does a lot better job than I do when he starts talking about how you go about gaining influence and how you go about building relationships with other people. That's really where there's the similarity between the two. He does a much better job than I do in helping people learn how. Mark Miletello: I think it was one of the first books I read in the industry 27 years ago and still on my shelf today. I'm glad that now we have another one that built off the back of that because it is one of the most important topics when you're in sales is how you influence others.Reading your book, Practical Influence, there's 10 principles of practical influence in your book. We don't have time to discuss all 10 so, Morris, pick one for me that you think might be the most helpful for our listeners, if you could. Sorry to do that to you. Morris Sims: That's okay. One out of 10. I guess the one that opened my eyes more than any of the others is when, finally, in the research and the reading and the study that I was doing, it finally came to me and I began to understand, probably our listeners understood it a lot faster than I did, but when I had understood that influence comes from how other people perceive us, that made it all clear to me from that point forward. In fact, at one point I thought, "If I can teach people that principle, is there any need for the other nine," and finally decided, yeah, there was. But the key is this. How other people perceive us is going to determine how much influence they're going to allow us to have. Because you see, Mark, I can't influence you unless you allow me to have influence with you. There's got to be a reason that you would allow me to have influence with you. That perception is what makes all the difference in the world. Perception all is derived from how we behave around others, and what we say, and what we do. If we can sincerely, and that's the key word, Mark, is sincere, change the way we relate to other people in a positive fashion, then we can improve our level of influence with those folks. Sincerely is really the key because I tell you what, fake shows up very clearly very fast. Sincere- Mark Miletello: I'm sorry, I'm trying to think of a practical example. Is there a way that you can tie this into maybe what we deal with on a daily or a weekly basis, how that relates? Morris Sims: Sure, I think so. If you think about what we were talking about earlier, the fact that you all are insurance experts in all reality, you know more than the average person out there, if the prospect perceives you to be an expert because of the knowledge you have, because of the experience you have in the business, then they're going to listen to you and you're going to have more influence with them when it comes to things dealing with insurance.For example, take an off the wall kind of example here maybe. Mark, if I were an expert in automobiles and automobile repair, and I was the best mechanic you knew, and I came in, we rode in your car, we've got out of your car, and I said, "Gee, Mark, you know, it sounded a little rough; You may have burned a valve in there, man; You need to take this in and have it looked at," if you perceived me to be an expert in that area, what are you going to do? Mark Miletello: I'm going to run right to the shop because you obviously have this trained ear. I have no knowledge of anything mechanical. I'm going to have to trust you. Morris Sims: If I were to go on and say, "You know, Mark, you really probably ought to take it to go see Joe Smith down on Main Street because he works on that kind of engine and that model car all the time; He is an expert in that area; You'd probably ought to take it to go see," what did I say: Joe? Mark Miletello: Right. Morris Sims: Whoever the guy is down on Main Street. You probably would take your car to go see him, right? Mark Miletello: Exactly. Morris Sims: That's called expert power. That is one of those things that we can do as insurance agents constantly become more and more of the expert in our own business. That will, in turn, allow you to have influence in that area with your prospects and clients. Does that help? Mark Miletello: Oh, absolutely. I was just thinking while you're talking, my mind was going all over the place, but I was thinking that we very quickly will throw out, especially let's say in the property/casualty world, or even life insurance, but in the property/casualty world, we very quickly will throw out a plumber or a water restoration. We have an influence. I think sometimes we forget, especially as newer agents, when maybe our confidence is lower than it will be later in our career, but we forget that we do know tons more than the client, and we should walk in there with a heightened sense of confidence. Maybe we forget about what influence we have. In this world of commoditization where pricing wars, it's harder to stand up and be a professional, especially as a younger rep in the business, a newer rep in the business. I think you're right. I was thinking of a lot of different scenarios where, as an insurance agent, we have influence and yet sometimes maybe we don't use that influence on its fullest extent. Right? Morris Sims: Oh, I think so. It's so easy. It was for me at least. The things you remember, I guess, but I can remember as a brand-new agent thinking, "My word, I'm going to go see this businessman. He's got to know more about this than I do." Finally, one day my manager looked at me. He said, "Morris, think about what you know today and what you knew four weeks ago when you walked in the door the first time to actually become an agent. Think of what you know now that you didn't know then." You think about it and you realize, "My word, I know more about insurance than I ever thought I would ever need to know, much less want to know. And yeah, I do know more than the average guy out there."That's when all of a sudden, a little bit of confidence will show up and a lot of confidence will show up. Then eventually you can be that humble expert that can walk in and have that expert power with your prospects. They will follow your lead because you're doing what's right for them. You're doing it sincerely. You're doing it with that expertise behind you. Mark Miletello: Well, I tell you, it's a struggle in this day and time to learn, to get educated. But you know, one thing, you're right, is that our reps know so much more than the average client. Even a poorly-presented or brand-new rep can really influence their clients by protecting them.You know what? That's what clients need in this day and time more than anything. That's a large reason for me to go into management and for me to start this podcast is we must become better at what we do at influencing our clients to not so much look at the $2-a-month, or $20-a-month savings, or as much as price. I'm a big proponent of value selling and showing the value. I think that does come down to how we influence. It starts right off the bat from the very first meeting as to how you influence your clients. Morris Sims: Yeah, I think you're right, Mark. I think that the most important thing that we can do to begin building that relationship and building that influence is being who we are, and being ourselves, and being sincerely interested in helping other people get what they need and get what they want. Wasn't it Zig Ziglar that said you can have anything that you want in life- Mark Miletello: Help others. Morris Sims: If you just be willing to help enough other people get what they want. Mark Miletello: Right. Morris Sims: If we can sincerely be of a mindset that, "I'm here to help this family, I'm here to help this individual, I'm here to help this business accomplish what they want, and protect their family, and protect their business, I'm doing it to help them," and not walk in there with an idea that, "Man, I'm going to make the biggest sale of my career and everything is going to be great because I'm going to sell a bazillion dollars’ worth of insurance," because you know, Mark, there isn't any sale out there, there's just not one, that is big enough to make your entire career or one that's going to, that if you lost it, is going to kill your entire career. It's a career. It's a 20-, 30-, 40-year practice. One sale isn't going to make or break you, but one relationship certainly is going to have a significant impact on your business. Mark Miletello: Well said. Well said. I was watching, out of all the practicing for their entire lifetime these Major League Baseball players have, they still make errors and they wish that they could take it back. Looking back over my career, there are things that I would do differently. I would. I mean, I learned a lot and people say, "Well, that's why you are where you are because of those trial and errors." Morris, having a highly-successful career and still having a wonderful influence on the entire industry, looking back I think sometimes it's easy for us to learn from maybe others' mistakes. Looking back, is there an error that you had on the field of play in the financial services arena that you can share with us that you might have learned from? Morris Sims: Yes. That would be another three-hour show, Mark. That's for sure. I think the one thing that I've learned recently that I look back and I can see where it caused me struggles and challenges throughout my career, I didn't learn it until I went out and started to try and run this business that I'm running now, that is you must focus. There are so many different things that you can do as an insurance agent, as a business owner, as an executive. There are so many different things you could do that are all good, all practical, all going to help some way or another, going to help move things forward a little bit. But if you try to do it all, you're shallow. You're doing everything just a little bit. It's like being a swamp. You're shallow and stagnant, and you're not moving, and having a great amount of influence and impact. You want to focus on things so that you can cut deep like the Colorado River and cut a Grand Canyon into the earth. You've got to focus to be able to do that. I think that was the key thing that I had to learn was that I had to focus. I couldn't do everything. I said earlier I finally realized I can't do all the things that have to be done to be able to be the marketing expert that I need. I've got to hire that. I'm going to have to go find somebody to do it. I found a great guy to help me, but I had to focus it down to three things. "Okay, what do you want to do, Morris?" "Well, I want to run my own business." You take that all the way down and there turned out to be three things that I wanted to do, three strategies for my business. I wanted to write. I wanted to write books and articles. Or to use that technical term, I wanted to write stuff, Mark, because I enjoyed writing and it works out well for me. I wanted to write. The second thing I wanted to do was speak in front of groups of people because folks have told me I'm good at it and I love doing it. I just love helping people. I wanted to be able to do keynote addresses, and workshops, and facilitate groups of people. That was the second thing. I wanted to be in front of folks.Thirdly, I want to do, frankly, Mark, what you're doing. I wanted to create some digital training that people can find online because, frankly, you know what, with that phone in my pocket or that computer in my briefcase, I'm connected to the world. If I want to learn something nowadays, the web is the first place I go. What if we can create just what you're thinking about? What if we can create a library of knowledge and some practical how-to instruction to gain a skill that will help people get better at what they do all day long? That was the third thing I wanted to do. Those were the three top things that are on my list every week when I plan my week. I guess the real key to focus is this. I sit down on Sunday afternoon and I write down everything that I must do this week. Everything. I put those activities in each of the five days of the week. On Tuesday, it's marketing day. I spend all my day Tuesday focused on how do I get in front of more people and how do I get in front of more people that can have a positive impact on our business so that we can have a positive impact on other folks. It fills it up, fills up the week that way. Then every day I don't have to create a new plan for tomorrow. All I must do is tweak my plan for tomorrow. It works out well.There are going to be a bunch of things on my list every Sunday that don't directly connect to one of these three key strategies. They don't get put on the plan. Mark Miletello: You know, you said this podcast as well. That's kind of where I went with this is that ... I'll give you a perfect example. A partner in this and myself, we Googled, "life insurance sales training," and dog training came up. We laughed, and we said, "This is not going to work. This is not going to work for our industry." What we had to do is develop what we feel is to go out there and find the best with Van Miller, and Garry Kinder, and Tom Henga, and Richard Weylman, and now you, Morris Sims, and the many A-list talent that we're going to have on this show so that others can tune in and, first, and I've said it on a previous show, filter through all the noise out there, all the ads. You're right. Five, 10 years ago, there was no digital online. There was no digital type of training that was substantial. Now they're popping up all over the place. They really are. I'm starting to find more and more. It's still kind of a dead space. Let the listeners decide, but we, as the host of this show, myself, I want to find the best talent so that people can tune in and say, "Okay, that's what I need to know and that's where I need to go to find it." I think that's one of the things out there, so I'm glad that you're also someone that we can trust in the number of people that you've led and coached, and the speeches that you've given that we can follow, and we can learn. We hope that you keep plugging away. But I agree. I think looking back over it, I think everything you say I seem to relate to it. I think we're going to be good friends and I want to continue following you. But looking back over my career, I think that's one of my issues as well. One of my very best agents to this date that, nine years ago going into a leadership position, he said, "Mark, I don't want to do group health. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. I want to do the two, three things that you tell me will make me most successful with the vehicle that I'm in." I shared with him those three things and he became my very, most successful agent because he stayed focus on anyone I've ever worked with. Not like myself, either. I became successful, maybe because I was raised in an insurance family and I had this knowledge of long-term care at age 17 and 18 when it was really a brand-new thing. I've kind of had this knowledge that stretched out. I think because of the history of it, therefore, I was probably doing a lot more things than I should rather than being laser-focused like he was. But you're right. Looking back, if I would have just focused on a couple things that I was really excelling at, I would have had much. I think younger reps in the industry, especially, and maybe even a veteran that's listening to this, that could refocus, that they can hear what you've said and maybe what I've shared, and they can say, "Okay, I'm not going to make that same mistake by trying to be a jack of all trades." Joint work is a wonderful way to do those things. I don't know why I felt like I needed 100% of every commission when in this day and time most of the leaders in our industry do joint work, right? Morris Sims: Oh yes. Absolutely. It is so vitally important as a learning activity. That whole idea of being able to go out and watch, and then be coached by someone who is constantly doing what it is that I want to do every day, man, if that's not worth 50% of any first-year commission that you're going to make, it's probably worth the whole thing in all reality. We're only asking you to put up maybe 30%, 40%, 50%. Mark Miletello: I'm still in the game. I just can't help it. It's just been on my mind and I must share this, Morris. I think you will appreciate this as a coach. I have a rep, went out on his first life sale without me, which I said don't do, but he did. He came back with two $20-a-month term life apps. There were some issues with one of the home policies. The policy was set up to lapse. Anyway, long story short, I went back out to the house with this rep to meet with the clients. We got a commitment with a $20,000 IUL commitment and he had walked out of the house with $40 a month in the term, the $20,000 annual IUL commitment with the same client. If that doesn't share with you right, there that joint work can produce way more than you could have on your own. I love that story because it's fresh and I'll be able to share it, but it's just what you're saying as far as joint work. The greats do joint work. Morris Sims: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think as a learning professional for the past 30 years, I can tell you right now the best practice you can get is out in the real world with a coach for your side. Because if you think about what all those baseball players do when they practice, they're practicing, but they've got a coach with them right there saying, "Think about your grip. Think about this. Try this. Try that." It's that coaching with the practice that makes all the difference in the world. Mark Miletello: You know what, Morris? As one of the thought leaders in our industry, I believe that we must look back at the past and think of what we've done right and wrong. Then we must focus on today and the near future. But I also have the segment on my show that has a professional prediction. The year is 2027. It's 10 years down the road. Morris, as a coach and a leader, help me prepare for five to 10 years down the road. Morris Sims: Wow. That's an important question. It really is. It's one that we all must ask ourselves. Where do you want to be five years from now? Every time I've answered that question, it has propelled me a lot further than my answer. I think for us in this industry, things are changing rapidly. I don't believe personally that we will ever see a world where insurance will be profitable, profitably I guess is as good a word as any, where insurance will be profitably and correctly sold to the masses without having personal contact. I believe that to make the right decision about the insurance protection that I need to have for my family, be it for my office, for my car, for my house, for my boat, for my motorcycle, for my life, to provide for my retirement, that's not going to happen to answer a few questions online or even with artificial intelligence software. It takes somebody being out their toe-to-toe, knee-to-knee, eyeball-to-eyeball, answering those questions, and helping people make the right decisions. Without that, it's just not going to work. It's not going to work at all and it's not going to be in everybody's best interest. With that in mind, here's the answer to your question. I believe we must stay on the cutting edge, whatever that edge might be. It's getting sharper and sharper every day, but we've got to stay on the cutting edge. That means studying and spending money to develop yourself. That means studying and spending money to get your CLU, your ChFC, your CFP, to get the advanced degrees. Maybe a master's in financial services. All those things are available and all of them are attainable. All you must do is go to look for it and go start. Put a foot in the water and get it started. But it's also why we've got to be members of NAIFA. It's why we've got to be members of other professional associations where we can learn from each other. It's one of the important reasons for making MDRT is to get to go to the MDRT meeting and learn from other great professionals. I think that self-development is probably the key, is going to be the key, even more, going forward over the next 10 years. Mark Miletello: Thank you for that and I completely agree. I wish we had more time to really dive into all the wonderful relationships you have and the people that you've met. We'll do that personally because I'm excited to know you now, but looking back over your personal development, can you pick maybe a book or a person that inspired you that we can also look at and maybe gain that same type of inspiration from? Morris Sims: Another great question, Mark. I think the people that have influenced me the most and have had a great impact on my life, are personal friends and mentors that have helped me personally. A gentleman here in Dallas, Andy Marshall, basically taught me how to do public speaking and how to think. Another great mentor, Tony Jeary, also happens to be here in Dallas. Tony has written a book called Strategic Acceleration. Strategic Acceleration. In that book, Tony teaches what he taught me over the last 30 years, that you've got to have focus. You've got to be clear on your purpose. You've got to have focus. You've got to execute. Then he goes into things that will help you learn how to focus, learn how to determine what it is you want, and learn how to execute properly and be able to do it in a very practical manner. I think Tony has been a huge influence on me.Other authors and books, Mark, golly gee. You mentioned Dale Carnegie. That was a big one, but a couple of more recent ones. Drive, by Daniel Pink, talks about how we get motivated and how we can do what we do better. Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell- Mark Miletello: Staple. Yep. Morris Sims: Yeah. He talks a lot in there about practice and it takes 10,000 hours to become a real expert. Then the other one that just really got me going was Shawn Achor's book, The Happiness Advantage. It's funny. He says in there that you don't become happy by becoming successful. In other words, because you become a success, it's not what's going to drive your happiness. In fact, it is the happy people in the world that become successful. It's the other way around from the way we've been taught to think about it as we grow up. The Happiness Advantage is really a great book as well. Mark Miletello: I'll tell you what, I've taken notes, and I've got a lot of new reads. I appreciate that. That's what this show is about is giving us places to go that is highly recommended, and will really filter through the noise, and find out what it is that we're looking for, and really help us in the way that you've explained. I want to tell you to thank you for the time of coming on the show. Tell Carla thanks for giving us your time. How can we find you? How do we research you? How do we follow you best, Morris? Morris Sims: Well, I'm on LinkedIn and that's always a good place to go, I guess. Just Morris Sims, I guess. It's the easiest way. But I have a website that's being developed right now. It took a lot of creative thinking to come up with this name, Mark. Are you ready? Mark Miletello: Go ahead. Morris Sims: Www.morrissims.com. Mark Miletello: Alright. Yep, yep. I got it. Morris Sims: That's Sims with one M. It's M-O-R-R-I-S-S-I-M-S dot-com. Those would be probably the best two ways. I'm doing a lot of posting on LinkedIn about sales skills and other sundry things. I would love to connect with you on LinkedIn. Mark Miletello: Absolutely. We'll look you up. Check out Morris Sims, morrissims.com. LinkedIn. There's a lot of ways. Google him. I think you'll be able to find him easily.If you like what you hear on the show, I ask you that you go to iTunes, rate and review it so that we'll pop up and others can find us because it's very hard to find good things out there. I want to tell the listeners thank you for supporting us and following us. Thank you, Morris. Morris Sims: Thank you, Mark. I really enjoyed it. It was a blast. Look forward to more conversations in the future.

