Description:It's Pride Month, and we couldn't think of a better time to bring back one of our most beloved episodes. Sara Cunningham — founder of Free Mom Hugs — first joined Jen back in 2018, when she was a Christian mom from Oklahoma City who had just started showing up at Pride parades with a handmade sign and a button. A lot has happened since then.

What began as one mom extending her arms to strangers has grown into a global movement. Free Mom Hugs now trains advocates, lobbies legislatures, and shows up year after year for LGBTQIA+ people whose own families walked away. Sara hasn't just built an organization — she's built a lifeline.

In this conversation, Sara and Jen revisit the journey that started it all: how Sara moved from the church to the Pride parade without losing her faith, what it meant for her son Parker to come out into a family still finding its footing, and how the stories of people who had lost everything — their families, their churches, their sense of belonging — fell into her arms and changed the course of her life.

They also talk about what it takes to turn personal pain into structural change, and why showing up — physically, politically, and relationally — for the LGBTQIA+ community matters more than ever right now.

This one is worth every minute. Enjoy this encore conversation with our beloved friend, Sara Cunningham!

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “No one has searched for God more than the Gay Christian.” – Sara Cunningham

• “The first drag show that I ever went to, when I crossed the threshold, I really thought lightning might strike. But, I realized these are beautiful people raising money for homeless LGBTQ youth. And I was so moved by that. I had it totally wrong. I believed a lie that kept me from some of the most beautiful experiences I’ve had in my life.”  – Sara Cunningham

• “I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• LGBTQIA MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/parenting-lgbtqia-teens-tweens

• Mama Bears - https://www.realmamabears.org/ 

• FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spring-back-series-living-proudly-with-sydney-hatmaker/id1258388821?i=1000523761007 

• Kai Shappley’s Website - https://kaishappley.com/ 

• Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference - https://freemomhugs.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.ViewPage&pageId=571 

• Kimberly Shappley’s Website - https://ourfaithintransition.com/ 

• Glennon Doyle’s Website - https://momastery.com/ 

• How We Sleep at Night: A Mother’s Memoir by Sara Cunningham - https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Sleep-At-Night/dp/1499725388 

• Good Friend with Jamie Lee Curtis ft Sara Cunningham - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/sara-cunningham/id1573809537?i=1000556513469 

• HRC Oklahoma - https://www.hrc.org/news/p3?state=oklahoma 

• ACLU Oklahoma - https://www.acluok.org/ 

• Freedom Oklahoma - https://www.freedomoklahoma.org/ 

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://freemomhugs.org/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/freemomhugs/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/freemomhugs

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/freemomhugsinc

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5BP-GtZ7HFPUu3PpTQMOGw

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If you grew up on Christian music in the '90s, there's a good chance Testify to Love wasn't just a hit song—it was the soundtrack to a season of your life.

Three decades after Avalon first released the iconic anthem, Jen sits down with original Avalon member Michael Passons, longtime Avalon vocalist Melissa Greene, and country music star Ty Herndon to talk about the remarkable re-release of a song that has found new meaning for a new generation.

But this isn't simply a conversation about music. It's the untold story behind one of CCM's most beloved songs.

Michael shares the painful reality of losing his place in Avalon after coming out as gay. Melissa reflects on the faith journey that transformed her understanding of inclusion and belonging. Ty opens up about his own path through addiction, recovery, faith, and finally living fully and truthfully as himself. Together, they revisit the song that connected millions of listeners and explore why its message of love, acceptance, and human dignity feels more relevant now than ever.

Filled with laughter, tears, hard-earned wisdom, and more than a few moments that will leave you reaching for the tissues, this conversation is a beautiful testament to friendship, healing, and the courage it takes to live loud.

