In 2017, Joel Miller came on Ditching Hourly episode 33 to talk about his recent switch to value pricing. Nine years later, Joel and his identical twin brother Alan still run The Sky Floor as a two-person shop. They do all the client work themselves, their average client has been with them for eight years, and they haven't hit a famine cycle in a long time, so they're not hungry for leads. Best of all, Joel has gone from working 80-hour weeks and making “a hilariously tiny fraction” of what he makes now to working normal hours and turning off his notifications at night and on weekends.

• 00:00 - Meet Joel Miller
• 00:46 - The Sky Floor Then and Now
• 02:00 - The Why Conversation in Practice
• 06:12 - Building Client Lifetime Value
• 08:50 - The Client Who Came Back
• 10:48 - Value-Based Monthly Retainers
• 12:26 - Scaling Without Headcount
• 16:03 - Indirect Word of Mouth
• 18:08 - What Keeps Clients for a Decade
• 25:25 - Spotting Hidden Opportunities
• 29:01 - Think Like a Business Owner
• 37:22 - Curiosity and the Entrepreneurial Spirit
• 41:53 - People Over Profits
• 44:51 - Never Stop Asking Why
• 48:36 - Where to Find Joel

Joel Miller is the co-owner of The Sky Floor, a digital problem-solving agency he runs with his identical twin brother Alan. They started the company about 18 years ago as a web design shop in the Chicago area and now handle everything from websites and LMS systems to Google Ads and CRM replacements. Joel and Alan do all the client work themselves and have built long-term relationships averaging eight years per client. Joel appeared on Ditching Hourly episode 33 in 2017 to discuss his early experiments with value pricing. Try his free Capacity Tax tool to see whether a client is blocking your next growth move.

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Software entrepreneur, author, and investor Rob Walling joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain why faster software development does not remove the need to validate a software product idea before building it.

We talked about the future of SaaS in the age of AI, the 2-20-200 validation framework, customer conversations, finding ideas, turning client work into a product, starting marketing early, choosing an ideal customer profile, competitive research, and the advantages of vertical vs orthogonal vs horizontal product positioning.

• 00:00 - Meet Rob Walling
• 01:28 - Idea to Traction
• 02:45 - Who Builds SaaS Now?
• 05:18 - SaaS in the Age of AI
• 09:23 - Validate Before You Build
• 16:29 - Better Customer Conversations
• 17:47 - Finding and Choosing Ideas
• 20:46 - Turning Client Work into SaaS
• 26:24 - Market from Day One
• 28:53 - Find and Refine Your ICP
• 32:09 - Competitive Research and Positioning
• 35:48 - The DNA of a Great SaaS Business
• 38:26 - Vertical, Horizontal, and Orthogonal SaaS

Rob Walling is a software entrepreneur, author, and investor. He hosts Startups for the Rest of Us, a podcast he said has run for 16 years, and co-founded TinySeed, where he invests in SaaS bootstrappers. He started Drip in 2012 and sold it in 2016. Idea to Traction is his sixth book and revisits the early stages of software entrepreneurship. Learn more and pre-order the book at Idea to Traction.

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Experience designer and BRC Imagination Arts founder Bob Rogers joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain how to create experiences that change behavior instead of merely entertaining. His new book, Deep Story, is a practical guide to doing exactly that.

We talked about defining the change before choosing tools, looking past requested deliverables, finding the emotional connection between a brand and its audience, starting with the heart, and turning information into action.

• 00:00 - Meet Bob Rogers and Deep Story
• 01:57 - Lessons from Disneyland's Magic Shop
• 03:57 - It's All About Them
• 07:36 - The Audience Is the Instrument
• 10:27 - Failing Into the Right Career
• 12:24 - Define the Change Before the Tools
• 16:51 - Look Past the Requested Deliverable
• 20:11 - Hire the Team, Not the Idea
• 22:41 - Use Phases and Set Enduring Goals
• 24:53 - Find the Shared Emotional Trigger
• 27:55 - A Brand Is What the Audience Says It Is
• 32:09 - SCAD's Kitchen Table Story
• 35:35 - Start with the Heart, Then Focus
• 38:32 - Information Is Not Transformation
• 42:35 - Books and Where to Find Bob

Bob Rogers is the founder of BRC Imagination Arts, where he has spent decades creating visitor experiences for corporations and museums. He began his career demonstrating magic at Disneyland and later developed concepts for films at Walt Disney Imagineering. His new book, Deep Story, presents a practical approach to building experiences that make an emotional connection and prompt action. Learn more at BRC Imagination Arts.