Garry Kinder shares how successful agents form the habits of doing the things people who fail don't like to do and won't do. Learn why activity should be your primary focus. View more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet,' episode five. Garry Kinder: The one thing you can control is activity. Speaker 1: 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet' is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers, the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business, to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.' Mark Miletello: Welcome to 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.' I'm your host, Mark Miletello. Today, we have on the show a true icon in the insurance and financial services industry. Our guest has won more awards, touched more lives, mentored more agents, associated with more companies, written more books, and had over six decades in the insurance and financial services. I could talk half probably the entire show of trying to give a proper introduction to our guest, but I know him personally as a friend. I really think that a personal story he would appreciate more. I met our guest 17 years ago. I came from a prior company where I was top three in that company. I had sold 30,000 of life premium back in 2000. When I made a sideways move to a new company, that was the bottom of the barrel of life. I realized that there was a bigger world out there. I was struggling to figure out how in the world could a multiple line agent do more than 25,000 of life production. I was lucky enough, fortunate enough, to be invited to ... I guess at the time, our guest was being ... It was kind of a study group that the company was seeing could he really affect agents enough to hire him on as a mentor for our company. I was invited to drive to Baton Rouge. I think it was six or eight class session. Garry Kinder: Yup. Mark Miletello: After that meeting, my production personally went to MDRT for three consecutive years after that meeting. All the lives that you've touched, all the agents that you've touched, the clients that you've touched, all roads kind of lead back, and all the greats that I've talked to. Personally, for me, I want to welcome my mentor and one of the greats in the industry. I like to call him the great Garry Kinder. Welcome, Garry. Garry Kinder: Well, it's my pleasure, Mark, to be with you. I remember those days over in, I believe it was Louisiana. Wasn't it? That we met? Mark Miletello: That's right, that's right. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: In Doug Jones' office. Garry Kinder: I remember those days. Yeah, I remember that. I guess we did have six or seven sessions. We had a ... That session had a great impact on you, and you've become a tremendous performer. I'm always glad to hear you talk about what happened back there in Louisiana. That's great stuff. Mark Miletello: Well ... Garry Kinder: Go ahead. Mark Miletello: Well, and you've always remembered that session. Someone that has taught hundreds of classes a year, how do you remember? How do you look back and every time we talk and we meet, you remember that? I know you went on to have a great career mentoring with my company at the time. I don't know, you just have the ability, I guess, to really ... remember that class, those people, that situation. Maybe it's all of them, maybe you just have a great memory. Garry Kinder: Well, I do have ... I was blessed as a young kid with memory. I could remember things. I'll never forget going to a Dale Carnegie course. The very first evening, they said, "We want to go around and have everybody introduce themselves." We did that. Then they pulled this on us. They said, "Now, who here know the names of all the people that stood up and told you their name, and where they're from? How many of you are ready to tell us what their names were?" I went around the room and I think I knew every first name except one. That was the first session of Dale Carnegie, and they gave me ... Of course, they give away prizes and that. The first prize was the Dale Carnegie book. I've always been blessed with ... which helps you in this business. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: Remembering names. Mark Miletello: No wonder, no wonder. Well, that explains it. I'm sure you went on to be a leader in that class. I would have given anything to have been in that class with you. Garry Kinder: Yeah, yeah. Mark Miletello: Garry, let's break for some industry news quick. Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: Studies show 60% of household’s own life insurance. 34% say they want to buy more. Now Garry, the last 100 appointments I've been on, not one of them have had the right amount of insurance or the right plans, the right type of plans, to meet their own needs and goals. I believe that everyone out there is a prospect right now in this day and time. Garry Kinder: I believe it because not only are you doing that and what you've said here about these numbers from and so forth, that that's all true stuff and it's well researched. ... What is happening, and I'll add another thing to what you said, and that is that there are fewer agents ... and there are fewer agencies than there were say, let's say 10, 15 years ago. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: The opportunity for people coming into the industry is just unbelievable. The opportunity is tremendous. Now, they must go through a period of time of being taught and learning, and all that. Some learn faster than others, but there are fewer agents. There are fewer companies. Mark Miletello: Right. Well, and it's ... I'm excited to have you on this show. As you speak, all these memories pop up into my mind of what you taught me. One of those was accountability of also tracking, and keeping my numbers. I had never done that until then. Yeah, I think they do have much more challenges. Of course, every generation ... every decade probably says that. It's just challenging as any new agent in any time that you start in this industry. It is. If it was easy, then everyone would do it, and everyone would make a ton of money. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: But you're right, it's a great opportunity in the fact that there are fewer agents now. They must break through those first couple tough years, don't they? Garry Kinder: That's really true. That's really true. As you look at the agencies and the companies, there are fewer agencies, but they're bigger. Mark Miletello: They're bigger. Garry Kinder: There are fewer companies, but they're bigger, but there still is a phenomenal opportunity for veterans in the business and for neophytes in the business. It's just a great time to be in the business. Mark Miletello: Well, we're going to- Garry Kinder: Great time. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you. We're going to jump into that, but first, let's get into professional strategies. Garry, this show has a format that follows closely professional sports; and mainly because I believe ... First, it's fun. I also believe that the industry professionals in our industry have much in common with great athletes, with the practice, with the training, with the mentorship, and the coaching. To kick off this show, let's talk a little bit about football first. Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: The first book I ... One of the first books I've read in the industry had you, your brother Jack, and Roger Staubach on the front cover, called 'Winning Strategies in Selling.' Tell us about ... Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: Since we're going to go with a football theme, tell us how'd you get Roger Staubach on the front cover? Garry Kinder: Well, we moved to Dallas, Texas, the exact same year that Roger came out of the service and moved to Dallas. We were very active in FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes. The two of us got to know each other really quick. Believe it or not, he had young kids and he ended up having five children, I believe. Back when he was here, he had two or three small children. I had a swimming pool in my backyard. He did not have a swimming pool in his backyard. He was a rookie ... and wasn't making that much money. Back in those days, 1969, 1970, the players weren't being paid like they are today. At any rate, he brought his kids over with a swimming teacher to teach his ... in my pool, taught people how to ... taught his children how to swim. We got to know each other quite well that way. We would ... I did a lot of work with him at the Cowboys. That's back when I did the chapels for the Cowboys, for Landry and for Staubach, anything where he was playing. We just became very, very close friends. We are still to this day. The reason ... that ... some athletes do so well in the real estate business and in the insurance business, ... and Staubach did both. You take the things you did on the playing field and you use them in the business practice. They're very similar. Everything is similar. You got to practice. You got to believe. You got to stick with it. You got to have goals, that kind of stuff. That all made sense to him. Then, so we ... My brother Jack and I, we asked him, "Look, we want to write a book, and we want it to be ... Every book we've written had been geared to the insurance industry. We might like to be ... We'd like to write one that's generic, that every salesperson in every walk of life can read, and get some good information about ... get information from reading the book." That's how that all came about. Mark Miletello: Well, very good. You had mentioned your brother Jack, and speaking of your late brother Jack, I never had the privilege of meeting him. I talk and ... but with a lot of my friends, and industry professionals that had been touched by Jack in the same way that you have touched my career. Can you share with us a bit about Jack? I wish that I had the opportunity to meet him. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Because he sounds every bit as influential and special of a person as you've been in the many lives in our industry. Can you tell us a little bit about your feelings about Jack? Garry Kinder: Well, Jack was five years older than me. He left ... We were both athletes. He ... became a coach in North of Chicago. Now he's five years ahead of me. I'm just getting ready to go to college and he's already out there coaching one year. He coached North of Chicago five years. He ... called home one day, and told ... There wasn't any such thing as an email. He didn't even write a letter. He just called home and told my mom and dad that ... he's going to go into life insurance business. Well, when he hung up the phone and finished his correspondence and everything, my dad said to my mother, "You know, Jack's lost his mind. Why would somebody ... who's a coach go into life insurance?" Then, about two years ... and I was studying ... I was geared to be a CPA ... I wanted to be a CPA. I took a lot of accounting courses in college. ... Jack said, "You're no accountant. You're a life insurance agent. You're born with life insurance in your brain and in your body. You ... This business is really for you. Now, you ... and you ought to start doing it right now." Now back in those days, that was 1953, people ... insurance companies could hire people and encouraged it, by the way, to be ... if you're in college, you can still start selling and learn how to sell your fraternity brothers, and how you sell to students and all of that. When you graduate, you'll have some policyholders, and you'll have some background. I ... started selling life insurance as a junior in college. When I graduated in 1955 from June to the end of December, I worked my tail off and I went over to our leader, our manager. He was in Peoria, Illinois. I was in Bloomington, Illinois. We were both raised in Pekin, Illinois. Jack was in Pekin. Our agency was in Peoria. I was in Bloomington. We'd all go over to him to set our goals for the next year. This was 1955. Mark Miletello: Yup. Garry Kinder: I went over to see him to set my goals. He said to me after some discussion. He said, "Garry, what are you up to? What are you going to do your first full calendar in the business?" I said, "Well, Mr. Holderman, I'd like to qualify for the million-dollar roundtable." He said, "Let me tell you something, young man. You forget the million-dollar roundtable. Young people like you don't qualify for the million-dollar roundtable. Now, it's going to take you a few years to do that." I said, "Well, let's pretend that I did want to make it in 1956. Let's assume I wanted to make the million-dollar roundtable." He said, "Well, I'll tell you how difficult it will be. You have to pay for a," ... and he drew it all out on a sheet for me. "You have to pay for 100 ... for 200. You have to pay for 200 policies your first year." We didn't sell much term insurance in those days. It mainly ... and there was no such thing as what type of products we have today. I said, "Okay. I'll do that. I'm going to ... I'm going to sell four policies a week." I'll never forget going home to see Jack and tell him what I was going to do. I told my dad. My dad said, "Well, what are you ... what are you up to? What are you going to do?" I said, "Well dad, I'm going to ... sell life insurance." He said, "No, I mean what are you going to do day in, day out?"I said, "Well, I'm going to qualify for the million-dollar round table, and that means I got to sell four policies every week. I got to sell 200 policies." He looked at me like I was nuts, and he said, "Well, what are you going to do with the rest of the time if you're only going to sell four policies a week?" That ... It really helped me. Then Jack helped me along there. Jack was a coach. He did a lot of coaching to me, so I qualified for the million-dollar round table before Jack did. Then, we went on to ... sell ... to qualify for the million-dollar round table several other years after that. End of the 1990s, we ... Jack started qualified with me, but I qualified back there. I was ... in 1956, and I graduated in '55. I had a full year to go in 1956. I got the job done. Mark Miletello: Wow. Well, I'll tell you, Jack, ... Every time I hear you talk about him, it sounds like me and my bigger brother. He's four years older than me. He's one of the greats in the financial services industry. I don't know. I just think sometimes ... I think that's what we are to the agents we mentor. We're big brothers to them because it sounds like you and I had a good big brother that showed us the way and gave us great guidance. I believe ... I think it's safe to say he was kind of a mentor of yours as well. Garry Kinder: Was he ever. He got to the point where he started making MDRT with me. It was too bad he was in Northern Illinois. We both lived in Dallas. He ... was up doing a program with a company in the Quad Cities. I was on Rock Island. He had a stroke. From that point forward, he couldn't walk. He couldn't talk. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: But he could understand everything you said, everything you said. I'd take ... keep people ... some of them, like you,'d know, like Ron Price, and people like that, that you know. We'd regularly go over and talk to Jack. He could talk ... I mean, he could listen, but he couldn't talk. We'd say something that was funny and start laughing, and then I'd take Staubach over there. Staubach would kid him like you wouldn't believe, and get him laughing. He would be laughing, but he couldn't talk. He couldn't walk. He had to be taken care, but he kept his optimism. He kept him... he didn't poo-poo, or he didn't say ... Well, he couldn't talk, so he couldn't tell us how bad it was, but he would sit there and listen. Mark Miletello: You could tell. Garry Kinder: He could listen to every word, and he'd laugh; if it was something to laugh at. Mark Miletello: Well, I think that's what it takes to be successful in this industry. No matter what the odds, no matter what the challenge is, you always keep that optimism. You always have the vision and looking forward. I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet him. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: He was still around when you and I met, but ... Thank you for sharing about Jack, and talking about Jack, and all the ... I mean looking back over your career, can you ... tell us maybe someone that you looked up to in the way that we look up to you, Garry? Is there some ... Some of the greats in our industry that you recall that really stand out, that you've met over your illustrious career? Garry Kinder: Sure. First, our manager, Fred Holderman, in Peoria, Illinois, was the first man inducted into the GAMA Hall of Fame. He was a great inspiration to us. He was ... because he'd been in the business forever. He was the first one inducted into the Hall of Fame. He was just a great manager and a great leader. He taught us two things that I'll never forget: systems. You got to have systems. You got to have a sales system. You got to have a calling system. You must have a system of gathering referred leads. You must have systems. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: You must have systems. He just kept saying that repeatedly. You must have systems. He also said you got to keep score. ... We would have to send to him every week how many dials, how many reaches, how many applications, how many paid cases did you get done this week? We'd send that to him and he would send it back with a ... writing on it. It really helped me, and it inspired me. Mark Miletello: Well, that's what you had me do. Garry Kinder: He also- Mark Miletello: In the meeting, we had together. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: That's what you had me bring in at those training sessions, and it does, and it did. Garry Kinder: It makes a difference. I'm telling you, Mark. It really makes a difference. When we would send those in at the end of every month, he would send ... I think it was like $100 check, which was unbelievably high back in ... and that was in 1955, '56, '57. Every time you turn that in with the whole agency, and some would turn them in, some wouldn't. The ones that would turn them in, he would grade them, and he would pay ... He would send an extra $100. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: He said, "This is what you get for keeping the record, and you had the best ... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well, there was another guy that was strong. His name was Dale Nelson, and he was up in Joliet, Illinois, not too far from Bloomington. Every month, either he or me, one or the other, would win that $100. We were both selling on average, four paid cases a week. Today, that's unheard of. Mark Miletello: Right. Well, it's funny that you ... Most people I talk to, we talk premium, premium, premium. Every time I talk to you, it's always activity. I think of the systems that you taught me. The activity funnel, which is every time I bring on a new agent, I pull out your activity funnel. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I talk about taking ... yes, how do you get to MDRT, but then you reverse it all the way back down to the daily activity that it takes? One thing you taught me, and I remember it, and I've used it, and I will never forget it. It's, "Mark, you've only sold 30,000 of life premium in your best year.""Yes, that's right, Garry.""Well, tell me, how are you going to go out and write 100,000 in life? You can't do it. I mean, you can't even visualize it; but what you can do is you can go out and write four applications and a week, and it will set you up. You can't tell how big those are going to be. You can't tell if the client's going to say 'yes,' or 'no,' or whether it's going to get issued or not, or the health of the client, or what not; but you can control your actions." That's something I'll never forget it. Garry Kinder: That's so good, Mark. That is really good. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: It's really true. The one thing you can control is activity. Then, you just go down that chart and ... you watch the activity, and suddenly, you're being highly successful. Our manager ... Go ahead. Mark Miletello: No, no, I just ... I was recruiting an agent the other day and one of our first training meetings. I just said ... I said ... and maybe I got a little strong.I said, "But if I held a gun to your head and said, 'Go out and write 100,000 of life premium,' could you promise me you would do that?" He goes, "Yes, I could with a gun to my head."I said, "Well, no you can't. You can't promise me that." I said, "But if I told you, you had to talk to ten people a day to have five set appointments, to have three applications a week, could you promise me that you could talk to ten ... In fact, you could talk to ten people in an hour if you had a gun pointed at your head." He goes, "You know, you're right. I would walk out of this door and knock on every door I could. I'd talk to 50 in an hour if I had a gun to my head." I kind of had a little twist of what you taught me. Garry Kinder: That's. Mark Miletello: I just shared with him that you can control your actions, but you can't control the results. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: It's really true. You can control that activity. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: That's good. That's a great thing to talk about. Mark Miletello: Garry, I know what it took me to go to MDRT. I have you to thank for that. You've shared with us your story of going to MDRT. You also were involved and got involved in the management side. I know your brother Jack was probably ... Would it be safe to say he was more of a manager, and you were more of the producer? Garry Kinder: That's correct. That is correct. Mark Miletello: You ended up going into leadership as well. Can you tell us about the management side of the business? Garry Kinder: Sure ... sure. Mark Miletello: And when that happened. Garry Kinder: Sure. Well, at 19 ... Let's see, 1958. Yeah, in 1958, I'd been in the business counting my one year as a junior college and a senior in college, selling that ... calling that one year, and then two or three more years. They, at AXA we had this man, Fred G. Holderman, who was the first one inducted into the Hall of Fame. He was always constantly saying, "People like you ought to be in management because you can continue to sell, and ... you can ... coach as you go along. And then, you can recruit people." He sent me over to ... I was at Bloomington, but he called the manager at Bloomington and he said, "I'm going to put Garry in your unit, and I want you to leave him alone because he's got his brother, but I want you to leave him alone." He was telling this on the telephone while I'm sitting there listening to him talking to a manager. He said, "I want you to leave him alone and he'll take care of everything. Give him a good desk and just leave him alone. He'll send all his stuff to me, and we'll get her done. You just sit there and take it." Then when he hung up, he said, "What little do you ... don't know is in the next couple years, he's not going to make it. He's not going to make it. I'm going to need somebody like you in a college town talking to young kids, getting out of college with degrees ... some of them have taken a lot of insurance courses." Illinois Wesleyan and Illinois State University both had strong ... insurance courses. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: I took ... I had 16 hours of insurance when I graduated. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: It was a strong place to start. Eventfully, I started hiring people. He told me, "I want you to take over. The man that was there, I've asked him to go to other places and you ... you take over and sell a lot of these college kids." Well, the college kids in my era were getting back from the war. They were tough-minded people. I hired a lot of these people who came back out of the service into the life insurance business. I ... brought them in off the college campus. I had like the captain of the ... the football team at Illinois State University. He came on and he just died about a year ... less than a year ago. He was an outstanding agent, outstanding agent. I hired the quarterback from Illinois Wesleyan and brought him into the business. He decided he wanted to spend more time coaching than being in the insurance business, but I did bring him in. He did do a good job, but he wanted to go back to ... Then he became the athletic director in Illinois Wesleyan, but he had all that insurance background and believed in ...I brought a lot of these kids in, and I knew which ones fit our industry and which ones didn't. I hadn't been out of the business two years ... I mean I hadn't been in the business two years and I'm in ... I'm a ... what AXA called a district manager. Mark Miletello: Which was you were still producing, right? I mean you were still a production man. Garry Kinder: I was still producing. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: At an MDRT level. I was still producing, and I was hiring three or four a year. I was bringing them in. At that time, Equitable had a gold ... deal or a gold ... What do you call it? Trophy, a gold trophy. They had a gold trophy for the leading general agent and the leading district manager. At that time, I was the district manager. I got that gold trophy. I was number one in the country. Mark Miletello: Nice. Garry Kinder: Then, I moved to Akron, Ohio, where I took over an agency. After a couple years, I got the gold trophy for agency managers. In both cases, I could sell Equitable to this day, by the way. AXA still encourages managers to sell. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: Particularly district managers. Mark Miletello: A lot of companies are getting away from that, you know that? Yeah. Garry Kinder: Oh yeah. Yeah, I look at it every day. They're getting away from that. Northwestern, Mass Mutual, Equitable still like their managers to sell. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: But they're ... fewer and fewer companies are doing that. I have nothing against it. It's just that it fit me better because I loved selling. It fit Jack tremendously because he wanted to coach. He was ... a better coach than I was. As we went along, I made a lot more money because I was still performing as an agent. Mark Miletello: I got a funny story to tell you is that ... I'm in a position where, as you know because I went through your agent mentoring. I also went through your management mentoring when I decided in 2008 to ... I'd won a lot of the awards that our company had to offer, made a lot of money. I wanted to ... I was good at recruiting, and bringing people in the business, and helping them, and building processes and systems the same way that you did. Seven years later, ... and I didn't want to be competition with my agents, I guess was my excuse. I was getting very rusty, and I was telling my agents, "You know, this is how I used to do it, and this is what I did." They're like, "Well, Mark, times are different. You know, it's seven years." People ... They looked... I had some great success. I was the number one agent in the company. It was just funny that ... I don't want to put it this way, but kind of sometimes a great producer in your own homeland. They don't see that. They don't know that. That was a different time and a different era. Just ... a lot of things, but also really client meetings. I was getting rusty over seven years, Garry. Last year, I have you know, I kind of jumped back into production just to sharpen my ax again. I hit MDRT last year. Garry Kinder: Good. You know, I didn't realize that. I'm glad to hear that. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: That's tremendous. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Well, looking back over your career, you've told us about all the awards, all the neat people you've met, all your mentors, all the success you had. Is there one thing, an award or a time? Is there may be a client relationship? Is there something that you're most proud of looking back? I know that's a hard question. Garry Kinder: Yeah, that's a tough question. ... What I'd ... would think about and what I felt best about was helping people come into this business, and helping them succeed. Today, I still get a lot of messages, a lot of letters. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: With people like you, and I could name, after a name, after a name. I really, really love being in the business. I got really good feedback, and that helped me. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I'll tell you one other thing that's a little off course, but I want you to hear this, that at Illinois Wesleyan, I was president of the fraternity of the Phi Gamma Delta. ...People in the fraternity kept saying to me, "You really ought to be a preacher. You ought to be a pastor. That's what you ought to do." Mark Miletello: I agree with that. Garry Kinder: I said, "Well, I don't feel ... I don't feel like doing that." I said, "I don't feel the calling." I went to a pastor that liked me, who was what you'd call a college pastor. He had a lot of college kids coming to his church. I was one of them. One time when I was a junior in college, I went to him. I said, "You know me... a lot of my friends and fraternity brothers are saying that I ought to be a preacher." He said, "Well let me tell you something. If you're going to be a preacher, you will know it. You will be called. You will know it." He said, "Let me tell you something else. You can do more good for the cause of Christ and the cause of religion. You can do a lot more if you're not a preacher if you're a worker if you're a layman. So, don't you pay attention to those kids? You just go ahead, keep selling insurance, and be the best insurance person in town, and ... they'll follow you, and not only in the insurance world, but they'll follow you in the spiritual world." As you know, that's what we teach, that there's the physical side of life. There's the financial side of life. There's the ... the medical side of life. You got all these things that you want to take care of, but you take care of your spiritual life. Everything else will fall in line. Mark Miletello: Well, you know I agree with that. Thank you for sharing. I think I tend to agree. As you go into a leadership position, the proudest moments are not about the awards anymore. You've had the success. It's more about those lives that you were able to touch along the way. I completely agree with that. My next question was going to be what motivates you because your energy level and your ... When I see you at conferences, you're the first one in the gym in the morning. When you're on stage, ... you light up the stage. You wake up the crowd. I think I know what motivates you after this show is you just love the business, and you love sharing it. Garry Kinder: Yeah, I love the business. I've been blessed with health, good health. Consequently, a lot of people say to me, "When are you going to retire?" I said, "I'm not sure." First, there's nothing in the Bible about retirement. You can go there from Genesis through Revelation and you're not going to find ... retirement in there. I'm going to ... and I'm not against retirement. I'm for it, and some people need to retire, but I didn't need to retire. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I just love the work, got up every morning, go to work. Now, I don't go overseas as much as I used to. I've got several people that help me with that ... in our office. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I do stay at work every day. I think it keeps you alert. I think it keeps on the ball. Mark Miletello: I absolutely ... I think you're going to be here long after I'm gone. You're going to make it, long time. Your inspiration is felt in the industry, and we thank you for it. You and I kind of had a conversation about the state of affairs. I think every year; every decade has state of affairs and issues. What I'd like to do, Garry is ... and maybe this is going to help the new agent. Maybe look in the future, today and into the future over the next years, and give us a professional prediction. You and I kind of have our conversation before we jump there, we had a conversation about the value of our products and the need for our products. Maybe if a new agent, new ... a person entering the industry could hear a bit of information about what you and I talk about, and the need for our products today. Garry Kinder: That's right. Well, ... I remember way back in college being ... Illinois Wesleyan and Illinois State University, as I said, were heavily ... You could take insurance courses ... because they were both very much involved because of State Farm. That's the home of State Farm. They put ... They've helped ... Mark Miletello: Cater to that. Garry Kinder: Those two universities. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Come up with ... good curriculum. I'll never forget the professor. He did a few works ... He was a professor at Illinois Wesleyan, but he also did some work for State Farm. He ... I'll never forget as a senior, I took my final insurance course. It was life insurance. Life insurance and financial affairs. There was a course on social security. There was a course on this, a course on that. Now he comes, my senior year, and I'm sitting there in the ... classroom. He said ... and he walks in one day like in the middle of the year, and he said, "I'm going to give you today a what it, what it takes to be good in the life insurance business as an agent; because there's some of you in this room that maybe should be going in to life insurance and in sales. Some of you need to go to the home office, but there's a bunch of you ... Not a bunch, but there's a few of you in here that probably need to go into the life insurance business as an agent. And let me tell you how important it is." He said, "People buy automobiles. They have to be sold cigarettes." He said, "People buy ... liquor." He said, "They have to be sold life insurance." He said, "Some people, you know, have to be motivated to get certain things done, and so of the greatest occupations you can go into is a teacher, a preacher, or a life insurance agent. And that's how important it is for some of you in this room that is going to be insurance agents," and a lot of the people in the room laughed, including me. I soon learned that it was one of the greatest things that can be done, and that is to be in the life insurance business. It's a calling. It's almost like being a preacher. It's a calling. After a while, you want to help people get the job done. Some of them are agents that you're training. Some of them are clients that you're continuing to be with. Mark Miletello: Well, I agree. I think that ... I don't know. I guess especially after ... They say you're not in the business until you deliver your first claim. I hate that, but that's I think the way it is, that you don't realize the calling factor of being able to touch a family in the way that ... a life insurance agent can. I tell people that once the food's gone, once the attorney's gone, once the doctor can do no more, ... you're standing there with a considerable check to provide for the family.I agree and as far as your professional recommendations, Garry, you have ... written more books in our industry than anybody that I know of. I don't know that there's anyone out there. I know that you have systems and processes. You've got the activity funnel you gave me, the financial house process. Rather than share with us outside, and maybe you can share with us an outside inspiration ... Out of all your books, is there may be one that ... you would mention to a first-time reader that was following you? Garry Kinder: Yeah, the ... We have a bunch of ... books. In fact, right now, I'm writing a book with my daughter who's been on the MDRT. She's a speaker. She's been on the MDRT. I think maybe you heard her speak. She is a teacher. She's a speaker. She's got what it takes. There are the two best books right now, or out of a bunch of them is the ... 'Professional Sales Process.' Mark Miletello: Great. Garry Kinder: The 'Professional Sales Process.' It's how to sell life insurance from the very beginning of getting clients to the very end of getting referred leads, and ... not only getting referred leads but helping people ... as you say, when you settle a death claim. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I have settled several of those up to families where I was the agent. I sold the policy, got them to take the policy. That's a great feeling. It's really a great feeling. That's one book, 'The Professional Sales Process.' Now, for managers, the best book we have there is 'Building a Master Agency.' Those two books are A to Z. One for agents, one for managers. Mark Miletello: Well, I've read them both. I've read 'Building the Master Agency' several times. I just got to tell you, Garry, that I wish ... I know this has been twice as long as our normal show, and our normal podcast. I just felt it was a special moment to ... and it was an honor and a privilege to have you on board with us. I just got to tell you from the industry, on behalf of the industry, thank you for your energy, your mentorship. Thank you from the clients' perspective, all the lives that you've touched through the agents and managers that you've ... I know you got a lot going on today and a lot going on in a busy career still, and to take the time, I got to tell you how much it means to me. Garry Kinder: Well, I'm proud of you and what you've done, Mark. I'm glad that you're doing so well. Down the line, we can do this again in six months, or whenever you want to ... call me back and ... continue some of the things we didn't get to today. Mark Miletello: Well, you're right. We have so much more to do. Thank you for that invitation, I absolutely will look forward to that. To dive in, I think more of your coaching, and your processes, and your tips, and your books. We wanted to know about you and your life on this call. Thank you for that invitation. Garry, is there any last words you want to share, as well as maybe how people best can follow you? Garry Kinder: Well, stick in there. One of the things you and I talked about was ... from time to time, we're going to fumble, sometimes big sometimes small. No matter what happens, to the people I'm talking to, follow what Mark's talking about, and follow what I'm talking about here. You will do well. You are doing ... You're in a great business. It's a wonderful place to be, and help people ... accomplish their financial goals, because most of them need the help of a strong financial agent. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you, Garry. We love you and we appreciate you. I'm sure anyone can Google Garry, G-A-R-R-Y, Kinder, and you'll find as much information as you want to as far as how to follow him. Garry Kinder: That's right. Mark Miletello: If you like what you hear on this show, go to iTunes, rate and review us, and that way others can follow us. I'm Mark Miletello, your host, on 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.'