Whether Testify to Love has been on your playlist for thirty years or you're hearing its story for the first time, this episode is a powerful reminder that love's truest testimony is not who it excludes—but who it embraces.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “I lost my community, my family, my career, all within a couple of seconds. That’s a lot to process.” - Michael Passons

• "The people I loved and the fullness of their humanity butted up against my theological positions. I had to ask myself: Do I keep creating fences and becoming more exclusive? Or could it be that my views of God, humanity, and the world need to change?" – Melissa Greene

• "What I've noticed in the lives of people who have allowed themselves to evolve and change their mind is that that process pulls us toward an expansiveness that is just magical." - Jen Hatmaker

• “You don't live in the church, the church lives in you. You have an opportunity right now to start your own church and decide who sits at your table. No one can kick you out of your own church.” - Ty Herndon

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Avalon - https://www.avalonthegroup.com/

• Carman - https://carman.org/

• Stephen Curtis Chapman - https://store.stevencurtischapman.com/

• Kirk Franklin - https://kirkfranklin.com/

• Michael’s Instagram Reel - https://www.instagram.com/reels/DY6_JF6BDyO/

• Dottie Rambo - https://www.dottierambo.net/

• Testify to Love - https://music.apple.com/us/song/testify-to-love-feat-melissa-greene/1893435396

• Testify to Love video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7IPvr6b8s
  

Melissa’s Links:

Website - https://www.melissagreene.net

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/melissagreene

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/melissagreeneofficial/

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWQpP8gHH7vew99LcQJs3Og

Substack - https://melissagreene.substack.com/p/testify-to-love

Michael’s Links:

Website - https://michaelpassons.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/michaelpassons/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/michaelpassonsmusic

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@michaelpassonsmusic

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@michaelpassonsmusic

Ty’s Links:

Website - https://www.tyherndon.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tyherndonofficial/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tyherndonofficial

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/OfficialTyHerndon

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tyherndonofficial

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We were supposed to talk about Deacon King Kong. We did not. 

When Jen sat down with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist James McBride to discuss the Jen Hatmaker Book Club's May selection, the conversation took a hard left turn into something far richer — a wide-ranging tour through one of the most remarkable lives in American letters. 

James opens up about a scrappy and troubled adolescence in Brooklyn, getting straightened out in the heat of the Louisville, Kentucky summers, and the music that quite literally saved him. He reminisces about touring Europe as a young musician and playing saxophone alongside Stevie Ray Vaughan at Antone's in Austin, traveling with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour as a young journalist, surviving the Boston Globe's newsroom in the 1980s, writing songs for Anita Baker and Grover Washington, working with Quincy Jones, and getting dressed down by Harry Belafonte in a writers' room. Along the way, he reflects on race, art, faith, forgiveness, music, storytelling, old cars, and why the best writers are simply the people paying closest attention. He also shares what gives him hope about America right now — and it might surprise you.

Of course, we touch on Deacon King Kong—its unforgettable characters, humor, and heart—but this conversation became something even bigger: a portrait of the life experiences that shaped the storyteller behind the book.

Come for the book club discussion. Stay for one of the most fascinating conversations Jen has had in a long time.

Oh, and Deacon King Kong is a masterpiece. You should absolutely read it. 

Thought-provoking Quotes:

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmcbrideauthor/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JamesMcBrideAuthor/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “I didn’t grow up wanting to be a writer. We were just concerned about eating.” – James McBride★ “Years and years of playing $50, $75, $100 gigs prepares you for a life of good struggle.” – James McBride★ “People are trying to do their best. Just because you don’t agree with them, it doesn’t mean they’re not trying to do their best.” – James McBride★ “We have work to do and I'm proud of those of us who are doing it. And for those of us who are not, maybe their children will come to it or maybe they won't. The struggle is a beautiful thing.” – James McBride➢ Miracle at St. Anna (Spike Lee movie) - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/miracle-at-st-anna/➢ The Good Lord Bird: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4eJBPDc➢ The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4d74l0a➢ Deacon King Kong: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4uLm4QP➢ The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4tv1nYc ➢ Parting the Waters: America in the King Years 1954-63 by Taylor Branch - https://amzn.to/49Nt3Av➢ Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOopIz2aHN5knpp-Y-iOHWJBAWnpj_HQTJ-kU2uedz33q6e3xyjrb

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:He's back — and this time he brought a memoir. Comedian Kevin James Thornton returns to For the Love, and if you thought you knew Kevin from his hilarious auto-tuned TikToks and wired-headphone microphone bits, this conversation will lovingly surprise you.