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

NetSuite data migration consultant Paul Giese joined me on Ditching Hourly to share how triple specialization helped him build a highly referable, fixed-price consulting business.

Paul explains how his accounting background, NetSuite expertise, and data-migration focus combine into a defensible niche, plus how specialization supports referrals, delegation, and value-based fixed fees.

• 00:00 - Introduction
• 00:20 - Paul's Background and Business
• 01:01 - From Accounting to Entrepreneurship
• 03:21 - Finding the NetSuite Migration Niche
• 06:02 - The Benefits of Specialization
• 12:07 - Becoming Easy to Refer
• 16:00 - The Three-Part Expertise Moat
• 20:48 - The Opportunity for Specialized Firms
• 24:10 - Moving from Hourly to Fixed Fees
• 29:08 - The Freedom of Fixed Pricing
• 31:08 - Building Trust and Reducing Risk
• 36:08 - Contractors, Delegation, and Quality
• 40:13 - Pricing by Value Instead of Volume
• 42:56 - Testing the Ceiling on Price
• 47:36 - Lessons and Closing Thoughts

Guest Bio

Paul Giese is the founder of Optimal Data Consulting, a firm specializing in data migration services for companies implementing NetSuite. With an accounting background from Baylor University and experience in Big Four public accounting, Paul has helped more than 100 clients migrate their data. Connect with Paul on LinkedIn or on his website.

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Growth consultant and author of The Damn Rules, Nick Richtsmeier joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about why internet-based inbound marketing systems have stopped working, aren't coming back, and what might work instead.

• 00:27 Nick's Background and Work
• 01:10 Why the Internet Is Toast
• 03:09 What Distribution Means Now
• 04:36 Inbound as Attention Arbitrage
• 07:56 The Attention Economy Is a Casino
• 13:37 Five Major Disruptions
• 22:36 Trust and Attachment as Scarcity
• 25:34 Friction as a Load-Bearing System
• 30:10 Restoring Trust Through Human Contact
• 35:01 Selling When People Are Scrolling
• 39:19 Notice Meetings and Relationship Networks
• 41:47 Why Friction Polishes Ideas
• 50:37 The Damn Rules and Closing Thoughts

Nick's bio:

Nick Richtsmeier is the creator of Trust-Made Growth® and the author of The Damn Rules: How Vulnerability, Inefficiency, and Love Liberate Leaders from the Trustbroken Economy, a strategist and cultural navigator helping founder-led, relationship-driven firms build durable businesses in the age of AI extraction and from the wreckage of the trustbroken economy.

Nick's links:

• Personal » https://nickrichtsmeier.com
• Book » https://nickrichtsmeier.com
• Newsletter » https://damnrulesbook.com
• LinkedIn » https://linkedin.com/in/nickrichtsmeier
• Podcast » “Damns Given with Nick Richtsmeier” available on all major platforms

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Double-unicorn founder (WP Engine and A Smart Bear), Jason Cohen, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the ideas behind his new book, Hidden Multipliers.

We talked about using AI as a facilitator rather than an answer machine, choosing ideal customers, differentiating a consulting business, how AI is changing SaaS and software work, and why writing can help you think in public.

Chapters

• 00:00 - Introduction
• 01:56 - AI Skills as Facilitators
• 04:16 - Choosing Your Best Customers
• 09:42 - Building Strategy Around Yourself
• 13:40 - Defining a Market
• 22:29 - Problems, Alternatives, and Categories
• 27:00 - Differentiating Consulting Services
• 33:58 - The Fear of Closing Doors
• 38:02 - Who Hidden Multipliers Is For
• 41:14 - AI and the Future of SaaS
• 49:33 - Why Expertise Still Matters
• 53:24 - Distribution and Fast Followers
• 59:13 - Worldview as Differentiation
• 61:03 - Writing to Think
• 68:28 - Where to Find Jason

Jason’s Links

• The Book » https://shop.hiddenmultipliers.com/
• The Skills » https://skills.asmartbear.com/
• Jason’s Blog » https://longform.asmartbear.com/
• Jason’s Podcast » https://smartbearlive.transistor.fm/
• Jason’s LinkedIn » https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncohen/

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Thought leadership expert Bill Sherman joined me on Ditching Hourly to discuss how experts can scale their ideas to create impactful thought leadership. 