Life Insurance expert Billy McDougall, takes us on a journey that can completely evolve your life insurance business. Learn why questions are the key to success. View more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT   Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode Four. Billy McDougall: He said, "Your credibility, your professionalism, all of that is going to be defined not by the things that you say, not by the things that you prove in terms of your product knowledge, but by the quality of your question." Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a Podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. Today is an exciting day. I think most of you are going to gravitate toward our guest that we have because he is an agent. He's an agent who started from scratch. One of my first hires as I went into management 10 years ago. He started really from the medical sales industry and transitioned into the insurance industry. To be able to watch him from day one of his career has been a real treat. He's led my agency. He's been a leader in the company. I believe you're going to love to hear from our guest, Billy McDougall. Billy McDougall: Hey, Mark. Thanks for having me. Mark Miletello: Well, I'm excited to be with you and a couple reasons why. One is you are an agent that I've watched come into this business from an outside industry. You've started from scratch. I've watched the progression of going and you learning different styles. You've learned from several people in the industry, and you've continued to evolve until now. You have one of the most dynamic and powerful life insurance discussions I believe I've ever seen. I'd like to think I played a part in helping you get there, but I'm excited to see the success you're having. You've won back to back Agent of the Years, as well as you are a fireman and you risk your life right now in the California wildfires to protect us, to thank you for your service and welcome to the show. Billy McDougall: Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. Yeah, I do want to extend a thank you to you. You laid the groundwork for me in this industry. You helped me get my peanut or meet me and just figure out what it meant to have discussions, meaningful discussions with clients. You've also helped me to reach out within the industry and find the very best and brightest and to try and [inaudible 00:02:46] my discussion even more, so thank you for everything you've provided for myself and for my family. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you. Of course, you're my client, so thank you. Having you part of the test pilot group with this entirely new life discussion ... Tell us first before we get into what you're doing now, and using you as the Guinea pig and the test pilot of really transforming and evolving our life discussion. Now, what we're basically launched on VanMark.life. Tell us a little bit about when you got started. Some of the struggles you've had, some of the successes you've had in discussing life insurance. Billy McDougall: Honestly, when I started, I didn't really know much of anything about life insurance. I was joining what I thought was just a PNC company and then it was made very apparent that we were primarily a life insurance company, and that honestly kind of scared me a little bit because you must own car insurance by law. You must have home insurance to carry a mortgage, but you don't have to have life insurance, and I was fearful of how it would be received by clients. I did, I guess I grew in my knowledge of it. Really embraced and just fall in love with the product, and the need that we instill in families. I'd say that I started by just trying to establish a level of professional knowledge with my clients. I think if you go back and listen to the types of discussions that I had with clients when I first started, they were effective relative to product knowledge. Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: They weren't super effective relative to generating a discussion. They were still very much one-sided. I believe I probably did 90% of the talking and the client only did 10%, and hopefully, I was able to stay in their good graces long enough to let me finish through that discussion. Mark Miletello: Oh no, I agree. As a matter of fact, I think I still have that recording where you came into my office eight or nine years ago and delivered a mock, not presentation, of course. But at the time, I was your only liaison to the industry, so you were basically duplicating my process and maybe a couple others that I introduced you to. I think that's kind of the way we've all been taught, or maybe we feel like even, regardless of the way we've been taught or not, it's so much information we feel like we must get through within an hour, which ends up sometimes becoming two hours that we feel like we have to talk 90% of the time. Right? Billy McDougall: Correct. Yes. Honestly, part of that for me was when I first started, I thought that I had to legitimize myself in being a professional in the eyes of the client. I believe that that was done by showing them how extensive my product knowledge was. Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: That lends itself to a presentation-style discussion. Mark Miletello: Well, when you say "presentation-style discussion", expand on that and tell us what that means to you. Billy McDougall: Well, I think I was very effective in getting across points. Whether or not those were received is a completely different aspect, in whether they're received in the way that they want to be received. It's kind of like, what do they say? You throw a spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. That's how those presentations were. Though they were effective, and I was able to sell life insurance with those, they were a lot of work. It was trying for myself to keep the clients engaged. I had to constantly battle and do work against their attention spans, relative to what I thought was hopefully important in their lives, instead of me really having a good discussion where they're doing 90% of the talking. They're engaging me, and we're addressing things that are relevant to the first and foremost, relative to these products. Mark Miletello: When you say "presenting", I think what I heard you say is you feel like when you call it a "presentation" or you're presenting to the client, you feel like 90% of the time you're talking because you're trying to express a level of professionalism through your product knowledge, through the extensive details of the bells and whistles of the product, right? Billy McDougall: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Great analogy. You're throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. What that means is you're spewing this product knowledge so much that every now and then, something sticks. But you know what? You did a pretty darn good job of it. You came right in, won trips, won Agent of the Year, led my agency for three or four years in a row. What was so bad about it if it works? Billy McDougall: It wasn't so bad. In fact, it was tremendously effective. But it made it very hard for me to consider a change. In fact, there are national speakers that I had heard multiple times, multiple years in a row before I made a commitment to do something different. I can't even honestly tell you what triggered that desire to make a change, but I finally did. I took a leap of faith and I completely rearranged my ... The presentation is gone. It's not a presentation at all. Everything now is a discussion with the client, where I'd say they're doing at least 50% of the talking. On a good day, much, much more. It's much more engaging for them. It's much more specific for what they care about, and it's much more effective in terms of making sure you have a good product then because ethically then for me, ultimately, I only want what's best for the client, and their opinion is the one that matters. If I'm giving them a presentation, how am I meeting their needs? I'll tell you, I've had just so much fun in changing this into a true discussion, helping them organize their thoughts around important concepts like life insurance, financial planning, based on helping them by leading them through a sequence of questions that are relevant to those things to understand what matters to them. Mark Miletello: Well, I heard you say something in there. A strange word to our industry in the form of meeting with a client, but you said you have fun with clients. I remember when you and I were on the cuff, and it's okay to say it. You and I were together, following Van Miller, and Van Miller and I, of course, have developed VanMark.life, which you were instrumental in helping us. At this point, I don't know who comes up with what. I'm sure it all stems back from Van, and Van says it stems even further back to the mentors in his. Yes, whether it's Gary Kinder, or Tom Hegna, or Brian McKnight, or Van Miller, or all those things, I do recall, and it's been about two years for myself, so I'm trying to put the timeline together. But you and I decided at some point that we had to start with the first step of calling our new, evolved presentation, if you will, a life insurance discussion. I think that was the first step of reminding us of, number one, not to talk so much. Right? Not to just continually beat them up with bells and whistles and product knowledge. At some point, we ... I still let it slip every now and then, but I've conditioned myself to even call the training platform and its own lifeinsurancediscussion.com, that that's the first step I think, Billy, that you and I walked through was to start reshaping how we talk to clients by even what we call what we're doing. Then you said, "having fun in a meeting". How do you have fun at a meeting? I mean, I think we all think it's a little bit fun what we do, especially when we win and we make sales and have success. But I think you're talking about a different kind of fun. Right? Billy McDougall: Always at some level in the meeting, you have the sensation that you're helping lead them down a road, and I think that the client has that same sensation. Van Miller is just fantastic and been listening to him speak over multiple years now, multiple occasions. One of the things that he said, and this goes back to where I was trying to establish, initially when I was new in the industry, my credibility, he said, "Your credibility, your professionalism, all of that is going to be defined not by the things that you say, not by the things that you prove in terms of your product knowledge, but by the quality of your questions." I just thought that was just the oddest thing to hear, and I wrote it down multiple times from multiple speeches that he's given on national podiums or regional podiums. Finally, I internalized that. It's been incredible, the things that he said. I literally just last week had someone who said, "You're the most knowledgeable insurance and financial advisor I have ever met with, and I'm 51 years old and I've been dealing with people my whole life. For the first time, I really have a sense of understanding and comfort in what I'm trying to accomplish." That's because I had him do all the talking. Everything was questioned. The thought process is we all want to be good at insurance and financial planning, as clients. As clients, we want to be good at that. We want to do it well. There's nothing in there that is exceptionally difficult. Everything is very much common sense, but people don't have organized thoughts around those considerations, so they can conclude, so the types of questions we ask help them organize their thoughts around insurance and financial planning. When you do that, it becomes a lot of fun because it's truly a fun, interesting conversation, give and take, instead of, "Let me control this time so I can have you here, understand, and value what I'm trying to share." It truly has just been interesting conversations, and you have to be willing to put yourself out for that. Once I finally did, I was just like kicking myself, going, "Oh my gosh. I should have done this years ago. I should have trusted Van in the very beginning because it has absolutely changed the way my clients view me. It has changed my level of enjoyment and excitement in terms of what I'm doing, and it absolutely changed consistency, and satisfaction, referrals." Across the board, it's just opened the floodgates in terms of changing my business. Mark Miletello: I talked to Van, and as of the recording of this show, as of today, I just launched the lifeinsurancediscussion.com training platform that allows the agent to walk through that same process that you and I have walked through in an organized fashion. It's just funny that you haven't even seen the finished product, but you know that what it took you and me... You're right. You and I heard Van say it. We went to four different speeches where we've heard him talk. We had the same set of notes. I even told Van this last week. I said, "Van, it's hard when something works for someone, and whether you're selling five life apps a year or a hundred, whether you're selling $5,000 in premium or $50,000 as a multiple-line agent, or $250,000 or more, you feel like you have a process that somehow works, that gets the job done." I remember you saying earlier, you had to decide to throw all that out of the window. It's not that we forget because we still have those things, those stories and those discussions that we can pull out, such as stories of the farmer and the seed and things like that. But I think what took you and me two years to get to was letting go of the way we do things and say, "Okay ... " The funny thing, Billy, you and I have challenged each other to have a complete interview discussion with a client, and try to ask questions the entire time. Now, I think it's virtually impossible if you were to record yourself to not have a statement in that entire 45-minute or hour-long meeting. You're going to have statements. Billy McDougall: Of course. Mark Miletello: But I think it's a fun challenge for each other to say, "Hey Billy, let's try to go through an entire life insurance discussion with just asking questions." I've tried to do that. It's impossible, but it's fun to try. Billy McDougall: Yeah, and Van has some interesting nuances that he uses in his discussion. When he needs to address a point to drive home a concept for them to consider and decide how they value that concept, he'll ask them. He'll say, "Do you mind if I share a story with you?" Now, you're engaging them instead of just launching into, "Well, I've got a story for you about this." Or, "Do you mind if I share with you this aspect or another?" Those little nuances help to keep that sensation, that feeling of it being very conversational, even in points where you need to get them a little bit of detail so that they can make a better determination of their opinion. Mark Miletello: Billy, you and I have kind of started this path together a few years ago, like I mentioned. At times, we've talked about it, we've shared notes. I put together a PowerPoint of my thoughts and even recorded voice-over over each slide. At the same time, I give you credit for doing the final piece of the puzzle that needed to be done for me as an agent. Not talking about management. I'm just saying as an agent in the business, as peers I guess I should say, what I credit you is getting it on one page. That's what I've always told every educational department I've worked with, and process that I've been. You must get it on one page for agents to wrap their brain. I'm giving you the credit on the show for being the guy who put the final pieces of the puzzle and got this life insurance discussion on one page. Can you tell us the importance of that, how you did it, and tell us about that one page? Billy McDougall: Absolutely. Well, first, none of that is original content. None of that is an original thought. All of that is stuff that I've garnered basically standing on the shoulders of giants. People like Van Miller, people like yourself, other people in the industry, Tom Hegna, using their concepts and their ideas. I said, "Okay, there's such a great amount of knowledge there, and I'm just not that smart of a guy. What I really need to do is I need to have a way, on a consistent basis, whether I'm on and having good discussions with clients, or whether I'm a little flat and I'm not good. On a consistent basis, something that can ground me and help me stay on track in terms of not a presentation, but in terms of appropriate ideas to bring up questions about, to discuss." What I did is I took basically some of the main components that I feel like I identify the most, taxes, volatility, fees, inflation, leverage, and I kind of built out, I don't know if you want to call it an outline or an agenda. It's just something that's good for me so that I can track along with the client and I know where I'm going next, and we address those things in that way. I'm able to be consistent in my discussions. The discussions go whichever way the client wants them to go. But I'm sure we've all been in meetings where a client brings up something, you're off on a tangent, and you never end up back to addressing some of these issues and concerns that really the client needs to consider for them to have organized thoughts and move forward in the insurance or the financial world. Mark Miletello: Yes, and having an agenda ... Really, I've gotten away later in my career from using or having an agenda. You've been one of the few agents that I've worked with that has always used an agenda, and you make no excuse. In fact, you make it a great thing. You tell the client, "I have an agenda, so we don't get off track. We're going to go through this, and I'm going to actually take notes and give you a copy of this." That's one thing that I've just been amazed at the way that you do is that the notes that you have from your meetings are by far the best that I've ever seen. It's better than my own. What I like about it, and back in the early days when you needed my help, and you would send me that, it would just blow me away. But what it does is it helps you keep a record of the client's goals, dreams, wishes, needs, and deliver that back to the client and present that back to the client by saying, "This is what you told me, and this is how we're going to fix it," which I think is a great idea that I've seen very few people, if any, do in a life insurance discussion or sale. But putting it on one page, then an agent can take all this world of information that we've been gathering for two years, and thinking that it's just so much. It's drinking from a fire hose, using a fireman aspect there. That's what I felt, and I've led this industry as a life insurance agent, and to me, it was like drinking from a fire hose. To me, having it on one page helps you wrap your brain around, "Hey, I can do this. I can learn this. Not only that, I can deliver this." You've told us a little bit about where you've come from. You've discussed what a presentation means to you, and you've really defined it since you've been talking. But point blank, Billy, now I'll ask you the question. What is a life insurance discussion, and how can an agent stop everything that they're doing? What were some of the recommendations you would make about having a discussion? Tell us what a discussion means to you. Billy McDougall: That's a tough question to answer, but I'll tell you how I formulated my process for asking good, relevant questions. First, I had to identify the areas that made sense to discuss, and we already kind of went into some of those things. There can be many more areas, and you can add that to your agenda. "What other items do you have on the table, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client, that you would like addressed here?" Mark Miletello: Right. Billy McDougall: Once I identified those, it was really a test. I sat down with multiple people, and I went through the process and they'd stop me. They say, "No, you're telling. You're not asking." I'd have to step back and think, "Okay, I don't want to lead a client in a direction. That's unethical. What I want to do is discuss a topic." You can drown them in some stuff briefly about it, but get their opinions on it. What that discussion looked like for me? Don't get me wrong, I think that Van does have the finest questions in the industry. His CDs are on repeat in my car. I've listened to them for hundreds of hours. I happen to have long commutes, so it allows me that time. That stuff just comes out in the discussion. But it was coming out just kind of randomly. I wasn't using it very effectively. The reason that I went to that one-page outline or agenda was to help make sure that I captured those specific things. Van impressed upon us a handful of things. He said, "You should be silent in the discussion. It really should be the client who does almost all the talking. Your discussions should be short. They should be 45 minutes or less." That is just scary and painful to hear. That includes taking applications. That's Van's recommendation. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Billy McDougall: That's hard for me. I'm a pretty analytical person, and that's been a real big thing for me to do. Van says, "If there's an analytical bone in your body, you need to get rid of it right now because you can't be that way." He speaks well. He has this concept of, "You know, it's your responsibility. You are the financial professional. It's your responsibility to know every little minute detail of how your product works, the implications to your clients. All that stuff is you. Now, your responsibility in helping a client understand what they need is not necessarily explaining to them every specific detail about how that product works, but instead, what that product does for them. That's dictated by the things they deem to be important." That was a shift for me, being an analytical person. Instead of digging so deeply into individual things, talking more about broader concepts. I find that 95% of my discussion with clients is broad, on large topics, broad in scope, and maybe 5% of the time we may look at an illustration. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Billy McDougall: It has probably flipped from what it was when I started in the industry. You're so focused on solutions, and you hear that in the industry. Right? "Don't be solution-focused. Work on the problem. What does the client want?" But I just didn't know how to bridge that gap, and Van's information, the way that he has interviews with clients has been super effective in helping me do that. I just had to organize a way for me to be able to have that discussion consistently with each client. Mark Miletello: Yeah, and that's why Van and I came together is that, again, two years of following him and listening to the CDs, hundreds of hours, trying to figure out a way to have a discussion and ask questions, versus ... That's a tough thing to do, and it's a hard process. It's tough to swallow, but it can be done. I think it's hard to continue on and giving the listener out there exactly how to do it, and that's why I told Van, I said, "We need to come together, form VanMark.life, and we need to show people a process where they can learn what took us two years to learn, they can learn in two weeks. They can learn in two months." Having it on a training platform so that they can walk through what you and I walked through every step of the way, but much faster, and get to that realization that how do you not talk about the product when that's what you're there to offer? The bottom line is, you're talking more, like you said, of big picture items. You're talking strategies and you're talking philosophies. Yeah, it's very effective. It's a dynamic. It is fun. You walk out of there feeling like you really are on the side of the client, instead of presenting a product. Billy, I appreciate your time. Looking back over your career and the successes you've had, can you pinpoint one area where you would tell a new agent, "Don't make this mistake." Did you have a fumble at some point along the way that you would guide a new agent or maybe a veteran agent not to make the same mistake? Billy McDougall: I think that we've all fumbled in our careers. I certainly have. I like to try and be very honest about those so that I have them as an opportunity to learn. Have a level of humility that allows you to be open to input from everyone. Someone who's a lesser agent with less experience can give you valuable input that you can implement to be successful. I'd say the biggest thing, the biggest mistake I have made is the unwillingness to change when I feel like, "Hey something's working. I've got a process. It's going to be hard for me to consider doing something else." But I certainly wasn't going to do any better, and I wasn't going to help my clients any better by continuing to do what I was doing. There is only so much time in a day. The top producers have better products, business. More commissions on the book, more premiums on the book, more people helped. They have the same amount of time in the day that we do, so listening to Van a hundred times say, "You need to stop doing what you're doing and try something different to make yourself better, and to be a better resource for your client." Stepping away and doing that is a big leap of faith, and I wish I had done it sooner because you're fearful of change. But that change makes my career so much more fun, so much more rewarding. Mark Miletello: Well, I love those late-night calls where you say, "Mark, I wrote a 2,000-a-month permanent life insurance plan." "I wrote a 300-a-month term life app, and the client begged me for it." You're having much more fun, and I think I get it, and I try to be that way. I try to take your advice. I want to always continue learning, but sometimes you think you know enough and you stop learning. I think that's your fumble is you need to be coachable, right? Even at our stage, whether you're a new agent or a veteran agent or in between, you need to be able to look around, evolve what you do. You must constantly evolve, for sure. Billy McDougall: Absolutely. Mark Miletello: Yeah, so let me ask you this. You've been in the industry for 10 years. You've seen a lot of change, and I'll put you on the spot. In this show, we like to get a professional prediction. What do you see 10 years down the road, and let's kind of keep the topic in life insurance? I know you're a multiple-line agent, and that makes you even more phenomenal for life premium that you collect. But looking down the road, what is your professional opinion and advice to the agent? What does the industry look like, and how do we fit in? Billy McDougall: I don't know the answer to that, of course. Nobody does, but my best guess would be, at a certain point, the government's going to take some of these tools away from us. These are tools that we want people to get an opportunity to have organized thought around those things, consider them, determine if they want them, and have access to them. There is some level of urgency, and it's not on the client. It's on us. It's on us as agents. We need to be as effective as we can in having quality discussions. Not pushing products, not selling products, but reaching out to as many people and giving them information so that they can make good decisions for their families. It's okay if they thoughtfully reject ideas, but it's not okay if they're never given the opportunity to do that. There are only a few times in a person's life where they're going to talk to a professional like you. Scarcity, there's going to be some of that moving forward in the next 10 years. Mark Miletello: Well said. Well said. You're right. It's a fun question. I like to hear what professionals in the industry think about our future. It's always optimistic that we're going to be needed. I love what you say, that we're going to be even more needed to have a better discussion and ... You're right. Giving the client just the opportunity to have the discussion is what most agents aren't giving their clients.I want to tell you to thank you for joining us on Where the Insurance Pros meet. You are a consummate pro. I like to think of you like my big brother, and of course, I'm older than you so I can't say that. But I like to think of you in the way that I think of him that every time I get around him, I learn something. Billy, if I can say one thing about you, that's what I would say is I learned something. Thanks for now becoming a mentor of mine. Billy McDougall: Hey, same with you, Mark. I appreciate you very much. Thank you, sir. Mark Miletello: Thank you.

Today's episode is on breaking out in a competitive marketing place. Richard Weylman is a highly sought-after marketing consultant in the financial services industry. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Announcer Where The Insurance Pros Meet, Episode 3. Richard Weylman Remember, relationships drive revenue, and if you want to grow a practice today, they want you to relate. Announcer Where The Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers; the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where The Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello Today we're going to discuss breaking out in a competitive marketing place. We have a very, very special guest on the show today. He's a highly sought-after marketing consultant in the financial services industry. He's the author of two best-selling books, Opening Closed Doors: Keys To Reaching Hard-To-Reach People, and a recent read of mine, The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace. This book has been endorsed with names like Donald J. Trump, yes, that's now President Trump, Christopher Forbes, Richard S. Bernstein, Milton Pedraza, founder of an online university, the Weylman Center for Excellence in Practice Management. By the way, his work has been described by Christopher Forbes of Forbes magazine as brilliant, and I personally agree. I've been following and learning from our guest for a decade now, and I'm honored and excited to welcome Richard C. Weylman to the show. Welcome, Richard. Richard Weylman Thank you, Mark. Great to be with you. I appreciate the privilege of being part of the programming Where The Insurance Pros Meet. Thank you. Mark Miletello And thank you. Richard, were you able to catch the Mayweather/McGregor fight? Richard Weylman Oh, absolutely. I'm a huge boxing fan. Although a lot of people thought it was going to be for show only, I thought it was very interesting. I thought that McGregor handled himself well given the fact it was way outside of his, how shall we say, his sweet spot. But it was really an interesting fight. I think that it was truly once in a lifetime. Mark Miletello Yeah, it's neat. I love the way the announcers even were questioning in the early rounds. It's funny. I like to start my show with a Mayweather jab, followed by a straight overhand right, which he implemented so well, but knock out information that will immediately help our listeners win in the arena of marketing and sales in the insurance and financial industry. Now, Richard, I know someone who paid $5,000 for a ticket. I personally paid $100 to see the fight. And others that I've talked to cannot even believe people were paying this much to see this fight. So, I think there's a lesson here. As a marketing coach, I can't help but relate this to consumers of our products. I guess the question is, regarding our products in the insurance and financial industry, products that may do the same thing but are priced differently, how is it that agents or reps stay in business unless they're the lowest price? I think you're the perfect person to ask that question too. Richard Weylman Wonderful question. It's a perfect analogy. Why would somebody pay $5,000 or $100 to be able to see that fight? In the end, there are a couple of things to always consider. Why do people, and why are people willing to pay more? If they can afford it, why are they willing to pay more than, let's say, the low-cost provider. It really gets down to a couple of very fundamental things. Number one, it's the value that they place, in the case of insurance, on the recommendations that are being made. If you do a great discovery and really uncover, hear me clearly now, the emotional issues they're dealing with, not just, "I need more life insurance to protect my family," but really be able to tell a story of delivering a death benefit, to tell the story of why disability insurance is important, to be able to tell the story from your own perspective, that engages people emotionally, and when people are emotionally engaged, the value is far beyond just the product, but it also brings value to the relationships they have. The important thing here is value is created. Cost is a function of value. If you expand the value, cost becomes a minimal or a minor issue. That's one. Two, the second piece of that puzzle is they really want to feel that their life insurance agent, or advisor, use any phrase you want, is really a resource for people like them. What do I mean by that? I mean, they want to feel comfortable. You're not just there to create a transaction, but you're there to be able to help them, more holistically, if you will, with all their financial issues. Now, you may not be cross-licensed. You may not be able to sell investments, but you certainly can be the individual that they can call when they have a financial question, and through strategic partnerships you can then place yourself in their mind as a resource to them so that they see the value you bring is not just the product, not just the platform, but the insight that you have and the specialist in your firm that you can deliver to them to help them to get their financial life in balance. Is that helpful? Mark Miletello Absolutely. I mean, I want to say, "If we could bottle that up and sell it, or give it away," but you really have. You have in everything you've done, in your books, in the classes that I've studied for 10 years, and you've done it with the Weylman Institute, so you really have bottled it up. But there are so many nuggets in what you just said. What I think, Richard, is I think people can afford what they want to afford as well. When you think about the value the promoters built in the right marketing campaign, it's numbers that they calculate, and they feel is their worth, not the cheapest that they could do it for. Right? I guess from the south I have a different perspective. I've seen a $5,000 pickup truck driving down the road with a $20,000 ATV in the back, so it reminds me that when you want something bad enough you find a way to afford it. It becomes part of your budget. Richard Weylman That's right. As I said, the cost is a function of value. I think it's important too for insurance, particularly with DOL and all the things, you know, there's all this noise out there. And people are like, "Oh, fee disclosure, or commission disclosure." Part of the problem, frankly, Mark, is that insurance agents and advisors, even on the financial advisory side, when they're asked ... and I asked an insurance agent recently who is a friend of my wife, and I said, "So, how do you get paid?" "Oh, I get paid on commission." Wow. And I ask advisors all the time, "So, what kind of a practice do you run?" "Oh, I run a fee-based practice." Well, either one of those statements, if you say you run a fee-based practice, my first question must be, "What's the fee?" If I say, "How do you get paid?" And you say, "I get paid in commission." I'll say, "So what's your commission?" My advice to everyone listening to this discussion today is very simple. If somebody says, "So, how do you get paid?" "Well, I get paid for the recommendations that I make that you accept to protect your family." Mark Miletello Love it. Absolutely. Well, you know, like I said, it seems like everything that you say, and when I'm reading your book, and listening to you, you add one little twist to things that people say that brings so much value. You're right. If someone asked me today how I got paid I would have said the same thing, because that's ... But that makes a lot of sense, and thank you for sharing that. Richard Weylman You're welcome. Mark Miletello We've kind of talked about the pinnacle of boxing, so as one of the leading minds, I believe, in professional marketing, Richard, right off the bat let's give the listener a professional tip or tool. Is there a tip or tool or a piece of technology that you can share with the listener that is either transforming your business or could help transform theirs? Richard Weylman Well, not a self-promotion. Obviously, I've been producing coursework for many years. We're a research-based consulting firm first. We've done a lot of discovery of what's going on with the consumer, and that's really our sweet spot, it is understanding how to engage the consumer, and, more importantly, convert them into a client. Our online platform The Weylman Center has allowed us now to bring 41 courses that used to be on DVD, et cetera, it's allowed me to upgrade all of that and put that in the marketplace. It's WeylmanCenter.com, and an agent or an advisor can sign up for $27 a month, have access to 41 different courses, hot links to every single market in the United States right at the local level. But setting that aside for the moment, because we've really designed that for people that really want to build a practice of distinction. I think the large picture here is this. We've just concluded doing research with 350 affluent individuals. What does that mean? Well, we have about 7,000 agents and advisors that belong to our online university. We do a lot of webinars, we have masterminds, it's a very interactive site with a lot of people, they're taking courses, they have all the tools they need to execute. I do a lot of webinars and masterminds, and they dial in. I got 70 of our members to go out and interview five of their best clients to ask four questions. Number one, "How can I get more clients like you?" Number two, "What do you look for when you engage with an advisor initially?" Number three, "How can I do a better job of explaining my platform to you?" And number four, "How important is good service?" In response to your point, as a tip, I will tell you this is what's critically important. 87% of people in this country today belong to an organization that supports what they do for a living or their special interest. Now, that could be everything from golf, and tennis, to book-reading, too, in our case, the fight game. But the bottom line is, 87% of people belong to some network that supports things they're interested in, including their occupation, business, or profession. But here's the bigger point. 71% of those people said they and people like them only want to work with an advisor that's in their network, meaning that individuals that really understand their situation. And everybody on this call, I mean, we all know this. If you all are honest with yourself, you've been asked the question. "Have you ever had clients like me, or have you ever worked with anybody like me?" They're really trying to get that discover in their own mind; do you know them, and do you know their situation. My tip for everybody is that absolutely not target small business, or not just target doctors, but to really break that down and say, "What type of small business? What type of doctor?" Because as an example in physicians, maybe 5% of physicians belong to the American Medical Association, but well over 97% belong to an organization that supports their specialty, whether it's anesthesiology, or chiropractic care, or orthopedic surgeons, because that's how they get their CE credits, and that's how they expand their learning. So that's really my tip for everybody based on our research, is that 87% of Americans belong to something that supports either their business or their interest, and by determining where your best clients, your top five or ten, what they spend their time on, the organizations they belong to, and then target those organizations where you can become a resource to the people in those organizations, that changes the game. Of course, we have our online platform, and you can sign up for $27 a month, and take the coursework, and participate in the study groups and all of that, but the most important point I want to make here is not just about our site. Let's set that aside. The key thing is, the tip: focus your marketing efforts. Being all things to all people today is a non-starter. If you do that, if you're targeting small business, you're targeting 13% of the population that's no longer involved in something. Is that helpful, Mark? Mark Miletello Absolutely. What you've shared, we usually take this opportunity to break for some industry news, and you really kind of segued right into what I've recently read; that some industry firms are not hiring experienced reps. To me, this is a complete about-face from past hiring procedures. I can honestly say, as a manager of over 20 reps and being in this industry for 27 years, and from thousands of interviews, I think I understand, and maybe perhaps agree with a little that it's difficult to hire experienced reps. But not because I don't want an experienced person, I mean, hey, I would love to bring someone on board that I don't have to teach all the little things to, but Richard, I really believe from personal experience the reason this news that I've read has come about is because it's hard to teach reps that are set in their ways new marketing skills, if you will. That's kind of what you've just ... You must be involved and plugged in. Just banging out the phone is not working as well as it was when I first started. Richard Weylman Well, that's true, and no disrespect to anybody, but I will tell you we have seen a massive shift in consumer behavior in the last, well, let's say the last ten years just to come up with a ... You know, this is '17, so let's go back to '08, and we all know what happened in '08, but we've really seen it in the last five, six, seven years. There's been a massive shift in consumer behavior, and because of that, many of the things we used to do in marketing simply just don't work anymore. Mass marketing is a good illustration. Of course, that's not to say that our best experience is not good. It's just that sometimes all of this best practice legacy experience, while it worked 15 or 20 years ago, it doesn't apply to the consumer today. The millennials are different. They're very engaged at a completely different level. They are buying life insurance. They're very engaged but at a different level. As an illustration, if you look at boomers, boomers give their money to major charities. Millennials give their money to their alma mater. That's a massive shift in consumer behavior. The point being that even individuals that are in the market today, and let me speak to the veterans for a moment. A lot of people say, "Well, veterans won't change behavior." They won't unless you really set a vision in place. If you can help yourself as an individual listening to this, if you're an experienced advisor, agent, or producer, any phrase you want to label yourself with, but if you're experienced in this business it's critically important you reset your vision for the impact you want to make, not just on your own personal income, but the impact on the lives of so many people. If you reset your vision, then a couple of other things come into play. The things that are important to change behaviors, first you've got to be open to new ideas because things have changed. Secondly, you've got to be willing to execute. And thirdly, you've got to be transparent if you're stuck. I mean, we've got several thousand experienced advisors on our online platform. We have mastermind groups, I have a whole top-of-the-table group. It's amazing how open they are. But they all have a story about, you know, "I finally got the point I was spending all my time running this thing and I realized I need to invest in services, I need to get back to doing what I love, which is bringing in new business. So, I got open to new ideas, I became willing to make some changes, and when I'm stuck I log into the masterminds and I'm moving forward." So those are the things that are important, I think, for people to think about. You must reset your vision for what you want to accomplish with your career with your business, and then be open, and willing, and transparent to make the changes. Mark Miletello Well, and they have such a leg up on a brand-new person, let's say, coming right out of school or someone with no experience in the industry. They have such a leg up, so it hurts my heart to see a veteran come on board to fail. After reading your book, Richard, The Power of Why I kind of felt it's possible a veteran in the industry could use the advice I think your layout so well in your book. I love even, and I've told you this before, what I really appreciated is by page seven you answered this why question, whereas I believe many others that I've read and listened to don't even know what the why question is, and that's "Why are we failing? Why do customers do business with us? Why are we not performing like others in the field?" And you answer to why companies or reps are excelling while others might not, is the message and deliver from their customers perspective. The veterans especially are sometimes stuck in the only sales process they know, which is selling a product, presenting a product, talking about their fee, their commission like you said earlier. I think they fail in my eyes, mainly from a lack of understanding your book The Power of Why. And just personally here recently, and I didn't mean to kind of get into this, but over the last three years as a leading life insurance agent in one of the largest companies and oldest companies in the nation I kind of felt clients weren't accepting things that they had did in the past, and I was not getting the same results. And little by little I saw this transition, Richard. I really think after reading your book I finally pinpointed that I'm not delivering from a customer's perspective. As a personal story, I've thrown out everything that I know in my life insurance, I call it, presentations, and I've changed to a new life insurance discussion that is centered around the customer. And I've got to tell you, my sales have increased tenfold over the last, just three to four months by implementing this new concept. But it's completely based on what you said right at the beginning of this book, of delivering from a customer's perspective. I think veterans have the hardest time accepting that. That's from personal experience, but… Richard Weylman Well, you're exactly right. Just to piggyback on that for a minute, John Wooden, who is America's basketball player I guess is the way he would be described, and just something he said many years ago, one of his great quotes, and I don't know if I'll get it exactly right, but it'll be close, and that is that "You learn the most when you think you know it all." I think that's so important today, and we've seen this massive shift in consumer behavior. To your point listen, information is ubiquitous, opportunity ... I mean, gosh, you want to buy life insurance? Type it in your computer and pull it up on the screen. Want to do a financial plan? You'll get 2 million links. So, the truth of the matter is that the consumer already has all the power. They've got all kinds of places they can get information, and they can source things, they can buy things. If you don't explain your value from their perspective, meaning, "This is what it means to you, and the benefit to you is ... " Then there's a complete disconnect. Let me put it this way. If you are there trying to convince them to buy as opposed to explaining the value you deliver, people are rejecting convincing. What they want to know is, "How is this recommendation going to solve my problem or address the issue I want to get handled?" So, when you make a recommendation, whatever it might be, "I think that these are the two recommendations I want to make. You've got two options here Mr. and Mrs. Wilson. Here's the first one. The first one is you could buy this particular product, and let me tell you what this will mean for you." And then explain what they will accomplish with that. Then, go to the second piece, "And the benefit to you is ... " Same thing when you make the second recommendation. When you make that ... "And here's what this will do for you. And the benefit to you is ... " People want to know how does your recommendation apply. That's the issue they deal with. When I did the research for the book and we surveyed and talked to thousands of people, the thing that people kept saying is, "I'm sick and tired of people trying to convince me without understanding they need to tell me how it applies to my issue. I want to know how it applies. What's the application? If they don't want to give me how it applies, I'm just going to find somewhere else to buy whatever that product might be." That's everything from life insurance all the way out to you name it. I'll give you an example. You go to Amazon or Walmart online, and no matter what product you click on, it always tells you, "What this means to you is ... And this is what it'll do for you." Because both of those firms have realized if they can articulate application to whatever it is that individual is attempting to do, people will buy it. Mark Miletello Well, perfectly said. That's why I love when you accepted coming on this show because I knew I would get that right there. It's something that, I'm still in the field as a producer, as a manager, as a recruiter, I'm still in the field, and I can tell you that's where I was going with it, is that you must get to the emotional issue as you said earlier and just talking about products, we have to move away from products, because products are everywhere. I'm going to get into some rapid-fire questions here for you. I want to talk professional strategy. Now, Richard, I've mentored under you, like I've said, for a decade now. I've read your books, articles, your email messages, which people should sign up for, which I very much enjoy the little short articles you put out on your blogs. Richard Weylman Thank you. Mark Miletello You have a tremendous and endearing story of where you've come from to where you are now. Now, not to compare it all, Richard, but I do feel like I'm also that guy that can say, "If I can do it then anyone can." And you have shown by a successful career that, no matter what the odds, it can be done. Success is obtainable. So maybe you can share with the listeners your professional strategy of how you succeeded? That would be something we'd like to hear. Richard Weylman Well, I thank you, Mark, and I'll be brief here. But I was an orphan, my mother died when I was five, my dad died when I was six, and my father had no insurance. I went through all his ... He was a journal. He wrote down everything. I could tell you what he had for lunch on May 5th, 1942. He just wrote everything down. I've gone back through all his old diaries, logs, journals. And there was never a mention of life insurance, but again, it wasn't a topic back in the 40s and even in the 50s like it is today. So as a result, we had no insurance. My brother and I and my sister were split up and lived in foster homes. I lived in 19 foster homes, went to 11 different schools. We didn't get back together until we were in our mid-20s. But here's the thing that ... And people say, "Oh, that must have been tough." Every one of you that are listening to this has a story you can tell. You might have been in a loving, nurturing home, but at the same time, you had that entrepreneurial fire burning in your belly, and you had to overcome obstacles to even be on this call today, or listening to this podcast. It's not that the story is important. What's important is what do you do about it? So, from a professional perspective, I will tell you, I read many years ago a scripture that said, "People without vision perish." And I mentioned this earlier about the importance of vision. From a strategic perspective, as a professional, the most important thing, even if it's your first day in the business or your 25th year in the business, you really need to have a vision for what you want to be in the marketplace. I mean, if you look at the big companies that are doing extraordinarily well, like, oh gosh, pick some, Ford, I mean, we could make a long list here, they all have reset. They've recovered from a lot of dark days, perhaps, in their industry because the CEO came in and reset the vision. "Here's who we're going to be in the marketplace. This is who we aspire to be. This is what's going to put us on track." Now, why is this important? Well, from a strategic perspective, the first step, get your vision clear. What do you want to be in the marketplace? Not a mission, but a vision statement. What do you want to be in the marketplace? Secondly, then you will make decisions about the right strategy to fulfill the vision. Now, let me flip that around. If you don't have a clear picture of the type of practice you want to build, the kind of impact you want to have on your community, the type of agency, perhaps, that you want to build if you're in a leadership role. If you don't have a clear vision, no amount of strategy in the world is going to save you, because you'll try this, and, "I'll try that, and I'll try this for six months." So, what happens is, if you have a vision in place then you are far better at selecting the right strategies to make that vision a reality. That's the key. From a professional perspective, I have a very clear vision. I'll just tell you what it was. Living in a foster home, I made up my mind that I was never going to live in basements and attics again, and my vision was that I was going to be able to live in some of the homes that I had seen when I was shoveling snow, and delivering