Kevin's debut memoir, Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat, traces his journey from performing as a literal sin clown on a youth group mission trip in 1990s New York City, to grinding it out on the stand-up circuit in LA, to touring one-man shows across the US, Canada, and eventually the world — Helsinki, Stockholm, Paris — all the way to present-day Cincinnati, where he's navigating a major life upheaval with nothing but his 13-pound black cat Comet and an extraordinary amount of hard-won self-awareness.

In this conversation, Kevin opens up about what it actually took to write a book — including the two-week-long Airbnb retreat where he mostly just slept and watched TV because his attention span had been completely obliterated — and what surprised him most about recording the audiobook (hint: he cried, more than once, and they left it in). He talks about the strange, freeing moment he realized he no longer needed to prove himself to anyone, and how that shift was the very thing that made his work finally land. And he reflects on the beautiful, sometimes maddening truth that life doesn't end so much as it just keeps beginning again.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• "Even when I was living in my car, I was still dreaming about the next creative project...I was like that when I was 20. And I'm like that today." – Kevin James Thornton

• "I didn't realize that I went out into the world constantly trying to prove myself, that I was someone without Jesus. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I can see it so clearly looking backward now." – Kevin James Thornton

• "We sort of hand over this personal power to other people. It takes a long time to recognize and unlearn that." – Kevin James Thornton

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Brick - https://getbrick.com

• Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/

• Sarah Bessey’s Substack - https://sarahbessey.substack.com/

• Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat by Kevin James Thornton - https://amzn.to/4mVYPAJ

• Laughing Toward The Light: Comedian James Thornton Finds Himself at 50 - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-55/laughing-toward-the-light-comedian-james-thornton-finds-himself-at-50/

• Create with Kevin (watercolor videos) - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX-UksfK1pG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

• Enneagram assessment - https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

• The Comedy Store - https://thecomedystore.com/

• Big Baby audiobook - https://amzn.to/4eClfVL

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.kevinjamesthornton.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kevinjamesthornton

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kevinjamesthornton1

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNQbKNgL8bcuH8z4pzh9flw

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kevinjamesthornton

Substack - https://kevinjamesthornton.substack.com/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty.

In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they’ll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it’s awkward) can be both healing and hilarious.

Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives.

• Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he’s ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride

• He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they’ve ever had to tell themselves

• And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt

• “One of the hardest things that I had to deal with telling myself is that it's okay to forgive yourself and to move forward. You deserve things in life, although maybe you haven't been the best person at times.”– Tyler Merritt

• “I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt

• “I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/

• Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs

• Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6

• This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj

• Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/

• Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo

• I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf

• Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/

• Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL

• A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd

• A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/

Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every family has its legends, the stories told and retold until they become gospel. Family Lore is a new weekly podcast that revisits those tales with curiosity, digging into the history behind each one to uncover what's true, what's myth, and what it all means. Enjoy this preview, then catch full episodes wherever you listen: https://link.pscrb.fm/f0281/FLFD

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:There are some books you read with your whole body. Strangers by Belle Burden is one of those books.

Belle was married for twenty-one years. Three kids. A life that, from the outside, looked like everything you're supposed to want. Then on the seventh day of the pandemic lockdown, a stranger left her a voicemail — and by the next morning, the man she thought she knew was gone.

Belle is a former Davis Polk attorney, a descendant of John Jay, and the granddaughter of legendary socialite Babe Paley. She was raised in a world where women simply did not speak publicly about their husbands' transgressions. So she broke the chain — first in a viral New York Times Modern Love essay, then in her New York Times bestselling memoir. And now she's here with Jen.

This conversation is everything. The night it all fell apart — the dinner, the mopped floor, the voicemail, the packed bag by morning. The myths we hand women about divorce and who gets to carry the shame. The money piece that nobody wants to talk about but everybody needs to hear. And the strange, hard-won truth that the most devastating thing that ever happened to you might also be the thing that finally gives you back to yourself.

Jen and Belle are in an accidental sisterhood — two women who wrote the book about the thing that broke them, because it turns out a million other women are walking around carrying the same broken thing in silence. This one is for every woman who has ever stood in a kitchen in her pajama pants and felt the floor shift beneath her feet.

If you can't yet imagine what's waiting for you on the other side of the hardest thing, let Belle and Jen show you.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.belleburden.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/belleburden/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “It's really connected me to humanity to hear people's very private stories, their very private feelings, and that they feel safe sharing them with me because I think I was so raw and open and honest about my own.”-- Belle Burden★ “Writing about pain is really something that we really don’t see enough of.” -- Belle Burden★ “It took me years to let go of the matronly woman in the pajama pants who he wasn’t attracted to anymore and to replace her image in my mind with something else.” -- Belle Burden★ “People really want to find the red flags because they want to know that this ending was predictable. I think that makes people feel safer because this is a scary story. It feels totally impossible and then also very possible. I think people really want those red flags.” -- Belle Burden★ “I never could have thought that that horrible thing could happen to me and I could end up in a place where I'm happier, where my life is more interesting, that I feel so much more myself and it's very hard to envision that when you're in it.”-- Belle Burden★ “I think when things kind of fall apart, you just are forced to become more relaxed because nothing is going as you intended it to go.” -- Belle Burden➢ Strangers: A Memoir of Marriage by Belle Burden - https://amzn.to/42M5rbQ➢ New York Times piece | Was I Married to a Stranger? - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/30/style/modern-love-married-to-a-stranger.html➢ TIME | The Danger of Surrendering Your Financial Independence in a Relationship - https://time.com/article/2026/04/17/the-danger-of-surrendering-your-financial-independence-in-a-relationship/➢ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4wC9N2Z➢ Buy Strangers from your local bookstore or McNally Jackson bookstore - https://mcnallyjackson.com/book/9780593733318

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Some episodes we plan. This one you created.

This week, Jen and Amy are stepping back and letting the people they do this whole thing for take center stage. It's Listener Voicemail Day — and honestly? It might be our favorite kind of episode. Because nothing reminds us why this community exists quite like hearing your actual voices.

So we're bringing your calls to you — from all kinds of moments and all kinds of women.

Jessica calls in to reflect on our Awake Collective episode and where she is at in her own healing process, and feeling the loneliness that can settle in when you're deep in the work. Jen and Amy reflect on so much of the wisdom of our incredible Awake Collective panel – Kate Bowler, Nedra Tawwab, Emily Nagoski, and Kobe Cambell, whose words echo here: healing isn't supposed to feel good — it's supposed to feel like disruption.

Sara brings it home with a call about raising young girls. Between them, Jen and Amy are parenting nine young adults, so they have thoughts.

Amanda found Awake on vacation and came home having discovered something she didn't know she was missing — an invisible community of women who just get it.

Deborah calls in from Canada with a story that will stop you in your tracks. A devastating and beautiful parallel between her journey losing her husband to terminal brain cancer and Jen's own story — and the breathtaking grace of how, by God's grace, we do recover.

Tania reflects on the Wilderness and Wonder series and a recent trip to the mountains that cracked something open in her — the awe, the connection, the reminder that this podcast is its own kind of sacred space.

And Diavianne closes things out talking budgets and spreadsheets, which sounds ordinary until you realize it's actually about power — the freedom and confidence that come from truly owning your financial life.

Jen and Amy respond to each one with the honesty and tenderness that only comes from doing this long enough to know: you are never as alone as you think you are.

This is the connective tissue. This is why we show up every week.

Have something you need to say out loud? Head to JenHatmaker.com/Podcast, find the Send Voicemail button, and leave us your story. We're listening.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “There’s something comforting about not feeling alone in something. I borrow courage from other people who say ‘me too’.” – Jen Hatmaker

“Some things only work for us for a season. It’s okay to change things up. There’s not one right way to do things.” – Amy Hardin

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• The Wake-Up Call: What Changes in Midlife—and Why You’re Not Imagining It - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-wake-up-call-what-changes-in-midlife-and-why-youre-not-imagining-it/

• Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker - https://amzn.to/4whxU6N

• The Emotional (and Sometimes Chaotic) Life of Teenagers with Dr. Lisa Damour - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-52-for-the-love-of-calming-the-chaos/the-emotional-and-sometimes-chaotic-life-of-teenagers-with-dr-lisa-damour/

• Good Bones by Maggie Smith - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/89897/good-bones

• Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4neIlUp

• Jen’s Finance MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/me-course-finance
  

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Some conversations are so good, they deserve a second life.

As we've been building out our Chosen Family series — exploring what it actually takes to find, keep, and nurture the people who truly see you — we kept coming back to this tender conversation because it was resonant then but it hits differently now.

Dr. Thema Bryant is a psychologist, author, professor, ordained minister, and former president of the American Psychological Association. Her books Matters of the Heart and Homecoming have resonated deeply with women navigating the beautiful, complicated work of belonging — and her clarity on what it means to truly come home to yourself is exactly the foundation this series needed.

In this conversation, Jen and Amy dig into:

• Why midlife can feel isolating even when you're surrounded by people — and what's really going on beneath that loneliness

• How to grieve friendships that have run their season while making genuine room for new ones

• The difference between performing friendship and actually being emotionally available for it

• Why our wellness matters more than our loyalty — and what it looks like to stop sacrificing yourself in the name of showing up for everyone else

• Practical tools like writing vows to yourself and how to build community from scratch when one was never ready-made for you

Because here's what we keep coming back to: you cannot truly choose people if you haven't first chosen yourself. This conversation is the starting place.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• When I observe someone making a polite but clear boundary, I respect it. I’m impressed. – Jen Hatmaker

• Can you come to the place where you admit, I miss myself? And myself is not my labor. Myself is not my role. Myself is a living soul and one of the things that feeds my soul are my friendships but those got neglected because I was told that to be a good leader or to be a good mom, I had to deprioritize the things that nourished me. – Dr. Thema Bryant

• If a community is not ready-made, something for you to join, it’s something for you to create. – Dr. Thema Bryant

• Our wellness is more important than our loyalty. – Dr. Thema Bryant

• If you have the tendency of picking people who don’t pick you, you’re not emotionally available. If you were emotionally available when there was nothing flowing back to you, you would shift. But if you fear intimacy, closeness, or being seen and known, you will continue to pursue that which is fleeing you, because it is safer. This is true in friendships and romantic relationships. – Dr. Thema Bryant

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/40XMql6

Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole, Authentic Self by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/4hVYQ4c

The Homecoming Podcast with Dr. Thema Bryant - https://soundcloud.com/dr-thema-bryant-davis

Guest’s Links:

Thema’s website - https://drthema.com/

Thema’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dr.thema/

Thema’s Twitter - https://x.com/drthema

Thema’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ThemaBryantDavis

Thema’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxpb1ZdNd6M99Fhaw09H81Q

Thema’s Podcast - https://soundcloud.com/dr-thema-bryant-davis

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:There are artists whose music marks a moment—and then there are the ones whose songs stay with us for a lifetime.

This week, Jen sits down with beloved returning guest Amy Grant to talk about her long-awaited new album, a project shaped by time, reflection, and a life that’s been fully lived. After a significant health crisis and a slow, intentional return to music, Amy is creating from a place that feels more open, more grounded, and more honest than ever.

Together, they talk about what it means to come back to yourself after everything changes, how creativity evolves over decades, and why the stories we tell later in life often carry a different kind of weight. Amy shares how her songwriting has shifted, the role of memory and perspective in this new work, and what it looks like to keep making meaningful art in a season that feels both quieter and more expansive.

At the heart of both this album and this conversation is Amy’s quiet but steady intention to be a witness—to tell the truth about a life as it’s being lived, and to honor the people who have shown up along the way. From deeply personal songs shaped by love and loss to collaborations with her husband, Vince Gill, and her daughters, this record reflects not just where Amy is now, but who has helped her get here.

This conversation is thoughtful, unhurried, and full of the kind of wisdom that only comes from living a long time and staying curious along the way.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

• “Many times our limitations create a new path for us.” – Amy Grant

• “The great thing about being 65 is that you can be a witness to everyone and to yourself.” – Amy Grant

• “In my sixties, I’ve realized this is a different landscape and I've got to have to welcome myself differently.” – Amy Grant

• "I just think there is something that happens in your sixties that you just stop fighting it and you welcome it." - Amy Grant

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Amy Grant - The Me That Remains - https://30tgrs.ffm.to/themethatremains

• Vince Gill - https://www.vincegill.com/

• Tom Douglas, songwriter - https://www.instagram.com/tomdouglasmusic

• Mac MacAnally - https://macmcanally.com/

• Brandi Carlile - https://www.brandicarlile.com/

• Three Wishes on NBC - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460685/

• Jimmy Gentry, WWII veteran - https://www.franklintn.gov/Home/Components/News/News/11185/83

• Amy Grant - Baby, Baby - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnAD2Tb-SE8

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.amygrant.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amygrantofficial/

Twitter - https://x.com/amygrant

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/amygrant/

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZSki0usQ84d5cVkiWxy2UQ

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@amygrantmusic

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, we’re reading a novel that doesn’t just tell a story—it inhabits one.

Jen sits down with author Maddie Mortimer to talk about Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies, a breathtaking and formally inventive debut that explores what it means to live inside a body that is changing, remembering, and, ultimately, letting go. At the center is Lia, a woman living with terminal cancer—but this story unfolds as a chorus, with voices that include her family, her own inner world, and even the cancer itself.

Together, Jen and Maddie explore the deeply personal roots of the novel, including Maddie’s own experience of losing her mother, and how that grief shaped the book’s emotional precision. They talk about why she chose to move beyond a traditional narrative and instead capture the feeling of illness—the disorientation, the fractured sense of time, and the way memory lives not just in the mind, but in the body.

They also tap into the book’s striking structure—the visual and sensory journey it creates for readers—and how that imaginative form is now being adapted for the stage, bringing the story full circle to Maddie’s theatrical roots.

In this conversation, we consider what it means to listen to the body as a narrator, how love shows up in the smallest moments, and why stories like this invite us to pay closer attention to the life we are living right now.

This one is tender, surprising, and quietly unforgettable.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Guest’s Links:

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maddiemortimer/

Twitter - https://x.com/MaddieMortimer

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “For me, the writing process was much more about thinking of cancer and the way that it moves through language and how language can metastasize on the page and the rhythm of this incredibly hyperactive virus, this illness kind of consuming a body, the way that a dark thought could consume a mind.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “I'm quite a restless reader and I think I get bored quite quickly. What I look for in books is that immediacy of how exciting a sentence is or how funny or moving or strange it is.” – Maddie Mortimer ★ “So much of the process of putting words on a page and writing fiction, specifically, is that you surrender yourself. I think it's less about me feeling like I know anything or have anything to say, but more about removing myself so that you feel like you're listening to the world and to the people that you've met, and the impressions that you, your body, whatever, have absorbed.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “The realm of the playground is the page. It’s where anything goes.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “There's something really special about a group of people in a room that are willing to give their time to writers reading their words. It’s got that kind of religious, congregational quality to it.” – Maddie Mortimer➢ Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies by Maddie Mortimer - https://amzn.to/3NRIPCC➢ Gilead: A Novel by Marilynne Robinson - https://amzn.to/4dFVYJC➢ Booker Prize: Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies - https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/books/maps-of-our-spectacular-bodies➢ Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOoriPvTDl3MAspLOwF2sMjqu3tmHzwmOex7CKgSLNzOlfBPmpUWb

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

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