Bill shares insights from his extensive experience in helping individuals and organizations codify and amplify their ideas.

In this episode, we delve into the nuances of thought leadership, from defining it to exploring business models and the importance of a focused target audience. 

Bill also discusses the impact equation and how to effectively communicate ideas to create lasting influence.

• 00:00 - Introduction to Bill Sherman
• 00:19 - Journey into Thought Leadership
• 01:51 - Defining Thought Leadership
• 05:41 - Emerging Thought Leaders
• 08:44 - The Thought Leadership Handbook
• 13:09 - Business Models of Thought Leadership
• 16:49 - Target Audience Importance
• 21:49 - Licensing and Certification
• 25:09 - Alternatives to Writing a Book
• 33:39 - Impact Equation
• 43:47 - Final Thoughts

Guest bio

Bill Sherman is the COO of Thought Leadership Leverage and lead author of The Thought Leadership Handbook. For more than twenty years he's helped executives, authors, and experts take their ideas to scale — and he co-hosts the Leveraging Thought Leadership podcast, now past 700 episodes.

• Website » https://aha-moments.com/
• Book » https://thoughtleadershiphandbook.com/
• LinkedIn » https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-sherman-aha-moments/
• Podcast » https://thoughtleadershipleverage.com/thought-leadership-podcasts/

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Pricing strategist Shannon Mattern joined me on Ditching Hourly to discuss how to present pricing options in a project proposal based on the mindset of the buyer: investment-minded, expense-minded, and hustle-minded. 

In this episode, we dive into Shannon's Package Matrix method, a framework she developed to offer clients different levels of service and pricing options. We explore how to implement this strategy, manage client expectations, and ensure timely payments.

• 00:00 Introduction
• 00:25 Shannon's Background
• 01:24 Overcoming Pricing Challenges
• 02:24 Package Matrix Method
• 06:23 Implementing Package Matrix
• 10:58 Sales Process and Payment Terms
• 17:21 Handling Client Delays
• 20:58 Sales Cycle and Proposal Strategy
• 28:03 Presenting Proposals
• 39:51 Follow-up and Decision Deadlines
• 47:19 Final Thoughts and Resources

Shannon Mattern is a pricing strategist and the creator of the Package Matrix™ Method. She's also the host of the Profitable Web Designer and Anchor High podcasts, and founder of Web Designer Academy, where she helps women web designers move from undercharging to premium pricing. You can connect with Shannon at https://shannonmattern.com or on LinkedIn at https://linkedin.com/in/shannonmattern

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

”Expertise whisperer” Wes Wheless joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about turning corporate expertise into a solo consulting business. We talked about his new book, The Expert's Privilege, how corporate professionals can recognize transferable expertise, why visual IP helps consultants explain their work, and what to do before making the leap from employee to independent consultant.

Chapters

• 01:35 - From Corporate to Consulting
• 03:48 - Pivoting Toward Solo Consultants
• 06:16 - Daily Email, Authority, and Visual IP
• 11:46 - The Expert's Privilege
• 18:36 - Why Corporate Experts Undervalue Their Skills
• 23:23 - Excavating Your Expertise
• 27:18 - Finding Your Zone of Genius
• 32:44 - From Self-Examination to Market Validation
• 35:30 - What to Do Before You Leave Corporate
• 40:22 - A Book Is FOR Someone
• 44:23 - Writing the Book With Support
• 52:06 - Launch Strategy and Early Results

About Wes

Wes Wheless is an "expertise whisperer," founder of Develop My IP, and creator of The Lightbulb, a daily email for corporates-turned-consultants.

After two consecutive tech layoffs, Wes traded a 20-year corporate career spanning consulting, enterprise, and startups for a solo practice helping experts turn their knowledge into IP, frameworks, and "intellectual headshots."

Wes holds business degrees from The Wharton School and Kellogg School of Management and lives in Seattle, Washington. The Expert's Privilege is his first book.

Links

• Resources & Services: weswheless.com
• The Expert's Privilege: wesbook.com
• Buy on Amazon: buywesbook.com
• The Lightbulb email: lightbulbemail.com
• Fen Druadin, Book Midwife: fendruadin.com

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Author, financial advisor, and former management consultant Brian Herriot joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about pursuing time freedom before financial freedom.

Brian and I talk about his new book Time Freedom, the difference between time freedom and financial freedom, how flexible work can bridge the gap, and what he learned from using early readers, workshops, and hybrid publishing to turn his ideas into a book.