papers, and all of the things I did when I was a young guy coming up, and I said, "Someday I'm going to live in a house where I don't have to live in a basement. I'm going to have a house of my dreams." That was my vision early in my life when I was like 11 years old. So, I became a student of that lifestyle, and I began to study the affluent. I read all the books on social graces. I mean, which silverware to use, I mean, incredible, Julia Child's books, I've read all those books because I wanted to learn how I could live in that lifestyle having never been raised in that lifestyle. Then, of course, as I got into the business I began to learn the things that were necessary to be effective in business, having a very clear picture of what my market was, meaning, "Who did I want to do business with?" Secondly, "How could I engage them at a deep level?" Thirdly, "How can I set myself apart in the ways that our product made a difference?" I was in the automotive industry, I was in the industrial laundry industry, I was in the publication industry, many other things, but I always looked at it from that standpoint: "Who's my customer? How can I bring myself and our product to market in a way that's set apart from others, and how can I engage people for the long-term, so it wasn't just a transaction, but it was a relationship?" So, I read everything I could. I spent a lot of time on strategy. So, to recap, get your vision clear. That's the crystal clear important point. Who do you want to be in the marketplace? Secondly, start selecting strategies to help you identify markets, strategies to help you bring your product to market in a way that's distinct. Mark mentioned that. Meaning what? Articulate from the, let's say, customer, or client, or prospect's perspective. Then, thirdly, it dawned on me very early, and by the way, our research now proves this out, that service was meaningless to people. In our country, if you go to McDonald's and the fries are cold, I don't know what ... Let's say they're $1. You can take them right back in and they'll replace them. So, for us to have somebody buy a life insurance policy and then tell them, you know, "We'll take your call when you call, or we're going to provide you service from time-to-time during the year," I don't know how- Mark Miletello That's a minimum standard. Richard Weylman Yeah. I mean, how magnanimous of us. What we've found out is people today are not interested in good service. That's a minimum standard. What they're looking for is an elevated experience. That means you know their name, you record the things they're passionate about. You send special notes on special days, "Happy anniversary. Another successful year as a policyholder." Not just a birthday card that your policy is going to cost more if you don't buy tomorrow. The important thing is, if you get your vision right, start setting the strategies in place about the market you want, the products you're going to deliver, how you're going to set yourself apart, and then, once they're a client, how you can turn them into delighted advocates. Mark Miletello Well, thank you. I'm taking notes as we're on this show because I love it. But I do want to say thank you for sharing your personal story. You're right. We all have our personal story and our challenges and the things ... I think I just learned something, and that was, "I always said," and I even wrote it in a book myself, "that fear was my motivator because I did come from means where I had to take care of myself at an early age." I used to think that it was fear, but I think now that you say it in that light, maybe it was the vision of wanting something better. So maybe that was my motivator more so than the fear itself of living like that. I know from knowing you that you've done a lot of work in the field with large corporations with advisors and, more importantly, their customers, and you've surveyed and met. I think you can answer this question better than anyone, which is, Richard, what would you say that people today want from an advisor in the field of insurance or related financial services, what do consumers want today from their advisor? Richard Weylman Mark, that's a great question. What do people really want today? Well, the truth of the matter is, what they really don't want, first, are they don't want somebody that's transitionally oriented. People today want a relationship. When you look at the industry, you must realize that relationships drive revenue. So, what do people want? Number one, they want personalization and humanization. They want to be remembered. They want to have memorable experiences. A lot of people talk about your insurance portfolio. Well, how about your portfolio of memories with my agent; about the things he or she did to really help me to get my financial life in balance, or to protect my family, or to educate my children? When you think about it from that perspective, relationships drive revenue. If you personalize and humanize, that's what they're looking for. I mentioned earlier they want you to be a financial resource. It doesn't mean you have to have all the answers, but it does mean that you need to pay attention to the specialists that work in your agency or in your firm or in your company that you can plug people into so that they really realize that when they have a question, that you're not just a custodian of their money or a seller of life insurance, but you're the guy or gal they can call when they have a financial question, because it'll open doors of opportunity, whether it be for an annuity, whether it be for an investment, or whether it be for an additional life insurance policy. It's important for us to think along that line. Remember, relationships drive revenue. If you want to grow a practice today, people want to have a relationship ... What's the keyword? They want you to relate. Think about if you took Latin. What's the core? Mark Miletello I agree. I'll tell you, it just happened this past month where I still have a property casualty agency as well, and we've taken our largest increase in three or four years. I've had one client consider leaving because of the relationships that you build through everything ... Not sending a Christmas card with the whole office name stamped on it where you can tell it's a computer-generated thing, it's a relationship. So, I think you're spot-on with that, and I try to teach that to my own team and to the listeners out there that you better find a way to build those relationships differently than you have in the past. I think that's where you're going with it. Richard Weylman You're exactly right. That's what the challenge is, that people get focused on the transaction. But we know that there are lots of psychological needs people have. One is meaning and significance. They want to know that they're meaningful to you. Secondly, they want emotional security, not just economic. They need to feel comfortable they can talk to you about their fear, their uncertainty, and their doubt. So, what that means is you've got to ask questions that allow them, gives them permission to engage. "What are three things you're most concerned about in terms of your financial future? If you were thinking about your grandchildren today, Mr. and Mrs. Wilson, what are three things you want to make sure happens in their life after you are out of the picture?" These are the kinds of things that people want to talk about, but if you don't give them permission to talk about their fear, uncertainty, and doubt, if you don't engage with them at a deep level, then it's all transactional, and they'll have those concerns, but they won't bring them up. I'll give you a good example. I was in a city recently, got on the elevator with a couple. The agent was very kind, "Thank you very much. Appreciate it." Now, he should have gotten on the elevator and ridden down to the lobby with them. You never put them on the elevator and say, "Thank you very much." But this couple got on, he dusted them, "Thank you very much. We'll talk to you in six months or so." Now, we're going down the elevator. We were on the 23rd or 24th floor, something like that, and she turns to him and said, "Honey, why didn't you bring up what we want to do with the grandkids?" And his response was, "Oh, he's not interested in stuff like that." Now, my take was simply this, "How did that agent get in a position where they don't think he's interested? Is it because he's about the ... " I don't know, and obviously, that was a situation, but for the, shall we say, that couple, particularly the guy to have that mindset ... I'd say he was probably in his early 70s, late 60s, but it just reinforced to me how we must engage people at a far deeper level than just the surface transaction, taking care of the need now. We've all seen the statistics. Most people buy insurance from somebody else because they never hear from there, shall we say, the existing agent again, or somebody sells a policy and then never revisits them for additional policies. We've all seen those statistics, but the truth of the matter is they're very real because there is not a lot of relationship building that goes on that ... engaging people, sending them an article of interest. Setting up a Google Alert account. I mean, if you've got a client and you're working in the industry like chiropractors, and you live in Dayton, Ohio, well, just go on Google Alert. Go to Google, type in "alert", it comes right up. It's free. You can put "chiropractors, Miami Valley" which is where Dayton is. Great. Overnight, the internet will search, Google will search, and anything that gets published about chiropractors in Ohio or Miami Valley will show up in your inbox in the morning. That's the kind of thing you just forward onto your clients and say, "Hey, I know we haven't gotten together in four or five months, but I saw this article, thought you might be interested in it." What does that say? "I'm interested in you as a person, not just your money or that life insurance transaction." Those are the ways you build relationships. You mentioned Christmas or holiday cards. Those are all good. But why don't we send Thanksgiving cards, because nobody else does? "So thankful to have you as a client. Enjoy Thanksgiving." How about New Year's cards? "While we're celebrating the New Year, we're looking forward to another wonderful year as clients of ours." How about 4th July cards? "While we're celebrating our companies, independence knowing we're working hard here to make sure that you always can achieve financial independence." Those are the things that stick out in people's minds. Find out the month they started their business or got their job and send them a "Happy anniversary for another successful year on the job or in the business." You're going to be the only one that does that, but believe you me, that alone will help you stand out and say to them, you're about them, you're not just about that which it is that they've transacted with you. Mark Miletello Good tip. Richard Weylman Is that helpful? Mark Miletello Oh, that's a great tip. That's a great tip. My little addition to that would be if you're going to consider the card mailing, find out their kids' ages and send their kids birthday cards. I don't want to grow another year, and I don't want as much celebrating, but if you send my kids something, that's special and thoughtful. Now, Richard, we've talked about 10 years ago. So, I want to ask you a professional prediction. Let's say the year is 2027. What will the financial services industry maybe look like, and how do we fit in from a marketing perspective? Richard Weylman Well, that is a wonderful question. The reason it's wonderful is that I can remember 10 years back, and everybody was concerned, "Well, we've got trades, we've got all of this, so you can buy insurance online," and everything. "Oh, the insurance industry's going away. I mean, it's all but over." And people were like, "Well, that's it. The [inaudible 00:38:03. Start closing agencies here because consumers aren't going to go there. They're just going to buy the low-cost provider." But how shocked ... I mean, we could go back 20 years, go back to 1997 when the internet was first coming alive and eTrades were ... everybody's like, "That's the end. The warehouses are going out of business. Everybody's going to go to these $8 trades and that's going to be the end of this business." And yet, when you look at the numbers it's exactly the other way around. I'll give you a good example. You look at Betterment, which everybody's like, "Oh my God. A new way of investing." Yet, they're hiring advisors like crazy to work in their call centers because people want to call in to get advice even though supposedly it's more of a robot-advising platform. I mean, just an interesting piece. So, the year is, let's say it's 2027, just for our conversation. There's no question that relationships are going to still drive revenue. I know people are like, "Oh my God." But the millennials, I will tell you that cheaper rates and lower fees are always going to be in the marketplace, but what people forget, boomers are dying, and those who inherit even medium sums, they want guidance, personal connection. So, consumers are going to continue to migrate to those who can provide guidance and direction. Now, does that mean that millennials are going to be coming to everybody's office like, say, boomers do today? Or are they going to want a big conference room? Likely not as much. They tend to like to operate in their own "personal space". So, I think there's going to be a lot more, shall we say, out of the office time meeting with people that we see today. I do think the office model will change. I think we're going to see a lot of people that are going to be on a relational side of the business, really reaching out in the community establishing relationships with, let's say millennials, who will, of course, be getting older by that time, and they'll have children, and that will be a whole other issue for individuals in terms of protecting their assets, protecting their children's education, and taking care of the money that they've inherited that have come into their life. So, you're going to see a shift, I believe, in the way we do business. What I mean by that is there's going to be more time out of the office engaging with people in their personal space because that's how millennials like to operate. They like to operate on Skype. They want to operate on LinkedIn. And there's going to be another technology that'll come that we're not even aware of in the next 10 years. You know, we got Facebook, we got LinkedIn, and we've got Skype, but even, there's another one coming. You can pretty much bank on it given the mobile society we live in. I can tell you now, just think about how many times you FaceTime. What I have found is a lot of my clients today, they want to FaceTime with me if they're on their cellphones, which is fine. I think you'll see more of that. There's going to be more technology bringing us closer together, but people are going to want that guidance, they're going to want that direction, and that's what they're going to migrate to because, A, what they inherit, B, because millennials love to personalize, i.e. SnapChat, i.e. Instagram. They like humanization, i.e. SnapChat, i.e. Instagram. So, what that tells us is in 10 years I think we're going to see relationships drive revenue at an even higher level because people are going to be very networked, people are going to work only with advisors that are in their network and that work with people like them, and word of mouth is going to be a tremendous way to grow your business. Mark Miletello Well, I see that as exciting, but I also see it as scary for those that don't know technology or have the ability to do that. Technology, I think ... I guess my question, and I know your answer, but I'm going to ask anyway, I mean, I guess you could keep those ... In fact, the relationships may even be tighter by using these technologies, right? Richard Weylman Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think about just our client base. For years, I mean, we did conference calls. I do, well, even the people that are members of our online university, the Weylman Center, same thing. I mean, when I first launched it a few years ago I didn't do anywhere near the webinars that I do now, and people plugin. They're involved in those. We do a lot of Skype with clients. As I said, we use FaceTime now more on calls than ever before. People want that personal connection, and if you can take- Mark Miletello And convenience. Yep, it's convenient too. Richard Weylman Correct. It's convenience, it gives you a personal connection. You don't have to sit there in a room to have a connection given all the technology that's available today. I mean, we have six offices worldwide. I mean, we all Skype in. We're not all in the same location. But the advantage is we still have that personal connection, and the reason we're able to have it is that of technology. Anybody that's in this business today, insurance or advisory, absolutely, I don't care if you're 65 years old and say, "I don't use a computer." You need to use a computer if you intend to be in the business another five years because your clients are going to demand it. Mark Miletello Oh, perfect. Some other professional recommendations before we get to the close, Richard? Give me one book that I'm going to read in the next few weeks or a month, and one person that I should follow that you follow that has been instrumental in your career. Richard Weylman Oh, great question. Well, I read a lot. I think the book that had the greatest impact on me is the Book of Proverbs. That's not a religious statement. That's in the Old Testament. You can buy that separately, and there are lots of versions of it. But it was authored by King Solomon. And boy, that is really ... I read that very early on. I probably read it ... I have no idea, 20 times likely, every few years I read it again, because it gives real, practical advice that will help lead you to better decisions with greater confidence. Can I give you just one quick example? Mark Miletello Please, yeah. Richard Weylman I had a young guy, and he had asked me a similar question. Anyhow, I said, "Well, I remember reading ... " He was starting a business and had an opportunity, got married and they wanted to buy a new house. He came to me and he said, "Do you think I ought to do this?" Or whatever. He's like two years in the business. And his business was doing fine. I said, "Well, I remember reading a proverb that says, "Build your business before you build your house." And he just looked at me and he said, "Boy, that's great advice." And six months later his business took a real downturn. There was a regulation passed, and boy he slugged it. He had a tough two years. And now he's roared back and has built a massive business, and he and his wife have built a beautiful house in Hawaii. What's the message? Sometimes just getting that, you know there's a proverb that says, "In a multitude of counselor’s mistakes are avoided." And what that really did for him, just by asking me that question, he just kind of gave me that look. Now, that's one case. Someone else might say, "Well, forget that. I'm still going to build the house or buy the house. That's up to you. But what I found in the Book of Proverbs, it just gives you a real sense of reasoning, and it helps you make better decisions, so that would be one thing I would do. The other thing that I, in terms of who I follow, there's a lot of different people that I look to see how their mind works. Mark Miletello Well, and the reason I ask you this is with all this information and technology it's getting harder for us out in the field to figure out who is the real deal. You know what I mean? There's a lot of noise out there. So that's why I point that question at you. You don't have to give one. You can give several. But I think it's getting harder to follow the people that are really going to make differences in our careers. Richard Weylman Yes, that exactly right. And the second book I'd mention, by the way, was to read anything by John Wooden and his quotes. They're very sage advice. He was an incredible basketball coach, and this we all know, and player. But I think the person that I tend ... I used to follow Mark Cuban a lot. I don't anymore. What I've found is that Richard Branson has an unusual view of things. They're always positive, but his way of expressing himself or solving a problem is quite good. You can follow him on LinkedIn, and then you can set up a Google Alert account as I have for Richard Branson, so anything that happens in the Virgin business world I get notifications of. A good example, during the hurricane he evacuated all his guests from Necker Island, that's his private island in the Bahamas, but he stayed because his staff was staying, and he really felt like the best way to support them was to be there with them. And then he gave a long dissertation about why. Here's what struck me. The thing about him, he's always focused on purpose, not pressure. Everything he talks about is based on the purpose that he sees for the business and for himself. He doesn't talk about he's under pressure to do anything. And you could say, "Well, he's worth $1 billion." That's not the point. If you go back to his early history, that was one. The other one that I do a lot of reading on is Winston Churchill. My intent next year as soon as they open, I'm going to go to Oxford for six weeks to take a comprehensive course on the life of Winston Churchill. I go to England just about every year now to speak and all over Europe. I always go down to Chartwell, Winston Churchill's home in the country. I've read everything on Churchill, I've spent literally days at his home there. Churchill was a lot like Branson. He saw things. He was a curmudgeon, but he always saw things from the positive light, and more importantly, the way he made decisions was always on purpose too. So those are two people that I could mention to you. If that's helpful? Mark Miletello It very much is, and, Richard, as I said earlier, it's an honor to have you as one of the very first guests on Where The Insurance Pros Meet. We're so busy planning and marketing for today and tomorrow we can't even begin to look years out in the future; things we need to do now, technologies and techniques that we need to embrace so that not only will we be relevant in the future, but also thrive in the future. I feel we must take your advice to prepare for the future that's ever-changing as well as a tomorrow that's changing as we speak. I really hope the listeners reach out and subscribe to your emails and connect with you like I have. I hope they read your book, because it will change, I think, the perspective by just a small change in the dial, just enough to get it when you're thinking about how to brand maybe, or market, or present yourself and your company moving forward, I believe, in a world of complete commoditization. Richard, again, I want to thank you. Richard, tell us, what's the best way to connect and follow you. Richard Weylman Okay, just a couple of things. For those of you that want to subscribe, just go to ... I'll just make it very easy. Go to RichardWeylman.com, very simple, and you can enroll in my performance tip, and that comes out every week as Mark illustrated. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn because I do post a little ... It's very short. It's not like an article. It's just kind of an action item for the week. I post it there every week if that'd be helpful for you. A couple of other things really quick, when you go to RichardWeylman.com, if you just make a note of this, you'll see where it says, "Richard's Recent Videos" right on the homepage. We have just posted, and it will remain there for quite a long period of time, so we have just posted the findings from those 350 face-to-face interviews that members of our online university did with their clients. They're there in a strategic format. You'll see it. It's basically how to overcome the challenges. It's a six-minute video. Watch that video, because it will help bring some of what we talked about today to light for you. Then, the final point I would say just simply, like I say, connect with me on LinkedIn, certainly connect with me ... go to RichardWeylman.com and sign up for my weekly little tip that I send out. Then, also, if you're interested in really building a practice of distinction, finding your best markets, setting yourself apart in the marketplace, elevating the client experience, you can just go to WeylmanCenter.com. There's a little tour you can take there. It'll take you to a homepage. You'll see how our online university is set up, and you can sign up for $27 a month. That's month-to-month. We don't make you sign any contracts, et cetera. We've got about 7,000 advisors that are on there every month with us. Then, you'll get masterminds, and you get webinar notifications, et cetera as part of your membership. Mark, thank you for the time today. It's been a blessing to be with you. Mark Miletello Well, very good, very good, and highly recommended. If you like what you hear on this show, go to iTunes, rate it and review it. It'll help others find us. As your host of Where The Insurance Pros Meet, you can follow me at MarkMiletello.com.  

Today’s episode is on retirement income solutions. Tom Henga is a retirement income specialist. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio.

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Where the Insurance Pros Meet, Episode 2.

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If you really want to get good, I mean, you want to be the best in the business, you've got to train a little bit every single day just like the pro football players do.

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Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top one percent producer, manager, and your host of "Where the Insurance Pros Meet".

Mark Miletello

Today we're going to discuss retirement income solutions. We have on the show with us the retirement income specialist himself. He's the author of four best sellers, "Paychecks and PlayChecks", "Retirement Income Masters", "Paycheck and Playchecks for Canadians", and most recently, "Don't Worry Be Happy: Seven Steps to Retirement Security, which has played on public television to over 72 million homes in the US and Canada. Our guest specializes in creating, what I love, is simple and powerful retirement solutions based on math and science and not opinions. I've seen him speak myself. He's exciting. You should look him up. He speaks to businesses, government organizations, professional associations, financial professionals, and more importantly, clients across the globe. The road warrior himself, Tom Hegna. Welcome to the show, Tom.

Tom Hegna

Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Mark Miletello

Well, Tom, NFL season is here. I'm excited. The pros are practiced, rehearsed, the butterflies are gone. It's game time. Tom, congratulations, and thanks for being a leader, a voice, and a consummate professional in the insurance industry; and is, really, the leading speaker and coach in the financial services industry. So, thanks for coming to the show. Can you give us a kickoff of this show with a professional tip or advice just to start us off and get this game going?

Tom Hegna

Sure. I mean, since you're talking about pro football, let me ask you a question. How often do they train do you think? Do they train once a quarter? Once every six months? A couple of times a year? They train every single day. Sometimes they do doubles. Sometimes they do triples. What people don't understand is that the top producers in any business, but let's just say pro football, they're constantly training. You know what else, they've got a coach. Why would they need a coach? They're the best players in the world. Because the coach sees things they don't. The coach can come up with a game plan. And I think what both you and I do is we focus on training and coaching. Why do people in our industry think that they don't need to train every single day? And, you know, if you or I were training or coaching them, even for 10 or 15 minutes every day, imagine how much better they would be in three months, six months, nine months. And so, I guess that would be my opening pitch, is that if you really want to get good, I mean, you want to be the best in the business, you've got to train a little bit every single day just like the pro football players do.

Mark Miletello

You know, I'm even more excited now because you're spot on. As a producer, as an agent, sometimes we're out there by ourselves; and here I am, 27 years into my career, and I still have a coach. I still have a mentor. I still look for more knowledge. So, you're exactly right, and that's the type of stuff I knew we were going to get right off the bat from you. Right now, let's break for industry news. There's no secret, the Department of Labor rulings are dominating the news in the insurance and financial services stadium. Tom, help us out. How do you think the industry will or will not change with these Department of Labor rulings?

Tom Hegna

Well, you know, it's kind of interesting, I was just on a nationwide debate last week with Knute Rothstead. He's the co-founder of the fiduciary standard, and he debated for the ruling. I debated against it. And I'd encourage your listeners to listen to it. It's free. They can go to apviewpoint.com and register for free and it's in there, or just look up any of my social media. I've got the recordings posted, but I encourage them to listen to it. But to your question, I would say this. I think some good things will come out of it. We all know there were some bad products out there. We all know there were some bad people out there. But what I tried to say in the debate is, you know, Bernie Madoff was a fiduciary, but I don't go around saying all the fiduciaries are Bernie Madoff, and I don't have anything wrong with fiduciaries. But my point in the debate is, right now, it's legal in all 50 states to do business with a fiduciary. So, if you really want a fiduciary, guess what? You can do business with one, but not everybody's choosing that. I said this, "If fiduciaries were so good at what they did, if they were so good, guess what, they'd put everybody else out of business." How could State Farm do what they do? How could New York Life do what they do? How could American National do what they do? If fiduciaries are so good, everybody would have to become a fiduciary, or they'd go out of business. But here's the truth, the truth is they aren't always that great. There are fiduciaries who are not taking longevity risk off the table. There are fiduciaries who are not taking long-term care risk off the table. There are fiduciaries who aren't using life insurance to leverage wealth transfer to children and grandchildren. So, my question to them is how can you be doing what's in the best interest of your clients if you're not using annuities, life insurance, and long-term care? So, that is on their side. But on our side, I would say this, I think we are going to see products, maybe a little more leveling of the commission, which I don't think is bad. I don't think there should be necessarily you make more commission on that versus this, and then you're tilted to recommend that over that. I think that's one of the good things that will come out of this rule is that companies are going to really must look at what is in the best interests of their clients? Now I don't agree that just a fiduciary puts their best interests. I see insurance professionals or financial professionals all over the country, every day, who are putting their client's best interests first; but I think there will be some good things that will come out of it as well.

Mark Miletello

Well, the Department of Labor ruling, I mean, I agree. I think that protecting clients ultimately is the goal, and that's more important than anything, but there is a balance, and I think that's the issue that you're talking about. We must find the balance, right?

Tom Hegna

Right. And what I proposed, at the end, instead of just beating up on my opponent or just trying to trash the DOL rule, what I tried to propose was a fiduciary process. You see I think the argument about fees versus commission, that's ridiculous. I can show you plenty of places where a commission is better for a client, and they can show you plenty of places where a fee is better. So, let's just agree that the fee commission argument just depends on the client. That's a ridiculous rule. But, let's also agree that nobody knows what's going to be the best. Here's the problem with the fiduciaries. It's the best interest. Did you know that if you go to five different fiduciaries, give them your exact same set of circumstances, you will get five different courses of actions proposed?

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Exactly.

Tom Hegna

All in your best interests? I mean, that doesn't even make sense. How could five different people give five different solutions if this is in my best interest? So, what I say is let's agree that nobody knows what's going to be the best, all right? And what math and science do is when you get into a situation where you don't know what's going to be the best, there are so many variables, what math and science look for is the optimal way to do it. And all optimal means is this will be the best more often than anything else will be the best and it'll never be the worst. So, what I propose and what I talk about all the time, I don't talk about the best way to retire, because nobody knows what's the best way to retire. I talk about the optimal way. And so what I proposed at the end of the debate is something that I think both sides could agree on. What if we had a fiduciary process that said step number one you got to have a plan, and it's got to be in writing, and you need to work with a financial professional, and it needs to be reviewed regularly. That'd be step one. Step two, why don't we insist that they cover their basic living expenses with guaranteed lifetime income. That's what all the PhDs who study retirement say you should do. And then what if we said for the rest of the portfolio you optimize that to protect yourself against inflation. Or, if you weren't in the securities business, you could ladder their income products, so they could have one that starts at age 60, one that starts at age 65, one that starts at age 70; but the key is to give them increasing income for the rest of their life. What if we taught our clients how to maximize their social security benefits? See social security's the largest retirement asset most people have. What if we said that no retirement plan is complete without a plan for long-term care and that we were required to discuss a long-term care plan with the people. And then what if we used life insurance as the most efficient way to pass wealth. That if they have a life insurance policy for the kids, they could spend more of their money in retirement. I said now that is a process that would be based in math and science that, whether you are a fiduciary or non-fiduciary, whether you sell annuities or manage money, or you pay fees or commissions couldn't we agree that that would be a powerful process that would be in the client's best interest, and then we can just disagree. To me, that's the solution.

Mark Miletello

Wow. And thanks for being a voice for our industry. We need a voice right now more than ever, and really, you're a voice for the client as well. As I've read and studied and followed you, the sound advice you give is on behalf of the client and, like you said, the little things, how commissions are paid, that's the little things. Now giving more than 5,000 speeches and seminars and really influencing hundreds of thousands of advisors out there, let's talk about you. Let's talk about Tom Hegna himself. Can you tell us in your own words how you arrived at the point where you are today?

Tom Hegna

Well, look, I'm driven right now by one thing. There are 78 million baby boomers out there who are retiring. They're either in retirement or close to retirement. And tens of millions of them are going to run out of money if we don't get to them first. And so, I'm really driven by the fact that I can't get in front of 78 million people, but you know what? You can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. They can get in front of a 1,000. So, if I can get in front of 300, 500 thousand advisors, a million advisors, through the leverage of their work, we can get in front of most of these 78 million. Look, most people won't do everything they're supposed to, but we can fix a lot of them. I've been in the business for over 30 years. I've learned a lot in that time. When I was at New York Life, I was kind of in charge of their retirement income push, and so I found out things I never knew. Mortality credits. Longevity credits. I learned things about longevity risk. I learned things about why guaranteed income is so important. And happiness in retirement. See, I talk to people all the time. You know, it's one thing to retire optimal or not optimal, but don't you want to be happy in retirement; because I can show people how they can be happy in retirement. And happiness in retirement is tied almost 100% to guaranteed lifetime income, and so I can demonstrate that to them. I can show them all the research and all the articles that have studied it. And so that's kind of what gets me up in the morning is I'm trying to help 78 million baby boomers. I can't get to all of them, but I can get a bunch of advisors and try to help them help their clients.

Mark Miletello

Well, perfectly said. I'm looking at the parallels in our history. First, thank you for your service in the army, six years’ service. I had six years’ service in the army, as well, before I started my career, during my career. But I was an agent, I was a producer, and nine years ago I went into management. I had won a lot of the awards that I set out to and had the success that I wanted to have as a producer. I think at a point I wanted to touch more people, as well. I found that my passion and heart is helping clients with what you call miracles, selling life insurance, which I totally agree with that in your book. But what I wanted to do was touch more lives, just like you said. And going into management, I felt like building 20, 30, 40 agents, we could touch more lives and get the message out there. I love the fact that you've taken it even additional, and that's, of course, the reason for this podcast, having a place where we can touch more people, help more people through the things that you talk about and teach in securing and doing the right things. I told you right before we started to show that I read your book a third time Monday on a plane. I couldn't put it down until I got to St. Louis and I must tell you, it just meant something totally different to me at this point in my career. So, we talked about the industry, the news, we talked a little bit about you, and congratulations on all the accomplishments you've had, and the best sellers that you've had. Let's talk a little bit about clients. What is the number one piece of advice, Tom, that you would give to retirees today?

Tom Hegna

Well, that they've got to have a plan to retire. See, most people don't have a plan. And again, that plan should include some very simple things. They should make sure that their basic living expenses are covered with guaranteed lifetime income so that no matter what happens to the market or no matter what happens to interest rates, they will at least have their basic living expenses covered. Then they got to have a plan for inflation because guaranteed lifetime income, if you just buy one, unless you buy inflation protection on it, it's going to stay the same, and over time prices go up. So, you've got to have a plan for inflation and I leave that up to the advisor. They can recommend a market-based solution of stocks or mutual funds, commodities, real estate, that's fine, or you can ladder your guaranteed products. That's what I've done. I've got eleven of them and I've got them starting at different ages, and so I will have increasing income for the rest of my life. You've got to have a plan to protect yourself against inflation, and then you've got to have a plan to protect yourself against the risk of long-term care. That's probably, after longevity risk, that's the other biggest risk. Seventy-two percent of all people will need to have a plan for long-term care. They should maximize their social security benefits. That's the largest retirement asset that most of them have and, in general, just very simple, the breadwinner should delay. So, if you've got a husband or wife, and the husband made more money than the wife, the wife can take her benefits early if she wants to, but the husband should wait until 70 because his check covers both lives. That's why the breadwinner should delay. And then use your home equity wisely. There are all kinds of new things like reverse mortgage market. You can sell your home and capture capital gains tax breaks, and so use your home equity wisely. Then I always say leave life insurance to your kids for pennies on the dollar, and then just go out and spend your money and have fun in retirement. So, I talk a lot about how to have fun in retirement, how to never run out of money in retirement, and how to not have to go to a nursing home so you get to stay in your house for the rest of your life because you have a plan. And so, those are the concepts that I talk with retirees.

Mark Miletello

Well, I've been training based on a lot of what you've said, and I've also been following and mentoring with Van Mueller who, by the way, speaks very highly of you.

Tom Hegna

Dan's a great guy. We go way back.

Mark Miletello

Absolutely. And so, I've been rolling out to the agents that I'm mentoring and acronym, TVFIL, taxes, volatility, fees, inflation, and longevity. In your book, Paychecks, and Playchecks, you say the greatest threat to retirees is longevity. It's a multiplier of the rest. Can you expound on that?

Tom Hegna

Yeah, because the longer you live, the more likely the market will crash. The longer you live, the more likely you'll take out too much money. The longer you'll live the more likely inflation will decimate your purchasing power. The longer you live the more likely you're going to need long-term care. What I tell the people is this. Look, if you retire when you're 65, and you drop dead when your 68, it doesn't matter if the market crashes 10,000 points. It doesn't matter if inflation was 15%. It doesn't matter if you were drawing 12% a year. It doesn't matter if you forgot to buy long-term care insurance. You didn't a life long enough. But if you live to be 75, 80, 85, 90, it's all those other risks that will wipe you out. So, of all the research, I can find from the smartest PhDs in the world who study retirement said this: "To retire successfully you must take longevity risk off the table." Well, guess what, stocks can't do that. Bonds can't do that. Mutual funds can't do that. Real estate can't do that. Only some form of an annuity can do it. A lifetime income annuity, you might call it an SPIA, a deferred income annuity, you might call it a DIA, or an income or withdrawal benefit rider from a fixed index variable annuity, that is it. Those are the only things that can take longevity risk off the table. So, you've got to put an annuity in that portfolio. And then people don't understand that the reason is that you put it in the portfolio is to take longevity risk off the table. Why? Because only a life insurance company can issue an annuity. Why? Because only a life insurance company sells life insurance to be on the other side of that risk. See because an insurance company is on both the life insurance and annuity side, that if people die too soon or live too long, they can neutralize themselves. Because if this person lives to be 115, that's okay, that person over there died when they were 60, so they're protected against both longevity and mortality risk because they're on both sides of the risk. Your banker can't do it. Your broker can't do it. Only the life insurance industry can protect people from dying too soon or living too long. That is a mathematical, scientific, and economic fact.

Mark Miletello

I'm so pumped up right now. I read your book on a plane. I got off to give a speech. I believe it was the most powerful speech of my career. And in the speech, I held up your book and ... it was a study group of the top leaders in my company. I held up your book, and I said, "You have to find your voice right now." One of the things that you said in your book, Paychecks, and Playchecks, you said, "We are at different times." And I think one big message that you give is to wake up. Wake up and look around. And I think that's the hardest thing for me, was for me, is to find that voice like you have found, like Van's found, like others succeeding and ... Let me go back to one little point. You had mentioned annuities that pay for life, and you know what, I get caught up or have been caught up, with clients talking about rates of return. You get completely away from that, and you focus on the longevity. The income stream for life and the value and importance of that, and I really had some of my first discussions where I said that the interest rate doesn't matter. Can you dive a little deeper into how reps should consider ...? Because I've got to be honest, I've sold tons of annuities, tons of life insurance, I've helped protect families and clients; but I've never really until, I think this week, saw the value and importance of what you say and how you use these products to protect people in these uncertain times.

Tom Hegna

I often talk about the payout rates of annuities. And if you look at SPIA OR a DIA, the guaranteed payout rates for those things are very high. They're 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 percent guaranteed for the rest of the client's life. And I always tell advisors, I say someday if you talk about payout rates the client's going to ask you, "Okay, but what is my interest rate?"  I got two ways to answer that. Number one, "What would you like it to be?" Because the insurance company does not set the interest rate on an income annuity. They set the payout rate. It never sets the interest rate the client by how long they live. So, I say, "If you want a higher interest rate, just live longer. If you want a higher interest rate than that, live longer than that." That's what I love about these products. You get to set your own interest rate. I hope you set it very high. But the second way I handle it is this. It doesn't matter. Just like you said, it doesn't matter what the interest rate is. When somebody asks you "what is the interest rate", in their mind they think this is an investment that they want to compare to their Merrill Lynch or their Schwab or their Edward Jones investment. And what I would say that an income annuity is not an investment. It is a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of your life. So, if I went on an appointment with that advisor, these are the exact words that would come out of my mouth. "I'd say Mr. and Mrs. Client, congratulations, you're now retired. In retirement, you're going to need a paycheck. Now at our company, you can have your paycheck guaranteed or non-guaranteed, which do you prefer?" Most people say guaranteed. "We can guarantee it for your life or for both of your lives, which would you prefer?" Most of them say for both of our lives. So, I repeat it back. "What I just heard you say is you would like a guaranteed paycheck for the rest of both of your lives." Yes. That's what this does. And there's no other product in the world you can buy that will give you a higher guaranteed paycheck for the rest of both of your lives. So, it doesn't matter what the interest rate is. You want a paycheck. You want it guaranteed. You want it guaranteed for the rest of both of your lives. That's what this does. Merrill Lynch, Schwab, E-trade, they can't do that.

Mark Miletello

So, I've got my checkbook out. I feel like I need to pay you for that.

Tom Hegna

I mean, let's keep it simple, and let's have fun in the appointments too. I have fun when I'm in front of people. I get in front of more people probably than almost all your listeners combined. So, I'm in front of people every day and I have fun with it. [crosstalk 00:21:36

Mark Miletello

Absolutely, and I'm glad I asked that question because I needed the answer to that, and I would imagine a lot of my agents and my listeners as well needed the answer to that. And so, that'll help us find our voice in competing again what interest rate is at, and just spot on. I obviously brought up "Paychecks and Playchecks" several times. That book is just filled with so many nuggets. I've highlighted the entire book, and it's going to be part of my process going forward and training, and teaching, and reading, and learning myself. I'm excited to hear a little bit more about, "Don't Worry Retire", but before that, what inspired you to write "Paychecks and Playchecks"?

Tom Hegna

Here's kind of what happened. I was still at New York Life at the time when I was asked to speak at the top of the table for MDRT, which is a huge honor. This is a top of the table event of MDRTs, the top of the top of the top, but I didn't know that MDRTs, that to test their speakers because it's a smaller group. It's the highest group, but there are only about 500 people. If you do good there, then they'll ask you to domain platform at MDRT, the general session, where there's six, seven thousand. But anyway, I had a presentation and they said you got have a name for this thing, you got to have a name for this. And we talked about it and said what about Paychecks and Playchecks. I said, "Oh, that's a great name." So, we titled my talk "Paychecks and Playchecks". Well, it was a huge hit, and then I did MBRT the next year in Vancouver. It was a huge hit. I didn't have a book. And that's killer. You're on the main platform at this big thing. I didn't have a book. Everybody said, "You've got to have a book." So, I sat down and I wrote the book and then what we did is we took my "Paychecks and Playchecks" talk from MDRT and we broke it out into chapters, and then we built up the chapters. I put in all the knowledge that I'd learned over the years and that was "Paychecks and Playchecks". And it was a foundational book. It sold over two million dollars. I mean less than one percent of books ever sell a million dollars. That sold over two million and "Don't Worry, Retire Happy" has now sold over a million. So, it's kind of cool. I got two books in the top one percent of all books ever written, but it was I wrote it out of my heart, you know. It was really all the knowledge and all the words and language. Because I tell people this, people think this is a knowledge business. I've got news for them. This is not a knowledge business anymore. You give me an iPad and the internet for 15 minutes, I can figure out anything I need to figure out. This is not a words business. This is a language business. This is a questions business, and this is a stories business. And my books are full of words, language, questions, and stories that are powerful. I always tell people if you don't have your ... People say all the time you got the words, you got the questions, you got the stories. You can borrow the stories, borrow the words, borrow the ... that's what I did when I was brand new. I listened to audiobooks every single day. I watched tapes of the Kinder Brothers so I could close business the way the Kinder Brothers taught me how to close business. I can handle objections the way they taught me to handle rejections. And what I did was learn the words, language, questions, and stories of the top producers in this industry 30 years ago and those words, language, questions, and stories made me millions of dollars. And now I've got the words, language, questions, and stories for this retirement income market and people can make millions of dollars off of that, but they're worried about spending 35 bucks on an audiobook or something. It's crazy. You've got to invest ... and I'll tell you this. The best investment you'll ever make is not in stocks or bonds or bitcoin, the best investment you'll ever make is an investment in yourself. That will make you the most millions.

Mark Miletello

It's perfectly said. I believe that what you've said it's not that ... you look at my upbringing and my challenges and I had Richard Weylman on the show last week and the struggles that he came through. It's about finding your voice and telling a story. And like I said in a speech, I used several things that you've said from "If a dollar was a second, what would a trillion dollars mean?" And things like that. It's just stories and I held up the book and I said, "You have to learn these stories because you don't have to make them up." They've already ... someone's already paved that way and you learn from the Kinder Brothers. We all have learned and quoted from someone that has inspired us, so thank you for putting that together. You know, I've got some self-published books and maybe that's what I need to do, record myself speaking and quit trying to sit down and write everything out. That's some good advice. But you know what? I work with a young team, but even us veterans we've, keeping with the theme of football, we've all had fumbles; and so, looking back, do you ever think about some mistakes that you could avoid, or you would have avoided for these new agents that are.

Tom Hegna

Well, kind of my best advice for new people is activity. I say an app a day keeps depression away. Look, this is a business is where you go way up, and you go way down emotionally. You go out and you close a million-dollar sale and you're on top of the world, "Oh, man I just sold the biggest case I ever did." And then two days later you get a call, and he says "Well, I talked to my brother-in-law. He says it's stupid. Please cancel that." Or, the guy got declined, or he changed his mind, or whatever. And now you're down and the depths of depression, and then you write another case and you go up here and then something bad happens, and you go down here. So, what got me through the storms, because I went up and down terribly. My first, in my first year, was very hard, but what I found is the more activity I had, then I could weather it. See if I got 12 applications in, and I lose one no big deal. If I got one application in, and I lose one, that's a life-threatening event. So, I started trying to see three people a day and then once I started doing that I saw five people a day. And then I would see seven people every day, and if you're seeing five to seven people every day, I promise you, you'll get through it. An app away keeps depression away. I tried to write at least one app a day, and my record I think was 13 apps in one day and I routinely get five or six in a day, that was not uncommon at all. I never had a blank week my entire time as a producer. I'm kind of proud about that because it was drilled into me activity, activity, activity. And so, there are only three ways to increase your production. See the people. See the people. See the people. So, I would encourage new advisors, see people face to face every single day.

Mark Miletello

Well, we can dive more into that. That could be its own separate show, but the good news on this show is you get the repeat of a first down. You get a do-over, so you're starting over, Tom, you know how tough today is, you're starting over right now, how do you grow a successful practice? I think you've given us a lot of these nuggets already, but I'm just going to point blank ask you because this is what a new agent wants to hear. What do you hear today?

Tom Hegna

I think you've got to build your frontal as full as you can, and what I mean is that you've got to be on social media. You've got to be on Facebook. You've got to be on Twitter. You've got to be on LinkedIn. I guess Instagram for millennials and all these guys. But you've got to be on social media. You've got to network and get as many people into your funnel. I don't care how well you know them. Go to Chamber of Commerce, get everybody's business card, put them in your funnel, connect with everybody you can. Because what you want to do it early in your business now you want to get thousands of people in your funnel of social media and then you want to watch your social media because you can learn a lot about people. Oh, we got engaged. That'd be a perfect person to call. Oh, we just got married. Oh, my dad died. My mom died. We had a baby. All that's on social media. Well, those are all life events that people need to buy more life insurance and they need to roll their 401K or they need to do something, right? So now today we can know when all these things are happening. When I was an agent, we didn't know. We had to buy a baby list from the paper or something and we'd get it like six weeks later or something, or the obituary list and you got go through there and figure whose parents they are. I mean, really, seriously? Now you've got all these tools and then there are marketing people that I'm not the marketing guy, but there are marketing people that can help you do campaigns and do things to get more leads. And then I would encourage people to do seminar selling. It does work. It's not dead. People think it's dead. It's not dead. I do seminars every single day almost. And they fill the place with three, four, five hundred people. If you're giving great content, great content, people will come. The number one producer I work with is a guy down and Florida. He does about a million a month in commission, a million a month, okay? And he runs educational seminars, no food; he brings them in two or three a day, does two or three days a month, he brings in top speakers, he said all the money I used to spend on restaurants now I put into my speakers. And he just is known as the educational place for all these retirees and they bring their friends, their neighbors, their brothers, their sisters. There's no selling done at these seminars. They are just educational workshops. He brings me in. He brings in Mary Beth Franklin, and he brings Moshe Maleski in, and he just educates people in the community. And guess what, they do a lot of business on him.

Mark Miletello

I bet. Well, activity is the key, we all know that, and you're right. There are almost so many places to go to create an activity that one doesn't know where to go. I think sometimes they're just looking around at all the different places and they don't know which one to choose. But you said get out there, get involved, and everyone watches it, make contacts because one thing you and I know that it's about timing more important than anything. You can call me today and discuss an annuity and a year and a half from now might be the right time to discuss that annuity. So, in this industry what I've found is when I was born there wasn't a big sign at the hospital that said Welcome into the world, Mark Miletello, natural born insurance salesman or financial services agent. No one's born, you know, you practice, rehearse, study, and so whether you find yourself successful or not, I believe activity is the key and timing, as well, is the key and with social media, we can hit that timing a lot better than we did just culling obituaries.

Tom Hegna

It's a numbers game, right? So, you want to have lots of numbers in your circle. As many as you can, even if you don't know them well. Then it's a timing thing, and then you've got to have the skills. So, it's really three things. It's numbers, it's timing, and it's skilled. And so, if you have the skills if you have the words, the language, the questions, and the stories and you know somebody who's right for talking to and you have enough of those people every day you've got people to go see every day. Just stop by. Hey, I saw you had a baby. We have a bib in our office, and it's just, you know, give them something. We used to hand out road atlases. I don't know what you hand out anymore, but just something you could give them, or bring them a little present, bring them some chocolates. I don't know what but get in front of people who it's the right time to talk about things and build a relationship with them and then help them. Do what's in their best interest, and they'll refer people to you.

Mark Miletello

Wonderful. Well, Tom, it's the future. It's the year 2027. This is maybe one of the toughest questions I'm going to ask you because this is on the minds of all of us with everything going on around, but also technology the future. What will the industry look like in ten years and how do we fit in, how do we stay relevant?

Tom Hegna

Well, there's all kinds of people worried about that, and I know on the P&C side they're worried that amazon.com is going to have a little thing you just plug into the USB port and you drive from here to the store and it just charges 12 cents to your prime account for insurance. And then you drive across to California and it's $2.42 for insurance. That your insurance will charge you by the number of miles that you drive, and it will be automatic, and you won't have to worry about it. That's was the P&C people are worried about. I think for life insurance, annuities, and long-term care investments you know these robot advisors, yeah, that's fine, let's see how that all works when that market crashes 50 percent. At the end of the day, people need help from people. People trust people. And I think they're going to need a financial person to walk them through this. The average person doesn't spend enough time learning about this stuff and what they hear, they hear from Ken Fisher or Susie Orman or Dave Ramsey. People are giving them opinions, not facts. And that's why I say stick with Tommy. Tommy's got the facts, and the facts beat opinions 100 percent of the time. And so, if we can just present them mathematical, scientific, and economic facts these are irrefutable. These are not opinions. I can win every argument with Ken Fisher because he's dead wrong. You know when he says, "Oh, anything you can do with an annuity, you can do better elsewhere." That's a lie. You know what I'm going to do? This week, I'm going to write an open letter to the SEC, because what I think he is doing is almost criminal and he's leading people astray and for the SEC and [Senator 00:34:37 to allow that kind of stuff to happen ... I'm just going to write an open letter and I'm going to clearly expose him for what he's doing. He's not doing good things. So, I got math and science behind me. He's got his opinion. Let's see how that works for him when that market crashes 50 percent.

Mark Miletello

Well, what you're saying is, we can't predict what the next 10 years are going to be, but we can sure be prepared. We can be an advocate for our clients. So, thank you for protecting us, and doing those things. You're right. Some of it is ... I don't even know what to say about some of the things that I hear, but one thing that I keep going back to that's one of the most powerful things that I've read in your book, and that's, "I talk about facts." I'm going to use that if you don't mind. I'm going to steal that when I'm talking to clients is that you know let's not look at all the opinions out there, let's talk facts.

Tom Hegna

Facts win, every time.

Mark Miletello

That's right. So, look, I would like to keep you for hours on end. I know your time's valuable, and thank you for sharing with us. We've gotten so much already. I'd like to ask you a hundred more questions, but give us your professional recommendations. How do we get started following you? What steps do we take to find, maybe this is a two-pronged question, but how do we get started to find a voice like you have found? Is part of that following you? What can we do?

Tom Hegna

Well, look, I know you got some great training, and you said Van was one of your mentors. Van and I are good friends. We've done a lot of work together. Joe Jordan was one of my mentors, as were the Kinder Brothers, as were some of the top producers back in the day, the Ben. And now Mark Feldman has a great book, "Man on a Mission", all about life insurance. Great life insurance questions. But if people want to follow me, I'm at tomhegna.com. I'm easy to find. If you google my name a million things will pop up. I got free videos on YouTube they can sure watch. I've got a subscription service called Tom Hegna on Demand where I literally put my entire brain online, sorted by video clips, three to eight minutes. over ten hours sorted by life insurance, annuities, long-term care, questions, sales ideas, handling objections, social security, all that stuff. So, my entire brain is there available 24 hours day, seven days a week. And I say what if you spent 10 minutes a day there, 15 minutes a day, or what. How good would you be in three months or six months or nine months? There's also a coaching site where, let's say, they get to the appointment at ten minutes early. They get on the iPhone. They go to the coaching site, and a video of me pops up. I say, tell me about this appointment. Is your client single or married? They put single. How old is this person? She's 70. Once you hit those two buttons, a video of me pops up. Okay, so you're going to an appointment with a 70-year-old widow. Here's going to be her key questions. Here's how I would answer those. Here's going to be her objections. Here's how I would answer those. Here's the product you're going to want to use. Here are the questions you want to ask her. And I coach you for 5, 10 minutes before you go on your appointment. The next day you're going on an appointment with a 45-year-old couple. You hit married, 45, and I coach you totally different than I did for the 70-year-old widow. Now that's all available online. We've got package deals on our podcast. So just go to tomhegna.com. I'm easy to find.

Mark Miletello

Well, the financial investment is ridiculous. That's a no-brainer. What we must do, and what I've tried to teach and install in the ones that I mentor is the time investment. And it's not that much. It could be 5, 10 minutes. It could be a ride on an airplane. But we must take what you're handing us, and we got to pass it down to the next generation. We got to build upon that, so that's what this podcast is for, is to reach out. With all the noise out there, it's getting hard to find who's the real deal. And you are the real deal, and I'm going to continue to follow you. I appreciate the advice on man on a mission. I didn't know that one. I'll look that one up. I hope that everyone out there listening to this will immediately go to your website. You are one of the top one or two that I recommend following, as well as you mentioned, Gary Kinder, the Kinder Brothers, and Van Mueller as well. So, thank you for being a guest on the show, and thank you for all you do.

Tom Hegna

Thank you, Mark. Great being with you.

Mark Miletello

Absolutely, and you can follow me on markmiletello.com. If you like what you hear on the show, go to iTunes and rate and review, and you'll help others find us.