Chapters

• (00:00) - Brian's Time Freedom Story
• (02:58) - Why Brian Wrote the Book
• (05:30) - Choosing Hybrid Publishing
• (09:53) - Building the Business Behind the Book
• (12:16) - Time Freedom vs Financial Freedom
• (16:46) - Making Nine Months Cover Twelve
• (19:47) - Remote Work and Flexible Work
• (23:18) - Who Can Actually Do This?
• (27:17) - Early Readers and Draft Feedback
• (31:51) - Tools for Testing a Book
• (33:32) - Testing Ideas Before Writing
• (36:00) - Writing the First Draft
• (40:26) - The Time Freedom Framework
• (46:52) - Writing a Better Ending
• (50:44) - Counterintuitive Money Advice

Resources We Mentioned

• Time Freedom preorder page
• Time Freedom Calculator
• Time Freedom Podcast
• Brian Herriot on LinkedIn
• Write a Must-Read by AJ Harper
• AJ Harper
• Page Two Simplified
• Mike Michalowicz
• Mike Michalowicz on The Business of Authority
• Write Useful Books / Rob Fitzpatrick
• Help This Book
• Heroic Public Speaking
• Charlie Hoehn on The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish

Guest Bio

Brian Herriot is the founder of Time Freedom and the author of Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work and Money to Create a Life You Love Now. He is an author, speaker, registered investment advisor, financial advisor, business consultant, and co-host of The Time Freedom Podcast. His professional background includes management consulting roles at Accenture and Point B, as well as a director position at UCSF Health. Learn more at https://timefreedom.life/.

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Business development director and Raleigh commercial real estate enthusiast Jed Byrne joined me on Ditching Hourly to walk through the entire process of self-publishing his first book, Start Small Selling, from idea validation to Kickstarter funding to final production.

We cover testing your book idea with real money, writing a first draft in 35 days, running a Kickstarter campaign to fund professional editing, finding and working with developmental editors, designing a book cover on a budget, and publishing through KDP and Lulu.

Chapters

• (00:00) - Who Is Jed Byrne?
• (03:19) - The Hyper-Local Newsletter
• (07:59) - Why Write a Book?
• (11:41) - Testing the Idea
• (14:05) - The Writing Process
• (21:56) - The Kickstarter
• (31:04) - Building the Editing Team
• (36:23) - The Timeline
• (45:49) - Working with a Developmental Editor
• (52:40) - Designing the Cover
• (57:26) - Publishing with KDP and Lulu
• (01:00:00) - Start Small, Start Now

Guest Bio

Jed Byrne is a business development director at Barnhill Building Group, a North Carolina-based general contracting firm. Outside his day job, he runs Oak City CRE, a platform focused on Raleigh commercial real estate that includes a weekly Substack newsletter, a podcast, consulting, and his first book, Start Small Selling. You can reach Jed at [email protected].

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

People

• Jed Byrne
• Jed Byrne on LinkedIn
• Jonathan Stark
• Tim Ferriss
• Seth Godin
• Noah Kagan
• Rob Fitzpatrick
• Tucker Max
• Pat Flynn
• Chandler Bolt
• Tim Grahl
• Rochelle Moulton
• Corey Quinn
• Mike Michalowicz
• Derek Sivers
• Daniel Pink

Jed / Raleigh / AEC

• Oak City CRE
• The Top Five by Oak City CRE
• Dirt NC podcast
• Barnhill Building Group
• Start Small Selling Kickstarter
• Start Small Selling on Amazon
• Urban Land Institute
• ULI Triangle
• Jed’s book email from the episode - [email protected]

Books / Book-Building Resources

• Million Dollar Weekend by Noah Kagan
• The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick
• Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick
• Help This Book
• The Workshop Survival Guide
• The Scribe Method
• SelfPublishing.com / Self-Publishing School
• Reedsy
• Editorial Freelancers Association
• Chicago Manual of Style
• ISBNs / Bowker
• Atticus

Publishing / Production / Selling Platforms

• Kickstarter
• Amazon KDP
• Lulu
• Blurb
• Shopify
• Upwork
• Fiverr
• Otterpine
• Microsoft Word
• Canva
• Inkscape
• USPS Media Mail

Podcast / Episode References

• Mike Michalowicz on The Business of Authority

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Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET

Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them.

The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet.

Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs